September 16, 2025 • 51 mins
Benny Overton and Rosemary Henkel-Rieger share their journey building the Southeast Center for Cooperative Development and explain how cooperative businesses create a democratic alternative to traditional capitalism.
• Origins in labor organizing and union work with UAW and AFL-CIO
• Different types of cooperatives including worker-owned, consumer, and producer co-ops
• Cooperatives address power imbalances structurally rather than just contractually
• Co-op Academy provides training through 10 modules and 6 specialized deep dives
• Biggest challenge is overcoming hierarchical mindsets conditioned by traditional business
• Faith and cooperative values align around interconnectedness and community care
• Innovative housing cooperative model creates permanent affordability through community land trusts
• Cooperative principle of "care for community" naturally extends to environmental sustainability
• Residents democratically control housing decisions unlike traditional public housing
• Worker cooperatives demonstrate viable alternatives to extractive economic systems
Reach out to the Southeast Center for Cooperative Development at www.co-ops-now.org to learn more about starting or supporting cooperatives in your community.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
You have to reach out to your friends who think they
are making it good and get themto understand that they, as well
as you and I, cannot be free inAmerica or anywhere else where
there is capitalism andimperialism, until we can get
(00:24):
people to recognize that theythemselves have to make the
struggle and have to make thefight for freedom every day, in
the year, every year, until theywin it.
Thank, you.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Welcome everyone to today's episode.
We have with us two incrediblyspecial guests.
We have Benny Overton andRosemary Henkel-Rieger.
I said it wrong, even again.
I was trying to think of how Iwas supposed to say it.
Rosemary, could you say yourname again?
Speaker 3 (00:58):
for us.
I'm Rosemary Henkel-Rieger.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Henkel-Rieger.
Okay, thank you so?
Much I've been saying your namewrong for I think the last four
or five years.
Speaker 4 (01:08):
Way to go, george, way to go.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
You both work and really developed the Southeast
Center for CooperativeDevelopments.
We're really wanting to talk toyou both about that work and
where it's sort of headed andeven kind of like maybe a little
more generally, aboutcooperatives, co-ops and the
cooperative economy in general.
With that, I was wondering howdid you two originally find each
(01:33):
other?
How did you two meet?
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Yeah, I had been doing work with the unions,
afl-cio and a group called Jobswith Justice in Dallas, texas,
trying to organize folks andengage church congreg around and
inquiring who's doing similarwork.
And I'd been interested incooperatives but couldn't really
(02:17):
find traction in Dallas.
But I had heard that the yearbefore we moved there was a guy
who had organized a conferencethat attracted like over 200
people and it was around laborand solidarity, economy and
cooperatives.
And so I sought out BennyOverton and was happy to meet
(02:44):
with him and, yeah, we starteddiscussions around how we could,
you know, make co-ops real inTennessee, and I'll let Benny
give his side of the story.
Speaker 5 (02:58):
Well, I was fortunate to have met Rosemary.
I've been working with the UAWyears ago, was a union president
for several years, but prior tothat we had started
self-directed work groups whichempower workers to make
decisions, to control their workspots, their operations,
(03:21):
operations, and I was soimpressed by the impact that it
has on workers and the sense of,I guess, honor and respect, I
guess the valuation of theworker.
To me it was so impressive thatI looked into that form, that
model of organization, more andlearned more about co-ops.
(03:42):
So it was, I guess, that humanaspect of it, as well as the
ability to address theinequality issues, the growing
inequality issues we have herein this country, that made
co-ops even more appealing.
And so, yes, I was definitelyinterested in it.
We had a conference, asRosemary had mentioned, back in
(04:03):
2015, a conference, as Rosemariehad mentioned back in 2015, in
which we discovered that thepeople in Nashville were open to
co-op and co-op development,co-op economics.
Around that time, rosemariecame and she was interested in
organizing and doing somethingin that area and I guess that
was the hand and the additionalinspiration that I needed to go
(04:28):
forward and together we startedthe Southeast Center.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
This is so interesting because you both
have this longstandingrelationship with organized
labor.
I mean, Rosemary, with theAFL-CIO in Dallas, you as the
local 737 president you were.
Even you did work with theNAACP, am I remembering?
Also in Dixon County there is astereotype that unions are in
(04:58):
opposition a little bit tocooperatives.
Is that accurate?
Speaker 5 (05:02):
I don't think so.
I think when you look at theessentially the what we're
trying to achieve, we're verymuch the same.
We just have different avenuesof addressing the issues,
because it's about power andaddressing the power imbalance
that exists between, say, laborand capital labor and those who
(05:24):
are driven more by the profitmotive, and that power imbalance
is addressed through unionswith, basically contractually,
with co-op.
We try to address that powerimbalance structurally because
the organization is structuredto empower and provide equality
to the workers, to our workers.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Is it just typical provide equality to the workers,
to our workers?
Is it just typical?
Because I remember I had, Ihave family members who worked
in factories and my grandfatherworked in factories and there
was a sort of union squashingtechnique that almost like
looked like a cooperative, likeit almost was trying to go like
well, we're democratizing theworkspace by giving you stocks
in the company.
(06:04):
Could you describe how that'sdifferent than the cooperative
movement?
Speaker 5 (06:09):
That's like recognition without power, so
that you get to participate somuch I mean, I guess, somewhat
in the economic fruit, but youhave no power, you have no
control.
But with co-ops you have bothcontrol and, I guess, a share of
the wealth.
So I think the co-op does moreto actually honor the humanity
(06:33):
of the workers and the fullnessof the workers by giving you not
only part of the economic fruitbut an opportunity to bring
your whole self and to expressyour whole self in the workplace
.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
So could we talk about the different types of
co-ops and the ones that you allare kind of the most aggressive
and trying to push for at times?
Maybe that's not even the rightword, aggressive, but could you
lay out sort of the landscapeof the kind of different types
of cooperatives that we oftensee like?
Speaker 3 (07:06):
with the credit union , which is a financial
cooperative, and so they're theconsumers you know are the co-op
(07:29):
members and technically likecontrol a lot at the credit
union, but that you know,sometimes it's straight away
from that.
They're also like utilitycooperatives.
Those are also consumer co-ops.
They're producer cooperativesand people might be familiar
(07:50):
with, like Sunkist and OceanSpray, these brands.
So these are producercooperatives.
They're made up of independentfarmers who've come together and
, you know, pulled theirresources to create like
branding and marketing,distribution channels,
(08:11):
manufacturing or plants, youknow, for the products.
So they do that collectivelyand all benefit from that what
is ace hardware?
Speaker 2 (08:21):
which one is that is it?
How would you describe acehardware?
Speaker 3 (08:25):
that's the one that I usually am the most familiar
with, to like buy their productstogether and that gives them
like an advantage, right, theycan negotiate cheaper contracts
(08:49):
for you know, nails and screwsand ladders and stuff and then
like to brand that under likethe Ace Hardware brand, and so
they can share marketing costsand things like that.
I think Best Western is similarand actually I think some of
the fast food chains, some ofthe franchisees, get together
(09:14):
and form a cooperative and thenthey can like negotiate better
with, like the mothership ofKentucky Fried Chicken or what,
and get better deals.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
I didn't know Kentucky fried chicken was also
a cooperative too.
I'm going to run out today andget more.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
Yeah, it's not the company as a whole but like some
of the franchises like cometogether to do that Wow.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
I've heard.
It seems like cooperatives arealso very resilient structurally
right.
Benny, you're sort of nodding.
Do you want to just respond tothat immediately?
Speaker 5 (09:50):
Well they are, because I think it's because
co-ops tend to place value onpeople and doing what it takes
to preserve people's economicmeans.
So they do a much better job asperhaps sacrificing something
in the way of profits to betterthe workers and the people who
(10:13):
are dependent on the businessfor their sustainability.
And I think that in itselfunleashes people to be more
determined to succeed, and thatdetermination shows up in the
greater operating performanceand I guess in other means as
well.
But they tend to be moreresilient.
I think people have skin in thegame and when you have skin in
(10:35):
the game you tend to take, Iguess, extraordinary means at
times to see to it that itsucceeds.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
Yeah, even structurally, though, though too
right, I'm thinking of thecompany that I'm the saddest
about it going out of businessis Toys R Us.
If I'm remembering correctly,it was a successful business and
it was thriving.
But there were a bunch oftraders who basically found a
way to buy up toys r us stockand then sell it off in pieces
(11:08):
really butchering the economiclanguage here, but it was.
It was basically takenadvantage of by predatory forces
, and a cooperative like wouldmake that incapable of, or it
would make it impossible forsomething like that to take
place, because, particularly ina worker owned cooperative,
right, they just wouldn't sellthemselves off, right.
Speaker 5 (11:29):
To you're not.
One of the principles isautonomy and independence for
co-ops, and so they do not enterinto agreements or arrangements
that would compromise theirautonomy and independence and I
think Joanne Fabrics right nowwould compromise their autonomy
and independence.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
And I think the loss of Joanne Fabrics right now,
that's such a loss.
You know that's a big hell.
That's a big loss Because thesame thing happened to them,
george, with the just selling itoff.
They were a thriving, thrivingbusiness.
They've had up and comingnumbers for a while.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
There's a story that I've heard, also when it comes
to cooperatives, like the sadstory of cooperatives they
become very successful and thenthe members sort of sell off the
cooperative.
Is that an accurate story tosay, like where, like you have
like a very good, like grocerystore, that's worker owned
cooperative, and then, like, allof a sudden somebody wants to
(12:21):
come in and like, purchase it.
Is this an accurate story?
Speaker 3 (12:24):
Yeah, it doesn't happen as much because, just
because the worker owners likeare interested in, you know,
retaining their jobs and havingthose jobs there long term for
their kids, and so it happens.
But I don't know.
I'm trying to think of anexample that I've heard of
(12:45):
recently and I can't.
The other thing that co-ops tryto do when they create their
operating agreement or bylaws isto put in some kind of
dissolution clause that makes itvery unattractive for that to
happen.
And so one way co-ops do thatis to say that, like at the sale
(13:10):
, like no one will benefit fromthe sale but that the proceeds
might go to, like, the USFederation of Worker
Cooperatives or anothernonprofit that like helps the
co-op development.
So that's kind of one way toput in like a poison pill so
(13:32):
people don't get the idea.
Like you know, this would be agood idea.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
That's interesting because I was working with the
Institute for Social Ecology andsome of the members there had
experiences with co-ops and theytalked about them and like that
they had seen so many examplesof cooperatives going the way
that I just described and I likethat you guys are going like,
well, no, it's very small amount.
You haven't even heard ofexamples really like in the real
(13:58):
world.
And then there's even thispoison pill that can be built in
to really protect and make iteven more resilient to sort of
outside forces wanting to comein and exploit.
It is there, uh, so what do youall do as a cooperative
development?
So the southeast center forcooperative developments, sec,
the number four, cd, um, and sowhat do you all do?
Speaker 5 (14:22):
I think a lot of it's .
It's centered on just creatingthe awareness of co-op
principles, teach about businessand help our clients develop
(14:48):
their business model, businessmodel canvas.
Do a feasibility assessment, sowe help with the technical and
financial support basically andprovide financing in some cases
Do we talk more about the co-opacademy.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
So what is that?
What is that several monthprogram will look like?
What do you all do?
Speaker 3 (15:08):
There are 10 modules or classes that Benny and I
teach and he mentioned, like,some of the content that we
offer.
You know it's like talkingabout the.
You know how to build ademocratic culture within the
business.
You know how to create acompelling mission and vision
(15:30):
statement, putting together abusiness model canvas we touch
on.
We touch on kind of work, youknow, thinking through workflow,
finances, of course, all thecomponents they would need to
start up a cooperative business.
And we ask that they're a teamof at least two, because you
(15:52):
can't be a co-op alone, so mightas well start off right when
you're doing the academy.
Yeah, so there are 10 of thoselike modules.
And then we have six deep dives, we call them.
We bring in kind of outsideexperts who like dive a little
deeper into certain subjects.
(16:13):
We just had one this week onfeasibility and then some weeks
are reserved for the students orparticipants to work through a
workbook that we've createdalong with those 10 modules.
If they do the exercises and alot of people are doing this
(16:35):
next to one, two, three otherjobs, and so while they're kind
of working on these exercises,at the end of completing the
workbook they would be ready tomove on to the next step of
potentially like applying forfinancing through our new
(16:56):
Economy of Tennessee fund, whichoffers startup financing for
worker cooperatives.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
So when someone goes through the academy and they
start their cooperative, what'susually the hardest part for
them to sort of like, take in,what's the biggest roadblock
usually?
Speaker 5 (17:14):
I think, in a way from the, because we've been so
conditioned to accept this sortof autocratic view of
organization what we callTaylorism after Fred Taylor, who
considered the father ofscientific management and, I
think, surrendering that mindset, that hierarchy, boss, workers
(17:37):
mindset, and some people come torealize that they are more
comfortable with that mindsetand so that co-op isn't
particularly for them.
They want to be the boss, theyhave a need to be in control and
control over others.
So I think, coming to gripswith the fact that people can
(17:58):
work together without anauthoritarian leader or
authoritarian presence, I thinkit's probably one of the most
challenging things to grapplewith when you are introduced to
co-op and the co-op culture.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
It starts really early.
It seems like, oh, go ahead,Rosemary.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
Yeah, I was just going to say I just pulled up
one of our partners who didoffered one of the deep dives on
conflict resolution, did asurvey with the participants and
I thought it was interestingbecause she asked you know, what
are your obstacles to overcome?
(18:35):
And more than half of the folkssaid fear and self-doubt.
And I think that goes into whatBenny was saying about how
we're conditioned to like and wesee this because we work with
on conversions so alreadyexisting businesses that are
converted to worker ownershipand you know a lot of people
(18:59):
doubt that.
You know workers can run abusiness like you know they're
not that smart and you have tohave an MBA.
Or you know workers can run abusiness Like you know they're
not that smart and you have tohave an MBA.
Or you know I'm the owner andyou know I'm smart and they
don't know what's going on.
So, yeah, I think like that fearand what it too is like,
ingrained in people, like can Ireally do that?
(19:21):
I, you know, I've never run abusiness, or yeah, so we try to
instill, you know,self-confidence and and that
cause we, you know, by trying tocreate a different economy.
We're, you know, I guess we'rethe, the.
What is it?
We're the answer we're waitingfor.
(19:41):
You know, if we don't do it,who will?
So you know a lot of things wehave to take in our own hands
and we might not have liketraditional you know schooling
or education but that doesn'tmean you can't do it.
So just trying to give peoplethat confidence and the skills
and, you know, the support theyneed to start a co-op.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
You gave kind of like you had a.
I saw a glimpse there of alarger vision, the sort of
cooperative economy vision.
Could you describe that alittle bit with what you mean
when you think, when you talkabout cooperatives like we are
the solution that we've beenwaiting for?
Could you lay that out just alittle bit?
Speaker 3 (20:24):
Yeah, I guess it might not be evident to everyone
, but to most people.
Right, the economy doesn't workfor us.
Right, it doesn't work foreveryone.
It works very well for very fewpeople and it doesn't have to
(20:45):
be this way, right?
What is it?
Was it Margaret Thatcher?
Right, who said there is noalternative?
Right, but there are, and wecan start creating those
alternative systems.
We do have to work in the shellof the old right.
(21:06):
We are within capitalism, youknow.
Wish ourselves out of that.
But you know building somethingnew, that a real alternative,
where you know communitiesgovern and answer.
You know the solutions belongto the community.
Around the questions that theeconomy community.
(21:33):
Around the questions that theeconomy asks, right, like if the
economy is the way we, ashumans, use the resources we
have to meet our needs, right.
Then the questions around whatwe produce, how we produce it,
who gets what we produce andwhat is done with the surplus
right, that those questions,then, are answered by the people
(21:54):
who are creating this value.
Right, the workers and thecommunity as part of the
community.
So, and it's done in ademocratic fashion, right.
So everyone, yeah, everyone'svoice needs to be heard.
Speaker 5 (22:26):
Everyone has a vote Right.
One worker, one vote, and yeah.
So that's how we envision, youknow, a new economy.
It can look and will look, sojust a matter of time, thank you
.
We call it democratizingsociety as well, because it's a
great equalizer, and I thinkthis hierarchy that we've been
conditioned to accept andtolerate is the thing that seems
to be a great part of theproblem, not just economically,
but in human terms as well.
So democracy is at the heart ofco-ops, and democracy is what
(22:51):
really brings equality economicequality as well as equality in
human terms and recognizing theworth of labor and the worth of
people and encouraging people tocontribute what they have,
their skills or talents, whatthey have, and work together,
creating this solidarity effort.
(23:15):
And it's a belief in the powerof the solidarity, are you sure?
Speaker 2 (23:17):
because I thought we already lived in a democracy.
But it is interesting.
It's almost like we're seeingmore of uh you all are sort of
talking about thedemocratization of, like the
workplace, right and uh andalmost that the way in which,
like democratization of theeconomy in the workplace feeds
into democratization again atlike the more formal political
(23:37):
structures, because we're seeinghow a very unequal hierarchical
economy can now bleed into anow very, very unequal hierarch,
hierarchical politicalsituation where the votes are
not just one person, one vote.
It's now, you know, largeamounts of money are defining
things.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
Yeah, and it's about, like community controlled
solutions.
You know, if you're talkingpolitically, you know not just
about voting, but you know ifyou're talking politically, you
know not just about voting, butyou know people are creating
like participatory budgetingsystems where the citizens, you
know, get together and decide,like you know, what should our
(24:22):
budget look like?
Or, even further, I know, inNashville I hope it's still
there, but there's a communityoversight board right where,
like citizens, you know, regulareveryday people right, help
make decisions about like whatshould the budget look like
of're buying, right, and so,yeah, to have like these really
(24:45):
community based solutions toproblems, that goes beyond just,
you know, voting warrants in awhile.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
There's a history of cooperatives being these hubs
for political action, moreformal political action too.
Am I right on that?
Speaker 3 (25:07):
People, yeah, like anecdotally I know we've gotten
that question before too likeyou know, is there research that
shows that?
But what anecdotally rightpeople do, you know?
Once they have theself-confidence and see that
it's possible, right, it kind ofspills over into their private
(25:28):
lives.
Speaker 5 (25:29):
So, yeah, we get a chance to actually exercising
(25:52):
and expressing their voice thatcarries over from the workplace
to the larger community.
Could you talk about the Co-opCafe?
Real quick Co-op Cafe.
Part of what we do is try toallow the people within our
co-op network, our ecosystem, tointeract and socialize, and so
(26:12):
part of our co-op cafe isdesigned to do that, to
encourage that socialinteraction and getting to know
each other, because it's allabout collaborating and
communicating and sharing ideas,sharing thoughts and working
together.
So it's not just work, it couldalso be part of our social
(26:33):
lives.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
If you go to the Southeast Center for Cooperative
Development's website, there isa bunch of tabs at the top and
one of them says faith andco-ops.
Yeah, what is the connectionbetween faith and co-ops for?
Speaker 4 (26:47):
you.
Well, it sounds like they had ahacker, George.
I don't know if they meant forthis.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Okay, all right.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
Faith and co-ops.
That project, I guess, has alonger history.
So we've been collaborating withmy partner, disclaimer, yorg
Rieger, and the Wenlin CookProgram in Religion and Justice
and for many years kind oflooking at, you know, power of
(27:17):
the economy, labor and how faith, you know, is shaped by that,
how faith can shape and doesshape uh economics and labor and
um, so so that's been a a topicthat york and I have uh talk
(27:37):
about a lot and um and.
But you know, especially in thesouth, where um, faith is like a
um, a column or a support right, A big support in people's
lives, that you know laborleaders and other folks who were
(27:57):
working on projects that thinkabout creating better workplaces
(28:24):
.
And we did a study for, oh, wasit like 18 months or so?
And we interviewed people whohad been doing work around
co-opshart and other people andcreated a toolkit for people of
faith who are interested inthinking about this more that
the theologians put together forus and pastors.
(28:45):
And we have a section ofexplaining cooperatives and how
(29:15):
they function and a section twoof where we were thinking about
what could this look like forchurches, how can people of
faith become engaged in creatingcooperatives?
Speaker 4 (29:32):
The South often gets like a bad rap from the North
for not necessarily being thebest place to organize or the
place where people are trying toorganize.
There's a meme that goes aroundsocial media.
It's an image of the Simpsons.
Uh, bus drivers driving the bussays don't make me tap the sign
.
And then it jumps to what thesign says.
(29:53):
You could basically putanything there, but the one that
is my favorite is the South isfull of good people that are on
your side that are held back bygerrymandering,
disenfranchisement andregressive policies.
You work in Nashville, you workin Tennessee, you work in the
southeast.
How does the regional contextand you mentioned that faith is
a huge pillar in the south howdoes that context influence
(30:15):
y'all's approach to cooperativedevelopment?
Speaker 5 (30:18):
I think there's a great deal that we have
paralleled with the church andthe Christian movement.
Once people are aware of justwhat co-ops are about, or what
co-op developers envision, orwhat we as co-op participants,
the future that we envision, Ithink, is very much in parallel
(30:38):
there, because what we see isthis I guess the church would
call it brotherhood but it'sthis connectiveness and this
realization that we are trulyinterconnected and that what
happens to one of us impacts usall, and I think it goes to.
I used the example in class ofAbraham Maslow, who was a
(30:59):
psychologist who talks about theneeds that motivates our
behavior, and we went from, youknow, some of the basic
physiological needs up to thesecurity needs, actualization
needs, and it went to thehighest level, which in his
latter years he determined waswhat he called transcendence,
(31:21):
which is a need that I guessreveals that there's a part of
us that extend the I.
You know, we transcend self andwe recognize how interconnected
we are, which is what heexpressed as the highest need.
And so it's thatinterconnectedness and what we
(31:43):
call the solidarity economy, thefact that we can work together
and achieve and build that newworld that we are envisioning or
that we should be envisioning.
I think I think that'ssomething that we very much have
in common with the church andthe church teachings.
I think that thenon-hierarchical means of
interacting as people, be itorganizationally or informally,
(32:05):
I think that's more in keepingwith the Christian values of the
teachings of Christ.
So I think we have a lot incommon and I think once people
really get to see the values andprinciples that guide co-ops,
those with Christian beliefs, Ithink they see that connection
or see that parallelism.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
It's interesting, like so many people, like Maslow
, like all these others, likeMarx talking about species as
being religion, talking about,you know, the beloved community
and all these different waysthey're all trying to speak to,
this way in which, like we'renot just individuals trying to
increase our own equity, butlike we are these social
creatures that are free andproductive and engage in work
(32:49):
and labor and so much, and itseems like the cooperative
effort and the cooperativeeconomy and the movement is
really trying to help usremember that almost, because
you guys both talked about theways in which we've been
habituated in so many you know,in school and society, in so
many ways to just sort of likeget towards an autocratic sort
of mindset where you know we areworkers ordered around by a
(33:12):
boss and an owner, um, and tosort of like almost, uh,
deprogram.
It's almost like you guys aredoing like deprogramming work as
if, like everyone, has been ina cult for a really long time
yeah and, uh, you're trying toget to them to remember their
essential humanity.
in some ways it's a veryreligious activity, almost.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
Yeah, or just make people realize it's not a
disconnect, like churches onSunday and maybe Wednesday
evenings, but it should be apart of your whole life, right,
and that you're a worker.
I think a lot of people don'trealize that and bring the two
together, like you know, anddoes our economy, or does you
(33:58):
know, capitalism?
You know, is it in line with myChristian or my faith values?
And I think if people reallythought about that, they come to
the conclusion that no, yeah,and you know, can we change that
(34:20):
and what can we do?
Speaker 2 (34:22):
And so yeah, for those who want to learn more
about that, there's the Biblestudy that you described already
, that sort of like walks acongregation through these sort
of questions about, like whatdoes the solidarity economy sort
of do, and then you have even alovely little breakout session
what can churches do, which Ithink is a fascinating list as
well.
There is you have a newinitiative, or it's not really.
(34:45):
I wouldn't.
I don't want to say it's new,but could you all talk about the
Nashville's first publiclyfunded cooperative housing
development that you all havebeen working on?
You start about like maybe whatis it, and then what was the
genesis of this, and then youknow what's the future of it.
Could you answer that sort ofthose three part questions?
Speaker 3 (35:06):
Yeah, I'll let Benny answer that.
He was a major force behind it.
Speaker 5 (35:13):
I think at the core we realized that we can do
something about theaffordability of housing.
And it started because a groupthat we had worked with called
Workers' Dignity had somemembers who were facing
displacement, imminentdisplacement, and so, as part of
(35:33):
the, I guess, thegentrification that was
happening here in Nashville, itwas causing real harm to people,
immediate harm to people, andthey came to us looking, seeing
if we could assist, and so wesuggested or we delved into
possible solutions and one ofthe things that was brought to
(35:54):
our attention by our friends atVanderbilt Law Center.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
They're not all bad people.
Speaker 5 (36:03):
Oh no, no.
They were a great help becausethey pointed out the structure
of the limited equity co-op thatcould provide, in a sense,
permanent affordability forhousing, promoted, advocated,
advocated it with the mayor'soffice and people in housing,
(36:30):
which led to eventually anopportunity through the Barnes
Fund, which is the local housingfund, to try the model.
Let's do a demonstrationproject.
So we have an opportunity to dothat.
We're doing that now so that wecan demonstrate the, I guess,
the viability of affordablehousing through co-ops.
(36:51):
And one of our hopes was thatif we could receive some land
and we was hoping we couldconvince some of the churches
who have a mission of affordablehousing to maybe repurpose some
land so that we could develophousing cooperatives that would
provide permanently affordablehousing for the citizens.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Wow, so residents don't pay rent.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
No, they pay a monthly carrying charge which
would cover their fair share ofthe mortgage cover, you know,
their fair share of the mortgageinsurance taxes.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Property management a reserve fund, you know, in case
the roof starts leaking.
So it is yeah, so there aremonthly charges, and that goes
into also the joint ownershipright as well.
Speaker 5 (37:49):
Well, yeah, the residents jointly own um the
cooperative.
The cooperative, the, thebusiness entity owns the
property.
Yeah, uh, they lease the landfrom community land trust.
Uh, the community land trust isthere to ensure that the terms
of affordability are permanentlymaintained.
But the residents, they areowners, share owners of the
(38:14):
cooperative.
The cooperative owns theproperty.
But what we take out, what youtake away, is the profit motive,
this nonprofit, and instead ofthe profit being siphoned out
for the typical landlord, theprofits is used or the surplus
is used for the continuation ofthe maintenance of the property,
(38:37):
any upgrades and things of thatnature.
There's a modest equity bill,but it's very modest.
It's very modest and you try tokeep it so that it doesn't
exceed the growth in income.
Because that's where theproblem starts when the
valuation of the propertyexceeds the growth in income,
(38:57):
then people can no longer affordit.
So if you keep it pegged,almost indexed, to something at
or below the growth in income,then it would be permanently
affordable.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
I feel like, if I went through the co-op academy,
my problem would not be I don'thave enough confidence, or I
need to relearn what it is to bedemocratic, but it would almost
be like my brain shuts off assoon as you start using economic
language.
But what you're describing is,though, is incredibly radical
(39:28):
thing that you all put together,because you're really reminding
people that you're socializingthings again.
Well, you're putting peopleover profits.
Speaker 5 (39:38):
Yes, yeah, planet over profits.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
I've written that on a sign before Benny and I feel
like it didn't do a lot, but Ifeel like you guys are
legitimately generating that inthe material world.
It's fascinating to me.
Well, yeah, describe for thosewho don't know, a community land
trust.
So what is that?
Speaker 5 (39:59):
Again, that's another nonprofit entity that exists
just to hold titles of land.
It provides a very, verylow-cost lease of the land to
the housing cooperative and it'sthere basically as an oversight
, to ensure that the land isbeing used for affordable
(40:20):
housing, so that you don't fearmarket forces that come in and
offer these exorbitant pricesfor the property that you can't
resist, and so you end upselling out and the people end
up being displaced.
So the land trust is there tohold the land and lease the land
(40:41):
on the terms that affordabilityis preserved, and if you do
something to attempt to dishonoror violate the terms of
affordability, then you violatethe terms of the lease and you
could lose the leasehold andthus lose the property.
So it's there to ensure thatthe permanence of the
(41:03):
affordability is preserved.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
So what I'm hearing is oh, go ahead, sorry is
preserved.
Speaker 3 (41:08):
So what I'm hearing is oh, go ahead.
Sorry I was going to say.
What's also interesting aboutcommunity land trust is the
board is made up of theresidents from the cooperative
residents that live in the areabut aren't members of the
cooperative, just communityfolks, and then stakeholders,
kind of like just communityfolks, and then stakeholders,
(41:32):
kind of like you know, co-op,development center or other
entities that like work aroundaffordable housing, and so you
have this tripartite board sothat, like, everyone's interests
are there at the table.
Speaker 4 (41:44):
Is there any difference at all between sort
of what you guys are describingthat this community land trust,
and this sort of communalownership of the building itself
, in comparison to maybe likecity, affordable housing
projects?
Because you're both talkingabout affordable housing, but
I'm pretty sure they'redifferent.
And there's some keydifferences there, and could you
(42:06):
just sort of flesh that out alittle bit for our audience?
Speaker 5 (42:09):
I think one of the great differences again, just
like with worker cost, comesthrough control, where the
people, actually the residents,are the ones who make the
decisions through the board,through their board, make
decisions about what happensthere at the property.
So they have a very large stakein how they build and shape
(42:32):
their community.
So they are empowered toestablish the culture and the
form and the interaction thatgoes on in their community.
Speaker 3 (42:41):
Yeah, so they really shape it Like it's.
You know they set the houserules and the policies.
They elect their board, youknow they put their budget
together and decide, you know,will the monthly charges go up
this year, you know, or becauseyou know they've all decided
(43:02):
they want to put in a playgroundor something, and so yeah, so
those decisions are made by theresidents.
And I think in public housingyeah, I don't think that's the
case it's probably where, youknow, some other entity,
government entity you know,makes all those decisions.
Speaker 4 (43:23):
Well, often, I think, the city is the one that owns
the property in those situationsas well, and so really it's
just like a rental cap or rentrestriction, where the members
who live there maybe are not,they don't actually have an
ownership stake at all andthey're not, you know,
contributing to communalownership as well.
Speaker 5 (43:41):
And I think it goes to that that again with work in
co-ops that when you haveinvolvement, real involvement,
you have a greater level ofcommitment, and it's that
commitment that really makes thedifference.
Speaker 2 (43:53):
It also seems like I heard another poison pill that
was sort of built in as well,right that if they make the
space unaffordable, they're sortof like losing their capacity
to access the space again right.
So it almost sounds likeSoutheast Center for Cooperative
Development is in the businessof generating poison pills.
(44:14):
But I'm wondering at WendellCook we also focus on ecological
issues.
I'm fascinated by co-ops in theways that they address
ecological concerns and theecological crisis.
I understand the ways in whicha co-op and it almost seems like
(44:37):
built into the structure thatco-ops are infrastructurally
incapable almost of exploitingworkers, because the workers
would have to be exploitingthemselves, which seems to be an
oxymoron in this situation.
Right will also not exploit theland or nature in general.
However we define that, becausethere's sort of an idea in
(45:10):
Wendell and Cook that we assumethat what exploits labor is the
same force that exploits nature.
And it seems like cooperativesreally attack head force, the
forces that attack workers likereally attack head force, the
forces that attack workers.
And I'm just wondering can youdraw the line and help me
(45:31):
understand how those samestructures, that same
infrastructure that a co-op has,addresses the exploitation of
ecology or does it?
Speaker 3 (45:36):
Yeah, I think it goes , you know, back to the
principles.
So cooperatives are, you know,principles-based businesses.
And principle seven is care forthe community.
And so you know that's a bigone that a lot of worker co-ops
you know think about.
(45:56):
And housing co-ops, you know,can we put solar panels on our
housing co-op, can we, you know,put in an energy efficient HVAC
, like it's part of the DNAright To keep thinking about
those things?
And in worker cooperatives, youknow, it's anywhere from like
(46:21):
that, being their valueproposition, like creating a
co-op to help, like restaurants,use their food waste right and
composted.
And we work closely with Co-opCincy.
It's a development center inCincinnati, ohio, and they've
one of their first cooperativeswas one called Sustainergy.
(46:44):
So it's they do insulation andlike energy efficiency for homes
and solar panel installationwith their day-to-day operations
, to actually starting a co-opthat does that full-time, whose
(47:09):
mission it is to help withsustainability.
Speaker 5 (47:20):
And I think also that it goes to, I guess, what we
said earlier about ourrealization of our connectedness
and that principle sevenconcern for community
connectedness.
In that principle seven,concern for community, it
recognizes that we are connectednot just to the community but
to the planet as well.
So part of that is is, as again, as part of our true reality.
Our true nature is ourconnectedness with with all, be
it people or planet or a moregeneral community has anybody
(47:42):
ever built in a poison pill forfollowing principle seven?
I don't think that is as robustas what we do for, I guess,
protecting the organizationitself.
I think it's more in terms ofour values and trying to instill
that value.
Speaker 2 (48:00):
Yeah, rosemary, were you thinking more, or was that?
Speaker 3 (48:03):
Yeah, was just thinking too like, since we're,
you know, working on, you know,concrete alternatives to our
extractive and exploitativecapitalist system, like it's.
It's part of that thinking toolike, if you know, if
traditional capitalist companies, you know, produce whatever in
(48:28):
this way, like we don't want todo it that way, right, we don't
want to exploit workers, and youknow and you think about the
whole supply chain and so youknow we want to do it
differently.
Like you know, fair tradecoffee.
So some of the earliestcooperatives, like modern
(48:52):
cooperatives, were like these,these coffee cooperatives.
Like buyers, you know, gettingtogether, working with, with
coffee growers and other partsof the world, you know helping
them like grow it sustainablyand and then importing that and
using that.
So it's kind of, yeah, likebuilding this circular economy.
(49:14):
One good example are theindustrial's created and using
that waste, for example, tostuff upholstery.
So, yeah, there's no waste andyou can use this in a circular
(49:43):
fashion that reduces waste,reduces pollution and all of
that.
Speaker 2 (49:49):
Thank you both so much.
If people wanted to learn moreabout cooperatives and the
Southeast Center, where wouldyou send them or what would you
tell them to go to?
Speaker 3 (49:59):
Check out our website at wwwcoopsnoworg, and coops is
hyphenated.
Speaker 2 (50:07):
Thank you so much, so we like to end each interview
with what makes you angry todayand what gives you hope today.
Speaker 3 (50:16):
We look at anger as fascist regime.
That pretty much tops it topsthe charts yeah, that pretty
much tops it.
Speaker 5 (50:28):
Yeah, tops the charts .
Yeah, the surprising level oftolerance for this autocracy,
this that's now empowered.
Speaker 2 (50:31):
So yeah, that's and then, what gives you, uh, the
most hope today?
Speaker 3 (50:35):
we just got off a call before this with a new
co-op and, out in rural WestTennessee, three
African-American women who arestarting a home care cooperative
.
Speaker 5 (50:48):
So that's exciting.
Yeah, it gives me hope thatdemocracy will prevail in many
functions, in many ways, soeconomically, perhaps even
politically.
Speaker 2 (51:00):
Thank you both for being with us today.
Speaker 3 (51:03):
Thanks for having us.
Speaker 5 (51:05):
Thank you both for being with us today.
Thanks for having us.
Thank you, George.
You have to reach out to your friends who think they
are making it good and get themto understand that they, as well
as you and I, cannot be free inAmerica or anywhere else where
there is capitalism andimperialism, until we can get
(00:24):
people to recognize that theythemselves have to make the
struggle and have to make thefight for freedom every day, in
the year, every year, until theywin it.
Thank, you.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Welcome everyone to today's episode.
We have with us two incrediblyspecial guests.
We have Benny Overton andRosemary Henkel-Rieger.
I said it wrong, even again.
I was trying to think of how Iwas supposed to say it.
Rosemary, could you say yourname again?
Speaker 3 (00:58):
for us.
I'm Rosemary Henkel-Rieger.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Henkel-Rieger.
Okay, thank you so?
Much I've been saying your namewrong for I think the last four
or five years.
Speaker 4 (01:08):
Way to go, george, way to go.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
You both work and really developed the Southeast
Center for CooperativeDevelopments.
We're really wanting to talk toyou both about that work and
where it's sort of headed andeven kind of like maybe a little
more generally, aboutcooperatives, co-ops and the
cooperative economy in general.
With that, I was wondering howdid you two originally find each
(01:33):
other?
How did you two meet?
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Yeah, I had been doing work with the unions,
afl-cio and a group called Jobswith Justice in Dallas, texas,
trying to organize folks andengage church congreg around and
inquiring who's doing similarwork.
And I'd been interested incooperatives but couldn't really
(02:17):
find traction in Dallas.
But I had heard that the yearbefore we moved there was a guy
who had organized a conferencethat attracted like over 200
people and it was around laborand solidarity, economy and
cooperatives.
And so I sought out BennyOverton and was happy to meet
(02:44):
with him and, yeah, we starteddiscussions around how we could,
you know, make co-ops real inTennessee, and I'll let Benny
give his side of the story.
Speaker 5 (02:58):
Well, I was fortunate to have met Rosemary.
I've been working with the UAWyears ago, was a union president
for several years, but prior tothat we had started
self-directed work groups whichempower workers to make
decisions, to control their workspots, their operations,
(03:21):
operations, and I was soimpressed by the impact that it
has on workers and the sense of,I guess, honor and respect, I
guess the valuation of theworker.
To me it was so impressive thatI looked into that form, that
model of organization, more andlearned more about co-ops.
(03:42):
So it was, I guess, that humanaspect of it, as well as the
ability to address theinequality issues, the growing
inequality issues we have herein this country, that made
co-ops even more appealing.
And so, yes, I was definitelyinterested in it.
We had a conference, asRosemary had mentioned, back in
(04:03):
2015, a conference, as Rosemariehad mentioned back in 2015, in
which we discovered that thepeople in Nashville were open to
co-op and co-op development,co-op economics.
Around that time, rosemariecame and she was interested in
organizing and doing somethingin that area and I guess that
was the hand and the additionalinspiration that I needed to go
(04:28):
forward and together we startedthe Southeast Center.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
This is so interesting because you both
have this longstandingrelationship with organized
labor.
I mean, Rosemary, with theAFL-CIO in Dallas, you as the
local 737 president you were.
Even you did work with theNAACP, am I remembering?
Also in Dixon County there is astereotype that unions are in
(04:58):
opposition a little bit tocooperatives.
Is that accurate?
Speaker 5 (05:02):
I don't think so.
I think when you look at theessentially the what we're
trying to achieve, we're verymuch the same.
We just have different avenuesof addressing the issues,
because it's about power andaddressing the power imbalance
that exists between, say, laborand capital labor and those who
(05:24):
are driven more by the profitmotive, and that power imbalance
is addressed through unionswith, basically contractually,
with co-op.
We try to address that powerimbalance structurally because
the organization is structuredto empower and provide equality
to the workers, to our workers.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Is it just typical provide equality to the workers,
to our workers?
Is it just typical?
Because I remember I had, Ihave family members who worked
in factories and my grandfatherworked in factories and there
was a sort of union squashingtechnique that almost like
looked like a cooperative, likeit almost was trying to go like
well, we're democratizing theworkspace by giving you stocks
in the company.
(06:04):
Could you describe how that'sdifferent than the cooperative
movement?
Speaker 5 (06:09):
That's like recognition without power, so
that you get to participate somuch I mean, I guess, somewhat
in the economic fruit, but youhave no power, you have no
control.
But with co-ops you have bothcontrol and, I guess, a share of
the wealth.
So I think the co-op does moreto actually honor the humanity
(06:33):
of the workers and the fullnessof the workers by giving you not
only part of the economic fruitbut an opportunity to bring
your whole self and to expressyour whole self in the workplace
.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
So could we talk about the different types of
co-ops and the ones that you allare kind of the most aggressive
and trying to push for at times?
Maybe that's not even the rightword, aggressive, but could you
lay out sort of the landscapeof the kind of different types
of cooperatives that we oftensee like?
Speaker 3 (07:06):
with the credit union , which is a financial
cooperative, and so they're theconsumers you know are the co-op
(07:29):
members and technically likecontrol a lot at the credit
union, but that you know,sometimes it's straight away
from that.
They're also like utilitycooperatives.
Those are also consumer co-ops.
They're producer cooperativesand people might be familiar
(07:50):
with, like Sunkist and OceanSpray, these brands.
So these are producercooperatives.
They're made up of independentfarmers who've come together and
, you know, pulled theirresources to create like
branding and marketing,distribution channels,
(08:11):
manufacturing or plants, youknow, for the products.
So they do that collectivelyand all benefit from that what
is ace hardware?
Speaker 2 (08:21):
which one is that is it?
How would you describe acehardware?
Speaker 3 (08:25):
that's the one that I usually am the most familiar
with, to like buy their productstogether and that gives them
like an advantage, right, theycan negotiate cheaper contracts
(08:49):
for you know, nails and screwsand ladders and stuff and then
like to brand that under likethe Ace Hardware brand, and so
they can share marketing costsand things like that.
I think Best Western is similarand actually I think some of
the fast food chains, some ofthe franchisees, get together
(09:14):
and form a cooperative and thenthey can like negotiate better
with, like the mothership ofKentucky Fried Chicken or what,
and get better deals.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
I didn't know Kentucky fried chicken was also
a cooperative too.
I'm going to run out today andget more.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
Yeah, it's not the company as a whole but like some
of the franchises like cometogether to do that Wow.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
I've heard.
It seems like cooperatives arealso very resilient structurally
right.
Benny, you're sort of nodding.
Do you want to just respond tothat immediately?
Speaker 5 (09:50):
Well they are, because I think it's because
co-ops tend to place value onpeople and doing what it takes
to preserve people's economicmeans.
So they do a much better job asperhaps sacrificing something
in the way of profits to betterthe workers and the people who
(10:13):
are dependent on the businessfor their sustainability.
And I think that in itselfunleashes people to be more
determined to succeed, and thatdetermination shows up in the
greater operating performanceand I guess in other means as
well.
But they tend to be moreresilient.
I think people have skin in thegame and when you have skin in
(10:35):
the game you tend to take, Iguess, extraordinary means at
times to see to it that itsucceeds.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
Yeah, even structurally, though, though too
right, I'm thinking of thecompany that I'm the saddest
about it going out of businessis Toys R Us.
If I'm remembering correctly,it was a successful business and
it was thriving.
But there were a bunch oftraders who basically found a
way to buy up toys r us stockand then sell it off in pieces
(11:08):
really butchering the economiclanguage here, but it was.
It was basically takenadvantage of by predatory forces
, and a cooperative like wouldmake that incapable of, or it
would make it impossible forsomething like that to take
place, because, particularly ina worker owned cooperative,
right, they just wouldn't sellthemselves off, right.
Speaker 5 (11:29):
To you're not.
One of the principles isautonomy and independence for
co-ops, and so they do not enterinto agreements or arrangements
that would compromise theirautonomy and independence and I
think Joanne Fabrics right nowwould compromise their autonomy
and independence.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
And I think the loss of Joanne Fabrics right now,
that's such a loss.
You know that's a big hell.
That's a big loss Because thesame thing happened to them,
george, with the just selling itoff.
They were a thriving, thrivingbusiness.
They've had up and comingnumbers for a while.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
There's a story that I've heard, also when it comes
to cooperatives, like the sadstory of cooperatives they
become very successful and thenthe members sort of sell off the
cooperative.
Is that an accurate story tosay, like where, like you have
like a very good, like grocerystore, that's worker owned
cooperative, and then, like, allof a sudden somebody wants to
(12:21):
come in and like, purchase it.
Is this an accurate story?
Speaker 3 (12:24):
Yeah, it doesn't happen as much because, just
because the worker owners likeare interested in, you know,
retaining their jobs and havingthose jobs there long term for
their kids, and so it happens.
But I don't know.
I'm trying to think of anexample that I've heard of
(12:45):
recently and I can't.
The other thing that co-ops tryto do when they create their
operating agreement or bylaws isto put in some kind of
dissolution clause that makes itvery unattractive for that to
happen.
And so one way co-ops do thatis to say that, like at the sale
(13:10):
, like no one will benefit fromthe sale but that the proceeds
might go to, like, the USFederation of Worker
Cooperatives or anothernonprofit that like helps the
co-op development.
So that's kind of one way toput in like a poison pill so
(13:32):
people don't get the idea.
Like you know, this would be agood idea.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
That's interesting because I was working with the
Institute for Social Ecology andsome of the members there had
experiences with co-ops and theytalked about them and like that
they had seen so many examplesof cooperatives going the way
that I just described and I likethat you guys are going like,
well, no, it's very small amount.
You haven't even heard ofexamples really like in the real
(13:58):
world.
And then there's even thispoison pill that can be built in
to really protect and make iteven more resilient to sort of
outside forces wanting to comein and exploit.
It is there, uh, so what do youall do as a cooperative
development?
So the southeast center forcooperative developments, sec,
the number four, cd, um, and sowhat do you all do?
Speaker 5 (14:22):
I think a lot of it's .
It's centered on just creatingthe awareness of co-op
principles, teach about businessand help our clients develop
(14:48):
their business model, businessmodel canvas.
Do a feasibility assessment, sowe help with the technical and
financial support basically andprovide financing in some cases
Do we talk more about the co-opacademy.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
So what is that?
What is that several monthprogram will look like?
What do you all do?
Speaker 3 (15:08):
There are 10 modules or classes that Benny and I
teach and he mentioned, like,some of the content that we
offer.
You know it's like talkingabout the.
You know how to build ademocratic culture within the
business.
You know how to create acompelling mission and vision
(15:30):
statement, putting together abusiness model canvas we touch
on.
We touch on kind of work, youknow, thinking through workflow,
finances, of course, all thecomponents they would need to
start up a cooperative business.
And we ask that they're a teamof at least two, because you
(15:52):
can't be a co-op alone, so mightas well start off right when
you're doing the academy.
Yeah, so there are 10 of thoselike modules.
And then we have six deep dives, we call them.
We bring in kind of outsideexperts who like dive a little
deeper into certain subjects.
(16:13):
We just had one this week onfeasibility and then some weeks
are reserved for the students orparticipants to work through a
workbook that we've createdalong with those 10 modules.
If they do the exercises and alot of people are doing this
(16:35):
next to one, two, three otherjobs, and so while they're kind
of working on these exercises,at the end of completing the
workbook they would be ready tomove on to the next step of
potentially like applying forfinancing through our new
(16:56):
Economy of Tennessee fund, whichoffers startup financing for
worker cooperatives.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
So when someone goes through the academy and they
start their cooperative, what'susually the hardest part for
them to sort of like, take in,what's the biggest roadblock
usually?
Speaker 5 (17:14):
I think, in a way from the, because we've been so
conditioned to accept this sortof autocratic view of
organization what we callTaylorism after Fred Taylor, who
considered the father ofscientific management and, I
think, surrendering that mindset, that hierarchy, boss, workers
(17:37):
mindset, and some people come torealize that they are more
comfortable with that mindsetand so that co-op isn't
particularly for them.
They want to be the boss, theyhave a need to be in control and
control over others.
So I think, coming to gripswith the fact that people can
(17:58):
work together without anauthoritarian leader or
authoritarian presence, I thinkit's probably one of the most
challenging things to grapplewith when you are introduced to
co-op and the co-op culture.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
It starts really early.
It seems like, oh, go ahead,Rosemary.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
Yeah, I was just going to say I just pulled up
one of our partners who didoffered one of the deep dives on
conflict resolution, did asurvey with the participants and
I thought it was interestingbecause she asked you know, what
are your obstacles to overcome?
(18:35):
And more than half of the folkssaid fear and self-doubt.
And I think that goes into whatBenny was saying about how
we're conditioned to like and wesee this because we work with
on conversions so alreadyexisting businesses that are
converted to worker ownershipand you know a lot of people
(18:59):
doubt that.
You know workers can run abusiness like you know they're
not that smart and you have tohave an MBA.
Or you know workers can run abusiness Like you know they're
not that smart and you have tohave an MBA.
Or you know I'm the owner andyou know I'm smart and they
don't know what's going on.
So, yeah, I think like that fearand what it too is like,
ingrained in people, like can Ireally do that?
(19:21):
I, you know, I've never run abusiness, or yeah, so we try to
instill, you know,self-confidence and and that
cause we, you know, by trying tocreate a different economy.
We're, you know, I guess we'rethe, the.
What is it?
We're the answer we're waitingfor.
(19:41):
You know, if we don't do it,who will?
So you know a lot of things wehave to take in our own hands
and we might not have liketraditional you know schooling
or education but that doesn'tmean you can't do it.
So just trying to give peoplethat confidence and the skills
and, you know, the support theyneed to start a co-op.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
You gave kind of like you had a.
I saw a glimpse there of alarger vision, the sort of
cooperative economy vision.
Could you describe that alittle bit with what you mean
when you think, when you talkabout cooperatives like we are
the solution that we've beenwaiting for?
Could you lay that out just alittle bit?
Speaker 3 (20:24):
Yeah, I guess it might not be evident to everyone
, but to most people.
Right, the economy doesn't workfor us.
Right, it doesn't work foreveryone.
It works very well for very fewpeople and it doesn't have to
(20:45):
be this way, right?
What is it?
Was it Margaret Thatcher?
Right, who said there is noalternative?
Right, but there are, and wecan start creating those
alternative systems.
We do have to work in the shellof the old right.
(21:06):
We are within capitalism, youknow.
Wish ourselves out of that.
But you know building somethingnew, that a real alternative,
where you know communitiesgovern and answer.
You know the solutions belongto the community.
Around the questions that theeconomy community.
(21:33):
Around the questions that theeconomy asks, right, like if the
economy is the way we, ashumans, use the resources we
have to meet our needs, right.
Then the questions around whatwe produce, how we produce it,
who gets what we produce andwhat is done with the surplus
right, that those questions,then, are answered by the people
(21:54):
who are creating this value.
Right, the workers and thecommunity as part of the
community.
So, and it's done in ademocratic fashion, right.
So everyone, yeah, everyone'svoice needs to be heard.
Speaker 5 (22:26):
Everyone has a vote Right.
One worker, one vote, and yeah.
So that's how we envision, youknow, a new economy.
It can look and will look, sojust a matter of time, thank you
.
We call it democratizingsociety as well, because it's a
great equalizer, and I thinkthis hierarchy that we've been
conditioned to accept andtolerate is the thing that seems
to be a great part of theproblem, not just economically,
but in human terms as well.
So democracy is at the heart ofco-ops, and democracy is what
(22:51):
really brings equality economicequality as well as equality in
human terms and recognizing theworth of labor and the worth of
people and encouraging people tocontribute what they have,
their skills or talents, whatthey have, and work together,
creating this solidarity effort.
(23:15):
And it's a belief in the powerof the solidarity, are you sure?
Speaker 2 (23:17):
because I thought we already lived in a democracy.
But it is interesting.
It's almost like we're seeingmore of uh you all are sort of
talking about thedemocratization of, like the
workplace, right and uh andalmost that the way in which,
like democratization of theeconomy in the workplace feeds
into democratization again atlike the more formal political
(23:37):
structures, because we're seeinghow a very unequal hierarchical
economy can now bleed into anow very, very unequal hierarch,
hierarchical politicalsituation where the votes are
not just one person, one vote.
It's now, you know, largeamounts of money are defining
things.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
Yeah, and it's about, like community controlled
solutions.
You know, if you're talkingpolitically, you know not just
about voting, but you know ifyou're talking politically, you
know not just about voting, butyou know people are creating
like participatory budgetingsystems where the citizens, you
know, get together and decide,like you know, what should our
(24:22):
budget look like?
Or, even further, I know, inNashville I hope it's still
there, but there's a communityoversight board right where,
like citizens, you know, regulareveryday people right, help
make decisions about like whatshould the budget look like
of're buying, right, and so,yeah, to have like these really
(24:45):
community based solutions toproblems, that goes beyond just,
you know, voting warrants in awhile.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
There's a history of cooperatives being these hubs
for political action, moreformal political action too.
Am I right on that?
Speaker 3 (25:07):
People, yeah, like anecdotally I know we've gotten
that question before too likeyou know, is there research that
shows that?
But what anecdotally rightpeople do, you know?
Once they have theself-confidence and see that
it's possible, right, it kind ofspills over into their private
(25:28):
lives.
Speaker 5 (25:29):
So, yeah, we get a chance to actually exercising
(25:52):
and expressing their voice thatcarries over from the workplace
to the larger community.
Could you talk about the Co-opCafe?
Real quick Co-op Cafe.
Part of what we do is try toallow the people within our
co-op network, our ecosystem, tointeract and socialize, and so
(26:12):
part of our co-op cafe isdesigned to do that, to
encourage that socialinteraction and getting to know
each other, because it's allabout collaborating and
communicating and sharing ideas,sharing thoughts and working
together.
So it's not just work, it couldalso be part of our social
(26:33):
lives.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
If you go to the Southeast Center for Cooperative
Development's website, there isa bunch of tabs at the top and
one of them says faith andco-ops.
Yeah, what is the connectionbetween faith and co-ops for?
Speaker 4 (26:47):
you.
Well, it sounds like they had ahacker, George.
I don't know if they meant forthis.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Okay, all right.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
Faith and co-ops.
That project, I guess, has alonger history.
So we've been collaborating withmy partner, disclaimer, yorg
Rieger, and the Wenlin CookProgram in Religion and Justice
and for many years kind oflooking at, you know, power of
(27:17):
the economy, labor and how faith, you know, is shaped by that,
how faith can shape and doesshape uh economics and labor and
um, so so that's been a a topicthat york and I have uh talk
(27:37):
about a lot and um and.
But you know, especially in thesouth, where um, faith is like a
um, a column or a support right, A big support in people's
lives, that you know laborleaders and other folks who were
(27:57):
working on projects that thinkabout creating better workplaces
(28:24):
.
And we did a study for, oh, wasit like 18 months or so?
And we interviewed people whohad been doing work around
co-opshart and other people andcreated a toolkit for people of
faith who are interested inthinking about this more that
the theologians put together forus and pastors.
(28:45):
And we have a section ofexplaining cooperatives and how
(29:15):
they function and a section twoof where we were thinking about
what could this look like forchurches, how can people of
faith become engaged in creatingcooperatives?
Speaker 4 (29:32):
The South often gets like a bad rap from the North
for not necessarily being thebest place to organize or the
place where people are trying toorganize.
There's a meme that goes aroundsocial media.
It's an image of the Simpsons.
Uh, bus drivers driving the bussays don't make me tap the sign
.
And then it jumps to what thesign says.
(29:53):
You could basically putanything there, but the one that
is my favorite is the South isfull of good people that are on
your side that are held back bygerrymandering,
disenfranchisement andregressive policies.
You work in Nashville, you workin Tennessee, you work in the
southeast.
How does the regional contextand you mentioned that faith is
a huge pillar in the south howdoes that context influence
(30:15):
y'all's approach to cooperativedevelopment?
Speaker 5 (30:18):
I think there's a great deal that we have
paralleled with the church andthe Christian movement.
Once people are aware of justwhat co-ops are about, or what
co-op developers envision, orwhat we as co-op participants,
the future that we envision, Ithink, is very much in parallel
(30:38):
there, because what we see isthis I guess the church would
call it brotherhood but it'sthis connectiveness and this
realization that we are trulyinterconnected and that what
happens to one of us impacts usall, and I think it goes to.
I used the example in class ofAbraham Maslow, who was a
(30:59):
psychologist who talks about theneeds that motivates our
behavior, and we went from, youknow, some of the basic
physiological needs up to thesecurity needs, actualization
needs, and it went to thehighest level, which in his
latter years he determined waswhat he called transcendence,
(31:21):
which is a need that I guessreveals that there's a part of
us that extend the I.
You know, we transcend self andwe recognize how interconnected
we are, which is what heexpressed as the highest need.
And so it's thatinterconnectedness and what we
(31:43):
call the solidarity economy, thefact that we can work together
and achieve and build that newworld that we are envisioning or
that we should be envisioning.
I think I think that'ssomething that we very much have
in common with the church andthe church teachings.
I think that thenon-hierarchical means of
interacting as people, be itorganizationally or informally,
(32:05):
I think that's more in keepingwith the Christian values of the
teachings of Christ.
So I think we have a lot incommon and I think once people
really get to see the values andprinciples that guide co-ops,
those with Christian beliefs, Ithink they see that connection
or see that parallelism.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
It's interesting, like so many people, like Maslow
, like all these others, likeMarx talking about species as
being religion, talking about,you know, the beloved community
and all these different waysthey're all trying to speak to,
this way in which, like we'renot just individuals trying to
increase our own equity, butlike we are these social
creatures that are free andproductive and engage in work
(32:49):
and labor and so much, and itseems like the cooperative
effort and the cooperativeeconomy and the movement is
really trying to help usremember that almost, because
you guys both talked about theways in which we've been
habituated in so many you know,in school and society, in so
many ways to just sort of likeget towards an autocratic sort
of mindset where you know we areworkers ordered around by a
(33:12):
boss and an owner, um, and tosort of like almost, uh,
deprogram.
It's almost like you guys aredoing like deprogramming work as
if, like everyone, has been ina cult for a really long time
yeah and, uh, you're trying toget to them to remember their
essential humanity.
in some ways it's a veryreligious activity, almost.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
Yeah, or just make people realize it's not a
disconnect, like churches onSunday and maybe Wednesday
evenings, but it should be apart of your whole life, right,
and that you're a worker.
I think a lot of people don'trealize that and bring the two
together, like you know, anddoes our economy, or does you
(33:58):
know, capitalism?
You know, is it in line with myChristian or my faith values?
And I think if people reallythought about that, they come to
the conclusion that no, yeah,and you know, can we change that
(34:20):
and what can we do?
Speaker 2 (34:22):
And so yeah, for those who want to learn more
about that, there's the Biblestudy that you described already
, that sort of like walks acongregation through these sort
of questions about, like whatdoes the solidarity economy sort
of do, and then you have even alovely little breakout session
what can churches do, which Ithink is a fascinating list as
well.
There is you have a newinitiative, or it's not really.
(34:45):
I wouldn't.
I don't want to say it's new,but could you all talk about the
Nashville's first publiclyfunded cooperative housing
development that you all havebeen working on?
You start about like maybe whatis it, and then what was the
genesis of this, and then youknow what's the future of it.
Could you answer that sort ofthose three part questions?
Speaker 3 (35:06):
Yeah, I'll let Benny answer that.
He was a major force behind it.
Speaker 5 (35:13):
I think at the core we realized that we can do
something about theaffordability of housing.
And it started because a groupthat we had worked with called
Workers' Dignity had somemembers who were facing
displacement, imminentdisplacement, and so, as part of
(35:33):
the, I guess, thegentrification that was
happening here in Nashville, itwas causing real harm to people,
immediate harm to people, andthey came to us looking, seeing
if we could assist, and so wesuggested or we delved into
possible solutions and one ofthe things that was brought to
(35:54):
our attention by our friends atVanderbilt Law Center.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
They're not all bad people.
Speaker 5 (36:03):
Oh no, no.
They were a great help becausethey pointed out the structure
of the limited equity co-op thatcould provide, in a sense,
permanent affordability forhousing, promoted, advocated,
advocated it with the mayor'soffice and people in housing,
(36:30):
which led to eventually anopportunity through the Barnes
Fund, which is the local housingfund, to try the model.
Let's do a demonstrationproject.
So we have an opportunity to dothat.
We're doing that now so that wecan demonstrate the, I guess,
the viability of affordablehousing through co-ops.
(36:51):
And one of our hopes was thatif we could receive some land
and we was hoping we couldconvince some of the churches
who have a mission of affordablehousing to maybe repurpose some
land so that we could develophousing cooperatives that would
provide permanently affordablehousing for the citizens.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Wow, so residents don't pay rent.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
No, they pay a monthly carrying charge which
would cover their fair share ofthe mortgage cover, you know,
their fair share of the mortgageinsurance taxes.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Property management a reserve fund, you know, in case
the roof starts leaking.
So it is yeah, so there aremonthly charges, and that goes
into also the joint ownershipright as well.
Speaker 5 (37:49):
Well, yeah, the residents jointly own um the
cooperative.
The cooperative, the, thebusiness entity owns the
property.
Yeah, uh, they lease the landfrom community land trust.
Uh, the community land trust isthere to ensure that the terms
of affordability are permanentlymaintained.
But the residents, they areowners, share owners of the
(38:14):
cooperative.
The cooperative owns theproperty.
But what we take out, what youtake away, is the profit motive,
this nonprofit, and instead ofthe profit being siphoned out
for the typical landlord, theprofits is used or the surplus
is used for the continuation ofthe maintenance of the property,
(38:37):
any upgrades and things of thatnature.
There's a modest equity bill,but it's very modest.
It's very modest and you try tokeep it so that it doesn't
exceed the growth in income.
Because that's where theproblem starts when the
valuation of the propertyexceeds the growth in income,
(38:57):
then people can no longer affordit.
So if you keep it pegged,almost indexed, to something at
or below the growth in income,then it would be permanently
affordable.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
I feel like, if I went through the co-op academy,
my problem would not be I don'thave enough confidence, or I
need to relearn what it is to bedemocratic, but it would almost
be like my brain shuts off assoon as you start using economic
language.
But what you're describing is,though, is incredibly radical
(39:28):
thing that you all put together,because you're really reminding
people that you're socializingthings again.
Well, you're putting peopleover profits.
Speaker 5 (39:38):
Yes, yeah, planet over profits.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
I've written that on a sign before Benny and I feel
like it didn't do a lot, but Ifeel like you guys are
legitimately generating that inthe material world.
It's fascinating to me.
Well, yeah, describe for thosewho don't know, a community land
trust.
So what is that?
Speaker 5 (39:59):
Again, that's another nonprofit entity that exists
just to hold titles of land.
It provides a very, verylow-cost lease of the land to
the housing cooperative and it'sthere basically as an oversight
, to ensure that the land isbeing used for affordable
(40:20):
housing, so that you don't fearmarket forces that come in and
offer these exorbitant pricesfor the property that you can't
resist, and so you end upselling out and the people end
up being displaced.
So the land trust is there tohold the land and lease the land
(40:41):
on the terms that affordabilityis preserved, and if you do
something to attempt to dishonoror violate the terms of
affordability, then you violatethe terms of the lease and you
could lose the leasehold andthus lose the property.
So it's there to ensure thatthe permanence of the
(41:03):
affordability is preserved.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
So what I'm hearing is oh, go ahead, sorry is
preserved.
Speaker 3 (41:08):
So what I'm hearing is oh, go ahead.
Sorry I was going to say.
What's also interesting aboutcommunity land trust is the
board is made up of theresidents from the cooperative
residents that live in the areabut aren't members of the
cooperative, just communityfolks, and then stakeholders,
kind of like just communityfolks, and then stakeholders,
(41:32):
kind of like you know, co-op,development center or other
entities that like work aroundaffordable housing, and so you
have this tripartite board sothat, like, everyone's interests
are there at the table.
Speaker 4 (41:44):
Is there any difference at all between sort
of what you guys are describingthat this community land trust,
and this sort of communalownership of the building itself
, in comparison to maybe likecity, affordable housing
projects?
Because you're both talkingabout affordable housing, but
I'm pretty sure they'redifferent.
And there's some keydifferences there, and could you
(42:06):
just sort of flesh that out alittle bit for our audience?
Speaker 5 (42:09):
I think one of the great differences again, just
like with worker cost, comesthrough control, where the
people, actually the residents,are the ones who make the
decisions through the board,through their board, make
decisions about what happensthere at the property.
So they have a very large stakein how they build and shape
(42:32):
their community.
So they are empowered toestablish the culture and the
form and the interaction thatgoes on in their community.
Speaker 3 (42:41):
Yeah, so they really shape it Like it's.
You know they set the houserules and the policies.
They elect their board, youknow they put their budget
together and decide, you know,will the monthly charges go up
this year, you know, or becauseyou know they've all decided
(43:02):
they want to put in a playgroundor something, and so yeah, so
those decisions are made by theresidents.
And I think in public housingyeah, I don't think that's the
case it's probably where, youknow, some other entity,
government entity you know,makes all those decisions.
Speaker 4 (43:23):
Well, often, I think, the city is the one that owns
the property in those situationsas well, and so really it's
just like a rental cap or rentrestriction, where the members
who live there maybe are not,they don't actually have an
ownership stake at all andthey're not, you know,
contributing to communalownership as well.
Speaker 5 (43:41):
And I think it goes to that that again with work in
co-ops that when you haveinvolvement, real involvement,
you have a greater level ofcommitment, and it's that
commitment that really makes thedifference.
Speaker 2 (43:53):
It also seems like I heard another poison pill that
was sort of built in as well,right that if they make the
space unaffordable, they're sortof like losing their capacity
to access the space again right.
So it almost sounds likeSoutheast Center for Cooperative
Development is in the businessof generating poison pills.
(44:14):
But I'm wondering at WendellCook we also focus on ecological
issues.
I'm fascinated by co-ops in theways that they address
ecological concerns and theecological crisis.
I understand the ways in whicha co-op and it almost seems like
(44:37):
built into the structure thatco-ops are infrastructurally
incapable almost of exploitingworkers, because the workers
would have to be exploitingthemselves, which seems to be an
oxymoron in this situation.
Right will also not exploit theland or nature in general.
However we define that, becausethere's sort of an idea in
(45:10):
Wendell and Cook that we assumethat what exploits labor is the
same force that exploits nature.
And it seems like cooperativesreally attack head force, the
forces that attack workers likereally attack head force, the
forces that attack workers.
And I'm just wondering can youdraw the line and help me
(45:31):
understand how those samestructures, that same
infrastructure that a co-op has,addresses the exploitation of
ecology or does it?
Speaker 3 (45:36):
Yeah, I think it goes , you know, back to the
principles.
So cooperatives are, you know,principles-based businesses.
And principle seven is care forthe community.
And so you know that's a bigone that a lot of worker co-ops
you know think about.
(45:56):
And housing co-ops, you know,can we put solar panels on our
housing co-op, can we, you know,put in an energy efficient HVAC
, like it's part of the DNAright To keep thinking about
those things?
And in worker cooperatives, youknow, it's anywhere from like
(46:21):
that, being their valueproposition, like creating a
co-op to help, like restaurants,use their food waste right and
composted.
And we work closely with Co-opCincy.
It's a development center inCincinnati, ohio, and they've
one of their first cooperativeswas one called Sustainergy.
(46:44):
So it's they do insulation andlike energy efficiency for homes
and solar panel installationwith their day-to-day operations
, to actually starting a co-opthat does that full-time, whose
(47:09):
mission it is to help withsustainability.
Speaker 5 (47:20):
And I think also that it goes to, I guess, what we
said earlier about ourrealization of our connectedness
and that principle sevenconcern for community
connectedness.
In that principle seven,concern for community, it
recognizes that we are connectednot just to the community but
to the planet as well.
So part of that is is, as again, as part of our true reality.
Our true nature is ourconnectedness with with all, be
it people or planet or a moregeneral community has anybody
(47:42):
ever built in a poison pill forfollowing principle seven?
I don't think that is as robustas what we do for, I guess,
protecting the organizationitself.
I think it's more in terms ofour values and trying to instill
that value.
Speaker 2 (48:00):
Yeah, rosemary, were you thinking more, or was that?
Speaker 3 (48:03):
Yeah, was just thinking too like, since we're,
you know, working on, you know,concrete alternatives to our
extractive and exploitativecapitalist system, like it's.
It's part of that thinking toolike, if you know, if
traditional capitalist companies, you know, produce whatever in
(48:28):
this way, like we don't want todo it that way, right, we don't
want to exploit workers, and youknow and you think about the
whole supply chain and so youknow we want to do it
differently.
Like you know, fair tradecoffee.
So some of the earliestcooperatives, like modern
(48:52):
cooperatives, were like these,these coffee cooperatives.
Like buyers, you know, gettingtogether, working with, with
coffee growers and other partsof the world, you know helping
them like grow it sustainablyand and then importing that and
using that.
So it's kind of, yeah, likebuilding this circular economy.
(49:14):
One good example are theindustrial's created and using
that waste, for example, tostuff upholstery.
So, yeah, there's no waste andyou can use this in a circular
(49:43):
fashion that reduces waste,reduces pollution and all of
that.
Speaker 2 (49:49):
Thank you both so much.
If people wanted to learn moreabout cooperatives and the
Southeast Center, where wouldyou send them or what would you
tell them to go to?
Speaker 3 (49:59):
Check out our website at wwwcoopsnoworg, and coops is
hyphenated.
Speaker 2 (50:07):
Thank you so much, so we like to end each interview
with what makes you angry todayand what gives you hope today.
Speaker 3 (50:16):
We look at anger as fascist regime.
That pretty much tops it topsthe charts yeah, that pretty
much tops it.
Speaker 5 (50:28):
Yeah, tops the charts .
Yeah, the surprising level oftolerance for this autocracy,
this that's now empowered.
Speaker 2 (50:31):
So yeah, that's and then, what gives you, uh, the
most hope today?
Speaker 3 (50:35):
we just got off a call before this with a new
co-op and, out in rural WestTennessee, three
African-American women who arestarting a home care cooperative
.
Speaker 5 (50:48):
So that's exciting.
Yeah, it gives me hope thatdemocracy will prevail in many
functions, in many ways, soeconomically, perhaps even
politically.
Speaker 2 (51:00):
Thank you both for being with us today.
Speaker 3 (51:03):
Thanks for having us.
Speaker 5 (51:05):
Thank you both for being with us today.
Thanks for having us.
Thank you, George.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.