May 9, 2025 • 40 mins
Spill your ReligiosiTea directly with the show host! Let us know your reactions, stories, and more!
In this Long Steep episode, Adren Warling unpacks the legacy of Francis, the chaos of Trump’s papal cosplay, the rise of Pope Leo XIV, and what it all means for public health, queer dignity, climate collapse, and the politics of salvation. From ordo amoris to holy smoke, this is where theology meets theory, and faith meets fire. Whether you're Catholic or just spiritually nosy, this episode is for you.
When Pope Francis died on Easter Monday 2025, the world lost more than a pope—it lost a spiritual disruptor. His papacy reshaped how Catholicism approached environmental justice, poverty, and global inequality. And now? An American cardinal steps into his sandals.
Francis wasn't just noteworthy for being the first Jesuit pope or the first from Latin America. His leadership style – living in a Vatican guest house, traveling by bus with cardinals, and consistently prioritizing the marginalized – embodied a different vision of spiritual authority. His landmark encyclical Laudato Si' directly connected environmental degradation to public health outcomes, exposing how pollution and resource scarcity disproportionately harm vulnerable populations.
What made Francis truly revolutionary was his willingness to challenge power structures while remaining firmly within Catholic tradition. He never endorsed same-sex marriage or abortion, but shifted focus away from sexual ethics toward economic justice and care for creation. His famous confrontation with American Vice President JD Vance over the concept of "ordo amoris" revealed competing visions of Christianity – one that arranges love in hierarchical order versus Francis's universal embrace that refuses to rank human dignity.
The aftermath of Francis's death brought peculiar American spectacle – from apocalyptic Reddit threads to President Trump's AI-generated images of himself in papal regalia. This bizarre theater revealed something profound about the intersection of religion and politics, showing how easily sacred imagery can be weaponized to promote nationalism and exclusion.
Now Pope Leo XIV (formerly Cardinal Robert Prevost), the first American pope, steps into this complex legacy. With his background in canon law and missionary work in Peru, Leo embodies tensions within Catholicism – between preservation and progress, between doctrinal conservatism and social justice. His papacy arrives at a pivotal moment when questions about climate crisis, migration, healthcare access, and economic inequality require moral frameworks as much as policy solutions.
Whether Catholic or not, we all have a stake in what emerges from the Vatican in coming years. When religious authority shapes how billions understand their responsibility toward the vulnerable, the sick, and our common planetary home, the conversation around faith and health becomes one we ignore at our peril.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
We're spilling tea on religion and health, where
intersections of faith andhealing combine.
On religiosity as this podcastdiscusses religious beliefs,
religious experiences, personaltestimonies and mental and
(00:22):
physical health, some of thecontent may be uncomfortable or
triggering for some listeners.
This is your host, adrian.
The Pope is dead.
(00:49):
Long live the Pope.
On April 21st 2025, an EasterMonday, pope Francis passed away
after 12 years of papacy.
May he rest in peace.
Passed away after 12 years ofpapacy.
May he rest in peace.
In this episode, we willdiscuss the legacy of Pope
(01:14):
Francis, the lunacy of PresidentDonald Trump's bid for the
papacy, a brief discussion onthe conclave and the new pope,
pope Leo XIV the 14th.
This is Religiosity's firstlong, steep episode where we are
taking a deep dive into papallegacy and futurity.
(01:35):
We are going to get afull-bodied steep of the papal
tea and Americana attachments tothe papal throne and, because
this is religiosity, there willbe a little bit of drama, a
little bit of speculation and adeep discussion on what the
papacy has meant and might meanfor public health.
(02:01):
Pope Francis became pope onMarch 13th 2013.
Pope Francis was a Jesuit partof an order of Catholic
monastics who believe in livingamong the people and being with
the people.
As such, he opted to live alittle less decadently as Pope,
(02:21):
living in a Vatican guest houseand traveling with the cardinals
by bus instead of in the papalcar.
In his early papacy, popeFrancis was many firsts as Pope,
the first Jesuit, the firstLatin American hailing from
Argentina, the first person fromthe southern hemisphere and the
(02:44):
first person raised outside ofEurope in over 10 centuries to
become the Pope, pope Francisbegan his journey through the
priesthood in Argentina, thencalled José Mario Borgoglio,
after a series of extraordinaryexperiences, including an
(03:05):
experience in a parish where hefelt the loving presence of God
after taking sacrament.
According to the Vatican'swebsite, pope Francis describes
his calling to the priesthoodthrough this experience as
follows Before going to theparty, I passed by the parish
(03:25):
where I was going, found apriest whom I did not know and
felt the need to go toconfession.
This was an experience ofencounter for me.
I found that someone waswaiting for me, but I don't know
what happened.
I don't remember.
I don't really know why it wasthat priest there whom I didn't
(03:45):
know, why I felt this strangeurge to go to confession, but
the truth is that someone waswaiting for me.
He had been waiting for me fora long time.
After confession, I felt thatsomething had changed.
I was not the same.
I had heard, just like a voice,a call.
I was convinced that I had tobecome a priest.
(04:08):
This experience in faith isimportant.
We say that we must seek God,go to him to ask forgiveness,
but when we go, he is waitingfor us.
He is, first you go a sinner,but he is waiting to forgive you
.
End quote.
(04:31):
José Mario Bergoglio wasordained as a priest by
Archbishop Ramón José Castellanoin 1969 and spent over 50 years
in the Catholic priesthood.
Overall, his earlier priesthoodwas riddled with humanitarian
and social justice issues.
During an Argentinian coup andcivil war, he is reported to
(04:54):
have helped hide people who weretargeted by the regime and help
others flee the country toavoid persecution.
Compassion and humanitarian aidwas a major keystone of his
life in the priesthood and asPope Francis.
He eventually became theArchbishop of Argentina, where
he advocated for the poor andother humanitarian issues,
(05:15):
supporting social justice andthen even distribution of wealth
.
As a Jesuit, he embodied hisconnection to the people,
including the poor, by living inmodesty.
Even as an archbishop, even asa pope, he continued to preach
the word of God, focusing onnarratives that center care for
(05:37):
your fellow man and Jesus'teachings on poverty, charity
and how one ought to treatothers.
José Mario Bergoglio became PopeFrancis in 2013, after the
resignation of Pope Benedict.
He chose the papal name ofFrancis to honor Saint Francis
(06:00):
of Assisi.
The saint who founded theFranciscan Order, chose to live
a life of poverty following theteachings of Jesus order chose
to live a life of povertyfollowing the teachings of Jesus
, the patron saint of Italy,animals and ecology merchants,
and against dying alone.
This seems to be a fitting namefor Pope Francis, who also
chose to follow a humble lifefollowing the teachings of Jesus
.
Pope Francis' papacy was markedby a lot of social justice
(06:23):
change within the Catholic faith.
These changes includingreprioritizing care for the poor
and a less obsessive stance onsex and sexual ethics, including
homosexuality and bodilyautonomy for women seeking
abortions.
To be clear, pope Francis hasnever acknowledged positive
stances on these issues.
(06:43):
He simply felt that thechurch's attention might be
better used to support othercauses.
Pope Francis was known globallyfor his sentiments on LGBTQIA
plus rights and dignity,allowing blessings towards gay
people seeking gay marriagewhile not blessing the union
itself, which was a shift awayfrom his historical stances in
(07:06):
Argentina against thelegalization of same-sex
marriage.
I think Pope Francis recognizedthat for the Catholic Church to
survive, they needed to appealmore to the social changes that
have been occurring amongyounger global demographics,
including a more nuancedperspective on LGBTQIA plus
identities, mental health,bodily autonomy and other issues
(07:29):
.
Francis was a complex andcomplicated pope.
He later backtracked andflip-flopped a bit on his
stances relating to these issues, trying to balance between
social progressivism and lovefor all, while still retaining
the ideological core ofCatholicism, not just as an
institution but as a faith andthe unerring word of God.
(07:54):
Pope Francis cared a great dealabout mercy and being merciful.
He said in reflection on apainting of St Matthew.
Jesus came from healing aparalytic.
As he was leaving, he foundthis man called Matthew.
The gospel says he saw a mancalled Matthew.
And where was this man?
Sitting at the tax booth.
(08:16):
One of those who made thepeople of Israel pay taxes to
give them to the Romans.
A traitor to his country.
These were despised.
The man felt looked down uponby Jesus.
He said to him follow me.
And he got up and followed him.
But what happened?
That is the power of Jesus'gaze.
(08:37):
Surely he looked at him with somuch love, with so much mercy.
That look of the merciful Jesusfollow me, come.
And the other looking sideways,with one eye on God and the
other on money, clinging tomoney, as Caravaggio painted him
.
Just like that, clinging, andalso with a surly gruff look.
And Jesus loving, merciful, andthe resistance of the man who
(09:02):
wanted money he was such a slaveto money falls and he got up
and followed him.
It is the struggle betweenmercy and sin.
But how did the love of Jesusenter that man's heart?
What was the door for it toenter?
Because the man knew he was asinner.
He knew it.
The first condition to be savedis to feel in danger.
(09:22):
The first condition to behealed is to feel sick.
To feel oneself a sinner is thefirst condition for receiving
this merciful gaze.
One may say, father, but is ita grace to feel sinful, really?
For it is to feel the truth,but not sinner in the abstract,
sinner for this, for this, forthis Concrete sin, concrete sins
(09:48):
, and we all have many of them.
Let us go there and let Jesuslook at us with a merciful gaze,
full of love, end quote.
Look at us with a merciful gazefull of love.
End quote.
I like this quote because ofthe callbacks to healing,
especially healing through faithand promoting spiritual health.
This is a great representationof the moral sickness rhetoric
(10:10):
that often permeates religionand religious doctrine that to
be healed is to be divine and tobe divine is to be healed.
This dialectic is important,though it talks about mercy as
much as sin and howacknowledging sin is crucial to
spiritual diagnosis for healing.
It's also interesting that PopeFrancis turned his attention to
(10:31):
this portrait of Matthew, whichwas said to be a favorite of
his when Matthew was the patronsaint of accountants and civil
servants.
Pope Francis was staunchly infavor of serving the poor, which
I know we've discussed already,but was also a huge proponent
of the public good at a globalscale.
Despite his contradictorystatements on LGBTQIA plus
(10:54):
rights or his doctrinal refusalto appoint women as deacons in
the diaspora, he still believedthat spiritual health and
well-being were paramount tohuman good.
He was quoted in an interviewsaying the thing the church
needs most today is the abilityto heal wounds and to warm the
hearts of the faithful.
(11:15):
It needs nearness, proximity.
I see the church as a fieldhospital.
After battle, it is useless toask a seriously injured person.
If he has high cholesterol, youhave to heal his wounds.
Then we can talk abouteverything else, further
highlighting the role of faithin an overall health framework
(11:36):
mental, physical and spiritualthe very crux of this show.
Pope Francis, in his monumentalencyclical Laudato Si, brought
environmental justice and,through that, concerns about
environmental health and humansustainability to the Vatican
and to the forefront of globalCatholicism.
(11:57):
An encyclical is a letter fromthe Pope to all bishops of all
Catholic churches and sets thetone for papal priorities and
directives for the direction ofthe church.
Laudato Si' was monumental forbeing the first encyclical that
was entirely dedicated toenvironmental justice and how
the church might supportenvironmental justice through
(12:18):
doctrinal interpretation andpromoting general welfare.
Laudato Si was titled after aquote from Saint Francis of
Assisi.
Remember him.
This title tracks what the careexpressed throughout the
encyclical for the entire globalcommunity and the harms that
human consumerism andhuman-caused environmental
degradation have had on theworld.
(12:39):
The subtitle of Let Out O SeaOn Care for Our Common Home
further highlights theimportance of environmentalism
in a global context, with allliving beings, because the earth
is a home to us all.
Pope Francis began thisfoundational work with a
commentary on health, whichreads Some forms of pollution
(13:01):
are part of people's dailyexperience.
Exposure to atmosphericpollutants produces a broad
spectrum of health hazards,especially for the poor, and
causes millions of prematuredeaths.
People take sick, for example,from breathing high levels of
smoke from fuels used in cookingor heating.
There is also pollution thataffects everyone, caused by
transport, industrial fumes,substances which contribute to
(13:25):
the acidification of soil andwater, fertilizers, insecticides
, fungicides, herbicides andagrotoxins.
In general.
Technology, which, linked tobusiness interests, is presented
as the only way of solvingthese problems, in fact proves
incapable of seeing themysterious network of relations
(13:45):
between things, and so sometimessolves one problem only to
create others.
End quote.
This is important because itdirectly identifies the
structural determinants ofhealth or the parts of the built
environment and social systemsthat impact health.
These structural determinantsimpact people at different
levels of severity.
As the Pope rightly pointed out, the poor are impacted the most
(14:06):
and have the least resources tomanage the impacts of pollution
and other health hazards.
He was also astute inrecognizing that sometimes the
solutions proposed for reducingor eliminating toxic waste and
other pollution often generatetheir own problems.
Pope Francis later wrote in thisencyclical about the issues of
(14:27):
resource scarcity, particularlywater, and the role water plays
in sustaining life andcritically important access to
health and healthcare.
Important access to health andhealthcare, he says.
Fresh drinking water is anissue of primary importance,
since it is indispensable forhuman life and for supporting
terrestrial and aquaticecosystems.
Sources of fresh water arenecessary for healthcare,
(14:49):
agriculture and industry.
Water supplies used to berelatively constant, but now, in
many places, places demandexceeds the sustainable supply,
with dramatic consequences inthe short and long term.
Large cities dependent onsignificant supplies of water
have experienced periods ofshortage and, at critical
(15:10):
moments, these have not alwaysbeen administered with
sufficient oversight andimpartiality.
Water poverty especiallyaffects Africa, where large
sectors of the population haveno access to safe drinking water
or experience droughts whichimpede agricultural production.
Some countries have areas richin water, while others endure
drastic scarcity.
(15:31):
He then goes on to discuss therole of toxified water in
creating a variety of negativehealth impacts on those who do
not have access to clean water.
Let me read two more excerptsfrom Laudato Si.
Instead of resolving theproblems of the poor and
thinking of how the world can bedifferent, some can only
(15:52):
propose a reduction in the birthrate.
In the birth rate.
At times, developing countriesface forms of international
pressure which make economicassistance contingent on certain
policies of reproductive health.
Yet, while it is true that anunequal distribution of the
population and of availableresources creates obstacles to
development and a sustainableuse of the environment, it must
(16:14):
nonetheless be recognized thatdemographic growth is fully
compatible with an integral andshared development.
To blame population growthinstead of extreme and selective
consumerism on the part of someis one way of refusing to face
the issues.
It is an attempt to legitimizethe present model of
distribution, where a minoritybelieves that it has the right
(16:34):
to consume in a way which hasnever been universalized, since
the planet could not evencontain the waste products of
such consumption.
Besides, we know thatapproximately a third of all
food produced is discarded, andwhenever food is thrown out as
if it were stolen from the tableof the poor.
Still attention needs to bepaid to imbalances in population
(16:56):
density on both national andglobal levels, since a rise in
consumption would lead tocomplex regional situations as a
result of the interplay betweenproblems linked to
environmental pollution,transport, waste treatment, loss
of resources and quality oflife.
End quote.
This quote dissects the globalpolicies by which we enact aid
(17:19):
delivery mechanisms betweencountries.
I think this piece of theencyclical is particularly
important because it discusseshow the countries or
nation-states with the mostresources often dictate or try
to legislate through financialpower the bodies of those who
have less resources, as if tosay they do not deserve to
procreate if they do not haveaccess to the resources needed
(17:41):
to sustain life, as if thoseresources have not been
colonized and controlled by thenations who hold the resources.
It is a poignant and correctcall out of consumerist
capitalist ideals and howcapitalism in the West has been
weaponized to control the bodiesof others for access to
resources we hold.
Mind you, I do think havingpolicies to promote bodily
(18:05):
autonomy, safer sex and optionsfor different reproductive
healthcare practices likecontraception or abortion, are
critical public healthinitiatives.
Is it the place of thoseempowered to dictate those
realities for the parts of theworld who are in the most need,
especially when, as the Popepointed out, those resources are
often discarded as waste whenunused anyway.
(18:26):
It creates a false narrative ofresource scarcity that we have
created to fuel the capitalistengine.
Finally, the last quote I'llpull from this document reads
Yet we can once more broaden ourvision.
We have the freedom needed tolimit and direct technology.
Finally, the last quote I'llpull from this document reads
(18:55):
Liberation from the dominanttechnocratic paradigm does in
fact happen sometimes, forexample, when cooperatives of
small producers adopt lesspolluting means of production
and opt for a non-consumeristmodel of life, recreation and
community.
Or when technology is directedprimarily to resolving people's
concrete problems, truly helpingthem live with more dignity and
less suffering.
Or indeed, when the desire tocreate and contemplate beauty
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manages to overcome reductionismthrough a kind of salvation
which occurs in beauty and inthose who behold it.
An authentic humanity callingfor a new synthesis seems to
dwell in the midst of ourtechnological culture, almost
unnoticed, like a mist seepinggently beneath a closed door.
Will the promise last, in spiteof everything, with all that is
(19:40):
authentic rising up in stubbornresistance?
End quote.
I find it interesting that PopeBrantis was calling out the
technocratic hold on resourcesten years ago that we are so
very crucially witnessing unfoldtoday are so very crucially
witnessing unfold today.
A technocracy happens when aselect group of technological
(20:01):
elite people control thegovernment or business interests
of a nation.
We are seeing this now withpeople like Elon Musk, a
technological entrepreneur,guiding public policy and
slashing budgets of programsthat do good not just for the
United States but for the world,programs like PEPFAR and USAID,
programs that center bothenvironmental justice, economic
(20:24):
justice and public health.
The Pope knew 10 years ago whatour reality would be today,
with the rise of unfetteredcapitalism, consumerism and the
proliferation of technocraticpower through innovation and
resource hoarding.
And the proliferation oftechnocratic power through
innovation and resource hoarding.
He also had the foresight tocall out these structures of
power and describe the impactsthey had and would have on the
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environment and on people,especially the people who cannot
afford to move away, cannotafford to access healthcare or
cannot afford the innovationsthe technocrats are saying will
save us and give us a betterlife.
Pope Francis left behind alegacy of care and commitment to
the global community, not justthe Catholic community, though
(21:05):
obviously that was maybe hisprimary concern.
In his final months of life,the Pope went toe-to-toe with
the United States' politosphere,particularly with Vice
President JD Vance, thesecond-ever Catholic Vice
President of theD.
Vance, the second ever CatholicVice President of the US and a
Catholic convert.
This episode is not about JDVance, so the details of his
(21:26):
conversion to Catholicism mayhave to be teased out in another
episode.
However, our Vice Presidentcertainly has a lot to say about
his interpretation ofliturgical meaning.
Earlier this year he statedthere was a Christian concept of
the order in which a personshould love, ordo amoris as it's
called, a theological frameworkcreated by Augustine of Hippo
(21:47):
and later expounded upon byThomas Aquina.
It starts with God, then thefamily, then the community, then
the nation, then the worldcommunity, then the nation, then
the world.
Interestingly, this is similarto a Buddhist meditation
practice called Metta, spelledM-E-T-T-A, that starts with
directing love towards yourselfand moving outward and broader
(22:08):
over the course of themeditation, including a part of
the exercise that asks you tolove someone.
You probably hate my words here, not the Buddhist canon.
You probably hate my words here, not the Buddhist canon.
However, in both the Buddhistmeditation this hierarchy
resembles, and in Christianvalues of love thy neighbor.
The hierarchy isn't an order oflove, it is a group of concepts
(22:29):
to help us spread out that love.
It is never exclusionary.
Pope Francis directly counteredVance's remarks with his own.
He said Christian love is not aconcentric expansion of
interests that little by littleextend to other persons and
groups.
In other words, the humanperson is not a mere individual
relatively expansive, with somephilanthropic feelings.
(22:52):
The human person is a subjectwith dignity who, through the
constitutive relationship withall, especially with the poorest
, can End.
Quote.
(23:19):
On Easter Sunday, 2025, popeFrancis delivered his final
address, the traditional EasterUrbi et Orbi, which blesses the
world and calls for peace,disarmament and the release of
prisoners.
After the address, the Pope metone final time with the
American Vice President, wherethey exchanged pleasantries.
The day before the Pope hadVance meet with Cardinal Pietro
(23:41):
Perlin to discuss currentinternational events and the
priorities and stances of theChurch on these events.
On April 21st 2025, popeFrancis passed away the internet
, swept in and said he died fromcringe after meeting with the
Vice President, but we know thathe had ongoing health issues
and was previously hospitalizedand unresponsive from a bout of
(24:03):
pneumonia.
The legacy left behind byFrancis was one of global
universalism, expansions ofcompassion and human dignity, a
call to action, to love, asJesus loved the poor, migrants
and refugees and the globalcommunity.
No ordo amoris, just love.
His views on health and feelingcan be summed up in his own
(24:25):
words Health is one of the mostvaluable gifts desired by all
and that in the biblicaltradition, the closeness between
salvation and health has alwaysbeen highlighted, along with
their many and mutualimplications.
The fathers of the church usedto refer to Christ and his work
of salvation with the titleChristus Medicus.
He is the good shepherd whocares for the wounded sheep and
(24:47):
comforts the sick.
He is the good Samaritan whodoes not pass by the injured
person at the roadside butrather, moved by compassion,
cures and attends to him, endquote.
So I ask you, listeners, how doyou carry love without
hierarchy?
So I ask you, listeners, how doyou carry love without
hierarchy?
What would it mean to centerthe sick, the poor and the
(25:14):
planet in your own ordo amoris?
While you let that tea steep,let's talk about what happens
when a pope dies.
After Pope Francis passed onEaster Monday, the world slipped
into mourning and the prophecygirls got to work.
Doomsday chatter lit up theinternet.
Nostradamus predicted the deathof an elderly pope and a
successor who would usher in theend times.
People cited the supposedlylimited number of papal portrait
(25:36):
slots left in St Paul'sBasilica.
Others reached for St Malachi'sprophecy of the popes and
declared that the clock wasticking towards the end.
And, of course, in trueAmerican fashion, christian
nationalists declared thatPresident Donald Trump should
become the next pope, despitenot being Catholic or subtle or
(25:57):
papable, but despite all theapocalyptic Reddit threads and
presidential cosplay.
Here's what actually happenswhen a pope dies.
A conclave is called.
The conclave is a formalgathering of cardinals inside
the Sistine Chapel in VaticanCity to elect the next pope.
Technically, any baptizedCatholic man can be elected, but
(26:18):
in practice it's almost alwayschosen from within the College
of Cardinals.
And yes, it's basically holypolitical theater, full of
rituals, symbolism and arcanepageantry that dramatizes the
spiritual weight of the process.
Cardinals enter the conclavewearing their crimson robes like
theological senators.
They deliberate, they pray andthey vote by writing names on
(26:40):
slips of paper and dropping theminto a special chalice urn.
Ballots are counted until oneman receives a two-thirds
majority.
At the end of each voting round, the ballots are burned.
Black smoke means no decision,white smoke means we have a pope
.
And then a cardinal stepsforward and declares from the
balcony Habemus Papum, we have apope.
(27:03):
The new pontiff is revealed tothe world by name and begins
their reign immediately.
Now, why do I call thispolitical?
Because it is.
The pope isn't just a religiousfigure, he's the spiritual CEO
of one of the largestinstitutions in the world.
When the College of Cardinalselects a pope, they're not just
choosing a theologian, they'reselecting the face of Catholic
(27:26):
diplomacy, social teaching andinstitutional response to global
crises.
When Pope Francis was elected,the cardinals sent a signal the
church was ready to lean intouniversality, humility and
social justice.
He spoke for the poor, formigrants, for the earth.
The next pope might not, andthat matters.
(27:46):
The church has enormous softpower.
When a pope says about LGBTQplus people, about abortion,
about war, about environmentalcollapse, it ripples into
politics, healthcare policy andcultural consciousness across
governments across the globe.
The conclave may be cloaked inincense and Latin prayers, but
(28:07):
its consequences are felt inrefugee camps, clinics,
classrooms and voting boothsaround the world.
Before the conclave was evenformed for the selection of the
new pope, christian nationalistsbegan proclaiming that Donald
Trump would be the perfect papalprince to make the world great
again.
Unfortunately, muga doesn'thave quite the same ring as Maga
(28:30):
.
While I critically have towonder if this started as a joke
, president Trump himself fannedthe flames, posting what
appeared to be an AI-generatedphoto of himself in full papal
attire, not just from hispersonal account but from the
official White House channels.
Now, no one seriously thoughtthis would make him a legitimate
(28:51):
candidate for Pope, but theimagery matters.
It reinforces Trump as a kindof Christian savior for the
American people, his near-deathexperiences reframed as divine
appointment, his establishmentof the White House Office of
Faith, his executive ordertargeting anti-Christian bias.
It's a mythology in the making,one where the gospel of love
(29:12):
thy neighbor becomes deport thyneighbor.
One where God's love, in thisversion of Christianity, is not
universal but specificallyengineered for white American
populists who believe empathy isa sin.
And here's the thing whenreligion is weaponized to
promote political violence orexclude entire populations, it
doesn't just corrupt theology,it becomes a public health issue
(29:35):
.
From trans healthcare bans torefugee denials, this rhetoric
turns sacred doctrine intostate-sanctioned harm.
Let's talk more directly aboutthe conflation of Trump with
Christ.
This isn't just media spectacle.
It's a form of modern politicaltheology.
Imagining Trump as pope, evensatirically, feeds the narrative
(29:58):
that the United States isuniquely favored by God, that
Trump is not just a politicianbut a messiah ordained to
restore divine order throughwhite Christianity.
This thinking blurs the linebetween a very old human man
with a history of lawsuits andthe embodiment of sacred moral
authority.
It's also an empire reboot.
(30:19):
Trump in papal drag isn't justridiculous, it's revealing.
It tells us the Americanimperial psyche isn't done
playing world church.
This is manifest destiny,repackaged as liturgical robes,
(30:39):
insisting the world must besaved by American exceptionalism
and that exceptionalism wears ared hat.
And psychologically, in anation starved for meaning,
people will trade theology fortheater.
Trump as pope is less aboutCatholicism and more about the
deep psychic need to believe insomething, anything that
promises order and chaos.
That's how fascism sells itselfas faith, not force.
I want to say it clearly and asoften as I can this rhetoric is
(31:03):
dangerous, it is divisive and itdegrades the democratic
structures of the US and abroad.
It's no accident that messianicfantasy rose up right as Pope
Francis died.
Where Francis preached mercy,trump promises dominance.
Where Francis asked us to carefor the earth, trump asks us to
(31:23):
conquer it.
And where Francis asked us todismantle empire and love our
neighbors, trump stands in itsskeletal remains, making a lich
out of liberty.
While President Trump was nevera serious candidate for the
papacy, it did go to anotherAmerican Habemus Papum,
(31:44):
introducing Pope Leo XIV,formerly known as Cardinal
Robert Prevost.
Despite my earlier admonishmentof American exceptionalism, it
appears the College of Cardinalshopes to capitalize off of it,
making the United States apolitical and theological
battleground for justice, humanrights, environmentalism and how
(32:05):
we ought to love our neighbors.
With Christian nationalists atour front and the new papacy at
our rear, the debate overmorality has become entwined in
Americana.
The new Pope, leo, who wasproclaimed on May 8th 2025, has
many parallels with Pope Francis, starting with his own round of
firsts.
(32:25):
He is the first person from theUnited States to ascend the
papacy, he is the firstAugustinian pope and is the
first North American to become apope, though Francis will
always be the first from theAmericas.
Robert Prevost was born inChicago, illinois, in 1955 and
entered discernment and seminaryin 1977, taking his solemn vows
(32:45):
on August 29, 1981.
He studied canon law, which arethe rules and regulations that
govern the structures of theCatholic Church, and also taught
canon law while serving in Peru.
This makes him particularlyprimed for church governance,
with an intricate knowledge ofhow it is supposed to be
structured in accordance withscriptural precedents.
This has implications still forparticular social rights issues
(33:10):
, including stances on abortionand same-sex marriage.
Again, the church has neveroffered affirmation of same-sex
marriage or abortion access, andPope Leo is unlikely to deviate
from that doctrine.
Abortion access, and Pope Leois unlikely to deviate from that
doctrine.
He has publicly discussed hishesitation for blessings for
same-sex couples, even withoutblessing the union itself.
While he may carry the gentlerdemeanor of Francis, his
(33:33):
positions remain rooted in canonlaw and theological
conservatism, especially when itcomes to the structure of the
family, gender and sacramentalauthority.
He also is unlikely to elevatewomen to the diacenate.
(33:55):
That said, pope Leo XIV has alsodemonstrated a commitment to
social justice that echoes hispredecessor.
His years of missionary work inPeru, his advocacy for
marginalized communities and hiscritiques of nationalism
suggest that, like Francis, heunderstands the global church as
a body in tension, torn betweenpreservation and progress.
In advocacy of both loving thyneighbor and promoting fair
(34:16):
treatment of migrants andrefugees, will continue to help
these individuals gain access tobetter quality of life, better
access to health and health careand overall better well-being.
His commitment toenvironmentalism also furthers
the Catholic agenda of promotingglobal welfare through
mitigating the climate crises weare seeing unfold and ensuring
better environmental healthconditions at the global scale.
(34:40):
In his first words as Pope, hestood on the balcony of St
Peter's Basilica and said simplyPeace be with all of you.
He honored Francis, he remindedthe world that evil will not
prevail and he said something Ithink we need to hold close
right now With you.
I am a Christian For you, abishop.
This language highlights hiscommitment to empathy and being
(35:03):
a part of the people while alsoserving them.
He's a Christian with otherChristians.
He's a bishop for Catholics,not a bishop over Catholics.
The sense of humility isrefreshing.
We don't know yet what kind oflegacy Leo XIV will lead, but I
do know this the election of anAmerican pope in 2025 is not
(35:25):
just symbolic, it is strategic,and it means the conversation
around justice, mercy and whatit means to be moral will
continue to run through thiscountry's bruised, blessed and
battle-worn soul.
So while the tea is stillbrewing on what Pope Leo's
legacy will be, we have toconsider what the church is now
(35:45):
or what it will become.
The Catholic Church will remainan institution with great power
and influence on the globalstage for some time to come.
They will still need to solvetheir clergy decline problem and
they'll still need to wrestlewith the changing sociopolitical
views of upcoming generationsacross the globe.
Still need to wrestle with thechanging socio-political views
of upcoming generations acrossthe globe.
They will still continue toprovide ecclesiastical, social
(36:07):
and even health services throughtheir initiatives and
Catholic-originated hospitalsand faith-based community
programs.
They'll still provide food forthe poor and bring new members
into the fold.
The biggest questions remain onthe Catholic's stances on sex,
marriage and relationships, andon support for migrants,
refugees and the poor.
Will they continue tocontribute to rhetoric that
(36:30):
denies love to gay Catholics whoalso hold their faith?
Will their stance on divorcechange anytime soon?
Will they continue toacknowledge that the health
rights and family planningdecisions made by different
people with differentreproductive wants and needs as
sinful and anti-Catholic?
Will they continue to advocatefor more resources to the poor
(36:52):
across the globe?
Will they continue to advocatefor the displaced who had to
flee their homes for reasons somany of us could never
understand?
Many of us could neverunderstand?
Will they continue toproliferate the global call to
action to supplant the systemsthat have kept these people poor
, moving and on the cusp ofdisaster each and every day?
So the truth about what thechurch will remain becomes the
(37:15):
weight of morality that guidescountless Earthian citizens, and
how they choose to apply thatweight moving forward will have
undeniable impacts on the healthand well-being of those
countless citizens.
There is an opportunity in eachnew papacy to redirect the
intentionality of canonicaldiscourse into something new,
(37:35):
something more in alignment withthe shifting values of a
globalized society.
They are a moral authority, andmoral authority isn't symbolic,
it's operational.
We just have to wait and seewhat comes out of the Vatican in
the coming days, months andyears.
The incumbency of any newreligious leader is always
(38:00):
filled with anxiety, excitementand a little bit of drama.
Just wait until the next DalaiLama has to be selected through
supernatural means when thetraditional Tibetan society and
the Chinese government fightover who gets control over a
reborn soul.
So why would the election of anew pope be any less so?
We are left with an enormouslegacy created by Pope Francis,
(38:23):
a legacy filled withcontradiction, but an
overarching theme of love,kindness and global investment.
We have seen societal progressplayed out through the
pontifications of the embodimentof Catholic authority.
Whether that legacy continueswith Leo or whether he will
choose his own legacy anddestiny remains to be seen.
(38:43):
Stay critical, stay sharp, beaware of what comes out of the
Vatican, especially in a time ofsuch geopolitical strife and
unrest.
Preserve your spirit, evenbeyond faith.
It's okay to question who youare in these moments, and it's
definitely okay to question thesystems of authority when we
need to know how they will serveand protect us.
(39:03):
We all have a stake in thepapacy, even if we aren't
Catholic.
I'm not Catholic and I did thiswhole episode because it is
that important for thegeopolitical forces we are
seeing today.
Be kind to yourself, be kind toone another.
Remember the smoke may clear,but we still need to breathe,
(39:26):
and that's the religiosity.
Thank you for listening to myfirst long, steep episode where
we really let that tea get rich,dark and full of flavor.
I hope you enjoyed this format.
I hope you learned something.
Thank you for listening.
You can follow me on Instagramat religiosityiosity, or contact
me through the link in the shownotes if you have any questions
(39:47):
or if you'd like to share yourreligiosity.
Be happy, be healthy and bewell.
Bye.
We're spilling tea on religion and health, where
intersections of faith andhealing combine.
On religiosity as this podcastdiscusses religious beliefs,
religious experiences, personaltestimonies and mental and
(00:22):
physical health, some of thecontent may be uncomfortable or
triggering for some listeners.
This is your host, adrian.
The Pope is dead.
(00:49):
Long live the Pope.
On April 21st 2025, an EasterMonday, pope Francis passed away
after 12 years of papacy.
May he rest in peace.
Passed away after 12 years ofpapacy.
May he rest in peace.
In this episode, we willdiscuss the legacy of Pope
(01:14):
Francis, the lunacy of PresidentDonald Trump's bid for the
papacy, a brief discussion onthe conclave and the new pope,
pope Leo XIV the 14th.
This is Religiosity's firstlong, steep episode where we are
taking a deep dive into papallegacy and futurity.
(01:35):
We are going to get afull-bodied steep of the papal
tea and Americana attachments tothe papal throne and, because
this is religiosity, there willbe a little bit of drama, a
little bit of speculation and adeep discussion on what the
papacy has meant and might meanfor public health.
(02:01):
Pope Francis became pope onMarch 13th 2013.
Pope Francis was a Jesuit partof an order of Catholic
monastics who believe in livingamong the people and being with
the people.
As such, he opted to live alittle less decadently as Pope,
(02:21):
living in a Vatican guest houseand traveling with the cardinals
by bus instead of in the papalcar.
In his early papacy, popeFrancis was many firsts as Pope,
the first Jesuit, the firstLatin American hailing from
Argentina, the first person fromthe southern hemisphere and the
(02:44):
first person raised outside ofEurope in over 10 centuries to
become the Pope, pope Francisbegan his journey through the
priesthood in Argentina, thencalled José Mario Borgoglio,
after a series of extraordinaryexperiences, including an
(03:05):
experience in a parish where hefelt the loving presence of God
after taking sacrament.
According to the Vatican'swebsite, pope Francis describes
his calling to the priesthoodthrough this experience as
follows Before going to theparty, I passed by the parish
(03:25):
where I was going, found apriest whom I did not know and
felt the need to go toconfession.
This was an experience ofencounter for me.
I found that someone waswaiting for me, but I don't know
what happened.
I don't remember.
I don't really know why it wasthat priest there whom I didn't
(03:45):
know, why I felt this strangeurge to go to confession, but
the truth is that someone waswaiting for me.
He had been waiting for me fora long time.
After confession, I felt thatsomething had changed.
I was not the same.
I had heard, just like a voice,a call.
I was convinced that I had tobecome a priest.
(04:08):
This experience in faith isimportant.
We say that we must seek God,go to him to ask forgiveness,
but when we go, he is waitingfor us.
He is, first you go a sinner,but he is waiting to forgive you
.
End quote.
(04:31):
José Mario Bergoglio wasordained as a priest by
Archbishop Ramón José Castellanoin 1969 and spent over 50 years
in the Catholic priesthood.
Overall, his earlier priesthoodwas riddled with humanitarian
and social justice issues.
During an Argentinian coup andcivil war, he is reported to
(04:54):
have helped hide people who weretargeted by the regime and help
others flee the country toavoid persecution.
Compassion and humanitarian aidwas a major keystone of his
life in the priesthood and asPope Francis.
He eventually became theArchbishop of Argentina, where
he advocated for the poor andother humanitarian issues,
(05:15):
supporting social justice andthen even distribution of wealth
.
As a Jesuit, he embodied hisconnection to the people,
including the poor, by living inmodesty.
Even as an archbishop, even asa pope, he continued to preach
the word of God, focusing onnarratives that center care for
(05:37):
your fellow man and Jesus'teachings on poverty, charity
and how one ought to treatothers.
José Mario Bergoglio became PopeFrancis in 2013, after the
resignation of Pope Benedict.
He chose the papal name ofFrancis to honor Saint Francis
(06:00):
of Assisi.
The saint who founded theFranciscan Order, chose to live
a life of poverty following theteachings of Jesus order chose
to live a life of povertyfollowing the teachings of Jesus
, the patron saint of Italy,animals and ecology merchants,
and against dying alone.
This seems to be a fitting namefor Pope Francis, who also
chose to follow a humble lifefollowing the teachings of Jesus
.
Pope Francis' papacy was markedby a lot of social justice
(06:23):
change within the Catholic faith.
These changes includingreprioritizing care for the poor
and a less obsessive stance onsex and sexual ethics, including
homosexuality and bodilyautonomy for women seeking
abortions.
To be clear, pope Francis hasnever acknowledged positive
stances on these issues.
(06:43):
He simply felt that thechurch's attention might be
better used to support othercauses.
Pope Francis was known globallyfor his sentiments on LGBTQIA
plus rights and dignity,allowing blessings towards gay
people seeking gay marriagewhile not blessing the union
itself, which was a shift awayfrom his historical stances in
(07:06):
Argentina against thelegalization of same-sex
marriage.
I think Pope Francis recognizedthat for the Catholic Church to
survive, they needed to appealmore to the social changes that
have been occurring amongyounger global demographics,
including a more nuancedperspective on LGBTQIA plus
identities, mental health,bodily autonomy and other issues
(07:29):
.
Francis was a complex andcomplicated pope.
He later backtracked andflip-flopped a bit on his
stances relating to these issues, trying to balance between
social progressivism and lovefor all, while still retaining
the ideological core ofCatholicism, not just as an
institution but as a faith andthe unerring word of God.
(07:54):
Pope Francis cared a great dealabout mercy and being merciful.
He said in reflection on apainting of St Matthew.
Jesus came from healing aparalytic.
As he was leaving, he foundthis man called Matthew.
The gospel says he saw a mancalled Matthew.
And where was this man?
Sitting at the tax booth.
(08:16):
One of those who made thepeople of Israel pay taxes to
give them to the Romans.
A traitor to his country.
These were despised.
The man felt looked down uponby Jesus.
He said to him follow me.
And he got up and followed him.
But what happened?
That is the power of Jesus'gaze.
(08:37):
Surely he looked at him with somuch love, with so much mercy.
That look of the merciful Jesusfollow me, come.
And the other looking sideways,with one eye on God and the
other on money, clinging tomoney, as Caravaggio painted him
.
Just like that, clinging, andalso with a surly gruff look.
And Jesus loving, merciful, andthe resistance of the man who
(09:02):
wanted money he was such a slaveto money falls and he got up
and followed him.
It is the struggle betweenmercy and sin.
But how did the love of Jesusenter that man's heart?
What was the door for it toenter?
Because the man knew he was asinner.
He knew it.
The first condition to be savedis to feel in danger.
(09:22):
The first condition to behealed is to feel sick.
To feel oneself a sinner is thefirst condition for receiving
this merciful gaze.
One may say, father, but is ita grace to feel sinful, really?
For it is to feel the truth,but not sinner in the abstract,
sinner for this, for this, forthis Concrete sin, concrete sins
(09:48):
, and we all have many of them.
Let us go there and let Jesuslook at us with a merciful gaze,
full of love, end quote.
Look at us with a merciful gazefull of love.
End quote.
I like this quote because ofthe callbacks to healing,
especially healing through faithand promoting spiritual health.
This is a great representationof the moral sickness rhetoric
(10:10):
that often permeates religionand religious doctrine that to
be healed is to be divine and tobe divine is to be healed.
This dialectic is important,though it talks about mercy as
much as sin and howacknowledging sin is crucial to
spiritual diagnosis for healing.
It's also interesting that PopeFrancis turned his attention to
(10:31):
this portrait of Matthew, whichwas said to be a favorite of
his when Matthew was the patronsaint of accountants and civil
servants.
Pope Francis was staunchly infavor of serving the poor, which
I know we've discussed already,but was also a huge proponent
of the public good at a globalscale.
Despite his contradictorystatements on LGBTQIA plus
(10:54):
rights or his doctrinal refusalto appoint women as deacons in
the diaspora, he still believedthat spiritual health and
well-being were paramount tohuman good.
He was quoted in an interviewsaying the thing the church
needs most today is the abilityto heal wounds and to warm the
hearts of the faithful.
(11:15):
It needs nearness, proximity.
I see the church as a fieldhospital.
After battle, it is useless toask a seriously injured person.
If he has high cholesterol, youhave to heal his wounds.
Then we can talk abouteverything else, further
highlighting the role of faithin an overall health framework
(11:36):
mental, physical and spiritualthe very crux of this show.
Pope Francis, in his monumentalencyclical Laudato Si, brought
environmental justice and,through that, concerns about
environmental health and humansustainability to the Vatican
and to the forefront of globalCatholicism.
(11:57):
An encyclical is a letter fromthe Pope to all bishops of all
Catholic churches and sets thetone for papal priorities and
directives for the direction ofthe church.
Laudato Si' was monumental forbeing the first encyclical that
was entirely dedicated toenvironmental justice and how
the church might supportenvironmental justice through
(12:18):
doctrinal interpretation andpromoting general welfare.
Laudato Si was titled after aquote from Saint Francis of
Assisi.
Remember him.
This title tracks what the careexpressed throughout the
encyclical for the entire globalcommunity and the harms that
human consumerism andhuman-caused environmental
degradation have had on theworld.
(12:39):
The subtitle of Let Out O SeaOn Care for Our Common Home
further highlights theimportance of environmentalism
in a global context, with allliving beings, because the earth
is a home to us all.
Pope Francis began thisfoundational work with a
commentary on health, whichreads Some forms of pollution
(13:01):
are part of people's dailyexperience.
Exposure to atmosphericpollutants produces a broad
spectrum of health hazards,especially for the poor, and
causes millions of prematuredeaths.
People take sick, for example,from breathing high levels of
smoke from fuels used in cookingor heating.
There is also pollution thataffects everyone, caused by
transport, industrial fumes,substances which contribute to
(13:25):
the acidification of soil andwater, fertilizers, insecticides
, fungicides, herbicides andagrotoxins.
In general.
Technology, which, linked tobusiness interests, is presented
as the only way of solvingthese problems, in fact proves
incapable of seeing themysterious network of relations
(13:45):
between things, and so sometimessolves one problem only to
create others.
End quote.
This is important because itdirectly identifies the
structural determinants ofhealth or the parts of the built
environment and social systemsthat impact health.
These structural determinantsimpact people at different
levels of severity.
As the Pope rightly pointed out, the poor are impacted the most
(14:06):
and have the least resources tomanage the impacts of pollution
and other health hazards.
He was also astute inrecognizing that sometimes the
solutions proposed for reducingor eliminating toxic waste and
other pollution often generatetheir own problems.
Pope Francis later wrote in thisencyclical about the issues of
(14:27):
resource scarcity, particularlywater, and the role water plays
in sustaining life andcritically important access to
health and healthcare.
Important access to health andhealthcare, he says.
Fresh drinking water is anissue of primary importance,
since it is indispensable forhuman life and for supporting
terrestrial and aquaticecosystems.
Sources of fresh water arenecessary for healthcare,
(14:49):
agriculture and industry.
Water supplies used to berelatively constant, but now, in
many places, places demandexceeds the sustainable supply,
with dramatic consequences inthe short and long term.
Large cities dependent onsignificant supplies of water
have experienced periods ofshortage and, at critical
(15:10):
moments, these have not alwaysbeen administered with
sufficient oversight andimpartiality.
Water poverty especiallyaffects Africa, where large
sectors of the population haveno access to safe drinking water
or experience droughts whichimpede agricultural production.
Some countries have areas richin water, while others endure
drastic scarcity.
(15:31):
He then goes on to discuss therole of toxified water in
creating a variety of negativehealth impacts on those who do
not have access to clean water.
Let me read two more excerptsfrom Laudato Si.
Instead of resolving theproblems of the poor and
thinking of how the world can bedifferent, some can only
(15:52):
propose a reduction in the birthrate.
In the birth rate.
At times, developing countriesface forms of international
pressure which make economicassistance contingent on certain
policies of reproductive health.
Yet, while it is true that anunequal distribution of the
population and of availableresources creates obstacles to
development and a sustainableuse of the environment, it must
(16:14):
nonetheless be recognized thatdemographic growth is fully
compatible with an integral andshared development.
To blame population growthinstead of extreme and selective
consumerism on the part of someis one way of refusing to face
the issues.
It is an attempt to legitimizethe present model of
distribution, where a minoritybelieves that it has the right
(16:34):
to consume in a way which hasnever been universalized, since
the planet could not evencontain the waste products of
such consumption.
Besides, we know thatapproximately a third of all
food produced is discarded, andwhenever food is thrown out as
if it were stolen from the tableof the poor.
Still attention needs to bepaid to imbalances in population
(16:56):
density on both national andglobal levels, since a rise in
consumption would lead tocomplex regional situations as a
result of the interplay betweenproblems linked to
environmental pollution,transport, waste treatment, loss
of resources and quality oflife.
End quote.
This quote dissects the globalpolicies by which we enact aid
(17:19):
delivery mechanisms betweencountries.
I think this piece of theencyclical is particularly
important because it discusseshow the countries or
nation-states with the mostresources often dictate or try
to legislate through financialpower the bodies of those who
have less resources, as if tosay they do not deserve to
procreate if they do not haveaccess to the resources needed
(17:41):
to sustain life, as if thoseresources have not been
colonized and controlled by thenations who hold the resources.
It is a poignant and correctcall out of consumerist
capitalist ideals and howcapitalism in the West has been
weaponized to control the bodiesof others for access to
resources we hold.
Mind you, I do think havingpolicies to promote bodily
(18:05):
autonomy, safer sex and optionsfor different reproductive
healthcare practices likecontraception or abortion, are
critical public healthinitiatives.
Is it the place of thoseempowered to dictate those
realities for the parts of theworld who are in the most need,
especially when, as the Popepointed out, those resources are
often discarded as waste whenunused anyway.
(18:26):
It creates a false narrative ofresource scarcity that we have
created to fuel the capitalistengine.
Finally, the last quote I'llpull from this document reads
Yet we can once more broaden ourvision.
We have the freedom needed tolimit and direct technology.
Finally, the last quote I'llpull from this document reads
(18:55):
Liberation from the dominanttechnocratic paradigm does in
fact happen sometimes, forexample, when cooperatives of
small producers adopt lesspolluting means of production
and opt for a non-consumeristmodel of life, recreation and
community.
Or when technology is directedprimarily to resolving people's
concrete problems, truly helpingthem live with more dignity and
less suffering.
Or indeed, when the desire tocreate and contemplate beauty
(19:18):
manages to overcome reductionismthrough a kind of salvation
which occurs in beauty and inthose who behold it.
An authentic humanity callingfor a new synthesis seems to
dwell in the midst of ourtechnological culture, almost
unnoticed, like a mist seepinggently beneath a closed door.
Will the promise last, in spiteof everything, with all that is
(19:40):
authentic rising up in stubbornresistance?
End quote.
I find it interesting that PopeBrantis was calling out the
technocratic hold on resourcesten years ago that we are so
very crucially witnessing unfoldtoday are so very crucially
witnessing unfold today.
A technocracy happens when aselect group of technological
(20:01):
elite people control thegovernment or business interests
of a nation.
We are seeing this now withpeople like Elon Musk, a
technological entrepreneur,guiding public policy and
slashing budgets of programsthat do good not just for the
United States but for the world,programs like PEPFAR and USAID,
programs that center bothenvironmental justice, economic
(20:24):
justice and public health.
The Pope knew 10 years ago whatour reality would be today,
with the rise of unfetteredcapitalism, consumerism and the
proliferation of technocraticpower through innovation and
resource hoarding.
And the proliferation oftechnocratic power through
innovation and resource hoarding.
He also had the foresight tocall out these structures of
power and describe the impactsthey had and would have on the
(20:44):
environment and on people,especially the people who cannot
afford to move away, cannotafford to access healthcare or
cannot afford the innovationsthe technocrats are saying will
save us and give us a betterlife.
Pope Francis left behind alegacy of care and commitment to
the global community, not justthe Catholic community, though
(21:05):
obviously that was maybe hisprimary concern.
In his final months of life,the Pope went toe-to-toe with
the United States' politosphere,particularly with Vice
President JD Vance, thesecond-ever Catholic Vice
President of theD.
Vance, the second ever CatholicVice President of the US and a
Catholic convert.
This episode is not about JDVance, so the details of his
(21:26):
conversion to Catholicism mayhave to be teased out in another
episode.
However, our Vice Presidentcertainly has a lot to say about
his interpretation ofliturgical meaning.
Earlier this year he statedthere was a Christian concept of
the order in which a personshould love, ordo amoris as it's
called, a theological frameworkcreated by Augustine of Hippo
(21:47):
and later expounded upon byThomas Aquina.
It starts with God, then thefamily, then the community, then
the nation, then the worldcommunity, then the nation, then
the world.
Interestingly, this is similarto a Buddhist meditation
practice called Metta, spelledM-E-T-T-A, that starts with
directing love towards yourselfand moving outward and broader
(22:08):
over the course of themeditation, including a part of
the exercise that asks you tolove someone.
You probably hate my words here, not the Buddhist canon.
You probably hate my words here, not the Buddhist canon.
However, in both the Buddhistmeditation this hierarchy
resembles, and in Christianvalues of love thy neighbor.
The hierarchy isn't an order oflove, it is a group of concepts
(22:29):
to help us spread out that love.
It is never exclusionary.
Pope Francis directly counteredVance's remarks with his own.
He said Christian love is not aconcentric expansion of
interests that little by littleextend to other persons and
groups.
In other words, the humanperson is not a mere individual
relatively expansive, with somephilanthropic feelings.
(22:52):
The human person is a subjectwith dignity who, through the
constitutive relationship withall, especially with the poorest
, can End.
Quote.
(23:19):
On Easter Sunday, 2025, popeFrancis delivered his final
address, the traditional EasterUrbi et Orbi, which blesses the
world and calls for peace,disarmament and the release of
prisoners.
After the address, the Pope metone final time with the
American Vice President, wherethey exchanged pleasantries.
The day before the Pope hadVance meet with Cardinal Pietro
(23:41):
Perlin to discuss currentinternational events and the
priorities and stances of theChurch on these events.
On April 21st 2025, popeFrancis passed away the internet
, swept in and said he died fromcringe after meeting with the
Vice President, but we know thathe had ongoing health issues
and was previously hospitalizedand unresponsive from a bout of
(24:03):
pneumonia.
The legacy left behind byFrancis was one of global
universalism, expansions ofcompassion and human dignity, a
call to action, to love, asJesus loved the poor, migrants
and refugees and the globalcommunity.
No ordo amoris, just love.
His views on health and feelingcan be summed up in his own
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words Health is one of the mostvaluable gifts desired by all
and that in the biblicaltradition, the closeness between
salvation and health has alwaysbeen highlighted, along with
their many and mutualimplications.
The fathers of the church usedto refer to Christ and his work
of salvation with the titleChristus Medicus.
He is the good shepherd whocares for the wounded sheep and
(24:47):
comforts the sick.
He is the good Samaritan whodoes not pass by the injured
person at the roadside butrather, moved by compassion,
cures and attends to him, endquote.
So I ask you, listeners, how doyou carry love without
hierarchy?
So I ask you, listeners, how doyou carry love without
hierarchy?
What would it mean to centerthe sick, the poor and the
(25:14):
planet in your own ordo amoris?
While you let that tea steep,let's talk about what happens
when a pope dies.
After Pope Francis passed onEaster Monday, the world slipped
into mourning and the prophecygirls got to work.
Doomsday chatter lit up theinternet.
Nostradamus predicted the deathof an elderly pope and a
successor who would usher in theend times.
People cited the supposedlylimited number of papal portrait
(25:36):
slots left in St Paul'sBasilica.
Others reached for St Malachi'sprophecy of the popes and
declared that the clock wasticking towards the end.
And, of course, in trueAmerican fashion, christian
nationalists declared thatPresident Donald Trump should
become the next pope, despitenot being Catholic or subtle or
(25:57):
papable, but despite all theapocalyptic Reddit threads and
presidential cosplay.
Here's what actually happenswhen a pope dies.
A conclave is called.
The conclave is a formalgathering of cardinals inside
the Sistine Chapel in VaticanCity to elect the next pope.
Technically, any baptizedCatholic man can be elected, but
(26:18):
in practice it's almost alwayschosen from within the College
of Cardinals.
And yes, it's basically holypolitical theater, full of
rituals, symbolism and arcanepageantry that dramatizes the
spiritual weight of the process.
Cardinals enter the conclavewearing their crimson robes like
theological senators.
They deliberate, they pray andthey vote by writing names on
(26:40):
slips of paper and dropping theminto a special chalice urn.
Ballots are counted until oneman receives a two-thirds
majority.
At the end of each voting round, the ballots are burned.
Black smoke means no decision,white smoke means we have a pope
.
And then a cardinal stepsforward and declares from the
balcony Habemus Papum, we have apope.
(27:03):
The new pontiff is revealed tothe world by name and begins
their reign immediately.
Now, why do I call thispolitical?
Because it is.
The pope isn't just a religiousfigure, he's the spiritual CEO
of one of the largestinstitutions in the world.
When the College of Cardinalselects a pope, they're not just
choosing a theologian, they'reselecting the face of Catholic
(27:26):
diplomacy, social teaching andinstitutional response to global
crises.
When Pope Francis was elected,the cardinals sent a signal the
church was ready to lean intouniversality, humility and
social justice.
He spoke for the poor, formigrants, for the earth.
The next pope might not, andthat matters.
(27:46):
The church has enormous softpower.
When a pope says about LGBTQplus people, about abortion,
about war, about environmentalcollapse, it ripples into
politics, healthcare policy andcultural consciousness across
governments across the globe.
The conclave may be cloaked inincense and Latin prayers, but
(28:07):
its consequences are felt inrefugee camps, clinics,
classrooms and voting boothsaround the world.
Before the conclave was evenformed for the selection of the
new pope, christian nationalistsbegan proclaiming that Donald
Trump would be the perfect papalprince to make the world great
again.
Unfortunately, muga doesn'thave quite the same ring as Maga
(28:30):
.
While I critically have towonder if this started as a joke
, president Trump himself fannedthe flames, posting what
appeared to be an AI-generatedphoto of himself in full papal
attire, not just from hispersonal account but from the
official White House channels.
Now, no one seriously thoughtthis would make him a legitimate
(28:51):
candidate for Pope, but theimagery matters.
It reinforces Trump as a kindof Christian savior for the
American people, his near-deathexperiences reframed as divine
appointment, his establishmentof the White House Office of
Faith, his executive ordertargeting anti-Christian bias.
It's a mythology in the making,one where the gospel of love
(29:12):
thy neighbor becomes deport thyneighbor.
One where God's love, in thisversion of Christianity, is not
universal but specificallyengineered for white American
populists who believe empathy isa sin.
And here's the thing whenreligion is weaponized to
promote political violence orexclude entire populations, it
doesn't just corrupt theology,it becomes a public health issue
(29:35):
.
From trans healthcare bans torefugee denials, this rhetoric
turns sacred doctrine intostate-sanctioned harm.
Let's talk more directly aboutthe conflation of Trump with
Christ.
This isn't just media spectacle.
It's a form of modern politicaltheology.
Imagining Trump as pope, evensatirically, feeds the narrative
(29:58):
that the United States isuniquely favored by God, that
Trump is not just a politicianbut a messiah ordained to
restore divine order throughwhite Christianity.
This thinking blurs the linebetween a very old human man
with a history of lawsuits andthe embodiment of sacred moral
authority.
It's also an empire reboot.
(30:19):
Trump in papal drag isn't justridiculous, it's revealing.
It tells us the Americanimperial psyche isn't done
playing world church.
This is manifest destiny,repackaged as liturgical robes,
(30:39):
insisting the world must besaved by American exceptionalism
and that exceptionalism wears ared hat.
And psychologically, in anation starved for meaning,
people will trade theology fortheater.
Trump as pope is less aboutCatholicism and more about the
deep psychic need to believe insomething, anything that
promises order and chaos.
That's how fascism sells itselfas faith, not force.
I want to say it clearly and asoften as I can this rhetoric is
(31:03):
dangerous, it is divisive and itdegrades the democratic
structures of the US and abroad.
It's no accident that messianicfantasy rose up right as Pope
Francis died.
Where Francis preached mercy,trump promises dominance.
Where Francis asked us to carefor the earth, trump asks us to
(31:23):
conquer it.
And where Francis asked us todismantle empire and love our
neighbors, trump stands in itsskeletal remains, making a lich
out of liberty.
While President Trump was nevera serious candidate for the
papacy, it did go to anotherAmerican Habemus Papum,
(31:44):
introducing Pope Leo XIV,formerly known as Cardinal
Robert Prevost.
Despite my earlier admonishmentof American exceptionalism, it
appears the College of Cardinalshopes to capitalize off of it,
making the United States apolitical and theological
battleground for justice, humanrights, environmentalism and how
(32:05):
we ought to love our neighbors.
With Christian nationalists atour front and the new papacy at
our rear, the debate overmorality has become entwined in
Americana.
The new Pope, leo, who wasproclaimed on May 8th 2025, has
many parallels with Pope Francis, starting with his own round of
firsts.
(32:25):
He is the first person from theUnited States to ascend the
papacy, he is the firstAugustinian pope and is the
first North American to become apope, though Francis will
always be the first from theAmericas.
Robert Prevost was born inChicago, illinois, in 1955 and
entered discernment and seminaryin 1977, taking his solemn vows
(32:45):
on August 29, 1981.
He studied canon law, which arethe rules and regulations that
govern the structures of theCatholic Church, and also taught
canon law while serving in Peru.
This makes him particularlyprimed for church governance,
with an intricate knowledge ofhow it is supposed to be
structured in accordance withscriptural precedents.
This has implications still forparticular social rights issues
(33:10):
, including stances on abortionand same-sex marriage.
Again, the church has neveroffered affirmation of same-sex
marriage or abortion access, andPope Leo is unlikely to deviate
from that doctrine.
Abortion access, and Pope Leois unlikely to deviate from that
doctrine.
He has publicly discussed hishesitation for blessings for
same-sex couples, even withoutblessing the union itself.
While he may carry the gentlerdemeanor of Francis, his
(33:33):
positions remain rooted in canonlaw and theological
conservatism, especially when itcomes to the structure of the
family, gender and sacramentalauthority.
He also is unlikely to elevatewomen to the diacenate.
(33:55):
That said, pope Leo XIV has alsodemonstrated a commitment to
social justice that echoes hispredecessor.
His years of missionary work inPeru, his advocacy for
marginalized communities and hiscritiques of nationalism
suggest that, like Francis, heunderstands the global church as
a body in tension, torn betweenpreservation and progress.
In advocacy of both loving thyneighbor and promoting fair
(34:16):
treatment of migrants andrefugees, will continue to help
these individuals gain access tobetter quality of life, better
access to health and health careand overall better well-being.
His commitment toenvironmentalism also furthers
the Catholic agenda of promotingglobal welfare through
mitigating the climate crises weare seeing unfold and ensuring
better environmental healthconditions at the global scale.
(34:40):
In his first words as Pope, hestood on the balcony of St
Peter's Basilica and said simplyPeace be with all of you.
He honored Francis, he remindedthe world that evil will not
prevail and he said something Ithink we need to hold close
right now With you.
I am a Christian For you, abishop.
This language highlights hiscommitment to empathy and being
(35:03):
a part of the people while alsoserving them.
He's a Christian with otherChristians.
He's a bishop for Catholics,not a bishop over Catholics.
The sense of humility isrefreshing.
We don't know yet what kind oflegacy Leo XIV will lead, but I
do know this the election of anAmerican pope in 2025 is not
(35:25):
just symbolic, it is strategic,and it means the conversation
around justice, mercy and whatit means to be moral will
continue to run through thiscountry's bruised, blessed and
battle-worn soul.
So while the tea is stillbrewing on what Pope Leo's
legacy will be, we have toconsider what the church is now
(35:45):
or what it will become.
The Catholic Church will remainan institution with great power
and influence on the globalstage for some time to come.
They will still need to solvetheir clergy decline problem and
they'll still need to wrestlewith the changing sociopolitical
views of upcoming generationsacross the globe.
Still need to wrestle with thechanging socio-political views
of upcoming generations acrossthe globe.
They will still continue toprovide ecclesiastical, social
(36:07):
and even health services throughtheir initiatives and
Catholic-originated hospitalsand faith-based community
programs.
They'll still provide food forthe poor and bring new members
into the fold.
The biggest questions remain onthe Catholic's stances on sex,
marriage and relationships, andon support for migrants,
refugees and the poor.
Will they continue tocontribute to rhetoric that
(36:30):
denies love to gay Catholics whoalso hold their faith?
Will their stance on divorcechange anytime soon?
Will they continue toacknowledge that the health
rights and family planningdecisions made by different
people with differentreproductive wants and needs as
sinful and anti-Catholic?
Will they continue to advocatefor more resources to the poor
(36:52):
across the globe?
Will they continue to advocatefor the displaced who had to
flee their homes for reasons somany of us could never
understand?
Many of us could neverunderstand?
Will they continue toproliferate the global call to
action to supplant the systemsthat have kept these people poor
, moving and on the cusp ofdisaster each and every day?
So the truth about what thechurch will remain becomes the
(37:15):
weight of morality that guidescountless Earthian citizens, and
how they choose to apply thatweight moving forward will have
undeniable impacts on the healthand well-being of those
countless citizens.
There is an opportunity in eachnew papacy to redirect the
intentionality of canonicaldiscourse into something new,
(37:35):
something more in alignment withthe shifting values of a
globalized society.
They are a moral authority, andmoral authority isn't symbolic,
it's operational.
We just have to wait and seewhat comes out of the Vatican in
the coming days, months andyears.
The incumbency of any newreligious leader is always
(38:00):
filled with anxiety, excitementand a little bit of drama.
Just wait until the next DalaiLama has to be selected through
supernatural means when thetraditional Tibetan society and
the Chinese government fightover who gets control over a
reborn soul.
So why would the election of anew pope be any less so?
We are left with an enormouslegacy created by Pope Francis,
(38:23):
a legacy filled withcontradiction, but an
overarching theme of love,kindness and global investment.
We have seen societal progressplayed out through the
pontifications of the embodimentof Catholic authority.
Whether that legacy continueswith Leo or whether he will
choose his own legacy anddestiny remains to be seen.
(38:43):
Stay critical, stay sharp, beaware of what comes out of the
Vatican, especially in a time ofsuch geopolitical strife and
unrest.
Preserve your spirit, evenbeyond faith.
It's okay to question who youare in these moments, and it's
definitely okay to question thesystems of authority when we
need to know how they will serveand protect us.
(39:03):
We all have a stake in thepapacy, even if we aren't
Catholic.
I'm not Catholic and I did thiswhole episode because it is
that important for thegeopolitical forces we are
seeing today.
Be kind to yourself, be kind toone another.
Remember the smoke may clear,but we still need to breathe,
(39:26):
and that's the religiosity.
Thank you for listening to myfirst long, steep episode where
we really let that tea get rich,dark and full of flavor.
I hope you enjoyed this format.
I hope you learned something.
Thank you for listening.
You can follow me on Instagramat religiosityiosity, or contact
me through the link in the shownotes if you have any questions
(39:47):
or if you'd like to share yourreligiosity.
Be happy, be healthy and bewell.
Bye.
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