February 25, 2025 • 57 mins
The world of mental health is ever-evolving, deepening our understanding of the brain, the causes of mental illnesses, and their treatments. In this podcast, we share the poignant story of Mrs. Aliza Bulow, whose beloved son Doni tragically died by suicide. Although his loss was devastating, it did not come as a shock. Doni had battled with suicidal thoughts for years, and his mother is grateful for their beautiful, loving relationship and the support she could provide during his struggles. She always hoped for a different outcome but acknowledges that 'He was born when he was supposed to be, and he died when he was supposed to.' If Doni were born today, perhaps better treatments might have been available. However, this was the journey Hashem chose for him. When the rabbi asked, 'What should we tell the community about Doni's cause of death?' both Mrs. Bulow and her husband insisted on honesty, aiming to dismantle the stigma surrounding suicide. It is a mental health issue, and concealing it only complicates the grief. There is no shame in it, and through this podcast, Mrs. Bulow continues her mission to bring this message to light.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the Relief from Grief podcast, hosted by
Mrs Miriam Rebiet and brought toyou by Mayrim.
Mayrim is an organizationdedicated to supporting families
who have experienced the lossof a child.
It was founded by EloiNishmat's, nechama Liba and
Miriam Holman.
Despite her illness, miriamdevoted herself to addressing
(00:22):
the needs of parents andsiblings grappling with the
immense pain of losing a child.
She felt this loss deeply,having experienced it firsthand
when her older sister, nechamaLiba, passed away.
Mehrim continues to uplift andexpand on the work Miriam began,
a mission carried forward byher parents with great
dedication.
(00:43):
If you have any questions orcomments for the speaker, or if
you'd like to suggest a guestfor the podcast, please email us
at relieffromgrief at mayrimorg.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Hi everybody.
Thank you so much for joiningme here on the Relief from Grief
podcast Today.
I am very happy to welcome MrsElisa Bulow to the podcast.
She's the founding director ofCORE, which is an organization
that connects and supports womenthat serve the CLAL, such as
CLAL teachers, rebetzins andlots of other things right.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Yeah, we have our Kedisha members, heads of
not-for-profits that serve theJewish people.
Classroom teachers, adulteducators.
We have all kinds of trainingand support programs for women
who serve the clout in manydifferent ways.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
It's amazing.
I know that you're like growingbigger and bigger and bigger.
It's amazing to see what you'redoing.
Okay, so should we start off alittle bit with your story.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Sure, which story would you like to hear?
Well, I thought about your sona little bit, but if you have
other exciting stories, Well, Iwould say, let's see, I
definitely lost a son, there'sno question about that, but I
also lost two grandchildren, sothere's all kinds of grief that
could be there.
So it's interesting it's calledRelief from Grief your podcast
(02:02):
and yeah, maybe it's how youdeal with it, or the relief from
the heaviness of it, and it'spart of all of our lives.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
So I'll share with you.
That's always interesting to me.
Like I appreciate is the wordappreciate when I speak to
people that lost children andgrandchildren, like Barbara
Ben-Susan came on and Mrs AlyssaFelder.
She didn't go live yet.
Maybe by the time this goeslive she'll be live, but she
also lost a child in agrandchild, so maybe we'll have
(02:32):
time to get to that.
But I think the point over hereis that we really want to talk
about suicide deaths and howthat impacts the community and
how we could try to take awaythe shame a little bit, Okay.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
So I could say I'm experienced in grief.
And then there's the my sondied by suicide.
So what does that mean?
What does that mean for ourfamily?
What does that mean in thecommunity?
You know, it's very interestingthat two years before my son
died and he was 19 years old andhe had mental illness from a
very young age he wanted to die.
And it was very weird talkingto a five-year-old who would say
(03:03):
to me at the time that he wasfive, we lived in Long Beach,
long Island, near the ocean, andhe would say I just want to
walk into the ocean and keep ongoing.
It was very clear from a veryyoung age like I don't want to
be here, and he couldn't evenarticulate it.
He was too young to articulatehis feelings.
But as he got older he was veryclear Like I never asked to
(03:24):
come and I don't want to stay.
Why should I be here?
You made a choice with Abba tohave another child, but I didn't
make a choice to be your child.
I don't want to be here.
And so I definitely raised achild that I was pretty sure
would die by suicide.
For me it wasn't a shock.
It was something that I thathung over the course of raising
(03:47):
him Um.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
I interrupt you a second.
We have to talk about thephrase died by suicide, right?
Because I know, when I waswriting the section of the book
of you know the you know thebook that I'm working on, um the
suicide section, and that'swhen I got my lesson that it's
died by suicide and not.
What did I used?
Speaker 3 (04:03):
to say Committed suicide.
Not committed suicide.
People have worked with theword committed.
They don't like the wordcommitted suicide because it
sounds like committing a sin orcommitting a crime.
So they don't want to saycommitted suicide for the person
that they love who died bysuicide.
And right after Donnie died,the language that I was seeing
was people would say completedsuicide because they wanted to
stick with the C.
But I didn't like that either,because there's suicide attempts
(04:26):
and but this person completedsuicide, like I much prefer the
died by suicide.
I mean that does mean suicideliterally does mean killing
oneself.
The side is killing likehomicide or other sides,
insecticide or herbicide.
Side means kill whatever you'rekilling insecticide for insects
and herbicide for plants,that's for dandelions.
(04:46):
So suicide is yourself.
Yeah, died by suicide.
So why and I think that's partof the stigma that's around it
is why does somebody die bysuicide?
Why would somebody take theirown life?
What's up with that?
Is that mental illness?
Is that anger?
Is that selfishness there's somuch about?
Is there's so much about thedying?
Is that cowardice?
(05:07):
You know, why do people die bysuicide?
And we have so much conversationand in our, in our texts, in
our sacred texts, you know, inthe, in the Gemara.
It talks about, um, a boatloadof children who are being, who
were captured from Yerushalayim,captured from Eretz Yis, israel
, and then taken.
They were in the boat on theirway to Rome and they all looked
(05:29):
at each other, all these youngteenagers, and they noticed oh
my gosh, we're all good looking,guess where we're going.
We're going into slavery to beused for our looks and used.
And they decided together,collectively, to jump over the
side of the boat and not allowthat slavery, which is dying by
suicide, right, which maybe youwould say.
(05:50):
I mean and this is wherethere's discussion in the Gemara
was that mutter or not?
They knew that they didn't wantto be over on Giloy Araya, so
they didn't want to have to besold as slaves for that.
And that's one of the things,that that's one of the three
things that you are.
You should die rather than dothat Avera.
But it was before they did theAvera, before they were
confronted with the Avera.
(06:11):
Was it mutter to have theunderstanding that they're
headed towards that and killthemselves before they got there
?
Or should they have done it inthe moment when they were first
sold and then requested to dowhatever terrible thing they
would have to do.
Like you know, anyway, there'sall kinds of what is it?
And then we have assistedsuicide today, where people like
(06:32):
they know they're going to dieand would they rather die with
dignity or by choice before theydie of the suffering or
whatever.
There's all kinds ofconversations about it.
Or you're in the Warsaw ghettoand you're afraid of what's
coming.
Did people die by suicide?
Look, there's a lot of thingsare coming out.
And was there suicide in theHolocaust?
There was certainly.
It seems like there was somesignificant suicide after the
(06:55):
Holocaust, where people made itthrough all those years and then
made it through with hope andthen at the end, when they went
home to see their families or toreunite and they saw
everybody's dead.
That's when some people killedthemselves because they're like
now there's no hope.
Like at least in the camps, wehad hope that our lives would
get back to normal, but now thatwe see that our house has been
(07:15):
burned down or taken over by theneighbors and our family is
dead, like now, there's no pointin hoping, and so there's no
point in living.
Now, there's no point in hopingand so there's no point in
living.
So what is suicide as a whole?
Big question In my life with mychild.
It was very clear that therewas a mental illness that was
(07:36):
deep and abiding and long-term,pervasive, chronic, of not
wanting to live and not beingable to understand it.
You know my name's Elisa, whichmeans joy, and it actually
refers.
We have a lot of names for joyin Judaism, from Simcha to Gila
to Rina.
Elisa refers to a specificspiritual kind of joy, which is
maybe even a resilience, becauseif you have that spiritual root
(07:57):
, then your joy comes fromknowing that the direction is
good, even when it's challenging, even when it's painful, but,
like Hashem, directs the wholething.
So that leads to an Elise kindof joy.
So, but as somebody whose innerroot is joy, I couldn't
understand what my son woulddescribe to me Like I wake up
every morning.
I'm like Modani thank you,hashem, I love being alive, I
(08:19):
can't wait to start the day.
And he would wake up in themorning thinking really, god,
again, you woke me up again.
Why don't you just take me?
I don't want to have to killmyself, but I don't want to be
in this world, so just stopwaking me up already.
That was his conversation inthe morning with Hashem.
It's like forget the moda anilike frustrated ani I know for
(08:41):
sure that he like he told youthat he would say that when he
woke up.
Yeah, and it was reallyfrustrating.
He's like why, why?
Why am I in this world?
Why did you bring me here?
Why am I here?
I don't want to be here, and hedidn't want to have to take
steps to take himself out, thathe for sure didn't want to be
here, desperately did not wantto be here, wow, so, um, right,
(09:09):
so I, in a way, I had theopportunity in terms of the
grief part, as the mother who isin conversation regularly with
this, I had the opportunity to,in a way, pre-process or
rehearse some of the grief thatwould come.
You know, what will it be like?
Like I hope he doesn't do thisand we're going to find the
right therapist and we're goingto try the right medications and
we're going to switch schoolsand we're going to switch
whatever it is, all thedifferent things over the years,
(09:29):
whatever we could do to try tohelp him.
And still the worry, like when Igo downstairs to wake him up,
will he be awake or not?
Will he be there?
Will he be there?
Like was a constant concernthat I lived with, and I didn't
even realize how much I livedwith it until Shiva, when all
the kids were sleeping in thehouse.
You know, everybody came homefor Shiva and the house was full
(09:51):
and the night was quiet.
It was two o'clock in themorning or so and I heard a big
bump in the night and I woke up.
I heard it.
I went back to sleep and I waslike I don't have to worry about
that big bump because it's notDonnie, that's for sure.
Like I don't have to.
Whatever that was, some otherkid got up, some other kids
making a snack, some other kidwent to the bathroom, whatever
it is, I don't have to worryabout that because my worry is
(10:13):
over.
And only then did I realize, ohmy gosh, every night I was
listening, every night I wasworrying.
Every night I would follow upon the sounds that I heard
because I was worrying and now Idon't have to, now it's done,
now it's over and I don't haveto have that worry.
But it was a worry for a longtime did that feel relieving or
(10:34):
didn't make you.
It was a relief that it wasn't aworry anymore.
It was definitely a relief thatwasn't a worry.
And what else was interestingabout relief in a way a guilty
relief was I had a few friendswith mentally ill children and I
and we're sort of a sorority ofthe suffering mothers with
mentally ill children we couldunderstand each other and how
(10:55):
difficult it is to have thischild who probably isn't going
to get married or isembarrassing in the firm
community.
Or the way they dress, the waythey talk, the way they smell,
the way they eat, the way they,whatever, it is right, all that.
I mean I had one.
My son did not smoke, but I hadone, um, smoke cigarettes.
But I had one.
That's a friend whose child didsmoke cigarettes.
I mean she would wake him upbefore Shabbos to make sure he
(11:17):
could smoke so that he could getthrough Shabbos without smoking
.
You know it's like it, just butShabbos without smoking.
But anyway, I felt like I leftthat sorority of the suffering
sisters when Donnie died,because now I was in a different
group, the mothers of deadchildren rather than the mothers
of mentally ill children.
(11:37):
So in a way it's weird to say,but I sort of felt like an older
single that got engaged, like Ileft your group, I graduated,
I'm not part of you anymore.
I'm not in that long-termstruggle with you anymore.
I'm in a different group.
Now I'll have my own strugglesin this group, but it's a
(11:58):
different group.
I left you.
So, yeah, there is that.
Did you lose touch with them,these mothers?
Yeah, I'm not in as much.
I mean, I'm still like summercamp friends, you know.
Like, do you talk to them overthe year?
No, and when you see them again, can you talk about it?
Yes, but it's different becauseI'm not part of that group
(12:18):
anymore.
I'm not well, I don't haveupdates on how difficult it is
that my child is still not X, yor Z or still is doing X, y and
Z.
So that's not it.
I know right where he is.
He's safe and sound, waitingfor Tresa Mason.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
What were these other mothers like when he was Nifter
?
Was it from their end like I'ma little bit jealous of you, you
don't have to deal with thisanymore?
Or was it they're bringing uptheir own fear and pain?
Speaker 3 (12:47):
It's such a good question.
I don't think anybody wouldvery few people, I think could
articulate to themselves thatthey might be jealous.
Right, that's probably true,and they certainly wouldn't say
it out loud.
It's very scary to say that outloud, you know, because you
don't ever wish that your childwas dead, even if sometimes you
might wish that the threatswould end, right, yeah.
(13:11):
So I think there probably issome.
I think there is a jealousy ofthe relief.
There is that.
I think there is that Becausethere is a relief You're not
worried anymore.
I don't have to carry it anymore, I don't have to worry on every
trip that I leave the house,like, will I come back and will
he be dead?
Will it be now?
Should I leave him now?
(13:31):
Should I, can I?
I scheduled a trip, but can Itake the trip?
Once I took him on a trip withme, because it was just a
visiting campus, mccarvin thenand I just introduced him.
As you know, my son's comingwith me, he's traveling, he has
the time, so here he is.
But really it was like I can'tleave him home and I have a trip
(13:53):
I have to do, so let's gotogether, we'll have fun.
But like, oh my gosh.
Yeah, so, yeah.
So I did.
Again, I did have the advantageof not knowing for sure, but
very strongly wondering andworrying if he would die by
suicide.
So I had the opportunity topre-process a lot of the grief
(14:13):
and the loss and even though Ididn't know, even though and I
was surprised in the moment that, like this is the moment I was
waiting for for so long and itdefinitely feels different than
I thought long, and itdefinitely feels different than
I thought.
And I also thought about all theparents who, like of sick
children, who say to themselvesor even sometimes that lot, I
wish I could take on your painand I wish you would be healed,
(14:33):
and like you shouldn't have thepain and I and I'll take it.
And I sort of feel like thathappened, like I didn't say that
to him, but he died and was outof pain and he transferred the
pain to us.
You know, we now have to walkwith that pain.
He doesn't have it and we doforever it's ours and the whole
family split it up a little bitand I have a different pain than
(14:54):
my husband has, than each ofhis siblings have, but
everybody's carrying a piece ofthe pain that he was able to
shed at his death and weinherited it, and we inherited
it and we did what.
And we inherited it.
Oh, we inherited it, yeah, yeah.
So, and it manifestsdifferently, in different ways
in each one of us and over thecourse of time.
(15:15):
It's 11 years already, so it'sdifferent now than it was in the
beginning, but one of thethings that seems to actually, I
think it's resolving a littlebit now finally at 11 years, but
for sure for the first five,six, seven, eight, nine years,
sleep disturbance is one of thethings that parents of deceased
children experience regularly,Like just their sleep is ruined
(15:37):
and it's hard to know.
Is that because I was a grievingmother?
Not that I thought about it allday long, but just the sleep
was bouncy and difficult and notrestful and like I was, like I
didn't look.
I never anyway looked forwardto going to sleep because I look
, I love waking up and startingmy day and getting going, I'm so
excited.
Sleep is like oh, you're in theway of like doing stuff.
(15:58):
So that was always frustrating.
But anyway, being a grievingmother, I have read some things
about grieving mothers and manygrief symptoms, quote unquote,
clear up in the first five years, but apparently sleep
disturbance doesn't.
That's something that lasts.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Five years isn't so long?
No, it's not.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
But I'm saying, for let's say here's a word that I
learned, for grief is griefbursts, like cloud bursts, like
you could be going along in yourlife and all of a sudden
there's a grief burst like that.
You see something, you smellsomething, you taste something,
you hear something.
You're like and the tears startto flow.
That's a grief burst, right.
And then it could happenbecause you heard a song or
whatever it is, and so there'sgrief bursts those are much less
(16:41):
intense and are much, much,much further and further between
as the years pass.
So that's, I would say that'swhat they're talking about, in a
way of symptoms clearing up.
Like you know, in the initialstages of grief, like in the
initial, like everything, allthat I felt like not that I had
experienced this ever, but I'veread about it I felt like I had
a hangover, sort of like.
Like going to the supermarketit was too loud and too bright
(17:05):
and people moved too fast andlike going down the aisles and
thinking, oh, I should buy tunafish Cause we're almost out.
Cause he loved, oh, and I don'tneed tuna fish Cause he doesn't
need tuna fish anymore.
Oh, I should buy him a Snapple.
Oh, we don't need Snapplesanymore Like that was hard, but
also like there were too manypeople there, like it was just
too much, or like Some of themeven were smiling or laughing.
(17:31):
I know, like it was just, andhow can they just go on with
their lives?
So there was that.
So there was like a sensoryoverload for the first several
months, like every time goingout with sensory overload, that
resolved.
And then, like you know,learning the laughter and
getting and enjoying life andnot feeling guilty about it.
So that also resolves.
But the sleep really stuck fora long time.
Wow, it really did.
It really did so.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Um, so let's talk about.
I'll tell you what I want totalk about.
I want to talk about number one, like the stigma of it.
I know that you, you know when,after, even after when your rev
wanted to, you know, tell you,he'll help keep, he'll help you
keep it a secret.
So I want to talk about that.
And I also want to talk about,like when we spoke a while back,
(18:10):
you gave me just such a clearlike understanding of how
suicide today is really almostalways mental illness.
You told me about the girl fromAfrica, so I found that very
like interesting.
So I guess, if we could, youknow, talk about those two
points.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
Okay, great.
So first of all, we do have astigma in the firm community and
if you look at the Maurice Lambbook on death and dying not on
death and dying, jewish laws ofdeath and mourning the chapter
in there on suicide is very sadfor the parent of a suicide
death Because it really talksabout the halachas of suicide
(18:43):
and their burial.
They're not buried withtachrichem or with a matzeva or
with kel malai, rachamim or withit.
They don't have a yard site.
They're not.
I mean, they're buried, they'renot.
None of that is afforded tothem.
And yet in the chapter it doessay but you should treat their
family with compassion.
There's no shiva even youshould treat their family with
compassion.
Okay, that's not the case today.
(19:05):
The halachic reality today isdifferent and that's for
Rabbanim to discuss and I'm nothere as in that.
But I will just say that thehalachic reality is different
today and everybody should asktheir own child.
But in general, of course, westill treat the family with
compassion.
And in general, suicide deaths,people who die by suicide are
still buried with everything.
They get a tahara, tahriyachema, everything, a matzeva, a
(19:28):
yarzeit, kel malerach, hamim,the whole shebang and a sheva
full sheva.
Why?
Because we do have a differentview in general of why people
die by suicide, or understandingof the mechanism of death or
that causes death is different,and we do understand that, not
in every case, but in many casesand most of the or that causes
death is different.
(19:48):
And we do understand that notin every case, but in many cases
and most of the cases that weexperienced today, certainly in
this country at this time thatit is mental illness that causes
that death.
Because if in this country, atthis time again, distinguished
from other parts of history,where we're not subject to
slavery, where we're not subjectto that kind of kidnapping,
where even illness can be mademore bearable by pain
(20:08):
medications and things like that, where we have enough food,
people are not starving aroundus, we have enough clothing, we
have homes, basically we're safeand secure, well-fed and
everything who wants to die inthose circumstances?
Only somebody where it's reallybroken inside them.
And that's where my muscle came,my made up story, which is a
(20:29):
true story.
It could have been true story.
You know, stories are truebecause they could have been,
they should have been, or theyor they.
They actually were.
And so here's a could be truestory, but it is a true story of
, let's just say, there's that16 year old girl in Africa who's
living in a village when themilitia comes in and kidnaps her
10 year old brother and makeshim into a soldier, pressed into
(20:52):
, given a gun and made into asoldier, and her parents are
killed in front of her and heryounger siblings are burned in
the hut along with her parents'bodies, right when she hears the
children screaming as she runs.
She's been captured but escapesbecause she knows she'll be
raped and she runs for her life.
(21:13):
And she's running and runningand running and running from
that village with nothing behindher, because her parents are
dead and her younger brotherstaken and her siblings are
killed and she has no place togo and nothing with her.
And she's running barefootthrough the briars and brambles
because she wants to live.
Because she wants to live.
She doesn't know how she'sgoing to do it, she doesn't know
where she's going to, how she'sgoing to make it happen, but
(21:34):
she knows that she wants to live.
The drive for life is so strongthat impels her to run for her
life and her life is terrible.
In that moment She'll hopefullymake something good of it.
You know, maybe she's going togrow up and be another Ayaan
Hirsi Ali, you know, who like,learns and is strong and can
change the world.
But meanwhile she just wants tolive.
(21:57):
So if the drive for life and youknow there is that girl in
Africa right now, as we speak,she exists, if her drive for
life is so strong, in thosecircumstances, somebody from our
families, safe, secure, loved,fed, cared for, educated if they
(22:19):
want to die, it's only becausesomething is so broken inside
them, so broken that we see thatas a fatal illness.
It's fatal.
It killed them.
And just like we don't blame apancreas for not working in
somebody dying of diabetes, orwe don't blame an immune system
(22:40):
for not being able to conquerthe cancer, even though we gave
it our best shot with all thechemotherapy or surgery that we
have at our avail.
But when somebody still dies ofcancer, it's not their fault,
right?
They still get to be buriedproperly.
So the same thing with suicidedeaths today.
Look, we do our very best withall the mental health
interventions that we can musterand all the medications that we
(23:00):
can find and all the schoolshifts that we can find and all
the love and care and support,therapy, et cetera, that we
could figure out.
But if they die becausesomething's so broken inside
them that we can't fix, it's nottheir fault.
So not that anybody should dothat, and anybody who's hearing
this, who's feeling suicidal,should definitely reach out for
(23:20):
help.
And anybody knows, anybody whofeels suicidal should be willing
to talk to the person about it,because I think there are
avoidable suicides, there arehumps that people could get over
and there are also chronicillnesses that they can't.
You know.
But even with a chronic illness, you can lengthen the life,
right?
I mean, I think about that withRobin Williams.
(23:45):
People say, oh, he lost thebattle.
I'm like, oh my gosh, look howmany battles he won.
I don't know who Robin?
Williams is.
Robin Williams is a famous,beloved comedian in American
society.
Famous did so many roles.
He played Aladdin in.
He played the genie in Aladdinin the Disney Aladdin.
It might be one role you'veseen him in, but he played a lot
(24:06):
of things all across the board.
But he struggled withdepression his whole life and in
the end he he died by suicideand people were devastated
because he was a very, verybeloved comedian and in general
American society really was ahard blow for like a lot of fans
and everybody felt like, oh, helost.
And I'm like, well, look whathe won.
He won decades.
He won decades of his life.
(24:33):
He made it for decades, hefought valiantly and won decades
more of life.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
He could have died in his twenties.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
He died in his sixties oh wow, so.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
So if a parent is listening to this, a parent that
lost a child by suicide, whatcould you tell them?
That they shouldn't feel guilty, that, oh, maybe it was just a
hump and they could have donemore for their child?
Speaker 3 (24:48):
You can't.
So, first of all, a parentwho's listening to this, I hope,
is a parent that believes inHashem and God.
For those of you who arelistening, who don't understand
the Hebrew, so here's atherapeutic riddle for you.
What's the difference between aJew and God?
God knows everything and a Jewknows better, right, okay?
Well, we really think we do,like we're pretty convinced we
(25:12):
do, which is why we tell God somany.
We have so many eights for God.
We have so much advice for Godin our prayers.
We're constantly telling Godwhat he should do right On
behalf of the world to make itwork, right for our kids, for
our spouses, for our schools,for our communities.
Like, we have a lot of advicefor God.
If we actually remember thatHashem does no better than us,
(25:37):
then we could trust Hashem tohave matched that soul with that
body.
I mean, he matches our ownsouls with our own bodies.
That's the first shidduch thatHashem makes is our soul with
our body, and it's a perfectmatch.
Our soul needs the body that wehave, with all of its strengths
and imperfections, in order forour soul to have its best
(25:59):
journey, because everybody onlyhas a journey.
We're all going to die in theend.
There's always a beginning andan end, and the middle is how do
we use our body and theenvironment that we're in to
achieve the best soul growthwhile we're here?
That's the whole thing right.
So we have to trust that forourselves.
We have to trust that for ourchild too.
Hashem, put that body and thatsoul together and then put that
combination of body and soulinto our family to be that
(26:21):
sibling of those kids and mychild.
I was the right parent for them.
My spouse is the right parentfor them.
They're the right child for me.
This was the right environment.
We had the right tools that areavailable.
We didn't have all the money tohire all the things.
We had the money we needed forthis child at this time.
We didn't have all thetherapists available.
(26:43):
We had the therapists that weresupposed to be the ones that
were for this child at this time.
I mean, just think aboutsomebody who, in the 1960s, when
they get breast cancer, it wasa death sentence.
We didn't even say the wordcancer in the 60s right.
I mean, I do, but a lot ofpeople still don't why?
Because they're so scared of it.
It's going to kill you, sodon't even say the word, don't
(27:03):
give it any energy by evenmentioning the name, whereas
today it's not a death sentence.
You find out you have cancer.
You're like okay, so what do Ihave to do now?
I might need surgery.
Oh, I might need medicine.
Oh, my hair might fall out, soI have to buy a new wig, okay,
okay, like.
That's not pleasant, it's not.
But you're not thinking you'regonna die.
You're thinking I'm gonna havea hard time for a couple of
(27:24):
years, right so, but that's onlytoday, in the 1960, 1960s.
If they died from that, youdon't look back and say they
should have been born in the 60s, they would have lived.
No, that's not the hashkacha.
They were born in the 60s for areason they were supposed to
die that way.
And there's gonna be new thingsthat help, like right now
(27:44):
there's deep brain stimulationthat's going on to help
medication, resistantdepressions.
But that wasn't available forDonnie at the time I did.
I contacted some people whowere in charge of some of those
clinical trials and I was toldit's not for people who are
actively suicidal.
I'm like really, because whyTry it If he's going to die from
that?
Like better than this, likereally.
(28:05):
But I had to remind myselfafterwards, as that was advanced
after his death, that like itwasn't the hashgacha that he
should have, that availability.
It wasn't.
It wasn't designed for him.
He was born at the time he wasborn and died at the time that
he died and that was thehashgacha.
He had the right parents andthe right money and the right
therapists, even if they weredifficult therapists who said
(28:28):
the wrong things and did stupidthings.
But they were the right onesfor him because Hashem brought
them together.
He made the Shadokhan and heknows the right path and our
family is supposed to go throughthis and he designed it.
So it really is.
A Be'yadot of Kidruchi is one ofmy big mantras.
Like, just rest in Hashem'shands.
It's the end of Adon Olam foranybody who's not recognizing
(28:52):
those words.
But really you just rest inHashem's hands.
I'm going to place myself inHashem's hands when I'm awake
and when I'm asleep, not just mysoul in Hashem's hands,
actually my physical body too,everything about me in Hashem's
hands and with Hashem I don'thave to be scared of anything in
Hashem's hands and with Hashem,I don't have to be scared of
anything.
Adoshem li v'lo ira Sorry that,adoshem li v'lo ira I don't
(29:16):
have to be scared of a thing andI don't have to have the
recriminations either.
You know, I don't now.
I mean it's hard and that ispart of the sleep disturbance
right after that kind of a deathis like you're oh, maybe I
should have this, maybe I shouldhave that, maybe I should have
this, maybe I should have that.
And I read a lot of books inthat time that made me wonder oh
(29:37):
, if I would have known this.
Oh, if I would have understoodthat sign, oh, if I would have
done this like, but I didn'tknow that.
Then right, and that was thehashgacha too, right, you know.
And just to really trust thatHashem gives you what you need.
Yes, you should try to stretchyourself, yes, you should try to
learn, but can you fix thewhole world?
You can't.
Can you fix your own child?
(29:58):
Actually, you can't, you can't.
All you can do is your verybest with the tools you have in
the time that you have, and thenyou have to release it.
There's no point, I mean, for me, I feel like.
There's no point in letting thattake over my life.
I have the rest of my life tolive.
It's a piece that I live with.
It's a growth.
(30:19):
It was a whole growth workshopfor the 19 years that I had him
and that got more intense atdifferent times and, having lost
him, also as part of my ongoinggrowth workshop, and creates
new connections and new insightsand new challenges and all
along the way and that's thehashgacha too Hashem set me up
for what he wants me to do inthis world and that was part of
(30:41):
it.
And all I can do is say, hashem, you gave this to me.
Please help me live with it.
Please help me do the best thatI can with whatever you gave me
.
So that's what I would say toparents who are feeling so
guilty is feel it and thenrelease it.
Feel it first to say I feelreally guilty that I didn't
mortgage my house to send mychild to that treatment program,
(31:03):
but then we'd be on the streetand we'd still have a dead child
, so I'm actually thankful Istill have my house.
You know something?
Speaker 2 (31:10):
less like I feel guilty that I gave him the car.
I should have known that he'sgoing to drive into the ocean or
whatever.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
Right, but you didn't know Right, but you didn't know
you know.
So then you can work with itLike I, I should have known.
Well, you didn't know.
So then you can say switch itto I'm so sad that I didn't know
Right.
Right Instead of I should have,because if you should have, you
would have right, becauseHashem's in charge of that.
If you should have, you wouldhave right.
That's just sadly cold turkey.
(31:38):
Hashem gives me everything thatI need.
He also makes every need that Ihave.
It's the other way to read thatsame, those same exact words I
wouldn't have a need if Hashemdidn't give me the need.
I wouldn't have a need ifHashem didn't give me the need
but also give me everything thatI need.
So if you shoulda, you woulda,but you could just feel sad.
I wish I would have known.
I wouldn't have given him thecar.
But then what you know, whoknows?
(32:02):
But I did, and he made hischoices.
I can't be responsible for hischoices, I can only be
responsible for mine.
And so now here I am, after mychild is dead.
Let me be responsible for mychoices.
Now, how will I treat my family?
How will I treat myself?
How will I build myrelationship back with Hashem
Maybe if I have a little pausein that relationship, because
(32:23):
that's very common to have a Idon't feel like talking to you
much Hashem kind of period inyour life.
And that's okay.
It's okay to have a littlepause in communication and
recognize it as a pause Just say, look, I don't really want to
talk to you right now.
Give me a very hard time and Ineed to digest this a little bit
before we have our nextconversation, and just saying I
(32:43):
don't want to talk to you rightnow shows you still have that
connection.
Yeah it does.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
It does.
So after Donnie was nifter, wasyour, did your your
grandchildren died half farapart.
Speaker 3 (32:56):
So I had a granddaughter, a twin baby, two
week old twin baby girl who diedsix months before Donnie died.
Oh wow, and then and then,actually she died in November.
Donnie died in May and then myfather in she died in November.
Daini died in May and then myfather-in-law died in October,
ereph Sukkos.
So my husband lost threegenerations in one year.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
Wow.
Should I ask him how he managedor should I ask him how he he
had a hard time managing.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
He's still in his pause with the show, but she
didn't pause at the time.
He really paused it, I wouldsay, after our grandson died
three years later and that was ayear-long battle with migrating
partial seizures of infancy,which is a terrible seizure
disorder that just basicallyspontaneous start, drug
resistant.
Even though they could give himmorphine to make him more
(33:46):
comfortable, they couldn't stopthe seizures and they just
basically had to wait until hisbrain sees out a terrible way to
die.
Take a whole year to just haveseizure after seizure, after
seizure until you brought hecan't stand it anymore and it
just expires, so, um.
So my daughter went through thatvaliantly daughter and
(34:08):
son-in-law and um, and myhusband kept with the updates
and the doctors and theeverything-law and um, and my
husband kept with the updatesand the doctors and the
everything, but at the end hewas like, really Like it's one
thing to take our son who livedand had a hard life and a good
life also.
What's another thing to takeour daughter's son, who only had
a hard life, he never had agood day, you know, and and that
was very hard on my husbandvery hard day, you know, and and
(34:31):
that was very hard on myhusband very hard.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
But what do people say?
People would say like he onlyhad a hard life.
Now he doesn't have a hard lifeanymore.
Right, like, find the comfortthat he's not suffering anymore.
Speaker 3 (34:43):
Oh, yeah, Except for then.
But if you're going to go thatway, I'll just say the darker
side is really God.
You would bring a child intothis world just to torture him
every day for a whole year.
What was that about?
Speaker 2 (34:57):
Is it harder to see your grandchild in pain or to
see your child in pain over thepain of their child?
Speaker 3 (35:03):
Right, it's very hard to see your child in pain.
I mean, I think it was harderto watch her in that pain than
to watch Donnie in his pain.
You know so, the child that welost in the pain that he
suffered with, he did suffer,but to watch our daughter suffer
with losing that child was wasa different kind of pain.
Yeah, yeah, Just, it is a verydifferent kind of pain.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
And it was interesting when so that her she
had a five-year-old and aalmost four-year-old at the time
, five-year-old and a three anda half-year-old when he died.
Speaker 3 (35:38):
So the five-year-old was there.
How old was the baby when heended up?
The baby was one year oldexactly Wow when he died.
And then she had a five and athree and a half above him when
the Chavar, kadisha, came to thehouse to take away the baby.
So I took the five-year-old.
The three and a half year oldwasn't there, but the
five-year-old was in the room.
So I just said come with meinto the basement, like we'll
sit on chair.
I didn't want her to see themlike pick him up out of his crib
(36:01):
and take him away.
So I held her on my lap and wejust talked.
You know what's happeningupstairs and why are they doing
it and what's going to be nextand what's that can be like
makes me tear up a little bitjust to think about.
But she said I'm really mad ata shem at five, at five.
She said that.
She said I'm really mad at ashem wow, that he died.
I said talk to your grandfatherabout that.
(36:24):
He is so did they?
I don't know if they talkedabout that and they might still,
but I'll tell you this.
I think this is something tothink about in terms of whether
it's relief from grief or thecontinuing pathway from grief.
But here's a thought that I had.
So that same granddaughter lastyear she was 12, or maybe just
(36:48):
almost 12 when her othergrandfather died of cancer and
she wasn't sure does she want togo to the funeral or not go to
the funeral?
She's like old enough that shecould, but young enough that
she's not sure if she, you know,like what should she do?
So she ended up coming to thecemetery and then she, when she
saw the open grave before theAron got there, she was like I
(37:10):
don't know if I want to do this.
So she went and sat in the car.
So I, but I talked to her causeit was a little while and you
know in that space and I talkedto her about the river of grief,
which is something I made up,um, but I liked the idea.
So I said you know, there's ariver of grief that runs through
your life.
It starts when you're born,when you disconnect from
(37:36):
Shemayim and you're born intothis world.
There's a sense of loss and youcry when you come into the
world.
Oh, my gosh, I have to be inthis world.
But I was in the zone ofKedusha and Tahara and I have to
come into this world of likephysicality.
How hard is that?
I'm grieving the loss of that.
And I said and then there's ariver of grief.
That's sometime in thebackground and sometimes in the
foreground of your life, butit's always there.
So when you lost your babybrother, you were swimming in
(37:57):
the river of grief.
Remember we sat there in thatchair and we talked about it a
little bit.
You were taking a swim in theriver of grief.
And then when your friend losestheir grandparent so you're not
grieving then, but you might besitting on the edge of your
river of grief and just danglingyour toes and feeling their
sorrow but it touches your river.
(38:17):
And right now you're on theedge of your river of grief with
this loss of your grandfatherand you're not quite sure how to
process it.
It wasn't the closestrelationship, but it touches
your river of grief.
That's what's happening for you.
That's why you're having thesemixed feelings.
It's like what do I do?
Do I sit on the edge?
Do I take a swim?
(38:37):
Do I wade in?
Like where should I be in thisriver of grief?
And how is it touching me?
Do I want to stand there?
Do I want to stand here, likeit's, but it's.
What you're feeling is the angstof coming into relationship
with your river of grief, whichwill be there for you always in
your life.
It never goes away.
You just come closer or furtherfrom it.
Sometimes you forget that it'srunning in the background and
(39:00):
sometimes you come in verystrong relationship with it,
like when you lose somebody youreally love.
Sometimes even a pet, you know,can bring you to your river of
grief in a different way.
So so I like the idea that Icame up with just to talk to her
about that.
We have, we all have our riverof grief, and sometimes somebody
else's loss brings us to aplace where we could consider a
(39:22):
loss that we hadn't consideredbefore.
You know something that like,let's say, a five-year-old loses
a grandparent, so they didn'treally have a loving connection
with them yet.
Maybe, maybe they were distantgrandparent.
But at 15, when their friendloses a grandparent, that's when
they realize, oh my gosh, notonly did I lose a grandparent,
but I didn't have them for thelast 10 years.
Look, my friend who's 15, gotto go on trips with their
(39:45):
grandparent.
I lost that Right, and so Ihave to revisit that.
Like I lost that, and so I haveto revisit that, like I lost
that potential.
I didn't understand it at fivebut I understand it now at 15.
So whatever it is that, and youfeel it again when you're 65
and you realize I don't reallyknow how to be a grandparent
like that, because I lost minewhen I was five, so I lost the
(40:05):
example.
So that's part of the river ofgrief and we revisit it at
different times in differentways throughout our life when we
understand different pieces oflosses that we're dealing with.
And it's all part of that riverof grief that courses through
our life, that everyone has soyou can't leave it behind, but
you can come into differentrelationships with it over over
(40:26):
time so do you and your twodaughters.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
They do you like connect that you each lost a
child or each loss was sodifferent.
Speaker 3 (40:35):
Yeah, each loss is very different but we do connect
.
I mean, I lit a candle forDonnie for 19 years and three
months, so I still do Fridaynights you know he's part of my
candle lighting and then both ofthem had to figure out should
they?
Shouldn't?
They Do they keep lighting acandle for that child.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
You mean regular, like by L'Chpenshaw?
Yeah, why wouldn't they?
Speaker 3 (40:58):
Right.
So the why wouldn't they?
So why wouldn't they for aone-year-old?
Is one thing, why wouldn't theyfor a two-week-old?
Is another thing, right thing.
Why wouldn't they for a twoweek old?
Is another thing, right?
How much mothership do you getto own over a stillbirth or over
a child who's born sick andwill likely die, but you hope
(41:20):
won't, but then does.
Do you get to claim them asyour child or not?
Do other people say yes, oh,but they were only two weeks.
Yeah, but they're only twoweeks, but there were nine
months of hope.
But there were actually fouryears of dreams and then nine
months of hope and then twoweeks of life.
Like, how much do you get toown that?
So I think that that is its ownjourney, also in coming into
(41:42):
relationship with how much areyou the mother of that child,
you know.
And then, how much do you wantto say that out loud when people
come to your house and see yourcandles and say why do you
light six candles when you onlyhave three children?
Right, or whatever it is?
Speaker 2 (41:57):
So then you have to explain it again like, okay,
having a stillborn is verypainful and very huge and malky.
You know clerson felton kind offiam has, it's very like real.
But still the difference isfrom the people that I spoke to,
(42:18):
from having a stillborn even ifit's in your ninth month, it's
a baby that lived three secondsis world apart.
Yeah, like once the baby letout that cry or took oxygen in,
it's just it was a real livingthing, even if it lived for five
seconds.
And that's why when you'retalking about a two week old,
I'm like two weeks is two weeks.
Speaker 3 (42:35):
Two weeks is two weeks and two weeks is a lot.
One of the things that washelpful for me in understanding
the purpose of a two week lifeof illness or the purpose of a
one year life of suffering, is Isee them as chesed pullers.
They pull chesed from others.
That could be their purpose Ifolam chesed yibaneh, if this
(42:57):
world is built on chesed and weneed chesed in a way, as the
fuel to keep the world going.
So some people's job is tocreate opportunities for chesed
to be that darling little babythat needs chesed, or the baby
in the family where the familyneeds the chesed, needs the
meals, needs the rides, needsthe love, needs the hugs, needs
the tzedakah, whatever it isthat they could be somebody who
(43:22):
brings chesed into the worldthrough their needs.
So I feel like both of thosebabies were chesed pullers and
they pulled chesed out of somany people really in remarkable
ways.
Who knows, you know, were theyborn to suffer?
I don't think so.
Did they need to suffer inorder to do what they needed to
do in this world?
Clearly they did Right.
(43:42):
So, but that is where I dotrust Hashem to know that he
knows the exact cheshbon.
He's not torturing somebody'sstomach, no, you know, he knew
the exact khezben for why thatchild had to come in, what they
had to experience, what theparents had to experience, what
the grandparents had toexperience and what the friends
of the parents had to experience.
(44:03):
You know, each one in its outerrings, some with just a sigh oh
my gosh, did you hear theso-and-sos had a baby.
That's sick, oh that's sick, oh, that's so sad.
Even that tiny bit of suffering, that's all.
That's the whole comment andthat's all the suffering that
person got in their life, threefriendship rings away from the
center.
Okay, they were supposed toexperience that little bit, you
know, whatever it was, so it'snot for nothing.
Whatever Hashem does, it's allcalculated carefully and for me,
(44:28):
I trust in that very deeply,and that makes the whole thing
not have to always make sense,because it always does make
sense, if you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
How often do you have to rework that trust?
Or it's like so strong that itnever diminishes?
Speaker 3 (44:44):
I would say that I've worked at so many times Like I
worked at so many times duringDonnie's life that it really
stood there very clearly for meat Donnie's death.
And then I worked at many moretimes, you know, as Donnie, like
in those first few months ofreally just dealing with the I
trust you Hashem, but this is sohard.
I regularly would say, lookjust to remind myself, not that
(45:07):
I didn't believe it, but just Iwould say like Hashem, hashem,
kel, rachum vachanon, and Iwould just stop there, like it's
the Yiddish, but I just saythose first four like you're, so
like I have to put all thisinto the package of I don't know
, like that's your definition,hashem is that you're, and
(45:30):
somehow this experience fitsinto that.
I trust that.
And so I just said it a lot,just like walking down the
street, like rachum vachanen,hashem is rachum vachanen.
So I, that was part of like itwas part of a walking meditation
, of reminding myself andreadjusting and realigning on a
regular basis.
And then I, just I, I regularlyone of the things I did was like
(45:51):
when I would feel like Donnie'sneshama heavy or the grief
heavy, I mean it's just like seehis neshama, kind of like a
little dove in my hands and Iwould like just hold it and then
, like like a dove, cast it upto Hashem and just say here,
hashem, please catch Donnie'sneshama.
Like that's what you wanted,but like take his neshama and
love it Like it's it's by younow, not by me.
(46:13):
You entrusted his neshama intomy care for those 19 years and
then really for the first 13years and then, like you know,
he's in charge after that, butstill he was in under my roof.
Like I had 19 years of caringfor this neshama and now it's
your job, hashem.
Like my job is over and yourjob isn't.
Fortunately, you could do a lotof jobs all at the same time.
Speaker 2 (46:35):
I like the visual of the dove.
I always imagine I don't knowlike a box or balloons or
something like that.
But it doesn't have to be onlythe neshama.
It could be like my pain righthere.
Speaker 3 (46:45):
Just for me I'm in too much pain today, or whatever
it is Right Just to cast it up,like let it fly up, cast it up
and give it back to Hashem, yeah, yeah, so I did that a lot and
I think I think all thatstrengthened it.
That's the answer to thatquestion.
Like it, it was strong before,but it's like definitely woven
tighter into the fabric of mypersonality and spiritual
(47:06):
clarity.
Right, all those exercises.
Speaker 2 (47:08):
Right Life, you know, makes you always.
I don't know how do you say re,weave it into the fabric?
It can be so tight, but youconstantly have to be weaving it
more and tighter and adifferent color and a different
direction and a different Idon't know what.
Speaker 3 (47:25):
Right right.
So let's just go back to thesecret thing for a second,
because the stigma we want totalk about that like the stigma
in our community.
So I think if we keep it secret, first of all that keeps us
separate from our community.
It will perpetuate our ownparental sense of shame, because
you keep secrets because of theshame.
But then it also not only doesit perpetuate your own sense of
(47:47):
shame but also then keeps you ina bubble, distant from your
community, because you can't behonest.
You have to actually lie tokeep it a secret.
Right, oh, it was a caraccident.
Oh, it was a heart thing.
Oh, it was a heart thing.
Oh, it was a whatever thing,right?
So you're lying.
Who knows how that works withthe mitvashak or tirhak thing
that we also have.
But let's just separate that.
The point that I want to get tois you can't have emotional
(48:10):
intimacy with lies.
Lies prevent intimacy.
So if you want to havefriend-timacy, even intimate
friendships or even just cleansocial discourse with community
members, if a lie is mixed intothat or if you can't be seen for
who you actually are, then youcan never feel valued for who
(48:32):
you are.
If you're projecting somethingthat's not you or projecting a
death story that's not yourfamily's death story.
So then you know people onlyare accepting your story and not
you, because you've never letthem see you or what happened.
I advocate for honesty here,even though it's really
difficult and even though peoplemight look askance.
But I feel like if we can standstrong in our vulnerability and
(48:54):
say I did the best I could, andeven if right away you feel
like I did the best I could, andeven if right away you feel
like I did the best I could butI failed, or I'm not even sure
if I did the best I could andI'm so sad that my child is dead
, but if you can stand in thatsorrow and even in that sense of
failure and let your communitymembers hopefully embrace you in
that, even though people willsay stupid things like whatever
(49:15):
it is like you have more kids oryou did you.
There's all kinds of stupidthings that people can say, but
still, on the other side of allof that, in a year or two, the
honesty creates honestrelationships, which helps you
feel actually properly supportedand then also leads to others
being able to be honest and beproperly supported before and
(49:36):
after a death.
So what if somebody just has amentally ill child who's not
headed towards death, hopefully,but is mentally ill?
If there could be the honestyof like I am struggling with
this, it's so hard Like ifsomebody had cancer.
I thought about that,struggling with Donnie and his
mental illness.
If my kid would have cancer andhad to go to the hospital,
people would make meals for usand ask how he's doing and daven
(49:57):
for him, but not with amentally ill child.
They just look at you and saywhat kind of a parent are you
that you let your child be likethat?
You know it was all thisjudgment, so much judgment.
Why is he dressed like that?
Why does he do that?
All that judgment?
I mean I remember once going toa bar mitzvah of Down syndrome
child.
I have a grandson with Downsyndrome but this was before he
(50:17):
was old enough to be barmitzvahed and this child was
able to have bar mitzvah and hemade a bracha for his aliyah.
That you could only understandif you understood how he spoke.
It was not like somebody else,hearing a recording of that,
wouldn't know what he said, butthere was a news station there
and so many guests there and itwas videoed and shared and
(50:39):
everybody's so proud of him thathe made it to that day.
And I was thinking, when mymentally ill child makes it to
bar mitzvah and makes a bracha,everybody's going to say why
didn't he make a seum?
Nobody's going to say, wow,that's amazing, you kept him
alive to this day.
He was able to make a bracha.
That's amazing.
Nobody's going to film it,nobody's going to broadcast it,
(51:01):
Nobody's going to congratulateme.
They're just going to saywhere's his seum?
How come you didn't do that too?
Or at least that's how I felt.
So that if we could be morehonest and I wasn't sharing at
that time and most people can't,but still, the point is at this
point, more mature, more triedand more mature I can't advocate
(51:25):
for that honesty because Ithink that will strengthen our
community and help us carrythose.
We're really carrying somethingso hard that we could be the
neighbor who at least gives ahug or says how's your son doing
?
You know, and when somebodycan't say Baruch Hashem, they
could say Gamz L'tova.
I can't say Baruch Hashem onhow he's doing, but I could say
Gamzul L'tova.
I know Hashem is only doingwhat's good in the world,
whatever that is.
I trust him on that.
Speaker 2 (51:45):
So I think that, for someone listening to this, I
think one of the things that Iwould want a appearance to take
away is to not be ashamed of it,to be able to really open up
about it and to not take theblame for it, right.
Speaker 3 (52:01):
Yeah, I think that's really important is that there's
there's not blame, just likethere's not blame with diabetes
or asthma, you know, okay Withasthma.
So if you say, why do you havea cat when your child is
asthmatic?
So then you might say, get ridof the cat, your child's having
asthma problems all the time,right?
So, but you do your best.
What are you doing with yourmentally ill child?
(52:21):
So, okay, get rid of thedifficult teacher or the school
situation.
That's not working right orwhatever.
It is Okay, you do your best,but you can only do what you can
do.
And then there's no blame afterthat.
There's not, there's justcompassion, and I think that's
one of the things we have toremember all the time.
It's like Hashem we're createdin the image of God, created in
the image of Hashem, and Hashemis rachum v'chanun.
(52:43):
When we talk about the yudgimel midos of, it's never yud
gimel midos of ka'as, it's neverof anger, it's never.
It's never.
13 attributes of anger, 13attributes of condescension, 13
attributes of whatever it is.
It's 13 attributes of rachamim.
That's how we know Hashem 13different flavors of rachamim
(53:09):
and we're supposed to live thatin this world.
13 different ways.
Speaker 2 (53:13):
What if a parent would say to 13 different ways
of rachamim and Hashem couldn'tfind in those 13 attributes
enough rachamim that my childshould be okay?
I must be a really bad person.
Speaker 3 (53:24):
Right.
So that's where you have tounderstand that Hashem knows.
That's where that therapeuticjoke comes in, right?
Because that's where you'resecond guessing Hashem.
That's the point of that joke.
It's the point of it and that'swhy it's therapeutic.
That's where you can ask theperson just privately what's the
difference between Hashem and aJew?
Hashem knows everything and aJew knows better, right, hashem
(53:45):
does know better.
Somehow this fits into that,but I don't know how yet and
maybe I won't know while I'mstill alive.
But in the end we say in SheremAles and Shabbos, azim Ales,
chokpinu.
Then in those days our mouthswill be filled with laughter
(54:06):
because we're going to get it atsome point, but not now.
If we don't see it now, all wehave to do, all we can do, is
trust that Hashem actually hasit stronger than we think.
And you know, sometimes I feellike you might look at Hashem
and say I don't know what you'rethinking, hashem, but I know
you are thinking.
I know you are.
Speaker 2 (54:26):
Right, okay, well, thank you so so much for coming
on.
Speaker 3 (54:33):
Anything like that we forgot to say.
That's important.
Before we end, I would say thisOkay, one more important piece.
I would say this okay, one moreimportant piece.
Like if you are dealing with achild who's mentally ill or
suicidal, or you have this likeheavy thing that you're carrying
, there's no blame for you, butthere's also no blame for your
spouse, and I think that'sreally important to know that.
Like turn towards each other, tobe a team in carrying it is so
(54:54):
important, even if you carry itin different ways you don't have
to both do the same things orthink the same things but at
least to be on a team before,during and after.
Like just make the choice toturn towards each other again
and again and again and be ateam in handling it.
So important that your marriageshouldn't break up over this,
(55:14):
because it's very trying, very,very trying, and you can make a
proactive choice.
We will grow through this as wego through this, but we'll make
the choice to grow through thisand grow our marriage.
Even during the hard times,like we're going to stick
together and be a team.
So that's what I would want aparent to also take away.
Speaker 2 (55:34):
Develop your team.
Does a spouse develop that teamif the other spouse doesn't
want, like doesn't agree withanything that the spouse is
saying?
Speaker 3 (55:43):
They might need to be in denial or have some distance
, like in our case.
It was easier for me to haveall those conversations with
Donnie and my husband wasn'table to.
It was too hard for him, but itdidn't mean that he disagreed
with having them.
It did mean sometimes we didn'ttalk about all the things
because it was too much for oneto handle or the other.
Okay, so I took on a differentrole than he took on, but I
(56:07):
think that's part of it is torespect the other's needs and
capacity and gifts in the wholething.
And sometimes you fill in.
You know, sometimes like let'sjust say, I mean everybody could
, even though it's not always,but most often the wife that
cleans the kitchen, motsiShabbos or whatever but if she
(56:27):
has the flu, he's not going tojust let the kitchen look like
that till Wednesday.
When she feels better and canget out of bed, he'll clean the
kitchen or he'll get the teenagedaughters to help or the
teenage sons to help or figureout a way so the kitchen doesn't
look like that for days anddays.
Right, you pitch in when theother one can't and you just
have to know.
It's with kitchen work, it'swith homework, it's with income,
(56:48):
it's with whatever it is, it'swith rides for kids, it's with
handling the challenges in life.
You pitch in how you can, and alittle beyond how you can, when
the other one can't, becausewe're a team.
So you just want to developyour team sense and pitch in as
much as you can.
Speaker 2 (57:05):
Okay, well, okay, so much, and it should be for Nalia
, for Donnie's Neshama.
Speaker 1 (57:13):
You've just listened to an episode of the Relief from
Grief podcast with MiriamRiviat, brought to you by Mayrim
.
For more episodes, visit theMayrim website at wwwmayrimorg.
Help us reach more people whomight benefit from this podcast.
If you know someone who couldfind it helpful, please share it
with them.
If you have questions orcomments for the speaker, or if
(57:36):
you'd like to suggest a guestfor the podcast, we'd love to
hear from you.
Email us at relieffromgrief atmayrimorg.
We look forward to having youjoin us in the next episode.
Welcome to the Relief from Grief podcast, hosted by
Mrs Miriam Rebiet and brought toyou by Mayrim.
Mayrim is an organizationdedicated to supporting families
who have experienced the lossof a child.
It was founded by EloiNishmat's, nechama Liba and
Miriam Holman.
Despite her illness, miriamdevoted herself to addressing
(00:22):
the needs of parents andsiblings grappling with the
immense pain of losing a child.
She felt this loss deeply,having experienced it firsthand
when her older sister, nechamaLiba, passed away.
Mehrim continues to uplift andexpand on the work Miriam began,
a mission carried forward byher parents with great
dedication.
(00:43):
If you have any questions orcomments for the speaker, or if
you'd like to suggest a guestfor the podcast, please email us
at relieffromgrief at mayrimorg.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Hi everybody.
Thank you so much for joiningme here on the Relief from Grief
podcast Today.
I am very happy to welcome MrsElisa Bulow to the podcast.
She's the founding director ofCORE, which is an organization
that connects and supports womenthat serve the CLAL, such as
CLAL teachers, rebetzins andlots of other things right.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Yeah, we have our Kedisha members, heads of
not-for-profits that serve theJewish people.
Classroom teachers, adulteducators.
We have all kinds of trainingand support programs for women
who serve the clout in manydifferent ways.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
It's amazing.
I know that you're like growingbigger and bigger and bigger.
It's amazing to see what you'redoing.
Okay, so should we start off alittle bit with your story.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Sure, which story would you like to hear?
Well, I thought about your sona little bit, but if you have
other exciting stories, Well, Iwould say, let's see, I
definitely lost a son, there'sno question about that, but I
also lost two grandchildren, sothere's all kinds of grief that
could be there.
So it's interesting it's calledRelief from Grief your podcast
(02:02):
and yeah, maybe it's how youdeal with it, or the relief from
the heaviness of it, and it'spart of all of our lives.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
So I'll share with you.
That's always interesting to me.
Like I appreciate is the wordappreciate when I speak to
people that lost children andgrandchildren, like Barbara
Ben-Susan came on and Mrs AlyssaFelder.
She didn't go live yet.
Maybe by the time this goeslive she'll be live, but she
also lost a child in agrandchild, so maybe we'll have
(02:32):
time to get to that.
But I think the point over hereis that we really want to talk
about suicide deaths and howthat impacts the community and
how we could try to take awaythe shame a little bit, Okay.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
So I could say I'm experienced in grief.
And then there's the my sondied by suicide.
So what does that mean?
What does that mean for ourfamily?
What does that mean in thecommunity?
You know, it's very interestingthat two years before my son
died and he was 19 years old andhe had mental illness from a
very young age he wanted to die.
And it was very weird talkingto a five-year-old who would say
(03:03):
to me at the time that he wasfive, we lived in Long Beach,
long Island, near the ocean, andhe would say I just want to
walk into the ocean and keep ongoing.
It was very clear from a veryyoung age like I don't want to
be here, and he couldn't evenarticulate it.
He was too young to articulatehis feelings.
But as he got older he was veryclear Like I never asked to
(03:24):
come and I don't want to stay.
Why should I be here?
You made a choice with Abba tohave another child, but I didn't
make a choice to be your child.
I don't want to be here.
And so I definitely raised achild that I was pretty sure
would die by suicide.
For me it wasn't a shock.
It was something that I thathung over the course of raising
(03:47):
him Um.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
I interrupt you a second.
We have to talk about thephrase died by suicide, right?
Because I know, when I waswriting the section of the book
of you know the you know thebook that I'm working on, um the
suicide section, and that'swhen I got my lesson that it's
died by suicide and not.
What did I used?
Speaker 3 (04:03):
to say Committed suicide.
Not committed suicide.
People have worked with theword committed.
They don't like the wordcommitted suicide because it
sounds like committing a sin orcommitting a crime.
So they don't want to saycommitted suicide for the person
that they love who died bysuicide.
And right after Donnie died,the language that I was seeing
was people would say completedsuicide because they wanted to
stick with the C.
But I didn't like that either,because there's suicide attempts
(04:26):
and but this person completedsuicide, like I much prefer the
died by suicide.
I mean that does mean suicideliterally does mean killing
oneself.
The side is killing likehomicide or other sides,
insecticide or herbicide.
Side means kill whatever you'rekilling insecticide for insects
and herbicide for plants,that's for dandelions.
(04:46):
So suicide is yourself.
Yeah, died by suicide.
So why and I think that's partof the stigma that's around it
is why does somebody die bysuicide?
Why would somebody take theirown life?
What's up with that?
Is that mental illness?
Is that anger?
Is that selfishness there's somuch about?
Is there's so much about thedying?
Is that cowardice?
(05:07):
You know, why do people die bysuicide?
And we have so much conversationand in our, in our texts, in
our sacred texts, you know, inthe, in the Gemara.
It talks about, um, a boatloadof children who are being, who
were captured from Yerushalayim,captured from Eretz Yis, israel
, and then taken.
They were in the boat on theirway to Rome and they all looked
(05:29):
at each other, all these youngteenagers, and they noticed oh
my gosh, we're all good looking,guess where we're going.
We're going into slavery to beused for our looks and used.
And they decided together,collectively, to jump over the
side of the boat and not allowthat slavery, which is dying by
suicide, right, which maybe youwould say.
(05:50):
I mean and this is wherethere's discussion in the Gemara
was that mutter or not?
They knew that they didn't wantto be over on Giloy Araya, so
they didn't want to have to besold as slaves for that.
And that's one of the things,that that's one of the three
things that you are.
You should die rather than dothat Avera.
But it was before they did theAvera, before they were
confronted with the Avera.
(06:11):
Was it mutter to have theunderstanding that they're
headed towards that and killthemselves before they got there
?
Or should they have done it inthe moment when they were first
sold and then requested to dowhatever terrible thing they
would have to do.
Like you know, anyway, there'sall kinds of what is it?
And then we have assistedsuicide today, where people like
(06:32):
they know they're going to dieand would they rather die with
dignity or by choice before theydie of the suffering or
whatever.
There's all kinds ofconversations about it.
Or you're in the Warsaw ghettoand you're afraid of what's
coming.
Did people die by suicide?
Look, there's a lot of thingsare coming out.
And was there suicide in theHolocaust?
There was certainly.
It seems like there was somesignificant suicide after the
(06:55):
Holocaust, where people made itthrough all those years and then
made it through with hope andthen at the end, when they went
home to see their families or toreunite and they saw
everybody's dead.
That's when some people killedthemselves because they're like
now there's no hope.
Like at least in the camps, wehad hope that our lives would
get back to normal, but now thatwe see that our house has been
(07:15):
burned down or taken over by theneighbors and our family is
dead, like now, there's no pointin hoping, and so there's no
point in living.
Now, there's no point in hopingand so there's no point in
living.
So what is suicide as a whole?
Big question In my life with mychild.
It was very clear that therewas a mental illness that was
(07:36):
deep and abiding and long-term,pervasive, chronic, of not
wanting to live and not beingable to understand it.
You know my name's Elisa, whichmeans joy, and it actually
refers.
We have a lot of names for joyin Judaism, from Simcha to Gila
to Rina.
Elisa refers to a specificspiritual kind of joy, which is
maybe even a resilience, becauseif you have that spiritual root
(07:57):
, then your joy comes fromknowing that the direction is
good, even when it's challenging, even when it's painful, but,
like Hashem, directs the wholething.
So that leads to an Elise kindof joy.
So, but as somebody whose innerroot is joy, I couldn't
understand what my son woulddescribe to me Like I wake up
every morning.
I'm like Modani thank you,hashem, I love being alive, I
(08:19):
can't wait to start the day.
And he would wake up in themorning thinking really, god,
again, you woke me up again.
Why don't you just take me?
I don't want to have to killmyself, but I don't want to be
in this world, so just stopwaking me up already.
That was his conversation inthe morning with Hashem.
It's like forget the moda anilike frustrated ani I know for
(08:41):
sure that he like he told youthat he would say that when he
woke up.
Yeah, and it was reallyfrustrating.
He's like why, why?
Why am I in this world?
Why did you bring me here?
Why am I here?
I don't want to be here, and hedidn't want to have to take
steps to take himself out, thathe for sure didn't want to be
here, desperately did not wantto be here, wow, so, um, right,
(09:09):
so I, in a way, I had theopportunity in terms of the
grief part, as the mother who isin conversation regularly with
this, I had the opportunity to,in a way, pre-process or
rehearse some of the grief thatwould come.
You know, what will it be like?
Like I hope he doesn't do thisand we're going to find the
right therapist and we're goingto try the right medications and
we're going to switch schoolsand we're going to switch
whatever it is, all thedifferent things over the years,
(09:29):
whatever we could do to try tohelp him.
And still the worry, like when Igo downstairs to wake him up,
will he be awake or not?
Will he be there?
Will he be there?
Like was a constant concernthat I lived with, and I didn't
even realize how much I livedwith it until Shiva, when all
the kids were sleeping in thehouse.
You know, everybody came homefor Shiva and the house was full
(09:51):
and the night was quiet.
It was two o'clock in themorning or so and I heard a big
bump in the night and I woke up.
I heard it.
I went back to sleep and I waslike I don't have to worry about
that big bump because it's notDonnie, that's for sure.
Like I don't have to.
Whatever that was, some otherkid got up, some other kids
making a snack, some other kidwent to the bathroom, whatever
it is, I don't have to worryabout that because my worry is
(10:13):
over.
And only then did I realize, ohmy gosh, every night I was
listening, every night I wasworrying.
Every night I would follow upon the sounds that I heard
because I was worrying and now Idon't have to, now it's done,
now it's over and I don't haveto have that worry.
But it was a worry for a longtime did that feel relieving or
(10:34):
didn't make you.
It was a relief that it wasn't aworry anymore.
It was definitely a relief thatwasn't a worry.
And what else was interestingabout relief in a way a guilty
relief was I had a few friendswith mentally ill children and I
and we're sort of a sorority ofthe suffering mothers with
mentally ill children we couldunderstand each other and how
(10:55):
difficult it is to have thischild who probably isn't going
to get married or isembarrassing in the firm
community.
Or the way they dress, the waythey talk, the way they smell,
the way they eat, the way they,whatever, it is right, all that.
I mean I had one.
My son did not smoke, but I hadone, um, smoke cigarettes.
But I had one.
That's a friend whose child didsmoke cigarettes.
I mean she would wake him upbefore Shabbos to make sure he
(11:17):
could smoke so that he could getthrough Shabbos without smoking
.
You know it's like it, just butShabbos without smoking.
But anyway, I felt like I leftthat sorority of the suffering
sisters when Donnie died,because now I was in a different
group, the mothers of deadchildren rather than the mothers
of mentally ill children.
(11:37):
So in a way it's weird to say,but I sort of felt like an older
single that got engaged, like Ileft your group, I graduated,
I'm not part of you anymore.
I'm not in that long-termstruggle with you anymore.
I'm in a different group.
Now I'll have my own strugglesin this group, but it's a
(11:58):
different group.
I left you.
So, yeah, there is that.
Did you lose touch with them,these mothers?
Yeah, I'm not in as much.
I mean, I'm still like summercamp friends, you know.
Like, do you talk to them overthe year?
No, and when you see them again, can you talk about it?
Yes, but it's different becauseI'm not part of that group
(12:18):
anymore.
I'm not well, I don't haveupdates on how difficult it is
that my child is still not X, yor Z or still is doing X, y and
Z.
So that's not it.
I know right where he is.
He's safe and sound, waitingfor Tresa Mason.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
What were these other mothers like when he was Nifter
?
Was it from their end like I'ma little bit jealous of you, you
don't have to deal with thisanymore?
Or was it they're bringing uptheir own fear and pain?
Speaker 3 (12:47):
It's such a good question.
I don't think anybody wouldvery few people, I think could
articulate to themselves thatthey might be jealous.
Right, that's probably true,and they certainly wouldn't say
it out loud.
It's very scary to say that outloud, you know, because you
don't ever wish that your childwas dead, even if sometimes you
might wish that the threatswould end, right, yeah.
(13:11):
So I think there probably issome.
I think there is a jealousy ofthe relief.
There is that.
I think there is that Becausethere is a relief You're not
worried anymore.
I don't have to carry it anymore, I don't have to worry on every
trip that I leave the house,like, will I come back and will
he be dead?
Will it be now?
Should I leave him now?
(13:31):
Should I, can I?
I scheduled a trip, but can Itake the trip?
Once I took him on a trip withme, because it was just a
visiting campus, mccarvin thenand I just introduced him.
As you know, my son's comingwith me, he's traveling, he has
the time, so here he is.
But really it was like I can'tleave him home and I have a trip
(13:53):
I have to do, so let's gotogether, we'll have fun.
But like, oh my gosh.
Yeah, so, yeah.
So I did.
Again, I did have the advantageof not knowing for sure, but
very strongly wondering andworrying if he would die by
suicide.
So I had the opportunity topre-process a lot of the grief
(14:13):
and the loss and even though Ididn't know, even though and I
was surprised in the moment that, like this is the moment I was
waiting for for so long and itdefinitely feels different than
I thought long, and itdefinitely feels different than
I thought.
And I also thought about all theparents who, like of sick
children, who say to themselvesor even sometimes that lot, I
wish I could take on your painand I wish you would be healed,
(14:33):
and like you shouldn't have thepain and I and I'll take it.
And I sort of feel like thathappened, like I didn't say that
to him, but he died and was outof pain and he transferred the
pain to us.
You know, we now have to walkwith that pain.
He doesn't have it and we doforever it's ours and the whole
family split it up a little bitand I have a different pain than
(14:54):
my husband has, than each ofhis siblings have, but
everybody's carrying a piece ofthe pain that he was able to
shed at his death and weinherited it, and we inherited
it and we did what.
And we inherited it.
Oh, we inherited it, yeah, yeah.
So, and it manifestsdifferently, in different ways
in each one of us and over thecourse of time.
(15:15):
It's 11 years already, so it'sdifferent now than it was in the
beginning, but one of thethings that seems to actually, I
think it's resolving a littlebit now finally at 11 years, but
for sure for the first five,six, seven, eight, nine years,
sleep disturbance is one of thethings that parents of deceased
children experience regularly,Like just their sleep is ruined
(15:37):
and it's hard to know.
Is that because I was a grievingmother?
Not that I thought about it allday long, but just the sleep
was bouncy and difficult and notrestful and like I was, like I
didn't look.
I never anyway looked forwardto going to sleep because I look
, I love waking up and startingmy day and getting going, I'm so
excited.
Sleep is like oh, you're in theway of like doing stuff.
(15:58):
So that was always frustrating.
But anyway, being a grievingmother, I have read some things
about grieving mothers and manygrief symptoms, quote unquote,
clear up in the first five years, but apparently sleep
disturbance doesn't.
That's something that lasts.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Five years isn't so long?
No, it's not.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
But I'm saying, for let's say here's a word that I
learned, for grief is griefbursts, like cloud bursts, like
you could be going along in yourlife and all of a sudden
there's a grief burst like that.
You see something, you smellsomething, you taste something,
you hear something.
You're like and the tears startto flow.
That's a grief burst, right.
And then it could happenbecause you heard a song or
whatever it is, and so there'sgrief bursts those are much less
(16:41):
intense and are much, much,much further and further between
as the years pass.
So that's, I would say that'swhat they're talking about, in a
way of symptoms clearing up.
Like you know, in the initialstages of grief, like in the
initial, like everything, allthat I felt like not that I had
experienced this ever, but I'veread about it I felt like I had
a hangover, sort of like.
Like going to the supermarketit was too loud and too bright
(17:05):
and people moved too fast andlike going down the aisles and
thinking, oh, I should buy tunafish Cause we're almost out.
Cause he loved, oh, and I don'tneed tuna fish Cause he doesn't
need tuna fish anymore.
Oh, I should buy him a Snapple.
Oh, we don't need Snapplesanymore Like that was hard, but
also like there were too manypeople there, like it was just
too much, or like Some of themeven were smiling or laughing.
(17:31):
I know, like it was just, andhow can they just go on with
their lives?
So there was that.
So there was like a sensoryoverload for the first several
months, like every time goingout with sensory overload, that
resolved.
And then, like you know,learning the laughter and
getting and enjoying life andnot feeling guilty about it.
So that also resolves.
But the sleep really stuck fora long time.
Wow, it really did.
It really did so.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Um, so let's talk about.
I'll tell you what I want totalk about.
I want to talk about number one, like the stigma of it.
I know that you, you know when,after, even after when your rev
wanted to, you know, tell you,he'll help keep, he'll help you
keep it a secret.
So I want to talk about that.
And I also want to talk about,like when we spoke a while back,
(18:10):
you gave me just such a clearlike understanding of how
suicide today is really almostalways mental illness.
You told me about the girl fromAfrica, so I found that very
like interesting.
So I guess, if we could, youknow, talk about those two
points.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
Okay, great.
So first of all, we do have astigma in the firm community and
if you look at the Maurice Lambbook on death and dying not on
death and dying, jewish laws ofdeath and mourning the chapter
in there on suicide is very sadfor the parent of a suicide
death Because it really talksabout the halachas of suicide
(18:43):
and their burial.
They're not buried withtachrichem or with a matzeva or
with kel malai, rachamim or withit.
They don't have a yard site.
They're not.
I mean, they're buried, they'renot.
None of that is afforded tothem.
And yet in the chapter it doessay but you should treat their
family with compassion.
There's no shiva even youshould treat their family with
compassion.
Okay, that's not the case today.
(19:05):
The halachic reality today isdifferent and that's for
Rabbanim to discuss and I'm nothere as in that.
But I will just say that thehalachic reality is different
today and everybody should asktheir own child.
But in general, of course, westill treat the family with
compassion.
And in general, suicide deaths,people who die by suicide are
still buried with everything.
They get a tahara, tahriyachema, everything, a matzeva, a
(19:28):
yarzeit, kel malerach, hamim,the whole shebang and a sheva
full sheva.
Why?
Because we do have a differentview in general of why people
die by suicide, or understandingof the mechanism of death or
that causes death is different,and we do understand that, not
in every case, but in many casesand most of the or that causes
death is different.
(19:48):
And we do understand that notin every case, but in many cases
and most of the cases that weexperienced today, certainly in
this country at this time thatit is mental illness that causes
that death.
Because if in this country, atthis time again, distinguished
from other parts of history,where we're not subject to
slavery, where we're not subjectto that kind of kidnapping,
where even illness can be mademore bearable by pain
(20:08):
medications and things like that, where we have enough food,
people are not starving aroundus, we have enough clothing, we
have homes, basically we're safeand secure, well-fed and
everything who wants to die inthose circumstances?
Only somebody where it's reallybroken inside them.
And that's where my muscle came,my made up story, which is a
(20:29):
true story.
It could have been true story.
You know, stories are truebecause they could have been,
they should have been, or theyor they.
They actually were.
And so here's a could be truestory, but it is a true story of
, let's just say, there's that16 year old girl in Africa who's
living in a village when themilitia comes in and kidnaps her
10 year old brother and makeshim into a soldier, pressed into
(20:52):
, given a gun and made into asoldier, and her parents are
killed in front of her and heryounger siblings are burned in
the hut along with her parents'bodies, right when she hears the
children screaming as she runs.
She's been captured but escapesbecause she knows she'll be
raped and she runs for her life.
(21:13):
And she's running and runningand running and running from
that village with nothing behindher, because her parents are
dead and her younger brotherstaken and her siblings are
killed and she has no place togo and nothing with her.
And she's running barefootthrough the briars and brambles
because she wants to live.
Because she wants to live.
She doesn't know how she'sgoing to do it, she doesn't know
where she's going to, how she'sgoing to make it happen, but
(21:34):
she knows that she wants to live.
The drive for life is so strongthat impels her to run for her
life and her life is terrible.
In that moment She'll hopefullymake something good of it.
You know, maybe she's going togrow up and be another Ayaan
Hirsi Ali, you know, who like,learns and is strong and can
change the world.
But meanwhile she just wants tolive.
(21:57):
So if the drive for life and youknow there is that girl in
Africa right now, as we speak,she exists, if her drive for
life is so strong, in thosecircumstances, somebody from our
families, safe, secure, loved,fed, cared for, educated if they
(22:19):
want to die, it's only becausesomething is so broken inside
them, so broken that we see thatas a fatal illness.
It's fatal.
It killed them.
And just like we don't blame apancreas for not working in
somebody dying of diabetes, orwe don't blame an immune system
(22:40):
for not being able to conquerthe cancer, even though we gave
it our best shot with all thechemotherapy or surgery that we
have at our avail.
But when somebody still dies ofcancer, it's not their fault,
right?
They still get to be buriedproperly.
So the same thing with suicidedeaths today.
Look, we do our very best withall the mental health
interventions that we can musterand all the medications that we
(23:00):
can find and all the schoolshifts that we can find and all
the love and care and support,therapy, et cetera, that we
could figure out.
But if they die becausesomething's so broken inside
them that we can't fix, it's nottheir fault.
So not that anybody should dothat, and anybody who's hearing
this, who's feeling suicidal,should definitely reach out for
(23:20):
help.
And anybody knows, anybody whofeels suicidal should be willing
to talk to the person about it,because I think there are
avoidable suicides, there arehumps that people could get over
and there are also chronicillnesses that they can't.
You know.
But even with a chronic illness, you can lengthen the life,
right?
I mean, I think about that withRobin Williams.
(23:45):
People say, oh, he lost thebattle.
I'm like, oh my gosh, look howmany battles he won.
I don't know who Robin?
Williams is.
Robin Williams is a famous,beloved comedian in American
society.
Famous did so many roles.
He played Aladdin in.
He played the genie in Aladdinin the Disney Aladdin.
It might be one role you'veseen him in, but he played a lot
(24:06):
of things all across the board.
But he struggled withdepression his whole life and in
the end he he died by suicideand people were devastated
because he was a very, verybeloved comedian and in general
American society really was ahard blow for like a lot of fans
and everybody felt like, oh, helost.
And I'm like, well, look whathe won.
He won decades.
He won decades of his life.
(24:33):
He made it for decades, hefought valiantly and won decades
more of life.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
He could have died in his twenties.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
He died in his sixties oh wow, so.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
So if a parent is listening to this, a parent that
lost a child by suicide, whatcould you tell them?
That they shouldn't feel guilty, that, oh, maybe it was just a
hump and they could have donemore for their child?
Speaker 3 (24:48):
You can't.
So, first of all, a parentwho's listening to this, I hope,
is a parent that believes inHashem and God.
For those of you who arelistening, who don't understand
the Hebrew, so here's atherapeutic riddle for you.
What's the difference between aJew and God?
God knows everything and a Jewknows better, right, okay?
Well, we really think we do,like we're pretty convinced we
(25:12):
do, which is why we tell God somany.
We have so many eights for God.
We have so much advice for Godin our prayers.
We're constantly telling Godwhat he should do right On
behalf of the world to make itwork, right for our kids, for
our spouses, for our schools,for our communities.
Like, we have a lot of advicefor God.
If we actually remember thatHashem does no better than us,
(25:37):
then we could trust Hashem tohave matched that soul with that
body.
I mean, he matches our ownsouls with our own bodies.
That's the first shidduch thatHashem makes is our soul with
our body, and it's a perfectmatch.
Our soul needs the body that wehave, with all of its strengths
and imperfections, in order forour soul to have its best
(25:59):
journey, because everybody onlyhas a journey.
We're all going to die in theend.
There's always a beginning andan end, and the middle is how do
we use our body and theenvironment that we're in to
achieve the best soul growthwhile we're here?
That's the whole thing right.
So we have to trust that forourselves.
We have to trust that for ourchild too.
Hashem, put that body and thatsoul together and then put that
combination of body and soulinto our family to be that
(26:21):
sibling of those kids and mychild.
I was the right parent for them.
My spouse is the right parentfor them.
They're the right child for me.
This was the right environment.
We had the right tools that areavailable.
We didn't have all the money tohire all the things.
We had the money we needed forthis child at this time.
We didn't have all thetherapists available.
(26:43):
We had the therapists that weresupposed to be the ones that
were for this child at this time.
I mean, just think aboutsomebody who, in the 1960s, when
they get breast cancer, it wasa death sentence.
We didn't even say the wordcancer in the 60s right.
I mean, I do, but a lot ofpeople still don't why?
Because they're so scared of it.
It's going to kill you, sodon't even say the word, don't
(27:03):
give it any energy by evenmentioning the name, whereas
today it's not a death sentence.
You find out you have cancer.
You're like okay, so what do Ihave to do now?
I might need surgery.
Oh, I might need medicine.
Oh, my hair might fall out, soI have to buy a new wig, okay,
okay, like.
That's not pleasant, it's not.
But you're not thinking you'regonna die.
You're thinking I'm gonna havea hard time for a couple of
(27:24):
years, right so, but that's onlytoday, in the 1960, 1960s.
If they died from that, youdon't look back and say they
should have been born in the 60s, they would have lived.
No, that's not the hashkacha.
They were born in the 60s for areason they were supposed to
die that way.
And there's gonna be new thingsthat help, like right now
(27:44):
there's deep brain stimulationthat's going on to help
medication, resistantdepressions.
But that wasn't available forDonnie at the time I did.
I contacted some people whowere in charge of some of those
clinical trials and I was toldit's not for people who are
actively suicidal.
I'm like really, because whyTry it If he's going to die from
that?
Like better than this, likereally.
(28:05):
But I had to remind myselfafterwards, as that was advanced
after his death, that like itwasn't the hashgacha that he
should have, that availability.
It wasn't.
It wasn't designed for him.
He was born at the time he wasborn and died at the time that
he died and that was thehashgacha.
He had the right parents andthe right money and the right
therapists, even if they weredifficult therapists who said
(28:28):
the wrong things and did stupidthings.
But they were the right onesfor him because Hashem brought
them together.
He made the Shadokhan and heknows the right path and our
family is supposed to go throughthis and he designed it.
So it really is.
A Be'yadot of Kidruchi is one ofmy big mantras.
Like, just rest in Hashem'shands.
It's the end of Adon Olam foranybody who's not recognizing
(28:52):
those words.
But really you just rest inHashem's hands.
I'm going to place myself inHashem's hands when I'm awake
and when I'm asleep, not just mysoul in Hashem's hands,
actually my physical body too,everything about me in Hashem's
hands and with Hashem I don'thave to be scared of anything in
Hashem's hands and with Hashem,I don't have to be scared of
anything.
Adoshem li v'lo ira Sorry that,adoshem li v'lo ira I don't
(29:16):
have to be scared of a thing andI don't have to have the
recriminations either.
You know, I don't now.
I mean it's hard and that ispart of the sleep disturbance
right after that kind of a deathis like you're oh, maybe I
should have this, maybe I shouldhave that, maybe I should have
this, maybe I should have that.
And I read a lot of books inthat time that made me wonder oh
(29:37):
, if I would have known this.
Oh, if I would have understoodthat sign, oh, if I would have
done this like, but I didn'tknow that.
Then right, and that was thehashgacha too, right, you know.
And just to really trust thatHashem gives you what you need.
Yes, you should try to stretchyourself, yes, you should try to
learn, but can you fix thewhole world?
You can't.
Can you fix your own child?
(29:58):
Actually, you can't, you can't.
All you can do is your verybest with the tools you have in
the time that you have, and thenyou have to release it.
There's no point, I mean, for me, I feel like.
There's no point in letting thattake over my life.
I have the rest of my life tolive.
It's a piece that I live with.
It's a growth.
(30:19):
It was a whole growth workshopfor the 19 years that I had him
and that got more intense atdifferent times and, having lost
him, also as part of my ongoinggrowth workshop, and creates
new connections and new insightsand new challenges and all
along the way and that's thehashgacha too Hashem set me up
for what he wants me to do inthis world and that was part of
(30:41):
it.
And all I can do is say, hashem, you gave this to me.
Please help me live with it.
Please help me do the best thatI can with whatever you gave me
.
So that's what I would say toparents who are feeling so
guilty is feel it and thenrelease it.
Feel it first to say I feelreally guilty that I didn't
mortgage my house to send mychild to that treatment program,
(31:03):
but then we'd be on the streetand we'd still have a dead child
, so I'm actually thankful Istill have my house.
You know something?
Speaker 2 (31:10):
less like I feel guilty that I gave him the car.
I should have known that he'sgoing to drive into the ocean or
whatever.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
Right, but you didn't know Right, but you didn't know
you know.
So then you can work with itLike I, I should have known.
Well, you didn't know.
So then you can say switch itto I'm so sad that I didn't know
Right.
Right Instead of I should have,because if you should have, you
would have right, becauseHashem's in charge of that.
If you should have, you wouldhave right.
That's just sadly cold turkey.
(31:38):
Hashem gives me everything thatI need.
He also makes every need that Ihave.
It's the other way to read thatsame, those same exact words I
wouldn't have a need if Hashemdidn't give me the need.
I wouldn't have a need ifHashem didn't give me the need
but also give me everything thatI need.
So if you shoulda, you woulda,but you could just feel sad.
I wish I would have known.
I wouldn't have given him thecar.
But then what you know, whoknows?
(32:02):
But I did, and he made hischoices.
I can't be responsible for hischoices, I can only be
responsible for mine.
And so now here I am, after mychild is dead.
Let me be responsible for mychoices.
Now, how will I treat my family?
How will I treat myself?
How will I build myrelationship back with Hashem
Maybe if I have a little pausein that relationship, because
(32:23):
that's very common to have a Idon't feel like talking to you
much Hashem kind of period inyour life.
And that's okay.
It's okay to have a littlepause in communication and
recognize it as a pause Just say, look, I don't really want to
talk to you right now.
Give me a very hard time and Ineed to digest this a little bit
before we have our nextconversation, and just saying I
(32:43):
don't want to talk to you rightnow shows you still have that
connection.
Yeah it does.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
It does.
So after Donnie was nifter, wasyour, did your your
grandchildren died half farapart.
Speaker 3 (32:56):
So I had a granddaughter, a twin baby, two
week old twin baby girl who diedsix months before Donnie died.
Oh wow, and then and then,actually she died in November.
Donnie died in May and then myfather in she died in November.
Daini died in May and then myfather-in-law died in October,
ereph Sukkos.
So my husband lost threegenerations in one year.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
Wow.
Should I ask him how he managedor should I ask him how he he
had a hard time managing.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
He's still in his pause with the show, but she
didn't pause at the time.
He really paused it, I wouldsay, after our grandson died
three years later and that was ayear-long battle with migrating
partial seizures of infancy,which is a terrible seizure
disorder that just basicallyspontaneous start, drug
resistant.
Even though they could give himmorphine to make him more
(33:46):
comfortable, they couldn't stopthe seizures and they just
basically had to wait until hisbrain sees out a terrible way to
die.
Take a whole year to just haveseizure after seizure, after
seizure until you brought hecan't stand it anymore and it
just expires, so, um.
So my daughter went through thatvaliantly daughter and
(34:08):
son-in-law and um, and myhusband kept with the updates
and the doctors and theeverything-law and um, and my
husband kept with the updatesand the doctors and the
everything, but at the end hewas like, really Like it's one
thing to take our son who livedand had a hard life and a good
life also.
What's another thing to takeour daughter's son, who only had
a hard life, he never had agood day, you know, and and that
was very hard on my husbandvery hard day, you know, and and
(34:31):
that was very hard on myhusband very hard.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
But what do people say?
People would say like he onlyhad a hard life.
Now he doesn't have a hard lifeanymore.
Right, like, find the comfortthat he's not suffering anymore.
Speaker 3 (34:43):
Oh, yeah, Except for then.
But if you're going to go thatway, I'll just say the darker
side is really God.
You would bring a child intothis world just to torture him
every day for a whole year.
What was that about?
Speaker 2 (34:57):
Is it harder to see your grandchild in pain or to
see your child in pain over thepain of their child?
Speaker 3 (35:03):
Right, it's very hard to see your child in pain.
I mean, I think it was harderto watch her in that pain than
to watch Donnie in his pain.
You know so, the child that welost in the pain that he
suffered with, he did suffer,but to watch our daughter suffer
with losing that child was wasa different kind of pain.
Yeah, yeah, Just, it is a verydifferent kind of pain.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
And it was interesting when so that her she
had a five-year-old and aalmost four-year-old at the time
, five-year-old and a three anda half-year-old when he died.
Speaker 3 (35:38):
So the five-year-old was there.
How old was the baby when heended up?
The baby was one year oldexactly Wow when he died.
And then she had a five and athree and a half above him when
the Chavar, kadisha, came to thehouse to take away the baby.
So I took the five-year-old.
The three and a half year oldwasn't there, but the
five-year-old was in the room.
So I just said come with meinto the basement, like we'll
sit on chair.
I didn't want her to see themlike pick him up out of his crib
(36:01):
and take him away.
So I held her on my lap and wejust talked.
You know what's happeningupstairs and why are they doing
it and what's going to be nextand what's that can be like
makes me tear up a little bitjust to think about.
But she said I'm really mad ata shem at five, at five.
She said that.
She said I'm really mad at ashem wow, that he died.
I said talk to your grandfatherabout that.
(36:24):
He is so did they?
I don't know if they talkedabout that and they might still,
but I'll tell you this.
I think this is something tothink about in terms of whether
it's relief from grief or thecontinuing pathway from grief.
But here's a thought that I had.
So that same granddaughter lastyear she was 12, or maybe just
(36:48):
almost 12 when her othergrandfather died of cancer and
she wasn't sure does she want togo to the funeral or not go to
the funeral?
She's like old enough that shecould, but young enough that
she's not sure if she, you know,like what should she do?
So she ended up coming to thecemetery and then she, when she
saw the open grave before theAron got there, she was like I
(37:10):
don't know if I want to do this.
So she went and sat in the car.
So I, but I talked to her causeit was a little while and you
know in that space and I talkedto her about the river of grief,
which is something I made up,um, but I liked the idea.
So I said you know, there's ariver of grief that runs through
your life.
It starts when you're born,when you disconnect from
(37:36):
Shemayim and you're born intothis world.
There's a sense of loss and youcry when you come into the
world.
Oh, my gosh, I have to be inthis world.
But I was in the zone ofKedusha and Tahara and I have to
come into this world of likephysicality.
How hard is that?
I'm grieving the loss of that.
And I said and then there's ariver of grief.
That's sometime in thebackground and sometimes in the
foreground of your life, butit's always there.
So when you lost your babybrother, you were swimming in
(37:57):
the river of grief.
Remember we sat there in thatchair and we talked about it a
little bit.
You were taking a swim in theriver of grief.
And then when your friend losestheir grandparent so you're not
grieving then, but you might besitting on the edge of your
river of grief and just danglingyour toes and feeling their
sorrow but it touches your river.
(38:17):
And right now you're on theedge of your river of grief with
this loss of your grandfatherand you're not quite sure how to
process it.
It wasn't the closestrelationship, but it touches
your river of grief.
That's what's happening for you.
That's why you're having thesemixed feelings.
It's like what do I do?
Do I sit on the edge?
Do I take a swim?
(38:37):
Do I wade in?
Like where should I be in thisriver of grief?
And how is it touching me?
Do I want to stand there?
Do I want to stand here, likeit's, but it's.
What you're feeling is the angstof coming into relationship
with your river of grief, whichwill be there for you always in
your life.
It never goes away.
You just come closer or furtherfrom it.
Sometimes you forget that it'srunning in the background and
(39:00):
sometimes you come in verystrong relationship with it,
like when you lose somebody youreally love.
Sometimes even a pet, you know,can bring you to your river of
grief in a different way.
So so I like the idea that Icame up with just to talk to her
about that.
We have, we all have our riverof grief, and sometimes somebody
else's loss brings us to aplace where we could consider a
(39:22):
loss that we hadn't consideredbefore.
You know something that like,let's say, a five-year-old loses
a grandparent, so they didn'treally have a loving connection
with them yet.
Maybe, maybe they were distantgrandparent.
But at 15, when their friendloses a grandparent, that's when
they realize, oh my gosh, notonly did I lose a grandparent,
but I didn't have them for thelast 10 years.
Look, my friend who's 15, gotto go on trips with their
(39:45):
grandparent.
I lost that Right, and so Ihave to revisit that.
Like I lost that, and so I haveto revisit that, like I lost
that potential.
I didn't understand it at fivebut I understand it now at 15.
So whatever it is that, and youfeel it again when you're 65
and you realize I don't reallyknow how to be a grandparent
like that, because I lost minewhen I was five, so I lost the
(40:05):
example.
So that's part of the river ofgrief and we revisit it at
different times in differentways throughout our life when we
understand different pieces oflosses that we're dealing with.
And it's all part of that riverof grief that courses through
our life, that everyone has soyou can't leave it behind, but
you can come into differentrelationships with it over over
(40:26):
time so do you and your twodaughters.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
They do you like connect that you each lost a
child or each loss was sodifferent.
Speaker 3 (40:35):
Yeah, each loss is very different but we do connect
.
I mean, I lit a candle forDonnie for 19 years and three
months, so I still do Fridaynights you know he's part of my
candle lighting and then both ofthem had to figure out should
they?
Shouldn't?
They Do they keep lighting acandle for that child.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
You mean regular, like by L'Chpenshaw?
Yeah, why wouldn't they?
Speaker 3 (40:58):
Right.
So the why wouldn't they?
So why wouldn't they for aone-year-old?
Is one thing, why wouldn't theyfor a two-week-old?
Is another thing, right thing.
Why wouldn't they for a twoweek old?
Is another thing, right?
How much mothership do you getto own over a stillbirth or over
a child who's born sick andwill likely die, but you hope
(41:20):
won't, but then does.
Do you get to claim them asyour child or not?
Do other people say yes, oh,but they were only two weeks.
Yeah, but they're only twoweeks, but there were nine
months of hope.
But there were actually fouryears of dreams and then nine
months of hope and then twoweeks of life.
Like, how much do you get toown that?
So I think that that is its ownjourney, also in coming into
(41:42):
relationship with how much areyou the mother of that child,
you know.
And then, how much do you wantto say that out loud when people
come to your house and see yourcandles and say why do you
light six candles when you onlyhave three children?
Right, or whatever it is?
Speaker 2 (41:57):
So then you have to explain it again like, okay,
having a stillborn is verypainful and very huge and malky.
You know clerson felton kind offiam has, it's very like real.
But still the difference isfrom the people that I spoke to,
(42:18):
from having a stillborn even ifit's in your ninth month, it's
a baby that lived three secondsis world apart.
Yeah, like once the baby letout that cry or took oxygen in,
it's just it was a real livingthing, even if it lived for five
seconds.
And that's why when you'retalking about a two week old,
I'm like two weeks is two weeks.
Speaker 3 (42:35):
Two weeks is two weeks and two weeks is a lot.
One of the things that washelpful for me in understanding
the purpose of a two week lifeof illness or the purpose of a
one year life of suffering, is Isee them as chesed pullers.
They pull chesed from others.
That could be their purpose Ifolam chesed yibaneh, if this
(42:57):
world is built on chesed and weneed chesed in a way, as the
fuel to keep the world going.
So some people's job is tocreate opportunities for chesed
to be that darling little babythat needs chesed, or the baby
in the family where the familyneeds the chesed, needs the
meals, needs the rides, needsthe love, needs the hugs, needs
the tzedakah, whatever it isthat they could be somebody who
(43:22):
brings chesed into the worldthrough their needs.
So I feel like both of thosebabies were chesed pullers and
they pulled chesed out of somany people really in remarkable
ways.
Who knows, you know, were theyborn to suffer?
I don't think so.
Did they need to suffer inorder to do what they needed to
do in this world?
Clearly they did Right.
(43:42):
So, but that is where I dotrust Hashem to know that he
knows the exact cheshbon.
He's not torturing somebody'sstomach, no, you know, he knew
the exact khezben for why thatchild had to come in, what they
had to experience, what theparents had to experience, what
the grandparents had toexperience and what the friends
of the parents had to experience.
(44:03):
You know, each one in its outerrings, some with just a sigh oh
my gosh, did you hear theso-and-sos had a baby.
That's sick, oh that's sick, oh, that's so sad.
Even that tiny bit of suffering, that's all.
That's the whole comment andthat's all the suffering that
person got in their life, threefriendship rings away from the
center.
Okay, they were supposed toexperience that little bit, you
know, whatever it was, so it'snot for nothing.
Whatever Hashem does, it's allcalculated carefully and for me,
(44:28):
I trust in that very deeply,and that makes the whole thing
not have to always make sense,because it always does make
sense, if you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
How often do you have to rework that trust?
Or it's like so strong that itnever diminishes?
Speaker 3 (44:44):
I would say that I've worked at so many times Like I
worked at so many times duringDonnie's life that it really
stood there very clearly for meat Donnie's death.
And then I worked at many moretimes, you know, as Donnie, like
in those first few months ofreally just dealing with the I
trust you Hashem, but this is sohard.
I regularly would say, lookjust to remind myself, not that
(45:07):
I didn't believe it, but just Iwould say like Hashem, hashem,
kel, rachum vachanon, and Iwould just stop there, like it's
the Yiddish, but I just saythose first four like you're, so
like I have to put all thisinto the package of I don't know
, like that's your definition,hashem is that you're, and
(45:30):
somehow this experience fitsinto that.
I trust that.
And so I just said it a lot,just like walking down the
street, like rachum vachanen,hashem is rachum vachanen.
So I, that was part of like itwas part of a walking meditation
, of reminding myself andreadjusting and realigning on a
regular basis.
And then I, just I, I regularlyone of the things I did was like
(45:51):
when I would feel like Donnie'sneshama heavy or the grief
heavy, I mean it's just like seehis neshama, kind of like a
little dove in my hands and Iwould like just hold it and then
, like like a dove, cast it upto Hashem and just say here,
hashem, please catch Donnie'sneshama.
Like that's what you wanted,but like take his neshama and
love it Like it's it's by younow, not by me.
(46:13):
You entrusted his neshama intomy care for those 19 years and
then really for the first 13years and then, like you know,
he's in charge after that, butstill he was in under my roof.
Like I had 19 years of caringfor this neshama and now it's
your job, hashem.
Like my job is over and yourjob isn't.
Fortunately, you could do a lotof jobs all at the same time.
Speaker 2 (46:35):
I like the visual of the dove.
I always imagine I don't knowlike a box or balloons or
something like that.
But it doesn't have to be onlythe neshama.
It could be like my pain righthere.
Speaker 3 (46:45):
Just for me I'm in too much pain today, or whatever
it is Right Just to cast it up,like let it fly up, cast it up
and give it back to Hashem, yeah, yeah, so I did that a lot and
I think I think all thatstrengthened it.
That's the answer to thatquestion.
Like it, it was strong before,but it's like definitely woven
tighter into the fabric of mypersonality and spiritual
(47:06):
clarity.
Right, all those exercises.
Speaker 2 (47:08):
Right Life, you know, makes you always.
I don't know how do you say re,weave it into the fabric?
It can be so tight, but youconstantly have to be weaving it
more and tighter and adifferent color and a different
direction and a different Idon't know what.
Speaker 3 (47:25):
Right right.
So let's just go back to thesecret thing for a second,
because the stigma we want totalk about that like the stigma
in our community.
So I think if we keep it secret, first of all that keeps us
separate from our community.
It will perpetuate our ownparental sense of shame, because
you keep secrets because of theshame.
But then it also not only doesit perpetuate your own sense of
(47:47):
shame but also then keeps you ina bubble, distant from your
community, because you can't behonest.
You have to actually lie tokeep it a secret.
Right, oh, it was a caraccident.
Oh, it was a heart thing.
Oh, it was a heart thing.
Oh, it was a whatever thing,right?
So you're lying.
Who knows how that works withthe mitvashak or tirhak thing
that we also have.
But let's just separate that.
The point that I want to get tois you can't have emotional
(48:10):
intimacy with lies.
Lies prevent intimacy.
So if you want to havefriend-timacy, even intimate
friendships or even just cleansocial discourse with community
members, if a lie is mixed intothat or if you can't be seen for
who you actually are, then youcan never feel valued for who
(48:32):
you are.
If you're projecting somethingthat's not you or projecting a
death story that's not yourfamily's death story.
So then you know people onlyare accepting your story and not
you, because you've never letthem see you or what happened.
I advocate for honesty here,even though it's really
difficult and even though peoplemight look askance.
But I feel like if we can standstrong in our vulnerability and
(48:54):
say I did the best I could, andeven if right away you feel
like I did the best I could, andeven if right away you feel
like I did the best I could butI failed, or I'm not even sure
if I did the best I could andI'm so sad that my child is dead
, but if you can stand in thatsorrow and even in that sense of
failure and let your communitymembers hopefully embrace you in
that, even though people willsay stupid things like whatever
(49:15):
it is like you have more kids oryou did you.
There's all kinds of stupidthings that people can say, but
still, on the other side of allof that, in a year or two, the
honesty creates honestrelationships, which helps you
feel actually properly supportedand then also leads to others
being able to be honest and beproperly supported before and
(49:36):
after a death.
So what if somebody just has amentally ill child who's not
headed towards death, hopefully,but is mentally ill?
If there could be the honestyof like I am struggling with
this, it's so hard Like ifsomebody had cancer.
I thought about that,struggling with Donnie and his
mental illness.
If my kid would have cancer andhad to go to the hospital,
people would make meals for usand ask how he's doing and daven
(49:57):
for him, but not with amentally ill child.
They just look at you and saywhat kind of a parent are you
that you let your child be likethat?
You know it was all thisjudgment, so much judgment.
Why is he dressed like that?
Why does he do that?
All that judgment?
I mean I remember once going toa bar mitzvah of Down syndrome
child.
I have a grandson with Downsyndrome but this was before he
(50:17):
was old enough to be barmitzvahed and this child was
able to have bar mitzvah and hemade a bracha for his aliyah.
That you could only understandif you understood how he spoke.
It was not like somebody else,hearing a recording of that,
wouldn't know what he said, butthere was a news station there
and so many guests there and itwas videoed and shared and
(50:39):
everybody's so proud of him thathe made it to that day.
And I was thinking, when mymentally ill child makes it to
bar mitzvah and makes a bracha,everybody's going to say why
didn't he make a seum?
Nobody's going to say, wow,that's amazing, you kept him
alive to this day.
He was able to make a bracha.
That's amazing.
Nobody's going to film it,nobody's going to broadcast it,
(51:01):
Nobody's going to congratulateme.
They're just going to saywhere's his seum?
How come you didn't do that too?
Or at least that's how I felt.
So that if we could be morehonest and I wasn't sharing at
that time and most people can't,but still, the point is at this
point, more mature, more triedand more mature I can't advocate
(51:25):
for that honesty because Ithink that will strengthen our
community and help us carrythose.
We're really carrying somethingso hard that we could be the
neighbor who at least gives ahug or says how's your son doing
?
You know, and when somebodycan't say Baruch Hashem, they
could say Gamz L'tova.
I can't say Baruch Hashem onhow he's doing, but I could say
Gamzul L'tova.
I know Hashem is only doingwhat's good in the world,
whatever that is.
I trust him on that.
Speaker 2 (51:45):
So I think that, for someone listening to this, I
think one of the things that Iwould want a appearance to take
away is to not be ashamed of it,to be able to really open up
about it and to not take theblame for it, right.
Speaker 3 (52:01):
Yeah, I think that's really important is that there's
there's not blame, just likethere's not blame with diabetes
or asthma, you know, okay Withasthma.
So if you say, why do you havea cat when your child is
asthmatic?
So then you might say, get ridof the cat, your child's having
asthma problems all the time,right?
So, but you do your best.
What are you doing with yourmentally ill child?
(52:21):
So, okay, get rid of thedifficult teacher or the school
situation.
That's not working right orwhatever.
It is Okay, you do your best,but you can only do what you can
do.
And then there's no blame afterthat.
There's not, there's justcompassion, and I think that's
one of the things we have toremember all the time.
It's like Hashem we're createdin the image of God, created in
the image of Hashem, and Hashemis rachum v'chanun.
(52:43):
When we talk about the yudgimel midos of, it's never yud
gimel midos of ka'as, it's neverof anger, it's never.
It's never.
13 attributes of anger, 13attributes of condescension, 13
attributes of whatever it is.
It's 13 attributes of rachamim.
That's how we know Hashem 13different flavors of rachamim
(53:09):
and we're supposed to live thatin this world.
13 different ways.
Speaker 2 (53:13):
What if a parent would say to 13 different ways
of rachamim and Hashem couldn'tfind in those 13 attributes
enough rachamim that my childshould be okay?
I must be a really bad person.
Speaker 3 (53:24):
Right.
So that's where you have tounderstand that Hashem knows.
That's where that therapeuticjoke comes in, right?
Because that's where you'resecond guessing Hashem.
That's the point of that joke.
It's the point of it and that'swhy it's therapeutic.
That's where you can ask theperson just privately what's the
difference between Hashem and aJew?
Hashem knows everything and aJew knows better, right, hashem
(53:45):
does know better.
Somehow this fits into that,but I don't know how yet and
maybe I won't know while I'mstill alive.
But in the end we say in SheremAles and Shabbos, azim Ales,
chokpinu.
Then in those days our mouthswill be filled with laughter
(54:06):
because we're going to get it atsome point, but not now.
If we don't see it now, all wehave to do, all we can do, is
trust that Hashem actually hasit stronger than we think.
And you know, sometimes I feellike you might look at Hashem
and say I don't know what you'rethinking, hashem, but I know
you are thinking.
I know you are.
Speaker 2 (54:26):
Right, okay, well, thank you so so much for coming
on.
Speaker 3 (54:33):
Anything like that we forgot to say.
That's important.
Before we end, I would say thisOkay, one more important piece.
I would say this okay, one moreimportant piece.
Like if you are dealing with achild who's mentally ill or
suicidal, or you have this likeheavy thing that you're carrying
, there's no blame for you, butthere's also no blame for your
spouse, and I think that'sreally important to know that.
Like turn towards each other, tobe a team in carrying it is so
(54:54):
important, even if you carry itin different ways you don't have
to both do the same things orthink the same things but at
least to be on a team before,during and after.
Like just make the choice toturn towards each other again
and again and again and be ateam in handling it.
So important that your marriageshouldn't break up over this,
(55:14):
because it's very trying, very,very trying, and you can make a
proactive choice.
We will grow through this as wego through this, but we'll make
the choice to grow through thisand grow our marriage.
Even during the hard times,like we're going to stick
together and be a team.
So that's what I would want aparent to also take away.
Speaker 2 (55:34):
Develop your team.
Does a spouse develop that teamif the other spouse doesn't
want, like doesn't agree withanything that the spouse is
saying?
Speaker 3 (55:43):
They might need to be in denial or have some distance
, like in our case.
It was easier for me to haveall those conversations with
Donnie and my husband wasn'table to.
It was too hard for him, but itdidn't mean that he disagreed
with having them.
It did mean sometimes we didn'ttalk about all the things
because it was too much for oneto handle or the other.
Okay, so I took on a differentrole than he took on, but I
(56:07):
think that's part of it is torespect the other's needs and
capacity and gifts in the wholething.
And sometimes you fill in.
You know, sometimes like let'sjust say, I mean everybody could
, even though it's not always,but most often the wife that
cleans the kitchen, motsiShabbos or whatever but if she
(56:27):
has the flu, he's not going tojust let the kitchen look like
that till Wednesday.
When she feels better and canget out of bed, he'll clean the
kitchen or he'll get the teenagedaughters to help or the
teenage sons to help or figureout a way so the kitchen doesn't
look like that for days anddays.
Right, you pitch in when theother one can't and you just
have to know.
It's with kitchen work, it'swith homework, it's with income,
(56:48):
it's with whatever it is, it'swith rides for kids, it's with
handling the challenges in life.
You pitch in how you can, and alittle beyond how you can, when
the other one can't, becausewe're a team.
So you just want to developyour team sense and pitch in as
much as you can.
Speaker 2 (57:05):
Okay, well, okay, so much, and it should be for Nalia
, for Donnie's Neshama.
Speaker 1 (57:13):
You've just listened to an episode of the Relief from
Grief podcast with MiriamRiviat, brought to you by Mayrim
.
For more episodes, visit theMayrim website at wwwmayrimorg.
Help us reach more people whomight benefit from this podcast.
If you know someone who couldfind it helpful, please share it
with them.
If you have questions orcomments for the speaker, or if
(57:36):
you'd like to suggest a guestfor the podcast, we'd love to
hear from you.
Email us at relieffromgrief atmayrimorg.
We look forward to having youjoin us in the next episode.
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