November 20, 2025 • 35 mins
In this episode of the Remote Work Life Podcast, I’m joined by Ben Davis, Co-Founder of Saxbury, a long-time specialist in serviced apartments, aparthotels, and flexible accommodation.
Ben has spent more than two decades working across corporate housing, relocation, and property advisory, and he’s one of the clearest voices I’ve met on how the accommodation landscape is shifting for businesses.
I ask Ben why finding the right place to live and work is still far harder than it should be, even for experienced travellers. Ben breaks down the real differences between serviced apartments, aparthotels, co-living, and short-term rentals, and explains why the “just book an Airbnb” approach often falls short when someone needs reliability, safety, decent Wi-Fi, and a proper work setup.
We also talk about what companies actually look for when booking long-stay accommodation, how professionals’ needs have changed post-COVID, and why landlords and agents are slowly adapting to a workforce that moves differently. Ben also touches on the growing demand for work-ready spaces and how developers are rethinking underused buildings to meet it.
If you’ve ever struggled to book accommodation that fits the way you or your team work, this conversation will make the whole landscape much clearer.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (00:00):
Hi everybody, it's Alex once again
from the Remote Work LifePodcast, and today I'm joined by
Ben Davis.
He's the co-founder of Saxbury,a pioneering consultancy
shaping the future ofresidential hospitality.
Now, Ben has spent more thantwo decades across service
departments, apart hotels,co-living spaces, and these are
(00:20):
sectors that have becomeessential for co-located and
remote professionals alike.
Founders, you know, consultantsseeking flexible, high-quality
places to live and work aroundthe world.
In this episode, we'll talkabout how the rise of remote
work is reshaping corporateaccommodation from what
professionals look for inflexible stays to how landlords,
(00:43):
agents, and other stakeholdersare adapting to meet the
evolving needs of an evolvingworkforce.
Ben, thank you very much forjoining me today.
Very welcome.
Thanks for the invitation.
Looking forward to this.
Yes, me too, me too.
So, yeah, Ben, I'd like to justkeep this conversation as I
(01:03):
mentioned around accommodation,all these different types of
accommodation that to be honestwith you, I I don't really know
that much about them.
When I started, as I mentionedbefore, on the conversation that
we had before, there are somany different sort of
connotations and so manydifferent people offering
different things.
I myself have had to stay inservice departments.
(01:25):
And me being the ignorant one,you know, obviously you will
think about Airbnb, but there'sso much, so much more to it than
just that.
So we're gonna be exploringthat today.
But first, could you just startby giving I know I gave you a
bit of an introduction, but tellme a bit about yourself and how
you got into this uh this areaof work.
So try and keep it short andsweet.
Ben Davis (01:45):
I I set up Saxbury uh after being self-employed for
about seven years, working as aproperty finder and for
primarily for corporate housingcompanies.
And that came about because I'dspent a number of years
understanding uh about thedemand side of temporary
(02:06):
accommodation.
So I worked for a globalcorporate booking agency many
years ago uh in sales.
So I built relationships withthe key bookers of temporary
accommodation.
So those companies that hadglobal mobility requirements,
employees that were travelingaround and needed to have those
employees working out theiroffice for extended periods,
(02:27):
maybe periods that would belonger, longer than it would be
comfortable to be in a hotel.
So my job at the time was toidentify who these businesses
were, uh, who the decisionmakers, travel bookers were, and
get on the phone to them andlet them know that there was
something more comfortable, acomfortable alternative and
maybe less costly to staying ina hotel.
(02:49):
And at the time it was verymuch a concept cell because this
was pre-Airbnb, and we were,you know, were effectively
offering uh business gradeaccommodation in in comfortable
flats for their employees andyou know, promoting that happy,
comfortable employees workharder and stay longer.
So it was very much a conceptcell.
And I spent a number of yearsworking within that sector, uh,
(03:11):
first as an agent and then goingto work for uh an operating
company, corporate housingcompany, and did some consulting
for a while for anothercorporate housing company,
primarily in sales, a bit ofsupply chain management.
Realised I could see that thesector was growing rapidly, as
in business take up and demandfor corporate housing was
(03:32):
strong.
I could see that the corporatehousing companies were looking
to grow not only their clientbase, but also their property
portfolio.
And many of these companiesdidn't really have dedicated
property acquisitions teams, sopeople to help expand their
footprint in line with theirdemand for the clients.
And similarly, you could seethat the estate agents, the real
(03:56):
estate sector, didn't reallyknow what corporate housing was.
They understood that maybe theycould rent a whole building to
uh a business, but they didn'treally know that there were
intermediaries out there thatwere leasing up buildings and
then offering them as servicedepartments to their clients for
short periods.
So recognizing a gap, if youlike, I wanted to try and fill
(04:21):
that knowledge gap, which isbuilding relationship which was
building relationships with uhreal estate owners, investors,
state agents, and thenconnecting them with corporate
housing companies that haddemand.
So really interpreting whattheir demand was, identifying
these blocks in key locationswhere I knew the demand would be
strong, uh, and then working topresent those to the operating
(04:44):
companies and negotiatedfavorable terms for both
parties.
So I had a bit of success withthat, did that for about seven
years.
Uh, and then um on a project, Imet uh I met a chap who worked
for another real estate agency.
Uh, and uh over quite a longperiod, we we worked out a
business plan to focus onbuilding uh a real estate
(05:07):
consultancy focused purelyaround service departments.
And I guess at the time therewasn't really anybody doing that
because the service departmentsand apart hotels are they come
within under the hotel useclass.
So they've always been you knowestablished and successful
hotel brokerages, the likes ofthe you know, the big agents
(05:28):
like Savals and Night Frank, etcetera, et cetera.
But that nobody really had beenspecializing on this that
seemed like an alternative or aniche, if you know it.
And so I felt that there wascertainly an opportunity there
uh to uh to present to theworld, to the investors, to the
operators, that there's somebodyand there's a team of people
(05:49):
that understand this sector withuh a real, I guess, niche
experience.
And so we set up SnackSpree toprovide that advice uh both to
developers, to operators, toinvestors, uh everybody in that
value chain uh and offer thosesolutions, brokerage,
development advisory in thatspace.
We've been doing that nowapproximately nine years, and uh
(06:10):
yeah, still here.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (06:12):
Yeah, and uh and I like I said, I I still
think there's there's still onmy on the side that I'm on, at
least, of the side, i.e., youknow, I'm I myself am a
consultant, and I've I've alsobeen in the the sort of on the
corporate side.
So I've also had situationswhere I've had to book
(06:34):
accommodation myself, or atleast somebody within the
corporate headquarters, HR, orwe didn't have a global mobility
team, had to book thataccommodation for me.
And their go-to is just like uhlike I said, Airbnb, let's just
look at Airbnb, or somethinglike what's the hotel chain
called?
Those little prem Premier In.
(06:54):
So pr things like Premier In.
So, but I've learned so muchjust by looking, just looking at
your LinkedIn profile, to behonest with you, and also
obviously looking at Saxburywebsite in terms of the variety
of accommodation that is is outthere, the kind of options that
are out there.
Ben Davis (07:11):
Yeah, absolutely.
Like I think if you're an inemployee or if you're uh PA, uh
travel department or something,you you've got to find
accommodation for your employee.
I guess it starts with um this,you know, there's the need, so
and so needs to be in a certainplace for a certain period.
It's about trying to find out,I guess, firstly, what what what
(07:32):
does the employee really want?
What are they gonna becomfortable with?
Are there budget requirementsas well?
If somebody's staying for, youknow, longer than three or four
days or a week or more, thenyes, an apartment would be
ideal.
It's probably it's probablygoing to be less expensive, it's
certainly going to be morecomfortable because people can
cook for themselves and eat whatthey want when they want rather
(07:54):
than being restricted aroundbreakfast.
And there's also you know,there's lots of other reasons
why business is businesses abovecorporate housing or service
departments.
It could be it could be a ladytraveling on on her own, not you
know, and and wanting to bemore self-sufficient rather than
having to dine in therestaurant, you know, and it's
it's just these things whenyou're a regular traveller, you
(08:16):
you probably want to do thingsmore on your own shift and the
different types ofaccommodation.
I mean, it's uh yeah, it mustbe very difficult for for
businesses to work out what'swhat because you'll look online,
you'll Google servicedepartments in Birmingham, for
example, uh, and you won't knowwho's an agent, you won't know
who's an operator, you won'tknow who owns their flats, who
(08:38):
rents them.
You might not care.
But actually, you what you careabout is you know, are they is
is is the flat real?
Is it clean, safe, and legal?
Uh is the operator going to beprofessional like a hotelier,
and uh, you know, are you gonnaget any uh blowback from the
employee when they when theycheck in?
Alex Wilson-Campbell (08:58):
Yeah, I think you put I mean we talked
about this as well last time wespoke, but yeah, you you you do
that's what I would care about,or at least if I was booking on
behalf of somebody else, I'dcare about the their comfort,
the facilities, you know, allthose different types of things.
And I just did an exercise acouple, you know, couple after
again after we've finishedspeaking, just to see, you know,
if I was trying to book a anapartment in, I don't know, in
(09:21):
centre of London, for example, Ijust did an exercise.
I thought, let me see how easyit is for me to do that.
And it it it really wasn'tbecause you obviously again
you've got Airbnb, but you'vethen you I as I said last time,
there's like you see thesedifferent websites and you can't
distinguish whether the websiteis an agent or is like some
sort of aggregator of of of sortof apartments or apart hotels,
(09:46):
and then you kind of go down abit of a rabbit hole.
Ben Davis (09:49):
So it's kind of like and I I couldn't see any sort of
necessarily any sort of isthere any regulator to sort of
like I don't know that helps youwith going in that direction of
which ones are the you know thethe the ones that uh worthwhile
staying at or it or there is acompany called the Association
(10:10):
of Service Department Providers.
It's been around for a longtime.
Um it's it's an associationthat uh professional service
department operators can seekthem out, uh join them, get
accredited.
So somebody will come visittheir properties and you know
give them a seal of approvalbased on you know a number of
(10:32):
different hallmarks and factorsthat business travelers demand,
safety, legality, all those kindof things.
And then they're part of thatgroup.
But again, it's very niche andit's difficult, you know.
And companies will then promotethat they're registered with
the ASAP, and then I guessthat's a hallmark of quality.
But I guess if you don't knowwhat ASAP is, then you don't
(10:55):
necessarily you don't know tolook for it.
So you know, the ASAP team, whoI know really well, with some
great people, they will promotethis to the nth degree.
But you know, I guess until umthe it becomes sort of somehow
enshrined in the law withrespect to property use classes
and you know what you what onemust do to operate service
(11:17):
accommodation, then it'll alwaysbe something that you're always
just trying to, you know,eagerly, but at the same time
have a huge amount of barriersto, you know, you mentioned
about you know how you findproperty and the different sorts
of property, and yeah, it'sreally, really difficult.
And a lot of the time when youfind service departments on a
website other than Airbnb, otherthan booking.com, you might not
(11:38):
even be able to actuallyreserve them for specific dates.
You might just have to make aninquiry and wait till they get
back to you.
And that's mainly borne out ofthe fact that you know, if
you're if you're an operator andyou've got a block of 20 flats
and the majority of your guestsstaying for 30, 60, 90 days,
these people might have anoption to extend.
So the last thing you want todo is pull the rug from beneath
(12:00):
them and sell dates in advancefor three nights or four nights.
So, you know, these short stayseffectively fill voids.
And so it depends on thestrategy.
You know, then conversely,you've got a lot of people, the
operational Airbnb, they'reactively targeting short stays
for higher rates, leisureguests, and they do the other
and they kind of sell the shortstays well in advance.
(12:21):
And if you want a long stay andcorporately want to stay for a
week or a month, then you know,you might have a hard job
actually getting into that flatbecause the availability
calendar's been repeated.
So, you know, so that's why Iguess it's it's best if you're
if you're a business travelleror yeah, if you're a repeat
regular apartment user, maybenot to use websites like Airbnb,
(12:44):
maybe to use specialist travelbooking companies, specialist
apartment booking companies,relocation companies, because
they tend to have an accountmanager, they'll do it for you.
You tell them what you need,assessment.
They say, okay, Alex, so and soneeds to be in Burnham for two
months within a matter of halfan hour.
They've sent them lists ofvetted options that are all
(13:05):
available and they all meet thebudget and the requirements.
And you know, companies likeSilverdoor Booking Agency,
they're pretty much one of thebiggest global booking agencies
they've got, you know, bigglobal supply chain.
Uh, and they'll they'll go andhandle your needs and uh you
know provide provide a goodservice with it as well and sort
of demystify the whole process.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (13:26):
That's what you want.
You want you don't want to haveI mean, I like I said, I spent
as an exercise, I just spentlike probably 30 minutes, and I
still didn't get to the pointwhere I was like, yep, that's
the one.
So I can only imagine that ifyou if you're if you've got you
know a corporate team or ifyou're again somebody like
myself, it's gonna be difficult.
But I I've noticed as well.
I mean, there's again, there'sso many different options.
(13:50):
We talk about up heart hotels,all these different kinds of
variations.
Have you uh uh Ben, have youseen the needs of professionals
and businesses change over overthe years?
I mean, even since I I meanI've noticed it, but I I I don't
necessarily know what it is, ifthat makes sense.
But I've noticed that there'sthere's more it's more in your
(14:11):
face a bit more in terms of yourability to go to a co-living
place or your ability to go to aservice department.
Is that something that is isyou notice as well?
I'm well I'm sure you have.
Ben Davis (14:22):
I mean, like what's in a name, I guess, like service
department.
What is a service department?
It's an apartment beingservice, but what does that
really mean?
You know, service department,the service department of sector
is a bit of a capsule for youknow corporate housing,
apartment hotels, and you know,in its purest form, a service
department generally would belike an operating company who
(14:46):
probably signs a lease on abuilding, uh, decorates it
beautifully, nice furniture, uh,provides cleaning once a week,
bundles in the bills, and thenmakes it available for periods
of weeks and months to corporateguests.
An apart hotel may be morerelatively new here in the UK,
though being actually quitepopular in places like Australia
(15:07):
uh and elsewhere in the euroand Asia for, I don't know,
maybe 20, 30 years, believe itor not.
And but an apartment hotel isessentially, you know, maybe 50,
100 units in a block.
So more hotel kind of volume ofunits, each unit being kind of
like a self-contained studio onebed or two bed flat, probably a
(15:30):
bit smaller than a regularhome, uh, still with that
service element, housekeepingbills included, normally with a
front desk.
So you kind of walk through it,has that sense of security that
when you walk through the doorand you you might see somebody,
uh, there might be a gym, itmight be a cafe or something,
(15:50):
and then you can rent theseflats for periods of a night or
maybe three months or fourmonths.
And so that's a more sort of Iguess sort of sanitized
corporate version of the servicedepartment, if you like.
Right.
And and led your guests willchoose that because they, you
know, everybody likes the ideaof an Airbnb, but sometimes the
(16:11):
reality falls short, like youknow, it looks beautiful
pictures, and then the realitythat you're in somebody's home
kind of you know doesn't workfor a lot of people.
Uh or you know, maybe maybethey're inexperienced travellers
and they just like the thisnotion of security where they go
in through the front door andthey go upstairs and then you
know they there's not a dooronto the street.
So apart hotels work for thatreason.
(16:32):
A lot of groups of you know,friends and leisure guests might
book it over the weekendbecause they can, you know,
they've got, you know, dare Isay with the party pad or
somewhere to get get readybefore they go out, you know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
They're fun.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (16:45):
So yeah.
Are they normally do theynormally have like communal
spaces in the part hotels aswell?
Because that that's somethingI'm noticing a lot.
People are sort of demandingmore, is sort of if they're
especially like you said thesegroups people get together, they
have one of these communalspaces.
Is that something that'sCameron?
Ben Davis (17:01):
It's always a challenge when you're a
developer because you knowyou're looking at you know
revenue or development costs ona price per square meter.
So if it's non-revenuegenerating space as a developer,
you've got to kind of askyourself, why is it why is it
there?
But you know, you you you tendto find you certainly find
communal spaces within co-livingdevelopments.
(17:22):
You know, co co-living isessentially residential rather
than hospitality, but there areelements of hospitality that are
creped crept into co-living andto make it a more interesting
rental product, you know,co-living in its purest form is
essentially you know, it's builtaround accommodation.
It's residential accommodationfor people staying, you know,
(17:44):
certainly three months, butprobably 12 months.
They probably have a little, Iguess nearest thing I could
describe it as if you think ofpurpose-built modern student
accommodation, but they'reavailable to non-students.
Uh maybe the design is slightlymore or less student-y.
Instead of having a commonroom, you're going to have maybe
(18:06):
a co-working room where theresidents can come down from
their probably tiny flat, butcome and enjoy some convenient.
And these communal facilitiesare active to value add on the
rent because you know, maybesomebody's paying an
all-inclusive rental upstairsthat might be proportionately
slightly higher than it would beif they were renting a room in
(18:27):
a share flat.
But actually, when you'vebundled in your bills and when
you've added a gym, a cinemaroom, you don't have to take
that gym membership.
Yeah.
It actually kind of makessense.
The communal aspects areeffectively the hook for
upstairs.
But in an apartment space,normally the communal spaces
(18:47):
would be, you know, maybe moreminimal, again, because of
development costs, and it'sprobably reserved to be things
like co-working or maybe even acoffee shop.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (18:57):
Got it.
You've actually answered mynext question, actually, quite
quite a lot, which is goodbecause uh obviously when you're
booking, you obviously expectgood Wi-Fi, but apart from that,
you're gonna have a cinema.
Well, I wouldn't mind a cinemaroom, actually, but that that'd
be more in a car a co-livingspace, as you're saying.
What other sort of defaultfacilities should uh especially
(19:19):
as a corporate, would you wouldwould you sort of expect?
Because I know I'd want a deskat least.
Ben Davis (19:26):
Well, uh yeah, like I think let's just say most of
the corporate focused servicedepartment companies generally
post-COVID, post-lockdown,really, they they they had to
find ways of cramming desks inthe flats because actually a lot
of people that were bookingthem were either not in an
office or they were thinking, ormaybe they were you know
(19:48):
self-employed people.
And I thought, but you knowwhat, rather than booking a
hotel and get a co-workingspace, I need to be in this town
or this city for a week or amonth visiting clients.
I'm just gonna book a servicedepartment, but I need this to
be my office as well.
So a lot of these companieswere making sure that they can
put a desk in there.
I guess you know, some werejust uh I don't know, saying,
(20:10):
Oh, well, you can work at thedining table, but actually
that's not really verycomfortable when you're so yeah,
no a lot of the good corporatehousing companies I know uh
would would make sure that theyhave a desk, work, work, work
table in there, uh work workchair, sorry.
Obviously, good good strongWi-Fi uh or the ability to
upgrade that Wi-Fi to somethingslightly stronger for a cost.
(20:32):
But you know what?
Apart from that, there aren'treally many work or specialist
work provisions put into theplan.
Um you know, they have a coffeemachine, but you kind of expect
that anyway, you know, anespresso or something.
There are there is yeah, therewas one company I came across
that actually was very focusingtheir service departments very
(20:52):
much on the worker where theywould uniquely they would put a
desk in there and they would putlike dual screens in there, so
you could just go and put it upin company in London, can't
quite remember the name now.
Uh and yeah, they're calledRemote Lease.
Uh and they kind of growthroughout London, good company.
But yeah, so it's maybe ifyou're a tech person, you don't
(21:13):
want to have to take all thatparaphernalia with you to you.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (21:15):
Yeah, exactly.
But I I guess then, because youtalked about your your
relationship, your your uhintermediary landlords,
investors, etc.
Are they sort of open andadapting to this new wave of
professionals?
Because I can only imagine ifsomebody's if there's a landlord
looking to rent their premises,they're thinking, I just want a
(21:38):
tenant in there, I want atenant, but are are they sort of
open now to sort of differenttypes of tenant?
And are agents the same?
Ben Davis (21:47):
Yeah, I mean, I guess it's getting there.
I feel like maybe things arecoming full circle now.
I mean, there was there was atime where you know, when I
first set up the business, youyou're contacting, so generally
you we I would speak tolandlords that have multiple
dwellings in one building, solike a whole block of ideally,
you know, one-bed flats, becausethese would be quite popular
for corporate guests.
And you we would speak to theselandlords and say, look, you
(22:11):
know, put some decent furniturein there, you know, you'd
specify what that's like, andthen the operator would give you
know maybe a five-year or a10-year rental agreement, and
the owner would think, well,that's great, because they've
got a secure tenant for the nextfive years, can look after the
building, maybe take care oflight repairs, and all they have
to do is put some furniture init.
Obviously, you know, afterAirbnb came about, you know,
(22:35):
every every man of his dog'sdoing short bets, and then for
very short periods to probably alot of the time people that
hadn't really been vetted.
So landlords then became very,very wary of these properties
being used or misused by by theby the operator.
So a lot of landlords and thestage at Asians kind of pulled
back for offering thesebuildings.
(22:57):
But I would say it's comingback full circle.
Why?
Because, well, you know, we hadan interest rate shock, you
know, a couple of years ago.
Uh, and what that did was thatmade it increasingly difficult
for private buy-to-let landlordsto actually make any money or
really to stay in the gamebecause a lot of buy-to-let
(23:17):
landlords, you know, they theyjust wanted a good tenant to pay
their rent.
They didn't often didn't enjoybeing a landlord.
Uh, they were holding it forcapital growth.
Um while they made some moneyand they weren't being taxed too
much, they kept it.
But then obviously the theincentives were removed, the
taxes increased, the interestrates went up, and a lot of
buy-to-let landlords got out ofthe game.
(23:38):
So, you know, what's replacingthose buy-to-left landlords is
often more commercial landlordsor landlords with more
commercial aims.
Uh, and that, in conjunctionwith the recent thing that's
gone through Parliament, whichis called Rent's Rights Bill, is
making it less exciting forprivate individuals to buy buy
(23:59):
buy-to-left properties and rentthem to the average go.
So, what we're seeing is havingit coming full circle where
you've got more commercialparties going into investments,
buying or redeveloping blocks of5, 10, 15, 20 flats, maybe even
a whole apart hotel, and thenfinding corporate tenants to
sign a long-term leaseagreement.
Uh, because obviously they'reyou know, their return
(24:20):
requirements probably slightlysome respects, you know, they're
looking for a good incomeguarantee, they're not looking
to deal with private tenants.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (24:27):
And I I are remote, I mean, I don't,
this is the remote workerpodcast, I've got to ask some
remote specific questions.
Are remote workers digitalnomads?
Are they sort of becoming moreinto the mix of those seeking
the you know those types ofaccommodations?
Whether that be people who are,I don't know, the solopreneur
or the the digital nomad or eventhe corporates who are seeking
(24:50):
you know stays for their fortheir teams.
Is that is that coming into themix more?
Ben Davis (24:57):
I mean, I guess there are like there there are so
many like if if you've got likea a I don't know a pie chart of
demand for like who who stays ina service department, it's just
so varied.
You know, that that would bemaybe the the the biggest slice
of that pie would would be wouldbe business travel, and it
(25:18):
would be business travel that isbooked for or by blue chip
organizations and theirrelocation companies.
And so so in that case, thatdemand hasn't really changed,
other than maybe the length ofstay might have changed.
Like uh, you know, originallybusinesses might relocate
somebody for a long period, asenior, that they give them a
(25:39):
flat for three, six, ninemonths, give them a flat for 12
months to see how the projectworks out and to help with the
costs.
And now a lot of that has kindof been reined in, you know,
mainly in line with a lot ofcorporate sort of uh EHD and
carbon, you know, trying to meetcarbon neutral targets,
reducing travel and all thatkind of good stuff.
So wanting to travel less, butstill I would say the majority
(26:03):
of the demand for serviceaccommodation is is that sort of
corporate white collar stuff.
Then you you've got you've gotconstruction workers, right?
You've got people, blue-collarwork.
So, you know, there could be aproject where they're gonna be
building for the next 18 monthsand they've got to get a
workforce into a place becauseyou know they haven't got
everybody there, they're comingin from wherever it is, Ireland
(26:25):
or Scotland or around thecountry.
They've got to be able toaccommodate a whole bunch of
brickies or construction peopleor structural engineers in
chairflats, so that's one type,right?
And that they can stay formonths on end, there's leisure
guests, and you mentioned aboutyou know digital nomads, and
that's a that's a whole othersector.
And I think a lot of the time,I mean, I I'm not one of those,
(26:46):
so I can't speak with confidenceabout it, but I'd like to think
that if I could go anywhere inthe world as a digital nomad or
someone like, would I would Icome to London?
I don't know.
Is this somewhere warmer,nicer, less expensive, safety?
Yeah, exactly.
So you you basically when youwere an individual entrepreneur,
(27:10):
solo entrepreneur, you actuallymentioned it's like you know,
you've got choices, haven't you?
But when you work for acorporate, you you go where
you're put.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (27:18):
This is it.
And actually last time we spokeas well, because I re I
recently moved out of London tokind of get away from the from
the hustle.
And I I at the time I didn'treally think about uh like
service accommodation,short-term accommodation.
All I was thinking about wasactually I want to kind of get
(27:39):
out of London.
I want to sort of a bit moregreenery, a bit more sort of,
you know, I don't had I thoughthad I probably put more thought
into it, it was such a stressfultime, period of time movie.
We were just thinking aboutgetting somewhere to get what we
probably should have done islike get sort of like a service
accommodation.
Ben Davis (27:55):
Because the that's the thing with relocation, like
you've got you know relocationfirms out there that deal with
you know the needs of employees,and you know, imagine imagine
you know you work for medicalmedical company and you have to
uh and they and they and and youlive in the States, but they've
said look you've got thissenior job in in uh in Oxford,
(28:17):
for example, and it's a niceplace, and you're thinking,
okay, well, I probably won'twant to buy in Oxford.
Last thing you want to do isbuy somewhere now before you
even know what it's like to livethere.
So rent service department fora couple of months, two, three
months gives you a chance toactually get a feel for specific
areas.
You might say, actually, I'm inthe city, but I don't want to
live there because I don't know,it's uh convenient or it's
(28:41):
noisy or whatever, and then youget to work out where is good,
and then you can finally putdown routes.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (28:47):
Yeah, precisely that I uh we've just
sort of we signed ourselves intoa nice 12 contract.
Yeah.
I mean, we we got lucky becausewe were in a nice, nice
location, but it doesn't alwayswork out that way.
I had a story of uh one of myfriends, he actually moved, he's
probably he's moved twice now,and again he signed this
long-term accommodation whenwhat really what he should have
(29:08):
done, you should have gotsomething a bit more short-term,
you know, with his kids and uhsomething.
And you can get quite niceplaces as well.
That's another thing I didn'trealise.
I I I just assumed in myignorance that you know,
short-term accommodation is justan apartment, apartment,
apartment.
When now it's kind of you know,houses, you know, you've got
four or five bedroom houses asshort-term accommodation, which
(29:30):
would have been for me.
I've got three kids, so there'sfive of us, so that would have
been ideal for us again.
So I've learned a valuablelesson, uh, an expensive lesson.
Well he has anyway.
So, what's on the horizon thenfor for you, Ben, and any
exciting projects that you'reworking on?
You know, anything exciting inthe world of of short term
accommodation that we need to beaware of?
Ben Davis (29:52):
Um maybe exciting for me.
So a big area for my business,if I'm starting this year from
January, we we We launched adevelopment advisory service.
And what that is in its purestform is we noticed speaking to
developers, investors, andlandlords across the country,
(30:15):
that a lot of commerciallandlords were perhaps
struggling to work out what thefuture held for their block,
meaning commercial values orcommercial yields have moved
out, making things and interestrates have gone up and bill
costs have gone up, making itmore difficult for commercial
(30:35):
landlords to build properties.
And this development advisorysyllabus helps landlords
understand that they could takethe building into more defensive
territory.
I'll give you an example.
But actually that building willconvert quite well into
(31:00):
something else.
And maybe the natural uh routemight just say, okay, well,
let's let's build, let's convertit to residential.
But with no guarantee of whatthe exit is, because you know,
imagine you take an office blockand you convert it into 50, 60
very similar flats, you'reholding quite a liability there
(31:21):
to sell 50 or 60 flats.
So the idea of perhaps creatingsomething more hospitality
shaped is quite appealing.
Um, and the developers don'thave to go through the whole
affordable housing kind ofquestion that building, they're
going from commercial tocommercial.
They're able to build somethingapart hotel shape.
If only they knew what an aparthotel really looked like, what
(31:43):
were the characteristics of it,what would the layout be, what
would the PL look like, youknow, what's it going to cost
the developer?
Who are the good architects?
So it's all that that knowledgegap that we seek to bridge with
the development advisoryservice.
So we offer that to commerciallandlords up and down the
country from Edinburgh toBrighton and everything in
between, anywhere where it mightbe viable or sensible to
(32:05):
operate uh to open an apartmenthotel.
We go through those feasibilityscenarios.
And then very quickly,developer or investor can work
out is this viable?
And if it is, we can take it tothe next step, which is uh
they'll then obviously go andget planning, and then we can
look to identify an operatingsolution.
So bring it to market, gettingan operator in there to sign an
(32:26):
agreement of 25 years to givethem that exit, to give them
that long-term guarantee, maybeintroduce funding solutions.
So that's something we've beenworking on since January with my
colleague Andrew Shaw.
And we've got some reallyinteresting, exciting projects
because you can imagine thereare a lot of redundant assets
out there that need new lifebreathed into them.
(32:47):
And so that's really what we'rehelping these commercial
landlords do, helping themunderstand that you know there's
a whole asset class and type ofuse out there that they might
not have considered or maybehave considered, but just don't
quite know how to get there.
So that's a that's a big areafor us.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (33:04):
It sounds like the landscape of you know
those business areas is gonnachange, you're gonna see a
slightly different type of uhaccommodation.
Do you think that will spreadthen beyond the set you know the
more business areas into sortof like I know you've got a
viability is a big thing, but doyou see it sort of catching on
elsewhere?
Ben Davis (33:23):
Well, the thing is, and uh not necessarily for
corporate housing.
Look, corporate corporatehousing or service departments
for corporates, it's led by aspecific demand.
Uh, and more often than not,there are it's either you know a
CBD district like like London,where there are, you know,
there's there are there arethousands of businesses there
that will uh have a requirementfor employees coming in there,
(33:45):
big and small.
And then there'll be pockets ofdemand across the country, like
you know, a manufacturingplant, uh, an aerospace demand,
a uh an industrial complex orsome maybe an Amazon uh office.
But other than that, a lot ofthe demand that will be around
the country will be just, Idon't know, leisure or sporadic
(34:08):
demand.
And it's often these servicedepartments they operate from
purely residential buildings,sometimes in shared blocks,
sometimes private homes.
You know, how viable is thatlong term?
Because ultimately we have ahousing shortage in the UK.
Uh, the government's doingeverything they can seemingly to
(34:29):
solve it.
You know, certainly talking agood game.
And, you know, uh one thingthat they're bringing in is or
looking to bring in will beregistration and effectively use
classes for serviceaccommodation that kind of
identify what it is rather thansay residential building being
operated for short, that'seither in breach of planning
(34:50):
permission or with consent oflocal authority.
So I think you know, with withregulation, I guess comes a more
sort of solid industry, andwith companies like the ASAP,
the Association of ServiceDepartment providers doing what
they can to legitimise thesector, it can only really be a
good thing.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (35:08):
Sounds good, it sounds exciting.
Ben, it's been it's been greatspeaking to you, it's been
insightful.
I mean, I've got morequestions, you know, but you
answered the main one.
So thank you for your time.
And yeah, it's been really goodto speak to you.
Ben Davis (35:21):
Thank you.
Thanks for inviting me.
Hi everybody, it's Alex once again
from the Remote Work LifePodcast, and today I'm joined by
Ben Davis.
He's the co-founder of Saxbury,a pioneering consultancy
shaping the future ofresidential hospitality.
Now, Ben has spent more thantwo decades across service
departments, apart hotels,co-living spaces, and these are
(00:20):
sectors that have becomeessential for co-located and
remote professionals alike.
Founders, you know, consultantsseeking flexible, high-quality
places to live and work aroundthe world.
In this episode, we'll talkabout how the rise of remote
work is reshaping corporateaccommodation from what
professionals look for inflexible stays to how landlords,
(00:43):
agents, and other stakeholdersare adapting to meet the
evolving needs of an evolvingworkforce.
Ben, thank you very much forjoining me today.
Very welcome.
Thanks for the invitation.
Looking forward to this.
Yes, me too, me too.
So, yeah, Ben, I'd like to justkeep this conversation as I
(01:03):
mentioned around accommodation,all these different types of
accommodation that to be honestwith you, I I don't really know
that much about them.
When I started, as I mentionedbefore, on the conversation that
we had before, there are somany different sort of
connotations and so manydifferent people offering
different things.
I myself have had to stay inservice departments.
(01:25):
And me being the ignorant one,you know, obviously you will
think about Airbnb, but there'sso much, so much more to it than
just that.
So we're gonna be exploringthat today.
But first, could you just startby giving I know I gave you a
bit of an introduction, but tellme a bit about yourself and how
you got into this uh this areaof work.
So try and keep it short andsweet.
Ben Davis (01:45):
I I set up Saxbury uh after being self-employed for
about seven years, working as aproperty finder and for
primarily for corporate housingcompanies.
And that came about because I'dspent a number of years
understanding uh about thedemand side of temporary
(02:06):
accommodation.
So I worked for a globalcorporate booking agency many
years ago uh in sales.
So I built relationships withthe key bookers of temporary
accommodation.
So those companies that hadglobal mobility requirements,
employees that were travelingaround and needed to have those
employees working out theiroffice for extended periods,
(02:27):
maybe periods that would belonger, longer than it would be
comfortable to be in a hotel.
So my job at the time was toidentify who these businesses
were, uh, who the decisionmakers, travel bookers were, and
get on the phone to them andlet them know that there was
something more comfortable, acomfortable alternative and
maybe less costly to staying ina hotel.
(02:49):
And at the time it was verymuch a concept cell because this
was pre-Airbnb, and we were,you know, were effectively
offering uh business gradeaccommodation in in comfortable
flats for their employees andyou know, promoting that happy,
comfortable employees workharder and stay longer.
So it was very much a conceptcell.
And I spent a number of yearsworking within that sector, uh,
(03:11):
first as an agent and then goingto work for uh an operating
company, corporate housingcompany, and did some consulting
for a while for anothercorporate housing company,
primarily in sales, a bit ofsupply chain management.
Realised I could see that thesector was growing rapidly, as
in business take up and demandfor corporate housing was
(03:32):
strong.
I could see that the corporatehousing companies were looking
to grow not only their clientbase, but also their property
portfolio.
And many of these companiesdidn't really have dedicated
property acquisitions teams, sopeople to help expand their
footprint in line with theirdemand for the clients.
And similarly, you could seethat the estate agents, the real
(03:56):
estate sector, didn't reallyknow what corporate housing was.
They understood that maybe theycould rent a whole building to
uh a business, but they didn'treally know that there were
intermediaries out there thatwere leasing up buildings and
then offering them as servicedepartments to their clients for
short periods.
So recognizing a gap, if youlike, I wanted to try and fill
(04:21):
that knowledge gap, which isbuilding relationship which was
building relationships with uhreal estate owners, investors,
state agents, and thenconnecting them with corporate
housing companies that haddemand.
So really interpreting whattheir demand was, identifying
these blocks in key locationswhere I knew the demand would be
strong, uh, and then working topresent those to the operating
(04:44):
companies and negotiatedfavorable terms for both
parties.
So I had a bit of success withthat, did that for about seven
years.
Uh, and then um on a project, Imet uh I met a chap who worked
for another real estate agency.
Uh, and uh over quite a longperiod, we we worked out a
business plan to focus onbuilding uh a real estate
(05:07):
consultancy focused purelyaround service departments.
And I guess at the time therewasn't really anybody doing that
because the service departmentsand apart hotels are they come
within under the hotel useclass.
So they've always been you knowestablished and successful
hotel brokerages, the likes ofthe you know, the big agents
(05:28):
like Savals and Night Frank, etcetera, et cetera.
But that nobody really had beenspecializing on this that
seemed like an alternative or aniche, if you know it.
And so I felt that there wascertainly an opportunity there
uh to uh to present to theworld, to the investors, to the
operators, that there's somebodyand there's a team of people
(05:49):
that understand this sector withuh a real, I guess, niche
experience.
And so we set up SnackSpree toprovide that advice uh both to
developers, to operators, toinvestors, uh everybody in that
value chain uh and offer thosesolutions, brokerage,
development advisory in thatspace.
We've been doing that nowapproximately nine years, and uh
(06:10):
yeah, still here.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (06:12):
Yeah, and uh and I like I said, I I still
think there's there's still onmy on the side that I'm on, at
least, of the side, i.e., youknow, I'm I myself am a
consultant, and I've I've alsobeen in the the sort of on the
corporate side.
So I've also had situationswhere I've had to book
(06:34):
accommodation myself, or atleast somebody within the
corporate headquarters, HR, orwe didn't have a global mobility
team, had to book thataccommodation for me.
And their go-to is just like uhlike I said, Airbnb, let's just
look at Airbnb, or somethinglike what's the hotel chain
called?
Those little prem Premier In.
(06:54):
So pr things like Premier In.
So, but I've learned so muchjust by looking, just looking at
your LinkedIn profile, to behonest with you, and also
obviously looking at Saxburywebsite in terms of the variety
of accommodation that is is outthere, the kind of options that
are out there.
Ben Davis (07:11):
Yeah, absolutely.
Like I think if you're an inemployee or if you're uh PA, uh
travel department or something,you you've got to find
accommodation for your employee.
I guess it starts with um this,you know, there's the need, so
and so needs to be in a certainplace for a certain period.
It's about trying to find out,I guess, firstly, what what what
(07:32):
does the employee really want?
What are they gonna becomfortable with?
Are there budget requirementsas well?
If somebody's staying for, youknow, longer than three or four
days or a week or more, thenyes, an apartment would be
ideal.
It's probably it's probablygoing to be less expensive, it's
certainly going to be morecomfortable because people can
cook for themselves and eat whatthey want when they want rather
(07:54):
than being restricted aroundbreakfast.
And there's also you know,there's lots of other reasons
why business is businesses abovecorporate housing or service
departments.
It could be it could be a ladytraveling on on her own, not you
know, and and wanting to bemore self-sufficient rather than
having to dine in therestaurant, you know, and it's
it's just these things whenyou're a regular traveller, you
(08:16):
you probably want to do thingsmore on your own shift and the
different types ofaccommodation.
I mean, it's uh yeah, it mustbe very difficult for for
businesses to work out what'swhat because you'll look online,
you'll Google servicedepartments in Birmingham, for
example, uh, and you won't knowwho's an agent, you won't know
who's an operator, you won'tknow who owns their flats, who
(08:38):
rents them.
You might not care.
But actually, you what you careabout is you know, are they is
is is the flat real?
Is it clean, safe, and legal?
Uh is the operator going to beprofessional like a hotelier,
and uh, you know, are you gonnaget any uh blowback from the
employee when they when theycheck in?
Alex Wilson-Campbell (08:58):
Yeah, I think you put I mean we talked
about this as well last time wespoke, but yeah, you you you do
that's what I would care about,or at least if I was booking on
behalf of somebody else, I'dcare about the their comfort,
the facilities, you know, allthose different types of things.
And I just did an exercise acouple, you know, couple after
again after we've finishedspeaking, just to see, you know,
if I was trying to book a anapartment in, I don't know, in
(09:21):
centre of London, for example, Ijust did an exercise.
I thought, let me see how easyit is for me to do that.
And it it it really wasn'tbecause you obviously again
you've got Airbnb, but you'vethen you I as I said last time,
there's like you see thesedifferent websites and you can't
distinguish whether the websiteis an agent or is like some
sort of aggregator of of of sortof apartments or apart hotels,
(09:46):
and then you kind of go down abit of a rabbit hole.
Ben Davis (09:49):
So it's kind of like and I I couldn't see any sort of
necessarily any sort of isthere any regulator to sort of
like I don't know that helps youwith going in that direction of
which ones are the you know thethe the ones that uh worthwhile
staying at or it or there is acompany called the Association
(10:10):
of Service Department Providers.
It's been around for a longtime.
Um it's it's an associationthat uh professional service
department operators can seekthem out, uh join them, get
accredited.
So somebody will come visittheir properties and you know
give them a seal of approvalbased on you know a number of
(10:32):
different hallmarks and factorsthat business travelers demand,
safety, legality, all those kindof things.
And then they're part of thatgroup.
But again, it's very niche andit's difficult, you know.
And companies will then promotethat they're registered with
the ASAP, and then I guessthat's a hallmark of quality.
But I guess if you don't knowwhat ASAP is, then you don't
(10:55):
necessarily you don't know tolook for it.
So you know, the ASAP team, whoI know really well, with some
great people, they will promotethis to the nth degree.
But you know, I guess until umthe it becomes sort of somehow
enshrined in the law withrespect to property use classes
and you know what you what onemust do to operate service
(11:17):
accommodation, then it'll alwaysbe something that you're always
just trying to, you know,eagerly, but at the same time
have a huge amount of barriersto, you know, you mentioned
about you know how you findproperty and the different sorts
of property, and yeah, it'sreally, really difficult.
And a lot of the time when youfind service departments on a
website other than Airbnb, otherthan booking.com, you might not
(11:38):
even be able to actuallyreserve them for specific dates.
You might just have to make aninquiry and wait till they get
back to you.
And that's mainly borne out ofthe fact that you know, if
you're if you're an operator andyou've got a block of 20 flats
and the majority of your guestsstaying for 30, 60, 90 days,
these people might have anoption to extend.
So the last thing you want todo is pull the rug from beneath
(12:00):
them and sell dates in advancefor three nights or four nights.
So, you know, these short stayseffectively fill voids.
And so it depends on thestrategy.
You know, then conversely,you've got a lot of people, the
operational Airbnb, they'reactively targeting short stays
for higher rates, leisureguests, and they do the other
and they kind of sell the shortstays well in advance.
(12:21):
And if you want a long stay andcorporately want to stay for a
week or a month, then you know,you might have a hard job
actually getting into that flatbecause the availability
calendar's been repeated.
So, you know, so that's why Iguess it's it's best if you're
if you're a business travelleror yeah, if you're a repeat
regular apartment user, maybenot to use websites like Airbnb,
(12:44):
maybe to use specialist travelbooking companies, specialist
apartment booking companies,relocation companies, because
they tend to have an accountmanager, they'll do it for you.
You tell them what you need,assessment.
They say, okay, Alex, so and soneeds to be in Burnham for two
months within a matter of halfan hour.
They've sent them lists ofvetted options that are all
(13:05):
available and they all meet thebudget and the requirements.
And you know, companies likeSilverdoor Booking Agency,
they're pretty much one of thebiggest global booking agencies
they've got, you know, bigglobal supply chain.
Uh, and they'll they'll go andhandle your needs and uh you
know provide provide a goodservice with it as well and sort
of demystify the whole process.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (13:26):
That's what you want.
You want you don't want to haveI mean, I like I said, I spent
as an exercise, I just spentlike probably 30 minutes, and I
still didn't get to the pointwhere I was like, yep, that's
the one.
So I can only imagine that ifyou if you're if you've got you
know a corporate team or ifyou're again somebody like
myself, it's gonna be difficult.
But I I've noticed as well.
I mean, there's again, there'sso many different options.
(13:50):
We talk about up heart hotels,all these different kinds of
variations.
Have you uh uh Ben, have youseen the needs of professionals
and businesses change over overthe years?
I mean, even since I I meanI've noticed it, but I I I don't
necessarily know what it is, ifthat makes sense.
But I've noticed that there'sthere's more it's more in your
(14:11):
face a bit more in terms of yourability to go to a co-living
place or your ability to go to aservice department.
Is that something that is isyou notice as well?
I'm well I'm sure you have.
Ben Davis (14:22):
I mean, like what's in a name, I guess, like service
department.
What is a service department?
It's an apartment beingservice, but what does that
really mean?
You know, service department,the service department of sector
is a bit of a capsule for youknow corporate housing,
apartment hotels, and you know,in its purest form, a service
department generally would belike an operating company who
(14:46):
probably signs a lease on abuilding, uh, decorates it
beautifully, nice furniture, uh,provides cleaning once a week,
bundles in the bills, and thenmakes it available for periods
of weeks and months to corporateguests.
An apart hotel may be morerelatively new here in the UK,
though being actually quitepopular in places like Australia
(15:07):
uh and elsewhere in the euroand Asia for, I don't know,
maybe 20, 30 years, believe itor not.
And but an apartment hotel isessentially, you know, maybe 50,
100 units in a block.
So more hotel kind of volume ofunits, each unit being kind of
like a self-contained studio onebed or two bed flat, probably a
(15:30):
bit smaller than a regularhome, uh, still with that
service element, housekeepingbills included, normally with a
front desk.
So you kind of walk through it,has that sense of security that
when you walk through the doorand you you might see somebody,
uh, there might be a gym, itmight be a cafe or something,
(15:50):
and then you can rent theseflats for periods of a night or
maybe three months or fourmonths.
And so that's a more sort of Iguess sort of sanitized
corporate version of the servicedepartment, if you like.
Right.
And and led your guests willchoose that because they, you
know, everybody likes the ideaof an Airbnb, but sometimes the
(16:11):
reality falls short, like youknow, it looks beautiful
pictures, and then the realitythat you're in somebody's home
kind of you know doesn't workfor a lot of people.
Uh or you know, maybe maybethey're inexperienced travellers
and they just like the thisnotion of security where they go
in through the front door andthey go upstairs and then you
know they there's not a dooronto the street.
So apart hotels work for thatreason.
(16:32):
A lot of groups of you know,friends and leisure guests might
book it over the weekendbecause they can, you know,
they've got, you know, dare Isay with the party pad or
somewhere to get get readybefore they go out, you know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
They're fun.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (16:45):
So yeah.
Are they normally do theynormally have like communal
spaces in the part hotels aswell?
Because that that's somethingI'm noticing a lot.
People are sort of demandingmore, is sort of if they're
especially like you said thesegroups people get together, they
have one of these communalspaces.
Is that something that'sCameron?
Ben Davis (17:01):
It's always a challenge when you're a
developer because you knowyou're looking at you know
revenue or development costs ona price per square meter.
So if it's non-revenuegenerating space as a developer,
you've got to kind of askyourself, why is it why is it
there?
But you know, you you you tendto find you certainly find
communal spaces within co-livingdevelopments.
(17:22):
You know, co co-living isessentially residential rather
than hospitality, but there areelements of hospitality that are
creped crept into co-living andto make it a more interesting
rental product, you know,co-living in its purest form is
essentially you know, it's builtaround accommodation.
It's residential accommodationfor people staying, you know,
(17:44):
certainly three months, butprobably 12 months.
They probably have a little, Iguess nearest thing I could
describe it as if you think ofpurpose-built modern student
accommodation, but they'reavailable to non-students.
Uh maybe the design is slightlymore or less student-y.
Instead of having a commonroom, you're going to have maybe
(18:06):
a co-working room where theresidents can come down from
their probably tiny flat, butcome and enjoy some convenient.
And these communal facilitiesare active to value add on the
rent because you know, maybesomebody's paying an
all-inclusive rental upstairsthat might be proportionately
slightly higher than it would beif they were renting a room in
(18:27):
a share flat.
But actually, when you'vebundled in your bills and when
you've added a gym, a cinemaroom, you don't have to take
that gym membership.
Yeah.
It actually kind of makessense.
The communal aspects areeffectively the hook for
upstairs.
But in an apartment space,normally the communal spaces
(18:47):
would be, you know, maybe moreminimal, again, because of
development costs, and it'sprobably reserved to be things
like co-working or maybe even acoffee shop.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (18:57):
Got it.
You've actually answered mynext question, actually, quite
quite a lot, which is goodbecause uh obviously when you're
booking, you obviously expectgood Wi-Fi, but apart from that,
you're gonna have a cinema.
Well, I wouldn't mind a cinemaroom, actually, but that that'd
be more in a car a co-livingspace, as you're saying.
What other sort of defaultfacilities should uh especially
(19:19):
as a corporate, would you wouldwould you sort of expect?
Because I know I'd want a deskat least.
Ben Davis (19:26):
Well, uh yeah, like I think let's just say most of
the corporate focused servicedepartment companies generally
post-COVID, post-lockdown,really, they they they had to
find ways of cramming desks inthe flats because actually a lot
of people that were bookingthem were either not in an
office or they were thinking, ormaybe they were you know
(19:48):
self-employed people.
And I thought, but you knowwhat, rather than booking a
hotel and get a co-workingspace, I need to be in this town
or this city for a week or amonth visiting clients.
I'm just gonna book a servicedepartment, but I need this to
be my office as well.
So a lot of these companieswere making sure that they can
put a desk in there.
I guess you know, some werejust uh I don't know, saying,
(20:10):
Oh, well, you can work at thedining table, but actually
that's not really verycomfortable when you're so yeah,
no a lot of the good corporatehousing companies I know uh
would would make sure that theyhave a desk, work, work, work
table in there, uh work workchair, sorry.
Obviously, good good strongWi-Fi uh or the ability to
upgrade that Wi-Fi to somethingslightly stronger for a cost.
(20:32):
But you know what?
Apart from that, there aren'treally many work or specialist
work provisions put into theplan.
Um you know, they have a coffeemachine, but you kind of expect
that anyway, you know, anespresso or something.
There are there is yeah, therewas one company I came across
that actually was very focusingtheir service departments very
(20:52):
much on the worker where theywould uniquely they would put a
desk in there and they would putlike dual screens in there, so
you could just go and put it upin company in London, can't
quite remember the name now.
Uh and yeah, they're calledRemote Lease.
Uh and they kind of growthroughout London, good company.
But yeah, so it's maybe ifyou're a tech person, you don't
(21:13):
want to have to take all thatparaphernalia with you to you.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (21:15):
Yeah, exactly.
But I I guess then, because youtalked about your your
relationship, your your uhintermediary landlords,
investors, etc.
Are they sort of open andadapting to this new wave of
professionals?
Because I can only imagine ifsomebody's if there's a landlord
looking to rent their premises,they're thinking, I just want a
(21:38):
tenant in there, I want atenant, but are are they sort of
open now to sort of differenttypes of tenant?
And are agents the same?
Ben Davis (21:47):
Yeah, I mean, I guess it's getting there.
I feel like maybe things arecoming full circle now.
I mean, there was there was atime where you know, when I
first set up the business, youyou're contacting, so generally
you we I would speak tolandlords that have multiple
dwellings in one building, solike a whole block of ideally,
you know, one-bed flats, becausethese would be quite popular
for corporate guests.
And you we would speak to theselandlords and say, look, you
(22:11):
know, put some decent furniturein there, you know, you'd
specify what that's like, andthen the operator would give you
know maybe a five-year or a10-year rental agreement, and
the owner would think, well,that's great, because they've
got a secure tenant for the nextfive years, can look after the
building, maybe take care oflight repairs, and all they have
to do is put some furniture init.
Obviously, you know, afterAirbnb came about, you know,
(22:35):
every every man of his dog'sdoing short bets, and then for
very short periods to probably alot of the time people that
hadn't really been vetted.
So landlords then became very,very wary of these properties
being used or misused by by theby the operator.
So a lot of landlords and thestage at Asians kind of pulled
back for offering thesebuildings.
(22:57):
But I would say it's comingback full circle.
Why?
Because, well, you know, we hadan interest rate shock, you
know, a couple of years ago.
Uh, and what that did was thatmade it increasingly difficult
for private buy-to-let landlordsto actually make any money or
really to stay in the gamebecause a lot of buy-to-let
(23:17):
landlords, you know, they theyjust wanted a good tenant to pay
their rent.
They didn't often didn't enjoybeing a landlord.
Uh, they were holding it forcapital growth.
Um while they made some moneyand they weren't being taxed too
much, they kept it.
But then obviously the theincentives were removed, the
taxes increased, the interestrates went up, and a lot of
buy-to-let landlords got out ofthe game.
(23:38):
So, you know, what's replacingthose buy-to-left landlords is
often more commercial landlordsor landlords with more
commercial aims.
Uh, and that, in conjunctionwith the recent thing that's
gone through Parliament, whichis called Rent's Rights Bill, is
making it less exciting forprivate individuals to buy buy
(23:59):
buy-to-left properties and rentthem to the average go.
So, what we're seeing is havingit coming full circle where
you've got more commercialparties going into investments,
buying or redeveloping blocks of5, 10, 15, 20 flats, maybe even
a whole apart hotel, and thenfinding corporate tenants to
sign a long-term leaseagreement.
Uh, because obviously they'reyou know, their return
(24:20):
requirements probably slightlysome respects, you know, they're
looking for a good incomeguarantee, they're not looking
to deal with private tenants.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (24:27):
And I I are remote, I mean, I don't,
this is the remote workerpodcast, I've got to ask some
remote specific questions.
Are remote workers digitalnomads?
Are they sort of becoming moreinto the mix of those seeking
the you know those types ofaccommodations?
Whether that be people who are,I don't know, the solopreneur
or the the digital nomad or eventhe corporates who are seeking
(24:50):
you know stays for their fortheir teams.
Is that is that coming into themix more?
Ben Davis (24:57):
I mean, I guess there are like there there are so
many like if if you've got likea a I don't know a pie chart of
demand for like who who stays ina service department, it's just
so varied.
You know, that that would bemaybe the the the biggest slice
of that pie would would be wouldbe business travel, and it
(25:18):
would be business travel that isbooked for or by blue chip
organizations and theirrelocation companies.
And so so in that case, thatdemand hasn't really changed,
other than maybe the length ofstay might have changed.
Like uh, you know, originallybusinesses might relocate
somebody for a long period, asenior, that they give them a
(25:39):
flat for three, six, ninemonths, give them a flat for 12
months to see how the projectworks out and to help with the
costs.
And now a lot of that has kindof been reined in, you know,
mainly in line with a lot ofcorporate sort of uh EHD and
carbon, you know, trying to meetcarbon neutral targets,
reducing travel and all thatkind of good stuff.
So wanting to travel less, butstill I would say the majority
(26:03):
of the demand for serviceaccommodation is is that sort of
corporate white collar stuff.
Then you you've got you've gotconstruction workers, right?
You've got people, blue-collarwork.
So, you know, there could be aproject where they're gonna be
building for the next 18 monthsand they've got to get a
workforce into a place becauseyou know they haven't got
everybody there, they're comingin from wherever it is, Ireland
(26:25):
or Scotland or around thecountry.
They've got to be able toaccommodate a whole bunch of
brickies or construction peopleor structural engineers in
chairflats, so that's one type,right?
And that they can stay formonths on end, there's leisure
guests, and you mentioned aboutyou know digital nomads, and
that's a that's a whole othersector.
And I think a lot of the time,I mean, I I'm not one of those,
(26:46):
so I can't speak with confidenceabout it, but I'd like to think
that if I could go anywhere inthe world as a digital nomad or
someone like, would I would Icome to London?
I don't know.
Is this somewhere warmer,nicer, less expensive, safety?
Yeah, exactly.
So you you basically when youwere an individual entrepreneur,
(27:10):
solo entrepreneur, you actuallymentioned it's like you know,
you've got choices, haven't you?
But when you work for acorporate, you you go where
you're put.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (27:18):
This is it.
And actually last time we spokeas well, because I re I
recently moved out of London tokind of get away from the from
the hustle.
And I I at the time I didn'treally think about uh like
service accommodation,short-term accommodation.
All I was thinking about wasactually I want to kind of get
(27:39):
out of London.
I want to sort of a bit moregreenery, a bit more sort of,
you know, I don't had I thoughthad I probably put more thought
into it, it was such a stressfultime, period of time movie.
We were just thinking aboutgetting somewhere to get what we
probably should have done islike get sort of like a service
accommodation.
Ben Davis (27:55):
Because the that's the thing with relocation, like
you've got you know relocationfirms out there that deal with
you know the needs of employees,and you know, imagine imagine
you know you work for medicalmedical company and you have to
uh and they and they and and youlive in the States, but they've
said look you've got thissenior job in in uh in Oxford,
(28:17):
for example, and it's a niceplace, and you're thinking,
okay, well, I probably won'twant to buy in Oxford.
Last thing you want to do isbuy somewhere now before you
even know what it's like to livethere.
So rent service department fora couple of months, two, three
months gives you a chance toactually get a feel for specific
areas.
You might say, actually, I'm inthe city, but I don't want to
live there because I don't know,it's uh convenient or it's
(28:41):
noisy or whatever, and then youget to work out where is good,
and then you can finally putdown routes.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (28:47):
Yeah, precisely that I uh we've just
sort of we signed ourselves intoa nice 12 contract.
Yeah.
I mean, we we got lucky becausewe were in a nice, nice
location, but it doesn't alwayswork out that way.
I had a story of uh one of myfriends, he actually moved, he's
probably he's moved twice now,and again he signed this
long-term accommodation whenwhat really what he should have
(29:08):
done, you should have gotsomething a bit more short-term,
you know, with his kids and uhsomething.
And you can get quite niceplaces as well.
That's another thing I didn'trealise.
I I I just assumed in myignorance that you know,
short-term accommodation is justan apartment, apartment,
apartment.
When now it's kind of you know,houses, you know, you've got
four or five bedroom houses asshort-term accommodation, which
(29:30):
would have been for me.
I've got three kids, so there'sfive of us, so that would have
been ideal for us again.
So I've learned a valuablelesson, uh, an expensive lesson.
Well he has anyway.
So, what's on the horizon thenfor for you, Ben, and any
exciting projects that you'reworking on?
You know, anything exciting inthe world of of short term
accommodation that we need to beaware of?
Ben Davis (29:52):
Um maybe exciting for me.
So a big area for my business,if I'm starting this year from
January, we we We launched adevelopment advisory service.
And what that is in its purestform is we noticed speaking to
developers, investors, andlandlords across the country,
(30:15):
that a lot of commerciallandlords were perhaps
struggling to work out what thefuture held for their block,
meaning commercial values orcommercial yields have moved
out, making things and interestrates have gone up and bill
costs have gone up, making itmore difficult for commercial
(30:35):
landlords to build properties.
And this development advisorysyllabus helps landlords
understand that they could takethe building into more defensive
territory.
I'll give you an example.
But actually that building willconvert quite well into
(31:00):
something else.
And maybe the natural uh routemight just say, okay, well,
let's let's build, let's convertit to residential.
But with no guarantee of whatthe exit is, because you know,
imagine you take an office blockand you convert it into 50, 60
very similar flats, you'reholding quite a liability there
(31:21):
to sell 50 or 60 flats.
So the idea of perhaps creatingsomething more hospitality
shaped is quite appealing.
Um, and the developers don'thave to go through the whole
affordable housing kind ofquestion that building, they're
going from commercial tocommercial.
They're able to build somethingapart hotel shape.
If only they knew what an aparthotel really looked like, what
(31:43):
were the characteristics of it,what would the layout be, what
would the PL look like, youknow, what's it going to cost
the developer?
Who are the good architects?
So it's all that that knowledgegap that we seek to bridge with
the development advisoryservice.
So we offer that to commerciallandlords up and down the
country from Edinburgh toBrighton and everything in
between, anywhere where it mightbe viable or sensible to
(32:05):
operate uh to open an apartmenthotel.
We go through those feasibilityscenarios.
And then very quickly,developer or investor can work
out is this viable?
And if it is, we can take it tothe next step, which is uh
they'll then obviously go andget planning, and then we can
look to identify an operatingsolution.
So bring it to market, gettingan operator in there to sign an
(32:26):
agreement of 25 years to givethem that exit, to give them
that long-term guarantee, maybeintroduce funding solutions.
So that's something we've beenworking on since January with my
colleague Andrew Shaw.
And we've got some reallyinteresting, exciting projects
because you can imagine thereare a lot of redundant assets
out there that need new lifebreathed into them.
(32:47):
And so that's really what we'rehelping these commercial
landlords do, helping themunderstand that you know there's
a whole asset class and type ofuse out there that they might
not have considered or maybehave considered, but just don't
quite know how to get there.
So that's a that's a big areafor us.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (33:04):
It sounds like the landscape of you know
those business areas is gonnachange, you're gonna see a
slightly different type of uhaccommodation.
Do you think that will spreadthen beyond the set you know the
more business areas into sortof like I know you've got a
viability is a big thing, but doyou see it sort of catching on
elsewhere?
Ben Davis (33:23):
Well, the thing is, and uh not necessarily for
corporate housing.
Look, corporate corporatehousing or service departments
for corporates, it's led by aspecific demand.
Uh, and more often than not,there are it's either you know a
CBD district like like London,where there are, you know,
there's there are there arethousands of businesses there
that will uh have a requirementfor employees coming in there,
(33:45):
big and small.
And then there'll be pockets ofdemand across the country, like
you know, a manufacturingplant, uh, an aerospace demand,
a uh an industrial complex orsome maybe an Amazon uh office.
But other than that, a lot ofthe demand that will be around
the country will be just, Idon't know, leisure or sporadic
(34:08):
demand.
And it's often these servicedepartments they operate from
purely residential buildings,sometimes in shared blocks,
sometimes private homes.
You know, how viable is thatlong term?
Because ultimately we have ahousing shortage in the UK.
Uh, the government's doingeverything they can seemingly to
(34:29):
solve it.
You know, certainly talking agood game.
And, you know, uh one thingthat they're bringing in is or
looking to bring in will beregistration and effectively use
classes for serviceaccommodation that kind of
identify what it is rather thansay residential building being
operated for short, that'seither in breach of planning
(34:50):
permission or with consent oflocal authority.
So I think you know, with withregulation, I guess comes a more
sort of solid industry, andwith companies like the ASAP,
the Association of ServiceDepartment providers doing what
they can to legitimise thesector, it can only really be a
good thing.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (35:08):
Sounds good, it sounds exciting.
Ben, it's been it's been greatspeaking to you, it's been
insightful.
I mean, I've got morequestions, you know, but you
answered the main one.
So thank you for your time.
And yeah, it's been really goodto speak to you.
Ben Davis (35:21):
Thank you.
Thanks for inviting me.
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