March 15, 2024 • 52 mins
Today's conversation features Jane Fitzpatrick, a contributing writer to Religion Matters who covers the intersection of religion and the performing arts, with a particular emphasis on the opera. Conversations about religion in the public square happen in all kinds of contexts. This episode considers the many ways that religion is both represented and critiqued in the high cultural form of the opera. We also consider storytelling within both the performing arts and religion, in particular the interpretation and reinterpretation of narrative that is a hallmark of both.
Show Notes:
- "What we can still learn from Dialogues of the Carmelites" (LSE):
(https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/religionglobalsociety/2023/10/what-we-can-still-learn-from-dialogues-of-the-carmelites/) - "Religious Pluralism at the Opera" (The Interfaith Observer):
(http://www.theinterfaithobserver.org/journal-articles/2023/10/2-religious-pluralism-at-the-opera) - "The Show Must Go On For Boris Godunov" (Appreciate Opera):
(https://www.appreciateopera.org/post/the-show-must-go-on-for-boris-godunov)
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Chip Gruen (00:03):
Welcome to ReligionWise. I'm your host Chip
Gruen. Today's conversationfeatures Jane Fitzpatrick, a
writer whose work has appearedin "The Interfaith Observer" and
"Appreciate Opera," andcurrently serves as a
contributor to "ReligionMatters." Her beat covers
religion and the arts, inparticular religion and opera. I
(00:26):
think how this conversationemerged is worth a little bit of
consideration. Jane is herself alistener to ReligionWise, and
reached out to us took ourinvitation seriously that, that
if you have a topic that is ofinterest to the topic of the
podcast to reach out, and sowe're so happy that she did.
(00:48):
Even at first blush, thisconfluence of religion and opera
seems like a very fruitful placeto have a conversation. If we
think about both the subjectmatter and the context for opera
over the last several hundredyears, we can see that there are
a lot of examples that we couldpull out and we can talk about,
we, unfortunately, are only toscratch the surface on
(01:11):
particular operas here, but Ithink there's a larger point
that's also interesting toconsider. When we think about
religion and public life, one ofthe things that I think that
we're really interested in is,where does that conversation
happen? Where do we consider theboundaries of religion? Where
does the conversation aboutreligion and its influence on
(01:34):
people, culture, history, etc.,where does that happen? And the
arts is one that admittedly, wehaven't really talked a lot
about on the podcast, but Ithink is a fruitful avenue to
move forward so that when yousee religion depicted, for
example, in opera, how is itdepicted? Is it imagined as an
unambiguous good? Is it imaginedas a place for potential
(01:57):
corruption? Is it imagined asideally, a spiritual endeavor
that is influenced by you know,the foibles and flaws of humans
who participate in it, I mean,we can imagine a lot of
different ways in which theconversation of religion can
happen here. Additionally, oneof the things that I was really
happy to talk about in thisconversation, and you can hear
(02:19):
Jane and I discuss is the waysin which artistic representation
has several lives built into it.
So for example, if a opera isset in the ancient past, that is
one of the contexts if then itis imagined in an operatic
setting in, say, the 19thcentury, that is another
(02:40):
context. And then as it'sperformed in the contemporary
world, that is another contextso that we can see the really
the layers of meaning the layersof interpretive possibility. And
the real understanding thathappens is not only a function
of the Performing Arts in thiscase, but as a function of how
religion functions as well, thetelling of narratives and the
(03:00):
retelling in therecontextualization. So I think
that's super interesting aswell. And finally, I'll just say
that sometimes these things arecoincidentally even more
relevant than you might imagine,at first blush. So you'll hear
conversations about contemporaryevents in Israel and Gaza, and
the Ukraine, as cases in pointwhere we have contemporary
(03:23):
conflict, contemporary issuesbeing distilled right through
artworks that are that are beingperformed, right in the
contemporary context. But we'renot originally intended to speak
to those to those contexts, theyoriginally dealt with other
things. So again, this processof interpretation and
(03:43):
reinterpretation, I think is, isreally key and really
interesting for us to thinkabout. So without further ado,
here's my conversation with JaneFitzpatrick, I hope you enjoy
it. Jane Fitzpatrick, thanks forbeing on ReligionWise.
Jane Fitzpatrick (04:00):
Thank you so much for having me.
Chip Gruen (04:03):
So I wanted to start off with with you and your
vocational trajectory. So youcover religion in the arts, in
particular, religion and opera.
And your work has appeared in anumber of different outlets,
including the "ReligionMatters," "Interfaith Observer"
and "Appreciate Opera," butbeyond your interest in
(04:24):
religion, your professionaltraining has also been in
International Studies. And Ishould also add here, you've had
some experience in operaticperformance as well. Can you
talk about how you came tofollow this beat how you came
around to thinking aboutreligion and opera? It's
actually kind of coincidentallybeen a theme of the last couple
(04:46):
episodes of ReligionWise thatvocational paths are sometimes
unpredictable. So can you talk alittle bit about yours?
Jane Fitzpatrick (04:55):
First of all, I am a huge fan of the podcast.
One reason being that I findseveral of your guests very
relatable. And their work isexceedingly inspiring. So thank
you for that. For me, when I wasvery young, I remember my dad
asking me, What do you want tobe when you grow up? The typical
(05:16):
question to ask a young person,right? For some reason, I always
had a list. So I could neverchoose just one thing. And I
don't think I've grown out ofthat habit in the least. So I
started singing probably aroundmiddle school age, my grandma
was actually an opera singer.
And my mom and I fell in lovewith opera, she would take me to
(05:39):
our local movie theater to seethe Metropolitan Opera's live
broadcasts of their productions.
So that had a big played a bigrole in how I became interested.
But then, of course, I found outthat it's really fun to sing
too. In high school, I foundthat I had a strong interest in
(06:03):
religion, and cultures,particularly through literature,
and symbolism in classicliterature, I just found myself
really drawn to those topics ofreligious parallels. But one,
one of the main reasons I choseto major in religious studies in
college was because I reallyfound that studying religious
(06:28):
traditions encompassed so manydisciplines, under the
humanities umbrella, like Isaid, I've always wanted to be
so many different things. I loveto study languages. I love art
history. So I picked that up incollege. And then I earned my
Master's degree right after ininternational affairs, as you
(06:48):
said, and I was able toconcentrate in religions. But
during those two years, I feltsuch a desperate need to keep
art and especially opera in mylife, I think I've I've run into
many stages in life where I feltlike I needed to choose right,
or something needs to be restedwhile I work on something else,
(07:12):
you know, I need to pursuesomething that will make me
money, I need to prioritize mytime. But I just think that art
making is so critical toemotional and mental well being
for me anyway. So I figured outdifferent ways to incorporate
(07:33):
all of those different passionsand artmaking into my studies.
And I was surprised at the time,but I think now it's pretty
blatantly obvious after done...
after having done so muchresearch that religion,
international affairs and operahave always been uniquely
entwined. And so I'm excited totalk a little bit about that
(07:58):
today.
Chip Gruen (08:01):
Yeah, and so you, you have the opportunity to
think about that in yourwriting, obviously, which is
sort of the grist for ourconversation today. And in that
writing, you feature a number ofparticular operas. And we'll get
to some of those specifics. AndI have ones I want to talk
about, and I welcome you to talkabout particular ones that you
(08:23):
think offer particular insightsare meaningful for you. But I
want to start more generally,and depending on the context,
the composure of an opera, youknow, can choose to make
religion function verydifferently in different pieces,
right from being either anearnest representation that
seeks to offer a religioustruth, to a critique of
(08:46):
religious sentiment or acritique of religious
institutions. I mean, we can seeexamples of many of these
things. We'll talk about some ofthose today. But the opera can
be kind of a blank slate, as youknow, the performing and plastic
arts can be in lots of ways. Sohow do you think about that
confluence of the two of thesethings of opera and religion? Do
you see big picture connectionsthat are a through line your
(09:09):
thinking? Or do you think thateach new project that you think
about or each new opera youthink about is mostly context
specific?
Jane Fitzpatrick (09:17):
I would say when I'm approaching an opera,
that I work with it in such away that considers a set of
various contexts and how itplays with those contexts. So
you can certainly analyze justthe story itself, and then how
the musicality goes with it tocreate an operatic performance.
(09:42):
But a lot of performers evenwill dive into looking further
beyond and seeing where thatstory came from. Who are these
characters via a biblical storyor a moment in history, a
fictionalized story Then youmight be interested in how the
(10:03):
composer chose this narrative,and how they saw it from their
own personal historical context.
And then you can look at thecontext in which the opera then
has been staged, even centurieslater. So, as an example, I
understand that not everyonewho's going to be listening to
this episode will know a wholelot about opera, you may or may
(10:24):
not be familiar withMussorgsky’s Boris Gudonov, as
an example. And we might talk alittle bit about that one later.
But to set the stage in a way,just imagine an American singer,
playing a Russian Tsar duringthe Cold War. That's pretty
significant imagery, right?
(10:46):
There are clearly a lot ofdifferent perspectives we can
talk about in that real lifescenario that did take place.
And not least of them being therole of the Russian Orthodox
Church, it plays a massive rolein that specific opera. And that
can tell us a whole lot aboutRussian culture, about how that
looks when the art forminteracts with current politics,
(11:10):
and world affairs. So to answeryour question, long story short,
there are a lot of specificcontexts that I sort of list out
for myself to explore. And thenI realize that each opera has
its own story to tell indifferent times in different
settings.
Chip Gruen (11:29):
Yeah, well, let's go ahead and talk about that Boris
Gudonov example, I think this isa good place to talk about it as
any that you know, one of thethings you see, this opera is
described as it's considered aquote unquote, celebration of
Russian identity. Right? Soimagining that playing in the
Cold War, right is obviously onecase in point where you talk
(11:52):
about context. But the other isthat in 2022, this was scheduled
to be performed by the PolishNational Opera. And of course,
the Russian invasion of Ukraine,sort of sprung up. And I've got
a quote here, actually, thedirector said in response to
(12:12):
this, they canceled theperformance, they canceled the
run of the show. And he said, Weare based in Warsaw, a city that
vividly remembers the firstbombs that fell from the sky
during the Second World War. Weare deeply affected by the war
in Ukraine and the suffering ofthe Ukrainian people. We admire
the heroism of the Ukrainianswho have stood up to defend
(12:34):
their motherland. Right. Andthat was sort of the the
explanation of the cancellationof that. So I mean, what do you
think of that? I mean, right.
It's obviously a world away fromthe composition of the opera
itself. But of course, arelevant, you know, thing to
think about contemporary contextas well.
Jane Fitzpatrick (12:50):
You know, there's always going to be a
part of me as an opera lover,and a lover of the arts that
wants to be able to appreciateart for art's sake. And I think
that one of my favorite thingsabout going to a theater is that
you can feel like you've leftthe outside world for a few
hours, and you're beingtransported to a new space with
(13:12):
new opportunities. But I alsohave to honor the fact that for
lots of people, includingmyself, at certain times, we can
always leave our identities atthe door and understand a new
set of beliefs, a newperspective, it can be very
challenging. So Boris, goodenough, is celebrated as a
(13:37):
distinctly Russian opera,acknowledging that is simply an
understanding of the history andthe intention of the work and of
the history of Russian culture.
So but it does raise thequestion, then, are we canceling
the work as part of an efforttowards erasure or demonization
of a specific culture? Anartistry? Maybe that sounds
(14:00):
extreme? But if not, then wheredoes that effort in limiting
artistic and cultural exchangein that direction, stop. It's
important to have theconversation, particularly in
the arts, and understanding therole that arts play in society
and International Affairs. And Ithink we should all recognize
(14:22):
that what we create and what wepromote, is always going to mean
something, we can't alwaysescape that. Now, if you have an
opera, of course, that blatantlyputs down certain religious and
minority groups, then theconversations are all the more
critical in talking about whyare we continuing to reproduce
(14:43):
these these works, what, whatdoes it means for us now in
today's world,
Chip Gruen (14:51):
Yeah, so this brings us back I think, to one of the
major I mean, we've alreadytalked about it a little bit
here, but the importance ofstorytelling and narrative right
that those narratives are notare neither disassociated from
the past, though maybe not aperfect representation of the
past, but then can beinterpreted and reinterpreted
and re understood in variousother historical contexts. So
(15:13):
obviously, you know, this isalso true of religion, right,
that religious story, religiousnarrative is important. And you
don't have to read too deeplyinto ritual and performance
studies, before you start to seeconnections between theatrical
performance more generally, and,you know, connections to
religious rites and observance.
I mean, you see so many ritualstudies books, I mean, maybe
(15:35):
they don't start, but they endedup in Greek theatre at some
point, right, that that's asuper important part of that
field, I think. So, religion andopera, you know, fill this need
of storytelling, and I thinksimilar ways. I mean, how much
do you see them as sort ofrhyming with one another as
cultural productions religionand, and opera? Or is there some
(15:56):
aspect of the entertainmentvalue or the performance value
of opera that make it adifferent kind of phenomenon
altogether?
Jane Fitzpatrick (16:08):
I think there are a few ways to take that
question. From a religiousstudies background, we can
certainly say that they severalreligious traditions have
utilized the practice ofreenactment and role playing.
And so sometimes the concept ofperformance gets blurred, or
(16:29):
used in certain ways duringritual, which can be really
interesting. From an artsperspective and acknowledging
that entertainment value. Ithink what is really special
about the arts as a whole, andcertainly the performing arts
space, is that, as I mentioned,sometimes you can't, sometimes
(16:49):
you can, but as an audiencemember, there are times when you
can make a few choices about howyou enter that space, and how
you consume what's being offeredto you. So in light of
discussing interfaithframeworks, including non
religious voices, everyone canfeel welcome to engage with
(17:12):
performance. In this way. Youcan be an outside observer, if
that feels comfortable at thetime, you don't have to feel
like an outsider, you cancertainly have a spiritual
enlightenment from the nosebleedseats. If you feel compelled, I
know, music often makes me cry.
So and whether that's areligious experience, or, you
know, just emotionalfulfillment, there's a lot of
(17:36):
there's a large span for how youconsume and interpret that
experience. Now, as I said, youmight be able to leave personal
identities and beliefs at thedoor for a moment and be open to
seeing the world through adifferent perspective. Put
(17:57):
yourself in someone else'sshoes, for example. Or you may
feel validated and personallyinspired by the traditions and
lived experiences beingportrayed. So what's coming to
mind for me is one of myfavorite works, which is
"Dialogues of the Carmelites" byFrancis Poulenc. It's about a
group of Catholic nuns who choseto die for their faith rather
(18:22):
than assimilate to a secularlife. This was a true story,
from the reign of terror duringthe French Revolution. And I
haven't met anyone thus far, whodoesn't feel a sense of awe when
they watch the final scene ofthat opera, wherein if you're
unfamiliar, the nuns choose towalk to the guillotine, singing
(18:45):
the Salve Regina. Now, even themusic itself is very haunting.
And I personally rememberfeeling very emotional when I
was rehearsing it and performingmyself about a year ago, having
to also serve as the dramaturgefor that production, which is
amazing experience for me. I'vedone a lot of historical
(19:07):
research on this particularwork. So I know that even the
composer was strugglingpersonally, while he was working
on this piece with his faith andthe concept of death. So there's
a lot that you can explorethere, and how opera can be
interpreted whether you see itfor its entertainment, or you
(19:29):
want to dive deeper and you wantto feel what was felt by those
nuns, by Francis Poulenc by theactors in front of you, as an
audience member if you want tosimply relate to those nuns
through a sense of sharedhumanity and bravery standing up
for what they believe in justmore generally. That's
(19:54):
wonderful. Right? I would arguethat's still quite productive in
working towards interfaith peaceamong religious and non
religious peoples in the world.
But at the same time, I'm goingto want to acknowledge that you
can't separate their braveryfrom their devotion to their
faith that's at the core forthem, I think it's important to
(20:17):
understand that they can also beseen as feminists role models,
or defenders of religiousfreedom, I actually wrote a
piece last fall, where I lookedat the sacrifice of the
Carmelites. And their suffering,and then looked at the suffering
of Muslim women in France incontemporary times. And both
(20:40):
groups there just wanted to weartheir religious garb and live
their lives peacefully amongsecular groups as well. But they
were challenged by those secularpolicies. So it was a very
interesting comparison there.
And to sort of round out whatI'm saying, I guess you could
say, come for the free music,stay for a new perspective on
(21:05):
religious experience, or maybeeven have religious experience
for yourself. But then what Ireally encourage is have
conversations outside of thetheater to make the performance,
the entertainment, or artreally, actually mean something
to you and the world that youwant to see.
Chip Gruen (21:27):
Yeah, I think I mentioned in a previous episode,
I'm doing my Religion andPopular Culture class right now
and, you know, I don't know wewill talk a little later maybe
about whether opera is popularculture or not. But the idea of
talking about something iseither religion or not religion,
I think, doesn't make a wholelot of sense for me, right? But
instead, the idea of how cansomething function for the
(21:49):
individuals who areparticipating in it or observing
it or whatever, and it soundslike you would make the case
that that certainly the operacan be a religious experience.
You know, a la somebody likeRudolf Otto or Mircea Eliade or
somebody like that. So let'smove on to another one of the
operas that you highlight inyour writing. One of those is
(22:12):
Giacomo Puccini's Tosca. Somajor themes in this work
include authoritarianism, power,corruption, but the church and
the depiction of religiousvalues serve as both the literal
and figurative backdrop in thestory, in fact, several of the
scenes feature religiouslandscapes or religious
(22:33):
contexts, including the climaxat Castel Sant'Angelo in Rome.
One of your major claims is thattaking religion seriously in the
opera generally, and in thiscase, Puccini's Tosca is
essential to understanding thework and more abstractly opens
(22:53):
new interpretive possibilities,and offers broader commentary or
lenses through which to see theworldview of the composer and
the characters themselves. Canyou help us see about the
functions of religion in Tosca?
And then maybe you could juststart with a quick synopsis and
then and then make the case forthe importance of the religious
imagery there.
Jane Fitzpatrick (23:15):
Sure. Tosca is about a beautiful and devoutly
faithful woman named Tosca whofalls in love with an artist and
political outcast namedCavaradossi. Scarpia is the
chief of police. And he wants todrive Tosca away from
(23:37):
Cavaradossi and into his arms.
Of course, he is the villain,and he uses religion for
nefarious purposes, shall wesay? So Cavaradossi is
eventually taken to prison. He'stortured and set to be executed
for his political rebellions.
However, Scarpia tells Toscathat he will make an order to
(24:04):
fake the execution and letCavaradossi live. So long as
Tosca gives herself to Scarpia.
He ends up being quite roughwith her and though she accepts
the deal for her love, she findsan opportunity during his
advances and stabs him to death.
(24:28):
Tosca then rushes to her lover,where she believes his execution
will be faked, but naturallyScarpia did not keep his word.
So realizing that Cavaradossi isdead, Tosca jumps from the top
of the Castel Sant'Angelo, andthe curtain descends. The Tosca
(24:50):
is a very popular work. If youcan't tell it's really got that
operatic drama down to a tee andit's been popular for a really
long time and staged so manytimes, I would say, and people
often argue that it's theirfavorite, their best, or might
(25:11):
even have been their first operathat they've ever seen. It's
definitely a good conversationpiece for this discussion. And
some of my most favoriteresearch that I've done is on
that last scene where Toscatakes her own life, after
realizing that Cavaradossi isdead. Because there is this one
(25:33):
figure in particular that alwayshaunts me in those final
moments. As I mentioned, thefinal scene takes place atop the
Castel Sant'Angelo, and who isstanding atop the Castel
Sant'Angelo, that is a statue ofSt. Michael, the archangel. And
that statue is a very uniquehistory and role in the history
(25:55):
of Rome, and the CatholicChurch. And one thing that is
special about Tosca, and manyoperas that incorporate
religions, to be sure is thatthere are so many details that
you could single out and pullapart for days. So that statute,
(26:17):
it doesn't sing, it doesn'tmove. But it's always a feature
in the productions of Tosca. Andit's really the last thing that
you see. And that leaves such alasting impact for me anyway.
And just that one element,demonstrates how intense and how
important that religiousbackdrop even though it's not a
(26:39):
living, breathing character, itreally is. I would certainly
describe the presence ofreligion in Tosca as very
intense. So the story is sett inRome, 1800, with, as you said,
real architectural elements thatmake the images of the Catholic
(27:00):
Church and also its engagementwith politic, very vibrant, and
almost consuming for thecharacters and their choices. So
it is literally and figurativelya dramatic backdrop, while
they're praying while they'retalking about morality. But also
(27:22):
while they commit some veryserious mortal sins, you could
certainly do a little dive intopersonal versus
institutionalized faith as wellas true faith versus the
critical manipulation of faithand piety.
Chip Gruen (27:37):
Yeah, and it was we were talking you know, a little
bit back and forth about thisconversation, we were both
expressing our, our admirationand love for, you know, some of
this imagery and, you know, I'mjust gonna geek out for a second
on just Castel Sant'Angelo as aas a backdrop. And anybody who
(27:58):
is has not been to Rome, or ifyou're going to Rome, go make a
plan to visit Castel Sant'Angelobecause it has this very long
history. It was Hadrian, theEmperor Hadrian in the early
second century, his mausoleum,and was later transformed into
this Bulwark fortress, that hassecret tunnels going into that,
(28:20):
you know, into Vatican Cityitself into the people apartment
so that one could could abscondaway from St. Peter's and take
refuge as when when Rome wassacked in the 16th century as
the papal Court did. And so it'sjust such a fascinating place,
right to have this layer overlayer over layer of history,
(28:40):
kind of, similarly to the ideaof what we talked about the
story is told, and then it'sreproduced in opera, and then
it's performed later, just thismulti, you know, the kind of the
layer, the layered effect ofmeaning I think it's just so, so
wonderful, right? And to thinkabout, you know, that ending
image and the religious imageryand the historical imagery and
(29:03):
all the things that are going onthere. It's just, it's a lot of
food for thought, I think. Solet's move on to another opera
this Italian tradition. And youcan't think about Italian opera
without thinking about GiuseppeVerdi. So we're going to do a
necessary Verdi connection. Andhis opera Nabucco. This opera,
(29:25):
rather than just relying on thecontext of religion, like we saw
in Tosca retells with, of coursesubstantial liberties, a
narrative from Hebrewscriptures. Nabucco is the
Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar,and there's high priest
Zechariah. And then there are anumber of fictional characters
(29:46):
that are introduced for thepurposes of the narrative. And
it tells the story about thedestruction of the temple in
Jerusalem to deportation toBabylon, the eventual
restoration to land of Israel,you know, obviously, there's a
lot going on here. What do youthink about the retelling in
(30:06):
this form? Right, the idea ofthis ancient story that is being
sort of recast and reimagined inearly nine, early to mid 19th
century Italy, right, and thenadapted and and represented
again, you know, in thecontemporary world.
Jane Fitzpatrick (30:24):
Yes, artistic liberty is a very important
element to this discussion, andacross many different forms of
religious art. So I'm definitelyglad you brought that up. Opera
loves dramaunapod...unapologetically. So,
as you mentioned, there areseveral characters in Nabucco
(30:45):
that have not been found inhistorical documents, including
the Bible and the story itselfcontains several fictional
details. But this particularwork significantly helped
Verdi's career as a composer andit actually resonated with his
Italian audiences quite a bitduring his time. And it became a
(31:09):
kind of political allegory andinspired Italian nationalism. So
those sentiments are actuallystill relevant for a lot of
people today, specifically, inThe Chorus of the Hebrew Slaves,
Va, pensiero. So despite therebeing some extra drama mixed in
(31:30):
audiences still seem to resonatewith those core themes there,
which is really interesting. AndI think another work that might
help to answer this question,too, is Rossini's Maometto
Secondo. Another Italiancomposer, who saw the Italian
politics of his day wanted tomake his audiences happy.
(31:52):
Rossini composed an opera aboutan Ottoman encounter with the
Venetians. Mehmed II captured anisland governed by the Venetians
in the 1400s. And Rossinidecided to alter the ending of
his own work to demonstrate aVenetian victory instead of the
(32:14):
original, and note thishistorically accurate ending,
wherein the Ottomans succeed inconquering the territory. The
truth of the matter is thatMehmed II probably, though,
it's, I guess, not impossible tonot have a tragic love affair
during his campaign against theVenetians, as depicted in the
(32:36):
opera. And he certainly we doknow, did not die there as to
get in the revision of theopera. But this work has been
performed in both versions, evencenturies later. I should point
out too, that the libretto isnot all that kind towards
Muslims, and the Ottoman Empire.
So it definitely sympathizeswith European Christianity as
(32:59):
the hero of story. Now, MaomettoSecondo is not a great example
for promoting interfaith peace,shall we say. But it's certainly
starts an interestingconversation. And it's
interesting to see how audiencestook what was in front of them,
(33:20):
and made it matter to theirlives, took the art and
entertainment, the performance,and said, I relate to this in
some way. I actually did someresearch about a year ago about
how Rossini's work may reflectthe [inaudible], which was a
European invention, invention ofstudy about the Ottoman Empire.
(33:44):
It was very artistic, but alsovery offensive. So it helped
them at that time, sort ofconceptualize the people that
they were encountering and thatwere coming towards them. It was
not always positive. But that'swhat makes these contexts so
(34:04):
interesting to study and seeinghow place and time can really
make or break an opera in someways. And a composer.
Chip Gruen (34:17):
Yeah. And in speaking of in those contexts
can sometimes be intentional,right? I think Verdi writing in
1852, or 1842, to go back tothat to that example. Right? Is
probably thinking about Italian,you know, unification, right?
When he's thinking about theTemple and thinking about
(34:37):
Jerusalem and Babylonians andall that, but then you can have
something happen that isunpredictable. That sort of puts
the whole thing in a whole newlight. So, you know, as I was
doing preparation for this, Imean, I'm, I'm guilty of not
actually being a follower of theopera so I had to do a little
research to see this when thiswas, but I was interested in
(34:59):
when Nabucco was was performed,you know, recently. And just
coincidentally, it opened onSeptember 28, 2023, and just
closed January 26, 2024. So itwas in its run when the
terrorists, the Hamas terroristattacks happened in southern
Israel in early October onOctober 7. And so we then get
(35:26):
the biblical story, we get anunderstanding of the biblical
story as a telling of an Italiannarrative of independence and
unification. And then we get itunderstood by contemporary
audiences as being a statementof Israeli nationalism or, you
know, an understanding of, youknow, the return to the, to the
(35:47):
land of Israel and so forth.
Obviously hits a lotdifferently, right, for in that
immediate aftermath, you know,and as I was looking at this and
thinking about sort of the powerof that coincidence, I thought,
there has to have been someresponse, right? And in fact, on
October 11, I believe it was,there was a special performance
(36:09):
of the cast of that Chorus ofthe Hebrew Slaves, the Va,
pensiero, that was dedicated tothe lives lost in in those
attacks. I'm haven't found anyparticular evidence, this
doesn't mean it doesn't exist,but one also wonders, you know,
as the response in Gaza happenedas well, right, whether there is
(36:35):
any, I don't know, protest ismaybe too strong a word, but any
ill feelings towards thecontinued production of this
opera that is that is sostaunchly nationalistic in its
tone, again, first for Italiannationalism, but of course,
reinterpreted and reunderstood.
(36:55):
So I don't know. It's just,it's, it's fascinating to see
the afterlife and the, in theway that these things unfold.
Jane Fitzpatrick (37:04):
I have seen some criticism about the recent
production of Nabucco given thecurrent political climate. But
I'm not convinced that thecriticism has been as intense or
perhaps as visible, I'll say, asother productions they've
received in other contexts. Sofor example, in 2014, the Met
(37:28):
the Metropolitan Opera faced alot of controversy for showing a
work called the Death ofKlinghoffer by John Adams,
because many people do feel thatthe work, may be antisemitic in
certain ways, and they don'tagree with the perceived display
of sympathy towards MuslimPalestinian peoples. And there's
(37:51):
also opposing arguments to that,a lot of people feel that that
work is really important, andthat sympathy is resonating with
them quite a lot. It doesn'tseem like the tension was as
high for the recent productionof Nabucco despite these
parallels that you mentioned,and coinciding international
(38:12):
events, I think you could devotea lot of time and perhaps an
entire podcast episode on thatcomparison. But for anyone who's
interested, I think it's about afew things. One of them being
analyzing the prevailingsentiments of majority audience
members, perhaps seeing one ofthe story is as history of
(38:38):
suffering, whereas the othercomes across as a story of
victory has something to do withit. So there's the thematic
differences and how audienceswalk away from it with the
resulting emotions might besomething to look at. There's
certainly a lot that you couldspeculate about there.
Chip Gruen (38:57):
So I want to connect, actually, in a way that
I didn't necessarily foresee,but something else that we
talked about was the relativepopularity and reach of opera.
And I think this might be a goodplace to consider that. Because,
I mean, if this were, forexample, a Broadway show, right,
(39:18):
that it probably would not be ashard to find the controversy as
hard to find, you know, sort ofmore raw emotions. I wonder
about sort of, there is andmaybe we disagree about this,
but I see the opera is a littlebit more esoteric. I mean, a lot
of times it's being performed inanother language, right. It is
(39:42):
something that at least has thethe guise of a particular kind
of social and political classbeing the people who attend. You
know, I wonder about you know,about the opera going public. I
mean, how do you think aboutthis, how do you think about the
reach of opera, how do you seeit as culturally relevant again,
(40:03):
doesn't sound great. I mean,because it's, of course, it's
super culturally relevant, butimportant to the public
conversation about religion orother cultural, political
historical topics.
Jane Fitzpatrick (40:15):
I think American culture certainly has
less of an appreciation foropera, unfortunately. But that
doesn't have, that doesn't haveto be the future. And I
certainly want more people togive opera try. And I think it
is more accessible than a lot ofpeople think. And certainly, if
you can watch a movie withsubtitles, then you can
(40:37):
definitely watch an opera sungin a different language. And in
the vein of religions, I hopethat people will try to see it
more as a vehicle for sharing anopportunity for dialogue and for
peace, rather than for furtherdivision, or just an old
(40:59):
fashioned way of gettingentertainment. I want people to
understand that art is importantoverall. And opera has a lot to
say, as we've talked about, it'snot always the best promoter of
interfaith peace, so to speak,when it's telling an inaccurate
(41:20):
story or mistreating certaincharacters based on their
beliefs, but there can still bea meaningful conversation there,
I think it can still serve a lotof different cultural purposes,
that maybe we're missing out on.
Chip Gruen (41:36):
Yeah, one of the comparisons, you know, and I
mentioned Broadway a minute ago,but one of the comparisons that
that has kept coming up in my mymind is the stage show The Book
of Mormon. And the reason Ibring it up is because, you
know, I have had members of theChurch of Jesus Christ of Latter
(41:58):
Day Saints as guests onInstitute programs here on
campus, I've taken students tothe local ward of the Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter DaySaints, we went on a field trip
at the dedication of the templein Philadelphia a number of
years ago and got a tour. Andwithout fail, it's not students
(42:18):
or public that brings up TheBook of Mormon. It's members of
the church that bring up TheBook of Mormon, and it becomes a
touchstone, that as abusive andunfair as that representation
is, it becomes kind of acommonplace for a conversation
about the church. And so youknow, you talk about the way in
(42:41):
which opera can misrepresent andnot be a fair telling. But I
think you're right, that, thatit is an entry point into into a
narrative all its own.
Jane Fitzpatrick (42:52):
And yeah, I agree, it can be a great
starting point for people toconnect, right? So if that is
the only exposure you've had tothis tradition? Well, let's
start there, have aconversation, talk to someone
who can clarify things who cantake you a little deeper into
the understanding of what thatwork then means to them, what
(43:15):
that represents.
Chip Gruen (43:17):
So I want to kind of as we reach the end here, I want
to come back to a more generalquestion. You know, one of the
things that I'm continuallyconfronted with in my work and
the work of the Institute is theway in which dynamics around you
know, Millennial and Gen Zpopulations towards
(43:38):
institutionalized religion havereally shifted right that the
structures of maybe theirparent's or grandparent's
generation, are not totallyunappealing to all of that newer
generation, but are certainlyless appealing to some right. So
the statistic I always cite hereis that matriculating students
(43:59):
at the university level reportsomething like 40% non
affiliation. And I wonder aboutthe opera here, you know, on a
couple levels, one, I mean, justthe opera get swept up in that
rejection of sort of oldercultural forms, and or do
religious themes in the operabecome less palatable, less
(44:23):
interesting, less useful for anew generation of opera goers?
Jane Fitzpatrick (44:29):
I think a lot of companies have been making an
effort to put on morecontemporary works, that they
think will resonate more withcontemporary and younger
audiences. I think that's been ahuge part of a widespread
initiative there. And in somecases, that has meant perhaps
(44:52):
less religious detail on thenarratives presented, but I
don't know why I think I'vefound that in several cases, the
religious traditions have beenjust as prominent, if not more.
And these works have actuallysought to inspire future
conversations about it. So wetalked about the Death of
(45:13):
Klinghoffer, that's acontemporary work. Another work
called Omar, composed byRhiannon Giddens contemporary
opera about a Muslim man who wasbrought to America on a slave
ship. And after lots of trialsand tribulations, really
unfortunate story, he is gifteda Bible by one of his owners.
(45:38):
And the work actually ends withOmar questioning what this what
this religious exchange, andwhat his own personal religious
beliefs in conjunction with thehorrible realities that he has
had to live through all cometogether to mean. He's asking,
What does this mean? And I thinkthis shows that a lot of
(46:04):
contemporary audiences areactually quite eager to look at
these questions of religiousdivision of what interfaith can
mean, I think this shows thatthe contemporary world remains
very willing and eager toanalyze religion through opera.
(46:28):
I mean, certainly, you mentionedthat we have a growing non
religious population. But Ithink that there's a large
portion of that populationthat's offering a new avenue and
saying, why don't why don't wetalk about this more? Why don't
(46:49):
we talk about these age olddivisions? And why can't we
explore these questions? Becausewe all face similar problems. We
all have to confront death oneday, and we don't know what
happens afterward. And thingslike that, are what religious
traditions often confront,right? So to have conversations
(47:16):
about, why are these two groups,so divided? Let's talk about it.
Is there something there? Well,is this Muslim slave? Is it a
good thing that his slave ownerthat his owner gave him a Bible?
Maybe, maybe not really? Right?
And what can we, what can we sayabout that for our future? What
(47:39):
that can mean, and what we wantthe world to look like?
Chip Gruen (47:45):
I wonder, you know, as you think about this,
obviously, one lens and lensthat we're choosing to use here
is to think about about religionand opera, but almost every
example we've come up with hasended up being some kind of
disproportionate powerrelationship, right? That is,
you know, Tosca being one andThe Dialogues of the Carmelites
(48:08):
being another here, Omar beinganother, you know, I wonder if a
modern art audience isn't moreinterested in those aspects of
the story, being sort of frontand center, rather than the
religious discourses that youand I both happen to be
interested in? And not thatwe're not interested in the
others, but but you know, whatcomes to the foreground, and
(48:28):
what recedes to the backgroundmight be changing as well. All
right, so, um, one of thequestions I like to ask, and I
want to end up here is, youknow, on ReligionWise, I'm very
interested in the, in the waythat we talk about religion in,
you know, that religion isconsidered within public
(48:50):
discourse within the publicconversation. And I wonder, you
know, where you'd want to leaveit here about, you know, what
have we not considered about therole of opera in shaping
conversation or reflectingconversation? You know, what
does opera and the confluence ofopera and public discourse look
like?
Jane Fitzpatrick (49:09):
I think I would just want to recognize,
again, that I'm not trying tosay that all operas should be
used. Certainly the ones thatincorporate religious tradition,
not all of these operas shouldbe used for, quote, unquote,
promoting interfaith peace. Butas you pointed out with Book of
(49:33):
Mormon, it can be such a coolstarting point for conversation.
And that in many cases ismeaningful. And I think what
I'll add to that, then, is thatwe should be listening to the
voices of all the audiencemembers that are walking out. So
(49:54):
one person may say, this workwas really meaningful to me This
displayed my story that I relateto, while another audience
member says, this goes againsteverything I've come to believe.
And that can happen. That'sreality, right? So I just want
(50:17):
to add that all of these voicesshould be heard. And everyone
can have something to say, aslong as we can acknowledge that
everyone's opinion can meansomething. I think that having
conversations about how weproduce and perform operas is
(50:40):
critical. And we have to look ateach one from its historic
context and the current contextthat we seek to stage it in and
ask ourselves what we're saying,by making this art for this
audience. And then again,listening to what they have to
say in response.
Chip Gruen (51:01):
It's interesting. I mean, you know, you alluded to
this earlier, you know, theperil of sanitizing, right, the
collections that were producedin different times, and what
does that look like? And whatare the what are the costs and
benefits of doing that? And, youknow, I think as you allude to
that, it's the productioncompanies that end up make the
(51:23):
making those choices. And Ithink that's interesting in and
of itself to think about howthose choices are made and to
what end.
Jane Fitzpatrick (51:30):
Right, and these companies are relying on
people buying a ticket. They'rerelying on people wanting to see
what they put on. So they reallyhave to be involved and have
their finger on the pulse forhow people are going to feel
about what they put on.
Chip Gruen (51:48):
All right. Well, I think that that's where we're
going to have to leave it fortoday. But Jane Fitzpatrick
thanks so much for appearing onReligionWise, it's been fun.
Jane Fitzpatrick (51:55):
Thank you so much. I look forward to future
episodes. As I said, I'm a hugefan.
Chip Gruen (52:01):
All right, sounds good. This has been
ReligionWise. A podcast producedby the Institute for Religious
and Cultural Understanding ofMuhlenberg College. ReligionWise
is produced and directed byChristine Flicker. For more
information about additionalprogramming, or to make an
inquiry about a speakingengagement, please visit our
website atreligionandculture.com. There
(52:24):
you'll find our contactinformation, links to other
programming and have theopportunity to support the work
of the Institute. Pleasesubscribe to ReligionWise
wherever you get your podcasts.
We look forward to seeing younext time.
Welcome to ReligionWise. I'm your host Chip
Gruen. Today's conversationfeatures Jane Fitzpatrick, a
writer whose work has appearedin "The Interfaith Observer" and
"Appreciate Opera," andcurrently serves as a
contributor to "ReligionMatters." Her beat covers
religion and the arts, inparticular religion and opera. I
(00:26):
think how this conversationemerged is worth a little bit of
consideration. Jane is herself alistener to ReligionWise, and
reached out to us took ourinvitation seriously that, that
if you have a topic that is ofinterest to the topic of the
podcast to reach out, and sowe're so happy that she did.
(00:48):
Even at first blush, thisconfluence of religion and opera
seems like a very fruitful placeto have a conversation. If we
think about both the subjectmatter and the context for opera
over the last several hundredyears, we can see that there are
a lot of examples that we couldpull out and we can talk about,
we, unfortunately, are only toscratch the surface on
(01:11):
particular operas here, but Ithink there's a larger point
that's also interesting toconsider. When we think about
religion and public life, one ofthe things that I think that
we're really interested in is,where does that conversation
happen? Where do we consider theboundaries of religion? Where
does the conversation aboutreligion and its influence on
(01:34):
people, culture, history, etc.,where does that happen? And the
arts is one that admittedly, wehaven't really talked a lot
about on the podcast, but Ithink is a fruitful avenue to
move forward so that when yousee religion depicted, for
example, in opera, how is itdepicted? Is it imagined as an
unambiguous good? Is it imaginedas a place for potential
(01:57):
corruption? Is it imagined asideally, a spiritual endeavor
that is influenced by you know,the foibles and flaws of humans
who participate in it, I mean,we can imagine a lot of
different ways in which theconversation of religion can
happen here. Additionally, oneof the things that I was really
happy to talk about in thisconversation, and you can hear
(02:19):
Jane and I discuss is the waysin which artistic representation
has several lives built into it.
So for example, if a opera isset in the ancient past, that is
one of the contexts if then itis imagined in an operatic
setting in, say, the 19thcentury, that is another
(02:40):
context. And then as it'sperformed in the contemporary
world, that is another contextso that we can see the really
the layers of meaning the layersof interpretive possibility. And
the real understanding thathappens is not only a function
of the Performing Arts in thiscase, but as a function of how
religion functions as well, thetelling of narratives and the
(03:00):
retelling in therecontextualization. So I think
that's super interesting aswell. And finally, I'll just say
that sometimes these things arecoincidentally even more
relevant than you might imagine,at first blush. So you'll hear
conversations about contemporaryevents in Israel and Gaza, and
the Ukraine, as cases in pointwhere we have contemporary
(03:23):
conflict, contemporary issuesbeing distilled right through
artworks that are that are beingperformed, right in the
contemporary context. But we'renot originally intended to speak
to those to those contexts, theyoriginally dealt with other
things. So again, this processof interpretation and
(03:43):
reinterpretation, I think is, isreally key and really
interesting for us to thinkabout. So without further ado,
here's my conversation with JaneFitzpatrick, I hope you enjoy
it. Jane Fitzpatrick, thanks forbeing on ReligionWise.
Jane Fitzpatrick (04:00):
Thank you so much for having me.
Chip Gruen (04:03):
So I wanted to start off with with you and your
vocational trajectory. So youcover religion in the arts, in
particular, religion and opera.
And your work has appeared in anumber of different outlets,
including the "ReligionMatters," "Interfaith Observer"
and "Appreciate Opera," butbeyond your interest in
(04:24):
religion, your professionaltraining has also been in
International Studies. And Ishould also add here, you've had
some experience in operaticperformance as well. Can you
talk about how you came tofollow this beat how you came
around to thinking aboutreligion and opera? It's
actually kind of coincidentallybeen a theme of the last couple
(04:46):
episodes of ReligionWise thatvocational paths are sometimes
unpredictable. So can you talk alittle bit about yours?
Jane Fitzpatrick (04:55):
First of all, I am a huge fan of the podcast.
One reason being that I findseveral of your guests very
relatable. And their work isexceedingly inspiring. So thank
you for that. For me, when I wasvery young, I remember my dad
asking me, What do you want tobe when you grow up? The typical
(05:16):
question to ask a young person,right? For some reason, I always
had a list. So I could neverchoose just one thing. And I
don't think I've grown out ofthat habit in the least. So I
started singing probably aroundmiddle school age, my grandma
was actually an opera singer.
And my mom and I fell in lovewith opera, she would take me to
(05:39):
our local movie theater to seethe Metropolitan Opera's live
broadcasts of their productions.
So that had a big played a bigrole in how I became interested.
But then, of course, I found outthat it's really fun to sing
too. In high school, I foundthat I had a strong interest in
(06:03):
religion, and cultures,particularly through literature,
and symbolism in classicliterature, I just found myself
really drawn to those topics ofreligious parallels. But one,
one of the main reasons I choseto major in religious studies in
college was because I reallyfound that studying religious
(06:28):
traditions encompassed so manydisciplines, under the
humanities umbrella, like Isaid, I've always wanted to be
so many different things. I loveto study languages. I love art
history. So I picked that up incollege. And then I earned my
Master's degree right after ininternational affairs, as you
(06:48):
said, and I was able toconcentrate in religions. But
during those two years, I feltsuch a desperate need to keep
art and especially opera in mylife, I think I've I've run into
many stages in life where I feltlike I needed to choose right,
or something needs to be restedwhile I work on something else,
(07:12):
you know, I need to pursuesomething that will make me
money, I need to prioritize mytime. But I just think that art
making is so critical toemotional and mental well being
for me anyway. So I figured outdifferent ways to incorporate
(07:33):
all of those different passionsand artmaking into my studies.
And I was surprised at the time,but I think now it's pretty
blatantly obvious after done...
after having done so muchresearch that religion,
international affairs and operahave always been uniquely
entwined. And so I'm excited totalk a little bit about that
(07:58):
today.
Chip Gruen (08:01):
Yeah, and so you, you have the opportunity to
think about that in yourwriting, obviously, which is
sort of the grist for ourconversation today. And in that
writing, you feature a number ofparticular operas. And we'll get
to some of those specifics. AndI have ones I want to talk
about, and I welcome you to talkabout particular ones that you
(08:23):
think offer particular insightsare meaningful for you. But I
want to start more generally,and depending on the context,
the composure of an opera, youknow, can choose to make
religion function verydifferently in different pieces,
right from being either anearnest representation that
seeks to offer a religioustruth, to a critique of
(08:46):
religious sentiment or acritique of religious
institutions. I mean, we can seeexamples of many of these
things. We'll talk about some ofthose today. But the opera can
be kind of a blank slate, as youknow, the performing and plastic
arts can be in lots of ways. Sohow do you think about that
confluence of the two of thesethings of opera and religion? Do
you see big picture connectionsthat are a through line your
(09:09):
thinking? Or do you think thateach new project that you think
about or each new opera youthink about is mostly context
specific?
Jane Fitzpatrick (09:17):
I would say when I'm approaching an opera,
that I work with it in such away that considers a set of
various contexts and how itplays with those contexts. So
you can certainly analyze justthe story itself, and then how
the musicality goes with it tocreate an operatic performance.
(09:42):
But a lot of performers evenwill dive into looking further
beyond and seeing where thatstory came from. Who are these
characters via a biblical storyor a moment in history, a
fictionalized story Then youmight be interested in how the
(10:03):
composer chose this narrative,and how they saw it from their
own personal historical context.
And then you can look at thecontext in which the opera then
has been staged, even centurieslater. So, as an example, I
understand that not everyonewho's going to be listening to
this episode will know a wholelot about opera, you may or may
(10:24):
not be familiar withMussorgsky’s Boris Gudonov, as
an example. And we might talk alittle bit about that one later.
But to set the stage in a way,just imagine an American singer,
playing a Russian Tsar duringthe Cold War. That's pretty
significant imagery, right?
(10:46):
There are clearly a lot ofdifferent perspectives we can
talk about in that real lifescenario that did take place.
And not least of them being therole of the Russian Orthodox
Church, it plays a massive rolein that specific opera. And that
can tell us a whole lot aboutRussian culture, about how that
looks when the art forminteracts with current politics,
(11:10):
and world affairs. So to answeryour question, long story short,
there are a lot of specificcontexts that I sort of list out
for myself to explore. And thenI realize that each opera has
its own story to tell indifferent times in different
settings.
Chip Gruen (11:29):
Yeah, well, let's go ahead and talk about that Boris
Gudonov example, I think this isa good place to talk about it as
any that you know, one of thethings you see, this opera is
described as it's considered aquote unquote, celebration of
Russian identity. Right? Soimagining that playing in the
Cold War, right is obviously onecase in point where you talk
(11:52):
about context. But the other isthat in 2022, this was scheduled
to be performed by the PolishNational Opera. And of course,
the Russian invasion of Ukraine,sort of sprung up. And I've got
a quote here, actually, thedirector said in response to
(12:12):
this, they canceled theperformance, they canceled the
run of the show. And he said, Weare based in Warsaw, a city that
vividly remembers the firstbombs that fell from the sky
during the Second World War. Weare deeply affected by the war
in Ukraine and the suffering ofthe Ukrainian people. We admire
the heroism of the Ukrainianswho have stood up to defend
(12:34):
their motherland. Right. Andthat was sort of the the
explanation of the cancellationof that. So I mean, what do you
think of that? I mean, right.
It's obviously a world away fromthe composition of the opera
itself. But of course, arelevant, you know, thing to
think about contemporary contextas well.
Jane Fitzpatrick (12:50):
You know, there's always going to be a
part of me as an opera lover,and a lover of the arts that
wants to be able to appreciateart for art's sake. And I think
that one of my favorite thingsabout going to a theater is that
you can feel like you've leftthe outside world for a few
hours, and you're beingtransported to a new space with
(13:12):
new opportunities. But I alsohave to honor the fact that for
lots of people, includingmyself, at certain times, we can
always leave our identities atthe door and understand a new
set of beliefs, a newperspective, it can be very
challenging. So Boris, goodenough, is celebrated as a
(13:37):
distinctly Russian opera,acknowledging that is simply an
understanding of the history andthe intention of the work and of
the history of Russian culture.
So but it does raise thequestion, then, are we canceling
the work as part of an efforttowards erasure or demonization
of a specific culture? Anartistry? Maybe that sounds
(14:00):
extreme? But if not, then wheredoes that effort in limiting
artistic and cultural exchangein that direction, stop. It's
important to have theconversation, particularly in
the arts, and understanding therole that arts play in society
and International Affairs. And Ithink we should all recognize
(14:22):
that what we create and what wepromote, is always going to mean
something, we can't alwaysescape that. Now, if you have an
opera, of course, that blatantlyputs down certain religious and
minority groups, then theconversations are all the more
critical in talking about whyare we continuing to reproduce
(14:43):
these these works, what, whatdoes it means for us now in
today's world,
Chip Gruen (14:51):
Yeah, so this brings us back I think, to one of the
major I mean, we've alreadytalked about it a little bit
here, but the importance ofstorytelling and narrative right
that those narratives are notare neither disassociated from
the past, though maybe not aperfect representation of the
past, but then can beinterpreted and reinterpreted
and re understood in variousother historical contexts. So
(15:13):
obviously, you know, this isalso true of religion, right,
that religious story, religiousnarrative is important. And you
don't have to read too deeplyinto ritual and performance
studies, before you start to seeconnections between theatrical
performance more generally, and,you know, connections to
religious rites and observance.
I mean, you see so many ritualstudies books, I mean, maybe
(15:35):
they don't start, but they endedup in Greek theatre at some
point, right, that that's asuper important part of that
field, I think. So, religion andopera, you know, fill this need
of storytelling, and I thinksimilar ways. I mean, how much
do you see them as sort ofrhyming with one another as
cultural productions religionand, and opera? Or is there some
(15:56):
aspect of the entertainmentvalue or the performance value
of opera that make it adifferent kind of phenomenon
altogether?
Jane Fitzpatrick (16:08):
I think there are a few ways to take that
question. From a religiousstudies background, we can
certainly say that they severalreligious traditions have
utilized the practice ofreenactment and role playing.
And so sometimes the concept ofperformance gets blurred, or
(16:29):
used in certain ways duringritual, which can be really
interesting. From an artsperspective and acknowledging
that entertainment value. Ithink what is really special
about the arts as a whole, andcertainly the performing arts
space, is that, as I mentioned,sometimes you can't, sometimes
(16:49):
you can, but as an audiencemember, there are times when you
can make a few choices about howyou enter that space, and how
you consume what's being offeredto you. So in light of
discussing interfaithframeworks, including non
religious voices, everyone canfeel welcome to engage with
(17:12):
performance. In this way. Youcan be an outside observer, if
that feels comfortable at thetime, you don't have to feel
like an outsider, you cancertainly have a spiritual
enlightenment from the nosebleedseats. If you feel compelled, I
know, music often makes me cry.
So and whether that's areligious experience, or, you
know, just emotionalfulfillment, there's a lot of
(17:36):
there's a large span for how youconsume and interpret that
experience. Now, as I said, youmight be able to leave personal
identities and beliefs at thedoor for a moment and be open to
seeing the world through adifferent perspective. Put
(17:57):
yourself in someone else'sshoes, for example. Or you may
feel validated and personallyinspired by the traditions and
lived experiences beingportrayed. So what's coming to
mind for me is one of myfavorite works, which is
"Dialogues of the Carmelites" byFrancis Poulenc. It's about a
group of Catholic nuns who choseto die for their faith rather
(18:22):
than assimilate to a secularlife. This was a true story,
from the reign of terror duringthe French Revolution. And I
haven't met anyone thus far, whodoesn't feel a sense of awe when
they watch the final scene ofthat opera, wherein if you're
unfamiliar, the nuns choose towalk to the guillotine, singing
(18:45):
the Salve Regina. Now, even themusic itself is very haunting.
And I personally rememberfeeling very emotional when I
was rehearsing it and performingmyself about a year ago, having
to also serve as the dramaturgefor that production, which is
amazing experience for me. I'vedone a lot of historical
(19:07):
research on this particularwork. So I know that even the
composer was strugglingpersonally, while he was working
on this piece with his faith andthe concept of death. So there's
a lot that you can explorethere, and how opera can be
interpreted whether you see itfor its entertainment, or you
(19:29):
want to dive deeper and you wantto feel what was felt by those
nuns, by Francis Poulenc by theactors in front of you, as an
audience member if you want tosimply relate to those nuns
through a sense of sharedhumanity and bravery standing up
for what they believe in justmore generally. That's
(19:54):
wonderful. Right? I would arguethat's still quite productive in
working towards interfaith peaceamong religious and non
religious peoples in the world.
But at the same time, I'm goingto want to acknowledge that you
can't separate their braveryfrom their devotion to their
faith that's at the core forthem, I think it's important to
(20:17):
understand that they can also beseen as feminists role models,
or defenders of religiousfreedom, I actually wrote a
piece last fall, where I lookedat the sacrifice of the
Carmelites. And their suffering,and then looked at the suffering
of Muslim women in France incontemporary times. And both
(20:40):
groups there just wanted to weartheir religious garb and live
their lives peacefully amongsecular groups as well. But they
were challenged by those secularpolicies. So it was a very
interesting comparison there.
And to sort of round out whatI'm saying, I guess you could
say, come for the free music,stay for a new perspective on
(21:05):
religious experience, or maybeeven have religious experience
for yourself. But then what Ireally encourage is have
conversations outside of thetheater to make the performance,
the entertainment, or artreally, actually mean something
to you and the world that youwant to see.
Chip Gruen (21:27):
Yeah, I think I mentioned in a previous episode,
I'm doing my Religion andPopular Culture class right now
and, you know, I don't know wewill talk a little later maybe
about whether opera is popularculture or not. But the idea of
talking about something iseither religion or not religion,
I think, doesn't make a wholelot of sense for me, right? But
instead, the idea of how cansomething function for the
(21:49):
individuals who areparticipating in it or observing
it or whatever, and it soundslike you would make the case
that that certainly the operacan be a religious experience.
You know, a la somebody likeRudolf Otto or Mircea Eliade or
somebody like that. So let'smove on to another one of the
operas that you highlight inyour writing. One of those is
(22:12):
Giacomo Puccini's Tosca. Somajor themes in this work
include authoritarianism, power,corruption, but the church and
the depiction of religiousvalues serve as both the literal
and figurative backdrop in thestory, in fact, several of the
scenes feature religiouslandscapes or religious
(22:33):
contexts, including the climaxat Castel Sant'Angelo in Rome.
One of your major claims is thattaking religion seriously in the
opera generally, and in thiscase, Puccini's Tosca is
essential to understanding thework and more abstractly opens
(22:53):
new interpretive possibilities,and offers broader commentary or
lenses through which to see theworldview of the composer and
the characters themselves. Canyou help us see about the
functions of religion in Tosca?
And then maybe you could juststart with a quick synopsis and
then and then make the case forthe importance of the religious
imagery there.
Jane Fitzpatrick (23:15):
Sure. Tosca is about a beautiful and devoutly
faithful woman named Tosca whofalls in love with an artist and
political outcast namedCavaradossi. Scarpia is the
chief of police. And he wants todrive Tosca away from
(23:37):
Cavaradossi and into his arms.
Of course, he is the villain,and he uses religion for
nefarious purposes, shall wesay? So Cavaradossi is
eventually taken to prison. He'stortured and set to be executed
for his political rebellions.
However, Scarpia tells Toscathat he will make an order to
(24:04):
fake the execution and letCavaradossi live. So long as
Tosca gives herself to Scarpia.
He ends up being quite roughwith her and though she accepts
the deal for her love, she findsan opportunity during his
advances and stabs him to death.
(24:28):
Tosca then rushes to her lover,where she believes his execution
will be faked, but naturallyScarpia did not keep his word.
So realizing that Cavaradossi isdead, Tosca jumps from the top
of the Castel Sant'Angelo, andthe curtain descends. The Tosca
(24:50):
is a very popular work. If youcan't tell it's really got that
operatic drama down to a tee andit's been popular for a really
long time and staged so manytimes, I would say, and people
often argue that it's theirfavorite, their best, or might
(25:11):
even have been their first operathat they've ever seen. It's
definitely a good conversationpiece for this discussion. And
some of my most favoriteresearch that I've done is on
that last scene where Toscatakes her own life, after
realizing that Cavaradossi isdead. Because there is this one
(25:33):
figure in particular that alwayshaunts me in those final
moments. As I mentioned, thefinal scene takes place atop the
Castel Sant'Angelo, and who isstanding atop the Castel
Sant'Angelo, that is a statue ofSt. Michael, the archangel. And
that statue is a very uniquehistory and role in the history
(25:55):
of Rome, and the CatholicChurch. And one thing that is
special about Tosca, and manyoperas that incorporate
religions, to be sure is thatthere are so many details that
you could single out and pullapart for days. So that statute,
(26:17):
it doesn't sing, it doesn'tmove. But it's always a feature
in the productions of Tosca. Andit's really the last thing that
you see. And that leaves such alasting impact for me anyway.
And just that one element,demonstrates how intense and how
important that religiousbackdrop even though it's not a
(26:39):
living, breathing character, itreally is. I would certainly
describe the presence ofreligion in Tosca as very
intense. So the story is sett inRome, 1800, with, as you said,
real architectural elements thatmake the images of the Catholic
(27:00):
Church and also its engagementwith politic, very vibrant, and
almost consuming for thecharacters and their choices. So
it is literally and figurativelya dramatic backdrop, while
they're praying while they'retalking about morality. But also
(27:22):
while they commit some veryserious mortal sins, you could
certainly do a little dive intopersonal versus
institutionalized faith as wellas true faith versus the
critical manipulation of faithand piety.
Chip Gruen (27:37):
Yeah, and it was we were talking you know, a little
bit back and forth about thisconversation, we were both
expressing our, our admirationand love for, you know, some of
this imagery and, you know, I'mjust gonna geek out for a second
on just Castel Sant'Angelo as aas a backdrop. And anybody who
(27:58):
is has not been to Rome, or ifyou're going to Rome, go make a
plan to visit Castel Sant'Angelobecause it has this very long
history. It was Hadrian, theEmperor Hadrian in the early
second century, his mausoleum,and was later transformed into
this Bulwark fortress, that hassecret tunnels going into that,
(28:20):
you know, into Vatican Cityitself into the people apartment
so that one could could abscondaway from St. Peter's and take
refuge as when when Rome wassacked in the 16th century as
the papal Court did. And so it'sjust such a fascinating place,
right to have this layer overlayer over layer of history,
(28:40):
kind of, similarly to the ideaof what we talked about the
story is told, and then it'sreproduced in opera, and then
it's performed later, just thismulti, you know, the kind of the
layer, the layered effect ofmeaning I think it's just so, so
wonderful, right? And to thinkabout, you know, that ending
image and the religious imageryand the historical imagery and
(29:03):
all the things that are going onthere. It's just, it's a lot of
food for thought, I think. Solet's move on to another opera
this Italian tradition. And youcan't think about Italian opera
without thinking about GiuseppeVerdi. So we're going to do a
necessary Verdi connection. Andhis opera Nabucco. This opera,
(29:25):
rather than just relying on thecontext of religion, like we saw
in Tosca retells with, of coursesubstantial liberties, a
narrative from Hebrewscriptures. Nabucco is the
Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar,and there's high priest
Zechariah. And then there are anumber of fictional characters
(29:46):
that are introduced for thepurposes of the narrative. And
it tells the story about thedestruction of the temple in
Jerusalem to deportation toBabylon, the eventual
restoration to land of Israel,you know, obviously, there's a
lot going on here. What do youthink about the retelling in
(30:06):
this form? Right, the idea ofthis ancient story that is being
sort of recast and reimagined inearly nine, early to mid 19th
century Italy, right, and thenadapted and and represented
again, you know, in thecontemporary world.
Jane Fitzpatrick (30:24):
Yes, artistic liberty is a very important
element to this discussion, andacross many different forms of
religious art. So I'm definitelyglad you brought that up. Opera
loves dramaunapod...unapologetically. So,
as you mentioned, there areseveral characters in Nabucco
(30:45):
that have not been found inhistorical documents, including
the Bible and the story itselfcontains several fictional
details. But this particularwork significantly helped
Verdi's career as a composer andit actually resonated with his
Italian audiences quite a bitduring his time. And it became a
(31:09):
kind of political allegory andinspired Italian nationalism. So
those sentiments are actuallystill relevant for a lot of
people today, specifically, inThe Chorus of the Hebrew Slaves,
Va, pensiero. So despite therebeing some extra drama mixed in
(31:30):
audiences still seem to resonatewith those core themes there,
which is really interesting. AndI think another work that might
help to answer this question,too, is Rossini's Maometto
Secondo. Another Italiancomposer, who saw the Italian
politics of his day wanted tomake his audiences happy.
(31:52):
Rossini composed an opera aboutan Ottoman encounter with the
Venetians. Mehmed II captured anisland governed by the Venetians
in the 1400s. And Rossinidecided to alter the ending of
his own work to demonstrate aVenetian victory instead of the
(32:14):
original, and note thishistorically accurate ending,
wherein the Ottomans succeed inconquering the territory. The
truth of the matter is thatMehmed II probably, though,
it's, I guess, not impossible tonot have a tragic love affair
during his campaign against theVenetians, as depicted in the
(32:36):
opera. And he certainly we doknow, did not die there as to
get in the revision of theopera. But this work has been
performed in both versions, evencenturies later. I should point
out too, that the libretto isnot all that kind towards
Muslims, and the Ottoman Empire.
So it definitely sympathizeswith European Christianity as
(32:59):
the hero of story. Now, MaomettoSecondo is not a great example
for promoting interfaith peace,shall we say. But it's certainly
starts an interestingconversation. And it's
interesting to see how audiencestook what was in front of them,
(33:20):
and made it matter to theirlives, took the art and
entertainment, the performance,and said, I relate to this in
some way. I actually did someresearch about a year ago about
how Rossini's work may reflectthe [inaudible], which was a
European invention, invention ofstudy about the Ottoman Empire.
(33:44):
It was very artistic, but alsovery offensive. So it helped
them at that time, sort ofconceptualize the people that
they were encountering and thatwere coming towards them. It was
not always positive. But that'swhat makes these contexts so
(34:04):
interesting to study and seeinghow place and time can really
make or break an opera in someways. And a composer.
Chip Gruen (34:17):
Yeah. And in speaking of in those contexts
can sometimes be intentional,right? I think Verdi writing in
1852, or 1842, to go back tothat to that example. Right? Is
probably thinking about Italian,you know, unification, right?
When he's thinking about theTemple and thinking about
(34:37):
Jerusalem and Babylonians andall that, but then you can have
something happen that isunpredictable. That sort of puts
the whole thing in a whole newlight. So, you know, as I was
doing preparation for this, Imean, I'm, I'm guilty of not
actually being a follower of theopera so I had to do a little
research to see this when thiswas, but I was interested in
(34:59):
when Nabucco was was performed,you know, recently. And just
coincidentally, it opened onSeptember 28, 2023, and just
closed January 26, 2024. So itwas in its run when the
terrorists, the Hamas terroristattacks happened in southern
Israel in early October onOctober 7. And so we then get
(35:26):
the biblical story, we get anunderstanding of the biblical
story as a telling of an Italiannarrative of independence and
unification. And then we get itunderstood by contemporary
audiences as being a statementof Israeli nationalism or, you
know, an understanding of, youknow, the return to the, to the
(35:47):
land of Israel and so forth.
Obviously hits a lotdifferently, right, for in that
immediate aftermath, you know,and as I was looking at this and
thinking about sort of the powerof that coincidence, I thought,
there has to have been someresponse, right? And in fact, on
October 11, I believe it was,there was a special performance
(36:09):
of the cast of that Chorus ofthe Hebrew Slaves, the Va,
pensiero, that was dedicated tothe lives lost in in those
attacks. I'm haven't found anyparticular evidence, this
doesn't mean it doesn't exist,but one also wonders, you know,
as the response in Gaza happenedas well, right, whether there is
(36:35):
any, I don't know, protest ismaybe too strong a word, but any
ill feelings towards thecontinued production of this
opera that is that is sostaunchly nationalistic in its
tone, again, first for Italiannationalism, but of course,
reinterpreted and reunderstood.
(36:55):
So I don't know. It's just,it's, it's fascinating to see
the afterlife and the, in theway that these things unfold.
Jane Fitzpatrick (37:04):
I have seen some criticism about the recent
production of Nabucco given thecurrent political climate. But
I'm not convinced that thecriticism has been as intense or
perhaps as visible, I'll say, asother productions they've
received in other contexts. Sofor example, in 2014, the Met
(37:28):
the Metropolitan Opera faced alot of controversy for showing a
work called the Death ofKlinghoffer by John Adams,
because many people do feel thatthe work, may be antisemitic in
certain ways, and they don'tagree with the perceived display
of sympathy towards MuslimPalestinian peoples. And there's
(37:51):
also opposing arguments to that,a lot of people feel that that
work is really important, andthat sympathy is resonating with
them quite a lot. It doesn'tseem like the tension was as
high for the recent productionof Nabucco despite these
parallels that you mentioned,and coinciding international
(38:12):
events, I think you could devotea lot of time and perhaps an
entire podcast episode on thatcomparison. But for anyone who's
interested, I think it's about afew things. One of them being
analyzing the prevailingsentiments of majority audience
members, perhaps seeing one ofthe story is as history of
(38:38):
suffering, whereas the othercomes across as a story of
victory has something to do withit. So there's the thematic
differences and how audienceswalk away from it with the
resulting emotions might besomething to look at. There's
certainly a lot that you couldspeculate about there.
Chip Gruen (38:57):
So I want to connect, actually, in a way that
I didn't necessarily foresee,but something else that we
talked about was the relativepopularity and reach of opera.
And I think this might be a goodplace to consider that. Because,
I mean, if this were, forexample, a Broadway show, right,
(39:18):
that it probably would not be ashard to find the controversy as
hard to find, you know, sort ofmore raw emotions. I wonder
about sort of, there is andmaybe we disagree about this,
but I see the opera is a littlebit more esoteric. I mean, a lot
of times it's being performed inanother language, right. It is
(39:42):
something that at least has thethe guise of a particular kind
of social and political classbeing the people who attend. You
know, I wonder about you know,about the opera going public. I
mean, how do you think aboutthis, how do you think about the
reach of opera, how do you seeit as culturally relevant again,
(40:03):
doesn't sound great. I mean,because it's, of course, it's
super culturally relevant, butimportant to the public
conversation about religion orother cultural, political
historical topics.
Jane Fitzpatrick (40:15):
I think American culture certainly has
less of an appreciation foropera, unfortunately. But that
doesn't have, that doesn't haveto be the future. And I
certainly want more people togive opera try. And I think it
is more accessible than a lot ofpeople think. And certainly, if
you can watch a movie withsubtitles, then you can
(40:37):
definitely watch an opera sungin a different language. And in
the vein of religions, I hopethat people will try to see it
more as a vehicle for sharing anopportunity for dialogue and for
peace, rather than for furtherdivision, or just an old
(40:59):
fashioned way of gettingentertainment. I want people to
understand that art is importantoverall. And opera has a lot to
say, as we've talked about, it'snot always the best promoter of
interfaith peace, so to speak,when it's telling an inaccurate
(41:20):
story or mistreating certaincharacters based on their
beliefs, but there can still bea meaningful conversation there,
I think it can still serve a lotof different cultural purposes,
that maybe we're missing out on.
Chip Gruen (41:36):
Yeah, one of the comparisons, you know, and I
mentioned Broadway a minute ago,but one of the comparisons that
that has kept coming up in my mymind is the stage show The Book
of Mormon. And the reason Ibring it up is because, you
know, I have had members of theChurch of Jesus Christ of Latter
(41:58):
Day Saints as guests onInstitute programs here on
campus, I've taken students tothe local ward of the Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter DaySaints, we went on a field trip
at the dedication of the templein Philadelphia a number of
years ago and got a tour. Andwithout fail, it's not students
(42:18):
or public that brings up TheBook of Mormon. It's members of
the church that bring up TheBook of Mormon, and it becomes a
touchstone, that as abusive andunfair as that representation
is, it becomes kind of acommonplace for a conversation
about the church. And so youknow, you talk about the way in
(42:41):
which opera can misrepresent andnot be a fair telling. But I
think you're right, that, thatit is an entry point into into a
narrative all its own.
Jane Fitzpatrick (42:52):
And yeah, I agree, it can be a great
starting point for people toconnect, right? So if that is
the only exposure you've had tothis tradition? Well, let's
start there, have aconversation, talk to someone
who can clarify things who cantake you a little deeper into
the understanding of what thatwork then means to them, what
(43:15):
that represents.
Chip Gruen (43:17):
So I want to kind of as we reach the end here, I want
to come back to a more generalquestion. You know, one of the
things that I'm continuallyconfronted with in my work and
the work of the Institute is theway in which dynamics around you
know, Millennial and Gen Zpopulations towards
(43:38):
institutionalized religion havereally shifted right that the
structures of maybe theirparent's or grandparent's
generation, are not totallyunappealing to all of that newer
generation, but are certainlyless appealing to some right. So
the statistic I always cite hereis that matriculating students
(43:59):
at the university level reportsomething like 40% non
affiliation. And I wonder aboutthe opera here, you know, on a
couple levels, one, I mean, justthe opera get swept up in that
rejection of sort of oldercultural forms, and or do
religious themes in the operabecome less palatable, less
(44:23):
interesting, less useful for anew generation of opera goers?
Jane Fitzpatrick (44:29):
I think a lot of companies have been making an
effort to put on morecontemporary works, that they
think will resonate more withcontemporary and younger
audiences. I think that's been ahuge part of a widespread
initiative there. And in somecases, that has meant perhaps
(44:52):
less religious detail on thenarratives presented, but I
don't know why I think I'vefound that in several cases, the
religious traditions have beenjust as prominent, if not more.
And these works have actuallysought to inspire future
conversations about it. So wetalked about the Death of
(45:13):
Klinghoffer, that's acontemporary work. Another work
called Omar, composed byRhiannon Giddens contemporary
opera about a Muslim man who wasbrought to America on a slave
ship. And after lots of trialsand tribulations, really
unfortunate story, he is gifteda Bible by one of his owners.
(45:38):
And the work actually ends withOmar questioning what this what
this religious exchange, andwhat his own personal religious
beliefs in conjunction with thehorrible realities that he has
had to live through all cometogether to mean. He's asking,
What does this mean? And I thinkthis shows that a lot of
(46:04):
contemporary audiences areactually quite eager to look at
these questions of religiousdivision of what interfaith can
mean, I think this shows thatthe contemporary world remains
very willing and eager toanalyze religion through opera.
(46:28):
I mean, certainly, you mentionedthat we have a growing non
religious population. But Ithink that there's a large
portion of that populationthat's offering a new avenue and
saying, why don't why don't wetalk about this more? Why don't
(46:49):
we talk about these age olddivisions? And why can't we
explore these questions? Becausewe all face similar problems. We
all have to confront death oneday, and we don't know what
happens afterward. And thingslike that, are what religious
traditions often confront,right? So to have conversations
(47:16):
about, why are these two groups,so divided? Let's talk about it.
Is there something there? Well,is this Muslim slave? Is it a
good thing that his slave ownerthat his owner gave him a Bible?
Maybe, maybe not really? Right?
And what can we, what can we sayabout that for our future? What
(47:39):
that can mean, and what we wantthe world to look like?
Chip Gruen (47:45):
I wonder, you know, as you think about this,
obviously, one lens and lensthat we're choosing to use here
is to think about about religionand opera, but almost every
example we've come up with hasended up being some kind of
disproportionate powerrelationship, right? That is,
you know, Tosca being one andThe Dialogues of the Carmelites
(48:08):
being another here, Omar beinganother, you know, I wonder if a
modern art audience isn't moreinterested in those aspects of
the story, being sort of frontand center, rather than the
religious discourses that youand I both happen to be
interested in? And not thatwe're not interested in the
others, but but you know, whatcomes to the foreground, and
(48:28):
what recedes to the backgroundmight be changing as well. All
right, so, um, one of thequestions I like to ask, and I
want to end up here is, youknow, on ReligionWise, I'm very
interested in the, in the waythat we talk about religion in,
you know, that religion isconsidered within public
(48:50):
discourse within the publicconversation. And I wonder, you
know, where you'd want to leaveit here about, you know, what
have we not considered about therole of opera in shaping
conversation or reflectingconversation? You know, what
does opera and the confluence ofopera and public discourse look
like?
Jane Fitzpatrick (49:09):
I think I would just want to recognize,
again, that I'm not trying tosay that all operas should be
used. Certainly the ones thatincorporate religious tradition,
not all of these operas shouldbe used for, quote, unquote,
promoting interfaith peace. Butas you pointed out with Book of
(49:33):
Mormon, it can be such a coolstarting point for conversation.
And that in many cases ismeaningful. And I think what
I'll add to that, then, is thatwe should be listening to the
voices of all the audiencemembers that are walking out. So
(49:54):
one person may say, this workwas really meaningful to me This
displayed my story that I relateto, while another audience
member says, this goes againsteverything I've come to believe.
And that can happen. That'sreality, right? So I just want
(50:17):
to add that all of these voicesshould be heard. And everyone
can have something to say, aslong as we can acknowledge that
everyone's opinion can meansomething. I think that having
conversations about how weproduce and perform operas is
(50:40):
critical. And we have to look ateach one from its historic
context and the current contextthat we seek to stage it in and
ask ourselves what we're saying,by making this art for this
audience. And then again,listening to what they have to
say in response.
Chip Gruen (51:01):
It's interesting. I mean, you know, you alluded to
this earlier, you know, theperil of sanitizing, right, the
collections that were producedin different times, and what
does that look like? And whatare the what are the costs and
benefits of doing that? And, youknow, I think as you allude to
that, it's the productioncompanies that end up make the
(51:23):
making those choices. And Ithink that's interesting in and
of itself to think about howthose choices are made and to
what end.
Jane Fitzpatrick (51:30):
Right, and these companies are relying on
people buying a ticket. They'rerelying on people wanting to see
what they put on. So they reallyhave to be involved and have
their finger on the pulse forhow people are going to feel
about what they put on.
Chip Gruen (51:48):
All right. Well, I think that that's where we're
going to have to leave it fortoday. But Jane Fitzpatrick
thanks so much for appearing onReligionWise, it's been fun.
Jane Fitzpatrick (51:55):
Thank you so much. I look forward to future
episodes. As I said, I'm a hugefan.
Chip Gruen (52:01):
All right, sounds good. This has been
ReligionWise. A podcast producedby the Institute for Religious
and Cultural Understanding ofMuhlenberg College. ReligionWise
is produced and directed byChristine Flicker. For more
information about additionalprogramming, or to make an
inquiry about a speakingengagement, please visit our
website atreligionandculture.com. There
(52:24):
you'll find our contactinformation, links to other
programming and have theopportunity to support the work
of the Institute. Pleasesubscribe to ReligionWise
wherever you get your podcasts.
We look forward to seeing younext time.
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