June 12, 2024 • 58 mins
Moneke Fields introduces "Remarkably Simple" and welcomes Dr. Kendra Washington-Bass. They discuss the unique pressures faced by leaders of color and women, the inception of the Leader Bubble concept, and the critical role of adaptive leadership in education. The conversation highlights the importance of mentors, emotional processing, setting boundaries, and maintaining personal well-being. Resources like Leader Bubble and the Lucy Leadership Project are also explored.
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(00:00):
I can't.
And I would hate leaders to feel that thatweight on top of just the weight of leadership.
Like, so so now compounded oppressive weight onyou based on your identity, based on your lived
experiences.
And then the role, it's not sustainable.
(00:23):
And I think that's why we have so many leadersof color and women sort of, step away because
the environment is not conducive to what theyneed.
Are you ready to unlock your full potential andachieve your personal professional and
financial goals.
Welcome to remarkably simple.
(00:43):
The podcast dedicated to helping you do justthat.
I'm Monique Fields, and I believe that with theright strategies anyone can achieve remarkable
results.
Whether you're a season leader or just startinga business.
This podcast is your guide to achieving yourgoals with simplicity and efficiency.
Let's on this journey together and make success
(01:04):
simple.
Alright, everybody.
It's Monique Fields here again, and I'm excitedto introduce you to another wonderful guest.
Today, we have with us doctor Kendra WashingtonBass.
She is the leader of the leader bubble, andshe'll get to tell us a little bit about that
(01:26):
amazing project in just a moment.
She is also the author of unwrapped the pursuitof justice for black women educators.
And she is a coleader of the Lucy leadershipproject.
Kendra, thank you so much for joining us on theshow today.
Thank you.
When you gave that introduction, I'm like,well, how many jobs do I have?
(01:51):
Exactly.
Exactly.
Many wonderful jobs.
Yeah.
Thank you for having me.
I appreciate it.
Yes.
It's so great.
So I'm excited to let everybody get to know alittle bit about who you are and what you do.
So I'd love for you to start out by justtelling us about what it is that you're doing
right now, and maybe if you'll just slide in alittle bit of what motivated you to start doing
(02:14):
this work.
Yeah.
So I'll start with, how I like to enter anyspace with grounding who I am.
I am the 6th great granddaughter of YellaSarah, who was an enslaved woman on the
Berkeley Plantation in Richmond, Virginia.
She still is there today.
(02:34):
The Berkeley Plantation is still there.
It's a museum and garden for people to takepictures, but my ancestors are on that hallowed
ground.
And I come from her.
I come from a woman who was resilient I comefrom a woman who in insurmountable challenges
(02:55):
was able to continue to build a legacy in whichI'm derived.
And why I am here today is because of thatlegacy that is in my veins.
It's part of my DNA.
It's who my mother is is who my grandmotherwas, is who my great grandmother was.
So, I start there and honor her in the space.
(03:19):
Thinking about leadership, and what shaped mewas was the strong resilience perseverance of
the women in my life who were extreme examplesfor me of leadership while people we'll take a
look at sort of nationally known leaders.
I did not have to look far.
(03:42):
Within my Harlem apartment, see how the womenin my family took care of everything.
They were the decision makers.
They were the holders of money.
They were, they sacrifice.
They teeter tottered on certain priorities.
(04:03):
They exemplified what leaders do.
And at the same time, they were humble, bold,vulnerable, and knew that they were part of
something larger than who they were.
(04:25):
So that that's what brings me to the work.
I'm much more appreciative of that as I startedto go through my own journey and understanding
how I came to be.
And and that's where, you know, the book ofunwrapped the pursuit of justice for women
educators comes into play because I had toreally understand me and go through my origin
(04:48):
story in order to understand how I led as aprinciple how I even became an educator.
That story is in there as well as what I do nowto help support leaders, particularly women
leaders in the work.
And I think that has helped ground me in graceand space that led to leader bubble, that that
(05:15):
idea of giving people time to think givingpeople time to wrestle with decisions so that
they make the best ones and the best interestsfor students.
So that's a little bit about me.
I just kind of a little play on unwrapping alittle bit about who I am.
(05:35):
Yeah.
I think, you said, as you said, it's a little,but it's also a lot.
And I I I love how you just succinctly sharedthat you're so well resourced that a part of it
is your actual origin.
Mhmm.
And that's sort of undergirding that you havebecause of the history and, you know, the
(05:59):
heritage that you carry and that you have,being aware of that owned that connection and
this, maybe there's a better word, butresponsibility to carry, right, in the same way
that the women before you.
But I love how you also share that a part of itis the experience that you had in, you know,
(06:22):
discovering who you were as a leader.
Mhmm.
And, it sounds like you have been on a journeythat brings you now to a place where you want
to help others Fields, normalize, and be theirstrongest and most well resourced Fields.
Mhmm.
I think this idea of the bubble, you know, wehear it talked about as a it's like a retreat,
(06:47):
but it almost sounds like you're creating aspace that's not intended to be inside of
permanently for section, but a place where youdraw from.
Correct.
You know, the resource that you need so thatyou're able to really accomplish what it is
that you do desire in the world.
Yeah.
And, I would love for you to just describe forus or share with us a little bit about, what it
(07:08):
is that you help leaders do as they are,spending time in this space.
Yeah.
Well, I think I take it from my own experienceand understanding, the structure of schooling,
the structure of education.
And I I'm specifically talking about a a aneducational leader.
(07:31):
And I think about my own upbringing intraditional principleship in my my journey
there.
You know, you I go you go to principal schooland you learn all of these things, and many of
them are very technical.
(07:54):
But the true work of leadership is adaptive.
The true work of leadership requires adifferent level of understanding requires also
more time for transformation to occur, yetwe're in systems where the sense of urgency
drives decisions made so quickly without muchtime to really be able to understand what the
(08:19):
problem is to uncover what could be some of thedifferent strategies that you can use.
And I understand the urgency.
We're talking about you know, human beings thatare in our care, stoop, and communities that
are leaning on education systems to helpimprove the world.
(08:42):
However, when we go with that structure andthat flow of everything is on fire and
everything is an urgency.
We get the results that we get, which iscontinued disparities, continued, lack of
academic progress specifically for minoritycommunities and just burnt out human beings who
(09:05):
are just on this path of just doing, doing,doing, doing.
So the thought bubble or the leader bubble wasmoments and times in my career where I was
afforded the opportunity to do so, and itwasn't because I was given a coach by the
district to do that.
(09:26):
It was because there were individuals whoinformally became my mentors and coaches who
stopped me and said pause.
And even though I was, like, in the state of Ican't I don't wanna pause.
They, like, physically, in some cases, like,stop.
(09:48):
Breathe.
Before you move to make this decision, let'sjust talk about why you wanna do it.
What is circling your mind?
Do you have enough information?
They they gave me that time Right?
(10:09):
And that's when I saw the most clarity.
That's when I was the most sure.
That was when I was the most successful.
So I started leader bubble initially thinkingabout turnkey that lesson, that learning, into
some purposeful coaching opportunities,purposeful workshop opt, purposeful pausing.
(10:37):
As we were talking in the preparation for this,you said, oh, you're an external processor.
Yes.
I will talk, talk, talk, and I will say, pleasedo not take what I initially say at the
beginning of the conversation as what I believeat this moment.
I am processing out loud for you.
I am going through, you know, this cognitiveexercise to hear myself.
(11:03):
So I have created for myself the thoughtprocess.
Like, I'm intentionally doing that out loud.
And then when I get to the period, right, whenI get to that final sentence with the period at
the end, that probably where the decision willbe made, but it wasn't when I first started
talking.
(11:24):
So the leader bubble of the thought bubble ideais giving people that space.
Now this is grounded not only in my ownexperience, but in you know, the the research
of social psychology around the way people makedecisions.
Mhmm.
That is people make decisions emotionallyfirst, rationally second.
(11:49):
They have been Nobel, Laureates, doctorates inpsychology who have, you know, said, look, you
know, you and Mick Noggle will hijack youfirst.
Right?
You respond in that way.
So give people time to process emotionally.
Exactly.
So that when they have to make the decision,they've processed or they've had the the
(12:13):
emotional time to sort of let things sink in,let things sort of wash over, do all of that.
That's the same for school leaders.
And so that that's what my intention is.
I I hope that every conversation that I leaveis enriching because I've given space.
(12:34):
To those individuals and created some habitsthat they can use going forward.
To build that into the way that they lead.
I think what's so beautiful about what youdescribe is as we both know, I was a school
lead for a total of 9 years Mhmm.
(12:54):
Out of the 24 that I served, 4 as an assistantprincipal, and 5 as a principal.
And I would say that this is one of thesticking points for me that there was not a
space.
And we we also talked in the prep conversationabout some of the work that I did that ended up
bringing me to the area of coaching leaders.
(13:17):
In the first place was that I was on a pathwhere I was seeking that it wasn't that I
didn't have a performance coach or
Nice.
You know, this that or the other formal supportBut the thing that I absolutely was missing was
this ability that we're talking about rightnow, that there was a space that was safe and
even expected for me to show up as a humanbeing and do the processing that I needed to do
(13:41):
in order to remain capable to make thosesometimes very tough decisions that led to the
effective results that we really needed tohave.
And I think this, is just such a beautiful andempowering effort to normalize this sort of
space, but more importantly, like really strongcoaches do, just hold the space.
(14:02):
Invite people into the space and create that,that environment that I think really is very
empowering for people.
It
brings up another question for me because Iknow that you've had many years of experience
and you spoke about how when you were in yourearly years, a leader, you had some people pull
you aside and say, look, stop.
(14:25):
My mind flooded then with memories of towardthe end of my service when someone did that to
me.
They literally arrested me.
Not literally.
Yes.
But almost physically made me sit downs stop,breathe, and drink water.
Like, no criticism.
We're not thinking about any criticism rightnow.
We're not doing any of that.
We are taking a moment.
(14:45):
And forced me a bottle of water.
Yeah.
And that just brings up to my to my mind.
I know that you're working with people and,that education leaders and everyone in
education is a leader to some degree, even theteacher in the classroom, right?
But many people are in the throes of it.
And daily dealing with the challenges and thecharge that they've been given, the goals that
(15:07):
they're trying to accomplish.
And I wonder what are some of the challengesthat you see people facing as it relates to
having an appropriate space to process what'sgoing on And how are you seeing that affecting?
You talked a little bit about we're on ahamster wheel where we want to achieve things,
but we're really not getting it done.
(15:28):
So I just want you to talk a little more about,you know, what are you seeing that people could
really benefit from having the space that youdescribe that you're creating in the leader
bubble?
So there are just competing priorities that arecoming forward.
And those competing priorities are coming frommultiple places.
(15:53):
So for example, as a school leader, a teacherin the classroom, even a student, there
are
mandates or policies that are federal, thenthere are the state ones, then there are the
district ones, Then there are the school ones,then there are classroom ones, and here is a
(16:17):
student in the classroom.
So I'm a take the student perspective, gettingall of that.
And it gets translated by multiple people.
So it's filtered to multiple people withoutreally clear expectations for what it is
actually we're intending to do.
So people feel the pressure to do somethingwith lack of clarity, There's sometimes a lack
(16:40):
of understanding about what it really takes toteach in 2024.
Mhmm.
And then there are so many other factors thatschools are contending with that creates also
an additional confusion.
Is it the school's role to do that thing inthis community, for this group of kids, in this
(17:06):
place, I mean, I think when we looked at whathappened in 2020 during the the the school sort
of suspension of the actual physical place ofschool and, and the impact it had on teachers
and the impact it had on communities, we sawhow much school plays a role in the economy.
(17:34):
Right?
Like, people weren't upset Some people wereupset that kids were not in school.
They were upset they were in school becausepeople had to go to work.
Right.
Right.
I mean, just it's so so it's like, get thosekids back in school because I gotta go to work.
Not let's have the kids go back to school.
Because we want them to learn, well, they stillwere learning, like, schools maybe physically
(17:58):
close, but the idea of education didn't.
Mhmm.
But even just the idea of what school isintended to do is not clear.
And what has happened is that it becomes thecatch all for everything that happens in
society.
So schools are inspected to not only educateFields, they expect it to, create sort of
(18:23):
morals and values for how kids should followThey're expected to attend to students mental
well-being.
They're expected to attend to students physicalwell-being.
Like, It's a school system that is so large interms of what is expected to do, and it changes
(18:43):
every single day.
And schools are caught in the middle of that.
Individuals are caught in the middle of that.
And then there's a level of expectation right,around academics.
I say all that to say is now I'm a leadertrying to figure out what I'm going to do.
I'm using my best learn advice, best academic,sort of practices.
(19:13):
I'm using the right pedagogy.
So I think and then once I get my feet maybestudy on the ground.
Something shifts.
Okay.
We're changing that math curriculum.
Okay.
We're changing the language arts.
No.
You did this type of literacy before that'sbad.
We're now gonna do this one.
(19:34):
And you have 60 days to get everyone sort oframped up, and we're gonna go full, you know,
district wide implementation in 90 days.
Oh, and by the way, you have to hire newteachers.
You have to train them.
You you oh, your building is about to have arenovation.
You gotta move that.
(19:54):
Like, All of that happens.
When do you have time?
To even be arrested.
Like you said, to sit down and even think whenso many people and things are coming at you.
And yet, Monique, it is doable.
(20:18):
It is.
It does require courage.
It does require some Commitment to controllingthe situation.
To be able to push back a bit on people andsay, stop.
(20:41):
I'm going to need, like, you have to you haveto tell people what you want and need.
I'm gonna need 2 to 3 days to understand this.
Like, you can ask, but people don't even thinkthat they can.
A lot of it has to do with experiences, right,but the relationships that happen within school
districts or within education agencies withthis hierarchy has been created that, you know,
(21:07):
can can harm relationships and harm whatsupport could look like.
So people tend to hide.
They're scared.
They're they're, you know, the spaces are notmeant to to help with vulnerability.
And yet you just need 1 or 2 courageous peopleto go, stop.
Stop.
I'm I'm gonna need some time.
(21:27):
And I'm gonna need an opportunity to unpackwhat is happening.
And if they can't do that, then people like meand you can help do that to give that space and
time.
So that's that's the challenge And yet, if youwanna be a successful leader, it does also
(21:51):
require you to feed your own soul and to takecontrol of your own professional learning and
well-being so that you can show up to be thebest leader in the middle of all this.
Listen.
Leadership is hard.
The most the most lauded the most admiredleaders, they're bad, have been in a pickle.
(22:20):
In their lives.
That's why they're leaders.
That's why they show, and it's dangerous.
We know that some of our leaders have made theultimate sacrifice when they've, you know, gone
first, when they've spoken up, when they've,led a movement And so it is a scary thing to do
(22:43):
is to be a leader, and yet we need leaders.
We need them.
And so if you're in that space, the challengesare part of the that is part of the job.
So how are you going to stay healthy?
Who are you surrounding yourself with?
How are you gonna ask for what you and need inthose spaces in order to be the leader that you
(23:07):
need to be.
So, I heard several things that really resonatewith me out of you know, what you said, I'll
try to hang on to all of them.
But one of the first things that comes to mindis the importance of I don't think we need to
be taught as as much as we need to be reminded,and we sometimes need support to normalize.
(23:28):
Even if we are not speaking the words, I need aminute.
We think it.
Yeah.
But what, like you said, what some what you andI are able to do is help people talk through
that and find the words that they're notaccustomed to using.
So that they can develop that skill and thatpractice and strengthen their ability, to be
(23:50):
able to create that space where it's necessary.
1 of one leader that I admire that I workedwith in the past, she did exactly that.
And I didn't know how to broker that for myselfwhen I became the lead at my school, but
thinking back, one of the things that Iremember her doing in some of the very tough
moments Sometimes it would be on a telephonecall, sometimes it would be in an email, but
(24:14):
she had this particular language, and I quote,in order to proceed.
I need, and she would list.
That doesn't mean that it would always behonored, but she had absolutely developed the
agency to say I'm here to do this job.
I'm here for it.
And I'm gonna need these things.
And it wasn't a princess list, right?
(24:35):
It was it's space, it's time, it's resources,it's whatever it is that's gonna equip me to
take on this challenge.
I agree with you 100%.
That the challenges are there.
They are to be expected.
And to your point, like, when you're inleadership, you don't expect it to be a cake
walk, so to speak.
You know that you have signed up to do thetough work.
The other thing I was gonna share is that in myown experience, this is exactly what I sought.
(25:00):
And it's for support were in place, but theywere not necessarily environments where I felt
or even saw demonstrated with others' examplesthat it was safe to be vulnerable.
Right.
And so I needed to find or create space formyself to have the support that I needed.
(25:29):
So I love that you are advancing this thisapproach to ensure that our leaders and servant
leaders are well equipped.
And, to the last point that you said aboutnurturing their soul, Right.
I started to have this epiphany that, I waslosing my personal resource that I was running
(25:59):
out of energy to continue Mhmm.
Showing up that I was not an endless well ofability to continue to show up in the way that
I expected myself to and that others did.
So this point that you make about feeding yoursoul.
That is so important, and I've been to so manyleader meetings where the statement is made.
(26:19):
Okay.
Make sure you take care of yourself.
But there really aren't structures for that.
Right.
And I think I don't mean to say that it'scomplicated because I think it is simple, but
there is work that you must do in order tomaintain your own well-being while you are
pulled, as you said, with so many completingpriorities.
(26:41):
To, take care of the needs of others.
So I think this is so, it's like, it's heavy.
But it's also simultaneously very excitingbecause I think it's exactly what education
Fields, and I know that you're as passionate asI am while I am not actively serving in
schools.
Yeah.
I haven't given up.
It's a little bit like I want to undergird thepeople who are on the ground and serve in a way
(27:06):
that I know the systems are not Eithercurrently doing or perhaps able to because as
you said, there's histories and environmentsand hierarchies that have been set up.
And, you know, if somebody's gonna go beleading the movement to change all of that, I I
pray I praise them for that work, but it's justnot the the mission that I connect with.
I wanna support the individuals.
(27:28):
So I love that you are, helping people do this.
And then I wonder, what kind of challenges orsetbacks do you see people experience as they
are starting to practice this this function oftaking time, creating space, having
partnerships with people like yourself who can,help them practice this this processing.
(27:55):
What are some of the things that you see thatare getting in the way of people and How do you
advise that they maintain the space once theystart to create it?
Yeah.
So one of the most interesting things, thatcome out of some of the work I do in Lucy
Leadership Project, because that's specificallyaround women.
(28:16):
And that's an example I would give, which is,We do workshops around well-being specifically
for women and boundary setting.
Mhmm.
So I'll I'll talk a little bit about sort ofwhat we see with women in in general and then
how this also sort of spills over intoleadership in general.
(28:38):
This is about breaking a cycle ofsocialization.
Mhmm.
So so when people begin to practice this, thisopt this this time, this space.
What could happen is pressures can build ordoubt can creep in and they can go right back
(28:58):
to what was comfortable even though thatcomfort was steeped in discomfort.
Right?
And I know it sounds weird to say, but it'slike, yo, I got comfortable being
Yeah.
Miserable.
Visible and oppressed was at least I knew whatit was.
Now this is new territory, and I'm controllingit.
(29:19):
The person that I can blame is myself now.
Whereas before, I can blame somebody else.
So the the scariness of having that type ofcontrol, while there is liberation and freedom
in it, This airiness of, oh, this all falls onme now can have a person sort of revert back to
(29:43):
sort of old habits.
So that's and and for women, that's what itcomes to play.
The second piece is the environment around ithas not caught up to your newfound insight.
And so peoples begin to question why you aremaking these moves, and then you can tend to
think Well, they think I'm selfish, and I don'twanna be seen as selfish.
(30:08):
So I'm gonna be selfless and go back to justyou know, being everything for everyone versus
taking care of myself.
So even though you can get to, like, you know,put the math on first before helping anyone
else, and they tell you that in a plane.
When you do it in real life, you can tend tothink of it as a selfish act versus truly the
(30:30):
nature of I have to be well in order to doreally good things and service to the people
Mhmm.
That is under my care.
So that's that's part of sort of theconditioning that happens.
And then in leadership in general, again, it'sthat urgency when you When you are looking at
your data, when you're looking at communityfeedback and hearing, like, things are not
(30:52):
moving fast enough, and you have the audacityto slow yourself up to give yourself some time
to that's that's not leadership like.
And therefore, people will tend to revert tothat, revert back to those habits that are
counterintuitive yet the expectation and normcircling around, say, you just have to be in
(31:19):
constant move.
If you're you're not a leader, if you're notdoing something.
Right?
It I think a lot of it has to do with sort of,capitalistic societal norms about what
productivity looks like.
Mhmm.
What success looks like is being busy andchecking off boxes.
(31:44):
Yet in education, if we really looked at whatsuccess looks like and we look at our data of
how kids are performing in this country, It'snot so.
So what do you do?
Work more.
Do more.
Keep moving.
No, you don't have time to think.
And no time to give yourself some rest.
(32:07):
I I see there is a you know, there is somemovement, at least on the student's side,
especially after COVID, to pay more attentionto social emotional needs of kids.
Mhmm.
Right?
So they're they're the brain breaks thatchildren are being incorporated in the
(32:29):
classroom or even restorative practices asstudents are sort of wrestling with you know,
decisions they've made, in the day, you know,how to sort of regulate emotions and stuff like
that.
They're like, okay.
This is This is really important for kids.
And still there's this fight about how muchtime we give to kids to do those things versus
(32:51):
the academic priorities, and yet we don't dothat for the adults.
So it's just it's not reaching there.
And, again, when you have someone, I would sayI was I I was I went through that transfer
transformation for myself.
And I was just like, you know, I'm not doingthat.
(33:14):
I'm I'm I'm not gonna take the work home overthe weekend and do that thing.
At 5 o'clock, I'm stopping.
Like, I can I can't give you my best thinkingif I'm spent?
So why am I gonna keep why am I gonna get tonegative?
And it's 7 o'clock, 8 o'clock, and a laptop.
(33:36):
So I mean, I I was the person who came homefrom work to do work.
And I hustled in that way thinking that wasgoing to be looked at at favorably.
And and quite frankly, it was until I couldn'tgive anymore until it spilled over into my
(33:59):
personal life until until I burnt out.
And I needed to do something different.
And it really started with just a mindset.
Like, why am I doing this?
Who am I doing this for?
Am I being my best when I do this?
Like, I had to ask a series of questions.
(34:21):
And the other thing, Monique, is I did have asupport group of people who told me the truth
even when it hurt.
Not those who I was like, no.
You're fine.
It's like, like, you're off.
(34:41):
You have killed her.
Oh, why are you doing that?
Like, just my husband was 1, you know, familymembers, good good friends and mentor and I say
good because these are the people who who will,like, when you make that change, Kent, I'm a be
right there to support you.
When that shift happens.
And I needed them when I made the decision tonot do and to break that habit of working to
(35:09):
the point of exhaustion, to the point ofsickness.
I mean, we have leaders who are dying on thejob.
Who are
Some of them coming near death and going back.
And going back to the environments and goinggood gracious.
How is that good for any what And what modelare we providing for those who want to jump
(35:30):
into this arena?
Like I
think we're providing a model a convincingmodel that it's not worthwhile.
I think we are we are experiencing the shortagethat means people have seen too clearly how
taxing the work is, but one thing that came tomy a couple of things came to mind while you
were sharing this experience that I connectdirectly with, and I'll just maybe work
(35:55):
backwards.
But I know exactly what you describe about theburnout.
It is the surprise.
Right?
Like, you have not even taken a moment toassess the fact that your energy is running
low.
And it's not like, I mean, I can remember atime when I just stopped going to get my nails
done and have a massage.
It did not help.
Right.
And I know that there are individuals as youdescribe who are facing significant health
(36:21):
challenges because they are losing the abilityto maintain their well-being.
It's more than just taking time to rest or
Right.
You know, getting a full night's sleep, butactually having and maintaining routines that
let you really nourish your body in a way thatkeeps you fit and strong, which you need to be
to do the work that we do.
In schools, but I think something else that youspoke about that's so important is the idea of
(36:46):
community.
And not just people around you and colleagues,but to your point, those good people, so to
speak, and I think everybody Fields to havethat group of individuals who are going to see
the work that you're doing be there with you nomatter what, but also having people who are in
(37:07):
your community that are, they're going to belooking at What are you actually practicing and
ensuring that you keep up the practices thatkeep you doing your best?
Yeah.
I think that one of the You know, I don't Idon't know where it came from, but one of the
things that I am most grateful for is that whenI was in those 9 years of school leadership,
(37:31):
some something motivated me to seek what Ididn't find around me.
And some of the best resources that I am stillgrateful for.
I learned because I placed myself incommunities that were teaching the tools that I
(37:53):
needed for my own well-being and to supportthose around me.
So I think that this idea that leaders, notwait for the system or structure to provide
what their intuition is telling them that theyneed.
I think this is so important because I've seenpeople go with the flow and just accept what
(38:14):
is.
And I think that we have our intuition and allof our inner voice and whichever way that we
say it for a reason, and it's so important.
I do notice that sometimes as you said, thereis quite a lot of attention given now to
student well-being emotional health, emotionalwell-being, psychological well-being.
(38:35):
You pointed out the growth that lots of placesare trying to do to implement restored
practices, I think all of those things are sopowerful.
And I think it's appropriate that it the focushas started with the students, right?
But I don't think that the educators and theleaders of education need to wait to practice
those things themselves.
It will be beautiful when the systems embracethese ideas and, find structures and ways to be
(39:00):
able to, implement these practices.
But the way I see it is many of us have beenset up with a passion and a drive for children
teaching and learning.
And For me, it's not to be left up to thesystem that I work for or the agency that I'm a
part of to ensure that I maintain this energy,this passion, this drive, and the ability to
(39:26):
set sustain for as long as I would like.
My ability to contribute.
And I think this is where the individual agencyof the educators is so important because the
work that needs to be done is not complicated.
It's very simple.
I think the things that you teach people, Idon't know if you would agree that they're very
(39:46):
simple things that need to be done.
The part that's challenging is being consistentabout implementing those practices, and this is
what that community will do.
Because when you are plugged into a communitythat understands what it is that you need to
sustain your passion for 30 or more years.
Right.
You're going to have those regular returns tobut wait, what goal did you identify?
(40:11):
What results are you actually seeing?
And how are you staying on track?
That when you feel like reverting as you talkedabout to what's comfortable, even though it's
miserable, This is the strength of beingplugged into the kind of community that is not
only thinking about whatever is the performancestandard.
They're thinking about your ability to be wellwhile you are trying to accomplish the
(40:32):
impossible.
Yeah.
And that and and, again, I guess the theleadership pathway and leadership training does
not give attention to that.
And therefore, we are operating under sort ofvery antiquated ways in which leadership what
leadership looks like sounds like and feelslike.
And I I just know as as a woman leader, as ablack woman leader culturally you know,
(40:59):
community is a value.
Collectivism is a way of life culturally forme.
Right?
It's in my my DNA, as I said earlier.
And yet, I'm I'm it Fields like I'm in spaceswhere there is, like, We say collaboration, but
there is this competition to be the 1.
(41:21):
Right?
This is idea.
There's there's some cognitive dissonance aboutthe way leadership is and not.
And so being a just being aware of that.
So that's another part of the leader bubblepiece.
It's just this awareness of how you're situatedin your particular role and the positionality
(41:43):
you have, being aware of what is surroundingyou so that you can now navigate it in a way
that keeps you as safe as possible andproductive and also keeps you grounded in who
you are.
And I think that's the other piece that getslost.
I lost myself in leadership.
(42:05):
I was attempting to be like something whateverthis idea of Mhmm.
What it was, the way I looked, the way I dress,sometimes the way I sound, I compromised a lot
of who I was to fit in, and that also weigheddown on my well-being.
There's only so much you can mask who you are.
(42:26):
And when you get to that point, you becomefrustrated.
I became frustrated.
I'll talk about me specifically.
I became frustrated.
I became unrecognizable to myself, to myfamily, to people who really, really knew me,
to those who didn't know me, they were justlike, she's you fit right in.
And I was just like, oh, I'm it's it soundedlike a compliment.
(42:50):
And then in my head, I was like, that doesn'tsound right.
Versus you are who you are in this environment.
And I butt up against that so much internally.
I was having this fight with myself.
And, yeah, I got to a point where I was like, Ican't do this.
Anymore.
I can't.
And I would hate leaders to feel that thatweight on top of just the weight of leadership.
(43:18):
Like, so so now compounded oppressive weight onyou based on your identity, based on your lived
experiences.
And then the role, it's not sustainable.
And I think that's why we have so many leadersof color and women sort of, step away because
(43:41):
the environment is not conducive to what theyneed.
And so that's another piece.
It's just being able to center a leader and go.
So who who are you?
What do you wanna do?
Like, go back to that purpose.
What's your purpose and passion?
How that you asked a question, Kendra.
How did you get here?
(44:01):
I wanna know, how did you get how did youarrive here?
What is your story?
What do you wanna do moving forward?
What have you been doing that is not getting isnot helping you?
Like, and why do you continue to do that?
What's behind that?
Mhmm.
And what would it look like if you just wereyou?
(44:26):
Like, and what are you scared of?
Like, I I really want I want people to reallyuncover those pieces about themselves.
Now again, principal school leadershipprograms, maybe do, like, leadership styles.
They may do something.
They don't go deep in that.
They don't offer someone, a coach to reallycoach who they are to and how they lead?
(44:52):
Because those two things are not mutuallyexclusive.
No.
I think or yes.
I think this is what I was speaking to earlierabout the leader has to recognize it in this
current environment.
If they wanna make an impact, which is exactlywhat I got into it for, I left the classroom
because I realized that outside of theclassroom, I had an opportunity to do what I
(45:15):
was doing for the children I taught directly.
But on a larger scale.
It was not the power.
It was the influence.
How do you work with others to ensure that morechildren have an impact?
But what I did not realize is that I needed toprepare for myself that there was not going to
(45:36):
be attention to who am I, what do I desire asyou're speaking about.
Yeah.
What is my what drives me.
And I think that it is back to what what weboth identify with this sense that you can lose
yourself in the work the systems are not set upto create space for you, and I think it is an
(45:56):
automatic assumption that is very common.
That there cannot be space for you, and it is afallacy.
Yeah.
I think that, in my own experience, Justworking with a coach, I have been able to poke
so many holes in ideas that I long held Yeah.
Accepted and swallowed because I did not seeanother option.
(46:18):
And, one of my favorite questions to ask whenan individual presents to me something that
sounds like a definite idea is okay, but whatelse could be true?
Yeah.
And there may be some reasons why we don'twanna entertain the question.
But, okay, say what those are, and then tell mewhat else could be true.
There is possibility that you find.
And that's not to say that the school or thesystem is gonna bend to your way.
(46:42):
The world doesn't do that for any of us, but Ithink there is space for better performance.
Right?
You know, we've heard this this statement thatoriginal is always better than a copy.
I don't think we get anybody's best creativeproduct when we ask them to be something that
they are not.
And if the environment that an individual isworking in is not one that wants to help them
(47:07):
flourish and thrive as the best individualleader that they can be, then I would just want
to make sure that every leader knew that it isabsolutely worth it to you, because you will
get closer to what it is that is driving you.
That will also satisfy what they're looking forwhen you find the support that helps you figure
out how to be who you are and give the bestgifts that you have through your style and your
(47:35):
personal flair and whatever those pieces are.
So I think this is a very empowering topic andso important.
For individuals to just be aware of what'spossible.
Yep.
And I wonder since we could probably talk awhole history in this area, where people would
(47:56):
follow you And we've been talking about theleader bubble and Lucy leadership project, but
where would you direct people to come and find,Kindra Washington Mass and learn more about the
work that you do to support leaders.
Yes.
Thank you for asking that.
And, yeah, so you can find me in two places.
One is at leaderbubble.com.
(48:17):
So that is where you will see all the servicesthat, I provide including coaching
conversations like this.
So you can find me there, but also on most ofsocial media platforms.
You can also find me atlucyleadershipproject.com, and that is the
space specifically for women educationalleaders.
(48:40):
I cofounded that particular, consultingorganization with Kelly Peaks Horner, and we
are a Cross racial facilitator group.
Part of our work is for us to model theconversations that women have across race.
And also to show what allyship coconspiratorship look like, in the space when we
(49:06):
talk about mentoring and supporting leaders,specifically women leaders.
For both platforms, you can find me onInstagram.
You can find me on TikTok.
As, chief encouragement officer on TikTok.
I
love it.
I'm really getting into TikTok.
But it's so fun, and everybody's over there.
Everyone's over there.
(49:27):
If they don't shut it down, I don't know.
But, you can find me on Instagram, LinkedIn,Kensho Washington Bass, just you know, type in
Kensho Washington BaaS.
But if you just Google me, I think I try tokeep myself you know, pretty clean on the
social media pages, but if you Google me, youcan find, you know, ways to connect with me.
(49:48):
And I look forward to continuing conversationslike this, Monique, I mean, it's timely.
It doesn't get talked about enough.
And I think as people are talking about it, Ijust wanna make a disclaimer.
Like, well-being in this space is just sort ofuncovering.
When you go deeper into well-being and you godeeper into mental well-being, that's for the
(50:13):
clinical psychologist to take
hold of.
I do not do any of that.
Right?
I know some folks who who can help in thatarea, but we're just talking about just taking
a pause.
And situating ourselves in the space ofleadership and why we do what we do and how we
can do it better.
So I appreciate being, available and,supporting the work because this, in the end,
(50:39):
Monique, this is all for students.
This is all of service to the young people thathave a that are betting on us to do right by
them so that they can be the best at who theyare.
Yes.
So, I love to end every chat that I have with,individuals on this show with one question for
(51:01):
you.
Yep.
And that is in some way, there is a commonalityto what we all need, whether we are Educator,
or, you know, leaders in other industries, oras we mentioned earlier, the leader of a
classroom, the leader of a family.
But as we think about, you know, people gettinglost in their work, you know, or perhaps when
(51:25):
people experience this feeling of overwhelm,that leads to burnout and ultimately the
opposite of what we dream, the opposite resultthat we are so passionate about achieving.
What is the one thing that you advise or wouldsuggest that an individual try that would just
(51:46):
help them create a little bit more space to beable to process like we've been discussing in
this conversation today.
What could they try?
Thinking about myself, what did I try?
This is gonna sound real weird, I guess, but, II wouldn't say I did meditation because I don't
(52:18):
this goes back to thinking.
I gave myself some time to to process.
One of the things that I did specifically is Ihad to, like, I had to, like, get away from it.
(52:40):
And I took out a sheet of paper and I wrotedown, and this is one thing I exercise I tell
people to do.
I wrote down, like, I split it in half.
It was like, on one side.
Like, why did I do why am I in this work?
What do I love, love, love about And on theother side, like, what's the thing that I just
(53:02):
can't stand?
Right?
What is what is keeping me from that?
And when what I loved about it was full.
And I was like, so how do and what I what Ihated about it was full as well.
But it reminded me that I'm I wanted to stay ineducation.
Maybe not in the same space.
Because that space was was not nourishing.
(53:26):
But the work I wanted to do, and I was like,how can I create more of this space where I
feel fulfilled, whether that is finding anotherjob, whether that is finding another space in
my current role?
I mean, you know, in my current organization,And and I stuck with that.
(53:46):
I was like, no.
I'm still passionate about education.
I still want to coach.
I still like, those are the things that didn'tchange for me.
Mhmm.
And I knew that I was still meant to be aneducator.
So it reinforced my purpose but I just neededan environment that was gonna nurture that
purpose.
(54:06):
So it gave me clarity that it wasn't my lack ofdesire my lack of want.
It was the environment in which I was inspecifically that one environment that was
like, yeah.
I gotta get out of that.
But I wanna drop myself right into a differentdifferent space and and and live.
(54:28):
And also, Monique, when I found a deep newspace, I knew exactly what I wanted, and I
communicated that with my supervisor.
I was like, This is what I'm here to do, andthis is what I will not do.
And I was clear, like, I'm not gonna do this.
I'm not gonna do that.
I'm not gonna do this.
(54:48):
You know, some people are like, oh, you saidthat.
I'm like, absolutely.
I made a boundary about what I was going to doand what was absolutely going to be the thing
that was gonna hijack my moral imperative, andI was not willing to compromise on those.
And to this day, It worked.
Like, it didn't backfire.
It worked.
(55:09):
They honored it.
They, like, they're like, yeah.
Okay.
And they check-in with me.
Because I communicated that, they're just like,how's it going?
How are you feeling?
Is there anything like, it almost holds themaccountable to do what they say they wanna do?
Yeah.
I think boundaries are so powerful.
We think that they are what we're going to doto other people.
(55:31):
No.
And it's what we are going to do.
And as you said, what we're not going to dowhen certain things come up, we are not going
to behave in a particular way.
We're gonna, you know, have these actions.
I love the recommendation that you give topeople because one of the things that I said
about a fallacy earlier is when you feel thatyou are overwhelmed in a particular instance.
(55:54):
It's because you think
a
certain thing about it.
But you're telling them to put this practice,put down on paper, what is good, and what you
think isn't good about it.
And take stock literally.
Yeah.
Not figuratively in your mind based on youremotion, but to actually create an exercise out
(56:15):
of it.
Because the positive, perhaps in, like, in yourcase, it compels you to stay engaged.
Yeah.
But then when you look at the negative, youthink, oh my gosh.
If I just change my role for instance, then Idon't have to abandon the thing that I
literally live to do I can just find anenvironment where these features are not the
(56:38):
primary drivers or Right.
You know, perhaps some of the things on thatnegative of the list would be, addressed well
with the boundary if an individual is willingto have the courage and to It's, you know, it's
not fun to establish boundaries after the fact,but it can be done.
Right?
And that probably is a place where thatbeautiful community that we talked about can,
help you with the words and the strength and,you know, it's one thing to set a boundary.
(57:03):
It's another thing to hold one.
Right?
So there's a lot of work that, could be done inin that area.
So this conversation has been so rich.
And to your point, I think we could continue.
So we absolutely will perhaps, need to findways to continue to engage and check up on our
folks.
Right?
(57:23):
I'm curious.
I want people to respond to us and let us knowabout the exercise and whether they find any
space to breathe just by doing that.
I think it would be a wonderful thing.
For anyone who's feeling a little overwhelmedand looking from some encouragement or looking
for some encouragement in this area that we'reso passionate about.
Kendra, thank you so much for your engagementtoday.
(57:43):
This has been a wonderful and very empoweringconversation, and I'm so glad we did it.
Thank you so much.
I can't.
And I would hate leaders to feel that thatweight on top of just the weight of leadership.
Like, so so now compounded oppressive weight onyou based on your identity, based on your lived
experiences.
And then the role, it's not sustainable.
(00:23):
And I think that's why we have so many leadersof color and women sort of, step away because
the environment is not conducive to what theyneed.
Are you ready to unlock your full potential andachieve your personal professional and
financial goals.
Welcome to remarkably simple.
(00:43):
The podcast dedicated to helping you do justthat.
I'm Monique Fields, and I believe that with theright strategies anyone can achieve remarkable
results.
Whether you're a season leader or just startinga business.
This podcast is your guide to achieving yourgoals with simplicity and efficiency.
Let's on this journey together and make success
(01:04):
simple.
Alright, everybody.
It's Monique Fields here again, and I'm excitedto introduce you to another wonderful guest.
Today, we have with us doctor Kendra WashingtonBass.
She is the leader of the leader bubble, andshe'll get to tell us a little bit about that
(01:26):
amazing project in just a moment.
She is also the author of unwrapped the pursuitof justice for black women educators.
And she is a coleader of the Lucy leadershipproject.
Kendra, thank you so much for joining us on theshow today.
Thank you.
When you gave that introduction, I'm like,well, how many jobs do I have?
(01:51):
Exactly.
Exactly.
Many wonderful jobs.
Yeah.
Thank you for having me.
I appreciate it.
Yes.
It's so great.
So I'm excited to let everybody get to know alittle bit about who you are and what you do.
So I'd love for you to start out by justtelling us about what it is that you're doing
right now, and maybe if you'll just slide in alittle bit of what motivated you to start doing
(02:14):
this work.
Yeah.
So I'll start with, how I like to enter anyspace with grounding who I am.
I am the 6th great granddaughter of YellaSarah, who was an enslaved woman on the
Berkeley Plantation in Richmond, Virginia.
She still is there today.
(02:34):
The Berkeley Plantation is still there.
It's a museum and garden for people to takepictures, but my ancestors are on that hallowed
ground.
And I come from her.
I come from a woman who was resilient I comefrom a woman who in insurmountable challenges
(02:55):
was able to continue to build a legacy in whichI'm derived.
And why I am here today is because of thatlegacy that is in my veins.
It's part of my DNA.
It's who my mother is is who my grandmotherwas, is who my great grandmother was.
So, I start there and honor her in the space.
(03:19):
Thinking about leadership, and what shaped mewas was the strong resilience perseverance of
the women in my life who were extreme examplesfor me of leadership while people we'll take a
look at sort of nationally known leaders.
I did not have to look far.
(03:42):
Within my Harlem apartment, see how the womenin my family took care of everything.
They were the decision makers.
They were the holders of money.
They were, they sacrifice.
They teeter tottered on certain priorities.
(04:03):
They exemplified what leaders do.
And at the same time, they were humble, bold,vulnerable, and knew that they were part of
something larger than who they were.
(04:25):
So that that's what brings me to the work.
I'm much more appreciative of that as I startedto go through my own journey and understanding
how I came to be.
And and that's where, you know, the book ofunwrapped the pursuit of justice for women
educators comes into play because I had toreally understand me and go through my origin
(04:48):
story in order to understand how I led as aprinciple how I even became an educator.
That story is in there as well as what I do nowto help support leaders, particularly women
leaders in the work.
And I think that has helped ground me in graceand space that led to leader bubble, that that
(05:15):
idea of giving people time to think givingpeople time to wrestle with decisions so that
they make the best ones and the best interestsfor students.
So that's a little bit about me.
I just kind of a little play on unwrapping alittle bit about who I am.
(05:35):
Yeah.
I think, you said, as you said, it's a little,but it's also a lot.
And I I I love how you just succinctly sharedthat you're so well resourced that a part of it
is your actual origin.
Mhmm.
And that's sort of undergirding that you havebecause of the history and, you know, the
(05:59):
heritage that you carry and that you have,being aware of that owned that connection and
this, maybe there's a better word, butresponsibility to carry, right, in the same way
that the women before you.
But I love how you also share that a part of itis the experience that you had in, you know,
(06:22):
discovering who you were as a leader.
Mhmm.
And, it sounds like you have been on a journeythat brings you now to a place where you want
to help others Fields, normalize, and be theirstrongest and most well resourced Fields.
Mhmm.
I think this idea of the bubble, you know, wehear it talked about as a it's like a retreat,
(06:47):
but it almost sounds like you're creating aspace that's not intended to be inside of
permanently for section, but a place where youdraw from.
Correct.
You know, the resource that you need so thatyou're able to really accomplish what it is
that you do desire in the world.
Yeah.
And, I would love for you to just describe forus or share with us a little bit about, what it
(07:08):
is that you help leaders do as they are,spending time in this space.
Yeah.
Well, I think I take it from my own experienceand understanding, the structure of schooling,
the structure of education.
And I I'm specifically talking about a a aneducational leader.
(07:31):
And I think about my own upbringing intraditional principleship in my my journey
there.
You know, you I go you go to principal schooland you learn all of these things, and many of
them are very technical.
(07:54):
But the true work of leadership is adaptive.
The true work of leadership requires adifferent level of understanding requires also
more time for transformation to occur, yetwe're in systems where the sense of urgency
drives decisions made so quickly without muchtime to really be able to understand what the
(08:19):
problem is to uncover what could be some of thedifferent strategies that you can use.
And I understand the urgency.
We're talking about you know, human beings thatare in our care, stoop, and communities that
are leaning on education systems to helpimprove the world.
(08:42):
However, when we go with that structure andthat flow of everything is on fire and
everything is an urgency.
We get the results that we get, which iscontinued disparities, continued, lack of
academic progress specifically for minoritycommunities and just burnt out human beings who
(09:05):
are just on this path of just doing, doing,doing, doing.
So the thought bubble or the leader bubble wasmoments and times in my career where I was
afforded the opportunity to do so, and itwasn't because I was given a coach by the
district to do that.
(09:26):
It was because there were individuals whoinformally became my mentors and coaches who
stopped me and said pause.
And even though I was, like, in the state of Ican't I don't wanna pause.
They, like, physically, in some cases, like,stop.
(09:48):
Breathe.
Before you move to make this decision, let'sjust talk about why you wanna do it.
What is circling your mind?
Do you have enough information?
They they gave me that time Right?
(10:09):
And that's when I saw the most clarity.
That's when I was the most sure.
That was when I was the most successful.
So I started leader bubble initially thinkingabout turnkey that lesson, that learning, into
some purposeful coaching opportunities,purposeful workshop opt, purposeful pausing.
(10:37):
As we were talking in the preparation for this,you said, oh, you're an external processor.
Yes.
I will talk, talk, talk, and I will say, pleasedo not take what I initially say at the
beginning of the conversation as what I believeat this moment.
I am processing out loud for you.
I am going through, you know, this cognitiveexercise to hear myself.
(11:03):
So I have created for myself the thoughtprocess.
Like, I'm intentionally doing that out loud.
And then when I get to the period, right, whenI get to that final sentence with the period at
the end, that probably where the decision willbe made, but it wasn't when I first started
talking.
(11:24):
So the leader bubble of the thought bubble ideais giving people that space.
Now this is grounded not only in my ownexperience, but in you know, the the research
of social psychology around the way people makedecisions.
Mhmm.
That is people make decisions emotionallyfirst, rationally second.
(11:49):
They have been Nobel, Laureates, doctorates inpsychology who have, you know, said, look, you
know, you and Mick Noggle will hijack youfirst.
Right?
You respond in that way.
So give people time to process emotionally.
Exactly.
So that when they have to make the decision,they've processed or they've had the the
(12:13):
emotional time to sort of let things sink in,let things sort of wash over, do all of that.
That's the same for school leaders.
And so that that's what my intention is.
I I hope that every conversation that I leaveis enriching because I've given space.
(12:34):
To those individuals and created some habitsthat they can use going forward.
To build that into the way that they lead.
I think what's so beautiful about what youdescribe is as we both know, I was a school
lead for a total of 9 years Mhmm.
(12:54):
Out of the 24 that I served, 4 as an assistantprincipal, and 5 as a principal.
And I would say that this is one of thesticking points for me that there was not a
space.
And we we also talked in the prep conversationabout some of the work that I did that ended up
bringing me to the area of coaching leaders.
(13:17):
In the first place was that I was on a pathwhere I was seeking that it wasn't that I
didn't have a performance coach or
Nice.
You know, this that or the other formal supportBut the thing that I absolutely was missing was
this ability that we're talking about rightnow, that there was a space that was safe and
even expected for me to show up as a humanbeing and do the processing that I needed to do
(13:41):
in order to remain capable to make thosesometimes very tough decisions that led to the
effective results that we really needed tohave.
And I think this, is just such a beautiful andempowering effort to normalize this sort of
space, but more importantly, like really strongcoaches do, just hold the space.
(14:02):
Invite people into the space and create that,that environment that I think really is very
empowering for people.
It
brings up another question for me because Iknow that you've had many years of experience
and you spoke about how when you were in yourearly years, a leader, you had some people pull
you aside and say, look, stop.
(14:25):
My mind flooded then with memories of towardthe end of my service when someone did that to
me.
They literally arrested me.
Not literally.
Yes.
But almost physically made me sit downs stop,breathe, and drink water.
Like, no criticism.
We're not thinking about any criticism rightnow.
We're not doing any of that.
We are taking a moment.
(14:45):
And forced me a bottle of water.
Yeah.
And that just brings up to my to my mind.
I know that you're working with people and,that education leaders and everyone in
education is a leader to some degree, even theteacher in the classroom, right?
But many people are in the throes of it.
And daily dealing with the challenges and thecharge that they've been given, the goals that
(15:07):
they're trying to accomplish.
And I wonder what are some of the challengesthat you see people facing as it relates to
having an appropriate space to process what'sgoing on And how are you seeing that affecting?
You talked a little bit about we're on ahamster wheel where we want to achieve things,
but we're really not getting it done.
(15:28):
So I just want you to talk a little more about,you know, what are you seeing that people could
really benefit from having the space that youdescribe that you're creating in the leader
bubble?
So there are just competing priorities that arecoming forward.
And those competing priorities are coming frommultiple places.
(15:53):
So for example, as a school leader, a teacherin the classroom, even a student, there
are
mandates or policies that are federal, thenthere are the state ones, then there are the
district ones, Then there are the school ones,then there are classroom ones, and here is a
(16:17):
student in the classroom.
So I'm a take the student perspective, gettingall of that.
And it gets translated by multiple people.
So it's filtered to multiple people withoutreally clear expectations for what it is
actually we're intending to do.
So people feel the pressure to do somethingwith lack of clarity, There's sometimes a lack
(16:40):
of understanding about what it really takes toteach in 2024.
Mhmm.
And then there are so many other factors thatschools are contending with that creates also
an additional confusion.
Is it the school's role to do that thing inthis community, for this group of kids, in this
(17:06):
place, I mean, I think when we looked at whathappened in 2020 during the the the school sort
of suspension of the actual physical place ofschool and, and the impact it had on teachers
and the impact it had on communities, we sawhow much school plays a role in the economy.
(17:34):
Right?
Like, people weren't upset Some people wereupset that kids were not in school.
They were upset they were in school becausepeople had to go to work.
Right.
Right.
I mean, just it's so so it's like, get thosekids back in school because I gotta go to work.
Not let's have the kids go back to school.
Because we want them to learn, well, they stillwere learning, like, schools maybe physically
(17:58):
close, but the idea of education didn't.
Mhmm.
But even just the idea of what school isintended to do is not clear.
And what has happened is that it becomes thecatch all for everything that happens in
society.
So schools are inspected to not only educateFields, they expect it to, create sort of
(18:23):
morals and values for how kids should followThey're expected to attend to students mental
well-being.
They're expected to attend to students physicalwell-being.
Like, It's a school system that is so large interms of what is expected to do, and it changes
(18:43):
every single day.
And schools are caught in the middle of that.
Individuals are caught in the middle of that.
And then there's a level of expectation right,around academics.
I say all that to say is now I'm a leadertrying to figure out what I'm going to do.
I'm using my best learn advice, best academic,sort of practices.
(19:13):
I'm using the right pedagogy.
So I think and then once I get my feet maybestudy on the ground.
Something shifts.
Okay.
We're changing that math curriculum.
Okay.
We're changing the language arts.
No.
You did this type of literacy before that'sbad.
We're now gonna do this one.
(19:34):
And you have 60 days to get everyone sort oframped up, and we're gonna go full, you know,
district wide implementation in 90 days.
Oh, and by the way, you have to hire newteachers.
You have to train them.
You you oh, your building is about to have arenovation.
You gotta move that.
(19:54):
Like, All of that happens.
When do you have time?
To even be arrested.
Like you said, to sit down and even think whenso many people and things are coming at you.
And yet, Monique, it is doable.
(20:18):
It is.
It does require courage.
It does require some Commitment to controllingthe situation.
To be able to push back a bit on people andsay, stop.
(20:41):
I'm going to need, like, you have to you haveto tell people what you want and need.
I'm gonna need 2 to 3 days to understand this.
Like, you can ask, but people don't even thinkthat they can.
A lot of it has to do with experiences, right,but the relationships that happen within school
districts or within education agencies withthis hierarchy has been created that, you know,
(21:07):
can can harm relationships and harm whatsupport could look like.
So people tend to hide.
They're scared.
They're they're, you know, the spaces are notmeant to to help with vulnerability.
And yet you just need 1 or 2 courageous peopleto go, stop.
Stop.
I'm I'm gonna need some time.
(21:27):
And I'm gonna need an opportunity to unpackwhat is happening.
And if they can't do that, then people like meand you can help do that to give that space and
time.
So that's that's the challenge And yet, if youwanna be a successful leader, it does also
(21:51):
require you to feed your own soul and to takecontrol of your own professional learning and
well-being so that you can show up to be thebest leader in the middle of all this.
Listen.
Leadership is hard.
The most the most lauded the most admiredleaders, they're bad, have been in a pickle.
(22:20):
In their lives.
That's why they're leaders.
That's why they show, and it's dangerous.
We know that some of our leaders have made theultimate sacrifice when they've, you know, gone
first, when they've spoken up, when they've,led a movement And so it is a scary thing to do
(22:43):
is to be a leader, and yet we need leaders.
We need them.
And so if you're in that space, the challengesare part of the that is part of the job.
So how are you going to stay healthy?
Who are you surrounding yourself with?
How are you gonna ask for what you and need inthose spaces in order to be the leader that you
(23:07):
need to be.
So, I heard several things that really resonatewith me out of you know, what you said, I'll
try to hang on to all of them.
But one of the first things that comes to mindis the importance of I don't think we need to
be taught as as much as we need to be reminded,and we sometimes need support to normalize.
(23:28):
Even if we are not speaking the words, I need aminute.
We think it.
Yeah.
But what, like you said, what some what you andI are able to do is help people talk through
that and find the words that they're notaccustomed to using.
So that they can develop that skill and thatpractice and strengthen their ability, to be
(23:50):
able to create that space where it's necessary.
1 of one leader that I admire that I workedwith in the past, she did exactly that.
And I didn't know how to broker that for myselfwhen I became the lead at my school, but
thinking back, one of the things that Iremember her doing in some of the very tough
moments Sometimes it would be on a telephonecall, sometimes it would be in an email, but
(24:14):
she had this particular language, and I quote,in order to proceed.
I need, and she would list.
That doesn't mean that it would always behonored, but she had absolutely developed the
agency to say I'm here to do this job.
I'm here for it.
And I'm gonna need these things.
And it wasn't a princess list, right?
(24:35):
It was it's space, it's time, it's resources,it's whatever it is that's gonna equip me to
take on this challenge.
I agree with you 100%.
That the challenges are there.
They are to be expected.
And to your point, like, when you're inleadership, you don't expect it to be a cake
walk, so to speak.
You know that you have signed up to do thetough work.
The other thing I was gonna share is that in myown experience, this is exactly what I sought.
(25:00):
And it's for support were in place, but theywere not necessarily environments where I felt
or even saw demonstrated with others' examplesthat it was safe to be vulnerable.
Right.
And so I needed to find or create space formyself to have the support that I needed.
(25:29):
So I love that you are advancing this thisapproach to ensure that our leaders and servant
leaders are well equipped.
And, to the last point that you said aboutnurturing their soul, Right.
I started to have this epiphany that, I waslosing my personal resource that I was running
(25:59):
out of energy to continue Mhmm.
Showing up that I was not an endless well ofability to continue to show up in the way that
I expected myself to and that others did.
So this point that you make about feeding yoursoul.
That is so important, and I've been to so manyleader meetings where the statement is made.
(26:19):
Okay.
Make sure you take care of yourself.
But there really aren't structures for that.
Right.
And I think I don't mean to say that it'scomplicated because I think it is simple, but
there is work that you must do in order tomaintain your own well-being while you are
pulled, as you said, with so many completingpriorities.
(26:41):
To, take care of the needs of others.
So I think this is so, it's like, it's heavy.
But it's also simultaneously very excitingbecause I think it's exactly what education
Fields, and I know that you're as passionate asI am while I am not actively serving in
schools.
Yeah.
I haven't given up.
It's a little bit like I want to undergird thepeople who are on the ground and serve in a way
(27:06):
that I know the systems are not Eithercurrently doing or perhaps able to because as
you said, there's histories and environmentsand hierarchies that have been set up.
And, you know, if somebody's gonna go beleading the movement to change all of that, I I
pray I praise them for that work, but it's justnot the the mission that I connect with.
I wanna support the individuals.
(27:28):
So I love that you are, helping people do this.
And then I wonder, what kind of challenges orsetbacks do you see people experience as they
are starting to practice this this function oftaking time, creating space, having
partnerships with people like yourself who can,help them practice this this processing.
(27:55):
What are some of the things that you see thatare getting in the way of people and How do you
advise that they maintain the space once theystart to create it?
Yeah.
So one of the most interesting things, thatcome out of some of the work I do in Lucy
Leadership Project, because that's specificallyaround women.
(28:16):
And that's an example I would give, which is,We do workshops around well-being specifically
for women and boundary setting.
Mhmm.
So I'll I'll talk a little bit about sort ofwhat we see with women in in general and then
how this also sort of spills over intoleadership in general.
(28:38):
This is about breaking a cycle ofsocialization.
Mhmm.
So so when people begin to practice this, thisopt this this time, this space.
What could happen is pressures can build ordoubt can creep in and they can go right back
(28:58):
to what was comfortable even though thatcomfort was steeped in discomfort.
Right?
And I know it sounds weird to say, but it'slike, yo, I got comfortable being
Yeah.
Miserable.
Visible and oppressed was at least I knew whatit was.
Now this is new territory, and I'm controllingit.
(29:19):
The person that I can blame is myself now.
Whereas before, I can blame somebody else.
So the the scariness of having that type ofcontrol, while there is liberation and freedom
in it, This airiness of, oh, this all falls onme now can have a person sort of revert back to
(29:43):
sort of old habits.
So that's and and for women, that's what itcomes to play.
The second piece is the environment around ithas not caught up to your newfound insight.
And so peoples begin to question why you aremaking these moves, and then you can tend to
think Well, they think I'm selfish, and I don'twanna be seen as selfish.
(30:08):
So I'm gonna be selfless and go back to justyou know, being everything for everyone versus
taking care of myself.
So even though you can get to, like, you know,put the math on first before helping anyone
else, and they tell you that in a plane.
When you do it in real life, you can tend tothink of it as a selfish act versus truly the
(30:30):
nature of I have to be well in order to doreally good things and service to the people
Mhmm.
That is under my care.
So that's that's part of sort of theconditioning that happens.
And then in leadership in general, again, it'sthat urgency when you When you are looking at
your data, when you're looking at communityfeedback and hearing, like, things are not
(30:52):
moving fast enough, and you have the audacityto slow yourself up to give yourself some time
to that's that's not leadership like.
And therefore, people will tend to revert tothat, revert back to those habits that are
counterintuitive yet the expectation and normcircling around, say, you just have to be in
(31:19):
constant move.
If you're you're not a leader, if you're notdoing something.
Right?
It I think a lot of it has to do with sort of,capitalistic societal norms about what
productivity looks like.
Mhmm.
What success looks like is being busy andchecking off boxes.
(31:44):
Yet in education, if we really looked at whatsuccess looks like and we look at our data of
how kids are performing in this country, It'snot so.
So what do you do?
Work more.
Do more.
Keep moving.
No, you don't have time to think.
And no time to give yourself some rest.
(32:07):
I I see there is a you know, there is somemovement, at least on the student's side,
especially after COVID, to pay more attentionto social emotional needs of kids.
Mhmm.
Right?
So they're they're the brain breaks thatchildren are being incorporated in the
(32:29):
classroom or even restorative practices asstudents are sort of wrestling with you know,
decisions they've made, in the day, you know,how to sort of regulate emotions and stuff like
that.
They're like, okay.
This is This is really important for kids.
And still there's this fight about how muchtime we give to kids to do those things versus
(32:51):
the academic priorities, and yet we don't dothat for the adults.
So it's just it's not reaching there.
And, again, when you have someone, I would sayI was I I was I went through that transfer
transformation for myself.
And I was just like, you know, I'm not doingthat.
(33:14):
I'm I'm I'm not gonna take the work home overthe weekend and do that thing.
At 5 o'clock, I'm stopping.
Like, I can I can't give you my best thinkingif I'm spent?
So why am I gonna keep why am I gonna get tonegative?
And it's 7 o'clock, 8 o'clock, and a laptop.
(33:36):
So I mean, I I was the person who came homefrom work to do work.
And I hustled in that way thinking that wasgoing to be looked at at favorably.
And and quite frankly, it was until I couldn'tgive anymore until it spilled over into my
(33:59):
personal life until until I burnt out.
And I needed to do something different.
And it really started with just a mindset.
Like, why am I doing this?
Who am I doing this for?
Am I being my best when I do this?
Like, I had to ask a series of questions.
(34:21):
And the other thing, Monique, is I did have asupport group of people who told me the truth
even when it hurt.
Not those who I was like, no.
You're fine.
It's like, like, you're off.
(34:41):
You have killed her.
Oh, why are you doing that?
Like, just my husband was 1, you know, familymembers, good good friends and mentor and I say
good because these are the people who who will,like, when you make that change, Kent, I'm a be
right there to support you.
When that shift happens.
And I needed them when I made the decision tonot do and to break that habit of working to
(35:09):
the point of exhaustion, to the point ofsickness.
I mean, we have leaders who are dying on thejob.
Who are
Some of them coming near death and going back.
And going back to the environments and goinggood gracious.
How is that good for any what And what modelare we providing for those who want to jump
(35:30):
into this arena?
Like I
think we're providing a model a convincingmodel that it's not worthwhile.
I think we are we are experiencing the shortagethat means people have seen too clearly how
taxing the work is, but one thing that came tomy a couple of things came to mind while you
were sharing this experience that I connectdirectly with, and I'll just maybe work
(35:55):
backwards.
But I know exactly what you describe about theburnout.
It is the surprise.
Right?
Like, you have not even taken a moment toassess the fact that your energy is running
low.
And it's not like, I mean, I can remember atime when I just stopped going to get my nails
done and have a massage.
It did not help.
Right.
And I know that there are individuals as youdescribe who are facing significant health
(36:21):
challenges because they are losing the abilityto maintain their well-being.
It's more than just taking time to rest or
Right.
You know, getting a full night's sleep, butactually having and maintaining routines that
let you really nourish your body in a way thatkeeps you fit and strong, which you need to be
to do the work that we do.
In schools, but I think something else that youspoke about that's so important is the idea of
(36:46):
community.
And not just people around you and colleagues,but to your point, those good people, so to
speak, and I think everybody Fields to havethat group of individuals who are going to see
the work that you're doing be there with you nomatter what, but also having people who are in
(37:07):
your community that are, they're going to belooking at What are you actually practicing and
ensuring that you keep up the practices thatkeep you doing your best?
Yeah.
I think that one of the You know, I don't Idon't know where it came from, but one of the
things that I am most grateful for is that whenI was in those 9 years of school leadership,
(37:31):
some something motivated me to seek what Ididn't find around me.
And some of the best resources that I am stillgrateful for.
I learned because I placed myself incommunities that were teaching the tools that I
(37:53):
needed for my own well-being and to supportthose around me.
So I think that this idea that leaders, notwait for the system or structure to provide
what their intuition is telling them that theyneed.
I think this is so important because I've seenpeople go with the flow and just accept what
(38:14):
is.
And I think that we have our intuition and allof our inner voice and whichever way that we
say it for a reason, and it's so important.
I do notice that sometimes as you said, thereis quite a lot of attention given now to
student well-being emotional health, emotionalwell-being, psychological well-being.
(38:35):
You pointed out the growth that lots of placesare trying to do to implement restored
practices, I think all of those things are sopowerful.
And I think it's appropriate that it the focushas started with the students, right?
But I don't think that the educators and theleaders of education need to wait to practice
those things themselves.
It will be beautiful when the systems embracethese ideas and, find structures and ways to be
(39:00):
able to, implement these practices.
But the way I see it is many of us have beenset up with a passion and a drive for children
teaching and learning.
And For me, it's not to be left up to thesystem that I work for or the agency that I'm a
part of to ensure that I maintain this energy,this passion, this drive, and the ability to
(39:26):
set sustain for as long as I would like.
My ability to contribute.
And I think this is where the individual agencyof the educators is so important because the
work that needs to be done is not complicated.
It's very simple.
I think the things that you teach people, Idon't know if you would agree that they're very
(39:46):
simple things that need to be done.
The part that's challenging is being consistentabout implementing those practices, and this is
what that community will do.
Because when you are plugged into a communitythat understands what it is that you need to
sustain your passion for 30 or more years.
Right.
You're going to have those regular returns tobut wait, what goal did you identify?
(40:11):
What results are you actually seeing?
And how are you staying on track?
That when you feel like reverting as you talkedabout to what's comfortable, even though it's
miserable, This is the strength of beingplugged into the kind of community that is not
only thinking about whatever is the performancestandard.
They're thinking about your ability to be wellwhile you are trying to accomplish the
(40:32):
impossible.
Yeah.
And that and and, again, I guess the theleadership pathway and leadership training does
not give attention to that.
And therefore, we are operating under sort ofvery antiquated ways in which leadership what
leadership looks like sounds like and feelslike.
And I I just know as as a woman leader, as ablack woman leader culturally you know,
(40:59):
community is a value.
Collectivism is a way of life culturally forme.
Right?
It's in my my DNA, as I said earlier.
And yet, I'm I'm it Fields like I'm in spaceswhere there is, like, We say collaboration, but
there is this competition to be the 1.
(41:21):
Right?
This is idea.
There's there's some cognitive dissonance aboutthe way leadership is and not.
And so being a just being aware of that.
So that's another part of the leader bubblepiece.
It's just this awareness of how you're situatedin your particular role and the positionality
(41:43):
you have, being aware of what is surroundingyou so that you can now navigate it in a way
that keeps you as safe as possible andproductive and also keeps you grounded in who
you are.
And I think that's the other piece that getslost.
I lost myself in leadership.
(42:05):
I was attempting to be like something whateverthis idea of Mhmm.
What it was, the way I looked, the way I dress,sometimes the way I sound, I compromised a lot
of who I was to fit in, and that also weigheddown on my well-being.
There's only so much you can mask who you are.
(42:26):
And when you get to that point, you becomefrustrated.
I became frustrated.
I'll talk about me specifically.
I became frustrated.
I became unrecognizable to myself, to myfamily, to people who really, really knew me,
to those who didn't know me, they were justlike, she's you fit right in.
And I was just like, oh, I'm it's it soundedlike a compliment.
(42:50):
And then in my head, I was like, that doesn'tsound right.
Versus you are who you are in this environment.
And I butt up against that so much internally.
I was having this fight with myself.
And, yeah, I got to a point where I was like, Ican't do this.
Anymore.
I can't.
And I would hate leaders to feel that thatweight on top of just the weight of leadership.
(43:18):
Like, so so now compounded oppressive weight onyou based on your identity, based on your lived
experiences.
And then the role, it's not sustainable.
And I think that's why we have so many leadersof color and women sort of, step away because
(43:41):
the environment is not conducive to what theyneed.
And so that's another piece.
It's just being able to center a leader and go.
So who who are you?
What do you wanna do?
Like, go back to that purpose.
What's your purpose and passion?
How that you asked a question, Kendra.
How did you get here?
(44:01):
I wanna know, how did you get how did youarrive here?
What is your story?
What do you wanna do moving forward?
What have you been doing that is not getting isnot helping you?
Like, and why do you continue to do that?
What's behind that?
Mhmm.
And what would it look like if you just wereyou?
(44:26):
Like, and what are you scared of?
Like, I I really want I want people to reallyuncover those pieces about themselves.
Now again, principal school leadershipprograms, maybe do, like, leadership styles.
They may do something.
They don't go deep in that.
They don't offer someone, a coach to reallycoach who they are to and how they lead?
(44:52):
Because those two things are not mutuallyexclusive.
No.
I think or yes.
I think this is what I was speaking to earlierabout the leader has to recognize it in this
current environment.
If they wanna make an impact, which is exactlywhat I got into it for, I left the classroom
because I realized that outside of theclassroom, I had an opportunity to do what I
(45:15):
was doing for the children I taught directly.
But on a larger scale.
It was not the power.
It was the influence.
How do you work with others to ensure that morechildren have an impact?
But what I did not realize is that I needed toprepare for myself that there was not going to
(45:36):
be attention to who am I, what do I desire asyou're speaking about.
Yeah.
What is my what drives me.
And I think that it is back to what what weboth identify with this sense that you can lose
yourself in the work the systems are not set upto create space for you, and I think it is an
(45:56):
automatic assumption that is very common.
That there cannot be space for you, and it is afallacy.
Yeah.
I think that, in my own experience, Justworking with a coach, I have been able to poke
so many holes in ideas that I long held Yeah.
Accepted and swallowed because I did not seeanother option.
(46:18):
And, one of my favorite questions to ask whenan individual presents to me something that
sounds like a definite idea is okay, but whatelse could be true?
Yeah.
And there may be some reasons why we don'twanna entertain the question.
But, okay, say what those are, and then tell mewhat else could be true.
There is possibility that you find.
And that's not to say that the school or thesystem is gonna bend to your way.
(46:42):
The world doesn't do that for any of us, but Ithink there is space for better performance.
Right?
You know, we've heard this this statement thatoriginal is always better than a copy.
I don't think we get anybody's best creativeproduct when we ask them to be something that
they are not.
And if the environment that an individual isworking in is not one that wants to help them
(47:07):
flourish and thrive as the best individualleader that they can be, then I would just want
to make sure that every leader knew that it isabsolutely worth it to you, because you will
get closer to what it is that is driving you.
That will also satisfy what they're looking forwhen you find the support that helps you figure
out how to be who you are and give the bestgifts that you have through your style and your
(47:35):
personal flair and whatever those pieces are.
So I think this is a very empowering topic andso important.
For individuals to just be aware of what'spossible.
Yep.
And I wonder since we could probably talk awhole history in this area, where people would
(47:56):
follow you And we've been talking about theleader bubble and Lucy leadership project, but
where would you direct people to come and find,Kindra Washington Mass and learn more about the
work that you do to support leaders.
Yes.
Thank you for asking that.
And, yeah, so you can find me in two places.
One is at leaderbubble.com.
(48:17):
So that is where you will see all the servicesthat, I provide including coaching
conversations like this.
So you can find me there, but also on most ofsocial media platforms.
You can also find me atlucyleadershipproject.com, and that is the
space specifically for women educationalleaders.
(48:40):
I cofounded that particular, consultingorganization with Kelly Peaks Horner, and we
are a Cross racial facilitator group.
Part of our work is for us to model theconversations that women have across race.
And also to show what allyship coconspiratorship look like, in the space when we
(49:06):
talk about mentoring and supporting leaders,specifically women leaders.
For both platforms, you can find me onInstagram.
You can find me on TikTok.
As, chief encouragement officer on TikTok.
I
love it.
I'm really getting into TikTok.
But it's so fun, and everybody's over there.
Everyone's over there.
(49:27):
If they don't shut it down, I don't know.
But, you can find me on Instagram, LinkedIn,Kensho Washington Bass, just you know, type in
Kensho Washington BaaS.
But if you just Google me, I think I try tokeep myself you know, pretty clean on the
social media pages, but if you Google me, youcan find, you know, ways to connect with me.
(49:48):
And I look forward to continuing conversationslike this, Monique, I mean, it's timely.
It doesn't get talked about enough.
And I think as people are talking about it, Ijust wanna make a disclaimer.
Like, well-being in this space is just sort ofuncovering.
When you go deeper into well-being and you godeeper into mental well-being, that's for the
(50:13):
clinical psychologist to take
hold of.
I do not do any of that.
Right?
I know some folks who who can help in thatarea, but we're just talking about just taking
a pause.
And situating ourselves in the space ofleadership and why we do what we do and how we
can do it better.
So I appreciate being, available and,supporting the work because this, in the end,
(50:39):
Monique, this is all for students.
This is all of service to the young people thathave a that are betting on us to do right by
them so that they can be the best at who theyare.
Yes.
So, I love to end every chat that I have with,individuals on this show with one question for
(51:01):
you.
Yep.
And that is in some way, there is a commonalityto what we all need, whether we are Educator,
or, you know, leaders in other industries, oras we mentioned earlier, the leader of a
classroom, the leader of a family.
But as we think about, you know, people gettinglost in their work, you know, or perhaps when
(51:25):
people experience this feeling of overwhelm,that leads to burnout and ultimately the
opposite of what we dream, the opposite resultthat we are so passionate about achieving.
What is the one thing that you advise or wouldsuggest that an individual try that would just
(51:46):
help them create a little bit more space to beable to process like we've been discussing in
this conversation today.
What could they try?
Thinking about myself, what did I try?
This is gonna sound real weird, I guess, but, II wouldn't say I did meditation because I don't
(52:18):
this goes back to thinking.
I gave myself some time to to process.
One of the things that I did specifically is Ihad to, like, I had to, like, get away from it.
(52:40):
And I took out a sheet of paper and I wrotedown, and this is one thing I exercise I tell
people to do.
I wrote down, like, I split it in half.
It was like, on one side.
Like, why did I do why am I in this work?
What do I love, love, love about And on theother side, like, what's the thing that I just
(53:02):
can't stand?
Right?
What is what is keeping me from that?
And when what I loved about it was full.
And I was like, so how do and what I what Ihated about it was full as well.
But it reminded me that I'm I wanted to stay ineducation.
Maybe not in the same space.
Because that space was was not nourishing.
(53:26):
But the work I wanted to do, and I was like,how can I create more of this space where I
feel fulfilled, whether that is finding anotherjob, whether that is finding another space in
my current role?
I mean, you know, in my current organization,And and I stuck with that.
(53:46):
I was like, no.
I'm still passionate about education.
I still want to coach.
I still like, those are the things that didn'tchange for me.
Mhmm.
And I knew that I was still meant to be aneducator.
So it reinforced my purpose but I just neededan environment that was gonna nurture that
purpose.
(54:06):
So it gave me clarity that it wasn't my lack ofdesire my lack of want.
It was the environment in which I was inspecifically that one environment that was
like, yeah.
I gotta get out of that.
But I wanna drop myself right into a differentdifferent space and and and live.
(54:28):
And also, Monique, when I found a deep newspace, I knew exactly what I wanted, and I
communicated that with my supervisor.
I was like, This is what I'm here to do, andthis is what I will not do.
And I was clear, like, I'm not gonna do this.
I'm not gonna do that.
I'm not gonna do this.
(54:48):
You know, some people are like, oh, you saidthat.
I'm like, absolutely.
I made a boundary about what I was going to doand what was absolutely going to be the thing
that was gonna hijack my moral imperative, andI was not willing to compromise on those.
And to this day, It worked.
Like, it didn't backfire.
It worked.
(55:09):
They honored it.
They, like, they're like, yeah.
Okay.
And they check-in with me.
Because I communicated that, they're just like,how's it going?
How are you feeling?
Is there anything like, it almost holds themaccountable to do what they say they wanna do?
Yeah.
I think boundaries are so powerful.
We think that they are what we're going to doto other people.
(55:31):
No.
And it's what we are going to do.
And as you said, what we're not going to dowhen certain things come up, we are not going
to behave in a particular way.
We're gonna, you know, have these actions.
I love the recommendation that you give topeople because one of the things that I said
about a fallacy earlier is when you feel thatyou are overwhelmed in a particular instance.
(55:54):
It's because you think
a
certain thing about it.
But you're telling them to put this practice,put down on paper, what is good, and what you
think isn't good about it.
And take stock literally.
Yeah.
Not figuratively in your mind based on youremotion, but to actually create an exercise out
(56:15):
of it.
Because the positive, perhaps in, like, in yourcase, it compels you to stay engaged.
Yeah.
But then when you look at the negative, youthink, oh my gosh.
If I just change my role for instance, then Idon't have to abandon the thing that I
literally live to do I can just find anenvironment where these features are not the
(56:38):
primary drivers or Right.
You know, perhaps some of the things on thatnegative of the list would be, addressed well
with the boundary if an individual is willingto have the courage and to It's, you know, it's
not fun to establish boundaries after the fact,but it can be done.
Right?
And that probably is a place where thatbeautiful community that we talked about can,
help you with the words and the strength and,you know, it's one thing to set a boundary.
(57:03):
It's another thing to hold one.
Right?
So there's a lot of work that, could be done inin that area.
So this conversation has been so rich.
And to your point, I think we could continue.
So we absolutely will perhaps, need to findways to continue to engage and check up on our
folks.
Right?
(57:23):
I'm curious.
I want people to respond to us and let us knowabout the exercise and whether they find any
space to breathe just by doing that.
I think it would be a wonderful thing.
For anyone who's feeling a little overwhelmedand looking from some encouragement or looking
for some encouragement in this area that we'reso passionate about.
Kendra, thank you so much for your engagementtoday.
(57:43):
This has been a wonderful and very empoweringconversation, and I'm so glad we did it.
Thank you so much.
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