June 4, 2025 • 21 mins
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When your marriage feels like it's falling apart, it's tempting to search for answers—especially ones that explain your spouse’s behavior. Maybe you’ve wondered, "Could they be a narcissist?" or "Do they have bipolar disorder?"
In this episode, Kimberly Beam Holmes is joined by Marriage Helper coach and counselor Meredith Ball to unpack the dangers of diagnosing your spouse. You’ll learn why it’s natural to want clarity, but how labeling your spouse can backfire—leading to more disconnection instead of healing.
We’ll discuss:
- Why people self-diagnose their spouse
- The risks of assigning mental health labels without professional help
- How to focus on what’s actually within your control
- The surprising way real healing starts
If you're struggling in your marriage, don’t wait. Get our FREE resource: The 7 Steps to Rescue Your Marriage 👉 https://marriagehelper.com/free
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Should you diagnose your spouse with a mental health
disorder?
If yes, how do you do it and ifnot, why not?
That's what we're going to bediscussing on today's episode,
and I am joined by marriagehelper coach Meredith Ball, Glad
to have you back again.
Thank you.
Also.
You are a counselor,professional counselor, working
(00:20):
towards your licensure in LPC,which stands for licensed
professional counselor, Correct.
Did you have a class on this inyour master's program?
Like should you diagnose otherpeople?
Speaker 2 (00:31):
There's a psychopathology class that you
take.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Yes, so that you know , part of my licensure will be a
mental health service provider,which does give me the right to
diagnose, but there's quite abit of discussion in the
counseling field about howhelpful that even is.
That may be something that weget into.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Oh interesting.
Is there a psychopathology inthe DSM for people who love to
diagnose other people?
Speaker 2 (01:04):
That probably could fall under some different things
.
It's not an official diagnosisthat I know of.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Right.
But there I mean, I see it allthe time I'm sure you do too
where people just want to knowor they want to have some kind
of explanation for things theydon't think are quite right.
Yeah, why do you think that is?
Speaker 2 (01:24):
It's something I run into a lot in my work and it's
something that I can relate to,because in the case of a
marriage helper client, what isoften happening is there's a
standing spouse who is seeingbehavior in their reluctant
(01:44):
spouse that seems completelycontrary to the person they've
known them to be, and I thinkthe idea of a diagnosis to them
seems like it would be some kindof peace, almost like I can
wrap my mind around why myspouse is acting, why their
(02:07):
behavior seems so out of linefor them, and it almost makes
their spouse maybe a little lessculpable.
If there's a like a medical ora psychopathological reason why
their spouse is acting the waythey are, maybe some of their
behavior is a little bit easierto stomach as well.
So I get why it is.
(02:27):
I think we like answers.
Uncertainty is hard.
So whether it's something goingon with my spouse that's caused
them to want out of themarriage, or something going on
with my kid who's having troublefocusing at school or is in
trouble at school, whatever itis, we go looking for answers
and maybe other people who wouldsay their symptoms are in line
(02:49):
with what we're experiencing.
I think there's some sort ofreassurance that can be found
there.
So I certainly can understandwhy and, like I said, I've been
there myself with people closeto me that I'm like I have to
wrap my mind around why they'reeven doing these things that
they're doing, which seem reallycrazy.
I mean, it's crazy making stuffthat we and maybe we notice in
(03:10):
ourselves as well, but certainlyin other people that we're
trying to figure out.
We're trying to figure outsomething yeah, we can relate,
how we can get solutions, thattype of yeah, I had a family
member who diagnosed herself.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
She diagnosed her child being on the spectrum, and
this was like 25 years ago.
Because she was like, oh well,they're like sensitive to
certain types of fabrics andhave interest in certain
subjects more than others.
Therefore they must haveasperger's.
And then she started treatingthem that way, even though they
(03:47):
didn't have asperger's, but shewas like using it as the way to
like explain why her child wasdifferent but, it was.
I think in that specificsituation it was more of like
she had shame about the fact herchild was different and wanted
an answer, and but, but theydidn't.
They didn't like the bottom,but they didn't.
They didn't but the bottom linethey didn't.
And so then there was thisresentment, as they grew up, of
(04:09):
like you labeled me I wastreated as somebody who was
different.
Right Instead of just acceptingme you tried to like, label me
and fix me.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Yeah, and I mean in that case there are a lot of
kids who are sensitive to loudsounds or bright lights or
fabrics.
I mean that's, that's a thingthat we see in a lot of young
children when their brains arestill developing.
So some of the symptomsymptomology that she was
noticing, which she was probablycorrect about, um, and I think
what I would caution people tobe careful of is
(04:43):
over-identifying with thatsymptomology.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
Because why.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Because, like in your case, she almost came to
identify her child withsomething that felt pathological
to the child, Like mom isidentifying me with something
that's wrong about me and istreating me in such a way that
I'm different, where certainlyyou know, she notices that her
(05:09):
child is sensitive to certainfabrics.
Well, maybe she does want toexplore what she can do to help
with that.
You know, nobody wants to besending their kid off to school
and they're uncomfortablebecause of the fabrics they're
wearing, or something like that,and she may even seek out the
causes for that.
But to then over identify withit and make it like this
identifying characteristic inyour child's life, and
especially if the child startedto feel like there was something
(05:32):
wrong, with him or her.
Yeah, I can see where thatcould.
That could go south.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
When it comes to the marriage situations, what do you
think are the common ways thatpeople like?
What do they typically diagnosetheir spouse or try to diagnose
their spouse with from theirown Google or chat?
Gpt research.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Well, and I think we're going to talk about this
in another episode butnarcissism is the one that I
hear a good bit.
I have spouses that I work withwho say my spouse is saying that
I'm a narcissist and thenspouses that are saying I think
my spouse is a narcissist.
So now that is a psychologicaldisorder of narcissistic
personality disorder.
(06:15):
I think sometimes when peoplesay that, they're kind of
conflating it with the generalumbrella of personality
disorders, that's probably theone that I hear the most.
But I mean I hear all kinds ofthings major depressive disorder
, ocd, bipolar, you know,anxiety disorders, ptsd, all of
(06:36):
this and all of those diagnosesthey may be.
There may be something they'reprobably noticing, some kind of
symptomology that would they maybe.
There may be something they'reprobably noticing, some kind of
symptomology that would crediblylead them to believe that their
spouse might have that kind ofdiagnosis.
But how helpful is it toactually seek that out on your
own when your spouse doesn'twant that, may not need that?
(06:57):
I think it's an over focus onin a direction that may not be
helpful in the example ofsomebody whose marriage is in
crisis, like if I'm a standingspouse and my spouse wants out
of the marriage or they'rehaving an affair, and I'm seeing
in them all sorts of behaviorsthat are very troubling to me.
(07:19):
I still have to focus on what'smost helpful for me which
getting on Google or chat GPTand trying to diagnose them with
something and and and then whathappens is you start trying to
pin the entire entire problem onthis diagnosis and it's
probably not the main route.
That's that's the trouble inthe marriage and it's it's also
(07:42):
just it's not something that'swithin your control.
A lot of times Now I did.
I had a client recently who youknow she.
She came to her first coachingsession and she said my husband
was recently diagnosed withbipolar two.
This psychiatrist gave him thatdiagnosis.
(08:03):
The psychiatrist is treating itwith this certain medication
and this certain kind of therapy, and so that is being dealt
with and that's an important herhusband was bought into the
fact that that's something heneeds to deal with.
He's seeking out his owntreatment with the support of
his wife.
So that's something that'sbeing dealt with over here.
It's parallel to the work thatthey're doing on their marriage,
(08:23):
but it's's.
It's parallel to the work thatthey're doing on their marriage,
but it's not at the heart ofthe work that they're doing on
their marriage.
Now, as his bipolar getstreated and he gets in a
healthier spot, that I meanthat's essentially him working
his pies like he's going to bein a better place to work on his
marriage.
But the marriage issues are whatwe see all the time there's
some infidelity and there's somecontrol.
Issues are what we see all thetime there's some infidelity and
(08:45):
there's some control.
And that's the kind of workthat they need to focus on when
they're here, when they'recoaching, when they're trying to
make their marriage better.
They need to both be focused onthe things that they can
contribute to making therelationships stronger and not
pinning it over here.
But absolutely I mean therecould be other issues that need
to be dealt with.
But absolutely I mean therecould be other issues that need
(09:05):
to be dealt with.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
It's just I would be careful of penning the marriage
problems, or the hope of themarriage, on getting a certain
diagnosis or getting thattreated.
Ok, I want to.
I'm going to ask this questionfirst and it's going to sound
like we're going a little bitbackwards.
But what if you truly dobelieve that your spouse is
struggling with something likethat and you know that it would
(09:35):
really help them if they gottreatment?
But you can't force them to gettreatment, like how, what is
what?
What are some of the bestpractices of encouraging your
spouse to get help for something?
Speaker 2 (09:44):
yeah, I I mean I.
I have heard with clients thatI've worked with in in coaching
and in counseling.
They have told me things thatwould lend me to believe that
their spouse might have apersonality disorder or even
psychosis or bipolar.
I would, I would at least wantto investigate that if I were
(10:06):
that person's medicalprofessional or counselor, which
a lot of times I don't have anyaccess to that person at all.
So you know, in the case of apersonality disorder, one of the
characteristics that we oftensee in people that suffer from a
personality disorder is theykind of think they don't have a
problem.
They tend to play the victimpretty well.
The problem is out there, witheverybody else.
(10:28):
They have a hard time takingownership of everything.
So it really does put you inthe lane of the very solid
marriage helper advice, which isto work your pies.
Do your smart contact.
Focus on accepting your spouse.
Express the acceptance when youcan.
When you can authenticallyexpress acceptance puts you out
(10:54):
of the crazy making of trying tofix them and ruminate on what
they're doing or not doing.
Puts you back in the driver'sseat of your life, focusing on
the things you can control andyou really are, I mean.
A lot of times.
Nearly all the time when I seesomebody in Marriage Helper,
they are playing the long game.
We are giving their spouse achance, maybe for limerence to
(11:14):
wear off, maybe for them to takenotice of their spouse and the
things they're doing, to see ifthey want to incorporate similar
changes and see if they getthere.
If after 12 months or 18 monthsthere hasn't been any progress
on the spouse's front, then I dothink you can have the
discussion with trusted lovedones as a standing spouse.
What does this mean for me?
(11:36):
Like this person seems to havetheir heels dug in pretty deeply
.
They're not being moved by anyof the changes that I'm making.
They don't want to come in anycloser and discuss the work that
we can do.
You've still made the changesand you've done the things that
you need to do to be healthy, bea healthy person and be in
healthier relationships, and youwere never able to control them
(11:58):
anyway.
But I would say wouldn't it beworth it to give them the chance
to see, Because I believe thatnobody is beyond the possibility
of change.
Some people take a while to getthere, so you're essentially
it's a lot of patience andfocusing on yourself and the
things that you can control At acertain essentially it's it's a
lot of patience and focusing onyourself and the things that
you can control at a certainpoint.
(12:19):
You know, we wouldn't expectanybody to just stand for a
marriage interminably if therereally isn't, if their spouse
really isn't addressing thingsthat need to be addressed.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Another thing, though , too, is I know that I like if,
if a situation is happening inmy life, I blow things out of
proportion, Like no, I know it'shard to believe but I may
exaggerate circumstances, and so, um, I'm thinking about
something yesterday where I wasfrustrated about a situation and
(12:51):
I just went to one of like oneof my um, one of the groups that
I'm in, and I was like I feellike this is so like crazy and
terrible.
And after telling it to them,they were like this sounds
totally normal and completelyovercomable, right, but for me,
sitting in the middle of it, itfelt crazy, and so I have to
(13:14):
feel like that happens a lot too, when people are sitting in
their bed at night and justthinking like clearly, something
must be wrong with my spouse.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Oh, and it's worse at night too.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
A hundred percent, always worse at night, and so I
think what you shared is evenmore powerful than two of like
you.
First of all and this is what Iwant to get to next, like is it
even helpful for there to be adiagnosis?
But then, secondly, even ifthere was, it doesn't change
what you have to do.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Right, that would be my main point.
Yeah, is it helpful to get adiagnosis?
It could be, but if it's foranother grown, adult person,
they're going to have to be theones that drive that process of
getting the diagnosis andgetting treated.
Have to be the ones that drivethat process of getting the
diagnosis and getting treated.
If they don't want to do that,you know you want to work hard
(14:01):
and do your pie, so that youhave that influence with them,
so that perhaps they want topursue that.
I mean absolutely.
I mean I think basically all ofus would benefit at least at
some point in our lives fromsome therapeutic help.
I think that basically all ofus are probably, at least maybe
not always throughout the entirespan of our life, but at some
point we could be diagnosed withsomething in the DSM.
So there's no shame in gettinghelp, but the person who would
(14:25):
need the diagnosis has to be theone driving it, or else it's
just not helpful.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
I remember I guess it was like 12 years ago now.
It was when they just had addeda new item into the dsm, which
they've probably added severalsince then, but it was like this
overarching diagnosis, uh, andI can't remember what the word
was, but it was basically likedifficulty adjusting to new
situations, adjustment disorder,adjustment disorder.
(14:50):
Yeah, yes, exactly yeah.
I just remember being taughtlike this one's kind of the and
it's the catch-all and they incounseling school.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
They're like if somebody doesn't meet the
criteria for PTSD but they seemto be having a hard time
adjusting because of some liveevent.
You can diagnose them withadjustment disorder and some I
mean there's a lot of politicsthat go into that, because
sometimes you need a diagnosisin order for the insurance to
pick up the bill.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Oh, I mean, that's what I was about to say.
Like, because you mentioned atthe beginning of the episode.
There's this, these talks inthe counseling world of like.
Is it even helpful to diagnosepeople?
Can you expand more on that?
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Yeah, so you know where I work in the private
practice world and where I wentto school where most people were
going into private practice orat least that's probably their
longer term goal.
There's a lot of discussionabout what people really need be
(16:02):
once they're healed and to leaninto that and that a diagnosis
might actually get them focusedon their own psychopathology and
actually hold them back.
And now there are probablypeople in the medical world that
would say that doesn't, thatdoesn't.
Maybe that works in thecounseling world but that's
probably not going to work in inin their realm.
But there's a lot of peoplethat think that diagnoses can
hold people back more than itcan help them.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
I could see that.
I'm thinking about a friend ofmine who she struggled with
several different things but herhusband for sure leaned into
her labels and was just like, ohwell, she's just a sick
individual because she wasstruggling with depression and
(16:41):
anxiety and some other thingsand then.
But then he just ended upseeing her that way and then she
ended up staying stuck in thiscycle too, like she was already
struggling.
But then to have your spousealso kind of on top of that,
have your spouse also kind of ontop of that, continue that
narrative Kind of reinforce yourlack of self-worth, right yeah?
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Or people begin to believe that they aren't capable
of things that other peoplewould be capable of because of
their diagnosis.
So you don't want it to be aself-limiting thing and you
don't want it to be an otherslimiting thing, where you're
placing a limitation on somebodyelse and you don't want it to
(17:27):
be an others limiting thingwhere you're placing a
limitation on somebody else.
And you know, along those samelines I was thinking of, I've
had some marriage helper clientssaying things that just seemed
unreal to me and I was hurt andI was angry because of what was
going on in the marriage and Italked too much, and one of the
things I said to people whoreally it was none of their
business was I think he mighthave a psychotic disorder.
(17:50):
Well, now she's poisoned thewell.
So when their marriage startedto turn around and they started
coming back together, she hasdamage control to do from the
things that she was out theresaying.
And it doesn't mean I also talkto a lot of marriage helper
clients who could probably usean extra confidant or two to
really talk to these thingsabout.
They're just very, veryisolated and so sometimes we
(18:12):
talk about how to resource themin that regard.
But the other mistake that youcan make is to talk too much and
speculate too much about thingsthat you really don't know
about and then regret it later.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
And I haven't I mean, I haven't really had this with
like diagnosing other peoplewith mental health disorders.
It's more so been like my ownhealth concerns that I like to
try and find, you know, Google,and so it's like my mom, my dad,
(18:45):
my husband there's like mythree people that when I feel
myself spiraling about thosethings, I call and they are able
to talk me off a ledge, and so,you know, in the terms of
marriage crisis, it's findingthose people who can talk you
off a ledge and hold hope withyou and not like feed into your
spiraling.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
And maybe even say you know, like faithful are the
wounds of a friend, like I knowyou're really hurt but I think
you're saying things that areunfounded.
We at least need to wait forthe proper medical professional
to make that kind of diagnosis.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Do you think that most people's friends are that
wise?
Speaker 2 (19:25):
Well, and a lot of us have a hard time taking that
kind of feedback.
Yeah, yeah, if you want to havegood friends, you have to be a
good friend sometimes.
Yeah, but I am sometimesrefreshingly surprised at how
well some of my clients can takefeedback like that.
You know, I'm always trying tolike package it in a little
(19:46):
positive sandwich, but some ofthem are like that's a really
good point.
I need to let that work betheir work and I need to stay in
my lane.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
That's really good, okay, so what are the key
takeaways you would want someoneto have from this conversation?
Speaker 2 (20:02):
I think the main thing I would want to say is I
understand the need to try toexplain stuff that doesn't make
any sense.
I get that and you know that'swhat draws us to seek out help,
and there are lots of reallygood sources of help out there.
I think speculating on adiagnosis for someone besides
yourself without the proper youknow medical authorities there
(20:28):
to help you is it can take youdown a really dangerous path.
Path and my encouragement to youwould be that I don't think
you're ever going to find anexplanation that's going to make
some of the nonsense that isgoing on, because I coach with
about 20 clients a week andthere's just a lot of nonsense
going.
(20:48):
There's a lot of crazy makingstuff going on out there, and I
don't think you're ever going toget an explanation that's going
to be like oh, now I totallyunderstand why my spouse is
doing these crazy things thatthey're doing.
That is not where you're goingto find your peace.
You're going to find your peaceby continuing to work on
yourself and do the things thatyou need to do to be the best
(21:10):
version of yourself, to be arelationally healthy person,
that type of thing.
So I get it and I would justreally caution the hazard that's
there and that you want to putsome boundaries around that need
to try to find answers wheremaybe it's okay to kind of live
with some uncertainty.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Yeah, I love that.
I think that's super wise.
Okay, well, we're going to divein to our next episode about
narcissism, but for thosecurrently listening, this is the
end of this week's episode.
Tune back in next week as wepick up talking about narcissism
.
And what do you do if yourspouse has said that you're a
narcissist?
And what if you think yourspouse is a narcissist?
(21:51):
We're going to dive into thatuntil next week.
Remember, there is always hope.
Should you diagnose your spouse with a mental health
disorder?
If yes, how do you do it and ifnot, why not?
That's what we're going to bediscussing on today's episode,
and I am joined by marriagehelper coach Meredith Ball, Glad
to have you back again.
Thank you.
Also.
You are a counselor,professional counselor, working
(00:20):
towards your licensure in LPC,which stands for licensed
professional counselor, Correct.
Did you have a class on this inyour master's program?
Like should you diagnose otherpeople?
Speaker 2 (00:31):
There's a psychopathology class that you
take.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Yes, so that you know , part of my licensure will be a
mental health service provider,which does give me the right to
diagnose, but there's quite abit of discussion in the
counseling field about howhelpful that even is.
That may be something that weget into.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Oh interesting.
Is there a psychopathology inthe DSM for people who love to
diagnose other people?
Speaker 2 (01:04):
That probably could fall under some different things
.
It's not an official diagnosisthat I know of.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Right.
But there I mean, I see it allthe time I'm sure you do too
where people just want to knowor they want to have some kind
of explanation for things theydon't think are quite right.
Yeah, why do you think that is?
Speaker 2 (01:24):
It's something I run into a lot in my work and it's
something that I can relate to,because in the case of a
marriage helper client, what isoften happening is there's a
standing spouse who is seeingbehavior in their reluctant
(01:44):
spouse that seems completelycontrary to the person they've
known them to be, and I thinkthe idea of a diagnosis to them
seems like it would be some kindof peace, almost like I can
wrap my mind around why myspouse is acting, why their
(02:07):
behavior seems so out of linefor them, and it almost makes
their spouse maybe a little lessculpable.
If there's a like a medical ora psychopathological reason why
their spouse is acting the waythey are, maybe some of their
behavior is a little bit easierto stomach as well.
So I get why it is.
(02:27):
I think we like answers.
Uncertainty is hard.
So whether it's something goingon with my spouse that's caused
them to want out of themarriage, or something going on
with my kid who's having troublefocusing at school or is in
trouble at school, whatever itis, we go looking for answers
and maybe other people who wouldsay their symptoms are in line
(02:49):
with what we're experiencing.
I think there's some sort ofreassurance that can be found
there.
So I certainly can understandwhy and, like I said, I've been
there myself with people closeto me that I'm like I have to
wrap my mind around why they'reeven doing these things that
they're doing, which seem reallycrazy.
I mean, it's crazy making stuffthat we and maybe we notice in
(03:10):
ourselves as well, but certainlyin other people that we're
trying to figure out.
We're trying to figure outsomething yeah, we can relate,
how we can get solutions, thattype of yeah, I had a family
member who diagnosed herself.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
She diagnosed her child being on the spectrum, and
this was like 25 years ago.
Because she was like, oh well,they're like sensitive to
certain types of fabrics andhave interest in certain
subjects more than others.
Therefore they must haveasperger's.
And then she started treatingthem that way, even though they
(03:47):
didn't have asperger's, but shewas like using it as the way to
like explain why her child wasdifferent but, it was.
I think in that specificsituation it was more of like
she had shame about the fact herchild was different and wanted
an answer, and but, but theydidn't.
They didn't like the bottom,but they didn't.
They didn't but the bottom linethey didn't.
And so then there was thisresentment, as they grew up, of
(04:09):
like you labeled me I wastreated as somebody who was
different.
Right Instead of just acceptingme you tried to like, label me
and fix me.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Yeah, and I mean in that case there are a lot of
kids who are sensitive to loudsounds or bright lights or
fabrics.
I mean that's, that's a thingthat we see in a lot of young
children when their brains arestill developing.
So some of the symptomsymptomology that she was
noticing, which she was probablycorrect about, um, and I think
what I would caution people tobe careful of is
(04:43):
over-identifying with thatsymptomology.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
Because why.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Because, like in your case, she almost came to
identify her child withsomething that felt pathological
to the child, Like mom isidentifying me with something
that's wrong about me and istreating me in such a way that
I'm different, where certainlyyou know, she notices that her
(05:09):
child is sensitive to certainfabrics.
Well, maybe she does want toexplore what she can do to help
with that.
You know, nobody wants to besending their kid off to school
and they're uncomfortablebecause of the fabrics they're
wearing, or something like that,and she may even seek out the
causes for that.
But to then over identify withit and make it like this
identifying characteristic inyour child's life, and
especially if the child startedto feel like there was something
(05:32):
wrong, with him or her.
Yeah, I can see where thatcould.
That could go south.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
When it comes to the marriage situations, what do you
think are the common ways thatpeople like?
What do they typically diagnosetheir spouse or try to diagnose
their spouse with from theirown Google or chat?
Gpt research.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Well, and I think we're going to talk about this
in another episode butnarcissism is the one that I
hear a good bit.
I have spouses that I work withwho say my spouse is saying that
I'm a narcissist and thenspouses that are saying I think
my spouse is a narcissist.
So now that is a psychologicaldisorder of narcissistic
personality disorder.
(06:15):
I think sometimes when peoplesay that, they're kind of
conflating it with the generalumbrella of personality
disorders, that's probably theone that I hear the most.
But I mean I hear all kinds ofthings major depressive disorder
, ocd, bipolar, you know,anxiety disorders, ptsd, all of
(06:36):
this and all of those diagnosesthey may be.
There may be something they'reprobably noticing, some kind of
symptomology that would they maybe.
There may be something they'reprobably noticing, some kind of
symptomology that would crediblylead them to believe that their
spouse might have that kind ofdiagnosis.
But how helpful is it toactually seek that out on your
own when your spouse doesn'twant that, may not need that?
(06:57):
I think it's an over focus onin a direction that may not be
helpful in the example ofsomebody whose marriage is in
crisis, like if I'm a standingspouse and my spouse wants out
of the marriage or they'rehaving an affair, and I'm seeing
in them all sorts of behaviorsthat are very troubling to me.
(07:19):
I still have to focus on what'smost helpful for me which
getting on Google or chat GPTand trying to diagnose them with
something and and and then whathappens is you start trying to
pin the entire entire problem onthis diagnosis and it's
probably not the main route.
That's that's the trouble inthe marriage and it's it's also
(07:42):
just it's not something that'swithin your control.
A lot of times Now I did.
I had a client recently who youknow she.
She came to her first coachingsession and she said my husband
was recently diagnosed withbipolar two.
This psychiatrist gave him thatdiagnosis.
(08:03):
The psychiatrist is treating itwith this certain medication
and this certain kind of therapy, and so that is being dealt
with and that's an important herhusband was bought into the
fact that that's something heneeds to deal with.
He's seeking out his owntreatment with the support of
his wife.
So that's something that'sbeing dealt with over here.
It's parallel to the work thatthey're doing on their marriage,
(08:23):
but it's's.
It's parallel to the work thatthey're doing on their marriage,
but it's not at the heart ofthe work that they're doing on
their marriage.
Now, as his bipolar getstreated and he gets in a
healthier spot, that I meanthat's essentially him working
his pies like he's going to bein a better place to work on his
marriage.
But the marriage issues are whatwe see all the time there's
some infidelity and there's somecontrol.
Issues are what we see all thetime there's some infidelity and
(08:45):
there's some control.
And that's the kind of workthat they need to focus on when
they're here, when they'recoaching, when they're trying to
make their marriage better.
They need to both be focused onthe things that they can
contribute to making therelationships stronger and not
pinning it over here.
But absolutely I mean therecould be other issues that need
to be dealt with.
But absolutely I mean therecould be other issues that need
(09:05):
to be dealt with.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
It's just I would be careful of penning the marriage
problems, or the hope of themarriage, on getting a certain
diagnosis or getting thattreated.
Ok, I want to.
I'm going to ask this questionfirst and it's going to sound
like we're going a little bitbackwards.
But what if you truly dobelieve that your spouse is
struggling with something likethat and you know that it would
(09:35):
really help them if they gottreatment?
But you can't force them to gettreatment, like how, what is
what?
What are some of the bestpractices of encouraging your
spouse to get help for something?
Speaker 2 (09:44):
yeah, I I mean I.
I have heard with clients thatI've worked with in in coaching
and in counseling.
They have told me things thatwould lend me to believe that
their spouse might have apersonality disorder or even
psychosis or bipolar.
I would, I would at least wantto investigate that if I were
(10:06):
that person's medicalprofessional or counselor, which
a lot of times I don't have anyaccess to that person at all.
So you know, in the case of apersonality disorder, one of the
characteristics that we oftensee in people that suffer from a
personality disorder is theykind of think they don't have a
problem.
They tend to play the victimpretty well.
The problem is out there, witheverybody else.
(10:28):
They have a hard time takingownership of everything.
So it really does put you inthe lane of the very solid
marriage helper advice, which isto work your pies.
Do your smart contact.
Focus on accepting your spouse.
Express the acceptance when youcan.
When you can authenticallyexpress acceptance puts you out
(10:54):
of the crazy making of trying tofix them and ruminate on what
they're doing or not doing.
Puts you back in the driver'sseat of your life, focusing on
the things you can control andyou really are, I mean.
A lot of times.
Nearly all the time when I seesomebody in Marriage Helper,
they are playing the long game.
We are giving their spouse achance, maybe for limerence to
(11:14):
wear off, maybe for them to takenotice of their spouse and the
things they're doing, to see ifthey want to incorporate similar
changes and see if they getthere.
If after 12 months or 18 monthsthere hasn't been any progress
on the spouse's front, then I dothink you can have the
discussion with trusted lovedones as a standing spouse.
What does this mean for me?
(11:36):
Like this person seems to havetheir heels dug in pretty deeply
.
They're not being moved by anyof the changes that I'm making.
They don't want to come in anycloser and discuss the work that
we can do.
You've still made the changesand you've done the things that
you need to do to be healthy, bea healthy person and be in
healthier relationships, and youwere never able to control them
(11:58):
anyway.
But I would say wouldn't it beworth it to give them the chance
to see, Because I believe thatnobody is beyond the possibility
of change.
Some people take a while to getthere, so you're essentially
it's a lot of patience andfocusing on yourself and the
things that you can control At acertain essentially it's it's a
lot of patience and focusing onyourself and the things that
you can control at a certainpoint.
(12:19):
You know, we wouldn't expectanybody to just stand for a
marriage interminably if therereally isn't, if their spouse
really isn't addressing thingsthat need to be addressed.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Another thing, though , too, is I know that I like if,
if a situation is happening inmy life, I blow things out of
proportion, Like no, I know it'shard to believe but I may
exaggerate circumstances, and so, um, I'm thinking about
something yesterday where I wasfrustrated about a situation and
(12:51):
I just went to one of like oneof my um, one of the groups that
I'm in, and I was like I feellike this is so like crazy and
terrible.
And after telling it to them,they were like this sounds
totally normal and completelyovercomable, right, but for me,
sitting in the middle of it, itfelt crazy, and so I have to
(13:14):
feel like that happens a lot too, when people are sitting in
their bed at night and justthinking like clearly, something
must be wrong with my spouse.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Oh, and it's worse at night too.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
A hundred percent, always worse at night, and so I
think what you shared is evenmore powerful than two of like
you.
First of all and this is what Iwant to get to next, like is it
even helpful for there to be adiagnosis?
But then, secondly, even ifthere was, it doesn't change
what you have to do.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Right, that would be my main point.
Yeah, is it helpful to get adiagnosis?
It could be, but if it's foranother grown, adult person,
they're going to have to be theones that drive that process of
getting the diagnosis andgetting treated.
Have to be the ones that drivethat process of getting the
diagnosis and getting treated.
If they don't want to do that,you know you want to work hard
(14:01):
and do your pie, so that youhave that influence with them,
so that perhaps they want topursue that.
I mean absolutely.
I mean I think basically all ofus would benefit at least at
some point in our lives fromsome therapeutic help.
I think that basically all ofus are probably, at least maybe
not always throughout the entirespan of our life, but at some
point we could be diagnosed withsomething in the DSM.
So there's no shame in gettinghelp, but the person who would
(14:25):
need the diagnosis has to be theone driving it, or else it's
just not helpful.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
I remember I guess it was like 12 years ago now.
It was when they just had addeda new item into the dsm, which
they've probably added severalsince then, but it was like this
overarching diagnosis, uh, andI can't remember what the word
was, but it was basically likedifficulty adjusting to new
situations, adjustment disorder,adjustment disorder.
(14:50):
Yeah, yes, exactly yeah.
I just remember being taughtlike this one's kind of the and
it's the catch-all and they incounseling school.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
They're like if somebody doesn't meet the
criteria for PTSD but they seemto be having a hard time
adjusting because of some liveevent.
You can diagnose them withadjustment disorder and some I
mean there's a lot of politicsthat go into that, because
sometimes you need a diagnosisin order for the insurance to
pick up the bill.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Oh, I mean, that's what I was about to say.
Like, because you mentioned atthe beginning of the episode.
There's this, these talks inthe counseling world of like.
Is it even helpful to diagnosepeople?
Can you expand more on that?
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Yeah, so you know where I work in the private
practice world and where I wentto school where most people were
going into private practice orat least that's probably their
longer term goal.
There's a lot of discussionabout what people really need be
(16:02):
once they're healed and to leaninto that and that a diagnosis
might actually get them focusedon their own psychopathology and
actually hold them back.
And now there are probablypeople in the medical world that
would say that doesn't, thatdoesn't.
Maybe that works in thecounseling world but that's
probably not going to work in inin their realm.
But there's a lot of peoplethat think that diagnoses can
hold people back more than itcan help them.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
I could see that.
I'm thinking about a friend ofmine who she struggled with
several different things but herhusband for sure leaned into
her labels and was just like, ohwell, she's just a sick
individual because she wasstruggling with depression and
(16:41):
anxiety and some other thingsand then.
But then he just ended upseeing her that way and then she
ended up staying stuck in thiscycle too, like she was already
struggling.
But then to have your spousealso kind of on top of that,
have your spouse also kind of ontop of that, continue that
narrative Kind of reinforce yourlack of self-worth, right yeah?
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Or people begin to believe that they aren't capable
of things that other peoplewould be capable of because of
their diagnosis.
So you don't want it to be aself-limiting thing and you
don't want it to be an otherslimiting thing, where you're
placing a limitation on somebodyelse and you don't want it to
(17:27):
be an others limiting thingwhere you're placing a
limitation on somebody else.
And you know, along those samelines I was thinking of, I've
had some marriage helper clientssaying things that just seemed
unreal to me and I was hurt andI was angry because of what was
going on in the marriage and Italked too much, and one of the
things I said to people whoreally it was none of their
business was I think he mighthave a psychotic disorder.
(17:50):
Well, now she's poisoned thewell.
So when their marriage startedto turn around and they started
coming back together, she hasdamage control to do from the
things that she was out theresaying.
And it doesn't mean I also talkto a lot of marriage helper
clients who could probably usean extra confidant or two to
really talk to these thingsabout.
They're just very, veryisolated and so sometimes we
(18:12):
talk about how to resource themin that regard.
But the other mistake that youcan make is to talk too much and
speculate too much about thingsthat you really don't know
about and then regret it later.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
And I haven't I mean, I haven't really had this with
like diagnosing other peoplewith mental health disorders.
It's more so been like my ownhealth concerns that I like to
try and find, you know, Google,and so it's like my mom, my dad,
(18:45):
my husband there's like mythree people that when I feel
myself spiraling about thosethings, I call and they are able
to talk me off a ledge, and so,you know, in the terms of
marriage crisis, it's findingthose people who can talk you
off a ledge and hold hope withyou and not like feed into your
spiraling.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
And maybe even say you know, like faithful are the
wounds of a friend, like I knowyou're really hurt but I think
you're saying things that areunfounded.
We at least need to wait forthe proper medical professional
to make that kind of diagnosis.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Do you think that most people's friends are that
wise?
Speaker 2 (19:25):
Well, and a lot of us have a hard time taking that
kind of feedback.
Yeah, yeah, if you want to havegood friends, you have to be a
good friend sometimes.
Yeah, but I am sometimesrefreshingly surprised at how
well some of my clients can takefeedback like that.
You know, I'm always trying tolike package it in a little
(19:46):
positive sandwich, but some ofthem are like that's a really
good point.
I need to let that work betheir work and I need to stay in
my lane.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
That's really good, okay, so what are the key
takeaways you would want someoneto have from this conversation?
Speaker 2 (20:02):
I think the main thing I would want to say is I
understand the need to try toexplain stuff that doesn't make
any sense.
I get that and you know that'swhat draws us to seek out help,
and there are lots of reallygood sources of help out there.
I think speculating on adiagnosis for someone besides
yourself without the proper youknow medical authorities there
(20:28):
to help you is it can take youdown a really dangerous path.
Path and my encouragement to youwould be that I don't think
you're ever going to find anexplanation that's going to make
some of the nonsense that isgoing on, because I coach with
about 20 clients a week andthere's just a lot of nonsense
going.
(20:48):
There's a lot of crazy makingstuff going on out there, and I
don't think you're ever going toget an explanation that's going
to be like oh, now I totallyunderstand why my spouse is
doing these crazy things thatthey're doing.
That is not where you're goingto find your peace.
You're going to find your peaceby continuing to work on
yourself and do the things thatyou need to do to be the best
(21:10):
version of yourself, to be arelationally healthy person,
that type of thing.
So I get it and I would justreally caution the hazard that's
there and that you want to putsome boundaries around that need
to try to find answers wheremaybe it's okay to kind of live
with some uncertainty.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Yeah, I love that.
I think that's super wise.
Okay, well, we're going to divein to our next episode about
narcissism, but for thosecurrently listening, this is the
end of this week's episode.
Tune back in next week as wepick up talking about narcissism
.
And what do you do if yourspouse has said that you're a
narcissist?
And what if you think yourspouse is a narcissist?
(21:51):
We're going to dive into thatuntil next week.
Remember, there is always hope.
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