June 11, 2025 • 50 mins
Adina Kaplan was best friends with Miriam Holman since they were in diapers. While they didn’t quite get along as babies, as they grew older, they became close friends, forming a strong bond that carried them through elementary school, high school, seminary, and beyond.
When Adina was just 18 years old, Miriam was diagnosed with a terrible illness. Adina became a tremendous source of support for Miriam, helping her navigate the fears and unknown that came with her diagnosis.
Three years after Miriam’s diagnosis, she was hospitalized, and Adina’s life changed forever. Her days revolved around Miriam’s wellbeing. She was by her side day in and day out, always trying to do more and make ease Miriam’s pain. Unfortunately, Miriam passed away a few months later, leaving Adina grieving the loss of her dearest friend.
When Adina got married a year and a half later, it was very hard for her to process that Miriam wouldn’t be there to celebrate her big day. She couldn’t believe her husband would never meet her best friend.
Adina, along with Miriam’s family and friends, keeps Miriam’s memory alive. They talk about her, reminiscing on special times, commemorate her yahrtzeit together, and hold tight to the joy Miriam brought into the world.
Adina remains closely connected to the Holmans, and they treasure their relationship with their daughter’s dear friend.
Today, Adina runs Mayrim in Eretz Yisroel, continuing Miriam’s legacy by supporting bereaved families and helping them through their grief.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the Relief from Grief podcast, hosted by
Mrs Miriam Rebiet and brought toyou by Mayrim.
Mayrim is an organizationdedicated to supporting families
who have experienced the lossof a child.
It was founded by EloiNishmat's, nechama Liba and
Miriam Holman.
Despite her illness, miriamdevoted herself to addressing
(00:22):
the needs of parents andsiblings grappling with the
immense pain of losing a child.
She felt this loss deeply,having experienced it firsthand
when her older sister, nechamaLiba, passed away.
Mehrim continues to uplift andexpand on the work Miriam began,
a mission carried forward byher parents with great
dedication.
(00:43):
If you have any questions orcomments for the speaker, or if
you'd like to suggest a guestfor the podcast, please email us
at relieffromgriefatmayrimorg.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Thank you so much for joining me here on the Relief
from Grief by Mayrim podcast.
Today, mrs Adina Kaplan is ourguest and I'm very excited to
hear from her.
She was a very good friend ofMiriam Holman and Miriam
eventually was named after herand today Adina runs the Israeli
branch of it.
So thank you so much for comingon, adina.
(01:15):
I really appreciate it.
Thank you for having me.
I guess we could start off withthe basics, like how you know
Miriam and what yourrelationship was like.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
So Miriam and I grew up together.
I think my mother, when we werelike two years old, used to
babysit both of us, like alongwith a group, and we did not get
along as kids, as very littlekids.
And Baruch Hashem, as we gotolder we, you know, found a very
, very special, uniquefriendship in each other.
So we've been friends sincewe're, since before I can
(01:46):
remember, you know, throughoutschool, elementary school, high
school and beyond.
My family's very close with theHolman family also.
So you know we're bonded in alot of ways.
But yeah, that's how I knowMiriam.
I know her as long as I knowmyself.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Wow, wow.
So you really go way, way back.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
So how old were you when Miriam got sick?
Speaker 3 (02:07):
So when we were 18, I was 18, she was 19, but it was
the seminary year and Miriamwent to Artist Rall for seminary
and I didn't.
I was in America and she gotsick around circus time, so it
was like October, november.
She came back in November,december and then spent, you
know, the rest of the year.
(02:27):
She joined a seminary in fivetowns and she got a job and she
was totally fully functioning asanyone Like.
People didn't even realize thatshe wasn't well because she
just came back and integratedinto life in America beautifully
.
So we were able to be backtogether again, you know, even
though she was anticipatingspending the year in Israel and
(02:48):
yeah.
So she was 19 when she got sickin seminary.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
So was this scary for you and for her?
I guess because her oldersister, necham Liba, also had
been sick and was niftar.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Very much so, very, very much so.
I think for anyone who knew theHolmans and who knew Miriam, it
was like it felt like a bigpunch in the stomach when she
got sick, but once, like theinitial shock wore off, people
didn't really know that she wassick.
People totally forgot shewasn't, she didn't look sick and
(03:21):
she didn't act sick.
Now, privately, in ourfriendship, I know for her it
was really really difficult.
It was really really difficultnot to compare herself to her
sister, not to you know, just interms of not being well, and to
you know, I remember having aconversation with her once where
I was telling her like Miriam,you're nothing like Nahama in
(03:42):
this way.
Like you have a differentdiagnosis, you have a different
prognosis.
Like everything's different.
You can't look at her outcome,which was obviously so, so, so
tragic, but you can't look atthat and kind of write yourself
off, give yourself a deathsentence because of that.
And she totally, totallyexcelled at not doing that and I
(04:03):
know that it was scary for her.
It wasn't something that wespoke about on the regular, but
it was definitely scary for herand it was definitely
challenging for her, verychallenging that we spoke about
more than like the scary part ofit.
But yeah, because she had, youknow, experienced the loss of
(04:24):
her older sister.
There was, for sure, thatelement there that made it extra
hard, extra scary for everyoneand obviously for for her as
well.
But it was a very differentstory.
Her sister was much youngerwhen she passed away and there
were so many things that were sodifferent about the story that,
like I really, when it came upin conversation with Miriam, I
really tried to remind her likedon't, don't use Nechama as like
(04:47):
baseline for what things aregoing to look like, cause you
have a different, totallydifferent life, totally
different DNA makeup.
Like you're, you're not, youdidn't, it's not going to be the
same.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
I saw a picture of her.
Her father sent me a picture,Miriam and her father together,
just like a beautiful picture,and I was like, oh my gosh,
she's so cute and she's sopretty and just so much like
like so full of life.
And I do I think about thatpicture a lot.
I'm like it makes no sense, itjust it just makes no sense.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
Yeah, you know what I am A lot of people and if
you're, if you're, if you'retalking about a picture that I'm
thinking of she probably wasactually quite ill in that at
that point already about apicture that.
I'm thinking of she probably wasactually quite ill in that at
that point already.
You know, I remember someonereached out to me like a little
bit after Miriam, maybe like ayear or two after seminary, and
(05:35):
she looks at she's like, by theway, what happened with Miriam?
Like I heard a rumor she wassick, but then like what
happened and I just like playedit off or whatever.
But for me that was like such areminder that like people
didn't know what was going on.
You know, I remember sitting inthe car with Miriam once and
she was telling me you know,obviously there was a lot of
unknown in her condition and herprognosis and her future, and
(05:56):
we were talking once aboutShidduchim.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
We're probably I don't know 1920.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
And she was saying how it's really hard for her
sometimes that people are justsuper, super insensitive, like
they don't realize that she has,you know, very special
circumstances.
That obviously doesn't meanthat you can't get married, but
it's her, her, her like roadmapwasn't looking the same as her
friends and you know, I told herI like almost blamed her.
I was like you know, you're themost functional, normal person.
(06:23):
I know Like if you looked sick,people would be much more
sensitive.
And she said that to me.
She's like I almost wish that Ihad an illness that people
could see and that would be areminder and then they would
know don't talk about certainthings in front of me, like it's
a very sensitive thing.
But she didn't.
And that was like obviouslycame with its challenges, the
fact that it was a silent, moreof a silent, illness.
On the other hand, she almostbordered on herself by just
(06:46):
being so normal and so herself,and so like you wouldn't know
that anything changed from whoshe was, where she was, that
people, even some of our goodfriends, like I think, just
forgot, had they realized whatwas going on, they obviously
would have been a lot moresensitive, but like there was no
reason to think she wasdifferent than any of us.
So the same way you'd fetchabout to a totally healthy
(07:07):
friend, you're fetching about itto her because in your head
she's totally healthy.
And that's just like oneconversation that that really
stood out to me because it justmade me realize that, like she's
doing a really good job livingher life, people don't realize
like I give her so much creditfor that, give her so much
credit for that.
And it's not just like she cameback.
(07:28):
She was.
She went to seminary, she wentto college.
She was.
She wanted to be a sonographer,like to do like ultrasounds and
stuff.
And so she was in college.
She was working two jobs.
Like she, she was doing a lotmore than the average person,
with a lot less energy and a lotyou know with, with her
situation looking a lotdifferent than most people's.
(07:49):
And when it came to going to asimcha, nowhere was too far.
She'd have no problem gettingin the car and driving to Muncie
, you know from Farakway, as ifit was around the corner.
She was the first one at thesimcha to be there, the last one
to leave and dancing the entiretime and dancing the entire
time.
So it's like she, she totallylived her life after she got
sick the way she lived it beforeshe got sick, which was just
(08:14):
being an all around amazing,amazing person, friend, daughter
, sister, like she just was thekind of person who you could
always, always rely on.
Anytime you needed something,she was the one who you didn't
even have to ask, like she wouldoffer.
She was so thoughtful and solike, anticipating other
people's needs and, and you know, especially with her family and
and she was so generous and Iremember, like you know, being
(08:34):
out with her we were muchyounger and we probably had $10
to our names, you know and wewere like shopping on central
Avenue and like she wanted tobuy gifts for her siblings 'm
like I'm not spending my lastten dollars on that, but she was
like she went so out of her wayalso to make like yontif
special for her siblings.
She would buy like cute propsand cute little tchotchkes to
put on the seder table, you know, to make a whole big deal out
(08:55):
of kris yamsoth and all thatkind of stuff and she like,
really that's the way she livedthe first 19 years of her life
and that's the way she lived thenext three years of her life,
like it almost didn't matter.
Like you know, she, she did areally, really good job of
continuing life and I don't know, I didn't know at the time what
her prognosis was and I don'tknow if she knew and I don't
(09:17):
know if there was a prognosis,but she was living her life as
if she'd lived forever.
You's, you know, just college,you know it's a few year
commitment jobs, like everythingthat she did she poured herself
100% into.
And I don't know whether or notshe knew that she was, you know
, kind of living on borrowedtime or not.
(09:37):
I certainly didn't to thatextent and we never spoke about
that.
But from the way she lived, youwould think she was planning
the next 100 years of her life.
And maybe she was because shereally, really believed that,
that she would get through it.
So now that I'm thinking aboutit, I'm like no, she actually
might have been planning thenext hundred years of her life,
(09:58):
fully believing that.
You know, that's just the typeof person she was that's just
the type of person she was Wow,wow.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
So as a 20 year old 21 year old girl, I guess how
did you handle the death of afriend?
It's not something that most 21year olds have to contend with.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
I like, looking back now, seven years later, I'm like
I don't know how that happened,like, what, like my when Miriam
was in the hospital, so shewent in on Rosh Hashanah Matzei
Rosh Hashanah, I'm sorry and shewas Niftar's the day before Tu
B'Shvat.
So she was there for a handfulof months and in those months I
happened to have been working inthe city, not far from the
(10:35):
hospital where she was, and Iwould go over all the time
before well, not before work,but after work and then I would
sleep at the chesed apartmentthat was a few blocks down and
and then go to work straight thenext day.
Like this chesed apartmentbecame my second home and I
wanted to spend as much timethere as I could and I was able
to because I was single andbecause I was local and I didn't
really have many commitments.
So it was like a very, veryspecial time that we were able
(10:57):
to spend together.
But for those few months,however long, it was like day,
whether or not I realized itrevolved around.
Miriam how she was doing.
The first text I sent in themorning was to her parents how
was Miriam's night?
The last text I sent to her,you know, before I went to sleep
, was you know, how was her day?
You know, originally it wasthat I was talking to Miriam
(11:20):
herself but, you know, oncethings got went a little bit
more downhill.
I was in touch more with herparents and my day just revolved
around it and it was like itwas.
It was.
I obviously wish thecircumstances were different,
but it was really really asclose to be able to spend that
time with her and to have thatspecial time with her and to to
just to see her, the way sheinteracted with everyone and the
(11:43):
way she she conducted herself,regardless of what she was going
through.
So I don't know, like thethought of now I was 20 at the
time and the thought of a 20year old going through that
seems so, so, like incredulous,like how is that even possible?
Um, and I honestly I don't know.
I don't know.
And I actually remember whenMiriam was first hospitalized, I
(12:05):
got a text from a veryrespected and valued person who
deals a lot with grief andsomeone who's you know after
Miriam died and helped mepersonally.
But she texted me oh, I heardyou know Miriam's in the
hospital just letting you knowI'm here for you, which was
really, really nice.
She knew I was a close friend.
But as soon as I saw that I waslike in my head I was like I
(12:33):
think she's dying Because, youknow, if, like the grief person
is reaching out to you to likesay how can I help you, it's
like, wow, this must be reallybad and I was just crying and
crying.
I'm like it must be worse thanI thought it was, you know.
But then after that, we werelike really able to.
You know, once I got over thatand I was able to move past that
(12:54):
like really intense fear, itwas really just like it was just
what you did, it's what you do.
Like it wasn't even like peoplelike like I am not a humble
person.
I'm just not like if I dosomething that deserves credit,
I have no problem taking creditfor it.
This wasn't something that, tome, like deserved credit.
Like I know that if, god forbid,the roles were reversed, she
(13:15):
would have done the same for metimes a thousand.
You know, like it wasn't even aquestion.
Like you're there for, for yourfriends, for your best friends,
for your sisters, like you'rethere for the people who you
love the most.
So it's not like a, it's not aquestion of like, can I make it
work?
It's like what do you mean?
Like?
This is her life right now.
So this is my life right now,and it was my life for a while,
and I put dating on hold for awhile because I didn't have the
(13:36):
head for it, and I put a lot ofthings on hold and I wouldn't
have done it any other way,because this is what you do for
the people that you love.
And and again, like, the factthat I was single and able to
have that time with her issomething that I really, really
thank Hashem for and I reallytreasure, because, you know, we
have other friends that might'vebeen really close with her in
(13:57):
high school but then they gotmarried right away.
So they kind of, you know, losttouch a little bit.
And then, when it came to whenMiriam was in the hospital for
those for those I don't knowfour months, you know they were
able to come like once, twice,maybe three times, but there's
only so much they could do,especially if they had kids, and
I really felt like Hashem putme in this opportunity where,
like I could do for her what shewould have done for me, a
(14:18):
fraction of it at least.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
It's very special because what I'm hearing is like
you.
Obviously very special becausewhat I'm hearing is like you.
Obviously you yourself have avery strong positive attribute
of being a good friend, but whatyou're saying is that like part
of what made you such a goodfriend is because of Miriam's
like me dose and the way, theway she was, that you know that
she would have done been likethat in a second.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
She would have done what I did, but so much more and
anticipated every single needbefore I even knew that I needed
it.
Like it's just I don't know thesame way, like like you would
do anything for your, for yourmother, for your father, for
your, for your sibling, for yourkid Like it's not a question,
it's not a favor, it's what youdo because you want to do it,
and that's exactly what it is.
(15:01):
So I don't know, like it's acrazy thing for a 20 year old to
go through.
And you know, recently, when Iheard about someone around that
age passing away and I wasthinking about our friends, I'm
like gosh, I don't know howthey're going through that.
Then I'm like you went throughthat.
But I mean, first of all, it'sdifferent when it's you.
And also, like Baruch Hashem, Ihad such such a good support
system of my family, the Holmansour friends are like my mentors
(15:25):
, like everyone was in it.
The entire community was in it.
Everyone was davening so, sohard and everyone was so
invested that it wasn't like itwas, like it was a huge hug from
everyone.
I didn't feel like I was doingit alone.
I felt like I had the supportsystem that I needed, you know,
and after she passed away, ourfriends group got even closer
(15:46):
and you know, we, we really tookcare of each other and we still
do.
And it's you know, seven yearslater, um, we miss her like
crazy and when something happens, your group of friends, yeah,
yeah, so we, we were gettingtogether every year on her yard
site.
It got a little bit harder whensome of us moved to um artis
trial, um, totally on our yardsite, especially from, like our,
(16:10):
our tight knit friend group.
Someone will usually send amessage or you know, if someone
was an artist Ellen visitedMiriam's cave air they'll
message us like, very much partof our lives, very much part of
my life, um, you know, very muchpart of our lives, very much
part of my life, you know,whatever like I said, it helped
that there were a lot, a lot ofpeople who loved her and cared
about her.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
What happened by your ?
Speaker 3 (16:35):
wedding.
That must have been hard foryou to be engaged and get
married without her.
It was, it was, it was reallyhard I remember, like telling my
husband, I'm like I just Ican't believe that, like you
never met her, like she's such abig part of my life she was
back then.
I got married like a year and ahalf after she passed away and
seven years later she still is ahuge part of my life and I.
It was really hard, it wasreally really painful.
And I had this bracelet, um,when I I don't know what it was,
(16:59):
but at some point like inbetween I don't know what it was
, but at some point, like inbetween, after she got sick in
seminary, I was in Israel and Iwent to the Hodaya store and I
bought her a bracelet that said,probably going to botch it up,
but it said I think it saidbasically it was like a play on
(17:20):
words, but in English it saidlike when the waters get tough,
that's when the strong peopleare revealed Kishav, mayim,
biskalim, hamaskalim, somethingI don't know.
And I gave it to her and aftershe passed away, her parents
gave me the bracelet back and Iand I wore it to my wedding and
it was like I felt, like Ireally I felt like she was there
and you know, just throughoutthe wedding, like she came up in
my mind multiple, multipletimes and I, my husband has,
(17:43):
since you know, we're marriedfive and a half years now and my
husband has said many, manytimes like I feel like I know
her, I totally feel like I knowher, and when it's around her
yard site and you know, orsomething comes up or whatever,
it is like he's really, reallysupportive and he feels like
this is he never met her, butthat's about it.
Like he, everything else wasdone and I know that like they
would have hit it off, theywould have you know, but that it
(18:08):
was a really, really painfulthing that someone who was such
a big part of my life is notgoing to meet someone who was
also such a big part of my life.
Right but you know, at the sametime, the fact, like I said, the
fact that I was able to spendall that time with her in the
hospital because I wasn'tmarried.
You know, I would take thatover, being married earlier so
(18:30):
that my husband could know her.
You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
I have a sister that was NIFTA and she also her
friends, like she had one friendalso that like quit her job so
that she could be there for mysister, like really, really
dedicated, very amazing.
And like I guess when I'mlistening to you talk I'm like,
okay, my sister was anexceptional person, I guess
Miriam also was and I guess shealso just has exceptional
(18:53):
friends and it's amazing thatyou keep her alive because it's
just it's the biggest nahama foryou, for the family, for
everyone.
I think it's just so likeamazing.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
I think also like part of part of and I don't know
if you're in touch with yoursister's friends or but part of
what also keeps her alive islike that.
I feel very, very fortunate tohave a very close relationship
with the Holmans and when I talkto Mrs Holman which I do quite
often I feel like I'm talking toMiriam and when she talks to me
she feels like, like we're,like we're back on her couch.
(19:24):
In high school she wasn't onthe couch, you know me, miriam
and like her mom was sittingthere.
So we're all schmoozing likeand and I feel so blessed to
have that relationship and tohave that connection, because
it's like it's just, it's huge,like it keeps me so, so
connected to to Miriam herself.
You know, besides the fact thatI love her family independently
(19:45):
, just you know, that reallymakes a difference.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Yeah, it does make a difference.
That really is very, veryspecial.
So let's talk about Mayrim.
I know that, like we said, herolder sister was Niftar Nahama
and they sort of the whole one'sa little bit started some sort
of Shabbaton, but Miriam, I know, is the one that really wanted
to like make it into a big thing.
So I guess if you could tell usa little bit about that, yeah,
sure.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
so the Holman started , I don't know, maybe 18 years
ago when, after Nahama passedaway, miriam was like eight
years old and they went to aretreat a a bereavement retreat
and they really like, they feltlike it was really, really
beneficial, but it bothered themthat it wasn't for kids, also
(20:30):
because they had, I guess, three, I think three, other kids at
the time, ranging, you know,from ages, I guess, nine to
little kids.
But they saw that like thereneeds to be support for the kids
themselves.
So the Holman started maybe 18years ago.
I'm not sure.
A retreat every year in CampSimcha where families would come
(20:53):
together and they had abeautiful retreat.
It was for parents and kids.
It was for families that lost achild.
Sorry, I should clarify, butthe entire family was invited.
It wasn't like just for theparents.
It was very, very muchrecognized that child loss
affects every person in thefamily.
So there were things forsiblings, things for parents and
everything.
As we got older, Miriam becamemore and more instrumental in
(21:13):
running these Shabbatones, so itdidn't have an official name.
It was the Holman Retreat, theBereavement Retreat, and when we
were like in high school,miriam basically took over the
Shabbatons running them with herfather.
And you know, when we were in12th grade, a bunch of or 11th
grade, a bunch of friends wentupstate for the Shabbaton to
babysit.
You know, like Miriam like gother friends into it.
I didn't go that year, I wentlater on, but it was something
(21:36):
that Miriam was very, verypassionate about and she had
started.
She especially as she got oldershe became kind of like uh,
miriam was right under hersister right no, there's,
there's a boy in between sothere was no hum up.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
So how old was miriam when, when her sister was
nifter?
Speaker 3 (21:51):
so nakama was a few days away from her 11th birthday
.
Miriam was, I guess, eight ornine, so gotta put the brothers
somewhere in between, okay buttotally old enough to remember
her and yeah, yeah, yeah, verymuch so, very, very much so
miriam was also like she kepther entire life a very, very
strong connection with nahama,and I don't even know the half
(22:11):
of it, but I I do know that likeevery year on her yard site she
would get people to finishsafer to hill, and like it meant
a lot to her.
She, she really she felt theloss of her sister and she felt
her sister with her.
You know there were pictures inher room of nahum and miriam
together, so so, yeah, so miriamended up really like taking
over and she became kind of likea lifeline for girls, teenagers
that lost a sibling, and she afew times she made some sort of
(22:36):
like support group, unofficial,and you know she was in brooklyn
, so she met up with a bunch ofgirls.
They went out to eat for dinnerand they, you know, she was
just Brooklyn.
So she met up with a bunch ofgirls.
They went out to eat for dinnerand they, you know, she was
just the unofficial, like leaderof the group and so it's like
slowly became not just theShabbaton but like, very, very
minimally, miriam was doing, youknow, some things on the side,
but but then Miriam and herfather had plans to make it into
(22:59):
like a real year round programand they met with someone from
an organization and they really,like, had stuff in the works
and ideas to make it happen.
This was in the summer and thenMiriam was hospitalized.
So it was very shortly afterbefore they had a chance to
actually implement anything andMiriam from the hospital was
still working on it Like shewanted to.
(23:20):
You know they had to tell herlike now's not the time, like
put it down, you know, but thiswas something that she was so
passionate about.
So after she passed away it waslike a no brainer what her
family was going to do.
You know, leilo and Ishmasa.
So they took their annualretreat that they had been doing
for over probably 11 years andthey turned it into a year round
(23:45):
program, including the retreat,but also year round, and they
called it May Rim, which meansto lift people up, and it's a
play on words.
The same letters as Miriam andthey started this incredible,
incredible program in America,you know, in five towns in
Brooklyn and Lakewood and Muncie, supporting families year round
(24:05):
, with different events anddifferent support groups and of
course, the main highlight isthe annual retreat.
So the last year that Miriam didthe retreat, I actually went on
it with Miriam and with anotherfriend, like we just went to
help out, and it was reallyamazing to see Miriam in action
and to see the way she connectedto everyone and the way she
(24:26):
helped people and the way thatshe was like so geschickt and so
just made everything happen.
This was like really like herbaby.
And so when her family startedMayrim, I got involved in Mayrim
in America and whatever way Icould and the first retreat I
was that they did after Miriampassed away, I was married, my
husband and I went to help outand it's something that I was
(24:46):
very, very, um, like emotionallydedicated to.
Then I moved to Israel aboutthree and a half years ago and
three years ago, by Miriam'syard site, I was talking to um a
really close friend, nataraBlock, who was also a really
close friend of Miriam'sthroughout high school and
beyond, and I was saying, youknow, like Miriam's yardstick's
(25:10):
coming up, like what can we do?
And she said she's like this isgoing to sound crazy, but what
if we made like an event forbereaved people I don't know who
yet, but like someone kind ofdo like a May Room event here, a
one-time thing?
I was like, okay, one-timething we could do, so we decided
that like doing an event forbereaved moms was like really
scary.
We were, like, you know, 22years old and didn't feel like
we had it.
We had what it took.
So we said we're going to dofor bereaved siblings Plus, like
(25:30):
that was Miriam's, like she wasa bereaved sibling.
So we put together some plansand we spread the word and made
a flyer and we made a paintnight for girls and women that
lost a sibling, a brother orsister, and we did it in Ramada
Skol and we had between like 20,25 girls came and the family
(25:52):
served, like you know, a nicespread and the feedback was
absolutely like it was insane.
People were like so blown away.
You know, there were girls inseminary that came, so they
don't necessarily have communityhere, they're not near family.
There were young Americans whocame who don't, who are not in
your family, you know, so that'sreally difficult.
(26:12):
And then there were also, likeAmerican Israelis who came who
like don't exactly necessarilyfit into the Israeli system, but
they still need that supportand we didn't even realize that
like there was really such aneed.
They still need that supportand we didn't even realize that
like there was really such aneed.
So we, um, when we wereadvertising for that first event
, someone reached out to me andsaid hi, do you also do events
for moms?
And I'm like we don't like doevents.
We're doing one eventno-transcript.
(26:46):
They must have been like sohappy they were, like, they were
so into it, so happy I mean, wecouldn't have done it without
them, first of all because it'stheir organization, also because
they fund the whole thing.
They were, like, you know, whenthe first mom's event we we
showed like a slideshow ofMiriam, you know, and I spoke a
little bit just to introducepeople to the concept and again
(27:08):
the feedback was overwhelming,like, like again, we didn't know
that it was such a void.
We just decided, like, let's dosomething, you know, because
her yard site's coming up, let'sdo a one-time event and see
what happens.
And see what happens.
And then what happened is isthat, you know, we've had three
years now of running eventsthroughout the year, for we do
different types of events.
So we do events for girls andwomen that lost a sibling that's
(27:30):
usually like teenage, seminaryage and above, and then we do
events for moms that lost achild.
And then when Mr Holman is intown, which is fairly often, we
try, when we can, to make anevent for couples, because
obviously the fathers also needa lot of support.
But that's not something that Ican coordinate, you know, by
the moms and the siblings.
(27:51):
Events like Atara and I werethere, we're we're facilitating
it and we can't do that for thefathers.
So a bunch of times when MrHolman's come, we've done like a
couple's event and it's been.
It's been phenomenal, it's beenphenomenal.
And now we have people askingus if we can do events for
younger children, if we can makeevents kind of like, segment
them by like what kind of lossor how old the child was, you
(28:13):
know, and we're always open tonew ideas, but at this point we
have a database of probably over70 women who lost children, all
English speaking and the.
It's like it's such a stress forTara and I to be able to do it
Instantly the impact that you'remaking on people's lives and
how much you're helping them.
And so many people haveexpressed to us how special it
(28:34):
is just to come out for a nightand feel pampered.
And there are some people whowant to come out and they want
to talk.
There's some people who want tocome out and they don't want to
talk and they don't talk.
I mean, they talk but not abouttheir loss.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Right.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
But they all, like unanimously, express the same
sentiment that just being in thesame room with people who they
know have gone through you know,that loss, the siblings say
this, the mothers say this, thefather, everyone says this is so
powerful in and of itself, isso powerful in and of itself.
And we're not there to be asupport group.
And you know, obviously thereare friendships that have been
(29:05):
made through these events thatare amazing.
Amazing that they've reallybecome, you know, like each
other's anchor.
But most of our events are goodfood, a fun activity or like a
cathartic activity.
So it'll be like we do a lot ofart stuff, We'll do a food
competition, whatever it is.
You know, at Sarsimetshiva wehad a speaker, so that was like
a little bit more intense, buteven that the feedback was just
(29:27):
amazing.
People just love coming out andhaving the space, if they want
to, to talk and if they don'twant to, not to talk but to know
that they're with people whohave been through what they've
been through in their own way.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
This week you had?
Didn't you have an event thisweek for those that lost their
children were soldiers, oursoldiers.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
No, we didn't have that, did we?
Did?
I mean, obviously,unfortunately, there's a lot
more bereaved families now inIsrael in the past year plus,
and I actually spoke with a fewsoldiers, moms who when I told
them about Mayrim, they werelike really, really into it and
they were like this soundsamazing, this sounds like
something I can really benefitfrom.
I spoke with them more recentlyand then the event that came up
(30:08):
, the Hanukkah event.
Just timing wise, it didn'twork out for a few people, but I
can see in the futureattracting, you know, and if the
group is big enough, then we'relike we would do an event for,
exclusively for mothers who lostsoldiers, or mothers who lost
babies.
And that's what one of thepeople at our last event came up
to us and said like you know,she loves the events and they do
(30:28):
so much for her.
And she asked, like would yoube interested in making events
for people who, let's say, lostlike little little children?
Because obviously it's adifferent experience losing a
baby than losing an adult child.
And she, you know, and we toldher that that's something that
we're totally open to.
And she, you know, and we toldher that that's something that
we're totally open to, and wehave people that come from not
just Yerushalayim I mean, ourevents are in Yerushalayim,
because that's where Tara and Iare and that's most central but
(30:49):
we have people who are comingfrom Moshe Avin.
We have people who came fromB'nai Rock.
We had a couple who came fromTzvat, for one of you know, our
first couples event Like this is, and they made a vacation out
of it.
You know they, they made ittheir getaway, but it was around
this and and it's, you know,there's really we've learned
that there's really really aneed for Americans in Israel and
(31:12):
American Israelis to have thatkind of support and you know,
just, the Israeli culture isdifferent than the American one,
so the grief culture is goingto look different as well,
obviously and for people to beable to come together with
people who speak their language,literally and figuratively,
it's just proven to be like,really, really priceless.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
So you must be pretty amazing.
How do you like a young, ayoung girl I could call you that
because you're pretty young,whatever you want, not as really
.
And yet, like all thesebereaved siblings and parents,
mothers, they feel comfortablewith you, so how do you do that?
Speaker 3 (31:54):
So I want to just preface by saying it's not just
me, it's me and Atara.
Like Atara is absolutelyamazing.
She's not the one on the call,so, which is why I can say this
she's incredible, is absolutelyamazing.
She's not the one on the call,so, which is why I can say this,
she's incredible.
She happens to be a socialworker herself with a lot of
experience in grief.
So she's like you know, if,like something comes up, she's
always like, yeah, tara, likeget involved.
You know, but the women are so,so appreciative.
(32:16):
You know, like I said, when wewere, when Tara first had the
idea let's make an event, wewere like, oh, we can't go near
bereaved moms, like that'sterrifying, you know.
Like they don't want these.
Like you know, little 22 yearold fishers Like, yeah, they do,
they do because people willtake support from wherever they
can get it.
And it's been such a big lessonfor me like that.
And I've become close with a lotof the moms and when I see them
(32:37):
at the events, we hug eachother and we're so excited.
And after I had my baby, theygot so excited.
I got so many miles.
I was like they, they feltinvested because I'm someone who
they appreciate and Iappreciate them.
And it's just, you become closewith people because they end up
sharing their experiences andthe fact that you know Baruch
(32:57):
Hashem Atara and I have not beenin that place it's not a
deterrent, like at the events.
You know, we, we set upeverything and then we'll
usually step aside.
We don't want to be in anyone'sspace.
A lot of times the moms willinvite us.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
Hey, why don't you come do the?
Speaker 3 (33:09):
project with us and, yeah, I have no problem sitting
with them and I'll usuallyschmooze with them, but at the
same time, we're very cognizantof the fact that, like, some
people only feel comfortabletalking to people who have
experienced and my job is tofacilitate that, not to be there
.
So, if that means sitting inthe kitchen while everyone's in
the dining room, amazing.
If there's an issue, they knowwhere to find me.
You know like, and it's hard,also like it's not.
(33:31):
I think that.
And also you meet people andyou see that behind every big
name and big face and whateveris, is a person who's suffering
a lot and who's really, reallygrateful to receive support.
And there are so many peoplewho have come to events who,
like I, had heard their storiesfrom news, from friends, from
whatever.
And then you meet them andyou're like, oh my gosh, like
that's them.
And it's like what that's themLike and they're really
(33:53):
suffering and to be able to be.
You know, the we have.
It's very interesting becausethe Holmans have a rule on their
retreat.
They typically don't letfamilies who like experienced
the loss within the year comeand they have their reasons and
they're all really good reasons.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
They also don't let anyone speak.
That didn't lose a child,correct, correct.
It's amazing what you're doing,yeah yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
So we have events where women lost their children
over 20 years ago.
And we also had an event oncewhere the women were going
around and they were each sayinglike their name and sharing
some information and one of thewomen had, like, just passed her
daughter, shloshim, and it waslike it was so shocking because
I didn't think that people atthat stage would even be, but
people are really, reallythirsty for that.
(34:40):
I had someone reach out to me.
I had just landed, after beingin America for Pesach.
I landed in Israel and I got acall from an unknown number.
So I answered it and it was alady who had just lost her son,
I think Rosh Chodesh's son andshe said I heard about this
organization, I want to getinvolved and I'm like you sure
you want to get involved.
She's like, yeah, I really wantto get involved and she's been
(35:01):
to every event since and thefeedback that she gives she's
like you don't understand whatyou're doing for me and she came
so soon after she lost her son.
At the end of the day, like thisis they become part of this
really, really dreadfulcommunity that no one can ever
fathom being a part of, and tobe able to give them that
(35:23):
support.
It's not.
You know, I talk to Mrs Ullmanusually after every event and
I'll just tell her how it went.
She looks like thank you somuch, thank you so much.
I'm like you don't have tothank me.
Like this gives me so much.
Sipa Kanepesh and I know Attarafeels the same way and it's like
it's instant gratification.
(35:49):
It's like you see, as you'redoing the event, you see the
women walk in and go, like yousee it, and you see them leaving
feeling different, feelinguplifted, feeling empowered,
feeling good, feeling understood, and it's like it's a no
brainer.
And when Atara and I do eventsor planning the activity, we're
always thinking about like whatwould Miriam have done?
And after every, mrs Ullmancould tell you, probably after
almost every event that we'vedone, and I spoke to her.
I said like Miriam was there,like she would have done this,
down to the T, down to this typeof sushi, this type of activity
, this type of tablecloth likethis is exactly what she would
(36:13):
have done and I know she wouldhave and had she had the
opportunity to be able to dothis for people you know
siblings, for moms, for anyone,she did what she was able to and
then she had really big plansthat unfortunately couldn't come
into fruition and to and thenshe had really big plans that
unfortunately couldn't come intofruition and everything we do
it's like exactly the way thatMiriam would have wanted it and
it's really really special forus as friends to still have that
(36:34):
connection with her also.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
In that way, I think again, it like attests to her
character that she has suchwonderful friends and such
wonderful family.
That's for sure, that's forsure.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
For sure.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
I just finished I mean whatever it's in the final
stages of editing.
I hope you know a book forbereaved parents, right, I did
it together with you know, glennHolman.
But I spoke to so many peopleand there were some people and
especially in Eretz Israel,there was a few people in Eretz
Israel a big favor by opening up.
I felt like like I was doingthem the favor.
(37:09):
I would ask one simple question, whatever, and they would go on
for on and on and on and on.
Or if it was through emails,like you think, who wants to
type so much?
But these long emails back andI was like, oh my gosh, like
there's so many people thatreally need to talk and like
they're just not finding theright people to talk to.
So I I really get what you'resaying, that mothers, you know,
really need it.
Speaker 3 (37:27):
It's so true.
And listen, I know for myself Ican't speak for a Tara, but you
know it can be very emotionallydraining, especially as Tara
and I are both mothers ourselvesand when we do the mom's events
there have been so many timeswhere I'll just walk into the
next room just tears streamingdown my face.
And it's so hard to be in aroom with so many people who are
(37:47):
in so much pain and it's notlike like these are.
A lot of them are very happypeople.
You wouldn't know that they'rein so much pain, but because we
do know them and because they'rethere that night we know that
they're there for a reason.
And when I look around at a roomof 20 women and I'm like
they've all gone through this,Like it, it, it's hurt so, so
much.
But then you think about, youknow, like I can't take away
(38:08):
their pain and I we can't changeanything about what happened.
But if we can be a little bitof light, you know, we had a
girl come to one of our siblingsevents once and she walked in
and she was like, oh my gosh,I've never felt like this before
.
She didn't even know anyone atthe event, she just walked in.
I think for some of these girlsprobably, it's like they know
that no one's going to be at theevent.
Asking them, how many siblingsdo you have?
(38:28):
And they have to like, grapple,what number are you in your
family?
You know any of these thingsthat are so normal to come up in
day-to-day conversation.
But people who have gone throughthis type of loss, I mean, as
you know, are so much moresensitive to so people walk in
and they feel like I have acommunity and it's just, it's
unbelievable and it'semotionally draining, but it's
unbelievable and it's, it's aschuss, it really, really is.
(38:50):
It gives me a lot, a lot ofSipa Kanephesh.
It keeps me connected to Miriam, to the Holmans, to the
bereaved community that I wasvery, very minimally connected
with before Miriam died.
I helped her a little bit withthe retreat that last year, but
that was pretty much it.
Also, I will never claim tounderstand the pain that a
(39:10):
bereaved sibling goes through,because I didn't lose a sibling,
I lost a best friend.
She was like a sister to me,Definitely, you know.
I so to be able to give to thatcommunity that again.
Thank God I'm not a part of butI feel distant cousins with
because they're definitely, youknow, I experienced the loss of
(39:30):
someone really, really close tome.
It's something amazing and I'mgrateful that Atara came up with
the idea to even do this,because I never would have.
And Baruch Hashem has reallysnowballed into something so
much bigger than we could haveimagined at the time and it's
something that we intend to keepon, keep on continuing, because
the need is really, reallythere and the feedback, you know
(39:56):
saying that, that you're not ahumble person, but I think that
after this past 45 minutes, Ihave to disagree with you
because, if you wouldn't, be,humble, you wouldn't be able to
connect to all these people.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
The people would feel a certain sense of like you
just don't get me.
And yet the fact that you couldreally understand that you
don't understand and you couldbe sensitive enough, even though
knowing that you really can'tknow, I think is, in a certain
sense, a simple humbleness, andI think that's why you're so
successful.
Speaker 3 (40:25):
Right, and you know we try to, just, like I said, do
our thing and stay in the inthe background.
And you know, I went to one ofthe women who, like I became
close with.
It was her son's like secondyard site and they made an event
at their house and I went andshe was so appreciative to see
me and I felt like what do youmean?
Like I know you, like I'mconnected to you, I'm like such
a in such a personal way, likeof course I'm going to be there
(40:46):
and again, like we know ourplace.
But at the same time, peopleare much less snobby than you
think they are.
Most people are not superexclusive.
If you're doing something forthem and if they see that you're
genuine and that you reallycare, the fact that you've never
been through that loss isalmost like secondary, as long
as you don't pretend that youhave been.
And you know, try, you knowthey.
(41:07):
Sometimes the women will likejoke about all the like crazy
things that people have said tothem over Shiva.
You know, and sometimes peoplewill come into a Shiva house
just from what I've overheardfrom these ladies and like try
to like insert themselves, likeconnect it, like I know how you
feel because I lost it's like no, no-transcript, really really
(41:55):
need it and it's just so painfulto see.
But knowing that you can doeven a little something to
alleviate the pain is alreadylike forget an ahamah them, like
it's an ahama to me.
It really is almost like afavor to me, which is why, when
the hormones are like thank youso much, thank you I'm like this
was like this was kind ofselfish, also Like this is just
as much for me as it is foranyone else.
So this is great, you know,it's a win-win for everyone.
Speaker 2 (42:17):
Wow, Okay, Unbelievable.
Really, it's amazing.
I guess, I don't know.
I like we.
Before we end off, is thereanything um anything important,
any messages that we should endoff with?
Speaker 3 (42:31):
I think that you know there's two things there's the
being a very close friend ofsomeone who passed away, and
then there's the being in theposition where you know Baruch
Hashem I'm co-running the Meronbranch in Israel.
In terms of like losing a closefriend, I think that people
like don't always recognize justhow painful it is, and not even
(42:52):
for me, because for me, like Ihad a coveted place in Merim's
life and people knew that and Iwas there the entire Shabbat.
I happened to have, like yousaid, your sister's friend quit
her job.
I happened to have been like Iquit my job and then I was in
between jobs.
It like it worked out reallywell, but I was there the whole
time and people recognized me,whereas other ones of our
friends, who maybe got marriedright away or drifted apart a
(43:13):
little bit, they were in so muchpain but people didn't realize
that they even had that closerelationship to Miriam.
And I think that, like you know, when, when people go through
loss, even girls that we weren't, who weren't particularly
friends with Miriam in highschool you know we were a small
grade of 30, but we weren't allbest friends Miriam happened to
have been exceptionally nice toeveryone, but when we would make
(43:35):
the yard site events, like themost random people would come
because at the end of the day,like everyone is affected, it
hits really really close to home.
And when I hear about someone,lowly new, passing away now and
I think about their friends,like I try to reach out to their
friends and say like, first ofall, I'm really sorry, that
stinks, and especially if it's avery close friend, like they
(43:56):
don't get, they don't sit, shiva, they don't, they don't go
through that whole mourningprocess and they're not
necessarily recognized.
So I just feel like you know,it's a really, really unique and
horrible experience to lose afriend, especially a really,
really close friend who's morelike a sister and just I know
how much it was appreciated tome when people actually
recognized it and reached out tome, even though I wasn't the
one sitting Shiva.
You know that's the being afriend part.
(44:18):
And then, in terms of runningMayrim, like there's so much you
can do for community, whetheryou're part of it or not.
Like there's so much you can dofor community, whether you're
part of it or not.
And when there's a need, people, just when someone steps in,
they are forever, forevergrateful.
And again like even if it seemslike an intimidating audience,
and not like people that you,you know normally interact with
(44:40):
willingly, because I'm 20 yearsyounger and I don't have
anything to say.
You know you'd be people wouldbe surprised at how appreciated
it really is and and I, like Isaid, I really really feel
grateful that a tower came upwith the, with the idea, and
that the Holman's fund may rim,and that, you know, we obviously
couldn't do it without them.
The fact that these women allcome to our events free and
(45:01):
there's a sushi bar and there'ssalads and there's soup and and
they come and, like I said, theyjust feel pampered and without
paying a penny, so it's justreally really amazing what the
Holmans have done with theirpain.
And I know, like I said, whenwe do our May Rim events, it's
always like wow, mary would haveloved this.
And that's how it is with thewhole May Rim that they they're
(45:22):
doing amazing, amazing things inAmerica, you know, in all
different communities and theirShabbatotas and their support
groups and their meetups andtheir Rosh Chodesh for all
different ages.
And I just I think it's amazingthat Miriam was able to leave
behind a legacy that was soclear on what she was passionate
about, that it wasn't like dowe do this, do we do that it was
(45:42):
like no, we haven't evenstarted this, we're going to
continue it and that's exactlywhat we're doing.
I appreciate you giving me theopportunity to, you know, go on
to the podcast and share.
It's very cathartic.
Speaker 2 (45:54):
It's really, really amazing and I really like I so
much relate to what you'resaying Because even though, like
you know, like I lost a brother, a sister, I lost my both my
parents when they were young,like I went through plenty of
loss and then I was married andwith you know, young children
and whatever and are not youngchildren, and I lost friends,
two friends, and like when thefirst one was left, I was like
one second.
(46:14):
I don't have a place over here.
I never really knew her family,I never really knew her
children.
So it was just like, oh my gosh, like I'm lost.
I don't know how to grieve afriend.
How do I grieve a friend?
It's so much easier to grievewhen you're in it.
It might be more painful, butit's also easier.
And losing those friends andyou know what, till today, I
just kind of like I just shutmyself down.
(46:35):
I'm like I can't, I don't knowwhat to do with the pain.
Speaker 3 (46:39):
So just like turn it off because, because my family's
so close with the Holmans and Iwas so close with Miriam, like
I will forever, forever beconnected to them and for me,
like that was such a, I feltlike I had a place.
Even though it wasn't thatplace, I had a place and that's
why I really felt like more,like I had it easier in that way
(47:00):
than other ones of my friendswho really didn't have a place.
Maybe they didn't have such a.
They were very close to her butreally didn't have a place.
Maybe they didn't have such a.
They were very close to her butthey didn't have a checklist to
her family.
So then it's like awkward.
It's like do we stay?
Do they want to hear from youor is it more painful?
You know we have, we, miriam,had a had a very close friend in
high school who named herdaughter after Miriam.
I know that was like very, veryum, that was very, very
meaningful for the Holmans.
But I remember after Miriam died, mrs Holman said to me she's
(47:22):
like I can't imagine what you'regoing through losing a friend.
I'm like are you insane?
What are you saying?
Like what?
Because she had gone throughthis crazy, crazy loss.
But, like you're saying, whenthere's no clear place and
there's no clear process, youknow it's just very uncharted
territory.
And the fact that you had thosecrazy close experiences and
(47:46):
then lost two friends, it's likewhere do you put yourself?
And again, I feel blessed thatI knew where to put myself,
because I always felt like I hada place in the Holman family
and I still do, and I considerMrs Holman a second mother.
She considers me anotherdaughter.
You know, like, so I never hadthat awkward stage of like, do I
keep in touch?
Do I send her my VARDinvitation?
It was like, yeah, I wanted herto meet my husband before we
(48:08):
got engaged.
You know I needed her stamp ofapproval, you know, so, like
it's a different experience, butit's it's.
It's a very unique experiencesand and I kind of regret not
keeping more of a study journalback in that time where I can
look back and be like, wow, howdid we go through that?
Because now time like likeblunts the edges a little bit
(48:28):
and blurs it and and but, but bydoing things and by staying
connected to the family, I feellike we really keep things alive
.
And I don't know if yourfriends were from like high
school or whatever.
But I found that like even justgetting together with a few
friends.
And you know, last year umPesach time um Atara and I and
another friend who live inIsrael, who was also really
close friends with Miriam, wentback for Pesach and we got
(48:50):
together with our whole chavrabasically it was like 10 people
and I was like I was reallyfeeling Miriam's loss there.
You know, when we were drivingthere, listening to music and
like we all left our kids athome, it was just like we had a
ton of fun.
And when we got there I saidlike something felt like it was
missing.
I said like, guys, can we atleast like, maybe when we make
brahas let's just do a like.
And her loss was really, reallyfelt there, and not just for me
(49:10):
, from everyone who was there,even from people who didn't
necessarily keep up with her somuch.
It's just, it's not the same,but we all had that experience
of losing a friend, so we allhave that connection and we'll
be a closer grade because ofthat than we would have been had
we not been bonded by, you know, a really, really tragic loss
of one of the most popular,beloved people in the grade.
Speaker 2 (49:33):
Well, it's amazing.
Thank you so, so much.
I you know, Harnashe, I'm goingto continue to have an Aaliyah.
She must be having a lot ofAaliyahs from everything that
everyone is doing and thank you,thank you.
Speaker 1 (49:43):
Everyone is doing and thank you, thank you, thank you
so so much appreciate it you'vejust listened to an episode of
the relief from grief podcastwith miriam riviet, brought to
you by mayrim.
For more episodes, visit themayrim website at wwwmayrimorg.
Help us reach more people whomight benefit from this podcast.
If you know someone who couldfind it helpful, please share it
(50:06):
with them.
If you have questions orcomments for the speaker, or if
you'd like to suggest a guestfor the podcast, we'd love to
hear from you.
Email us atrelieffromgriefatmayrimorg.
We look forward to having youjoin us in the next episode.
Welcome to the Relief from Grief podcast, hosted by
Mrs Miriam Rebiet and brought toyou by Mayrim.
Mayrim is an organizationdedicated to supporting families
who have experienced the lossof a child.
It was founded by EloiNishmat's, nechama Liba and
Miriam Holman.
Despite her illness, miriamdevoted herself to addressing
(00:22):
the needs of parents andsiblings grappling with the
immense pain of losing a child.
She felt this loss deeply,having experienced it firsthand
when her older sister, nechamaLiba, passed away.
Mehrim continues to uplift andexpand on the work Miriam began,
a mission carried forward byher parents with great
dedication.
(00:43):
If you have any questions orcomments for the speaker, or if
you'd like to suggest a guestfor the podcast, please email us
at relieffromgriefatmayrimorg.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Thank you so much for joining me here on the Relief
from Grief by Mayrim podcast.
Today, mrs Adina Kaplan is ourguest and I'm very excited to
hear from her.
She was a very good friend ofMiriam Holman and Miriam
eventually was named after herand today Adina runs the Israeli
branch of it.
So thank you so much for comingon, adina.
(01:15):
I really appreciate it.
Thank you for having me.
I guess we could start off withthe basics, like how you know
Miriam and what yourrelationship was like.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
So Miriam and I grew up together.
I think my mother, when we werelike two years old, used to
babysit both of us, like alongwith a group, and we did not get
along as kids, as very littlekids.
And Baruch Hashem, as we gotolder we, you know, found a very
, very special, uniquefriendship in each other.
So we've been friends sincewe're, since before I can
(01:46):
remember, you know, throughoutschool, elementary school, high
school and beyond.
My family's very close with theHolman family also.
So you know we're bonded in alot of ways.
But yeah, that's how I knowMiriam.
I know her as long as I knowmyself.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Wow, wow.
So you really go way, way back.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
So how old were you when Miriam got sick?
Speaker 3 (02:07):
So when we were 18, I was 18, she was 19, but it was
the seminary year and Miriamwent to Artist Rall for seminary
and I didn't.
I was in America and she gotsick around circus time, so it
was like October, november.
She came back in November,december and then spent, you
know, the rest of the year.
(02:27):
She joined a seminary in fivetowns and she got a job and she
was totally fully functioning asanyone Like.
People didn't even realize thatshe wasn't well because she
just came back and integratedinto life in America beautifully
.
So we were able to be backtogether again, you know, even
though she was anticipatingspending the year in Israel and
(02:48):
yeah.
So she was 19 when she got sickin seminary.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
So was this scary for you and for her?
I guess because her oldersister, necham Liba, also had
been sick and was niftar.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Very much so, very, very much so.
I think for anyone who knew theHolmans and who knew Miriam, it
was like it felt like a bigpunch in the stomach when she
got sick, but once, like theinitial shock wore off, people
didn't really know that she wassick.
People totally forgot shewasn't, she didn't look sick and
(03:21):
she didn't act sick.
Now, privately, in ourfriendship, I know for her it
was really really difficult.
It was really really difficultnot to compare herself to her
sister, not to you know, just interms of not being well, and to
you know, I remember having aconversation with her once where
I was telling her like Miriam,you're nothing like Nahama in
(03:42):
this way.
Like you have a differentdiagnosis, you have a different
prognosis.
Like everything's different.
You can't look at her outcome,which was obviously so, so, so
tragic, but you can't look atthat and kind of write yourself
off, give yourself a deathsentence because of that.
And she totally, totallyexcelled at not doing that and I
(04:03):
know that it was scary for her.
It wasn't something that wespoke about on the regular, but
it was definitely scary for herand it was definitely
challenging for her, verychallenging that we spoke about
more than like the scary part ofit.
But yeah, because she had, youknow, experienced the loss of
(04:24):
her older sister.
There was, for sure, thatelement there that made it extra
hard, extra scary for everyoneand obviously for for her as
well.
But it was a very differentstory.
Her sister was much youngerwhen she passed away and there
were so many things that were sodifferent about the story that,
like I really, when it came upin conversation with Miriam, I
really tried to remind her likedon't, don't use Nechama as like
(04:47):
baseline for what things aregoing to look like, cause you
have a different, totallydifferent life, totally
different DNA makeup.
Like you're, you're not, youdidn't, it's not going to be the
same.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
I saw a picture of her.
Her father sent me a picture,Miriam and her father together,
just like a beautiful picture,and I was like, oh my gosh,
she's so cute and she's sopretty and just so much like
like so full of life.
And I do I think about thatpicture a lot.
I'm like it makes no sense, itjust it just makes no sense.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
Yeah, you know what I am A lot of people and if
you're, if you're, if you'retalking about a picture that I'm
thinking of she probably wasactually quite ill in that at
that point already about apicture that.
I'm thinking of she probably wasactually quite ill in that at
that point already.
You know, I remember someonereached out to me like a little
bit after Miriam, maybe like ayear or two after seminary, and
(05:35):
she looks at she's like, by theway, what happened with Miriam?
Like I heard a rumor she wassick, but then like what
happened and I just like playedit off or whatever.
But for me that was like such areminder that like people
didn't know what was going on.
You know, I remember sitting inthe car with Miriam once and
she was telling me you know,obviously there was a lot of
unknown in her condition and herprognosis and her future, and
(05:56):
we were talking once aboutShidduchim.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
We're probably I don't know 1920.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
And she was saying how it's really hard for her
sometimes that people are justsuper, super insensitive, like
they don't realize that she has,you know, very special
circumstances.
That obviously doesn't meanthat you can't get married, but
it's her, her, her like roadmapwasn't looking the same as her
friends and you know, I told herI like almost blamed her.
I was like you know, you're themost functional, normal person.
(06:23):
I know Like if you looked sick,people would be much more
sensitive.
And she said that to me.
She's like I almost wish that Ihad an illness that people
could see and that would be areminder and then they would
know don't talk about certainthings in front of me, like it's
a very sensitive thing.
But she didn't.
And that was like obviouslycame with its challenges, the
fact that it was a silent, moreof a silent, illness.
On the other hand, she almostbordered on herself by just
(06:46):
being so normal and so herself,and so like you wouldn't know
that anything changed from whoshe was, where she was, that
people, even some of our goodfriends, like I think, just
forgot, had they realized whatwas going on, they obviously
would have been a lot moresensitive, but like there was no
reason to think she wasdifferent than any of us.
So the same way you'd fetchabout to a totally healthy
(07:07):
friend, you're fetching about itto her because in your head
she's totally healthy.
And that's just like oneconversation that that really
stood out to me because it justmade me realize that, like she's
doing a really good job livingher life, people don't realize
like I give her so much creditfor that, give her so much
credit for that.
And it's not just like she cameback.
(07:28):
She was.
She went to seminary, she wentto college.
She was.
She wanted to be a sonographer,like to do like ultrasounds and
stuff.
And so she was in college.
She was working two jobs.
Like she, she was doing a lotmore than the average person,
with a lot less energy and a lotyou know with, with her
situation looking a lotdifferent than most people's.
(07:49):
And when it came to going to asimcha, nowhere was too far.
She'd have no problem gettingin the car and driving to Muncie
, you know from Farakway, as ifit was around the corner.
She was the first one at thesimcha to be there, the last one
to leave and dancing the entiretime and dancing the entire
time.
So it's like she, she totallylived her life after she got
sick the way she lived it beforeshe got sick, which was just
(08:14):
being an all around amazing,amazing person, friend, daughter
, sister, like she just was thekind of person who you could
always, always rely on.
Anytime you needed something,she was the one who you didn't
even have to ask, like she wouldoffer.
She was so thoughtful and solike, anticipating other
people's needs and, and you know, especially with her family and
and she was so generous and Iremember, like you know, being
(08:34):
out with her we were muchyounger and we probably had $10
to our names, you know and wewere like shopping on central
Avenue and like she wanted tobuy gifts for her siblings 'm
like I'm not spending my lastten dollars on that, but she was
like she went so out of her wayalso to make like yontif
special for her siblings.
She would buy like cute propsand cute little tchotchkes to
put on the seder table, you know, to make a whole big deal out
(08:55):
of kris yamsoth and all thatkind of stuff and she like,
really that's the way she livedthe first 19 years of her life
and that's the way she lived thenext three years of her life,
like it almost didn't matter.
Like you know, she, she did areally, really good job of
continuing life and I don't know, I didn't know at the time what
her prognosis was and I don'tknow if she knew and I don't
(09:17):
know if there was a prognosis,but she was living her life as
if she'd lived forever.
You's, you know, just college,you know it's a few year
commitment jobs, like everythingthat she did she poured herself
100% into.
And I don't know whether or notshe knew that she was, you know
, kind of living on borrowedtime or not.
(09:37):
I certainly didn't to thatextent and we never spoke about
that.
But from the way she lived, youwould think she was planning
the next 100 years of her life.
And maybe she was because shereally, really believed that,
that she would get through it.
So now that I'm thinking aboutit, I'm like no, she actually
might have been planning thenext hundred years of her life,
(09:58):
fully believing that.
You know, that's just the typeof person she was that's just
the type of person she was Wow,wow.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
So as a 20 year old 21 year old girl, I guess how
did you handle the death of afriend?
It's not something that most 21year olds have to contend with.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
I like, looking back now, seven years later, I'm like
I don't know how that happened,like, what, like my when Miriam
was in the hospital, so shewent in on Rosh Hashanah Matzei
Rosh Hashanah, I'm sorry and shewas Niftar's the day before Tu
B'Shvat.
So she was there for a handfulof months and in those months I
happened to have been working inthe city, not far from the
(10:35):
hospital where she was, and Iwould go over all the time
before well, not before work,but after work and then I would
sleep at the chesed apartmentthat was a few blocks down and
and then go to work straight thenext day.
Like this chesed apartmentbecame my second home and I
wanted to spend as much timethere as I could and I was able
to because I was single andbecause I was local and I didn't
really have many commitments.
So it was like a very, veryspecial time that we were able
(10:57):
to spend together.
But for those few months,however long, it was like day,
whether or not I realized itrevolved around.
Miriam how she was doing.
The first text I sent in themorning was to her parents how
was Miriam's night?
The last text I sent to her,you know, before I went to sleep
, was you know, how was her day?
You know, originally it wasthat I was talking to Miriam
(11:20):
herself but, you know, oncethings got went a little bit
more downhill.
I was in touch more with herparents and my day just revolved
around it and it was like itwas.
It was.
I obviously wish thecircumstances were different,
but it was really really asclose to be able to spend that
time with her and to have thatspecial time with her and to to
just to see her, the way sheinteracted with everyone and the
(11:43):
way she she conducted herself,regardless of what she was going
through.
So I don't know, like thethought of now I was 20 at the
time and the thought of a 20year old going through that
seems so, so, like incredulous,like how is that even possible?
Um, and I honestly I don't know.
I don't know.
And I actually remember whenMiriam was first hospitalized, I
(12:05):
got a text from a veryrespected and valued person who
deals a lot with grief andsomeone who's you know after
Miriam died and helped mepersonally.
But she texted me oh, I heardyou know Miriam's in the
hospital just letting you knowI'm here for you, which was
really, really nice.
She knew I was a close friend.
But as soon as I saw that I waslike in my head I was like I
(12:33):
think she's dying Because, youknow, if, like the grief person
is reaching out to you to likesay how can I help you, it's
like, wow, this must be reallybad and I was just crying and
crying.
I'm like it must be worse thanI thought it was, you know.
But then after that, we werelike really able to.
You know, once I got over thatand I was able to move past that
(12:54):
like really intense fear, itwas really just like it was just
what you did, it's what you do.
Like it wasn't even like peoplelike like I am not a humble
person.
I'm just not like if I dosomething that deserves credit,
I have no problem taking creditfor it.
This wasn't something that, tome, like deserved credit.
Like I know that if, god forbid,the roles were reversed, she
(13:15):
would have done the same for metimes a thousand.
You know, like it wasn't even aquestion.
Like you're there for, for yourfriends, for your best friends,
for your sisters, like you'rethere for the people who you
love the most.
So it's not like a, it's not aquestion of like, can I make it
work?
It's like what do you mean?
Like?
This is her life right now.
So this is my life right now,and it was my life for a while,
and I put dating on hold for awhile because I didn't have the
(13:36):
head for it, and I put a lot ofthings on hold and I wouldn't
have done it any other way,because this is what you do for
the people that you love.
And and again, like, the factthat I was single and able to
have that time with her issomething that I really, really
thank Hashem for and I reallytreasure, because, you know, we
have other friends that might'vebeen really close with her in
(13:57):
high school but then they gotmarried right away.
So they kind of, you know, losttouch a little bit.
And then, when it came to whenMiriam was in the hospital for
those for those I don't knowfour months, you know they were
able to come like once, twice,maybe three times, but there's
only so much they could do,especially if they had kids, and
I really felt like Hashem putme in this opportunity where,
like I could do for her what shewould have done for me, a
(14:18):
fraction of it at least.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
It's very special because what I'm hearing is like
you.
Obviously very special becausewhat I'm hearing is like you.
Obviously you yourself have avery strong positive attribute
of being a good friend, but whatyou're saying is that like part
of what made you such a goodfriend is because of Miriam's
like me dose and the way, theway she was, that you know that
she would have done been likethat in a second.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
She would have done what I did, but so much more and
anticipated every single needbefore I even knew that I needed
it.
Like it's just I don't know thesame way, like like you would
do anything for your, for yourmother, for your father, for
your, for your sibling, for yourkid Like it's not a question,
it's not a favor, it's what youdo because you want to do it,
and that's exactly what it is.
(15:01):
So I don't know, like it's acrazy thing for a 20 year old to
go through.
And you know, recently, when Iheard about someone around that
age passing away and I wasthinking about our friends, I'm
like gosh, I don't know howthey're going through that.
Then I'm like you went throughthat.
But I mean, first of all, it'sdifferent when it's you.
And also, like Baruch Hashem, Ihad such such a good support
system of my family, the Holmansour friends are like my mentors
(15:25):
, like everyone was in it.
The entire community was in it.
Everyone was davening so, sohard and everyone was so
invested that it wasn't like itwas, like it was a huge hug from
everyone.
I didn't feel like I was doingit alone.
I felt like I had the supportsystem that I needed, you know,
and after she passed away, ourfriends group got even closer
(15:46):
and you know, we, we really tookcare of each other and we still
do.
And it's you know, seven yearslater, um, we miss her like
crazy and when something happens, your group of friends, yeah,
yeah, so we, we were gettingtogether every year on her yard
site.
It got a little bit harder whensome of us moved to um artis
trial, um, totally on our yardsite, especially from, like our,
(16:10):
our tight knit friend group.
Someone will usually send amessage or you know, if someone
was an artist Ellen visitedMiriam's cave air they'll
message us like, very much partof our lives, very much part of
my life, um, you know, very muchpart of our lives, very much
part of my life, you know,whatever like I said, it helped
that there were a lot, a lot ofpeople who loved her and cared
about her.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
What happened by your ?
Speaker 3 (16:35):
wedding.
That must have been hard foryou to be engaged and get
married without her.
It was, it was, it was reallyhard I remember, like telling my
husband, I'm like I just Ican't believe that, like you
never met her, like she's such abig part of my life she was
back then.
I got married like a year and ahalf after she passed away and
seven years later she still is ahuge part of my life and I.
It was really hard, it wasreally really painful.
And I had this bracelet, um,when I I don't know what it was,
(16:59):
but at some point like inbetween I don't know what it was
, but at some point, like inbetween, after she got sick in
seminary, I was in Israel and Iwent to the Hodaya store and I
bought her a bracelet that said,probably going to botch it up,
but it said I think it saidbasically it was like a play on
(17:20):
words, but in English it saidlike when the waters get tough,
that's when the strong peopleare revealed Kishav, mayim,
biskalim, hamaskalim, somethingI don't know.
And I gave it to her and aftershe passed away, her parents
gave me the bracelet back and Iand I wore it to my wedding and
it was like I felt, like Ireally I felt like she was there
and you know, just throughoutthe wedding, like she came up in
my mind multiple, multipletimes and I, my husband has,
(17:43):
since you know, we're marriedfive and a half years now and my
husband has said many, manytimes like I feel like I know
her, I totally feel like I knowher, and when it's around her
yard site and you know, orsomething comes up or whatever,
it is like he's really, reallysupportive and he feels like
this is he never met her, butthat's about it.
Like he, everything else wasdone and I know that like they
would have hit it off, theywould have you know, but that it
(18:08):
was a really, really painfulthing that someone who was such
a big part of my life is notgoing to meet someone who was
also such a big part of my life.
Right but you know, at the sametime, the fact, like I said, the
fact that I was able to spendall that time with her in the
hospital because I wasn'tmarried.
You know, I would take thatover, being married earlier so
(18:30):
that my husband could know her.
You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
I have a sister that was NIFTA and she also her
friends, like she had one friendalso that like quit her job so
that she could be there for mysister, like really, really
dedicated, very amazing.
And like I guess when I'mlistening to you talk I'm like,
okay, my sister was anexceptional person, I guess
Miriam also was and I guess shealso just has exceptional
(18:53):
friends and it's amazing thatyou keep her alive because it's
just it's the biggest nahama foryou, for the family, for
everyone.
I think it's just so likeamazing.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
I think also like part of part of and I don't know
if you're in touch with yoursister's friends or but part of
what also keeps her alive islike that.
I feel very, very fortunate tohave a very close relationship
with the Holmans and when I talkto Mrs Holman which I do quite
often I feel like I'm talking toMiriam and when she talks to me
she feels like, like we're,like we're back on her couch.
(19:24):
In high school she wasn't onthe couch, you know me, miriam
and like her mom was sittingthere.
So we're all schmoozing likeand and I feel so blessed to
have that relationship and tohave that connection, because
it's like it's just, it's huge,like it keeps me so, so
connected to to Miriam herself.
You know, besides the fact thatI love her family independently
(19:45):
, just you know, that reallymakes a difference.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Yeah, it does make a difference.
That really is very, veryspecial.
So let's talk about Mayrim.
I know that, like we said, herolder sister was Niftar Nahama
and they sort of the whole one'sa little bit started some sort
of Shabbaton, but Miriam, I know, is the one that really wanted
to like make it into a big thing.
So I guess if you could tell usa little bit about that, yeah,
sure.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
so the Holman started , I don't know, maybe 18 years
ago when, after Nahama passedaway, miriam was like eight
years old and they went to aretreat a a bereavement retreat
and they really like, they feltlike it was really, really
beneficial, but it bothered themthat it wasn't for kids, also
(20:30):
because they had, I guess, three, I think three, other kids at
the time, ranging, you know,from ages, I guess, nine to
little kids.
But they saw that like thereneeds to be support for the kids
themselves.
So the Holman started maybe 18years ago.
I'm not sure.
A retreat every year in CampSimcha where families would come
(20:53):
together and they had abeautiful retreat.
It was for parents and kids.
It was for families that lost achild.
Sorry, I should clarify, butthe entire family was invited.
It wasn't like just for theparents.
It was very, very muchrecognized that child loss
affects every person in thefamily.
So there were things forsiblings, things for parents and
everything.
As we got older, Miriam becamemore and more instrumental in
(21:13):
running these Shabbatones, so itdidn't have an official name.
It was the Holman Retreat, theBereavement Retreat, and when we
were like in high school,miriam basically took over the
Shabbatons running them with herfather.
And you know, when we were in12th grade, a bunch of or 11th
grade, a bunch of friends wentupstate for the Shabbaton to
babysit.
You know, like Miriam like gother friends into it.
I didn't go that year, I wentlater on, but it was something
(21:36):
that Miriam was very, verypassionate about and she had
started.
She especially as she got oldershe became kind of like uh,
miriam was right under hersister right no, there's,
there's a boy in between sothere was no hum up.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
So how old was miriam when, when her sister was
nifter?
Speaker 3 (21:51):
so nakama was a few days away from her 11th birthday
.
Miriam was, I guess, eight ornine, so gotta put the brothers
somewhere in between, okay buttotally old enough to remember
her and yeah, yeah, yeah, verymuch so, very, very much so
miriam was also like she kepther entire life a very, very
strong connection with nahama,and I don't even know the half
(22:11):
of it, but I I do know that likeevery year on her yard site she
would get people to finishsafer to hill, and like it meant
a lot to her.
She, she really she felt theloss of her sister and she felt
her sister with her.
You know there were pictures inher room of nahum and miriam
together, so so, yeah, so miriamended up really like taking
over and she became kind of likea lifeline for girls, teenagers
that lost a sibling, and she afew times she made some sort of
(22:36):
like support group, unofficial,and you know she was in brooklyn
, so she met up with a bunch ofgirls.
They went out to eat for dinnerand they, you know, she was
just Brooklyn.
So she met up with a bunch ofgirls.
They went out to eat for dinnerand they, you know, she was
just the unofficial, like leaderof the group and so it's like
slowly became not just theShabbaton but like, very, very
minimally, miriam was doing, youknow, some things on the side,
but but then Miriam and herfather had plans to make it into
(22:59):
like a real year round programand they met with someone from
an organization and they really,like, had stuff in the works
and ideas to make it happen.
This was in the summer and thenMiriam was hospitalized.
So it was very shortly afterbefore they had a chance to
actually implement anything andMiriam from the hospital was
still working on it Like shewanted to.
(23:20):
You know they had to tell herlike now's not the time, like
put it down, you know, but thiswas something that she was so
passionate about.
So after she passed away it waslike a no brainer what her
family was going to do.
You know, leilo and Ishmasa.
So they took their annualretreat that they had been doing
for over probably 11 years andthey turned it into a year round
(23:45):
program, including the retreat,but also year round, and they
called it May Rim, which meansto lift people up, and it's a
play on words.
The same letters as Miriam andthey started this incredible,
incredible program in America,you know, in five towns in
Brooklyn and Lakewood and Muncie, supporting families year round
(24:05):
, with different events anddifferent support groups and of
course, the main highlight isthe annual retreat.
So the last year that Miriam didthe retreat, I actually went on
it with Miriam and with anotherfriend, like we just went to
help out, and it was reallyamazing to see Miriam in action
and to see the way she connectedto everyone and the way she
(24:26):
helped people and the way thatshe was like so geschickt and so
just made everything happen.
This was like really like herbaby.
And so when her family startedMayrim, I got involved in Mayrim
in America and whatever way Icould and the first retreat I
was that they did after Miriampassed away, I was married, my
husband and I went to help outand it's something that I was
(24:46):
very, very, um, like emotionallydedicated to.
Then I moved to Israel aboutthree and a half years ago and
three years ago, by Miriam'syard site, I was talking to um a
really close friend, nataraBlock, who was also a really
close friend of Miriam'sthroughout high school and
beyond, and I was saying, youknow, like Miriam's yardstick's
(25:10):
coming up, like what can we do?
And she said she's like this isgoing to sound crazy, but what
if we made like an event forbereaved people I don't know who
yet, but like someone kind ofdo like a May Room event here, a
one-time thing?
I was like, okay, one-timething we could do, so we decided
that like doing an event forbereaved moms was like really
scary.
We were, like, you know, 22years old and didn't feel like
we had it.
We had what it took.
So we said we're going to dofor bereaved siblings Plus, like
(25:30):
that was Miriam's, like she wasa bereaved sibling.
So we put together some plansand we spread the word and made
a flyer and we made a paintnight for girls and women that
lost a sibling, a brother orsister, and we did it in Ramada
Skol and we had between like 20,25 girls came and the family
(25:52):
served, like you know, a nicespread and the feedback was
absolutely like it was insane.
People were like so blown away.
You know, there were girls inseminary that came, so they
don't necessarily have communityhere, they're not near family.
There were young Americans whocame who don't, who are not in
your family, you know, so that'sreally difficult.
(26:12):
And then there were also, likeAmerican Israelis who came who
like don't exactly necessarilyfit into the Israeli system, but
they still need that supportand we didn't even realize that
like there was really such aneed.
They still need that supportand we didn't even realize that
like there was really such aneed.
So we, um, when we wereadvertising for that first event
, someone reached out to me andsaid hi, do you also do events
for moms?
And I'm like we don't like doevents.
We're doing one eventno-transcript.
(26:46):
They must have been like sohappy they were, like, they were
so into it, so happy I mean, wecouldn't have done it without
them, first of all because it'stheir organization, also because
they fund the whole thing.
They were, like, you know, whenthe first mom's event we we
showed like a slideshow ofMiriam, you know, and I spoke a
little bit just to introducepeople to the concept and again
(27:08):
the feedback was overwhelming,like, like again, we didn't know
that it was such a void.
We just decided, like, let's dosomething, you know, because
her yard site's coming up, let'sdo a one-time event and see
what happens.
And see what happens.
And then what happened is isthat, you know, we've had three
years now of running eventsthroughout the year, for we do
different types of events.
So we do events for girls andwomen that lost a sibling that's
(27:30):
usually like teenage, seminaryage and above, and then we do
events for moms that lost achild.
And then when Mr Holman is intown, which is fairly often, we
try, when we can, to make anevent for couples, because
obviously the fathers also needa lot of support.
But that's not something that Ican coordinate, you know, by
the moms and the siblings.
(27:51):
Events like Atara and I werethere, we're we're facilitating
it and we can't do that for thefathers.
So a bunch of times when MrHolman's come, we've done like a
couple's event and it's been.
It's been phenomenal, it's beenphenomenal.
And now we have people askingus if we can do events for
younger children, if we can makeevents kind of like, segment
them by like what kind of lossor how old the child was, you
(28:13):
know, and we're always open tonew ideas, but at this point we
have a database of probably over70 women who lost children, all
English speaking and the.
It's like it's such a stress forTara and I to be able to do it
Instantly the impact that you'remaking on people's lives and
how much you're helping them.
And so many people haveexpressed to us how special it
(28:34):
is just to come out for a nightand feel pampered.
And there are some people whowant to come out and they want
to talk.
There's some people who want tocome out and they don't want to
talk and they don't talk.
I mean, they talk but not abouttheir loss.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Right.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
But they all, like unanimously, express the same
sentiment that just being in thesame room with people who they
know have gone through you know,that loss, the siblings say
this, the mothers say this, thefather, everyone says this is so
powerful in and of itself, isso powerful in and of itself.
And we're not there to be asupport group.
And you know, obviously thereare friendships that have been
(29:05):
made through these events thatare amazing.
Amazing that they've reallybecome, you know, like each
other's anchor.
But most of our events are goodfood, a fun activity or like a
cathartic activity.
So it'll be like we do a lot ofart stuff, We'll do a food
competition, whatever it is.
You know, at Sarsimetshiva wehad a speaker, so that was like
a little bit more intense, buteven that the feedback was just
(29:27):
amazing.
People just love coming out andhaving the space, if they want
to, to talk and if they don'twant to, not to talk but to know
that they're with people whohave been through what they've
been through in their own way.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
This week you had?
Didn't you have an event thisweek for those that lost their
children were soldiers, oursoldiers.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
No, we didn't have that, did we?
Did?
I mean, obviously,unfortunately, there's a lot
more bereaved families now inIsrael in the past year plus,
and I actually spoke with a fewsoldiers, moms who when I told
them about Mayrim, they werelike really, really into it and
they were like this soundsamazing, this sounds like
something I can really benefitfrom.
I spoke with them more recentlyand then the event that came up
(30:08):
, the Hanukkah event.
Just timing wise, it didn'twork out for a few people, but I
can see in the futureattracting, you know, and if the
group is big enough, then we'relike we would do an event for,
exclusively for mothers who lostsoldiers, or mothers who lost
babies.
And that's what one of thepeople at our last event came up
to us and said like you know,she loves the events and they do
(30:28):
so much for her.
And she asked, like would yoube interested in making events
for people who, let's say, lostlike little little children?
Because obviously it's adifferent experience losing a
baby than losing an adult child.
And she, you know, and we toldher that that's something that
we're totally open to.
And she, you know, and we toldher that that's something that
we're totally open to, and wehave people that come from not
just Yerushalayim I mean, ourevents are in Yerushalayim,
because that's where Tara and Iare and that's most central but
(30:49):
we have people who are comingfrom Moshe Avin.
We have people who came fromB'nai Rock.
We had a couple who came fromTzvat, for one of you know, our
first couples event Like this is, and they made a vacation out
of it.
You know they, they made ittheir getaway, but it was around
this and and it's, you know,there's really we've learned
that there's really really aneed for Americans in Israel and
(31:12):
American Israelis to have thatkind of support and you know,
just, the Israeli culture isdifferent than the American one,
so the grief culture is goingto look different as well,
obviously and for people to beable to come together with
people who speak their language,literally and figuratively,
it's just proven to be like,really, really priceless.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
So you must be pretty amazing.
How do you like a young, ayoung girl I could call you that
because you're pretty young,whatever you want, not as really
.
And yet, like all thesebereaved siblings and parents,
mothers, they feel comfortablewith you, so how do you do that?
Speaker 3 (31:54):
So I want to just preface by saying it's not just
me, it's me and Atara.
Like Atara is absolutelyamazing.
She's not the one on the call,so, which is why I can say this
she's incredible, is absolutelyamazing.
She's not the one on the call,so, which is why I can say this,
she's incredible.
She happens to be a socialworker herself with a lot of
experience in grief.
So she's like you know, if,like something comes up, she's
always like, yeah, tara, likeget involved.
You know, but the women are so,so appreciative.
(32:16):
You know, like I said, when wewere, when Tara first had the
idea let's make an event, wewere like, oh, we can't go near
bereaved moms, like that'sterrifying, you know.
Like they don't want these.
Like you know, little 22 yearold fishers Like, yeah, they do,
they do because people willtake support from wherever they
can get it.
And it's been such a big lessonfor me like that.
And I've become close with a lotof the moms and when I see them
(32:37):
at the events, we hug eachother and we're so excited.
And after I had my baby, theygot so excited.
I got so many miles.
I was like they, they feltinvested because I'm someone who
they appreciate and Iappreciate them.
And it's just, you become closewith people because they end up
sharing their experiences andthe fact that you know Baruch
(32:57):
Hashem Atara and I have not beenin that place it's not a
deterrent, like at the events.
You know, we, we set upeverything and then we'll
usually step aside.
We don't want to be in anyone'sspace.
A lot of times the moms willinvite us.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
Hey, why don't you come do the?
Speaker 3 (33:09):
project with us and, yeah, I have no problem sitting
with them and I'll usuallyschmooze with them, but at the
same time, we're very cognizantof the fact that, like, some
people only feel comfortabletalking to people who have
experienced and my job is tofacilitate that, not to be there
.
So, if that means sitting inthe kitchen while everyone's in
the dining room, amazing.
If there's an issue, they knowwhere to find me.
You know like, and it's hard,also like it's not.
(33:31):
I think that.
And also you meet people andyou see that behind every big
name and big face and whateveris, is a person who's suffering
a lot and who's really, reallygrateful to receive support.
And there are so many peoplewho have come to events who,
like I, had heard their storiesfrom news, from friends, from
whatever.
And then you meet them andyou're like, oh my gosh, like
that's them.
And it's like what that's themLike and they're really
(33:53):
suffering and to be able to be.
You know, the we have.
It's very interesting becausethe Holmans have a rule on their
retreat.
They typically don't letfamilies who like experienced
the loss within the year comeand they have their reasons and
they're all really good reasons.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
They also don't let anyone speak.
That didn't lose a child,correct, correct.
It's amazing what you're doing,yeah yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
So we have events where women lost their children
over 20 years ago.
And we also had an event oncewhere the women were going
around and they were each sayinglike their name and sharing
some information and one of thewomen had, like, just passed her
daughter, shloshim, and it waslike it was so shocking because
I didn't think that people atthat stage would even be, but
people are really, reallythirsty for that.
(34:40):
I had someone reach out to me.
I had just landed, after beingin America for Pesach.
I landed in Israel and I got acall from an unknown number.
So I answered it and it was alady who had just lost her son,
I think Rosh Chodesh's son andshe said I heard about this
organization, I want to getinvolved and I'm like you sure
you want to get involved.
She's like, yeah, I really wantto get involved and she's been
(35:01):
to every event since and thefeedback that she gives she's
like you don't understand whatyou're doing for me and she came
so soon after she lost her son.
At the end of the day, like thisis they become part of this
really, really dreadfulcommunity that no one can ever
fathom being a part of, and tobe able to give them that
(35:23):
support.
It's not.
You know, I talk to Mrs Ullmanusually after every event and
I'll just tell her how it went.
She looks like thank you somuch, thank you so much.
I'm like you don't have tothank me.
Like this gives me so much.
Sipa Kanepesh and I know Attarafeels the same way and it's like
it's instant gratification.
(35:49):
It's like you see, as you'redoing the event, you see the
women walk in and go, like yousee it, and you see them leaving
feeling different, feelinguplifted, feeling empowered,
feeling good, feeling understood, and it's like it's a no
brainer.
And when Atara and I do eventsor planning the activity, we're
always thinking about like whatwould Miriam have done?
And after every, mrs Ullmancould tell you, probably after
almost every event that we'vedone, and I spoke to her.
I said like Miriam was there,like she would have done this,
down to the T, down to this typeof sushi, this type of activity
, this type of tablecloth likethis is exactly what she would
(36:13):
have done and I know she wouldhave and had she had the
opportunity to be able to dothis for people you know
siblings, for moms, for anyone,she did what she was able to and
then she had really big plansthat unfortunately couldn't come
into fruition and to and thenshe had really big plans that
unfortunately couldn't come intofruition and everything we do
it's like exactly the way thatMiriam would have wanted it and
it's really really special forus as friends to still have that
(36:34):
connection with her also.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
In that way, I think again, it like attests to her
character that she has suchwonderful friends and such
wonderful family.
That's for sure, that's forsure.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
For sure.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
I just finished I mean whatever it's in the final
stages of editing.
I hope you know a book forbereaved parents, right, I did
it together with you know, glennHolman.
But I spoke to so many peopleand there were some people and
especially in Eretz Israel,there was a few people in Eretz
Israel a big favor by opening up.
I felt like like I was doingthem the favor.
(37:09):
I would ask one simple question, whatever, and they would go on
for on and on and on and on.
Or if it was through emails,like you think, who wants to
type so much?
But these long emails back andI was like, oh my gosh, like
there's so many people thatreally need to talk and like
they're just not finding theright people to talk to.
So I I really get what you'resaying, that mothers, you know,
really need it.
Speaker 3 (37:27):
It's so true.
And listen, I know for myself Ican't speak for a Tara, but you
know it can be very emotionallydraining, especially as Tara
and I are both mothers ourselvesand when we do the mom's events
there have been so many timeswhere I'll just walk into the
next room just tears streamingdown my face.
And it's so hard to be in aroom with so many people who are
(37:47):
in so much pain and it's notlike like these are.
A lot of them are very happypeople.
You wouldn't know that they'rein so much pain, but because we
do know them and because they'rethere that night we know that
they're there for a reason.
And when I look around at a roomof 20 women and I'm like
they've all gone through this,Like it, it, it's hurt so, so
much.
But then you think about, youknow, like I can't take away
(38:08):
their pain and I we can't changeanything about what happened.
But if we can be a little bitof light, you know, we had a
girl come to one of our siblingsevents once and she walked in
and she was like, oh my gosh,I've never felt like this before
.
She didn't even know anyone atthe event, she just walked in.
I think for some of these girlsprobably, it's like they know
that no one's going to be at theevent.
Asking them, how many siblingsdo you have?
(38:28):
And they have to like, grapple,what number are you in your
family?
You know any of these thingsthat are so normal to come up in
day-to-day conversation.
But people who have gone throughthis type of loss, I mean, as
you know, are so much moresensitive to so people walk in
and they feel like I have acommunity and it's just, it's
unbelievable and it'semotionally draining, but it's
unbelievable and it's, it's aschuss, it really, really is.
(38:50):
It gives me a lot, a lot ofSipa Kanephesh.
It keeps me connected to Miriam, to the Holmans, to the
bereaved community that I wasvery, very minimally connected
with before Miriam died.
I helped her a little bit withthe retreat that last year, but
that was pretty much it.
Also, I will never claim tounderstand the pain that a
(39:10):
bereaved sibling goes through,because I didn't lose a sibling,
I lost a best friend.
She was like a sister to me,Definitely, you know.
I so to be able to give to thatcommunity that again.
Thank God I'm not a part of butI feel distant cousins with
because they're definitely, youknow, I experienced the loss of
(39:30):
someone really, really close tome.
It's something amazing and I'mgrateful that Atara came up with
the idea to even do this,because I never would have.
And Baruch Hashem has reallysnowballed into something so
much bigger than we could haveimagined at the time and it's
something that we intend to keepon, keep on continuing, because
the need is really, reallythere and the feedback, you know
(39:56):
saying that, that you're not ahumble person, but I think that
after this past 45 minutes, Ihave to disagree with you
because, if you wouldn't, be,humble, you wouldn't be able to
connect to all these people.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
The people would feel a certain sense of like you
just don't get me.
And yet the fact that you couldreally understand that you
don't understand and you couldbe sensitive enough, even though
knowing that you really can'tknow, I think is, in a certain
sense, a simple humbleness, andI think that's why you're so
successful.
Speaker 3 (40:25):
Right, and you know we try to, just, like I said, do
our thing and stay in the inthe background.
And you know, I went to one ofthe women who, like I became
close with.
It was her son's like secondyard site and they made an event
at their house and I went andshe was so appreciative to see
me and I felt like what do youmean?
Like I know you, like I'mconnected to you, I'm like such
a in such a personal way, likeof course I'm going to be there
(40:46):
and again, like we know ourplace.
But at the same time, peopleare much less snobby than you
think they are.
Most people are not superexclusive.
If you're doing something forthem and if they see that you're
genuine and that you reallycare, the fact that you've never
been through that loss isalmost like secondary, as long
as you don't pretend that youhave been.
And you know, try, you knowthey.
(41:07):
Sometimes the women will likejoke about all the like crazy
things that people have said tothem over Shiva.
You know, and sometimes peoplewill come into a Shiva house
just from what I've overheardfrom these ladies and like try
to like insert themselves, likeconnect it, like I know how you
feel because I lost it's like no, no-transcript, really really
(41:55):
need it and it's just so painfulto see.
But knowing that you can doeven a little something to
alleviate the pain is alreadylike forget an ahamah them, like
it's an ahama to me.
It really is almost like afavor to me, which is why, when
the hormones are like thank youso much, thank you I'm like this
was like this was kind ofselfish, also Like this is just
as much for me as it is foranyone else.
So this is great, you know,it's a win-win for everyone.
Speaker 2 (42:17):
Wow, Okay, Unbelievable.
Really, it's amazing.
I guess, I don't know.
I like we.
Before we end off, is thereanything um anything important,
any messages that we should endoff with?
Speaker 3 (42:31):
I think that you know there's two things there's the
being a very close friend ofsomeone who passed away, and
then there's the being in theposition where you know Baruch
Hashem I'm co-running the Meronbranch in Israel.
In terms of like losing a closefriend, I think that people
like don't always recognize justhow painful it is, and not even
(42:52):
for me, because for me, like Ihad a coveted place in Merim's
life and people knew that and Iwas there the entire Shabbat.
I happened to have, like yousaid, your sister's friend quit
her job.
I happened to have been like Iquit my job and then I was in
between jobs.
It like it worked out reallywell, but I was there the whole
time and people recognized me,whereas other ones of our
friends, who maybe got marriedright away or drifted apart a
(43:13):
little bit, they were in so muchpain but people didn't realize
that they even had that closerelationship to Miriam.
And I think that, like you know, when, when people go through
loss, even girls that we weren't, who weren't particularly
friends with Miriam in highschool you know we were a small
grade of 30, but we weren't allbest friends Miriam happened to
have been exceptionally nice toeveryone, but when we would make
(43:35):
the yard site events, like themost random people would come
because at the end of the day,like everyone is affected, it
hits really really close to home.
And when I hear about someone,lowly new, passing away now and
I think about their friends,like I try to reach out to their
friends and say like, first ofall, I'm really sorry, that
stinks, and especially if it's avery close friend, like they
(43:56):
don't get, they don't sit, shiva, they don't, they don't go
through that whole mourningprocess and they're not
necessarily recognized.
So I just feel like you know,it's a really, really unique and
horrible experience to lose afriend, especially a really,
really close friend who's morelike a sister and just I know
how much it was appreciated tome when people actually
recognized it and reached out tome, even though I wasn't the
one sitting Shiva.
You know that's the being afriend part.
(44:18):
And then, in terms of runningMayrim, like there's so much you
can do for community, whetheryou're part of it or not.
Like there's so much you can dofor community, whether you're
part of it or not.
And when there's a need, people, just when someone steps in,
they are forever, forevergrateful.
And again like even if it seemslike an intimidating audience,
and not like people that you,you know normally interact with
(44:40):
willingly, because I'm 20 yearsyounger and I don't have
anything to say.
You know you'd be people wouldbe surprised at how appreciated
it really is and and I, like Isaid, I really really feel
grateful that a tower came upwith the, with the idea, and
that the Holman's fund may rim,and that, you know, we obviously
couldn't do it without them.
The fact that these women allcome to our events free and
(45:01):
there's a sushi bar and there'ssalads and there's soup and and
they come and, like I said, theyjust feel pampered and without
paying a penny, so it's justreally really amazing what the
Holmans have done with theirpain.
And I know, like I said, whenwe do our May Rim events, it's
always like wow, mary would haveloved this.
And that's how it is with thewhole May Rim that they they're
(45:22):
doing amazing, amazing things inAmerica, you know, in all
different communities and theirShabbatotas and their support
groups and their meetups andtheir Rosh Chodesh for all
different ages.
And I just I think it's amazingthat Miriam was able to leave
behind a legacy that was soclear on what she was passionate
about, that it wasn't like dowe do this, do we do that it was
(45:42):
like no, we haven't evenstarted this, we're going to
continue it and that's exactlywhat we're doing.
I appreciate you giving me theopportunity to, you know, go on
to the podcast and share.
It's very cathartic.
Speaker 2 (45:54):
It's really, really amazing and I really like I so
much relate to what you'resaying Because even though, like
you know, like I lost a brother, a sister, I lost my both my
parents when they were young,like I went through plenty of
loss and then I was married andwith you know, young children
and whatever and are not youngchildren, and I lost friends,
two friends, and like when thefirst one was left, I was like
one second.
(46:14):
I don't have a place over here.
I never really knew her family,I never really knew her
children.
So it was just like, oh my gosh, like I'm lost.
I don't know how to grieve afriend.
How do I grieve a friend?
It's so much easier to grievewhen you're in it.
It might be more painful, butit's also easier.
And losing those friends andyou know what, till today, I
just kind of like I just shutmyself down.
(46:35):
I'm like I can't, I don't knowwhat to do with the pain.
Speaker 3 (46:39):
So just like turn it off because, because my family's
so close with the Holmans and Iwas so close with Miriam, like
I will forever, forever beconnected to them and for me,
like that was such a, I feltlike I had a place.
Even though it wasn't thatplace, I had a place and that's
why I really felt like more,like I had it easier in that way
(47:00):
than other ones of my friendswho really didn't have a place.
Maybe they didn't have such a.
They were very close to her butreally didn't have a place.
Maybe they didn't have such a.
They were very close to her butthey didn't have a checklist to
her family.
So then it's like awkward.
It's like do we stay?
Do they want to hear from youor is it more painful?
You know we have, we, miriam,had a had a very close friend in
high school who named herdaughter after Miriam.
I know that was like very, veryum, that was very, very
meaningful for the Holmans.
But I remember after Miriam died, mrs Holman said to me she's
(47:22):
like I can't imagine what you'regoing through losing a friend.
I'm like are you insane?
What are you saying?
Like what?
Because she had gone throughthis crazy, crazy loss.
But, like you're saying, whenthere's no clear place and
there's no clear process, youknow it's just very uncharted
territory.
And the fact that you had thosecrazy close experiences and
(47:46):
then lost two friends, it's likewhere do you put yourself?
And again, I feel blessed thatI knew where to put myself,
because I always felt like I hada place in the Holman family
and I still do, and I considerMrs Holman a second mother.
She considers me anotherdaughter.
You know, like, so I never hadthat awkward stage of like, do I
keep in touch?
Do I send her my VARDinvitation?
It was like, yeah, I wanted herto meet my husband before we
(48:08):
got engaged.
You know I needed her stamp ofapproval, you know, so, like
it's a different experience, butit's it's.
It's a very unique experiencesand and I kind of regret not
keeping more of a study journalback in that time where I can
look back and be like, wow, howdid we go through that?
Because now time like likeblunts the edges a little bit
(48:28):
and blurs it and and but, but bydoing things and by staying
connected to the family, I feellike we really keep things alive
.
And I don't know if yourfriends were from like high
school or whatever.
But I found that like even justgetting together with a few
friends.
And you know, last year umPesach time um Atara and I and
another friend who live inIsrael, who was also really
close friends with Miriam, wentback for Pesach and we got
(48:50):
together with our whole chavrabasically it was like 10 people
and I was like I was reallyfeeling Miriam's loss there.
You know, when we were drivingthere, listening to music and
like we all left our kids athome, it was just like we had a
ton of fun.
And when we got there I saidlike something felt like it was
missing.
I said like, guys, can we atleast like, maybe when we make
brahas let's just do a like.
And her loss was really, reallyfelt there, and not just for me
(49:10):
, from everyone who was there,even from people who didn't
necessarily keep up with her somuch.
It's just, it's not the same,but we all had that experience
of losing a friend, so we allhave that connection and we'll
be a closer grade because ofthat than we would have been had
we not been bonded by, you know, a really, really tragic loss
of one of the most popular,beloved people in the grade.
Speaker 2 (49:33):
Well, it's amazing.
Thank you so, so much.
I you know, Harnashe, I'm goingto continue to have an Aaliyah.
She must be having a lot ofAaliyahs from everything that
everyone is doing and thank you,thank you.
Speaker 1 (49:43):
Everyone is doing and thank you, thank you, thank you
so so much appreciate it you'vejust listened to an episode of
the relief from grief podcastwith miriam riviet, brought to
you by mayrim.
For more episodes, visit themayrim website at wwwmayrimorg.
Help us reach more people whomight benefit from this podcast.
If you know someone who couldfind it helpful, please share it
(50:06):
with them.
If you have questions orcomments for the speaker, or if
you'd like to suggest a guestfor the podcast, we'd love to
hear from you.
Email us atrelieffromgriefatmayrimorg.
We look forward to having youjoin us in the next episode.
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