September 18, 2024 • 41 mins
In this engaging episode of Remotely One, co-hosts Rick Haney and Kaleem Clarkson sit down with the multi-talented Kendall Wallace, Founder and Lead Facilitator at Executive Offsites, to discuss her transformative career, her approach to building strong team connections, and her insights into customer and user experience. With a career spanning leadership roles in customer experience, user experience (UX), and remote team facilitation, Kendall brings a wealth of knowledge to the conversation.
Hailing from Richmond, Virginia, and a proud University of Virginia graduate, Kendall began her professional journey in sales before transitioning into the tech world. Her first significant role came at Park Jockey, a startup where she eventually rose to become the Global Head of Customer Experience. It was in this role that she realized the power of user experience in creating more intuitive and efficient digital platforms. One of the key takeaways from Kendall's journey is her passion for building meaningful team connections, especially in the context of remote work. As the founder of Executive Offsites, Kendall designs and leads in-person retreats aimed at fostering communication, trust, and collaboration among distributed teams.
Her retreats emphasize the importance of blending work-related goals with opportunities for personal connection, helping remote teams build stronger relationships and tackle the challenges of maintaining trust and communication.
A highlight of this conversation is the in-depth look into Kendall’s transition from customer experience to UX, a move driven by her role at Park Jockey. As the head of customer support, she noticed recurring issues that could be solved through better UX design. By identifying patterns in customer inquiries, she saw how user-friendly digital experiences could prevent problems from arising in the first place.
Kendall shares her confidence that remote work is here to stay and reveals why in-person retreats are set to play a pivotal role in shaping the future of distributed teams. She dives into how these offsites can build trust and connection, emphasizing the need for personalized approaches rather than one-size-fits-all solutions. Expect valuable insights on designing meaningful team experiences that truly impact dynamics!
Her passion for fostering meaningful relationships in both personal and professional spaces shines throughout the episode. Kendall’s mix of vulnerability, leadership wisdom, and enthusiasm makes this a must-listen for anyone navigating remote work or looking to strengthen team dynamics. Whether you’re leading a remote team or simply navigating workplace challenges, Kendall’s story offers valuable lessons on growth, self-awareness, and the power of human connection. With her holistic approach to team-building, Kendall provides a roadmap for creating stronger, more resilient teams in an increasingly remote world.
Learn more about Kendall:
- Kendall’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kendall-wallace/
- Executive Offsites: https://executiveoffsites.com/
More about us:
- Remotely One’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/remotelyone
- Remotely One’s Webpage: https://www.remotelyone.com/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Rick (00:00):
We're not cutting back to Katie Couric or anything.
Kaleem (00:02):
Can you say Katie Couric's name?
Does she do something weird?
I don't know who you can sayanymore.
Rick (00:08):
He's so afraid.
That's what makes the show fun.
Kendal (00:10):
Katie Couric is a legend, okay?
Rick (00:13):
She is a
Kaleem (00:13):
a legend.
I, you know, I, I've alwaysliked Katie.
You know,
Kendal (00:16):
Funny thing, uh, my mom and her went to the same high
school.
Rick (00:20):
Oh, cool.
Kaleem (00:20):
Was Katie a nerd or was she cool or did she do anything
weird?
Kendal (00:24):
Did
Rick (00:24):
He does, she doesn't
Kendal (00:25):
weird?
Dude, I don't know.
All I know is she would, she didalso go to my alma mater, and
uh, she's super cool.
Like, I saw her at reunionsonce, and I was like, so stoked.
Rick (00:37):
I'll tell you how cool she is, all right?
And tell all your friends,because this is like a major
story.
A guy I know in our hometown hasa cat named Kitty Couric,
because of her.
Kaleem (00:47):
That's fucking
Rick (00:49):
if you ever see her, you know, at town or reunions or
whatever, just let her know,Hey, there's a cat in Bangor,
Maine named Kitty Couric.
You should know
Kendal (00:55):
Okay.
Good to know.
Rick (01:03):
Welcome back everybody to Remotely One.
I am your co host, rather, RickHaney, joined by my esteemed
colleague, Kaleem Clarkson.
What is happening, brother?
Oh, you got the happy hands clubgoing on over
Kaleem (01:16):
Oh, this is also I want to do for today's guest.
Like if, if no one can see me,but I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm doing the
hula kind of I'm trying.
It's, it's not very good.
It's not very good.
semi Polynesian.
How you doing?
Moana, such a good movie.
Rick (01:34):
Make way! Make way!
Kaleem (01:38):
How you been, man?
Rick (01:39):
Good, good, good.
I'm going to address theaudience now.
Audience, since you know how tofind us, do us a huge favor, go
to ratethispodcast.
com forward slash remotelyoneand just leave us a review.
Please and thank you.
Again, it's ratethispodcast.
com forward slash remotelyone.
If you could do that for us, wewould be ever so grateful.
(02:00):
Since 2015, remotely one is oneof the largest communities of
remote work professionals withover 3, 000 slack members and 5,
000 email subscribers.
It's free to join.
So go check it out at remotelyone.
com.
And with that out of the way,Kaleem, give us a tease or two
about today's guest.
Kaleem (02:20):
Oh, yeah, today's guest, Rick.
I'm nervous again.
Um, you know, I have a niceshirt on today.
I put it on, I put on my collegeshirt,
Rick (02:29):
I'd say we almost kind of match.
We kind of match.
Kaleem (02:32):
Well, we are in the same studio, Rick.
You know what I'm saying?
We are in the same studio.
You're looking great, too, asusual, by the way.
Rick (02:38):
I feel it.
I feel it.
Kaleem (02:39):
let's see.
What, what, what?
Guest, we didn't even ask youthis.
Guest, where are you originallyfrom?
Guest, this is a great intro.
Kendal (02:47):
Virginia.
Richmond, Virginia, by the way.
Not Northern Virginia.
Kaleem (02:52):
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
Our guest is from, they said it,Virginia.
They are graduate from theuniversity of Virginia in
culture and commerce.
That's interesting.
Go Cavaliers.
You, you,
Rick (03:04):
Wow.
Kendal (03:06):
History and global culture and commerce.
Yeah.
Kaleem (03:09):
global culture in commerce and then the Cavaliers,
you, you, I had to do it again.
Um, let's see.
She started off in sales.
And then transitioned to becomethe global head of customer
experience at a company calledpark jockey.
Real interesting.
We're gonna have to talk aboutthat, sir.
Rick (03:27):
Mm hmm.
Kaleem (03:28):
Interesting fact about our guests is they became a
Swifty, Rick.
They became a Swifty and so muchthat they even started watching
football again because of it.
And, um, yeah, I guess, can youjust give the energy drink a
free plug right now?
Can you give the energy a freeplug?
She listens.
(03:50):
She's such a Swiftie that shegot sucked in to the new heights
podcast that's hosted by TravisKelsey and Jason Kelsey the
brothers.
And now she's drinking theirenergy drink that sponsors it.
Kendal (04:01):
because Travis just plugs how delicious the
accelerator, active energy,sugar free energy drink is.
The Rocket Pop flavor, whichthey've drank with their mom,
Mama Swifty.
Huh?
Or Mama, Mama Kelsey.
Mama
Kaleem (04:17):
Mama Kelsey.
Holy shit.
Is it good?
Kendal (04:19):
It's delicious.
It is
Rick (04:22):
my.
What's the caffeine count onthat?
How many milligrams of caffeineare we
Kendal (04:26):
get this thing shipped in.
Uh, let's see.
I don't know.
Kaleem (04:29):
Get this thing shipped in, that's the best.
Kendal (04:32):
I do! I'm living in Hawaii.
I get it shipped in.
Yeah.
Kaleem (04:36):
Oh, okay.
Guess don't ruin my intro.
Okay.
Okay, so
Rick (04:42):
The nerve of some people, I swear.
Kaleem (04:44):
hey, by the way, accelerator were available for
sponsors.
So you just got a free plug.
Rick (04:50):
Yep.
Kaleem (04:51):
Let's see.
What else about our guests?
This is the best intro we've hadin a while.
After they, had their time at,you know, Park Jockey, our
guests then found themselves asa user experience researcher at
a little tiny company, Rickcalled Facebook.
Bam, bam.
Um, and then after that, theyfounded, an authentic travel
(05:13):
adventures.
And they are also the founderand lead facilitator, at
executive offsites that has aflagship program.
You ready for this Rick inHawaii?
And that's where they
Rick (05:29):
Oh Do you know Magnum PI?
Kendal (05:35):
No, but I've seen
Rick (05:36):
Shit
Kendal (05:38):
know.
Kaleem (05:39):
Oh my gosh.
Listeners.
And viewers, please give a warmwelcome to Kendall.
Rick (05:48):
Oh Yeah
Kaleem (05:54):
Let's go.
Let's go.
Kendal (05:56):
Wow! That
Kaleem (05:58):
down studio audience.
Settle down.
Sit down.
We're not all going to Hawaii.
Rick (06:03):
You're gonna get sent home early if
Kaleem (06:04):
to Hawaii.
We, we can't take you all toHawaii.
Rick (06:07):
This is a professional endeavor here of
Kaleem (06:09):
we want to go to Hawaii to settle down, settle down.
Thank you.
Woo.
Rick (06:13):
Goodness.
See we have an in studioaudience on command Nobody else
can offer that.
Nobody else.
It's good to have you here,Kendall.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
Kendal (06:23):
I'm so happy to be here.
That was one of the best introsI've ever received.
Rick (06:28):
We dive deep here at a remotely one.
No question.
Yes,
Kaleem (06:34):
Yes, I mean, we're psyched.
We're psyched.
Rick (06:37):
you've, accomplished a lot and we want to highlight a lot
of those accolades.
So we're
Kendal (06:41):
Okay.
Alright.
Awesome.
Rick (06:43):
let's dive into it.
My First question is, is, iskind of a doozy.
That's Kaleem's
Kendal (06:48):
man.
Rick (06:49):
doozy.
Kendal (06:50):
Okay.
Kaleem (06:50):
I'm
Rick (06:51):
So.
Ah, two words that are mentionedseveral times over and over on
your LinkedIn profile, our teamand connection.
And so my question to you is, intoday's remote world, why are
these terms so important?
And how are they related?
Mm
Kendal (07:13):
Rick! Good start.
Um, why is it so important?
Well, first of all, with team, Imean, you got, in order to get
stuff done, as individuals, thatare distributed, because I just
attended the running remoteconference by the way, and,
(07:33):
Yeah, in Lisbon, and we talkedabout using the term
distributed, even, althoughdistributedly one might be a
little, it's not quite, doesn'treally ring off quite, quite as
well, but um, yeah, that indistributed teams, you know,
it's so important to operate asa unit in order to succeed and
provide deliverables, and Ithink what's so important and
(07:56):
even, even research shows thatlike connection.
especially in a distributedteam, is absolutely necessary to
create team trust, which then,you know, creates people
actually being able to get thework they need done.
So like, they're so interrelatedin just every way.
(08:17):
And, you know, I see this in theoff sites I facilitate, I saw it
in the, the different companiesI worked for, where the absence
of connection.
And really led to moreisolation, lack of team, and
thus, like, us not hitting ourresults in some cases.
Rick (08:38):
Oh, you do a lot of.
In person events, and you've hada lot of experience with that.
Do you notice a trend, like,every time, is there a
noticeable difference betweenhow people are when they arrive,
and how they are when theyleave?
Ha ha
Kendal (08:53):
Oh my god, yeah, totally.
It's nuts! It's night and day!It really is! Over the course
of, so a lot of my events are acouple of days, although I'll do
whatever Bespoke, you know,opportunity that teams need,
whether it's an afternoon, aday, or three days.
But, the ones that I reallyenjoy are a couple days, at
least two nights.
(09:14):
And, you know, you come from theskepticism of, you know, and a
lot of times these teams haven'tmet in person.
Right?
Like, yet.
So this is like their firstopportunity to really get
together and make thoseconnections.
And like, yes, you canabsolutely design and do that
just by bringing peopletogether.
It's better than nothing.
(09:34):
But then when you integrate twoskilled facilitation and the
integration of like different,Activities that mimic the way
people work and you can havethese rich debriefs afterwards
and on top of like theConnection exercises for people
to get to know each other alittle bit deeper than like,
yeah I have three kids and youknow, Timmy plays baseball, but
(09:56):
like actually getting deeper atsome of the values of why people
like are actually working on theteam like what inspires them to
do the work they're Doing likewhen you actually access that
which takes a little bit of timeYou know, the, Yeah, absolutely.
And then the results are like,you know, I'll never forget me,
uh, walking up a hill afterthis, like in this beautiful,
(10:19):
like grassy field where we hadour like closing remarks, last
summer with, this chiefmarketing officer for this
company.
And I'm just saying, wow, thisis single handedly the best
value per head of like anyoffsite I've ever experienced.
And like that.
He was saying how just gettingone person motivated from that
(10:39):
org of 40 was like worthmillions to him.
And then when you get the levelof connection from people just
having a good time together too,like that, like money can't buy
that, you know, it's fascinatingtoo, because people can tell the
difference between BS fun versuslike actual authentic fun.
Kaleem (10:59):
100%.
I actually have a question inregards to when you're talking
about connection and you'rebuilding retreats, what is kind
of the ratio?
I've heard Chase Warrington talka lot about this would do as far
as how they plan their retreatsand what their intent is.
So with your executive offsites,obviously, you know, people come
(11:20):
in with their own perceptions ofwhat they want to happen.
But for remote companies andhybrid companies or distributed
companies that are not workingtogether on site all the time,
what is kind of your suggestedadvice to, companies as far as
how much time they want toallocate to get work done and
(11:42):
then how much time.
They should allocate for fun.
And then maybe how much timethey should also allocate for no
schedule at all.
Nothing planned at all.
Free time.
What are your thoughts on on,on, on the makeup?
Kendal (11:56):
It's interesting, I saw Chase and we had a discussion
around this at the RunningRemote Conference and like,
Chase gave this wholepresentation about the structure
he uses and to be perfectlyhonest, he has a little bit more
free time than me, built in tohis retreats that he organizes.
Like, I think, I forget theexact breakdown, but it was
(12:18):
something like 50 percent freetime or something.
It was pretty substantial, Iforget the exact one.
Rick (12:24):
Typical rich guy.
Kendal (12:26):
Well, Well, here's,
Kaleem (12:30):
He's not really
Kendal (12:31):
what's fu
Rick (12:33):
It's a long standing joke.
Kaleem (12:35):
he was on the show.
We love chase.
He was on the show in his name.
His name sounds rich.
Rich.
Hello.
I'm Chase Warrington.
He was like one of his coachesin high school used to give him
so much shit.
Yeah.
Kendal (12:47):
Like.
Yeah,
Kaleem (12:52):
horse.
Yeah, he does put in a lot offree time and a lot more than
most people, which is it'sinteresting concept.
Their
Kendal (13:03):
so the thing that I've noticed, if left for their own
devices, and I saw this, Iexperienced this, right, if left
for their own devices with thedowntime and the free time and
the dinners, you know, peopletend to gravitate towards like
the people they know on theteam, their little clicks.
Um, and, it never moved theneedle on the communication
(13:26):
challenges that actually neededto take place, like, at this in
person time.
And what was so funny at theconference is, there's this
professor from Harvard.
I forget his name, but he gave apresentation that validated this
exact concept with data showingthat, when you kind of have,
bring these in person gettogethers, you know, people tend
(13:47):
to gravitate towards theirethnic groups.
That was like some of hisfindings.
And like, the people that aremost like them.
Kaleem (13:53):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like why do all the black kidssit at the table?
Yeah.
It's a book.
Sorry.
The context.
That's a famous book.
It's a famous book that talksabout that research.
Like, why do all the black kidssit at the table?
It's like, it's a famous book.
Sorry.
Kendal (14:07):
Yeah, no, it's all good.
And like, I think back to when Iwas at Facebook, being on the
travel ads team, and that, itwas, it's interesting, because,
overall, diversity, like,Facebook was a very, diverse
company to work for, but it wasinteresting, too, how certain
teams were more ethnically,like, stacked in some ways.
For example, this, there wasthis team of 50, and it was
(14:29):
probably 40 people that wereChinese.
Like, it was just veryinteresting.
And so that was an experiencefor me, too, to be at the lunch
table for that particular team,and people were speaking
Chinese.
Um, anyway, I had a follow upconversation with this professor
and I was just like, do you feelthat facilitation and especially
(14:50):
like when it's intentional rightso we're like creating these
intentional in personopportunities to break down
barriers to create crossfunctional collaboration so you
can't kind of be like, in myview, right, and this is where I
differ from others it's like, Inmy view, you can't kind of like
leave that to chance.
Like,
Kaleem (15:09):
No.
Kendal (15:10):
just hope that those conversations are going to
happen.
Like that, in my experience,hasn't really worked versus, of
course you need downtime forsure.
But I try to facilitate the typeof conversation that I know is
going to like fix some of thosecommunication challenges and get
people to interact with peoplethey wouldn't normally.
Kaleem (15:31):
so does your thing vary?
Like, basically, you don't havea prescriptive percentage of how
much time that are scheduled,how much time is for fun.
so it just kind of, varies basedon
Kendal (15:40):
Yeah, to be honest with you, I would say maybe like 20
percent is more the free time.
So that's where I'll, I'm,that's a big gap between
probably, I forget if Chase is50 or not, but yeah, and 20 and
so there's definitely somedowntime, but, um, yeah.
Kaleem (15:56):
how much work and how much fun?
Kendal (15:57):
it's really based on three different areas.
One is focusing on the teamdynamics.
One is having you as having fun.
Let's have fun, and, but let'snot let it be a checkbox of
like, cool, we did an escaperoom.
Let's have fun, and maybe, sure,we'll design an activity that
mimics the way people operate,and then we have a rich debrief
afterwards.
(16:18):
The second is like somethingunique that's actually brings
kind of awe, Because the levelof awe can actually create, does
something in the brain where itjust creates a memorable event.
And then the third aspect iscreating that team alignment.
So I really try to create abalance between those three, but
like all of my events willalways have those three
components and then depending onwhat the team needs to achieve.
(16:41):
get out of the event, like toget that ROI from, you know, the
C suite for the investment andthe time, then, there's, yes,
there can be a substantial focuson some of the in person, uh,
the alignment.
So that third aspect.
So I just try to create at leasta, on a three day event though,
at least a day and a half of thefirst two.
(17:01):
And you know, one of thestructures too that helps is to
have like a head heartexercises, head heart break.
So you don't want to have peopletoo intellectually stimulated
and then they drone on and onand it's whoa, I just, I need a
shift, you know what I mean?
So it's all learning frommentors and learning from and
books and also experience tocreate that stimulation,
(17:23):
breaking it up.
Rick (17:24):
I love it.
Kaleem (17:25):
Head heart.
That's great.
I like that.
Head heart.
Head heart.
Rick (17:28):
So, earlier, I'm assuming it was earlier in your career,
uh, you were exposed to customerservice, um, customer experience
rather, in the travel cruiseindustry, is that correct?
Kendal (17:40):
I, it was actually Park Jockey.
So Park Jockey was a company Iworked for which was, um, an app
for paying for your parkingonline as a tech startup.
Rick (17:49):
Walk me through the transition from customer
experience to user experience atFacebook.
Kendal (17:54):
Yeah, totally.
Great question.
Thank you.
So, basically I was at thisbootstrapped, You know, tech
startup, park jockey, and it wastricky.
It was hard times.
You know, I saw people, peoplecome in and I saw those bigger
more well paid people kind of,that those budgets get cut and
they leave and that was tricky.
(18:15):
But in my role as head ofcustomer experience, I also saw
inquiries.
I was in charge of customersupport and then working with
our CTO to, basically alleviate,some of the patterns that I saw
come in tickets.
Because the support tickets,obviously, there's a lot of the
same tickets that come in.
And once I saw that, like, thesame questions were happening,
(18:36):
and we could actually do thingsin, from a UX perspective, if I
knew how to do that, like, withcolors, with designing the site,
designing the app accordingly,we could really minimize the
number of, inquiries we got andreally create a lot of cost
savings for the company.
So I saw that UX was really theway to go for me at that time.
(18:58):
And so that's where I reallymade the decision, okay, I need
to get the best training outthere for how to do UX.
And so that's where I, I enteredthis training program at
Facebook at the time.
And it was great experience toget that training.
Kaleem (19:13):
What do you think was actually the biggest difference
between like just customerexperience and then user
experience?
I know like a lot of times userexperience, people are
graphically inclined, um, formerdesigners.
I know a lot of people get intoUX experience that are
designers.
So do you have a designbackground or were you coming
from more of, I did a lot ofcustomer experience.
User experience is, You know,customers are users a lot of
(19:36):
times.
So there is a lot ofsimilarities, but what were the
big similarities, but then whatwere the big differences?
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And now, back to the show.
Kendal (21:49):
Yeah, that's a great question.
When I decided that UX was mypath, I did not come from a
graphic design background.
That's where a lot of UXdesigners come in.
And once I noticed that thereare, at bigger companies,
there's a split between UXresearch and UX design.
Smaller companies, it's kind ofthe UX designers are all
encompassing and there areThey're supposed to do their own
(22:12):
research, which they may or maynot have capacity to do.
But in these larger companies,the roles are split.
And so I saw my skills as apeople person, as an
interviewer, as getting peopleto, you know, feel safe enough
with me to really reveal howthey actually felt about the
app.
Even if it was like a level ofhatred that, Yeah, they felt I,
(22:36):
that was more where my skillslaid.
So, that's where I looked foropportunities to, to do UX
research.
And I think the differencesthere are, I mean, it's really
very different.
So in, in customer experience,it was all around, yeah,
managing customer support, youknow, really, liaising with
(22:57):
customers the tech team toprevent inquiries, to really
have that customer experience bea positive one, all the way from
working with operators to likethe actual experience on the
web, but the, to the delivery ofthe product and versus, UX
research was really about, youknow, creating studies and
having these methods at myfingertip of doing surveys and
(23:22):
in depth interviews, and focusgroups, and, all these different
methodologies to basically getat the root cause of why we
weren't seeing, certainengagement on a certain thing.
Rick (23:35):
Hmm.
Kendal (23:35):
yeah, I love all this inquiry on this stuff.
I haven't talked about thisstuff in like forever.
Kaleem (23:40):
I'm a fake designer.
So I was just curious.
I was like, yeah, how did youjust teach yourself how to be a
designer?
And you're like, no, theyactually split it.
So user
Kendal (23:48):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But I hustled, you know, that'sthe thing, Kaleem, I've been a
hustler, like, so I, there wasthis program to learn, once I
figured out that I wanted tomake that transition at that
time between customer experienceand UX, and I didn't even know
the difference in the splitbetween research and design, I
(24:09):
reached out to this program headof this program to learn UX
research and design, and I said,hey, can I take your course for
free if I fill it?
And so I just, yeah, I barteredmy way into it, you know, and
then, and it's just so funnybecause too, like even getting
the job at Facebook, it was ahustle, you know, it's always
(24:30):
kind of really just like work inthe game to make things happen.
Kaleem (24:34):
Congratulations.
Kendal (24:35):
and now I use those UX research skills, which is really
cool in like designing what theoffsites are going to be for the
team experiences, or even ifit's not just off sites, like
I'm getting into coachingspecifically and it's around,
it's utilizing those skills fromUX research to do the surveys
like make sure we're monitoringmetrics to see the, yeah.
(25:00):
the pre and the post to see theimpact as well as like the in
depth interviews.
And again, it's relying on thatskill set of making people feel
safe, to be honest.
And I think that's something toothat like managers can do more
effectively.
I've seen like, you know, isreally being able to come with a
like almost like an embodimentto those that they manage that
(25:22):
allows for open dialoguecommunication.
Rick (25:26):
Hmm.
So, I did have an additionalquestion about your Facebook
experience.
And I'm wondering, was there amoment where you were just like,
I'm gonna leave this place andbegin travel adventures.
And this is what I want to doinstead of working at Facebook,
you know.
Was there something like thatthat occurred?
Or was it just something organicthat continued to build?
Oh,
Kendal (25:47):
something that happened.
Kaleem (25:49):
leap of faith though, you know?
Kendal (25:50):
Yeah, well, it was more like a big leap of faith being
forced out the door.
I mean, I was fired for notbeing a good teammate.
No! It's all good.
Rick (26:03):
Okay, good,
Kaleem (26:04):
this is part of the story.
Kendal (26:05):
this is part of the story.
This is what set me on thispath.
Um,
Rick (26:09):
Do
Kendal (26:12):
You know, when something like that happens, you get fired
for not being a good teammate,you know, take a hard look at
yourself.
And there's definitely stuff tobe responsible for in my, well,
this is, this you guys might geta kick out of, but in my
behavior of, um, I'll just beperfectly candid with you.
(26:33):
There was another, you know,very like high powered woman on
the team I was on.
And.
It seemed like no matter what,she wouldn't listen to me.
Like, only, my research had tosupport exactly what she wanted
with her direction.
And it's like, every time, I waslike, sorry, my research is not
showing that your direction'sworking.
(26:54):
Um, that did not go over well.
And it really triggered me andreally bothered me.
And then I looked at it, andthough, I was asked the
question, where in your life didsomeone make you not feel heard
or seen and just it was her wayor the highway?
And I was like, oh my god, isthis all to do with my mother?
(27:17):
And it's the truth.
It's true.
It's totally the truth.
I was bringing unhealed mom shitinto the workplace, you know?
And like, think about how often,like, the funny thing about that
though, is That set me on thispath to then study, do the
continuing studies program atthe Bowen Center for Family.
(27:38):
Understanding how the way inwhich we're brought up in the
families of origin and in thefamilies we create actually
impacts how we operate in theworkplace.
yeah, it set me on this path tounderstand, like, from a
psychological point of view,like why we operate the way we
(27:59):
do.
And then at the same time ithad, it showed me that even
though at a company like that,where there were so many
investments in millions ofdollars being spent in, in like
bringing the team together,that, in my case, sure it was
being, getting fired, but inothers there was a lot of team
(28:19):
switching and things of thatnature.
And it's like, Why are we notmaking investments on moving the
needle on Joe and Bob workingbetter together two weeks from
now?
Like, that just doesn't makesense to me.
It doesn't make sense to me tohave a communication class and
then not have the people thatyou work directly with in the
class.
(28:39):
They're just missedopportunities there to create
that psychological safety that'sso important.
So that's why I'm on thismission, to really create that.
And that, and it's come from apersonal place, you know,
because
Kaleem (28:51):
You can tell, you can tell.
Kendal (28:53):
Oh,
Kaleem (28:54):
Well, no, I mean, just, you tell them the story.
It's it hits really close thehome with me because I was in a
very similar situation and nowthe path is completely
different.
And I had to do my ownreflection and to hear the words
that you said, I was fired fornot being a good teammate.
I mean, that hurts any humanbeing.
And the fact that you had thewherewithal to say, Hey, wait,
(29:18):
yes, there was some shit thatwas happening that I didn't
agree with, but this shit's onme and now you're building
retreats in Hawaii and all overthe world to bring companies
together.
I'm getting emotional.
I'm getting emotional.
So thank you for sharing that.
Um, and.
(29:38):
No, I got some here.
I got some here, but it's, it's,you know, these are the stories,
man, that we're, that's why westarted this podcast, man.
And, um, that's what this isabout.
And if you can't hear some ofthese stories and get emotional
and see what they're doing, andwe were talking about, you're
working with some greatcompanies to be able to just
say, Hey, look, I need to dothis.
Kudos to you.
I just want to say thank you forsharing.
(29:59):
And it was, it was awesome.
Yeah.
Kendal (30:03):
The truth is, is that if you don't create, if you don't
create functional teams, like,your actual livelihood can be
impacted.
And it's like, that's what's atstake.
And also your happiness.
Your enjoyment of life.
You know, like, we're not tryingto be like slaves to our jobs
here with no purpose in life.
(30:24):
Like, some might be fine withthat, but I'm not really.
And, um,
Kaleem (30:29):
most people are not.
Kendal (30:30):
Yeah,
Rick (30:31):
they just accept it.
Kendal (30:32):
yeah, and I think we spend so much time with people
we work with that it's like, whywould we not try and have the
best relationships possible whenwe know that meaningful
professional relationships arewhat create people to enjoy
where they work?
Kaleem (30:48):
Mmm
Kendal (30:49):
it seems counterintuitive.
Kaleem (30:50):
so many great nuggets in this whole interview, so
Rick (30:54):
Oh yeah.
Kaleem (30:55):
been great
Rick (30:55):
Yeah, I mean, so we, segwaying back into my previous
question about retreats, whichwe've talked about at length
already, but most remotecompanies are investing in these
retreats nowadays, so where doyou think remote work is heading
and
Kendal (31:09):
yeah, yeah, thank you.
Well, at the Running RemoteConference, it was certainly put
on over and over by all thekeynotes that it ain't going
away and that it is here
Kaleem (31:21):
Not
Kendal (31:22):
stay.
And,
Kaleem (31:24):
a good rap line.
Oh
Kendal (31:26):
yeah, Annie, Annie Dean at Atlassian actually has a
really good report that talkedabout the future of work, not
going away.
And I truly believe that.
The interesting part about it,as I live here in Hawaii, you
know, and I'm able to, you know,run on the beach in the morning
(31:46):
and go surfing in the afternoon,like, I'm going to create a life
where I can still do that here.
And I think we've all gotten ataste of it, you know, at least,
and I think, One of the thingsthat's kind of known too is this
legacy kind of attachment to theoffice, is also the people who
are more likely to be attachedto the office.
(32:07):
Number one, I've been there along time, like, that's their
careers.
There's a loss of identitythere.
That is like, oh, if I have togive this up, like, who am I?
You know, that's attached totheir identity, their work
identity.
So, I think with that generationretiring, I think that
attachment will, for lack of abetter word, die off.
(32:27):
but these investments in inperson time, like, being very
necessary, especially for newgraduate, who need that
socialization of how to work inthe workplace.
Like, that stuff doesn'tnecessarily need to take place
in an office.
It can take place, you know, atreally meaningful in person
experiences every three months.
(32:50):
I don't see it going away, toanswer your question, Rick.
Kaleem (32:53):
You hear that folks?
It ain't going away.
Rick (32:55):
You heard it here, see?
Kaleem (32:58):
Stop tripping.
Stop tripping.
Damn it.
Kendal (33:00):
doll?
What's your problem?
Kaleem (33:02):
Keep going.
That
Rick (33:09):
Remote work is here to stay, see?
Kendal (33:12):
As you wear a paperboy cap.
Rick (33:15):
do! I do! That's why I wear it! Read all about it!
Kaleem (33:24):
is so
Rick (33:25):
That is amazing.
Kaleem (33:27):
come on, dawg.
Come on, dawg.
Rick (33:29):
We're gonna take you up to see the big cheese.
I
Kendal (33:37):
So
Rick (33:37):
was born in a different time.
I don't belong here.
Kaleem (33:39):
I love it.
I love.
Yes, you do, Rick.
And we need people that respecthistory and can recite these
lines.
And because
Kendal (33:46):
Yeah.
Kaleem (33:46):
don't understand, you know?
Kendal (33:49):
It's so
Kaleem (33:49):
man.
Kendal (33:50):
I think that's like 30s, right?
That's like 30s.
Rick (33:53):
20s, 30s, somewhere around there.
Yeah,
Kaleem (33:55):
Like Dick Tracy type shit.
Rick (33:57):
yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, uh, Kendall, can you sharewith us a comical or inspiring
moment you had while workingremotely?
Kendal (34:05):
Yes.
I can give you, um, yes, Iabsolutely can.
Kaleem (34:10):
Okay.
Now, Now, now, be sure to set itup.
Give us
Kendal (34:13):
Yeah.
Well, I kind of have
Kaleem (34:15):
geeked up.
Kendal (34:16):
four.
Rick (34:17):
Okay!
Kendal (34:18):
They're not, very long.
Kaleem (34:19):
Okay.
We're here for him.
Kendal (34:20):
okay.
Kaleem (34:21):
Start with the worst one first and move up.
Let's see.
Let's let's migrate towards it.
Kendal (34:25):
Okay.
Okay.
So, so here's, here's, here'sthe truth.
Is that at the end of 2020, Ispent a month working in Hawaii
and then I.
So I went pretty muchimmediately to Costa Rica and
spent a month working remotelythere.
And they were, because I wastrying to surf both places, and
(34:46):
they were like night and dayexperiences.
So I had this meeting, and atone point in time, the biggest
challenge about Costa Rica wasthe Wi Fi.
So I, at one point in time, Oneof my meetings, I literally
ended up in the reception areaof a, like, hotel, like, on the
(35:10):
floor.
The, the, the receptionistthere, like, to my left, and I
just remember sitting on this,like, cold tile floor, trying
to, like, be in this meeting,and just being like, this is
absurd, like, I need better WiFi.
Also, Then I gave a presentationand I was like, okay, this, I
(35:34):
need, I'm going to go to thebest wifi in town.
All right.
I found my fiber optic and Iwent there for the presentation
and, you know, okay.
Made every arrangement for it towork.
However, didn't think about thefact that the wind could take
out all of the electricity inthe town.
(35:54):
So then I'm like, okay.
Delayed getting on for this likepresentation in front of 200
people.
Like it was my moment.
And I'm like, I'm like too, too,you know, I, yeah, it was a, it
was a tricky one.
Those were not great experienceswith, having Wi Fi and, and
working remotely.
However, then I'll contrastthose experiences with two
(36:19):
moments where I'm on Zoom callsin Hawaii.
The first is, I'm really tryingto comport myself.
It's my first time experiencingthese big waves.
And I'm like looking at myscreen and in the background are
these massive waves.
Cause we had this huge swell.
And it's just like a 20 footwave.
And I'm like trying to keep mycomposure.
(36:40):
And in the background there'slike this just full on show for
Mother Nature.
Just being like, Yeah! And itwas a similar thing during whale
season, where I'm like, again,on a Zoom call trying to keep my
composure, and then there's thishumpback whale just like, using
the entire background to keepjust breaching and breaching.
(37:01):
And I mean, that was justabsolutely spectacular.
And it was just like a, cause itwas like a, it was like a moment
between me, and the whale, andthe universe, and like nobody
knew about it.
You know?
Kaleem (37:13):
So you kept your cool and you were able to keep
everything going and no oneknew.
But like, as you're sittingthere on your computer, like,
did you get nervous and shit?
Like you picked up your computerand started walking back when
the waves were coming in.
Like, Oh snap, that wave is waytoo close.
That wave is way too close.
Kendal (37:29):
no.
I was looking out the window.
I was at a table.
So, I was
Rick (37:33):
Okay.
Kaleem (37:33):
like, Oh shit.
You started running.
Kendal (37:35):
No, No, just had to
Rick (37:36):
Feeling nervous!
Kendal (37:38):
You know?
Yeah.
Kaleem (37:40):
That is pretty cool.
That is pretty cool.
Rick (37:42):
That is amazing.
So, where can our listeners andviewers find you?
Kendal (37:45):
Yeah, so you guys can reach me at Kendall, with two
L's, by the way, K E N D A L L,at executiveoffsites.
com.
or you can reach out to me atcorporate offsites is the
Instagram or www.
executiveoffsites.
com and I do a free 30 minuteconsult for anybody who wants
(38:06):
some strategic advice oncreating their offsite or their
in person get together, or quitefrankly, even if they're not
ready for that, just how theycan build trust among their
team.
And I will say There's actuallytwo things that I'm kind of
piloting at the moment because Ifeel so confident that I can add
value here.
So the first is I am doing astudy this summer where I,
(38:30):
because data is so important,between a control group of
offsites, like planned, youknow, kind of a normal way
versus, you know, kind of havingmy, take in my method on the
offsites.
And I'm really looking for teamsthat are struggling with their
team connection or trust, tobasically crown some, one team
(38:52):
at the end of the summer themost improved team.
And I am willing to offer theman offsite for free for this
study, where it's, yeah, whereit's, Pay me what you think it's
worth when I really vastlyimprove, uh, your team's
dynamic.
Kaleem (39:09):
there.
in Hawaii and we'll,
Kendal (39:10):
Ha
Rick (39:10):
your invitation.
Kaleem (39:11):
your challenge.
We accept your invitation, Rick.
We will be there.
We're going to, we're going torecord live from Hawaii.
Um, executive offsites.
com
Kendal (39:21):
Love
Kaleem (39:21):
one.
We'll be there.
So
Kendal (39:22):
it.
You're so welcome.
Yeah, well
Rick (39:24):
Yeah.
Kendal (39:25):
off sites obviously too, in Hawaii or Elsewhere.
Rick (39:28):
No, we're only interested in Hawaii.
I'm sorry.
Kendal (39:30):
Okay, alright.
Okay.
The other thing I just want toplug real quick is just that the
other kind of opportunity isgive me two people who don't get
along on a team one day togetherand guarantee that by the end of
the day they will be workingwell together.
Kaleem (39:50):
Well, you heard it here.
Guaranteed Kendall.
Thank you so much for coming onthe show.
We appreciate it.
Can't wait to, you know, hang 10on some of those waves, dude.
Brody.
Rick (40:02):
Jeez.
Kendal (40:03):
ha ha
Kaleem (40:04):
wait.
I've seen Point Break.
I've seen I've seen,
Rick (40:08):
Yeah,
Kaleem (40:08):
I've seen Point Break, bro.
Rick (40:11):
okay.
Kaleem (40:11):
thank you so much.
Rick (40:12):
Kendall, you are a sport.
Thanks for tolerating us.
Kendal (40:15):
Aw, thank you guys for having me.
It's been a treat.
Kaleem (40:18):
We'll talk to you later.
Peace.
We're not cutting back to Katie Couric or anything.
Kaleem (00:02):
Can you say Katie Couric's name?
Does she do something weird?
I don't know who you can sayanymore.
Rick (00:08):
He's so afraid.
That's what makes the show fun.
Kendal (00:10):
Katie Couric is a legend, okay?
Rick (00:13):
She is a
Kaleem (00:13):
a legend.
I, you know, I, I've alwaysliked Katie.
You know,
Kendal (00:16):
Funny thing, uh, my mom and her went to the same high
school.
Rick (00:20):
Oh, cool.
Kaleem (00:20):
Was Katie a nerd or was she cool or did she do anything
weird?
Kendal (00:24):
Did
Rick (00:24):
He does, she doesn't
Kendal (00:25):
weird?
Dude, I don't know.
All I know is she would, she didalso go to my alma mater, and
uh, she's super cool.
Like, I saw her at reunionsonce, and I was like, so stoked.
Rick (00:37):
I'll tell you how cool she is, all right?
And tell all your friends,because this is like a major
story.
A guy I know in our hometown hasa cat named Kitty Couric,
because of her.
Kaleem (00:47):
That's fucking
Rick (00:49):
if you ever see her, you know, at town or reunions or
whatever, just let her know,Hey, there's a cat in Bangor,
Maine named Kitty Couric.
You should know
Kendal (00:55):
Okay.
Good to know.
Rick (01:03):
Welcome back everybody to Remotely One.
I am your co host, rather, RickHaney, joined by my esteemed
colleague, Kaleem Clarkson.
What is happening, brother?
Oh, you got the happy hands clubgoing on over
Kaleem (01:16):
Oh, this is also I want to do for today's guest.
Like if, if no one can see me,but I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm doing the
hula kind of I'm trying.
It's, it's not very good.
It's not very good.
semi Polynesian.
How you doing?
Moana, such a good movie.
Rick (01:34):
Make way! Make way!
Kaleem (01:38):
How you been, man?
Rick (01:39):
Good, good, good.
I'm going to address theaudience now.
Audience, since you know how tofind us, do us a huge favor, go
to ratethispodcast.
com forward slash remotelyoneand just leave us a review.
Please and thank you.
Again, it's ratethispodcast.
com forward slash remotelyone.
If you could do that for us, wewould be ever so grateful.
(02:00):
Since 2015, remotely one is oneof the largest communities of
remote work professionals withover 3, 000 slack members and 5,
000 email subscribers.
It's free to join.
So go check it out at remotelyone.
com.
And with that out of the way,Kaleem, give us a tease or two
about today's guest.
Kaleem (02:20):
Oh, yeah, today's guest, Rick.
I'm nervous again.
Um, you know, I have a niceshirt on today.
I put it on, I put on my collegeshirt,
Rick (02:29):
I'd say we almost kind of match.
We kind of match.
Kaleem (02:32):
Well, we are in the same studio, Rick.
You know what I'm saying?
We are in the same studio.
You're looking great, too, asusual, by the way.
Rick (02:38):
I feel it.
I feel it.
Kaleem (02:39):
let's see.
What, what, what?
Guest, we didn't even ask youthis.
Guest, where are you originallyfrom?
Guest, this is a great intro.
Kendal (02:47):
Virginia.
Richmond, Virginia, by the way.
Not Northern Virginia.
Kaleem (02:52):
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
Our guest is from, they said it,Virginia.
They are graduate from theuniversity of Virginia in
culture and commerce.
That's interesting.
Go Cavaliers.
You, you,
Rick (03:04):
Wow.
Kendal (03:06):
History and global culture and commerce.
Yeah.
Kaleem (03:09):
global culture in commerce and then the Cavaliers,
you, you, I had to do it again.
Um, let's see.
She started off in sales.
And then transitioned to becomethe global head of customer
experience at a company calledpark jockey.
Real interesting.
We're gonna have to talk aboutthat, sir.
Rick (03:27):
Mm hmm.
Kaleem (03:28):
Interesting fact about our guests is they became a
Swifty, Rick.
They became a Swifty and so muchthat they even started watching
football again because of it.
And, um, yeah, I guess, can youjust give the energy drink a
free plug right now?
Can you give the energy a freeplug?
She listens.
(03:50):
She's such a Swiftie that shegot sucked in to the new heights
podcast that's hosted by TravisKelsey and Jason Kelsey the
brothers.
And now she's drinking theirenergy drink that sponsors it.
Kendal (04:01):
because Travis just plugs how delicious the
accelerator, active energy,sugar free energy drink is.
The Rocket Pop flavor, whichthey've drank with their mom,
Mama Swifty.
Huh?
Or Mama, Mama Kelsey.
Mama
Kaleem (04:17):
Mama Kelsey.
Holy shit.
Is it good?
Kendal (04:19):
It's delicious.
It is
Rick (04:22):
my.
What's the caffeine count onthat?
How many milligrams of caffeineare we
Kendal (04:26):
get this thing shipped in.
Uh, let's see.
I don't know.
Kaleem (04:29):
Get this thing shipped in, that's the best.
Kendal (04:32):
I do! I'm living in Hawaii.
I get it shipped in.
Yeah.
Kaleem (04:36):
Oh, okay.
Guess don't ruin my intro.
Okay.
Okay, so
Rick (04:42):
The nerve of some people, I swear.
Kaleem (04:44):
hey, by the way, accelerator were available for
sponsors.
So you just got a free plug.
Rick (04:50):
Yep.
Kaleem (04:51):
Let's see.
What else about our guests?
This is the best intro we've hadin a while.
After they, had their time at,you know, Park Jockey, our
guests then found themselves asa user experience researcher at
a little tiny company, Rickcalled Facebook.
Bam, bam.
Um, and then after that, theyfounded, an authentic travel
(05:13):
adventures.
And they are also the founderand lead facilitator, at
executive offsites that has aflagship program.
You ready for this Rick inHawaii?
And that's where they
Rick (05:29):
Oh Do you know Magnum PI?
Kendal (05:35):
No, but I've seen
Rick (05:36):
Shit
Kendal (05:38):
know.
Kaleem (05:39):
Oh my gosh.
Listeners.
And viewers, please give a warmwelcome to Kendall.
Rick (05:48):
Oh Yeah
Kaleem (05:54):
Let's go.
Let's go.
Kendal (05:56):
Wow! That
Kaleem (05:58):
down studio audience.
Settle down.
Sit down.
We're not all going to Hawaii.
Rick (06:03):
You're gonna get sent home early if
Kaleem (06:04):
to Hawaii.
We, we can't take you all toHawaii.
Rick (06:07):
This is a professional endeavor here of
Kaleem (06:09):
we want to go to Hawaii to settle down, settle down.
Thank you.
Woo.
Rick (06:13):
Goodness.
See we have an in studioaudience on command Nobody else
can offer that.
Nobody else.
It's good to have you here,Kendall.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
Kendal (06:23):
I'm so happy to be here.
That was one of the best introsI've ever received.
Rick (06:28):
We dive deep here at a remotely one.
No question.
Yes,
Kaleem (06:34):
Yes, I mean, we're psyched.
We're psyched.
Rick (06:37):
you've, accomplished a lot and we want to highlight a lot
of those accolades.
So we're
Kendal (06:41):
Okay.
Alright.
Awesome.
Rick (06:43):
let's dive into it.
My First question is, is, iskind of a doozy.
That's Kaleem's
Kendal (06:48):
man.
Rick (06:49):
doozy.
Kendal (06:50):
Okay.
Kaleem (06:50):
I'm
Rick (06:51):
So.
Ah, two words that are mentionedseveral times over and over on
your LinkedIn profile, our teamand connection.
And so my question to you is, intoday's remote world, why are
these terms so important?
And how are they related?
Mm
Kendal (07:13):
Rick! Good start.
Um, why is it so important?
Well, first of all, with team, Imean, you got, in order to get
stuff done, as individuals, thatare distributed, because I just
attended the running remoteconference by the way, and,
(07:33):
Yeah, in Lisbon, and we talkedabout using the term
distributed, even, althoughdistributedly one might be a
little, it's not quite, doesn'treally ring off quite, quite as
well, but um, yeah, that indistributed teams, you know,
it's so important to operate asa unit in order to succeed and
provide deliverables, and Ithink what's so important and
(07:56):
even, even research shows thatlike connection.
especially in a distributedteam, is absolutely necessary to
create team trust, which then,you know, creates people
actually being able to get thework they need done.
So like, they're so interrelatedin just every way.
(08:17):
And, you know, I see this in theoff sites I facilitate, I saw it
in the, the different companiesI worked for, where the absence
of connection.
And really led to moreisolation, lack of team, and
thus, like, us not hitting ourresults in some cases.
Rick (08:38):
Oh, you do a lot of.
In person events, and you've hada lot of experience with that.
Do you notice a trend, like,every time, is there a
noticeable difference betweenhow people are when they arrive,
and how they are when theyleave?
Ha ha
Kendal (08:53):
Oh my god, yeah, totally.
It's nuts! It's night and day!It really is! Over the course
of, so a lot of my events are acouple of days, although I'll do
whatever Bespoke, you know,opportunity that teams need,
whether it's an afternoon, aday, or three days.
But, the ones that I reallyenjoy are a couple days, at
least two nights.
(09:14):
And, you know, you come from theskepticism of, you know, and a
lot of times these teams haven'tmet in person.
Right?
Like, yet.
So this is like their firstopportunity to really get
together and make thoseconnections.
And like, yes, you canabsolutely design and do that
just by bringing peopletogether.
It's better than nothing.
(09:34):
But then when you integrate twoskilled facilitation and the
integration of like different,Activities that mimic the way
people work and you can havethese rich debriefs afterwards
and on top of like theConnection exercises for people
to get to know each other alittle bit deeper than like,
yeah I have three kids and youknow, Timmy plays baseball, but
(09:56):
like actually getting deeper atsome of the values of why people
like are actually working on theteam like what inspires them to
do the work they're Doing likewhen you actually access that
which takes a little bit of timeYou know, the, Yeah, absolutely.
And then the results are like,you know, I'll never forget me,
uh, walking up a hill afterthis, like in this beautiful,
(10:19):
like grassy field where we hadour like closing remarks, last
summer with, this chiefmarketing officer for this
company.
And I'm just saying, wow, thisis single handedly the best
value per head of like anyoffsite I've ever experienced.
And like that.
He was saying how just gettingone person motivated from that
(10:39):
org of 40 was like worthmillions to him.
And then when you get the levelof connection from people just
having a good time together too,like that, like money can't buy
that, you know, it's fascinatingtoo, because people can tell the
difference between BS fun versuslike actual authentic fun.
Kaleem (10:59):
100%.
I actually have a question inregards to when you're talking
about connection and you'rebuilding retreats, what is kind
of the ratio?
I've heard Chase Warrington talka lot about this would do as far
as how they plan their retreatsand what their intent is.
So with your executive offsites,obviously, you know, people come
(11:20):
in with their own perceptions ofwhat they want to happen.
But for remote companies andhybrid companies or distributed
companies that are not workingtogether on site all the time,
what is kind of your suggestedadvice to, companies as far as
how much time they want toallocate to get work done and
(11:42):
then how much time.
They should allocate for fun.
And then maybe how much timethey should also allocate for no
schedule at all.
Nothing planned at all.
Free time.
What are your thoughts on on,on, on the makeup?
Kendal (11:56):
It's interesting, I saw Chase and we had a discussion
around this at the RunningRemote Conference and like,
Chase gave this wholepresentation about the structure
he uses and to be perfectlyhonest, he has a little bit more
free time than me, built in tohis retreats that he organizes.
Like, I think, I forget theexact breakdown, but it was
(12:18):
something like 50 percent freetime or something.
It was pretty substantial, Iforget the exact one.
Rick (12:24):
Typical rich guy.
Kendal (12:26):
Well, Well, here's,
Kaleem (12:30):
He's not really
Kendal (12:31):
what's fu
Rick (12:33):
It's a long standing joke.
Kaleem (12:35):
he was on the show.
We love chase.
He was on the show in his name.
His name sounds rich.
Rich.
Hello.
I'm Chase Warrington.
He was like one of his coachesin high school used to give him
so much shit.
Yeah.
Kendal (12:47):
Like.
Yeah,
Kaleem (12:52):
horse.
Yeah, he does put in a lot offree time and a lot more than
most people, which is it'sinteresting concept.
Their
Kendal (13:03):
so the thing that I've noticed, if left for their own
devices, and I saw this, Iexperienced this, right, if left
for their own devices with thedowntime and the free time and
the dinners, you know, peopletend to gravitate towards like
the people they know on theteam, their little clicks.
Um, and, it never moved theneedle on the communication
(13:26):
challenges that actually neededto take place, like, at this in
person time.
And what was so funny at theconference is, there's this
professor from Harvard.
I forget his name, but he gave apresentation that validated this
exact concept with data showingthat, when you kind of have,
bring these in person gettogethers, you know, people tend
(13:47):
to gravitate towards theirethnic groups.
That was like some of hisfindings.
And like, the people that aremost like them.
Kaleem (13:53):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like why do all the black kidssit at the table?
Yeah.
It's a book.
Sorry.
The context.
That's a famous book.
It's a famous book that talksabout that research.
Like, why do all the black kidssit at the table?
It's like, it's a famous book.
Sorry.
Kendal (14:07):
Yeah, no, it's all good.
And like, I think back to when Iwas at Facebook, being on the
travel ads team, and that, itwas, it's interesting, because,
overall, diversity, like,Facebook was a very, diverse
company to work for, but it wasinteresting, too, how certain
teams were more ethnically,like, stacked in some ways.
For example, this, there wasthis team of 50, and it was
(14:29):
probably 40 people that wereChinese.
Like, it was just veryinteresting.
And so that was an experiencefor me, too, to be at the lunch
table for that particular team,and people were speaking
Chinese.
Um, anyway, I had a follow upconversation with this professor
and I was just like, do you feelthat facilitation and especially
(14:50):
like when it's intentional rightso we're like creating these
intentional in personopportunities to break down
barriers to create crossfunctional collaboration so you
can't kind of be like, in myview, right, and this is where I
differ from others it's like, Inmy view, you can't kind of like
leave that to chance.
Like,
Kaleem (15:09):
No.
Kendal (15:10):
just hope that those conversations are going to
happen.
Like that, in my experience,hasn't really worked versus, of
course you need downtime forsure.
But I try to facilitate the typeof conversation that I know is
going to like fix some of thosecommunication challenges and get
people to interact with peoplethey wouldn't normally.
Kaleem (15:31):
so does your thing vary?
Like, basically, you don't havea prescriptive percentage of how
much time that are scheduled,how much time is for fun.
so it just kind of, varies basedon
Kendal (15:40):
Yeah, to be honest with you, I would say maybe like 20
percent is more the free time.
So that's where I'll, I'm,that's a big gap between
probably, I forget if Chase is50 or not, but yeah, and 20 and
so there's definitely somedowntime, but, um, yeah.
Kaleem (15:56):
how much work and how much fun?
Kendal (15:57):
it's really based on three different areas.
One is focusing on the teamdynamics.
One is having you as having fun.
Let's have fun, and, but let'snot let it be a checkbox of
like, cool, we did an escaperoom.
Let's have fun, and maybe, sure,we'll design an activity that
mimics the way people operate,and then we have a rich debrief
afterwards.
(16:18):
The second is like somethingunique that's actually brings
kind of awe, Because the levelof awe can actually create, does
something in the brain where itjust creates a memorable event.
And then the third aspect iscreating that team alignment.
So I really try to create abalance between those three, but
like all of my events willalways have those three
components and then depending onwhat the team needs to achieve.
(16:41):
get out of the event, like toget that ROI from, you know, the
C suite for the investment andthe time, then, there's, yes,
there can be a substantial focuson some of the in person, uh,
the alignment.
So that third aspect.
So I just try to create at leasta, on a three day event though,
at least a day and a half of thefirst two.
(17:01):
And you know, one of thestructures too that helps is to
have like a head heartexercises, head heart break.
So you don't want to have peopletoo intellectually stimulated
and then they drone on and onand it's whoa, I just, I need a
shift, you know what I mean?
So it's all learning frommentors and learning from and
books and also experience tocreate that stimulation,
(17:23):
breaking it up.
Rick (17:24):
I love it.
Kaleem (17:25):
Head heart.
That's great.
I like that.
Head heart.
Head heart.
Rick (17:28):
So, earlier, I'm assuming it was earlier in your career,
uh, you were exposed to customerservice, um, customer experience
rather, in the travel cruiseindustry, is that correct?
Kendal (17:40):
I, it was actually Park Jockey.
So Park Jockey was a company Iworked for which was, um, an app
for paying for your parkingonline as a tech startup.
Rick (17:49):
Walk me through the transition from customer
experience to user experience atFacebook.
Kendal (17:54):
Yeah, totally.
Great question.
Thank you.
So, basically I was at thisbootstrapped, You know, tech
startup, park jockey, and it wastricky.
It was hard times.
You know, I saw people, peoplecome in and I saw those bigger
more well paid people kind of,that those budgets get cut and
they leave and that was tricky.
(18:15):
But in my role as head ofcustomer experience, I also saw
inquiries.
I was in charge of customersupport and then working with
our CTO to, basically alleviate,some of the patterns that I saw
come in tickets.
Because the support tickets,obviously, there's a lot of the
same tickets that come in.
And once I saw that, like, thesame questions were happening,
(18:36):
and we could actually do thingsin, from a UX perspective, if I
knew how to do that, like, withcolors, with designing the site,
designing the app accordingly,we could really minimize the
number of, inquiries we got andreally create a lot of cost
savings for the company.
So I saw that UX was really theway to go for me at that time.
(18:58):
And so that's where I reallymade the decision, okay, I need
to get the best training outthere for how to do UX.
And so that's where I, I enteredthis training program at
Facebook at the time.
And it was great experience toget that training.
Kaleem (19:13):
What do you think was actually the biggest difference
between like just customerexperience and then user
experience?
I know like a lot of times userexperience, people are
graphically inclined, um, formerdesigners.
I know a lot of people get intoUX experience that are
designers.
So do you have a designbackground or were you coming
from more of, I did a lot ofcustomer experience.
User experience is, You know,customers are users a lot of
(19:36):
times.
So there is a lot ofsimilarities, but what were the
big similarities, but then whatwere the big differences?
We'll be right back after thesewords.
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Alright, well that's a bit much,but for you, I'll do it.
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(21:48):
And now, back to the show.
Kendal (21:49):
Yeah, that's a great question.
When I decided that UX was mypath, I did not come from a
graphic design background.
That's where a lot of UXdesigners come in.
And once I noticed that thereare, at bigger companies,
there's a split between UXresearch and UX design.
Smaller companies, it's kind ofthe UX designers are all
encompassing and there areThey're supposed to do their own
(22:12):
research, which they may or maynot have capacity to do.
But in these larger companies,the roles are split.
And so I saw my skills as apeople person, as an
interviewer, as getting peopleto, you know, feel safe enough
with me to really reveal howthey actually felt about the
app.
Even if it was like a level ofhatred that, Yeah, they felt I,
(22:36):
that was more where my skillslaid.
So, that's where I looked foropportunities to, to do UX
research.
And I think the differencesthere are, I mean, it's really
very different.
So in, in customer experience,it was all around, yeah,
managing customer support, youknow, really, liaising with
(22:57):
customers the tech team toprevent inquiries, to really
have that customer experience bea positive one, all the way from
working with operators to likethe actual experience on the
web, but the, to the delivery ofthe product and versus, UX
research was really about, youknow, creating studies and
having these methods at myfingertip of doing surveys and
(23:22):
in depth interviews, and focusgroups, and, all these different
methodologies to basically getat the root cause of why we
weren't seeing, certainengagement on a certain thing.
Rick (23:35):
Hmm.
Kendal (23:35):
yeah, I love all this inquiry on this stuff.
I haven't talked about thisstuff in like forever.
Kaleem (23:40):
I'm a fake designer.
So I was just curious.
I was like, yeah, how did youjust teach yourself how to be a
designer?
And you're like, no, theyactually split it.
So user
Kendal (23:48):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But I hustled, you know, that'sthe thing, Kaleem, I've been a
hustler, like, so I, there wasthis program to learn, once I
figured out that I wanted tomake that transition at that
time between customer experienceand UX, and I didn't even know
the difference in the splitbetween research and design, I
(24:09):
reached out to this program headof this program to learn UX
research and design, and I said,hey, can I take your course for
free if I fill it?
And so I just, yeah, I barteredmy way into it, you know, and
then, and it's just so funnybecause too, like even getting
the job at Facebook, it was ahustle, you know, it's always
(24:30):
kind of really just like work inthe game to make things happen.
Kaleem (24:34):
Congratulations.
Kendal (24:35):
and now I use those UX research skills, which is really
cool in like designing what theoffsites are going to be for the
team experiences, or even ifit's not just off sites, like
I'm getting into coachingspecifically and it's around,
it's utilizing those skills fromUX research to do the surveys
like make sure we're monitoringmetrics to see the, yeah.
(25:00):
the pre and the post to see theimpact as well as like the in
depth interviews.
And again, it's relying on thatskill set of making people feel
safe, to be honest.
And I think that's something toothat like managers can do more
effectively.
I've seen like, you know, isreally being able to come with a
like almost like an embodimentto those that they manage that
(25:22):
allows for open dialoguecommunication.
Rick (25:26):
Hmm.
So, I did have an additionalquestion about your Facebook
experience.
And I'm wondering, was there amoment where you were just like,
I'm gonna leave this place andbegin travel adventures.
And this is what I want to doinstead of working at Facebook,
you know.
Was there something like thatthat occurred?
Or was it just something organicthat continued to build?
Oh,
Kendal (25:47):
something that happened.
Kaleem (25:49):
leap of faith though, you know?
Kendal (25:50):
Yeah, well, it was more like a big leap of faith being
forced out the door.
I mean, I was fired for notbeing a good teammate.
No! It's all good.
Rick (26:03):
Okay, good,
Kaleem (26:04):
this is part of the story.
Kendal (26:05):
this is part of the story.
This is what set me on thispath.
Um,
Rick (26:09):
Do
Kendal (26:12):
You know, when something like that happens, you get fired
for not being a good teammate,you know, take a hard look at
yourself.
And there's definitely stuff tobe responsible for in my, well,
this is, this you guys might geta kick out of, but in my
behavior of, um, I'll just beperfectly candid with you.
(26:33):
There was another, you know,very like high powered woman on
the team I was on.
And.
It seemed like no matter what,she wouldn't listen to me.
Like, only, my research had tosupport exactly what she wanted
with her direction.
And it's like, every time, I waslike, sorry, my research is not
showing that your direction'sworking.
(26:54):
Um, that did not go over well.
And it really triggered me andreally bothered me.
And then I looked at it, andthough, I was asked the
question, where in your life didsomeone make you not feel heard
or seen and just it was her wayor the highway?
And I was like, oh my god, isthis all to do with my mother?
(27:17):
And it's the truth.
It's true.
It's totally the truth.
I was bringing unhealed mom shitinto the workplace, you know?
And like, think about how often,like, the funny thing about that
though, is That set me on thispath to then study, do the
continuing studies program atthe Bowen Center for Family.
(27:38):
Understanding how the way inwhich we're brought up in the
families of origin and in thefamilies we create actually
impacts how we operate in theworkplace.
yeah, it set me on this path tounderstand, like, from a
psychological point of view,like why we operate the way we
(27:59):
do.
And then at the same time ithad, it showed me that even
though at a company like that,where there were so many
investments in millions ofdollars being spent in, in like
bringing the team together,that, in my case, sure it was
being, getting fired, but inothers there was a lot of team
(28:19):
switching and things of thatnature.
And it's like, Why are we notmaking investments on moving the
needle on Joe and Bob workingbetter together two weeks from
now?
Like, that just doesn't makesense to me.
It doesn't make sense to me tohave a communication class and
then not have the people thatyou work directly with in the
class.
(28:39):
They're just missedopportunities there to create
that psychological safety that'sso important.
So that's why I'm on thismission, to really create that.
And that, and it's come from apersonal place, you know,
because
Kaleem (28:51):
You can tell, you can tell.
Kendal (28:53):
Oh,
Kaleem (28:54):
Well, no, I mean, just, you tell them the story.
It's it hits really close thehome with me because I was in a
very similar situation and nowthe path is completely
different.
And I had to do my ownreflection and to hear the words
that you said, I was fired fornot being a good teammate.
I mean, that hurts any humanbeing.
And the fact that you had thewherewithal to say, Hey, wait,
(29:18):
yes, there was some shit thatwas happening that I didn't
agree with, but this shit's onme and now you're building
retreats in Hawaii and all overthe world to bring companies
together.
I'm getting emotional.
I'm getting emotional.
So thank you for sharing that.
Um, and.
(29:38):
No, I got some here.
I got some here, but it's, it's,you know, these are the stories,
man, that we're, that's why westarted this podcast, man.
And, um, that's what this isabout.
And if you can't hear some ofthese stories and get emotional
and see what they're doing, andwe were talking about, you're
working with some greatcompanies to be able to just
say, Hey, look, I need to dothis.
Kudos to you.
I just want to say thank you forsharing.
(29:59):
And it was, it was awesome.
Yeah.
Kendal (30:03):
The truth is, is that if you don't create, if you don't
create functional teams, like,your actual livelihood can be
impacted.
And it's like, that's what's atstake.
And also your happiness.
Your enjoyment of life.
You know, like, we're not tryingto be like slaves to our jobs
here with no purpose in life.
(30:24):
Like, some might be fine withthat, but I'm not really.
And, um,
Kaleem (30:29):
most people are not.
Kendal (30:30):
Yeah,
Rick (30:31):
they just accept it.
Kendal (30:32):
yeah, and I think we spend so much time with people
we work with that it's like, whywould we not try and have the
best relationships possible whenwe know that meaningful
professional relationships arewhat create people to enjoy
where they work?
Kaleem (30:48):
Mmm
Kendal (30:49):
it seems counterintuitive.
Kaleem (30:50):
so many great nuggets in this whole interview, so
Rick (30:54):
Oh yeah.
Kaleem (30:55):
been great
Rick (30:55):
Yeah, I mean, so we, segwaying back into my previous
question about retreats, whichwe've talked about at length
already, but most remotecompanies are investing in these
retreats nowadays, so where doyou think remote work is heading
and
Kendal (31:09):
yeah, yeah, thank you.
Well, at the Running RemoteConference, it was certainly put
on over and over by all thekeynotes that it ain't going
away and that it is here
Kaleem (31:21):
Not
Kendal (31:22):
stay.
And,
Kaleem (31:24):
a good rap line.
Oh
Kendal (31:26):
yeah, Annie, Annie Dean at Atlassian actually has a
really good report that talkedabout the future of work, not
going away.
And I truly believe that.
The interesting part about it,as I live here in Hawaii, you
know, and I'm able to, you know,run on the beach in the morning
(31:46):
and go surfing in the afternoon,like, I'm going to create a life
where I can still do that here.
And I think we've all gotten ataste of it, you know, at least,
and I think, One of the thingsthat's kind of known too is this
legacy kind of attachment to theoffice, is also the people who
are more likely to be attachedto the office.
(32:07):
Number one, I've been there along time, like, that's their
careers.
There's a loss of identitythere.
That is like, oh, if I have togive this up, like, who am I?
You know, that's attached totheir identity, their work
identity.
So, I think with that generationretiring, I think that
attachment will, for lack of abetter word, die off.
(32:27):
but these investments in inperson time, like, being very
necessary, especially for newgraduate, who need that
socialization of how to work inthe workplace.
Like, that stuff doesn'tnecessarily need to take place
in an office.
It can take place, you know, atreally meaningful in person
experiences every three months.
(32:50):
I don't see it going away, toanswer your question, Rick.
Kaleem (32:53):
You hear that folks?
It ain't going away.
Rick (32:55):
You heard it here, see?
Kaleem (32:58):
Stop tripping.
Stop tripping.
Damn it.
Kendal (33:00):
doll?
What's your problem?
Kaleem (33:02):
Keep going.
That
Rick (33:09):
Remote work is here to stay, see?
Kendal (33:12):
As you wear a paperboy cap.
Rick (33:15):
do! I do! That's why I wear it! Read all about it!
Kaleem (33:24):
is so
Rick (33:25):
That is amazing.
Kaleem (33:27):
come on, dawg.
Come on, dawg.
Rick (33:29):
We're gonna take you up to see the big cheese.
I
Kendal (33:37):
So
Rick (33:37):
was born in a different time.
I don't belong here.
Kaleem (33:39):
I love it.
I love.
Yes, you do, Rick.
And we need people that respecthistory and can recite these
lines.
And because
Kendal (33:46):
Yeah.
Kaleem (33:46):
don't understand, you know?
Kendal (33:49):
It's so
Kaleem (33:49):
man.
Kendal (33:50):
I think that's like 30s, right?
That's like 30s.
Rick (33:53):
20s, 30s, somewhere around there.
Yeah,
Kaleem (33:55):
Like Dick Tracy type shit.
Rick (33:57):
yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, uh, Kendall, can you sharewith us a comical or inspiring
moment you had while workingremotely?
Kendal (34:05):
Yes.
I can give you, um, yes, Iabsolutely can.
Kaleem (34:10):
Okay.
Now, Now, now, be sure to set itup.
Give us
Kendal (34:13):
Yeah.
Well, I kind of have
Kaleem (34:15):
geeked up.
Kendal (34:16):
four.
Rick (34:17):
Okay!
Kendal (34:18):
They're not, very long.
Kaleem (34:19):
Okay.
We're here for him.
Kendal (34:20):
okay.
Kaleem (34:21):
Start with the worst one first and move up.
Let's see.
Let's let's migrate towards it.
Kendal (34:25):
Okay.
Okay.
So, so here's, here's, here'sthe truth.
Is that at the end of 2020, Ispent a month working in Hawaii
and then I.
So I went pretty muchimmediately to Costa Rica and
spent a month working remotelythere.
And they were, because I wastrying to surf both places, and
(34:46):
they were like night and dayexperiences.
So I had this meeting, and atone point in time, the biggest
challenge about Costa Rica wasthe Wi Fi.
So I, at one point in time, Oneof my meetings, I literally
ended up in the reception areaof a, like, hotel, like, on the
(35:10):
floor.
The, the, the receptionistthere, like, to my left, and I
just remember sitting on this,like, cold tile floor, trying
to, like, be in this meeting,and just being like, this is
absurd, like, I need better WiFi.
Also, Then I gave a presentationand I was like, okay, this, I
(35:34):
need, I'm going to go to thebest wifi in town.
All right.
I found my fiber optic and Iwent there for the presentation
and, you know, okay.
Made every arrangement for it towork.
However, didn't think about thefact that the wind could take
out all of the electricity inthe town.
(35:54):
So then I'm like, okay.
Delayed getting on for this likepresentation in front of 200
people.
Like it was my moment.
And I'm like, I'm like too, too,you know, I, yeah, it was a, it
was a tricky one.
Those were not great experienceswith, having Wi Fi and, and
working remotely.
However, then I'll contrastthose experiences with two
(36:19):
moments where I'm on Zoom callsin Hawaii.
The first is, I'm really tryingto comport myself.
It's my first time experiencingthese big waves.
And I'm like looking at myscreen and in the background are
these massive waves.
Cause we had this huge swell.
And it's just like a 20 footwave.
And I'm like trying to keep mycomposure.
(36:40):
And in the background there'slike this just full on show for
Mother Nature.
Just being like, Yeah! And itwas a similar thing during whale
season, where I'm like, again,on a Zoom call trying to keep my
composure, and then there's thishumpback whale just like, using
the entire background to keepjust breaching and breaching.
(37:01):
And I mean, that was justabsolutely spectacular.
And it was just like a, cause itwas like a, it was like a moment
between me, and the whale, andthe universe, and like nobody
knew about it.
You know?
Kaleem (37:13):
So you kept your cool and you were able to keep
everything going and no oneknew.
But like, as you're sittingthere on your computer, like,
did you get nervous and shit?
Like you picked up your computerand started walking back when
the waves were coming in.
Like, Oh snap, that wave is waytoo close.
That wave is way too close.
Kendal (37:29):
no.
I was looking out the window.
I was at a table.
So, I was
Rick (37:33):
Okay.
Kaleem (37:33):
like, Oh shit.
You started running.
Kendal (37:35):
No, No, just had to
Rick (37:36):
Feeling nervous!
Kendal (37:38):
You know?
Yeah.
Kaleem (37:40):
That is pretty cool.
That is pretty cool.
Rick (37:42):
That is amazing.
So, where can our listeners andviewers find you?
Kendal (37:45):
Yeah, so you guys can reach me at Kendall, with two
L's, by the way, K E N D A L L,at executiveoffsites.
com.
or you can reach out to me atcorporate offsites is the
Instagram or www.
executiveoffsites.
com and I do a free 30 minuteconsult for anybody who wants
(38:06):
some strategic advice oncreating their offsite or their
in person get together, or quitefrankly, even if they're not
ready for that, just how theycan build trust among their
team.
And I will say There's actuallytwo things that I'm kind of
piloting at the moment because Ifeel so confident that I can add
value here.
So the first is I am doing astudy this summer where I,
(38:30):
because data is so important,between a control group of
offsites, like planned, youknow, kind of a normal way
versus, you know, kind of havingmy, take in my method on the
offsites.
And I'm really looking for teamsthat are struggling with their
team connection or trust, tobasically crown some, one team
(38:52):
at the end of the summer themost improved team.
And I am willing to offer theman offsite for free for this
study, where it's, yeah, whereit's, Pay me what you think it's
worth when I really vastlyimprove, uh, your team's
dynamic.
Kaleem (39:09):
there.
in Hawaii and we'll,
Kendal (39:10):
Ha
Rick (39:10):
your invitation.
Kaleem (39:11):
your challenge.
We accept your invitation, Rick.
We will be there.
We're going to, we're going torecord live from Hawaii.
Um, executive offsites.
com
Kendal (39:21):
Love
Kaleem (39:21):
one.
We'll be there.
So
Kendal (39:22):
it.
You're so welcome.
Yeah, well
Rick (39:24):
Yeah.
Kendal (39:25):
off sites obviously too, in Hawaii or Elsewhere.
Rick (39:28):
No, we're only interested in Hawaii.
I'm sorry.
Kendal (39:30):
Okay, alright.
Okay.
The other thing I just want toplug real quick is just that the
other kind of opportunity isgive me two people who don't get
along on a team one day togetherand guarantee that by the end of
the day they will be workingwell together.
Kaleem (39:50):
Well, you heard it here.
Guaranteed Kendall.
Thank you so much for coming onthe show.
We appreciate it.
Can't wait to, you know, hang 10on some of those waves, dude.
Brody.
Rick (40:02):
Jeez.
Kendal (40:03):
ha ha
Kaleem (40:04):
wait.
I've seen Point Break.
I've seen I've seen,
Rick (40:08):
Yeah,
Kaleem (40:08):
I've seen Point Break, bro.
Rick (40:11):
okay.
Kaleem (40:11):
thank you so much.
Rick (40:12):
Kendall, you are a sport.
Thanks for tolerating us.
Kendal (40:15):
Aw, thank you guys for having me.
It's been a treat.
Kaleem (40:18):
We'll talk to you later.
Peace.
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