To Wong Foo & Showgirls (30th anniversaries)

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Straw Hut Media.

Speaker 2 (00:04):
Hello world, and welcome to another episode of Release Date Rewind,
a podcast that's now five years old, celebrating milestone anniversaries
in film. Boy, do I have a show for you
today full of sparkle and glamour and fashion and boobs,
lots of boobs. We're getting real feminine darlin. I'm your host,

(00:27):
Mark J. Parker, a film lover and filmmaker, and thank
you for listening to this on your favorite podcast app
thanks to the Straw Media Network, or maybe you're listening
on the Run podcast network, or maybe you're watching on
YouTube to see the NC seventeen version. Yeah right, no,
it's okay. Don't run, don't be scared, keep watching. You're safe.

(00:48):
Sit back down. It's a double feature episode and we
have two very memorable, very queer, very sassy movies to
celebrate from September nineteen ninety five for their Pearl anniversary
Tou Wogfu thanks for everything, Julie Numar and Show Girls.
That's right, girl power. So grab your friends and your frenemies,

(01:10):
wear your drag and your verses, and if you'd like
to watch or rewatch these movies, Tou Wogfu is sadly
not streaming in the US currently with a subscription, but
you can totally rent it or borrow it from your
library or find it somewhere. And Showgirls is currently on
HBO Max in all of its high deaf glory. Show

(01:31):
Girls Absolutely right, all right, little Latin boys and Cheetahs,
put down the doggy chow and hop in my nineteen
sixty seven Cadillac Deville convertible because it's time to rewind.

(01:57):
Luck on her.

Speaker 3 (01:58):
Ooh and my favorite artists that the cheetahs nails are
done to.

Speaker 2 (02:05):
Her nails. Oh my god, I love it.

Speaker 3 (02:07):
We'll talk about that. This is this is the animal
versus the divine binary?

Speaker 2 (02:13):
And are you putting it on the candle right now?
Oh wow? Look at this Professor Andy is applying Nomi
to her candle.

Speaker 3 (02:23):
Artisans on this candle, on these they're there, you know.
They're just remind me of when I would go to
like Catholic service and they'd just be like this wall
of people you could pray to, and it's like you
had one thing and it was like it was very
like select your character, you know, And I was like,

(02:43):
who's going to help me fight off the bullies? You
know what I mean, And I'd be like, pray to her.
Didn't but yeah, so yeah, so in the I calling
the Vidal worship is the candle line? Yes, yes, wow,
she is the star.

Speaker 2 (02:59):
Of course she is the star. And what a star is?
Oh my gosh. All right, everybody, we have begun. We
are recording. Professor Andy is in the house. You might
know him, you might not. This is going to be
a very I can tell already. I already knew before
you came on, Andy that this was going to be
a very fun chat, a very queer and colorful chat. Everybody, welcome,

(03:20):
Andy Might to the show. Doctor Andy is in the house.
How's it going?

Speaker 3 (03:24):
Andy?

Speaker 2 (03:25):
This is so fun. You are a film professor. You
are a film lover. How did you get into so
you went to grad school? How did you start teaching film?

Speaker 4 (03:34):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (03:34):
I mean, I feel fortunate to be in doing something
that I love. It takes a long time to get here.
I just got tenured last year, so nearly associate professor
of film. You know, I started as a literature guy. Well,
I should say I started as a journalist and I
was writing and writing mostly entertainment beat kind of stuff.

(03:55):
And then my newspaper folded, and I went back to
grad school. I thought I was going to be a
scholar who studied like Southern Gothic writing. I really loved
like Flannery O'Connor and gosh, Shirley Jackson. I was going
to write about her a Londic of Hillhouse. And then
I took a great film class, and it really changed
my perspective. It was like in the film and that

(04:15):
teacher actually pulled me aside and said, you know, you're
better at writing about film than you are about literature,
which is a good advice. I'm actually a really slow reader, honestly,
and the better the better I understand, like my adhd
as an adult, that makes perfect sense. But you know,
it's as I am able to hyper focus. So I
teach film in the English department at CU Denver, and

(04:39):
so I I would say that I studied mythologies, and
that's that's the kind of big and in thinking about
genre as a type of mythology or a story that
we tell over and over again as a way to
work through tensions and explain the world and and that
sort of thing. And so yeah, so that's that's my
draw to film, and I write about evil children in

(05:01):
the horror genre. That's that was kind of my start
my book is that. Yeah, So it's it's basically it
looks at the types of evil children. I said, they
seem pretty queer actually, right, like evil children are problems
of gender, right, evil boys or withdrawn evil girls, or
bodies out of control. So it's about like tamping down

(05:23):
not just different types of youth, but but youth revolt
in general. So right, and so that's why spikes during
the Vietnam War, and then we get these these sorts
of films.

Speaker 2 (05:34):
Wow, oh, I'm learning so much already. We are having
a thank you Andy for being here because this is
a free class. You're basically going to give lots of
education to us.

Speaker 5 (05:42):
All.

Speaker 2 (05:42):
What is the name of your book?

Speaker 3 (05:43):
And when did it come out? Let's see twenty fifteen
it came out. So it was basically it was my
PhD dissertation. I went to University of Texas at Austin.
That's where I had really great like a film program training.

Speaker 2 (05:56):
Oh yeah, and a great film scene of course.

Speaker 3 (05:58):
Absolutely absolutely and really good for the kind of kind
of work that I want to do, which is I'm
more interested in reception so I'm rarely asking what did
the director intend? That's that's not really an interesting question
to me. I'm really interested in what do audiences do
with things, right, And I'm interested in the cultural afterlife
of films and how films have become cult objects. How

(06:20):
two different people have different backgrounds can go see the
same movie but have a totally different experience. That's a
minority spectatorship and minority authorship. Those are the kinds of
things I get really interested.

Speaker 2 (06:32):
Wow, Oh that's so interesting, Andy, And yeah, that aligns
with kind of why I do this show, because you know,
people love or hate all kinds of movies. What I
might obsess over you might be like, huh, okay, right,
it doesn't really matter if it's award winning or not.
It's how it's received, It's how it lasts the test
of time. And you know, maybe many of these movies,

(06:55):
you know, from the past, we end up loving more
and more and more, you know. So I don't know
what that is about our greater you know, identities now
of just like maybe we're longing for the past. Maybe
we wish we were the age when we discovered these movies.

Speaker 3 (07:08):
I don't know, right, that's the engine of nostalgia. You know.
Nostalgia is Greek for to remember through pain, and it
was used to describe the experiences of soldiers being away
from their their home during war and to like think
back and then think back in a way that is
about loss. Right as you understand that, you're right, we

(07:31):
all we're all nostalgic for the things that we consume
during our childhood because the world seems simpler then, right,
But but of course we were shielded from, you know,
the complications of the world. So of course the world
seems simpler, you know, child and so we're always sort
of longing for it, for that that kind of thing, right. Yeah,
I taught a class on cult movies, and I wish

(07:54):
I took it a lot.

Speaker 2 (07:55):
You ever, do you ever teach like classes, not for
like students, like just for like a class just for
the community in Denver or anything I do.

Speaker 3 (08:04):
So I'm here in Denver. My company, Rainbow Cults. We
do immersive cinema events, and so we just did a
tribute to Clueless and they can be from like a
backyard movie night, which is how they started in my house. Yeah,
I started during COVID. I started doing movie nights weekly
in my backyard films that I've seen at like film

(08:25):
festivals or kind of off the radar, that thought deserved
more attention, and that became a big thing. And then
so we moved it to a movie theater and started
incorporating drag performers as the characters before the films. And
then we started doing a I did a Fifth Element
show at me al Wolf, which is this immersive art
exhibit here in Denver, and weally projected the film on

(08:47):
all the walls and we'll put people inside of a
space nebula during certain scenes.

Speaker 2 (08:53):
There's some real work involved in these events. It's not
just come on over, We're gonna press play like you're really.

Speaker 3 (08:59):
Curious they've gotten and Yeah, and we did a tribute
to Labyrinth where I had puppetry and sort of Jim
Henson creatures for the audience to interact with. Yeah, And
so that's this is where I'm moving in my career now.
Is whereas my book, like The Revolting Child, was kind
of about like what do queer people see when they

(09:19):
see a child punished on screen right for being different?
Do they see the same movie as there's the straight
counterparts or given that. Something uniquely about queer experience is
you fear that those who love you the most will
not love you anymore if they learn about who you are, right,
And that's an intrinsic queer experience because we are born

(09:42):
aliens into our own home often and so in a
lot of this sort of like change during adolescence is
with the Exorcist, is just two hours about gay conversion
therapy working?

Speaker 4 (09:54):
Wow?

Speaker 3 (09:56):
And so those are the kind of questions. So it's like,
so I think the trick when studying spectatorship, and this
is what I trying to do with my students is
like can you understand where the film is pushing you?
And then also like what is your reaction? And what
is that gap between those two things?

Speaker 4 (10:11):
Say?

Speaker 3 (10:12):
Right about spectatorship? So when Marica making a vomits on
a priest and the Exorcist, I understand that I'm supposed
to be revolted, but I think it's fucking hilarious.

Speaker 2 (10:22):
Right, right, right?

Speaker 3 (10:23):
And so what parts about my identity are allowing for that?
Counter read?

Speaker 2 (10:27):
Absolutely? That is so interesting, Yeah, because we already know,
especially with that classic movie, many many people found that revolting,
and many many people are like hooting and hollering and
feeling wild and loving it.

Speaker 3 (10:40):
You know. So yeah, attendance, attendance, a Catholic mess shut
through the roof after that film came out and you.

Speaker 2 (10:46):
Grew up Catholic?

Speaker 3 (10:48):
Is that right?

Speaker 2 (10:48):
Okay? Me too? Although I remember, literally I remember nothing.
I had to go to CCD I until like Sunday
school got confirmed all that shit, and honestly, Andy, I
don't remember a thing. I remember how much I absolutely
hate did going to that weekly class. And I remember
waiting when I was like in I guess elementary school,
middle school, waiting on Sundays at the store next to

(11:09):
the church, looking at comic books of Catwoman and Fangoria,
waiting for my mom to pick me up. I remember
those moments very very well. But anything before that, I
just remember like, yeah, we had to read the Bible
and I don't know, maybe color something right. So what's
your How are you with Catholicism now? You still I

(11:30):
assume you don't You're not involved in or right?

Speaker 3 (11:32):
Yeah, I stopped living in Santa Claus as well.

Speaker 2 (11:36):
No.

Speaker 3 (11:36):
I mean, my my feeling is that it is part
of me, you know. Its really interesting is that if
you go somewhere and you hear someone say, I don't know,
may the Lord be with you. It's like you like,
I have this, but I have this sort of like
ingrained like reflex right. It's like the power of brainwashing
in a way. And so yeah, my relationship to it

(12:00):
now is like how can I queer it? How can
I make it meaningful to me? So yeah, so that's
why I started creating these these candle designs.

Speaker 2 (12:08):
Yes, can you I know you were showing me before
you recorded, but if you want to show.

Speaker 3 (12:12):
Up you, here's here share the virgin who can't drive.

Speaker 4 (12:16):
My God, I love it.

Speaker 3 (12:17):
She's totally bugging. And then her kind of dion is
based on the Hunter Backer that basically as we brought
off the unbacker with the skull cap. Daisy's in there.
So she's painter saying that I mentally challenged this Dorothy.

(12:38):
She is as the full kind of like begetting her
technicolor beautiful.

Speaker 2 (12:44):
So you were saying you work with an artist on
these designs, how does it work, Andy, like with these
amazing candles, Like do you just say, like I have
this vision of Dorothy walking on a technicolor rainbow.

Speaker 3 (12:54):
Or like, so basically I start with like some sort
of like iconic religious image, let's say, like yeah, the
Virgin Mary, and then I send the artist at the
image of share that I want, and I was like
mash them to it. And my rule is they have
to be instantly recognizable as both upon first sight. And
so I mean that's part and that's actually what I

(13:14):
would argue is queer art is when you queer artists
fanfic essentially, right, when when things are not made for you,
you write yourself into them. And so queer people grow
up doing crush gender identifications like we we scavenge, we do, yeah.

Speaker 2 (13:30):
We can do the best bits to now frankenstein them
into something so perfectly, you know, right.

Speaker 3 (13:36):
Right right, And so the queer art is collage work essentially,
And so that's how I think of like the mashup
is like here's the Frank and Furter design.

Speaker 2 (13:47):
It's like, yeah, let's see a close up.

Speaker 3 (13:49):
There you go. So it's it's Christ descending that I
remember from Catholic school, but it's also Frank Confurter will
be is the Price the Redeemer Statue and Riodo Demeiro America. Yeah,
there's there's Megan if she was a member of Act
Up because I think like Megan for me is like
the big sister you, which would have protected you from

(14:11):
your bullies. It's a really fascinating camp film as well,
because it cultivates a new a desire to see children punished,
you know, by the monster. We we want it right, Yeah,
And that's kind of like an interesting hallmark of queer
viewing too, is like over identification with the villain really common,
especially when especially when you queer code the villains like

(14:32):
Disney does.

Speaker 2 (14:33):
Yes, So Andy, what are you teaching right now? Can
you tell us? Are you a class at school currently?

Speaker 3 (14:39):
Yeah? So we have a we have a rotation of courses.
I'm up to teach International Cinema, which I do the
history of Japanese cinema and so so you know, we
talked about this a little bit of piloting something in
that class of using and custom mod chetch ept that
has all of their course readings and the history of
Japan and my lectures and notes and everything, and and

(15:00):
then I asked them to have a conversation with it. Yeah,
and and then it really helps them. What are their
assignments is to create a film that could have existed
in Japan in nineteen forty two, like if it was
a lost film, wow, and then the other. Of course
I'm teaching same way with like a chat GPT modruble
is time travel in literature and film?

Speaker 2 (15:21):
Interesting? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (15:22):
We just we did run Lola Run two weeks ago.
We are looking at this independent film called The Endless today.
You must have watched so many movies, Yes, but if
I remember them, Like I'll all go up to watch
a movie and I be like, I think I've seen
this before. Very often.

Speaker 2 (15:43):
Will be right back.

Speaker 4 (15:48):
She's dazzling, she's exciting, and she's what Las Vegas is
all about.

Speaker 3 (15:54):
It's so interesting, Like why people go to the movies.
I think this is kind of interesting for your podcast
because it's like I usually go to the movie because
I want to see something I've never seen before, Like
I want to be challenged, and I think the worst
crime I film Kick Committ is to make me forget
I saw it. Oh yeah, But a lot of people
go to the movies for the exact opposite. They go
for predictability and comfort, you know, which is like I

(16:16):
think this this question of nostalgia and rape replayability lends
towards probably a lot of discussions of like comfort and
I remember where it was when this.

Speaker 2 (16:28):
And that's why, like those stories that we've seen before
are doing so well in theater, like on stage, live performance,
you know, like you know, the original plays and musicals
are always a tough sell, but especially I was actually
just reading a article just this morning, like they're tougher
to sell than ever because you know, typically live theater
tickets are more expensive than a movie ticket, although movie

(16:51):
tickets are not cheap, right, I don't know what they
are in Denver, but here in New England, I mean
eighteen dollars in New Hampshire, what right?

Speaker 3 (16:59):
For a reason, and we've collapsed the window between you
could watch it at home where you I can only
see in theaters. And so I think a lot of
people are saying, like is that worth my time? Or
I could wait? I could wait a couple yea even
probably three months is even long. I mean you could
use an multaneous release, right, And so it's the film
industry's own fault really for their response to COVID was

(17:22):
to collapse the release window between theatrical and home release.
So now I would argue that the distinction between film
and television isn't the medium itself. It used to be.
It used to be a commercial interruption, right, like weekly
release of narrative, But that's not true anymore. So the
difference between film and television now is television is anything

(17:44):
you watch in your home, usually privately, and film is
a communal experience. And so that's what I'm trying to
do with Rainbow Cull, just to bring the communal the
liveness back to movies. And so you can watch Clueless
anytime you want to, but you're only going to see
it in this venue, with this crowd, where you're encouraged
to quote back and sing along, and with often drag

(18:07):
performers shadow casting in the film. I like to say
that that part of what we do is like Rocky horror,
but for other movies. Yea. So we've had like a
cheerleading troupe in the movie theater for bringing on and
but I'm a cheerleader. We we've done like prop stuff,
and we we did a tribute to Clue in a

(18:27):
halted mansion.

Speaker 2 (18:29):
Okay, so walk me through that because this is so fascinating.
And then the next time I'm going to Denver, I
have to do these events, so clue in this mansion,
so like you had to go out to the people
that run the mansion or own it or something.

Speaker 3 (18:44):
Right, we rented it for the evening and so downstairs
in the kind of like the kind of renovated area,
we I hired six actors to play the characters from
the film, and there was a murder that happened, and
so we're kind of like a dinner murder mystery party.
And then we went upstairs and watched the film together

(19:05):
and they shadow cast part of them, like they would
run around, you know, during during the chase sequences.

Speaker 2 (19:11):
And had some sort of rehearsal for them, I assume, right, Yes.

Speaker 3 (19:15):
Yeah, I shot an audacious theater here in Denver. They
are really great immersive theater groups. So so it was
a group of improv factors.

Speaker 2 (19:23):
Wow, you're making me want to move to Denver, Okay, great.

Speaker 3 (19:27):
Our reveal was so we had a drag performer as
Missus White and then she went into Ariana's a Dangerous
Woman as her drag number, and so it was it
was a lot of fun. We'd like to have something
that's like a little bit of a surprise, you know,
smart but but yeah, so I've been doing these movie
events now for like five years.

Speaker 2 (19:45):
That is so cool and it sounds like a lot
of work. You must have a team, I assume to
help you or.

Speaker 3 (19:51):
Yeah, yeah, definitely people at the house. We're kind of
mostly volunteer run, so so scrappy, but we have a
lot of fun. We try and maintain that like backyard
movie kind of esthetic that anytime you come it should
feel like the church you wanted to go to, you know.

Speaker 2 (20:09):
As a comment to that, yes, that is a church,
signed me up for that. I will be a member
and I will donate.

Speaker 3 (20:15):
Yeah, you know, we spent a good two weeks in
this cult movies class that I taught talking about the
the kind of similarities between religious church going and cult
movie attendance. Right and Rocky hortor Picture show, I think
is like the best example of that. There is a
call and response, right, there's a liturgy, there is uh,

(20:38):
you know, a sort of common language among parishioners, and
and it's your it's idolatry towards just a different object,
you know.

Speaker 2 (20:46):
Yeah, absolutely, you're so right. That is so interesting and
it's funny because I feel like both of these movies
we're talking about are kind of cult movies. Although Quong
Fu was number one at the at the box office
for two weeks, So I mean, you kind of can't
be a cult movie if actually you were the biggest
movie at the time. You know, it's right, it's created, right,
and now I feel like it's a part.

Speaker 3 (21:08):
Of like right, well, like what is a cult movie?
Can we talk about Wicked as a cult movie? Can
we talk about Titanic as a cult movie?

Speaker 2 (21:17):
Interest?

Speaker 4 (21:18):
And so is it?

Speaker 3 (21:19):
And this is typically the definition of a cult movie
is an object that fails and a subcultural audience embraces
it right and and or and often like rewrites it.
And so I might say, like a cult movie is
an object that has this strong textual afterlife and that
it And usually when I do my events, what I

(21:39):
think of is, like what do queer people like to
quote to one another, send memes back and forth. Those
are the films that I want to do because it's
an invitation to participate in the event to quote along.

Speaker 2 (21:49):
Yeah, that's so interesting. Yeah, it's it's almost cult movies
now are almost less about how they did financially back
when they first came out and it's more of like
an actual like upkeep of it in the vernacular in
like you're stor right, and memes and quotes. Is like Titanic,
We know that was the biggest movie on planet Earth.

(22:11):
I mean galaxy made millions, right, But yeah, there's still
a niche group of us out there that still quote
the movie or still remember certain things that the general
person out there is not quoting Titanic, right, So that's interesting.

Speaker 4 (22:26):
Yeah, how it takes on this.

Speaker 2 (22:28):
Other life that's just now part of our own identities,
our own subculture or something.

Speaker 3 (22:34):
Yeah, and the subculture is the big part. I think
it has to be. Suppose, like an interpretive community is
the subculture where you kind of like exchange lines and
you know this scene, that scene.

Speaker 6 (22:46):
So yeah, Wesley Snipes, he's been a killer and a commendo.
Patrick Swayze, he's been a heart thrub and a hero.
But these tough guys are about to face the most
physically challenged roles of their careers.

Speaker 3 (23:02):
Let's give it to them, girls.

Speaker 2 (23:04):
So let's go back thirty years ago, Andy to September
nineteen ninety five. This is what was happening when Tu
Wong Fu came out in theaters, everybody will start about
We'll start with two Long Poo because that came out
a little bit earlier than Showgirls. September eighth, nineteen ninety five. Andy,
I'm gonna set the scene for us. This is what
was going on. Feel free to shout out your thoughts.
This is a little time capsule, okay. On the news side,

(23:25):
the OJ Simpson trial was going on with the whole
glove business. If don't you can't quit whatever, right, that
was all over the headlines. Meanwhile, another shocking guy, Howard
Stern shock Chock, had incurred a one point seven million
dollars fine. I guess we're talking about all sorts of
bad stuff, and so that was owed to the government.

(23:45):
So those were some hot topics at the time. On
the music side, Gangster's Paradise from Us Minds, Love Kiss
from a Rose Fantasy by Mariah Carey iconic, right, I
only want to be with you from who do You?
The Blowfish?

Speaker 3 (24:03):
I believe?

Speaker 2 (24:04):
And as I lay me down from Sophie b. Hawk right,
still like that soundtrack, I remember, like I'm seeing like summer.

Speaker 3 (24:14):
Camps list in Seattle, Like what was the soundtrack? I
don't know.

Speaker 2 (24:19):
I don't know. I'm just like envisioning that, like especially
summer of ninety five hearing those right, what do you
think of when you hear that soundtrack of hits? How
do you think of yourself?

Speaker 3 (24:32):
Absolutely? Yeah. So I am nineteen ninety five, I'm a
junior in high school, and I'm pretending to like Pearl Jam,
but I'm actually listening to Mariah Carey. You know, this
soundtrack on Long Food was also Oh.

Speaker 2 (24:51):
It's banger. I love the opening song from Sea Oh
my yeah.

Speaker 3 (24:56):
So it's such a great like opening, oh go to
war kind of music, you know what I.

Speaker 2 (25:04):
Mean, Like like like, let's let's immediately bring everyone to
this world, right?

Speaker 3 (25:11):
Absolutely?

Speaker 2 (25:13):
Where is the body?

Speaker 3 (25:15):
Right?

Speaker 4 (25:18):
I mean?

Speaker 2 (25:19):
Wow, we are transported immediately?

Speaker 3 (25:21):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (25:21):
And it's so funny because we'll talk about show Girls later,
but show Girls, that opening is different and that was starting.
It's interesting because at this time in the mid nineties,
not only did films really start looking beautiful, which both
of these movies are beautiful, but show Girls is shot like,
oh my god. Thirty years later, I'm like, this movie
is stunning with the lenses and everything. But we some

(25:42):
cool movies started to ignore the opening credits, so we
have to you know, whereas Tu wang Fu has that
music and we're seeing every name on the screen, we're
taking our time showing the makeup, right, So it makes
perfect sense for both movies. But I just thought that
was interesting because you know, then we see in more
movies and both today some some don't even show the
title of the movie, you know, like we just get

(26:04):
right to the story, no names.

Speaker 3 (26:05):
So yeah, I mean, it's think really interesting if you
think about like we might not talk about them, but
both of these are musicals, right, and and so we
talk about like in the sixties, the musical dies because
the soundtrack starts to emote four charactersk of like the
graduate and so so we start to replace like that

(26:26):
concede of breaking on a song with the cone. But
we still have the same structure. So Showgirls is a
classic backstage musical, right and and we still in in
Tumung Fou too. We get the same structure of the musical,
which is sort of like interstitial narrative, break spectacle and
then kind of like back into narrative we have in

(26:47):
the musical. It's important that characters synchronize, and that is
that is kind of like alignment. Usually romantic alignment is
done through synchronization of dance, the way that like Dawn
in Singing the Rain divorces himself from cosmo synchronization and
joins in synchronization with Kathy. Right, It's like that's how
we represent courtship in the musical. Yeah, and so there's

(27:10):
really fascinating things happening in both of these films about
the musical. For for tung Fu, it's musical as spectacle.
For show Girls, it's almost like musical as intimacy. It's
really really fascinating.

Speaker 2 (27:23):
Oh, that is so fascinating. Yeah. With Tuong Foo, You're
so right, the musical moments, both both on the soundtrack
but also the actual characters are like dancing and grooving
a bit. It happens during like those montages or yeah,
those like interstitial kind of like we're we're driving further
along or we're you know, dressing up the ladies in town. Right, Yes,

(27:43):
where show Girls the music is actually part of their work,
you know, almost like Chicago that way or something, you know,
like right.

Speaker 3 (27:51):
Right, absolutely interesting. Yeah, But tokud we have a mashup
a couple of different genres. We have the road movie obviously,
we have musical, and then we have a kind of
like social justice undertone to to the film as well.
So it's it's it's a really kind of fascinating mix

(28:12):
of those. And every time you hybridize genre as you're
you're taking, well, this is what the road movie believes,
this is what the musical believes, this is what the
coming of age film believes, and all of those things
get kind of mished together. Absolutely, I really find interesting.

Speaker 2 (28:25):
Yes, and that's gonna be tough to braid all those
strands together, but it works so well. It's a little tonally.
Both of these movies are a little tonally all over
the place. Show girlth especially too. It blends much better,
but it's still, you know, we have some real dark stuff,
we have some very fun stuff. So yeah, because of
all those strands, it can feel a little bit a

(28:48):
little bit of you know, like whoa where are we now?

Speaker 3 (28:51):
You know?

Speaker 2 (28:51):
When now we're getting real heavy, you know, But it's
still I think it makes the movie just that much
more special and emotional and really wholesome.

Speaker 3 (29:00):
Right aboutely, which was just surprising because one of the
kind of genres that's riffing on is the road movie
which is really about white men being going, being able
to go anywhere they want to and dominating space. So
that like the old like Dean Martin films were so
much about that, like I'm going to hold by in
a space and I'm going to control it, right, And
then that's the musical part, is that the world conforms

(29:23):
to me right. If I'm in love, the world is
in love right. But it's so much about like I
it's Western expansionism, kind of in miniature in the Road movie,
and so so it takes that American identity of the rebel,
it combines with it the idea of Western expansion and
sort of like colonizing spaces, and it flips it on

(29:46):
its head. This These are queer, non binary people moving
through a Western expansion and healing damaged and divided communities
and releasing repression.

Speaker 4 (30:03):
Meet Vita bo M, Why are you crunny?

Speaker 3 (30:07):
Maybe she's.

Speaker 6 (30:09):
Miss Noxima Jackson and their protege Kiki Rodriguez.

Speaker 4 (30:15):
I'm the Latino man in Monroe. I got more legs
than a bucket.

Speaker 2 (30:18):
Of Chick's interesting to call them not in binary, because
you're right, I mean, And how Stockard Channing? I mean,
who's so good at this. She says, I don't really
think of you as a woman or a man. I
think of you as an angel.

Speaker 3 (30:29):
Like wow, what a.

Speaker 4 (30:32):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (30:35):
Like so so that is so so Yeah, they are
like angels, and therefore they are healers. And I thought
that was so interesting because and they're healing themselves in
this process. But they're healing, you know Stockard's character a
lot of the women and most of the men too.
You know, they're they're making it cool to do these
things and to be cool to each other. You know,

(30:57):
it's good. Oh my god, I got them.

Speaker 3 (31:00):
But it's but it's a greater trope, right. We see
it in Ventures Priscilla, Quina, the Desert, We see it
in Queer Eye for This Straight Guy. We see it
see it in David in Shit's Creek runs an apothecary
in this space. And so this troop of queer people,
marginal people going in and healing divided nations, like in

(31:22):
a time when that's needed. And I love that context.
You said at the beginning of this the O. J.
Simpson Troup talk about and nation divided, right, And and
so I think it's it's really kind of like fascinating
how how this sort of this trope wants to provide
remedy to that division.

Speaker 2 (31:39):
That's interesting.

Speaker 3 (31:40):
They're essentially moving through Trump's America at great risk and
in healing them, which I think is just a remarkable
film to be thinking about now.

Speaker 2 (31:51):
I know, isn't it wild? How as I'm rewatching it.
I saw it when I was a kid. I probably
saw it once it came to maybe TV or video,
you know, maybe in ninety six, a few months later something, right,
But I haven't watched this in quite a while, And
first of all, it was just amazing that, like some
moments still burned in my brain just like so memorable,
but a lot of it I was like, oh, yeah,

(32:12):
she's in this reason. And then watching now in twenty
twenty five, in the America we live in, I'm like, whoa,
this is crazy how so many of these scenes could
be filmed today and it still makes absolute sense? Like right,
Like that was actually very heavy and kind of terrifying
that it's like is this nineteen ninety five or is

(32:33):
it twenty twenty five, because there's no difference.

Speaker 3 (32:36):
So if you're talking about like the assault by the
police officer, right, like this is a PG thirteen film.
Like this is where I think we don't really give
enough credit to this film for doing some really heavy
lifting within that restriction of a PG theory drag queen
film like honestly, I don't think would be PEG thirteen today,
maybe depending on what state, certainly not in Texas. It

(33:01):
have a warning label on it, and so I just
find that, like to give it credit for that. This
film and Birdcage around the same time are just doing
really heavy lifting within a really restrictive rating.

Speaker 2 (33:15):
System absolutely and really brought the straits, you know, to
the theater. I mean, these these are, especially with the
Bird Cage, two very queer movies obviously with big stars
doing amazing work, and it really unified everyone at least,
you know, for a time at the movies, right, which
is very special.

Speaker 3 (33:34):
I mean people dog this film sometimes for its casting.
But let's say, John leg Gizamo is incredible.

Speaker 2 (33:42):
And I didn't know until the other day Douglas Carter Bean,
the writer wrote the role for John Leguzama. I didn't know.

Speaker 3 (33:49):
I mean, he just disappears inside this role and I
and I adore Patrick Swayze. I think that is another
embodied role. They say that he got the role because
he dressed in drag and walked around the block and
nobody cocked in that amazing story. And then Wesley Snipes too.
It's like it was, so.

Speaker 2 (34:07):
Wesley is a maze, Like I you know, because Wesley
I don't really follow a lot of his work. I mean,
you know, the heads sure, but like Western Stripes for me,
you know, but wow, I forgot Wesley is so committed.

Speaker 3 (34:20):
And so funny, funny. Yeah, I've seen.

Speaker 2 (34:24):
Those lines are oh my gosh, and and I just
love that Wesley apparently was one of the first people
to say yes like you would just think at that time,
and an action star like him, you know, and especially
what we hear, you know, from within the black community,
there seems to be I've heard, you know, a little
bit of animosity towards queer people within that community, you know.

Speaker 3 (34:46):
So it's it's interesting because there's this sort of trope
of black male comedians using fat suits to do drag.
But there's something about the sort of like embodied and
we're not going to make a joke out of this
with a Wesley Snipes role that is is really powerful.

Speaker 2 (35:01):
Yes, amen to that. You're so right, That's what it
is exactly real quick andy in your own words. I
ask every guest in your home words, it does not
need to be long. If for anyone out there who's listening,
who hasn't seen this amazing movie, what is chu wang
Fu about? Do you want to give a little log line,
a little brief synopsis.

Speaker 3 (35:17):
Yeah, So a trio of drag queens hit the road
on their way to a drag competition, and uh and
get had to stop at a small town where they
find the humanity and heal the town and and and
bring them together before they fly off to their goal.

Speaker 2 (35:39):
Which is most sad because some of them want to
stay there. You know, I think I forget is it
Patrick Swayze? No, I think it, John like was almost
says like I was someone right, Pichi, But yeah, it's
so so beautiful that it can only be there for
a weekend. But in that weekend, I mean, the world
is more colorful now, you know in this two Yeah,
absolute beautiful.

Speaker 3 (36:00):
Yeah. And so there's this I think one of the
one of the tropes that's kind of building on is
this sort of fairy godmother idea, right, and we have
a kind of like bippity boppity boo. That's the fashion
sequence where they get the girls of the town and
and do a kind of fashion show. Classic classic fairy Godmother.
Oh so right, yes, and yeah, so I really love

(36:21):
that about that. It's such a such a great film
that way, infinitely quotable. I want to show you. So
when we did our two Wung Foo tribute event, I
had an artist make the girls who tu Wang Foo
Wow as like a parody of Washington crossing the Delaware.

Speaker 2 (36:40):
Oh my god, love it.

Speaker 3 (36:42):
That was the vibe. But I do think of them
as pioneers, you know what I mean. I think that's
one of the things when I go back to watch
this film, it is lighthearted, so I think the like
the comedy framing of it diminishes your fear of something happening.
But we're spectator. I'm almost conditioned to expect the violence,

(37:03):
you know what I mean, And like I even in
experiences where like I'm enjoying myself. It's a gay romance film.
Call Me by your Name, in the back of my
head going when's the gay action gonna happen? When when
is the like rejection by the parents going to happen?
And so what I like about this film is that
it it created stakes, but it it was escapist. It

(37:28):
let me have hope for my ability to complasses and
not get hate crime, do you know what I mean? Yeah,
have conversations with people that I disagree with and you know,
and and and not to do with fear. Yeah, I
feel that way at the moment, you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (37:48):
I know, yeah, we don't really know exactly like how
this conversation could go when you're talking to someone, you know,
like people are doing all sorts of crazy things nowadays, right,
so it is such a nice cozy blanket to watch
something like this that maybe you know, yeah, it's a
little unrealistic, right, It's a little bit of a fantasy
where like no one in town seems to really suspect

(38:11):
that they're actually not women, you know, like everyone just
believes like, oh wow, you're you're a big lady, you know,
Like so you know, it's almost kind of like if
I know, this is a real downer, but it's almost
like as if boys don't cry like and did happily,
you know what I mean, Like where these like straight
rugged roughnecks like actually, you know, uh learned something and

(38:34):
everyone was at peace, right.

Speaker 3 (38:35):
So Yeah, so the need for those stories in which
they're like, yeah, you're gonna have happy, fulfilling lives and
people will accept you right and right and don't be
afraid to leave your comfort zone.

Speaker 4 (38:48):
Yeah, you know they were headed for Hollywood.

Speaker 3 (38:50):
Think of it as easy.

Speaker 4 (38:51):
Writer and dresses on a sacred mission.

Speaker 6 (38:53):
Must take this message from Miss Newmore with us across
the land.

Speaker 2 (38:59):
I'm going to just talk a little bit about our
main players and are our creators of Tuang Fu where
they were in their careers, and then we'll nerd out
about any more fun scenes or any lines you want
to talk about. But so we mentioned writer Douglas Carter Bean.

Speaker 4 (39:12):
I didn't.

Speaker 2 (39:13):
I forgot he wrote this because he's also a play
right right, which this feels very much like a play,
a musical, right Like, it just feels it's very contained,
even though it's it's a road movie, you know, it
feels they're really in New York and then there's the
road and then they're just in the town. So I
mean it be done on stage, right. But so he
apparently he might have seen this too. He apparently was
inspired by an anti gay propaganda film titled The Gay Agenda,

(39:35):
and he had said, there's a scene where they showed
drag queens going through a town and the narrator is
warning the viewers that these people will take over, and
he thought, well, that would be fun. And it's because
the cop, what's his name, Chris Penn, the cop that
tries to you know, assault Vita. He even says, like,
you know, on the on the megaphone. I think he's like,
you know, don't believe them, like they're gonna ruin your town.

(39:59):
Kick him out, you know. So right there pulling stuff
from real life, and that's what people are now saying
today about especially trans folks.

Speaker 3 (40:07):
Right.

Speaker 2 (40:07):
So it's just so weird how the mirrors are just up,
you know, facing each other. Right. But the script got
to ambulance Steven Spielberg's company. Spielberg. I love that he
loved it and wanted to push it along. I love
that so much and so interesting because British director, and
she's now a politician. I'm going to butcher her name
Bebon Kidron, do you know?

Speaker 4 (40:28):
Is that how you say it?

Speaker 2 (40:30):
Something like that? Right, Ron Kidron. But now she's a politician.
She's always been an advocate and doing really cool, interesting
cultural things. So she had begged Spielberg to let her
direct and he accepted, which is pretty cool because again
we had at least, you know, Leguizama wasn't huge yet,
but we had Swayze, Snipes, Stocker, Channing. I mean, we

(40:50):
had some big names for a lesser known director, you know,
to take this on. So that's pretty cool, right. She
had done some documentary, some British films. Now, the actors,
like we said, Wesley Snipes again action star. He had
just done Demolition Man, Drop Zone, sugar Hill, so he
is like tough star. Audience has come to know what

(41:11):
a Wesley Snipes movie is until now. Right. It is
interesting because I feel like the lead is really Patrick Swayze,
it's Vita, but Wesley Snipes gets first billing. So I
always just think that's interesting. Being in the casting world,
I'm like, Okay, his agents must have really fought. The
producer is like, I want to be number one, you
know when real would you agree it's really Vita's the later? Yeah,

(41:36):
Noxima definitely is like number two and absolutely nothing wrong
with that. She seems just kind of like the support,
you know, to Vita. So I just think that a
Vida we have Patrick Swayze, who, of course you know
Ghost Point Break the Player. He was in Tall Tales,
so another rugged such a handsome guy coming out of
the shower in the beginning. I like how they that
was smart. They're like, hey, you know Patrick Raysey, you

(41:58):
know he's a babe, ran out of the shower seeing
a little bit of skin. Oop, there goes to tell.
But now this is a different version.

Speaker 3 (42:05):
Of Patrick, right, you know I love that, right absolutely.

Speaker 2 (42:11):
And then last, but not least leg was Almo Carlito's
way Super Mario Brothers. He had just done a pyromaniac
love story, so people were getting to know him. You know,
I was a big Super Mario Brothers fan. I've talked
about that, right, yes, but yes, so he's like, you know,
getting more and more popular. But this really helped him,

(42:32):
I think, really get seen by many people.

Speaker 3 (42:36):
Right.

Speaker 2 (42:37):
And then of course he went on to do Romeo
and Juliet and lots of other amazing things after that
came out the year after about a year after this, Yeah,
Romeo and Juliet, when I feel like that's really when
a lot of us were like, oh yeah, like wow,
he is a star, right, and it's interesting out of
the three, I think all deserved all the gnoms. But yeah,
Patrick and and John got Golden Globe. Nooms at least,

(42:59):
I don't think it getting any other real nose. Maybe
a glad Award I might have seen. But yeah, I
feel like a movie, a movie like this that came
out now with these stars, I feel like would be
it might not really last all the way to like
the Oscars. But I do think if this was made
today with stars of this stature, I feel like people

(43:20):
would be chattering more about awards, you know what I mean,
just because it's so maybe especially if straight men, you know,
straight cis men are hired. You know, I just feel
like we don't be like, you know, it's so brave
and like recognize them and like look at their walk, like, oh,
they're so funny, you know. Whereas back then, I'm sure
that was still happening, but it was still kind of like,

(43:41):
I don't know, a little under the radar ish, you know.
I'm sure outlets were like, wow, like these men, these
manly men are doing this movie. Let's see you.

Speaker 3 (43:53):
Yeah, I'm curious to see what who was up? Okay, So,
leaving Las Vegas, Nicholas cage one, we're in nineteen ninety five.

Speaker 2 (44:01):
Oh yeah, was that ninety four? So yeah, for Forrest Gump, yep, yep, which,
of course you know iconic, he's great, but a little
safe was nominated. Yeah, that is a good question. Whatever.
That also ultimately just tells you awards kind of a
meaningless right, Like, yes, they're important at the time, and
they help get further decisions made. But in Heinz, you know,

(44:24):
thirty years later, right, who needs an.

Speaker 3 (44:26):
Wark when you have such a great I teach film
And I never watched the award show. I just really afterwards.

Speaker 2 (44:32):
Yeah, I still love them, but they are I think
now it's sort of just like this weird like pomp
and circumstance, kind of like ceremony that I still kind
of like, do you know what I mean? Like? And
then and then a week later I'm like, what one?

Speaker 3 (44:47):
Right? Can we talk though about? The only thing I
really hate about this movie, Oh tell me is the
title I hated. I hate it so much. I don't
know it made it all the way to this stage.

Speaker 4 (45:04):
Wild, but along the way they had an unexpected stop.
You know what your career? Girls want careers? That is
to sugar please no, no, no, you don't. But I
think this one is White Policeman.

Speaker 3 (45:25):
No studio was like that is an unmarketable title. Apparently
there was nothing about the film. It's so random, confusing.

Speaker 2 (45:34):
It's so random, right, Like, what would you have called
it instead? Would you have called it? Would you have
shortened it to like just thanks for everything? I mean,
that's pretty generic, Like what would you just something completely different?

Speaker 3 (45:44):
I would have given it a road movie sounding name
like Sam and Louise Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the
Desert like that sounds like an adventure, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (45:56):
Something like about Middle America, like something the America in
it could have been interesting.

Speaker 3 (46:02):
Do you know what I mean? In the heartland?

Speaker 2 (46:05):
I don't know, you know what it sounds. And it's
funny because, like we said, Douglas Carter Bean is a play, right,
and I guess he was originally thinking this would be
a play. It sounds like a play title. It sounds
a little no offense, but you're I'm totally with you.
It sounds a little pretentious, sounds a little like New
York theater scene like.

Speaker 3 (46:22):
Come back to the five and dining Jimmy Dean, Right.

Speaker 2 (46:26):
Something that's long that's like, you know, and that's why
now it's just too wung Fu, which still to this day,
I don't really know who wang Fu is other than
just a fan, right, did we ever find out who
wang Fu is?

Speaker 3 (46:36):
And half the people don't know who Julie Numar is
until you like point out that she was, like, you know.

Speaker 2 (46:41):
One of the women and one of the less thing ones.

Speaker 3 (46:45):
Yes, right, exactly exactly, And so I mean, I I
like the journey spurned by something so subcultural because the
film itself is so subcultural, and it in it it
begins by saying, here's an object that means nothing to
most people, but it's something so special to me, and
I'm going to make a pilgrimage of sorts, right, and

(47:05):
so so it's it's different than the American typical American
road movie, where it is almost like a religious pilgrimage.
I put it in the same category as like Little
Miss Sunshine. I think we're on this type of engine, yeah,
and so we need to get to this thing and
we're gonna have impediments along the way.

Speaker 2 (47:25):
Yeah, you're right. And actually Little the Sunshine's are nice
comparison because they're they're on the way to like a contest,
a pageant of sorts, right and then and going through
parts of the country or just areas that they normally
wouldn't be in right right then. Yeah, the implements come absolutely.

Speaker 4 (47:42):
I like that.

Speaker 2 (47:43):
Another great movie. When did you first see this? Did
you see this when it first came out? Did you
see it a little later? What are your memories of
your first tunk?

Speaker 3 (47:50):
Foo?

Speaker 4 (47:50):
Watch?

Speaker 3 (47:51):
You remember junior in high school? I was out to
a few people, but I would have never allowed myself
to be seen going to a gay movie. That would
have terrified me in this like small town in Ohio.
So yeah, and it's actually there's really interesting studies about
that with queer spectators. So for instance, like Brick Broke

(48:11):
Back Mountain didn't do so well in theaters but did
really well in VHS, And so the idea is like
there's certain films which feel vulnerable, like attending them is vulnerable.
And gosh, critic Judith Maine says that queer spectators are
dialecticians that we have when there's queer's content on the
screen and we have one eye on the screen and

(48:31):
one eye on the audience.

Speaker 2 (48:33):
God, it's so true. Oh God, you know, it's funny
that you say that, because, yeah, even though we've been
saying that, you know, times now are not all that
different than times thirty years ago in this movie, right,
But yeah, when I go to the movies, I haven't
really thought about that. Actually. I guess I'm kind of
lucky that way, where I don't feel self conscious, you know,

(48:55):
walking into certain movies.

Speaker 3 (48:57):
Right, you know, And it was probably like it was
definitely paranoia on my Yeah, I think.

Speaker 2 (49:03):
Especially at that age when you're already Yeah, I mean,
you know.

Speaker 3 (49:07):
I wouldn't even go to a I would go to
a gay club in another city because I was so
afraid of being found out, you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (49:15):
Yeah, So then did you see did you just see
this then? At home on VHS? Okay?

Speaker 3 (49:21):
Yeah. When I went to college, I had this like
I'm going to consume all the queer things, you know,
and so I I kind of embarked on my own
educational journey. Basically. I started with the same like Closets,
which came out a year after this film, and just
sorted to like work my way through all the films
that they mentioned.

Speaker 2 (49:39):
Wow, that's smart, Yeah, make a little list.

Speaker 3 (49:42):
Yeah, that was that was my education.

Speaker 4 (49:45):
No, they stranded in a strange land. Well, ladies met
them to Snydersville and you thought that was over. This
is the presidential suite, one of those bad presidents.

Speaker 2 (49:56):
I remembered Stockard Channing. Why can't I remember her character name?
I remembered her story and how bleak it is. But wow,
watching it again, I just wanted to give them a
shout out. I mean her and her husband. I think
his name is Virgil. Oh it is dark and awful.
And what's amazing is because I feel like a movie today,

(50:17):
like especially like a Netflix movie or something, might really
kind of hit it over the head and like kind
of like give us some like expository lines. But I
really like how they don't. It's not you know what's
happening there. He's throwing the pot of food. It's too spicy.
Like with very little dialogue, actually we can tell like, oh,
this is an awful situation for her to be and
she needs help right, and it really is so special.

(50:41):
Where As our three girls are fighting, and I have
to say they're getting pretty racist, like Vita and Chi Chi,
especially Vita, wha girl, Like watch what you're saying right
as Anaxima says, don't go there, like, oh you're as
they're fighting Vita. Especially here's the fighting the other room.
So I think that's a really interesting comparison because that

(51:04):
fighting is dangerous and dark. This fighting, even though it's hurtful,
we know it's not that bad, right.

Speaker 3 (51:11):
And well, it's part of that queer tradition of reading, right,
which everything from Paris is Burning to boys in the band.
One of the there's is this is how we toughen
each other up in the real world, right, is through
that that sort of like combative and like we're going
to get you to like slap back, right, and especially.

Speaker 2 (51:33):
As they're trying to make chi Chi the best drag
queen she can be. So it's kind of one of
their rules, right to like you got to take it
like us.

Speaker 3 (51:40):
Yeah, right, But I do think it's interesting we should
talk a little bit about Like, yes, Vita is sort
of like the narrative center. I think chi Chi is
probably the heart of the film, and you have Noxemia,
I have this like interesting connection to the past, and
so they fit into this like Crone mother Maiden archetype
as well as they move as they move through through

(52:03):
the space I forgot where I was going with this exactly,
but oh I love it. But thinking about like a
black trans person and LATINX trans person going into an
old white town where I think, this is the interesting
part about that that abuse cycle is that he hates spice. Right.

(52:24):
This is the town that is white and bland, right,
and what these queens bring in is spice, right.

Speaker 2 (52:34):
And everyone wants spice except you virtual right, maybe that's
you know. And also, oh my gosh, how funny because
in a year later The Spice Girls came out, but
one of the movie was just called like spice or
I don't know, you know what I mean, like something
like that.

Speaker 3 (52:49):
Actually what trade. Yeah, that's why it's the opening of
the Spice right.

Speaker 2 (52:57):
But that almost is like a good alternate name something
with that in it, because because they're bringing the spice,
there's the whole spice issue with with Stocker, you know.
So yeah, I totally love that thought. Absolutely the town
need They all are craving spice. They're maybe just too
comfortable or scared or honestly, and I don't say this

(53:20):
in a mean way, just kind of dumb to notice
that they need spice, that they actually are craving. It's comfortable.

Speaker 3 (53:26):
This film nicely like wants to. I think Crowbar like
being dumb and just like being ignorant. Right, they haven't
encountered And this is this is where we see like
the sort of like nineties Visibility as progress sort of
narrative that like if they just met some trans people
then they would change, right, And this is the whole
idea of like you need to be out, you need
we need have visibility on TV. And I'm like, I'm

(53:50):
not sure, Like that's like.

Speaker 5 (53:53):
I think.

Speaker 3 (53:56):
If they're not meeting queer and people of color at
this point, it's because they're choosing not to. Hmmm. True,
that absolutely, comparing this even to like Rocky Horror Picture Show,
which is also about catalyzing straight people and releasing their repression.
But Rocky Horror Picture Show it's a gothic narrative and
so the street the normies go into this carnivalesque space

(54:20):
right and are transformed, whereas this is actually a little
more compelling. They're traveling at great risk into these spaces
and catalyzing them.

Speaker 2 (54:29):
Yeah, that's true, absolutely, And.

Speaker 3 (54:32):
It's queer people leaving their own bubble, right, yes, yes, on.

Speaker 2 (54:37):
A queer mission. But in order to fulfill that queer
mission and the ending, that last scene is so much
fun in the great like version of girls just want
to have fun. Oh it's so sweet, It's so great.
But yes, so they're on a queer mission. It's just great,
a great journey that you have to go through some

(54:57):
anti queer places, right, everything from this town of Snydersville,
but even Balakan shout out to Balakan would, I'm from
Greater Philadelphia, So I completely forgot that this movie talks
about balakin Wood, Pennsylvania. I'm like, so random, but even
so random, oh my god, because it's normal. It's like, okay,
what so I feel like maybe Douglas Carter Bean or

(55:19):
someone had to be from Balikan would to put that in.
But Vita's family, which is again I mean it's camp,
you know, but for mom to come out and like Claire,
you know, but they all maybe not Maxema, she maybe
is the only one. I feel like I don't know
much about her life before the frame of film, you know,

(55:40):
I feel like a little bit more about or.

Speaker 3 (55:42):
We at least visit her home.

Speaker 2 (55:44):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, So you know, it's interesting to see.

Speaker 3 (55:50):
Places right, Maxima's feats seem to be about like connecting
with the the survey ancestors and and the archivist. I
would say, yeah, the tribe, you're like, it's.

Speaker 2 (56:05):
Kind of like she's she's looked. She her past is
in the it's connected to older people and and like
the history of culture, not so much her history, which
which works. It's cool. But yeah, she's a little distress.

Speaker 3 (56:21):
Which makes which also moves the film into another kind
of interesting sub genre, a queer cinema, which is like
mentorship films. Yeah, and and I and I think that
this is a really good example of life when you
when you're your tribe is a chosen family, how do
we carry on history? It's like an interesting interesting Yeah.

Speaker 2 (56:42):
How do you uphold that when you're actively kind of
like picking your family and leaving some traditions behind. Yeah,
that's interesting. I love not seen with stuff with the
with the old Lady from a Ton of Things Ghostbuster, Yeah, totally.

Speaker 3 (56:58):
And also by and connecting with her like the old
ladies like, oh there are other people right who because
the film marks her is very isolated and almost like
Missus Havisham like where she's just sort of stuck in
the past, right, and so you have this sort of
like empathy. Yeah, those two characters.

Speaker 2 (57:17):
Yeah, absolutely, well said do.

Speaker 5 (57:19):
You like my name?

Speaker 4 (57:21):
They may turn this town from drab to utterly utterly fabulous.

Speaker 2 (57:29):
Yeah. The whole cast is great, such great, familiar. We
have Blake Danner, Beth Grant, you know, Michael Vartan, who
is who then ended up not being a bully and
like anything that he did, but it's so interesting to
see him as this like, you know, young awful guy.
And again I was I was scared for Chee Chee
when like the guys come out and they're circling her.

(57:49):
So like, the movie definitely shows some real scary, stressful moments,
you know, and then it's able to struggle it with
like such light, wholesome humor.

Speaker 3 (57:59):
So it would be really interesting to do see how
straight people and gay people read that scene differently, because
I think they conceide of the film is that this
is a comedy. No real violence is going to happen
to these main characters, and you're someone insulated by them,
and I think it's a quer spectator. You're like, that
could definitely happen.

Speaker 2 (58:15):
Oh yeah, yeah, and to me That's why I kind
of kept forgetting, like, Oh, these country bumpkins are so dumb.
They don't really know that these are drag queens, right,
They think they're it's women. So I kind of had
to keep remembering that because that scene in particular with
chee Chi and the guys circling her, brings me back
to like boys don't cry, where it's like they know
something's different, so they want to explore and find it

(58:39):
out for themselves, you know. When it's still scary, I
think they want to, I guess, possibly rape her, or
you know, they just think she's a woman. I viewed
it at first in this first rewatch in a while
as like, oh, they think maybe she is a cis
man or what you know, I don't know. It just
it really stressed me out. I was like, oh, thank god,

(59:00):
you know that nice guy picks her up. But see
he doesn't even know, he doesn't he can't tell. So yeah,
you kind of have to suspend your disbelief a little
bit because I think really only stock Or Channing is
the one. And I'll never forget this was the movie
because I was a kid when when this was on.
I was by the time I saw it might have
been ten. This movie made me realize, oh yeah, men

(59:20):
are the only people that have Adam's apples. Okay, right.
I never really thought about that at that age because
it's like whatever. But when she says Adam's apple, you know,
I was like, that's right. I remember, like, yeah, that's
very interesting. You'll learn something.

Speaker 3 (59:35):
They were like that you can shave that away. I
share your love for soccer Channing. When I was younger,
I was in the stage version of Sixtygrees of Separation,
another like amazing role of hers, and so I lung
love for her. She's she's like Elizabeth Taylor adjacent to me,

(59:55):
you know. Oh yeah, she's a rassy lady. I've always
like loved that time.

Speaker 6 (01:00:04):
Wesley slips, Look, I'm sorry about the way the Civil
War turns out.

Speaker 4 (01:00:09):
Patrick Swayze, I gather you like hitting ladies.

Speaker 2 (01:00:11):
Some ladies need to get here.

Speaker 4 (01:00:14):
And John Lakeuizamo, I got.

Speaker 2 (01:00:17):
Hey, Rewinders, I'm pausing this fabulous conversation with doctor Andy
to tell you about another great podcast, also on the
You run podcast network. That is The Horror Nerd Experience,
a show that focuses on you guessed it, horror all
Things Horror, hosted by LK the Horror Nerd, a deaf, blind,
non binary trans woman who is a longtime horror content creator.

(01:00:41):
Enjoy the screams and check them out after this episode.
Now let's get back on the road and continue our
colorful celebration here on release day rewind before we go
to Vegas to thrust it. Here are cameos from my
friends who also love these movies, Jordan Raymond and Costa Ku.

Speaker 4 (01:01:01):
To Wang Fu. Thanks for everything, Julie Numar.

Speaker 5 (01:01:07):
It's one of those pieces that indulges a kind of
fantasy world that at the time we hadn't experienced. And
it's not perfect, but it created like this genuine story
about characters who are gentle and human and are just

(01:01:30):
trying to transcend the world around them through their perception
of and their interactions with it.

Speaker 2 (01:01:39):
It's just oh, pure lovely camp.

Speaker 4 (01:01:47):
Show Girls. Believe your inhibitions at the door.

Speaker 1 (01:01:53):
Hey, my name is Costa from Bulgaria. I love Showgirls
because it's a really, really bold movie. It really doesn't
apologize for what it is and what it's trying to tackle.
And there's a choreographer I'm obsessed with the dance sequences
choreographed by Margerite Derek's and just how full out everything is.

Speaker 2 (01:02:19):
So what are you going to Vegas for?

Speaker 4 (01:02:20):
You're gonna win, I'm gonna dance.

Speaker 2 (01:02:23):
You've acted in things before, right, Have I maybe seen
you in something?

Speaker 4 (01:02:26):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:02:26):
I've done a turner too.

Speaker 2 (01:02:28):
Yeah, okay, okay, all right, because I knew your face
before before I started like knowing you, you know, so, yeah,
you popped up somewhere from You've.

Speaker 3 (01:02:38):
Done a couple of music videos. I was in the
documentary for the Namemare on Elm Street series called screen
Queen My Name Are on Elm Street.

Speaker 2 (01:02:45):
Okay, I donated to that and okay, yes, I had
the filmmakers from that on my old podcast, So maybe
that's where I kind of knew your face. Yes, okay,
I was.

Speaker 3 (01:02:54):
I was talking head and then they came to my
classroom when we discussed the film.

Speaker 2 (01:02:59):
And that's probably how I knew you.

Speaker 3 (01:03:02):
Yeah, okay, that's cool, And that's where a lot of
people recognize me from. So that was one of my claims. Amazing,
it's a Onred Run Tomatoes. Still, that's wow, I like.

Speaker 2 (01:03:12):
Yeah, great. I had filmmakers and Mark Patten on my
old show They were great.

Speaker 3 (01:03:16):
Yeah, yeah, if if if anyone's a fan of the
I'm On Street series, this documentary it could have been
an easy, like fan service documentary, but it's about so
much more. It's about Hollywood in the eighties and aids,
paranoia and and so that's it's it's a really it's
got a lot of hard to it. And I got
to tour with Mark Patten when we the documentary, so

(01:03:37):
I was actually on this will segue nextly, when I
was on the road with Scream Queen. We were touring
at the same time as you Don't Know Me, which
is the Showgirls documentary.

Speaker 2 (01:03:47):
Oh that's right, which I still haven't seen.

Speaker 3 (01:03:49):
I need to say, watch it after this conversation, because
they do a really spectacular job of basically offered like seeing,
what is this film all for two different types of people? Right,
people who people who read it as pure camp, people
who read it as a lovable piece of trash, people
who read it as a brilliant extension of their open's work.

(01:04:13):
And so it kind of in that like the documentary
about the Shining Room. Oh yeah, right, I think it
kind of goes down these different like here, here's here's
why this is a cold film, you know, and so
I really recommend it.

Speaker 2 (01:04:27):
Oh that's so interesting. Thank you for reminding me about that.
I came on a few years ago, not too long ago,
I think, right, it was on my radar and then,
you know, like anything, it's like that just keeps growing
and you're.

Speaker 3 (01:04:37):
Like, what's up this one? Yeah? Right, I think I
think twenty nineteen is when we were touring, so so
it was cool. Yeah, wow, oh I love it.

Speaker 2 (01:04:45):
See okay, Now I love the connection because I'm like,
you're faced from somewhere else. There we go. I've been
casting for a while, so I'm like, was it submit
to something or like, did I see him in something?
That's anyway?

Speaker 3 (01:04:57):
Okay. These days I'm more of a writer. So I
actually wrote a show that premiered at Denver Fringe Festival
for you and one Best Audience Award, and so we
are restaging it in October. So it's Arkham ass Asylum.
It's the villains of Batman put them on trial like
Chicago style.

Speaker 2 (01:05:16):
Oh is it is it a short or is it
like a full length play?

Speaker 3 (01:05:20):
It's a full length play.

Speaker 2 (01:05:21):
Yeah, it's for you.

Speaker 3 (01:05:23):
Each of the villains has the I've written their backstories,
so it's it's a lot of Bain went to gay
conversion camp. It's a lot of fun.

Speaker 2 (01:05:31):
Oh I love this so much. Did you have to
like do anything with like rights to do this or no?
Because it's like a sort of heardy right exactly?

Speaker 3 (01:05:38):
Is DC doing so great with their properties? Anyway?

Speaker 2 (01:05:40):
Who care? Whatever?

Speaker 3 (01:05:42):
Get you need?

Speaker 2 (01:05:44):
That's what I say. I just wrote a short on
my second short play, and it's a parody sort of.
I mean it's like very loosely, but it's still pretty accurate,
all about the Blake Lively justin Baldoni drama. It's so
stupidly interesting. So anyway, yeah, we'll have to do a
whole episode on playwriting. But okay, now, everybody, we're just

(01:06:04):
going a couple weeks later, still staying in September nineteen
ninety five. The glitz, the sparkles, the boobs, they're all coming.
Look there, you gotta light that sucker up. There's no me,
sat No me is right here with us. We're gonna
talk show Girls. What a wild movie. Andy. I can't
believe I'm saying this to you, especially a film professor,

(01:06:25):
a film guide. But and I'm saying this on the show.
But guys, can you believe? I had seen clips of Showgirls,
but I realized until last week, I had never seen
the movie in full. Oh interesting, isn't that wild? Yeah?
I had seen like talking like the ending when she's
beating up the guy.

Speaker 3 (01:06:39):
I had seen.

Speaker 2 (01:06:40):
Moments probably on TV like what's yeah show Girl, right,
but never saw the full thing until a few days ago.
Soo wow. But okay, let me just set the scene
real quick. So we talked about, you know, popular music,
popular news at the time. These were some other things
that were popular in September. Okay, everybody Zena talk about
Queer Zena. Warrior Princess had just premiered a couple weeks prior,

(01:07:02):
as did the Drew Carey show and Brother They Love
with the Lawrence Brothers. I was a big fan back
in the day. They were all starting right, sort of
you know, pop culture stuff going on. Jennifer of WW
had just joined Party of five season two. She was
like the girl of course, right. Other popular movies at
this time besides Showgirls. In tung Fu Dangerous Minds, we
mentioned Gangster's Paradise, Mortal Kombat, a very popular movie within

(01:07:26):
the queer community. I think that's very interesting. Really, I
feel like I feel like a lot of queer people
I know love Mortal Kombat Hackers. Yeah, totally totally right.
We have Hackers with Angelina, Joe Lee, The Usual Suspects,
and seven seven came out the same day as Showgirls,
So very interesting movies that are like pretty mean. I

(01:07:49):
have to say, like, you know, Showgirls is dumb fun,
but like show Girls is so it's it's like you
can't take your eyes off of it. But and it's
a fun movie, but it's also just so hard, what
a hard life. Everyone's so mean to each other. And
then seven we know it's just so brutal. So we have, yeah,
the top two movies at this on this weekend, September

(01:08:10):
twenty second, ninety five. We're just kind of brutal movies.
So here are where people were in their careers and
they're gonna throw it over to you, Andy. So show
Girls was written by Joe Estherhaus.

Speaker 4 (01:08:21):
I believe something like that.

Speaker 3 (01:08:23):
The Sultan of song writing.

Speaker 2 (01:08:25):
You're Leezy mcsles exactly. He wrote Basic Instinct, Sliver a
personal guilty pleasure of mine. Jade, Remember Jade, No One
talks about Linda Sacruzo and Linda Fiorentino green Co. Oh yeah, right,
so he was having the time of his life in
the early nineties. He actually, because of this movie, he

(01:08:46):
was the highest paid screenwriter in Hollywood history. He made
like I think, at least three million plus just from Showgirls.
And speaking of mean, maybe this makes a little bit
of sense just because the dialogue, like I guess it
was real. Apparently he you know, talk to real show girls,
real Vegas people, and this is you know, dialogue that
was happening, and it was the mid nineties and people
were a little rough with each other, I guess. But

(01:09:08):
he also wrote this during his divorce, So I'm like,
that explains why everyone's so nasty to each other. Right,
So he's our writer. Directed by Paul Verhoven made Basic Instinct,
Total Recall Robocops, so really knows his way around like
a visual movie. That's why this movie looks almost too

(01:09:28):
good that it needs to me. It's beautiful, Like just
the close ups of Elizabeth Berkeley. I'm like, oh my god,
this movie is stunning. Right, So he's our director. He
had told the writer Joe that he had always loved
Big MGM Musicals and wanted to make one and this
is what making. So this was their They're owed to
MGM Musicals. Right. They interviewed over two hundred Vegas strippers

(01:09:52):
and incorporated partner stories into the screenplay. So you know,
real quick, let's talk about our leads, just our our
top three. Elizabeth Burke know Me. Wow, we got lots
to talk about with know Me. But of course, of course,
at this at this time, she was most famous for
Saved by the Bell. Can you show everyone your shirt

(01:10:12):
that you're wearing and that you have.

Speaker 3 (01:10:14):
Yeah, so this is part of our Saved by the
Bell mashups with show girls with this one, and I'm
so excited. I'm so scared.

Speaker 2 (01:10:28):
Oh god, iconic. I love it so much. And the background, yeah,
it's very Saved by the Bell. So Andy is repping
know Me between the candles, between the the merch. Right,
So she, of course, we know was most famous for
Saved by the Bell. And listen, thirty years later, I
get it, like you're on this wholesome TV show, You're
not really the Like the lead girl on Saved by

(01:10:49):
the Bell was kind of Tiffany Thesin. I mean, they
all were leads, but you know, like she was sort
of the babe I guess, so of course, you know
she'd want to do something daring. I feel like a
lot of girls on TV in the nine he's wanted
to then, you know, be daring in something else and
shake it up, right. Yeah, she really she was kind.

Speaker 3 (01:11:06):
Of like the humorless feminist on the show. You know
what I mean, doing something is gonna push the needle
on that staryage. Just smart, right, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:11:16):
And and yeah, I think I'm sure she thought maybe
it was going to be a little different, maybe it
was gonna come out a little different. So you know,
we'll talk more about that. But then we have Gina Gershawan,
who was just she scares me, Like she's so sexy
and so intense that, like anything, I watch her and
I'm immediately scared. I was an extra years ago, or
maybe I was a stand in years ago when I
lived in New York. In between jobs, I would do

(01:11:38):
like stand in and extra work, and I worked on
her show on HBO I think it's called How to
Make It in America, And just being near her, I
was scared. I was like, Oh, she's intense, she's just
got such like a cool, sexy, like serious like she
just tells it to you straight, like she makes it
look easy. Right, So she is so good in this movie.

(01:11:59):
Her stares can cut daggers right. She was last in
This was an interesting time for her because she was
on the rise.

Speaker 3 (01:12:06):
Like it's funny because.

Speaker 2 (01:12:09):
Bound is after, yeah, like a year after, which really
put her on that kind of fun, sexy, sleazy journey
that she was on that she owned, you know, but yeah,
we forget that, Like she wasn't really a full blown
star yet. She had done some episodes in Melrose Place,
she did a lot of TV. She was in the Player,
she was and I think Nancy Sinatra in a TV

(01:12:30):
movie of Sinatra right before this, So I mean she
was getting some meati rolls. But like, it's just funny
because Elizabeth Berkeley kind of sadly her career took a downturn,
and it seemed like Gina Gershawn kind of was on
the upslope because of Showgirls. So just interesting to see
how these two women kind of had a different aftermath
after this movie.

Speaker 3 (01:12:49):
Right, Yeah, yeah, absolutely, you know there's I don't know
if this is a true quote, but there's something about
where like everyone knew and the film knew that they
were making camp except for Elizabeth Berkeley.

Speaker 2 (01:13:02):
Oh it breaks my heart.

Speaker 3 (01:13:03):
I think it's hilarious. It's one of my great pleasures
in this film is watching Elizabeth Birkley thinks she's doing
like Shakespeare in the Park and everyone else knows they're
making a sleazy thing. But I mean that's Paul Varhoven.
He loves to take the dumbest idea and let's make
it high concept.

Speaker 2 (01:13:22):
Yeah, and let's like really commit to like everything every
word needs, right, it's so big. And speaking of Shakespeare
in the Park, I mean, yeah, Elizabeth Berkeley is acting
for the stage in this movie. It's like you down hair,
But I mean that's why the movie is what it is.

Speaker 3 (01:13:40):
I mean, put that on her, but I feel like
that's a direct and so I I think Elizabeth Berkeley
could have skyrocketed her career if she sort of managed
this the fallout from this film better. I think her
whatever people felt of her, like tacit embarrassment at this

(01:14:03):
film was a huge mistake on her. Pr Yeah, and
it took a long time to come around, like the
Hollywood Bowl and to finally like, yes, get the joke.

Speaker 2 (01:14:12):
You know, Yeah, it really is a bummer because obviously
this movie was influential enough to inspire a year. I
think later was strip Tease with Demi Moore, which was
a big deal. Also a big deal at least buzz wise.
I don't know if that made it, because this movie
didn't make its money back until home video. Talk about
home video, it made it its budget times a few times, right,
So this movie definitely had a mark on Hollywood. But

(01:14:35):
at the same time, it was so reviled at the time.
And yeah, the actors, especially Elizabeth were made to feel bad.

Speaker 4 (01:14:43):
So it's tough.

Speaker 2 (01:14:44):
I mean, her agent dropped her like yeah, which is
really not cool.

Speaker 3 (01:14:48):
Actually, you know, it's insane to me. They help Paul
Verhoven movie and you're gonna get dunce like right, yeah.
I think I think it was poor management of that
think she got really bad advice about how to manage
like this film.

Speaker 2 (01:15:04):
Afterwards, there's a spot opening the chorus line, we're auditioning
tomorrow morning.

Speaker 4 (01:15:13):
I think you should try out.

Speaker 3 (01:15:17):
But you know what, like if we look at like
the response to this film, basically what you get is
a bunch of people who just don't understand what camp is.

Speaker 2 (01:15:25):
Yeah, that's true.

Speaker 3 (01:15:26):
And and so a lot of the criticism about this
film is like, what a piece of trash. I can't
believe people take this seriously, and we're like, no, we're
not seriously. That is that is the sheer pleasure of
this film is that it's we're enjoying the trashiness of it.

Speaker 2 (01:15:41):
The only thing to take seriously is talk about a
left turn, which I remember seeing this younger was the
right like her good friend. Which also it comes at
a very strange time in the movie, like we're wrapping
things up and now we have this new problem. You
know it, I don't, I don't. I mean I've saying
I absolutely, I know we're jumping around, but I there

(01:16:03):
is something the visual of Nomi kicking the shit out
of this singer guy who is awful, and she's topless
and she's I mean, that is like whoa Like now
I feel like, oh, actually, we're watching a great movie.
It's just a different it's just a whole different story.
It's almost kind of like that could have been a
really dark, badass, memorable, gritty movie. But that's in the

(01:16:28):
last ten minutes, you know what I mean?

Speaker 3 (01:16:30):
And So this is the problem of like what you
were talking about, like the switching tones of this film
is like you've already sort of established like a show grammar,
and then you're gonna drop a rape revenge moment in
there in a way that doesn't feel earned, you know
what I mean. It is with a character who's lovely,
but we don't know much about her, so she feels

(01:16:52):
like she's being used as a prop. It feels like
we're refrigerating her basically to give motivation to Nomi's character.
That's true, it doesn't need she has enough reason on
her own, you know what I mean to be a badass.
We don't have to take like one of the few
actors of color and punish them in this brutal way
in order to mobilize the white plot.

Speaker 2 (01:17:14):
That's so interesting. Yeah, and you know again, the cast
is great. I mean, everyone's great in their in their roles.
I mean, however you want to spin it, I mean,
everyone's committed, right, But it is interesting that we only have,
from what I can remember, like two you know, bigger
supporting people of color, and they bend over backwards for
know me, they give especially her friend Mollie. I mean

(01:17:40):
when they meet, like, Molly, what are you doing with
this girl?

Speaker 3 (01:17:44):
Friends?

Speaker 5 (01:17:45):
Right?

Speaker 2 (01:17:46):
But like they do everything for her and her love interests.
The guy, I mean, he is pining for her, and
I'm like, this girl is awful to you. You know,
it is kind of weird, you know, I hope. I'm
sure it was sort of accidental to I think they
probably were just like let's get some people of color
in this. But it's just weird how those people are

(01:18:06):
so like you said, they are really only there to
aid know Me's journey, and we don't really know about
them other than how they are around know me. Like
it's a little a little icky, you know, from of
an accident.

Speaker 3 (01:18:21):
I guess there's there's a trope of the magical Negro
of course, you know who the legend of bagger Vans
that shows up and seems to have no family and
no goals of their own right.

Speaker 2 (01:18:35):
Their goal is for me to work, right, both of
their goals. Really, we know at least that Molly's this
great seamstress, you know, she gets the job, and the
guy is a choreographer. But like it's kind of like
well without know me, like would they still have work?
Would they have dreams. It's it's a little weird, but yeah, people.

Speaker 3 (01:18:54):
People like say, I give this film too much credit
in terms of his references, But Paul Vrahoven is a
heavily referential director. Like if you've seen like The Ninth Man,
he basically remakes his own movie as basic instinct, and
so he, like Hitchcock, has this sort of echo chamber
of referentiality. And I would argue that part of Molly

(01:19:16):
and Nomi's relationship is it's a Douglas circ film that's
just imitation of life. Their relationship feels very imitation of life.
Where they cohabitate, they feel like a married couple. But
you have that sort of thing where she's treating her
black friend very much like her servant, right or assistant,

(01:19:37):
and so that sort of exploitation of labor. I don't
feel like this film goes anywhere with it. I think
if it is a reference, it's just sort of or
it's just coded into how Verhoven tells stories about female friendships,
which is also a little fraught. In the work of Verhoven.
There are very few female bonds that aren't toxic in

(01:19:58):
the work of Verhoven.

Speaker 2 (01:20:00):
Is interesting. Actually you're right.

Speaker 3 (01:20:01):
Yeah, so I think there's really something. But if we
go like mythology on this, oh yeah, but I would,
But it is a backstage musical plot, so it's it's
kind of like All about Eve turned on its head
a little bit, a.

Speaker 2 (01:20:14):
Little bit of forty second Street too. I was thinking
of right with a younger, newer girl, and.

Speaker 3 (01:20:20):
Yep, totally. And what I say with my students is,
like the nextdoor music, backstage musical plot is any ingeneu,
here's an opportunity, the main actor can't fulfill the role.
There's usually some sort of accident and they here's a
big chance at it, right, And there's usually this sort
of coded romantic relationship between the director and the ingeneux, right,

(01:20:41):
and so there's a sort of dovetail often. But in
a modern setting, the sports film is just the backstage musical. Right,
we replace the director with the coach, the rookie becomes
the ingenue. Fame so equals fame or to walk away
from fame is the answer, which is answer and imitation
of life that its fame is not worth the cost

(01:21:04):
to your romantic relationships, and so you you need to
give up that dream and find other dreams. Is often
the other lesson, right, and so a Star is Born
is the narrative, but a Star is Born is also
magic Mike, It's also show Girls. It's also you know, right, yeah,
it's funny.

Speaker 2 (01:21:23):
Hell yeah, these are all all the it's just.

Speaker 3 (01:21:28):
Devil wars Praduct. Yeah right. And and what's interesting I
would link. I would put Devil wors Praduct and show
Girls probably in the same course, to read them back
to back, because I would argue that mythologically, they're both
the trials of Hera, which is a story of a
young maiden. There's one of Artemis who has to go

(01:21:49):
to Harah. Harrah says like, in this herculean way, you
have to complete these eleven tasks to prove yourself, and
at the end Artemis walks away.

Speaker 2 (01:21:58):
Oh that's so interesting. I love I don't know it
well enough, but I love Greek mythology. So you are
speaking the language.

Speaker 3 (01:22:03):
Oh my god, wait, just wait, and so you can
say that this is okay, maybe that's a thing. But like,
think about the plot of show Girls, which is about
she starts as a cheetah, she works her way up
to almost being a goddess, and she decides I don't
want this. This is artificial, this is fake. I'm going
to return back to being a cheetah. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:22:22):
Interesting, she's going down to the stars. She's gonna be
in the show.

Speaker 5 (01:22:28):
Right.

Speaker 4 (01:22:28):
If someone gets in your way, step on her, it's
not fair.

Speaker 2 (01:22:33):
It's not about fair, It's about power.

Speaker 3 (01:22:36):
You're a stripper, don't you get it. I'm a damn
I think she's discovered that she that this is a space.

Speaker 2 (01:22:42):
Of artifice, you know, which would that's a great point.

Speaker 3 (01:22:45):
And this is this is what she doesn't want. She
did this sort of like it's it's not it's not
her claws, right, and that she chooses to go back
to kind of like being an animal and the hitchhiking
and and I mean I think we could read this
is like she's on to the next place, right, Yeah,
sot stop on her journey. I mean one of the
other things the film could be riffing on is Wizard

(01:23:09):
of Oz, right, and so Dorothy Ribs and there's the
evil witch, right that she has to defeat and the
sort of director as this sort of phony.

Speaker 2 (01:23:20):
You know, right, you're so right. Yeah, that's a good
analogy too.

Speaker 4 (01:23:23):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:23:24):
Oh gosh, oh yeah, speaking up I didn't get a chance.
Let's talk about col macloch really quick, all right. So
he was our third lead. He funny time in his life.
A year before this he was in The Flintstones, so
very It's very different movies, you know, family and this
having crazy sex in the pool. I mean, like what,
he's such a babe and I don't know, in my

(01:23:45):
lame I kind of like the swoop he's sporting in
the movie. I don't know, it works for me.

Speaker 3 (01:23:49):
It's funny. He doesn't do anything for me.

Speaker 2 (01:23:50):
That's so oh really he doesn't. Wow.

Speaker 4 (01:23:54):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (01:23:56):
A couple of years later on Sex and the City was.

Speaker 3 (01:23:58):
Like wow, I think because he's coded as so artificial
and the swimming pool scene is like he has he
has a forest of fake trees. I just find him
like laughable in in his like construction of like, I
don't know, vain wealth display. But I and I find

(01:24:23):
I don't know, how do you feel watching The Sex Seed?
It was interesting with my students.

Speaker 2 (01:24:28):
Oh my god, what pere are your students?

Speaker 3 (01:24:33):
Are? They like to range freshman? Freshman?

Speaker 2 (01:24:38):
Okay, wow, okay, this is class so I probably had more.
Okay that must have been so wild. Yeah, I had
seen clips of that for sure, but what in the world. Like, Also,
going back to the Exorcist, because I've talked about that
movie on the show. I thought of young Linda Blair
hurting her back, and then I'm like, Elizabeth berk is back,
cannot be comfortable doing this. It was crazy. It was

(01:25:00):
crazy like and it's just so funny because a couple
of years after that, we got a hot, crazy, you know,
sex scene in the pool in Wild Things. But I mean,
at least that was a bit more grounded, you know.
This was just so oh and speaking of I just
realized they both both of those crazy sleazy movies feature
Champagne on the on the boobies. There we go. But no,

(01:25:23):
that scene was wild. I knew it was coming. I
don't know, you know what was actually more wild Andy
is I had never seen her lap dance. When when
Gina Kashawan, you know, says I want you to, you know,
give him a dance. Whoa, and again goes so crazy.
But it's I don't know that I would have loved
to have a camera on my face. I should have

(01:25:44):
been recording myself watching like my jaw was dropped like
that was obviously very sexual. But I even was kind
of like, whoa, we are going for it, Like just
this movie is wild wild. What did you think when
you first saw it?

Speaker 3 (01:26:01):
Good question?

Speaker 2 (01:26:02):
Were you in the theater or did you wait for home?

Speaker 3 (01:26:04):
I probably want way for home, is my feeling. I
just remember people making fun of it. Ye, maybe I
did go to the theater on this one. It feels
like something I would have done.

Speaker 2 (01:26:14):
I would love everyone next time it plays on the
big screen. I have to go next time you have
it at one of your Rainbow Call events. I'm flying
and I'm going because I need to see this now
because I was alone, so I need to see this
with people on the big screen to just process it more.

Speaker 3 (01:26:30):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know when we did this
as a like commersive screening, we had a nail station
for everyone, so had their their their claws. I'm curious
what you think about like how their Joven uses lesbianism
in his films, because we have this, we have basic instinct.
We have benedicta the yes. But I heard there's a

(01:26:55):
preoccupation that he has and I'm not sure it's all
about the desire, you know, I think he is very
interested in pursuing like toxic female bonds, and often that
gets overlaid with sexual desire. Yeah, how would you characterize
the relationship of Crystalmi I suppose God.

Speaker 2 (01:27:17):
Well, see, it's it's all over the place because sometimes
because Crystal wants for whatever reason, even though she doesn't
like Gnomi, she wants to give her gifts, she wants
to give her work jobs, auditions. It's weird because then
as Gnomi is rising because of Crystal's help, right as
Nomi's rising, then Crystal doesn't seem to like that and

(01:27:39):
then wants to give her the jobs that are bad,
like the boat show with the slazy guys. Right, So
it's this very strange You're really you hit on the
head because it's like there's this attraction, this sexual intensity
between the two of them. But Verhoven's kind of like
and and I don't know if you feel this way
with you know, gay eroticism, but at least with lesbian interaction.

(01:28:04):
It's like I want you, but I also want to
hurt you. It's like this like not that he's homophobic,
but like it's just this interesting way to have same
sex sexuality and eroticism. But then it so quickly then
becomes truly violent or just angry, like, So, I don't
know what he's getting at there where it just is

(01:28:26):
for him? Does he view you know what? Maybe you agree?
Is he thinking, Wow, if I was a gay man,
I would just be so competitive with my lover because
I want to look like that. I want to be
that sexy and you can't. So is it like an
immediate and innate like competition with sexuality? Right?

Speaker 4 (01:28:45):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:28:46):
There's an interesting moment in Basic Instinct that gets kind
of gets doubled here where she's like, I want you
to give him a lap dance and I'm going to watch, right,
And so she places herself in like the typical male
spectator watching two women curt Of. And then we also
get that in Basic Instinct where Rochie Roxy watches from

(01:29:07):
the closet as Michael Douglas and Sharon Stone sex. And
so there's this really great reading of Basic Instinct via
Camille Pagliac, who is slightly crazy but she dos some
interesting stuff sometimes. But she says in Basic Instinct, we
look at like Michael Keaton's or Michael Douglas's like low tops,

(01:29:30):
like his breasts are on despray all the time, and
he's the lesbian in that movie. And yeah, and Katherin
Tremmell and Roxy are the straight couple who are watching
for Kinks. Yeah, so I think he loves doingvert typical
voyeurism relationships. He loves to make films like Basically Instinct

(01:29:50):
where Catherine Tremmel controls the interview room because she's made
herself into a spectacle. And that's very counter to how
we typically talk about the male gaze, right that looking
at some one confers control. But his films again and
again saying like making yourself into a spectacle and making
them look at you is a form of control as well.

Speaker 4 (01:30:12):
From the creators of Basic Instincts.

Speaker 3 (01:30:16):
The last time.

Speaker 4 (01:30:18):
They took you to the edge. This time they're taking
you all the way.

Speaker 2 (01:30:24):
You can feel Crystal's control in that lap dance scene
and really throughout the whole movie. I mean when they
go out to lunch. I mean, Gina Kurshan is very
good at that sexy stare, but it's that whole It's
like what I really was thinking of was I think
then Jenelle Money even used this in a song, But
that whole line that has been in different things where
it's like everything's about sex, accept sex, which is about power. Right,

(01:30:48):
So I thought that really this is this is that
you know everything in Vegas, you know all these sexy bodies,
both male and female, but especially female, right, everything's about sex.
But then when you're actually really having these intimate moments,
whether they're like touching each other or not, but you know,
once you're really looking at each other, then it's more

(01:31:09):
of a power thing. Because then even the pool sex scene,
yeah it's sex, but then it's kind of like, is
that com Maclachlan's power over her?

Speaker 5 (01:31:18):
Right?

Speaker 3 (01:31:18):
Right? Well, I think that you're right, Like I think
that this is like part of the lesson in womanship
is that the tease is when you have power, once
you give them sex, you give up your power.

Speaker 2 (01:31:31):
You give up your power. Absolutely, And Nomi kind of
knows that because for a while in the in the
first like half or first third first act of the film,
like she's like no, like go it, Like she doesn't
really want to give things to Crystal because she she's smart.
She knows then you'll have those things of mine.

Speaker 3 (01:31:47):
Right. Yeah. The thing about just how like Burlesca is
a form is so different than say like drag right,
drag is tip supported you are in the people grabbing money.
Burlesque is like look right, especially the goddess right is
the ultimate look don't touch. And and so this idea
is like you you have the power when they lust you,

(01:32:08):
after you and they want you.

Speaker 2 (01:32:10):
But you know, yeah, it's like honestly, it's like anything.
It's like when you're i mean, like on the apps
or like send dick pics or whatever, like you know,
you're kind of like there's kind of more power or
like that. It's sort of sexier if you're withholding stuff, do.

Speaker 4 (01:32:27):
You know what I mean?

Speaker 3 (01:32:28):
Absolutely well, And then there's gosha if you want to
talk about the apps, there's so much vulnerability and sharing
and it's really sad. I think with gay male culture
is like the face is the last thing with that talk.

Speaker 2 (01:32:39):
About mean and brutal. Yeah, exactly right, Like that's the
last thing because it's like, well, what's for sale, you know,
what's give me the show? Yeah, and then once you
give it, it's like all right, well, yeah I saw it, goodbye,
you know, like.

Speaker 3 (01:32:53):
Right, that's right. Yeah, And so I think I think, yeah, absolutely,
this idea of sex as power, looking as power, but
not in the traditional way. Being looked at is power
in this film, and you know one of my favorite
films ever as Gentlemen for Blondes, same lesson in that film.
You know that being looked at is when you have
your power, and that when Marilyn Monroe says diamonds or

(01:33:16):
girl's best friend, she tells this little group of like girls. Right,
it's a tutelage song where she says, like, sell when
your market value is the highest God, right, think of
your body as a commodity, and get the diamonds because
those are sort of permanent. You're your body will change, right,
But but the diamonds never do. Yep, and they even

(01:33:40):
and even in that song they sort of like correlate
the woman's body with a diamond. Right. It's a raw
heroal Netta gets cut into the perfect shape, much like
Marilynroe's body was cut into you know the shah.

Speaker 2 (01:33:53):
Absolutely. Yeah, it's really interesting seeing all the DNA in
this film because it's it's it's a un film obviously, right,
like so it's it's its own thing. But I do
enjoy seeing the DNA from previous films and classics in
this so I and I think that's maybe why it
is still talked about is not only because it's camping

(01:34:13):
and it's almost like at the levels of like the Room,
you know, the film The Room of like quotable, what
the hell is this?

Speaker 3 (01:34:20):
Which I'm sure, yeah, but yeah, no, sorry, I keep
going about the quotability.

Speaker 2 (01:34:27):
No, but you know, because it's talked about because it's
just so odd and bad quote unquote, but also because
it is sort of like a nod and an ode
to these classic films, So it's mashing them all up
in this intentionally question mark, like trashy version of those classics,
which in that way is artistic.

Speaker 3 (01:34:48):
I want to see you dance, and I want to
see a smile. I can't use you if you can't smile.
I can't use you if you can't show.

Speaker 4 (01:34:55):
I can't use you if you can't sell.

Speaker 2 (01:34:57):
I find myself speechless with this movie because I want
to see it again, but I also don't. I love it,
but I also understand why. It's like like you feel dirty,
like with Wild Things, you feel dirty. But I love
that movie, like it's such a great and twisty I mean,
like it's thrilling.

Speaker 3 (01:35:16):
This movie.

Speaker 2 (01:35:16):
I felt dirty, and I guess I was kind of
sad at the end because it's just like, oh god,
we went through that just to leave, just to now, right, So.

Speaker 3 (01:35:25):
That is the maiden voyage, right, Yeah, all the girls
coming of Asian narrative and folklore is different than the
boys is usually the boys go forth, conquer the dragon,
take its goal, and institute yourself as king. Right in
miniature girls, we tell them go forth, go to Wonderland,
go to oz, go to Neverland. But it was all

(01:35:46):
just a dream. Get it out of your system.

Speaker 2 (01:35:48):
You're so right. Yeah, you'll learn something and then all right,
come back and cook me tonight.

Speaker 6 (01:35:53):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:35:53):
But I think to your point, it is not clear
that she's going back home. We get her returning to
who she was, and I think that's the big thing
about giving my bag, Right, Yes, I go back to
the part of me that I lost, but I've gained
that knowledge.

Speaker 2 (01:36:07):
Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. I didn't think about that too.
You're right, the missing bag and how she still wants
the bag. That is actually pretty great writing that we
not only you know, I mean, it's it's funny that
we see the guy and now we know, like, oh,
you're getting it this time, but it's more about the suitcase.
It's like, bring me back completely who I am? Yeah,

(01:36:29):
and I guess Yeah. I was just like, oh, yeah,
I guess is she leaving or is she just kind
of taking a break for a day and like gets
her suitcase and now she can be more of herself there. Yeah,
I don't know something about the ending. I just kind
of felt like I just I think I need more
time to honestly let it like marinate, which is also
just a bigger thing about like film criticism, Like sometimes
you just can't write the review the day you see
the movie, you know what I mean.

Speaker 3 (01:36:48):
Yeah, but I think costuming too tells us she's the cowboy.

Speaker 2 (01:36:54):
True, she's dressed like she was in the beginning.

Speaker 3 (01:36:56):
She's leaving the corrupt town.

Speaker 2 (01:36:58):
Yeah, she's kind of becoming You're right, she's kind of
covering herself back up into her armor, you know, of
the real world, because here the uniform is fairly anything right.

Speaker 3 (01:37:11):
Well, yeah, I mean if we think of like the
spaghetti western, which is kind of like the European version
of the Samurai film, the Runin film, it's like the
conflict is you're gonna go into this town, and the
question is is this town even worth saving? Right? And
I think, sure, girl says it's not, and then best
thing I can do is leave it. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:37:29):
Yeah, And with show Girls it's maybe is this it's maybe,
it's not is this town worth saving? It's more like
is this town worth it for me to like save
myself kind of thing? Right, It's it's it's the same question.

Speaker 3 (01:37:43):
But the Colway says, can I integrate into this town
that i've you know, and and and usually not they
have to hop right off into the sunset.

Speaker 2 (01:37:50):
Yeah, I don't know. The more we're talking about it,
I do like it.

Speaker 3 (01:37:53):
It's just so.

Speaker 4 (01:37:54):
Bonkers fall in love with the desire is intense. You
can't touch me, but I can touch you, to touch you.

Speaker 2 (01:38:03):
The show is about to begin something I just want
to shout out that I do love. Although again with
the casting, it's just a little tricky for another black
character to be this way. But I do love the
b story, c story, you know sub story of the
two other dancers really fighting, you know next to know
me at and like how that leads to major changes

(01:38:27):
and violence, you know, with dropping the like the you know, diamonds,
the jewels whatever they are. Oh my god, and know me,
my job was dropped.

Speaker 4 (01:38:36):
I was I to know that.

Speaker 2 (01:38:37):
I mean, I'm not surprised that that happened. I figured
something that was gonna happen, but I was just like,
oh my god, Oh my god, my god.

Speaker 4 (01:38:43):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:38:44):
And and then how know me and the one woman
the mother you right, then they kind of become very
similar where it's like our little secret like tough break, right,
and that's when Molly can see like, ooh, know me,
you've gone too far, you know, like, oh, you're deep
in this and that it's not worth it.

Speaker 4 (01:39:03):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:39:04):
Yeah. It's interesting because this film is playing on all
about Eve, but all about Eve centers us with Margo Channing.
So if this was a true adaptation, maybe centered around
Crystal's character, but we're not. We're sending around Eve Harrington,
and Eve Harrington gets revealed to be the sort of
Machabellian monster, and the film's kind of like, well, that's
just that's Hollywood, baby, you know what I mean. And

(01:39:26):
and so this film, I think instantly she does she's
not the one who commits the act. She is complicit,
let's say, like, but then she gets this sort of
moment of like Crystal acknowledging her, which she's not, like,
job well done. Yes, it so, And that was a
very different movie than and And for me, it really

(01:39:47):
goes back to this like Trials of Hara artonist in
the Trials of Hara.

Speaker 2 (01:39:51):
That is really so interesting. I love that connection. And
then yeah, then we have the classic you know, Nomi
does push Crystal down. Maybe she was inspired by the
girls next to her right right on the stairs, you know,
such an iconic you know, you know, stereotypical in a way,
you know, movement for dancers to do right. And then
now she's she's the gamble as as they the guy say,

(01:40:14):
you know, but.

Speaker 3 (01:40:15):
They kind of got LaToya Jackson though kind of gotten
anybody Jackson.

Speaker 2 (01:40:24):
Yeah, but you know it's just it really and the
all but dancing, the spectacle of the show you know
that they're doing is phenomenal. I mean, the work involved
with those sets in the choreography, like it really is
a show Girls is a true feast for your eyes.
It might not be a feast for your brain, but wow, like.

Speaker 3 (01:40:43):
My brain, I love picking it apart. But I think,
like Susan Soundtag's classic definition of unintentional camp is strained seriousness,
you know, but I think this is intentional camp. I
think he knows exactly what he's doing. The Vegas numbers
are so flashy, and it's so hollow, right, and and

(01:41:04):
it's really just like the play of surfaces. It's played
with fetish where it's just play of surfaces, you know
what I mean, there's no there's no there there.

Speaker 2 (01:41:14):
Right, Yeah, you're right. It does feel hollow. It feels
just like, yeah, this is this is you know what.
When we watch those dancing scenes on stage, it does
kind of feel like, yeah, this is the two o'clock show.
Then there's a four o'clock show, and then you're like,
you know what I mean. Even though it's so you know,
well made, well shot, like you know, fun to see,
it feels very much like and And maybe that's also

(01:41:35):
the good acting of like those supporting characters like I
Love Gay, the the sort of dance captain, the stage manager,
you know, all that crazy chaos. So it really is
a wild movie. I'm so glad I finally have seen it.
You think I would have been obsessed with it years ago,
but I don't know. Maybe I was scared to watch it.
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:41:54):
I was just kind of like, if you if you
ever get a chance the normally we have like a
director's come Terarry Wright on DVD's I Believe the reissue
DVD of Show Girls in the box set with the
titty tassels. It has a commentary track by Charles Nelson Bush,
who did like Lesbian Vampires.

Speaker 2 (01:42:14):
Of Yes, I love Charles Bush. Oh yeah, Cycle Beach.

Speaker 3 (01:42:16):
Party, Beach Party. Yeah, so he has a.

Speaker 2 (01:42:20):
Like a commentary.

Speaker 3 (01:42:21):
Oh wow, it's hilarious.

Speaker 2 (01:42:23):
Oh I have to hear that. I love him. I
was in Cycle Beach Party years ago. What a fun,
fun movie.

Speaker 3 (01:42:30):
Oh my god, wow, Okay, I imagine getting his take
Ono Girls.

Speaker 2 (01:42:34):
Oh yes, oh my god, wow. Yeah, ignore ignore me,
just going to you and him. Oh my god, wow, amazing.
I got to hear one of your most favorite moments
from the movie.

Speaker 3 (01:42:47):
I might butcher the line a little bit, but that's
time to the effect of that's really different. When them
come on your face like that line, I think is
just so foul that I laughing. It's so foul.

Speaker 2 (01:43:03):
The guys are awful, all these men in charge, oh
my god, and the guy that wants to ice her nipples.
It's just like and he what another line that's so foul.
That one guy, it's a different guy than the guy
that just said you're lying. He says something like, I'm erect.
You need to be erect.

Speaker 3 (01:43:19):
It's like, that's right, that's right.

Speaker 4 (01:43:22):
Oh my god.

Speaker 3 (01:43:23):
But I love this this moment to thrust it, thrust it.

Speaker 2 (01:43:27):
Oh yeah, I love all the intense dancing like that
is just okay. We are watching a move V you know,
And and Berkley is doing everything possible. Whether that's bad
or good is up to you. But she is committed.
So she gave her all. She gave She gives her
all in every scene. So is that not performance?

Speaker 4 (01:43:51):
Right?

Speaker 3 (01:43:52):
Yeah? I really really think she should have claimed it.

Speaker 2 (01:43:55):
Yeah, just owned it.

Speaker 3 (01:43:58):
Yeah, it's it's it's the fade on the way of it,
all right, or she like they can't can I can
of can't accept the fact that this thing that they
took so seriously is is funny to people?

Speaker 4 (01:44:09):
Right?

Speaker 3 (01:44:10):
Yeah? Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:44:11):
Well and also with any film, you you make it,
but then once it's done, it's not really for you anymore, right,
It's just for someone else and now it's gonna Yeah,
so you kind of have to be flexible, right, So yeah,
and I just have to shout out that in the
beginning with with Molly when she meets Molly and like,
so where are you from?

Speaker 4 (01:44:29):
Where are you from?

Speaker 2 (01:44:30):
Different places? She throws the fries different places, Molly, get
up and go.

Speaker 3 (01:44:38):
Different places.

Speaker 2 (01:44:39):
My god, b you.

Speaker 4 (01:44:42):
Girl.

Speaker 3 (01:44:42):
I always want to quote that whenever I have fries.

Speaker 2 (01:44:48):
I'm like, Molly, just you don't have your wallet. We
assume Molly just now it's all over the ground, like okay, goodbye,
don't ever help me ever again.

Speaker 3 (01:44:59):
Yeah you you and danger by Molly.

Speaker 2 (01:45:03):
Seriously, Oh, this is so amazing. Thank you so much
for all of your amazing thoughts, your time.

Speaker 3 (01:45:10):
I think these are great camp classics. I'm so happy
to talk about this in this venue. And yeah, I
think uh yeah, if if anyone wants to follow on
social media and Andy might is my Instagram and Rainbow
cult Org is my company. We can find all of
these little designs.

Speaker 2 (01:45:30):
On Oh my gosh. And it sounds like you'll be
selling some of these designs in the future, right.

Speaker 3 (01:45:35):
Actually on the website now, yeah, so our website rainbowclt
dot org. I buy them there.

Speaker 2 (01:45:42):
I love it. I'll put that in the show notes too.
I follow both accounts. Everything you're posting is so much fun. Seriously,
I need to like make a plan because I actually
haven't really I've been to the airport for like a layover,
but I actually really haven't been to Denver yet. So
your next event, I think I'm gonna actually there, sounds good.
I'll bring my tech.

Speaker 3 (01:46:00):
Yes, you are a hord darthling.

Speaker 4 (01:46:04):
We all are. We take the catch, we catch the check,
show them what they want to see.

Speaker 2 (01:46:11):
You are but showing here all the voguing and thrusting.

Speaker 3 (01:46:16):
Oh my.

Speaker 2 (01:46:18):
Thanks everybody for listening to or watching this episode, and
a big thank you to my special wonderful guest, Professor
Andy Might. Such a smart, thoughtful and fun guy. Can't
wait to have him back in the future. Follow him
if you aren't already on Instagram at Andy Might and
at Rainbow cult org, and follow me while you're at

(01:46:38):
it at release date. Rewind to see more footage from
this great conversation and from these great movies and listeners.
I noticed something pretty cool. Some of the movies we
mentioned in this episode also have big anniversaries. This month,
All about Eve is celebrating seventy five years and Jade
from the Showgirl screenwriter also turns thirty, so he had

(01:46:59):
those us back to back Busy Boy in nineteen ninety five.
Tell your friends about this episode and leave a rating
and a review or a thumbs up on whatever you're
using to listen to this because it really does help
indie podcasts like this one. Thanks Draw Media that you
run podcast Network, Kyle Motsinger and Portland Media Center in Maine.

(01:47:20):
And then the parting words of Crystal Connors, Bye Darling

Speaker 3 (01:47:25):
Ye

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