He was a precious little boy, born with cystic fibrosis. For nine and a half years, Aryeh Zev lived a life full of struggle — but also full of determination, and friendship. Despite frequent hospital trips, he went to school and built strong friendships. He even had a special connection with the Ribnitzer Rebbe, who recognized the holiness of his neshamah.
Now, forty years later, Dr. Hindie M. Klein’s grandchild just got married. At the Sheva Brachos, they spoke about Aryeh Zev — because his memory is still alive. His parents never let go of their beloved son’s presence in their lives.
In this deeply honest episode, Dr. Hindie M. Klein shares how she and her husband each grieved in their own way — and how they learned to respect one another’s needs. While they were able to do big projects l’iluy nishmas their son, she reminds us that quiet acts of tzedakah or private mitzvos done at home are just as meaningful.
And if you ever want to see the shoes of a little nine-year-old boy who left a huge imprint on the world — you can knock on Dr. Klein’s door. She still knows exactly where they are.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the Relief from Grief podcast, hosted by
Mrs Miriam Rebiet and brought toyou by Mayrim.
Mayrim is an organizationdedicated to supporting families
who have experienced the lossof a child.
It was founded by IloyNishmat's, nechama Liba and
Miriam Holman.
Despite her illness, miriamdevoted herself to addressing
(00:22):
the needs of parents andsiblings grappling with the
immense pain of losing a child.
She felt this loss deeply,having experienced it firsthand
when her older sister, nechamaLiba, passed away.
Mehrim continues to uplift andexpand on the work Miriam began,
a mission carried forward byher parents with great
dedication.
(00:43):
If you have any questions orcomments for the speaker, or if
you'd like to suggest a guestfor the podcast, please email us
at relieffromgrief at mayrimorg.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Hi everybody.
Thank you so much for joiningme here today on the Relief from
Grief podcast by Mayrim.
Today I'm very, very excited tohave Dr Hindi M Klein, who is a
psychologist and apsychoanalyst in private
practice, but she's also theformer director of TICFA at OHEL
for many, many years, so I'm soexcited to have you on.
Thank you so, so much forcoming on.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
Thank you for having me.
I'm honored to be on thispodcast and I think that you
know I know this is a part ofMayrim's program and I think the
Mayrim program is wonderful andvery helpful and meaningful to
so many families.
I'm a very big fan of Sagit andGlenn's.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
And I'm just honored to be asked to be here.
Hey, well, I have to agree withyou.
They are really they areincredible people.
What they do is amazing.
Okay, so it's an honor for us tohave you because of what you do
in your practice, but besides,for that, you are a bereaved
mother, and one of the reasonsthat I so badly wanted you to
come on is because what you haveto tell people I don't know I
(01:57):
almost want to say the wordoffer, but it sounds like I
don't know is that you lost yourson so many years ago and I
think people like would love tohear about that.
The pain, like it becomes partof you.
You don't forget your child.
You move, you can continuegoing on in life, you can have
very happy moments and you knowgood times, but that loss is
always part of you and youalways stay connected to your
(02:18):
child, and I think parents needto hear you're not forgetting
your child, no matter what.
So why don't we start off alittle bit about your son with?
You know his name, how old hewas, what happened, right?
Speaker 3 (02:27):
So our child's name was Aryezav Klein.
He was a magnificent andwonderful little boy who died of
cystic fibrosis when he wasnine and a half years old.
Today he would be 50 years old.
He died 40, ervsukis, which ishis yard site, was his 40th yard
site.
So it's been many, many yearsand there's usually never a day
(02:52):
that I don't think about him.
His pictures, and differentpictures, are all over the house
.
But I think that what's mostsignificant about this is that
and this is what came out, Ithink, the very first time I
went to a May Rim weekend, aretreat, several years ago, and
I ran a group for women, ofbereaved women.
Some of them were newcomers,some of them were old, you know,
had been there already beforeand I spoke a little bit about.
(03:15):
I didn't right away think Iwanted to speak about them,
because I didn't want it to beabout me, I wanted it to be
about the group.
But then I realized and I, youknow, I was coming in as a
psychologist, as the therapist.
But then I realized it would behave much more meaning if I
would talk about it not onlyfrom a clinical, psychological
point of view but also from apersonal point of view.
So I shared at that time.
I think I had been gone 37years and I shared that.
(03:38):
You know we lost a child 37years ago and I talked about.
You know how we function andwhat we do and how he was so
inspiring to us and how we stillare able to have joy and
happiness and shep a lot ofnachas from our other children
and grandchildren and you knowwe could still maintain such a
high level of simchas achayim.
And afterwards people came overto me.
(03:58):
Quite a few women came over tome and said they can't believe
that our child died so manyyears ago and that I'm still
functioning and that I functionso well and that I could still
have happiness and joy.
And like I always say, I thinkabout Aria every day but I'm
still great at parties, like Ican walk into a party and have
(04:20):
the best time and laugh and thisand sing and dance at weddings
and functions and events.
That doesn't mean there's not apart of your soul that is
always there, that is alwaysthinking of him and always
there's a little how would I sayit?
I always envision it as inside,my very warm heart is a little
cold place that's kind of lockedup, but inside there is always
(04:44):
like, not that he's cold, he'svery warm in my heart, but it's
like a little separate placethat's kind of locked up, but
inside there is always like, notthat he's cold, he's very warm
in my heart, but it's like alittle separate place that's
always there and kind of securethere.
It's like he never, ever leaves.
Years later you could have awonderful life and you could
have an accomplished life.
I mean, my whole career wasinspired by him.
My doctoral dissertation is inmemory of him.
(05:06):
So I guess the lesson is is that, with all the grief that you go
through and of course there'sdifferent coping mechanisms that
different people use, but wecould talk about that and how I
functioned and what you know,the story and so on but despite
all of that, you could stillmaintain a happy life, a good
(05:27):
life, a meaningful life, ameaningful life for your other
children, which is so importantBecause if you slump too much
into grief and depression, youwill not be available to your
other children and you need tobe available for your other
children and, ultimately, yourgrandchildren and, of course, to
your husband and your husbandto you, to maintain a healthy
marriage.
So there's a part of you thathas to always remember and
(05:49):
grieve, to whatever extent, andthen there's a part of you that
has to live, and live asjoyously as possible.
So I don't know if you want meto talk a little bit more about
Aryeh specifically.
He was a very courageous andbrilliant and wonderful little
boy who I just want to interruptyou because this is going audio
(06:09):
.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
I want to tell all the listeners that, as you
mentioned his name, even thoughit's so many years, your whole
smile, like your whole face,lights up with a smile, like
he's smiling to you, and Ithought that was really nice
when I saw that.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
It's true he was such a cute kid, he was such a funny
and brilliant little boy.
He was very bright.
So he used to do things thatwere like very funny and very
bright.
And I can give you just a cutelittle example when he was two
and a half years old myhusband's a scientist, so when
he was two and a half years oldhe was sitting in the kitchen.
He was diagnosed at eightmonths.
(06:42):
So he was always very slightand physically, cognitively, was
fine, but he was sitting atthis little.
You know there's little kiddietables with the little chairs.
It's a little red.
You know tables that you havefor the children in the kitchen.
He's sitting at the kitchen andthere's a glass of orange juice
.
I'd give him a little cup oforanges.
So he took the orange juice andhe, very methodical he knew
exactly what he was doing and hespilled it on the floor.
(07:04):
He's like watching it spill onthe floor.
I said I, sweetie, what are youdoing?
He goes, mommy, I did not do it, gravity did it.
This is what he was like at twoand a half.
We used to make him memorizesquare roots.
So he would go places and wewould say to him uh, what's the
square root of 81?
Nine, what's the square root ofnine Three?
(07:26):
And it was like rote, hememorized it, he had a great
memory and he was a very brightlittle boy and very special and
unfortunately he sufferedterribly.
We were in and out of thehospitals for nine and a half
years and he suffered terriblyand finally he couldn't take it
anymore.
So you know it was.
I can't say it wasn't torture.
(07:47):
It was torture being in and outof the hospitals.
It is torture watching a childwho you love very much die.
You're watching him die.
It's not, like you know inother situations.
It's worse in other ways.
Like God forbid, there's a caraccident or something sudden, so
you're not expecting that childto die.
So it's a different type ofgrief, because it's so sudden
and it's so shocking and, oh myGod, one minute the child is
(08:09):
there and healthy and beautiful,and the next minute the child
is gone.
So that's a different type ofgrief.
And there's another.
I mean it's all under grief.
But then there's the grief thatwhen you know you're, it was
diagnosed at eight months old.
He died at nine and a half andconstantly in the hospital,
constantly sick.
And you know and you'rewatching this child deteriorate,
(08:30):
and that's a different type oftorture.
So, quite frankly, it's alltorturous.
It's all torturous.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
There's no way.
Let me ask you like this,though like by the time he was
nifter, he probably didn't looklike when someone loses someone
in a car accident very suddenly,they could still I mean, unless
their body was, you know whoknows what they could still look
like themselves beautiful,right, you probably saw those
like you probably saw him at theend when he didn't look so
beautiful.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
By the time, by the time he died, he was terribly
emaciated because he wasn't justabsorbing, you know, part of
cystic fibrosis they can'tabsorb food well because there's
pancreatic issues and there'slung issues.
It's basically a disease of thepancreas and the digestive and
the lungs.
So he happened to have a badcase, you know, and it's
nowadays.
There are different, even thenthere are different levels.
(09:17):
Some people have a very mildcase, so they don't have such
bad lung involvement.
They're not constantly, youknow, their lungs are not
constantly infected, they'reabsorbing food better.
So he had a pretty heavy dutycase on both ends.
So it was pretty difficult andso by the time he died he was
just very, very frail.
But cognitively, brain wise, hewas intact to the very, very
(09:41):
end, intact to the very, to thevery, very end, intact to the
very, very end, I mean.
I think that.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
How long did it take for you to think of him as his
regular, healthiest self,instead of having the picture of
his sick and dying self?
Because I think that peoplestruggle with that.
When someone is nifter and theydidn't look so well, people say
like gosh, these memories arestuck in my head.
I don't remember them laying inthe hospital.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
I have a lot of pictures of Aryeh when he was.
I have pictures of Aryeh whenhe was towards the end also, and
those are around also.
But I have other pictures ofhim with the other children and
when he was healthier and morerobust, and they're all over the
house.
You know, there's some peoplewho say, oh, the person died,
like we don't have pictures ofthem anymore, we don't get
pictures of round, it's toopainful.
(10:24):
So I say the opposite.
I say the opposite Embrace it,celebrate the child that he was
and yes, it's horrible that he'snot around anymore, that the
child is not around, butcelebrate the beauty and
everybody's different, likesomebody will say well, you
didn't even have thatopportunity.
We had a stillborn or we had achild who died in infancy, so we
(10:45):
didn't have that opportunity tocollect pictures of better
times, of healthier times.
So each person has to be.
I guess, when we're working withgrief with people, every
situation is different.
Every situation has to beworked with that person and how
they're handling it and all theother factors in terms of are
they getting a lot of supportfrom family, from friends, from
(11:08):
each other?
You know, spouse wise, so everysingle situation is different.
In my situation.
I had nine years of pictures ofhim, from the time he was a
baby till, you know, till hedied.
So some of the pictures aremore robust and they're all over
the house.
I will not put away pictures ofthem and I'm very, very, I'm
(11:28):
very, very mindful that whenpeople say to me, you know,
because this is a big questionthat comes up and I've worked
with this in the groups a bigquestion comes up.
When they say to me you know,how many children do you have?
So you know I have two children.
I have two beautiful livingchildren and grandchildren and
so on.
But I will never say twochildren.
I always say I have threechildren, always.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
And what happens when they go further?
Oh gross, when they go further.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
So then I will say I have two children and I say one
of our oldest child passed awaywhen he was a little boy.
Very simple, I don't make a bigfanfare out of it and sometimes
you're scared to say it becauseyou're scared of the reaction.
Oh my God, they fanfare out ofit and you know, sometimes
you're scared to say it becauseyou're scared of the reaction.
Oh my God, they're going tofeel so uncomfortable.
So they have to deal with itand I'm more than happy to talk
about it and I'm more than happyto explain it in a lovely way.
(12:12):
But I will not deny hisexistence because of somebody
else's discomfort.
So I will say it.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
When your girls were growing up and they like you
know high school or camp, whenthey met new friends, were they
also very comfortable alwayssaying that they well, I raised
them that way.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
I have a son.
I have after Yaka was born Iyou know the story with the
ribbon it's a Rebbe that mydaughter, malky, was born nine
months, literally to the dayTuesday, and Yaakov was also
(12:52):
born after that, a few yearslater.
I went to the Rebbe and Sarebafive times for various brachos
and we met and it was veryspecial and so I have one
daughter and one son, and Aryeh,and then Malka and then Yaakov.
And I think because we grew up,they grew up always knowing
about Aryeh.
(13:12):
Well, malki was five when hedied.
Yaakov was 15 months.
So Malky remembers him veryclearly.
Yaakov doesn't really, butthrough the pictures.
Aryeh loved Yaakov because hewas a baby, so we used to cuddle
him and say, oh, I have like mylittle baby brother.
So he loved him, not that hedidn't love Malky, but it was a
different kind of relationship.
So they grew up with knowingthat Aryeh is very much in
(13:34):
existence on some level andthere are his pictures and we
talk about him when the kidswere like older, not babies, but
when they were older, like youknow, pre-teenage already.
When we go to the cemetery, likeyou know, between Rosh Hashanah
and Yom Kippur.
His yard site is Erev Sukkot,so usually we weren't able to go
.
It's too hectic to go on hisyard site.
So we would go between RoshHashanah and Yom Kippur.
You know, when everybody goesto the cemetery, that's when we
(13:56):
would go as well and we wouldtake them along.
I would say, you know, I wouldsay, okay, kids, we're going to
do group and we would kind ofstand around the kever and like
talk, what would you like to sayto Aryeh, what would you like
to share with him?
Now some people will a lot ofpeople think that what I'm doing
is weird, like that.
I'm taking children to thecemetery and we're happy, we're
(14:16):
talking.
But I didn't feel that way andthe kids didn't feel that way.
So the kids were verycomfortable with the knowledge
that he was a very speciallittle boy who was sick and who
died.
But that doesn't mean he doesn'tremain in his in our existence.
As a matter of fact, mydaughter just married off her
first child.
My grandson got married and itwas really beautiful at the
(14:37):
Afrof.
I wasn't expecting it at all.
Anki spoke at one point, Ithink during Shalashodes, and my
son-in-law spoke and they allmentioned him at the Friday
night dinner, of the Afrofdinner, and they were speaking
about the people in the family,my parents, different
grandparents that are not hereanymore with us, and I did not
(14:57):
think that they would mentionDariyeh necessarily.
And they all mentioned Dariyeh,they all mentioned Dariyeh and
my Yaakov when he makes asimchat, they all mention him,
like he's really part of thefamily, and I think it's just
the attitude that you give thatyou're not locking up this
memory and saying, oh no, wecan't look at the pictures, we
(15:19):
can't talk about them, himanymore, or her anymore, because
you know she doesn't exist.
She very much does exist andwe've kept him alive in certain
ways.
I mentioned this to you, miriam.
You know, at Yeshiva ChaimBerlin, the Yeshiva Katana of
Chaim Berlin, there is abeautiful children's library.
So the children's library atChaim Berlin is the Ariye Zev
Klein Memorial Library.
And then in Israel andYerushalayim we have a gan in
(15:40):
the Muslim quarter.
We have a gan in the Muslimquarter and it's called Gan
Aryeh.
It's on the roof of a building.
This is from an organization,an amazing organization called
Atteret Kohanim.
They buy properties in theMuslim quarter and then they put
from families into the buildingand they came to us and they
said you know, we're going tohave five families living in
this tall building.
(16:00):
There's nowhere for the kids toplay, they can't play on the
streets, they'll be murdered.
So they wanted to create aplayground on the roof of this
building and I went up to lookat the place.
And I came up to the roof ofthe building and I looked across
and I saw the Har Habayis and Isaid, yeah, this is for him,
this is where he's going to be.
So we have a beautiful,beautiful park, you know, a
(16:21):
playground that's called GanAryeh.
So you look for ways toperpetuate his memory.
Instead of burying his memory,you look for ways to celebrate
his life Instead of only youhave to grieve his loss also,
but instead of only grieving theloss, you look for ways of
(16:43):
celebration.
Look at what Glenn and Sagit dowith Meirim they celebrate
their children, they celebratethe memories of their children,
and this is the way youperpetuate the person's memory
and you bring manukha toyourself and to others.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
And what happens, though, if your spouse is not on
board?
Let's say, your husband says Ican't look at pictures.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
Then don't look.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
I'm keeping them out.
You just don't look.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
No, they're in certain parts of the house.
Well, I never had that issue.
I hear that could be an issue.
So because we were so alltogether on this, it was just so
together.
It was like a no brainer typeof thing.
We were so together on this.
There was never.
There was never even like a.
There was never either like Ihad to.
It wasn't as if I had todiscuss with my husband.
Okay, so we're going to put outthe pictures.
(17:31):
How do you feel about that?
It wasn't even a question.
Of course we're going to be sonow.
So that was my experience.
So you're asking a greatquestion what happens if the one
spouse says I can't, I justcan't, please don't.
So then you have to negotiatethat.
So then you might want to putout a picture or two, but maybe
(17:52):
not in a place that isconstantly like walk through.
Like you know, I happen to havea buffet in one part of my
house where I have all differentphotographs of the parents, you
know, the grandparents, theAlta Babas and Zaidas and all
that.
So I have a whole area.
I have pictures of Aryeh therealso and Aryeh with the children
, with Malik and Yaakov whenthey were younger.
So I have pictures there, but Ihave other pictures of him in
(18:12):
more prominent areas, like youknow, in the kitchen, whatever.
So let's say the person says no, I can't.
So then maybe you wouldn't putit in an area that they would
constantly look at it, you know,on a desk by the computer or in
the kitchen.
You would put it maybe in alittle bit of a corner, or maybe
you wouldn't do it at all.
I don't think it's necessarilysuch a wise idea to banish all
(18:33):
memories or all pictures.
Personally don't think it's agood idea.
As I said, the memory and thelife should be celebrated to
whatever extent.
But some people who can'thandle it, then I think those
are the people who maybe wouldbenefit from help, from some
clinical intervention and reallylooking at their grief, because
obviously they're going througha grief response that really
(18:54):
doesn't allow them to go there,which is understandable.
And you have to understandsomething I'm already 40 year
veteran, so to speak.
So it's not the same intensityas it was the first two years,
five years, 10 years.
The first few years was hell itwas.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
it was very, very.
I wanted to ask you about that,like you started off in the
beginning with, you know thatyou always feel the pain and you
have that cold spot in yourheart, but you're still a parody
girl.
But were you a parody girlright after, or did it take five
years or 10 years until youcould really go talk to someone
and enjoy?
Speaker 3 (19:28):
I don't think it took five years.
It took.
It took a couple of years.
I remember a memory distinctlyI was doing an internship, I was
doing my doctoral internship,and I was driving to work every
day to Brookdale Hospital inBrooklyn.
It was like a 20-minute drive.
It was after Shloshim, so Iwould drive to work and I would
be very sad.
And then I love music.
(19:49):
I'm a big music person and Ilove music.
And I used to say, no, I'm not.
You know, during Shloshim youcan't listen to music, right,
but after Shloshim you'reallowed to listen to music.
When it's a loss of a child,you're allowed to do everything.
After Shloshim you're allowedto do.
So I said, no, I'm notlistening to music because I
don't care if it's Shloshim ornot, shloshim I.
So one day I was like, really,I really want to and I said you
(20:13):
know what God runs the world?
If God says you could listen tomusic after 30 days, then I
could listen to music after 30days.
And guess what, one day, on theway home from the hospital, I
put on the radio or I put on atape of a particular singer that
I love, and what I found was Istarted sobbing and crying,
because listening to the musicwas so therapeutic for me.
(20:36):
It was so soothing andtherapeutic for me that I would,
from then on, I would driveback and forth to the hospital
and listen to music because itwas therapeutic for me.
Did I go to weddings or parties?
Most probably I did, maybe notright away.
Weddings or parties?
Most probably I did, maybe notright away.
I know my mother-in-law.
My husband lost a sister and mymother-in-law did not go out for
(21:00):
10 years.
She didn't go anywhere.
She refused to pretty muchleave the house.
She never went to weddings orevents or anything like that.
I think it was about 10 yearsthat she didn't go anywhere and
she refused.
And we would say you know, know, I knew you could go already,
you're allowed.
No, no, no.
She really grieved very terriblyfor pami, who was a wonderful,
wonderful young lady who diedvery suddenly, uh, of a, of an
(21:21):
aneurysm, um.
So you know she couldn't do it.
I was able to do it because Iwas able to mourn him in
different ways, like I was ableto listen to music, and that was
part of my mourning, that I waslistening to music and having
memories of him and crying andsobbing sometimes, but it was
very therapeutic for me.
(21:42):
So you have to find what worksfor you and if you are, if you
can in other words, not to feelguilty, if you can do it, you
can do it.
And also you have to, I think,also be at a certain where you
have to think of your other kids.
You have to think of your otherchildren.
If you're going to be highlydepressed and non-functional or
(22:05):
anxious or whatever yoursymptomology is and it affects
your relationship and yourattachment with your other
children, with your spouse, thenthat's something that you
really need to get help with sothat you can be engaged and
loving and happy with your otherchildren.
It doesn't mean that you loveAryeh or your child any less and
(22:26):
it doesn't mean that you missthem any less.
It just means that you'reopening your heart wider to
embrace all the other love thatyou want to give and that you
want to receive.
So I don't know if that answersyour question.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
I think that's like the fear that people have, that
like if I look so happy, if I goto the wedding and I dance and
I laugh and I talk, then itlooks like I don't remember, and
I don't want anyone to thinkthat I don't remember my child.
I think that's a fear thatpeople have a lot of times.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
It could be.
It could be, but I think thatyou need to process that within
yourself or with the help ofsomebody else, just because you
go to a wedding or a bar mitzvah.
You know when it was verydifficult for me, the most
difficult times, not even somuch on a day to day or a
wedding or a bar mitzvah, butwhen he died at nine and a half.
So when everyone was when hisage, boys were turning bar
(23:12):
mitzvah and I was being, we werebeing invited because he had
some really good friends.
He had some wonderful littlefriends and all of the friends,
the parents, they all knew, theyall loved him.
Anybody that knew him loved himRight.
So because he was a character.
So whenever we were invited to abar mitzvah, I didn't go.
I don't think I went to one,maybe his best friend, I went
(23:36):
just to say mazal tov.
But I couldn't go to any barmitzvahs and that was a very
difficult time.
Like, look, all the boys arebecoming bar mitzvah and he's
not.
And look, all the other boysare graduating high school and
he's not.
And look, all the other boysare getting married and having
children and he's not.
And look, all the other boysare becoming grandfathers and
(23:56):
he's not.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
So when they reached the stage of becoming
grandfathers, did it hurt youthe same much as when they
became bar?
Speaker 3 (24:04):
mitzvahed.
It has a very bittersweet.
Yeah, it brings back a lot ofmemories because even years
later, when you see what hecould have been, when I see
somebody who's now a grandfatheror who's a father of teenage
kids or whatever, and this iswhat he could have been, so yeah
, that hurts my heart.
(24:25):
But you know, yeah, it ispainful.
I went over, I was well.
First, this is the second timeI met him.
The second time this young mancame over to me at a Vart,
actually several years ago, andnow I met him again,
unfortunately at a Shiva homewhen one of his relatives was
sitting Shiva.
So the first time he came overto me at the Simcha and he
introduced himself he goes.
I want to introduce myself.
(24:46):
My name is so-and-so and I'myour son's friend.
And I said you know, yaakov,meaning my current lovely,
wonderful, amazing son, goes.
No, I'm Aryeh's friend.
So I said, oh, amazing son, hegoes.
No, I'm Arye's friend.
So I said, oh my God.
And I didn't.
I remembered him once I hereminded me who he was and I
(25:07):
remembered, oh, yes, he was oneof the little boys who used to
come around to the house, playdates and stuff, but he wasn't
such a close friend but he was a, you know, a good friend.
He goes, I remember Arye and hestarted talking about Arye.
Now we're talking about a manwho at that time most probably
was in his he's in his 40s,close to 50, right, he's 50.
Now he's 50.
So let's say two years ago orthree years ago he was in his
(25:29):
mid to late 40s and he wastalking to me like, oh, I'm
Aryeh's friend, like, almostlike Aryeh's friend.
Wow, that's amazing.
And he started reminiscingabout Aryeh and I said, oh, you
mean, you're Aryeh's friend andlike it, really, it kind of it
did it shook me up for a minute.
I goes, oh my God.
And then we started talkingabout Aryeh and it was amazing
and he was just saying all hismemories.
I have another one of Aryeh'sfriends who he was very, very
(25:52):
close to.
I found this out not from himbut from his mother-in-law, who
was a friend of mine, told methat the night, the day before
his wedding, he's married now hejust married off his first
child.
This friend just married offhis first child and the day
before his wedding where did hego?
To Davin.
He went to Aryeh's Kever, toDavin.
Wow, he said Aryeh meant somuch to him that the most
(26:15):
meaningful place that he wantedto go pray before he got married
was at his Kever.
He went.
What this guy does, he now helives in another part of not in
brooklyn, but when he lived inbrooklyn and now, wherever he
lives, he establishes, like youknow, the near tummids in a shul
, yeah, the fire.
So it's always it's a, there'sa plaque.
He establishes the near tummidand it's really, yeah, so like
(26:38):
these are little private thingsthat people do.
Besides what we did like, likethe library and whatever,
whatever else we do, we have awhole bunch of other things that
we do, but the main things arethe library and the gun, but
other friends do things in hismemory.
I don't even I'm not even awareof it, because in his nine and
a half years he did, he made animpact.
Every child, I'm sure, is thatway.
I'm not just saying it about,I'm just not talking just about
(26:58):
my child.
Everybody is, you know, I'msure, especially if they lived
beyond a baby or whatever makesan impact on family and friends.
You know, when people come overto you, I was like so touched
when that young man came over tome.
Wow, you still remember Aryeh,like 40 years later, and he
started telling me like allthese fun memories and on his
(27:21):
yard site.
I write something on his yardsite and I post it on various
family and friend chats.
I always write this whole thingabout Aryeh and I post it on
chats.
And I do it also because I wantand we make a kid, there's a
ticket, whatever and I wantpeople to come and say the
Neshama should have an Aliyah.
That's why I do it.
So I put the neshama and wepost days of you know they learn
I have yeshivas in Israel thatare learning lezeh ha-nishmasa
(27:45):
and because I want people to sayhis neshama should have an
aliyah.
And then you start when I putthis on the chat and then they
start posting and everyonestarts posting memories.
Hey, I remember when Aryeh didX, y and Z and when he made
trouble doing this he was likesuch a little trouble, he was a
mischievous kid and this andthat.
So I love those stories.
(28:08):
They're great, right, right.
So and you know what?
Another thing that is veryimportant for people to hear I
mourn the way I mourn.
People mourn in different ways.
My husband mourned Aryeh verydifferently.
Aryeh made a tape, a vidoy tapebefore he was nifter and a very
intricate, deep vidoy tapebecause he said he wanted to
(28:30):
talk to Hashem.
I listened to it every year onhis yard site.
Every year.
My husband listened to it two,three times over the first few
years and then he found itexceptionally painful and he
said to me I can't the first fewyears.
And then he found itexceptionally painful and he
said to me I can't listen to itanymore.
I listened to it.
I know it like by heart.
Practically I know by heartbecause I've listened to it for
40 years and you know I used todiscuss this with my therapist.
(28:56):
Right, I went through mytherapy as a therapist.
I've been through my owntherapy and what I learned very,
very significantly and veryimportant and what I learned
(29:16):
very significantly and veryimportant people mourn in
different ways.
No one should tell you have tomourn that way.
You mourn the way you want andif you feel that you're stuck
and you need help, that'ssomething else and you should
get the help you need.
If you're really having anintense grief reaction, you
really need to have someclinical intervention and you
should go, but nobody could tellyou.
You know I was getting lecturesfrom people about two years
(29:38):
after he died.
You know, I don't know if youhave any of his clothes, but if
you have his clothes, it's suchmemories you really should throw
them out, give them away.
And I said why?
Why do I have to give them away?
I mean, I didn't have all ofhis clothes.
I had a few things a cutelittle pair of shoes that he
never ended up wearing.
A cute little blazer.
He had this cute little redblazer.
(29:59):
I refused to give them away.
I said no, no, no.
You should.
You have to get rid of it.
You have to cleanse and get ridof it.
So I remember coming into myanalyst and I remember asking
her you know, everyone's tellingme that I have to get rid of
his clothes.
Do I have to get rid of hisclothes?
And she said to me do you wantto get rid of his clothes?
I said no, I have no desirewhatsoever.
She goes and to this day theyare in a closet.
(30:21):
I know exactly where this pairof shoes or this blazer is.
They're at one of my closets inmy house and that's it.
Who cares?
Does it bother anybody?
You mourn the way you mourn.
Nobody tells you how to mourn.
You want to listen to the X, yand Z.
You want to look at A, b and C?
Great, you don't want to do itat this point in time.
Maybe another time you'll beable to also great.
(30:43):
Nobody should tell you how tomourn.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
I must stress that nobody means your closest people
, your spouse, your siblings,your parents, and then, of
course, society, because societyalways has a lot of things.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
Society always has.
This is what you should do andwhat you shouldn't do, please.
I've been down this road bothin my own personal experience
and in my clinical work.
If you're really having anissue and you're stuck because
it's creating tremendousdepression and this and that of
course you should haveintervention.
But if it helps you in some wayand it's not bothering anybody
(31:19):
else in any way, like it's not,like my husband said to me.
My husband at one, my husband,actually my husband was not the
one that said to me oh, get ridof the clothes.
No, he was fine with it.
We were very much on the samepage, by the way, in many things
, in many things.
So that's why it's just that Iwas much.
I talk a lot more because that'smy business and I'm very
comfortable speaking.
And Nissen does not speak asmuch, although you know he's at
(31:42):
this point, you know he's veryexpressive, but he's not as
expressive as I am.
But you know, although youshould know, the first time we
went to a May Rim weekend, hesaid to me, because I was
running the groups and I wasgoing to be speaking, and he
said you know, hindzi, pleasedon't expect me to talk, I'm not
going to be able to talk.
I said, no problem, you justcome to bring a safer he brings
(32:03):
for him so he could learn.
And then Friday night, therewas the one where Glenn spoke
and he had a panel and I saidlisten, you want to come?
I don't know.
I don't know, Maybe I'll justgo and sit in the dining room
and learn.
I said you do whatever you want.
Listen, you know, do whateveryou want.
Meanwhile, you know, it wasseparate seating and I'm sitting
with the women.
I look over and there he is inthe back row sitting there.
I said, okay, he feltcomfortable coming.
(32:26):
So he came All of a sudden.
When there was questions, heraises his hand.
He had a comment, he had aquestion, he was like a whole
bit and I was like sitting therelistening to him.
I'm saying, whoa, look at him,I'm the one that usually does
all the talking and thecommenting.
You know he had a, he had athought of feeling whatever.
(32:48):
He certainly has enoughexperience in this and he spoke
up and I thought it was amazing.
You do it when you want to doit, your time, how you do it,
how you want to do it, yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
Amazing.
Okay, I know that we have tofinish.
Is there any other quick likemessages that we should leave
everyone with?
Speaker 3 (33:00):
or If you get feedback on this particular
podcast, where you havequestions and the audience have
particular questions.
If you choose to, you caninvite me back and maybe we
could do some Q&A.
In other words, you would readthe questions to me and I would
try to respond to them as bestas possible.
But I guess my final words areas much as you are mourning the
(33:23):
life of the person you lost,please try to celebrate as much
as possible the life of theperson you lost and keep him in
your heart and celebrate him.
Do anything you can.
It doesn't have to be big scale.
The slightest thing I write mytzedakah checks, matzah shabbos
every single check.
I do it for different peoplealso.
You know parents.
Slightest thing I write myTadaka checks, matashabbas every
single check.
I do it for different peoplealso.
(33:43):
You know parents and whatever,but most of my checks are on the
bottom in the memo.
You give Tadaka his name.
You sponsor a day of learning.
You could do big things, littlethings, do things in his memory
, in the person's memory, andthey don't have to be big,
expensive things.
Celebrate the life and dowhat's good for you and mourn
the way you feel you want tomourn and if there are any other
(34:07):
comments or questions on that,I'd be happy to hear.
Thank you, so so much forcoming on.
Thank you, miriam, for invitingme, and this was really fun.
Well, I don't know how fun, butit was nice, it was really nice
.
It was really nice.
Fun, but it was nice, it wasreally nice.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
It was really nice.
You've just listened to anepisode of the Relief from Grief
podcast with Miriam Riviat,brought to you by Mayrim.
For more episodes, visit theMayrim website at wwwmayrimorg.
Help us reach more people whomight benefit from this podcast.
If you know someone who couldfind it helpful, please share it
(34:42):
with them.
If you have questions orcomments for the speaker, or if
you'd like to suggest a guestfor the podcast, we'd love to
hear from you.
Email us at relieffromgrief atmayrimorg.
We look forward to having youjoin us in the next episode.
Welcome to the Relief from Grief podcast, hosted by
Mrs Miriam Rebiet and brought toyou by Mayrim.
Mayrim is an organizationdedicated to supporting families
who have experienced the lossof a child.
It was founded by IloyNishmat's, nechama Liba and
Miriam Holman.
Despite her illness, miriamdevoted herself to addressing
(00:22):
the needs of parents andsiblings grappling with the
immense pain of losing a child.
She felt this loss deeply,having experienced it firsthand
when her older sister, nechamaLiba, passed away.
Mehrim continues to uplift andexpand on the work Miriam began,
a mission carried forward byher parents with great
dedication.
(00:43):
If you have any questions orcomments for the speaker, or if
you'd like to suggest a guestfor the podcast, please email us
at relieffromgrief at mayrimorg.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Hi everybody.
Thank you so much for joiningme here today on the Relief from
Grief podcast by Mayrim.
Today I'm very, very excited tohave Dr Hindi M Klein, who is a
psychologist and apsychoanalyst in private
practice, but she's also theformer director of TICFA at OHEL
for many, many years, so I'm soexcited to have you on.
Thank you so, so much forcoming on.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
Thank you for having me.
I'm honored to be on thispodcast and I think that you
know I know this is a part ofMayrim's program and I think the
Mayrim program is wonderful andvery helpful and meaningful to
so many families.
I'm a very big fan of Sagit andGlenn's.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
And I'm just honored to be asked to be here.
Hey, well, I have to agree withyou.
They are really they areincredible people.
What they do is amazing.
Okay, so it's an honor for us tohave you because of what you do
in your practice, but besides,for that, you are a bereaved
mother, and one of the reasonsthat I so badly wanted you to
come on is because what you haveto tell people I don't know I
(01:57):
almost want to say the wordoffer, but it sounds like I
don't know is that you lost yourson so many years ago and I
think people like would love tohear about that.
The pain, like it becomes partof you.
You don't forget your child.
You move, you can continuegoing on in life, you can have
very happy moments and you knowgood times, but that loss is
always part of you and youalways stay connected to your
(02:18):
child, and I think parents needto hear you're not forgetting
your child, no matter what.
So why don't we start off alittle bit about your son with?
You know his name, how old hewas, what happened, right?
Speaker 3 (02:27):
So our child's name was Aryezav Klein.
He was a magnificent andwonderful little boy who died of
cystic fibrosis when he wasnine and a half years old.
Today he would be 50 years old.
He died 40, ervsukis, which ishis yard site, was his 40th yard
site.
So it's been many, many yearsand there's usually never a day
(02:52):
that I don't think about him.
His pictures, and differentpictures, are all over the house
.
But I think that what's mostsignificant about this is that
and this is what came out, Ithink, the very first time I
went to a May Rim weekend, aretreat, several years ago, and
I ran a group for women, ofbereaved women.
Some of them were newcomers,some of them were old, you know,
had been there already beforeand I spoke a little bit about.
(03:15):
I didn't right away think Iwanted to speak about them,
because I didn't want it to beabout me, I wanted it to be
about the group.
But then I realized and I, youknow, I was coming in as a
psychologist, as the therapist.
But then I realized it would behave much more meaning if I
would talk about it not onlyfrom a clinical, psychological
point of view but also from apersonal point of view.
So I shared at that time.
I think I had been gone 37years and I shared that.
(03:38):
You know we lost a child 37years ago and I talked about.
You know how we function andwhat we do and how he was so
inspiring to us and how we stillare able to have joy and
happiness and shep a lot ofnachas from our other children
and grandchildren and you knowwe could still maintain such a
high level of simchas achayim.
And afterwards people came overto me.
(03:58):
Quite a few women came over tome and said they can't believe
that our child died so manyyears ago and that I'm still
functioning and that I functionso well and that I could still
have happiness and joy.
And like I always say, I thinkabout Aria every day but I'm
still great at parties, like Ican walk into a party and have
(04:20):
the best time and laugh and thisand sing and dance at weddings
and functions and events.
That doesn't mean there's not apart of your soul that is
always there, that is alwaysthinking of him and always
there's a little how would I sayit?
I always envision it as inside,my very warm heart is a little
cold place that's kind of lockedup, but inside there is always
(04:44):
like, not that he's cold, he'svery warm in my heart, but it's
like a little separate placethat's kind of locked up, but
inside there is always like, notthat he's cold, he's very warm
in my heart, but it's like alittle separate place that's
always there and kind of securethere.
It's like he never, ever leaves.
Years later you could have awonderful life and you could
have an accomplished life.
I mean, my whole career wasinspired by him.
My doctoral dissertation is inmemory of him.
(05:06):
So I guess the lesson is is that, with all the grief that you go
through and of course there'sdifferent coping mechanisms that
different people use, but wecould talk about that and how I
functioned and what you know,the story and so on but despite
all of that, you could stillmaintain a happy life, a good
(05:27):
life, a meaningful life, ameaningful life for your other
children, which is so importantBecause if you slump too much
into grief and depression, youwill not be available to your
other children and you need tobe available for your other
children and, ultimately, yourgrandchildren and, of course, to
your husband and your husbandto you, to maintain a healthy
marriage.
So there's a part of you thathas to always remember and
(05:49):
grieve, to whatever extent, andthen there's a part of you that
has to live, and live asjoyously as possible.
So I don't know if you want meto talk a little bit more about
Aryeh specifically.
He was a very courageous andbrilliant and wonderful little
boy who I just want to interruptyou because this is going audio
(06:09):
.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
I want to tell all the listeners that, as you
mentioned his name, even thoughit's so many years, your whole
smile, like your whole face,lights up with a smile, like
he's smiling to you, and Ithought that was really nice
when I saw that.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
It's true he was such a cute kid, he was such a funny
and brilliant little boy.
He was very bright.
So he used to do things thatwere like very funny and very
bright.
And I can give you just a cutelittle example when he was two
and a half years old myhusband's a scientist, so when
he was two and a half years oldhe was sitting in the kitchen.
He was diagnosed at eightmonths.
(06:42):
So he was always very slightand physically, cognitively, was
fine, but he was sitting atthis little.
You know there's little kiddietables with the little chairs.
It's a little red.
You know tables that you havefor the children in the kitchen.
He's sitting at the kitchen andthere's a glass of orange juice
.
I'd give him a little cup oforanges.
So he took the orange juice andhe, very methodical he knew
exactly what he was doing and hespilled it on the floor.
(07:04):
He's like watching it spill onthe floor.
I said I, sweetie, what are youdoing?
He goes, mommy, I did not do it, gravity did it.
This is what he was like at twoand a half.
We used to make him memorizesquare roots.
So he would go places and wewould say to him uh, what's the
square root of 81?
Nine, what's the square root ofnine Three?
(07:26):
And it was like rote, hememorized it, he had a great
memory and he was a very brightlittle boy and very special and
unfortunately he sufferedterribly.
We were in and out of thehospitals for nine and a half
years and he suffered terriblyand finally he couldn't take it
anymore.
So you know it was.
I can't say it wasn't torture.
(07:47):
It was torture being in and outof the hospitals.
It is torture watching a childwho you love very much die.
You're watching him die.
It's not, like you know inother situations.
It's worse in other ways.
Like God forbid, there's a caraccident or something sudden, so
you're not expecting that childto die.
So it's a different type ofgrief, because it's so sudden
and it's so shocking and, oh myGod, one minute the child is
(08:09):
there and healthy and beautiful,and the next minute the child
is gone.
So that's a different type ofgrief.
And there's another.
I mean it's all under grief.
But then there's the grief thatwhen you know you're, it was
diagnosed at eight months old.
He died at nine and a half andconstantly in the hospital,
constantly sick.
And you know and you'rewatching this child deteriorate,
(08:30):
and that's a different type oftorture.
So, quite frankly, it's alltorturous.
It's all torturous.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
There's no way.
Let me ask you like this,though like by the time he was
nifter, he probably didn't looklike when someone loses someone
in a car accident very suddenly,they could still I mean, unless
their body was, you know whoknows what they could still look
like themselves beautiful,right, you probably saw those
like you probably saw him at theend when he didn't look so
beautiful.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
By the time, by the time he died, he was terribly
emaciated because he wasn't justabsorbing, you know, part of
cystic fibrosis they can'tabsorb food well because there's
pancreatic issues and there'slung issues.
It's basically a disease of thepancreas and the digestive and
the lungs.
So he happened to have a badcase, you know, and it's
nowadays.
There are different, even thenthere are different levels.
(09:17):
Some people have a very mildcase, so they don't have such
bad lung involvement.
They're not constantly, youknow, their lungs are not
constantly infected, they'reabsorbing food better.
So he had a pretty heavy dutycase on both ends.
So it was pretty difficult andso by the time he died he was
just very, very frail.
But cognitively, brain wise, hewas intact to the very, very
(09:41):
end, intact to the very, to thevery, very end, intact to the
very, very end, I mean.
I think that.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
How long did it take for you to think of him as his
regular, healthiest self,instead of having the picture of
his sick and dying self?
Because I think that peoplestruggle with that.
When someone is nifter and theydidn't look so well, people say
like gosh, these memories arestuck in my head.
I don't remember them laying inthe hospital.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
I have a lot of pictures of Aryeh when he was.
I have pictures of Aryeh whenhe was towards the end also, and
those are around also.
But I have other pictures ofhim with the other children and
when he was healthier and morerobust, and they're all over the
house.
You know, there's some peoplewho say, oh, the person died,
like we don't have pictures ofthem anymore, we don't get
pictures of round, it's toopainful.
(10:24):
So I say the opposite.
I say the opposite Embrace it,celebrate the child that he was
and yes, it's horrible that he'snot around anymore, that the
child is not around, butcelebrate the beauty and
everybody's different, likesomebody will say well, you
didn't even have thatopportunity.
We had a stillborn or we had achild who died in infancy, so we
(10:45):
didn't have that opportunity tocollect pictures of better
times, of healthier times.
So each person has to be.
I guess, when we're working withgrief with people, every
situation is different.
Every situation has to beworked with that person and how
they're handling it and all theother factors in terms of are
they getting a lot of supportfrom family, from friends, from
(11:08):
each other?
You know, spouse wise, so everysingle situation is different.
In my situation.
I had nine years of pictures ofhim, from the time he was a
baby till, you know, till hedied.
So some of the pictures aremore robust and they're all over
the house.
I will not put away pictures ofthem and I'm very, very, I'm
(11:28):
very, very mindful that whenpeople say to me, you know,
because this is a big questionthat comes up and I've worked
with this in the groups a bigquestion comes up.
When they say to me you know,how many children do you have?
So you know I have two children.
I have two beautiful livingchildren and grandchildren and
so on.
But I will never say twochildren.
I always say I have threechildren, always.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
And what happens when they go further?
Oh gross, when they go further.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
So then I will say I have two children and I say one
of our oldest child passed awaywhen he was a little boy.
Very simple, I don't make a bigfanfare out of it and sometimes
you're scared to say it becauseyou're scared of the reaction.
Oh my God, they fanfare out ofit and you know, sometimes
you're scared to say it becauseyou're scared of the reaction.
Oh my God, they're going tofeel so uncomfortable.
So they have to deal with itand I'm more than happy to talk
about it and I'm more than happyto explain it in a lovely way.
(12:12):
But I will not deny hisexistence because of somebody
else's discomfort.
So I will say it.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
When your girls were growing up and they like you
know high school or camp, whenthey met new friends, were they
also very comfortable alwayssaying that they well, I raised
them that way.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
I have a son.
I have after Yaka was born Iyou know the story with the
ribbon it's a Rebbe that mydaughter, malky, was born nine
months, literally to the dayTuesday, and Yaakov was also
(12:52):
born after that, a few yearslater.
I went to the Rebbe and Sarebafive times for various brachos
and we met and it was veryspecial and so I have one
daughter and one son, and Aryeh,and then Malka and then Yaakov.
And I think because we grew up,they grew up always knowing
about Aryeh.
(13:12):
Well, malki was five when hedied.
Yaakov was 15 months.
So Malky remembers him veryclearly.
Yaakov doesn't really, butthrough the pictures.
Aryeh loved Yaakov because hewas a baby, so we used to cuddle
him and say, oh, I have like mylittle baby brother.
So he loved him, not that hedidn't love Malky, but it was a
different kind of relationship.
So they grew up with knowingthat Aryeh is very much in
(13:34):
existence on some level andthere are his pictures and we
talk about him when the kidswere like older, not babies, but
when they were older, like youknow, pre-teenage already.
When we go to the cemetery, likeyou know, between Rosh Hashanah
and Yom Kippur.
His yard site is Erev Sukkot,so usually we weren't able to go
.
It's too hectic to go on hisyard site.
So we would go between RoshHashanah and Yom Kippur.
You know, when everybody goesto the cemetery, that's when we
(13:56):
would go as well and we wouldtake them along.
I would say, you know, I wouldsay, okay, kids, we're going to
do group and we would kind ofstand around the kever and like
talk, what would you like to sayto Aryeh, what would you like
to share with him?
Now some people will a lot ofpeople think that what I'm doing
is weird, like that.
I'm taking children to thecemetery and we're happy, we're
(14:16):
talking.
But I didn't feel that way andthe kids didn't feel that way.
So the kids were verycomfortable with the knowledge
that he was a very speciallittle boy who was sick and who
died.
But that doesn't mean he doesn'tremain in his in our existence.
As a matter of fact, mydaughter just married off her
first child.
My grandson got married and itwas really beautiful at the
(14:37):
Afrof.
I wasn't expecting it at all.
Anki spoke at one point, Ithink during Shalashodes, and my
son-in-law spoke and they allmentioned him at the Friday
night dinner, of the Afrofdinner, and they were speaking
about the people in the family,my parents, different
grandparents that are not hereanymore with us, and I did not
(14:57):
think that they would mentionDariyeh necessarily.
And they all mentioned Dariyeh,they all mentioned Dariyeh and
my Yaakov when he makes asimchat, they all mention him,
like he's really part of thefamily, and I think it's just
the attitude that you give thatyou're not locking up this
memory and saying, oh no, wecan't look at the pictures, we
(15:19):
can't talk about them, himanymore, or her anymore, because
you know she doesn't exist.
She very much does exist andwe've kept him alive in certain
ways.
I mentioned this to you, miriam.
You know, at Yeshiva ChaimBerlin, the Yeshiva Katana of
Chaim Berlin, there is abeautiful children's library.
So the children's library atChaim Berlin is the Ariye Zev
Klein Memorial Library.
And then in Israel andYerushalayim we have a gan in
(15:40):
the Muslim quarter.
We have a gan in the Muslimquarter and it's called Gan
Aryeh.
It's on the roof of a building.
This is from an organization,an amazing organization called
Atteret Kohanim.
They buy properties in theMuslim quarter and then they put
from families into the buildingand they came to us and they
said you know, we're going tohave five families living in
this tall building.
(16:00):
There's nowhere for the kids toplay, they can't play on the
streets, they'll be murdered.
So they wanted to create aplayground on the roof of this
building and I went up to lookat the place.
And I came up to the roof ofthe building and I looked across
and I saw the Har Habayis and Isaid, yeah, this is for him,
this is where he's going to be.
So we have a beautiful,beautiful park, you know, a
(16:21):
playground that's called GanAryeh.
So you look for ways toperpetuate his memory.
Instead of burying his memory,you look for ways to celebrate
his life Instead of only youhave to grieve his loss also,
but instead of only grieving theloss, you look for ways of
(16:43):
celebration.
Look at what Glenn and Sagit dowith Meirim they celebrate
their children, they celebratethe memories of their children,
and this is the way youperpetuate the person's memory
and you bring manukha toyourself and to others.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
And what happens, though, if your spouse is not on
board?
Let's say, your husband says Ican't look at pictures.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
Then don't look.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
I'm keeping them out.
You just don't look.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
No, they're in certain parts of the house.
Well, I never had that issue.
I hear that could be an issue.
So because we were so alltogether on this, it was just so
together.
It was like a no brainer typeof thing.
We were so together on this.
There was never.
There was never even like a.
There was never either like Ihad to.
It wasn't as if I had todiscuss with my husband.
Okay, so we're going to put outthe pictures.
(17:31):
How do you feel about that?
It wasn't even a question.
Of course we're going to be sonow.
So that was my experience.
So you're asking a greatquestion what happens if the one
spouse says I can't, I justcan't, please don't.
So then you have to negotiatethat.
So then you might want to putout a picture or two, but maybe
(17:52):
not in a place that isconstantly like walk through.
Like you know, I happen to havea buffet in one part of my
house where I have all differentphotographs of the parents, you
know, the grandparents, theAlta Babas and Zaidas and all
that.
So I have a whole area.
I have pictures of Aryeh therealso and Aryeh with the children
, with Malik and Yaakov whenthey were younger.
So I have pictures there, but Ihave other pictures of him in
(18:12):
more prominent areas, like youknow, in the kitchen, whatever.
So let's say the person says no, I can't.
So then maybe you wouldn't putit in an area that they would
constantly look at it, you know,on a desk by the computer or in
the kitchen.
You would put it maybe in alittle bit of a corner, or maybe
you wouldn't do it at all.
I don't think it's necessarilysuch a wise idea to banish all
(18:33):
memories or all pictures.
Personally don't think it's agood idea.
As I said, the memory and thelife should be celebrated to
whatever extent.
But some people who can'thandle it, then I think those
are the people who maybe wouldbenefit from help, from some
clinical intervention and reallylooking at their grief, because
obviously they're going througha grief response that really
(18:54):
doesn't allow them to go there,which is understandable.
And you have to understandsomething I'm already 40 year
veteran, so to speak.
So it's not the same intensityas it was the first two years,
five years, 10 years.
The first few years was hell itwas.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
it was very, very.
I wanted to ask you about that,like you started off in the
beginning with, you know thatyou always feel the pain and you
have that cold spot in yourheart, but you're still a parody
girl.
But were you a parody girlright after, or did it take five
years or 10 years until youcould really go talk to someone
and enjoy?
Speaker 3 (19:28):
I don't think it took five years.
It took.
It took a couple of years.
I remember a memory distinctlyI was doing an internship, I was
doing my doctoral internship,and I was driving to work every
day to Brookdale Hospital inBrooklyn.
It was like a 20-minute drive.
It was after Shloshim, so Iwould drive to work and I would
be very sad.
And then I love music.
(19:49):
I'm a big music person and Ilove music.
And I used to say, no, I'm not.
You know, during Shloshim youcan't listen to music, right,
but after Shloshim you'reallowed to listen to music.
When it's a loss of a child,you're allowed to do everything.
After Shloshim you're allowedto do.
So I said, no, I'm notlistening to music because I
don't care if it's Shloshim ornot, shloshim I.
So one day I was like, really,I really want to and I said you
(20:13):
know what God runs the world?
If God says you could listen tomusic after 30 days, then I
could listen to music after 30days.
And guess what, one day, on theway home from the hospital, I
put on the radio or I put on atape of a particular singer that
I love, and what I found was Istarted sobbing and crying,
because listening to the musicwas so therapeutic for me.
(20:36):
It was so soothing andtherapeutic for me that I would,
from then on, I would driveback and forth to the hospital
and listen to music because itwas therapeutic for me.
Did I go to weddings or parties?
Most probably I did, maybe notright away.
Weddings or parties?
Most probably I did, maybe notright away.
I know my mother-in-law.
My husband lost a sister and mymother-in-law did not go out for
(21:00):
10 years.
She didn't go anywhere.
She refused to pretty muchleave the house.
She never went to weddings orevents or anything like that.
I think it was about 10 yearsthat she didn't go anywhere and
she refused.
And we would say you know, know, I knew you could go already,
you're allowed.
No, no, no.
She really grieved very terriblyfor pami, who was a wonderful,
wonderful young lady who diedvery suddenly, uh, of a, of an
(21:21):
aneurysm, um.
So you know she couldn't do it.
I was able to do it because Iwas able to mourn him in
different ways, like I was ableto listen to music, and that was
part of my mourning, that I waslistening to music and having
memories of him and crying andsobbing sometimes, but it was
very therapeutic for me.
(21:42):
So you have to find what worksfor you and if you are, if you
can in other words, not to feelguilty, if you can do it, you
can do it.
And also you have to, I think,also be at a certain where you
have to think of your other kids.
You have to think of your otherchildren.
If you're going to be highlydepressed and non-functional or
(22:05):
anxious or whatever yoursymptomology is and it affects
your relationship and yourattachment with your other
children, with your spouse, thenthat's something that you
really need to get help with sothat you can be engaged and
loving and happy with your otherchildren.
It doesn't mean that you loveAryeh or your child any less and
(22:26):
it doesn't mean that you missthem any less.
It just means that you'reopening your heart wider to
embrace all the other love thatyou want to give and that you
want to receive.
So I don't know if that answersyour question.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
I think that's like the fear that people have, that
like if I look so happy, if I goto the wedding and I dance and
I laugh and I talk, then itlooks like I don't remember, and
I don't want anyone to thinkthat I don't remember my child.
I think that's a fear thatpeople have a lot of times.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
It could be.
It could be, but I think thatyou need to process that within
yourself or with the help ofsomebody else, just because you
go to a wedding or a bar mitzvah.
You know when it was verydifficult for me, the most
difficult times, not even somuch on a day to day or a
wedding or a bar mitzvah, butwhen he died at nine and a half.
So when everyone was when hisage, boys were turning bar
(23:12):
mitzvah and I was being, we werebeing invited because he had
some really good friends.
He had some wonderful littlefriends and all of the friends,
the parents, they all knew, theyall loved him.
Anybody that knew him loved himRight.
So because he was a character.
So whenever we were invited to abar mitzvah, I didn't go.
I don't think I went to one,maybe his best friend, I went
(23:36):
just to say mazal tov.
But I couldn't go to any barmitzvahs and that was a very
difficult time.
Like, look, all the boys arebecoming bar mitzvah and he's
not.
And look, all the other boysare graduating high school and
he's not.
And look, all the other boysare getting married and having
children and he's not.
And look, all the other boysare becoming grandfathers and
(23:56):
he's not.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
So when they reached the stage of becoming
grandfathers, did it hurt youthe same much as when they
became bar?
Speaker 3 (24:04):
mitzvahed.
It has a very bittersweet.
Yeah, it brings back a lot ofmemories because even years
later, when you see what hecould have been, when I see
somebody who's now a grandfatheror who's a father of teenage
kids or whatever, and this iswhat he could have been, so yeah
, that hurts my heart.
(24:25):
But you know, yeah, it ispainful.
I went over, I was well.
First, this is the second timeI met him.
The second time this young mancame over to me at a Vart,
actually several years ago, andnow I met him again,
unfortunately at a Shiva homewhen one of his relatives was
sitting Shiva.
So the first time he came overto me at the Simcha and he
introduced himself he goes.
I want to introduce myself.
(24:46):
My name is so-and-so and I'myour son's friend.
And I said you know, yaakov,meaning my current lovely,
wonderful, amazing son, goes.
No, I'm Aryeh's friend.
So I said, oh, amazing son, hegoes.
No, I'm Arye's friend.
So I said, oh my God.
And I didn't.
I remembered him once I hereminded me who he was and I
(25:07):
remembered, oh, yes, he was oneof the little boys who used to
come around to the house, playdates and stuff, but he wasn't
such a close friend but he was a, you know, a good friend.
He goes, I remember Arye and hestarted talking about Arye.
Now we're talking about a manwho at that time most probably
was in his he's in his 40s,close to 50, right, he's 50.
Now he's 50.
So let's say two years ago orthree years ago he was in his
(25:29):
mid to late 40s and he wastalking to me like, oh, I'm
Aryeh's friend, like, almostlike Aryeh's friend.
Wow, that's amazing.
And he started reminiscingabout Aryeh and I said, oh, you
mean, you're Aryeh's friend andlike it, really, it kind of it
did it shook me up for a minute.
I goes, oh my God.
And then we started talkingabout Aryeh and it was amazing
and he was just saying all hismemories.
I have another one of Aryeh'sfriends who he was very, very
(25:52):
close to.
I found this out not from himbut from his mother-in-law, who
was a friend of mine, told methat the night, the day before
his wedding, he's married now hejust married off his first
child.
This friend just married offhis first child and the day
before his wedding where did hego?
To Davin.
He went to Aryeh's Kever, toDavin.
Wow, he said Aryeh meant somuch to him that the most
(26:15):
meaningful place that he wantedto go pray before he got married
was at his Kever.
He went.
What this guy does, he now helives in another part of not in
brooklyn, but when he lived inbrooklyn and now, wherever he
lives, he establishes, like youknow, the near tummids in a shul
, yeah, the fire.
So it's always it's a, there'sa plaque.
He establishes the near tummidand it's really, yeah, so like
(26:38):
these are little private thingsthat people do.
Besides what we did like, likethe library and whatever,
whatever else we do, we have awhole bunch of other things that
we do, but the main things arethe library and the gun, but
other friends do things in hismemory.
I don't even I'm not even awareof it, because in his nine and
a half years he did, he made animpact.
Every child, I'm sure, is thatway.
I'm not just saying it about,I'm just not talking just about
(26:58):
my child.
Everybody is, you know, I'msure, especially if they lived
beyond a baby or whatever makesan impact on family and friends.
You know, when people come overto you, I was like so touched
when that young man came over tome.
Wow, you still remember Aryeh,like 40 years later, and he
started telling me like allthese fun memories and on his
(27:21):
yard site.
I write something on his yardsite and I post it on various
family and friend chats.
I always write this whole thingabout Aryeh and I post it on
chats.
And I do it also because I wantand we make a kid, there's a
ticket, whatever and I wantpeople to come and say the
Neshama should have an Aliyah.
That's why I do it.
So I put the neshama and wepost days of you know they learn
I have yeshivas in Israel thatare learning lezeh ha-nishmasa
(27:45):
and because I want people to sayhis neshama should have an
aliyah.
And then you start when I putthis on the chat and then they
start posting and everyonestarts posting memories.
Hey, I remember when Aryeh didX, y and Z and when he made
trouble doing this he was likesuch a little trouble, he was a
mischievous kid and this andthat.
So I love those stories.
(28:08):
They're great, right, right.
So and you know what?
Another thing that is veryimportant for people to hear I
mourn the way I mourn.
People mourn in different ways.
My husband mourned Aryeh verydifferently.
Aryeh made a tape, a vidoy tapebefore he was nifter and a very
intricate, deep vidoy tapebecause he said he wanted to
(28:30):
talk to Hashem.
I listened to it every year onhis yard site.
Every year.
My husband listened to it two,three times over the first few
years and then he found itexceptionally painful and he
said to me I can't the first fewyears.
And then he found itexceptionally painful and he
said to me I can't listen to itanymore.
I listened to it.
I know it like by heart.
Practically I know by heartbecause I've listened to it for
40 years and you know I used todiscuss this with my therapist.
(28:56):
Right, I went through mytherapy as a therapist.
I've been through my owntherapy and what I learned very,
very significantly and veryimportant and what I learned
(29:16):
very significantly and veryimportant people mourn in
different ways.
No one should tell you have tomourn that way.
You mourn the way you want andif you feel that you're stuck
and you need help, that'ssomething else and you should
get the help you need.
If you're really having anintense grief reaction, you
really need to have someclinical intervention and you
should go, but nobody could tellyou.
You know I was getting lecturesfrom people about two years
(29:38):
after he died.
You know, I don't know if youhave any of his clothes, but if
you have his clothes, it's suchmemories you really should throw
them out, give them away.
And I said why?
Why do I have to give them away?
I mean, I didn't have all ofhis clothes.
I had a few things a cutelittle pair of shoes that he
never ended up wearing.
A cute little blazer.
He had this cute little redblazer.
(29:59):
I refused to give them away.
I said no, no, no.
You should.
You have to get rid of it.
You have to cleanse and get ridof it.
So I remember coming into myanalyst and I remember asking
her you know, everyone's tellingme that I have to get rid of
his clothes.
Do I have to get rid of hisclothes?
And she said to me do you wantto get rid of his clothes?
I said no, I have no desirewhatsoever.
She goes and to this day theyare in a closet.
(30:21):
I know exactly where this pairof shoes or this blazer is.
They're at one of my closets inmy house and that's it.
Who cares?
Does it bother anybody?
You mourn the way you mourn.
Nobody tells you how to mourn.
You want to listen to the X, yand Z.
You want to look at A, b and C?
Great, you don't want to do itat this point in time.
Maybe another time you'll beable to also great.
(30:43):
Nobody should tell you how tomourn.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
I must stress that nobody means your closest people
, your spouse, your siblings,your parents, and then, of
course, society, because societyalways has a lot of things.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
Society always has.
This is what you should do andwhat you shouldn't do, please.
I've been down this road bothin my own personal experience
and in my clinical work.
If you're really having anissue and you're stuck because
it's creating tremendousdepression and this and that of
course you should haveintervention.
But if it helps you in some wayand it's not bothering anybody
(31:19):
else in any way, like it's not,like my husband said to me.
My husband at one, my husband,actually my husband was not the
one that said to me oh, get ridof the clothes.
No, he was fine with it.
We were very much on the samepage, by the way, in many things
, in many things.
So that's why it's just that Iwas much.
I talk a lot more because that'smy business and I'm very
comfortable speaking.
And Nissen does not speak asmuch, although you know he's at
(31:42):
this point, you know he's veryexpressive, but he's not as
expressive as I am.
But you know, although youshould know, the first time we
went to a May Rim weekend, hesaid to me, because I was
running the groups and I wasgoing to be speaking, and he
said you know, hindzi, pleasedon't expect me to talk, I'm not
going to be able to talk.
I said, no problem, you justcome to bring a safer he brings
(32:03):
for him so he could learn.
And then Friday night, therewas the one where Glenn spoke
and he had a panel and I saidlisten, you want to come?
I don't know.
I don't know, Maybe I'll justgo and sit in the dining room
and learn.
I said you do whatever you want.
Listen, you know, do whateveryou want.
Meanwhile, you know, it wasseparate seating and I'm sitting
with the women.
I look over and there he is inthe back row sitting there.
I said, okay, he feltcomfortable coming.
(32:26):
So he came All of a sudden.
When there was questions, heraises his hand.
He had a comment, he had aquestion, he was like a whole
bit and I was like sitting therelistening to him.
I'm saying, whoa, look at him,I'm the one that usually does
all the talking and thecommenting.
You know he had a, he had athought of feeling whatever.
(32:48):
He certainly has enoughexperience in this and he spoke
up and I thought it was amazing.
You do it when you want to doit, your time, how you do it,
how you want to do it, yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
Amazing.
Okay, I know that we have tofinish.
Is there any other quick likemessages that we should leave
everyone with?
Speaker 3 (33:00):
or If you get feedback on this particular
podcast, where you havequestions and the audience have
particular questions.
If you choose to, you caninvite me back and maybe we
could do some Q&A.
In other words, you would readthe questions to me and I would
try to respond to them as bestas possible.
But I guess my final words areas much as you are mourning the
(33:23):
life of the person you lost,please try to celebrate as much
as possible the life of theperson you lost and keep him in
your heart and celebrate him.
Do anything you can.
It doesn't have to be big scale.
The slightest thing I write mytzedakah checks, matzah shabbos
every single check.
I do it for different peoplealso.
You know parents.
Slightest thing I write myTadaka checks, matashabbas every
single check.
I do it for different peoplealso.
(33:43):
You know parents and whatever,but most of my checks are on the
bottom in the memo.
You give Tadaka his name.
You sponsor a day of learning.
You could do big things, littlethings, do things in his memory
, in the person's memory, andthey don't have to be big,
expensive things.
Celebrate the life and dowhat's good for you and mourn
the way you feel you want tomourn and if there are any other
(34:07):
comments or questions on that,I'd be happy to hear.
Thank you, so so much forcoming on.
Thank you, miriam, for invitingme, and this was really fun.
Well, I don't know how fun, butit was nice, it was really nice
.
It was really nice.
Fun, but it was nice, it wasreally nice.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
It was really nice.
You've just listened to anepisode of the Relief from Grief
podcast with Miriam Riviat,brought to you by Mayrim.
For more episodes, visit theMayrim website at wwwmayrimorg.
Help us reach more people whomight benefit from this podcast.
If you know someone who couldfind it helpful, please share it
(34:42):
with them.
If you have questions orcomments for the speaker, or if
you'd like to suggest a guestfor the podcast, we'd love to
hear from you.
Email us at relieffromgrief atmayrimorg.
We look forward to having youjoin us in the next episode.
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