May 21, 2025 • 27 mins
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What do you say when a friend confesses they’re struggling with pornography? Whether they admitted it directly or you discovered it by accident, knowing how to respond can feel overwhelming. In this honest and compassionate episode, Dr. Joe Beam and Kimberly Beam Holmes guide you through how to handle these conversations with empathy, truth, and clarity.
They discuss the spiritual, relational, and physiological effects of pornography and how to walk with someone you care about toward hope and healing. Whether you're supporting a friend or facing this struggle yourself, there is a way forward.
📌 Topics covered:
How to respond when a friend opens up about porn
Why porn affects both men and women
The impact on marriage and intimacy
The connection between faith, guilt, and behavior
Practical next steps and resources for accountability
If you're struggling in your marriage, don’t wait. Get our FREE resource: The 7 Steps to Rescue Your Marriage 👉 https://marriagehelper.com/free
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
In today's episode, we're going to be talking about
what you could do if you justhad a friend come to you and
tell you that they arestruggling with pornography,
which is a very common strugglethat many people have.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
So that's what we're diving into on today's episode,
or even if your friend didn'ttell you that you'd stumble upon
it.
You went and sat down to usetheir computer for a minute.
You saw the history, and so itmay be that the friend told you,
or it may be that you stumbledupon the fact and you looked at
your friend and say I see whatyou've been looking at here.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Either way, or it may be that they were bragging
about it.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
That's possible.
That's possible.
Or it might even be askingabout the good or bad of it,
like this is what I do.
Do you think this is a goodthing or a bad thing?
There are any number of waysyou could get into the
conversation.
The point is, once you're inthe conversation, what do you do
(00:54):
?
Now?
Don't assume that we're talkingjust about males.
I haven't seen the lateststatistics I haven't looked for
it actually but a couple ofyears ago it was like 40% of
internet porn users are female,and so there's a large
percentage of women that aredoing that as well.
And when I was teaching humansexuality at a university here
in Nashville, I would havepeople come up and talk to me
about that kind of problem, andfar more females than men.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Would come up at the end of the college class and
talk to you about that.
What would they say?
Speaker 2 (01:24):
They usually were feeling guilty and typically
something I had taught in thatclass that day would have
touched them or affected them insome fashion, and so they would
come up and say you know I'vebeen seeing some porn about, and
most of the females that did itwere not same gender
relationships in their livesthey were heterosexual but that
(01:45):
the primary form of porn thatthey looked at was female-female
.
Why do you?
Speaker 1 (01:51):
think that is.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
I think it could be for any number of reasons.
One is that they can convincethemselves they're still not
doing anything wrong if they'renot looking at a male and a
female Like, well, you know,that's fornication or whatever
word they might have for that.
And so therefore, if I don'tlook at that, I won't wind up
doing that and therefore I'mstill going to be a good girl.
And the other is that, becauseof the fact that women tend to
(02:16):
be more romantic, tend to besofter, and so they look at that
, but I'm thinking, more thananything else, it's so that they
don't wind up sleeping withguys.
Now, that's just my opinion.
None of them told me that, andtypically they would say it to
me with great guilt, like I didthat.
What do you think?
(02:36):
And the response would be Ithink you need to stop that.
Okay, how can I do that?
Well, our counseling centersright across the way over there.
They're trained to help you dothat.
Because I have to be verycareful what I talk to with my
students about as you understand.
So go over there and see them.
So guys, yes, but in my classesmore girls.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Would admit it at least.
Well don't you think it's alsomore socially acceptable among
males?
Speaker 2 (03:07):
That they do it.
Yes, as a matter of fact, I wastalking to a group of teenagers
several years ago at a churchand they invited me to talk to
them about sex.
And when I walked in the door,I got there a little early there
were three guys there a youngman, 15, two were 14, one was 15
.
And I told them hey, is thisthe right room?
I've come to talk about sextonight.
And they said, yeah, yeah, thisis the right room.
(03:28):
What would you like to know?
That's literally what they saidto me and I said you mean about
the church, about the class?
They said, no, about sex.
We know all about sex.
And I said where did you learn?
Well, you know, we watch it andtherefore we, we know that
everything is there is to knowabout it.
And these were three boys in avery conservative church who
(03:48):
were going to be in that classthat night, who regularly went
to that church Wow, anotherchurch.
I was talking to teenagersabout sex.
I was talking just to the boys.
They didn't bring the girls inbecause they thought maybe that
was too volatile, having thegirls and the boys in one room.
And I was talking to the boysand one of them spoke up and
said but you don't understand,it doesn't hurt anybody.
I'm not doing anything thatcauses anybody else a problem.
(04:12):
Therefore, it doesn't hurtanybody.
How can it be wrong?
To which I replied well, it'shurting you.
Well, no, it's not.
Let me tell you how You're goingto build a set of expectations
about what sex is going to belike from something that's not
real.
I mean even the true life pornstars in their real life, not on
that video.
(04:32):
They don't want to have sex allthe time, and so in that video,
it makes it look like anybodywants to have sex anytime,
anywhere, any position, anyoffice, et cetera, et cetera,
any number of partners, andyou're going to wind up with a
paradigm that that's what sex issupposed to be like.
So a few years ago I think itwas what year did we go to
(04:58):
Australia the first time?
2007.
Okay, so in 2007, I went to theWorld Congress of Sexual Health.
It was being held in Sydney,australia, and they were
actually teaching there thatinternet pornography is the
number one method of sexeducation in the world today,
and here's what they said.
They said therefore, it maytake a while, but therefore
marriage is doomed, and theirexplanation for that is because
(05:21):
of the fact that one of theparadigms that these people are
going to develop you know, boysand girls as they're growing up
and learning this way is aparadigm about sex that does not
occur in the real world.
It just doesn't.
And therefore these peoplebecause that's their expectation
, that's what they've beentrained for in their minds are
(05:42):
never going to be satisfied withone sex partner who's not
always ready to go to bed withyou, who's not always ready to
do anything you want to do,whenever you want to do it.
And they said, because of thefact that one partner then will
never be able to sexuallyfulfill these people that are
learning sex from internetpornography, people that are
(06:03):
learning sex from internetpornography, marriage is doomed
no-transcript.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
So what should someone say when you have a
friend, that either they've cometo you or you've somehow found
out that this is going on?
We've already established it'snot good.
It's not healthy for yourmarriage.
So now what?
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Well, it's not healthy for the person either.
For example, if a person'swatching pornography and
masturbating at the same time,typically what they will do is
they learn how to reach theirorgasm more quickly.
And the reason is so that theydon't get caught Like I don't
have hours and hours, what ifsomebody comes in?
If they're still a teenagerliving at home, what if mom
comes home, or whatever?
(06:48):
And so one of the results withmen again talking about the
negative effects with men isthat they tend to have problems
with premature ejaculation oncethey get married because they
have trained themselves toorgasm very quickly from the
pornography.
Another is that, because of theextra stimulus of this many
(07:09):
people on the screen doing thismany things on the screen that
often then, once they get pastthe new stage, once they reach
what is referred to as sexualboredom, that stage that with a
new partner for about after twoyears you tend not to be as
excited because you are so usedto each other.
(07:31):
It doesn't tend to betitillating and you're going to
actually become bored, Boreding.
Boredom, that's not a word.
Boring, it doesn't tend to betitillating and it can actually
become boring, boring.
That's not a word Boring, boring, boring.
That then what's going tohappen is they're going to go
back to pornography to find thatextra stimulation, or they're
(07:52):
going to seek sex outside thehome, or that they're going to
start developing sex problemswithin the marriage because
they're going to be demanding oftheir spouses things the spouse
doesn't want to do, becausethey're looking for that extra
exhilaration.
And so not only then can itaffect a male, particularly in
terms of premature ejaculation.
(08:13):
It can affect them in terms ofnot having any sexual excitement
with your spouse, andparticularly as you get older.
People on sex videos tend to bepretty young people, unless
there's some kind of a fetishgoing on.
And I've read one time this wasmany years ago that the average
age of retirement of a femaleporn star was like 27 or 28,
(08:38):
something like that.
And one of the reasons for thatis because of the fact that age
begins to affect you.
Things aren't as firm as theyonce were, and you may get
wrinkles, you may sag here orthere, et cetera, et cetera.
And of course, if you'remarried, then your spouse is
going to age every day.
And of course, if you'remarried, then your spouse is
(08:59):
going to age every day.
And so if you're having to havethat young, hard body to get
you excited, there comes a timewhen your spouse no longer can,
and therefore that sex life ispretty much over.
And if you have sex with eachother, it's not romantic, it's
(09:22):
just a need for some fulfillmentthat can be relatively fast,
etc.
And so all of those things canhappen to men.
What you're doing is you'resacrificing your future
physiologically, but you're alsosacrificing what the
relationship will be sexuallywith your spouse as you get
older, because both of you aregoing to age, both of you.
Now that's talking primarilyabout guys and so destroying
(09:43):
their future together, andthat's what I try to explain to
the teenagers.
Yes, it's going to hurt you,definitely going to hurt you,
and therefore you're sacrificingyour future for what you see as
a thrill now, now, if we want,and since these were churches
and therefore you're sacrificingyour future for what you see as
a thrill now, now, if we want,and since these were churches.
(10:04):
I would then go into, lesslikely, what the scripture says
that if you lust after a woman,you committed adultery with her
already.
That's what Jesus said inMatthew, and therefore you are
committing sin by lusting, andthat in the book of Job.
Job said that the way he keptfrom doing that is he made a
covenant with his eyes not tolook upon a maiden, and so if
you're watching this stuff, itcan't mess up your future.
(10:26):
And so what you're doing now isyou're finding something that's
physically stimulating ormentally stimulating right now,
that you're actually sacrificingyour future.
For Now I'll say something verysimilar to females if I'm
talking to them, but you mightunderstand that my conversations
with females about porn havetypically been okay.
(10:48):
Let's go get you to anothercounselor who can help you with
that.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
So you're a 35-year-old guy and your best
friend has come to you with this.
What are the next words out ofyour mouth?
Speaker 2 (11:06):
I understand Trying to make them feel guilty right
off the bat is not going to getany empathy.
It's not going to develop anykind of conversation.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
I understand.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
I understand the temptation of that.
Let's talk about what it'sdoing to you already, let's talk
about what it's doing to yourfuture, Okay, and so it would be
an understanding of what'shappening and then helping him
think about it in terms of hisspirituality.
Like, okay, if God really cannot only see what we do I'm
(11:39):
talking about, if you're talkingto a Christian friend, for
example and if God can also knowwhat we think, which you
believe if you ever praysilently that God can know
what's going on in your head,then God is seeing you, both in
that action and in your head,what you're doing.
And then you're going to turnaround and pray and you might
(12:02):
say, God, I love you so much,what a great relationship we
have, et cetera.
And God's saying but there'ssomething between the two of us.
Remember the story in the Bibleand I'm addressing this usually
to Christian guys where thisguy came to Jesus and he said
I've done all of these things,but I'm lacking something.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
The rich young ruler right.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
That's what he's typically referred as to.
What am I missing?
Remember what Jesus said to him.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
He said go and sell all your things.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Now, is that a command to all Christians?
Speaker 1 (12:35):
So he was telling him to get rid of the things in
between him and Jesus, there'sone thing between you and me,
and that's your wealth.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Therefore, go get rid of it.
But I've done this and I'vedone that and I've done that,
yeah, but you even admit you'remissing something, you're
lacking something, and what I'mtelling you is you can't have
that something as long as you'vegot something between the two
of us, it's got to go.
And so if I were trying to helpa guy with this, I would say
let's pray right here and let'sdedicate your computer to God,
(13:07):
let's dedicate your phone to God, let's dedicate your heart to
God, and et cetera.
If he says, well, what if Inever find the right person to
marry?
Well, let's pray about that too.
Lord, bring people in my lifethat will help me find the right
wife.
If that's what you need andthat's what you want, 1
Corinthians 7 says rather thanlusting, get married.
(13:28):
And so, if you need a sexualfulfillment, find a woman that
also has a good attitude aboutsex, because if you marry a
woman that doesn't want sex,that's not going to help you
very much and go ahead and getmarried, which is not the way
Americans look at it.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
No.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Because Americans typically tell their kids
something like Try it out, Goand see who.
All Well, first of all, they'llsay parents will say go get
your education, get a job, getsome money.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
Right.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
And then wonder why the kids have so much trouble.
Kids, young people, young men,young women have so much trouble
being celibate.
And then the world says just gofind somebody, go to the club,
go drinking, whatever they'realways out there and if nothing
else, go find a prostitute.
And in 1 Corinthians 6, whenthe apostle Paul and again I
(14:22):
realize I'm addressing this froma Christian perspective now, I
started off from sexology andnow I'm in the Bible In the end
of 1 Corinthians 6, he tells thesingle Christians to quit
having sex with templeprostitutes.
Now there were male templeprostitutes and there were
female temple prostitutes, andso some of the women were paying
those payholes to have sex withthem.
Some of the men, those womenand the money was all going to
(14:45):
support that false god to beginwith.
But what he said then isbecause when you have sex with
that person, you become one withthem.
He said but you've been boughtwith a price.
His argument and it's an impliedargument, but it's pretty
strong is that the Holy Spiritis in you.
If you join yourself to someonehe doesn't want to be part of,
(15:11):
then at least for that period oftime you have forced the Holy
Spirit to abandon you.
And that's why he starts rightback in the beginning of the
next chapter, chapter 7, andsaid but since there's so much
immorality, everybody needs toget married, and if you get
married, you shall fulfill eachother.
You must fulfill each othersexually so that you will not be
(15:33):
tempted because of your lack ofself-control.
And so the Bible answered toyou if you want to handle your
self-control when it comes tosex, get married to a partner
who is willing to be sexual withyou, not a partner who isn't,
but a partner who is, becausethe Holy Spirit inside of you.
There are certain actions youdo he will not be part of, and
(15:54):
if nothing else.
So if I'm holding a picture inmy head right now of some orgy,
or while I'm watching it on TVor whatever, and having that
orgy in my head and masturbatinginto it, et cetera, where's the
Holy Spirit?
You think he's in there, going,well, I'll just wait.
Or do you think he's sayingthis is not of God?
(16:16):
And so I think it becomes athing where you force God away
from you.
But I think there are a lot ofthings people do that force God
away from them, and so I wouldtry to help my friend.
That way, if a male and if itwere a female, I'd get a female
to help her.
Help her.
That way, all of this can behandled, because what you're
(16:36):
doing, you're ruining yourspirituality, you're ruining
your future, and all of that fora temporary thrill.
And maturity is the fact ofbypassing the short term for the
long term.
That's what maturity is allabout.
(16:57):
I'm not going to do that.
When it comes to eating, I caneat that Krispy Kreme right now
and it'll be delicious, or Icannot eat it and go for a walk
and lose some weight.
Well, the more mature person isgoing to do the second thing.
Okay, have I lost you throughall this rambling?
I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
No, what about the person who is married?
So they're already married.
Maybe their spouse doesn't know.
So then what's thatconversation with the friend?
Speaker 2 (17:23):
It's really kind of interesting If you look at the
research about that and again,it's been a while since I've
studied this stuff.
But the research is if they'rejust dating, the woman typically
doesn't mind.
It's like no, she doesn't haveanything, I don't have.
So if you want to watch that,go ahead and watch it, it
doesn't bother me.
But according to the sameresearch project, as soon as the
(17:45):
relationship becomes serious,like now, we're going to get
engaged or we start.
Maybe in an American culturewe're going to live with each
other, which I can explain.
Lots of reasons why that's bad.
But we're going to live witheach other or we're going to get
engaged or we're going to getmarried.
The woman's attitude, accordingto research, changes
dramatically.
(18:05):
So beforehand it was like boyswill be boys, and then, as soon
as there's a seriousrelationship, it's like you're
cheating on me.
You're not cheating with ahuman being that's coming in the
house, you're cheating withthat.
Well, actually you are, butthey're coming in through the
television or through the moviesor whatever and you're cheating
on me.
And so wives often get verydisturbed, almost always.
(18:28):
Now some wives will actuallywatch it with husbands, but what
they're doing is typicallydestroying their future, when
they get older.
Several years ago a ministercame to me.
This was back a long time ago,so long ago that the way to see
porn was you were going into alittle shop and you'd go in a
little room and pull a curtain,according to what he told me,
(18:49):
and you'd drop a coin in andfive minutes of porn would come
up for a quarter on your screen.
And then you'd drop anothercoin in and another five minutes
would come up of porn.
So this was back like in the70s.
It was a long time ago.
And he came to my office.
He felt so guilty about it hewas tearing him up.
(19:11):
He said I don't know how tostop.
I'll do anything to stop.
I said okay, tell your wife.
He said she'll kill me.
I said that'll stop you.
So he did.
He went and told her andapparently he did it very humbly
and she understood and sherealized that she had a little
(19:34):
bit of contribution to itbecause of the fact that she had
been avoiding him sexually I'mtoo busy, I'm too tired, I'm too
this, I'm too that and shebegan to realize, according to 1
Corinthians 7, he had sexualneeds.
So she started dressingdifferently I'm not talking
about in a lewd way, but muchnicer.
She'd actually put on hermakeup.
I very seldom saw her makeupbefore that, but she'd put on
(19:57):
her makeup and she'd dressnicely.
And they came to the office oneday to thank me, and so they
were fulfilling it all at home.
He had told her she worked withhim Rather than throwing him
out you terrible person.
She realized.
Well, 1 Corinthians 7 says Ican help with this by becoming
more sexual with you.
And so that's what she did andthat's what helped them.
(20:20):
So I would recommend tell yourwives Now.
You might be some guy listeningright now or some wife
listening right now.
I might be saying if I tell myspouse you don't understand, you
don't know how he or she is,they'll never forgive, they'll
never get past it.
Well, in that case you've gotto consider some other things.
But you need to tell somebodywho can actually help you, not
just somebody who may remember ayear from now to ask you how
(20:43):
you're doing.
Maybe a sex therapist or a sexcounselor.
But if you go see one of themand they say it's no big deal,
keep doing it, fire them, gofind somebody else.
Find a counselor or a therapistthat will help you work this
out where that you can be trueto your spouse and not
distracted by these other things.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
Yeah, or join a group like Celebrate Recovery,
something like that.
There's xxx churchcom.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
They do really well.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
That does a lot for accountability.
There's covenant eyes, which isa software that people can like
put on their phones and devicesand you can have it send, I
think, to an accountabilitypartner.
So there's a lot of options outthere.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
Let me just have a little bit slower again.
Sex helpcom that's current site, sex helpcom.
He's kind of the grandfather ofhelping this.
And then, as you said,xxxchurch that's XXX, not write
out XXX.
No, I'm sorry, xxxchurch dotcom, they've got a little good
help out there, but, like mostthings that have become almost
(21:52):
addictive, you're going to needsomebody who knows what they're
doing to help you stop it.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
And that would be the recommendation.
So if a friend comes to you andsays I'm struggling, the answer
is I understand, let's find away for you to stop doing this
and I'll hold you accountable.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
I'll hold you accountable.
Now, sexaholics Anonymous, if Iremember correctly, started
here in Nashville many, manyyears ago and I happen to know
some maybe more than oneministers who regularly attend
Sexaholics Anonymous and it hashelped them tremendously make
(22:35):
their lives the way they wantedit to be.
So what I'm saying is it canhappen to people who really want
to do right, really want to begood.
People can still be caught upin that.
But Sexaholics Anonymous NowI've been to Alcoholics
Anonymous because I had a bigstruggle with alcohol several
years ago, but I've never beento Sexaholics Anonymous.
But I hear it's a 12-stepprogram.
That's really really very goodand if you're afraid to go on
(22:58):
your own, you can probably lookthem up on the internet, find
out the closest group to you andhopefully they'll have some
kind of a contact person thereand you can contact him, because
if you're going to go, you'renot going to go mixed gender,
not to Sexaholics synonymous,but contact him or her, as the
case may be, and say I'm reallykind of afraid to come or
(23:19):
ashamed to come or apprehensiveabout coming.
You know, can you help me and Idon't know about them?
Maybe you can just ask yourbest buddy to go with you the
first time and he or she can gowith you the first time.
I know, an alcoholic synonymous,that when you come to what they
call the first time and he orshe can go with you the first
time.
I know in Alcoholics Anonymousthat when you come to what they
call the closed meeting, you'resupposed to be an alcoholic but
(23:40):
there are so many people outthere admitting themselves to be
alcoholics you typically canfind somebody who will go with
you.
Sexaholics Anonymous I'm notsure.
I would just ask I'm afraid tocome.
Can my buddy come with me thefirst time?
And my guess is they're goingto say yes, that's my guess.
A lot of resources.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Yeah, a lot of good resources.
Was there anything else we needto cover before we wrap the
episode?
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Well, isn't it true that when couples come through
our workshop we don't deal withsex addiction directly or
pornography directly in theworkshop, but in our membership
we have that seven and a halfhour program.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
The SPARK program for workshop graduates?
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Yeah, so if a couple is coming through the workshop
now it's not seven and a halfhours in one sitting, there's
actually 12 sessions and there'steaching.
There are actor couples who talkthings out and then every once
in a while I'll say stop thevideo and do this exercise in
the PDF that you have, and thenwhen you both finish that, come
(24:43):
back to the video.
I'll explain what your scoresmean.
And so for graduates of ourprogram, they can actually get
that and the one that was sevenand a half hours that they work
to together and talk about asthey go through it, which means
it's going to take more thanseven and a half hours.
But you do it in segments.
I went one segment, two,segment three, et cetera, and
(25:05):
and that can help a lot inopening up the conversations in
your marriage even hasinstruments in it where that if
one of you wants to do somethingsexually that the other one is
hesitant about doing, there's alittle profile thing you can use
there to help you figure outwhether you should try it or not
, based on what each of youfeels, and that's based in there
(25:27):
.
There's all kinds of goodthings in there.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Yeah, absolutely.
If you want to find out moreabout that or any other way that
we can help you at MarriageHelper marriagehelpercom.
Slash call Just go there, booka call.
Someone on our team will beable to answer your questions
and see if there's anything wedo.
That would be a great fit foryou, joe.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Yes, sorry that I talk so much in this workshop.
I'm sorry I talk so much inthis episode.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
You're the expert.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
But I'm the sexologist.
That's right.
And you might be thinking,isn't that your daughter?
Yes, and you're talking thisopenly in front of her.
Yes, so we have to tell themthe story before we go on Tell
them the story.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
I took his human sexuality class, the first one
you ever did.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
The first one I taught in university.
She was in it and the day I wasdiscussing a particular part of
the female genitalia, one ofthe other girls in class looked
at her and said is this likefreaking you out?
And you said At our house.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
This is dinner conversation.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
We've always been open and transparent.
Now we don't get vulgar, butwe've also always been open and
transparent.
Thanks for letting me rambleabout it.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
No, I think it's super helpful, Definitely needed
.
Remember there is always hope.
In today's episode, we're going to be talking about
what you could do if you justhad a friend come to you and
tell you that they arestruggling with pornography,
which is a very common strugglethat many people have.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
So that's what we're diving into on today's episode,
or even if your friend didn'ttell you that you'd stumble upon
it.
You went and sat down to usetheir computer for a minute.
You saw the history, and so itmay be that the friend told you,
or it may be that you stumbledupon the fact and you looked at
your friend and say I see whatyou've been looking at here.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Either way, or it may be that they were bragging
about it.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
That's possible.
That's possible.
Or it might even be askingabout the good or bad of it,
like this is what I do.
Do you think this is a goodthing or a bad thing?
There are any number of waysyou could get into the
conversation.
The point is, once you're inthe conversation, what do you do
(00:54):
?
Now?
Don't assume that we're talkingjust about males.
I haven't seen the lateststatistics I haven't looked for
it actually but a couple ofyears ago it was like 40% of
internet porn users are female,and so there's a large
percentage of women that aredoing that as well.
And when I was teaching humansexuality at a university here
in Nashville, I would havepeople come up and talk to me
about that kind of problem, andfar more females than men.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Would come up at the end of the college class and
talk to you about that.
What would they say?
Speaker 2 (01:24):
They usually were feeling guilty and typically
something I had taught in thatclass that day would have
touched them or affected them insome fashion, and so they would
come up and say you know I'vebeen seeing some porn about, and
most of the females that did itwere not same gender
relationships in their livesthey were heterosexual but that
(01:45):
the primary form of porn thatthey looked at was female-female
.
Why do you?
Speaker 1 (01:51):
think that is.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
I think it could be for any number of reasons.
One is that they can convincethemselves they're still not
doing anything wrong if they'renot looking at a male and a
female Like, well, you know,that's fornication or whatever
word they might have for that.
And so therefore, if I don'tlook at that, I won't wind up
doing that and therefore I'mstill going to be a good girl.
And the other is that, becauseof the fact that women tend to
(02:16):
be more romantic, tend to besofter, and so they look at that
, but I'm thinking, more thananything else, it's so that they
don't wind up sleeping withguys.
Now, that's just my opinion.
None of them told me that, andtypically they would say it to
me with great guilt, like I didthat.
What do you think?
(02:36):
And the response would be Ithink you need to stop that.
Okay, how can I do that?
Well, our counseling centersright across the way over there.
They're trained to help you dothat.
Because I have to be verycareful what I talk to with my
students about as you understand.
So go over there and see them.
So guys, yes, but in my classesmore girls.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Would admit it at least.
Well don't you think it's alsomore socially acceptable among
males?
Speaker 2 (03:07):
That they do it.
Yes, as a matter of fact, I wastalking to a group of teenagers
several years ago at a churchand they invited me to talk to
them about sex.
And when I walked in the door,I got there a little early there
were three guys there a youngman, 15, two were 14, one was 15
.
And I told them hey, is thisthe right room?
I've come to talk about sextonight.
And they said, yeah, yeah, thisis the right room.
(03:28):
What would you like to know?
That's literally what they saidto me and I said you mean about
the church, about the class?
They said, no, about sex.
We know all about sex.
And I said where did you learn?
Well, you know, we watch it andtherefore we, we know that
everything is there is to knowabout it.
And these were three boys in avery conservative church who
(03:48):
were going to be in that classthat night, who regularly went
to that church Wow, anotherchurch.
I was talking to teenagersabout sex.
I was talking just to the boys.
They didn't bring the girls inbecause they thought maybe that
was too volatile, having thegirls and the boys in one room.
And I was talking to the boysand one of them spoke up and
said but you don't understand,it doesn't hurt anybody.
I'm not doing anything thatcauses anybody else a problem.
(04:12):
Therefore, it doesn't hurtanybody.
How can it be wrong?
To which I replied well, it'shurting you.
Well, no, it's not.
Let me tell you how You're goingto build a set of expectations
about what sex is going to belike from something that's not
real.
I mean even the true life pornstars in their real life, not on
that video.
(04:32):
They don't want to have sex allthe time, and so in that video,
it makes it look like anybodywants to have sex anytime,
anywhere, any position, anyoffice, et cetera, et cetera,
any number of partners, andyou're going to wind up with a
paradigm that that's what sex issupposed to be like.
So a few years ago I think itwas what year did we go to
(04:58):
Australia the first time?
2007.
Okay, so in 2007, I went to theWorld Congress of Sexual Health.
It was being held in Sydney,australia, and they were
actually teaching there thatinternet pornography is the
number one method of sexeducation in the world today,
and here's what they said.
They said therefore, it maytake a while, but therefore
marriage is doomed, and theirexplanation for that is because
(05:21):
of the fact that one of theparadigms that these people are
going to develop you know, boysand girls as they're growing up
and learning this way is aparadigm about sex that does not
occur in the real world.
It just doesn't.
And therefore these peoplebecause that's their expectation
, that's what they've beentrained for in their minds are
(05:42):
never going to be satisfied withone sex partner who's not
always ready to go to bed withyou, who's not always ready to
do anything you want to do,whenever you want to do it.
And they said, because of thefact that one partner then will
never be able to sexuallyfulfill these people that are
learning sex from internetpornography, people that are
(06:03):
learning sex from internetpornography, marriage is doomed
no-transcript.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
So what should someone say when you have a
friend, that either they've cometo you or you've somehow found
out that this is going on?
We've already established it'snot good.
It's not healthy for yourmarriage.
So now what?
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Well, it's not healthy for the person either.
For example, if a person'swatching pornography and
masturbating at the same time,typically what they will do is
they learn how to reach theirorgasm more quickly.
And the reason is so that theydon't get caught Like I don't
have hours and hours, what ifsomebody comes in?
If they're still a teenagerliving at home, what if mom
comes home, or whatever?
(06:48):
And so one of the results withmen again talking about the
negative effects with men isthat they tend to have problems
with premature ejaculation oncethey get married because they
have trained themselves toorgasm very quickly from the
pornography.
Another is that, because of theextra stimulus of this many
(07:09):
people on the screen doing thismany things on the screen that
often then, once they get pastthe new stage, once they reach
what is referred to as sexualboredom, that stage that with a
new partner for about after twoyears you tend not to be as
excited because you are so usedto each other.
(07:31):
It doesn't tend to betitillating and you're going to
actually become bored, Boreding.
Boredom, that's not a word.
Boring, it doesn't tend to betitillating and it can actually
become boring, boring.
That's not a word Boring, boring, boring.
That then what's going tohappen is they're going to go
back to pornography to find thatextra stimulation, or they're
(07:52):
going to seek sex outside thehome, or that they're going to
start developing sex problemswithin the marriage because
they're going to be demanding oftheir spouses things the spouse
doesn't want to do, becausethey're looking for that extra
exhilaration.
And so not only then can itaffect a male, particularly in
terms of premature ejaculation.
(08:13):
It can affect them in terms ofnot having any sexual excitement
with your spouse, andparticularly as you get older.
People on sex videos tend to bepretty young people, unless
there's some kind of a fetishgoing on.
And I've read one time this wasmany years ago that the average
age of retirement of a femaleporn star was like 27 or 28,
(08:38):
something like that.
And one of the reasons for thatis because of the fact that age
begins to affect you.
Things aren't as firm as theyonce were, and you may get
wrinkles, you may sag here orthere, et cetera, et cetera.
And of course, if you'remarried, then your spouse is
going to age every day.
And of course, if you'remarried, then your spouse is
(08:59):
going to age every day.
And so if you're having to havethat young, hard body to get
you excited, there comes a timewhen your spouse no longer can,
and therefore that sex life ispretty much over.
And if you have sex with eachother, it's not romantic, it's
(09:22):
just a need for some fulfillmentthat can be relatively fast,
etc.
And so all of those things canhappen to men.
What you're doing is you'resacrificing your future
physiologically, but you're alsosacrificing what the
relationship will be sexuallywith your spouse as you get
older, because both of you aregoing to age, both of you.
Now that's talking primarilyabout guys and so destroying
(09:43):
their future together, andthat's what I try to explain to
the teenagers.
Yes, it's going to hurt you,definitely going to hurt you,
and therefore you're sacrificingyour future for what you see as
a thrill now, now, if we want,and since these were churches
and therefore you're sacrificingyour future for what you see as
a thrill now, now, if we want,and since these were churches.
(10:04):
I would then go into, lesslikely, what the scripture says
that if you lust after a woman,you committed adultery with her
already.
That's what Jesus said inMatthew, and therefore you are
committing sin by lusting, andthat in the book of Job.
Job said that the way he keptfrom doing that is he made a
covenant with his eyes not tolook upon a maiden, and so if
you're watching this stuff, itcan't mess up your future.
(10:26):
And so what you're doing now isyou're finding something that's
physically stimulating ormentally stimulating right now,
that you're actually sacrificingyour future.
For Now I'll say something verysimilar to females if I'm
talking to them, but you mightunderstand that my conversations
with females about porn havetypically been okay.
(10:48):
Let's go get you to anothercounselor who can help you with
that.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
So you're a 35-year-old guy and your best
friend has come to you with this.
What are the next words out ofyour mouth?
Speaker 2 (11:06):
I understand Trying to make them feel guilty right
off the bat is not going to getany empathy.
It's not going to develop anykind of conversation.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
I understand.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
I understand the temptation of that.
Let's talk about what it'sdoing to you already, let's talk
about what it's doing to yourfuture, Okay, and so it would be
an understanding of what'shappening and then helping him
think about it in terms of hisspirituality.
Like, okay, if God really cannot only see what we do I'm
(11:39):
talking about, if you're talkingto a Christian friend, for
example and if God can also knowwhat we think, which you
believe if you ever praysilently that God can know
what's going on in your head,then God is seeing you, both in
that action and in your head,what you're doing.
And then you're going to turnaround and pray and you might
(12:02):
say, God, I love you so much,what a great relationship we
have, et cetera.
And God's saying but there'ssomething between the two of us.
Remember the story in the Bibleand I'm addressing this usually
to Christian guys where thisguy came to Jesus and he said
I've done all of these things,but I'm lacking something.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
The rich young ruler right.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
That's what he's typically referred as to.
What am I missing?
Remember what Jesus said to him.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
He said go and sell all your things.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Now, is that a command to all Christians?
Speaker 1 (12:35):
So he was telling him to get rid of the things in
between him and Jesus, there'sone thing between you and me,
and that's your wealth.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Therefore, go get rid of it.
But I've done this and I'vedone that and I've done that,
yeah, but you even admit you'remissing something, you're
lacking something, and what I'mtelling you is you can't have
that something as long as you'vegot something between the two
of us, it's got to go.
And so if I were trying to helpa guy with this, I would say
let's pray right here and let'sdedicate your computer to God,
(13:07):
let's dedicate your phone to God, let's dedicate your heart to
God, and et cetera.
If he says, well, what if Inever find the right person to
marry?
Well, let's pray about that too.
Lord, bring people in my lifethat will help me find the right
wife.
If that's what you need andthat's what you want, 1
Corinthians 7 says rather thanlusting, get married.
(13:28):
And so, if you need a sexualfulfillment, find a woman that
also has a good attitude aboutsex, because if you marry a
woman that doesn't want sex,that's not going to help you
very much and go ahead and getmarried, which is not the way
Americans look at it.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
No.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Because Americans typically tell their kids
something like Try it out, Goand see who.
All Well, first of all, they'llsay parents will say go get
your education, get a job, getsome money.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
Right.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
And then wonder why the kids have so much trouble.
Kids, young people, young men,young women have so much trouble
being celibate.
And then the world says just gofind somebody, go to the club,
go drinking, whatever they'realways out there and if nothing
else, go find a prostitute.
And in 1 Corinthians 6, whenthe apostle Paul and again I
(14:22):
realize I'm addressing this froma Christian perspective now, I
started off from sexology andnow I'm in the Bible In the end
of 1 Corinthians 6, he tells thesingle Christians to quit
having sex with templeprostitutes.
Now there were male templeprostitutes and there were
female temple prostitutes, andso some of the women were paying
those payholes to have sex withthem.
Some of the men, those womenand the money was all going to
(14:45):
support that false god to beginwith.
But what he said then isbecause when you have sex with
that person, you become one withthem.
He said but you've been boughtwith a price.
His argument and it's an impliedargument, but it's pretty
strong is that the Holy Spiritis in you.
If you join yourself to someonehe doesn't want to be part of,
(15:11):
then at least for that period oftime you have forced the Holy
Spirit to abandon you.
And that's why he starts rightback in the beginning of the
next chapter, chapter 7, andsaid but since there's so much
immorality, everybody needs toget married, and if you get
married, you shall fulfill eachother.
You must fulfill each othersexually so that you will not be
(15:33):
tempted because of your lack ofself-control.
And so the Bible answered toyou if you want to handle your
self-control when it comes tosex, get married to a partner
who is willing to be sexual withyou, not a partner who isn't,
but a partner who is, becausethe Holy Spirit inside of you.
There are certain actions youdo he will not be part of, and
(15:54):
if nothing else.
So if I'm holding a picture inmy head right now of some orgy,
or while I'm watching it on TVor whatever, and having that
orgy in my head and masturbatinginto it, et cetera, where's the
Holy Spirit?
You think he's in there, going,well, I'll just wait.
Or do you think he's sayingthis is not of God?
(16:16):
And so I think it becomes athing where you force God away
from you.
But I think there are a lot ofthings people do that force God
away from them, and so I wouldtry to help my friend.
That way, if a male and if itwere a female, I'd get a female
to help her.
Help her.
That way, all of this can behandled, because what you're
(16:36):
doing, you're ruining yourspirituality, you're ruining
your future, and all of that fora temporary thrill.
And maturity is the fact ofbypassing the short term for the
long term.
That's what maturity is allabout.
(16:57):
I'm not going to do that.
When it comes to eating, I caneat that Krispy Kreme right now
and it'll be delicious, or Icannot eat it and go for a walk
and lose some weight.
Well, the more mature person isgoing to do the second thing.
Okay, have I lost you throughall this rambling?
I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
No, what about the person who is married?
So they're already married.
Maybe their spouse doesn't know.
So then what's thatconversation with the friend?
Speaker 2 (17:23):
It's really kind of interesting If you look at the
research about that and again,it's been a while since I've
studied this stuff.
But the research is if they'rejust dating, the woman typically
doesn't mind.
It's like no, she doesn't haveanything, I don't have.
So if you want to watch that,go ahead and watch it, it
doesn't bother me.
But according to the sameresearch project, as soon as the
(17:45):
relationship becomes serious,like now, we're going to get
engaged or we start.
Maybe in an American culturewe're going to live with each
other, which I can explain.
Lots of reasons why that's bad.
But we're going to live witheach other or we're going to get
engaged or we're going to getmarried.
The woman's attitude, accordingto research, changes
dramatically.
(18:05):
So beforehand it was like boyswill be boys, and then, as soon
as there's a seriousrelationship, it's like you're
cheating on me.
You're not cheating with ahuman being that's coming in the
house, you're cheating withthat.
Well, actually you are, butthey're coming in through the
television or through the moviesor whatever and you're cheating
on me.
And so wives often get verydisturbed, almost always.
(18:28):
Now some wives will actuallywatch it with husbands, but what
they're doing is typicallydestroying their future, when
they get older.
Several years ago a ministercame to me.
This was back a long time ago,so long ago that the way to see
porn was you were going into alittle shop and you'd go in a
little room and pull a curtain,according to what he told me,
(18:49):
and you'd drop a coin in andfive minutes of porn would come
up for a quarter on your screen.
And then you'd drop anothercoin in and another five minutes
would come up of porn.
So this was back like in the70s.
It was a long time ago.
And he came to my office.
He felt so guilty about it hewas tearing him up.
(19:11):
He said I don't know how tostop.
I'll do anything to stop.
I said okay, tell your wife.
He said she'll kill me.
I said that'll stop you.
So he did.
He went and told her andapparently he did it very humbly
and she understood and sherealized that she had a little
(19:34):
bit of contribution to itbecause of the fact that she had
been avoiding him sexually I'mtoo busy, I'm too tired, I'm too
this, I'm too that and shebegan to realize, according to 1
Corinthians 7, he had sexualneeds.
So she started dressingdifferently I'm not talking
about in a lewd way, but muchnicer.
She'd actually put on hermakeup.
I very seldom saw her makeupbefore that, but she'd put on
(19:57):
her makeup and she'd dressnicely.
And they came to the office oneday to thank me, and so they
were fulfilling it all at home.
He had told her she worked withhim Rather than throwing him
out you terrible person.
She realized.
Well, 1 Corinthians 7 says Ican help with this by becoming
more sexual with you.
And so that's what she did andthat's what helped them.
(20:20):
So I would recommend tell yourwives Now.
You might be some guy listeningright now or some wife
listening right now.
I might be saying if I tell myspouse you don't understand, you
don't know how he or she is,they'll never forgive, they'll
never get past it.
Well, in that case you've gotto consider some other things.
But you need to tell somebodywho can actually help you, not
just somebody who may remember ayear from now to ask you how
(20:43):
you're doing.
Maybe a sex therapist or a sexcounselor.
But if you go see one of themand they say it's no big deal,
keep doing it, fire them, gofind somebody else.
Find a counselor or a therapistthat will help you work this
out where that you can be trueto your spouse and not
distracted by these other things.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
Yeah, or join a group like Celebrate Recovery,
something like that.
There's xxx churchcom.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
They do really well.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
That does a lot for accountability.
There's covenant eyes, which isa software that people can like
put on their phones and devicesand you can have it send, I
think, to an accountabilitypartner.
So there's a lot of options outthere.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
Let me just have a little bit slower again.
Sex helpcom that's current site, sex helpcom.
He's kind of the grandfather ofhelping this.
And then, as you said,xxxchurch that's XXX, not write
out XXX.
No, I'm sorry, xxxchurch dotcom, they've got a little good
help out there, but, like mostthings that have become almost
(21:52):
addictive, you're going to needsomebody who knows what they're
doing to help you stop it.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
And that would be the recommendation.
So if a friend comes to you andsays I'm struggling, the answer
is I understand, let's find away for you to stop doing this
and I'll hold you accountable.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
I'll hold you accountable.
Now, sexaholics Anonymous, if Iremember correctly, started
here in Nashville many, manyyears ago and I happen to know
some maybe more than oneministers who regularly attend
Sexaholics Anonymous and it hashelped them tremendously make
(22:35):
their lives the way they wantedit to be.
So what I'm saying is it canhappen to people who really want
to do right, really want to begood.
People can still be caught upin that.
But Sexaholics Anonymous NowI've been to Alcoholics
Anonymous because I had a bigstruggle with alcohol several
years ago, but I've never beento Sexaholics Anonymous.
But I hear it's a 12-stepprogram.
That's really really very goodand if you're afraid to go on
(22:58):
your own, you can probably lookthem up on the internet, find
out the closest group to you andhopefully they'll have some
kind of a contact person thereand you can contact him, because
if you're going to go, you'renot going to go mixed gender,
not to Sexaholics synonymous,but contact him or her, as the
case may be, and say I'm reallykind of afraid to come or
(23:19):
ashamed to come or apprehensiveabout coming.
You know, can you help me and Idon't know about them?
Maybe you can just ask yourbest buddy to go with you the
first time and he or she can gowith you the first time.
I know, an alcoholic synonymous,that when you come to what they
call the first time and he orshe can go with you the first
time.
I know in Alcoholics Anonymousthat when you come to what they
call the closed meeting, you'resupposed to be an alcoholic but
(23:40):
there are so many people outthere admitting themselves to be
alcoholics you typically canfind somebody who will go with
you.
Sexaholics Anonymous I'm notsure.
I would just ask I'm afraid tocome.
Can my buddy come with me thefirst time?
And my guess is they're goingto say yes, that's my guess.
A lot of resources.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Yeah, a lot of good resources.
Was there anything else we needto cover before we wrap the
episode?
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Well, isn't it true that when couples come through
our workshop we don't deal withsex addiction directly or
pornography directly in theworkshop, but in our membership
we have that seven and a halfhour program.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
The SPARK program for workshop graduates?
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Yeah, so if a couple is coming through the workshop
now it's not seven and a halfhours in one sitting, there's
actually 12 sessions and there'steaching.
There are actor couples who talkthings out and then every once
in a while I'll say stop thevideo and do this exercise in
the PDF that you have, and thenwhen you both finish that, come
(24:43):
back to the video.
I'll explain what your scoresmean.
And so for graduates of ourprogram, they can actually get
that and the one that was sevenand a half hours that they work
to together and talk about asthey go through it, which means
it's going to take more thanseven and a half hours.
But you do it in segments.
I went one segment, two,segment three, et cetera, and
(25:05):
and that can help a lot inopening up the conversations in
your marriage even hasinstruments in it where that if
one of you wants to do somethingsexually that the other one is
hesitant about doing, there's alittle profile thing you can use
there to help you figure outwhether you should try it or not
, based on what each of youfeels, and that's based in there
(25:27):
.
There's all kinds of goodthings in there.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Yeah, absolutely.
If you want to find out moreabout that or any other way that
we can help you at MarriageHelper marriagehelpercom.
Slash call Just go there, booka call.
Someone on our team will beable to answer your questions
and see if there's anything wedo.
That would be a great fit foryou, joe.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Yes, sorry that I talk so much in this workshop.
I'm sorry I talk so much inthis episode.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
You're the expert.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
But I'm the sexologist.
That's right.
And you might be thinking,isn't that your daughter?
Yes, and you're talking thisopenly in front of her.
Yes, so we have to tell themthe story before we go on Tell
them the story.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
I took his human sexuality class, the first one
you ever did.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
The first one I taught in university.
She was in it and the day I wasdiscussing a particular part of
the female genitalia, one ofthe other girls in class looked
at her and said is this likefreaking you out?
And you said At our house.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
This is dinner conversation.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
We've always been open and transparent.
Now we don't get vulgar, butwe've also always been open and
transparent.
Thanks for letting me rambleabout it.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
No, I think it's super helpful, Definitely needed
.
Remember there is always hope.
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