December 25, 2025 • 48 mins
What if the place that hurt you is the place you heal?
That question threads through a raw, hopeful conversation with senior pastor Carlos Ortiz Jr., who opens up about childhood abuse inside the church, a secret life of addiction masked by achievement, and the quiet night in a college dorm when a whisper to “trust” began a long, layered recovery.
Carlos doesn’t sell quick fixes. He shows how small daily choices—one sober day, one honest prayer, one well-timed apology—stack into transformation.
Doubt becomes a companion, not a verdict. Starting in the book of James, Carlos reframes double-mindedness: let faith drive and let doubts ride.
Together we explore practical tools for releasing control—praying “Search my heart,” inviting trusted feedback, and practicing timing as love rather than urgency—and why reflection beats the cultural rush for instant answers.
A simple arborist’s lesson lands hard: stakes support young trees, but left too long, they stunt growth. Pride, boundaries, and survival tactics once kept us safe; now they can suffocate maturity, marriages, and teams.
Carlos urges us to revisit rather than run—returning to painful places with boundaries to find the healing we avoided.
If you’re carrying wounds, wrestling with doubt, or gripping control, this story offers a map: tell the truth, take the next small step, and let humility lead.
Subscribe, share this episode with someone who needs courage today, and leave a review to help more people find their way back to healing.
To download a free chapter of host Sylvia Worsham's bestselling book, In Faith, I Thrive: Finding Joy Through God's Masterplan, purchase any of her products, or book a call with her, visit her website at www.sylviaworsham.com
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_03 (00:02):
If you've ever struggled with fear, doubt, or
worry and wondering what yourtrue purpose was all about, then
this podcast is for you.
In this show, your host, SylviaWarsham, will interview elite
experts and ordinary people thathave created extraordinary
lives.
So here's your host, SylviaWarsham.
SPEAKER_00 (00:29):
Hey light branders, it's Sylvia Warsham.
Welcome to Release Out RevealPurpose.
And today's Carlos Ortiz Jr.
And it is such a pleasure for meto have him on my show because
he's the senior pastor of mychurch.
And when I first met him, I wasblown away, not just because he
was so genuine on stage, but Ilove that about him.
(00:50):
But he was Hispanic like me, andso I could relate and I could
find myself in the stories.
And even better yet, our son,who didn't like going to church,
started wanting to go to churchbecause Carlos was on stage.
And I knew there was a blessingin disguise because it was a
moment in time that I was reallysearching for a church and for a
(01:12):
place.
And we had been there, John hadbeen there, John Burke, and then
he passed on the torch.
And I was so excited becausebeing Hispanic myself, I always
love when Hispanic people riseto the occasion and are given
these major gifts, a blessing.
So he's not just our seniorpastor, he's a friend, and he's
someone that I admire greatlyfor the work he's done around
(01:36):
the world.
So without further ado, thankyou so much for joining us,
Carlos, on Release.
SPEAKER_02 (01:42):
It's it's my pleasure.
Uh and yes, you are a friend ofours, and my wife loves you and
our family and enjoy the time wespend talking together.
And uh just you and your husbandjust love you guys so much.
SPEAKER_00 (01:54):
We do, we adore you.
And there came a moment I waslike, I really want to interview
him on the podcast because hehas such wisdom to share.
There's a story oftransformation that you shared
on stage with us at the churchthat I know needs to be heard on
this stage because there's somany people out there that don't
realize that where they'rebroken is really where the
(02:17):
healing needs to happen.
And I know you have an amazingstory of transformation.
So can you please share with usthat those broken pieces of you
and how you landed as a pastor?
SPEAKER_02 (02:29):
Yeah, so I think uh if I'm gonna share a little
wisdom for those who arelistening today, you know,
especially as we come into theholiday season, where we can
come into a place where I thinksometimes the reason why we in
the culture love the holidays,because it's actually escapism.
Whether it's Halloween orThanksgiving or Christmas, it's
(02:49):
like we get to escape and we getto live in the nostalgia of
maybe what could have been orwhat used to be.
But these are actually reallygood seasons to see things for
what they are.
Um, and and that I think I hadto do that in my work.
And the and the other thing isfor those who are listening, as
I share my story, there's thereare layers to our stories.
(03:10):
And even though many of us canpinpoint one or two actions, one
or two things that really markedus or scarred us or now trigger
us, we actually are very layeredpeople.
And I'll even say this for theguys who are listening, or if
you're a woman listening, happento be married or dating
somebody, guys are much morelayered and complicated than
what we give off or what we'vebeen told for many most of our
(03:32):
lives.
And so for me, as I've walked asa follower of Jesus and a person
trying to walk in healing, I'vehad to give myself permission to
say, 30 years later, and I'mstill working through stuff,
right?
Because I've there are so manylayers and nuances and stories.
So the the larger story is Igrew up as a as a pastor's kid.
My dad was in a denominationknown as the Assemblies of God,
(03:55):
it's a Pentecostal denomination,and uh he had a really tough
job.
He would help churches that werebroken, whether the pastor had
an affair or somebody stolemoney, and there were a lot of
them.
I know the culture tells us thatall the churches are bad.
There weren't a lot of them, butthe ones that were, we went and
my dad would kind of clean upthe church per se.
(04:18):
So when we came to a church,people didn't like us because we
were going to bring change.
So I grew up going to churcheswhere people didn't want us to
be there because they liked thechurch the way it was.
But my dad was such a goodpastor, very involved in the
community, very involved inEnglish and Spanish speaking
churches and all those kinds ofthings.
But with my dad am I doing somuch work, I fell prey to sexual
(04:43):
predators within the church.
So on two different occasions,actually, two different
churches, multiple occasions, Iwas a victim of sexual abuse in
the church.
The same church that my dad wastrying to lead.
Um, and it wasn't a familymember, but it was a friend
close enough that could be a uma wolf in sheep's clothing.
(05:03):
And so that happened until fromthe time I was eight till I was
about twelve.
And at that point, um I justreally was reeling as a young
teenager or as a preteen.
And by the time I was 15, Ialready had a drinking problem.
So I was already an alcoholic, Iwas drinking a lot of alcohol,
(05:24):
doing drugs, and yet I was apretty good student, and so I
got to mask a lot of that.
So I learned pretty early how tomask things.
So I was a straight A student, Iwas a captain of my teams, I was
a good athlete, but I was reallyhurting on the inside.
Um, and then I I got I was umarrested a few times, still I
was president of my seniorclass, and I was going to jail
(05:48):
and I was in trouble, and I wasgoing to the courts, and I was
on probation, went off tocollege, and um basically by my
sophomore year, I was just rockbottom.
Uh I was still getting straightA's, I was an honor student, but
my soul, my heart, every myemotions were just torn apart.
I was sleeping with anythingthat moved, basically, right?
(06:10):
So I was trying to find healingand redemption in the part that
broke me, but it was breaking memore.
Um, and one night stands andbroken relationships, and um, I
had a girlfriend that we had,you know, she lost a baby, which
we were we were thinking abouthaving an abortion, like all
these things that were happeningwhen I was a young adult.
And I was by myself early on mysophomore year of college, and
(06:33):
it was a room by myself, and Ihad a moment that was like this
very ethereal spiritual moment,and nobody was preaching, and
there wasn't music, it was justme by myself and the reality of
facing myself.
You know, Sylvia, those timeswhere we look in the mirror and
we see the reality of who weare, and I saw that, and I just
(06:57):
heard this gentle whisper, like,just trust me.
Well, nobody was around, and Ididn't believe in God at the
time, but it's like just trustme, and my heart knew what it
was saying, like trust God, butI didn't believe in God, um but
my heart wanted to believe inGod.
My mind, the academic in me waslike there's no God, but my
(07:18):
heart wanted there to be a God,and I heard that voice, and I
had just tears going down myface, and I was like, I can't
trust you the way my parentstrust you.
I can't do this.
And this went on for like two orthree hours, and I was by myself
in a room, and then I finallyjust gave in and I said, Okay,
(07:39):
I'm gonna trust you.
And my goal was just to notsleep with anyone.
My first goal was don't sleepwith anybody, don't get high
today.
And before you know it, it waslike, okay, maybe I won't get
high tomorrow either.
And then it was like, maybe Iwon't get high or sleep with
anybody for the first week.
And here we are 30 years later,and I still set those small goal
(08:00):
goals.
Now, not the same goals, right?
Of not getting high or justsleeping with random people, but
it's layered and nuanced.
So I said yes to that, and thenI got really involved with my
local church and had somebodytook me under their wing as a
young adult, and they asked meto be a small group leader.
I'm like, you don't want meleading anybody, like I you
don't want your kids with me.
(08:21):
And I started a small group withlike three kids who were like
the troublemakers in the church,and one of them was my little
brother, and and two of hisfriends, and before you knew it,
our group of three turned intolike a group of 35 teenagers,
and my pastor was like, Youmight have something here.
I'm like, No, no, no, I'm gonnabe a lawyer.
So I was a business undergrad,and I was gonna go to law
(08:42):
school, I was gonna make a tonof money because I grew I was
tired of being poor, the poorpastor's kid.
And by senior year, I met mywife Libby.
I was following Jesus, and mywife looked, or my girlfriend at
the time said, I think you'recalled to be a pastor.
And I said, No manches, no, no,no, no, no.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
(09:02):
This is a lie.
Don't don't talk like that.
And I talked to my pastor, andhe goes, You know, this journey
to pastoring is a private one.
We cannot tell you, we canaffirm it, but we can't call you
to it.
So that's when I began myjourney, and I told God, I'm
gonna do it for a couple years,and then you're gonna change
your mind because I'm gonna bereally bad at this, and I'll
just go back to law school.
(09:23):
And uh here we are, 30 yearslater, still doing it.
And I like how Libby tells you,like, I think you learned to be
a pastor.
You know, so every time westruggle as pastors, because
pastors struggle, like, I don'tknow if I want to do this
anymore.
This is really tough.
Libby will say, I don't know ifwe should do this.
I'm like, girl, it's your fault.
(09:45):
Like you told me I should be apastor.
So we kind of laugh about it,but that's that's kind of my
story of going into ministry,and then there was so much
healing that came afterpastoring about my past and some
of the brokenness of my of mysexual life, of my my my
physical life, and uh and God'sseen me through that.
And so that's kind of thegeneral overall story.
SPEAKER_00 (10:07):
I I love how God uses the people closest to us,
the people we love, the peoplethat can that's why love
transforms, because we want todo it, right?
He oftentimes uses Donnie as amessenger to me, and there's
times I don't want to hear it, Idon't want to hear the truth.
And Donnie's so big on thetruth, and now I'm coming around
(10:30):
to the idea of the truth.
It took me a while.
I'm very stubborn, like you.
Yeah, and um interestingly,enough when you said you wanted
to be a lawyer, my father wantedme to be a lawyer, and I refused
him.
I said, nope, I'm not being alawyer.
I took the upset, I dideverything he wanted me to do,
but I just my heart wasn't init.
SPEAKER_01 (10:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (10:52):
And it took a while for me to find my path now.
It's never linear.
Uh, in your case, it happenedpretty quickly, though, to a
degree in that in college, asyou're wanting to go into this,
God intervenes and says, no, no,no, no, you're gonna follow this
path, and I'm gonna put a girlin your path that's gonna
(11:12):
convince you to probably took agirl, probably took a girl in my
life to kind of convince me.
SPEAKER_02 (11:19):
But yeah, so I agree with you, like things just
aren't linear.
And so this is why really it'simportant for people to
understand their own story.
Because even when we have partsof our story that are linear,
the growth along the way isn'talways linear, right?
So for me, the story is prettyconnected, but the the
underneath the thing, it's notso linear.
(11:41):
There's a lot of things I grewin, there's things I did
backwards.
You know, Libby and I, forexample, we first got married,
and we were everybody was like,you know, these two young
people, they love Jesus, theylove each other.
They they threw us a bigwedding, we had hundreds of
people at our wedding, and thenwe're done being married, and we
were living together, and thefirst three years, I'm just
gonna say it sucked.
(12:03):
They were bad, and I know thatbecause my wife told me they
were bad, right?
She was like, I don't like beingmarried to you, and we had to do
a lot of work just to getstarted in marriage, much less
five or ten years down the road.
And so there's a lot of work,and there's there's that's the
thing, we can't get away fromdoing the work.
(12:23):
You can't just say whether Ibelieve in God or I don't
believe in God.
Okay, that might be the surfacelevel question, but man, there's
so many questions, right, thatare underneath that that both
inform that decision and eitherdeconstruct it or affirm it.
And so for me, I did not believein God, but I had a lot of
questions about God, even thoughI didn't believe in God.
(12:44):
And as I began to really engagethose, um, it really opened up
my heart to a moment where Isaid, okay, God, I believe in
you.
But it still took me years ofstudying.
I went back to grad school, Iwent to SMU in Dallas for grad
school.
And so it's like my journey ofsearching God, even as a pastor,
continues to this day.
(13:05):
You know, I question everything.
I have doubts about a lot ofthings.
But I think it's come to becomea gift and a strength as opposed
to, okay, now I believe in God,so I have to believe in all 100
things or all 50 things theytaught.
No, no, no.
God's wired you a particularway.
Bring that to the table, youknow, with you.
And so that's been a good partof the journey for me, is all
(13:28):
the questions and doubts andfears.
And then we had kids, and Ididn't want a kids, but the kids
have a different level oflearning, you know.
SPEAKER_00 (13:37):
How do you release that doubt though?
Because I mean, you're a pastor,and everybody looks to you to
kind of guide us.
How do we do this?
How did you do it?
How did you just start releasingthose layers of doubt?
SPEAKER_02 (13:50):
So, for those who for the people who are who are
listening who maybe areChristians, uh, a lot of times
when somebody comes to faith,people say, Well, start reading
the book of John or start in theNew Testament.
And so that's great, becausethat's that's really good for
most people.
But for me, and for people thoseare listeners who aren't
followers of Jesus who areexploring, I I started in the
book of James, which is weirdbecause it was just like a
(14:13):
thing, and now I know why.
Because James chapter one talksabout trials and tribulations
and the things you're gonnaface, and to have confidence in
God when you face these things.
But then verse 8 says that adouble-minded person is unstable
in all their ways.
And that was the first verse Iever remembered.
(14:34):
And I think it was God tellingme you can carry your doubts,
but if you carry your doubtsequally to what you know, you're
gonna be unstable in everythingyou do.
So you either need to be drivenby your doubts or driven by
faith.
And it doesn't mean you you onlyhave one or the other, but only
one of them can drive you,Sylvia.
(14:55):
You know, it's like when youhave the reins of something, you
either go right or left.
You can't tell it to you can'ttell a horse to go both.
The horse gets confused and thenit does whatever it wants to do.
So for me, it wasn't releasingdoubt for those who are
listening who have a lot ofdoubts, it was putting doubt in
its rightful place.
Okay, right?
Because that's how I think a lotof times people who are
(15:16):
exploring faith or hey, isChristianity real?
We get this idea that if I havedoubts, I can't be a Christian
or I can't have faith.
You should have doubts.
You should have doubts about alot of things, and some of those
doubts are actually really good.
How things are done, why thingsare structured the way they're
structured, those are reallygood things.
Even as a pastor, you've heardme say, you don't just hear a
(15:36):
pastor speak and believe ahundred percent, not because
it's a lie, but is it incontext?
What does scripture say aboutthat?
And that's why we use a lot ofscripture at our church because
I we are grounded in scripture,it's not just a TED talk for
Christians, right?
So we use a lot of scripture sothat we teach from that, and so
(15:56):
that helps people say, okay, Istill have my doubts or my
concerns, but I'm gonna bedriven by faith.
And as I hit certain blockades,maybe a question will help me in
this.
The other thing is, as anacademic, a true academic is
looking for truth.
A false academic is somebodywho's actually looking for
(16:19):
answers to support what theyalready think is true.
So am I willing to be wrong?
Well, an academic's willing tobe wrong.
A lot of my professors in gradschool were saying one of the
best gifts you'll have as anacademic is saying, I don't
know.
And how many of us hadprofessors or teachers or
(16:40):
parents who seem to have everyanswer, but then eventually they
have to like their defensemechanisms protect them, and
then now they can't be wrong.
Yeah, especially in certaincultures, many cultures around
the world, especially immigrantfamilies, right?
Our parents know what's rightall the time.
They can't be right all thetime, it's impossible.
(17:02):
And so they say they say thingslike, Well, just do it because I
said so.
Well, but why did you say so?
Because mom knows best, orbecause I'm the man of the
house.
And those things actually shutoff a young person from truly
learning the why, understandingwhy this is a good decision.
And so for me, moving forward asa spiritual leader, I don't need
(17:23):
to have all the answers.
I need to know how do I walk inwisdom, and then how do I step
back when I don't have an answerand discern what is happening.
And what we have now in theculture, and we've talked about
this before at our church, andyou and I, is we're looking for
an answer.
So we go online, we go socialmedia, we go chat GPT, because
(17:44):
we want a yes or a no, a left ora right, a black or a white.
And sometimes it's none of that,it's pause, step back, let me
survey what's happening, andthen I can speak into it, right?
And and ask him.
SPEAKER_00 (18:01):
And now I I ask him all the time.
It's like, look, I'm thinkingthis.
What does your word say?
Because one of the things that Iremember John Burke saying was,
How did you know if it's yourown thoughts, this the sermon
piece, or you know, this is Godspeaking to you?
How do you know?
And if it lines up with hisword, then it's the Holy Spirit.
(18:27):
If it does not, that's somethingelse.
And that's where reflectioncomes into play a lot.
Not a lot of people reflect.
Very few, very very few peoplereflect that really like you
said, step back and allow him toinform.
Because we want the answer now.
We want to move forward now.
(18:48):
It's the instant gratificationthat we're in right now.
SPEAKER_02 (18:51):
It's instant gratification, and especially
those of us who are either wireda particular way or we are uh
patriotic to this country, wewant to win.
We want to win, we want to be onthe right side of whatever is
happening, and that's a naturalthing, but sometimes we don't
stop and take a step backbecause in that gap of not
(19:12):
having an answer, that's wheretension is, that's where doubt
is.
And we sometimes don't know howto wrestle with those emotions
or those thoughts.
So we'd rather say, well,instead of sitting on it, let me
go and I go down the rabbit holeof podcast or rabbit hole of
this and that.
And it's like, no, no, no.
What about if you listen to apodcast that makes you think,
(19:35):
that makes you wonder, is nottrying to spoon feed you answers
about certain things, right?
Yeah.
And kind of what we're trying todo today, help people think and
process and feel, and what isGod and what is not God, and
what is spiritual.
Sometimes, as a spiritualleader, I'm not trying to tell
you what to do because then Ihave to keep telling you what to
do.
SPEAKER_01 (19:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (19:55):
We're not a cult, I want to give you a tool for your
toolbox to make betterdecisions.
In wisdom according to God'splan.
SPEAKER_00 (20:02):
So and I've always found that to be true about you.
Because there's been times thatyou've, you and I have had a
conversation, and I'll see youpause and step back.
Like you want to see somethingto me, but you're like, if I
tell her that, knowing howSylvia is, she's just gonna go
ahead and I need her to reflecton that.
Yes.
Like she needs to ask God aboutthat.
(20:23):
Is she right about that?
And I caught that like one timein our conversation.
We were talking about Donnie andabout how he had mentioned
something in therapy, maritalcounseling, of he saw as I was
in the fourth level with it wasmyself and God, and he was out
of the loop.
And I remember that conversationbecause the look on your face
(20:45):
gave it away, and it stayed withme, Carlos, forever.
That look stayed with me, and itit's a way that the Holy Spirit
highlights certain things for mein my mind and says, You need to
look into that.
What do you think that lookmeant to you?
And you're and I'm gonna thinkabout it.
SPEAKER_01 (21:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (21:03):
And just recently that answer came full circle.
SPEAKER_01 (21:07):
Wow.
SPEAKER_00 (21:07):
Like full circle.
And it was right before we wentto Nashville, Tennessee.
It was the the anniversary giftI had given my husband for 12
years.
And I had just talked to Libby,your wife, and I knew my heart
had been transformed.
I knew that I was on the rightpath.
And this is why.
(21:28):
Because he had a major meetingthat week, and I wanted to
apologize to him for dishonoringand disrespecting him in our
marriage.
I'm getting emotional.
But um I was waiting for God'stiming.
I didn't want to rush into it.
I didn't want to pull a Sylvia,you know, like now.
It wasn't about me.
(21:49):
It was about my husband.
It was about our marriage.
It was about God and thecovenant we're in with him,
right?
And God was saying, wait,because he has a big meeting.
And I remember thinking he has abig meeting, and he needs to
have all this focus on thatmeeting because his bosses are
going to be there watching him.
And he he does very good at hisjob.
(22:10):
We both know that, right?
And I pause and I step back andI say it's not the right time.
I'll know God will tell me whenthe right time is.
And it was interesting becausewe were in Nashville and it was
a week later, and I felt peace.
And that's when I apologized.
And I had prayed for weeks, liketwo weeks.
(22:32):
I I avoided certain people.
I only hung out with veryparticular people, and that that
was with women that I knew werevery in love with their
husbands, with their wife, andwith Raker Bishinger, people,
women of faith, not masculineenergy women, which I'm
surrounded by at times, youknow.
I didn't want that.
(22:52):
I wanted the peace and the love.
And when I did, he was verygracious about it.
He didn't get angry because Ihad prayed Ezekiel 36, 26, to
soften his heart so that it wasnot a heart of stone, but a
heart of flesh.
And so that when I spoke to him,he'd be able to receive that
apology.
(23:13):
And he was very like nonchalantabout it.
I've been stressing about it andpraying about it for weeks.
SPEAKER_01 (23:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (23:20):
But I remember, I remember your look that one
time.
And so I know that as a pastor,you you want to guide.
But I also know that you knowcertain people in your in your
community need to think about itand they need to invite God into
the mix.
And only God can transform ourhearts.
He's the only one that can.
SPEAKER_02 (23:40):
He transformed your heart.
Yeah, it's true.
And and yet, you know, as we arecalled to not only just believe
in Jesus, but follow Jesus, bethe word disciple, right?
We're supposed to follow the wayof Christ in our life.
There are times to look atpeople and say, hey, I don't
know if that's a good idea.
But I think a lot of pastors,leaders, parents, those of us
who have an authority or a powerover people for a particular
(24:04):
time, we have to be very carefulhow we wield that, right?
How we wield those words or thatauthority or that decision
making.
Are the people, the people whofollow from out from under us
better for having been under ourcare?
Whether that's in business, apodcast, a pastor, a parent, are
(24:24):
people having are they betterfor having been under our care,
under our power?
And have we used our power toreally help them grow?
No, sometimes we have to use ourpower to protect, right?
So there's times you have tostep in and say, hey, no, no,
no, we're not gonna do that.
Or hey, hey, don't go out intothe street, or hey, that's a bad
call.
But sometimes we forget how muchour nature likes power, so we we
(24:50):
we can convince ourselves we'redoing that to help people, but
eventually we're just trying tocontrol people, right?
And and so for me, this has beenmy journey to pastoring because
my nature is I'm type A, I'm adriver, and so for many years,
people love being on my teamsbecause we would win and we
(25:11):
would do a lot for Jesus, youknow, and and and we would just
take no prisoners, and people onmy teams liked it because we
were gonna beat all the otherteams, the departments of the
church or other churches, andthat's not healthy.
And I was probably 10 years in,and and one of my pastors sat me
down and he said, Yeah, I wasyoung, I was in my late 20s, and
(25:31):
he sat me down, he said, Uh Ilove having you on my team
because I know your team's gonnado well.
But man, you leave a trail oftears behind you.
And I was like, Oh man, I'm sosorry.
Nobody ever told me, andsomebody finally had the guts to
look at me and say, Okay, Ican't just steer him anymore.
(25:53):
I gotta sit him down and say,You cannot keep doing this to
people.
You are hurting people, and sothat's when I had to create new
tools for my toolbox.
Where do I use my energies?
Where don't I use my energies?
Where do you use my power?
Not use my power, my words, notuse my words, and kind of
reshape who I was as a leader,both as a spiritual leader, as a
father.
(26:14):
My th we have five kids, mythree younger kids have
experienced a whole differentdad than my older two.
Course! Of course, yeah, and sobut so I told the church this
last year.
I was doing something with myyounger kids and my older
daughter, who's you know in her20s and she works at local
hospital, Bella, and and she'slike, Well, if that were us, you
(26:36):
would have done this and thisand this.
And this thought came to mymind, Well, you told me I should
get better.
Is that not me getting better?
And she stepped back, she goes,You're right.
You have gotten better, you're abetter dad.
I'm and I had to look in andsay, I'm so sorry I didn't do
this for you.
Yeah.
But you giving me that feedbackat 16 or 17 helped me with your
(26:56):
younger siblings.
So it's all of us doing thistogether, Sylvia.
And I think that's the otherthing that we missed out in
today's culture, is thatespecially if you grew up with a
family dynamic, sometimes thatfamily dynamic could be very
overwhelming, especially inLatino culture or immigrant
culture, where you're like yourfamily is the identity and you
don't get a sense of self.
SPEAKER_03 (27:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (27:17):
But then we fight so hard to have a sense of self
that we push away from familybecause somehow we have to to
get our own identity.
And as we grow mature, we haveto learn to emesh those things,
not enmesh, combine thosethings, not enmesh them.
It's work you've done recently,the last couple of years.
I won't share your story, but Iknow with your family where
(27:38):
you've stepped intoconversations, right?
I've had to do that with myfamily.
It doesn't mean I go back andsay, okay, my dad is my daddy
again, and my dad gets to tellme what to do, but hey, this is
my dad, I'm gonna honor him.
And then there are clearboundaries that we have, but now
we've we've agreed on the set ofrules, and let's move forward as
a family, you know?
Yeah, we just live in a culturewhere people either have one or
(27:59):
the other, and that it'ssomewhere between that sweet
spot.
SPEAKER_00 (28:03):
Well, for me now it's the identity in Christ.
That's been the last couple ofyears for me, and that was a
hard one because I didn't knowscripture at all.
In fact, I laughed when God saidin 2020, Are you gonna use
scripture in your first book?
I'm like, how?
I don't even know the Bible.
Like, how am I gonna do this?
And he's like, You don't worryabout the how.
(28:24):
I'm the one that worries aboutthe how.
You just stay obedient to whatI'm gonna tell you to do.
You just have your notebooks andyou just, you know, I'm gonna
download them and you're gonnawrite.
Um, and no way, I'll I'll I'lldo the figure out it out.
This is the part where I thinkmost people, because we're in a
culture of wanting to control atevery aspect of our
(28:47):
circumstances, this is a partthat's tough for for young
people.
What would you say to them,those that want to just stay in
control and not let go?
SPEAKER_02 (28:59):
I I would say, we've said it several times on this
call.
I would say the scripture tellsus to always search our heart.
So I'll give you a tool.
Um, David in the Psalms wouldsay, Search my heart, O God.
Is there any wicked way in me?
Is there anything that keeps mefrom the way everlasting?
(29:23):
And so that's actually a prayerI pray every day.
But it's a danger, it's adangerous prayer.
Because every time I've prayedit, God has shown me something.
Like I'm thinking I'm having abad day, I'm a victim of
something, you know, so I'mgetting 10, you know, a thousand
emails that are awful, whatever.
And then I say, God, search myheart as any wicked way in me.
(29:43):
And God's like, Oh yeah, youneed to call and apologize to so
and so.
Oh, you need to go.
I'm like, okay.
But I think, Sylvia, to yourpoint, when we want to control,
we have to ask ourselves why.
And and and pinpointing a personor something that triggers us is
actually not the end result.
That's actually the beginning.
(30:04):
Once you identify it's becausemy mom, or because I was abused,
or because of my addiction, nowyou have the real work.
How did I get into thatsituation?
What were the effects of thissituation?
Because control comes fromsomewhere.
That's because I I didn't havecontrol in a particular
situation.
So I say when somebody has that,before you start trying to
(30:26):
change the outward, look inwardand pray.
That I um that is not good, thatis not righteous.
Um, I'll tell you a really coolstory.
It goes with this.
The last few weeks we've hadquite a few people attending, a
lot of new people attending ourchurch.
You probably noticed it'sthere's a lot of new families
(30:49):
and people representing ourcommunity, like a pretty diverse
group of people.
And uh and recently we've had alot of people who are atheists
start attending our church.
We've always had that in ourculture in our church, but every
weekend I'm meeting new peoplewho are atheists.
And I say, Well, tell me whatbrought you to Gateway.
And they're like, Yeah, I justfeel like I'm supposed to just
kind of explore faith.
And I actually kind of likethese services, and I don't even
(31:12):
believe in God.
And so if you're listening todayand you're and you're not a
believer in who Jesus is, okay,let me tell you why this is
happening.
See, in scripture, we are taughtthat we cannot bring somebody to
faith, no matter what kind ofhow good the preacher is, how
good the music is, how awesomethe church is.
Scripture says that you can onlycome to know God unless God's
(31:34):
spirit draws you to him.
So I to I find rest in that as abeliever in Jesus.
It's not my job.
God's at work.
So you hear me say an atheisthaving a feeling about going to
church, because we believebefore somebody believes, they
come along.
That God is already at work inpeople's hearts.
(31:57):
So today, everybody who'slistening, whether you're
believer or not believer, youcan ask God for help.
You can say, Okay, God, there'sI wanted a control, I wanted to
do this.
What's the issue of my heart?
And if you ask very honestly,you will get an answer.
You'll get at that mirror effectof here's why, this pain, this
(32:18):
hurt, this upbringing, whateverit might be.
And I that's the first thing Iwould tell somebody who has
control issues.
The second thing is once you'rewilling to be honest, who's a
safe person in your life thatyou can then process these
things with?
Maybe a safe person at work thatyou really trust.
Hey, how did I show up in thatmeeting today?
And give them room to be honestwith you.
(32:39):
If you're married, your spouse,hey, when we argued last week,
how did I show up and be givethem space to be honest with
you?
Sometimes we do this with ourkids.
Hey, when when we got anargument yesterday, did I do
something that really hurt you?
And giving your kids room togive you.
See what it does is you'reyou're you're testing the waters
(33:00):
of giving over control.
Do it with people you trust.
You don't just don't put onFacebook.
Anybody have feedback for me?
You're gonna get a bunch ofpeople who don't even know you.
So who do you know?
Who do you trust?
Say, hey, I'm working throughthis issue.
Will you help me?
Hey, I say I tell a lot ofpeople this when I when I tell
somebody on your team at work,when we go into this meeting, I
(33:23):
present, I want you to give mehonest feedback.
How was it?
It's a way of testing the watersin a very safe way with people
you trust.
Um, so those are just a coupletools.
Why do I do it?
And then how do I take stepstowards not being a controlling
person in a safe environment?
SPEAKER_00 (33:41):
I love it.
I I do love your tools becausethey're very relatable.
Number one, number two, thereare a lot of people that don't
even know where to start or howto take that first initial step.
And we both know that thatinitial step, especially like
for you in that college room.
I I still go back to that storyof you were in there by
(34:07):
yourself, and you could havechosen to stay exactly where you
were, but you heard somethinginside of you, like you said
earlier.
God pulls you towards him.
I felt that pull.
I had turned away from God for10 years in my first marriage.
And as soon as he asked for adivorce that first week, I
actually was sitting down,writing these things down
(34:30):
because God was downloadingsomething to me this week of
your identity is in me, Sylvia.
This is where your identity isat.
And I want you to go back andlook at all the significant
emotional events you and I'veshared, and you'll see how I've
been there for you and how theresults I can give you, and only
(34:52):
I can give you those results,right?
So he pulls you towards you.
The way it happened with me is Ifelt the need to get close to
God again, and it came out ofnowhere, and you would have
thought it didn't really comeout of nowhere.
I was in a dark, dark chapter.
I was coming out of divorce,into like stepping into a space
(35:15):
that was terrifying.
I had a little boy and I didn'tknow what I was doing.
And the pull was get to know meagain, get to talk to me, tell
me, share with me.
And I started to just write.
I just started my journal, andthe more I did it, the more I
felt at peace.
Right.
And I go back to your story ofit's just it takes that action
(35:39):
step of listening to that voiceand doing what it's asking you
to do.
It's simple, but my God, to doit.
You're like, ah, but I can dothis.
SPEAKER_02 (35:54):
Yeah, it's one of the things I've been I've been
noticing lately.
There is a desire in people anda desperation to know themselves
and understand who God is.
To the point where Sylvia,there's times where I see a lot
of new people who are exploringfaith or new to faith, or have
deconstructed and are reallytrying to get to a healthy place
(36:14):
of understanding of growing inGod again.
That in that desperation, inthat humility, humility is like
a fragrance that draws God.
Pride actually repels God.
So when you think you have itall together and you think you
have put it, you know, you'vefigured out life, that actually
(36:36):
repels who God is.
It's it's it's it's in theinvitation towards towards uh
brokenness and humility thatGod's like, yeah, this is this
is where I am made for arelationship.
You know, I am made to be, youknow, God your father, the one
who created you, the one whoformed you and shaped you.
And I think a lot of people needto be reminded of that.
(36:57):
That man, that's why I used tostay humble.
I I get asked all the time, howdo you why do you how do you
tell all the stories you tell onSunday mornings?
Like my wife would kill me if Ishared some of those stories.
But we just have an agreementthat these aren't stories to
entertain, these are stories tomodel for people.
It's okay to have questions,it's okay to have doubts, it's
(37:17):
okay to screw it up, it's okayto like have a day, you just
mess up.
Like, but my mess ups at 48 arenot the same mess ups when I was
28.
SPEAKER_00 (37:27):
No, no, no.
SPEAKER_02 (37:29):
A lot of us, a lot of us have a rhythm that we're
we're 28, 38, 48, and we'remaking the same mistakes we made
10, 15 years ago.
A lot of that is because wehaven't had those honest moments
in the mirror and being willingto say I need change.
SPEAKER_00 (37:48):
Oh my goodness, yes.
The humiliate these, I toldDonnie said, How how do you
think the enemy is coming intowards you?
And I said, My anxiety and mypride.
My pride was tough to get past.
I just discovered that was thewhole reason of for the exercise
(38:11):
that God had me on since Marchof this year, which was I talked
to Haley Carter about it becauseas I was getting commissioned to
be part of the church, it wasone of the questions.
And she said, How are you doingwith that?
I was like, It's reallyhumbling.
It's very humbling.
But I was because he he said,You need to remove the sin from
your tent, Sylvia.
(38:32):
And what is, and to me thatmeant I had to sit back and
reflect, what is my sin?
What have I done?
How have I hurt others?
And then really like take a goodlook at, and I made a list of
people, and even the my bully inpickleball, the the person that
I like could not see, we we werepart of the same groups and
(38:54):
stuff.
I actually approached her andand apologized.
I had offended her.
I didn't know what I had done toher, but she and I had this
major rift, and and I called herup and before she left in June
to go to her summer place, Isaid, Can I just invite you for
a smoothie?
I I just want to talk to you.
And we sat down and I said, Idon't know what I did, but
(39:17):
whatever it was, I'm very sorry.
And I re I repented, you know,to and it just opened up a
conversation.
It was very healing, but it's itwas my path to exercise that
humility because I knew my pridewas standing in my way.
And I remember what I told youabout that full circle moment,
it started with that look onyour face.
(39:38):
Yeah, because I could tell thatyou knew that my pride was a big
part of my block.
But I had to realize that.
I had to sit back and reflect itin what, and it was not an easy
thing.
I to sit in front of my buildingwas like.
(40:00):
I'm the girl and an apologize toher.
Why her?
You know?
And that is like because she'son your list.
You asked me for help.
I'm sharing with you what thisis the truth.
You wanted the truth.
Here it is.
So go do it.
Because it's gonna prepare youfor your husband.
The biggest one you're gonnahave to like do.
SPEAKER_02 (40:20):
Well, it I I will say because I know we're coming
to the end of our time, but Iwant to share something with
you.
A few years ago, um, we moved toAustin right before the
pandemic.
We bought our house six weeksbefore the pandemic, and I'm so
glad we did because afterwardswe wouldn't be able to afford it
because all the houses went soup and so high in price.
But we uh it was a newer houseum in a in a good neighborhood,
(40:41):
and so it had new um neweverything.
New everything.
So it had new trees.
And uh if you've lived in Austinlast few years, you know we've
had a few freezes during thewinters, and and so I I left,
you know, they had the stakesand to keep them up with the
winds and the ice and all thatkind of stuff.
And after the second freeze, Ikind of noticed that maybe our
(41:03):
trees were gonna die uh from thefreezes and and and whatnot.
So we brought on an arborist tolook at our trees and kind of
assess what's going on.
They're only a few years old, weneed to get new trees.
And he said, you know, theproblem wasn't the winter storm
for you.
That was for a lot of people.
The problem wasn't um the winds,the problem is that you left the
(41:27):
stakes in the ground after twoyears, you didn't allow the tree
to grow to then resist the windand resist the ice.
And I was like, Well, wait, whydo they put the stakes to begin
with?
And he says, Well, you have tohave the stakes because when
they're infants and when they'rebabies, baby trees, you want you
need it needs help and thesupport.
But eventually the thing thathelps you support and survive
(41:50):
becomes the detriment tomaturity.
Well, how many of us listeningtoday?
Our pride helped us survivetrauma, our our drive helped us
survive you know, poverty.
Our the way we're wired helpedus survive being first, you
know, an immigrant here orfacing sexual abuse like me.
(42:10):
So the thing that protected us,once we're no longer in that
zone, can be the very attitudethat actually suffocates us from
trying to get healthy.
Man, that's a really toughlesson for us.
Um, because with my parents, myparents are great people, but
we're all in water.
And I remember my wife aboutfive years ago said, you put up
(42:33):
a boundary with your parentswhen you were young, but that
boundary has turned into abarrier.
So now what was healthy hasbecome unhealthy, and you're
keeping your family out.
And I wonder how many peoplelisten today you've survived,
you've built a business, you'vebuilt a family, whatever you've
done, education, you're adoctor, you're a lawyer.
(42:56):
And the thing that got you theremight be the very thing keeping
you from actually living thelife you actually want, whether
in Christ or in your business.
And we have to have thosemoments we've said several times
today, where we look in themirror and we're honest with
ourselves, and we walk inhumility and say, okay, that
thing helped me for the first 20years, 30 years, 40 years.
It's actually going to kill mymarriage.
(43:17):
It's going to kill my law firm,it's going to kill my practice.
And we have to have thosemoments of honesty.
SPEAKER_00 (43:23):
So I love that.
I love that because it's veryreal.
This is a really raw and realconversation.
It's not sugar coated.
We've been very honest.
It's a humbling experience tolook in the mirror and to say,
okay, God, share with me what Iremove whatever the wicked ways,
(43:44):
you know, the verse that youwere talking about from David.
Yeah.
So any last words ofencouragement for those
listening?
SPEAKER_02 (43:53):
Yeah, I think something that that we um we've
kind of we've kind of hit onalready, and then you and I were
talking before we startedrecording, and that is we live
in a culture that gives uspermission and affirms us
running from particularsituations.
And the truth is the samechurch, the same place, the
(44:18):
church that hurt me as a kid,the same place I found healing
in as an adult.
And it's the same place I nowhelp heal others.
And so I wonder how many of us,as we look in the mirror, are
honest with ourselves, may haveto revisit some things.
Not may, we all have to revisitcertain things so that we can
(44:38):
find the empowerment to movethrough those things.
Because if we don't, we willlose a huge opportunity, and
then we end up building a lifeavoiding things instead of the
life in the very place God mayhave wanted you to be.
And so as you look in themirror, as you're honest with
yourself, always be willing torevisit.
And remember, that person mayhave hurt you, that bully may
(45:02):
have bullied you.
It doesn't mean you have to bebest friends, it doesn't mean
you have to do life together,but it does mean sitting in it,
working through it, and allowingyourself to find some healing in
the very place that hurt you isis kind of the way God works.
And it's hard to it's hard toacknowledge that, but you can't
(45:23):
give into the culture that says,well, just run, start a new
life, do your own thing.
You can do it, but it's so muchsweeter and so much better and
more healthy to go back to thatspot, find healing, and move
from that point on.
It helps remove some of thosedarts and those pain points.
So um, as we're in this holidayseason of seeing family, seeing
(45:45):
friends, we some of us might besitting in that right now.
You might be in the house withthe very people who hurt you.
Ask yourself the question firstbefore you accuse anybody else.
And once you have that answer,have a different viewpoint of
those same people.
I see my parents verydifferently.
They they did the best theycould with what they had.
(46:07):
And I found a lot of forgivenessin that and healing, and I want
that for others as well.
SPEAKER_00 (46:12):
And what a gift to give to yourself, in all
honesty.
In this season of giving andgifts, might as well give
yourself that gift of healing bydoing what just what you said,
God loves to do, because it isimportant for us to be able to
move through life.
We don't want to get to the endof our life and have those
regrets on our deathbed.
(46:33):
Of like, I wish I had talked tothem.
I you have the opportunity now,especially if your parents are
alive and those people arealive.
Those conversations were thebest I've had in the last couple
of months, I'll tell you.
And the last couple of years ofmy father's life, they're the
best because I was able to tellthem exactly how I felt.
(46:55):
And like you, I now know and Isee, I started to see them in
the light through God's eyes,which is it changes everything.
It transforms the way you viewpeople when you can see them in
that light, in that beautiful,honest light.
And all of my listeners havereleased that review of purpose
(47:16):
know how I usually sign off onthe on the show is to always to
remember Matthew 5.14 that saysto be the light.
Be that beautiful light that youwere meant to be.
Uh, look at God, look what abeautiful light he became.
It didn't matter where hestarted, look at where he's at
today.
You know, use that light for thebetterment of humanity.
(47:38):
This is what how we were allgifted and meant to be on this
earth.
And I just thank God that I hadthe privilege and the honor of
interviewing my own pastor.
My heart was racing the entiretime, but I got through it.
It was so awesome to have you onthe show.
Thank you for coming uh andbeing here with us and blessing
(48:00):
us.
That this show will be released,interestingly enough, on
December 25th of this year.
So Merry Christmas to all.
SPEAKER_01 (48:08):
Please marry that.
SPEAKER_00 (48:10):
Bye-bye.
SPEAKER_03 (48:14):
So that's it for today's episode of Release
Doubt, Reveal Purpose.
Head on over to iTunes orwherever you listen and
subscribe to the show.
One lucky listener every singleweek who posts a review on
iTunes will win a chance theGrand Prize drawing to win a
$25,000 private VIP day withSylvia Worsham herself.
(48:37):
Be sure to head on over torelease out reveal
purposepodcast.com and pick up afree copy of Sylvia's gift and
join us on the next episode.
If you've ever struggled with fear, doubt, or
worry and wondering what yourtrue purpose was all about, then
this podcast is for you.
In this show, your host, SylviaWarsham, will interview elite
experts and ordinary people thathave created extraordinary
lives.
So here's your host, SylviaWarsham.
SPEAKER_00 (00:29):
Hey light branders, it's Sylvia Warsham.
Welcome to Release Out RevealPurpose.
And today's Carlos Ortiz Jr.
And it is such a pleasure for meto have him on my show because
he's the senior pastor of mychurch.
And when I first met him, I wasblown away, not just because he
was so genuine on stage, but Ilove that about him.
(00:50):
But he was Hispanic like me, andso I could relate and I could
find myself in the stories.
And even better yet, our son,who didn't like going to church,
started wanting to go to churchbecause Carlos was on stage.
And I knew there was a blessingin disguise because it was a
moment in time that I was reallysearching for a church and for a
(01:12):
place.
And we had been there, John hadbeen there, John Burke, and then
he passed on the torch.
And I was so excited becausebeing Hispanic myself, I always
love when Hispanic people riseto the occasion and are given
these major gifts, a blessing.
So he's not just our seniorpastor, he's a friend, and he's
someone that I admire greatlyfor the work he's done around
(01:36):
the world.
So without further ado, thankyou so much for joining us,
Carlos, on Release.
SPEAKER_02 (01:42):
It's it's my pleasure.
Uh and yes, you are a friend ofours, and my wife loves you and
our family and enjoy the time wespend talking together.
And uh just you and your husbandjust love you guys so much.
SPEAKER_00 (01:54):
We do, we adore you.
And there came a moment I waslike, I really want to interview
him on the podcast because hehas such wisdom to share.
There's a story oftransformation that you shared
on stage with us at the churchthat I know needs to be heard on
this stage because there's somany people out there that don't
realize that where they'rebroken is really where the
(02:17):
healing needs to happen.
And I know you have an amazingstory of transformation.
So can you please share with usthat those broken pieces of you
and how you landed as a pastor?
SPEAKER_02 (02:29):
Yeah, so I think uh if I'm gonna share a little
wisdom for those who arelistening today, you know,
especially as we come into theholiday season, where we can
come into a place where I thinksometimes the reason why we in
the culture love the holidays,because it's actually escapism.
Whether it's Halloween orThanksgiving or Christmas, it's
(02:49):
like we get to escape and we getto live in the nostalgia of
maybe what could have been orwhat used to be.
But these are actually reallygood seasons to see things for
what they are.
Um, and and that I think I hadto do that in my work.
And the and the other thing isfor those who are listening, as
I share my story, there's thereare layers to our stories.
(03:10):
And even though many of us canpinpoint one or two actions, one
or two things that really markedus or scarred us or now trigger
us, we actually are very layeredpeople.
And I'll even say this for theguys who are listening, or if
you're a woman listening, happento be married or dating
somebody, guys are much morelayered and complicated than
what we give off or what we'vebeen told for many most of our
(03:32):
lives.
And so for me, as I've walked asa follower of Jesus and a person
trying to walk in healing, I'vehad to give myself permission to
say, 30 years later, and I'mstill working through stuff,
right?
Because I've there are so manylayers and nuances and stories.
So the the larger story is Igrew up as a as a pastor's kid.
My dad was in a denominationknown as the Assemblies of God,
(03:55):
it's a Pentecostal denomination,and uh he had a really tough
job.
He would help churches that werebroken, whether the pastor had
an affair or somebody stolemoney, and there were a lot of
them.
I know the culture tells us thatall the churches are bad.
There weren't a lot of them, butthe ones that were, we went and
my dad would kind of clean upthe church per se.
(04:18):
So when we came to a church,people didn't like us because we
were going to bring change.
So I grew up going to churcheswhere people didn't want us to
be there because they liked thechurch the way it was.
But my dad was such a goodpastor, very involved in the
community, very involved inEnglish and Spanish speaking
churches and all those kinds ofthings.
But with my dad am I doing somuch work, I fell prey to sexual
(04:43):
predators within the church.
So on two different occasions,actually, two different
churches, multiple occasions, Iwas a victim of sexual abuse in
the church.
The same church that my dad wastrying to lead.
Um, and it wasn't a familymember, but it was a friend
close enough that could be a uma wolf in sheep's clothing.
(05:03):
And so that happened until fromthe time I was eight till I was
about twelve.
And at that point, um I justreally was reeling as a young
teenager or as a preteen.
And by the time I was 15, Ialready had a drinking problem.
So I was already an alcoholic, Iwas drinking a lot of alcohol,
(05:24):
doing drugs, and yet I was apretty good student, and so I
got to mask a lot of that.
So I learned pretty early how tomask things.
So I was a straight A student, Iwas a captain of my teams, I was
a good athlete, but I was reallyhurting on the inside.
Um, and then I I got I was umarrested a few times, still I
was president of my seniorclass, and I was going to jail
(05:48):
and I was in trouble, and I wasgoing to the courts, and I was
on probation, went off tocollege, and um basically by my
sophomore year, I was just rockbottom.
Uh I was still getting straightA's, I was an honor student, but
my soul, my heart, every myemotions were just torn apart.
I was sleeping with anythingthat moved, basically, right?
(06:10):
So I was trying to find healingand redemption in the part that
broke me, but it was breaking memore.
Um, and one night stands andbroken relationships, and um, I
had a girlfriend that we had,you know, she lost a baby, which
we were we were thinking abouthaving an abortion, like all
these things that were happeningwhen I was a young adult.
And I was by myself early on mysophomore year of college, and
(06:33):
it was a room by myself, and Ihad a moment that was like this
very ethereal spiritual moment,and nobody was preaching, and
there wasn't music, it was justme by myself and the reality of
facing myself.
You know, Sylvia, those timeswhere we look in the mirror and
we see the reality of who weare, and I saw that, and I just
(06:57):
heard this gentle whisper, like,just trust me.
Well, nobody was around, and Ididn't believe in God at the
time, but it's like just trustme, and my heart knew what it
was saying, like trust God, butI didn't believe in God, um but
my heart wanted to believe inGod.
My mind, the academic in me waslike there's no God, but my
(07:18):
heart wanted there to be a God,and I heard that voice, and I
had just tears going down myface, and I was like, I can't
trust you the way my parentstrust you.
I can't do this.
And this went on for like two orthree hours, and I was by myself
in a room, and then I finallyjust gave in and I said, Okay,
(07:39):
I'm gonna trust you.
And my goal was just to notsleep with anyone.
My first goal was don't sleepwith anybody, don't get high
today.
And before you know it, it waslike, okay, maybe I won't get
high tomorrow either.
And then it was like, maybe Iwon't get high or sleep with
anybody for the first week.
And here we are 30 years later,and I still set those small goal
(08:00):
goals.
Now, not the same goals, right?
Of not getting high or justsleeping with random people, but
it's layered and nuanced.
So I said yes to that, and thenI got really involved with my
local church and had somebodytook me under their wing as a
young adult, and they asked meto be a small group leader.
I'm like, you don't want meleading anybody, like I you
don't want your kids with me.
(08:21):
And I started a small group withlike three kids who were like
the troublemakers in the church,and one of them was my little
brother, and and two of hisfriends, and before you knew it,
our group of three turned intolike a group of 35 teenagers,
and my pastor was like, Youmight have something here.
I'm like, No, no, no, I'm gonnabe a lawyer.
So I was a business undergrad,and I was gonna go to law
(08:42):
school, I was gonna make a tonof money because I grew I was
tired of being poor, the poorpastor's kid.
And by senior year, I met mywife Libby.
I was following Jesus, and mywife looked, or my girlfriend at
the time said, I think you'recalled to be a pastor.
And I said, No manches, no, no,no, no, no.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
(09:02):
This is a lie.
Don't don't talk like that.
And I talked to my pastor, andhe goes, You know, this journey
to pastoring is a private one.
We cannot tell you, we canaffirm it, but we can't call you
to it.
So that's when I began myjourney, and I told God, I'm
gonna do it for a couple years,and then you're gonna change
your mind because I'm gonna bereally bad at this, and I'll
just go back to law school.
(09:23):
And uh here we are, 30 yearslater, still doing it.
And I like how Libby tells you,like, I think you learned to be
a pastor.
You know, so every time westruggle as pastors, because
pastors struggle, like, I don'tknow if I want to do this
anymore.
This is really tough.
Libby will say, I don't know ifwe should do this.
I'm like, girl, it's your fault.
(09:45):
Like you told me I should be apastor.
So we kind of laugh about it,but that's that's kind of my
story of going into ministry,and then there was so much
healing that came afterpastoring about my past and some
of the brokenness of my of mysexual life, of my my my
physical life, and uh and God'sseen me through that.
And so that's kind of thegeneral overall story.
SPEAKER_00 (10:07):
I I love how God uses the people closest to us,
the people we love, the peoplethat can that's why love
transforms, because we want todo it, right?
He oftentimes uses Donnie as amessenger to me, and there's
times I don't want to hear it, Idon't want to hear the truth.
And Donnie's so big on thetruth, and now I'm coming around
(10:30):
to the idea of the truth.
It took me a while.
I'm very stubborn, like you.
Yeah, and um interestingly,enough when you said you wanted
to be a lawyer, my father wantedme to be a lawyer, and I refused
him.
I said, nope, I'm not being alawyer.
I took the upset, I dideverything he wanted me to do,
but I just my heart wasn't init.
SPEAKER_01 (10:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (10:52):
And it took a while for me to find my path now.
It's never linear.
Uh, in your case, it happenedpretty quickly, though, to a
degree in that in college, asyou're wanting to go into this,
God intervenes and says, no, no,no, no, you're gonna follow this
path, and I'm gonna put a girlin your path that's gonna
(11:12):
convince you to probably took agirl, probably took a girl in my
life to kind of convince me.
SPEAKER_02 (11:19):
But yeah, so I agree with you, like things just
aren't linear.
And so this is why really it'simportant for people to
understand their own story.
Because even when we have partsof our story that are linear,
the growth along the way isn'talways linear, right?
So for me, the story is prettyconnected, but the the
underneath the thing, it's notso linear.
(11:41):
There's a lot of things I grewin, there's things I did
backwards.
You know, Libby and I, forexample, we first got married,
and we were everybody was like,you know, these two young
people, they love Jesus, theylove each other.
They they threw us a bigwedding, we had hundreds of
people at our wedding, and thenwe're done being married, and we
were living together, and thefirst three years, I'm just
gonna say it sucked.
(12:03):
They were bad, and I know thatbecause my wife told me they
were bad, right?
She was like, I don't like beingmarried to you, and we had to do
a lot of work just to getstarted in marriage, much less
five or ten years down the road.
And so there's a lot of work,and there's there's that's the
thing, we can't get away fromdoing the work.
(12:23):
You can't just say whether Ibelieve in God or I don't
believe in God.
Okay, that might be the surfacelevel question, but man, there's
so many questions, right, thatare underneath that that both
inform that decision and eitherdeconstruct it or affirm it.
And so for me, I did not believein God, but I had a lot of
questions about God, even thoughI didn't believe in God.
(12:44):
And as I began to really engagethose, um, it really opened up
my heart to a moment where Isaid, okay, God, I believe in
you.
But it still took me years ofstudying.
I went back to grad school, Iwent to SMU in Dallas for grad
school.
And so it's like my journey ofsearching God, even as a pastor,
continues to this day.
(13:05):
You know, I question everything.
I have doubts about a lot ofthings.
But I think it's come to becomea gift and a strength as opposed
to, okay, now I believe in God,so I have to believe in all 100
things or all 50 things theytaught.
No, no, no.
God's wired you a particularway.
Bring that to the table, youknow, with you.
And so that's been a good partof the journey for me, is all
(13:28):
the questions and doubts andfears.
And then we had kids, and Ididn't want a kids, but the kids
have a different level oflearning, you know.
SPEAKER_00 (13:37):
How do you release that doubt though?
Because I mean, you're a pastor,and everybody looks to you to
kind of guide us.
How do we do this?
How did you do it?
How did you just start releasingthose layers of doubt?
SPEAKER_02 (13:50):
So, for those who for the people who are who are
listening who maybe areChristians, uh, a lot of times
when somebody comes to faith,people say, Well, start reading
the book of John or start in theNew Testament.
And so that's great, becausethat's that's really good for
most people.
But for me, and for people thoseare listeners who aren't
followers of Jesus who areexploring, I I started in the
book of James, which is weirdbecause it was just like a
(14:13):
thing, and now I know why.
Because James chapter one talksabout trials and tribulations
and the things you're gonnaface, and to have confidence in
God when you face these things.
But then verse 8 says that adouble-minded person is unstable
in all their ways.
And that was the first verse Iever remembered.
(14:34):
And I think it was God tellingme you can carry your doubts,
but if you carry your doubtsequally to what you know, you're
gonna be unstable in everythingyou do.
So you either need to be drivenby your doubts or driven by
faith.
And it doesn't mean you you onlyhave one or the other, but only
one of them can drive you,Sylvia.
(14:55):
You know, it's like when youhave the reins of something, you
either go right or left.
You can't tell it to you can'ttell a horse to go both.
The horse gets confused and thenit does whatever it wants to do.
So for me, it wasn't releasingdoubt for those who are
listening who have a lot ofdoubts, it was putting doubt in
its rightful place.
Okay, right?
Because that's how I think a lotof times people who are
(15:16):
exploring faith or hey, isChristianity real?
We get this idea that if I havedoubts, I can't be a Christian
or I can't have faith.
You should have doubts.
You should have doubts about alot of things, and some of those
doubts are actually really good.
How things are done, why thingsare structured the way they're
structured, those are reallygood things.
Even as a pastor, you've heardme say, you don't just hear a
(15:36):
pastor speak and believe ahundred percent, not because
it's a lie, but is it incontext?
What does scripture say aboutthat?
And that's why we use a lot ofscripture at our church because
I we are grounded in scripture,it's not just a TED talk for
Christians, right?
So we use a lot of scripture sothat we teach from that, and so
(15:56):
that helps people say, okay, Istill have my doubts or my
concerns, but I'm gonna bedriven by faith.
And as I hit certain blockades,maybe a question will help me in
this.
The other thing is, as anacademic, a true academic is
looking for truth.
A false academic is somebodywho's actually looking for
(16:19):
answers to support what theyalready think is true.
So am I willing to be wrong?
Well, an academic's willing tobe wrong.
A lot of my professors in gradschool were saying one of the
best gifts you'll have as anacademic is saying, I don't
know.
And how many of us hadprofessors or teachers or
(16:40):
parents who seem to have everyanswer, but then eventually they
have to like their defensemechanisms protect them, and
then now they can't be wrong.
Yeah, especially in certaincultures, many cultures around
the world, especially immigrantfamilies, right?
Our parents know what's rightall the time.
They can't be right all thetime, it's impossible.
(17:02):
And so they say they say thingslike, Well, just do it because I
said so.
Well, but why did you say so?
Because mom knows best, orbecause I'm the man of the
house.
And those things actually shutoff a young person from truly
learning the why, understandingwhy this is a good decision.
And so for me, moving forward asa spiritual leader, I don't need
(17:23):
to have all the answers.
I need to know how do I walk inwisdom, and then how do I step
back when I don't have an answerand discern what is happening.
And what we have now in theculture, and we've talked about
this before at our church, andyou and I, is we're looking for
an answer.
So we go online, we go socialmedia, we go chat GPT, because
(17:44):
we want a yes or a no, a left ora right, a black or a white.
And sometimes it's none of that,it's pause, step back, let me
survey what's happening, andthen I can speak into it, right?
And and ask him.
SPEAKER_00 (18:01):
And now I I ask him all the time.
It's like, look, I'm thinkingthis.
What does your word say?
Because one of the things that Iremember John Burke saying was,
How did you know if it's yourown thoughts, this the sermon
piece, or you know, this is Godspeaking to you?
How do you know?
And if it lines up with hisword, then it's the Holy Spirit.
(18:27):
If it does not, that's somethingelse.
And that's where reflectioncomes into play a lot.
Not a lot of people reflect.
Very few, very very few peoplereflect that really like you
said, step back and allow him toinform.
Because we want the answer now.
We want to move forward now.
(18:48):
It's the instant gratificationthat we're in right now.
SPEAKER_02 (18:51):
It's instant gratification, and especially
those of us who are either wireda particular way or we are uh
patriotic to this country, wewant to win.
We want to win, we want to be onthe right side of whatever is
happening, and that's a naturalthing, but sometimes we don't
stop and take a step backbecause in that gap of not
(19:12):
having an answer, that's wheretension is, that's where doubt
is.
And we sometimes don't know howto wrestle with those emotions
or those thoughts.
So we'd rather say, well,instead of sitting on it, let me
go and I go down the rabbit holeof podcast or rabbit hole of
this and that.
And it's like, no, no, no.
What about if you listen to apodcast that makes you think,
(19:35):
that makes you wonder, is nottrying to spoon feed you answers
about certain things, right?
Yeah.
And kind of what we're trying todo today, help people think and
process and feel, and what isGod and what is not God, and
what is spiritual.
Sometimes, as a spiritualleader, I'm not trying to tell
you what to do because then Ihave to keep telling you what to
do.
SPEAKER_01 (19:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (19:55):
We're not a cult, I want to give you a tool for your
toolbox to make betterdecisions.
In wisdom according to God'splan.
SPEAKER_00 (20:02):
So and I've always found that to be true about you.
Because there's been times thatyou've, you and I have had a
conversation, and I'll see youpause and step back.
Like you want to see somethingto me, but you're like, if I
tell her that, knowing howSylvia is, she's just gonna go
ahead and I need her to reflecton that.
Yes.
Like she needs to ask God aboutthat.
(20:23):
Is she right about that?
And I caught that like one timein our conversation.
We were talking about Donnie andabout how he had mentioned
something in therapy, maritalcounseling, of he saw as I was
in the fourth level with it wasmyself and God, and he was out
of the loop.
And I remember that conversationbecause the look on your face
(20:45):
gave it away, and it stayed withme, Carlos, forever.
That look stayed with me, and itit's a way that the Holy Spirit
highlights certain things for mein my mind and says, You need to
look into that.
What do you think that lookmeant to you?
And you're and I'm gonna thinkabout it.
SPEAKER_01 (21:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (21:03):
And just recently that answer came full circle.
SPEAKER_01 (21:07):
Wow.
SPEAKER_00 (21:07):
Like full circle.
And it was right before we wentto Nashville, Tennessee.
It was the the anniversary giftI had given my husband for 12
years.
And I had just talked to Libby,your wife, and I knew my heart
had been transformed.
I knew that I was on the rightpath.
And this is why.
(21:28):
Because he had a major meetingthat week, and I wanted to
apologize to him for dishonoringand disrespecting him in our
marriage.
I'm getting emotional.
But um I was waiting for God'stiming.
I didn't want to rush into it.
I didn't want to pull a Sylvia,you know, like now.
It wasn't about me.
(21:49):
It was about my husband.
It was about our marriage.
It was about God and thecovenant we're in with him,
right?
And God was saying, wait,because he has a big meeting.
And I remember thinking he has abig meeting, and he needs to
have all this focus on thatmeeting because his bosses are
going to be there watching him.
And he he does very good at hisjob.
(22:10):
We both know that, right?
And I pause and I step back andI say it's not the right time.
I'll know God will tell me whenthe right time is.
And it was interesting becausewe were in Nashville and it was
a week later, and I felt peace.
And that's when I apologized.
And I had prayed for weeks, liketwo weeks.
(22:32):
I I avoided certain people.
I only hung out with veryparticular people, and that that
was with women that I knew werevery in love with their
husbands, with their wife, andwith Raker Bishinger, people,
women of faith, not masculineenergy women, which I'm
surrounded by at times, youknow.
I didn't want that.
(22:52):
I wanted the peace and the love.
And when I did, he was verygracious about it.
He didn't get angry because Ihad prayed Ezekiel 36, 26, to
soften his heart so that it wasnot a heart of stone, but a
heart of flesh.
And so that when I spoke to him,he'd be able to receive that
apology.
(23:13):
And he was very like nonchalantabout it.
I've been stressing about it andpraying about it for weeks.
SPEAKER_01 (23:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (23:20):
But I remember, I remember your look that one
time.
And so I know that as a pastor,you you want to guide.
But I also know that you knowcertain people in your in your
community need to think about itand they need to invite God into
the mix.
And only God can transform ourhearts.
He's the only one that can.
SPEAKER_02 (23:40):
He transformed your heart.
Yeah, it's true.
And and yet, you know, as we arecalled to not only just believe
in Jesus, but follow Jesus, bethe word disciple, right?
We're supposed to follow the wayof Christ in our life.
There are times to look atpeople and say, hey, I don't
know if that's a good idea.
But I think a lot of pastors,leaders, parents, those of us
who have an authority or a powerover people for a particular
(24:04):
time, we have to be very carefulhow we wield that, right?
How we wield those words or thatauthority or that decision
making.
Are the people, the people whofollow from out from under us
better for having been under ourcare?
Whether that's in business, apodcast, a pastor, a parent, are
(24:24):
people having are they betterfor having been under our care,
under our power?
And have we used our power toreally help them grow?
No, sometimes we have to use ourpower to protect, right?
So there's times you have tostep in and say, hey, no, no,
no, we're not gonna do that.
Or hey, hey, don't go out intothe street, or hey, that's a bad
call.
But sometimes we forget how muchour nature likes power, so we we
(24:50):
we can convince ourselves we'redoing that to help people, but
eventually we're just trying tocontrol people, right?
And and so for me, this has beenmy journey to pastoring because
my nature is I'm type A, I'm adriver, and so for many years,
people love being on my teamsbecause we would win and we
(25:11):
would do a lot for Jesus, youknow, and and and we would just
take no prisoners, and people onmy teams liked it because we
were gonna beat all the otherteams, the departments of the
church or other churches, andthat's not healthy.
And I was probably 10 years in,and and one of my pastors sat me
down and he said, Yeah, I wasyoung, I was in my late 20s, and
(25:31):
he sat me down, he said, Uh Ilove having you on my team
because I know your team's gonnado well.
But man, you leave a trail oftears behind you.
And I was like, Oh man, I'm sosorry.
Nobody ever told me, andsomebody finally had the guts to
look at me and say, Okay, Ican't just steer him anymore.
(25:53):
I gotta sit him down and say,You cannot keep doing this to
people.
You are hurting people, and sothat's when I had to create new
tools for my toolbox.
Where do I use my energies?
Where don't I use my energies?
Where do you use my power?
Not use my power, my words, notuse my words, and kind of
reshape who I was as a leader,both as a spiritual leader, as a
father.
(26:14):
My th we have five kids, mythree younger kids have
experienced a whole differentdad than my older two.
Course! Of course, yeah, and sobut so I told the church this
last year.
I was doing something with myyounger kids and my older
daughter, who's you know in her20s and she works at local
hospital, Bella, and and she'slike, Well, if that were us, you
(26:36):
would have done this and thisand this.
And this thought came to mymind, Well, you told me I should
get better.
Is that not me getting better?
And she stepped back, she goes,You're right.
You have gotten better, you're abetter dad.
I'm and I had to look in andsay, I'm so sorry I didn't do
this for you.
Yeah.
But you giving me that feedbackat 16 or 17 helped me with your
(26:56):
younger siblings.
So it's all of us doing thistogether, Sylvia.
And I think that's the otherthing that we missed out in
today's culture, is thatespecially if you grew up with a
family dynamic, sometimes thatfamily dynamic could be very
overwhelming, especially inLatino culture or immigrant
culture, where you're like yourfamily is the identity and you
don't get a sense of self.
SPEAKER_03 (27:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (27:17):
But then we fight so hard to have a sense of self
that we push away from familybecause somehow we have to to
get our own identity.
And as we grow mature, we haveto learn to emesh those things,
not enmesh, combine thosethings, not enmesh them.
It's work you've done recently,the last couple of years.
I won't share your story, but Iknow with your family where
(27:38):
you've stepped intoconversations, right?
I've had to do that with myfamily.
It doesn't mean I go back andsay, okay, my dad is my daddy
again, and my dad gets to tellme what to do, but hey, this is
my dad, I'm gonna honor him.
And then there are clearboundaries that we have, but now
we've we've agreed on the set ofrules, and let's move forward as
a family, you know?
Yeah, we just live in a culturewhere people either have one or
(27:59):
the other, and that it'ssomewhere between that sweet
spot.
SPEAKER_00 (28:03):
Well, for me now it's the identity in Christ.
That's been the last couple ofyears for me, and that was a
hard one because I didn't knowscripture at all.
In fact, I laughed when God saidin 2020, Are you gonna use
scripture in your first book?
I'm like, how?
I don't even know the Bible.
Like, how am I gonna do this?
And he's like, You don't worryabout the how.
(28:24):
I'm the one that worries aboutthe how.
You just stay obedient to whatI'm gonna tell you to do.
You just have your notebooks andyou just, you know, I'm gonna
download them and you're gonnawrite.
Um, and no way, I'll I'll I'lldo the figure out it out.
This is the part where I thinkmost people, because we're in a
culture of wanting to control atevery aspect of our
(28:47):
circumstances, this is a partthat's tough for for young
people.
What would you say to them,those that want to just stay in
control and not let go?
SPEAKER_02 (28:59):
I I would say, we've said it several times on this
call.
I would say the scripture tellsus to always search our heart.
So I'll give you a tool.
Um, David in the Psalms wouldsay, Search my heart, O God.
Is there any wicked way in me?
Is there anything that keeps mefrom the way everlasting?
(29:23):
And so that's actually a prayerI pray every day.
But it's a danger, it's adangerous prayer.
Because every time I've prayedit, God has shown me something.
Like I'm thinking I'm having abad day, I'm a victim of
something, you know, so I'mgetting 10, you know, a thousand
emails that are awful, whatever.
And then I say, God, search myheart as any wicked way in me.
(29:43):
And God's like, Oh yeah, youneed to call and apologize to so
and so.
Oh, you need to go.
I'm like, okay.
But I think, Sylvia, to yourpoint, when we want to control,
we have to ask ourselves why.
And and and pinpointing a personor something that triggers us is
actually not the end result.
That's actually the beginning.
(30:04):
Once you identify it's becausemy mom, or because I was abused,
or because of my addiction, nowyou have the real work.
How did I get into thatsituation?
What were the effects of thissituation?
Because control comes fromsomewhere.
That's because I I didn't havecontrol in a particular
situation.
So I say when somebody has that,before you start trying to
(30:26):
change the outward, look inwardand pray.
That I um that is not good, thatis not righteous.
Um, I'll tell you a really coolstory.
It goes with this.
The last few weeks we've hadquite a few people attending, a
lot of new people attending ourchurch.
You probably noticed it'sthere's a lot of new families
(30:49):
and people representing ourcommunity, like a pretty diverse
group of people.
And uh and recently we've had alot of people who are atheists
start attending our church.
We've always had that in ourculture in our church, but every
weekend I'm meeting new peoplewho are atheists.
And I say, Well, tell me whatbrought you to Gateway.
And they're like, Yeah, I justfeel like I'm supposed to just
kind of explore faith.
And I actually kind of likethese services, and I don't even
(31:12):
believe in God.
And so if you're listening todayand you're and you're not a
believer in who Jesus is, okay,let me tell you why this is
happening.
See, in scripture, we are taughtthat we cannot bring somebody to
faith, no matter what kind ofhow good the preacher is, how
good the music is, how awesomethe church is.
Scripture says that you can onlycome to know God unless God's
(31:34):
spirit draws you to him.
So I to I find rest in that as abeliever in Jesus.
It's not my job.
God's at work.
So you hear me say an atheisthaving a feeling about going to
church, because we believebefore somebody believes, they
come along.
That God is already at work inpeople's hearts.
(31:57):
So today, everybody who'slistening, whether you're
believer or not believer, youcan ask God for help.
You can say, Okay, God, there'sI wanted a control, I wanted to
do this.
What's the issue of my heart?
And if you ask very honestly,you will get an answer.
You'll get at that mirror effectof here's why, this pain, this
(32:18):
hurt, this upbringing, whateverit might be.
And I that's the first thing Iwould tell somebody who has
control issues.
The second thing is once you'rewilling to be honest, who's a
safe person in your life thatyou can then process these
things with?
Maybe a safe person at work thatyou really trust.
Hey, how did I show up in thatmeeting today?
And give them room to be honestwith you.
(32:39):
If you're married, your spouse,hey, when we argued last week,
how did I show up and be givethem space to be honest with
you?
Sometimes we do this with ourkids.
Hey, when when we got anargument yesterday, did I do
something that really hurt you?
And giving your kids room togive you.
See what it does is you'reyou're you're testing the waters
(33:00):
of giving over control.
Do it with people you trust.
You don't just don't put onFacebook.
Anybody have feedback for me?
You're gonna get a bunch ofpeople who don't even know you.
So who do you know?
Who do you trust?
Say, hey, I'm working throughthis issue.
Will you help me?
Hey, I say I tell a lot ofpeople this when I when I tell
somebody on your team at work,when we go into this meeting, I
(33:23):
present, I want you to give mehonest feedback.
How was it?
It's a way of testing the watersin a very safe way with people
you trust.
Um, so those are just a coupletools.
Why do I do it?
And then how do I take stepstowards not being a controlling
person in a safe environment?
SPEAKER_00 (33:41):
I love it.
I I do love your tools becausethey're very relatable.
Number one, number two, thereare a lot of people that don't
even know where to start or howto take that first initial step.
And we both know that thatinitial step, especially like
for you in that college room.
I I still go back to that storyof you were in there by
(34:07):
yourself, and you could havechosen to stay exactly where you
were, but you heard somethinginside of you, like you said
earlier.
God pulls you towards him.
I felt that pull.
I had turned away from God for10 years in my first marriage.
And as soon as he asked for adivorce that first week, I
actually was sitting down,writing these things down
(34:30):
because God was downloadingsomething to me this week of
your identity is in me, Sylvia.
This is where your identity isat.
And I want you to go back andlook at all the significant
emotional events you and I'veshared, and you'll see how I've
been there for you and how theresults I can give you, and only
(34:52):
I can give you those results,right?
So he pulls you towards you.
The way it happened with me is Ifelt the need to get close to
God again, and it came out ofnowhere, and you would have
thought it didn't really comeout of nowhere.
I was in a dark, dark chapter.
I was coming out of divorce,into like stepping into a space
(35:15):
that was terrifying.
I had a little boy and I didn'tknow what I was doing.
And the pull was get to know meagain, get to talk to me, tell
me, share with me.
And I started to just write.
I just started my journal, andthe more I did it, the more I
felt at peace.
Right.
And I go back to your story ofit's just it takes that action
(35:39):
step of listening to that voiceand doing what it's asking you
to do.
It's simple, but my God, to doit.
You're like, ah, but I can dothis.
SPEAKER_02 (35:54):
Yeah, it's one of the things I've been I've been
noticing lately.
There is a desire in people anda desperation to know themselves
and understand who God is.
To the point where Sylvia,there's times where I see a lot
of new people who are exploringfaith or new to faith, or have
deconstructed and are reallytrying to get to a healthy place
(36:14):
of understanding of growing inGod again.
That in that desperation, inthat humility, humility is like
a fragrance that draws God.
Pride actually repels God.
So when you think you have itall together and you think you
have put it, you know, you'vefigured out life, that actually
(36:36):
repels who God is.
It's it's it's it's in theinvitation towards towards uh
brokenness and humility thatGod's like, yeah, this is this
is where I am made for arelationship.
You know, I am made to be, youknow, God your father, the one
who created you, the one whoformed you and shaped you.
And I think a lot of people needto be reminded of that.
(36:57):
That man, that's why I used tostay humble.
I I get asked all the time, howdo you why do you how do you
tell all the stories you tell onSunday mornings?
Like my wife would kill me if Ishared some of those stories.
But we just have an agreementthat these aren't stories to
entertain, these are stories tomodel for people.
It's okay to have questions,it's okay to have doubts, it's
(37:17):
okay to screw it up, it's okayto like have a day, you just
mess up.
Like, but my mess ups at 48 arenot the same mess ups when I was
28.
SPEAKER_00 (37:27):
No, no, no.
SPEAKER_02 (37:29):
A lot of us, a lot of us have a rhythm that we're
we're 28, 38, 48, and we'remaking the same mistakes we made
10, 15 years ago.
A lot of that is because wehaven't had those honest moments
in the mirror and being willingto say I need change.
SPEAKER_00 (37:48):
Oh my goodness, yes.
The humiliate these, I toldDonnie said, How how do you
think the enemy is coming intowards you?
And I said, My anxiety and mypride.
My pride was tough to get past.
I just discovered that was thewhole reason of for the exercise
(38:11):
that God had me on since Marchof this year, which was I talked
to Haley Carter about it becauseas I was getting commissioned to
be part of the church, it wasone of the questions.
And she said, How are you doingwith that?
I was like, It's reallyhumbling.
It's very humbling.
But I was because he he said,You need to remove the sin from
your tent, Sylvia.
(38:32):
And what is, and to me thatmeant I had to sit back and
reflect, what is my sin?
What have I done?
How have I hurt others?
And then really like take a goodlook at, and I made a list of
people, and even the my bully inpickleball, the the person that
I like could not see, we we werepart of the same groups and
(38:54):
stuff.
I actually approached her andand apologized.
I had offended her.
I didn't know what I had done toher, but she and I had this
major rift, and and I called herup and before she left in June
to go to her summer place, Isaid, Can I just invite you for
a smoothie?
I I just want to talk to you.
And we sat down and I said, Idon't know what I did, but
(39:17):
whatever it was, I'm very sorry.
And I re I repented, you know,to and it just opened up a
conversation.
It was very healing, but it's itwas my path to exercise that
humility because I knew my pridewas standing in my way.
And I remember what I told youabout that full circle moment,
it started with that look onyour face.
(39:38):
Yeah, because I could tell thatyou knew that my pride was a big
part of my block.
But I had to realize that.
I had to sit back and reflect itin what, and it was not an easy
thing.
I to sit in front of my buildingwas like.
(40:00):
I'm the girl and an apologize toher.
Why her?
You know?
And that is like because she'son your list.
You asked me for help.
I'm sharing with you what thisis the truth.
You wanted the truth.
Here it is.
So go do it.
Because it's gonna prepare youfor your husband.
The biggest one you're gonnahave to like do.
SPEAKER_02 (40:20):
Well, it I I will say because I know we're coming
to the end of our time, but Iwant to share something with
you.
A few years ago, um, we moved toAustin right before the
pandemic.
We bought our house six weeksbefore the pandemic, and I'm so
glad we did because afterwardswe wouldn't be able to afford it
because all the houses went soup and so high in price.
But we uh it was a newer houseum in a in a good neighborhood,
(40:41):
and so it had new um neweverything.
New everything.
So it had new trees.
And uh if you've lived in Austinlast few years, you know we've
had a few freezes during thewinters, and and so I I left,
you know, they had the stakesand to keep them up with the
winds and the ice and all thatkind of stuff.
And after the second freeze, Ikind of noticed that maybe our
(41:03):
trees were gonna die uh from thefreezes and and and whatnot.
So we brought on an arborist tolook at our trees and kind of
assess what's going on.
They're only a few years old, weneed to get new trees.
And he said, you know, theproblem wasn't the winter storm
for you.
That was for a lot of people.
The problem wasn't um the winds,the problem is that you left the
(41:27):
stakes in the ground after twoyears, you didn't allow the tree
to grow to then resist the windand resist the ice.
And I was like, Well, wait, whydo they put the stakes to begin
with?
And he says, Well, you have tohave the stakes because when
they're infants and when they'rebabies, baby trees, you want you
need it needs help and thesupport.
But eventually the thing thathelps you support and survive
(41:50):
becomes the detriment tomaturity.
Well, how many of us listeningtoday?
Our pride helped us survivetrauma, our our drive helped us
survive you know, poverty.
Our the way we're wired helpedus survive being first, you
know, an immigrant here orfacing sexual abuse like me.
(42:10):
So the thing that protected us,once we're no longer in that
zone, can be the very attitudethat actually suffocates us from
trying to get healthy.
Man, that's a really toughlesson for us.
Um, because with my parents, myparents are great people, but
we're all in water.
And I remember my wife aboutfive years ago said, you put up
(42:33):
a boundary with your parentswhen you were young, but that
boundary has turned into abarrier.
So now what was healthy hasbecome unhealthy, and you're
keeping your family out.
And I wonder how many peoplelisten today you've survived,
you've built a business, you'vebuilt a family, whatever you've
done, education, you're adoctor, you're a lawyer.
(42:56):
And the thing that got you theremight be the very thing keeping
you from actually living thelife you actually want, whether
in Christ or in your business.
And we have to have thosemoments we've said several times
today, where we look in themirror and we're honest with
ourselves, and we walk inhumility and say, okay, that
thing helped me for the first 20years, 30 years, 40 years.
It's actually going to kill mymarriage.
(43:17):
It's going to kill my law firm,it's going to kill my practice.
And we have to have thosemoments of honesty.
SPEAKER_00 (43:23):
So I love that.
I love that because it's veryreal.
This is a really raw and realconversation.
It's not sugar coated.
We've been very honest.
It's a humbling experience tolook in the mirror and to say,
okay, God, share with me what Iremove whatever the wicked ways,
(43:44):
you know, the verse that youwere talking about from David.
Yeah.
So any last words ofencouragement for those
listening?
SPEAKER_02 (43:53):
Yeah, I think something that that we um we've
kind of we've kind of hit onalready, and then you and I were
talking before we startedrecording, and that is we live
in a culture that gives uspermission and affirms us
running from particularsituations.
And the truth is the samechurch, the same place, the
(44:18):
church that hurt me as a kid,the same place I found healing
in as an adult.
And it's the same place I nowhelp heal others.
And so I wonder how many of us,as we look in the mirror, are
honest with ourselves, may haveto revisit some things.
Not may, we all have to revisitcertain things so that we can
(44:38):
find the empowerment to movethrough those things.
Because if we don't, we willlose a huge opportunity, and
then we end up building a lifeavoiding things instead of the
life in the very place God mayhave wanted you to be.
And so as you look in themirror, as you're honest with
yourself, always be willing torevisit.
And remember, that person mayhave hurt you, that bully may
(45:02):
have bullied you.
It doesn't mean you have to bebest friends, it doesn't mean
you have to do life together,but it does mean sitting in it,
working through it, and allowingyourself to find some healing in
the very place that hurt you isis kind of the way God works.
And it's hard to it's hard toacknowledge that, but you can't
(45:23):
give into the culture that says,well, just run, start a new
life, do your own thing.
You can do it, but it's so muchsweeter and so much better and
more healthy to go back to thatspot, find healing, and move
from that point on.
It helps remove some of thosedarts and those pain points.
So um, as we're in this holidayseason of seeing family, seeing
(45:45):
friends, we some of us might besitting in that right now.
You might be in the house withthe very people who hurt you.
Ask yourself the question firstbefore you accuse anybody else.
And once you have that answer,have a different viewpoint of
those same people.
I see my parents verydifferently.
They they did the best theycould with what they had.
(46:07):
And I found a lot of forgivenessin that and healing, and I want
that for others as well.
SPEAKER_00 (46:12):
And what a gift to give to yourself, in all
honesty.
In this season of giving andgifts, might as well give
yourself that gift of healing bydoing what just what you said,
God loves to do, because it isimportant for us to be able to
move through life.
We don't want to get to the endof our life and have those
regrets on our deathbed.
(46:33):
Of like, I wish I had talked tothem.
I you have the opportunity now,especially if your parents are
alive and those people arealive.
Those conversations were thebest I've had in the last couple
of months, I'll tell you.
And the last couple of years ofmy father's life, they're the
best because I was able to tellthem exactly how I felt.
(46:55):
And like you, I now know and Isee, I started to see them in
the light through God's eyes,which is it changes everything.
It transforms the way you viewpeople when you can see them in
that light, in that beautiful,honest light.
And all of my listeners havereleased that review of purpose
(47:16):
know how I usually sign off onthe on the show is to always to
remember Matthew 5.14 that saysto be the light.
Be that beautiful light that youwere meant to be.
Uh, look at God, look what abeautiful light he became.
It didn't matter where hestarted, look at where he's at
today.
You know, use that light for thebetterment of humanity.
(47:38):
This is what how we were allgifted and meant to be on this
earth.
And I just thank God that I hadthe privilege and the honor of
interviewing my own pastor.
My heart was racing the entiretime, but I got through it.
It was so awesome to have you onthe show.
Thank you for coming uh andbeing here with us and blessing
(48:00):
us.
That this show will be released,interestingly enough, on
December 25th of this year.
So Merry Christmas to all.
SPEAKER_01 (48:08):
Please marry that.
SPEAKER_00 (48:10):
Bye-bye.
SPEAKER_03 (48:14):
So that's it for today's episode of Release
Doubt, Reveal Purpose.
Head on over to iTunes orwherever you listen and
subscribe to the show.
One lucky listener every singleweek who posts a review on
iTunes will win a chance theGrand Prize drawing to win a
$25,000 private VIP day withSylvia Worsham herself.
(48:37):
Be sure to head on over torelease out reveal
purposepodcast.com and pick up afree copy of Sylvia's gift and
join us on the next episode.
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