May 7, 2025 • 50 mins
Mrs. Chanie Delman is an exceptionally sympathetic person, deeply attuned to the pain of losing a baby who was born incompatible with life. She understands how a parent may struggle with this loss — not only with their own grief but also with the conflicting messages they may receive from family, friends, and even their own inner voices telling them, "It isn’t so bad."
Mrs. Delman, who has worked with hundreds of women and couples facing this kind of loss, gently encourages parents with messages of validation and support. In this podcast, she shares important guidance on how to explain your needs to your spouse, how to seek support from family members and friends, and how to avoid being so hard on yourself after experiencing such a devastating loss.
Chanie also speaks about the difference between pity and empathy — how most people long for empathy but deeply resent pity. She helps us understand how to become vessels of genuine empathy, showing real, heartfelt care for those going through such a difficult time.
But perhaps the most powerful lesson is Chanie herself — a living example of compassion and understanding for those who have endured the heartbreaking loss of a stillborn or a baby who lived only a few minutes.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the Relief from Grief podcast, hosted by
Mrs Miriam Rebiet and brought toyou by Merim.
Merim is an organizationdedicated to supporting families
who have experienced the lossof a child.
It was founded by IloyNishmat's, nechama Liba and
Miriam Holman.
Despite her illness, miriamdevoted herself to addressing
(00:22):
the needs of parents andsiblings grappling with the
immense pain of losing a child.
She felt this loss deeply,having experienced it firsthand
when her older sister, nechamaLiba, passed away.
Mehrim continues to uplift andexpand on the work Miriam began,
a mission carried forward byher parents with great
dedication.
(00:43):
If you have any questions orcomments for the speaker, or if
you'd like to suggest a guestfor the podcast, please email us
at relieffromgrief at mayrimorg.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Hi everybody.
Thank you so much for joiningus here today on the Relief from
Grief by Mayrim podcast.
So today I'm so happy that MrsHani Delman agreed to come on.
Hani is a licensed clinicalsocial worker and she
facilitates a lot of infancyloss groups and she's also done
work together with the Holmansfor Mayrim.
(01:18):
So thank you so much for comingon.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm listening to a lot ofyou're bringing so much to the
opening to the grief andbereavement worlds.
Like the things like no one'stalking about.
Like podcast after podcast,you're talking about it.
It's really beautiful.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
It was very funny.
I have to just share the storynow that you talk about that I
went to.
I had a doctor's appointmentyesterday and she said to me
something about if I ever hadany genetic testing or anyone in
my family, because I wentthrough a lot of loss in my own
family.
And I said to her somethinglike no, genetically I'm sure
I'm fine, because if I wouldn'tbe, I would be dead by now.
(01:58):
She's like what?
I was like yeah, I would bedead.
She's like okay, why is yourfamily dead?
I'm like kind of I would bedead.
She was like okay, why is yourfamily dead?
I'm like kind of that's me.
We were morbid humor.
She was looking at me and I waslike and then I whatever?
Told her all the losses that Iwent through.
But then she was asking me whatI do and I do like different
things.
I was like thinking what shouldI say?
I was like okay, the podcastmakes the most sense.
(02:18):
She thinks I'm crazy.
Let me at least tell her that,at least out of my story.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
So I just thought that was funny, but anyways,
okay.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
So can you tell us a little bit about, I guess, what
you do, who you treat?
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Sure, sure.
So yeah, I'm a licensedclinical social worker and I'm
most of my specialty isreproductive and maternal mental
health, and so I really focuson infertility at any range.
So I really focus oninfertility at any range.
I focus on miscarriage andinfancy loss.
I focus on loss at any pointand postpartum mood disorders I
(02:56):
treat, and then I dabble inthose struggling with their
spouses that are going throughaddictions.
So the spouse that's husband orwife is struggling with their
spouses that are going throughaddictions.
So the spouse that's husband orwife is struggling with
addiction.
It's kind of a sidebar.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Wow, yeah, that's like very different.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
You know over the years in practice, like there's
an ebb and flow to what you kindof hone in on.
So, I also facilitate.
I volunteer for an organizationcalled Canafiant, which
supports infancy and pregnancylosses, and I facilitate their
(03:37):
monthly group for mommies whohave lost their babies, infants
that have lived at any point,mommies who have lost their
babies, infants that have livedat any point.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
So what does that mean?
Any point, like I'll tell youwhen I was working on this book
right, that's hopefully going tocome out soon.
It's time for parents that lostchildren.
So I was very especially afterspeaking to like Devorah Enten
and Malky Klerstenfeld, fromKind of Fine, I was like, okay,
so a child is really countedfrom like, uh, a stillborn which
is like the sixth month orsomething like that, and I
(04:09):
didn't think that would go intothe book and it kind of did,
because it kind of wentnaturally with, like you know,
stillborns and and you knowwhatever, and babies that die
you know right away.
And then, um, okay, sorry, Ididn't mean to sound so callous,
um, I didn't mean to say in thea callous way, I know it's very
painful, but then when I wasgoing over it with Mr Holman and
he was like there's still justa difference.
(04:31):
This book is for children thatlived, even if it's for two
minutes.
So I switched it and I did makeit like that was the starting
point.
So I'm just curious what youhave to say about what that
means.
You know, as far as a childlosing a baby that lives, like.
Is that true?
Like two minutes, two hours orthree weeks, like it's the same
kind of pain?
Speaker 3 (04:52):
So on our call I always kind of put that out
there because it's a call, so noone's really sure who else is
on I'll say this call is andthis call actually developed
from it's where we many, manyyears of calls that everyone was
on the same call and at acertain point I think actually
one of the women said to Malke,we need our own call, we've lost
(05:14):
babies, they've just hadmiscarriages or stillbirths.
So I would say it's not for meto differentiate, I stay where
the client's at.
So someone who I'm counselingand supporting through a
stillbirth, I have to stay withthat on how they are still and
they were carrying their babyand lost their baby.
(05:35):
So I really try to stay wheremy client is at.
So if someone's coming inhaving experienced a stillbirth,
I have to hold that space forthem and counsel them through
that.
And someone who's coming in andon our call, it really starts
from a woman who has given birthto a baby that's lived from
(05:58):
seconds even.
You know, like you kind of saidminutes, I'll say seconds even.
Wow, he has lived to and I'llsay it minutes, hours, days,
weeks, months, right, and amother is a mother.
So there probably are nuances,you know there probably are
differences, but for the personwho's experienced it, I just
(06:21):
stay with that.
I just stay with them.
It hasn't come up that much onour call that that will become a
.
Well, mine was only minutes.
You know stillbirths aredifferent but again, the pain,
the grief that they'reexperiencing has to be given
space for and room to hold aswell in process.
(06:43):
So I'll let Glenn take leadthere.
Yeah, yeah, and you'll hearthat.
You know, you'll hear thatpiece of like someone who has
experienced a baby that's livedwill say that, well, my baby
lived.
Someone who's experienced astillbirth will say, well, I
still had a baby.
So it's kind of like, okay,we'll just stay where they're at
(07:07):
.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Right, right, and I think that one important part of
this podcast is for mothers tounderstand that they're like not
to judge themselves for theirpain because their baby didn't
live, or their baby only livedfor two minutes, like it's all
so normal and so painful andthat needs to really be
validated.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
And what's beautiful about this podcast giving space
for it and then like the call Ido and other supports is that
they then have the space rightwhen maybe someone else is like
can't give them that space orcan't really understand, oh, it
only lived a little bit.
Like there is that piece outthere.
Okay, you know, like you know,move, move on, they still have
(07:54):
the space.
Last week I had my call.
There was a woman who came on.
She had a loss 10 years ago ofa baby and I was just like so
happy she's like oh, you know, Iwas touching base and I just
wanted to come on and I'm likeamazing, like let's give space
to your baby and you can be theother woman on the call and give
support to them.
Wow, yeah, so it's really arange.
(08:16):
And and the range also is, youknow, with an infancy, infancy
loss, the range of how the babyhas is very varied as well.
Right?
So in my practice and on mycall, it could be they knew
about it in utero, right, thereare complications in the
pregnancy.
They knew potentially the babywasn't compatible with life
(08:40):
rates later on and they had togo to full term and deliver that
baby.
There are ones that know onlyafter the baby's born.
Right, they're told at birththis baby's really sick, it's
only going to live, we're notsure how long.
There's SIDS, right.
Just sudden, you take thathealthy baby home.
(09:02):
Everything's fine, fine.
Then, weeks months later, right, the baby dies.
Suddenly there's emergencieswithin.
You know that birth and and sothere's such a range and, like
every person's experience andeveryone woman's, you know,
holding that baby is like, okay,where are they at?
Speaker 2 (09:24):
what happens if a mother finds out when she's
pregnant that the baby isincompatible with life and she
comes to you?
Do they come to you whenthey're pregnant?
Yeah, yeah, and then whathappens Like it's like you can't
really prepare for it right.
Even if you think you'reprepared, when it actually
happens it's devastating.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
Yeah, so I'm not going to get into the halachic
aspects of it.
So there sometimes istermination for medical purposes
, but that would happen muchearlier on.
But, for the sake of ourconversation, they will be
giving birth and there's a lotof work in you know.
It's already a mourning periodthat starts before the baby's
(10:02):
born, sometimes right, knowingthat I'm going to give birth to
this baby and that's, you know,most likely right.
I've been told this baby won'tlive right, or it will only live
a certain amount, and it's aholding space for that mourning
and it's almost like mourningbefore the death, which is an
interesting difference um, thatyou start preparing and again no
(10:26):
one could be prepared.
But it's a different.
There is some preparing partsrather than like a sudden right
Um, and so I don't love the wordbut, for lack of better word,
there's an acceptance that wouldbe worked on and talked through
, and acceptance can go up anddown and in and out, and there's
(10:47):
probably, you know, supportingthem through understanding
what's going on medical pieces.
You know how they want to talkto the family about it, how they
want to let people know.
So a lot of people will come inthen because they really do
need the support to get to thatbirth, and then the expectation
(11:08):
that there's going to be a loss.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Do you see a lot of differences in how families
support the couple going throughthis?
Speaker 3 (11:19):
Yeah, and that's sometimes my number one question
who's your support, how arethey working out, how are they
doing?
And it just really varies.
I always feel kind of badbecause I'll say to women and
many times I'll have couplescome in together post loss as
well and and counsel them onthat Um, it's kind of on the
(11:40):
person who's gone through theloss to verbalize, make maybe
what they need, right, I alwayssay sorry, guys, like I know, I
know I really don't want to haveto do this, but if you don't
tell someone they're not gonnaknow.
And so podcasts like this andarticles and speaking
engagements and you know we'vegotten so much better as a
(12:04):
community and understanding loss, what to say, what not to say,
what to do, what does thisperson need, but yet still it
always comes back to.
I just have to say it.
If I need you to do this for me, if I'm having that burning
feeling inside, I'm justprobably going to have to
communicate it, whether it'shusband to wife, wife to husband
, whether it's to a mother,sister, whoever's of their
(12:27):
support.
And sometimes I'll saysometimes support systems are
just really bad.
It's like they don't know howto show up, they don't know what
to do.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
And they argue what do you mean?
You need this.
For me, that's ridiculous.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
Exactly, or like really still you're, you're
still not okay, or like come onRight, there will be those
comments Say you've written thebooks.
I only have a book that I'mgoing to write.
All the stupid things, all thestupid things people say, and
every one of my clients has likecontributed to these things
that people say.
And I always say like I reallydon't believe people are mean,
(13:04):
malicious, I just think they'reignorant or they think it's or
it's coming from a good place tosay it, but they don't know how
to right.
I don't think anyone wants badfor you or means you know,
really like yikes, but I justlike they don't know, they don't
know or they don't know what toknow.
And so I always kind of justreally empower the bereaved to
(13:29):
be able to say, hey, like I needyou to take my other kids Right
, or I need to, like I need youguys to be normal around me
Right, like when they're youknow, kind of come back into the
scene.
Like I need you to be normalaround me, I want to talk about
my baby, I want you to ask mehow I'm doing.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Don't avoid it.
And what if a mother I thinkunfortunately you have too many
mothers like this today a parent, whatever, a parent of the
bereaved, a mother, a father butI feel like in this case it'd
be more the mothers that they'reeither narcissists or I don't
know if this is the same thinglike maybe they're not
officially narcissists buteverything has to be all about
them and you know they'll cometo the bereaved mother's house
and just sit there and cry andsay, oh, this is terrible and I
feel so bad for you and I was soexcited to have a grandchild
(14:12):
and you know all those types ofthings.
So that, like then, what coulda parent do?
Speaker 3 (14:27):
That's a hard one, that's a really.
What do they do without theloss with this mother?
Exactly everything going toparental alienation in therapy.
That's okay, good, good, um,you know, I, I think it's about
listen.
Normally you won't be able tokind of say to that person, hey,
it's not about you, um, but ifthere's someone that can
identify that, or if there'ssomeone around another support
system that can kind of get themout of the way, you know to
allow for this bereaved mother,you know the baby's mommy, to
(14:52):
just be and to have their space,that would be, you know like
that, you know just to kind oflook out for that.
I always say, like, when I comeinto and we can talk about this
in a minute leader, butsometimes there's Shiva,
sometimes there's not right.
So we know that about infantloss under 30 days, there is a
(15:13):
private Kfura by the ChavarKedisha and there's no Shiva.
And so let's say there is Shiva.
I come into the room and Ialways say who's the one that's
not sitting Shiva, but sittingShiva, emotionally, right, we
always talk about that.
And there will be thegrandparents, right, the, the,
the very close friends, that waswent through that with her.
(15:34):
Um, the babysitter, right,right, like there's just so many
other people in the room thatcould could be going through
that as well, and so you hopekind of.
Just back to the question.
Like there's someone just kindof looking out and like maybe,
um, she'll need her own support,right, maybe her friends can
kind of pick up on that.
(15:55):
That's, grandmother, who wasjust self-centered.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Let's just say yeah wow, okay, so should we go there
?
Should we talk about the Shivaversus the not Shiva?
Speaker 3 (16:07):
Yeah, um, it's a very hard piece because, on you know
, in the women I support um andand and on our call I'll you'll
hear both right and and.
It's a hard piece because I I dothink most of the time, um,
I'll hear that I wanted theshiva right, I wanted the, the
(16:30):
proper levi, I wanted the shivaum and, and it's a hard piece
for them really understandingthe intricates of why that is um
, that they don't, they don'tget that quote-unquote closure
right, there's some closure thatone experiences with a Leviah,
with a Shiva, with talking aboutit, and there's a lot of pain,
(16:54):
right, there's a lot of like.
Sometimes I feel like in myoffice becomes a Shiva process,
right, we do it together, youknow, allowing that couple,
whether it's the mother or thecouple together to have that
experience of mourning and tohave that experience of talking
(17:16):
about their baby.
And so sometimes I'll try tointroduce that, to introduce
that that that may be an optionfor them, that they can do it
very silently or together or inmy office, so that they have
some opportunity to do that.
And then even shivas that areover 30 days with a baby, maybe
(17:41):
no one met, maybe the baby wasonly in the hospital.
Maybe no one knew about.
Maybe no one knew what washappening was only in the
hospital.
Maybe no one knew about.
Maybe no one knew what washappening.
It's a painful shiva as well,because you don't have stories
yet that are like a typicalshiva of stories.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
So I know one mother said to me it's actually the
grandmother that said to me, butthe baby, that dad was maybe 18
months or something.
She said, so what we say that?
Oh, he said 25 words.
By the time he was 18 months.
He must have been brilliant.
Like it sounds so petty and sosilly.
But what do you say?
And I believe you know, sittingshiva, mother or father doesn't
want to hear usually, you know,and everything that happens is
(18:20):
best.
Then you must be so strong andhashem shoes is only the ones he
loves.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
Yeah, I actually just could go there for a minute.
I actually asked this past weekon my call, what would you want
me to share?
Like I'm doing this podcast,what would you want me to share?
And when you said that, itreminded me of that.
You know, when people tell themyou're such a tzaddikas, you
(18:45):
must be a tzaddikas.
And a few of the women were likeI don't want to hear that.
First of all, you don't know mystatus, you don't know that
about me, like, and I, you knowI'm not holding at a very high
holy place for this to havehappened, right, hashem chose me
and and I get mixed reviewswith, like someone saying you're
(19:07):
so strong, this doesn't feelvery strong, I feel like I'm
falling apart.
So I don't you know that onedoesn't either sit well um with
with women, um, and and reallywhat you know, being a little
sensitive to that, as as theperson coming in and and you
know, being Menachem, ava, likethose aren't things they want to
(19:28):
hear.
You're so strong Like theydon't feel that way in those
moments, right, they don't feelthat way.
Who's the loss?
Speaker 2 (19:40):
right, I'm thinking of a title.
Speaker 3 (19:42):
Now we could do, like you know, I am not a today kiss
, and if I am, I don't know andyou for sure don't know yeah,
yeah, maybe years later I'veheard that sentiment, like I
could see how that um wassomething that really made me
grow or that helps me in mymidos, or helped me in my you
know connection to hashem, myyou know connections to Hashem.
(20:03):
But in those days, weeks,within that few months, no, it's
not.
You feel crushed and crumbled.
That's not, you know.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Wow.
So I was going to ask you howthis could affect Shambayis, but
before I ask you that, likeanything else important, that
they said yeah, yeah, theybrought up a few things.
Speaker 3 (20:24):
So you know, I love this line.
Like loss is not contagious,like don't hide from me, avoid
me, avoid the topic.
I even heard that many timesbefore.
You've spoken about it withmany of your guests, and it's
not.
And women don't want to feelthat way.
They don't want to feel that.
Like you know, and again, thisis this, is this, is that
(20:47):
message to other people.
It's only as uncomfortable asyou make it right, like she's
okay, she's comfortable talkingabout her baby.
She wants to make me talk abouther baby and nothing is going
to happen if you come up to her.
And you know, and that the moreof that avoidance is where they
get hurt.
You know, they, you know I'veheard this also like there's a
(21:09):
fear of like everyone's going toforget my baby, right, people
aren't going to remember my baby, and that's a real, you know so
.
So one of the things we talkabout is well, mommy will never
forget her baby, you know, andmost of the time there's most
likely a few different women, afew different people, a few
(21:30):
different um, a therapist, asupport person, a nurse will
never forget your baby, right,and knowing that from the other
end, women want to talk abouttheir babies potentially, or
maybe they don't want to openlyhave conversation, but they
don't want to avoid it.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
Um, I spoke to a woman that um lost her baby and
I think it was a few days.
A few weeks later, hersister-in-law I think it was had
a baby, a boy, the same gender,and 13 years later she was
struggling with it.
She's like, did everyone forgetthat I have a baby, a child the
(22:11):
same age?
Like it was very hard for her,like everyone forgot To them.
Life moved on.
It was a baby.
He didn't live more thanhowever long, but he would be
having a bar mitzvah also.
Now.
It was very like she was in alot of pain 13 years later and
she felt like she had like noplace to go with it.
Because who's listening tosomething that happened 13 years
ago and whatever.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
When you say that it like, yeah, like it's, it's so
hard that is one of the thingsalso they shared, that they are
at you know whether, and here wehave perm coming up, or whether
it's a sitter play, whetherit's a bar mitzvah, an upsharon,
(22:50):
they are following themilestones of the other babies
that were born at the same timeas their baby.
They're following thosemilestones.
They see those, those clothing,that costume, and they do go
there and it brings it up andthey're mourning their babies
and I do think you know it upand they're mourning their
babies.
And I do think, you know, outof sensitivity, if there's
someone in the room that noticesthat and says that and puts
that out there, a lot of mommieswant that, you know, like I
(23:12):
want someone to acknowledge hey,you know, surely it would have
been three.
Yeah, my, surely my Chaim'ssurly would have been three.
Right, Can we?
Speaker 2 (23:23):
just talk about the difference between acknowledging
oh surly would have been three.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
And oh, surly would have been three.
I feel so bad for you, right.
Right, there's a differencebetween and sometimes people
come in and say I don't want tobe pitied, right, and so pity
looks very different thanholding pain, right?
So someone who's experiencedpain for you, right, and I'll
(23:52):
say that to the women after alittle bit of time when they can
start to hear it, most likelythe person is in pain for you,
but as someone supportingsomeone through pain, we have to
be super careful that itdoesn't come out as pity like I
never.
Right.
Back to the tzaddikas, they werechosen for this.
(24:13):
Not such a never right.
Like sad, painful, grief, loss.
They miss their baby, but notnever.
Right, and I'll tell you thatmost of the time I don't think
people look at that.
So I'll remind people of that.
You know how you convey it,right, a mother really caring
for her daughter or um, I'll dothis.
(24:35):
It's a similar feel to likeinfertility, like I don't want
to be looked at as a Nebuch, butI'll say they want for you what
you want, right, and so they'rein pain for your loss, right,
with an infancy, with havinglost their baby.
So we just have to be cautioushow it comes across as well.
Right In supporting them and inacknowledging that you know
(24:58):
it's really yeah, it would havebeen his birthday.
Right In holding space fortheir pain, in opening it up for
them.
Or, you know, sometimes I'lltext if I know it's a yard site,
or if I know it's a birthdaycoming up, I'll text I'm
thinking about baby, you know,baby Sarla with you, I'm
(25:20):
thinking about her.
That that's it.
Something very simple, likethat.
It's just opening it.
Then she can decide.
The mommy can decide if shewants to share more, but to know
that I'm holding space for, youknow, the baby is very
comforting to a mother.
One year, two years, many years, a bas mitzvah oh yeah, baby's
(25:44):
the same time right, right.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
I was talking to someone recently and she was
telling me that her daughter ishaving a baby, right to show,
and I said, oh, what number,number whatever?
I said make up a number.
I said, oh, what number?
Number nine.
And she said, how do you get tonine?
I just just told you she has,you know, x amount of girls and
X amount of boys.
It's number eight.
And I was like, but her twinthat died, she lost a twin.
(26:09):
And she was like, oh, yeah, Iguess, and I'm thinking to
myself, your daughter isthinking about that twin
no-transcript, because she hadone instead of two.
(26:32):
But she, you know, she did it,whatever.
So, yeah, it's something thatreally needs to.
You know, people really need tolike yeah how many?
kids.
Do you have how many?
Speaker 3 (26:40):
kids do you have?
How many kids do you have?
Right, and that that topic hascome up so many times with the
women I work with, with thecouples like what do you want to
say Once that one, you know,backing up a job?
One one thing I'll say aboutgrief, and we know this in the
community there are no rules,right?
(27:00):
I always say put your handsover your heart, what feels
right to you, what feels rightto you, what feels right to you,
and so, as long as within theirfunctioning range or getting up
in the morning, you know I'lljoke around.
I'm like did your kids get outto school today?
Were they dressed?
Yeah, I'm like you're doinggreat.
Did you give them some food onthe way?
If not, someone will give themfood.
(27:20):
We're good to go, right,there's no rules to it, and so
some of these things are soindividual.
How many kids do you have Me?
What do you want to share?
And who is that?
Who is that random?
I don't know you.
Maybe I'm only going to say myfive, right, but someone I feel
a little more connected to, orI'm just feeling that I want to
(27:42):
talk about slowly.
Hi, I'm Sarla.
I'll say yeah, and this I heardonce and I love it and I hold a
lot of space for this I havefive on Aretz and one in
Shemayim, which is a beautifulsentiment.
Right, I have five here and onein Shemayim, and again, the
more comfortable, the morecomfortable year in one shmime,
(28:06):
and again, the more comfortable,the more comfortable, you know.
But again some people mightjust, but I love how you're able
to point out to that mother,like your daughter's, your
daughter's count is 10, not nine, right?
Speaker 2 (28:16):
yeah, right, totally yeah anything else that they
shared with you just going overhere.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
Oh, you know, I think , what they said, like post the
shiva or post the loss, like youknow, the texts or the
condolence cards wereappreciated, you know, right,
like I'm thinking about you or Iknow you've gone through a lot,
I love.
I love also when someone canacknowledge later on, right, not
(28:49):
just acknowledge about the babybut do something for that,
right, I think Glenn spoke aboutthis like post Shiva, I got
your carpools right, I'm goingto take care of dinner for you.
Right, women, like, don'tforget also, depending on when
the loss was, this is also amother who is postpartum, right.
(29:13):
So coming home from a hospitalif the baby had died in the
hospital without a baby is so,so painful.
But she's also a postpartumwoman, right, having gone
through, maybe recently or maybea week or two ago, labor and
delivery.
Right, and she needs to betaken care of, right, she needs
(29:33):
that.
She needs the same kempetertime, right, and the care for
that others need.
And even after that, right, youknow, know, a month later, to
call a friend and say do youwant to go out for lunch?
My treat, send her, um, youknow, a spa package me, just
things like that.
And to the couple as well.
(29:54):
We can get to our husbands andwives and I think you brought
the question but then we tabledit, but I want to just also say
on this what you're saying, thatit's funny because I was just
rereading the book.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
You know the part that I wrote for the friends.
Um, you know, a woman couldfeel like it's very important
how you say it.
If you say, are you goingthrough such a hard time?
What could I do for you?
Or could I go to the store foryou, they might be like, no, I'm
good.
But if you say very liketargeted, I'm in the store now I
do need bread or cheese, theymight say, oh, I don't need
(30:25):
bread or cheese, but I reallyneed cream cheese.
Or you know, I'm gonna be inthe neighborhood anyways, I know
tuesday's your carpool day.
Can I do it for you this week?
Like that comes across as likeoh well, thank you no, no, pity,
right, right, and that's yeah,yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
One other thing that I see wrote down was, you know,
kind of back to that loss is notcontagious, that if a woman is
opening up or if a couple istalking about their baby, go
with it, stay with it, stay withthem and not try to.
You know, one of the women'slike I learned, it's not so
socially appropriate to talkabout dead babies, right, like
(31:05):
that's so sad, right, why, right.
And then you know they talkabout the, the humor, and you
know um in it.
But but why not?
Why can't we sociallyappropriately talk about a baby
that has died?
Why not?
Why can't we give space to thatbaby?
(31:26):
totally, totally so you wouldask about shalm bias.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
Repeat the question, just so I I asked you really how
this affects shalm bias, bothfor good and for bad.
But really, what I really wantto say is what happens if, like
one of the spouses, are anaddict.
Speaker 3 (31:47):
I think if that's ever happened, you're just like
collided my specialties together.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
I'm sure it's happened.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
Unfortunately, there's a lot of addiction.
Yeah, or the loss leads toaddiction, like they become, you
know, find their copingmechanism.
Um, how affects shun bias.
So I I really think it can goeither way, right, we see, and I
can't give a percentage to itwe see both.
(32:16):
We see couples that can fallapart, crumble because of a loss
, through a loss, and we seecouples that become stronger and
more bonded.
And when I do work with couples, I'll have to educate them a
lot on the differences betweenmale and female, between husband
(32:37):
wife, that your grief is goingto look great, no rules here.
Your grief will look verydifferent than her grief and his
grief will look very different.
And what his coping mechanismof you know, I'm going out to
play basketball.
She may need to just sit on thecouch and be helped, right, I'm
getting stereotypical with menand women, but it could be
(33:00):
totally flipped that the malealso is just needs that space,
and I have a few reallyexcellent male colleagues who
specialize in just seeing herhusband and supporting the
husband.
You need just as much support,right, in different ways.
And so the same to the thing,to that like guy's best friend.
Hey, how you doing?
(33:20):
You want to talk, we want to goget you know something to drink
, right.
So finding space for, for youknow, educating the couple and
supporting the couple to supporteach other, right, and this
kind of goes back to and Ialways say this is couples
therapy.
Anyways, like they won't knowwhat you need.
No one is a mind reader, right.
And so I will have to clearlysay to you right, I really want
(33:45):
to talk about our baby now.
Right, I really want to justsit on the couch right now.
I really just, I need to go tobed, I need to shut down.
Can you take care of everythingelse?
Right.
And if we can't, you know, I'lltell the woman, like, if you
don't communicate it, no onewill know.
You know even me as a therapist, I'll invite them in and say
(34:06):
I'm not going to get everythingright.
So if I don't get it right,like you got to tell me also if
I'm missing something or ifthere's something that's going
on that you want me to know.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
And what happens if one of the spouses really want
to talk about the baby and theother spouse just can't?
It's too painful for them.
Speaker 3 (34:24):
Right.
So then I'll encourage likesometimes not everything is for
the spouse Could be that that'swhat friends are for, that's
what a therapist is for, that'swhat a rub is for, right, and so
when we give that to thecouples early on in the process,
they'll be able to navigate ita little smoother right, just a
(34:45):
little bit, with a little bitless tension in what is already
very painful space that we couldsay maybe she doesn't want to
talk about it.
Do you have a rough to yourbest friend?
Maybe your brother could justgo schmooze with them, right's?
Speaker 2 (35:01):
you know, sometimes it's like they just need to be,
have the ideas introduced tothem and then they're like, so
open to it, like, oh, okay, yeahme like really they don't say
but this is my spouse, I wentthrough the loss together with
him or her, so I want thatperson to be the one to talk to
me that's what they'll startwith.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
but then, once they got this, and it's really
education how different each oneis and how they each to
different needs, and that's okayand let's honor that space, and
they may come back a differenttime and be able to hold it, but
that's really okay, right, andthere's nothing wrong with each
other.
That that's what their responseis Right.
(35:42):
Wow, each other.
That that's what their responseis right.
Well, like, how many rebbeimare holding, holding their
talmud, holding theirconstituents through, through a?
Speaker 2 (35:54):
loss.
There's a lot.
I spoke to a mother that lost achild, an older son, not a baby
, and her husband couldn't talkabout it and at first it was
hard for her, like she had had ahard time, like if they were
talking together to someone elseand someone you know brought up
her son's name, he would changehis name, just walk out of the
room, whatever it was, and itwas hard.
He's a very hushed up personand eventually, as time went on,
(36:25):
his I guess Talmidim or maybehe them, and his wife said to me
it's all because of me.
Like I had to really like teachhim how to support me or how
I'm supporting him, and it wasvery interesting how he became
so good at doing what he doesfrom not even doing it the real
way with his wife, you know,right, yeah, so, yeah, um, I
(36:48):
wanted to ask you something.
Yeah, could we talk about, um,if, let's say, someone has
fertility issues and then theygo through this kind of loss?
Speaker 3 (36:56):
Yeah, yeah, the loss is loss.
So we can't I don't I don'tlove to put them on like gauging
things but a loss afterfertility treatment.
So someone goes through ivf,you know they have their um
embryos freezing, right, andsome have a few and some have
(37:18):
many, and then they experience aloss and it's rough, right.
So again, not comparing losses.
You're still losing a baby,right, there is there's a
shattering to it because, don'tforget, they were also in my
office going through all theinfertility, right.
So it's really, really there's.
(37:40):
There's more of a maybe I wantto use the word devastation that
comes with it rather than youknow, again, I don't love it.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
Is it feeling a little bit like hopeless, that
my dream is never going tomaterialize?
Like other mothers that havehad babies know that they could
still have their dreams.
Speaker 3 (37:56):
Yes, so not only did I, could I not get pregnant on
my own right?
Did this not work normally theway the regular people do?
I also can't even.
My baby can't even live Right.
There's a lot I know, I know, Iknow it's, it's, it's yes, yeah
(38:17):
.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
Yeah, and the kinds of empathy and support that they
need from their spouse andtheir family.
I guess it's really the same.
They have to explain what theyneed, their spouse and their
family.
I guess it's really the same.
They have to explain what theyneed.
Speaker 3 (38:29):
Yeah, and that's it.
Yeah, it's.
You know, the hopelessness Ithink in in in many areas can
get very like deep and hard.
You know, and helping a coupleand supporting a woman through,
you know again, lack of betterword of acceptance that this is
(38:52):
right now, but we don't know.
Right, and then that's, I think, the hardest part.
I explain um our lives aschapter books.
So, whatever age you're in,you're, let's say, a young girl
comes and she's 25, right, soyou're in chapter 25.
And chapter 22 to 25 was allthis infertility treatment and
testing and this.
(39:13):
And then at 25, this happens,right, this, you were pregnant
and then you had this loss.
I said we don't know whatchapter 27 and 30 is going to
look like.
Right, it's very hard andunsettling that we don't, we
can't.
Sometimes I'm always like Ijust wish I had that glass ball.
Right, it's very hard andunsettling that we don't, we
can't.
Sometimes I'm always like Ijust wish I had that glass ball.
Right, like I wish glass ball.
Phone call with God, like hey,could you just give me a sneak
(39:35):
preview.
And they think, miriam, likewe're kind of living in those
times now.
Right, like, talk just aboutthe loss that's going on with
cholesterol, like just holdingspace for the VBAS family, like
there's tremendous loss rightnow, right, and we don't know.
We don't know what just twomonths from now will look like,
(39:56):
right, we don't know what nextyear will look like.
And that, I think, is a hardplace, while sitting in pain, to
go through.
And many people in differentareas right, and I have to stay
in my lane but knowing thatwe're from Yidden have to find
the source of how do I find thathope right?
(40:18):
Where do I look for it?
Who do I get it from?
And different people havedifferent avenues of that.
The support calls, maybe theyare continuously meaning, right,
and this isn't something wewould say to them, but this is
something they would maybe cometo like.
Maybe they want to actively beworking on their Amuna, right,
(40:40):
whether it's through learning asafer, whether it's through
calls, whether it's through justsitting, you know, with a rub
and finding the hope right,finding, you know, even before
the hope we talk about findingmeaning right, and I mean
there's nothing like findingmeaning in the organization of
(41:01):
Mayreem, right?
What do I do with this loss?
And I start an organization,then I support others, then I
counsel others.
Every single person who hasgone through experience will
then go finding I heardsomething so beautiful One woman
who lost her baby.
She started a baby, a briskamach.
(41:22):
One woman started A briskamach.
There's no li'il nishmas forright, they don't need their
nisham was pure.
So it's the least time again,I'm not the rough, but that's
the general idea that we'veshared and so they don't need
the li'ilu nishmas.
But that mommy wants to dosomething and it's so beautiful.
(41:44):
One opens a brisk gamach andone opens.
We talk about what did you dowith some of the clothing?
Let's say this baby lived.
She went and she made a gamachwith all the clothing she had
received of her baby that livedsix months.
Wow, wow.
That's so huge that people canthen find meaning do something
(42:06):
right, make an organization andwe don't have to go jump to
organizations.
That's big, right, right, butnot everyone is Glenn and
Suggies.
Speaker 2 (42:14):
And we don't even have to go to making a gemach.
It could be something simplesaying an extra parak of
tehillim every day, or sayingI'm saying this, bracha, I'm
going to have in mind my baby.
Speaker 3 (42:25):
Yeah, I love women who we've talked about.
What do you do on the birthday?
What do you do on the birthday?
And a lot of women have donewith their other kids.
They have other kids.
They've done brachos parties.
We're going to do a brachaparty.
On Shabbos, they'll do a brachaparty, different things that
women find, because not havingthat real initialist part I
(42:45):
think is a hard piece, becausehow do I hold on and how do I
make space and how do I continue?
And so these small littlethings, right, taking on
something on themselves is.
I recently had a relative, um,very special woman, um, um,
esther Rosenbaum.
(43:06):
She was in in in Lakewood.
She's a mental passed away andat the Shiva she was.
She was older but she was sickAt the Shiva.
Her daughters were telling methat 11 years ago, when she got
sick, she took on to lightcandles early and I was
impressed and it's alwayssomething you hear about, light
candles early and I'm like, notme, and just that Shabbos.
(43:28):
I decided, you know what, justfor Esther, I'm going to light
candles early this week and I'vedone it for three weeks now.
I don't know if it's going tostick, but it helps me hold
space for her.
But for Bibi there's different.
You know, ask your mom aboutlighting another candle.
(43:48):
Some do, some don't right,there's different different
different ideas, but I thinkwhen the hope comes in, when you
find something or somewhere toyou know, really channel right,
Channel that love, channel thatloss into something right
(44:09):
Channel that love, channel thatloss into something.
Speaker 2 (44:10):
And I also want to say, for those mothers that
don't like hearing, that theydon't need an Aaliyah as a baby.
I don't even know what age youwere referring to, but it
doesn't matter because for mybook, the sack that I got was
actually yeah, they could alwaysuse an Aaliyah, no matter what,
and he explains it a little bit.
I'm not going to go into itbecause it's like very deep for
me, but if mothers like want to,going to go into because it's
like very deep for me, yeah, um,but if mothers like wanna, you
(44:31):
know again, ask your own love,but there's you know every,
every way, right, so right.
I mean listen, we, we cancontinuously do all the time
like that's not a right, right,right there's no harm, but I
think, you know, according to mystaff, it could still help the
baby, even if the baby was fiveminutes old.
Ok, ok.
Speaker 3 (44:49):
But again, I think you know, just kind of dipping
into this for a minute, thehalakhic aspects, what's halakha
and what's recommended, and itwill always turn it back.
You know, you know, get someclarity on that.
You know, you know, get someclarity on that right.
(45:11):
Working with a woman this weekthat said, oh, I'm not allowed
to talk about the baby, and Italked to the baby, I'm sorry,
talk to the baby, oh, okay.
And so I said just get someclarity on what that means.
Talk to the baby or dive intothe right.
Like you know, you can't diveinto the person that's dead, but
we ask them to be a militia,like all those things.
When women say it, I just wantto make sure they have clarity
(45:34):
on it and it feels good for themand comfortable and deciphering
like I'll always support womenand just decipher what's halacha
versus recommended, what youwant to do.
And that's where the like not alot of rules come in.
Like, not a lot of rules comein.
There's not a lot of rules right.
Speaker 2 (45:52):
Wow, okay.
So before we end, I want to askyou if there's anything that we
, you know, didn't cover.
But I just want to share thiswith you because I think you
might like it.
I don't know, for me it likemade a lot of sense.
I was listening to.
It was actually in a Muna Shiraor whatever, but the speaker
was saying he was quoting Ithink it was a Gaish author even
, I don't know.
But about back to the empathy,you know, like don't say like oh
(46:13):
, how are you, how are you doing?
But like how are you today?
And I felt like that one wordjust changes the whole tone and
the whole like meaning of thesentence.
So I think that's like I don'tknow.
That touched me.
I wanted to share that.
Speaker 3 (46:27):
Yeah, and I love that because lately I've been having
this conversation with severaldifferent people, the how are
you?
And like great, what do you?
Like Good, like, in all honesty, I'm having a hard day, right,
so I love that.
That like how are you doingtoday is so targeted.
One thing I would add like thewomen said, like I do think,
(46:52):
like you know, I've asked manytimes like what has brought you
comfort?
And I think that what hasbrought you comfort, you know
what's brought you comfort?
And I think the idea that theyknow again, not initially this
is hard for anyone to hear inthe moments, right, but within,
with time, right, and althoughit's the worst saying it's
(47:14):
actually true, time heals.
Right, there's a healingprocess and again, it ebbs and
flows like acceptance.
It ebbs and flows like amoonwalk, but time does.
So when I have a woman on thecall who's like some people get
on the call one week post theloss and then there'll be other
(47:35):
women on the call that will justbe able to say you won't feel
like this in six months, youwon't right now feel it.
You're going to feel it, butthe idea of I can't go on, I
don't know how I'm going tomanage, how can I live are very
raw, you know, right awayfeelings.
And then that time and whateveryone has to do during that
(47:57):
grief and that mourning periodperiod.
It keeps going right.
We know that about it.
There's no end to it.
It's going to come right.
It's when it's going to come.
It's important for those youknow no end to it.
It's going to come right whenit's going to come.
Um, it's important for those youknow for, for us to know, and
the piece that gives a lot ofwomen comfort is, you know, that
idea and again, staying.
(48:17):
You know, this is this is outof my lane, but just from
sharing from from many of thewomen that I've worked with,
that, the idea when they canreally, you know, accept the
idea of that this baby's tikkunpurpose was only for this amount
of time, right, and my purposewas to be this baby's mother for
(48:40):
this amount of time, fromseconds to hours, to months,
right, that's like a big youknow of all the things I've
heard of reasons, becausethere's, I want to know why.
There is that piece of like,wanting to know why, and this I
think is one of the biggestparts that like holds a little
(49:01):
space for that question.
Speaker 2 (49:05):
But I just want to add also that these two things
that you just mentioned, youknow that it won't be like this
forever and you will feel better.
And you just said about the why.
Um, it could only come fromsomeone that went through it,
and I think that's veryimportant.
Speaker 3 (49:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:21):
Yeah, okay, amazing.
So thank you so so much forcoming on.
Thank you for having me.
You have come across as a veryempathetic and I think whoever
listens to this is going to likeit.
Okay, amazing.
So thank you so so much forcoming on.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 3 (49:31):
You, I come across as very empathetic and I think
whoever listens to this is goingto like it.
So thank you so much.
Thank you, I appreciate youhaving me.
Speaker 1 (49:36):
You've just listened to an episode of the Relief from
Grief podcast with MiriamRiviat, brought to you by Mayrim
.
For more episodes, visit theMayrim website at wwwmayrimorg.
Help us reach more people whomight benefit from this podcast.
If you know someone who couldfind it helpful, please share it
with them.
If you have questions orcomments for the speaker, or if
(49:59):
you'd like to suggest a guestfor the podcast, we'd love to
hear from you.
Email us at relieffromgrief atmayrimorg.
We look forward to having youjoin us in the next episode.
Welcome to the Relief from Grief podcast, hosted by
Mrs Miriam Rebiet and brought toyou by Merim.
Merim is an organizationdedicated to supporting families
who have experienced the lossof a child.
It was founded by IloyNishmat's, nechama Liba and
Miriam Holman.
Despite her illness, miriamdevoted herself to addressing
(00:22):
the needs of parents andsiblings grappling with the
immense pain of losing a child.
She felt this loss deeply,having experienced it firsthand
when her older sister, nechamaLiba, passed away.
Mehrim continues to uplift andexpand on the work Miriam began,
a mission carried forward byher parents with great
dedication.
(00:43):
If you have any questions orcomments for the speaker, or if
you'd like to suggest a guestfor the podcast, please email us
at relieffromgrief at mayrimorg.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Hi everybody.
Thank you so much for joiningus here today on the Relief from
Grief by Mayrim podcast.
So today I'm so happy that MrsHani Delman agreed to come on.
Hani is a licensed clinicalsocial worker and she
facilitates a lot of infancyloss groups and she's also done
work together with the Holmansfor Mayrim.
(01:18):
So thank you so much for comingon.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm listening to a lot ofyou're bringing so much to the
opening to the grief andbereavement worlds.
Like the things like no one'stalking about.
Like podcast after podcast,you're talking about it.
It's really beautiful.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
It was very funny.
I have to just share the storynow that you talk about that I
went to.
I had a doctor's appointmentyesterday and she said to me
something about if I ever hadany genetic testing or anyone in
my family, because I wentthrough a lot of loss in my own
family.
And I said to her somethinglike no, genetically I'm sure
I'm fine, because if I wouldn'tbe, I would be dead by now.
(01:58):
She's like what?
I was like yeah, I would bedead.
She's like okay, why is yourfamily dead?
I'm like kind of I would bedead.
She was like okay, why is yourfamily dead?
I'm like kind of that's me.
We were morbid humor.
She was looking at me and I waslike and then I whatever?
Told her all the losses that Iwent through.
But then she was asking me whatI do and I do like different
things.
I was like thinking what shouldI say?
I was like okay, the podcastmakes the most sense.
(02:18):
She thinks I'm crazy.
Let me at least tell her that,at least out of my story.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
So I just thought that was funny, but anyways,
okay.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
So can you tell us a little bit about, I guess, what
you do, who you treat?
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Sure, sure.
So yeah, I'm a licensedclinical social worker and I'm
most of my specialty isreproductive and maternal mental
health, and so I really focuson infertility at any range.
So I really focus oninfertility at any range.
I focus on miscarriage andinfancy loss.
I focus on loss at any pointand postpartum mood disorders I
(02:56):
treat, and then I dabble inthose struggling with their
spouses that are going throughaddictions.
So the spouse that's husband orwife is struggling with their
spouses that are going throughaddictions.
So the spouse that's husband orwife is struggling with
addiction.
It's kind of a sidebar.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Wow, yeah, that's like very different.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
You know over the years in practice, like there's
an ebb and flow to what you kindof hone in on.
So, I also facilitate.
I volunteer for an organizationcalled Canafiant, which
supports infancy and pregnancylosses, and I facilitate their
(03:37):
monthly group for mommies whohave lost their babies, infants
that have lived at any point,mommies who have lost their
babies, infants that have livedat any point.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
So what does that mean?
Any point, like I'll tell youwhen I was working on this book
right, that's hopefully going tocome out soon.
It's time for parents that lostchildren.
So I was very especially afterspeaking to like Devorah Enten
and Malky Klerstenfeld, fromKind of Fine, I was like, okay,
so a child is really countedfrom like, uh, a stillborn which
is like the sixth month orsomething like that, and I
(04:09):
didn't think that would go intothe book and it kind of did,
because it kind of wentnaturally with, like you know,
stillborns and and you knowwhatever, and babies that die
you know right away.
And then, um, okay, sorry, Ididn't mean to sound so callous,
um, I didn't mean to say in thea callous way, I know it's very
painful, but then when I wasgoing over it with Mr Holman and
he was like there's still justa difference.
(04:31):
This book is for children thatlived, even if it's for two
minutes.
So I switched it and I did makeit like that was the starting
point.
So I'm just curious what youhave to say about what that
means.
You know, as far as a childlosing a baby that lives, like.
Is that true?
Like two minutes, two hours orthree weeks, like it's the same
kind of pain?
Speaker 3 (04:52):
So on our call I always kind of put that out
there because it's a call, so noone's really sure who else is
on I'll say this call is andthis call actually developed
from it's where we many, manyyears of calls that everyone was
on the same call and at acertain point I think actually
one of the women said to Malke,we need our own call, we've lost
(05:14):
babies, they've just hadmiscarriages or stillbirths.
So I would say it's not for meto differentiate, I stay where
the client's at.
So someone who I'm counselingand supporting through a
stillbirth, I have to stay withthat on how they are still and
they were carrying their babyand lost their baby.
(05:35):
So I really try to stay wheremy client is at.
So if someone's coming inhaving experienced a stillbirth,
I have to hold that space forthem and counsel them through
that.
And someone who's coming in andon our call, it really starts
from a woman who has given birthto a baby that's lived from
(05:58):
seconds even.
You know, like you kind of saidminutes, I'll say seconds even.
Wow, he has lived to and I'llsay it minutes, hours, days,
weeks, months, right, and amother is a mother.
So there probably are nuances,you know there probably are
differences, but for the personwho's experienced it, I just
(06:21):
stay with that.
I just stay with them.
It hasn't come up that much onour call that that will become a
.
Well, mine was only minutes.
You know stillbirths aredifferent but again, the pain,
the grief that they'reexperiencing has to be given
space for and room to hold aswell in process.
(06:43):
So I'll let Glenn take leadthere.
Yeah, yeah, and you'll hearthat.
You know, you'll hear thatpiece of like someone who has
experienced a baby that's livedwill say that, well, my baby
lived.
Someone who's experienced astillbirth will say, well, I
still had a baby.
So it's kind of like, okay,we'll just stay where they're at
(07:07):
.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Right, right, and I think that one important part of
this podcast is for mothers tounderstand that they're like not
to judge themselves for theirpain because their baby didn't
live, or their baby only livedfor two minutes, like it's all
so normal and so painful andthat needs to really be
validated.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
And what's beautiful about this podcast giving space
for it and then like the call Ido and other supports is that
they then have the space rightwhen maybe someone else is like
can't give them that space orcan't really understand, oh, it
only lived a little bit.
Like there is that piece outthere.
Okay, you know, like you know,move, move on, they still have
(07:54):
the space.
Last week I had my call.
There was a woman who came on.
She had a loss 10 years ago ofa baby and I was just like so
happy she's like oh, you know, Iwas touching base and I just
wanted to come on and I'm likeamazing, like let's give space
to your baby and you can be theother woman on the call and give
support to them.
Wow, yeah, so it's really arange.
(08:16):
And and the range also is, youknow, with an infancy, infancy
loss, the range of how the babyhas is very varied as well.
Right?
So in my practice and on mycall, it could be they knew
about it in utero, right, thereare complications in the
pregnancy.
They knew potentially the babywasn't compatible with life
(08:40):
rates later on and they had togo to full term and deliver that
baby.
There are ones that know onlyafter the baby's born.
Right, they're told at birththis baby's really sick, it's
only going to live, we're notsure how long.
There's SIDS, right.
Just sudden, you take thathealthy baby home.
(09:02):
Everything's fine, fine.
Then, weeks months later, right, the baby dies.
Suddenly there's emergencieswithin.
You know that birth and and sothere's such a range and, like
every person's experience andeveryone woman's, you know,
holding that baby is like, okay,where are they at?
Speaker 2 (09:24):
what happens if a mother finds out when she's
pregnant that the baby isincompatible with life and she
comes to you?
Do they come to you whenthey're pregnant?
Yeah, yeah, and then whathappens Like it's like you can't
really prepare for it right.
Even if you think you'reprepared, when it actually
happens it's devastating.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
Yeah, so I'm not going to get into the halachic
aspects of it.
So there sometimes istermination for medical purposes
, but that would happen muchearlier on.
But, for the sake of ourconversation, they will be
giving birth and there's a lotof work in you know.
It's already a mourning periodthat starts before the baby's
(10:02):
born, sometimes right, knowingthat I'm going to give birth to
this baby and that's, you know,most likely right.
I've been told this baby won'tlive right, or it will only live
a certain amount, and it's aholding space for that mourning
and it's almost like mourningbefore the death, which is an
interesting difference um, thatyou start preparing and again no
(10:26):
one could be prepared.
But it's a different.
There is some preparing partsrather than like a sudden right
Um, and so I don't love the wordbut, for lack of better word,
there's an acceptance that wouldbe worked on and talked through
, and acceptance can go up anddown and in and out, and there's
(10:47):
probably, you know, supportingthem through understanding
what's going on medical pieces.
You know how they want to talkto the family about it, how they
want to let people know.
So a lot of people will come inthen because they really do
need the support to get to thatbirth, and then the expectation
(11:08):
that there's going to be a loss.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Do you see a lot of differences in how families
support the couple going throughthis?
Speaker 3 (11:19):
Yeah, and that's sometimes my number one question
who's your support, how arethey working out, how are they
doing?
And it just really varies.
I always feel kind of badbecause I'll say to women and
many times I'll have couplescome in together post loss as
well and and counsel them onthat Um, it's kind of on the
(11:40):
person who's gone through theloss to verbalize, make maybe
what they need, right, I alwayssay sorry, guys, like I know, I
know I really don't want to haveto do this, but if you don't
tell someone they're not gonnaknow.
And so podcasts like this andarticles and speaking
engagements and you know we'vegotten so much better as a
(12:04):
community and understanding loss, what to say, what not to say,
what to do, what does thisperson need, but yet still it
always comes back to.
I just have to say it.
If I need you to do this for me, if I'm having that burning
feeling inside, I'm justprobably going to have to
communicate it, whether it'shusband to wife, wife to husband
, whether it's to a mother,sister, whoever's of their
(12:27):
support.
And sometimes I'll saysometimes support systems are
just really bad.
It's like they don't know howto show up, they don't know what
to do.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
And they argue what do you mean?
You need this.
For me, that's ridiculous.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
Exactly, or like really still you're, you're
still not okay, or like come onRight, there will be those
comments Say you've written thebooks.
I only have a book that I'mgoing to write.
All the stupid things, all thestupid things people say, and
every one of my clients has likecontributed to these things
that people say.
And I always say like I reallydon't believe people are mean,
(13:04):
malicious, I just think they'reignorant or they think it's or
it's coming from a good place tosay it, but they don't know how
to right.
I don't think anyone wants badfor you or means you know,
really like yikes, but I justlike they don't know, they don't
know or they don't know what toknow.
And so I always kind of justreally empower the bereaved to
(13:29):
be able to say, hey, like I needyou to take my other kids Right
, or I need to, like I need youguys to be normal around me
Right, like when they're youknow, kind of come back into the
scene.
Like I need you to be normalaround me, I want to talk about
my baby, I want you to ask mehow I'm doing.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Don't avoid it.
And what if a mother I thinkunfortunately you have too many
mothers like this today a parent, whatever, a parent of the
bereaved, a mother, a father butI feel like in this case it'd
be more the mothers that they'reeither narcissists or I don't
know if this is the same thinglike maybe they're not
officially narcissists buteverything has to be all about
them and you know they'll cometo the bereaved mother's house
and just sit there and cry andsay, oh, this is terrible and I
feel so bad for you and I was soexcited to have a grandchild
(14:12):
and you know all those types ofthings.
So that, like then, what coulda parent do?
Speaker 3 (14:27):
That's a hard one, that's a really.
What do they do without theloss with this mother?
Exactly everything going toparental alienation in therapy.
That's okay, good, good, um,you know, I, I think it's about
listen.
Normally you won't be able tokind of say to that person, hey,
it's not about you, um, but ifthere's someone that can
identify that, or if there'ssomeone around another support
system that can kind of get themout of the way, you know to
allow for this bereaved mother,you know the baby's mommy, to
(14:52):
just be and to have their space,that would be, you know like
that, you know just to kind oflook out for that.
I always say, like, when I comeinto and we can talk about this
in a minute leader, butsometimes there's Shiva,
sometimes there's not right.
So we know that about infantloss under 30 days, there is a
(15:13):
private Kfura by the ChavarKedisha and there's no Shiva.
And so let's say there is Shiva.
I come into the room and Ialways say who's the one that's
not sitting Shiva, but sittingShiva, emotionally, right, we
always talk about that.
And there will be thegrandparents, right, the, the,
the very close friends, that waswent through that with her.
(15:34):
Um, the babysitter, right,right, like there's just so many
other people in the room thatcould could be going through
that as well, and so you hopekind of.
Just back to the question.
Like there's someone just kindof looking out and like maybe,
um, she'll need her own support,right, maybe her friends can
kind of pick up on that.
(15:55):
That's, grandmother, who wasjust self-centered.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Let's just say yeah wow, okay, so should we go there
?
Should we talk about the Shivaversus the not Shiva?
Speaker 3 (16:07):
Yeah, um, it's a very hard piece because, on you know
, in the women I support um andand and on our call I'll you'll
hear both right and and.
It's a hard piece because I I dothink most of the time, um,
I'll hear that I wanted theshiva right, I wanted the, the
(16:30):
proper levi, I wanted the shivaum and, and it's a hard piece
for them really understandingthe intricates of why that is um
, that they don't, they don'tget that quote-unquote closure
right, there's some closure thatone experiences with a Leviah,
with a Shiva, with talking aboutit, and there's a lot of pain,
(16:54):
right, there's a lot of like.
Sometimes I feel like in myoffice becomes a Shiva process,
right, we do it together, youknow, allowing that couple,
whether it's the mother or thecouple together to have that
experience of mourning and tohave that experience of talking
(17:16):
about their baby.
And so sometimes I'll try tointroduce that, to introduce
that that that may be an optionfor them, that they can do it
very silently or together or inmy office, so that they have
some opportunity to do that.
And then even shivas that areover 30 days with a baby, maybe
(17:41):
no one met, maybe the baby wasonly in the hospital.
Maybe no one knew about.
Maybe no one knew what washappening was only in the
hospital.
Maybe no one knew about.
Maybe no one knew what washappening.
It's a painful shiva as well,because you don't have stories
yet that are like a typicalshiva of stories.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
So I know one mother said to me it's actually the
grandmother that said to me, butthe baby, that dad was maybe 18
months or something.
She said, so what we say that?
Oh, he said 25 words.
By the time he was 18 months.
He must have been brilliant.
Like it sounds so petty and sosilly.
But what do you say?
And I believe you know, sittingshiva, mother or father doesn't
want to hear usually, you know,and everything that happens is
(18:20):
best.
Then you must be so strong andhashem shoes is only the ones he
loves.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
Yeah, I actually just could go there for a minute.
I actually asked this past weekon my call, what would you want
me to share?
Like I'm doing this podcast,what would you want me to share?
And when you said that, itreminded me of that.
You know, when people tell themyou're such a tzaddikas, you
(18:45):
must be a tzaddikas.
And a few of the women were likeI don't want to hear that.
First of all, you don't know mystatus, you don't know that
about me, like, and I, you knowI'm not holding at a very high
holy place for this to havehappened, right, hashem chose me
and and I get mixed reviewswith, like someone saying you're
(19:07):
so strong, this doesn't feelvery strong, I feel like I'm
falling apart.
So I don't you know that onedoesn't either sit well um with
with women, um, and and reallywhat you know, being a little
sensitive to that, as as theperson coming in and and you
know, being Menachem, ava, likethose aren't things they want to
(19:28):
hear.
You're so strong Like theydon't feel that way in those
moments, right, they don't feelthat way.
Who's the loss?
Speaker 2 (19:40):
right, I'm thinking of a title.
Speaker 3 (19:42):
Now we could do, like you know, I am not a today kiss
, and if I am, I don't know andyou for sure don't know yeah,
yeah, maybe years later I'veheard that sentiment, like I
could see how that um wassomething that really made me
grow or that helps me in mymidos, or helped me in my you
know connection to hashem, myyou know connections to Hashem.
(20:03):
But in those days, weeks,within that few months, no, it's
not.
You feel crushed and crumbled.
That's not, you know.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Wow.
So I was going to ask you howthis could affect Shambayis, but
before I ask you that, likeanything else important, that
they said yeah, yeah, theybrought up a few things.
Speaker 3 (20:24):
So you know, I love this line.
Like loss is not contagious,like don't hide from me, avoid
me, avoid the topic.
I even heard that many timesbefore.
You've spoken about it withmany of your guests, and it's
not.
And women don't want to feelthat way.
They don't want to feel that.
Like you know, and again, thisis this, is this, is that
(20:47):
message to other people.
It's only as uncomfortable asyou make it right, like she's
okay, she's comfortable talkingabout her baby.
She wants to make me talk abouther baby and nothing is going
to happen if you come up to her.
And you know, and that the moreof that avoidance is where they
get hurt.
You know, they, you know I'veheard this also like there's a
(21:09):
fear of like everyone's going toforget my baby, right, people
aren't going to remember my baby, and that's a real, you know so
.
So one of the things we talkabout is well, mommy will never
forget her baby, you know, andmost of the time there's most
likely a few different women, afew different people, a few
(21:30):
different um, a therapist, asupport person, a nurse will
never forget your baby, right,and knowing that from the other
end, women want to talk abouttheir babies potentially, or
maybe they don't want to openlyhave conversation, but they
don't want to avoid it.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
Um, I spoke to a woman that um lost her baby and
I think it was a few days.
A few weeks later, hersister-in-law I think it was had
a baby, a boy, the same gender,and 13 years later she was
struggling with it.
She's like, did everyone forgetthat I have a baby, a child the
(22:11):
same age?
Like it was very hard for her,like everyone forgot To them.
Life moved on.
It was a baby.
He didn't live more thanhowever long, but he would be
having a bar mitzvah also.
Now.
It was very like she was in alot of pain 13 years later and
she felt like she had like noplace to go with it.
Because who's listening tosomething that happened 13 years
ago and whatever.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
When you say that it like, yeah, like it's, it's so
hard that is one of the thingsalso they shared, that they are
at you know whether, and here wehave perm coming up, or whether
it's a sitter play, whetherit's a bar mitzvah, an upsharon,
(22:50):
they are following themilestones of the other babies
that were born at the same timeas their baby.
They're following thosemilestones.
They see those, those clothing,that costume, and they do go
there and it brings it up andthey're mourning their babies
and I do think you know it upand they're mourning their
babies.
And I do think, you know, outof sensitivity, if there's
someone in the room that noticesthat and says that and puts
that out there, a lot of mommieswant that, you know, like I
(23:12):
want someone to acknowledge hey,you know, surely it would have
been three.
Yeah, my, surely my Chaim'ssurly would have been three.
Right, Can we?
Speaker 2 (23:23):
just talk about the difference between acknowledging
oh surly would have been three.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
And oh, surly would have been three.
I feel so bad for you, right.
Right, there's a differencebetween and sometimes people
come in and say I don't want tobe pitied, right, and so pity
looks very different thanholding pain, right?
So someone who's experiencedpain for you, right, and I'll
(23:52):
say that to the women after alittle bit of time when they can
start to hear it, most likelythe person is in pain for you,
but as someone supportingsomeone through pain, we have to
be super careful that itdoesn't come out as pity like I
never.
Right.
Back to the tzaddikas, they werechosen for this.
(24:13):
Not such a never right.
Like sad, painful, grief, loss.
They miss their baby, but notnever.
Right, and I'll tell you thatmost of the time I don't think
people look at that.
So I'll remind people of that.
You know how you convey it,right, a mother really caring
for her daughter or um, I'll dothis.
(24:35):
It's a similar feel to likeinfertility, like I don't want
to be looked at as a Nebuch, butI'll say they want for you what
you want, right, and so they'rein pain for your loss, right,
with an infancy, with havinglost their baby.
So we just have to be cautioushow it comes across as well.
Right In supporting them and inacknowledging that you know
(24:58):
it's really yeah, it would havebeen his birthday.
Right In holding space fortheir pain, in opening it up for
them.
Or, you know, sometimes I'lltext if I know it's a yard site,
or if I know it's a birthdaycoming up, I'll text I'm
thinking about baby, you know,baby Sarla with you, I'm
(25:20):
thinking about her.
That that's it.
Something very simple, likethat.
It's just opening it.
Then she can decide.
The mommy can decide if shewants to share more, but to know
that I'm holding space for, youknow, the baby is very
comforting to a mother.
One year, two years, many years, a bas mitzvah oh yeah, baby's
(25:44):
the same time right, right.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
I was talking to someone recently and she was
telling me that her daughter ishaving a baby, right to show,
and I said, oh, what number,number whatever?
I said make up a number.
I said, oh, what number?
Number nine.
And she said, how do you get tonine?
I just just told you she has,you know, x amount of girls and
X amount of boys.
It's number eight.
And I was like, but her twinthat died, she lost a twin.
(26:09):
And she was like, oh, yeah, Iguess, and I'm thinking to
myself, your daughter isthinking about that twin
no-transcript, because she hadone instead of two.
(26:32):
But she, you know, she did it,whatever.
So, yeah, it's something thatreally needs to.
You know, people really need tolike yeah how many?
kids.
Do you have how many?
Speaker 3 (26:40):
kids do you have?
How many kids do you have?
Right, and that that topic hascome up so many times with the
women I work with, with thecouples like what do you want to
say Once that one, you know,backing up a job?
One one thing I'll say aboutgrief, and we know this in the
community there are no rules,right?
(27:00):
I always say put your handsover your heart, what feels
right to you, what feels rightto you, what feels right to you,
and so, as long as within theirfunctioning range or getting up
in the morning, you know I'lljoke around.
I'm like did your kids get outto school today?
Were they dressed?
Yeah, I'm like you're doinggreat.
Did you give them some food onthe way?
If not, someone will give themfood.
(27:20):
We're good to go, right,there's no rules to it, and so
some of these things are soindividual.
How many kids do you have Me?
What do you want to share?
And who is that?
Who is that random?
I don't know you.
Maybe I'm only going to say myfive, right, but someone I feel
a little more connected to, orI'm just feeling that I want to
(27:42):
talk about slowly.
Hi, I'm Sarla.
I'll say yeah, and this I heardonce and I love it and I hold a
lot of space for this I havefive on Aretz and one in
Shemayim, which is a beautifulsentiment.
Right, I have five here and onein Shemayim, and again, the
more comfortable, the morecomfortable year in one shmime,
(28:06):
and again, the more comfortable,the more comfortable, you know.
But again some people mightjust, but I love how you're able
to point out to that mother,like your daughter's, your
daughter's count is 10, not nine, right?
Speaker 2 (28:16):
yeah, right, totally yeah anything else that they
shared with you just going overhere.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
Oh, you know, I think , what they said, like post the
shiva or post the loss, like youknow, the texts or the
condolence cards wereappreciated, you know, right,
like I'm thinking about you or Iknow you've gone through a lot,
I love.
I love also when someone canacknowledge later on, right, not
(28:49):
just acknowledge about the babybut do something for that,
right, I think Glenn spoke aboutthis like post Shiva, I got
your carpools right, I'm goingto take care of dinner for you.
Right, women, like, don'tforget also, depending on when
the loss was, this is also amother who is postpartum, right.
(29:13):
So coming home from a hospitalif the baby had died in the
hospital without a baby is so,so painful.
But she's also a postpartumwoman, right, having gone
through, maybe recently or maybea week or two ago, labor and
delivery.
Right, and she needs to betaken care of, right, she needs
(29:33):
that.
She needs the same kempetertime, right, and the care for
that others need.
And even after that, right, youknow, know, a month later, to
call a friend and say do youwant to go out for lunch?
My treat, send her, um, youknow, a spa package me, just
things like that.
And to the couple as well.
(29:54):
We can get to our husbands andwives and I think you brought
the question but then we tabledit, but I want to just also say
on this what you're saying, thatit's funny because I was just
rereading the book.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
You know the part that I wrote for the friends.
Um, you know, a woman couldfeel like it's very important
how you say it.
If you say, are you goingthrough such a hard time?
What could I do for you?
Or could I go to the store foryou, they might be like, no, I'm
good.
But if you say very liketargeted, I'm in the store now I
do need bread or cheese, theymight say, oh, I don't need
(30:25):
bread or cheese, but I reallyneed cream cheese.
Or you know, I'm gonna be inthe neighborhood anyways, I know
tuesday's your carpool day.
Can I do it for you this week?
Like that comes across as likeoh well, thank you no, no, pity,
right, right, and that's yeah,yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
One other thing that I see wrote down was, you know,
kind of back to that loss is notcontagious, that if a woman is
opening up or if a couple istalking about their baby, go
with it, stay with it, stay withthem and not try to.
You know, one of the women'slike I learned, it's not so
socially appropriate to talkabout dead babies, right, like
(31:05):
that's so sad, right, why, right.
And then you know they talkabout the, the humor, and you
know um in it.
But but why not?
Why can't we sociallyappropriately talk about a baby
that has died?
Why not?
Why can't we give space to thatbaby?
(31:26):
totally, totally so you wouldask about shalm bias.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
Repeat the question, just so I I asked you really how
this affects shalm bias, bothfor good and for bad.
But really, what I really wantto say is what happens if, like
one of the spouses, are anaddict.
Speaker 3 (31:47):
I think if that's ever happened, you're just like
collided my specialties together.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
I'm sure it's happened.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
Unfortunately, there's a lot of addiction.
Yeah, or the loss leads toaddiction, like they become, you
know, find their copingmechanism.
Um, how affects shun bias.
So I I really think it can goeither way, right, we see, and I
can't give a percentage to itwe see both.
(32:16):
We see couples that can fallapart, crumble because of a loss
, through a loss, and we seecouples that become stronger and
more bonded.
And when I do work with couples, I'll have to educate them a
lot on the differences betweenmale and female, between husband
(32:37):
wife, that your grief is goingto look great, no rules here.
Your grief will look verydifferent than her grief and his
grief will look very different.
And what his coping mechanismof you know, I'm going out to
play basketball.
She may need to just sit on thecouch and be helped, right, I'm
getting stereotypical with menand women, but it could be
(33:00):
totally flipped that the malealso is just needs that space,
and I have a few reallyexcellent male colleagues who
specialize in just seeing herhusband and supporting the
husband.
You need just as much support,right, in different ways.
And so the same to the thing,to that like guy's best friend.
Hey, how you doing?
(33:20):
You want to talk, we want to goget you know something to drink
, right.
So finding space for, for youknow, educating the couple and
supporting the couple to supporteach other, right, and this
kind of goes back to and Ialways say this is couples
therapy.
Anyways, like they won't knowwhat you need.
No one is a mind reader, right.
And so I will have to clearlysay to you right, I really want
(33:45):
to talk about our baby now.
Right, I really want to justsit on the couch right now.
I really just, I need to go tobed, I need to shut down.
Can you take care of everythingelse?
Right.
And if we can't, you know, I'lltell the woman, like, if you
don't communicate it, no onewill know.
You know even me as a therapist, I'll invite them in and say
(34:06):
I'm not going to get everythingright.
So if I don't get it right,like you got to tell me also if
I'm missing something or ifthere's something that's going
on that you want me to know.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
And what happens if one of the spouses really want
to talk about the baby and theother spouse just can't?
It's too painful for them.
Speaker 3 (34:24):
Right.
So then I'll encourage likesometimes not everything is for
the spouse Could be that that'swhat friends are for, that's
what a therapist is for, that'swhat a rub is for, right, and so
when we give that to thecouples early on in the process,
they'll be able to navigate ita little smoother right, just a
(34:45):
little bit, with a little bitless tension in what is already
very painful space that we couldsay maybe she doesn't want to
talk about it.
Do you have a rough to yourbest friend?
Maybe your brother could justgo schmooze with them, right's?
Speaker 2 (35:01):
you know, sometimes it's like they just need to be,
have the ideas introduced tothem and then they're like, so
open to it, like, oh, okay, yeahme like really they don't say
but this is my spouse, I wentthrough the loss together with
him or her, so I want thatperson to be the one to talk to
me that's what they'll startwith.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
but then, once they got this, and it's really
education how different each oneis and how they each to
different needs, and that's okayand let's honor that space, and
they may come back a differenttime and be able to hold it, but
that's really okay, right, andthere's nothing wrong with each
other.
That that's what their responseis Right.
(35:42):
Wow, each other.
That that's what their responseis right.
Well, like, how many rebbeimare holding, holding their
talmud, holding theirconstituents through, through a?
Speaker 2 (35:54):
loss.
There's a lot.
I spoke to a mother that lost achild, an older son, not a baby
, and her husband couldn't talkabout it and at first it was
hard for her, like she had had ahard time, like if they were
talking together to someone elseand someone you know brought up
her son's name, he would changehis name, just walk out of the
room, whatever it was, and itwas hard.
He's a very hushed up personand eventually, as time went on,
(36:25):
his I guess Talmidim or maybehe them, and his wife said to me
it's all because of me.
Like I had to really like teachhim how to support me or how
I'm supporting him, and it wasvery interesting how he became
so good at doing what he doesfrom not even doing it the real
way with his wife, you know,right, yeah, so, yeah, um, I
(36:48):
wanted to ask you something.
Yeah, could we talk about, um,if, let's say, someone has
fertility issues and then theygo through this kind of loss?
Speaker 3 (36:56):
Yeah, yeah, the loss is loss.
So we can't I don't I don'tlove to put them on like gauging
things but a loss afterfertility treatment.
So someone goes through ivf,you know they have their um
embryos freezing, right, andsome have a few and some have
(37:18):
many, and then they experience aloss and it's rough, right.
So again, not comparing losses.
You're still losing a baby,right, there is there's a
shattering to it because, don'tforget, they were also in my
office going through all theinfertility, right.
So it's really, really there's.
(37:40):
There's more of a maybe I wantto use the word devastation that
comes with it rather than youknow, again, I don't love it.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
Is it feeling a little bit like hopeless, that
my dream is never going tomaterialize?
Like other mothers that havehad babies know that they could
still have their dreams.
Speaker 3 (37:56):
Yes, so not only did I, could I not get pregnant on
my own right?
Did this not work normally theway the regular people do?
I also can't even.
My baby can't even live Right.
There's a lot I know, I know, Iknow it's, it's, it's yes, yeah
(38:17):
.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
Yeah, and the kinds of empathy and support that they
need from their spouse andtheir family.
I guess it's really the same.
They have to explain what theyneed, their spouse and their
family.
I guess it's really the same.
They have to explain what theyneed.
Speaker 3 (38:29):
Yeah, and that's it.
Yeah, it's.
You know, the hopelessness Ithink in in in many areas can
get very like deep and hard.
You know, and helping a coupleand supporting a woman through,
you know again, lack of betterword of acceptance that this is
(38:52):
right now, but we don't know.
Right, and then that's, I think, the hardest part.
I explain um our lives aschapter books.
So, whatever age you're in,you're, let's say, a young girl
comes and she's 25, right, soyou're in chapter 25.
And chapter 22 to 25 was allthis infertility treatment and
testing and this.
(39:13):
And then at 25, this happens,right, this, you were pregnant
and then you had this loss.
I said we don't know whatchapter 27 and 30 is going to
look like.
Right, it's very hard andunsettling that we don't, we
can't.
Sometimes I'm always like Ijust wish I had that glass ball.
Right, it's very hard andunsettling that we don't, we
can't.
Sometimes I'm always like Ijust wish I had that glass ball.
Right, like I wish glass ball.
Phone call with God, like hey,could you just give me a sneak
(39:35):
preview.
And they think, miriam, likewe're kind of living in those
times now.
Right, like, talk just aboutthe loss that's going on with
cholesterol, like just holdingspace for the VBAS family, like
there's tremendous loss rightnow, right, and we don't know.
We don't know what just twomonths from now will look like,
(39:56):
right, we don't know what nextyear will look like.
And that, I think, is a hardplace, while sitting in pain, to
go through.
And many people in differentareas right, and I have to stay
in my lane but knowing thatwe're from Yidden have to find
the source of how do I find thathope right?
(40:18):
Where do I look for it?
Who do I get it from?
And different people havedifferent avenues of that.
The support calls, maybe theyare continuously meaning, right,
and this isn't something wewould say to them, but this is
something they would maybe cometo like.
Maybe they want to actively beworking on their Amuna, right,
(40:40):
whether it's through learning asafer, whether it's through
calls, whether it's through justsitting, you know, with a rub
and finding the hope right,finding, you know, even before
the hope we talk about findingmeaning right, and I mean
there's nothing like findingmeaning in the organization of
(41:01):
Mayreem, right?
What do I do with this loss?
And I start an organization,then I support others, then I
counsel others.
Every single person who hasgone through experience will
then go finding I heardsomething so beautiful One woman
who lost her baby.
She started a baby, a briskamach.
(41:22):
One woman started A briskamach.
There's no li'il nishmas forright, they don't need their
nisham was pure.
So it's the least time again,I'm not the rough, but that's
the general idea that we'veshared and so they don't need
the li'ilu nishmas.
But that mommy wants to dosomething and it's so beautiful.
(41:44):
One opens a brisk gamach andone opens.
We talk about what did you dowith some of the clothing?
Let's say this baby lived.
She went and she made a gamachwith all the clothing she had
received of her baby that livedsix months.
Wow, wow.
That's so huge that people canthen find meaning do something
(42:06):
right, make an organization andwe don't have to go jump to
organizations.
That's big, right, right, butnot everyone is Glenn and
Suggies.
Speaker 2 (42:14):
And we don't even have to go to making a gemach.
It could be something simplesaying an extra parak of
tehillim every day, or sayingI'm saying this, bracha, I'm
going to have in mind my baby.
Speaker 3 (42:25):
Yeah, I love women who we've talked about.
What do you do on the birthday?
What do you do on the birthday?
And a lot of women have donewith their other kids.
They have other kids.
They've done brachos parties.
We're going to do a brachaparty.
On Shabbos, they'll do a brachaparty, different things that
women find, because not havingthat real initialist part I
(42:45):
think is a hard piece, becausehow do I hold on and how do I
make space and how do I continue?
And so these small littlethings, right, taking on
something on themselves is.
I recently had a relative, um,very special woman, um, um,
esther Rosenbaum.
(43:06):
She was in in in Lakewood.
She's a mental passed away andat the Shiva she was.
She was older but she was sickAt the Shiva.
Her daughters were telling methat 11 years ago, when she got
sick, she took on to lightcandles early and I was
impressed and it's alwayssomething you hear about, light
candles early and I'm like, notme, and just that Shabbos.
(43:28):
I decided, you know what, justfor Esther, I'm going to light
candles early this week and I'vedone it for three weeks now.
I don't know if it's going tostick, but it helps me hold
space for her.
But for Bibi there's different.
You know, ask your mom aboutlighting another candle.
(43:48):
Some do, some don't right,there's different different
different ideas, but I thinkwhen the hope comes in, when you
find something or somewhere toyou know, really channel right,
Channel that love, channel thatloss into something right
(44:09):
Channel that love, channel thatloss into something.
Speaker 2 (44:10):
And I also want to say, for those mothers that
don't like hearing, that theydon't need an Aaliyah as a baby.
I don't even know what age youwere referring to, but it
doesn't matter because for mybook, the sack that I got was
actually yeah, they could alwaysuse an Aaliyah, no matter what,
and he explains it a little bit.
I'm not going to go into itbecause it's like very deep for
me, but if mothers like want to,going to go into because it's
like very deep for me, yeah, um,but if mothers like wanna, you
(44:31):
know again, ask your own love,but there's you know every,
every way, right, so right.
I mean listen, we, we cancontinuously do all the time
like that's not a right, right,right there's no harm, but I
think, you know, according to mystaff, it could still help the
baby, even if the baby was fiveminutes old.
Ok, ok.
Speaker 3 (44:49):
But again, I think you know, just kind of dipping
into this for a minute, thehalakhic aspects, what's halakha
and what's recommended, and itwill always turn it back.
You know, you know, get someclarity on that.
You know, you know, get someclarity on that right.
(45:11):
Working with a woman this weekthat said, oh, I'm not allowed
to talk about the baby, and Italked to the baby, I'm sorry,
talk to the baby, oh, okay.
And so I said just get someclarity on what that means.
Talk to the baby or dive intothe right.
Like you know, you can't diveinto the person that's dead, but
we ask them to be a militia,like all those things.
When women say it, I just wantto make sure they have clarity
(45:34):
on it and it feels good for themand comfortable and deciphering
like I'll always support womenand just decipher what's halacha
versus recommended, what youwant to do.
And that's where the like not alot of rules come in.
Like, not a lot of rules comein.
There's not a lot of rules right.
Speaker 2 (45:52):
Wow, okay.
So before we end, I want to askyou if there's anything that we
, you know, didn't cover.
But I just want to share thiswith you because I think you
might like it.
I don't know, for me it likemade a lot of sense.
I was listening to.
It was actually in a Muna Shiraor whatever, but the speaker
was saying he was quoting Ithink it was a Gaish author even
, I don't know.
But about back to the empathy,you know, like don't say like oh
(46:13):
, how are you, how are you doing?
But like how are you today?
And I felt like that one wordjust changes the whole tone and
the whole like meaning of thesentence.
So I think that's like I don'tknow.
That touched me.
I wanted to share that.
Speaker 3 (46:27):
Yeah, and I love that because lately I've been having
this conversation with severaldifferent people, the how are
you?
And like great, what do you?
Like Good, like, in all honesty, I'm having a hard day, right,
so I love that.
That like how are you doingtoday is so targeted.
One thing I would add like thewomen said, like I do think,
(46:52):
like you know, I've asked manytimes like what has brought you
comfort?
And I think that what hasbrought you comfort, you know
what's brought you comfort?
And I think the idea that theyknow again, not initially this
is hard for anyone to hear inthe moments, right, but within,
with time, right, and althoughit's the worst saying it's
(47:14):
actually true, time heals.
Right, there's a healingprocess and again, it ebbs and
flows like acceptance.
It ebbs and flows like amoonwalk, but time does.
So when I have a woman on thecall who's like some people get
on the call one week post theloss and then there'll be other
(47:35):
women on the call that will justbe able to say you won't feel
like this in six months, youwon't right now feel it.
You're going to feel it, butthe idea of I can't go on, I
don't know how I'm going tomanage, how can I live are very
raw, you know, right awayfeelings.
And then that time and whateveryone has to do during that
(47:57):
grief and that mourning periodperiod.
It keeps going right.
We know that about it.
There's no end to it.
It's going to come right.
It's when it's going to come.
It's important for those youknow no end to it.
It's going to come right whenit's going to come.
Um, it's important for those youknow for, for us to know, and
the piece that gives a lot ofwomen comfort is, you know, that
idea and again, staying.
(48:17):
You know, this is this is outof my lane, but just from
sharing from from many of thewomen that I've worked with,
that, the idea when they canreally, you know, accept the
idea of that this baby's tikkunpurpose was only for this amount
of time, right, and my purposewas to be this baby's mother for
(48:40):
this amount of time, fromseconds to hours, to months,
right, that's like a big youknow of all the things I've
heard of reasons, becausethere's, I want to know why.
There is that piece of like,wanting to know why, and this I
think is one of the biggestparts that like holds a little
(49:01):
space for that question.
Speaker 2 (49:05):
But I just want to add also that these two things
that you just mentioned, youknow that it won't be like this
forever and you will feel better.
And you just said about the why.
Um, it could only come fromsomeone that went through it,
and I think that's veryimportant.
Speaker 3 (49:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:21):
Yeah, okay, amazing.
So thank you so so much forcoming on.
Thank you for having me.
You have come across as a veryempathetic and I think whoever
listens to this is going to likeit.
Okay, amazing.
So thank you so so much forcoming on.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 3 (49:31):
You, I come across as very empathetic and I think
whoever listens to this is goingto like it.
So thank you so much.
Thank you, I appreciate youhaving me.
Speaker 1 (49:36):
You've just listened to an episode of the Relief from
Grief podcast with MiriamRiviat, brought to you by Mayrim
.
For more episodes, visit theMayrim website at wwwmayrimorg.
Help us reach more people whomight benefit from this podcast.
If you know someone who couldfind it helpful, please share it
with them.
If you have questions orcomments for the speaker, or if
(49:59):
you'd like to suggest a guestfor the podcast, we'd love to
hear from you.
Email us at relieffromgrief atmayrimorg.
We look forward to having youjoin us in the next episode.
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