October 10, 2023 • 58 mins
In this episode of Relationships Matter we dive into Lionell "TJ" Tillman's grueling account of a multi-year legal battle with the child support system, and how he fought a false paternity accusation. His compelling narrative paints an alarming picture of the current child support system and how it can imprison the innocent. We also dissect the Supreme Court case Blessing versus Freestone, discuss the controversial concept of child support being voluntary, and reveal how to self-represent in court.
We don't stop there as our conversation takes a progressive turn, exploring alternative parenting options and the importance of non-financial forms of support. TJ imparts a compelling argument on the significance of fathers' involvement in children's lives, the concept of co-parenting bird nesting and the need for a reformed child support system. We wrap up with an emphasis on the profound importance of strong relationships in parenthood, underscoring the necessity of a loving environment for children. You don't want to miss this thought-provoking episode.
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Opposing experiences, a single woman and a married man, Chanel Scott, and Josh Powell, create a powerful and empathetic team, offering valuable insights and advice on navigating the complexities of romantic relationships and promoting healthier, more fulfilling connections.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
I'm Chanel Scott, the queen of relationship talk.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
I'm Josh Powell, two-time NBA champion.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
I've journeyed from trauma to healing.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
From the NBA to family, I've learned what really
matters.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
We've come together to unlock the secrets of
successful relationships.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
One conversation at a time.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
One conversation at a time.
Welcome to Relationships Matter, the podcast.
My name is Chanel Scott and Iam Josh Powell.
Guys, we have a special guesttoday, mr Lano TJ Tillman.
Child support is fraud.
That's what you know him bestfor.
(00:39):
But we're going to talk alittle bit about relationships
and we're going to transitioninto this whole idea that child
support is fraud.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Let's get to it, my dog.
Well, first and foremost, youwere the first guest to come on
here, my boy too, clay.
So I got to get a love man,because this is like we talking
(01:08):
about the brand.
My brother is crushing it and Ilove it, man.
You look very dapper, brother,and I just got to salute you,
man.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
I mean, I didn't come into playing no game, I know it
.
But at the same time, like thisis when I went in to represent
myself every hearing I wassuited in Buddha head to let
them know I'm here for businessand I didn't come into playing
no game.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
See everybody that see you man is obviously they
want to get to the businessfirst, but let's talk about the
man first, because that's themost important.
Let's talk like, becauseeverybody, I already know they
only want to know the business,right, right right right.
Let's talk about TJ.
You know what I mean.
Tell us a little bit about yourstory first.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
I'm TJ, just, first of all.
I mean my name is LionelTillman, tj Tillman, I'm a
junior, so my family has calledme TJ since I remember words.
So that's where the TJ comesfrom.
I grew up in Compton,california, went to school,
graduated from Compton HighSchool, community college, and
(02:18):
always had an entrepreneurialspirit.
I always wanted to work formyself.
But for me, as an individual,I'm an adult, great father,
great husband, or at least Ilike to think that.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Say that I'm a white character.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
But yeah, I'm an overall.
I'm just a genuine person, I'ma genuine spirit and I just like
to excel.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
How did you grow up?
Because I heard you say Compton.
So I don't want to assume, butat the same time I think it is
to be assumed.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Yeah, I mean for me, growing up in Compton, I was
involved with the gangs as ayoung age and unfortunately I
say this but I don't take pridein it but I was literally shot
at five times before I was 18years old.
As a child just living on thestreet that I had no chance.
(03:19):
I had no choice but to livehere because this is where my
mother and my grandmother reside, being on the street that you
shoot in marbles, you're ridingbikes, you're playing with your
friends.
I was shot at five times beforeI was an adult.
So, just coming up in thatenvironment, we had great times,
(03:42):
but for me, that's notsomething that I would ever want
my boys to have to experienceand I just feel like the path
that I'm on, that's my missionto make sure that they never
have to endure the things that Ihad to grow up, Because that's
(04:03):
not normal for a child, Right.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Right.
I ask that because it's settingthe tone, for I know you spoke
about your wife being married.
So, growing up in anenvironment like that, how do
you choose the proper partner?
Because I'm sure you got sometrust issues, probably a little
leery, maybe I'm just assumingbecause of how you grew up, the
things that you saw.
So talk about how that wentinto you choosing.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
My wife.
I met her she was 17.
I was 18.
We met at a Compton, had this.
Like I said, there was gang, sothey didn't like to put the
city together a lot, but at onepoint we had this mayor.
They put together these Comptontransit parties.
So every Saturday everybodycame in.
(04:51):
There was the fights.
But that's where I met my wifeat.
I was 18.
She was 17.
One of my friends, lil Mark, hesaid, hey, man, I got somebody
for you.
And he walking me over and whenI seen her I was like that's
her.
He's like yeah, I'm like yo.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
My god.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
He's like yeah, I talked to her cousin, but that's
how I met.
For us, it was the politics ofthe streets.
My family and her family, twodifferent sides of the city,
don't mesh at all, so for us toeven be together one of my
friends said this at the weddinghe actually on the mic it's
(05:35):
just to look around the room andsee the individuals that are in
this room for love, this is.
You can't tell me that Godisn't real.
And so she's a beautiful woman.
She takes great care of me andour children.
We've been married since what?
(05:58):
2016?
So what?
Yeah, We've been together offand on, the traditional man
doing man things, and she leftme several times.
But she made her way back andshe left me several times as a
(06:20):
young boy, just being a youngboy, going out there doing what
you want to do and, of course,as she say, what was done in the
dark, it comes to the light.
It always comes back around.
We're in a small city, soyou're talking to a whole other
girl, Her cousin and his friends.
(06:41):
They get to talking and it'slike ah, so she left me several
times because of me just talkingto other females, Just talking,
Just talking.
But, there was intimacy at some,but I'm just saying there was a
few of them, with just the factof you talking to another woman
(07:02):
and y'all dating.
Oh, I got to let you go.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
What do you think brings y'all back together,
though?
Because I know some people,when they hear these types of
stories, like man, I would havebeen like I'm straight, but
there's something, obviously,that kept y'all connected.
So what do you think that was?
Speaker 3 (07:20):
Honestly, I believe it was God.
She's my person From how we met.
They didn't have.
They only had three of them.
If I'm not mistaken, it onlylasted three weeks, because the
street things that goes on inthe city where it was fights,
(07:42):
and then later on, towards oncethey had a shooting, it was over
.
So it only happened three weeks.
So within that three weeks,here it is.
I met the person that I'm goingto be in a relationship with
for the rest of our lives.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
What about her?
Made her your person, though.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
It wasn't the, she was my piece.
All the other women that Idealt with, it was like when I
get with them it was just Iliked them for different things,
but whether they smokedcigarettes or it was just you
liked the woman for smokingcigarettes.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
No, no, no no.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
So I'm saying it was something about the other woman
that turned me off.
Okay, yes, With her she wasjust reserved she was different.
She was my piece.
When I was with her, it was acalm.
It was like this is my refuge,so to speak.
She was never the flashy in thestreets, she was a real
(08:54):
reserved woman.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Is this your first and only wife?
Speaker 3 (08:58):
My first and only yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Because I want to tie into the child support as fraud
, because you're still married?
Yes, you had to pay childsupport before.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
Before.
Yes, I did With this wife, no.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
Okay, with someone else.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
Yes, okay.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
Because you said y'all married at 17, 18?
.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
Well, no, I met her, I met her.
I met her, I was 18.
She was 17.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
She was married later on in life.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
Yes, so we married later on in life.
The child support aspect,that's a whole different story.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Go ahead you can see that you can y'all okay?
Speaker 1 (09:37):
so I want to get the timeline together so we can work
our way into this.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
So you met your now wife when you was 18 and she was
17.
And y'all dated when you was 18and she was 17.
But you have dated and hadchildren with someone in between
time before you married.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
Yes, okay, yes, all right.
So I met her when I was 18.
We didn't actually start dating.
I want to say she was maybe 23and I was 24, because at the
time I had a girlfriend, she hada boyfriend.
So we met.
But we're kids, we're talking.
(10:16):
There was no cell phones atthat time.
This is 1996.
Okay, so it's different.
So we got to talk on the housephone.
So during that time period thechild that I was on child
support for was conceived when Iwas 12 years old.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Wait a minute, right, and how old was the mother?
Speaker 3 (10:45):
She was 15.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
You was 12.
Oh, so this happened before youmet.
Yes, you're now white.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
Yes, yeah, okay, so keep going so met her.
This happened when I was 12years old.
Okay, Time goes on.
Long story short.
I found out about my childsupport case seven years after
it opened.
No-transcript.
Seven years after the childsupport case started, I found
(11:17):
out about it Because you was akid.
I was a kid and once I became anadult, like I said, I was
involved in the streets, so Iwas hustling, so I didn't have a
job.
Once I actually started tochange my life around, I got a
job.
Six months in, hr gave me acall and said it's payday.
I said hey, mr Tillman, we needto speak to you.
I come in.
They said well, we got anincome withholding order.
(11:39):
What is that?
She said well, it's agarnishment.
They're going to start takingyour garnishing, your checks,
effective immediately.
Who's going to start taking mymoney?
She said child support.
Child support, what do you meanchild support?
She said yeah, effectiveimmediately.
Here's the paper.
So I called them.
Child support says well, youhad six months to respond.
(11:59):
It's been seven years and sothere's nothing that can be done
.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Did you know you had this child?
Speaker 3 (12:06):
I knew the child was born.
Okay, yes, I've alwaysmaintained that it wasn't my
child because at this time, likeI said, I was 12 years old.
Now here's the whole I neverpenetrated the woman.
I see your eyes, it's going.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
It's like wait what do you mean?
This is one of those storieswhere you say, oh, he only put
the tip.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
Yeah, yeah, like we, we we try.
I mean, I was 12.
So I didn't know what I wasdoing.
I never penetrated the woman.
What I learned in eighth gradewe had a sixth education class,
to where, you know, a person canbecome pregnant from pre-comp.
(12:49):
Yeah, so at this time we're,you know, we're trying to figure
it out.
The girl she goes in my A.
There's nothing.
This is before I even find outabout child support.
I'm still a child.
So now I'm 13 years old, whatcan I do?
(13:10):
I can't contact you.
I don't have a phone to contactyou.
I don't know where the girl is.
She was my cousin's friend.
She disappeared.
That's the last we heard of it.
Yeah, until HR says hey, mrsTillman, you got child support.
And this is, like I said, thecase was going on for seven
years at this point.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
So then, what happened?
Speaker 3 (13:33):
So at that point I contact child support.
I go to them and they tell methere's nothing that can be done
.
You need to go seek legalrepresentation.
I go to the court.
The court tells me yeah,according to family code, you
had six months to respond.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
Your response is untimely, that's that Not taken
into consideration that you werea child.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
They didn't take any of that into consideration, and
you didn't it wasn't.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
I just want to clarify.
There was no relationshipbetween you and this 15 year old
girl.
It was just a situation whereit was one time.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
I met her that day.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Boy putting it that.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
I mean, she was my cousin's friend.
So it's ironic, like yesterday,my grandmother.
Well, today is my grandmother'sbirthday.
She passed away three years agoand her sister her birthday was
yesterday, which is my greatAunt Mabel.
At Mabel's house Everythinggoes, it's just.
It was just one of those housesmy mother said when they was
kids that was the house whereall the kids went to and all the
(14:31):
friends come.
People spend a night and theyend up living there.
It was, that was just theatmosphere at Aunt Mabel's house
.
And here I am, I'm spending thenight and you know my cousin's
friend, she's there and we triedand then that was the last, you
know, I heard of it until, yeah, years later.
(14:52):
So at that point this went onfor another 13 years that
nothing can be done.
So there's 12, so just to giveit a timeline, there's I find
out about the case seven yearsafter it happened, so it's
already seven years.
I talked to the court.
The court says, according tofamily code, there's nothing
(15:12):
that can be done.
That goes on for another 13years.
So now we have 20 years, but inbetween those 20, in between
those 13 years, now they'regoing to send my checks.
They put a lien on my namebecause I'm in arrears because I
found out about the case sevenyears after it opened.
So when I found out about it,I'm already in arrears.
$24,000 in a hole because theyprovided the woman cash aid,
(15:37):
food stamps, medi-cal.
So they're coming after me forall of the money that they
provided.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Did you ever meet the child?
Speaker 3 (15:45):
I did after he was an adult.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
Because he's only 12 years younger than you.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
Yeah, so I met.
I ended up meeting him.
My sister actually found himthrough Facebook, through the
process of me now taking childsupport to court to defend
myself, and when I spoke to himhe was like you know.
Initially he was like well, youknow, my mother told me that
when I was a kid that you weremy father, but later on in life
(16:18):
she told me who my real fatheris and this is who I know my
father to be Like.
That's my father.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
And not to mention getting signed a birth
certificate.
Speaker 3 (16:28):
I never signed a birth certificate, but she put
my name on a birth certificate,so that's how they came after me
.
And there's a when she get intothe child support of it.
If you don't contest it, theypresume that you agree and they
have something called primafacie.
So everyone has heard innocentuntil proven guilty.
(16:50):
Right, that's in a judicialmatter.
But child support is anadministrative process, so that
goes back into the separation ofpowers.
There's judicial branch,executive and legislative.
So when in child support theyhave prima facie, that means
that they take everything thatis filed to be true and correct
(17:13):
until you provide evidence toshow that it's not so.
If you don't contest it,they're not doing any checks, no
balances, that's just what itis.
You have to actually contest itin order to provide evidence to
show that what was filed wasnot done correctly.
So during those 13 years they'retaking my money, but they're
(17:35):
taking my license and every I'mpaying them an additional $50 a
month so I can keep my license.
But every year my license gotsuspended for a system error
every year.
So every year I now have to paythem an additional $50 to
release my license, on top ofthe 50 that I'm paying them to
(17:55):
keep it on top of me having topay the DMV $75 to reinstate my
license every time.
Now, here we go in this 13years and I'm just frustrated
and I'm like, why do we have tokeep going through this?
Like, why do y'all keep tellingme it's a system error?
And I'm, like man, I don't evenknow why I'm going through this
(18:16):
anyway because, like man, thisis fraud.
Like I didn't even have sexwith the girl and the lady said
fraud.
What do you mean?
It's fraud.
You got served.
I said wait, I got served.
She said yes, I said I gotserved.
She said yes.
I said well, tell me, what daydid I get served?
Because I've been with me everyday of my life, I know I didn't
(18:38):
get served.
And she said okay, well, holdon, I'll tell you exactly what
day she placed me on hold.
She come back.
She says I'm sorry, mr Tillman,we don't have your signature.
I said I know you don't becauseI know I didn't get served.
She said well, that don'tmatter anyway, you volunteered
into the program.
I did what?
(18:58):
When did I volunteer?
She said well, yeah, youvolunteered into the program.
I said, okay, well, tell me whatday I volunteered.
She placed me on hold.
She come back.
I'm sorry, mr Tillman, we donot have your signature.
So from this point, she told methat I had been served.
She told me that they had mysignature, which she just told
(19:18):
me that they don't.
So now I'm asking to speak tothe supervisor and things of
that nature.
They get me to the unbuzzdepartment, which is like the
eternal affairs for childsupport.
Ultimately, they didn't doanything and I end up taking
them to court once I start doingmore research, because at that
(19:39):
point I said, okay, well, whatelse am I supposed to do?
What else are they supposed todo?
And that's when I started doingmy research and studying their
policy to see what was theirpolicy on how they were to
establish these cases, and Itook them to court and I
represented myself from twoyears from that point, Wow, did
you ever see the mother of thechild again?
(20:00):
No, now she is a mother of 29children.
See her, they knew it.
I protected them FOREVER.
No, no, she never showed up tocourt.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
They had but she was collecting money.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
She was collecting money, but she never showed up
to court.
They contacted her many timesand told her to come to court.
We had maybe, like I want tosay it was like 14 hearings
within a two year period.
She never showed up to one, andI actually, so I provided Once.
(20:29):
Her son sent me a text messagesaying that you know what she
told him.
She contacted child support andsaid I'm not showing up, I
don't want to, I'm not coming atall.
Y'all can do whatever y'allwant to do, I'm not coming.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
I noticed you said her son so.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
To this day.
You don't.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
Well, because now here's the thing I said her son.
Because in this hearing, I toldyou that the child was
conceived when I was 12 yearsold.
What we later proved in courtwas I hadn't even reached
puberty yet, I wasn't producingsemen.
I could not have birthed achild.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
Did you do a DNA test ?
Speaker 3 (21:11):
There was no DNA testing.
She declined.
He declined the son.
He said I know who my father is.
I don't want.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Because he established a relationship with.
He's already established arelationship with With someone
else who.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
his mother told him this is who your father is.
So he declined it twice.
He said no, I don't want to.
I'll give you this and tell youwhat she told me and this is
who my father is.
But neither one of them wantedto come to the actual hearing.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
My mind is all over the place.
You know some things.
You know what I mean I've heard, but then it's like other
pieces you know to the storyThroughout this process, though,
like how does your wife supportyou in the midst of?
Speaker 3 (22:04):
you know what I mean like all that is going on, so
now I got to take the glassesoff.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
Yeah, because now we're, because now we're taking
money out of the household andreally just giving it to
strangers.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
Honestly, Honestly, yeah, I mean, she's always
maintained like you need to takecare of that, like, first of
all, before we even knew that Iwasn't even eligible to produce
semen at the time.
She's like you need to figureout if this is your child.
So you know, I'm trying to findthem to figure it out, because
(22:35):
she's like, if he has your lastname and this is your child, we
need to figure this out.
But once I start going throughthe hearing process, she
initially and here's the thingshe actually works for the
courts.
So imagine me telling her childsupport is fraud.
(22:58):
This is what they're supposedto do, this is so.
It didn't go well initiallybecause she's like well, no, we
do everything by the book, thisis what it's supposed to be.
The state statute says that's astate statute that has nothing
to do with the federal law.
States statutes benefit who thestate?
So it didn't go well initially.
(23:20):
But as I start going throughthe process, she was supportive.
And once I was just coming,here's the evidence this is what
they were supposed to do, thisis what they did.
And now she's looking at itWait, no, that ain't right
because, no, that's not how it'ssupposed to go, what they're
supposed to do.
All I'm going to do is show youthe evidence on what it is that
(23:42):
they're supposed to do.
This is their own policy andthey're not following their own
policy, and this is what ittells them has to happen.
So she was supportive towardsthe middle part, going towards
the end.
What was she upset aboutinitially?
Speaker 2 (24:00):
The fact that you had a kid, or Nah, it was the fact.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
What she got upset was when we was getting married.
We were planning on a honeymoonout the country.
Got you, yes, you got you.
We done spent $3,800 to go toPunta Cana.
So now I applied for mypassport and they like yeah.
I'm thinking the passport isgoing to come Password.
(24:27):
Come on, shhh, rip it open,open it.
Child support I can't even geta passport, but now I have to
tell her I can't go to PuntaCana.
You can go, but I can't go.
So now she's like yo, you needto fix this, you need to fix it.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
So let me ask you a question so I can see how child
support is fraud in what youexperience, because that was
crazy.
You were being held accountablefor something you had no
knowledge of.
How does that tie into asituation where someone did
(25:05):
penetrate, they had sex, that'stheir child and they have to pay
child support?
Is that the same?
Speaker 3 (25:16):
Yes, the reason how that is because, first and
foremost, there's a UnitedStates code.
It's 28USC1691.
That's the first thing that Ilook at.
That says that all writtenprocesses issuing from a court
in the United States shall beunder the syllabic court and
signed by the clerk thereof.
What that means is it has tohave the syllabic court and it
(25:38):
must be signed by the countyclerk, not the deputy clerk,
inside of the court building.
So if those documents do nothave that, they're actually void
and they notice.
But the fact that they haveprima facie and you don't
challenge it, the court's takingit as true and correct.
So that's one.
(26:00):
Then there's two to where, likeI said, this is not a judicial
matter, it's administrativehearing.
They have to give you, you haveto give them consent to have
your case heard by anadministrative officer which is
an attorney.
They're not a judge.
They can't issue a moneyjudgment, but they have hearing
officers issuing money judgmentsin a, because a money judgment
is a judicial process.
(26:21):
They can't cross people that'sin the executive branch can't
partake in a judicial side.
Same thing.
So that aspect when I say childsupport is fraud, I mean
they're violating their ownpolicies.
So it doesn't matter whetheryou had sex with the mother.
It's your kid to answer yourquestion.
They're not following their ownpolicies and their own policy
(26:44):
states that is void.
And if you're enforcing a voidjudgment when you have policies
in place, so these things don'thappen, there's intent.
Intent is the root element offraud, so there has to be an
intent and this would.
If people always ask me, whatif they did everything correctly
(27:06):
?
What if it's under the seal?
What if it's signed by theclerk?
What if it's signed by anactual judge?
How is this still fraud?
The answer is simple.
The answer is very simplebecause they are incentivized.
They are receiving half abillion of dollars annually to
(27:28):
put people on child supportbased on their performance.
They're getting bonuses thecourts, the state and the actual
judges.
It goes into their retirementfund.
So that brings us to the 14thAmendment, which is due process.
No person shall be deprived oftheir life, liberty or property
(27:49):
without due process of law.
You have the right to be heardand a right to a fair trial.
So if you're in administrativehearing where the states are
incentivized, they're enforcingtheir own laws, they're creating
their own laws and they'rejudging you, finding you guilty
(28:10):
in their own administrativehearing and they're being
incentivized based on theirperformance of putting people on
child support.
That's what makes child supportin its entirety fraud.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
So what's your thought process around child
support?
So okay, I see the processesare faulty based on what you
just described.
I don't know, I don't havechildren, but your thought
process on the sense ofentitlement, like the child
support itself, how do you feelabout it?
Speaker 3 (28:43):
Entitlement.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
You know some people, they feel entitled to it and I
not even empathize like I mightcome across as being insensitive
to our women because I hear,like some of these stories and
the child support, that's waymore than what you need to take
care of the child, right?
You using that money for you.
So what is your thought processaround it?
Speaker 3 (29:07):
Well, entitlement.
That's a real, simple answer.
I'm going to just direct you toblessing versus freestone.
Blessing versus freestone is aUnited States Supreme Court case
where five women from Arizona,who children, were receiving
benefits from the state.
The state went after thefathers for child support.
(29:29):
It was collecting all of themoney.
It was adding interest on topof the money.
The interest went to the stateand the women said, well, you're
collecting this from our, youknow, from the from the fathers,
but we're only getting thisamount.
So where's the rest of themoney?
That's our money.
So they sued child support Inorder to keep the money.
(29:53):
Child support had to tell onthemselves.
They said child support wasnever intended to benefit the
child nor the custodial parent.
It was only intended to benefitthe state.
And child support there is no.
It literally says there's noentitlement to child support.
You have no rights to childsupport.
(30:15):
It's you're.
You're trading in anotherperson's rights to gain
privileges.
So to ask you a question thereis no entitlement to child
support because there's no right.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
So then, how can the courts continue to force that I
say force upon men and women?
Speaker 3 (30:35):
because they of course men and women both do
child support.
Primo Fosse, because if youdon't come in there to contest
it, the courts taking everythingthat's filed as true and
correct on his face.
So there's no innocent untilproven guilty.
You are guilty until you proveyour innocence.
That's how it works.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
So remember when we had that conversation, Because
it's another thing I want you toclear up too, because I know a
lot of people get representation.
Can you touch on, if you dodecide to get representation,
what that should look like andif not?
Obviously you talk about theprocess of representing yourself
, but speak on that because yousaid automatically if you see an
(31:17):
attorney, that means youalready lost.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
You already lost because child support is not.
Child support is voluntary.
Where's my camera?
This one, right here.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (31:31):
Child support is voluntary and I know that's
going to ruffle some feathers.
Child support is voluntary.
This is not my opinion.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
How can I tell people drive a slices of, put them in
jail and do all these thingsBecause they don't contest it?
Speaker 3 (31:45):
Because they don't contest it.
But now look, here's the thing.
There's 45 CFR 303.5, which isthe voluntary acknowledgement of
paternity programs.
Child support is voluntary.
So in order for a person toin,order for them to start a child
support case, paternity has tobe established.
And when paternity isestablished in a hospital by
(32:10):
acknowledgement of paternity,sign a birth certificate, or
you're given DNA or you're notshowing up to a hearing, at that
time they're supposed toprovide both parents the legal
consequences of establishingpaternity.
What are the legal consequences?
You just gave a few Jaillicense, suspension, passport
liens, bank levy, things of thatnature.
If they don't provide bothparents with that the legal
(32:32):
consequences and provide you theopportunity to speak with a
professional, because theypresume if we told you, if you
sign this document you can go tojail, license and things of
that nature, you're going to belike, wait a minute, maybe I
need to talk to somebody else, Iain't signing this.
So at that point, if they don'tprovide that information to
both parents, it's thedisclosures.
(32:53):
I'm sure everyone in herepurchased a car before they give
you that loan.
Those are the disclosures.
The same thing with childsupport.
If they don't give you thosedisclosures at that point.
Paternity was never establishedso therefore they can't even
move on to child support.
But to answer your questionMakes it fraud?
Yeah, because you have to.
(33:13):
When a person hires an attorney, you recognize their authority
giving them jurisdiction overyou, because it's called a
general appearance.
A general appearance says forany act that you make in this
court and you recognize ourauthority, you're given this
jurisdiction.
Because we never had it.
You have to consent becausechild support is voluntary.
(33:35):
How do you dispute that?
I made a special appearancewhich says I'm not here, I'm not
waiving any of my rights, I'mnot here to talk about money,
I'm only here to examine theevidence against me and that's
it.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
So, with everything that you just said, how is it
that so many people get caughtup in the system with child
support?
Speaker 3 (33:57):
Because they don't invoke their rights.
So it starts in family court.
Most men because it's mainlymen there's, it's only men what
I'm about to say because a woman, the child comes from them.
So we know that this is yourchild, because the child came
from you.
But men do not invoke theirparental rights stating I am a
(34:22):
custodial parent, I've neverabandoned my children, my
children are not dependent orneedy upon government assistance
.
I am present.
So if you don't invoke yourparental rights and you allow
them to call you a non-custodialparent, at that point they
presume that you've waived yourparental rights.
And that is your consent,because you didn't claim your
(34:46):
parental rights.
So we presume that you waivedthem.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
You know it's crazy.
Just to touch on a quick point,like the non-custodial, in a
lot of my personal situationseither the officers or whomever,
especially in dealing with thepolice one of the first things
they ask is well, who's thecustodial parent?
Speaker 3 (35:07):
That's the first thing they want to know, because
at that point yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
And then when I say, okay, well, it's mom, I even
have one officer to tell me whatshe could do, what she wanted
to do, she ain't got to.
Let you see, I was like, excuseme, no, ma'am, you ain't finna
say that on my phone, but thesepeople really.
And then they think they knowthe law.
(35:30):
And then they really don't knowthe law in the ways that you
know what I'm saying, becauseother things are up for
interpretation, right.
So they assume, based on this,that and the third, they can
just run it and do it how theywant.
But then my argument is well,why we got this paperwork?
Then you got to go with whatthis paperwork is saying, period
.
I can't deviate from it, right,unless there's like a different
(35:55):
type of agreement.
But in the event that you can'tagree, you fall back on your
paperwork.
But I can't tell you how manytimes I've shown up at the
school and don't fall.
Don't fall to be like we can'tget you.
You know and no, you can.
I know my rights as a father.
Now I got to master gas Becauseyou're not giving me medical,
you're not giving me educational, you're not sharing with me the
(36:18):
information that I'm privy toas a joint legal custodial
parent.
Now, the physical part issomething that's different, but
they will literally like, try toshut you down, and it used to
frustrate me so much, man, itmakes you feel like you, this
big bro, because them people sitbehind their desk and look you
(36:41):
straight in your face Like well,I got to retop the mom first
before I can know if you couldtake your job.
Speaker 3 (36:48):
And that's great.
They just called me.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
These folks just called me, said hey, you need to
go pick up someone from school.
He ain't feeling good.
Okay, cool, I'm here.
Well, hold on, because you'renot listed on it, and that's the
other part, which I ain't gonnaget into that right now.
But they'll be like you're notlisted as an adult that can pick
up your child so we gotta callmom.
We ain't do that at.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
And that's why I encourage everyone to join legal
.
Like you said, join legal justmeans you guys decide school and
health.
That's it 50-50,.
Yeah, that's it All.
Joint legal custody means Jointphysical custody is where both
parents are equal.
There's no primary, there's noprimary home.
(37:32):
The children reside here.
They reside at two differentlocations, but if one is a
primary, then the other is anoncustodial.
That means one is greater than,one is less than, but in that
you have to spend more time withyour children to obtain joint
physical custody.
There's over 100,000 followerson my Instagram platform and
(37:58):
most of them are fighting to beable to see their children.
They're fighting the courts toget more time.
Why does a father have to fightsome mothers to see their
offspring?
And it's because they getbonuses.
The more child support thatthey collect, the higher they
(38:19):
get bonus.
This is aside from your pay.
You're incentivized.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
How do they decide the amount of money that goes to
a child, cause you see, thereare people out here who get
pregnant, just to get a check,we know that.
How do they decide how muchmoney is awarded, cause exactly
what it is, it's not awarded tothat parent.
Speaker 3 (38:44):
So it goes off of the pay structure and the state
Cause certain states and I was.
I don't really want to get toodeep into a situation.
That's what.
As far as what, tyrese?
That's what he went to court,saying it's like yo, based on a
Georgia statute, I'm onlysupposed to pay this amount.
(39:05):
So that's what he took.
That's what he went back tocourt for.
It was saying look, georgiastatute said I'm only supposed
to pay this amount.
Why are you increasing thechild support to this amount?
And they was like well, becauseyour other child in Los Angeles
, this is what they're receiving.
So we're giving this to you.
You overstepping your boundaries, you're overstepping your
(39:28):
boundaries.
So, to answer your question,though it goes off of the pay
scale and they have, if a personwas to challenge it, they have
you have to bring in yourfinancial information.
At that point you're alreadyemitting your guilty.
(39:50):
You're already emitting guiltybecause now you're participating
into the program.
So, as far as like with thepayment, if you don't want to
support your offspring, youdon't claim your children in
family court.
They get to do what they wantto do.
(40:12):
They can take up to 75% of yourevery.
But in blessing versusfreestone, they said that every
check that they collect they'reonly entitled to provide the
other parent If it's aided.
If that person is receivinggovernment assistance, they're
(40:32):
only supposed to give thatperson 50, just say, for
instance, if they took $1,000.
Speaker 2 (40:40):
So when you say aided , that means like, well, food
stamps and okay, yeah, if it'saided.
Speaker 3 (40:45):
So they're only supposed to give the mother the
first $50 from that thousand.
So they keep 950 and they givethe mother 50.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
They keep women.
They keep, you mean the statekeep.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
The state yes, so the child, it's a child support
taking the check.
You might be giving thethousand, they getting 50.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
So they taking the money and just pocketing it.
I thought that was just like achannel where they navigate or
distribute or yeah, so that's ifit's aided.
Speaker 3 (41:12):
But if it's unaided just say, for instance, if a
person wants to go put someoneon child support and there's not
aided, they can take up to 75%,but usually the max that they
take is 66% to where the stateskeep 66% and they provide the
other parent.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
I don't think people know what child support really
is.
Because if you, I just don'tthink that, if they knew that
the state is gonna take aportion and pocket it, why would
you go that route?
Speaker 3 (41:44):
And that's why I yell it so loud.
I encourage men and women toread the entire case of blessing
versus restone, because theytold on themselves and they told
you that child support is notin a benefit of the child nor
the custodial parent.
It's only intended to benefitthe state.
Now I am a firm believer.
(42:05):
My tagline is take care of them, kids though, because this
ain't no get out of jail freecard.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
So I honestly believe if a person is not taking care
of their children, they deserveto be on child support, but
people take a parent to courtand put them on child support
just to take a dig.
Speaker 3 (42:25):
True, and that's why I tell people reclaim your power
, invoke your rights in familycourt, claim your parental
rights to where the other parentis actually irrelevant.
They can't you can't come to meand say, well, she did, or he
did.
Well, what did you do?
Did you go and invoke yourrights?
Did you file to be a jointcustodial parent?
Because if you didn't, then whyare we even having this
(42:47):
conversation.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
And a lot of people that need to hear is because
that's how a lot of people getcaught slipping too.
When you go through divorce ora break, lean on me it's like it
automatically kind of turnsinto mom being primary dad being
the the visiting parent orwhatever.
And if to his point, if youcould fresh out the gates right,
(43:08):
because this is this is newinformation.
You know what I mean.
I've been in the court systemfor the past 18 years or so and
I promise you, with a camera, ifI could have knew something, I
would have definitely did a lotof things.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
Is there a way like okay, say, you're an active
parent in your children's lives?
Is there a way where you canavoid paying not take care of
the kids, but avoid goingthrough the court and paying
child support?
Speaker 3 (43:42):
Yes, so you can create an agreement between
yourselves.
Speaker 1 (43:47):
What if they don't want to do it?
They just refuse.
Speaker 3 (43:50):
Then if they refuse, then if it becomes a legal
matter, even though it's notlegal, because that's the thing
you guys are before us, becauseyou're incompetent to create an
agreement between yourselves.
So now we have to step in andprovide our services, and for
our services, you got to pay.
Speaker 2 (44:13):
Yeah, and then here's another thing, right, because
unless you're dealing withsomebody, what is it?
The 4% of the world orsomething like that?
You know the super-duperwealthy Mm-hmm Like for a lot of
people that be going at men andmaking it a money issue.
Like, in the grand scheme ofthings, even if you were to get
(44:35):
$2,000, right, there's still alot of money.
When you start adding up rentor mortgage, car or insurance
utilities, all of these things,you still got to do something
for yourself.
Yeah, and I feel like a lot ofpeople get drove through the mud
like, oh, you a deadbeat, youthis, you that, and it's like,
bro, it ain't no amount of money.
That's sufficient, especiallywhen there's motions involved,
(45:00):
unless you, dr Dre or somebodylike that.
That's getting that type ofmoney where you literally got
somebody giving you 20, 30, ahundred grand a month and you
don't have to work and you canjust sit around, and that's
different, but so many peoplebeing taken through.
There.
You got good fathers that arepaying, but then they not seeing
, yeah, and the other part, too,is the importance of seeing,
(45:23):
because there are other fathersthat could do it in different
ways.
Money is important, but that'sanother thing he speaks to, too.
You can talk about that as well, because the part of taking
care of your kids, though, talkabout what you're doing with
your platform and how you'regetting guys to put their money
in different places or educatethem on different things they
(45:44):
could do where it is benefitingtheir kids.
Speaker 3 (45:47):
Right, because so the thing with child support child
support is supporting yourchildren emotionally, physically
, spiritually, mentally andfinancially.
Because, let's be real, thesekids cost.
It costs so what we do attangible equity, which is my
nonprofit to, where we educateboth parents of their parental
(46:10):
rights, and not only once theircase is getting dismissed.
So that's just say, forinstance, someone is sending
10,000 a month in child supportNow that that case is actually
dismissed, this ain't just freemoney.
Now no, you don't just stoptaking care of your kids.
So what we do, we educate themon different things to okay, now
(46:33):
you can put this 10,000 a month, you can put that in a trust
for your kids.
So now, once your kid grows up,now to 18, 25, you put in
10,000, if you want to justreduce it to 5,000, it's going
to an actual trust fund for yourchildren.
And because most men they saidI just want the money to go to
(46:53):
my kid anyway, it's going, it'sokay, so put that there.
And then we educate you on howto manage that money to where
it's put there.
So when your children become ofage, they have something in
place for them that myself Ididn't have once I turned 18.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
So I have a question have you heard of co-parenting
bird nesting, where the kidslive in one home and the parents
visit the kids in the familyhome?
How does that affect childsupport?
Oh no, that's different I don'twho was I talking to about that
where it's just they have ahome, where you don't take the
children out of the home theystay so they're not displaced.
I don't have the conversationwith.
(47:31):
I have a.
Okay, oh no, I got the research.
I had a conversation where thechildren was is in the home.
They're not displaced, but theparent one parent come and stay
a couple days, and then theother parent come and stay a
couple days, and then that waythe children are still there,
you know, they're still in theirown environment.
So, then, like once the parentis not in the home, like
(47:53):
whatever their life is asidefrom that, it is what it is and
saying for the other parent.
Speaker 3 (47:58):
Yeah, I like that.
I mean, my thing would be justfor the average working person
who can afford two homes Likethat's to where you know you're
here and you got a home just forthe kids.
Now I'm staying here.
I like the idea of it becausefor me, I know that once one
parent leaves the home, they'resaying that you've abandoned
(48:19):
your children.
Now, now let's just take itback to the.
When we're talking about childsupport, let's just give a brief
history.
Child support starts from titlefor a.
Title for a is a governmentgrant program where the
government gave states thismoney to help needy families in
1935.
(48:40):
So in 1935, if a man went towar, this was after the Great
Depression, when men went towork, I mean to war.
Women couldn't work in 1935.
So they needed this assistance.
So that's what title for a came.
That's how it came into play.
Taxpayers were saying, hey, whyare we giving all this money to
(49:01):
these needy families Oncethings change and once women
were able to work and vote andthings of that nature?
So in 1975, they started titlefor D, which is child support.
Which title for D is not sexy,it does not move the need or it
doesn't tap into your emotions.
Title for D is the program ischild support enforcement.
(49:22):
But when you hear child support, you like, oh wait, you don't
want to take care of your kids.
It like your debt beat.
Title for a is a grant.
What is a grant?
It's based on free money.
It's free money that you don'thave to pay back.
So if you're giving out freemoney from title for a that does
(49:42):
not have to be paid back, how?
Speaker 1 (49:44):
are you going after tax?
Speaker 3 (49:46):
How are you going after a knock a studio parent to
pay back money that was givenas a grant?
How are you obligated toparticipate in something that's
voluntary?
So these are the things thatpeople have to understand.
On how child support is fraud,like I, and as far as
abandonment, because if someoneseparates and the father leaves,
(50:10):
at that point they presume thatyou abandon your children If
you don't claim your parentalrights and I want to be a joint
physical custody custodialparents.
So I like the idea of what wasit bird nesting?
Speaker 1 (50:23):
It's called a bird.
Yeah, burp, burp, uh,co-parenting bird nesting.
Speaker 3 (50:28):
Yeah, I like that idea yeah because it keeps
there's no abandonment at thattime, so we're both equal.
There's no nine custodialparents, so I like it.
I like the idea of it.
Speaker 2 (50:39):
Speaking of ideas like in the perfect world for me
, let me just dream real quick.
First things first.
It should be mandatory that,women, there's some type of DNA
testing or something toestablish who the real father is
for us out the gate.
Speaker 3 (50:54):
It is in Florida.
Florida just put it startedOctober 1st.
Speaker 2 (50:58):
But being that you know, we up the street around
the corner, we ain't hit thatyet.
You know what I mean, so I'mjust going to plant this seed.
That will be one of the firstthings that I would like to see.
The second thing is I feel andbelieve that unless a father or
mother revokes their rights,that both parties should be
(51:19):
joint, legal and physical, outthe gate.
Unless a dad says that ain'twhat I want, or unless mom says
that ain't what I want, then ifthere's an actual, they can't
come to an agreement.
Remove the attorneys.
Get you a good old guardianmid-light them More cost
(51:39):
effective, and the guardian oflight on Chanel is a person that
solely represents the child.
So that means that no attorneylike it ain't no, my side, your
side, it's none of that.
Somebody that comes in and sayswhat's best for the child,
point blank, period and how thatperson.
Go to the judge and say this iswhat it is.
This is what we feel is thebest situation.
(52:02):
Now you got to get the rightpeople on debt In order to do
that but.
I feel like these are some ofthe things that could be so
beneficial to having the courtsbe ran a lot smoother, because
you got to think, like in one ofmy situations, it took a year
and a half just to get a date, ayear and a half of collected
(52:26):
contempt and all kind of stuffgoing on.
You know what I'm saying?
Just taking record of dealingwith all of that.
The year and a half messed herup.
She had to cough.
But when I just think about allof these things and then the
amount of money that's beingpaid in my personal situation,
when I look at what I paid over17 years or so you talking about
(52:51):
low end 700,000, 750,000 thatcould have went towards these
children, their benefits, theirwellness, anything like that you
know what I mean.
That's going on.
So I just hope and wish, becauseit's a man thing and the other
thing too is not as a blackthing, it's like it's men.
(53:14):
I'll never forget I was incourt one day.
I saw this Caucasian brother.
He didn't come up with whatevermoney he was supposed to them
folks saying he couldn't pick uphis phone and send a text,
nothing.
It's like they gave a handsignal and them folks came
behind him and locked him up onspot, which is another thing I
know you can speak on too,because again, it's not right,
(53:36):
it's fraud on that end too,because you're not supposed to
be able to.
Speaker 3 (53:39):
You can't go to jail for child support, because child
support is a debt.
There's no debt or prisons inthe United States.
Speaker 1 (53:46):
How do people get over and get away with this
though?
Speaker 3 (53:49):
Prima Fasi.
You know and there's somethingthat they have tricky things in
place.
Ignorance of the law is notillegal defense.
So if you're here representingyourself, we presume that you
did your own due diligence to beable to represent yourself.
And if you hired someone andthey didn't make a special
appearance on your behalf, yougave us jurisdiction.
(54:12):
Wow, Because they got to sayspecial appearance.
They have to say specialappearance, like there's the
FDCPA, which is the Fair DebtCredit Protection Act.
They don't recognize childsupport as a consumer debt.
But there's a Supreme Courtcase law called POTET versus
POTET where they said that youhave an obligation to support
(54:35):
your children, but once thatobligation is transformed into a
money judgment, where A isgoing after B for X amount of
dollars when they're taking yourcheck every two weeks or every
month or whatever that system isthat obligation is reduced to a
money judgment For a debt andit is unconstitutional for
(54:59):
anyone to go to jail for a debt.
That is not fraud.
The only way you can go to jailfor a debt is if you committed
fraud.
That's it.
Speaker 1 (55:12):
All right guys.
Well, I love you brother.
Speaker 2 (55:19):
Keep doing what you're doing, man, and I know
you're hustling and grinding anddoing all these things, man,
but again, successful.
Black brother married.
You got a unicorn story, nomatter if it was on and off.
It was still somebody that youmet high school around that time
, y'all rocking together, y'allraising your children together.
(55:42):
You're successful in business.
Your wife is doing her thing.
I just think it's good to seethat.
And God actually put this onyou, brother, because you're
going to bless a lot of people,because nobody's doing and even
if it is, it might be one otherperson or something like that
but this space, because you gotand that's the other thing too,
(56:02):
man, you got to be protected,bro, because this is you know
what I'm talking about, bro,because it's reaching into a
territory, man, where thepower's to be really looking
like hold up now, Because you'retapping into it to this space
that is coming into what?
Speaker 3 (56:22):
we're doing the money train on, and I mean many
people have got their casedismissed, but I don't know not
one other person who got theircase dismissed for extrinsic
fraud, like it literally says.
They committed fraud because Iprove I broke down their actual
system.
And one last thing I just wantto say because I know it affects
(56:45):
a lot of people as well childsupport should not, should not,
should not be on your creditreport Because it wasn't given
as there was no credittransaction.
Child support was notified bythe credit bureaus 13 years ago
that the laws have changed andif you, they left it up to child
(57:08):
support until we get everythingin place, we're leaving it up
to you.
Child support should not be onanyone's credit report.
So if your, if child support ison your credit report right now
, today, if you're watching itand it's on your credit report,
that's fraud, wow.
Speaker 1 (57:26):
Well, tell the people where they can find you.
Speaker 3 (57:29):
Everything is real simple.
Childsupportisfraudcom.
Child support is fraud onInstagram.
Child support is fraud onYouTube.
Childsupportisfraudcom.
Keep it real simple.
You know they try to put thehold on me on Instagram.
You know putting restrictionson me, but you know everything
(57:50):
is.
Child support is fraud.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (57:53):
I appreciate it, brother, because us we literally
can probably dive another 34 toman, because you got so much
game to give and there's so manyparents, especially fathers,
that need to hear this.
And again, like you said, it'snot just you know the fathers
that's going through it, it's,you know, women, you know just
on both sides.
But thank you, man, to keepdoing the work that you're doing
.
Thank you for blessing us withyour presence, man, all the way
(58:15):
from La La my dog from Comptonto the A yeah man, you know what
I'm saying Sooted and booted.
Speaker 3 (58:22):
I appreciate y'all for having me.
Speaker 2 (58:24):
You know I had to come right.
Speaker 3 (58:25):
I mean, you know the queen, she comes ready.
I said okay.
Speaker 2 (58:30):
I gotta you know.
Speaker 3 (58:31):
get in that mindset of you, stay a lot in love with
me, brother we appreciate you,man.
Speaker 2 (58:38):
Let's love relationships matter.
Speaker 1 (58:45):
I need you to understand relationships matter.
I'm Chanel Scott, the queen of relationship talk.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
I'm Josh Powell, two-time NBA champion.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
I've journeyed from trauma to healing.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
From the NBA to family, I've learned what really
matters.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
We've come together to unlock the secrets of
successful relationships.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
One conversation at a time.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
One conversation at a time.
Welcome to Relationships Matter, the podcast.
My name is Chanel Scott and Iam Josh Powell.
Guys, we have a special guesttoday, mr Lano TJ Tillman.
Child support is fraud.
That's what you know him bestfor.
(00:39):
But we're going to talk alittle bit about relationships
and we're going to transitioninto this whole idea that child
support is fraud.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Let's get to it, my dog.
Well, first and foremost, youwere the first guest to come on
here, my boy too, clay.
So I got to get a love man,because this is like we talking
(01:08):
about the brand.
My brother is crushing it and Ilove it, man.
You look very dapper, brother,and I just got to salute you,
man.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
I mean, I didn't come into playing no game, I know it
.
But at the same time, like thisis when I went in to represent
myself every hearing I wassuited in Buddha head to let
them know I'm here for businessand I didn't come into playing
no game.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
See everybody that see you man is obviously they
want to get to the businessfirst, but let's talk about the
man first, because that's themost important.
Let's talk like, becauseeverybody, I already know they
only want to know the business,right, right right right.
Let's talk about TJ.
You know what I mean.
Tell us a little bit about yourstory first.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
I'm TJ, just, first of all.
I mean my name is LionelTillman, tj Tillman, I'm a
junior, so my family has calledme TJ since I remember words.
So that's where the TJ comesfrom.
I grew up in Compton,california, went to school,
graduated from Compton HighSchool, community college, and
(02:18):
always had an entrepreneurialspirit.
I always wanted to work formyself.
But for me, as an individual,I'm an adult, great father,
great husband, or at least Ilike to think that.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Say that I'm a white character.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
But yeah, I'm an overall.
I'm just a genuine person, I'ma genuine spirit and I just like
to excel.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
How did you grow up?
Because I heard you say Compton.
So I don't want to assume, butat the same time I think it is
to be assumed.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Yeah, I mean for me, growing up in Compton, I was
involved with the gangs as ayoung age and unfortunately I
say this but I don't take pridein it but I was literally shot
at five times before I was 18years old.
As a child just living on thestreet that I had no chance.
(03:19):
I had no choice but to livehere because this is where my
mother and my grandmother reside, being on the street that you
shoot in marbles, you're ridingbikes, you're playing with your
friends.
I was shot at five times beforeI was an adult.
So, just coming up in thatenvironment, we had great times,
(03:42):
but for me, that's notsomething that I would ever want
my boys to have to experienceand I just feel like the path
that I'm on, that's my missionto make sure that they never
have to endure the things that Ihad to grow up, Because that's
(04:03):
not normal for a child, Right.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Right.
I ask that because it's settingthe tone, for I know you spoke
about your wife being married.
So, growing up in anenvironment like that, how do
you choose the proper partner?
Because I'm sure you got sometrust issues, probably a little
leery, maybe I'm just assumingbecause of how you grew up, the
things that you saw.
So talk about how that wentinto you choosing.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
My wife.
I met her she was 17.
I was 18.
We met at a Compton, had this.
Like I said, there was gang, sothey didn't like to put the
city together a lot, but at onepoint we had this mayor.
They put together these Comptontransit parties.
So every Saturday everybodycame in.
(04:51):
There was the fights.
But that's where I met my wifeat.
I was 18.
She was 17.
One of my friends, lil Mark, hesaid, hey, man, I got somebody
for you.
And he walking me over and whenI seen her I was like that's
her.
He's like yeah, I'm like yo.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
My god.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
He's like yeah, I talked to her cousin, but that's
how I met.
For us, it was the politics ofthe streets.
My family and her family, twodifferent sides of the city,
don't mesh at all, so for us toeven be together one of my
friends said this at the weddinghe actually on the mic it's
(05:35):
just to look around the room andsee the individuals that are in
this room for love, this is.
You can't tell me that Godisn't real.
And so she's a beautiful woman.
She takes great care of me andour children.
We've been married since what?
(05:58):
2016?
So what?
Yeah, We've been together offand on, the traditional man
doing man things, and she leftme several times.
But she made her way back andshe left me several times as a
(06:20):
young boy, just being a youngboy, going out there doing what
you want to do and, of course,as she say, what was done in the
dark, it comes to the light.
It always comes back around.
We're in a small city, soyou're talking to a whole other
girl, Her cousin and his friends.
(06:41):
They get to talking and it'slike ah, so she left me several
times because of me just talkingto other females, Just talking,
Just talking.
But, there was intimacy at some,but I'm just saying there was a
few of them, with just the factof you talking to another woman
(07:02):
and y'all dating.
Oh, I got to let you go.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
What do you think brings y'all back together,
though?
Because I know some people,when they hear these types of
stories, like man, I would havebeen like I'm straight, but
there's something, obviously,that kept y'all connected.
So what do you think that was?
Speaker 3 (07:20):
Honestly, I believe it was God.
She's my person From how we met.
They didn't have.
They only had three of them.
If I'm not mistaken, it onlylasted three weeks, because the
street things that goes on inthe city where it was fights,
(07:42):
and then later on, towards oncethey had a shooting, it was over
.
So it only happened three weeks.
So within that three weeks,here it is.
I met the person that I'm goingto be in a relationship with
for the rest of our lives.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
What about her?
Made her your person, though.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
It wasn't the, she was my piece.
All the other women that Idealt with, it was like when I
get with them it was just Iliked them for different things,
but whether they smokedcigarettes or it was just you
liked the woman for smokingcigarettes.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
No, no, no no.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
So I'm saying it was something about the other woman
that turned me off.
Okay, yes, With her she wasjust reserved she was different.
She was my piece.
When I was with her, it was acalm.
It was like this is my refuge,so to speak.
She was never the flashy in thestreets, she was a real
(08:54):
reserved woman.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Is this your first and only wife?
Speaker 3 (08:58):
My first and only yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Because I want to tie into the child support as fraud
, because you're still married?
Yes, you had to pay childsupport before.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
Before.
Yes, I did With this wife, no.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
Okay, with someone else.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
Yes, okay.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
Because you said y'all married at 17, 18?
.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
Well, no, I met her, I met her.
I met her, I was 18.
She was 17.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
She was married later on in life.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
Yes, so we married later on in life.
The child support aspect,that's a whole different story.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Go ahead you can see that you can y'all okay?
Speaker 1 (09:37):
so I want to get the timeline together so we can work
our way into this.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
So you met your now wife when you was 18 and she was
17.
And y'all dated when you was 18and she was 17.
But you have dated and hadchildren with someone in between
time before you married.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
Yes, okay, yes, all right.
So I met her when I was 18.
We didn't actually start dating.
I want to say she was maybe 23and I was 24, because at the
time I had a girlfriend, she hada boyfriend.
So we met.
But we're kids, we're talking.
(10:16):
There was no cell phones atthat time.
This is 1996.
Okay, so it's different.
So we got to talk on the housephone.
So during that time period thechild that I was on child
support for was conceived when Iwas 12 years old.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Wait a minute, right, and how old was the mother?
Speaker 3 (10:45):
She was 15.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
You was 12.
Oh, so this happened before youmet.
Yes, you're now white.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
Yes, yeah, okay, so keep going so met her.
This happened when I was 12years old.
Okay, Time goes on.
Long story short.
I found out about my childsupport case seven years after
it opened.
No-transcript.
Seven years after the childsupport case started, I found
(11:17):
out about it Because you was akid.
I was a kid and once I became anadult, like I said, I was
involved in the streets, so Iwas hustling, so I didn't have a
job.
Once I actually started tochange my life around, I got a
job.
Six months in, hr gave me acall and said it's payday.
I said hey, mr Tillman, we needto speak to you.
I come in.
They said well, we got anincome withholding order.
(11:39):
What is that?
She said well, it's agarnishment.
They're going to start takingyour garnishing, your checks,
effective immediately.
Who's going to start taking mymoney?
She said child support.
Child support, what do you meanchild support?
She said yeah, effectiveimmediately.
Here's the paper.
So I called them.
Child support says well, youhad six months to respond.
(11:59):
It's been seven years and sothere's nothing that can be done
.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Did you know you had this child?
Speaker 3 (12:06):
I knew the child was born.
Okay, yes, I've alwaysmaintained that it wasn't my
child because at this time, likeI said, I was 12 years old.
Now here's the whole I neverpenetrated the woman.
I see your eyes, it's going.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
It's like wait what do you mean?
This is one of those storieswhere you say, oh, he only put
the tip.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
Yeah, yeah, like we, we we try.
I mean, I was 12.
So I didn't know what I wasdoing.
I never penetrated the woman.
What I learned in eighth gradewe had a sixth education class,
to where, you know, a person canbecome pregnant from pre-comp.
(12:49):
Yeah, so at this time we're,you know, we're trying to figure
it out.
The girl she goes in my A.
There's nothing.
This is before I even find outabout child support.
I'm still a child.
So now I'm 13 years old, whatcan I do?
(13:10):
I can't contact you.
I don't have a phone to contactyou.
I don't know where the girl is.
She was my cousin's friend.
She disappeared.
That's the last we heard of it.
Yeah, until HR says hey, mrsTillman, you got child support.
And this is, like I said, thecase was going on for seven
years at this point.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
So then, what happened?
Speaker 3 (13:33):
So at that point I contact child support.
I go to them and they tell methere's nothing that can be done
.
You need to go seek legalrepresentation.
I go to the court.
The court tells me yeah,according to family code, you
had six months to respond.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
Your response is untimely, that's that Not taken
into consideration that you werea child.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
They didn't take any of that into consideration, and
you didn't it wasn't.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
I just want to clarify.
There was no relationshipbetween you and this 15 year old
girl.
It was just a situation whereit was one time.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
I met her that day.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Boy putting it that.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
I mean, she was my cousin's friend.
So it's ironic, like yesterday,my grandmother.
Well, today is my grandmother'sbirthday.
She passed away three years agoand her sister her birthday was
yesterday, which is my greatAunt Mabel.
At Mabel's house Everythinggoes, it's just.
It was just one of those housesmy mother said when they was
kids that was the house whereall the kids went to and all the
(14:31):
friends come.
People spend a night and theyend up living there.
It was, that was just theatmosphere at Aunt Mabel's house
.
And here I am, I'm spending thenight and you know my cousin's
friend, she's there and we triedand then that was the last, you
know, I heard of it until, yeah, years later.
(14:52):
So at that point this went onfor another 13 years that
nothing can be done.
So there's 12, so just to giveit a timeline, there's I find
out about the case seven yearsafter it happened, so it's
already seven years.
I talked to the court.
The court says, according tofamily code, there's nothing
(15:12):
that can be done.
That goes on for another 13years.
So now we have 20 years, but inbetween those 20, in between
those 13 years, now they'regoing to send my checks.
They put a lien on my namebecause I'm in arrears because I
found out about the case sevenyears after it opened.
So when I found out about it,I'm already in arrears.
$24,000 in a hole because theyprovided the woman cash aid,
(15:37):
food stamps, medi-cal.
So they're coming after me forall of the money that they
provided.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Did you ever meet the child?
Speaker 3 (15:45):
I did after he was an adult.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
Because he's only 12 years younger than you.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
Yeah, so I met.
I ended up meeting him.
My sister actually found himthrough Facebook, through the
process of me now taking childsupport to court to defend
myself, and when I spoke to himhe was like you know.
Initially he was like well, youknow, my mother told me that
when I was a kid that you weremy father, but later on in life
(16:18):
she told me who my real fatheris and this is who I know my
father to be Like.
That's my father.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
And not to mention getting signed a birth
certificate.
Speaker 3 (16:28):
I never signed a birth certificate, but she put
my name on a birth certificate,so that's how they came after me
.
And there's a when she get intothe child support of it.
If you don't contest it, theypresume that you agree and they
have something called primafacie.
So everyone has heard innocentuntil proven guilty.
(16:50):
Right, that's in a judicialmatter.
But child support is anadministrative process, so that
goes back into the separation ofpowers.
There's judicial branch,executive and legislative.
So when in child support theyhave prima facie, that means
that they take everything thatis filed to be true and correct
(17:13):
until you provide evidence toshow that it's not so.
If you don't contest it,they're not doing any checks, no
balances, that's just what itis.
You have to actually contest itin order to provide evidence to
show that what was filed wasnot done correctly.
So during those 13 years they'retaking my money, but they're
(17:35):
taking my license and every I'mpaying them an additional $50 a
month so I can keep my license.
But every year my license gotsuspended for a system error
every year.
So every year I now have to paythem an additional $50 to
release my license, on top ofthe 50 that I'm paying them to
(17:55):
keep it on top of me having topay the DMV $75 to reinstate my
license every time.
Now, here we go in this 13years and I'm just frustrated
and I'm like, why do we have tokeep going through this?
Like, why do y'all keep tellingme it's a system error?
And I'm, like man, I don't evenknow why I'm going through this
(18:16):
anyway because, like man, thisis fraud.
Like I didn't even have sexwith the girl and the lady said
fraud.
What do you mean?
It's fraud.
You got served.
I said wait, I got served.
She said yes, I said I gotserved.
She said yes.
I said well, tell me, what daydid I get served?
Because I've been with me everyday of my life, I know I didn't
(18:38):
get served.
And she said okay, well, holdon, I'll tell you exactly what
day she placed me on hold.
She come back.
She says I'm sorry, mr Tillman,we don't have your signature.
I said I know you don't becauseI know I didn't get served.
She said well, that don'tmatter anyway, you volunteered
into the program.
I did what?
(18:58):
When did I volunteer?
She said well, yeah, youvolunteered into the program.
I said, okay, well, tell me whatday I volunteered.
She placed me on hold.
She come back.
I'm sorry, mr Tillman, we donot have your signature.
So from this point, she told methat I had been served.
She told me that they had mysignature, which she just told
(19:18):
me that they don't.
So now I'm asking to speak tothe supervisor and things of
that nature.
They get me to the unbuzzdepartment, which is like the
eternal affairs for childsupport.
Ultimately, they didn't doanything and I end up taking
them to court once I start doingmore research, because at that
(19:39):
point I said, okay, well, whatelse am I supposed to do?
What else are they supposed todo?
And that's when I started doingmy research and studying their
policy to see what was theirpolicy on how they were to
establish these cases, and Itook them to court and I
represented myself from twoyears from that point, Wow, did
you ever see the mother of thechild again?
(20:00):
No, now she is a mother of 29children.
See her, they knew it.
I protected them FOREVER.
No, no, she never showed up tocourt.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
They had but she was collecting money.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
She was collecting money, but she never showed up
to court.
They contacted her many timesand told her to come to court.
We had maybe, like I want tosay it was like 14 hearings
within a two year period.
She never showed up to one, andI actually, so I provided Once.
(20:29):
Her son sent me a text messagesaying that you know what she
told him.
She contacted child support andsaid I'm not showing up, I
don't want to, I'm not coming atall.
Y'all can do whatever y'allwant to do, I'm not coming.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
I noticed you said her son so.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
To this day.
You don't.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
Well, because now here's the thing I said her son.
Because in this hearing, I toldyou that the child was
conceived when I was 12 yearsold.
What we later proved in courtwas I hadn't even reached
puberty yet, I wasn't producingsemen.
I could not have birthed achild.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
Did you do a DNA test ?
Speaker 3 (21:11):
There was no DNA testing.
She declined.
He declined the son.
He said I know who my father is.
I don't want.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Because he established a relationship with.
He's already established arelationship with With someone
else who.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
his mother told him this is who your father is.
So he declined it twice.
He said no, I don't want to.
I'll give you this and tell youwhat she told me and this is
who my father is.
But neither one of them wantedto come to the actual hearing.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
My mind is all over the place.
You know some things.
You know what I mean I've heard, but then it's like other
pieces you know to the storyThroughout this process, though,
like how does your wife supportyou in the midst of?
Speaker 3 (22:04):
you know what I mean like all that is going on, so
now I got to take the glassesoff.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
Yeah, because now we're, because now we're taking
money out of the household andreally just giving it to
strangers.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
Honestly, Honestly, yeah, I mean, she's always
maintained like you need to takecare of that, like, first of
all, before we even knew that Iwasn't even eligible to produce
semen at the time.
She's like you need to figureout if this is your child.
So you know, I'm trying to findthem to figure it out, because
(22:35):
she's like, if he has your lastname and this is your child, we
need to figure this out.
But once I start going throughthe hearing process, she
initially and here's the thingshe actually works for the
courts.
So imagine me telling her childsupport is fraud.
(22:58):
This is what they're supposedto do, this is so.
It didn't go well initiallybecause she's like well, no, we
do everything by the book, thisis what it's supposed to be.
The state statute says that's astate statute that has nothing
to do with the federal law.
States statutes benefit who thestate?
So it didn't go well initially.
(23:20):
But as I start going throughthe process, she was supportive.
And once I was just coming,here's the evidence this is what
they were supposed to do, thisis what they did.
And now she's looking at itWait, no, that ain't right
because, no, that's not how it'ssupposed to go, what they're
supposed to do.
All I'm going to do is show youthe evidence on what it is that
(23:42):
they're supposed to do.
This is their own policy andthey're not following their own
policy, and this is what ittells them has to happen.
So she was supportive towardsthe middle part, going towards
the end.
What was she upset aboutinitially?
Speaker 2 (24:00):
The fact that you had a kid, or Nah, it was the fact.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
What she got upset was when we was getting married.
We were planning on a honeymoonout the country.
Got you, yes, you got you.
We done spent $3,800 to go toPunta Cana.
So now I applied for mypassport and they like yeah.
I'm thinking the passport isgoing to come Password.
(24:27):
Come on, shhh, rip it open,open it.
Child support I can't even geta passport, but now I have to
tell her I can't go to PuntaCana.
You can go, but I can't go.
So now she's like yo, you needto fix this, you need to fix it.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
So let me ask you a question so I can see how child
support is fraud in what youexperience, because that was
crazy.
You were being held accountablefor something you had no
knowledge of.
How does that tie into asituation where someone did
(25:05):
penetrate, they had sex, that'stheir child and they have to pay
child support?
Is that the same?
Speaker 3 (25:16):
Yes, the reason how that is because, first and
foremost, there's a UnitedStates code.
It's 28USC1691.
That's the first thing that Ilook at.
That says that all writtenprocesses issuing from a court
in the United States shall beunder the syllabic court and
signed by the clerk thereof.
What that means is it has tohave the syllabic court and it
(25:38):
must be signed by the countyclerk, not the deputy clerk,
inside of the court building.
So if those documents do nothave that, they're actually void
and they notice.
But the fact that they haveprima facie and you don't
challenge it, the court's takingit as true and correct.
So that's one.
(26:00):
Then there's two to where, likeI said, this is not a judicial
matter, it's administrativehearing.
They have to give you, you haveto give them consent to have
your case heard by anadministrative officer which is
an attorney.
They're not a judge.
They can't issue a moneyjudgment, but they have hearing
officers issuing money judgmentsin a, because a money judgment
is a judicial process.
(26:21):
They can't cross people that'sin the executive branch can't
partake in a judicial side.
Same thing.
So that aspect when I say childsupport is fraud, I mean
they're violating their ownpolicies.
So it doesn't matter whetheryou had sex with the mother.
It's your kid to answer yourquestion.
They're not following their ownpolicies and their own policy
(26:44):
states that is void.
And if you're enforcing a voidjudgment when you have policies
in place, so these things don'thappen, there's intent.
Intent is the root element offraud, so there has to be an
intent and this would.
If people always ask me, whatif they did everything correctly
(27:06):
?
What if it's under the seal?
What if it's signed by theclerk?
What if it's signed by anactual judge?
How is this still fraud?
The answer is simple.
The answer is very simplebecause they are incentivized.
They are receiving half abillion of dollars annually to
(27:28):
put people on child supportbased on their performance.
They're getting bonuses thecourts, the state and the actual
judges.
It goes into their retirementfund.
So that brings us to the 14thAmendment, which is due process.
No person shall be deprived oftheir life, liberty or property
(27:49):
without due process of law.
You have the right to be heardand a right to a fair trial.
So if you're in administrativehearing where the states are
incentivized, they're enforcingtheir own laws, they're creating
their own laws and they'rejudging you, finding you guilty
(28:10):
in their own administrativehearing and they're being
incentivized based on theirperformance of putting people on
child support.
That's what makes child supportin its entirety fraud.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
So what's your thought process around child
support?
So okay, I see the processesare faulty based on what you
just described.
I don't know, I don't havechildren, but your thought
process on the sense ofentitlement, like the child
support itself, how do you feelabout it?
Speaker 3 (28:43):
Entitlement.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
You know some people, they feel entitled to it and I
not even empathize like I mightcome across as being insensitive
to our women because I hear,like some of these stories and
the child support, that's waymore than what you need to take
care of the child, right?
You using that money for you.
So what is your thought processaround it?
Speaker 3 (29:07):
Well, entitlement.
That's a real, simple answer.
I'm going to just direct you toblessing versus freestone.
Blessing versus freestone is aUnited States Supreme Court case
where five women from Arizona,who children, were receiving
benefits from the state.
The state went after thefathers for child support.
(29:29):
It was collecting all of themoney.
It was adding interest on topof the money.
The interest went to the stateand the women said, well, you're
collecting this from our, youknow, from the from the fathers,
but we're only getting thisamount.
So where's the rest of themoney?
That's our money.
So they sued child support Inorder to keep the money.
(29:53):
Child support had to tell onthemselves.
They said child support wasnever intended to benefit the
child nor the custodial parent.
It was only intended to benefitthe state.
And child support there is no.
It literally says there's noentitlement to child support.
You have no rights to childsupport.
(30:15):
It's you're.
You're trading in anotherperson's rights to gain
privileges.
So to ask you a question thereis no entitlement to child
support because there's no right.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
So then, how can the courts continue to force that I
say force upon men and women?
Speaker 3 (30:35):
because they of course men and women both do
child support.
Primo Fosse, because if youdon't come in there to contest
it, the courts taking everythingthat's filed as true and
correct on his face.
So there's no innocent untilproven guilty.
You are guilty until you proveyour innocence.
That's how it works.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
So remember when we had that conversation, Because
it's another thing I want you toclear up too, because I know a
lot of people get representation.
Can you touch on, if you dodecide to get representation,
what that should look like andif not?
Obviously you talk about theprocess of representing yourself
, but speak on that because yousaid automatically if you see an
(31:17):
attorney, that means youalready lost.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
You already lost because child support is not.
Child support is voluntary.
Where's my camera?
This one, right here.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (31:31):
Child support is voluntary and I know that's
going to ruffle some feathers.
Child support is voluntary.
This is not my opinion.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
How can I tell people drive a slices of, put them in
jail and do all these thingsBecause they don't contest it?
Speaker 3 (31:45):
Because they don't contest it.
But now look, here's the thing.
There's 45 CFR 303.5, which isthe voluntary acknowledgement of
paternity programs.
Child support is voluntary.
So in order for a person toin,order for them to start a child
support case, paternity has tobe established.
And when paternity isestablished in a hospital by
(32:10):
acknowledgement of paternity,sign a birth certificate, or
you're given DNA or you're notshowing up to a hearing, at that
time they're supposed toprovide both parents the legal
consequences of establishingpaternity.
What are the legal consequences?
You just gave a few Jaillicense, suspension, passport
liens, bank levy, things of thatnature.
If they don't provide bothparents with that the legal
(32:32):
consequences and provide you theopportunity to speak with a
professional, because theypresume if we told you, if you
sign this document you can go tojail, license and things of
that nature, you're going to belike, wait a minute, maybe I
need to talk to somebody else, Iain't signing this.
So at that point, if they don'tprovide that information to
both parents, it's thedisclosures.
(32:53):
I'm sure everyone in herepurchased a car before they give
you that loan.
Those are the disclosures.
The same thing with childsupport.
If they don't give you thosedisclosures at that point.
Paternity was never establishedso therefore they can't even
move on to child support.
But to answer your questionMakes it fraud?
Yeah, because you have to.
(33:13):
When a person hires an attorney, you recognize their authority
giving them jurisdiction overyou, because it's called a
general appearance.
A general appearance says forany act that you make in this
court and you recognize ourauthority, you're given this
jurisdiction.
Because we never had it.
You have to consent becausechild support is voluntary.
(33:35):
How do you dispute that?
I made a special appearancewhich says I'm not here, I'm not
waiving any of my rights, I'mnot here to talk about money,
I'm only here to examine theevidence against me and that's
it.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
So, with everything that you just said, how is it
that so many people get caughtup in the system with child
support?
Speaker 3 (33:57):
Because they don't invoke their rights.
So it starts in family court.
Most men because it's mainlymen there's, it's only men what
I'm about to say because a woman, the child comes from them.
So we know that this is yourchild, because the child came
from you.
But men do not invoke theirparental rights stating I am a
(34:22):
custodial parent, I've neverabandoned my children, my
children are not dependent orneedy upon government assistance
.
I am present.
So if you don't invoke yourparental rights and you allow
them to call you a non-custodialparent, at that point they
presume that you've waived yourparental rights.
And that is your consent,because you didn't claim your
(34:46):
parental rights.
So we presume that you waivedthem.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
You know it's crazy.
Just to touch on a quick point,like the non-custodial, in a
lot of my personal situationseither the officers or whomever,
especially in dealing with thepolice one of the first things
they ask is well, who's thecustodial parent?
Speaker 3 (35:07):
That's the first thing they want to know, because
at that point yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
And then when I say, okay, well, it's mom, I even
have one officer to tell me whatshe could do, what she wanted
to do, she ain't got to.
Let you see, I was like, excuseme, no, ma'am, you ain't finna
say that on my phone, but thesepeople really.
And then they think they knowthe law.
(35:30):
And then they really don't knowthe law in the ways that you
know what I'm saying, becauseother things are up for
interpretation, right.
So they assume, based on this,that and the third, they can
just run it and do it how theywant.
But then my argument is well,why we got this paperwork?
Then you got to go with whatthis paperwork is saying, period
.
I can't deviate from it, right,unless there's like a different
(35:55):
type of agreement.
But in the event that you can'tagree, you fall back on your
paperwork.
But I can't tell you how manytimes I've shown up at the
school and don't fall.
Don't fall to be like we can'tget you.
You know and no, you can.
I know my rights as a father.
Now I got to master gas Becauseyou're not giving me medical,
you're not giving me educational, you're not sharing with me the
(36:18):
information that I'm privy toas a joint legal custodial
parent.
Now, the physical part issomething that's different, but
they will literally like, try toshut you down, and it used to
frustrate me so much, man, itmakes you feel like you, this
big bro, because them people sitbehind their desk and look you
(36:41):
straight in your face Like well,I got to retop the mom first
before I can know if you couldtake your job.
Speaker 3 (36:48):
And that's great.
They just called me.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
These folks just called me, said hey, you need to
go pick up someone from school.
He ain't feeling good.
Okay, cool, I'm here.
Well, hold on, because you'renot listed on it, and that's the
other part, which I ain't gonnaget into that right now.
But they'll be like you're notlisted as an adult that can pick
up your child so we gotta callmom.
We ain't do that at.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
And that's why I encourage everyone to join legal
.
Like you said, join legal justmeans you guys decide school and
health.
That's it 50-50,.
Yeah, that's it All.
Joint legal custody means Jointphysical custody is where both
parents are equal.
There's no primary, there's noprimary home.
(37:32):
The children reside here.
They reside at two differentlocations, but if one is a
primary, then the other is anoncustodial.
That means one is greater than,one is less than, but in that
you have to spend more time withyour children to obtain joint
physical custody.
There's over 100,000 followerson my Instagram platform and
(37:58):
most of them are fighting to beable to see their children.
They're fighting the courts toget more time.
Why does a father have to fightsome mothers to see their
offspring?
And it's because they getbonuses.
The more child support thatthey collect, the higher they
(38:19):
get bonus.
This is aside from your pay.
You're incentivized.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
How do they decide the amount of money that goes to
a child, cause you see, thereare people out here who get
pregnant, just to get a check,we know that.
How do they decide how muchmoney is awarded, cause exactly
what it is, it's not awarded tothat parent.
Speaker 3 (38:44):
So it goes off of the pay structure and the state
Cause certain states and I was.
I don't really want to get toodeep into a situation.
That's what.
As far as what, tyrese?
That's what he went to court,saying it's like yo, based on a
Georgia statute, I'm onlysupposed to pay this amount.
(39:05):
So that's what he took.
That's what he went back tocourt for.
It was saying look, georgiastatute said I'm only supposed
to pay this amount.
Why are you increasing thechild support to this amount?
And they was like well, becauseyour other child in Los Angeles
, this is what they're receiving.
So we're giving this to you.
You overstepping your boundaries, you're overstepping your
(39:28):
boundaries.
So, to answer your question,though it goes off of the pay
scale and they have, if a personwas to challenge it, they have
you have to bring in yourfinancial information.
At that point you're alreadyemitting your guilty.
(39:50):
You're already emitting guiltybecause now you're participating
into the program.
So, as far as like with thepayment, if you don't want to
support your offspring, youdon't claim your children in
family court.
They get to do what they wantto do.
(40:12):
They can take up to 75% of yourevery.
But in blessing versusfreestone, they said that every
check that they collect they'reonly entitled to provide the
other parent If it's aided.
If that person is receivinggovernment assistance, they're
(40:32):
only supposed to give thatperson 50, just say, for
instance, if they took $1,000.
Speaker 2 (40:40):
So when you say aided , that means like, well, food
stamps and okay, yeah, if it'saided.
Speaker 3 (40:45):
So they're only supposed to give the mother the
first $50 from that thousand.
So they keep 950 and they givethe mother 50.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
They keep women.
They keep, you mean the statekeep.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
The state yes, so the child, it's a child support
taking the check.
You might be giving thethousand, they getting 50.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
So they taking the money and just pocketing it.
I thought that was just like achannel where they navigate or
distribute or yeah, so that's ifit's aided.
Speaker 3 (41:12):
But if it's unaided just say, for instance, if a
person wants to go put someoneon child support and there's not
aided, they can take up to 75%,but usually the max that they
take is 66% to where the stateskeep 66% and they provide the
other parent.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
I don't think people know what child support really
is.
Because if you, I just don'tthink that, if they knew that
the state is gonna take aportion and pocket it, why would
you go that route?
Speaker 3 (41:44):
And that's why I yell it so loud.
I encourage men and women toread the entire case of blessing
versus restone, because theytold on themselves and they told
you that child support is notin a benefit of the child nor
the custodial parent.
It's only intended to benefitthe state.
Now I am a firm believer.
(42:05):
My tagline is take care of them, kids though, because this
ain't no get out of jail freecard.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
So I honestly believe if a person is not taking care
of their children, they deserveto be on child support, but
people take a parent to courtand put them on child support
just to take a dig.
Speaker 3 (42:25):
True, and that's why I tell people reclaim your power
, invoke your rights in familycourt, claim your parental
rights to where the other parentis actually irrelevant.
They can't you can't come to meand say, well, she did, or he
did.
Well, what did you do?
Did you go and invoke yourrights?
Did you file to be a jointcustodial parent?
Because if you didn't, then whyare we even having this
(42:47):
conversation.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
And a lot of people that need to hear is because
that's how a lot of people getcaught slipping too.
When you go through divorce ora break, lean on me it's like it
automatically kind of turnsinto mom being primary dad being
the the visiting parent orwhatever.
And if to his point, if youcould fresh out the gates right,
(43:08):
because this is this is newinformation.
You know what I mean.
I've been in the court systemfor the past 18 years or so and
I promise you, with a camera, ifI could have knew something, I
would have definitely did a lotof things.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
Is there a way like okay, say, you're an active
parent in your children's lives?
Is there a way where you canavoid paying not take care of
the kids, but avoid goingthrough the court and paying
child support?
Speaker 3 (43:42):
Yes, so you can create an agreement between
yourselves.
Speaker 1 (43:47):
What if they don't want to do it?
They just refuse.
Speaker 3 (43:50):
Then if they refuse, then if it becomes a legal
matter, even though it's notlegal, because that's the thing
you guys are before us, becauseyou're incompetent to create an
agreement between yourselves.
So now we have to step in andprovide our services, and for
our services, you got to pay.
Speaker 2 (44:13):
Yeah, and then here's another thing, right, because
unless you're dealing withsomebody, what is it?
The 4% of the world orsomething like that?
You know the super-duperwealthy Mm-hmm Like for a lot of
people that be going at men andmaking it a money issue.
Like, in the grand scheme ofthings, even if you were to get
(44:35):
$2,000, right, there's still alot of money.
When you start adding up rentor mortgage, car or insurance
utilities, all of these things,you still got to do something
for yourself.
Yeah, and I feel like a lot ofpeople get drove through the mud
like, oh, you a deadbeat, youthis, you that, and it's like,
bro, it ain't no amount of money.
That's sufficient, especiallywhen there's motions involved,
(45:00):
unless you, dr Dre or somebodylike that.
That's getting that type ofmoney where you literally got
somebody giving you 20, 30, ahundred grand a month and you
don't have to work and you canjust sit around, and that's
different, but so many peoplebeing taken through.
There.
You got good fathers that arepaying, but then they not seeing
, yeah, and the other part, too,is the importance of seeing,
(45:23):
because there are other fathersthat could do it in different
ways.
Money is important, but that'sanother thing he speaks to, too.
You can talk about that as well, because the part of taking
care of your kids, though, talkabout what you're doing with
your platform and how you'regetting guys to put their money
in different places or educatethem on different things they
(45:44):
could do where it is benefitingtheir kids.
Speaker 3 (45:47):
Right, because so the thing with child support child
support is supporting yourchildren emotionally, physically
, spiritually, mentally andfinancially.
Because, let's be real, thesekids cost.
It costs so what we do attangible equity, which is my
nonprofit to, where we educateboth parents of their parental
(46:10):
rights, and not only once theircase is getting dismissed.
So that's just say, forinstance, someone is sending
10,000 a month in child supportNow that that case is actually
dismissed, this ain't just freemoney.
Now no, you don't just stoptaking care of your kids.
So what we do, we educate themon different things to okay, now
(46:33):
you can put this 10,000 a month, you can put that in a trust
for your kids.
So now, once your kid grows up,now to 18, 25, you put in
10,000, if you want to justreduce it to 5,000, it's going
to an actual trust fund for yourchildren.
And because most men they saidI just want the money to go to
(46:53):
my kid anyway, it's going, it'sokay, so put that there.
And then we educate you on howto manage that money to where
it's put there.
So when your children become ofage, they have something in
place for them that myself Ididn't have once I turned 18.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
So I have a question have you heard of co-parenting
bird nesting, where the kidslive in one home and the parents
visit the kids in the familyhome?
How does that affect childsupport?
Oh no, that's different I don'twho was I talking to about that
where it's just they have ahome, where you don't take the
children out of the home theystay so they're not displaced.
I don't have the conversationwith.
(47:31):
I have a.
Okay, oh no, I got the research.
I had a conversation where thechildren was is in the home.
They're not displaced, but theparent one parent come and stay
a couple days, and then theother parent come and stay a
couple days, and then that waythe children are still there,
you know, they're still in theirown environment.
So, then, like once the parentis not in the home, like
(47:53):
whatever their life is asidefrom that, it is what it is and
saying for the other parent.
Speaker 3 (47:58):
Yeah, I like that.
I mean, my thing would be justfor the average working person
who can afford two homes Likethat's to where you know you're
here and you got a home just forthe kids.
Now I'm staying here.
I like the idea of it becausefor me, I know that once one
parent leaves the home, they'resaying that you've abandoned
(48:19):
your children.
Now, now let's just take itback to the.
When we're talking about childsupport, let's just give a brief
history.
Child support starts from titlefor a.
Title for a is a governmentgrant program where the
government gave states thismoney to help needy families in
1935.
(48:40):
So in 1935, if a man went towar, this was after the Great
Depression, when men went towork, I mean to war.
Women couldn't work in 1935.
So they needed this assistance.
So that's what title for a came.
That's how it came into play.
Taxpayers were saying, hey, whyare we giving all this money to
(49:01):
these needy families Oncethings change and once women
were able to work and vote andthings of that nature?
So in 1975, they started titlefor D, which is child support.
Which title for D is not sexy,it does not move the need or it
doesn't tap into your emotions.
Title for D is the program ischild support enforcement.
(49:22):
But when you hear child support, you like, oh wait, you don't
want to take care of your kids.
It like your debt beat.
Title for a is a grant.
What is a grant?
It's based on free money.
It's free money that you don'thave to pay back.
So if you're giving out freemoney from title for a that does
(49:42):
not have to be paid back, how?
Speaker 1 (49:44):
are you going after tax?
Speaker 3 (49:46):
How are you going after a knock a studio parent to
pay back money that was givenas a grant?
How are you obligated toparticipate in something that's
voluntary?
So these are the things thatpeople have to understand.
On how child support is fraud,like I, and as far as
abandonment, because if someoneseparates and the father leaves,
(50:10):
at that point they presume thatyou abandon your children If
you don't claim your parentalrights and I want to be a joint
physical custody custodialparents.
So I like the idea of what wasit bird nesting?
Speaker 1 (50:23):
It's called a bird.
Yeah, burp, burp, uh,co-parenting bird nesting.
Speaker 3 (50:28):
Yeah, I like that idea yeah because it keeps
there's no abandonment at thattime, so we're both equal.
There's no nine custodialparents, so I like it.
I like the idea of it.
Speaker 2 (50:39):
Speaking of ideas like in the perfect world for me
, let me just dream real quick.
First things first.
It should be mandatory that,women, there's some type of DNA
testing or something toestablish who the real father is
for us out the gate.
Speaker 3 (50:54):
It is in Florida.
Florida just put it startedOctober 1st.
Speaker 2 (50:58):
But being that you know, we up the street around
the corner, we ain't hit thatyet.
You know what I mean, so I'mjust going to plant this seed.
That will be one of the firstthings that I would like to see.
The second thing is I feel andbelieve that unless a father or
mother revokes their rights,that both parties should be
(51:19):
joint, legal and physical, outthe gate.
Unless a dad says that ain'twhat I want, or unless mom says
that ain't what I want, then ifthere's an actual, they can't
come to an agreement.
Remove the attorneys.
Get you a good old guardianmid-light them More cost
(51:39):
effective, and the guardian oflight on Chanel is a person that
solely represents the child.
So that means that no attorneylike it ain't no, my side, your
side, it's none of that.
Somebody that comes in and sayswhat's best for the child,
point blank, period and how thatperson.
Go to the judge and say this iswhat it is.
This is what we feel is thebest situation.
(52:02):
Now you got to get the rightpeople on debt In order to do
that but.
I feel like these are some ofthe things that could be so
beneficial to having the courtsbe ran a lot smoother, because
you got to think, like in one ofmy situations, it took a year
and a half just to get a date, ayear and a half of collected
(52:26):
contempt and all kind of stuffgoing on.
You know what I'm saying?
Just taking record of dealingwith all of that.
The year and a half messed herup.
She had to cough.
But when I just think about allof these things and then the
amount of money that's beingpaid in my personal situation,
when I look at what I paid over17 years or so you talking about
(52:51):
low end 700,000, 750,000 thatcould have went towards these
children, their benefits, theirwellness, anything like that you
know what I mean.
That's going on.
So I just hope and wish, becauseit's a man thing and the other
thing too is not as a blackthing, it's like it's men.
(53:14):
I'll never forget I was incourt one day.
I saw this Caucasian brother.
He didn't come up with whatevermoney he was supposed to them
folks saying he couldn't pick uphis phone and send a text,
nothing.
It's like they gave a handsignal and them folks came
behind him and locked him up onspot, which is another thing I
know you can speak on too,because again, it's not right,
(53:36):
it's fraud on that end too,because you're not supposed to
be able to.
Speaker 3 (53:39):
You can't go to jail for child support, because child
support is a debt.
There's no debt or prisons inthe United States.
Speaker 1 (53:46):
How do people get over and get away with this
though?
Speaker 3 (53:49):
Prima Fasi.
You know and there's somethingthat they have tricky things in
place.
Ignorance of the law is notillegal defense.
So if you're here representingyourself, we presume that you
did your own due diligence to beable to represent yourself.
And if you hired someone andthey didn't make a special
appearance on your behalf, yougave us jurisdiction.
(54:12):
Wow, Because they got to sayspecial appearance.
They have to say specialappearance, like there's the
FDCPA, which is the Fair DebtCredit Protection Act.
They don't recognize childsupport as a consumer debt.
But there's a Supreme Courtcase law called POTET versus
POTET where they said that youhave an obligation to support
(54:35):
your children, but once thatobligation is transformed into a
money judgment, where A isgoing after B for X amount of
dollars when they're taking yourcheck every two weeks or every
month or whatever that system isthat obligation is reduced to a
money judgment For a debt andit is unconstitutional for
(54:59):
anyone to go to jail for a debt.
That is not fraud.
The only way you can go to jailfor a debt is if you committed
fraud.
That's it.
Speaker 1 (55:12):
All right guys.
Well, I love you brother.
Speaker 2 (55:19):
Keep doing what you're doing, man, and I know
you're hustling and grinding anddoing all these things, man,
but again, successful.
Black brother married.
You got a unicorn story, nomatter if it was on and off.
It was still somebody that youmet high school around that time
, y'all rocking together, y'allraising your children together.
(55:42):
You're successful in business.
Your wife is doing her thing.
I just think it's good to seethat.
And God actually put this onyou, brother, because you're
going to bless a lot of people,because nobody's doing and even
if it is, it might be one otherperson or something like that
but this space, because you gotand that's the other thing too,
(56:02):
man, you got to be protected,bro, because this is you know
what I'm talking about, bro,because it's reaching into a
territory, man, where thepower's to be really looking
like hold up now, Because you'retapping into it to this space
that is coming into what?
Speaker 3 (56:22):
we're doing the money train on, and I mean many
people have got their casedismissed, but I don't know not
one other person who got theircase dismissed for extrinsic
fraud, like it literally says.
They committed fraud because Iprove I broke down their actual
system.
And one last thing I just wantto say because I know it affects
(56:45):
a lot of people as well childsupport should not, should not,
should not be on your creditreport Because it wasn't given
as there was no credittransaction.
Child support was notified bythe credit bureaus 13 years ago
that the laws have changed andif you, they left it up to child
(57:08):
support until we get everythingin place, we're leaving it up
to you.
Child support should not be onanyone's credit report.
So if your, if child support ison your credit report right now
, today, if you're watching itand it's on your credit report,
that's fraud, wow.
Speaker 1 (57:26):
Well, tell the people where they can find you.
Speaker 3 (57:29):
Everything is real simple.
Childsupportisfraudcom.
Child support is fraud onInstagram.
Child support is fraud onYouTube.
Childsupportisfraudcom.
Keep it real simple.
You know they try to put thehold on me on Instagram.
You know putting restrictionson me, but you know everything
(57:50):
is.
Child support is fraud.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (57:53):
I appreciate it, brother, because us we literally
can probably dive another 34 toman, because you got so much
game to give and there's so manyparents, especially fathers,
that need to hear this.
And again, like you said, it'snot just you know the fathers
that's going through it, it's,you know, women, you know just
on both sides.
But thank you, man, to keepdoing the work that you're doing
.
Thank you for blessing us withyour presence, man, all the way
(58:15):
from La La my dog from Comptonto the A yeah man, you know what
I'm saying Sooted and booted.
Speaker 3 (58:22):
I appreciate y'all for having me.
Speaker 2 (58:24):
You know I had to come right.
Speaker 3 (58:25):
I mean, you know the queen, she comes ready.
I said okay.
Speaker 2 (58:30):
I gotta you know.
Speaker 3 (58:31):
get in that mindset of you, stay a lot in love with
me, brother we appreciate you,man.
Speaker 2 (58:38):
Let's love relationships matter.
Speaker 1 (58:45):
I need you to understand relationships matter.
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