Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Rick (00:00):
Okay.
So what is a one wheel?
Frick (00:02):
Electric skateboards,
electric skateboards.
Rick (00:04):
Okay,
Frick (00:05):
so I have a Boosted
Board, which is an electric
skateboard, which is a CaseyNeistat rides, but it's got four
hard wheels.
Then I graduated to a one wheel,which is a big fat six inch by,
it's like that thick, a single
Kaleem (00:19):
Are you a Grateful Dead
fan?
Frick (00:20):
A, not a giant Grateful
Dead fan, but I do watch a
Kaleem (00:23):
I, were you, did you
travel with fish?
Frick (00:25):
I did not travel with
fish.
No, I'm more of a reggae guy.
I'm, you know, I got the Marleyin the
Kaleem (00:30):
I mean, I wasn't far off
Frick (00:33):
Ha
Kaleem (00:33):
I was in there
somewhere.
I can see you rolling around ona one wheel with, with white man
dreads.
You know how they're different.
You know, they're
Frick (00:42):
I'll tell you what sealed
the deal is watching Jesse out
at Burning Man first year.
He was out there.
So I also have a super 73 ebike, which are fun.
And then I got the 1 wheel.
Then my son rides the what arecalled E C's, which are the
electronic unicycles.
So they're the bigger wheel thatgoes between your legs.
(01:02):
You go forward instead of 1wheel.
You stand sideways more likesurfboard style.
Kaleem (01:08):
Okay.
Okay.
Frick (01:09):
So I've got 20, 000 miles
on my e vehicles.
I have 11, 000 miles on my onewheel.
Rick (01:14):
Holy cow.
That's a lot of travel.
Frick (01:18):
lot of travel.
Rick (01:25):
Welcome back everybody to
remotely one.
I'm your co host, Rick Haneyjoined by my Esteemed colleague,
Kaleem Clarkson.
What's going on, my man?
Kaleem (01:34):
Oh, nothing.
Just doing a little chickendance for today's guest, baby.
Oh, I'm psyched.
Rick (01:38):
y'all geeked up, right?
You're all geeked up?
Oh,
Kaleem (01:42):
know, I mean, that
Rick (01:44):
that's good.
That's good.
Hey everybody.
Welcome back.
Since you know how to find us,do us a huge favor.
Go to RateThisPodcast.
com forward slash RemotelyOneand just leave us a review.
That's all we ask.
Again, RateThisPodcast.
com forward slash RemotelyOne Ifyou could do that for us, we
(02:04):
would be ever so grateful.
Since 2015, RemotelyOne is oneof the largest communities of
remote work professionals.
With over 3, 000 Slack membersand 5, 000 email subscribers.
Holy shit, we are making the bigtime.
We are making the big time.
It's free to join.
(02:24):
It's Well, it's not as good as a5 footlong, but it's getting up
there.
Kaleem (02:29):
Okay?
okay, okay
Rick (02:30):
It is free to join,
however.
Don't cost nothing.
So, check it out at RemotelyOne.
com.
And with that out of the way,Kaleem.
My brother from another mother.
Please give us a tease or twoabout today's guest.
Kaleem (02:45):
Yes, sir.
Rick.
I mean today what we try to dois try to find somebody that
does something better than us inthe same space.
Okay, Rick.
Rick (02:53):
We're about to get learnt
Kaleem (02:55):
We're about to get
learnt.
Okay, our guest Rick.
Okay, they grew up in the otherPortland first off the other
Portland.
Okay,
Rick (03:04):
yeah
Kaleem (03:05):
not Portland main
listeners, Portland, Oregon.
Okay.
Rick (03:09):
That's okay, we'll forgive
him we'll forgive him was out of
his control.
Kaleem (03:13):
Out of their control.
That's true.
You're right.
You're right.
Uh, they currently reside inPalo Alto.
A.
K.
A.
Tepe.
You know, halfway in between.
Um.
They're a graduate of You readyfor this, sir?
Oh.
No.
Not indeed.
That's a, that's a website.
Rick (03:33):
indeed I am ready go with
it
Kaleem (03:35):
Damn son, you're getting
all proper.
I mean you're
Rick (03:37):
Stupid ass.
Kaleem (03:40):
Stupid ass mofo the
Frick's going on here
Rick (03:43):
Jeez!
Kaleem (03:46):
They graduated from the
Wharton School of Business,
right the Wharton School ofBusiness That's a big deal.
Yeah.
Yeah, so I guess they know someshits
Rick (03:56):
Yes, we're gonna get into
that.
Kaleem (03:58):
Yeah.
Uh, I guess they started theirprofessional career at
Mitsubishi.
Then they,
Rick (04:05):
the car.
Kaleem (04:07):
I think so.
Is there another Mitsubishi?
Oh, they also make electronicsand stuff too.
Rick (04:11):
Indeed they do.
Indeed they do.
Kaleem (04:14):
Guess, do they also make
electronics?
Frick (04:17):
Yes, they do.
Kaleem (04:19):
Listen to that, bro.
Did you
Rick (04:21):
Not enough hose and
smooth.
Kaleem (04:22):
Holy shit.
What are we doing?
Yeah, baby.
Okay.
They then went on to work forthis little company.
You may have heard of.
Um, Intel, hmm, just a company,just a
Rick (04:35):
That's like computers and
stuff.
Kaleem (04:37):
Yup.
Yup.
The chips.
Yeehaw.
Uh, then they went, they went onto create a couple of different
startups, a couple of differentmedia companies.
A little note about our gueststoday, Rick, they've love
personal electronic vehicles,AKA P E Vs,
Rick (04:57):
The pevs.
Kaleem (04:58):
the pevs.
And if you're on the Around PaloAlto hanging out.
Okay.
You might see this personrolling around on a skateboard,
jamming some bar Marley, alittle sublime through his
Marley speaker on a big assskateboard with one wheel.
That's right.
Our guests loves to roll aroundon one of those big ass
(05:20):
skateboards with those huge asswheels.
It's hilarious.
It's awesome.
Rick (05:24):
I love it.
Kaleem (05:25):
Yeah, it's great.
Rick, our guest is the host ofturn the lens podcast and work
20 X, X podcasts on the futureof work, listeners and viewers.
Please give a warm welcome toJoe.
(05:51):
Let's go, Jeff! Let's go! Woo!Woo! Settle
Frick (05:56):
up.
Kaleem (05:57):
Settle down, audience!
Quiet down!
Rick (06:01):
Let's allow Kaleem to come
up for air.
Frick (06:04):
Thank you, Thank you.
That was terrific.
I'm all tired Out and I'm readyto go.
Well, I have to go punchsomething.
I don't know which it is.
Kaleem (06:10):
Let's go! Run through a
wall, baby! Run right through
our wood paneling!
Frick (06:15):
And congrats on those
numbers that you went through,
Rick.
That's a great year.
Your email subscribers and yourslack channel.
You guys are kicking tail.
Rick (06:23):
man, it has been an
experience and you know, we
couldn't have done this withoutpeople like you joining us every
now and again, lending yourinsights, shouting us out on
social media.
Thank you for that the otherday, by the way.
Frick (06:34):
Of course, of course.
Well, there's no, there's nosecret, right?
You just got to do the hard workover a long period of time.
And there's, you know, there'sno bend in the curve.
It's a slow, slow and steadyturtle kind of race.
Rick (06:44):
That's it.
That's it, man.
You know, since we're talking ofengagement, my first question
kind of delves into that alittle bit.
You know, the very first word onyour LinkedIn profile is the
word engagement.
I don't know if you knew that,but it is.
So my question for you is inyour own words, how do you
define that?
(07:04):
And why is it so important intoday's digital world?
Frick (07:08):
I think people confuse
reach and engagement.
And so I think you can't speakof one without speaking to the
other.
So, all of us post and we getreally excited when we see
numbers, right?
How many people viewed it, howfar did it go, et cetera, et
cetera.
And people chase the reachnumber, but here's the dirty
little secret.
If you really want a big reachnumber, just buy an ad.
You can actually buy, you canbuy all the reach that you want,
(07:31):
right?
And if you think back to the oldbroadcast model of media, it was
about a broad broadcast.
And you hope that, you know, youhappen to be in the car in the
market for a mattress when theyplay that ad on the AM radio
station.
Station that plays every day.
Not only the days that you'reinterested in buying a mattress.
What's different today is nowit's it's direct engagement.
(07:51):
You can actually connectdirectly as a media company with
your audience because if theycomment, if they give you a
thumbs up, if they reshare theirsignaling with the media, Their
self that I'm in.
I like this content.
I have a similar opinion.
I'm engaged in this topic, etcetera.
So you can actually see thepeople who you're engaging with.
(08:12):
So to me, I think it's much moreof a narrow cast, uh, to go
after the people that areengaged in those topics versus
this huge broadcast where youhave this small conversion
number.
So rather than chase, theimpressions, and if you want
impressions, again, you cancheat, you can buy them.
It's called an ad, and they'llput your, they'll put your
widget in an ad and they'll takeit and place it as many times as
(08:33):
you want to pay.
If you want actual engagementwith people that are interested
in the topic that you're talkingabout, that just takes time,
effort, and work.
There's no real shortcut to findthose people, to engage with
those people, to get involved inthat community to talk on what's
happening to that community, tocontribute to other people's
conversations, to really engagelike a person, as opposed to a
(08:55):
bot or, you know, a wall full ofphones with Sims that somebody's
just saying, you know, reach,reach, reach, reach, reach.
Kaleem (09:01):
Yeah.
Yeah, engagement.
Wow, I never thought of that.
Hey, if you want to, if you wantto reach people, just go ahead
and buy that.
I mean, damn, it's as simple asthat.
And ads are way better.
And ads are way better todaythan they ever were, right?
I
Rick (09:14):
yeah, well, you know, and
I think that's kind of it's a
double edged sword because theybuy the ad and I'm gonna see it
whether or not I want to right Ifeel like social media, you
know, they're all bombarded withads and really you got to tell
the algorithm I don't want tosee this stuff, but it if it
(09:35):
resonates with you, all yougotta do is click, click, click,
and then all of a sudden youstart seeing less of the
advertisements and more and moreof the stuff that resonates with
you.
Impactful
Frick (09:49):
reach and you're going to
get more engagement.
If you're, if, if you do buythat ad and of the million
people that see it, you know, 16people decide that they want to
join the club.
It's just, is that, is that agreat investment of time and
what's the yield on that?
And if you look at historical,you know, kind of engagement
percentages or conversionpercentages, pick your favorite
media.
(10:09):
Yeah.
Email campaigns, whatever,right?
It was always infinitesimallysmall.
What's different about it todayis I can actually go find the
people, right?
If I want to reach out to Rick,because Rick's got a cool
podcast on the feature of work,and I like what he says, I like
his guests.
I can actually contact you.
And I can actually commentdirectly on their stuff and you
can comment back, right?
That wasn't the way you could docall in radio, but you couldn't
(10:32):
comment on a television show.
You couldn't really engage withthe audience, say, around, say,
ESPN game day.
That comes to Georgia Tech onSaturday morning.
He's got all the kids out therescreaming.
The only people engaged in thatconversation are the four guys
up on the set and the kids get ascream and have a sign.
That's a very different kind ofmodel to what we have today,
(10:52):
where you can actually talkdirectly with the people that
are in your community.
It's funny when I talk toauthors and TV people, you know,
that is such a different thingthat they couldn't do before.
They couldn't touch theiraudience and the audience
couldn't really touch them.
Kaleem (11:07):
you know, speaking of
like just this idea of
conversation, you're out in theWest Coast, you're in the Bay
Area.
You're kind of doing some ofthe, I don't want to say
typical, but you're doing thenormal job thing.
And then you, you kind of decideat some point, you know, one
thing we didn't mention that youhad a long time, running show of
the cube.
(11:28):
Can you.
Can you just talk about like,how did you decide making the
transition to having interestingconversations?
Like you can see that that was adramatic shift and, you know, I
don't know if it was intentionalor if it was by accident, how
did you kind of change?
And everyone's in tech outthere.
(11:49):
You know, everyone's all abouttech.
I need to be a coder.
I need to code.
I need to do this.
I need to be a sales person,either hustle.
But you went in like a differentdirection and you started having
conversations.
was the motivation for that?
Yeah.
Frick (12:04):
Yeah, truth be told,
after the 2000 crash, which was
not very fun, and there weresome nuclear winters out here,
and then, you know, the 2008crash, there were some tough
times trying to figure out whatto do, and I tried a lot of
different things that worked anddidn't work, but when I came
across the cube, a friend ofmine was running it, and I went
and visited one of theirproductions, and I just thought,
(12:24):
you know, this is so cool, mostpeople never get the chance to
talk in a professional settingand tell their story.
And again, you guys have been inthis podcast business.
I mean, this didn't existbefore.
This wasn't available for peopleto have this, you know,
professional, semi professional,whatever degree of professional
you want to say, but to actuallytell their stories in a well lit
environment when they're readyfor it, they're prepared.
(12:47):
And I saw that and I said, youknow, there's something there
because everybody has a story totell.
It's not necessarily a hugestory, but everybody has some
story to tell.
And that's how I got involvedwith the cube.
And then through that process,and I was there for eight years,
we did over 10, 000 interviews.
We would do one or two events aweek.
Most of it, we would do kind oflike ESPN game day, go to a tech
conference.
(13:08):
Set up a live mobile TV studioand interview people all day
long.
So, CNBC and John Fort might bethere and you know, the big
wheels.
And they would get Andy chassisfor five minutes and send it
back to New York and thenthey're done.
We'd be there for three dayswith three sets, 12 interviews
per day per set.
And just cranking interviews.
(13:29):
So just through repetition andprocess, you really start to
learn things like, it's veryhard to read a script and make
it sound natural.
That's why they pay actors a lotof money.
It's very easy to have aconversation about something
that you're both passionateabout and knowledgeable about.
(13:49):
So the trick is, and it's kindof like the future of work
conversation, where, you know,create the conditions for people
to do their best.
And so in an interview format,if you just sit down with people
and don't have hard questions,but you have conversations, you
guys know this, people relax,and they can talk about stuff
that they're interested in,that's easy.
I always tell people, justimagine you're on the back porch
(14:11):
with your uncle on a Thursday atfour, drinking whatever you like
to drink a Thursday at four.
And telling them about thisthing that you're so excited
about.
And so that's, um, a big pieceof the learning.
Another huge piece of thelearning is that in video, and
I've been in video forever film,all the kids, sports and dance
and everything, but the trickwith video is always, how do you
(14:33):
find the best part?
If the best part of the video is10 minutes into a 60 minute
asset.
Kaleem (14:39):
it's difficult
Frick (14:40):
How do you find it?
Right?
And if I search for an image, Iknow if I found it.
If I search for text, I know ifI found it.
But how do I know if it's inthat nugget, that, that gem is
inside that video?
And really what's changed overthe last several years is
transcripts.
And now you've got this textsearchable way to access, you
(15:00):
know, the library that like youguys have, you have a huge
library.
So if you remember, Oh, that'sright.
I remember Nick said somethingthat perfectly relates to
whatever the buzz is in the newstoday, you'd go back to that
interview, find that clip, pullit out.
You guys are playing with shortsand then pump it into the
stream.
So it's a very different way tothink about video production.
Knowing that you're going to goback and clip it.
(15:22):
And the long form is really.
Just kind of the generator ofthe or, but it isn't necessarily
the gold.
And it's not necessarily thewatch those come after.
Rick (15:32):
Yeah.
Kaleem (15:33):
Yeah, I just wanted to
say Commenting on what you were
just talking about jeff Jeffpulled a clip from one of our
shows rick and it was anabsolute gem and I It went over
our heads and we never even sawit.
I was just like, oh my gosh, howIt's so hard to comb through
that much footage, but I meanit's there so we could do it So
(15:57):
I just wanted to say thank you.
Um,
Frick (15:58):
Yeah, no, you're welcome.
And, and there's a ton of gems,right?
And the other thing is that ifyou are, if you're shooting your
assets, knowing that you'retargeting more evergreen stuff
versus, you know, what's intoday's news or, you know, stock
market, this, that, and theother, then You end up with the
stuff that you can use over andover again because the
conversation stays higher level.
(16:19):
So that was, you know, theprobability that you'll have
some gold back in that libraryis much higher than if you're
talking about, you know, you'rereacting to quarterly earnings
or those types of things.
So you can kind of structureyour conversation that way and
increase the probability thatthat will be there.
The last thing is reallyimportant.
And you guys are small and I'msmall.
Is this really hard to create awave as a small media company?
(16:42):
It's basically impossible.
It's really easy to surf a wavethat somebody else has created.
And so if, if I have this greatlibrary of content and today's
wave is X, and like we said, weknow exactly that Nick Bloom was
on your show or Kate Lister hadthis great quote that exactly
addressed the issue thateverybody's talking about today,
(17:03):
I can go back Lister interview,grab that drop it in today's
stream in today's wave.
And try to get a little bit ofa, of a ride off of that versus
just dropping it on its own as astandalone thing.
That maybe it has no kind ofgravitas on its own.
So that's another trick.
Kaleem (17:24):
Damn.
Rick (17:25):
I'm barely treading water
here.
Kaleem (17:27):
yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like, hey, everybody out here,listen, you got a pod, you got a
media company, please rewindsome of this shit.
Okay.
Rick (17:35):
going to be a keeper for
Kaleem (17:37):
You don't know what the
frick is going on.
You know what I'm saying?
Damn.
Rick (17:41):
it is.
There it is.
Frick (17:43):
Well, it's funny, you
talk about the Boosted Board.
The Boosted Board experiences,what it really did beyond the
fun of writing these things, isit exposed me really to the way
YouTube works.
And YouTube in terms of themedia consumption, YouTube in
terms of shared community,YouTube in terms of
collaboration, YouTube in termsof async consumption.
(18:04):
And that's what really got methinking about the way that all
these things work.
And then this piece that wetalked about, which is really
aligning with the AI in theplatform.
So if you watch social dilemmaon Netflix, scariest movie
you'll ever watch.
But the whole idea is they'retrying to pick which content to
put in this kid's feed to keephim on his phone.
It's horrible, scary, but if I'mthe content guy and the content
(18:29):
selectors have in number ofarticles that they can choose
from, I want to go horse shackand say, pick mine, pick mine so
that mine is the next.
Article that shows up in KleemFeed to keep you on LinkedIn for
an extra two minutes.
And so that's where this, youknow, you kind of do this back
thing, which we talked about.
Full circle Rick building thatreal community so that the
(18:51):
LinkedIn algorithm goes Yeah,yeah, yeah, that's right.
Kleem and Jeff do share someinterest.
Kleem is on, he's looking atarticles on whatever.
Let's give him Jess.
Maybe he will hang out onLinkedIn.
A few more minutes.
Rick (19:02):
That is so brilliant.
just,
Kaleem (19:04):
Evergreen
Rick (19:05):
yeah.
Evergreen that, that, that isit, you know?
Frick (19:08):
That's what I try to do.
And so I created, turn the lensto basically say, don't do what
I just said.
Just watch and let's see if it
Rick (19:14):
Yeah.
Oh my God.
You know, I want to go back alittle bit to the conversation
aspect.
I find it fascinating because,you know, we're all Gen Xers.
And we remember what life waslike before the internet.
You know, traditionalchildhoods, we didn't really
talk about much about how wewere feeling.
Some of us didn't do it at alland, you know, shaped who we are
(19:36):
as people, as adults.
So, we're now part of thissociety where conversation has
become everything.
You know, it's, it, there's somuch, there's so much light
being shined upon, mental healthawareness and just being
overall, just being well.
Thank you.
And I think that's a huge partof why everybody needs the
(19:59):
conversations these days.
It's a split amount of peoplelooking for conversations to
help themselves open up.
And it's the other people whoare looking for the inspiration
just because the stories are sogood.
Right.
And we all, at the end of theday, want to connect with one
another.
Yeah.
(20:19):
You know?
That's it.
There's really nothing more toit than that.
Kaleem (20:24):
no, no,
Frick (20:25):
Yeah, I agree.
Kaleem (20:26):
I was going to say,
you've had a lot of great
conversations with some, youknow, really awesome guests.
Some that we've shared, butyou're on a whole nother realm.
What really made you interestedin the conversation around the
future of work or remote work?
How did you get to that point,right?
Like what, what made you thinkabout this topic as a topic of
(20:50):
conversation?
We'll be right back after thesewords.
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(21:12):
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Since 2013, BlendMe Inc.
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That's blendmeinc.
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stuck in your head?
It's because the person voicingit knows how to tell the story.
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(22:35):
Alright, well that's a bit much,but for you, I'll do it.
I'm Rick Haney, and if you're abusiness owner looking for a
creative voice in yourmarketing, look no further.
I'll tell your story the way youwant it told.
Follow along at Remotely We AreOne, or visit my website at
rickhaney.
me for more information.
(22:58):
And now, back to the show.
Frick (22:59):
So very specific, like
I'm sure a lot of people, you
know, 2020 starts out, I've gota huge schedule ahead of me.
I had a week in May that I hadplanned.
I think I was gonna be runningsix concurrent sets in three
different shows in like twodifferent cities.
And so I was all geared up for,so it was, it would be like IBM
at a show in Vegas and Oracle ata show in San Francisco and SAP
(23:24):
at a show in Orlando.
And I've got.
And I've got three setsinterviewing people at all those
shows during the same dayconcurrently, because all the
tech conferences like to havetheir tech conference the first
week of May for some God awfulreason, which is also my
anniversary week.
Anyway.
So I was geared up for this hugething, COVID hits boom.
And our whole business was goingto events.
(23:45):
That was our whole business.
So COVID hits boom.
We still thought it might beover.
I remember, I remember in lateMarch, they can, maybe it'll,
maybe it'll clear up by, by mayit did it Okay.
So now we're like, so everyone'sconfused and what to do.
And I have a media company thatI'm not now filling full of air,
full of content, because we'renot going to events.
(24:06):
They all got canceled.
And so what I decided to do bothto fill.
Just to fill air time and alsojust to go out to experts who
could provide some insight as towhat everybody should do.
And so it turns out that the allremote people are the people
that had the experience in thisworld that could share data for
(24:26):
the newbies that got thrown intothis.
Unplanned and unready to, towhat they should do.
And so we had had Darren Murphon, and so I reached out to
Darren and said, Darren, can Ihave you on to talk about remote
work best practices for peoplethat are suddenly thrust into
this world?
And I had him on, and then I hadMartin Mikos on.
(24:49):
Martin is currently the CEO ofHackerOne, but he was a CEO at,
MySQL back in the day.
And so that was an all remotecompany.
And so I started reaching out topeople to say, you know, what
are the secrets to all remote?
And, you know, right?
Much more clarity around.
How do you work?
Much more clarity aroundcommunication, communication
(25:09):
protocols, a sync workflow,blah, blah, blah.
And that's how I started to getinto it.
And then the piece that washappening concurrently to that
is this whole thing withYouTube.
And now we're not going toevents.
How should we think aboutcontent creation in this new
world and really start thinkingmore of events as kind of
organizing themes or topics.
(25:31):
This is what we want to talkabout, but not necessarily a
consumption appointment, um, andmore about, we'll use it as a,
as an organizational theme, butwe'll presume that most of the
content is going to be consumedasynchronously on people's own
time and how does that start toreshape things?
And so once we got the company,Transitioned over, everybody
(25:53):
went to remote.
I left like October of that yearof 2020, decided I really wanted
to explore this more.
And then it turns out thatWebEx, had a program called
WebEx One, thought leadershiparound hybrid and future of
work, and they invited me to bea contributor, and that's where
we launched Work 20XX.
They sponsored Season 1 of Work20XX as part of that Bigger
(26:15):
Thought Leadership Program,which was terrific, and so that
was 8 episodes to help, youknow, kick that off.
They didn't continue thesponsorship, but I've continued
the show, and it's grown fromthere.
We're kind of coming up to theend of our 3rd season,
Kaleem (26:29):
Nice.
Frick (26:30):
as you guys.
Kaleem (26:31):
Congratulations.
Oh, come on, sir.
Don't be doing we lit.
We wish we were that prolificAnd by the way, Darren, what's
up, dog?
Huh?
What's
Frick (26:41):
Well, Darren
Rick (26:42):
appointment with us,
Darren?
Frick (26:43):
Oh my goodness.
He has not been, well now he'swith Ford.
See, you gotta get him when he'swith when he's with his other
company.
Kaleem (26:49):
Come on Darren, what the
frick get on the
Frick (26:52):
I knew if I got Darren
on, I got Darren on, who's my
first guest, love you, Darren.
And, uh, I knew if I could getDarren on, then the rest of the
dominoes would fall.
And as you guys have, haveexperienced, you know, you get a
couple of key, you get a coupleof key guests that kind of
validate you and lead the way.
And suddenly, there's otheropportunities to get other great
guests.
Kaleem (27:11):
That's
Rick (27:11):
absolutely.
Kaleem (27:12):
great story man
Rick (27:14):
a few minutes ago you
mentioned, the beginning of 2020
and hoping that things wouldclear up by, what, May, you
said, I think?
Frick (27:21):
Yeah, that was my big
week was May was May 5th, the
week
Kaleem (27:24):
I think I was like, ah,
this will be fine by June
Rick (27:27):
Oh, you know, I was the
same way, right?
But, you know Here we are, it'sfour years later.
And I'm wondering if you couldshed some light on what are the
most common themes that you'rehearing about from remote
workers, you know, people in theremote business.
What kind of conversations aretaking place today versus the
(27:50):
ones you were having
Kaleem (27:51):
Ah,
Rick (27:52):
May of 2020?
Thank you.
Frick (27:55):
2020 was just a whole
different thing, right?
Because nobody do anything aboutany, about anything.
What impressed me with Darren'sand with an all remote point of
view, and Darren said, said agreat is that it forced
companies to be good at thingsthat all companies should be
good at.
And I think what it reallyexposed was a real problem with
lazy management.
(28:16):
That didn't necessarily connectyour objectives to the bigger
objectives.
Didn't necessarily know whatyou're working on.
I mean, people say, how do Iknow what people are working on
if I don't see them?
Like, you don't know whatthey're working on?
Like, really?
Like seeing the back of theirhead is what, I mean, come on.
And so I, and I think this wholething around a sink and, you
(28:37):
know, one of the themes that Icovered a lot at the cube within
the it world is theconsumerization of it.
So what happens, right?
Cutting edge technology hitsconsumer world before it hits
business world.
So suddenly you've got all theseyoung people that have their
entire lives.
In these things, right?
This is how they're used toworking and now they're jumping
onto all these crappy oldsystems, these green screen
(28:58):
systems and, you know, systemsthat you still have to push save
and all this other, this othercrap.
And so what happened in ourpersonal world is a lot of stuff
got sucked into the phone.
Well, guess what?
Look at an old office picturefrom 1985.
All the shit that was there whenI started work, let's start with
a calculator and the phone andmail that those are all on your
phone now.
(29:19):
So I think it really.
Kind of threw up that if youuse, use the tools, use digital
tools, use a synchronousconsumption and really
reallocate the time to twoimportant things.
And it is funny.
I was on a phone call the otherday.
These people didn't realizethere was a day that you had to
go to the office to get on yourcomputer.
(29:40):
Right.
You had to go to the office toget on broadband.
You had to go to the office togo to the files were.
That's where the files were.
There weren't any place else,right?
That's where the mail came.
Your work mail came to work.
So the thing that keepshappening over and over, I don't
know if I answered yourquestion, Rick, is, you know,
the return to office every, um,every, every September, right?
Every August, right after LaborDay, the kids are going back to
(30:01):
school, return to office, andit's happening again.
I'm just getting ready to postmy Friday Five, and there's a
really funny TikTok HP ad.
That I posted this week.
They got a lot of action andthey're making fun of themselves
as bosses.
Like here's the plan.
Three days, no four days.
No, come in.
No, don't come in.
And I think we learned fromBrian Elliott, who I think you
guys have had on, you know, it'sabout team level agreements and
(30:23):
moving.
agency as far down theorganization as you can and
letting those people figure outwhat works best for them as a
group.
And then, you know, managingobjectives, not managing tasks.
And I don't know, I think thepushback is interesting.
There's obviously a bigreckoning coming in commercial
real estate.
That's not going to be pretty,but you know, it's going to go
(30:45):
through it and a bunch of shit'sgoing to get written down, and
recapped and re birthed assomething new.
But not rows of offices.
Kaleem (30:54):
You know, that is a
common conversation that's
happening.
It's about like kind of thisreturn of like going back to the
way it was.
I'm just kind of curious of whatyour personal view is of, you
know, we're always trying totell the future.
Nobody knows really.
But what's your feeling of wherethis thing has headed moving
(31:15):
forward?
Where are we going?
Are we eventually going to fallback to exactly the way it was?
Is it going to change?
What are your thoughts on that?
Frick (31:24):
When have we ever fallen
back to anything?
I mean, the world spins in onedirection, right?
It only spins one direction,whether you're happy with the
direction or not, it doesn'tmatter.
It doesn't spin backwards.
I think what's going to happenis that the newer companies that
grow up in this way.
And do not have that expense andalso have that Tam of talent are
(31:44):
going to start knocking offincumbents and when they start
knocking off incumbentsincreasingly and they don't have
that financial structure, WallStreet is going to look at the
CFO and say, how can you justifythis expense when you're getting
your tail kicked by the newbiedown the road that doesn't have
this structure?
So I think it will happen overtime.
(32:05):
Also, if you look at youngerpeople, I've got two young, not
young kids, you know, fresh outof college kids.
They don't know anything else.
I had two kids that graduatedcollege the last couple, three
years.
They don't know anything else,right?
They're perfectly comfortablewith this world.
They have other ways of meetingand having social engagements
and stuff that maybe before wedidn't have as many options.
(32:25):
It wasn't as easy to find, youknow, local softball rec league.
So everybody played,
Kaleem (32:31):
Yeah.
Frick (32:31):
Company rec league, you
know,
Kaleem (32:32):
Right.
Or swipe left.
You know what I mean?
I mean, you, you don't have togo to the bar guy.
You don't have to go to the baranymore, dude.
You can just bring it.
Let me just swipe left and swipeleft and swipe left.
And they just show right up and
Frick (32:45):
it's funny, right?
You, you say that clean.
There's a guy at Stanford that'sgot to study an ongoing study of
how people met their spouse.
And when I met my spouse in themid eighties, the internet
wasn't even an option, right?
It was me at the bar and meet atthe restaurant, do your church
community, friends, family,whatever.
It's like nine categories.
(33:06):
Okay.
Guess what percentage of peoplein the U S they get married, met
their spouse online dating now.
Kaleem (33:13):
No idea.
Okay.
Let me throw it on number.
I'm going to say 5%.
Frick (33:18):
Right.
Rick (33:19):
Uh, I'm going with, uh,
I'm gonna go with, uh, Wow.
Frick (33:27):
would say 70.
Rick (33:29):
You're shittin me.
Frick (33:31):
So more than half of the
people getting married this year
met their spouse in a way thatdidn't exist at the time that
the device, not that I didn'tchoose it.
It wasn't like it was anoutlier, like only a certain, I
mean, it didn't exist as anoption.
So when you, when you talk aboutold people like me who don't
(33:52):
understand that people.
Can operate on their phones.
These are the same people thatdon't, that didn't have online
dating as an option when todaythat's more than the 50%.
I think that's such anillustrative stat to me.
That's just like, wow.
Yeah.
The world has changed.
And that means all those othernine categories, work, church,
(34:14):
bar, restaurant, all of thosegot wiped out.
You
Rick (34:17):
I mean, I met my wife at
the family reunion.
Frick (34:20):
there you go.
Rick (34:21):
my cousin,
Kaleem (34:23):
Settle down, Rick.
Stop with the accent, Rick.
Stop with the accent, Don't doit, Rick.
That is, no, Jeff.
I think like jokes aside, it iskind of crazy.
The stat that you're throwingout is significantly, it's
significantly relevant because.
(34:44):
That is the prime example of whythere's this friction between
leadership and employees.
I mean, that, that example isthe perfect example.
Like, Hey, listen, Mr.
CEO, all out of your a hundredemployees, 60 of us met our
people online.
And by the way, when you metyour significant other, It
(35:06):
didn't even exist.
So what do you know aboutdating?
It's almost like asking amarried couple that's been
together for 30 years.
Like I love giving datingadvice, but like, what do I
know?
Right?
Like it's almost in that samerealm.
And I've never even thought ofthat.
Jeff, this is going to be anugget by the way.
So thank you.
Rick (35:23):
Yes.
Yes.
Just edit the part out about thefamily reunion.
All right.
I don't want that getting outthere.
Kaleem (35:29):
in.
We're keeping
Frick (35:29):
You can drop that signal
into the editing team.
No, it's pretty interesting.
You know, I had another reallyinteresting thing.
I was sitting on the couch withmy son or watching a football
game or something one day, andhe was supposed to send an email
to somebody and I'm like, sendan email and we're sitting there
watching a few minutes later, goby.
And I'm like, dude, get up andgo send the email.
And he's like, dad, I alreadysent it.
Like, what do you mean youalready sent it?
(35:50):
He's like, I did it on my phone.
I'm like, you did it on yourphone.
You know, you didn't get up togo to a computer to sit down and
do your email.
And I was like, Wow.
I would have never, you know,again, it just, as a
demonstration of people'scomfort and the way they use the
tools is very, very different.
The story Brian Elliott uses allthe time is that the bosses are
(36:11):
complaining that they don't seethe buzz in the office, but the
buzz is all happening in Slack.
It's all in your Slack channeland the boss is only on email.
So They're, so he wants someidiot to have to do the
translation between email andSlack.
And so it's just this.
It's a, there's a, it's a, it isa very different world.
You asked a question and it'snot going, going back.
It's like chat GPT.
(36:31):
It's like, okay, this is today'scalculator.
You better learn how to use it.
You may or may not like it, butthis is the calculator.
And guess what?
The people you're competingwith, they all have new
calculators on their desks.
Kaleem (36:42):
Yeah.
Frick (36:42):
if you're doing, You know
square root longhand, you're in
trouble,
Kaleem (36:45):
you know what I love
about your son's example about
the email.
We talk about this a lot and Iwould love to kind of get your
take on it.
You're sitting there watchingthe game, having a good time and
you're like, Hey, send thatemail.
Your son.
Integrated his work with hislife.
We talk a lot about work lifeintegration.
I think that's what so manypeople really, really, really
(37:08):
enjoy when they're doing remotework.
You're watching the game.
He's watching the game.
Boom.
Boom.
Send the email done and theyjust integrated.
So what do you think about likethe freedom that some people
have experienced?
Do you think that people areever going to just like, let
that go?
Like, would your son take a jobwhere he would have to go into
(37:31):
an office eight to five Mondaythrough Friday?
Frick (37:34):
Yeah.
Well, you know, Nick's researchsays that.
That freedom's worth 9%.
Flexibility is worth 9 percentof your income.
That's what people have ratedit.
So is it worth 9%?
And then the other thing thatcomes up is people talk about
all the office perks.
You know, you have free this,free that, ping pong, this and
that.
But, but what's proving out isthere's no office perk that's
worth more than flexibility.
Right.
(37:54):
That is the ultimate officeperk.
And, you know, I tend to morelook at the downside, which is
not even a question, which isthe commute.
What a waste of time.
What a waste of time.
You know, if you got to comeinto the office, cause we're
having something going on, okay,but every day sitting in the car
going bananas.
And that's before we talk aboutthe waste of the gasoline, the
(38:15):
bad air, the waste of time, etcetera, et cetera.
So then, you know, another pieceis flow state and really doing
work.
And I think we talked about kindof the distractions.
I think a big piece of this isyou need to more actively manage
the distractions.
You need to more actively managethings like email and these
kinds of things.
Communication protocols, whichis why I think communication
protocols are such a big unlockso that you can actually find
(38:36):
time to do work and not just doemail.
You know, these, you can, youcan suck your life up and email
all day long.
I had this great interview witha guy that changed my life on
email and he's just like, Idon't do it anymore.
Very, very little, you know,don't try to tame it, just get
in and out.
And again, I think it's thetheme that was in that social
dilemma movie, which was sogood, right?
(38:58):
If you use the tool to dothings, that's great.
But when the tool starts usingyou.
That's less great.
So, you know, if you're usingGoogle maps to get to each
other's house and plan yourroute, great.
But when the Starbucks ad pullsyou off an exit, because it's
two o'clock and you save 3 on a,on a chicken sandwich and you
pull off.
(39:19):
That's not so great.
Right.
Rick (39:21):
No.
Kaleem (39:21):
So great.
Not so great.
That's pretty
Frick (39:23):
intentional, intentional,
conscious use of the tools.
Rick (39:26):
that's absolutely it.
Total distraction too.
Frick (39:29):
Yeah.
Rick (39:29):
so Jeff, as much as I
could go on about this stuff
because I absolutely love thesetopics, the time has come for
the highlight question of theshow.
Frick (39:38):
Highlight question.
Kaleem (39:41):
Yeah.
Rick (39:45):
had while working
remotely?
Frick (39:47):
Sure.
So I was thinking about this andI go back to when I was first
remote back in the day when allsalespeople were remote.
So I carried a bag.
I was a traveling salesman and Iactually covered the Sacramento
Valley.
So I covered from Fresno.
To Chico, basically the wholespine of the Sacramento Valley
and then up to Tahoe and Reno.
(40:08):
And I lived in San Francisco andthe boss said, Well, Jeff, you
have to move if you're going tocover that territory.
You have to move to Elyse Davis,which is out by Sacramento.
I said, Okay, fine.
And I moved out there.
I never unpacked my boxes.
I slept two nights in that placein a year because as a good
salesman back in the day, youknow, Rick, you had to be out
with your customers.
So this is not new.
(40:29):
I mean, it was less convenientlike to get my orders in.
I would go to Denny's back bythe bathrooms next to the
cigarette machines is where youcould find a phone.
I have vivid memories ofstanding in Turlock in 95 degree
heat with a tie on sweating in alittle phone booth that had a
little corner wedge of metalkind of in the thing you try to
(40:50):
put your book on to call in yourorders with trucks driving by
and a broken window and dustblowing all over the place.
I mean, if you got, if you're inthe office and you're in sales
back in the day, the boss wouldkick your ass out fast like now.
So.
To me, this is, I don't reallyget it.
And anyone that I know that'sever worked hard has never
worked nine to five.
(41:10):
If work has to get done, thenwork has to get done.
If that means you're going inearly, sometimes you're going in
early.
If you're staying late, you'restaying late.
And so I don't, I was fortunate,I guess, cause I had that sales
job and you got paid by onething.
What was your output at the endof the month?
And then it got, and it reset tozero.
Now it was a lot of inputs thatdoing well, help that number get
to where it needed to be by theend of the month, but that's
(41:33):
what you got created on.
And it was, I don't understandwhy there's not more of that.
And I think, as we said earlier,I think a lot of people don't
have clarity as to what thatnumber is.
Sales is lucky because there's aclear number, you know, if
you're in marketing or otherroles, maybe it's not as easy,
but I think that's incumbent onthe boss to really better define
the objectives and measureagainst, accomplishment of those
(41:54):
objectives.
Kaleem (41:55):
Wow.
What a story.
Rick (41:57):
yeah, that's fantastic.
Thank you for sharing.
Kaleem (42:00):
You know, I could just
see you right now in the in the
phone booth and the dust comeThe dust coming you got that
sweaty that sweaty like,
Frick (42:08):
You got your phone card
out.
You're trying to get the phonekey.
It's like 87 buttons.
You got to push in and you getone button wrong.
You got to start
Kaleem (42:15):
got the
Rick (42:16):
what is that movie with
Michael Douglas where he's the,
uh, Uh, falling down.
It was falling down.
Kaleem (42:24):
white shirt with the tie
on the glasses Oh my God.
Frick (42:28):
was it.
Rick (42:29):
Chasing the gang member
away with a baseball bat.
That was incredible.
Frick (42:32):
hoping you can get
through on the order line,
right?
Cause
Kaleem (42:34):
Oh my gosh.
Enough quarters.
You need the quarters to
Rick (42:39):
Yeah.
Kaleem (42:40):
phone, right?
Frick (42:41):
It was funny when I saw
it, and it was TVs, right?
I sold a lot of TVs.
And, you know, I was smartenough to look at those things
even early on and look at themagic that we're surrounded by.
I mean, the magic that we'reusing right now.
You guys are in two differentstates.
I'm on the West Coast.
We're talking online.
People are going to see thiswherever.
I mean, you stick a hanger inthe back of a blackboard.
Box and it can bring theOlympics in from across the
(43:02):
ocean.
It's magical, crazy stuff that,that we have.
So I think if you kind ofappreciate the magic and the
tools and how far we've comeand, you know, I think it's
exciting times and let's usethese tools to free up time, to
take a walk or read a book orwork out or spend more time with
your kids or do more work if youwant, you know, whatever you
want to do.
Rick (43:21):
Yeah, it's a it's the
perfect time to be grateful for
the little things and you know,especially in this day and age I
think Bill Burr's got a bit onungrateful people.
That's you know complainingabout shitty Wi Fi on a plane
Kaleem (43:34):
30,
Rick (43:35):
you're in a giant tube in
the sky and you're complaining
about your Wi Fi service
Kaleem (43:42):
the signals go into the
mood coming from the moon and
hitting you going 600 miles anhour and you're complaining.
Frick (43:49):
If anything complaining,
cause it used to be a break.
I mean, I remember tellingpeople, telling customers I'm
driving up to the North coast ofCalifornia, up to Reading or
whatever.
And I'm going to be off the gridfor the next six hours.
So don't even try to call me.
And what a treat to actually beoff the grid for a six hour
drive through the Redwoods.
Rick (44:09):
Wow.
Unbelievable.
I feel like we could talk forhours, but we got to wind this
up.
Jeff Frick, thank you so muchfor joining
Kaleem (44:18):
Thank you.
Rick (44:19):
incredible conversation.
Frick (44:20):
Thank you gentlemen.
I really appreciate it.
Kaleem (44:22):
Yeah, where can I listen
is fine you Jeff
Frick (44:25):
Find me on LinkedIn.
I live on LinkedIn.
So Jeff Frick on LinkedIn.
I've got some sub stacks, but ifyou just go to LinkedIn and, and
you'll see everything there,
Kaleem (44:33):
awesome, man
Frick (44:34):
I guess as well.
Kaleem (44:35):
That's great, man.
Appreciate you come back in anytime bro.
Come back anytime.
We'll talk to you.
I'm in peace