August 15, 2024 • 25 mins
Hey friends, welcome back to another episode of "Thursday Mornings with Alex and Don"! We are here to tackle a contested phrases in Christian faith: "Love the sinner, hate the sin."
In this episode, we explore the origins of this phrase, its biblical backing, and how Jesus exemplified this concept. Is it really in the Bible? How do we balance love and judgment in our daily lives? Don and Alex break it all down, sharing personal insights and practical advice for living out this challenging principle.
Whether you're a longtime believer or just curious about Christian teachings, this episode is packed with thought-provoking discussion and heartfelt wisdom. So, grab your coffee, sit back, and let's dive in together!
And hey, if you know someone who might be interested in taking over the hosting reins, or if you have any questions, reach out to us at tmadask@gmail.com. We’d love to hear from you!
Watch this Episode on YouTube or RUMBLE!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
You're listening to thursday mornings with alex and don
team ad don is a pastor with 40
years experience and alex is just as curious as you are we look at the most
important and interesting questions about the bible and christian faith so let's
talk about it okay pastor don good morning alex how are you doing good good
(00:24):
good all right everyone well thank you for joining us this week
we are still filming here this will be the second to
last one of these as far as for me in the driver's seat here so again
if you know someone that would
like to take over what i'm doing here the kind of the host the one that has
to upload things to producing and that kind of stuff let us know if you're interested
(00:46):
interested in it at all or if you know someone who is reach out to you know
someone within the church or someone that can get a hold of us yeah email.
Team at ask at gmail.com one of those
things and yeah we'd like to talk to you
to see if we can continue this and keep this thing growing because it
is still growing it's still got a niche audience that's basically
(01:08):
it'll grow about as fast as or grow about as much
as is the time you put into it at this point so cool yep
we'd love to have someone do that and pray for us to
see what this looks like in the future please yes so this next one was gonna
be one single topic oh dear so this was drawn to my attention this one phrase
(01:29):
that had apparently been said a lot a couple weeks ago to a certain thing and
maybe it was the Olympics,
maybe it was that the drag queen's.
Do you like opening ceremonies of the Olympics? That's the only thing I could
think of where it would create that much buzz. But the phrase is love the sinner, hate the sin.
(01:50):
And we've talked about this phrase, I think, in an episode of I think it was
called Attitude of Platitudes or something like that, where we were kind of
seeing, you know, are these biblical?
So the root from this comes from. Oh, boy, it's escaping.
I didn't write it down. I'm sorry, you guys, but if you Google it,
it comes from someone in like the first or second century who said something kind of like that.
(02:12):
And then someone else said something kind of like that.
And then it was kind of attributed to Jesus vaguely.
I don't know anyone who says they think it's in the Bible, but there's some
pushback on this from people who didn't like that Christians were saying it.
Yeah right right they're like that's and the common things are these these things what's not,
(02:34):
jesus is about love that's not so this isn't in the bible jesus is about love
so maybe the very first word is fine love but everything else is junk and then
who are you to call someone a sinner,
why would you judge them for that and those are the two principles there's there's
a lot more to it so the phrase is not in the bible no it isn't but can we infer
(02:56):
it based on what we know and is Is that appropriate to do in any other circumstance?
We can infer it as far as Jesus did.
Okay. And what I think is, and I'm looking for the spot, and it is not coming
right off the top of my head.
I think it's in Luke's Gospel as well as Matthew.
(03:18):
So what Jesus was doing in Luke 17...
He was going about and eating with sinners.
And then he was saying he was, they were wondering. Mark 2.
Oh, that'd be one. That's one of them. And he was being. Oh,
yeah, Matthew, these ones.
(03:39):
Those three. Okay, now you have the act. Yeah. And what he was doing was being
criticized by the Pharisees, you know, the holy rollers, that he was eating
with these people. Yeah. These terrible people.
These tax collectors. Reflectors and sinners.
And we know that as feet anointed with a questionable lady, you know.
(04:01):
And so he was receiving all this and they were upset.
What Jesus did was he ate with them. He was with them.
And then he puts that kicker on there.
It's not the healthy that need a physician, but those who are sick. Right.
And so to me, that brings it. Yeah, we love.
(04:23):
Love we love everybody and we want to love them into the kingdom right and so we will rub shoulders,
with those who are unlovely right but to yeah and we don't like sin right so
there's truth on both halves of that i think it's that piece in the middle that
we as we love the sinner not the sin sin,
(04:46):
how do we navigate that piece?
And because Luke, Paul comes on later on and says, you know,
separate yourself from all that.
And so Paul is saying, you know, get away from those people.
I think it's a little bit of the Pharisee coming out. Right, right, right.
Treat them as tax collectors or sinners. In reality, the gospel that we carry
(05:07):
as Christians is something that we want every sinner to hear.
Right. And we've become silent because of that statement. We love the sinner, hate the sin.
And so I'm not going to expose the sin because I love the sinner.
And you've got to be kidding me.
(05:28):
We need to expose the sin to save the sinner, of which we are all sinners.
But we should be all nudging because of our heart relationship with God.
We should all be nudging into a deeper Christian walk.
That reflects the values of Jesus. Right.
(05:48):
And this is the part that I kind of hinted at last week was the part of our
culture that says, Jesus is just love. You're just supposed to affirm people.
That's not in the Bible. If I have a friend that knows that I have a very destructive
behavior in my life, and they don't address it or they encourage it,
(06:12):
that's not a friendly thing to do.
That's not something that someone who actually cares about you is doing.
They're doing that either because they're doing other crappy things in their
life, and they want to be around someone else who's always also making mistakes.
Stakes so some people go towards that you know i've i've seen that pattern before
(06:35):
where you just want to be with someone who's also maybe messing up as well or
is doing the same things that you're doing because then if both of you are doing
and having a good time then don't feel so bad yeah,
and having a but you know having a friend that's going to point out all your
flaws to you and be critical of you and say you know i wish you know you didn't
do that i don't think that's good for you, sometimes that's hard,
(06:57):
but that's also someone who cares about your well-being.
Right. And I think it's how we point out the sin that's really critical,
because we all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
That's biblical. It comes right out.
But how we talk about sin is important.
So I think in our little pea-picking heads, we realize sin disqualifies us in
(07:21):
our relationship with God.
Yeah. but we do sin yeah so how
do we work with that yeah and then we have people who well if you sin you're
you're lost forever right or you're not saved at all right and so you got those
philosophies coming out of
hebrews chapter 6 verses 4 through 7 so are you saved or aren't you saved.
(07:46):
They would say, if you still sin, you're not saved. Well, I'm sorry. We all sin.
Even the guy who, the Baptist on the other side says, well, you weren't saved because you still sin.
Right. And you just did too.
So, yeah. Well, I mean, yeah, that's that part. I think in Hebrew is when it
says that a sinner is not going to be saved, right?
(08:07):
They use that word. Is it sinner or those who sin? Those, yeah. Yeah.
The passage I'm talking about is it's impossible for somebody to be saved who has done thus and so.
And so it's impossible for those who have once been enlightened,
who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared the Holy Spirit,
(08:27):
who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming
age, if they fall away to be brought back to repentance.
Because to their loss, they are crucifying the son of God all over again and
and subjecting him to public disgrace.
And we need to realize that when we sin as Christians, we are exposing our Savior to disgrace.
(08:50):
That should make some impact on us, that when we sin as Christians.
We should want to confess because we have exposed our Lord.
Right. Yeah, I used to say one of the common retorts or something that someone
says, well, look at all these Christians doing these things.
It's like, well, I would say, yeah, you know, everyone sins,
(09:10):
you know, we still struggle with sin.
And I'm realizing more and more, I was just like, yeah, that's terrible that
they're still choosing to do that.
You know, and I'm not condemning them by any means, but I have no,
I have no authority to do that.
But we also haven't, we also haven't created a place in the church where it's
good and safe to come and confess. Yeah.
(09:33):
And 1 John 1, 9 says, okay, verse 8, if we claim to be without sin,
we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. Right. Right.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and purify
us from all unrighteousness. That's a confession piece.
We should be doing that every Sunday, don't you think? I think.
(09:53):
Catholics got it down. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be
a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
Now, that's pretty hard stuff. Yeah.
So, we do love, we love the sinner, not the sin. Yeah. Yeah.
And that sinner includes all of us. Yeah.
(10:15):
I think of that phrase to try to like, I'll break it into like an equation because
that's where the logical part is for me.
It's like, you know, so love the sinner.
Okay. So like, who is the sinner? Who are we supposed to love?
Well, Jesus says that, you know, love your neighbor as yourself.
So we're commanded to love everyone. Does that mean that everyone's a sinner?
(10:37):
Well, Jesus kind of breaks it down. It's like, well, either you're righteous or you're a sinner.
And I say, okay, okay, let's find somebody to know. So who are the righteous?
So, you know, then we can find in Romans 3, Romans chapter 3, verse 9. Okay.
That Jews and Gentiles are all under the power of sin. Right.
And then also, you know, like, you know, who is righteous?
(11:00):
No, not one of you. No, not one. I forget where that one's from,
but it's in the same chapter, right? Yeah, in 23, in that same chapter.
Yeah. We've all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
That's right. So there he goes.
Everyone's a sinner. Everybody's a sinner. And we're supposed to love them. Right. Right.
And then, yeah, you hate that sin. But are we really defining the goal of the love?
Okay. I mean, if in our English language, that love is pretty benign.
(11:27):
It means basically I don't hate.
Right. So I love a hamburger and I love my wife because that's the same thing. Right.
I don't chew on my wife and she doesn't chew on me either.
So it's not the same thing. When we talk about love in the New Testament,
agape is a sacrificial love that we do for each other for the each other.
(11:50):
In other words, I love my wife and want the best for her, and I protect her,
and I take care of her, and I take her to her appointments, and I go get groceries.
These are things we do because of love.
So when we talk about love the sinner, how far are we going to go for the sinner,
(12:11):
for God's best interest in them?
I mean, we're all created in the image of God. How are we going to bring that out?
Yeah, and that doesn't always mean that you're going to be pointing out their sin to them.
No. And often it won't be that. But maybe we can point them to a better life.
Sure. Through Christ. Mm-hmm.
(12:31):
And so when I think of the alcoholic or the drug addict, I'd love to help them
find a better life. Right.
Because when you get free of addictions that hold you back, you can live a lot
better life. And that's positive. Right.
Right. That's what we need to be doing. Yes. So I just think our love into people
(12:54):
who are sinners needs to be a lot different than just benign love of the English language.
Yeah. I think it needs to be agape that invests.
Investing in them, having that care, that desire to.
Like God does. Yes, exactly. Yeah. See who they are inside and speak to them at the heart level.
Yeah not just for the you know
(13:16):
just to do something good but actually invest in
who they are and who they will be and what they
will be if they choose a different path you know just yeah investing
in them that's a good way to put it is it important to call them or to label
them as a sinner yes and no but don't and don't label them any more than you
(13:40):
label yourself right In fact,
I find it's easier in those kind of conversations to identify myself as a sinner,
saved by grace, much like Martin Luther.
And so if I identify what's the difference between you and me.
Well, your drugs and alcohol have taken you here.
And I know that if I get into certain situations, I could be in the same spot.
(14:06):
And so the difference between you and me is Jesus.
Let me share with you a little Jesus. Mm-hmm. And to me, that gets us a lot
farther than saying, sinner, may I show you the error of your way? Right.
Like that goes over like a lead balloon. Right. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I looked at that too.
I was actually talking to somebody about this recently. And that point that
(14:29):
came up about labeling someone as a sinner, why is that important?
That actually stopped me in my tracks. Because I said, oh, I don't know.
Because I thought I had a really, you know, this is pretty easy to figure out. It's a solid equation.
You know, you can kind of fix the emotional argument that they're making and put some logic into it.
But then why you have to call them a sinner is two parts there.
(14:52):
That's logical and emotional.
And so that kind of calls into question, what is your motive for doing that?
And that's actually very fascinating. Yes.
Because that is something that someone has to derive for themselves for the
most part when you know you need Jesus.
If you don't know you're a sinner, don't think you're a sinner or think you've
done anything wrong, then you would have no reason to actually desire Jesus in my mind.
(15:15):
So then why do Christians think it's okay to say it?
And I kind of came up with, you know, like, if you like look in,
let's say it's on a Facebook
message group or or you know someone says it amidst a heated discussion what
is their goal there you can I feel like you should be able to see because like
every time I've used it it's been as a curbing of the Christian's tongue to
(15:37):
say whoa there love the sinner hate the sin that's not.
There's nothing that they have that is uncommon to any of us inside of them. Right.
Their sin still needs the grace and forgiveness through Jesus.
So don't look at them as being worse than you, right?
(15:57):
Right. In fact, I find it's much more profitable to look at that individual
who's struggling with empathy.
Yeah. Because, I mean, I've lived long enough, been through enough things that
there's often a part of me in counseling working with somebody that I can empathize
(16:20):
with what they're feeling. Yeah.
It doesn't matter what it is. I can, yeah.
I can see why you feel that way. Right. Yeah. That's very, that makes sense.
It doesn't mean it's going to get you a positive outcome.
Right. And so can I offer you another approach to what you're going through?
Yeah. And if we as Christians could just break out of our silos,
(16:43):
if you will, our little church silos,
you know, that we all have created and realize that the communities we're living
in need us to live out our faith in the real time and empathize and love these
people who are experiencing a great deal of brokenness.
And I think we'll find renewal in it. Yeah.
(17:05):
Because as we talk about what we've gone through, with those who need to hear
what we've gone through, not only will we be reaffirmed in how we came out,
but we will share that with others.
And so this sharing of the gospel starts with us.
It doesn't start with who we're seeing is in sin. It starts with us.
(17:25):
And so if we're to love the sinner, we got to get us understanding that is something
we're going to invest in.
That is, if we're going to love the sinner, we're going to invest in that sinner
in a sacrificial way like Jesus did and lay our lives out there.
Because most effectively, they need to hear our story before they can understand
(17:49):
it even applies to their story. Yes.
Yes. Yeah. Sometimes you have to be able to see the work in someone's life of
that salvation, get a little curious, see what's happening there.
And if we get into our heads in the other side of it where we're just going
to be actually saying everyone is a sinner, you're a sinner,
(18:12):
and I hate your sin, and that's not going to build that community.
Because if you think about what one little point I'll make here is that Jesus
used the word sinner eight times.
Two of those times were when he only did it twice when he attributed it to somebody else.
The other times is when he was using it as a label, reflecting back on somebody else's label.
(18:36):
Now, if you want to talk about how often Jesus and the gospel and the Bible
in general talks about not judging others and being a hypocrite for the things
that you are also guilty of, way bigger.
As far as comparisons go, that is a central message to not judge others,
lest you be judged for the same thing.
(18:57):
Are you being a hypocrite? Very important point.
That's Matthew 7. And I still say it's the Jesus example in Matthew 7 probably
puts us in our place as good as any other example because it says, okay,
I want to take this little thing out of your eye without realizing I've got
a telephone pole in my own eye.
(19:20):
The reality is then if I can deal with my telephone pole and remove it and help
you move your speck, I can do it. That's empathy. Yeah.
I've dealt with it. I know what it's like. It feels awful. Let me help you with
yours. That should be the heart of the church.
Loving the sinner.
(19:43):
Well, I can't say it any better than that. I think I better stop.
I mean, it's beautiful. I think there's a lot more also to add to just as far
as like more evidence to love the sinner.
Know what that means. There's so much more in the Bible talking about and not
even exact words, but themes of take a step back, contemplate, see where you're at.
(20:07):
Are you in the right place?
Are you capable of seeing this? Are you being slow to speak?
And are you listening first? First, I heard, is it Francis Chan?
Is that, I think that. This would be consistent with his message.
Okay. He said something at a youth conference recently.
He talked about how, you know, you don't see a lot from what Jesus said from these years.
(20:31):
You know, he was just sitting there being a carpenter, working.
And then all of a sudden this explosion. And that's when he was in his late 30s.
He was 29 33 is 29 to
33 okay the age he was when he was in ministry but
yeah i think a lot of us with the internet and with you
(20:53):
know like it's super easy to start a podcast you guys and and you can think
people are and you can say all these things and you can think you have an audience
there are you know tiktok youtube they will make you think that there's lots
of people listening when you know in fact that it's just a bunch of people scroll
past it on their way to something on their way to a cat video.
Then you're not reflecting upon what Jesus actually wants in your life. Right. Yeah.
(21:18):
So being slow and calculated, understanding others is a far better...
Path yeah you know what i mean only few there aren't very many of us that are
supposed to be you know i don't know preaching i guess would you say well that's
what james says he says what,
don't don't supposed to be a preacher a teacher right i'll be slow to be to
(21:41):
get into that profession and i suppose which i don't know many people i feel
like oh it's someone really having anybody not many of you should presume to
be teachers my brothers because you know that but those who teach will be judged more strictly.
And boy, in this society, it sure is the case. Yeah. Yeah.
(22:01):
That verse has fallen on my heart and reflection and prayer before.
Maybe not the exact words, but along those lines. And it's kind of an important
thing, I think, for this generation to think about a little bit.
Especially before my generation's all gone.
Yeah. We're getting close. okay dude did we cover all of that i'm not keeping
(22:31):
track i just as far as you know,
love the sinner and hate the sin did we touch on that empathy part of it of
culture i think we did didn't we i hope so and i think that's where celebrate
recovery is such a powerful ministry because it has those individuals who have
have had recovery they're celebrating that recovery And then they're drawing
(22:53):
in other people who need that recovery.
Yes. And it becomes a forum where we can freely share and support each other
and walk through the hard times together and.
I'll be honest, I think Celebrate Recovery might be one of our best examples of church.
Yes, absolutely. And what it's supposed to look like. And there's probably a
(23:13):
lot of people that are hurting and not willing to stand up and say.
Right. And I'd invite you, if you haven't ever been part of a Celebrate Recovery
worship service, find one in your community.
There's several in this community now. Are there? And just get a sense of what
that worship's all about. Awesome.
(23:33):
There's nothing more worshipful than a life that's been redeemed.
Amen. I like that. Will you pray us out? Can do that.
Heavenly Father, we thank you for your great love and mercy.
We thank you for this opportunity to be part of others' lives and that they
gave us this time to listen.
We pray for those who are, this message might've come to heart and be with them, Lord.
(23:59):
Give them a sense of your guidance by your Holy Spirit, get them in the right
spot so that they feel that love that you would like them to feel to transform their lives.
And may a peace beyond all understanding go with us this day in Jesus' precious name. Amen.
Amen. Excellent prayer.
(24:20):
Everyone, thank you for joining us through this long conversation.
Again, we'll have one more. Yeah, 25 minutes. It's got there.
Wendy. Yeah. On one topic. Well done.
You can really stretch those out. Way to go. I'm windy. I'm a preacher.
What can I say? All right. Well, everyone, thanks for joining us,
(24:41):
and we will see you all next week. Lord willing. Bye.
Thanks again for joining us for this week's episode. We are both having a ton
of fun making these videos and episodes.
And if you're having fun, too, please tell a friend about this and help us to grow this mission.
Thank you and God bless.
You're listening to thursday mornings with alex and don
team ad don is a pastor with 40
years experience and alex is just as curious as you are we look at the most
important and interesting questions about the bible and christian faith so let's
talk about it okay pastor don good morning alex how are you doing good good
(00:24):
good all right everyone well thank you for joining us this week
we are still filming here this will be the second to
last one of these as far as for me in the driver's seat here so again
if you know someone that would
like to take over what i'm doing here the kind of the host the one that has
to upload things to producing and that kind of stuff let us know if you're interested
(00:46):
interested in it at all or if you know someone who is reach out to you know
someone within the church or someone that can get a hold of us yeah email.
Team at ask at gmail.com one of those
things and yeah we'd like to talk to you
to see if we can continue this and keep this thing growing because it
is still growing it's still got a niche audience that's basically
(01:08):
it'll grow about as fast as or grow about as much
as is the time you put into it at this point so cool yep
we'd love to have someone do that and pray for us to
see what this looks like in the future please yes so this next one was gonna
be one single topic oh dear so this was drawn to my attention this one phrase
(01:29):
that had apparently been said a lot a couple weeks ago to a certain thing and
maybe it was the Olympics,
maybe it was that the drag queen's.
Do you like opening ceremonies of the Olympics? That's the only thing I could
think of where it would create that much buzz. But the phrase is love the sinner, hate the sin.
(01:50):
And we've talked about this phrase, I think, in an episode of I think it was
called Attitude of Platitudes or something like that, where we were kind of
seeing, you know, are these biblical?
So the root from this comes from. Oh, boy, it's escaping.
I didn't write it down. I'm sorry, you guys, but if you Google it,
it comes from someone in like the first or second century who said something kind of like that.
(02:12):
And then someone else said something kind of like that.
And then it was kind of attributed to Jesus vaguely.
I don't know anyone who says they think it's in the Bible, but there's some
pushback on this from people who didn't like that Christians were saying it.
Yeah right right they're like that's and the common things are these these things what's not,
(02:34):
jesus is about love that's not so this isn't in the bible jesus is about love
so maybe the very first word is fine love but everything else is junk and then
who are you to call someone a sinner,
why would you judge them for that and those are the two principles there's there's
a lot more to it so the phrase is not in the bible no it isn't but can we infer
(02:56):
it based on what we know and is Is that appropriate to do in any other circumstance?
We can infer it as far as Jesus did.
Okay. And what I think is, and I'm looking for the spot, and it is not coming
right off the top of my head.
I think it's in Luke's Gospel as well as Matthew.
(03:18):
So what Jesus was doing in Luke 17...
He was going about and eating with sinners.
And then he was saying he was, they were wondering. Mark 2.
Oh, that'd be one. That's one of them. And he was being. Oh,
yeah, Matthew, these ones.
(03:39):
Those three. Okay, now you have the act. Yeah. And what he was doing was being
criticized by the Pharisees, you know, the holy rollers, that he was eating
with these people. Yeah. These terrible people.
These tax collectors. Reflectors and sinners.
And we know that as feet anointed with a questionable lady, you know.
(04:01):
And so he was receiving all this and they were upset.
What Jesus did was he ate with them. He was with them.
And then he puts that kicker on there.
It's not the healthy that need a physician, but those who are sick. Right.
And so to me, that brings it. Yeah, we love.
(04:23):
Love we love everybody and we want to love them into the kingdom right and so we will rub shoulders,
with those who are unlovely right but to yeah and we don't like sin right so
there's truth on both halves of that i think it's that piece in the middle that
we as we love the sinner not the sin sin,
(04:46):
how do we navigate that piece?
And because Luke, Paul comes on later on and says, you know,
separate yourself from all that.
And so Paul is saying, you know, get away from those people.
I think it's a little bit of the Pharisee coming out. Right, right, right.
Treat them as tax collectors or sinners. In reality, the gospel that we carry
(05:07):
as Christians is something that we want every sinner to hear.
Right. And we've become silent because of that statement. We love the sinner, hate the sin.
And so I'm not going to expose the sin because I love the sinner.
And you've got to be kidding me.
(05:28):
We need to expose the sin to save the sinner, of which we are all sinners.
But we should be all nudging because of our heart relationship with God.
We should all be nudging into a deeper Christian walk.
That reflects the values of Jesus. Right.
(05:48):
And this is the part that I kind of hinted at last week was the part of our
culture that says, Jesus is just love. You're just supposed to affirm people.
That's not in the Bible. If I have a friend that knows that I have a very destructive
behavior in my life, and they don't address it or they encourage it,
(06:12):
that's not a friendly thing to do.
That's not something that someone who actually cares about you is doing.
They're doing that either because they're doing other crappy things in their
life, and they want to be around someone else who's always also making mistakes.
Stakes so some people go towards that you know i've i've seen that pattern before
(06:35):
where you just want to be with someone who's also maybe messing up as well or
is doing the same things that you're doing because then if both of you are doing
and having a good time then don't feel so bad yeah,
and having a but you know having a friend that's going to point out all your
flaws to you and be critical of you and say you know i wish you know you didn't
do that i don't think that's good for you, sometimes that's hard,
(06:57):
but that's also someone who cares about your well-being.
Right. And I think it's how we point out the sin that's really critical,
because we all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
That's biblical. It comes right out.
But how we talk about sin is important.
So I think in our little pea-picking heads, we realize sin disqualifies us in
(07:21):
our relationship with God.
Yeah. but we do sin yeah so how
do we work with that yeah and then we have people who well if you sin you're
you're lost forever right or you're not saved at all right and so you got those
philosophies coming out of
hebrews chapter 6 verses 4 through 7 so are you saved or aren't you saved.
(07:46):
They would say, if you still sin, you're not saved. Well, I'm sorry. We all sin.
Even the guy who, the Baptist on the other side says, well, you weren't saved because you still sin.
Right. And you just did too.
So, yeah. Well, I mean, yeah, that's that part. I think in Hebrew is when it
says that a sinner is not going to be saved, right?
(08:07):
They use that word. Is it sinner or those who sin? Those, yeah. Yeah.
The passage I'm talking about is it's impossible for somebody to be saved who has done thus and so.
And so it's impossible for those who have once been enlightened,
who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared the Holy Spirit,
(08:27):
who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming
age, if they fall away to be brought back to repentance.
Because to their loss, they are crucifying the son of God all over again and
and subjecting him to public disgrace.
And we need to realize that when we sin as Christians, we are exposing our Savior to disgrace.
(08:50):
That should make some impact on us, that when we sin as Christians.
We should want to confess because we have exposed our Lord.
Right. Yeah, I used to say one of the common retorts or something that someone
says, well, look at all these Christians doing these things.
It's like, well, I would say, yeah, you know, everyone sins,
(09:10):
you know, we still struggle with sin.
And I'm realizing more and more, I was just like, yeah, that's terrible that
they're still choosing to do that.
You know, and I'm not condemning them by any means, but I have no,
I have no authority to do that.
But we also haven't, we also haven't created a place in the church where it's
good and safe to come and confess. Yeah.
(09:33):
And 1 John 1, 9 says, okay, verse 8, if we claim to be without sin,
we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. Right. Right.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and purify
us from all unrighteousness. That's a confession piece.
We should be doing that every Sunday, don't you think? I think.
(09:53):
Catholics got it down. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be
a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
Now, that's pretty hard stuff. Yeah.
So, we do love, we love the sinner, not the sin. Yeah. Yeah.
And that sinner includes all of us. Yeah.
(10:15):
I think of that phrase to try to like, I'll break it into like an equation because
that's where the logical part is for me.
It's like, you know, so love the sinner.
Okay. So like, who is the sinner? Who are we supposed to love?
Well, Jesus says that, you know, love your neighbor as yourself.
So we're commanded to love everyone. Does that mean that everyone's a sinner?
(10:37):
Well, Jesus kind of breaks it down. It's like, well, either you're righteous or you're a sinner.
And I say, okay, okay, let's find somebody to know. So who are the righteous?
So, you know, then we can find in Romans 3, Romans chapter 3, verse 9. Okay.
That Jews and Gentiles are all under the power of sin. Right.
And then also, you know, like, you know, who is righteous?
(11:00):
No, not one of you. No, not one. I forget where that one's from,
but it's in the same chapter, right? Yeah, in 23, in that same chapter.
Yeah. We've all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
That's right. So there he goes.
Everyone's a sinner. Everybody's a sinner. And we're supposed to love them. Right. Right.
And then, yeah, you hate that sin. But are we really defining the goal of the love?
Okay. I mean, if in our English language, that love is pretty benign.
(11:27):
It means basically I don't hate.
Right. So I love a hamburger and I love my wife because that's the same thing. Right.
I don't chew on my wife and she doesn't chew on me either.
So it's not the same thing. When we talk about love in the New Testament,
agape is a sacrificial love that we do for each other for the each other.
(11:50):
In other words, I love my wife and want the best for her, and I protect her,
and I take care of her, and I take her to her appointments, and I go get groceries.
These are things we do because of love.
So when we talk about love the sinner, how far are we going to go for the sinner,
(12:11):
for God's best interest in them?
I mean, we're all created in the image of God. How are we going to bring that out?
Yeah, and that doesn't always mean that you're going to be pointing out their sin to them.
No. And often it won't be that. But maybe we can point them to a better life.
Sure. Through Christ. Mm-hmm.
(12:31):
And so when I think of the alcoholic or the drug addict, I'd love to help them
find a better life. Right.
Because when you get free of addictions that hold you back, you can live a lot
better life. And that's positive. Right.
Right. That's what we need to be doing. Yes. So I just think our love into people
(12:54):
who are sinners needs to be a lot different than just benign love of the English language.
Yeah. I think it needs to be agape that invests.
Investing in them, having that care, that desire to.
Like God does. Yes, exactly. Yeah. See who they are inside and speak to them at the heart level.
Yeah not just for the you know
(13:16):
just to do something good but actually invest in
who they are and who they will be and what they
will be if they choose a different path you know just yeah investing
in them that's a good way to put it is it important to call them or to label
them as a sinner yes and no but don't and don't label them any more than you
(13:40):
label yourself right In fact,
I find it's easier in those kind of conversations to identify myself as a sinner,
saved by grace, much like Martin Luther.
And so if I identify what's the difference between you and me.
Well, your drugs and alcohol have taken you here.
And I know that if I get into certain situations, I could be in the same spot.
(14:06):
And so the difference between you and me is Jesus.
Let me share with you a little Jesus. Mm-hmm. And to me, that gets us a lot
farther than saying, sinner, may I show you the error of your way? Right.
Like that goes over like a lead balloon. Right. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I looked at that too.
I was actually talking to somebody about this recently. And that point that
(14:29):
came up about labeling someone as a sinner, why is that important?
That actually stopped me in my tracks. Because I said, oh, I don't know.
Because I thought I had a really, you know, this is pretty easy to figure out. It's a solid equation.
You know, you can kind of fix the emotional argument that they're making and put some logic into it.
But then why you have to call them a sinner is two parts there.
(14:52):
That's logical and emotional.
And so that kind of calls into question, what is your motive for doing that?
And that's actually very fascinating. Yes.
Because that is something that someone has to derive for themselves for the
most part when you know you need Jesus.
If you don't know you're a sinner, don't think you're a sinner or think you've
done anything wrong, then you would have no reason to actually desire Jesus in my mind.
(15:15):
So then why do Christians think it's okay to say it?
And I kind of came up with, you know, like, if you like look in,
let's say it's on a Facebook
message group or or you know someone says it amidst a heated discussion what
is their goal there you can I feel like you should be able to see because like
every time I've used it it's been as a curbing of the Christian's tongue to
(15:37):
say whoa there love the sinner hate the sin that's not.
There's nothing that they have that is uncommon to any of us inside of them. Right.
Their sin still needs the grace and forgiveness through Jesus.
So don't look at them as being worse than you, right?
(15:57):
Right. In fact, I find it's much more profitable to look at that individual
who's struggling with empathy.
Yeah. Because, I mean, I've lived long enough, been through enough things that
there's often a part of me in counseling working with somebody that I can empathize
(16:20):
with what they're feeling. Yeah.
It doesn't matter what it is. I can, yeah.
I can see why you feel that way. Right. Yeah. That's very, that makes sense.
It doesn't mean it's going to get you a positive outcome.
Right. And so can I offer you another approach to what you're going through?
Yeah. And if we as Christians could just break out of our silos,
(16:43):
if you will, our little church silos,
you know, that we all have created and realize that the communities we're living
in need us to live out our faith in the real time and empathize and love these
people who are experiencing a great deal of brokenness.
And I think we'll find renewal in it. Yeah.
(17:05):
Because as we talk about what we've gone through, with those who need to hear
what we've gone through, not only will we be reaffirmed in how we came out,
but we will share that with others.
And so this sharing of the gospel starts with us.
It doesn't start with who we're seeing is in sin. It starts with us.
(17:25):
And so if we're to love the sinner, we got to get us understanding that is something
we're going to invest in.
That is, if we're going to love the sinner, we're going to invest in that sinner
in a sacrificial way like Jesus did and lay our lives out there.
Because most effectively, they need to hear our story before they can understand
(17:49):
it even applies to their story. Yes.
Yes. Yeah. Sometimes you have to be able to see the work in someone's life of
that salvation, get a little curious, see what's happening there.
And if we get into our heads in the other side of it where we're just going
to be actually saying everyone is a sinner, you're a sinner,
(18:12):
and I hate your sin, and that's not going to build that community.
Because if you think about what one little point I'll make here is that Jesus
used the word sinner eight times.
Two of those times were when he only did it twice when he attributed it to somebody else.
The other times is when he was using it as a label, reflecting back on somebody else's label.
(18:36):
Now, if you want to talk about how often Jesus and the gospel and the Bible
in general talks about not judging others and being a hypocrite for the things
that you are also guilty of, way bigger.
As far as comparisons go, that is a central message to not judge others,
lest you be judged for the same thing.
(18:57):
Are you being a hypocrite? Very important point.
That's Matthew 7. And I still say it's the Jesus example in Matthew 7 probably
puts us in our place as good as any other example because it says, okay,
I want to take this little thing out of your eye without realizing I've got
a telephone pole in my own eye.
(19:20):
The reality is then if I can deal with my telephone pole and remove it and help
you move your speck, I can do it. That's empathy. Yeah.
I've dealt with it. I know what it's like. It feels awful. Let me help you with
yours. That should be the heart of the church.
Loving the sinner.
(19:43):
Well, I can't say it any better than that. I think I better stop.
I mean, it's beautiful. I think there's a lot more also to add to just as far
as like more evidence to love the sinner.
Know what that means. There's so much more in the Bible talking about and not
even exact words, but themes of take a step back, contemplate, see where you're at.
(20:07):
Are you in the right place?
Are you capable of seeing this? Are you being slow to speak?
And are you listening first? First, I heard, is it Francis Chan?
Is that, I think that. This would be consistent with his message.
Okay. He said something at a youth conference recently.
He talked about how, you know, you don't see a lot from what Jesus said from these years.
(20:31):
You know, he was just sitting there being a carpenter, working.
And then all of a sudden this explosion. And that's when he was in his late 30s.
He was 29 33 is 29 to
33 okay the age he was when he was in ministry but
yeah i think a lot of us with the internet and with you
(20:53):
know like it's super easy to start a podcast you guys and and you can think
people are and you can say all these things and you can think you have an audience
there are you know tiktok youtube they will make you think that there's lots
of people listening when you know in fact that it's just a bunch of people scroll
past it on their way to something on their way to a cat video.
Then you're not reflecting upon what Jesus actually wants in your life. Right. Yeah.
(21:18):
So being slow and calculated, understanding others is a far better...
Path yeah you know what i mean only few there aren't very many of us that are
supposed to be you know i don't know preaching i guess would you say well that's
what james says he says what,
don't don't supposed to be a preacher a teacher right i'll be slow to be to
(21:41):
get into that profession and i suppose which i don't know many people i feel
like oh it's someone really having anybody not many of you should presume to
be teachers my brothers because you know that but those who teach will be judged more strictly.
And boy, in this society, it sure is the case. Yeah. Yeah.
(22:01):
That verse has fallen on my heart and reflection and prayer before.
Maybe not the exact words, but along those lines. And it's kind of an important
thing, I think, for this generation to think about a little bit.
Especially before my generation's all gone.
Yeah. We're getting close. okay dude did we cover all of that i'm not keeping
(22:31):
track i just as far as you know,
love the sinner and hate the sin did we touch on that empathy part of it of
culture i think we did didn't we i hope so and i think that's where celebrate
recovery is such a powerful ministry because it has those individuals who have
have had recovery they're celebrating that recovery And then they're drawing
(22:53):
in other people who need that recovery.
Yes. And it becomes a forum where we can freely share and support each other
and walk through the hard times together and.
I'll be honest, I think Celebrate Recovery might be one of our best examples of church.
Yes, absolutely. And what it's supposed to look like. And there's probably a
(23:13):
lot of people that are hurting and not willing to stand up and say.
Right. And I'd invite you, if you haven't ever been part of a Celebrate Recovery
worship service, find one in your community.
There's several in this community now. Are there? And just get a sense of what
that worship's all about. Awesome.
(23:33):
There's nothing more worshipful than a life that's been redeemed.
Amen. I like that. Will you pray us out? Can do that.
Heavenly Father, we thank you for your great love and mercy.
We thank you for this opportunity to be part of others' lives and that they
gave us this time to listen.
We pray for those who are, this message might've come to heart and be with them, Lord.
(23:59):
Give them a sense of your guidance by your Holy Spirit, get them in the right
spot so that they feel that love that you would like them to feel to transform their lives.
And may a peace beyond all understanding go with us this day in Jesus' precious name. Amen.
Amen. Excellent prayer.
(24:20):
Everyone, thank you for joining us through this long conversation.
Again, we'll have one more. Yeah, 25 minutes. It's got there.
Wendy. Yeah. On one topic. Well done.
You can really stretch those out. Way to go. I'm windy. I'm a preacher.
What can I say? All right. Well, everyone, thanks for joining us,
(24:41):
and we will see you all next week. Lord willing. Bye.
Thanks again for joining us for this week's episode. We are both having a ton
of fun making these videos and episodes.
And if you're having fun, too, please tell a friend about this and help us to grow this mission.
Thank you and God bless.
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