March 12, 2025 • 45 mins
When Rabbi Doniel Hexter faced the profound grief of losing his 19-year-old son, he embarked on a quest for solace. His search led him to explore how revered gedolim have historically navigated their losses. Rabbi Hexter delved into a wealth of old letters and writings, uncovering a mosaic of grief and resilience that spanned generations. This research culminated in his book, Voices of Consolation, a compelling anthology that offers a rare glimpse into the personal hardships of our spiritual leaders.
Despite his naturally reserved demeanor, Rabbi Hexter brings these stories to life in his podcast, providing insightful perspectives on using the wisdom of our gedolim as beacons during life’s darkest moments. His approach not only enriches our understanding of their teachings but also helps us understand that we are human and experiencing pain is normal.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the Relief from Grief podcast, hosted by
Mrs Miriam Rebiet and brought toyou by Mayrim.
Mayrim is an organizationdedicated to supporting families
who have experienced the lossof a child.
It was founded by EloiNishmat's, nechama Liba and
Miriam Holman.
Despite her illness, miriamdevoted herself to addressing
(00:22):
the needs of parents andsiblings grappling with the
immense pain of losing a child.
She felt this loss deeply,having experienced it firsthand
when her older sister, nechamaLiba, passed away.
Mehrim continues to uplift andexpand on the work Miriam began,
a mission carried forward byher parents with great
dedication.
(00:43):
If you have any questions orcomments for the speaker, or if
you'd like to suggest a guestfor the podcast, please email us
at relieffromgrief at mayrimorg.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Hi everybody.
Thank you so much for joiningme here today on the Relief From
Grief podcast.
Okay, so today Rabbi DanielHexter is on this podcast.
He is the Skam Minahel ofYeshivas Kochav Yitzhak in
Baltimore known as TI, I think,by many, and also the author of
a very well-received book,voices of Consolation.
(01:21):
So thank you so so much forcoming on, rabbi Hexter, really
really appreciate this, and Iguess if we could start with
your own story of what bringsyou on, Okay, thank you.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
Close to nine years ago, our son David was Nifter
and during the few first fewweeks after his Nifter, like
anyone going through a period ofloss, I was trying to get
Chizuk, get Nechama, and beingthat, I always enjoyed reading
(02:03):
stories about G'daylim, and moreso reading writings about
G'daylim, and more so readingwritings of G'daylim.
I felt a connection by readingletters that G'daylim wrote and
I saw a sefer like a yaka lakachtoiv.
In fact, a friend of mine lentme a sefer, gave me a sefer, a
yaka lakach toiv, where therewas a number of letters of
(02:23):
Tanchumim that was gathered inthat sefer.
Gave me a sefer, a YaakovLekach Toiv, where there was a
number of letters of Tanchumenthat was gathered in that sefer.
And I learned it read it and Igot a lot of chizik and a chamak
from those letters.
I figured if the Mechavar ofthe sefer, malachic put together
those letters, I figured theremust be a lot of other letters
(02:45):
that I could draw chizik from.
And I started looking at somebasic Sfarim that have letters
of G'daylim and I was able tofind many letters from different
G'daylim in numbers in theirown Svarim and basically that's
(03:08):
how it started.
Once I saw one svarim it led meto another svarim whether it's
a Votner svarim, it's a wholesvarim of Mokhtavin, of Katsko,
of Panavishmir has the Sefer ofletters.
(03:29):
There are many others.
Morshach has letters, sniperhas letters.
So those are the basic starts,the basic place where I started
just getting letters and seeingletters.
And you know, as time went on,I asked many others, many other
(03:51):
people that I thought may know,of other letters and slowly but
surely I was able to findletters, not so common letters,
letters that were not so commonand letters from just came up
from different places.
Definitely it was helpful andjust speaking to people and
(04:11):
trying to.
You know, what I foundinteresting was that there's
some people that really theytold me that they really had
letters.
Letters was not that thing andthey really didn't know anything
.
You know where to find them and, uh, some other people who were
more versed in these type ofthings were able to direct me to
letters.
So really that's where itstarted and, um, after just
(04:35):
gathering I thought it might bejust a little small leak, good,
uh, and as time went on I wasable to get over 100 letters and
, uh, it became, I guess, in acertain way, I got tremendous
chizah Just going through thatkufa for the first month and
after that, within that firstyear.
(04:56):
It's a journey and it'ssomething that I think anyone
who has gone through knows thatit's not easy, something that I
think anyone who has gonethrough knows that it's not easy
.
And being able to connect tosomeone or something and draw
his look and draw the tarotperspective is so, so meaningful
and so important.
And it's true, and there'scertain people, certain letters,
(05:19):
certain of them are moreexpressive, lend maybe some
personal aspect to their ownpersonal life in the letters,
and I definitely was able toconnect to a lot of the letters
and it gave me a lot of chizikand I figured that if I was able
to draw some chizik from it, Imight as well put it together
(05:40):
and maybe I could give someothers the chizik, the Nacham
that I was able to get fromthese letters, and I think it
was maybe three years after ourson that was Nifter was able to
put together, was able topublish the Sefer Vayinachim
David.
I remember speaking to RavShimonowitz of Ali's Highest.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Your Sefer Vayinach Highest.
It has these letters in it.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
The Sefer Vayinachim David, which I published six
years ago, is the exact, are theletters that the G'dolim wrote.
It's not a translation, it'sexactly those exact letters.
And I, just a number of yearslater, two, three years after I
(06:30):
published Vayinachim David, Iput out the same for the book A
Voice of Consolation, which is atranslation of Vayinachim David
with a little bit morebackground to the letters.
I figured the English-speakingpublic would appreciate,
probably a picture of the authorof the letter, together with a
little bit more history aboutthe person who wrote the letter,
(06:51):
maybe a little um, able to addsomething about their own life
and how it impacted the letterand what they wrote.
And so some more footnotes,some more, some less from the
hebrew, but it's basically theum, it's from the Hebrew Sefer.
That was a leak of 119 lettersthat I was able to put together.
But, like I start to say, youknow definitely the Hizmet, the
(07:16):
Ayiket I want to be able to giveothers and Baruch Hashem.
The feedback after the Hebrewone was published was tremendous
.
I remember soon after it waspublished I received a phone
call from some in a club withRebis and he was so moved by the
(07:39):
letters, by the safer ideareally, and he sent me some
letters that he had that he wasable to get up, that he knew of.
And as time went on, I receivedphone calls, emails from people
from around the world.
Really, and it's an amazingfeeling to be able to see that I
(07:59):
guess the idea or the physicsthat I was able to get myself
excuse me, the physics that Iwas able to get myself was able
to give part to others and thatwas very, very meaningful.
Like I said, when I originallypublished, when I came up when I
had the idea, I mentioned thatShemana was about Isaiah's and
he was very encouraging and hewas definitely very, very he
(08:21):
liked the idea very much and hereally he put out the same way
in Achim David and he did agreat job.
And once I put that out, mywife asked me if she could only
put it in English.
That would be so, so meaningful, so, so helpful and to that end
, I was able to work on it to beable to put it out in English
(08:45):
and after coming out in English,I found that there are many
people who are, although they're, very familiar with Hebrew when
it's in their own tongue andthey're in English.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
It definitely was able to impact them and be able
to make a real shizik and hamadfor them as well, Do people
connect to the letters that arewritten only to bereaved parents
or do they connect to theletters that are written on
other kinds of deaths also?
Speaker 3 (09:11):
It's a good question.
I found that, you know, soonafter I published the original
Vayinachim David, the firstSefer.
There's a woman who, a woman,called me from Eretz Yisrael and
she said to me to thank me forthe Savior and said she should
know that she was going througha very difficult coup in her
(09:31):
life and she said the Savior ithappened to be she.
I think she also had a loss ofa child, but she said the Savior
had helped her not only to dealwith the loss that she
experienced but also with manyother challenges that she was
facing.
And I which I think does makesense because I think you know,
(09:52):
reading the letters and seeinghow the certain, certain normal
human challenges that we all gothrough and different ways to
approach it and the, or the waythat our G'day ways to approach
it, or the way that our G'daylumapproach it, and the Emunah and
the Chizik that they offer andthe recognition that yes, it's
(10:14):
difficult, yes, it's painful andit's normal to feel that pain
but at the same time that's nota seerah to Emunah and
recognizing that's all for whodoing it all.
I think that very much she wasable to connect to the way she
said it was that it reallyhelped her in many other aspects
(10:38):
in her life and differentchallenges that she was going
through.
I remember a woman calling methis is more directly a loss.
It was soon after COVID.
A woman an older woman, calledme up, came out crying saying
she went through the Savior.
(10:58):
It was soon after it waspublished.
She went through the Savior.
Apparently.
She was very averse and veryfamiliar, able to read the
Hebrew Savior, and she said sheread it.
She was very averse and veryfamiliar, able to read the
Hebrew Sefer and she said sheread it.
She stayed up that night, likefrom cover to cover, she read
the whole thing and it was justso inspiring and not even more
inspiring.
It gave her a tremendous,tremendous schizok.
I think she had an older son, achashra yir, a chashra
(11:19):
tamachachem, that was nifter,and this really gave her a
tremendous boost, a tremendouschizuk.
And knowing that I mean to me,I was so thankful that I was
able to have in some part, somechilek of being able to give
over that chizuk, that nechamathat we all need Sometimes it's,
you know, I think that anyonewho's listening probably can
(11:41):
connect and understand that thebeginning it's a journey in a
certain way and it doesn'talways go so easy and there are
days that are easy, days thatare harder.
But recently someone called me,not so recently, a year or so,
someone called me up fromArtists' Show and the person
saying you know that his wifewas left there and he just has
it next to his bed, saying thathis wife was left there and he
(12:03):
just has it next to his bed.
Every night he reads a letterand it just helps him.
It really helps him deal withthe scooper that he was going
through.
He asked me you know he gotthat was the English one and he
said where can I get the Hebrewone, because my sons all speak
Hebrew.
They don't speak English wherecan I get?
it and he just felt it.
(12:24):
I just you know whatever feelslike I'm able to give over with
these, with the same, with theletters, I think I would like to
.
That's really the goal of beingable to share what I'm give
over.
What I'm saying right now is tobe able to anyone who gets
chizuk and inspiration fromthese, inspiration from the
letters- I would like to be ableto have a chizuk in that.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
So what kind of chizuk do you give yourself when
you're having a hard time andyou know everything about her?
You don't want a letter to giveyou chizuk.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
I would say there's different types of chizuk.
There's different types ofchizuk.
You know, many of us may have afamily member that we're close
to and that family member may bethe person that we turn to for
chizuk.
Many times, as close as we areto our family in this area, we
(13:22):
don't feel comfortablediscussing or we don't feel
comfortable discussing or wedon't feel that they really get
it.
I, personally, I'm blessed withhaving who I I'm.
(13:43):
Yeah, I feel very fortunatethat I have a Rebbein to connect
to, to speak to.
I learned to know Yisrael, as Imentioned, for a good number of
years and my Rebbein therereally had been.
(14:04):
My Rebbein not just for givingshir and the tremendous amkos
and amdis that R Hashem was ableto learn from them, but also
just in and going through lifejust to bring it to life.
I guess you could say Iremember soon after our son.
(14:24):
I believe I have to call myparents.
I called I believe I have tocall my parents.
Plus, I called, I either called.
I believe I called one of myrabbis, where the word got out
to them pretty quickly andwithin the first hour, you know,
in the hospital, which wasdefinitely not easy.
(14:47):
That first, those first moments, those first, you know it
wasn't easy.
Within the first hour I had myrebbe let's see berkowitz
chaginu burger uh, fortunate tobe close to and my I love your
basic burger.
So just within that first hour,having those basic burger.
(15:08):
So just within that first hourhaving those people, my ravayim,
right on my side, my parentsthere.
It was a tremendous chizuk thatI felt, my wife and I felt
having people who turn to beable to speak to who I turn to,
(15:31):
who do I, what others talk to me?
But the person that's able tobe able to speak, it's who I
turn to, who do I, what otherstalk to me, but the person
that's able to have a connectionto a real life person, a person
that understands what you'regoing through, but even greater,
or I wouldn't say greater, butdefinitely a person who is a God
Labateira greater, or Iwouldn't say greater, but
(15:52):
definitely a person who is agadlo batayra has hashkav as a
hashkav, as a taira, and you'refortunate to be able to connect
to such a person.
It's a tremendous, tremendousthing and I, baruch Hashem, like
I said, I turn it to my Rebbeinit's something that I found so,
so meaningful and so atremendous source of chizuk.
Now I would say that connectingto people who have gone through
(16:17):
similar situations is reallyalso a tremendous, tremendous
source of chizuk.
A person who has gone through aloss definitely can connect and
understand what you're goingthrough, but sometimes even a
person who has not gone througha loss but has gone through
challenging times, that's also atremendous source of physics.
(16:40):
So, over the years, meetingpeople, seeing people, talking
to people, hearing from peoplewho have gone through different
challenges, that definitely,knowing that they're there for
you, definitely that you're ableto talk to them, they
understand you, you understandthem that's also a tremendous
source of chizah.
Am I clear?
Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (17:00):
it's interesting because I I know anything, I'm
in grief, anything makes sense,but, um, I hear, I hear a lot
more the opposite that likelosing a child is like the worst
thing possible.
So even if a person wentthrough a challenge, they didn't
go through anything as horribleas this.
So don't like, don't pretendthat you could understand right,
(17:21):
I don't.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
Let's say, as I was saying before, let's say maribay
and uh who, uh, you, eventhough they themselves have not
experienced something of thatnature, but just knowing that
they understand what you'regoing through and knowing that
you're able to turn to them forchizuk and hadrocha, then
(17:43):
they're there for you, theyunderstand you, they're there
for you.
Some chizuk are there for yourdifficult, challenging times.
That itself knowing thatthere's someone that's there for
your difficult, challengingtimes, that itself knowing that
there's someone that's there foryou, they're giving you the
just there as a support, andit's tremendous.
(18:04):
They don't no one's claimingthat they could explain and
understand the whys, and noone's claiming that they could
understand what understand thewhy's, and no one's claiming
that they could understand whatyou're going through.
But I think what we all need toknow is that, aleph, that this
is beyond our understanding, butalso, aleph, that this is
perfect and this is all part ofHashem's master plan.
(18:27):
So I think we put thosetogether, that everything
Hashem's master plan.
So I think we put thosetogether, that everything Hashem
does is perfect.
And we're not going tounderstand in this world right
now why things are the way theyare and I think, living with an
Ashkaf, a person could continueto live life in a very
(18:48):
meaningful, happy, wonderful way.
Could I?
Speaker 2 (18:51):
challenge you on something.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
The aleph that this is perfect and it's the way
Hashem wanted.
Yes, that's aleph.
But being at that point, onlynine years after a child was
nifted, is really like it's soon, Like most people don't get to
that point that I shouldn't saymost people.
I don't know A lot of peopledon't get to that point by nine
years where they could say it'soff, my sham.
(19:14):
I really accept that.
I get that it's perfect.
So my challenge is to so meit's like scary.
My challenge is like like howcould you tell to everyone that
you, how could you explain to usthat you're not just saying it,
but you really feel it and meanit?
Speaker 3 (19:34):
Like it's really part of your life and your psyche
and everything.
I believe that you know.
I think there's a balancebetween living in the past and
moving on.
I think a person that lives,you know we don't come onto
Amunah only when things are allof a sudden difficult.
(19:55):
I mean we don't all of a suddenpreach B'tochen or say Amunah
B'tochen when things are youknow we're nowhere else to turn.
It must be Amunah B'tochen wheneverything's perfect.
I think we all I'm saying tomyself, we all, hopefully are
living an honest life, dabblingevery day.
Turning to our Shavuot, we'retalking to him and throughout
(20:18):
our lives we're hopefullyexercising our Emunah and
B'tachah muscles.
Now, when challenges come ourway, it just means that now we
need to take those uh exercisesthat we've been activating or
working with the last x numberof years and now, um, you know,
(20:41):
uh, it's, it's for real now.
It doesn't mean it's alwayseasy, but it it's.
And it doesn't mean your everyday is going to be perfect and
doesn't mean you're not going tohave certain thoughts and
certain challenges and certainquestions.
But I think at the, at the, atthe bottom or at the base, at
(21:02):
the site of it all this we haveto know.
Enkel Akenu, enka Deneinu,enkema Sheinu.
Everything this is for real andthis is Hashem's plan.
(21:24):
I guess what I'm saying is thatit doesn't mean that it can't be
does not mean a person can'tcry.
It doesn't mean that it can'tbe a person.
It does not mean a person can'tcry.
It doesn't mean a person can'thave difficult days, difficult
weeks, difficult months, but thegoal is to be able to be normal
.
What I mean to say is to moveon and to live like a normal
(21:46):
life, which means not to live,grieving, grieving, grieving,
grieving and continue grieving.
Now it is, there's a certainevery person is different and no
one could claim that no twopeople are alike and everyone
deals with it in a different way.
But I think the goal is that,yes, we remember our child, we
(22:09):
live with, with him in ourhearts and we wish we could see
him in a certain you know again,but we, the goal, I think, is
to be able to continue on, tomove on and to.
Life continues and there's manyaspects, many chapters to our
(22:30):
lives that we have to continuegoing and moving on with.
Moving on does not mean that weforgot the past.
Moving on does not mean that wejust don't know how to deal
with it.
I think that's all part ofdealing with it is moving on.
But at the same time, yes, weremember and yes, we have those
positive memories.
(22:50):
I do think that there's so manypositive memories, you know and
anyone's talking about a childthat was nifty we focus on the
good parts, the positive parts,although our son David was in
special needs and a lot oflimitations and was nonverbal
(23:10):
and was in a wheelchair and wasdue to a lot of different
challenges.
But I think when we think backabout him, we think about a lot
of the happy, fun, good thingsand again, it doesn't mean that
(23:31):
it's okay since he's not here.
Life is miserable and you mustbe a Malafi saying that you have
a Muna.
I don't think so.
I don't think I'm preachinganything very difficult, very
high.
I'm just saying, at a basiclevel I think we all have to.
It's the acceptance that thisis uh, all from hashem and it's
(23:57):
the uh living with the knowledgethat, uh, we don't understand
why and we can't.
We can't understand why, andthe more we try to understand it
, and doesn't we, it's gonna.
There will be things coming upthat will make it difficult at
times here and there, butknowing that this is all from
Hashem, I think that the aside,that's really what it comes down
(24:20):
to.
It comes down to we're notgoing to understand it right now
yet in this world, andultimately it's, it's perfect,
it's Hashem's our plan.
That again, I was saying it overand over, as we see from
letters, from that it's normalto feel pain, it's normal to
feel it's difficult, normal.
(24:41):
That's not a and and someonethat's going to claim that, uh,
you have to live with stark andone of the talking and if you
cry and you, you.
Our goal is not to question whythis happened.
Our goal is to say, okay, if wedon't understand it, but if a
person does have these thoughtsand does have these feelings,
(25:02):
that's part of what we have todeal with.
But I think if we get back to,hopefully, the better times of
understanding it this is allpart of Hashem's master plan I
think we'll have a much easiertime moving on living a
productive, happy, wonderfullife.
I mentioned this before.
(25:23):
I got, a number of years ago, astory.
Maybe, if you want me tomention, I'll mention now, or
I'm indulging too much.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
No, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
There was a person.
There was a person, I think alittle bit before the war maybe.
I seem to remember there was aperson I don't understand, but
he was a child.
I seem to remember there was aperson I don't know his name but
he was a child.
He was part of Yerubias ofChaim Zomfeld and, if I remember
(25:55):
the story correctly, he wasthere on Simcha's territory time
and they were singing, theywere dancing together and the
child came over to Yerubias ofChaim Zomfeld and asked him a
simple question.
He said why do we say him asimple question?
He said why do we sayenkelekenu, enkelenu, enkelekenu
?
Then we say michelekenu,michelekenu, the other way
(26:16):
around, michelekenu and thenenkelekenu.
First goes the question, thengoes the answer.
That was, I think, the basicquestion.
He asked Rabbi Yisrael.
And Rabbi Yisrael told himemotionally, said you, you know,
there are many caves inYerushalayim.
A person can go into the caveand never come out.
(26:36):
So a wise person, when goinginto the cave he would put
markers to know how to.
He puts markers in the cave sohe knows when he walks in he's
able to get out.
So Rabbi Yisrael, that's asuccessful cave-goer, I guess,
knows how to get in and out.
(26:57):
Shubi Yisrael, chaim Zunfeld,told this child.
He said there's going to bemany tkufas in your life and in
order for a person to be able togo through those tkufas, you
have to be able to make throughthose tkufis.
You have to be able to make itclear and make it very solid En
kelekenu, en kadinenu, enkelekenu en k'meshen.
(27:20):
First you have to crystallizethat, you have to make that very
strong.
Then, once you're faced withthose questions, mi kelekenu, mi
shadinenu, okay, mi shadeneinu,okay, it's going to come your
way, you're going to have thosequestions, you're going to have
them, but you already have,you've established en chalakeinu
and it's much easier to dealwith.
So I think that idea, that samemessage of, yes, there's going
(27:44):
to be tkufus, yes, there'll bedays, moments, weeks where we
struggle different ways.
We struggle whatever it mightbe, and there can be a husband
that's having a hard time andthe wife has it easier and the
opposite, and that's, I think,normal.
But just recognizing that we'renot Privy Tacharabar Hu's
(28:12):
master plan yet when the timecomes, we'll be able to get it
all and see it, understand it,and it will make sense.
But right now, in this world aswe see it, we're not going to
understand everything.
We just know everything is witha cheshvin with a cheshvin, and
I think that helps me, on abasic level, be able to live
(28:35):
healthy.
Hopefully.
Is that clear?
Speaker 2 (28:39):
very clear.
I think that I reached out toyou originally, um, because I'm
not sure if it was this story orsomething else, but the story
with rabbi han and wastermanthat he, after his son, rabbi
naftali, was nifter right, isthat her son's?
Speaker 3 (28:54):
name.
Um, okay, I don't think I toldyou the story.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
I'm not familiar with it oh, okay, fine, so we never
talked about it.
I had such a hard time with it.
He said that he like for theseven days of Shabbat he really
cried and cried, and cried.
And then after that he just hegot up and he was like, okay, it
says Zayin Bechi, and I'm donecrying and this is what the
Torah says, if you liveaccording to it and I was like.
Speaker 3 (29:18):
But how can that be?
I can't.
You know, rebuchan was knownnot to be such a maybe, I think,
maybe more.
I don't know if the word'sreserved or maybe not as
emotional and there are maybemuch regas like that, but I
think for most of us, or evenlooking in Svarim, you do see,
(29:40):
not to Ketara wants us to haveemotion.
Torah does say, you see, theRamban says does not mean that
he did not cry.
I mean, you know, we've beenquestioning Hashem's judgment.
The same way, the Ramban writesthat the person, when a close
relative of one goes on a tripsomewhere, there's a lot of
(30:03):
crying just because you'remissing it.
That's normal.
He said the same thing.
When a person is nifter, itdoesn't mean you shouldn't cry.
Of course you're supposed tocry.
I'm a sign.
In the same way, I thinkthere's a Rav Vaz, a Jewish Rav
Vaz, that says there's an autumngudel, apparently a song that's
very strongly opposed to cryingabout, and he writes very
strongly that's, that's not thedirector, that's not the direct,
(30:26):
what's there and that's rambanand maybe other places.
And you see, from throughout,you see, I, you know many good
island who, uh, I'm just sayingmore recent times, I guess,
people maybe we could connect toor in some way, just the name.
(30:50):
The playman, achim the gay rabbi, had two children that were
nifter.
One was born with medicalchallenges and a son of his that
was already older, that wasnever hit by, was a
Nebuchadnezzar.
Eventually he died and duringthat first year he wasn't able
to say his regular shiur.
His regular shiur, he said achumash shiur and then maybe it
(31:14):
was too long, but then he waswritten.
He writes a thing back duringthat first year he just couldn't
say the regular shiur.
I don't think he said okay, Ihave to be back to myself, maybe
a person, certain people.
But I think it's normal tounderstand that for most of us
(31:37):
there's a certain emotion,normal.
But you'll get there, you'llget to be regular back to
yourself.
But it takes time and I thinkit's hard to say okay.
I have heard about certainpeople that they've said they
went from one Surya in Shastrato Surya of Hillel Zareel and
(32:00):
they went back to the regular.
It's hard for me to believethat.
I think there are people whocreated us with human emotion
and we're supposed to feelemotion and we're supposed to
cry and okay, like everything,giving us limits and parameters
how much and hopefully we'reable to.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
I like, though, what Rebetzin Sh Shah this I read in
your book right?
Rebetzin Shah said that it wasvery hard and they had to make a
new start, so that's why theycame to our success.
Speaker 3 (32:30):
Right, right.
So yes, she read Rebetzin Shah,which I was not saying.
I referenced it in the bookPathways to Greatness or
something like that, where theyread about Rebetzin Shah,
pathways to Greatness orsomething like that, where they
write about Rav Shach, and inthat book they write that Rav
Shach said that was the reasonwhy they decided to leave Europe
and that was really their atzalwas because, after they lost
(32:51):
their daughter, which seems tobe the biggest loss in a
person's life they had to makethe decision where to go and
moving, leaving.
She's starting a whole new lifeand she writes she just
couldn't move on.
Now you can ask the samequestion with come on, Reb
Zin-Shach.
Aren't you a Maimon?
Don't you know what HaShem didwas right, Don't you know HaShem
is a Kalyachod, Don't you know?
Hashem expects more from you,but there's a certain human
(33:15):
emotion that it's hard.
So now in her, in their RavShach and Rebbe Zizak 12, okay,
it's right now too difficult inthis, my exit.
Where we are, we need to startnew, we have to start somewhere
else, and that's what they did.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
There's others.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
I mean I see Pesach in the letter.
He writes also, how difficultit was hard, it was hard, it was
difficult.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
Shmuel.
Speaker 3 (33:43):
Brumban.
He lost two children and youknow it wasn't easy and those
coups were not easy.
I mean, I think anyone and I'mjust quoting Yisrael, who, again
(34:04):
, you know, we recognize theGadol as being the Gadol and as
being a tremendous person, butit doesn't mean that they lack
emotion.
That's hard.
I think I may have mentioned toyou and I think that's one of
the letters that many peoplepublished, a letter from the
(34:27):
Rambam.
This letter, the Rambam writingto Rabbeinu Yefes, a Dayan in
Eretz, yisro, and he mentions,apparently Rabbeinu Yefes had a
taina on him, why he didn'trespond to him.
And the Rambam writes you havea t on me, I have a time on you.
Where were you when my fatherwas next to my brother was next
(34:49):
to me?
He seemed to have a time on him, but more so.
The rambam writes it's been uh,eight years, eight years since
my mother.
It was eight years since mybrother drowned.
His brother was in the oceanwith some families who supported
(35:09):
the Rambam and his shipcapsized on the ocean.
He was nifted.
He left over a daughter by theRambam.
He lost all the goods, all thatthe Rambam really was.
He was helped by the Rambam.
He lost all the fire all thegoods, all that.
The Rambam really was selfless.
That was Mepharas the Rambam helost it all.
And Rambam writes it's beeneight years and it's been so
difficult In some Lushim, likethe end of Mishnah.
(35:32):
He writes the first year afterhe felt that he was sick in bed
and before I published the Sefer, I showed this letter to
someone.
He was very, very, he mentionedto you the person was very
opposed to me publishing thisletter so this letter that
(35:53):
Rambam, the letter that Rambamwrites, like I said, the Raman
writes how it was so difficultthe first eight years.
The first year was verydifficult.
He was almost sick of bed.
He said the person mentioned tome he doesn't believe it's the
(36:16):
Raman, he can't be.
The Raman writes that feels so.
Yes, but the Raman had thisfeeling.
It was very painful, verydifficult.
So I told this person the personwas willing to, it was about
the statement was about to bepublished and the person will
pay.
Whatever it costs, he'll paythat it should be published over
this idea of the Rambam.
(36:36):
It can't be the Rambam,whatever the Rambam.
You know the Yiddish, theKibbutz, a person today would
write like that.
So I told him I'll ask my rabbi, I'll ask one of my rabbis,
I'll ask Rabbi Ziv Rukwitz andif he says I shouldn't publish
it, I will not publish it.
So I asked him and he asked mewhere I got the letter from and
(36:56):
he told me I should speak to hisbrother-in-law, inerit Cisrael,
your small son, your doubleKamenetsky.
He spoke to me a little whileafter that, emailed him back and
he said you think the Rambamwas made out of plastic.
He was a human being.
There's emotion, it's normal.
It's very encouraging that,besides the fact that it is the
(37:19):
Rambam from many raias, but justthe fact that it is the Rambam
from many raias, but just thefact that there is a human
aspect to a person no matter howgreat they are, of course, it's
a human being there's emotion.
The fact that it's hard, it'snot a spirit to the person's God
, doesn't mean they're anythingless.
I get tremendous feedback frommany people.
(37:40):
That doesn't mean that our goalis to be able to be in mourning
and grief for many, many years,but the fact that it could
happen.
A person can have a hard time.
We can understand that and wecan relate to it Right.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
So I guess that's one of the points of these podcasts
that people can know if they'regoing through a hard time, even
many years later, like it'sokay, it's normal, like it
doesn't go some better sometimes.
If it's 15 years later andsuddenly you're having a bad day
, for whatever reason, like it'snot crazy, it's just a normal
thing right, like I found itinteresting.
Speaker 3 (38:17):
Recently someone uh reached out to me, someone who I
knew 30 years ago and recently,and he had a daughter that was
nifter 20 or so years ago.
Recently uh reached out to meand he was you know.
He had some questions anddiscussions and for me, in a
(38:37):
certain way, he was it opened myeyes up like, say wait, this
child was nipped 20 years ago.
Like I thought like, just youknow, yeah, the first year, two,
three, four, five.
But it resurfaces in differentways, different kufas, different
emotions, during differentparts of a person's life,
(38:57):
whether it be a chasna, whetherit be an enacle, whether it be
different kufas, and I thinkthat's a normal way of how
things work and it doesn't meanall is lost.
It just means that, okay,that's a certain feeling of
normal feeling that the personhas, and we have to deal with it
(39:19):
and understand that, go back toour recognition of our emotion,
that it's normal and, at thesame time, recognizing that
we're going to be able to getback to our normal way of life
without forgetting the past.
But in a certain way we'll moveon.
But this is all normal.
Speaker 2 (39:40):
My brother was an after at the age of 14 and my
father had a whole like journaldiary I don't know whatever you
want to call it of his likegrief journey and the different
physics that he got, and youknow who he got it from and how
he felt from it, and reading itI find this just like amazing.
I I love reading it, and he wasnifter, my father was nifter 11
years after my brother.
And like suddenly I said 11years isn't even so much like I
(40:04):
wish, like he I mean I wish fora lot of reasons that he didn't
die, but especially like thatlike I would love to like see
the you know continuance of hislike journey, of, of, you know,
the getting better and the hardtimes and the easier times, and
I like suddenly like realizedrecently like I'm really, you
know, missing out by not hearingthe rest of it.
That was just interesting to me.
Speaker 3 (40:26):
They get tremendous, and other people say no, it's
too painful, too hard.
So it's like for me why wouldyou want to have a child?
It's a child.
You connect in a certain way,you see him, you remind yourself
of those wonderful times, thetimes that you were able to be
with him, and others feel likeyou know it brings me to that
(40:47):
difficult, painful state ofnothing.
So is one right, one wrong?
I think it depends.
You know, amongst the DalaiLama there are stories about he
couldn't talk about something.
It was so painful, and we wentto the Lachman Obol and they
asked him why don't you talkabout your own child?
He said I couldn't, it was toohard.
(41:08):
And others are different thanthat.
But I don't think there's oneanswer.
But I think people know twopeople are the same and there's
no right answer.
But I think it's true to saythat some people get having just
as a picture, as an example,that talks to them and it gives
them their, they appreciate,they enjoy that and others too
(41:32):
painful.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
Totally Okay.
I guess I don't know if there'sanything that we didn't talk
about that we should have talkedabout before we end.
Speaker 3 (41:43):
Many times maybe when we hear it there's a Chazal say
if a person sees hardshipscoming upon him, he should look
into his ways, check his ways,he should call the tshuva.
I do think many with a loss, Ithink many of us and maybe I'm
(42:07):
wrong, but I think many all of asudden start being very hard on
themselves or thinking tothemselves okay, why did that
happen?
What did I do wrong?
Why is this shampanishing, thattype of reaction?
And I was.
I quote in the footnote, in theSefer that it was known that
(42:32):
the Chazanish would say that youknow, stipulus said this to a
father after he came to him witha sin like which I am, and then
, after losing a child, which Iactually achieve, and he said
Chazanish would say you know,only Chazanish could say this
(42:54):
that when Chazal say theFashmish from Eissa to say
nowadays, we could know directlywhy this is happening and what
we need to change and what weneed to improve.
We live in a tuba of hesed uponhim where we don't have the
ability to be able to identifyexactly what it is that we have
to improve it.
It's true, generally we comeclose to Tarkash Baruch Hu, but
(43:16):
to know exactly this is this andthis is that.
That's all part of we don'tknow.
The biggest thing is to acceptthat this is from Hashem and I,
the Muna Shalem, will continueto serve Him with my full heart.
Now doesn't mean it will alwaysbe easy, but that's the
greatest thing I think that youcan say is I need Abdu'l-Khaw,
(43:41):
I'm going to do whatever I can,just because whatever happened
doesn't make me any lessdistance from you and anything
is going to bring me closer tobe able to figure it out.
And that's what the sages wouldsay and the yoshe would say,
and others would say that wecan't figure it out and to start
probing and trying to make itlike that would just make things
worse for us.
I think it may resonate andpeople recognizing that that
(44:04):
we're not going to figure outexactly what's going on.
Don't assume that it's becauseyou are a bad person.
I think you should assume thatyou're a very good person and
you've done great things andwonderful things, and it's all
part of becoming great.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
Okay, I think that's a beautiful message.
Thank you so so much.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
We really appreciate you coming in you've just
listened to an episode of theRelief from Grief podcast with
Miriam Riviet, brought to you byMayrim.
For more episodes, visit theMayrim website at wwwmayrimorg.
Help us reach more people whomight benefit from this podcast.
(44:44):
If you know someone who couldfind it helpful, please share it
with them.
If you have questions orcomments for the speaker, or if
you'd like to suggest a guestfor the podcast, we'd love to
hear from you.
Email us at relieffromgrief atmayrimorg.
We look forward to having youjoin us in the next episode.
Welcome to the Relief from Grief podcast, hosted by
Mrs Miriam Rebiet and brought toyou by Mayrim.
Mayrim is an organizationdedicated to supporting families
who have experienced the lossof a child.
It was founded by EloiNishmat's, nechama Liba and
Miriam Holman.
Despite her illness, miriamdevoted herself to addressing
(00:22):
the needs of parents andsiblings grappling with the
immense pain of losing a child.
She felt this loss deeply,having experienced it firsthand
when her older sister, nechamaLiba, passed away.
Mehrim continues to uplift andexpand on the work Miriam began,
a mission carried forward byher parents with great
dedication.
(00:43):
If you have any questions orcomments for the speaker, or if
you'd like to suggest a guestfor the podcast, please email us
at relieffromgrief at mayrimorg.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Hi everybody.
Thank you so much for joiningme here today on the Relief From
Grief podcast.
Okay, so today Rabbi DanielHexter is on this podcast.
He is the Skam Minahel ofYeshivas Kochav Yitzhak in
Baltimore known as TI, I think,by many, and also the author of
a very well-received book,voices of Consolation.
(01:21):
So thank you so so much forcoming on, rabbi Hexter, really
really appreciate this, and Iguess if we could start with
your own story of what bringsyou on, Okay, thank you.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
Close to nine years ago, our son David was Nifter
and during the few first fewweeks after his Nifter, like
anyone going through a period ofloss, I was trying to get
Chizuk, get Nechama, and beingthat, I always enjoyed reading
(02:03):
stories about G'daylim, and moreso reading writings about
G'daylim, and more so readingwritings of G'daylim.
I felt a connection by readingletters that G'daylim wrote and
I saw a sefer like a yaka lakachtoiv.
In fact, a friend of mine lentme a sefer, gave me a sefer, a
yaka lakach toiv, where therewas a number of letters of
(02:23):
Tanchumim that was gathered inthat sefer.
Gave me a sefer, a YaakovLekach Toiv, where there was a
number of letters of Tanchumenthat was gathered in that sefer.
And I learned it read it and Igot a lot of chizik and a chamak
from those letters.
I figured if the Mechavar ofthe sefer, malachic put together
those letters, I figured theremust be a lot of other letters
(02:45):
that I could draw chizik from.
And I started looking at somebasic Sfarim that have letters
of G'daylim and I was able tofind many letters from different
G'daylim in numbers in theirown Svarim and basically that's
(03:08):
how it started.
Once I saw one svarim it led meto another svarim whether it's
a Votner svarim, it's a wholesvarim of Mokhtavin, of Katsko,
of Panavishmir has the Sefer ofletters.
(03:29):
There are many others.
Morshach has letters, sniperhas letters.
So those are the basic starts,the basic place where I started
just getting letters and seeingletters.
And you know, as time went on,I asked many others, many other
(03:51):
people that I thought may know,of other letters and slowly but
surely I was able to findletters, not so common letters,
letters that were not so commonand letters from just came up
from different places.
Definitely it was helpful andjust speaking to people and
(04:11):
trying to.
You know, what I foundinteresting was that there's
some people that really theytold me that they really had
letters.
Letters was not that thing andthey really didn't know anything
.
You know where to find them and, uh, some other people who were
more versed in these type ofthings were able to direct me to
letters.
So really that's where itstarted and, um, after just
(04:35):
gathering I thought it might bejust a little small leak, good,
uh, and as time went on I wasable to get over 100 letters and
, uh, it became, I guess, in acertain way, I got tremendous
chizah Just going through thatkufa for the first month and
after that, within that firstyear.
(04:56):
It's a journey and it'ssomething that I think anyone
who has gone through knows thatit's not easy, something that I
think anyone who has gonethrough knows that it's not easy
.
And being able to connect tosomeone or something and draw
his look and draw the tarotperspective is so, so meaningful
and so important.
And it's true, and there'scertain people, certain letters,
(05:19):
certain of them are moreexpressive, lend maybe some
personal aspect to their ownpersonal life in the letters,
and I definitely was able toconnect to a lot of the letters
and it gave me a lot of chizikand I figured that if I was able
to draw some chizik from it, Imight as well put it together
(05:40):
and maybe I could give someothers the chizik, the Nacham
that I was able to get fromthese letters, and I think it
was maybe three years after ourson that was Nifter was able to
put together, was able topublish the Sefer Vayinachim
David.
I remember speaking to RavShimonowitz of Ali's Highest.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Your Sefer Vayinach Highest.
It has these letters in it.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
The Sefer Vayinachim David, which I published six
years ago, is the exact, are theletters that the G'dolim wrote.
It's not a translation, it'sexactly those exact letters.
And I, just a number of yearslater, two, three years after I
(06:30):
published Vayinachim David, Iput out the same for the book A
Voice of Consolation, which is atranslation of Vayinachim David
with a little bit morebackground to the letters.
I figured the English-speakingpublic would appreciate,
probably a picture of the authorof the letter, together with a
little bit more history aboutthe person who wrote the letter,
(06:51):
maybe a little um, able to addsomething about their own life
and how it impacted the letterand what they wrote.
And so some more footnotes,some more, some less from the
hebrew, but it's basically theum, it's from the Hebrew Sefer.
That was a leak of 119 lettersthat I was able to put together.
But, like I start to say, youknow definitely the Hizmet, the
(07:16):
Ayiket I want to be able to giveothers and Baruch Hashem.
The feedback after the Hebrewone was published was tremendous
.
I remember soon after it waspublished I received a phone
call from some in a club withRebis and he was so moved by the
(07:39):
letters, by the safer ideareally, and he sent me some
letters that he had that he wasable to get up, that he knew of.
And as time went on, I receivedphone calls, emails from people
from around the world.
Really, and it's an amazingfeeling to be able to see that I
(07:59):
guess the idea or the physicsthat I was able to get myself
excuse me, the physics that Iwas able to get myself was able
to give part to others and thatwas very, very meaningful.
Like I said, when I originallypublished, when I came up when I
had the idea, I mentioned thatShemana was about Isaiah's and
he was very encouraging and hewas definitely very, very he
(08:21):
liked the idea very much and hereally he put out the same way
in Achim David and he did agreat job.
And once I put that out, mywife asked me if she could only
put it in English.
That would be so, so meaningful, so, so helpful and to that end
, I was able to work on it to beable to put it out in English
(08:45):
and after coming out in English,I found that there are many
people who are, although they're, very familiar with Hebrew when
it's in their own tongue andthey're in English.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
It definitely was able to impact them and be able
to make a real shizik and hamadfor them as well, Do people
connect to the letters that arewritten only to bereaved parents
or do they connect to theletters that are written on
other kinds of deaths also?
Speaker 3 (09:11):
It's a good question.
I found that, you know, soonafter I published the original
Vayinachim David, the firstSefer.
There's a woman who, a woman,called me from Eretz Yisrael and
she said to me to thank me forthe Savior and said she should
know that she was going througha very difficult coup in her
(09:31):
life and she said the Savior ithappened to be she.
I think she also had a loss ofa child, but she said the Savior
had helped her not only to dealwith the loss that she
experienced but also with manyother challenges that she was
facing.
And I which I think does makesense because I think you know,
(09:52):
reading the letters and seeinghow the certain, certain normal
human challenges that we all gothrough and different ways to
approach it and the, or the waythat our G'day ways to approach
it, or the way that our G'daylumapproach it, and the Emunah and
the Chizik that they offer andthe recognition that yes, it's
(10:14):
difficult, yes, it's painful andit's normal to feel that pain
but at the same time that's nota seerah to Emunah and
recognizing that's all for whodoing it all.
I think that very much she wasable to connect to the way she
said it was that it reallyhelped her in many other aspects
(10:38):
in her life and differentchallenges that she was going
through.
I remember a woman calling methis is more directly a loss.
It was soon after COVID.
A woman an older woman, calledme up, came out crying saying
she went through the Savior.
(10:58):
It was soon after it waspublished.
She went through the Savior.
Apparently.
She was very averse and veryfamiliar, able to read the
Hebrew Savior, and she said sheread it.
She was very averse and veryfamiliar, able to read the
Hebrew Sefer and she said sheread it.
She stayed up that night, likefrom cover to cover, she read
the whole thing and it was justso inspiring and not even more
inspiring.
It gave her a tremendous,tremendous schizok.
I think she had an older son, achashra yir, a chashra
(11:19):
tamachachem, that was nifter,and this really gave her a
tremendous boost, a tremendouschizuk.
And knowing that I mean to me,I was so thankful that I was
able to have in some part, somechilek of being able to give
over that chizuk, that nechamathat we all need Sometimes it's,
you know, I think that anyonewho's listening probably can
(11:41):
connect and understand that thebeginning it's a journey in a
certain way and it doesn'talways go so easy and there are
days that are easy, days thatare harder.
But recently someone called me,not so recently, a year or so,
someone called me up fromArtists' Show and the person
saying you know that his wifewas left there and he just has
it next to his bed, saying thathis wife was left there and he
(12:03):
just has it next to his bed.
Every night he reads a letterand it just helps him.
It really helps him deal withthe scooper that he was going
through.
He asked me you know he gotthat was the English one and he
said where can I get the Hebrewone, because my sons all speak
Hebrew.
They don't speak English wherecan I get?
it and he just felt it.
(12:24):
I just you know whatever feelslike I'm able to give over with
these, with the same, with theletters, I think I would like to
.
That's really the goal of beingable to share what I'm give
over.
What I'm saying right now is tobe able to anyone who gets
chizuk and inspiration fromthese, inspiration from the
letters- I would like to be ableto have a chizuk in that.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
So what kind of chizuk do you give yourself when
you're having a hard time andyou know everything about her?
You don't want a letter to giveyou chizuk.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
I would say there's different types of chizuk.
There's different types ofchizuk.
You know, many of us may have afamily member that we're close
to and that family member may bethe person that we turn to for
chizuk.
Many times, as close as we areto our family in this area, we
(13:22):
don't feel comfortablediscussing or we don't feel
comfortable discussing or wedon't feel that they really get
it.
I, personally, I'm blessed withhaving who I I'm.
(13:43):
Yeah, I feel very fortunatethat I have a Rebbein to connect
to, to speak to.
I learned to know Yisrael, as Imentioned, for a good number of
years and my Rebbein therereally had been.
(14:04):
My Rebbein not just for givingshir and the tremendous amkos
and amdis that R Hashem was ableto learn from them, but also
just in and going through lifejust to bring it to life.
I guess you could say Iremember soon after our son.
(14:24):
I believe I have to call myparents.
I called I believe I have tocall my parents.
Plus, I called, I either called.
I believe I called one of myrabbis, where the word got out
to them pretty quickly andwithin the first hour, you know,
in the hospital, which wasdefinitely not easy.
(14:47):
That first, those first moments, those first, you know it
wasn't easy.
Within the first hour I had myrebbe let's see berkowitz
chaginu burger uh, fortunate tobe close to and my I love your
basic burger.
So just within that first hour,having those basic burger.
(15:08):
So just within that first hourhaving those people, my ravayim,
right on my side, my parentsthere.
It was a tremendous chizuk thatI felt, my wife and I felt
having people who turn to beable to speak to who I turn to,
(15:31):
who do I, what others talk to me?
But the person that's able tobe able to speak, it's who I
turn to, who do I, what otherstalk to me, but the person
that's able to have a connectionto a real life person, a person
that understands what you'regoing through, but even greater,
or I wouldn't say greater, butdefinitely a person who is a God
Labateira greater, or Iwouldn't say greater, but
(15:52):
definitely a person who is agadlo batayra has hashkav as a
hashkav, as a taira, and you'refortunate to be able to connect
to such a person.
It's a tremendous, tremendousthing and I, baruch Hashem, like
I said, I turn it to my Rebbeinit's something that I found so,
so meaningful and so atremendous source of chizuk.
Now I would say that connectingto people who have gone through
(16:17):
similar situations is reallyalso a tremendous, tremendous
source of chizuk.
A person who has gone through aloss definitely can connect and
understand what you're goingthrough, but sometimes even a
person who has not gone througha loss but has gone through
challenging times, that's also atremendous source of physics.
(16:40):
So, over the years, meetingpeople, seeing people, talking
to people, hearing from peoplewho have gone through different
challenges, that definitely,knowing that they're there for
you, definitely that you're ableto talk to them, they
understand you, you understandthem that's also a tremendous
source of chizah.
Am I clear?
Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (17:00):
it's interesting because I I know anything, I'm
in grief, anything makes sense,but, um, I hear, I hear a lot
more the opposite that likelosing a child is like the worst
thing possible.
So even if a person wentthrough a challenge, they didn't
go through anything as horribleas this.
So don't like, don't pretendthat you could understand right,
(17:21):
I don't.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
Let's say, as I was saying before, let's say maribay
and uh who, uh, you, eventhough they themselves have not
experienced something of thatnature, but just knowing that
they understand what you'regoing through and knowing that
you're able to turn to them forchizuk and hadrocha, then
(17:43):
they're there for you, theyunderstand you, they're there
for you.
Some chizuk are there for yourdifficult, challenging times.
That itself knowing thatthere's someone that's there for
your difficult, challengingtimes, that itself knowing that
there's someone that's there foryou, they're giving you the
just there as a support, andit's tremendous.
(18:04):
They don't no one's claimingthat they could explain and
understand the whys, and noone's claiming that they could
understand what understand thewhy's, and no one's claiming
that they could understand whatyou're going through.
But I think what we all need toknow is that, aleph, that this
is beyond our understanding, butalso, aleph, that this is
perfect and this is all part ofHashem's master plan.
(18:27):
So I think we put thosetogether, that everything
Hashem's master plan.
So I think we put thosetogether, that everything Hashem
does is perfect.
And we're not going tounderstand in this world right
now why things are the way theyare and I think, living with an
Ashkaf, a person could continueto live life in a very
(18:48):
meaningful, happy, wonderful way.
Could I?
Speaker 2 (18:51):
challenge you on something.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
The aleph that this is perfect and it's the way
Hashem wanted.
Yes, that's aleph.
But being at that point, onlynine years after a child was
nifted, is really like it's soon, Like most people don't get to
that point that I shouldn't saymost people.
I don't know A lot of peopledon't get to that point by nine
years where they could say it'soff, my sham.
(19:14):
I really accept that.
I get that it's perfect.
So my challenge is to so meit's like scary.
My challenge is like like howcould you tell to everyone that
you, how could you explain to usthat you're not just saying it,
but you really feel it and meanit?
Speaker 3 (19:34):
Like it's really part of your life and your psyche
and everything.
I believe that you know.
I think there's a balancebetween living in the past and
moving on.
I think a person that lives,you know we don't come onto
Amunah only when things are allof a sudden difficult.
(19:55):
I mean we don't all of a suddenpreach B'tochen or say Amunah
B'tochen when things are youknow we're nowhere else to turn.
It must be Amunah B'tochen wheneverything's perfect.
I think we all I'm saying tomyself, we all, hopefully are
living an honest life, dabblingevery day.
Turning to our Shavuot, we'retalking to him and throughout
(20:18):
our lives we're hopefullyexercising our Emunah and
B'tachah muscles.
Now, when challenges come ourway, it just means that now we
need to take those uh exercisesthat we've been activating or
working with the last x numberof years and now, um, you know,
(20:41):
uh, it's, it's for real now.
It doesn't mean it's alwayseasy, but it it's.
And it doesn't mean your everyday is going to be perfect and
doesn't mean you're not going tohave certain thoughts and
certain challenges and certainquestions.
But I think at the, at the, atthe bottom or at the base, at
(21:02):
the site of it all this we haveto know.
Enkel Akenu, enka Deneinu,enkema Sheinu.
Everything this is for real andthis is Hashem's plan.
(21:24):
I guess what I'm saying is thatit doesn't mean that it can't be
does not mean a person can'tcry.
It doesn't mean that it can'tbe a person.
It does not mean a person can'tcry.
It doesn't mean a person can'thave difficult days, difficult
weeks, difficult months, but thegoal is to be able to be normal
.
What I mean to say is to moveon and to live like a normal
(21:46):
life, which means not to live,grieving, grieving, grieving,
grieving and continue grieving.
Now it is, there's a certainevery person is different and no
one could claim that no twopeople are alike and everyone
deals with it in a different way.
But I think the goal is that,yes, we remember our child, we
(22:09):
live with, with him in ourhearts and we wish we could see
him in a certain you know again,but we, the goal, I think, is
to be able to continue on, tomove on and to.
Life continues and there's manyaspects, many chapters to our
(22:30):
lives that we have to continuegoing and moving on with.
Moving on does not mean that weforgot the past.
Moving on does not mean that wejust don't know how to deal
with it.
I think that's all part ofdealing with it is moving on.
But at the same time, yes, weremember and yes, we have those
positive memories.
(22:50):
I do think that there's so manypositive memories, you know and
anyone's talking about a childthat was nifty we focus on the
good parts, the positive parts,although our son David was in
special needs and a lot oflimitations and was nonverbal
(23:10):
and was in a wheelchair and wasdue to a lot of different
challenges.
But I think when we think backabout him, we think about a lot
of the happy, fun, good thingsand again, it doesn't mean that
(23:31):
it's okay since he's not here.
Life is miserable and you mustbe a Malafi saying that you have
a Muna.
I don't think so.
I don't think I'm preachinganything very difficult, very
high.
I'm just saying, at a basiclevel I think we all have to.
It's the acceptance that thisis uh, all from hashem and it's
(23:57):
the uh living with the knowledgethat, uh, we don't understand
why and we can't.
We can't understand why, andthe more we try to understand it
, and doesn't we, it's gonna.
There will be things coming upthat will make it difficult at
times here and there, butknowing that this is all from
Hashem, I think that the aside,that's really what it comes down
(24:20):
to.
It comes down to we're notgoing to understand it right now
yet in this world, andultimately it's, it's perfect,
it's Hashem's our plan.
That again, I was saying it overand over, as we see from
letters, from that it's normalto feel pain, it's normal to
feel it's difficult, normal.
(24:41):
That's not a and and someonethat's going to claim that, uh,
you have to live with stark andone of the talking and if you
cry and you, you.
Our goal is not to question whythis happened.
Our goal is to say, okay, if wedon't understand it, but if a
person does have these thoughtsand does have these feelings,
(25:02):
that's part of what we have todeal with.
But I think if we get back to,hopefully, the better times of
understanding it this is allpart of Hashem's master plan I
think we'll have a much easiertime moving on living a
productive, happy, wonderfullife.
I mentioned this before.
(25:23):
I got, a number of years ago, astory.
Maybe, if you want me tomention, I'll mention now, or
I'm indulging too much.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
No, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
There was a person.
There was a person, I think alittle bit before the war maybe.
I seem to remember there was aperson I don't understand, but
he was a child.
I seem to remember there was aperson I don't know his name but
he was a child.
He was part of Yerubias ofChaim Zomfeld and, if I remember
(25:55):
the story correctly, he wasthere on Simcha's territory time
and they were singing, theywere dancing together and the
child came over to Yerubias ofChaim Zomfeld and asked him a
simple question.
He said why do we say him asimple question?
He said why do we sayenkelekenu, enkelenu, enkelekenu
?
Then we say michelekenu,michelekenu, the other way
(26:16):
around, michelekenu and thenenkelekenu.
First goes the question, thengoes the answer.
That was, I think, the basicquestion.
He asked Rabbi Yisrael.
And Rabbi Yisrael told himemotionally, said you, you know,
there are many caves inYerushalayim.
A person can go into the caveand never come out.
(26:36):
So a wise person, when goinginto the cave he would put
markers to know how to.
He puts markers in the cave sohe knows when he walks in he's
able to get out.
So Rabbi Yisrael, that's asuccessful cave-goer, I guess,
knows how to get in and out.
(26:57):
Shubi Yisrael, chaim Zunfeld,told this child.
He said there's going to bemany tkufas in your life and in
order for a person to be able togo through those tkufas, you
have to be able to make throughthose tkufis.
You have to be able to make itclear and make it very solid En
kelekenu, en kadinenu, enkelekenu en k'meshen.
(27:20):
First you have to crystallizethat, you have to make that very
strong.
Then, once you're faced withthose questions, mi kelekenu, mi
shadinenu, okay, mi shadeneinu,okay, it's going to come your
way, you're going to have thosequestions, you're going to have
them, but you already have,you've established en chalakeinu
and it's much easier to dealwith.
So I think that idea, that samemessage of, yes, there's going
(27:44):
to be tkufus, yes, there'll bedays, moments, weeks where we
struggle different ways.
We struggle whatever it mightbe, and there can be a husband
that's having a hard time andthe wife has it easier and the
opposite, and that's, I think,normal.
But just recognizing that we'renot Privy Tacharabar Hu's
(28:12):
master plan yet when the timecomes, we'll be able to get it
all and see it, understand it,and it will make sense.
But right now, in this world aswe see it, we're not going to
understand everything.
We just know everything is witha cheshvin with a cheshvin, and
I think that helps me, on abasic level, be able to live
(28:35):
healthy.
Hopefully.
Is that clear?
Speaker 2 (28:39):
very clear.
I think that I reached out toyou originally, um, because I'm
not sure if it was this story orsomething else, but the story
with rabbi han and wastermanthat he, after his son, rabbi
naftali, was nifter right, isthat her son's?
Speaker 3 (28:54):
name.
Um, okay, I don't think I toldyou the story.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
I'm not familiar with it oh, okay, fine, so we never
talked about it.
I had such a hard time with it.
He said that he like for theseven days of Shabbat he really
cried and cried, and cried.
And then after that he just hegot up and he was like, okay, it
says Zayin Bechi, and I'm donecrying and this is what the
Torah says, if you liveaccording to it and I was like.
Speaker 3 (29:18):
But how can that be?
I can't.
You know, rebuchan was knownnot to be such a maybe, I think,
maybe more.
I don't know if the word'sreserved or maybe not as
emotional and there are maybemuch regas like that, but I
think for most of us, or evenlooking in Svarim, you do see,
(29:40):
not to Ketara wants us to haveemotion.
Torah does say, you see, theRamban says does not mean that
he did not cry.
I mean, you know, we've beenquestioning Hashem's judgment.
The same way, the Ramban writesthat the person, when a close
relative of one goes on a tripsomewhere, there's a lot of
(30:03):
crying just because you'remissing it.
That's normal.
He said the same thing.
When a person is nifter, itdoesn't mean you shouldn't cry.
Of course you're supposed tocry.
I'm a sign.
In the same way, I thinkthere's a Rav Vaz, a Jewish Rav
Vaz, that says there's an autumngudel, apparently a song that's
very strongly opposed to cryingabout, and he writes very
strongly that's, that's not thedirector, that's not the direct,
(30:26):
what's there and that's rambanand maybe other places.
And you see, from throughout,you see, I, you know many good
island who, uh, I'm just sayingmore recent times, I guess,
people maybe we could connect toor in some way, just the name.
(30:50):
The playman, achim the gay rabbi, had two children that were
nifter.
One was born with medicalchallenges and a son of his that
was already older, that wasnever hit by, was a
Nebuchadnezzar.
Eventually he died and duringthat first year he wasn't able
to say his regular shiur.
His regular shiur, he said achumash shiur and then maybe it
(31:14):
was too long, but then he waswritten.
He writes a thing back duringthat first year he just couldn't
say the regular shiur.
I don't think he said okay, Ihave to be back to myself, maybe
a person, certain people.
But I think it's normal tounderstand that for most of us
(31:37):
there's a certain emotion,normal.
But you'll get there, you'llget to be regular back to
yourself.
But it takes time and I thinkit's hard to say okay.
I have heard about certainpeople that they've said they
went from one Surya in Shastrato Surya of Hillel Zareel and
(32:00):
they went back to the regular.
It's hard for me to believethat.
I think there are people whocreated us with human emotion
and we're supposed to feelemotion and we're supposed to
cry and okay, like everything,giving us limits and parameters
how much and hopefully we'reable to.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
I like, though, what Rebetzin Sh Shah this I read in
your book right?
Rebetzin Shah said that it wasvery hard and they had to make a
new start, so that's why theycame to our success.
Speaker 3 (32:30):
Right, right.
So yes, she read Rebetzin Shah,which I was not saying.
I referenced it in the bookPathways to Greatness or
something like that, where theyread about Rebetzin Shah,
pathways to Greatness orsomething like that, where they
write about Rav Shach, and inthat book they write that Rav
Shach said that was the reasonwhy they decided to leave Europe
and that was really their atzalwas because, after they lost
(32:51):
their daughter, which seems tobe the biggest loss in a
person's life they had to makethe decision where to go and
moving, leaving.
She's starting a whole new lifeand she writes she just
couldn't move on.
Now you can ask the samequestion with come on, Reb
Zin-Shach.
Aren't you a Maimon?
Don't you know what HaShem didwas right, Don't you know HaShem
is a Kalyachod, Don't you know?
Hashem expects more from you,but there's a certain human
(33:15):
emotion that it's hard.
So now in her, in their RavShach and Rebbe Zizak 12, okay,
it's right now too difficult inthis, my exit.
Where we are, we need to startnew, we have to start somewhere
else, and that's what they did.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
There's others.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
I mean I see Pesach in the letter.
He writes also, how difficultit was hard, it was hard, it was
difficult.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
Shmuel.
Speaker 3 (33:43):
Brumban.
He lost two children and youknow it wasn't easy and those
coups were not easy.
I mean, I think anyone and I'mjust quoting Yisrael, who, again
(34:04):
, you know, we recognize theGadol as being the Gadol and as
being a tremendous person, butit doesn't mean that they lack
emotion.
That's hard.
I think I may have mentioned toyou and I think that's one of
the letters that many peoplepublished, a letter from the
(34:27):
Rambam.
This letter, the Rambam writingto Rabbeinu Yefes, a Dayan in
Eretz, yisro, and he mentions,apparently Rabbeinu Yefes had a
taina on him, why he didn'trespond to him.
And the Rambam writes you havea t on me, I have a time on you.
Where were you when my fatherwas next to my brother was next
(34:49):
to me?
He seemed to have a time on him, but more so.
The rambam writes it's been uh,eight years, eight years since
my mother.
It was eight years since mybrother drowned.
His brother was in the oceanwith some families who supported
(35:09):
the Rambam and his shipcapsized on the ocean.
He was nifted.
He left over a daughter by theRambam.
He lost all the goods, all thatthe Rambam really was.
He was helped by the Rambam.
He lost all the fire all thegoods, all that.
The Rambam really was selfless.
That was Mepharas the Rambam helost it all.
And Rambam writes it's beeneight years and it's been so
difficult In some Lushim, likethe end of Mishnah.
(35:32):
He writes the first year afterhe felt that he was sick in bed
and before I published the Sefer, I showed this letter to
someone.
He was very, very, he mentionedto you the person was very
opposed to me publishing thisletter so this letter that
(35:53):
Rambam, the letter that Rambamwrites, like I said, the Raman
writes how it was so difficultthe first eight years.
The first year was verydifficult.
He was almost sick of bed.
He said the person mentioned tome he doesn't believe it's the
(36:16):
Raman, he can't be.
The Raman writes that feels so.
Yes, but the Raman had thisfeeling.
It was very painful, verydifficult.
So I told this person the personwas willing to, it was about
the statement was about to bepublished and the person will
pay.
Whatever it costs, he'll paythat it should be published over
this idea of the Rambam.
(36:36):
It can't be the Rambam,whatever the Rambam.
You know the Yiddish, theKibbutz, a person today would
write like that.
So I told him I'll ask my rabbi, I'll ask one of my rabbis,
I'll ask Rabbi Ziv Rukwitz andif he says I shouldn't publish
it, I will not publish it.
So I asked him and he asked mewhere I got the letter from and
(36:56):
he told me I should speak to hisbrother-in-law, inerit Cisrael,
your small son, your doubleKamenetsky.
He spoke to me a little whileafter that, emailed him back and
he said you think the Rambamwas made out of plastic.
He was a human being.
There's emotion, it's normal.
It's very encouraging that,besides the fact that it is the
(37:19):
Rambam from many raias, but justthe fact that it is the Rambam
from many raias, but just thefact that there is a human
aspect to a person no matter howgreat they are, of course, it's
a human being there's emotion.
The fact that it's hard, it'snot a spirit to the person's God
, doesn't mean they're anythingless.
I get tremendous feedback frommany people.
(37:40):
That doesn't mean that our goalis to be able to be in mourning
and grief for many, many years,but the fact that it could
happen.
A person can have a hard time.
We can understand that and wecan relate to it Right.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
So I guess that's one of the points of these podcasts
that people can know if they'regoing through a hard time, even
many years later, like it'sokay, it's normal, like it
doesn't go some better sometimes.
If it's 15 years later andsuddenly you're having a bad day
, for whatever reason, like it'snot crazy, it's just a normal
thing right, like I found itinteresting.
Speaker 3 (38:17):
Recently someone uh reached out to me, someone who I
knew 30 years ago and recently,and he had a daughter that was
nifter 20 or so years ago.
Recently uh reached out to meand he was you know.
He had some questions anddiscussions and for me, in a
(38:37):
certain way, he was it opened myeyes up like, say wait, this
child was nipped 20 years ago.
Like I thought like, just youknow, yeah, the first year, two,
three, four, five.
But it resurfaces in differentways, different kufas, different
emotions, during differentparts of a person's life,
(38:57):
whether it be a chasna, whetherit be an enacle, whether it be
different kufas, and I thinkthat's a normal way of how
things work and it doesn't meanall is lost.
It just means that, okay,that's a certain feeling of
normal feeling that the personhas, and we have to deal with it
(39:19):
and understand that, go back toour recognition of our emotion,
that it's normal and, at thesame time, recognizing that
we're going to be able to getback to our normal way of life
without forgetting the past.
But in a certain way we'll moveon.
But this is all normal.
Speaker 2 (39:40):
My brother was an after at the age of 14 and my
father had a whole like journaldiary I don't know whatever you
want to call it of his likegrief journey and the different
physics that he got, and youknow who he got it from and how
he felt from it, and reading itI find this just like amazing.
I I love reading it, and he wasnifter, my father was nifter 11
years after my brother.
And like suddenly I said 11years isn't even so much like I
(40:04):
wish, like he I mean I wish fora lot of reasons that he didn't
die, but especially like thatlike I would love to like see
the you know continuance of hislike journey, of, of, you know,
the getting better and the hardtimes and the easier times, and
I like suddenly like realizedrecently like I'm really, you
know, missing out by not hearingthe rest of it.
That was just interesting to me.
Speaker 3 (40:26):
They get tremendous, and other people say no, it's
too painful, too hard.
So it's like for me why wouldyou want to have a child?
It's a child.
You connect in a certain way,you see him, you remind yourself
of those wonderful times, thetimes that you were able to be
with him, and others feel likeyou know it brings me to that
(40:47):
difficult, painful state ofnothing.
So is one right, one wrong?
I think it depends.
You know, amongst the DalaiLama there are stories about he
couldn't talk about something.
It was so painful, and we wentto the Lachman Obol and they
asked him why don't you talkabout your own child?
He said I couldn't, it was toohard.
(41:08):
And others are different thanthat.
But I don't think there's oneanswer.
But I think people know twopeople are the same and there's
no right answer.
But I think it's true to saythat some people get having just
as a picture, as an example,that talks to them and it gives
them their, they appreciate,they enjoy that and others too
(41:32):
painful.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
Totally Okay.
I guess I don't know if there'sanything that we didn't talk
about that we should have talkedabout before we end.
Speaker 3 (41:43):
Many times maybe when we hear it there's a Chazal say
if a person sees hardshipscoming upon him, he should look
into his ways, check his ways,he should call the tshuva.
I do think many with a loss, Ithink many of us and maybe I'm
(42:07):
wrong, but I think many all of asudden start being very hard on
themselves or thinking tothemselves okay, why did that
happen?
What did I do wrong?
Why is this shampanishing, thattype of reaction?
And I was.
I quote in the footnote, in theSefer that it was known that
(42:32):
the Chazanish would say that youknow, stipulus said this to a
father after he came to him witha sin like which I am, and then
, after losing a child, which Iactually achieve, and he said
Chazanish would say you know,only Chazanish could say this
(42:54):
that when Chazal say theFashmish from Eissa to say
nowadays, we could know directlywhy this is happening and what
we need to change and what weneed to improve.
We live in a tuba of hesed uponhim where we don't have the
ability to be able to identifyexactly what it is that we have
to improve it.
It's true, generally we comeclose to Tarkash Baruch Hu, but
(43:16):
to know exactly this is this andthis is that.
That's all part of we don'tknow.
The biggest thing is to acceptthat this is from Hashem and I,
the Muna Shalem, will continueto serve Him with my full heart.
Now doesn't mean it will alwaysbe easy, but that's the
greatest thing I think that youcan say is I need Abdu'l-Khaw,
(43:41):
I'm going to do whatever I can,just because whatever happened
doesn't make me any lessdistance from you and anything
is going to bring me closer tobe able to figure it out.
And that's what the sages wouldsay and the yoshe would say,
and others would say that wecan't figure it out and to start
probing and trying to make itlike that would just make things
worse for us.
I think it may resonate andpeople recognizing that that
(44:04):
we're not going to figure outexactly what's going on.
Don't assume that it's becauseyou are a bad person.
I think you should assume thatyou're a very good person and
you've done great things andwonderful things, and it's all
part of becoming great.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
Okay, I think that's a beautiful message.
Thank you so so much.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
We really appreciate you coming in you've just
listened to an episode of theRelief from Grief podcast with
Miriam Riviet, brought to you byMayrim.
For more episodes, visit theMayrim website at wwwmayrimorg.
Help us reach more people whomight benefit from this podcast.
(44:44):
If you know someone who couldfind it helpful, please share it
with them.
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Email us at relieffromgrief atmayrimorg.
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