December 15, 2024 • 23 mins
Today we discuss how the traditional B2B sales and marketing approach is becoming obsolete as we chat with author Ray Hartjen. This episode guarantees a wealth of insights into the ever-evolving world of B2B sales and marketing, driven by the digital-first expectations of modern buyers. Ray shares his expertise on how companies can transform their strategies to cater to today's empowered B2B buyers who crave seamless, B2C-like experiences. Learn why outdated tactics like cold calls and gated content are losing their edge and how embracing transparent pricing can position your business ahead of the competition.
As we unpack the shift in B2B buyer behavior, Ray highlights the rise of AI-driven processes and the preferences of digital-native generations for real-time information. This conversation is a must-listen for those ready to reimagine their marketing plays and enhance buyer experiences.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Eric Eden (00:01):
Today we have an exciting topic.
We are talking about revenueorchestration, and what exactly
does the new era of B2B salesand marketing look like?
We have the perfect guest tohelp us talk through it.
Author Ray Hartgen.
Welcome to the show.
Ray Hartjen (00:20):
Hello Eric, thank you so much for having me on
Remarkable Marketing.
I'm completely stoked abouthaving this conversation with
you, so thank you for theopportunity.
Appreciate it.
Eric Eden (00:30):
Why don't we start off by you sharing just a little
bit about who you are and whatyou do?
Ray Hartjen (00:47):
writer, a musician and a content marketer.
For the last 10 years I haveworked in SaaS software and I've
run complete marketingdepartments for smaller
companies and I kind ofspecialize in content, where I
consider myself a full stackmarketer.
But my strengths lie increating content.
Eric Eden (01:01):
Content is quite often the key, and I know you've
written four books.
Your latest book on revenueorchestration, is on Amazon,
correct?
Ray Hartjen (01:14):
Yes, it's a short, 90-minute read, eric.
It's my effort to kind of getout into the space for us B2B
revenue team professionals, thisnew paradigm that we have to
shift to a new model of going tomarket driven primarily by B2B
buyers.
I like to draw parallels, eric,with today's B2B buyers.
(01:34):
They have been changing theirapproach to seeking products,
solutions, experiences and thelike for years, but they hadn't
really made that bigfast-forward jump, the
incremental change, until thepandemic struck, and they're
very much motivated by theseworld-class B2C experiences that
(01:55):
they've enjoyed for 10 years ormore.
Right, you know, when a B2Bbuyer is buying for their
personal self through a B2Cchannel, they are, first of all,
they're digitally empowered.
They're digital first.
They have transparent pricing,they're able to compare
alternatives on the fly and theycan make their purchase
decision without speaking to asingle person.
(02:17):
And they love that and they dothat.
They do that with a budget of$20, $50 or something like that.
Then they go to the job usingthe same computer many times and
they're thinking well, I needto buy a service, a solution I
need to solve for a problem, Ihave a challenge, an obstacle,
or seize an opportunity.
They have a budget of $20,000,$50,000.
(02:40):
And what do they experience?
Do they experience thatworld-class?
Eric Eden (02:50):
buying journey that they have in their b2c channels?
Ray Hartjen (02:51):
no, they don't have to struggle to find customer
success stories and they don'tlike gated assets and they don't
like cold calls.
So you know, we're looking at afrom a b2b marketing
perspective.
We're looking at a playbookthat we have.
We have all these great playsthat have proven successful in
the past.
We we just have to reimaginehow we go to market with those
plays so we can meet thecustomer where they are, when
they're there, with theinformation and the data that
they need.
Eric Eden (03:14):
Some people have told me this year they think B2B
marketing, as it's been for thelast five years, is broken,
which is a different way ofsaying what you're saying,
because I think people who arenot evolving their strategies
are finding that these thingsdon't work of, you know, cold
(03:35):
calls and trying to get peopleto fill out forms, to wait for a
couple of days to get a callfrom you then to schedule a
meeting.
People want a more digitalfirst approach where they can
just get the information theyneed and have a much better
buying experience.
Even five years ago, I think,some of the analyst firms, like
(03:56):
Forrester, were saying that 80%of the buyer journey happens
before they talk to asalesperson, and my guess is I'm
interested in your opinion onthis my guess is that it's gone
even further.
I think most people wouldprefer for it to be 95% or 99%
before they talk to asalesperson.
What is your view of it?
Ray Hartjen (04:16):
Yeah, first of all, when you say the B2B
go-to-market process is broken,well, it's not broken if it
works right.
So you know there are B2Bcompanies out there enjoying
success.
I kind of define whether itworks or not is based on what
the competition is doing right.
And I like to look at pricingand packaging exercises.
If anyone out there has everbeen involved in a pricing and
(04:37):
packaging exercise, particularlywith a technology company, it
is a struggle.
It is three to six months ofcross-functional work with
everybody in the organization,from engineering to product to
the revenue team, customerservice.
It is hard to do.
Research shows that today's B2Bbuyer want to have transparent
(05:01):
pricing available on the web.
They do not want to have.
For years we've always thoughtof pricing as a very bottom of
funnel type of concept.
We'll get into that in thenegotiations when we have an
account executive and theprospective customer negotiating
.
We'll get to pricing.
But now they're viewing that asan ante into the game.
They want transparent pricing.
Now, if nobody offerstransparent pricing in vertical,
(05:22):
that's not necessarily aproblem, yet your buyer is not
happy.
We're not making it easy forthe buyer to buy, but you're not
behind any competitors.
But as soon as that firstcompetitor offers transparent
pricing on the web, then you'vegot to.
If you have not at leaststarted your pricing and
packaging exercise, you've got aproblem.
You've got a three to six monthcatch up, and nobody can afford
(05:44):
three to six months beingbehind their competitor, right?
So is the process broken?
Yeah, it's broken if it doesn'twork.
It's maybe not broken if itdoesn't work, but I'm kind of
figuratively, you know, shakingyou by the shoulders.
You got to wake up, man.
Today's B2B buyer is decidedlydigital first right.
Most of them are digitalnatives.
They are tremendously skilledat search and comparisons and
(06:10):
they don't want to deal withsales and marketing until they
have to on their terms.
And so be wary of that.
Don't just shoehorn yourcustomer into your past paradigm
of click on your request demoor, you know, have a gated
content, a gated form for yourcontent.
Give us your contactinformation knowing that you're
(06:32):
going to have an SDR or BDRgiving you a call.
People don't want that.
There's actually cloakingcompanies out there.
Our test box is one of them,where a prospective customer can
cloak their interest all theway through awareness, education
, consideration and evennegotiation for purchase.
The solution provider excuse medoesn't even know the
(06:53):
customer's name until theprocess is done.
Just the fact that there's abusiness out there that exists
shows you what customers wantand what they don't want.
Eric Eden (07:03):
That's super interesting, I think.
The unit economics the waythings were done five, 10 years
ago, with having SDRs and directsellers who could do complete
handholding and would feed acustomer all the information.
The problem with that model isthat it's just too expensive for
(07:23):
a lot of companies these daysand it's not the way.
More crucially, like you said,that people want to buy and I
think that, and a lot ofcompanies in particular, let's
pick on SaaS companies a littlebit, A lot of SaaS companies
instead of doing the extra workand I find it has been a lot of
(07:45):
extra work to design processesthat are digital first and
prospects can just go through itand can buy.
It's a lot more work instead ofjust saying, oh, we'll have the
salesperson, just talk to himabout that.
People use that as a crutchinstead of just designing it in
an intuitive way that peoplecould just on the website figure
(08:07):
it out and not have to talk tosomebody.
So I think that's maybe the onething that a lot of the B2C
companies have gotten correct.
Ray Hartjen (08:16):
You know what the tenement of all sales marketing
is make it easy for yourcustomer to buy right, and
there's a lot of B2C companiesout there that make it very easy
for you to buy.
In fact, sometimes you buy tooquickly.
It's like, oh, that was oneclick, okay, well, hopefully
I'll like it when it comes intothe mail.
You've seen the B2B space.
People try freemium types ofproducts, free trials, things
(08:38):
like that.
That's it.
That's giving it a bit of a,you know, a nod toward changing
buying behaviors.
So, so those are really goodthings to think about.
And but you know, we, asrevenue team professionals, we
have to be kind of nimble in ourapproach and be willing to
think innovatively.
(08:59):
You know, it wasn't that longago where, you know ago, where
an account executive might havemultiple SDRs working for him or
her.
Now it's probably more the casewhere there's one SDR, btr
working for multiple AEs.
But if you're trying torearrange your headcount
allotment with SDRs and BDRs,remember a chief revenue officer
or a head of sales.
They don't really want to getrid of SDRs because that's your
(09:19):
pipeline for your AE, right?
Why do you want to get rid ofyour best bench?
But you need those SDRs andBDRs to do something.
You can never have enough leads, have you, eric?
Have you ever met a salespersonwho had enough leads?
Eric Eden (09:34):
Well enough qualified leads no A lot of
times they have leads, but theseones aren't good.
Ray Hartjen (09:40):
There's always just like one more I need.
I need one more, at least onemore, one more, but you know
there's a you know, when youcome over to the marketing side
of the house, then it's thedifference between lead
generation and demand generation.
You know, and demand generationthat longer tail type of
approach that eventually paysoff in leads.
But you have to keep.
The SDRs have to eat right.
They eat what they hunt and soyou have to give them something
(10:01):
to hunt.
So it's a big conversationthroughout the entire revenue
team what's our go-to-marketmodel, what's it look like and
how does it appeal to ourprospective customers and even
our existing customers?
And it takes sales, it takesmarketing.
I've always talked about themas being two wings on the same
bird and they need to becoordinated.
But you need to throw everybodyin there.
(10:23):
That's a customer-facingfunction, particularly customer
success.
Customer success is soimportant in customer retention.
It's so expensive to get acustomer.
Let's keep them there, right.
Let's upsell them if we can,let's cross-sell if they can,
but at the very least we need tokeep their business.
So, eric, you and I will bestanding there at the table.
Here comes the runners, that'sthe buyer, and they're on their
(10:43):
buying journey, the marathon,and as they come up to our table
, we're going to supply themwith whatever they might need at
the time, you know in the formof data.
What data do you need?
Are you starting right out?
Do you even know that there'san opportunity that exists?
That's when it's search withkey terms and show you how that
(11:07):
we have a product or a service,a solution, an experience that
can help you seize anopportunity or solve for a
problem or what have you.
So we give you that informationand then, eric, you and I pop
in our shuttle, we go to thenext aid station.
As they're continuing theirjourney, what else do they need
to facilitate their buyingjourney?
What's the information that wecan get them?
How do we continue to win atsearch, particularly during
(11:30):
education and awareness phases,so they can understand, from our
perspective, our point of view,how we add the most value our
solution and, from ourperspective, our point of view,
how we add the most value oursolution, our experience, our
product or what have you offersthe more value.
So there's a lot of levers topush.
The good news is is the skillsalready exist in the B2B revenue
teams?
Right, the skills are there,the experiences are already
(11:53):
there.
They just need to be reappliedbecause the buyer is in control
now.
We are not in control.
So what's that paradigm shiftlook like and how do we change
up the levers that we push andpull along to manage our
business so that the buyers canlead their journey?
We can help facilitate it, getit to a buying decision and
hopefully it's in our favor.
Eric Eden (12:12):
Are there a couple B2B brands that you think are
good examples that are embracingthe new digital first strategy
that you're talking about?
Ray Hartjen (12:23):
I think there's a lot of other companies that are
still struggling coming to termswith this.
We are so busy from a B2Bperspective, on a revenue team
perspective, that we kind offall into these bad habits.
How many times have we gone toan event and then, after you
know, after the event, said youknow, how can we make this just
even better?
You know, those areconversations that we need to
(12:45):
have three months ahead of theevent.
You know, and tee up the event.
Or when people show up at theevent a trade show, for example
they know I got to get to booth1002.
Check out the remarkablemarketing guys because they've
been talking about this 1002.
Check out the remarkablemarketing guys because they've
been talking about this and thishas piqued my interest.
I mean, we as B2B professionals, we want to have that
human-to-human conversationright.
Trade shows and events thoseare great opportunities to do it
(13:06):
, but we don't want it to be atstep one of the buying journey.
Let's get them almost into aclosing position at that point
in time.
Same can be said for webinars.
I can go on for eight episodes,eric, talking about how B&B
marketers just get dependent onthis old webinar model and,
instead of really working.
A value-added webinar to makeit part of an inclusive,
(13:28):
integrated, comprehensivecampaign, to really optimize the
effectiveness of it.
We tend to take the easy wayout.
It's going to be four weeksfrom now.
We're going to send out anemail once a week for three
weeks and at the end of it we'regoing to send out a recap email
with a link and we'll put thelink as a gated asset on our
website.
That's the cookbook, right?
(13:49):
That doesn't work.
Eric Eden (13:50):
I mean it works.
Ray Hartjen (13:51):
It doesn't work optimally.
Eric Eden (13:54):
Yeah, I mean it worked much better 10 years ago
than it does today.
You know it's interestingthere's 700,000.
Bdrs, or SDRs, in the US,approximately, and just over a
million direct sellers workingfor SaaS or tech companies is
(14:15):
some of the research that I'veseen, and I actually saw a
presentation from the co-founderof Sixth Sense, who now has a
new company called OneMind, ofSixth Sense, who now has a new
company called OneMind, and it'sactually a very digital first
(14:35):
strategy where AI agents will dothe entire SDR BDR process and
they will also do the directsales process using AI agents
that sound like humans and havereasoning, and it'll even do
account management and it willjump on a Zoom with you and pull
up slides and give you all theinformation you need, and I
(14:56):
think a lot of people are okaywith that sort of experience
just to get the information,versus insisting and talking.
They need to talk to asalesperson.
I think a lot of people areokay with that.
A lot of people are okay usingautomated phone systems for, you
know, getting help when they'rebooking a flight.
I think a lot of people, from adigital first perspective, are
very interested in just gettingthe information in real time,
(15:20):
and so I think that a lot ofthese things are very
interesting, leaning into thenew buyer behavior you're
talking about, right.
Ray Hartjen (15:30):
Yeah, and when you're a prospective customer,
the difference is are you beingserved or are you being sold?
Are you doing it on yourtimeline and you getting the
information when you want it, orare you having your day
interrupted by phone calls andemails?
Are you getting spammed?
Who's got the initiative?
Who's driving control?
Who's being served?
Who you getting spammed?
So it's who's got theinitiative?
Who's driving control?
(15:50):
Who's being served?
Who's being sold to?
And I think you're absolutelyright, and I think the
marketplace is, as we becomemore comfortable in speaking
with reasoning machines,there'll be a preference perhaps
to lean in that direction,particularly for data not being
sold, being served.
Eric Eden (16:10):
I don't think that the AI agents at this moment, in
November 2024, are there, but Ithink my prediction for 2025 is
they will be there, and thenthe question is going to be how
good are they?
How long does the process take?
Is there bumps in the road?
I'm sure there'll be all ofthose things, but I think it's
(16:33):
going to happen because theprocesses we're using for the
last five or 10 years, likewe've been discussing, have just
proved to be pretty inefficientand, if we're being honest, a
lot of the people the hundredsof people that I've worked with
that were SDRs did not love thatjob.
Like appointment setting issomething that deserves to be
(16:54):
automated.
They just did it because theyneeded a paycheck, and so I
think those people will go onand find other work, more
strategic things, buildingbetter skills that help them
grow in their career.
So I don't really think it'sabout job replacement, but it is
about providing a differentbuyer experience that's better
for the buyer and more efficientfor the company.
(17:16):
That's the win-win right.
Ray Hartjen (17:18):
Yeah, and it'll be important with those agents AI
agents to measure conversion.
You know how do we want tofacilitate the buying journey
and what are going to be theconversion metrics as we advance
along.
You know AI has been promptingcustomer success and service
people for a couple of years now.
Eric Eden (17:33):
Yeah, I think it'll get better.
It's not perfect today.
I think there's also theconcern about inaccurate
information, but one thingunderscores why buyer behavior
is changing.
When you think aboutgenerational buyers and Gen Z,
like my daughters, who areteenagers, they don't even
(17:54):
remember a time beforeeverything was on demand.
They're like what do you mean?
We have to wait to a certaindate or time to watch this TV
show this week?
That's dumb.
I've never even heard of that.
Like they don't understand it.
You know this thing about.
Oh, just be patient, you knowwe'll get back to you in a few
days.
Like, people are like no, peopleare like on demand in real time
(18:16):
.
They want information and theywant it in a compelling way.
And I think it's sort of likeother trends related to that.
It's just sort of how peopleare moving away from doing
Google searches like they'vedone over the last 25 years and
now it's sort of like searchanywhere.
They'll search for news andinformation and stuff on
(18:38):
Instagram and TikTok or chat,gpt and so, yeah, google has
some competition now and that'sfor marketers a real head
scratcher because we haven'tseen that it's been so dominant
for the last 20 years.
So I think things are changing,like you said, and the buyer
(18:59):
behaviors are changing for somegood reasons there and I
encourage everyone to take alook at your book.
But is there any one or twoinsights that you would tease
that make it worth thatinvestment for people and time?
Ray Hartjen (19:08):
Yeah, it's a good question, eric, and you know I
want to build upon the fact thatyou're talking about your
daughters and their B2C journeyswith you know content and on
demand.
You know the workforce isgetting younger.
Those digital natives now makeup a larger part of the
workforce and they're going toget even a bigger part of the
workforce.
They're digital natives and soyou know, understand that.
(19:30):
You know your buyer, your B2Bbuyer, is not the same buyer
that they were 20 years ago.
In a lot of cases not even thesame buyer they were, you know,
five, seven years ago.
Digital natives are popping inthere.
Digital natives have adifferent way of doing things
and that kind of tilts ourfunnel on its head.
You know 41% of Gen Z and 29%of millennials check review
(19:52):
sites as the first step in theirbuying journeys.
And a lot of us veteran B2Brevenue team members, we've
always thought of referralcustomers and customer success
stories, review sites.
We've always thought those asend of funnel assets that we
hand out.
And then you know, you thinkabout it, these new B2B buyers.
Research shows they wantsoftware pricing transparent 71%
(20:15):
of them do.
70% of them want demos or freetrials.
And they want those customerreferrals 35% of them and they
don't want to be cold called.
So think about that.
And another thing I wanted totalk about, you know, is maybe
as a precursor to maybe readingthe book.
It's not all doom and gloom outthere, folks, you know, there's
you, we've got the plays, youknow.
So, when you think of revenueorchestration, it's just the
(20:37):
purposeful coordination of yourpeople, your processes and your
plays to facilitate the buyingjourney.
You've got the people, you'vegot the, the plays.
Many times it's just change ourprocesses and it results from a
one step back.
Let's look at our strategies.
You know how are we going to goto market as a comprehensive
revenue team?
(20:58):
You know we have these kind ofthese paradigms that we break
down and sometimes into oursilos with this heroic effort
from the sales.
You know I'm going to justknock on more doors but that
sounds great.
We have trophies up, you know,in organizations to reward.
You know the salespeople whonever say die and keep going out
there.
(21:18):
But what are the processes thatare going to market and how
does that affect the rest of therevenue team?
So you know the book a shortread.
I call it a shook.
A short, helpful book, 90minutes.
Talks about maybe reconfiguringthe way that we go to market
with our plays to againfacilitate that buying journey
as the buyer requires it.
Eric Eden (21:38):
Awesome.
Well, I'm going to link to yourbook and your website so people
can get in touch if they wantto learn more and really
appreciate you being with ustoday sharing your insights.
Thanks for being on the show.
Yeah, eric, I appreciate theopportunity.
Ray Hartjen (21:51):
Thanks, I love what you're doing with Remarkable
Marketing and for the audienceout there.
My name is Ray Hartchen.
If I can help you out in anyway, please reach out to me.
I'm on all the social platformsat Ray Hartchen, so I learn
something every time I have adiscussion with somebody.
Today we have an exciting topic.
We are talking about revenueorchestration, and what exactly
does the new era of B2B salesand marketing look like?
We have the perfect guest tohelp us talk through it.
Author Ray Hartgen.
Welcome to the show.
Ray Hartjen (00:20):
Hello Eric, thank you so much for having me on
Remarkable Marketing.
I'm completely stoked abouthaving this conversation with
you, so thank you for theopportunity.
Appreciate it.
Eric Eden (00:30):
Why don't we start off by you sharing just a little
bit about who you are and whatyou do?
Ray Hartjen (00:47):
writer, a musician and a content marketer.
For the last 10 years I haveworked in SaaS software and I've
run complete marketingdepartments for smaller
companies and I kind ofspecialize in content, where I
consider myself a full stackmarketer.
But my strengths lie increating content.
Eric Eden (01:01):
Content is quite often the key, and I know you've
written four books.
Your latest book on revenueorchestration, is on Amazon,
correct?
Ray Hartjen (01:14):
Yes, it's a short, 90-minute read, eric.
It's my effort to kind of getout into the space for us B2B
revenue team professionals, thisnew paradigm that we have to
shift to a new model of going tomarket driven primarily by B2B
buyers.
I like to draw parallels, eric,with today's B2B buyers.
(01:34):
They have been changing theirapproach to seeking products,
solutions, experiences and thelike for years, but they hadn't
really made that bigfast-forward jump, the
incremental change, until thepandemic struck, and they're
very much motivated by theseworld-class B2C experiences that
(01:55):
they've enjoyed for 10 years ormore.
Right, you know, when a B2Bbuyer is buying for their
personal self through a B2Cchannel, they are, first of all,
they're digitally empowered.
They're digital first.
They have transparent pricing,they're able to compare
alternatives on the fly and theycan make their purchase
decision without speaking to asingle person.
(02:17):
And they love that and they dothat.
They do that with a budget of$20, $50 or something like that.
Then they go to the job usingthe same computer many times and
they're thinking well, I needto buy a service, a solution I
need to solve for a problem, Ihave a challenge, an obstacle,
or seize an opportunity.
They have a budget of $20,000,$50,000.
(02:40):
And what do they experience?
Do they experience thatworld-class?
Eric Eden (02:50):
buying journey that they have in their b2c channels?
Ray Hartjen (02:51):
no, they don't have to struggle to find customer
success stories and they don'tlike gated assets and they don't
like cold calls.
So you know, we're looking at afrom a b2b marketing
perspective.
We're looking at a playbookthat we have.
We have all these great playsthat have proven successful in
the past.
We we just have to reimaginehow we go to market with those
plays so we can meet thecustomer where they are, when
they're there, with theinformation and the data that
they need.
Eric Eden (03:14):
Some people have told me this year they think B2B
marketing, as it's been for thelast five years, is broken,
which is a different way ofsaying what you're saying,
because I think people who arenot evolving their strategies
are finding that these thingsdon't work of, you know, cold
(03:35):
calls and trying to get peopleto fill out forms, to wait for a
couple of days to get a callfrom you then to schedule a
meeting.
People want a more digitalfirst approach where they can
just get the information theyneed and have a much better
buying experience.
Even five years ago, I think,some of the analyst firms, like
(03:56):
Forrester, were saying that 80%of the buyer journey happens
before they talk to asalesperson, and my guess is I'm
interested in your opinion onthis my guess is that it's gone
even further.
I think most people wouldprefer for it to be 95% or 99%
before they talk to asalesperson.
What is your view of it?
Ray Hartjen (04:16):
Yeah, first of all, when you say the B2B
go-to-market process is broken,well, it's not broken if it
works right.
So you know there are B2Bcompanies out there enjoying
success.
I kind of define whether itworks or not is based on what
the competition is doing right.
And I like to look at pricingand packaging exercises.
If anyone out there has everbeen involved in a pricing and
(04:37):
packaging exercise, particularlywith a technology company, it
is a struggle.
It is three to six months ofcross-functional work with
everybody in the organization,from engineering to product to
the revenue team, customerservice.
It is hard to do.
Research shows that today's B2Bbuyer want to have transparent
(05:01):
pricing available on the web.
They do not want to have.
For years we've always thoughtof pricing as a very bottom of
funnel type of concept.
We'll get into that in thenegotiations when we have an
account executive and theprospective customer negotiating
.
We'll get to pricing.
But now they're viewing that asan ante into the game.
They want transparent pricing.
Now, if nobody offerstransparent pricing in vertical,
(05:22):
that's not necessarily aproblem, yet your buyer is not
happy.
We're not making it easy forthe buyer to buy, but you're not
behind any competitors.
But as soon as that firstcompetitor offers transparent
pricing on the web, then you'vegot to.
If you have not at leaststarted your pricing and
packaging exercise, you've got aproblem.
You've got a three to six monthcatch up, and nobody can afford
(05:44):
three to six months beingbehind their competitor, right?
So is the process broken?
Yeah, it's broken if it doesn'twork.
It's maybe not broken if itdoesn't work, but I'm kind of
figuratively, you know, shakingyou by the shoulders.
You got to wake up, man.
Today's B2B buyer is decidedlydigital first right.
Most of them are digitalnatives.
They are tremendously skilledat search and comparisons and
(06:10):
they don't want to deal withsales and marketing until they
have to on their terms.
And so be wary of that.
Don't just shoehorn yourcustomer into your past paradigm
of click on your request demoor, you know, have a gated
content, a gated form for yourcontent.
Give us your contactinformation knowing that you're
(06:32):
going to have an SDR or BDRgiving you a call.
People don't want that.
There's actually cloakingcompanies out there.
Our test box is one of them,where a prospective customer can
cloak their interest all theway through awareness, education
, consideration and evennegotiation for purchase.
The solution provider excuse medoesn't even know the
(06:53):
customer's name until theprocess is done.
Just the fact that there's abusiness out there that exists
shows you what customers wantand what they don't want.
Eric Eden (07:03):
That's super interesting, I think.
The unit economics the waythings were done five, 10 years
ago, with having SDRs and directsellers who could do complete
handholding and would feed acustomer all the information.
The problem with that model isthat it's just too expensive for
(07:23):
a lot of companies these daysand it's not the way.
More crucially, like you said,that people want to buy and I
think that, and a lot ofcompanies in particular, let's
pick on SaaS companies a littlebit, A lot of SaaS companies
instead of doing the extra workand I find it has been a lot of
(07:45):
extra work to design processesthat are digital first and
prospects can just go through itand can buy.
It's a lot more work instead ofjust saying, oh, we'll have the
salesperson, just talk to himabout that.
People use that as a crutchinstead of just designing it in
an intuitive way that peoplecould just on the website figure
(08:07):
it out and not have to talk tosomebody.
So I think that's maybe the onething that a lot of the B2C
companies have gotten correct.
Ray Hartjen (08:16):
You know what the tenement of all sales marketing
is make it easy for yourcustomer to buy right, and
there's a lot of B2C companiesout there that make it very easy
for you to buy.
In fact, sometimes you buy tooquickly.
It's like, oh, that was oneclick, okay, well, hopefully
I'll like it when it comes intothe mail.
You've seen the B2B space.
People try freemium types ofproducts, free trials, things
(08:38):
like that.
That's it.
That's giving it a bit of a,you know, a nod toward changing
buying behaviors.
So, so those are really goodthings to think about.
And but you know, we, asrevenue team professionals, we
have to be kind of nimble in ourapproach and be willing to
think innovatively.
(08:59):
You know, it wasn't that longago where, you know ago, where
an account executive might havemultiple SDRs working for him or
her.
Now it's probably more the casewhere there's one SDR, btr
working for multiple AEs.
But if you're trying torearrange your headcount
allotment with SDRs and BDRs,remember a chief revenue officer
or a head of sales.
They don't really want to getrid of SDRs because that's your
(09:19):
pipeline for your AE, right?
Why do you want to get rid ofyour best bench?
But you need those SDRs andBDRs to do something.
You can never have enough leads, have you, eric?
Have you ever met a salespersonwho had enough leads?
Eric Eden (09:34):
Well enough qualified leads no A lot of
times they have leads, but theseones aren't good.
Ray Hartjen (09:40):
There's always just like one more I need.
I need one more, at least onemore, one more, but you know
there's a you know, when youcome over to the marketing side
of the house, then it's thedifference between lead
generation and demand generation.
You know, and demand generationthat longer tail type of
approach that eventually paysoff in leads.
But you have to keep.
The SDRs have to eat right.
They eat what they hunt and soyou have to give them something
(10:01):
to hunt.
So it's a big conversationthroughout the entire revenue
team what's our go-to-marketmodel, what's it look like and
how does it appeal to ourprospective customers and even
our existing customers?
And it takes sales, it takesmarketing.
I've always talked about themas being two wings on the same
bird and they need to becoordinated.
But you need to throw everybodyin there.
(10:23):
That's a customer-facingfunction, particularly customer
success.
Customer success is soimportant in customer retention.
It's so expensive to get acustomer.
Let's keep them there, right.
Let's upsell them if we can,let's cross-sell if they can,
but at the very least we need tokeep their business.
So, eric, you and I will bestanding there at the table.
Here comes the runners, that'sthe buyer, and they're on their
(10:43):
buying journey, the marathon,and as they come up to our table
, we're going to supply themwith whatever they might need at
the time, you know in the formof data.
What data do you need?
Are you starting right out?
Do you even know that there'san opportunity that exists?
That's when it's search withkey terms and show you how that
(11:07):
we have a product or a service,a solution, an experience that
can help you seize anopportunity or solve for a
problem or what have you.
So we give you that informationand then, eric, you and I pop
in our shuttle, we go to thenext aid station.
As they're continuing theirjourney, what else do they need
to facilitate their buyingjourney?
What's the information that wecan get them?
How do we continue to win atsearch, particularly during
(11:30):
education and awareness phases,so they can understand, from our
perspective, our point of view,how we add the most value our
solution and, from ourperspective, our point of view,
how we add the most value oursolution, our experience, our
product or what have you offersthe more value.
So there's a lot of levers topush.
The good news is is the skillsalready exist in the B2B revenue
teams?
Right, the skills are there,the experiences are already
(11:53):
there.
They just need to be reappliedbecause the buyer is in control
now.
We are not in control.
So what's that paradigm shiftlook like and how do we change
up the levers that we push andpull along to manage our
business so that the buyers canlead their journey?
We can help facilitate it, getit to a buying decision and
hopefully it's in our favor.
Eric Eden (12:12):
Are there a couple B2B brands that you think are
good examples that are embracingthe new digital first strategy
that you're talking about?
Ray Hartjen (12:23):
I think there's a lot of other companies that are
still struggling coming to termswith this.
We are so busy from a B2Bperspective, on a revenue team
perspective, that we kind offall into these bad habits.
How many times have we gone toan event and then, after you
know, after the event, said youknow, how can we make this just
even better?
You know, those areconversations that we need to
(12:45):
have three months ahead of theevent.
You know, and tee up the event.
Or when people show up at theevent a trade show, for example
they know I got to get to booth1002.
Check out the remarkablemarketing guys because they've
been talking about this 1002.
Check out the remarkablemarketing guys because they've
been talking about this and thishas piqued my interest.
I mean, we as B2B professionals, we want to have that
human-to-human conversationright.
Trade shows and events thoseare great opportunities to do it
(13:06):
, but we don't want it to be atstep one of the buying journey.
Let's get them almost into aclosing position at that point
in time.
Same can be said for webinars.
I can go on for eight episodes,eric, talking about how B&B
marketers just get dependent onthis old webinar model and,
instead of really working.
A value-added webinar to makeit part of an inclusive,
(13:28):
integrated, comprehensivecampaign, to really optimize the
effectiveness of it.
We tend to take the easy wayout.
It's going to be four weeksfrom now.
We're going to send out anemail once a week for three
weeks and at the end of it we'regoing to send out a recap email
with a link and we'll put thelink as a gated asset on our
website.
That's the cookbook, right?
(13:49):
That doesn't work.
Eric Eden (13:50):
I mean it works.
Ray Hartjen (13:51):
It doesn't work optimally.
Eric Eden (13:54):
Yeah, I mean it worked much better 10 years ago
than it does today.
You know it's interestingthere's 700,000.
Bdrs, or SDRs, in the US,approximately, and just over a
million direct sellers workingfor SaaS or tech companies is
(14:15):
some of the research that I'veseen, and I actually saw a
presentation from the co-founderof Sixth Sense, who now has a
new company called OneMind, ofSixth Sense, who now has a new
company called OneMind, and it'sactually a very digital first
(14:35):
strategy where AI agents will dothe entire SDR BDR process and
they will also do the directsales process using AI agents
that sound like humans and havereasoning, and it'll even do
account management and it willjump on a Zoom with you and pull
up slides and give you all theinformation you need, and I
(14:56):
think a lot of people are okaywith that sort of experience
just to get the information,versus insisting and talking.
They need to talk to asalesperson.
I think a lot of people areokay with that.
A lot of people are okay usingautomated phone systems for, you
know, getting help when they'rebooking a flight.
I think a lot of people, from adigital first perspective, are
very interested in just gettingthe information in real time,
(15:20):
and so I think that a lot ofthese things are very
interesting, leaning into thenew buyer behavior you're
talking about, right.
Ray Hartjen (15:30):
Yeah, and when you're a prospective customer,
the difference is are you beingserved or are you being sold?
Are you doing it on yourtimeline and you getting the
information when you want it, orare you having your day
interrupted by phone calls andemails?
Are you getting spammed?
Who's got the initiative?
Who's driving control?
Who's being served?
Who you getting spammed?
So it's who's got theinitiative?
Who's driving control?
(15:50):
Who's being served?
Who's being sold to?
And I think you're absolutelyright, and I think the
marketplace is, as we becomemore comfortable in speaking
with reasoning machines,there'll be a preference perhaps
to lean in that direction,particularly for data not being
sold, being served.
Eric Eden (16:10):
I don't think that the AI agents at this moment, in
November 2024, are there, but Ithink my prediction for 2025 is
they will be there, and thenthe question is going to be how
good are they?
How long does the process take?
Is there bumps in the road?
I'm sure there'll be all ofthose things, but I think it's
(16:33):
going to happen because theprocesses we're using for the
last five or 10 years, likewe've been discussing, have just
proved to be pretty inefficientand, if we're being honest, a
lot of the people the hundredsof people that I've worked with
that were SDRs did not love thatjob.
Like appointment setting issomething that deserves to be
(16:54):
automated.
They just did it because theyneeded a paycheck, and so I
think those people will go onand find other work, more
strategic things, buildingbetter skills that help them
grow in their career.
So I don't really think it'sabout job replacement, but it is
about providing a differentbuyer experience that's better
for the buyer and more efficientfor the company.
(17:16):
That's the win-win right.
Ray Hartjen (17:18):
Yeah, and it'll be important with those agents AI
agents to measure conversion.
You know how do we want tofacilitate the buying journey
and what are going to be theconversion metrics as we advance
along.
You know AI has been promptingcustomer success and service
people for a couple of years now.
Eric Eden (17:33):
Yeah, I think it'll get better.
It's not perfect today.
I think there's also theconcern about inaccurate
information, but one thingunderscores why buyer behavior
is changing.
When you think aboutgenerational buyers and Gen Z,
like my daughters, who areteenagers, they don't even
(17:54):
remember a time beforeeverything was on demand.
They're like what do you mean?
We have to wait to a certaindate or time to watch this TV
show this week?
That's dumb.
I've never even heard of that.
Like they don't understand it.
You know this thing about.
Oh, just be patient, you knowwe'll get back to you in a few
days.
Like, people are like no, peopleare like on demand in real time
(18:16):
.
They want information and theywant it in a compelling way.
And I think it's sort of likeother trends related to that.
It's just sort of how peopleare moving away from doing
Google searches like they'vedone over the last 25 years and
now it's sort of like searchanywhere.
They'll search for news andinformation and stuff on
(18:38):
Instagram and TikTok or chat,gpt and so, yeah, google has
some competition now and that'sfor marketers a real head
scratcher because we haven'tseen that it's been so dominant
for the last 20 years.
So I think things are changing,like you said, and the buyer
(18:59):
behaviors are changing for somegood reasons there and I
encourage everyone to take alook at your book.
But is there any one or twoinsights that you would tease
that make it worth thatinvestment for people and time?
Ray Hartjen (19:08):
Yeah, it's a good question, eric, and you know I
want to build upon the fact thatyou're talking about your
daughters and their B2C journeyswith you know content and on
demand.
You know the workforce isgetting younger.
Those digital natives now makeup a larger part of the
workforce and they're going toget even a bigger part of the
workforce.
They're digital natives and soyou know, understand that.
(19:30):
You know your buyer, your B2Bbuyer, is not the same buyer
that they were 20 years ago.
In a lot of cases not even thesame buyer they were, you know,
five, seven years ago.
Digital natives are popping inthere.
Digital natives have adifferent way of doing things
and that kind of tilts ourfunnel on its head.
You know 41% of Gen Z and 29%of millennials check review
(19:52):
sites as the first step in theirbuying journeys.
And a lot of us veteran B2Brevenue team members, we've
always thought of referralcustomers and customer success
stories, review sites.
We've always thought those asend of funnel assets that we
hand out.
And then you know, you thinkabout it, these new B2B buyers.
Research shows they wantsoftware pricing transparent 71%
(20:15):
of them do.
70% of them want demos or freetrials.
And they want those customerreferrals 35% of them and they
don't want to be cold called.
So think about that.
And another thing I wanted totalk about, you know, is maybe
as a precursor to maybe readingthe book.
It's not all doom and gloom outthere, folks, you know, there's
you, we've got the plays, youknow.
So, when you think of revenueorchestration, it's just the
(20:37):
purposeful coordination of yourpeople, your processes and your
plays to facilitate the buyingjourney.
You've got the people, you'vegot the, the plays.
Many times it's just change ourprocesses and it results from a
one step back.
Let's look at our strategies.
You know how are we going to goto market as a comprehensive
revenue team?
(20:58):
You know we have these kind ofthese paradigms that we break
down and sometimes into oursilos with this heroic effort
from the sales.
You know I'm going to justknock on more doors but that
sounds great.
We have trophies up, you know,in organizations to reward.
You know the salespeople whonever say die and keep going out
there.
(21:18):
But what are the processes thatare going to market and how
does that affect the rest of therevenue team?
So you know the book a shortread.
I call it a shook.
A short, helpful book, 90minutes.
Talks about maybe reconfiguringthe way that we go to market
with our plays to againfacilitate that buying journey
as the buyer requires it.
Eric Eden (21:38):
Awesome.
Well, I'm going to link to yourbook and your website so people
can get in touch if they wantto learn more and really
appreciate you being with ustoday sharing your insights.
Thanks for being on the show.
Yeah, eric, I appreciate theopportunity.
Ray Hartjen (21:51):
Thanks, I love what you're doing with Remarkable
Marketing and for the audienceout there.
My name is Ray Hartchen.
If I can help you out in anyway, please reach out to me.
I'm on all the social platformsat Ray Hartchen, so I learn
something every time I have adiscussion with somebody.
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