January 1, 2025 • 50 mins
Hear the heartfelt reflections of Mrs. Devorie Kreiman, a mother whose story is both heart-wrenching and inspiring. Mrs. Kreiman shares her profound experiences of loss and resilience as she navigates the challenges of living with the knowledge of a rare mitochondrial disorder affecting her family. Through unimaginable grief and the joy of raising healthy children, she offers insights into the balance between personal choices and divine will, shedding light on the spiritual journey that accompanies such trials.
Our discussion takes a deep dive into the complex emotions tied to parental grief and the societal pressures surrounding mourning. Mrs. Kreiman opens up about the struggle to reconcile appearances with internal turmoil, revealing how societal expectations often clash with the rawness of personal loss. Her candid sharing of personal stories and interactions with others who have faced similar tragedies highlights the deeply personal and evolving nature of grief, emphasizing the need for community support and the transformative power of accepting life's challenges.
The conversation rounds off with a focus on healing and spiritual growth, where Mrs. Kreiman reflects on the importance of embracing support systems, such as therapy or medication, and the strength found in seeking help. She discusses the metaphor of "Lech Lecha" from the Torah, encouraging listeners to trust their unique paths and harness the power of resilience through everyday decisions. This episode is a testament to the potential for spiritual and personal growth, reminding us of the profound lessons in nurturing and acceptance that can emerge from adversity.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the Relief from Grief podcast, hosted by
Mrs Miriam Rebiet and brought toyou by Mayrim.
Mayrim is an organizationdedicated to supporting families
who have experienced the lossof a child.
It was founded by IloyNishmat's, nechama Liba and
Miriam Holman.
Despite her illness, miriamdevoted herself to addressing
(00:22):
the needs of parents andsiblings grappling with the
immense pain of losing a child.
She felt this loss deeply,having experienced it firsthand
when her older sister, nechamaLiba, passed away.
Mehrim continues to uplift andexpand on the work Miriam began,
a mission carried forward byher parents with great
dedication.
(00:43):
If you have any questions orcomments for the speaker, or if
you'd like to suggest a guestfor the podcast, please email us
at relieffromgrief at mayrimorg.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Hi everybody.
Thank you so much for joiningme here at the Relief from Grief
with Mayrim podcast Today.
Mrs Devayi Kriman is on and sheis the author of the book, even
If I'm Not, and she is a prettywell-known speaker and she
gives workshops and thank you somuch for coming on, it's a
pleasure.
I guess we could start off alittle bit with your story,
(01:16):
right, what you have to do withgrief, unfortunately, so here it
is in short, because it'sreally been out there a lot.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
So my husband and I were married 38 years and we had
three healthy kids in threeyears.
And then our fourth child wasborn.
He looked perfectly normal buthe was very weak and the doctors
had never seen anything like itbecause he appeared so normal
but he just didn't have anystrength and in the end they
diagnosed him with failure tothrive, which doesn't mean much
except he's not doing what he'ssupposed to be doing.
(01:43):
And we tried different, theytried so many different
treatments but nobody reallyknew what they were dealing with
.
And after a few months he justgot weaker and weaker and he
died.
And we thought, okay, it's thissad tragedy that happened in
our lives.
Sometimes babies are not viableand we're going to go on with
our family.
And the doctor said you know,you can have all the kids, it
shouldn't be anything.
So we had another baby.
(02:03):
We actually named her NechamaMiriam.
Nechama for comfort for thebaby that died, and Miriam
because my grandmother had beenMiriam.
Later we realized NechamaMiriam means bitter comfort, but
we didn't know that until wedidn't realize that and
everybody was so excited andmazel tov and I'm holding my
Nechama Miriam, and she has aseizure in my arms.
And our first baby one of thesymptoms that he had had it's a
(02:24):
neuromuscular disease that hehad.
We didn't know it yet but itwas seizures and I knew what it
was.
And right away she washospitalized and we realized
that this is not a one-timefailure to thrive situation.
We have a hereditary issuegoing on, but they still didn't
know exactly.
Very long story we got a brachafrom the Lubavitcher Rebbe for a
healthy baby.
Nechamim, baby Nacham andMariam was sick for a few months
(02:47):
.
They tried.
They tried couldn't help her.
We had a healthy baby inbetween.
We named her Bracha Brachalea,baruch Hashem, healthy and well.
She's a mom now too, and so wehad the three healthy ones from
before and then our Brachalea,and by then we were learning
more about the disorder.
We realized that our babies havea mitochondrial disorder.
They're unable to produceenergy.
But the odds were still good.
We had four healthy kids.
We spoke to a lot of doctors.
(03:08):
The research was prettyextensive.
We even sent samplesinternational just trying to
figure out what happens to ourfamily now.
In the end we had two morechildren.
Both of them were sick.
We came pretty far in theresearch, but not far enough for
a cure.
And we knew we also came farenough to know that our four
healthy children are completelyhealthy, because sometimes with
mitochondrial disorders it canpresent differently.
But we had four healthychildren and then we knew that
(03:29):
the four that were sick, we hada risk with every pregnancy for
that to happen 25% risk, whichdoesn't seem high because it's
75% odds for a healthy child and25% chance for a sick child.
It's basically a mutation whichmy husband and I share very
rare, and so in every pregnancythere's a one in four that both
of us will give the mutated gene.
But because every time we had asick child it was so traumatic
(03:52):
on the family.
The child that was born was not24% sick, it was either a
hundred percent sick or healthy.
We couldn't do it anymore and Iwas in my early thirties and we
knew we wouldn't have any morechildren.
And yeah, and that was a biggiefor me, um, because my last two
babies had been sick and I wasjust yearning in my mind if
somebody has a baby, everythingin their life is perfect, you
know, just being able to havebabies and I had children, but I
(04:12):
was just yearning for that onemore.
I guess greedy, because I hadhad a healthy baby after.
But my last two were sick and I, just I was convinced all I
needed in life just that onething let me be able to have one
more, you know we always wantthat last baby.
So that was a lot of work for me.
Honestly it was.
It was very difficult and myhusband and I were really
determined we're not going to bethis Nebuch family.
Even when the kids were sick, Imean, we went through 10 years
(04:34):
of a lot of working with thehospital when the babies were
alive and even after they died,with all the research.
We were very involved in it.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
I didn't want to be.
You know that.
Never family.
Look at her.
You know such sick children, orhalf our kids died because we
had four healthy kids.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
So did your babies come home or they were in the
hospital the whole time?
They were in the hospital.
They were too sick to come homebecause they kept getting
sicker and sicker.
There was one of them.
We had much better care by ourthird baby because the research
had taken us further and weended up in a children's
hospital.
She was transferred.
She was the only baby that wasactually moved and she did
better because we dealt withspecialists there and we came so
much further and at one pointwe prepared to bring her home
and they have this step downunit first with.
(05:14):
Babies have to be so they canstabilize Even at home.
It would have been a verycontrolled environment.
She would have needed full-timecare.
They want life support, not inthe beginning, but as they
deteriorate In the beginning,not In the beginning.
They're presented normally,which is why they missed it.
We had two girls, two boys.
The boys were more sick rightaway.
The girls presented a littlebetter in the beginning and then
struggled.
(05:34):
They just had a little bit ofstronger genetic material.
I'm not sure exactly why, butthey did a little better.
They also lived a little longer, but as they got sicker.
They needed more and moresupport.
But with one of them we camevery close.
She made it, we finally.
It was a very big deal.
I can't even describe to youthe amount of bureaucracy and
(05:55):
how many people we dealt with.
But we were trying to bring herhome and we finally arranged
for a cure center, like a, youknow, as a stepping stone.
If she could be stabilizedthere then we could bring her
home.
The point was to keep herstable.
They were already at that pointnot even looking for a cure,
they were just looking for howto manage care.
That's how severe it was atthat point.
When she was born I had nursedher like she, but they
deteriorated.
(06:15):
It's kind of like pay sex, butit goes much quicker.
At that point she was reallyjust going to get care.
So they we finally got hertransferred to the center after
so much work.
She made it there one day andthen she crashed and was back in
the hospital and that was that.
So they never made it home, butthat was as close as we got.
I was able to hold them andthey grew.
(06:35):
They didn't look like sickchildren, except for a lot of
hospitalization will causecertain things and there'll be
certain reactions to medications, so there was swelling and the
intubation will bring a certainlook.
So they had that, but theylooked like perfectly normal
babies, beautiful babies, youknow.
Their hair grew and theirbodies grew and they were sweet
and pretty.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
Very, very sick.
So after that we had the fourhealthy kids and I thought, okay
, that's it.
I did my big thing.
I lost half my kids but we'restill this happy, functional
family and we were we reallywere For the most part always
like.
Yom Tov was always very nice inour house, if anything.
I went to the other extreme.
I really made an effort andthen, quite a few years later,
(07:16):
our son, our 23-year-old son,Yossi.
He was a chasen and he went tocamp Chabad all over the world.
He was in Costa Rica and he wasa learning counselor.
He was very much of a learnedkind of really nerdy kind of kid
and they took the kids on trips.
So they took him.
He went scuba diving with thecampers and fell in love with
the nature and wanted tocontinue.
Meanwhile he came home, he gotengaged and he was going for a
(07:37):
certification.
Something went wrong with theequipment and Yossi drowned.
So the book was really writtenafter Yossi died.
It's a story of loss after lossand coming back, like how do I
relate to other people whohaven't lost most of their kids
and how do I have an authenticconnection with Hashem when I
felt so kicked to the side andhow do I find my own strength?
(07:59):
How do I still feel likeYossi's mother and function
without being a raving lunatic?
Speaker 2 (08:05):
So you wanted to be Yossi's mother and function
without being, you know, ravinglunatic.
So that's so.
You wanted to be Yossi's mother.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
That feeling of I need to be Yossi's mother was
more than by your babies thebabies because I never got to
know them individually as people.
They were very tiny when theywere responsive and then within
weeks they were slipping away.
Somebody would have traded babywith me.
I would have taken another babyTo me.
It was just I wanted that hold.
I actually did.
I have a friend who has twochildren with severe special
(08:32):
needs and one of them was in thehospital at the same time as my
baby.
Hospitals across the street andwe actually became very close
and her baby went home and shewas very overwhelmed.
My baby was still in thehospital and I ended up taking
her baby to my house.
A lot.
I would take him for ShabbatSim.
This is a baby that came with afeeding tube and with heart
issues, but we would take himhome.
He was a delicious.
I mean, she trusted us and itwas just very good for both of
(08:56):
us.
It was a friendship forgedreally in the trenches.
I know you wrote in the bookabout-.
Yossi was different.
Yossi was 23.
He was 23.
And Yossi and I were close, soit was a different kind of a
loss than the babies.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
I know I have a son that loves scuba diving.
I think maybe he got past thatpoint now, but he's Good, you
know, and every time he goes I'mlike, but there's someone that
died from it.
You can say that so many thingsI know, and it's really a safe
activity.
And no, I mean, what happenedto your son was very like, not
typical, wasn't it?
I don't even know.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Is it safe?
Is it not safe?
I don't know, I'm not an experton it, but what happened to him
was a quip and malfunction andit can happen.
I mean it is an extreme sport,but at that moment you know he
gets to make his own decisionand there was a lot of that.
But the truth is I have toaccept that at that moment I had
(09:47):
that knowledge and that was thebest I could do then.
But the babies too afterwards Iwas beating myself up.
I knew by the last two babiesalready we were taking a risk.
The first two we didn't know,but the last two, by the fourth
(10:08):
one, we knew and we knew itwould be the last baby one way
or the other.
And later I was beating myselfup like why did I have more
children?
I knew there's a risk, whydidn't I just stop?
But it's easy for the calm,reasoned 57-year-old now to say
you know why did you do that?
But I was very young.
And there's Ratzon.
You know Hashem's desire thatframes itself in our actions.
We have to accept that thepeople we were then made the
best decisions that we couldthen and we're not in charge.
Part of the way that wefunction in this world is that
(10:30):
we do the best we can at thattime and from there, if we made
a mistake or if somethingterrible happened, we build up.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
I guess that's learning to accept that that was
rest on Hashem.
Really, I mean Hashem made usmake that decision.
Be that age, have that mindset,because thisatzon Hashem really
I mean Hashem made us make thatdecision.
Be that age, have that mindset,because this is what Hashem
wants to happen.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
You know, I hounded the Rabbanim after the babies,
then again after Yossi.
I wanted to know was it ourfault?
Could we have prevented it?
How much control do we have?
And I did some learning.
And one of the things I learnedhow does it work with the
ratzen of Hashem?
If I do something dangerous andsomething bad happens, can I
say, well, it was Hashem's willall along?
(11:11):
So the Lubavitcher Rebbeexplains that there's the ratzen
of Hashem.
Hashem has a will thateverything will turn out the way
it actually turns out.
At the same time we don't hearthat will because that will is
very deep inside.
So we make decisions when arewe going to live, or what job
are we going to do?
All those decisions that wemake, those are also the will of
Hashem.
But that's the external will ofHashem.
It's more superficial things.
But when a person does something, he does something, let's say
(11:34):
wrong, and then he says, well,it was the will of Hashem,
because everything in the worldhas to be the will of Hashem.
So how does that work?
So the way it works is fromthat place where he did
something wrong and now he hasto climb up and do tshuva, or he
did something that hurt someoneelse, whatever it is that
technically looks bad.
So the way it works is it'salways the will of Hashem, but
(11:55):
we don't hear it.
The will of Hashem is in the.
There's like outer will andinner will of Hashem.
The inner will of Hashem ismore hidden from us and there's
like a suspension ofcommunication, meaning, wherever
we are, if I did somethingdangerous, if I did a sin, if I
did something wrong, from thatpoint where I now have to start
climbing up again, fixing orgrieving, whatever it is, that
(12:16):
is the will of Hashem.
But at the moment that I madethat decision, I wasn't hearing
the will of Hashem.
So I still made my choice.
And this is a complicatedconcept because we can't say
that anything in the world canhappen without Hashem.
At the same time, we can't say,well, it was Hashem's will.
So everything I did, so, evenour sins, even our mistakes, our
blunders, everything that we dowrong, the place where we end
(12:38):
up, that's Hashem's will.
That's the work of our soul tolook back, to accept.
This is where I was and here'smy journey.
Now Maybe it's 10 steps behind,where I was a year ago, but
really, once we start the work,we work ourselves up, or maybe
it's a hundred steps forward.
What do we know?
How can we measure reallyspiritual growth and emotional
growth?
But bottom line is it's reallya contradiction because nothing
(12:59):
happens without Hashem and yetwe're making choices, because
we're not hearing that well,we're making the choices with
the best emotional and spiritualand intellectual tools that we
have at the time, right, ifsomeone?
Speaker 2 (13:12):
actually does Neveira .
They decide to.
I don't know.
Speak Lashon Hara, skip Minion,eat Anim Kippur, whatever it is
.
I shouldn't say Skip Minion.
I don't know if that'sconsidered Neveira, but whatever
it is someone makes a decisionto do something.
You know an.
Whatever it is, someone makes adecision to do something you
know an obvious of error, thenyou could say that's not the
will of Hashem.
But if Hashem, but if someonemakes a choice and they think
that they're, if they think itthrough and they think they're
making the right choice and itends up being not the right
(13:33):
choice, then you could go backand say that was Hashem's will.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
They're all they're all Hashem's will, because the
way it works really is nothingcan happen in this world without
Hashem's will.
The only thing is we can't tell.
So therefore, we're stillmaking our choice.
It's like if you put in frontof a child two foods.
You know which one they'regoing to pick, but you're giving
them the choice we know.
And it's more about Hashem.
It's not just that Hashem knows, hashem orchestrates it,
because bottom line is, after wemake whatever decision, we make
(13:59):
we in a certain situation, thenwe have some fixing to do, we
have some growing to do.
Not a mistake, that's our soulwork.
It's a complex concept becausethe time isn't large, but we're
making choices because we're nothearing the Ratzan of Hashem.
We're making the choices basedon our own Do you discuss in
your workshops that you give.
In the workshops that I give, Idiscuss more.
(14:19):
I do a workshop on davening howto approach davening when it's
hard to daven and I do somepractical things and some
actually kind of sweet thingsyou know like to help us in a
davening.
And I also do some of the moreemotional layers of how do we
get to a place where we actuallybelieve that if I say these
words today, even if I said themyesterday and I say them
tomorrow, it'll make adifference today and now that
(14:39):
every single action counts.
And then I do workshops ontelling a story to ourselves,
you know, without getting in ourown way, being able to accept
the people that we were at thattime, if we were an immature 20
year old or if we were veryfrustrated 50 year old, whatever
it is to be able to say okay,that's the starting point Now,
what With honesty, withauthenticity.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
So let's go back to authenticity because because I
mean from your book, I, you know, feel like you're a very
authentic person.
When you said before aboutchange, you know you would have
loved to switch your baby for ahealthy one, whatever I mean, I
was laughing and I had to remindmyself this is not a comedy
book.
Like, don't laugh, you know.
Like when you pass by the babychanging station you're like, oh
, baby, change, I'll change mybaby yeah no-transcript that I
(16:00):
was very frozen and shellshocked.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
Sudden death is very different than illness, so it
was really.
I went through Shiva in shock,but I also went through Shiva
afraid to cry and I wrote it.
I journaled about this in whatbecame the book.
Just like, what kind of motherdoesn't cry?
But I couldn't cry and at onepoint one of my friends said to
me she said something aboutbeing sad and I said no, no, no,
I'm not sad.
I can't do sad.
Sad will break me.
(16:23):
I did angry.
I did angry really well becausethat felt empowering.
I couldn't touch sadness and Iwas afraid that if I start to
cry I won't be able to come out.
I'll touch a sadness that's sodeep because I wrote the book
about losing the babies in Yossi.
But there was a lot of otherthings.
There always is.
When you read a memoir, you'rereading a very what's the word?
Like a pretty focused smallpiece.
(16:43):
You're getting a glimpse, butit's never the whole deal and I
felt like I'd gotten bangedaround so much in life and I
would.
I would start touching thatwell of.
I don't want to saydisappointment, it's too soft.
There's just real, real deepsadness.
I wouldn't come out and I thinksometimes people have that.
So they will look okay, becauseat that moment that's how
they're functioning they'resurviving, or they're not
(17:04):
dealing, or they're just they'regood at it, you know, whatever,
however it is.
But later, after everybody wenthome and some time went by, I
was finally able to cry and ableto deal.
But, yeah, looking okay, I mean, there's a value to it that we
can function.
I also I had to, you know, takecare of my husband.
I had my daughters, so therewere certain things I just had
(17:25):
to do.
And then there was also a senseof obligation to honor Yossi.
At one point during the shiva Ididn't want to come down and I
looked a mess.
And my good friend came up andshe sat with me for a bit and
when I went down she said to meyou know, you may want to just
like straighten up a little bit.
And I'm like I didn't care.
And she said well, it honorsYossi, it's functioning when
we've lost someone and notlosing it completely as a way of
(17:48):
letting them know, also,because it's not good for their
soul when you know we just go topieces completely.
It's not in the beginning.
It doesn't mean we can't grieveor cry, but there is.
I felt it as a mom especially,I felt an obligation to honor
this process.
It was his Shiva and it was, ofcourse, I did grieve very
(18:08):
intensely.
I mean, the book it's a veryhonest book and, yeah, yeah, I
was angry and then when I wasallowed to be sad, I was very
sad.
I mean, when I allowed myselfto be sad, it was there.
But there is also an obligationto neshama.
If we're going to parent, weparent our kids in whatever form
they come, and if they areneshamas, then we just do it
that way.
(18:28):
Whatever form they come, and ifthey are Neshamahs, then we
just do it that way.
I mean, people make all kindsof accommodations that they
never thought they would makefor their children.
So my child was now at aNeshamah level and needed that
from me.
He still does.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
Were you ever afraid that if you look too okay, then
people really are going to thinkyou're okay, and you don't want
people to think that you'refine because you're not fine?
Speaker 3 (18:48):
I don't think I really look too okay.
I think I looked veryfunctional.
People were saying, well, lookat her, she's so strong, cause I
was talking a lot.
I was just telling stories.
But I think, honestly, peoplewere afraid of me because I was
afraid too of it.
I felt like I lost most of mykids.
It's kind of spooky and I thinkthe rage was very, very strong
(19:09):
at one point.
I mean, the book is reallyhonest At one point on Hanukkah
I was with my daughter andsomebody we were in the.
We were in a donut place and theguy just wanted to be nice.
It was, he was closing up.
He had extra donuts, so hewanted to give us some.
So he said to me how manychildren do you have?
Wow, I ran off.
So I think when people spoke tome for even a little while, I
(19:31):
didn't.
People were afraid.
I didn't look so okay, actuallyit was.
You know, it's constantlyevolving.
Grief is so messy and sodifferent for all of us.
I wrote in the book also that Iwent.
I was in New York and I went tosee a woman whose child had
died the same week as mine.
They died a few days apart,also a young man, also sudden
death.
He was hit by what do they callthose things over the water, I
forgot what it's called.
He was going on one of thosespeeds, whatever it was, it was
(19:52):
a water death.
He was hit jet ski, I thinkit's called right.
And he died suddenly.
And she had she had anotherchild at that point.
No, he didn't die, he died umearlier.
She had a child who was sick,who died like.
So she lost two older, two sons, also similar to the age of
yossi, and she was a widow.
Widow and I went to see herbecause I knew her, but not well
.
I knew of her and I was in NewYork and I was going through one
(20:12):
of my poor me I'm really thesaddest woman in the world, kind
of look, and I hadn't sleptwell.
So I showed up at her house inlike a long skirt, like raggedy,
like I didn't care, and I thinkI'd slept in that t-shirt, I
mean mess, and at that point Iwas crying finally.
So my eyes were puffy and Iknock on her door and I look, if
you had to describe what doesin Hebrew, what is Meshachela?
(20:33):
What does a bereaved mom looklike?
There's me, big Nebuch.
I knock on the door and we lostkids the same week.
She opens the door and she looksgorgeous.
I mean, she's just full makeupand she's dressed gorgeous and
I'm just like staring at her andwe talked a lot and one of the
things you know, and her heartwas just as broken.
You know, I mean we don'tmeasure, but I'm saying she, she
(20:53):
was definitely grieving veryintensely, but her approach was
I really don't want peoplelooking at me and saying, oh,
poor her.
It was very important to her.
I was kind of beyond caring atthat point.
But after the meeting Iactually bought lipstick.
I went home and was like youknow what?
Like what am I doing?
You know, it scares everybody,it's scaring myself.
So you know, we're allfunctioning differently and
(21:18):
every day is another story, sowe just do the best we can.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
It's funny when you said I don't know what your
answer was to the donut man whenhe asked how many kids you have
, but like I could relate tothat a lot because I remember
also, like you know, peoplewould say to me like, oh, so
where are you going for Yontif?
And I would be like, oh, I'mgoing to go home.
Oh, no, I can't go home becausemy parents are dead.
Maybe I'll go to my sister.
Oh wait, no, she's also dead,you know.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
And they'd be like, sorry, I asked don't ever ask
anyone that question and Istormed out of the store.
My problem was my daughter waswith me, my 15 year old, and she
was horrified and she's like hejust wanted to give you donuts
it's crazy.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
It's crazy how, like you just don't know what's going
on in people's lives.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
And an innocent question, it's rough it's rough,
but you need to keep humor.
I used to say you know I canhorrify people.
I could say I wish half my kidswere dead.
I wish only half my kids weredead.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
It's a scary thought.
It is so crazy.
Do you ever like with yourbabies?
I'm sure with Jesse you like?
Imagine that.
You know this is the stage inlife he would be at.
Or you see friends of his thatyou know married and have
children?
Speaker 3 (22:32):
no-transcript had to get used to the idea that we
would have this very handicappedchild.
And I remember one of the firstthings I thought when they told
me that they don't know ifhe'll ever walk.
Like they tested his brain andthey saw that he has some
definite cognitive issues andneuromuscular will bring with it
inability to move properly, tothink, to function.
(22:53):
And I remember thinking I'mgoing to have this child like
I'm going to be stuck with himand how am I going to help him?
And my first thought I evensaid it I said what am I going
to do with him when he's 20?
And I said this to a parent whohas handicapped children and
she said to me how about wedon't worry about when he's 20?
, how about we just worry about,like you know, his fluid intake
today and how you're going toget through today?
(23:13):
So it was a very different test.
It was with the babies, whowere busy all the time.
We were constantly meeting withdoctors.
There was a lot of research,there was a lot of ongoing
anxiety.
I would come to the hospitaland every time a doctor would
come near me I would just wantto run, you know, because it was
never good news.
So we lived in a differentstate of very high anxiety.
It was like 100 deaths over andover again.
(23:34):
It wasn't like I had thesedelightful, easy babies in my
house and then lost them.
So the trauma was well, therewas a very big sense of loss
because each one they were sosweet but I didn't know them as
people.
Sadness was more so.
The horror of it.
Going to the hospital wasalways devastating.
They would come and say, oh,the lung collapsed, oh, we're
(23:55):
doing this thing, oh, we need todo a surgery to insert that.
And it was always adeterioration and it was very
draining.
And then there was a lot of theresearch was really involved in
finding out if my other kidsare really healthy, if they
could have healthy kids, if Icould involved in finding out if
my other kids are reallyhealthy, if they could have
healthy kids, if I could.
(24:15):
So it was a different type oftest, a different type of trauma
.
With Yossi it's like we havethis healthy, beautiful, 23 year
old, vibrant, adorable youngman.
I mean, we were so close, hewas so alive and then boom, you
know.
So there was a shock there andthe loss was just so much more
layered.
It's Yossi, it's not a baby,right Right, although I did.
(24:35):
I got attached to my babies alsoin a different way.
I sensed at some point thatthey were more like Neshamas
that were here for a short timeand that there were lessons in
giving and in nurturing and inaccepting.
I really got an awareness ofNeseshamas with my babies.
I began to sense that there'ssomething more here.
It's not a mistake.
Me and my husband, we'rebringing these very fragile
(24:56):
lives in and out of the worldand our job while they're here
is to nurture and to sing shemawith them and to accept that
neshama journeys look howeverthey look, and this is unique to
us, not a mistake.
And to give in that way andalso to accept the size of my
family and I know that fourchildren is a nice family, but
in my mind, remember, I hadthree kids in three years.
(25:18):
My fourth child was born.
The first sick baby was bornwhen Yossi was four.
There were going to be lots andlots of babies.
Yeah, so that was.
It was an adjustment.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
My goodness, I know, I just I, I, I just I can't
imagine.
I don't even know what to say.
But what's mashkela?
What does that mean?
Speaker 3 (25:34):
mashkela just means bereaved mom.
It's a term from chumash right.
It means it means to me italways meant like nebuch, but it
just means a mom whose childrendied.
Where is it used?
Do you know where it's used?
It's used in one of the brachasthat there won't be a mashkela.
And the other way in the, inthe brachas, that there won't be
a Mishakele, and the other wayin the Cholos.
I think it's a Chumash term.
I think it's in Devarim, whereit talks about bereaved parents.
(25:56):
Yeah, that there won't be.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
I remember doing research on it and I have to go
back and reread, but I rememberit seems like there's no word
for it in the English language.
It it's like a like there's noword for it in the English
language Like it seems like it'svery, it's very unique to.
To what?
To a bereaved parent.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Yes, I wrote a poem once about that and I wrote like
there's a word called orphan,right, there's an orphan.
An orphan is someone who lostchildren.
And I wrote well, I'm a napro,I'm backwards, I'm the orphan.
The other way, I'm the momwithout the kids, I'm a napro
and we should have that word.
And I went into that wholething.
But yeah, there really isn't aword in English for a mom
particularly, or a parent wholost a child.
(26:37):
No, no, in Hebrew there is,that's mishkela, but in English
not.
I think when the Kohen Gadoldavened in Yom Kippur, I used to
think about that.
The holiest person is the KohenGadol.
On the holiest day of YomKippur, in the holiest place in
the Qadr Shakedashim.
What was his tefillah?
He davened that a woman notlose her child, not in utero, or
you know just that we're not.
(26:58):
That she not, she not lose herpregnancy.
I mean, that's like thetefillah in that time, that that
was a tefillah really yeah andshalom, but that was the
tefillah.
That's should not lose that,because it's it just rips at the
kishkas of us Like it justtears us apart from the inside.
We're we're wired to want toprotect our kids.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
I know Right, even when a child goes through
something, that's like a littlehard and it's just a little hard
and it's a passing stage andit's like pretty, like
relatively simple.
It's like it's so hard.
Speaker 3 (27:27):
I also think when I say that we're wired for that, I
also think that in a certainsense we, our neshamas, know the
journey.
You know, we know.
I remember when Yossi was bornI was like he made me a mother.
He was my first, and in thedelivery room and I actually
opened the book with that it'sthe beginning of my book I wrote
the first words.
I said, as a mom would don'tdrop him.
(27:49):
And we laughed about that.
And then I wrote how we laughedabout it because it was my
first words as a mother.
I mean, usually when you have ahealthy baby, you say you say
did you count his fingers andtoes?
You say let me see him.
You say isn't he adorable?
You say thank you, god.
You say something else and Isaid don't drop him.
And my husband is a mile, heknows how to hold a baby.
Like where did that come from?
And later I realized and Iwrote this, I wrote that you
(28:11):
know, my soul somehow knew asense that for me and my husband
, like we wouldn't be able tohold on to him.
So I feel like Hashem gives usI don't want to say the ability
or the tools, because it washard and it hurt a lot, but I
feel like at a soul level, at anashram level, we do recognize
(28:32):
the challenges that we head intoand we find the answers that we
need if we're looking for them.
We find the strength withinourselves and we find people in
our lives who are willing to andable to help us through this.
Somehow it's unique to us, it'sour test.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
I was amazed when I read that your husband's a male
for his child's children.
Speaker 3 (28:53):
Yes, Like how.
I think that Nachman has thisunique way of functioning.
He does what he needs to do andhe does what's right, and more
than me.
I tend to be much more mushy inmy personality.
You know he doesn't talk a lot.
I dedicated the book I wrote toNachman.
You know no words, onlyeverything.
And it's a play on words alsobecause I'm the one with all the
(29:14):
words.
Nachman is quieter but so muchmore direct about.
This is what we need to do andhe wanted to.
To him, it felt important.
Did he ask for it or she askedfor it?
Speaker 2 (29:25):
No, she reached out he wouldn't do that.
He asked for it or she askedfor it no she reached out.
Speaker 3 (29:27):
He wouldn't do that, but the point was it felt to him
like Yossi is still somehow inthis picture and we're not
confused about this.
She is not in our family, shehas moved on and that's healthy,
baruch Hashem.
But it was just so strangebecause it's like an almost
daughter-in-law who.
There was no breakup, there wasonly love and acceptance, and
(29:48):
we were thrilled and was soexcited to have her in our
family.
So it's interesting how I wrotethat in the book too, that
Yossi and her and I won't useher name in the book she's the
only name that's not real.
All the other names in the bookare real, except for hers,
because in her time she will.
It's not a secret.
People can look it up, but shewill tell her children or deal
with it when she's ready.
But the point is Yossi and herneeded to meet and they needed
(30:10):
to agree to spend the rest oftheir lives together and that's
it.
And I needed to have an almostdaughter-in-law.
I needed to know that there wassomebody out there who wanted
to marry Yossi and that was it.
That's what we got and I'm gladwe had that.
But yeah, it's definitely outof the ordinary, it's not too
typical.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
What was it like for her like, what was it like for
you to know that she also justlost a huge loss, but but she's
not even sending shiva becausethe loss I mean a few months
later, I don't know, eight weekslater she would have said shiva
, but now she was just a nothingyeah, yeah, nothing.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
I mean we didn't talk a lot about it, shiva, because
it was a sudden death also.
Really, we were all soshell-shocked and we're
processing in the moment andwhen she was there the house was
very full of people so it wasvery intense.
There was not really a chanceto talk properly and I don't
know how much we would have beenable to because of how sudden
it was.
It's like when you're runningfull force somewhere then you
(31:06):
have to make a screeching stop.
There's trauma to that kind ofa stop, so we didn't really talk
in depth.
She came back later to saygoodbye properly and to go to
his grave, which was animportant move later.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
Where did she live?
She lived in New York.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
Yeah, she lived in New York and I wrote about it
during the shiva.
When she came to say goodbyetowards the end of shiva, I
didn't handle it well, I just Iwrote about it.
I had this image of likeeverything unraveling and I just
wanted to like hold on to herand say, it's not fear, I lost,
yossi, I don't want to lose you.
Like just be in my familyanyway, which is so not healthy.
And then I went upstairs andclosed myself in my room and
then my kids showed up.
(31:40):
They wouldn't let me and theyall climbed into my bed with me
and with their shoes and we justheld each other and we just
made fun of all the funny thingspeople said during Shiva and we
just started.
First we were all crying andthen one of my kids made one
comment and another kid madeanother comment and all of a
sudden we're just like in ourbed with our shoes on and
laughing at the absurd thing andcrying.
And if that doesn't sound crazed, it just kind of was.
(32:03):
It was just really crazy.
Crazy is the word.
We didn't know where to putourselves.
So she, she held herself.
Well, she had good support andguidance and I'm I'm grateful
for that Because she left us.
She said goodbye towards theend of Shiva, and then she came
back to do, you know, just aquieter, almost like a closure,
and then that was that and I hadto let her go.
(32:24):
Wow, yeah, she needed to moveon.
She's young, of course.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Yeah, it's like oh, my goodness, yeah.
So can I say something else?
You wrote about Xanax.
You took Xanax.
Speaker 3 (32:39):
I didn't do very well with it.
I took one and couldn't move.
People were well-meaning.
My friend came over with alittle bag of it and then I took
like smaller bits of it.
I started to take it, but verysmall, because the first time I
took it it actually affected meso badly that I actually had
trouble lifting my head.
I guess I'm sensitive or theygave me much too big of a dose.
I hadn't ever taken anythinglike that before, so I didn't
react well.
But then I did take very smallbits of it for a while to sleep.
But we had only a baggie with afew, it wasn't, I didn't have
(33:01):
that many.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
I feel like it's a, it's an important, like message
to put out there.
Like sometimes you needmedicine and it doesn't I mean
not that you have to go tell thewhole world, but it doesn't
have to be this like shamefulsecret.
If you want to share it with asister or a friend or a mother
or whatever, like that's okay,like it's not the end of the
world, cause you need somemedicine for a little bit.
Speaker 3 (33:20):
No, of course not.
That's why it's there.
I mean, like anything, therapyI mean I did EMDR and it was
very helpful for me.
Everybody has what works forthem.
In the immediate aftermath ofhis death I couldn't function, I
couldn't sleep.
So that really did help me.
And then when I ran out of itand I really couldn't sleep, it
became a problem.
It's very common this insomnia,but it's frightening.
(33:40):
I didn't want to becomedependent on drugs, but I also
didn't want to be up all night.
Every night I was eating,through the night I was just.
My mind was going everywhere.
So, like everything, hashemcreated remedies.
They need to be used carefullyand it has to fit the person.
But of course, to me, whateverworks and this did it helped me.
(34:01):
Yeah, it helped me.
I didn't use it a lot, I didn'treact well to it, but of course
I don't see why there would beany kind of a shame to it,
although the truth is, evenlater, when I was going up and
down, up and down and veryemotional, and my friends were
suggesting like a pill, and Isaid why?
And they said, well, to balanceyou out, and I went on, this
(34:24):
whole tirade of I'm not the onethat unbalanced Hashem,
unbalanced my family, you knowdefinitely couldn't do something
.
And it's okay.
It was really.
The book is really the story ofone great big temper tantrum
and then kind of accepting okay,this is it, girl, this is it.
Now what?
What kind of person you want tobe?
You're about to become agrandma.
You want to be the sad, angrygrandma.
No one will help you.
Seriously though I'm laughingabout it but seriously, grief
(34:56):
can really take a bite out ofyou and unless somebody has some
kind of a clinical situationwhere they might need it forever
or whatever, they'll need moreintensive care.
For most of us, I think thatunless there's really really a
chemical issue and a medicalconcern, grief it does.
We weather it and it's okay tohave some support if you need,
and usually I see so many people, I talk to so many people about
(35:16):
it.
They come out stronger, calmer,more aware of the gifts in
their lives.
That's a funny, unexpectedtwist.
But being able to feel deep,deep grief also enables you to
feel deep, deep joy.
I mean you should see me withmy grandkids.
We just have a good time.
I'm so profoundly grateful,right?
So it's okay If you need a lift, if Xanax gets you some sleep
(35:37):
so that you, you know you canfunction during the day.
It's there for a reason, and ifsomebody has like a more
serious depression, that'sanother story.
Very likely the preconditionsor the or the tendency was there
before.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Right, right right.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
But there's a reason for all this.
There's a lot of medical helpout there.
There's a lot of very goodtherapies out there.
Hashem created these remediesand these supports.
Why not Use them if you needthem?
Of course, and I don'tunderstand the shame part.
For me, when I was screamingabout the imbalance, it wasn't
about shame, it was more aboutrage, like Yossi dies and I have
to take pills.
But the answer really was yes.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Who should take them?
He, wow, so can we end off andcan we talk about?
I know you were talking aboutyour workshops earlier and
finding yourself, but you put inthe book about under like the
parasha of Lech Lecha right, andthat we have to journey into
ourselves.
Yes, so can we talk about that?
Speaker 3 (36:31):
So Lech Lecha it's actually my birthday, parasha
and Lech Lecha I wrote about itin the book too.
That was my lesson.
Lech Lecha means go to yourself.
What do you mean?
Go to yourself, you know you gosomewhere else.
So it's really about acceptingyour journey and that Hashem
puts all the signposts and allthe supports that you need for
your neshama path.
And if you allow that Hashemruns the world and that is not a
(36:56):
mistake then you're open to theguideposts.
And I wrote in the book.
During Shiva was a very angrytime for me.
I was like really reacting toeverything, but I was also, at
the same time, rememberingdifferent lessons, and one of
the things I remember somebodysaid to me they made a comment
and it reminded me that I hadlearned once that when you have
a merchant who wants to sellpots and he wants to show
(37:16):
everyone you know how goodquality his pots are.
So he's going to pick a pot andhe's going to bang on it really
hard and it won't break right.
So then people say, oh, that'sa very good pot, but he's not
going to pick a pot that's goingto collapse as soon as he bangs
on it.
He's going to pick thestrongest pot and during Shavuot
I had a reaction to that and Iremember thinking I'm a pot, you
know I'm a boiling pot and Igot very angry.
But I remember thinking butHashem gave me and my husband,
(37:41):
these children who weren't inthis world a long time, and the
babies, and then Yossi Part ofme, my N Shama, accepted and
understands this and it's allset up.
And I remember actually, and we,when Yossi was born, my husband
and I, we took our new baby wasvery exciting and we went to
buy a stroller.
And this was before theinternet, before you could go
(38:02):
looking up ratings.
We didn't know.
So we're talking about, youknow, 38 years ago, 37 years ago
.
So we went to a baby.
You know the store was soexciting and we're looking at
all the different strollers.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
And we didn't know how many years since he was
lifted 30, 37 years?
Speaker 3 (38:16):
Yes, he would have been 37.
Wow, yes, he would have been.
I always mix it up.
He was born 87.
Yeah, so we went to look at allthe strollers and the salesman
there showed us one that he saysis really, really good.
He says and I said but itdoesn't look so strong.
It was like it looked like itwas made out of fabric and I was
.
I wanted something a littlemore sturdy.
(38:37):
He says no, no, this is thestrongest stroller I'll show you
.
And he climbed into it and hesat in it and my husband and I
were so impressed we bought thatstroller and later my husband
was saying I bet you hereinforced it and he uses that
as a gimmick, but the truth is Ithought about that afterwards.
Hashem says you know, I'm givingyou this, I reinforced it.
You're going to be okay,meaning Lech Lecha, go to you.
(38:59):
My journey is mine.
Other people's journeys aretheirs.
We all have, and sometimes Ihear about somebody else going
through something ugly or dark,like a difficulty with a child
or with a addiction or with.
You know all these unspeakablesand no one ever wants to talk
about.
That is a very big reality formany, many families, even in the
from world, even people we knowand that's their journey.
(39:20):
So, whatever a person isbattling, if it's like you know,
grief from loss, or if it'smental illness, or if it's
someone getting hurt by someone,whatever stuff, we are
navigating in this world, lechlecha, that's our neshama work
and Hashem gives us.
This is going to sound big, butit's true.
(39:41):
Hashem gives us what we need tobe able to do what we need to
do.
It doesn't mean it doesn't hurtand it doesn't mean we don't
have setbacks, but Hashem helpsus get to where we can work
through this challenge andactualize really the strength
and the light of our neshama.
It will develop awareness, wedevelop sensitivity, we become
more spiritual, because we reachout to Hashem and we say tell
(40:03):
me the work of today.
And maybe we don't allarticulate it the same way, but
when we're facing somethingdifficult, we don't give up.
We find the resources.
I see people doing that all thetime, stumbling along, figuring
out what they need to do,encouraging others, helping
others so many of them.
You look now after October 7th,and everybody's like a whole
explosion of people who aresuddenly keeping shoppies or
(40:25):
speaking out in such a beautifulway, instead of like crawling
into a corner and saying, forgetit, I've lost too much.
They are shining light, they'regiving strength.
It doesn't mean they're nothurt, but they recognize a soul
potential and a potential tobring down godliness, just to
make this godly, to make this abattle of kuss, and that's lech
(40:46):
lecha, it's the ultimate purposeof anishamah, and people do it.
That's Lech Lecha, it's theultimate purpose of
Anishinaabemowin.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
And people do it.
So how does a person look intothemselves to see where they are
now and what tools they couldfind within themselves to get to
where they have to go?
Speaker 3 (41:01):
So the first thing I would say is very, very slowly,
there's no magic transformationhere.
When I speak, people say thingsto me like oh, you grew up
religious, so you have a strongbackground so you can do it, but
I can't.
People say things to me like,oh, you grew up religious, so
you have a strong background soyou can do it, but I can't.
Or you're so spiritual I hearyou speaking.
You're so spiritual, or you'reso strong I don't know where
they get that from.
Or you're so happy because I'mwearing lipstick, you know, and
people make these assumptionsLike there's a place called
(41:21):
strong or spiritual or happy,and for me it's not like that at
all.
For me it's really minute byminute.
I wake up in the morning and Ithink today I really don't want
to talk, I'm too busy, or it'sMonday, and you know Monday's
hard or whatever situation it is.
And then I realize, okay, sojust say these psukkim, just say
these things, just do thislittle bit, a little bit at a
time.
There's no great clear roadmapthat spells out exactly, other
(41:47):
than the Torah that tells us Iexpect you, as a Jew, to find
Hashem in this world, to dothese mitzvahs, to follow these
halachas, to treat peopleproperly.
But the way to really tune intoour own message is simply
minute by minute, choice bychoice.
I can be poor, me, and I cancry, or I can.
Maybe we do sometimes need tocry, maybe we do sometimes need
(42:08):
to face our feelings.
That's a whole separatediscussion about being authentic
, about what we're feeling, butat the same time, do a little
bit of good.
Learn one little thing, say oneprayer, do one little bit, do
another little bit, because whenwe say I have to become this
great spiritual journeyer, mysoul potential, that's very
scary, that's very overwhelming.
(42:30):
But day by day, minute byminute, from the time we wake up
in the morning, just thedecision to make the day count,
not to let our situations, thefear and the anxiety kind of you
know, bowl us over and reallyto make the time count.
And it's so easy to lose track.
(42:50):
You know I have this.
There was a bakery.
I travel a lot, so it was abakery somewhere on the East
coast that I used to stop inbefore I did a talk whenever I
was in that city and I would sitthere and I was between
breakfast and lunch.
What's the harm?
A coffee, a Danish, and I wouldwork, because I work as a
writer, also for Amis.
I would sit there and one time,I don't know why, they did some
renovations and suddenly theyput up a calorie count next to
the danishes.
(43:11):
I had this, I know I'm tellingyou, chocolate date Danish, and
it wasn't a meal, it was alwaysbetween.
And I'm just stopping by, andwhat's the harm?
How big is it?
It comes on a little plate andthe Danish that I used to have
just in between, just while I'mworking, was over 800 calories
and I always had it, like youknow, with a cappuccino.
Oh, my goodness, like to me.
(43:32):
How many times, without athought, I think what's, what's
the harm?
And you know nothing fits andI'm wondering why there's
nothing fit anymore.
You know what's going on hereand I realized that we're not
aware of how much every littlething counts.
And suddenly, when they'reposting calories, people, really
it's a very smart move, by theway, not for their business, but
for health, you know, because Ijust couldn't order that,
(43:52):
because I know that I have alimited amount of calories that
I can get away with, or forgetit.
But the point was it really mademe aware because I would just
eat it without a thought.
But then suddenly I see it andit's the same thing with that.
We wake up in the morning wethink, okay, it's really going
to matter today If I daven.
It's really going to mattertoday if I daven, it's really
going to matter if I take thatcall from that person who needs
a listening ear.
I could just pretend I didn'tsee it or tell her I have to go.
(44:14):
What difference will it make inthe big 100-year plan?
But the truth is, yes, everycalorie counts, every deed
counts, every word counts, everymitzvah counts.
We're here in this world to dogood, to refine ourselves, to
make a difference, to bring downlight and every action we do.
(44:34):
That is our lech lecha.
And how do we know?
Well, we look where we are, thefamily we're in, the
circumstances we're in.
Hashem sets us up, he places usplunk right there in that path.
Speaker 2 (44:44):
Yeah, but could it ever be that right now I'm just
I'm not going to daven and I'mjust going to accept that for
today this is where I'm holdingand maybe tomorrow I could daven
.
Speaker 3 (44:54):
I feel like we need to go as gently and slowly as we
can If we're feeling like we'regetting bowled over, meaning
it's not an easy time.
A lot of people are dealingwith a lot of anxiety.
Life is busy, so it's not somuch I will daven I won't daven.
It's more the awareness,because that's very individual
and we have to do the best thatwe can in every moment.
(45:16):
But it's the awareness that weare here in this world for a
reason and the lech lecha thatyou were bringing up go to
yourself.
That's the journey in thisworld.
Hashem said here I'm giving youthis set of circumstances.
I'm asking you to stayconnected to me.
I'm asking you not to forgetthat you have an Hashem.
If we're feeling weak or we'refeeling like we're having a hard
(45:37):
time, I've had those days and Imess up.
I have a lazier day or anangrier day or a day when I know
I could have done better and Icould have been more authentic
with people or I could have beenmore spiritual, and I say, okay
, here I am now, this minute,today, or sometimes I'm davening
and the first 30 minutes ofdavening will go and I'm turning
pages and I realize, oh, mygoodness, I haven't paid
(45:58):
attention to a single word, thefirst 30 minutes.
How long do you daven for?
And I do it?
Right, it's long and I'mthinking, my goodness, like I
know that a tefillah withoutkavanah gets stuck.
I know from Tanya that itdoesn't make it up and I think,
okay, but right now, so say thenext pasuk with kavanah, do just
one.
We have to remember that Hashemmade us human beings.
(46:19):
My davening workshop, I do thisthing called my beast and my
flame, and I talk about thestruggle between the part of me
that loves you know thespiritual and feels the
connection, and then the beastthat just wants to think about
food or other things you know,and we go back and forth so much
.
And that is the journey.
Hashem didn't create us allangelic and spiritual.
Hashem created us with twoforces in us the beast and the
(46:42):
flame, the part of it that's,you know, and I actually wrote
it as a poem.
I wrote it for my 10th graderswhen I was teaching high school
and I use it now in my workshopfor adults.
I've adapted it a bit, but thepoint is that is the story of
our lives.
The flame is reaching up.
There's a part of us that wantsmeaning, that craves something
bigger.
In this mess of a world wherethere's so much ugly, we want
something beautiful, we wantlight, we want meaning, we want
(47:04):
to do something, we want toaccomplish.
It's the most important reallyurge that a person has is to
make a difference, not to wastea life.
But then there's the day to daypull of the beast to either the
pleasures of the world or toget caught up in the
(47:24):
distractions and challenges ofthe world.
And I think that minute byminute, we can accomplish just
small things and just theawareness of the struggle, not
to feel like I must be a badperson because I'm struggling.
We're all struggling.
That's why we're here, so torecognize that.
And when we accept that thestruggle is the game, then we
don't act so surprised everytime it's a little difficult,
okay.
Speaker 2 (47:43):
I don't even know what to say.
I mean, I guess you know thatyou're accomplishing your tafkin
in this world.
Speaker 3 (47:48):
I guess you could feel that we all are, we all are
, we all are.
Hashem makes sure of it one wayor the other.
Speaker 2 (47:54):
Right.
But when someone could reallysay this is what I worked on and
this is how far I've come andthis is where I was and this is
where I am today, then they knowthat they're really, really,
really.
You know, not everyone couldsay that, not everyone could
have exact clarity of where theywere and where they are now.
Speaker 3 (48:10):
But the only thing that I have clarity on is that
I'm no longer as angry.
I accept that I am Yossi's momand that he was here for a
purpose, and I am still hismother because Anishinaabemowin
is forever.
But as far as the struggle tostay positive, to stay connected
, to be aware of the spiritualover the immediate physical, to
not get thrown by morechallenges because, believe it
(48:34):
or not, life brings more layersof things that's ongoing.
I have not arrived at a place,not at all.
I'm just aware of the struggle.
It's really just that.
Speaker 2 (48:42):
Okay, I thank you so much for coming on.
Is there any important messagesthat we didn't talk about that
we should before we end?
Speaker 3 (48:49):
Just to remember that Hashem is real and so we learn
about it in theory.
And then these sometimes aShkach HaPrata story will happen
.
I have so many I wrote in thebook, I read a lot of them,
something will happen and I'llbe like wow and I think.
But we know, we know Hashem isreal.
Our Neshamahs are forever.
We're Neshamhamas before wecame in this world.
We're neshamas after we leavethis world.
(49:10):
In this world, the neshamas geta body so we can do some work,
but not to lose sight of that,that Hashem is so close to us
and that we are primarily soulshere for a purpose and to trust,
just to keep that connection.
Speaker 2 (49:25):
Right, oh my gosh, I have so much to say but I'm not
going to.
Okay, oh my gosh, I have somuch to say but I'm not going to
.
Yeah, okay.
So, thank you so so much.
I think that you are going tobe an inspiration to many and I
really appreciate you coming inWith pleasure.
Speaker 1 (49:40):
You've just listened to an episode of the Relief from
Grief podcast with MiriamRiviet, brought to you by Mayrim
.
For more episodes, visit theMayrim website at wwwmayrimorg.
Help us reach more people whomight benefit from this podcast.
If you know someone who couldfind it helpful, please share it
with them.
If you have questions orcomments for the speaker, or if
(50:03):
you'd like to suggest a guestfor the podcast, we'd love to
hear from you.
Email us at relieffromgrief atmayrimorg.
We look forward to having youjoin us in the next episode.
Welcome to the Relief from Grief podcast, hosted by
Mrs Miriam Rebiet and brought toyou by Mayrim.
Mayrim is an organizationdedicated to supporting families
who have experienced the lossof a child.
It was founded by IloyNishmat's, nechama Liba and
Miriam Holman.
Despite her illness, miriamdevoted herself to addressing
(00:22):
the needs of parents andsiblings grappling with the
immense pain of losing a child.
She felt this loss deeply,having experienced it firsthand
when her older sister, nechamaLiba, passed away.
Mehrim continues to uplift andexpand on the work Miriam began,
a mission carried forward byher parents with great
dedication.
(00:43):
If you have any questions orcomments for the speaker, or if
you'd like to suggest a guestfor the podcast, please email us
at relieffromgrief at mayrimorg.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Hi everybody.
Thank you so much for joiningme here at the Relief from Grief
with Mayrim podcast Today.
Mrs Devayi Kriman is on and sheis the author of the book, even
If I'm Not, and she is a prettywell-known speaker and she
gives workshops and thank you somuch for coming on, it's a
pleasure.
I guess we could start off alittle bit with your story,
(01:16):
right, what you have to do withgrief, unfortunately, so here it
is in short, because it'sreally been out there a lot.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
So my husband and I were married 38 years and we had
three healthy kids in threeyears.
And then our fourth child wasborn.
He looked perfectly normal buthe was very weak and the doctors
had never seen anything like itbecause he appeared so normal
but he just didn't have anystrength and in the end they
diagnosed him with failure tothrive, which doesn't mean much
except he's not doing what he'ssupposed to be doing.
(01:43):
And we tried different, theytried so many different
treatments but nobody reallyknew what they were dealing with
.
And after a few months he justgot weaker and weaker and he
died.
And we thought, okay, it's thissad tragedy that happened in
our lives.
Sometimes babies are not viableand we're going to go on with
our family.
And the doctor said you know,you can have all the kids, it
shouldn't be anything.
So we had another baby.
(02:03):
We actually named her NechamaMiriam.
Nechama for comfort for thebaby that died, and Miriam
because my grandmother had beenMiriam.
Later we realized NechamaMiriam means bitter comfort, but
we didn't know that until wedidn't realize that and
everybody was so excited andmazel tov and I'm holding my
Nechama Miriam, and she has aseizure in my arms.
And our first baby one of thesymptoms that he had had it's a
(02:24):
neuromuscular disease that hehad.
We didn't know it yet but itwas seizures and I knew what it
was.
And right away she washospitalized and we realized
that this is not a one-timefailure to thrive situation.
We have a hereditary issuegoing on, but they still didn't
know exactly.
Very long story we got a brachafrom the Lubavitcher Rebbe for a
healthy baby.
Nechamim, baby Nacham andMariam was sick for a few months
(02:47):
.
They tried.
They tried couldn't help her.
We had a healthy baby inbetween.
We named her Bracha Brachalea,baruch Hashem, healthy and well.
She's a mom now too, and so wehad the three healthy ones from
before and then our Brachalea,and by then we were learning
more about the disorder.
We realized that our babies havea mitochondrial disorder.
They're unable to produceenergy.
But the odds were still good.
We had four healthy kids.
We spoke to a lot of doctors.
(03:08):
The research was prettyextensive.
We even sent samplesinternational just trying to
figure out what happens to ourfamily now.
In the end we had two morechildren.
Both of them were sick.
We came pretty far in theresearch, but not far enough for
a cure.
And we knew we also came farenough to know that our four
healthy children are completelyhealthy, because sometimes with
mitochondrial disorders it canpresent differently.
But we had four healthychildren and then we knew that
(03:29):
the four that were sick, we hada risk with every pregnancy for
that to happen 25% risk, whichdoesn't seem high because it's
75% odds for a healthy child and25% chance for a sick child.
It's basically a mutation whichmy husband and I share very
rare, and so in every pregnancythere's a one in four that both
of us will give the mutated gene.
But because every time we had asick child it was so traumatic
(03:52):
on the family.
The child that was born was not24% sick, it was either a
hundred percent sick or healthy.
We couldn't do it anymore and Iwas in my early thirties and we
knew we wouldn't have any morechildren.
And yeah, and that was a biggiefor me, um, because my last two
babies had been sick and I wasjust yearning in my mind if
somebody has a baby, everythingin their life is perfect, you
know, just being able to havebabies and I had children, but I
(04:12):
was just yearning for that onemore.
I guess greedy, because I hadhad a healthy baby after.
But my last two were sick and I, just I was convinced all I
needed in life just that onething let me be able to have one
more, you know we always wantthat last baby.
So that was a lot of work for me.
Honestly it was.
It was very difficult and myhusband and I were really
determined we're not going to bethis Nebuch family.
Even when the kids were sick, Imean, we went through 10 years
(04:34):
of a lot of working with thehospital when the babies were
alive and even after they died,with all the research.
We were very involved in it.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
I didn't want to be.
You know that.
Never family.
Look at her.
You know such sick children, orhalf our kids died because we
had four healthy kids.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
So did your babies come home or they were in the
hospital the whole time?
They were in the hospital.
They were too sick to come homebecause they kept getting
sicker and sicker.
There was one of them.
We had much better care by ourthird baby because the research
had taken us further and weended up in a children's
hospital.
She was transferred.
She was the only baby that wasactually moved and she did
better because we dealt withspecialists there and we came so
much further and at one pointwe prepared to bring her home
and they have this step downunit first with.
(05:14):
Babies have to be so they canstabilize Even at home.
It would have been a verycontrolled environment.
She would have needed full-timecare.
They want life support, not inthe beginning, but as they
deteriorate In the beginning,not In the beginning.
They're presented normally,which is why they missed it.
We had two girls, two boys.
The boys were more sick rightaway.
The girls presented a littlebetter in the beginning and then
struggled.
(05:34):
They just had a little bit ofstronger genetic material.
I'm not sure exactly why, butthey did a little better.
They also lived a little longer, but as they got sicker.
They needed more and moresupport.
But with one of them we camevery close.
She made it, we finally.
It was a very big deal.
I can't even describe to youthe amount of bureaucracy and
(05:55):
how many people we dealt with.
But we were trying to bring herhome and we finally arranged
for a cure center, like a, youknow, as a stepping stone.
If she could be stabilizedthere then we could bring her
home.
The point was to keep herstable.
They were already at that pointnot even looking for a cure,
they were just looking for howto manage care.
That's how severe it was atthat point.
When she was born I had nursedher like she, but they
deteriorated.
(06:15):
It's kind of like pay sex, butit goes much quicker.
At that point she was reallyjust going to get care.
So they we finally got hertransferred to the center after
so much work.
She made it there one day andthen she crashed and was back in
the hospital and that was that.
So they never made it home, butthat was as close as we got.
I was able to hold them andthey grew.
(06:35):
They didn't look like sickchildren, except for a lot of
hospitalization will causecertain things and there'll be
certain reactions to medications, so there was swelling and the
intubation will bring a certainlook.
So they had that, but theylooked like perfectly normal
babies, beautiful babies, youknow.
Their hair grew and theirbodies grew and they were sweet
and pretty.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
Very, very sick.
So after that we had the fourhealthy kids and I thought, okay
, that's it.
I did my big thing.
I lost half my kids but we'restill this happy, functional
family and we were we reallywere For the most part always
like.
Yom Tov was always very nice inour house, if anything.
I went to the other extreme.
I really made an effort andthen, quite a few years later,
(07:16):
our son, our 23-year-old son,Yossi.
He was a chasen and he went tocamp Chabad all over the world.
He was in Costa Rica and he wasa learning counselor.
He was very much of a learnedkind of really nerdy kind of kid
and they took the kids on trips.
So they took him.
He went scuba diving with thecampers and fell in love with
the nature and wanted tocontinue.
Meanwhile he came home, he gotengaged and he was going for a
(07:37):
certification.
Something went wrong with theequipment and Yossi drowned.
So the book was really writtenafter Yossi died.
It's a story of loss after lossand coming back, like how do I
relate to other people whohaven't lost most of their kids
and how do I have an authenticconnection with Hashem when I
felt so kicked to the side andhow do I find my own strength?
(07:59):
How do I still feel likeYossi's mother and function
without being a raving lunatic?
Speaker 2 (08:05):
So you wanted to be Yossi's mother and function
without being, you know, ravinglunatic.
So that's so.
You wanted to be Yossi's mother.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
That feeling of I need to be Yossi's mother was
more than by your babies thebabies because I never got to
know them individually as people.
They were very tiny when theywere responsive and then within
weeks they were slipping away.
Somebody would have traded babywith me.
I would have taken another babyTo me.
It was just I wanted that hold.
I actually did.
I have a friend who has twochildren with severe special
(08:32):
needs and one of them was in thehospital at the same time as my
baby.
Hospitals across the street andwe actually became very close
and her baby went home and shewas very overwhelmed.
My baby was still in thehospital and I ended up taking
her baby to my house.
A lot.
I would take him for ShabbatSim.
This is a baby that came with afeeding tube and with heart
issues, but we would take himhome.
He was a delicious.
I mean, she trusted us and itwas just very good for both of
(08:56):
us.
It was a friendship forgedreally in the trenches.
I know you wrote in the bookabout-.
Yossi was different.
Yossi was 23.
He was 23.
And Yossi and I were close, soit was a different kind of a
loss than the babies.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
I know I have a son that loves scuba diving.
I think maybe he got past thatpoint now, but he's Good, you
know, and every time he goes I'mlike, but there's someone that
died from it.
You can say that so many thingsI know, and it's really a safe
activity.
And no, I mean, what happenedto your son was very like, not
typical, wasn't it?
I don't even know.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Is it safe?
Is it not safe?
I don't know, I'm not an experton it, but what happened to him
was a quip and malfunction andit can happen.
I mean it is an extreme sport,but at that moment you know he
gets to make his own decisionand there was a lot of that.
But the truth is I have toaccept that at that moment I had
(09:47):
that knowledge and that was thebest I could do then.
But the babies too afterwards Iwas beating myself up.
I knew by the last two babiesalready we were taking a risk.
The first two we didn't know,but the last two, by the fourth
(10:08):
one, we knew and we knew itwould be the last baby one way
or the other.
And later I was beating myselfup like why did I have more
children?
I knew there's a risk, whydidn't I just stop?
But it's easy for the calm,reasoned 57-year-old now to say
you know why did you do that?
But I was very young.
And there's Ratzon.
You know Hashem's desire thatframes itself in our actions.
We have to accept that thepeople we were then made the
best decisions that we couldthen and we're not in charge.
Part of the way that wefunction in this world is that
(10:30):
we do the best we can at thattime and from there, if we made
a mistake or if somethingterrible happened, we build up.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
I guess that's learning to accept that that was
rest on Hashem.
Really, I mean Hashem made usmake that decision.
Be that age, have that mindset,because thisatzon Hashem really
I mean Hashem made us make thatdecision.
Be that age, have that mindset,because this is what Hashem
wants to happen.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
You know, I hounded the Rabbanim after the babies,
then again after Yossi.
I wanted to know was it ourfault?
Could we have prevented it?
How much control do we have?
And I did some learning.
And one of the things I learnedhow does it work with the
ratzen of Hashem?
If I do something dangerous andsomething bad happens, can I
say, well, it was Hashem's willall along?
(11:11):
So the Lubavitcher Rebbeexplains that there's the ratzen
of Hashem.
Hashem has a will thateverything will turn out the way
it actually turns out.
At the same time we don't hearthat will because that will is
very deep inside.
So we make decisions when arewe going to live, or what job
are we going to do?
All those decisions that wemake, those are also the will of
Hashem.
But that's the external will ofHashem.
It's more superficial things.
But when a person does something, he does something, let's say
(11:34):
wrong, and then he says, well,it was the will of Hashem,
because everything in the worldhas to be the will of Hashem.
So how does that work?
So the way it works is fromthat place where he did
something wrong and now he hasto climb up and do tshuva, or he
did something that hurt someoneelse, whatever it is that
technically looks bad.
So the way it works is it'salways the will of Hashem, but
(11:55):
we don't hear it.
The will of Hashem is in the.
There's like outer will andinner will of Hashem.
The inner will of Hashem ismore hidden from us and there's
like a suspension ofcommunication, meaning, wherever
we are, if I did somethingdangerous, if I did a sin, if I
did something wrong, from thatpoint where I now have to start
climbing up again, fixing orgrieving, whatever it is, that
(12:16):
is the will of Hashem.
But at the moment that I madethat decision, I wasn't hearing
the will of Hashem.
So I still made my choice.
And this is a complicatedconcept because we can't say
that anything in the world canhappen without Hashem.
At the same time, we can't say,well, it was Hashem's will.
So everything I did, so, evenour sins, even our mistakes, our
blunders, everything that we dowrong, the place where we end
(12:38):
up, that's Hashem's will.
That's the work of our soul tolook back, to accept.
This is where I was and here'smy journey.
Now Maybe it's 10 steps behind,where I was a year ago, but
really, once we start the work,we work ourselves up, or maybe
it's a hundred steps forward.
What do we know?
How can we measure reallyspiritual growth and emotional
growth?
But bottom line is it's reallya contradiction because nothing
(12:59):
happens without Hashem and yetwe're making choices, because
we're not hearing that well,we're making the choices with
the best emotional and spiritualand intellectual tools that we
have at the time, right, ifsomeone?
Speaker 2 (13:12):
actually does Neveira .
They decide to.
I don't know.
Speak Lashon Hara, skip Minion,eat Anim Kippur, whatever it is
.
I shouldn't say Skip Minion.
I don't know if that'sconsidered Neveira, but whatever
it is someone makes a decisionto do something.
You know an.
Whatever it is, someone makes adecision to do something you
know an obvious of error, thenyou could say that's not the
will of Hashem.
But if Hashem, but if someonemakes a choice and they think
that they're, if they think itthrough and they think they're
making the right choice and itends up being not the right
(13:33):
choice, then you could go backand say that was Hashem's will.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
They're all they're all Hashem's will, because the
way it works really is nothingcan happen in this world without
Hashem's will.
The only thing is we can't tell.
So therefore, we're stillmaking our choice.
It's like if you put in frontof a child two foods.
You know which one they'regoing to pick, but you're giving
them the choice we know.
And it's more about Hashem.
It's not just that Hashem knows, hashem orchestrates it,
because bottom line is, after wemake whatever decision, we make
(13:59):
we in a certain situation, thenwe have some fixing to do, we
have some growing to do.
Not a mistake, that's our soulwork.
It's a complex concept becausethe time isn't large, but we're
making choices because we're nothearing the Ratzan of Hashem.
We're making the choices basedon our own Do you discuss in
your workshops that you give.
In the workshops that I give, Idiscuss more.
(14:19):
I do a workshop on davening howto approach davening when it's
hard to daven and I do somepractical things and some
actually kind of sweet thingsyou know like to help us in a
davening.
And I also do some of the moreemotional layers of how do we
get to a place where we actuallybelieve that if I say these
words today, even if I said themyesterday and I say them
tomorrow, it'll make adifference today and now that
(14:39):
every single action counts.
And then I do workshops ontelling a story to ourselves,
you know, without getting in ourown way, being able to accept
the people that we were at thattime, if we were an immature 20
year old or if we were veryfrustrated 50 year old, whatever
it is to be able to say okay,that's the starting point Now,
what With honesty, withauthenticity.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
So let's go back to authenticity because because I
mean from your book, I, you know, feel like you're a very
authentic person.
When you said before aboutchange, you know you would have
loved to switch your baby for ahealthy one, whatever I mean, I
was laughing and I had to remindmyself this is not a comedy
book.
Like, don't laugh, you know.
Like when you pass by the babychanging station you're like, oh
, baby, change, I'll change mybaby yeah no-transcript that I
(16:00):
was very frozen and shellshocked.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
Sudden death is very different than illness, so it
was really.
I went through Shiva in shock,but I also went through Shiva
afraid to cry and I wrote it.
I journaled about this in whatbecame the book.
Just like, what kind of motherdoesn't cry?
But I couldn't cry and at onepoint one of my friends said to
me she said something aboutbeing sad and I said no, no, no,
I'm not sad.
I can't do sad.
Sad will break me.
(16:23):
I did angry.
I did angry really well becausethat felt empowering.
I couldn't touch sadness and Iwas afraid that if I start to
cry I won't be able to come out.
I'll touch a sadness that's sodeep because I wrote the book
about losing the babies in Yossi.
But there was a lot of otherthings.
There always is.
When you read a memoir, you'rereading a very what's the word?
Like a pretty focused smallpiece.
(16:43):
You're getting a glimpse, butit's never the whole deal and I
felt like I'd gotten bangedaround so much in life and I
would.
I would start touching thatwell of.
I don't want to saydisappointment, it's too soft.
There's just real, real deepsadness.
I wouldn't come out and I thinksometimes people have that.
So they will look okay, becauseat that moment that's how
they're functioning they'resurviving, or they're not
(17:04):
dealing, or they're just they'regood at it, you know, whatever,
however it is.
But later, after everybody wenthome and some time went by, I
was finally able to cry and ableto deal.
But, yeah, looking okay, I mean, there's a value to it that we
can function.
I also I had to, you know, takecare of my husband.
I had my daughters, so therewere certain things I just had
(17:25):
to do.
And then there was also a senseof obligation to honor Yossi.
At one point during the shiva Ididn't want to come down and I
looked a mess.
And my good friend came up andshe sat with me for a bit and
when I went down she said to meyou know, you may want to just
like straighten up a little bit.
And I'm like I didn't care.
And she said well, it honorsYossi, it's functioning when
we've lost someone and notlosing it completely as a way of
(17:48):
letting them know, also,because it's not good for their
soul when you know we just go topieces completely.
It's not in the beginning.
It doesn't mean we can't grieveor cry, but there is.
I felt it as a mom especially,I felt an obligation to honor
this process.
It was his Shiva and it was, ofcourse, I did grieve very
(18:08):
intensely.
I mean, the book it's a veryhonest book and, yeah, yeah, I
was angry and then when I wasallowed to be sad, I was very
sad.
I mean, when I allowed myselfto be sad, it was there.
But there is also an obligationto neshama.
If we're going to parent, weparent our kids in whatever form
they come, and if they areneshamas, then we just do it
that way.
(18:28):
Whatever form they come, and ifthey are Neshamahs, then we
just do it that way.
I mean, people make all kindsof accommodations that they
never thought they would makefor their children.
So my child was now at aNeshamah level and needed that
from me.
He still does.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
Were you ever afraid that if you look too okay, then
people really are going to thinkyou're okay, and you don't want
people to think that you'refine because you're not fine?
Speaker 3 (18:48):
I don't think I really look too okay.
I think I looked veryfunctional.
People were saying, well, lookat her, she's so strong, cause I
was talking a lot.
I was just telling stories.
But I think, honestly, peoplewere afraid of me because I was
afraid too of it.
I felt like I lost most of mykids.
It's kind of spooky and I thinkthe rage was very, very strong
(19:09):
at one point.
I mean, the book is reallyhonest At one point on Hanukkah
I was with my daughter andsomebody we were in the.
We were in a donut place and theguy just wanted to be nice.
It was, he was closing up.
He had extra donuts, so hewanted to give us some.
So he said to me how manychildren do you have?
Wow, I ran off.
So I think when people spoke tome for even a little while, I
(19:31):
didn't.
People were afraid.
I didn't look so okay, actuallyit was.
You know, it's constantlyevolving.
Grief is so messy and sodifferent for all of us.
I wrote in the book also that Iwent.
I was in New York and I went tosee a woman whose child had
died the same week as mine.
They died a few days apart,also a young man, also sudden
death.
He was hit by what do they callthose things over the water, I
forgot what it's called.
He was going on one of thosespeeds, whatever it was, it was
(19:52):
a water death.
He was hit jet ski, I thinkit's called right.
And he died suddenly.
And she had she had anotherchild at that point.
No, he didn't die, he died umearlier.
She had a child who was sick,who died like.
So she lost two older, two sons, also similar to the age of
yossi, and she was a widow.
Widow and I went to see herbecause I knew her, but not well
.
I knew of her and I was in NewYork and I was going through one
(20:12):
of my poor me I'm really thesaddest woman in the world, kind
of look, and I hadn't sleptwell.
So I showed up at her house inlike a long skirt, like raggedy,
like I didn't care, and I thinkI'd slept in that t-shirt, I
mean mess, and at that point Iwas crying finally.
So my eyes were puffy and Iknock on her door and I look, if
you had to describe what doesin Hebrew, what is Meshachela?
(20:33):
What does a bereaved mom looklike?
There's me, big Nebuch.
I knock on the door and we lostkids the same week.
She opens the door and she looksgorgeous.
I mean, she's just full makeupand she's dressed gorgeous and
I'm just like staring at her andwe talked a lot and one of the
things you know, and her heartwas just as broken.
You know, I mean we don'tmeasure, but I'm saying she, she
(20:53):
was definitely grieving veryintensely, but her approach was
I really don't want peoplelooking at me and saying, oh,
poor her.
It was very important to her.
I was kind of beyond caring atthat point.
But after the meeting Iactually bought lipstick.
I went home and was like youknow what?
Like what am I doing?
You know, it scares everybody,it's scaring myself.
So you know, we're allfunctioning differently and
(21:18):
every day is another story, sowe just do the best we can.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
It's funny when you said I don't know what your
answer was to the donut man whenhe asked how many kids you have
, but like I could relate tothat a lot because I remember
also, like you know, peoplewould say to me like, oh, so
where are you going for Yontif?
And I would be like, oh, I'mgoing to go home.
Oh, no, I can't go home becausemy parents are dead.
Maybe I'll go to my sister.
Oh wait, no, she's also dead,you know.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
And they'd be like, sorry, I asked don't ever ask
anyone that question and Istormed out of the store.
My problem was my daughter waswith me, my 15 year old, and she
was horrified and she's like hejust wanted to give you donuts
it's crazy.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
It's crazy how, like you just don't know what's going
on in people's lives.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
And an innocent question, it's rough it's rough,
but you need to keep humor.
I used to say you know I canhorrify people.
I could say I wish half my kidswere dead.
I wish only half my kids weredead.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
It's a scary thought.
It is so crazy.
Do you ever like with yourbabies?
I'm sure with Jesse you like?
Imagine that.
You know this is the stage inlife he would be at.
Or you see friends of his thatyou know married and have
children?
Speaker 3 (22:32):
no-transcript had to get used to the idea that we
would have this very handicappedchild.
And I remember one of the firstthings I thought when they told
me that they don't know ifhe'll ever walk.
Like they tested his brain andthey saw that he has some
definite cognitive issues andneuromuscular will bring with it
inability to move properly, tothink, to function.
(22:53):
And I remember thinking I'mgoing to have this child like
I'm going to be stuck with himand how am I going to help him?
And my first thought I evensaid it I said what am I going
to do with him when he's 20?
And I said this to a parent whohas handicapped children and
she said to me how about wedon't worry about when he's 20?
, how about we just worry about,like you know, his fluid intake
today and how you're going toget through today?
(23:13):
So it was a very different test.
It was with the babies, whowere busy all the time.
We were constantly meeting withdoctors.
There was a lot of research,there was a lot of ongoing
anxiety.
I would come to the hospitaland every time a doctor would
come near me I would just wantto run, you know, because it was
never good news.
So we lived in a differentstate of very high anxiety.
It was like 100 deaths over andover again.
(23:34):
It wasn't like I had thesedelightful, easy babies in my
house and then lost them.
So the trauma was well, therewas a very big sense of loss
because each one they were sosweet but I didn't know them as
people.
Sadness was more so.
The horror of it.
Going to the hospital wasalways devastating.
They would come and say, oh,the lung collapsed, oh, we're
(23:55):
doing this thing, oh, we need todo a surgery to insert that.
And it was always adeterioration and it was very
draining.
And then there was a lot of theresearch was really involved in
finding out if my other kidsare really healthy, if they
could have healthy kids, if Icould involved in finding out if
my other kids are reallyhealthy, if they could have
healthy kids, if I could.
(24:15):
So it was a different type oftest, a different type of trauma
.
With Yossi it's like we havethis healthy, beautiful, 23 year
old, vibrant, adorable youngman.
I mean, we were so close, hewas so alive and then boom, you
know.
So there was a shock there andthe loss was just so much more
layered.
It's Yossi, it's not a baby,right Right, although I did.
(24:35):
I got attached to my babies alsoin a different way.
I sensed at some point thatthey were more like Neshamas
that were here for a short timeand that there were lessons in
giving and in nurturing and inaccepting.
I really got an awareness ofNeseshamas with my babies.
I began to sense that there'ssomething more here.
It's not a mistake.
Me and my husband, we'rebringing these very fragile
(24:56):
lives in and out of the worldand our job while they're here
is to nurture and to sing shemawith them and to accept that
neshama journeys look howeverthey look, and this is unique to
us, not a mistake.
And to give in that way andalso to accept the size of my
family and I know that fourchildren is a nice family, but
in my mind, remember, I hadthree kids in three years.
(25:18):
My fourth child was born.
The first sick baby was bornwhen Yossi was four.
There were going to be lots andlots of babies.
Yeah, so that was.
It was an adjustment.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
My goodness, I know, I just I, I, I just I can't
imagine.
I don't even know what to say.
But what's mashkela?
What does that mean?
Speaker 3 (25:34):
mashkela just means bereaved mom.
It's a term from chumash right.
It means it means to me italways meant like nebuch, but it
just means a mom whose childrendied.
Where is it used?
Do you know where it's used?
It's used in one of the brachasthat there won't be a mashkela.
And the other way in the, inthe brachas, that there won't be
a Mishakele, and the other wayin the Cholos.
I think it's a Chumash term.
I think it's in Devarim, whereit talks about bereaved parents.
(25:56):
Yeah, that there won't be.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
I remember doing research on it and I have to go
back and reread, but I rememberit seems like there's no word
for it in the English language.
It it's like a like there's noword for it in the English
language Like it seems like it'svery, it's very unique to.
To what?
To a bereaved parent.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Yes, I wrote a poem once about that and I wrote like
there's a word called orphan,right, there's an orphan.
An orphan is someone who lostchildren.
And I wrote well, I'm a napro,I'm backwards, I'm the orphan.
The other way, I'm the momwithout the kids, I'm a napro
and we should have that word.
And I went into that wholething.
But yeah, there really isn't aword in English for a mom
particularly, or a parent wholost a child.
(26:37):
No, no, in Hebrew there is,that's mishkela, but in English
not.
I think when the Kohen Gadoldavened in Yom Kippur, I used to
think about that.
The holiest person is the KohenGadol.
On the holiest day of YomKippur, in the holiest place in
the Qadr Shakedashim.
What was his tefillah?
He davened that a woman notlose her child, not in utero, or
you know just that we're not.
(26:58):
That she not, she not lose herpregnancy.
I mean, that's like thetefillah in that time, that that
was a tefillah really yeah andshalom, but that was the
tefillah.
That's should not lose that,because it's it just rips at the
kishkas of us Like it justtears us apart from the inside.
We're we're wired to want toprotect our kids.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
I know Right, even when a child goes through
something, that's like a littlehard and it's just a little hard
and it's a passing stage andit's like pretty, like
relatively simple.
It's like it's so hard.
Speaker 3 (27:27):
I also think when I say that we're wired for that, I
also think that in a certainsense we, our neshamas, know the
journey.
You know, we know.
I remember when Yossi was bornI was like he made me a mother.
He was my first, and in thedelivery room and I actually
opened the book with that it'sthe beginning of my book I wrote
the first words.
I said, as a mom would don'tdrop him.
(27:49):
And we laughed about that.
And then I wrote how we laughedabout it because it was my
first words as a mother.
I mean, usually when you have ahealthy baby, you say you say
did you count his fingers andtoes?
You say let me see him.
You say isn't he adorable?
You say thank you, god.
You say something else and Isaid don't drop him.
And my husband is a mile, heknows how to hold a baby.
Like where did that come from?
And later I realized and Iwrote this, I wrote that you
(28:11):
know, my soul somehow knew asense that for me and my husband
, like we wouldn't be able tohold on to him.
So I feel like Hashem gives usI don't want to say the ability
or the tools, because it washard and it hurt a lot, but I
feel like at a soul level, at anashram level, we do recognize
(28:32):
the challenges that we head intoand we find the answers that we
need if we're looking for them.
We find the strength withinourselves and we find people in
our lives who are willing to andable to help us through this.
Somehow it's unique to us, it'sour test.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
I was amazed when I read that your husband's a male
for his child's children.
Speaker 3 (28:53):
Yes, Like how.
I think that Nachman has thisunique way of functioning.
He does what he needs to do andhe does what's right, and more
than me.
I tend to be much more mushy inmy personality.
You know he doesn't talk a lot.
I dedicated the book I wrote toNachman.
You know no words, onlyeverything.
And it's a play on words alsobecause I'm the one with all the
(29:14):
words.
Nachman is quieter but so muchmore direct about.
This is what we need to do andhe wanted to.
To him, it felt important.
Did he ask for it or she askedfor it?
Speaker 2 (29:25):
No, she reached out he wouldn't do that.
He asked for it or she askedfor it no she reached out.
Speaker 3 (29:27):
He wouldn't do that, but the point was it felt to him
like Yossi is still somehow inthis picture and we're not
confused about this.
She is not in our family, shehas moved on and that's healthy,
baruch Hashem.
But it was just so strangebecause it's like an almost
daughter-in-law who.
There was no breakup, there wasonly love and acceptance, and
(29:48):
we were thrilled and was soexcited to have her in our
family.
So it's interesting how I wrotethat in the book too, that
Yossi and her and I won't useher name in the book she's the
only name that's not real.
All the other names in the bookare real, except for hers,
because in her time she will.
It's not a secret.
People can look it up, but shewill tell her children or deal
with it when she's ready.
But the point is Yossi and herneeded to meet and they needed
(30:10):
to agree to spend the rest oftheir lives together and that's
it.
And I needed to have an almostdaughter-in-law.
I needed to know that there wassomebody out there who wanted
to marry Yossi and that was it.
That's what we got and I'm gladwe had that.
But yeah, it's definitely outof the ordinary, it's not too
typical.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
What was it like for her like, what was it like for
you to know that she also justlost a huge loss, but but she's
not even sending shiva becausethe loss I mean a few months
later, I don't know, eight weekslater she would have said shiva
, but now she was just a nothingyeah, yeah, nothing.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
I mean we didn't talk a lot about it, shiva, because
it was a sudden death also.
Really, we were all soshell-shocked and we're
processing in the moment andwhen she was there the house was
very full of people so it wasvery intense.
There was not really a chanceto talk properly and I don't
know how much we would have beenable to because of how sudden
it was.
It's like when you're runningfull force somewhere then you
(31:06):
have to make a screeching stop.
There's trauma to that kind ofa stop, so we didn't really talk
in depth.
She came back later to saygoodbye properly and to go to
his grave, which was animportant move later.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
Where did she live?
She lived in New York.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
Yeah, she lived in New York and I wrote about it
during the shiva.
When she came to say goodbyetowards the end of shiva, I
didn't handle it well, I just Iwrote about it.
I had this image of likeeverything unraveling and I just
wanted to like hold on to herand say, it's not fear, I lost,
yossi, I don't want to lose you.
Like just be in my familyanyway, which is so not healthy.
And then I went upstairs andclosed myself in my room and
then my kids showed up.
(31:40):
They wouldn't let me and theyall climbed into my bed with me
and with their shoes and we justheld each other and we just
made fun of all the funny thingspeople said during Shiva and we
just started.
First we were all crying andthen one of my kids made one
comment and another kid madeanother comment and all of a
sudden we're just like in ourbed with our shoes on and
laughing at the absurd thing andcrying.
And if that doesn't sound crazed, it just kind of was.
(32:03):
It was just really crazy.
Crazy is the word.
We didn't know where to putourselves.
So she, she held herself.
Well, she had good support andguidance and I'm I'm grateful
for that Because she left us.
She said goodbye towards theend of Shiva, and then she came
back to do, you know, just aquieter, almost like a closure,
and then that was that and I hadto let her go.
(32:24):
Wow, yeah, she needed to moveon.
She's young, of course.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Yeah, it's like oh, my goodness, yeah.
So can I say something else?
You wrote about Xanax.
You took Xanax.
Speaker 3 (32:39):
I didn't do very well with it.
I took one and couldn't move.
People were well-meaning.
My friend came over with alittle bag of it and then I took
like smaller bits of it.
I started to take it, but verysmall, because the first time I
took it it actually affected meso badly that I actually had
trouble lifting my head.
I guess I'm sensitive or theygave me much too big of a dose.
I hadn't ever taken anythinglike that before, so I didn't
react well.
But then I did take very smallbits of it for a while to sleep.
But we had only a baggie with afew, it wasn't, I didn't have
(33:01):
that many.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
I feel like it's a, it's an important, like message
to put out there.
Like sometimes you needmedicine and it doesn't I mean
not that you have to go tell thewhole world, but it doesn't
have to be this like shamefulsecret.
If you want to share it with asister or a friend or a mother
or whatever, like that's okay,like it's not the end of the
world, cause you need somemedicine for a little bit.
Speaker 3 (33:20):
No, of course not.
That's why it's there.
I mean, like anything, therapyI mean I did EMDR and it was
very helpful for me.
Everybody has what works forthem.
In the immediate aftermath ofhis death I couldn't function, I
couldn't sleep.
So that really did help me.
And then when I ran out of itand I really couldn't sleep, it
became a problem.
It's very common this insomnia,but it's frightening.
(33:40):
I didn't want to becomedependent on drugs, but I also
didn't want to be up all night.
Every night I was eating,through the night I was just.
My mind was going everywhere.
So, like everything, hashemcreated remedies.
They need to be used carefullyand it has to fit the person.
But of course, to me, whateverworks and this did it helped me.
(34:01):
Yeah, it helped me.
I didn't use it a lot, I didn'treact well to it, but of course
I don't see why there would beany kind of a shame to it,
although the truth is, evenlater, when I was going up and
down, up and down and veryemotional, and my friends were
suggesting like a pill, and Isaid why?
And they said, well, to balanceyou out, and I went on, this
(34:24):
whole tirade of I'm not the onethat unbalanced Hashem,
unbalanced my family, you knowdefinitely couldn't do something
.
And it's okay.
It was really.
The book is really the story ofone great big temper tantrum
and then kind of accepting okay,this is it, girl, this is it.
Now what?
What kind of person you want tobe?
You're about to become agrandma.
You want to be the sad, angrygrandma.
No one will help you.
Seriously though I'm laughingabout it but seriously, grief
(34:56):
can really take a bite out ofyou and unless somebody has some
kind of a clinical situationwhere they might need it forever
or whatever, they'll need moreintensive care.
For most of us, I think thatunless there's really really a
chemical issue and a medicalconcern, grief it does.
We weather it and it's okay tohave some support if you need,
and usually I see so many people, I talk to so many people about
(35:16):
it.
They come out stronger, calmer,more aware of the gifts in
their lives.
That's a funny, unexpectedtwist.
But being able to feel deep,deep grief also enables you to
feel deep, deep joy.
I mean you should see me withmy grandkids.
We just have a good time.
I'm so profoundly grateful,right?
So it's okay If you need a lift, if Xanax gets you some sleep
(35:37):
so that you, you know you canfunction during the day.
It's there for a reason, and ifsomebody has like a more
serious depression, that'sanother story.
Very likely the preconditionsor the or the tendency was there
before.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Right, right right.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
But there's a reason for all this.
There's a lot of medical helpout there.
There's a lot of very goodtherapies out there.
Hashem created these remediesand these supports.
Why not Use them if you needthem?
Of course, and I don'tunderstand the shame part.
For me, when I was screamingabout the imbalance, it wasn't
about shame, it was more aboutrage, like Yossi dies and I have
to take pills.
But the answer really was yes.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Who should take them?
He, wow, so can we end off andcan we talk about?
I know you were talking aboutyour workshops earlier and
finding yourself, but you put inthe book about under like the
parasha of Lech Lecha right, andthat we have to journey into
ourselves.
Yes, so can we talk about that?
Speaker 3 (36:31):
So Lech Lecha it's actually my birthday, parasha
and Lech Lecha I wrote about itin the book too.
That was my lesson.
Lech Lecha means go to yourself.
What do you mean?
Go to yourself, you know you gosomewhere else.
So it's really about acceptingyour journey and that Hashem
puts all the signposts and allthe supports that you need for
your neshama path.
And if you allow that Hashemruns the world and that is not a
(36:56):
mistake then you're open to theguideposts.
And I wrote in the book.
During Shiva was a very angrytime for me.
I was like really reacting toeverything, but I was also, at
the same time, rememberingdifferent lessons, and one of
the things I remember somebodysaid to me they made a comment
and it reminded me that I hadlearned once that when you have
a merchant who wants to sellpots and he wants to show
(37:16):
everyone you know how goodquality his pots are.
So he's going to pick a pot andhe's going to bang on it really
hard and it won't break right.
So then people say, oh, that'sa very good pot, but he's not
going to pick a pot that's goingto collapse as soon as he bangs
on it.
He's going to pick thestrongest pot and during Shavuot
I had a reaction to that and Iremember thinking I'm a pot, you
know I'm a boiling pot and Igot very angry.
But I remember thinking butHashem gave me and my husband,
(37:41):
these children who weren't inthis world a long time, and the
babies, and then Yossi Part ofme, my N Shama, accepted and
understands this and it's allset up.
And I remember actually, and we,when Yossi was born, my husband
and I, we took our new baby wasvery exciting and we went to
buy a stroller.
And this was before theinternet, before you could go
(38:02):
looking up ratings.
We didn't know.
So we're talking about, youknow, 38 years ago, 37 years ago
.
So we went to a baby.
You know the store was soexciting and we're looking at
all the different strollers.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
And we didn't know how many years since he was
lifted 30, 37 years?
Speaker 3 (38:16):
Yes, he would have been 37.
Wow, yes, he would have been.
I always mix it up.
He was born 87.
Yeah, so we went to look at allthe strollers and the salesman
there showed us one that he saysis really, really good.
He says and I said but itdoesn't look so strong.
It was like it looked like itwas made out of fabric and I was
.
I wanted something a littlemore sturdy.
(38:37):
He says no, no, this is thestrongest stroller I'll show you
.
And he climbed into it and hesat in it and my husband and I
were so impressed we bought thatstroller and later my husband
was saying I bet you hereinforced it and he uses that
as a gimmick, but the truth is Ithought about that afterwards.
Hashem says you know, I'm givingyou this, I reinforced it.
You're going to be okay,meaning Lech Lecha, go to you.
(38:59):
My journey is mine.
Other people's journeys aretheirs.
We all have, and sometimes Ihear about somebody else going
through something ugly or dark,like a difficulty with a child
or with a addiction or with.
You know all these unspeakablesand no one ever wants to talk
about.
That is a very big reality formany, many families, even in the
from world, even people we knowand that's their journey.
(39:20):
So, whatever a person isbattling, if it's like you know,
grief from loss, or if it'smental illness, or if it's
someone getting hurt by someone,whatever stuff, we are
navigating in this world, lechlecha, that's our neshama work
and Hashem gives us.
This is going to sound big, butit's true.
(39:41):
Hashem gives us what we need tobe able to do what we need to
do.
It doesn't mean it doesn't hurtand it doesn't mean we don't
have setbacks, but Hashem helpsus get to where we can work
through this challenge andactualize really the strength
and the light of our neshama.
It will develop awareness, wedevelop sensitivity, we become
more spiritual, because we reachout to Hashem and we say tell
(40:03):
me the work of today.
And maybe we don't allarticulate it the same way, but
when we're facing somethingdifficult, we don't give up.
We find the resources.
I see people doing that all thetime, stumbling along, figuring
out what they need to do,encouraging others, helping
others so many of them.
You look now after October 7th,and everybody's like a whole
explosion of people who aresuddenly keeping shoppies or
(40:25):
speaking out in such a beautifulway, instead of like crawling
into a corner and saying, forgetit, I've lost too much.
They are shining light, they'regiving strength.
It doesn't mean they're nothurt, but they recognize a soul
potential and a potential tobring down godliness, just to
make this godly, to make this abattle of kuss, and that's lech
(40:46):
lecha, it's the ultimate purposeof anishamah, and people do it.
That's Lech Lecha, it's theultimate purpose of
Anishinaabemowin.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
And people do it.
So how does a person look intothemselves to see where they are
now and what tools they couldfind within themselves to get to
where they have to go?
Speaker 3 (41:01):
So the first thing I would say is very, very slowly,
there's no magic transformationhere.
When I speak, people say thingsto me like oh, you grew up
religious, so you have a strongbackground so you can do it, but
I can't.
People say things to me like,oh, you grew up religious, so
you have a strong background soyou can do it, but I can't.
Or you're so spiritual I hearyou speaking.
You're so spiritual, or you'reso strong I don't know where
they get that from.
Or you're so happy because I'mwearing lipstick, you know, and
people make these assumptionsLike there's a place called
(41:21):
strong or spiritual or happy,and for me it's not like that at
all.
For me it's really minute byminute.
I wake up in the morning and Ithink today I really don't want
to talk, I'm too busy, or it'sMonday, and you know Monday's
hard or whatever situation it is.
And then I realize, okay, sojust say these psukkim, just say
these things, just do thislittle bit, a little bit at a
time.
There's no great clear roadmapthat spells out exactly, other
(41:47):
than the Torah that tells us Iexpect you, as a Jew, to find
Hashem in this world, to dothese mitzvahs, to follow these
halachas, to treat peopleproperly.
But the way to really tune intoour own message is simply
minute by minute, choice bychoice.
I can be poor, me, and I cancry, or I can.
Maybe we do sometimes need tocry, maybe we do sometimes need
(42:08):
to face our feelings.
That's a whole separatediscussion about being authentic
, about what we're feeling, butat the same time, do a little
bit of good.
Learn one little thing, say oneprayer, do one little bit, do
another little bit, because whenwe say I have to become this
great spiritual journeyer, mysoul potential, that's very
scary, that's very overwhelming.
(42:30):
But day by day, minute byminute, from the time we wake up
in the morning, just thedecision to make the day count,
not to let our situations, thefear and the anxiety kind of you
know, bowl us over and reallyto make the time count.
And it's so easy to lose track.
(42:50):
You know I have this.
There was a bakery.
I travel a lot, so it was abakery somewhere on the East
coast that I used to stop inbefore I did a talk whenever I
was in that city and I would sitthere and I was between
breakfast and lunch.
What's the harm?
A coffee, a Danish, and I wouldwork, because I work as a
writer, also for Amis.
I would sit there and one time,I don't know why, they did some
renovations and suddenly theyput up a calorie count next to
the danishes.
(43:11):
I had this, I know I'm tellingyou, chocolate date Danish, and
it wasn't a meal, it was alwaysbetween.
And I'm just stopping by, andwhat's the harm?
How big is it?
It comes on a little plate andthe Danish that I used to have
just in between, just while I'mworking, was over 800 calories
and I always had it, like youknow, with a cappuccino.
Oh, my goodness, like to me.
(43:32):
How many times, without athought, I think what's, what's
the harm?
And you know nothing fits andI'm wondering why there's
nothing fit anymore.
You know what's going on hereand I realized that we're not
aware of how much every littlething counts.
And suddenly, when they'reposting calories, people, really
it's a very smart move, by theway, not for their business, but
for health, you know, because Ijust couldn't order that,
(43:52):
because I know that I have alimited amount of calories that
I can get away with, or forgetit.
But the point was it really mademe aware because I would just
eat it without a thought.
But then suddenly I see it andit's the same thing with that.
We wake up in the morning wethink, okay, it's really going
to matter today If I daven.
It's really going to mattertoday if I daven, it's really
going to matter if I take thatcall from that person who needs
a listening ear.
I could just pretend I didn'tsee it or tell her I have to go.
(44:14):
What difference will it make inthe big 100-year plan?
But the truth is, yes, everycalorie counts, every deed
counts, every word counts, everymitzvah counts.
We're here in this world to dogood, to refine ourselves, to
make a difference, to bring downlight and every action we do.
(44:34):
That is our lech lecha.
And how do we know?
Well, we look where we are, thefamily we're in, the
circumstances we're in.
Hashem sets us up, he places usplunk right there in that path.
Speaker 2 (44:44):
Yeah, but could it ever be that right now I'm just
I'm not going to daven and I'mjust going to accept that for
today this is where I'm holdingand maybe tomorrow I could daven
.
Speaker 3 (44:54):
I feel like we need to go as gently and slowly as we
can If we're feeling like we'regetting bowled over, meaning
it's not an easy time.
A lot of people are dealingwith a lot of anxiety.
Life is busy, so it's not somuch I will daven I won't daven.
It's more the awareness,because that's very individual
and we have to do the best thatwe can in every moment.
(45:16):
But it's the awareness that weare here in this world for a
reason and the lech lecha thatyou were bringing up go to
yourself.
That's the journey in thisworld.
Hashem said here I'm giving youthis set of circumstances.
I'm asking you to stayconnected to me.
I'm asking you not to forgetthat you have an Hashem.
If we're feeling weak or we'refeeling like we're having a hard
(45:37):
time, I've had those days and Imess up.
I have a lazier day or anangrier day or a day when I know
I could have done better and Icould have been more authentic
with people or I could have beenmore spiritual, and I say, okay
, here I am now, this minute,today, or sometimes I'm davening
and the first 30 minutes ofdavening will go and I'm turning
pages and I realize, oh, mygoodness, I haven't paid
(45:58):
attention to a single word, thefirst 30 minutes.
How long do you daven for?
And I do it?
Right, it's long and I'mthinking, my goodness, like I
know that a tefillah withoutkavanah gets stuck.
I know from Tanya that itdoesn't make it up and I think,
okay, but right now, so say thenext pasuk with kavanah, do just
one.
We have to remember that Hashemmade us human beings.
(46:19):
My davening workshop, I do thisthing called my beast and my
flame, and I talk about thestruggle between the part of me
that loves you know thespiritual and feels the
connection, and then the beastthat just wants to think about
food or other things you know,and we go back and forth so much
.
And that is the journey.
Hashem didn't create us allangelic and spiritual.
Hashem created us with twoforces in us the beast and the
(46:42):
flame, the part of it that's,you know, and I actually wrote
it as a poem.
I wrote it for my 10th graderswhen I was teaching high school
and I use it now in my workshopfor adults.
I've adapted it a bit, but thepoint is that is the story of
our lives.
The flame is reaching up.
There's a part of us that wantsmeaning, that craves something
bigger.
In this mess of a world wherethere's so much ugly, we want
something beautiful, we wantlight, we want meaning, we want
(47:04):
to do something, we want toaccomplish.
It's the most important reallyurge that a person has is to
make a difference, not to wastea life.
But then there's the day to daypull of the beast to either the
pleasures of the world or toget caught up in the
(47:24):
distractions and challenges ofthe world.
And I think that minute byminute, we can accomplish just
small things and just theawareness of the struggle, not
to feel like I must be a badperson because I'm struggling.
We're all struggling.
That's why we're here, so torecognize that.
And when we accept that thestruggle is the game, then we
don't act so surprised everytime it's a little difficult,
okay.
Speaker 2 (47:43):
I don't even know what to say.
I mean, I guess you know thatyou're accomplishing your tafkin
in this world.
Speaker 3 (47:48):
I guess you could feel that we all are, we all are
, we all are.
Hashem makes sure of it one wayor the other.
Speaker 2 (47:54):
Right.
But when someone could reallysay this is what I worked on and
this is how far I've come andthis is where I was and this is
where I am today, then they knowthat they're really, really,
really.
You know, not everyone couldsay that, not everyone could
have exact clarity of where theywere and where they are now.
Speaker 3 (48:10):
But the only thing that I have clarity on is that
I'm no longer as angry.
I accept that I am Yossi's momand that he was here for a
purpose, and I am still hismother because Anishinaabemowin
is forever.
But as far as the struggle tostay positive, to stay connected
, to be aware of the spiritualover the immediate physical, to
not get thrown by morechallenges because, believe it
(48:34):
or not, life brings more layersof things that's ongoing.
I have not arrived at a place,not at all.
I'm just aware of the struggle.
It's really just that.
Speaker 2 (48:42):
Okay, I thank you so much for coming on.
Is there any important messagesthat we didn't talk about that
we should before we end?
Speaker 3 (48:49):
Just to remember that Hashem is real and so we learn
about it in theory.
And then these sometimes aShkach HaPrata story will happen
.
I have so many I wrote in thebook, I read a lot of them,
something will happen and I'llbe like wow and I think.
But we know, we know Hashem isreal.
Our Neshamahs are forever.
We're Neshamhamas before wecame in this world.
We're neshamas after we leavethis world.
(49:10):
In this world, the neshamas geta body so we can do some work,
but not to lose sight of that,that Hashem is so close to us
and that we are primarily soulshere for a purpose and to trust,
just to keep that connection.
Speaker 2 (49:25):
Right, oh my gosh, I have so much to say but I'm not
going to.
Okay, oh my gosh, I have somuch to say but I'm not going to
.
Yeah, okay.
So, thank you so so much.
I think that you are going tobe an inspiration to many and I
really appreciate you coming inWith pleasure.
Speaker 1 (49:40):
You've just listened to an episode of the Relief from
Grief podcast with MiriamRiviet, brought to you by Mayrim
.
For more episodes, visit theMayrim website at wwwmayrimorg.
Help us reach more people whomight benefit from this podcast.
If you know someone who couldfind it helpful, please share it
with them.
If you have questions orcomments for the speaker, or if
(50:03):
you'd like to suggest a guestfor the podcast, we'd love to
hear from you.
Email us at relieffromgrief atmayrimorg.
We look forward to having youjoin us in the next episode.
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