December 11, 2024 • 26 mins
Today we explore creating compelling brand stories with the visionary founder of Lore. Discover how Tim's journey from leading branding across products at the iconic Kohler company and establishing his own firm Lore has positioned him as a master of brand storytelling.
This episode promises to unveil the strategies that transform mere advertising into emotional narratives that resonate with 68% of consumers, drawing inspiration from Mad Men’s iconic storytelling tactics. Tim shares intriguing insights from a standout campaign where a fashion-forward toilet took center stage at New York Fashion Week, proving the power of unexpected and innovative storytelling in capturing consumer interest.
Explore the dynamic world of brand storytelling in the digital era, with platforms like TikTok reshaping how brands connect with audiences. We dive into the critical need for authenticity, emphasizing that 91% of consumers crave genuine interactions. Learn how to navigate the blurred lines between B2B and B2C, focusing on brand identity and customer loyalty over commodification. Our conversation highlights the high stakes of customer acquisition costs and the importance of building a brand that not only captures attention but also fosters long-term connections. Plus, discover how real-time feedback in digital marketing can revolutionize your advertising efforts, ensuring your brand's story is always optimized and impactful.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Eric Eden (00:01):
Today we are talking about the power of brand
storytelling and how it canexponentially impact your
business in a very positive way.
We have an amazing brandingexpert to help us talk through
this.
Timothy, welcome to the show.
Timothy Kalinowski (00:16):
Hi, thanks, eric, Really glad to be here
today.
Eric Eden (00:20):
So why don't we start off by you taking just a
minute or two to talk a littlebit about who you are and what
you do?
Timothy Kalinowski (00:28):
Sure Happy to do it.
My name is Tim Kalinowski.
I am the founder of Lore, whichis really a brand storytelling
agency here, after almost twodecades of working at large
agencies, working with clientsacross the globe, as well as
(00:48):
working for the Kohler company,which I spent quite a bit of
time there as theircommunications director of brand
and creative services, whichmeant I worked on 52 brands in
53 different countries.
That allowed me to really get agreat view, not just
domestically but internationally, of how people build brands,
tell stories and have an impacton the customers.
(01:09):
The reason I started Lore wasbecause I was seeing agencies
that didn't have theauthenticity or even the
integrity sometimes to reallyhelp customers and do it in an
affordable way, that theyweren't just, you know, milking
for billable hours or coming upwith ideas that, frankly, had
already been done.
So we try to do things astransparent as possible and
(01:33):
really become a partner withwhoever our client is, so that
we're working together for thebest of their business so I'm a
huge fan, historically, of theshow mad men, which was more
about advertising than it wasabout brand storytelling per se.
Eric Eden (01:52):
So talk to us a little bit about what is brand
storytelling and and why is thatmore important than just
advertising?
Timothy Kalinowski (02:01):
well, first off, let me just say mad men is
one of my favorite shows of alltime.
I don't think any goodadvertising or branding
conversation should happenwithout a little of that show.
But there is some correlationand if anybody's watched that
show you know Don Draper, kindof the key hero of the story,
the protagonist.
(02:22):
He does a great job of subtlytalking about the psychology
behind advertising and thestories that brands are trying
to tell, and he would do a greatjob if you ever watched looking
at the narratives of how hewould go into a boardroom and
try and sell an idea.
And it was to dig into theemotion of who that consumer was
and show who is his client, thevision through that customer's
(02:46):
eyes, and that is really thecore of what we do.
They may have done it a littlebit more in the Hollywood
fashion and sometimes you knowthe sausage making factory it
looks a little bit different inreal life, but really great
example to that.
So, in terms of storytelling,what most people don't realize
is that 68% of consumers areinfluenced by a good story, and
(03:07):
by that I mean being able to seehow their life fits into
whatever product or serviceyou're trying to sell.
We like to call that the ahamoment, where we've found or
uncovered those nuggets where wecan see how this is going to
impact a customer's life, andthen flip the script and not
talk about it from the viewpointof our client but talk about it
(03:28):
in the viewpoint of ourcustomer.
Eric Eden (03:32):
Yeah, I think that great storytelling can have that
sort of impact and changepeople's mind, versus just
showing a picture of the productor an offer.
Can you give us an example?
Tell us a story about howyou've brought that to life?
Timothy Kalinowski (03:52):
One that comes to mind, which was a super
fun one.
I was doing a product launch forthe Kohler company, since I had
been there for quite a while,and we had created a toilet that
was very fashion forward.
It was really sleek design,really nothing like it had been
on the market before, and wecalled it the hat box toilet,
(04:12):
which it it just it looked likea hat box.
Frankly.
It just was this object thatdid not look traditional, and so
we came up with this idea thatlet's put it fashion forward and
make it about you know designand juxtapose it in a space that
you might not normally see it.
So we actually created anentire campaign and bought space
(04:35):
at New York Fashion Week andput this toilet as part of the
displays at New York FashionWeek.
So we're sitting there with allof the top designers in the
fashion world and, as you'recoming down the row of brands
that are giving things away andshowing off things, you have a
toilet, and it was a resoundingsuccess.
Media from all over the worldpicked it up, but we also got
(04:57):
some credibility that it wasn'tjust about the bold look and
having something interesting tolook at.
It was that juxtaposition ofwhere we created something that
was utilitarian and put itdirectly in the middle of the
fashion world and we told agreat story about it.
Eric Eden (05:14):
Wow, that's really cool, yeah, unexpected for a lot
of people, I'm sure.
And that's sort of a good wayto stand out right.
It's just to do some things,combine some things like that.
That would be unexpected.
So tell us a little bit aboutbrand storytelling.
How do people get started doingthat for their organization?
(05:39):
What are a couple of the thingsthat you recommend people start
thinking about if they want totalk to the president?
Timothy Kalinowski (06:05):
I want to talk to the sales guy.
I want to talk to people on theshop floor.
I want to talk to differentperspectives so that I can
really hear what's going on andhear how things are made and how
people describe them.
And the reason for that is Iwant to strip away all of these
preconceived notions.
That usually happens in theprocess of creating something.
For instance, if you're making aproduct, you've done some
(06:26):
research, product designers andengineers have gotten involved
and they create, you know, aproduct based on a set of
features that they know orbenefits that they know their
customer wants.
But what happens is they startwrapping that into their own
language and they become verynot just prideful about it and
they should be own language.
And they become very, not justprideful about it and they
(06:47):
should be, but a little too, Iguess maybe another way to say
is they've lost sight of whatthe customer or how the customer
wants to talk about it orexperience it.
They're talking about it fromtheir perspective.
So in these sessions we usuallytalk a lot about you know, how
does it work, what does it do,who are the people that are
impacted by it, and we ask why?
About a hundred different waysand somewhere in there we find
(07:08):
out the true meaning of what theproduct was and why it was
created, and you know, from thatstandpoint we're able to start
to get to who's using it and whythey're using it.
And that's the foundation of agood story.
If you know who's using it, whythey're using it, then you can
create, you know, apply somestory based principles to making
that a story.
Eric Eden (07:32):
When you've done these discovery sessions with
clients, have you sometimes comeup with things that you were
totally unexpected?
Timothy Kalinowski (07:41):
Oh for sure, it happens all the time.
You know, there was onerecently with a customer, a
product-based company, and theywanted to get launched into some
new markets.
They wanted to expand theirbusiness a little bit, and so
they contacted us to help.
And one of the things that cameout of the discovery sessions
(08:02):
was, almost unilaterally,everybody agreed that they were
the best kept secret in theindustry, meaning nobody knew
who they were.
So there's a gigantic problemif nobody knows who you are.
So then we're able to startpulling on that thread to go
okay, why does nobody know whoyou are?
What are you hiding?
Why haven't you been out there?
(08:23):
And they really have just madesuch a good product.
They've lived on referrals forover a hundred years and they've
never tried to marketthemselves or put themselves out
there.
So as the economy tightened,things changed, regulations have
changed, they needed to hustleand get into some new places and
they needed to introducethemselves kind of for the first
(08:44):
time in a hundred years, andthat really started to stone a
path to find the right story forthem.
That's great.
Eric Eden (08:54):
So when you're going through this process and you
get to some of those really goodinsights, what makes a really
good brand story, what makes itcome together?
Timothy Kalinowski (09:09):
So interesting, and we've been
hired by some very, very largecompanies to come in and even
help train people on how to tellstories for meetings.
Even you know how to present toexecutive members or how
executive members can presentout or talk to board members the
principle and it's really not agiant secret if you've ever
(09:30):
taken an English class, but youmay have heard of Gustav Freitag
, which Gustav was the firstperson to look at honestly plays
, theater, and how they weretelling stories, and he started
to map what was happening andthere was this kind of
underlying theme and consistencythat he kept noticing.
And if you look it up you'llsee that there's, you know,
(09:52):
typically five parts to this,but essentially it's, there's a
rising action, a falling actionand things kind of come together
.
As you know, that that, thatpinnacle of the story, the, the,
the point where it all startsto come together.
And so the rising action isusually describing what the
challenge is, what thatopportunity is.
And so the rising action isusually describing what the
challenge is, what thatopportunity is.
And so, from a brand standpointyou know, maybe it's a pen or a
(10:15):
pencil that you're trying tosell, right?
And so that rising action, justlike some of the old sales you
know, sell me this pen.
It's understanding and tellingpeople why they kind of, why
they need that pen, becauseyou've already done the
listening, so you're repeatingthat back to them.
You understand who they are,and it's it's not just because
they need to write somethingdown, it's are you writing a
(10:36):
check to buy a new house, or youknow it's.
You start to get into theemotion of what they're doing
with it and why it's importantto them.
Right.
And then the falling action isthat resolution which is oh, you
need this pen.
This pen gets you through it,but it's understanding that
tension between those two andhow to answer those callings.
Eric Eden (10:57):
Yeah, that makes sense, and it seems like there's
a pretty big disparity incompanies who are good at brand
storytelling and companies thatare not good at brand
storytelling.
Right, I mean, like, what haveyou observed is the difference
in the results from companieswho deploy really good brand
(11:20):
storytelling versus those whodon't?
Timothy Kalinowski (11:24):
Well, let's, let's use Apple right.
I use a lot of Apple products.
I think a lot of people useApple products.
Probably half of your users arebetter have iPhones in their
pocket right now.
Apple, from an early time,decided that they were going to
talk about the experience andkind of that benefit to the user
of having that product not allof the features in the product,
(11:47):
right, not all of the featuresin the product right.
So think about television spotsor advertisements for the
iPhone.
They're not talking about thephone.
They're talking about filmingsomebody's birthday party and
capturing memories andexperiences along the way.
It has nothing to do withhaving a phone, it's just that
this device happens to be inyour pocket.
(12:07):
So when your kid's birthdayparty pops up and you don't have
a camera, you're holding yourphone and you're recording
what's going on and it'shappening real time.
Those are the types of storiesthat people resonate with.
Eric Eden (12:21):
Yeah, that makes sense.
I'm curious how do you thinkbrand storytelling is changing
in the world we live in today,with TikTok and everyone having
a smartphone?
Do you think it's evolved?
Timothy Kalinowski (12:40):
There's no doubt.
It's constantly evolving, so itactually makes it more
important to get really good atthis.
So, statistically, in the U S,an adult sees over a hundred
thousand words a day between allof the platforms that we use,
which is a staggering number.
If I said to you, did you know?
You read probably a hundredthousand words a day, I pretty
(13:02):
sure you tell me there's no wayI do that, but statistically
that's true.
And so we start to kind of selfedit everything around us.
Right, how fast do you scrollthrough something?
You see something, you don'twait for it to finish if it
doesn't capture you right away.
And that's really the essenceof what a consumer is today.
If you can't capture theirattention right away, you've
(13:25):
lost them and there is noconversion, there is no click
through, there is no sale,there's no new lead.
You have to capture theirattention and you're not going
to do that unless you have areally good story.
Eric Eden (13:37):
How important do you think brand storytelling is?
And business to business versusbusiness to consumer?
Is it equally important?
Timothy Kalinowski (13:48):
Yeah, very much so, and I think in my
experience and I've done almost30 years now, probably as much
B2B as I have B2C projects andwhat I think probably frustrates
me the most is oftentimespeople forget that consumers are
(14:10):
consumers.
If I'm a B2B buyer and I gohome and I'm a B2C buyer, I
didn't completely change mypersonality.
I've just gone from one placeto another place and I can
appreciate that when somebodytells me a story or somebody
connects with me for a productor service that I need to buy,
(14:30):
whether it's at work or at home,that line between traditional,
oh, b2b can only be in theseplaces and B2C can only be in
these places and you can onlytalk to people this way, that
line is blurred because foralmost 20 years, since this
increase in social media forsure the last 10 or 15, people
(14:52):
want things that are quicker.
We call it snackable.
Sometimes they want quick bites.
You know you even brought up howyou know you can tell on your
podcast how long people want tolisten.
There is a reason for that.
It doesn't have to be one orthe other, but how we create
stories, how we talk to peopleand how we engage with people
(15:12):
isn't like it used to be.
It is very similar now and theattention span is just as quick.
91% of consumers, whetherthey're B2B or B2C, want
authentic conversations withtheir customers or with the
brands that they're buying.
I mean so if 91% of yourcustomers are telling you that
you need to be more authenticand more engaged with them,
(15:33):
that's not a difference betweenB2B and B2C.
That's just the state of the US consumer.
Eric Eden (15:40):
Yeah, I agree with that a hundred percent.
That makes a lot of sense.
I think there's a lot ofdiscussion about, in particular,
in B2B.
You know, about what is theright balance between branding,
focus and generating demand, how, how should people really think
(16:04):
about that?
What is a what is a fairbalance?
And what we've been talkingabout with branding, brand
storytelling and then generatingdemand?
How should people think aboutthat?
Timothy Kalinowski (16:16):
if you think of the conversation I just had
with authenticity right, if yourbrand isn't a really strong
brand, right, customers will paymore.
Statistically, they pay moreand they're willing to go
further for a brand that theytrust, right?
So when you're looking at, howare you converting sales?
And what does that mean?
Nuts and bolts, at the end, ifyour brand is a weak brand, if
(16:39):
you don't have a great brandstory, if you're not a brand
that people recognize, if you'renot trying to be a brand that
recognizes something that looksand feels really good, now
you're a commodity and peoplearen't going to pay as much for
a commodity, so it can work andyou can sell things as a
commodity.
People do it on Amazon all thetime and I get into this
(17:00):
argument where, hey, if I buyenough ad space and I just push
things out there and I'm sellingit cheap enough, fast enough, I
can make money in volume andthey're right.
But that's not a lastingproposition either, because, as
a business owner and a lot ofsmall business owners and
occasionally we do work withsmall business owners they're
living and dying by repeatbusiness Because it's hard For a
(17:22):
B2C business.
You're talking anywhere from$50 to $150 for a customer
acquisition cost, meaning whenyou're putting ad spend out and
you're trying to market topeople, every one new customer
you've had to spend 50 to $150on average, and sometimes it's
higher, to get a new customer.
(17:43):
I rarely see a lower than 50.
Now if you're B2B and it's, youknow, at a larger scale, where
maybe a customer lead time is ayear, that cost is somewhere
between three to five, even$7,000 per customer.
So you want repeat customersbecause the acquisition cost is
so high.
(18:03):
You're either out there chasingthe bottom of the barrel and
just trying to sell things as acommodity or you're trying to
build a business and build abrand, and that's the biggest
difference that I see.
Eric Eden (18:16):
You have to have a high customer lifetime value
right.
Timothy Kalinowski (18:20):
Yeah.
Eric Eden (18:21):
The acquisition costs worthwhile Is, that is,
that the moral of the story.
Timothy Kalinowski (18:25):
Moral of the story, you know, we see things
all the time where somebody islike oh, I'm going to sell a
t-shirt on Etsy or I'm justgoing to, you know, do something
quick.
And they do, they make money atit, but they're not creating a
brand, and when that sale orthat product is done or gone,
the business is gone.
I mean, you're just makingquick sales.
Eric Eden (18:46):
You got to think about all the value you can get,
including repeat sales upsells.
That makes a lot of sense, whypeople understanding who you are
, knowing you, trusting you, hasa big impact on that.
So let me ask you what is thebest advice you could give about
(19:07):
brand storytelling, based onall the work you've done on it
over the years?
Timothy Kalinowski (19:13):
years.
The best advice Listen, makeyourself and your team listen.
Just kind of separate yourselfyour ego, everything else that's
in front of you, and look offto the side and listen to your
customers and try and understandthem to the best of your
ability.
Because I promise you, if youreally understand them and you
(19:35):
really kind of get into thoselittle nuggets of how they live
their life and what's happeningin their life, you will find a
rich, rich place in which youcan grab ideas and start
communicating stories.
Eric Eden (19:51):
Yeah, I think everybody has to work extra hard
to set aside our preconceivednotions or theses about certain
things.
You know, very smart peoplecome in with strong opinions
about how they think thingsshould be people in the
(20:18):
corporate ivory tower.
If you will come up with theseideas, you know, without talking
to the people on the frontlines of the company, without
talking to the customers, andthey come up with stories they
tell themselves that just don'tmake any sense and they're not
authentic.
You know to your point.
So I think that that isrequires some more muscle memory
than than most people realize,because I think our tendency is
(20:40):
to tell ourselves, tellourselves some really
interesting stories, right?
absolutely the stories we tellourselves.
Any final thoughts?
Timothy Kalinowski (20:54):
what I would tell everybody is this is the
fun part of you know, your Imean, let's assume the funnest
part is you know you have themost fun when you're making a
sale and converting a sale, butI personally I think this is the
the second most fun thing thata business will do, which is
understand their customers andhave a conversation with them
(21:16):
and talk to them in a way thatshows that you know what matters
to them, and that's kind of theheart of where it's at.
And it takes a little bit ofpatience and a little bit of
time, but not that much you know, and I find I've done really
expensive research projects withcompanies to try and get new
(21:37):
insights.
And what I find is if youreally sit and ask each other
and kind of strip away all ofyour preconceived notions of
your customers, you will findthe answer, and you probably
already have the answer, andthen it's just a matter of going
out executing then either doingit yourself or finding a team
like mine that can help you getthere.
Eric Eden (21:58):
I love it and every day when I talk to customers and
tell them a brand story, I cantell when it's resonating with
them and when it's notresonating with them.
And you know, often over theyears, at different companies
telling different stories aboutdifferent brands of, like, wow,
(22:20):
we really need to change thisstory because this is just not
working.
Like you know when it's notworking when you're sitting with
somebody, like you're saying,and you also do know when it is
really working, Like the flipside of it is also true when
people are with you and they'renodding their head and they're
not on their phone and they'reengaged and they're excited.
(22:41):
You can like see it in theireyes, right?
I think that's the thrill ofvictory, right?
Timothy Kalinowski (22:47):
Absolutely.
I mean, I think you said itreally well, you know, in terms
of seeing those results andunderstanding what's happening.
You know we live in a verydigital age right now and you
know, compared to when I startedmy career, we didn't.
You know you do anadvertisement.
You might put a little, aspecial phone number, a code at
(23:08):
the bottom of a print ad to tryand figure out who saw it or
where they were calling from orwhat magazine it was in they
were calling from or whatmagazine it was in.
You know, nowadays you'reclicking something and we're
tracking from the point it'sclicked all the way through.
So if you have a good digitalmedia agency who's helping you
buy media and we do this forclients all the time you know
(23:28):
we're able to tell you wherethey're coming from, where they
went, what they did.
And if an ad isn't resonating,especially if you have several
out there, you know we're on adaily basis for any individual
customer, client we're lookingat is this image working, is
that image working, is thisheadline working better than
this one?
And we're analyzing that stuffevery day.
(23:50):
So you know, I've, I've, I hadsomebody from a very large
company talk to me and say hey,no, we've got some new ads out.
We've been running them for sixmonths and our agency says we
should probably know if it'sworking in another couple of
months.
And my answer to them is you'regetting taken for a ride
because you will know.
You know very quickly sometimesdays, but for sure within weeks
(24:13):
if things are resonating or notresonating.
And you know it's up to you tomake those changes, because
you're spending the money andnot going anywhere with it and
most likely you didn't have theright story.
Eric Eden (24:25):
Yeah, that's.
The benefit of the golden eraof technology we live in today
is that the feedback is a lotmore real time.
You don't have to wait for longperiods of time like that.
Well, I really appreciate youbeing with us today, sharing all
of your stories and yourinsights.
I'm going to link to yourwebsite so if people want to get
(24:46):
in touch and chat with you moreabout this, they can do so
Really appreciate you being onthe show today, thank you.
Timothy Kalinowski (24:53):
Thank you so much, eric, really appreciate
it.
I hope everybody does great andpicks this up and starts
telling wonderful stories.
Today we are talking about the power of brand
storytelling and how it canexponentially impact your
business in a very positive way.
We have an amazing brandingexpert to help us talk through
this.
Timothy, welcome to the show.
Timothy Kalinowski (00:16):
Hi, thanks, eric, Really glad to be here
today.
Eric Eden (00:20):
So why don't we start off by you taking just a
minute or two to talk a littlebit about who you are and what
you do?
Timothy Kalinowski (00:28):
Sure Happy to do it.
My name is Tim Kalinowski.
I am the founder of Lore, whichis really a brand storytelling
agency here, after almost twodecades of working at large
agencies, working with clientsacross the globe, as well as
(00:48):
working for the Kohler company,which I spent quite a bit of
time there as theircommunications director of brand
and creative services, whichmeant I worked on 52 brands in
53 different countries.
That allowed me to really get agreat view, not just
domestically but internationally, of how people build brands,
tell stories and have an impacton the customers.
(01:09):
The reason I started Lore wasbecause I was seeing agencies
that didn't have theauthenticity or even the
integrity sometimes to reallyhelp customers and do it in an
affordable way, that theyweren't just, you know, milking
for billable hours or coming upwith ideas that, frankly, had
already been done.
So we try to do things astransparent as possible and
(01:33):
really become a partner withwhoever our client is, so that
we're working together for thebest of their business so I'm a
huge fan, historically, of theshow mad men, which was more
about advertising than it wasabout brand storytelling per se.
Eric Eden (01:52):
So talk to us a little bit about what is brand
storytelling and and why is thatmore important than just
advertising?
Timothy Kalinowski (02:01):
well, first off, let me just say mad men is
one of my favorite shows of alltime.
I don't think any goodadvertising or branding
conversation should happenwithout a little of that show.
But there is some correlationand if anybody's watched that
show you know Don Draper, kindof the key hero of the story,
the protagonist.
(02:22):
He does a great job of subtlytalking about the psychology
behind advertising and thestories that brands are trying
to tell, and he would do a greatjob if you ever watched looking
at the narratives of how hewould go into a boardroom and
try and sell an idea.
And it was to dig into theemotion of who that consumer was
and show who is his client, thevision through that customer's
(02:46):
eyes, and that is really thecore of what we do.
They may have done it a littlebit more in the Hollywood
fashion and sometimes you knowthe sausage making factory it
looks a little bit different inreal life, but really great
example to that.
So, in terms of storytelling,what most people don't realize
is that 68% of consumers areinfluenced by a good story, and
(03:07):
by that I mean being able to seehow their life fits into
whatever product or serviceyou're trying to sell.
We like to call that the ahamoment, where we've found or
uncovered those nuggets where wecan see how this is going to
impact a customer's life, andthen flip the script and not
talk about it from the viewpointof our client but talk about it
(03:28):
in the viewpoint of ourcustomer.
Eric Eden (03:32):
Yeah, I think that great storytelling can have that
sort of impact and changepeople's mind, versus just
showing a picture of the productor an offer.
Can you give us an example?
Tell us a story about howyou've brought that to life?
Timothy Kalinowski (03:52):
One that comes to mind, which was a super
fun one.
I was doing a product launch forthe Kohler company, since I had
been there for quite a while,and we had created a toilet that
was very fashion forward.
It was really sleek design,really nothing like it had been
on the market before, and wecalled it the hat box toilet,
(04:12):
which it it just it looked likea hat box.
Frankly.
It just was this object thatdid not look traditional, and so
we came up with this idea thatlet's put it fashion forward and
make it about you know designand juxtapose it in a space that
you might not normally see it.
So we actually created anentire campaign and bought space
(04:35):
at New York Fashion Week andput this toilet as part of the
displays at New York FashionWeek.
So we're sitting there with allof the top designers in the
fashion world and, as you'recoming down the row of brands
that are giving things away andshowing off things, you have a
toilet, and it was a resoundingsuccess.
Media from all over the worldpicked it up, but we also got
(04:57):
some credibility that it wasn'tjust about the bold look and
having something interesting tolook at.
It was that juxtaposition ofwhere we created something that
was utilitarian and put itdirectly in the middle of the
fashion world and we told agreat story about it.
Eric Eden (05:14):
Wow, that's really cool, yeah, unexpected for a lot
of people, I'm sure.
And that's sort of a good wayto stand out right.
It's just to do some things,combine some things like that.
That would be unexpected.
So tell us a little bit aboutbrand storytelling.
How do people get started doingthat for their organization?
(05:39):
What are a couple of the thingsthat you recommend people start
thinking about if they want totalk to the president?
Timothy Kalinowski (06:05):
I want to talk to the sales guy.
I want to talk to people on theshop floor.
I want to talk to differentperspectives so that I can
really hear what's going on andhear how things are made and how
people describe them.
And the reason for that is Iwant to strip away all of these
preconceived notions.
That usually happens in theprocess of creating something.
For instance, if you're making aproduct, you've done some
(06:26):
research, product designers andengineers have gotten involved
and they create, you know, aproduct based on a set of
features that they know orbenefits that they know their
customer wants.
But what happens is they startwrapping that into their own
language and they become verynot just prideful about it and
they should be own language.
And they become very, not justprideful about it and they
(06:47):
should be, but a little too, Iguess maybe another way to say
is they've lost sight of whatthe customer or how the customer
wants to talk about it orexperience it.
They're talking about it fromtheir perspective.
So in these sessions we usuallytalk a lot about you know, how
does it work, what does it do,who are the people that are
impacted by it, and we ask why?
About a hundred different waysand somewhere in there we find
(07:08):
out the true meaning of what theproduct was and why it was
created, and you know, from thatstandpoint we're able to start
to get to who's using it and whythey're using it.
And that's the foundation of agood story.
If you know who's using it, whythey're using it, then you can
create, you know, apply somestory based principles to making
that a story.
Eric Eden (07:32):
When you've done these discovery sessions with
clients, have you sometimes comeup with things that you were
totally unexpected?
Timothy Kalinowski (07:41):
Oh for sure, it happens all the time.
You know, there was onerecently with a customer, a
product-based company, and theywanted to get launched into some
new markets.
They wanted to expand theirbusiness a little bit, and so
they contacted us to help.
And one of the things that cameout of the discovery sessions
(08:02):
was, almost unilaterally,everybody agreed that they were
the best kept secret in theindustry, meaning nobody knew
who they were.
So there's a gigantic problemif nobody knows who you are.
So then we're able to startpulling on that thread to go
okay, why does nobody know whoyou are?
What are you hiding?
Why haven't you been out there?
(08:23):
And they really have just madesuch a good product.
They've lived on referrals forover a hundred years and they've
never tried to marketthemselves or put themselves out
there.
So as the economy tightened,things changed, regulations have
changed, they needed to hustleand get into some new places and
they needed to introducethemselves kind of for the first
(08:44):
time in a hundred years, andthat really started to stone a
path to find the right story forthem.
That's great.
Eric Eden (08:54):
So when you're going through this process and you
get to some of those really goodinsights, what makes a really
good brand story, what makes itcome together?
Timothy Kalinowski (09:09):
So interesting, and we've been
hired by some very, very largecompanies to come in and even
help train people on how to tellstories for meetings.
Even you know how to present toexecutive members or how
executive members can presentout or talk to board members the
principle and it's really not agiant secret if you've ever
(09:30):
taken an English class, but youmay have heard of Gustav Freitag
, which Gustav was the firstperson to look at honestly plays
, theater, and how they weretelling stories, and he started
to map what was happening andthere was this kind of
underlying theme and consistencythat he kept noticing.
And if you look it up you'llsee that there's, you know,
(09:52):
typically five parts to this,but essentially it's, there's a
rising action, a falling actionand things kind of come together
.
As you know, that that, thatpinnacle of the story, the, the,
the point where it all startsto come together.
And so the rising action isusually describing what the
challenge is, what thatopportunity is.
And so the rising action isusually describing what the
challenge is, what thatopportunity is.
And so, from a brand standpointyou know, maybe it's a pen or a
(10:15):
pencil that you're trying tosell, right?
And so that rising action, justlike some of the old sales you
know, sell me this pen.
It's understanding and tellingpeople why they kind of, why
they need that pen, becauseyou've already done the
listening, so you're repeatingthat back to them.
You understand who they are,and it's it's not just because
they need to write somethingdown, it's are you writing a
(10:36):
check to buy a new house, or youknow it's.
You start to get into theemotion of what they're doing
with it and why it's importantto them.
Right.
And then the falling action isthat resolution which is oh, you
need this pen.
This pen gets you through it,but it's understanding that
tension between those two andhow to answer those callings.
Eric Eden (10:57):
Yeah, that makes sense, and it seems like there's
a pretty big disparity incompanies who are good at brand
storytelling and companies thatare not good at brand
storytelling.
Right, I mean, like, what haveyou observed is the difference
in the results from companieswho deploy really good brand
(11:20):
storytelling versus those whodon't?
Timothy Kalinowski (11:24):
Well, let's, let's use Apple right.
I use a lot of Apple products.
I think a lot of people useApple products.
Probably half of your users arebetter have iPhones in their
pocket right now.
Apple, from an early time,decided that they were going to
talk about the experience andkind of that benefit to the user
of having that product not allof the features in the product,
(11:47):
right, not all of the featuresin the product right.
So think about television spotsor advertisements for the
iPhone.
They're not talking about thephone.
They're talking about filmingsomebody's birthday party and
capturing memories andexperiences along the way.
It has nothing to do withhaving a phone, it's just that
this device happens to be inyour pocket.
(12:07):
So when your kid's birthdayparty pops up and you don't have
a camera, you're holding yourphone and you're recording
what's going on and it'shappening real time.
Those are the types of storiesthat people resonate with.
Eric Eden (12:21):
Yeah, that makes sense.
I'm curious how do you thinkbrand storytelling is changing
in the world we live in today,with TikTok and everyone having
a smartphone?
Do you think it's evolved?
Timothy Kalinowski (12:40):
There's no doubt.
It's constantly evolving, so itactually makes it more
important to get really good atthis.
So, statistically, in the U S,an adult sees over a hundred
thousand words a day between allof the platforms that we use,
which is a staggering number.
If I said to you, did you know?
You read probably a hundredthousand words a day, I pretty
(13:02):
sure you tell me there's no wayI do that, but statistically
that's true.
And so we start to kind of selfedit everything around us.
Right, how fast do you scrollthrough something?
You see something, you don'twait for it to finish if it
doesn't capture you right away.
And that's really the essenceof what a consumer is today.
If you can't capture theirattention right away, you've
(13:25):
lost them and there is noconversion, there is no click
through, there is no sale,there's no new lead.
You have to capture theirattention and you're not going
to do that unless you have areally good story.
Eric Eden (13:37):
How important do you think brand storytelling is?
And business to business versusbusiness to consumer?
Is it equally important?
Timothy Kalinowski (13:48):
Yeah, very much so, and I think in my
experience and I've done almost30 years now, probably as much
B2B as I have B2C projects andwhat I think probably frustrates
me the most is oftentimespeople forget that consumers are
(14:10):
consumers.
If I'm a B2B buyer and I gohome and I'm a B2C buyer, I
didn't completely change mypersonality.
I've just gone from one placeto another place and I can
appreciate that when somebodytells me a story or somebody
connects with me for a productor service that I need to buy,
(14:30):
whether it's at work or at home,that line between traditional,
oh, b2b can only be in theseplaces and B2C can only be in
these places and you can onlytalk to people this way, that
line is blurred because foralmost 20 years, since this
increase in social media forsure the last 10 or 15, people
(14:52):
want things that are quicker.
We call it snackable.
Sometimes they want quick bites.
You know you even brought up howyou know you can tell on your
podcast how long people want tolisten.
There is a reason for that.
It doesn't have to be one orthe other, but how we create
stories, how we talk to peopleand how we engage with people
(15:12):
isn't like it used to be.
It is very similar now and theattention span is just as quick.
91% of consumers, whetherthey're B2B or B2C, want
authentic conversations withtheir customers or with the
brands that they're buying.
I mean so if 91% of yourcustomers are telling you that
you need to be more authenticand more engaged with them,
(15:33):
that's not a difference betweenB2B and B2C.
That's just the state of the US consumer.
Eric Eden (15:40):
Yeah, I agree with that a hundred percent.
That makes a lot of sense.
I think there's a lot ofdiscussion about, in particular,
in B2B.
You know, about what is theright balance between branding,
focus and generating demand, how, how should people really think
(16:04):
about that?
What is a what is a fairbalance?
And what we've been talkingabout with branding, brand
storytelling and then generatingdemand?
How should people think aboutthat?
Timothy Kalinowski (16:16):
if you think of the conversation I just had
with authenticity right, if yourbrand isn't a really strong
brand, right, customers will paymore.
Statistically, they pay moreand they're willing to go
further for a brand that theytrust, right?
So when you're looking at, howare you converting sales?
And what does that mean?
Nuts and bolts, at the end, ifyour brand is a weak brand, if
(16:39):
you don't have a great brandstory, if you're not a brand
that people recognize, if you'renot trying to be a brand that
recognizes something that looksand feels really good, now
you're a commodity and peoplearen't going to pay as much for
a commodity, so it can work andyou can sell things as a
commodity.
People do it on Amazon all thetime and I get into this
(17:00):
argument where, hey, if I buyenough ad space and I just push
things out there and I'm sellingit cheap enough, fast enough, I
can make money in volume andthey're right.
But that's not a lastingproposition either, because, as
a business owner and a lot ofsmall business owners and
occasionally we do work withsmall business owners they're
living and dying by repeatbusiness Because it's hard For a
(17:22):
B2C business.
You're talking anywhere from$50 to $150 for a customer
acquisition cost, meaning whenyou're putting ad spend out and
you're trying to market topeople, every one new customer
you've had to spend 50 to $150on average, and sometimes it's
higher, to get a new customer.
(17:43):
I rarely see a lower than 50.
Now if you're B2B and it's, youknow, at a larger scale, where
maybe a customer lead time is ayear, that cost is somewhere
between three to five, even$7,000 per customer.
So you want repeat customersbecause the acquisition cost is
so high.
(18:03):
You're either out there chasingthe bottom of the barrel and
just trying to sell things as acommodity or you're trying to
build a business and build abrand, and that's the biggest
difference that I see.
Eric Eden (18:16):
You have to have a high customer lifetime value
right.
Timothy Kalinowski (18:20):
Yeah.
Eric Eden (18:21):
The acquisition costs worthwhile Is, that is,
that the moral of the story.
Timothy Kalinowski (18:25):
Moral of the story, you know, we see things
all the time where somebody islike oh, I'm going to sell a
t-shirt on Etsy or I'm justgoing to, you know, do something
quick.
And they do, they make money atit, but they're not creating a
brand, and when that sale orthat product is done or gone,
the business is gone.
I mean, you're just makingquick sales.
Eric Eden (18:46):
You got to think about all the value you can get,
including repeat sales upsells.
That makes a lot of sense, whypeople understanding who you are
, knowing you, trusting you, hasa big impact on that.
So let me ask you what is thebest advice you could give about
(19:07):
brand storytelling, based onall the work you've done on it
over the years?
Timothy Kalinowski (19:13):
years.
The best advice Listen, makeyourself and your team listen.
Just kind of separate yourselfyour ego, everything else that's
in front of you, and look offto the side and listen to your
customers and try and understandthem to the best of your
ability.
Because I promise you, if youreally understand them and you
(19:35):
really kind of get into thoselittle nuggets of how they live
their life and what's happeningin their life, you will find a
rich, rich place in which youcan grab ideas and start
communicating stories.
Eric Eden (19:51):
Yeah, I think everybody has to work extra hard
to set aside our preconceivednotions or theses about certain
things.
You know, very smart peoplecome in with strong opinions
about how they think thingsshould be people in the
(20:18):
corporate ivory tower.
If you will come up with theseideas, you know, without talking
to the people on the frontlines of the company, without
talking to the customers, andthey come up with stories they
tell themselves that just don'tmake any sense and they're not
authentic.
You know to your point.
So I think that that isrequires some more muscle memory
than than most people realize,because I think our tendency is
(20:40):
to tell ourselves, tellourselves some really
interesting stories, right?
absolutely the stories we tellourselves.
Any final thoughts?
Timothy Kalinowski (20:54):
what I would tell everybody is this is the
fun part of you know, your Imean, let's assume the funnest
part is you know you have themost fun when you're making a
sale and converting a sale, butI personally I think this is the
the second most fun thing thata business will do, which is
understand their customers andhave a conversation with them
(21:16):
and talk to them in a way thatshows that you know what matters
to them, and that's kind of theheart of where it's at.
And it takes a little bit ofpatience and a little bit of
time, but not that much you know, and I find I've done really
expensive research projects withcompanies to try and get new
(21:37):
insights.
And what I find is if youreally sit and ask each other
and kind of strip away all ofyour preconceived notions of
your customers, you will findthe answer, and you probably
already have the answer, andthen it's just a matter of going
out executing then either doingit yourself or finding a team
like mine that can help you getthere.
Eric Eden (21:58):
I love it and every day when I talk to customers and
tell them a brand story, I cantell when it's resonating with
them and when it's notresonating with them.
And you know, often over theyears, at different companies
telling different stories aboutdifferent brands of, like, wow,
(22:20):
we really need to change thisstory because this is just not
working.
Like you know when it's notworking when you're sitting with
somebody, like you're saying,and you also do know when it is
really working, Like the flipside of it is also true when
people are with you and they'renodding their head and they're
not on their phone and they'reengaged and they're excited.
(22:41):
You can like see it in theireyes, right?
I think that's the thrill ofvictory, right?
Timothy Kalinowski (22:47):
Absolutely.
I mean, I think you said itreally well, you know, in terms
of seeing those results andunderstanding what's happening.
You know we live in a verydigital age right now and you
know, compared to when I startedmy career, we didn't.
You know you do anadvertisement.
You might put a little, aspecial phone number, a code at
(23:08):
the bottom of a print ad to tryand figure out who saw it or
where they were calling from orwhat magazine it was in they
were calling from or whatmagazine it was in.
You know, nowadays you'reclicking something and we're
tracking from the point it'sclicked all the way through.
So if you have a good digitalmedia agency who's helping you
buy media and we do this forclients all the time you know
(23:28):
we're able to tell you wherethey're coming from, where they
went, what they did.
And if an ad isn't resonating,especially if you have several
out there, you know we're on adaily basis for any individual
customer, client we're lookingat is this image working, is
that image working, is thisheadline working better than
this one?
And we're analyzing that stuffevery day.
(23:50):
So you know, I've, I've, I hadsomebody from a very large
company talk to me and say hey,no, we've got some new ads out.
We've been running them for sixmonths and our agency says we
should probably know if it'sworking in another couple of
months.
And my answer to them is you'regetting taken for a ride
because you will know.
You know very quickly sometimesdays, but for sure within weeks
(24:13):
if things are resonating or notresonating.
And you know it's up to you tomake those changes, because
you're spending the money andnot going anywhere with it and
most likely you didn't have theright story.
Eric Eden (24:25):
Yeah, that's.
The benefit of the golden eraof technology we live in today
is that the feedback is a lotmore real time.
You don't have to wait for longperiods of time like that.
Well, I really appreciate youbeing with us today, sharing all
of your stories and yourinsights.
I'm going to link to yourwebsite so if people want to get
(24:46):
in touch and chat with you moreabout this, they can do so
Really appreciate you being onthe show today, thank you.
Timothy Kalinowski (24:53):
Thank you so much, eric, really appreciate
it.
I hope everybody does great andpicks this up and starts
telling wonderful stories.
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