January 21, 2025 • 47 mins
2024 marked the 30th anniversary of a host of significant moments for sexual and reproductive health, rights, and justice. Dázon Dixon Diallo, Founder and President of SisterLove, Inc. and SisterLove International South Africa, sits down to talk with us about this momentous occasion, the timeline of reproductive justice, and a hopeful look into the future.
In 1994, an array of geopolitical events set the context for women’s leadership and representation. 1994 was also the year that a group of Black women in Chicago defined the concept of reproductive justice, the year that the Violence Against Women Act (VAWA) was passed, and the year that the International Conference on Population and Development (ICPD) was held in Cairo, Egypt, where 180 countries agreed upon the definition of sexual and reproductive health and rights. We can achieve similar progress 30 years from now, as long as the real implications of lack of abortion access and holistic access to sexual and reproductive health care and information continue to be understood.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to Repro Fight Back a podcast on all
things related to sexual andreproductive health rights and
justice. Hi. Re pros. How'severybody doing? I'm your host
Jenny Wetter , and my pronounsare she her. So y'all, I am
recording this the Fridaybefore the inauguration. So I
(00:23):
am living my, you know, lastcouple days of the Biden
administration preparing forall that is to come with the
new Trump administration. So Iam still in a much happier
place than I may be on Tuesdaywhen y'all are hearing this,
when we've started to hear someof the executive orders coming
out that are going to be , uh,really anti rights . So I'm in
(00:48):
a better place and thinkingabout how I am, it's gonna be
really cold here , uh, thisweekend we're gonna get some
snow again. Um, the March forLife is next week, on next
Friday. So just thinkingthrough all of the ways I am
going to stay cozy in my, mycondo and not go out and deal
(01:09):
with the world. So I have afeeling there's going to be
lots of comfort food eaten thisweekend. I like stocked up on
groceries, got some fun books,and just having a quiet
weekend. Uh, staying away fromall of the things. And you
know, like I said, I've beenreally trying to stay off
(01:29):
social media, so I'm gonna domy best to continue to do that.
Yeah, so, and we're still, I'mstill working on meditating. I
don't like, I, I think I'vesaid this before, I maybe
haven't said it , didn't say itthis year. I don't really do
New Year's resolutions. And ifI do, it's like something fun,
like I've done, like I willmake more bake, more pastries.
(01:52):
'cause that was something thatI , uh, didn't do a lot of
baking of pastry. So likechallenge things. Or I did one
year that I am going to drinkmore bubbly. So I , I don't, so
like that is how I do NewYear's resolutions. But one of
the things that I have beenworking on is doing more
meditation. So it goes and fitsand starts and, you know, I'll
(02:17):
do it for a little while andthen, and then stop. But I have
noticed that Luna, one of mycats really gets, I don't know
if it's like the energy I'mputting out or what, whenever I
am meditating, Luna is like, itneeds to be in my face and
(02:38):
wants attention and wants me topet her, which doesn't
necessarily go for keepingyourself , uh, focused in me in
on meditation. But it's, it'spretty funny that she does it
every time. 'cause clearly I'mjust sitting there doing
nothing, so I should be payingattention to her. So we are ,
uh, trying to work around that as I am trying to be
(03:02):
better about , uh, meditating.
That is one of my things I'mworking on for self-care for
this upcoming administration isjust trying to keep my peace.
So hopefully we'll see if itworks. I don't know that I have
a lot to say. I think the onething, and I know this may be
surprising, so this last week,Bob Bugger died and he called
(03:28):
the Milwaukee Brewers gamesfor, I mean, my whole life.
And, and was just like, justsuch a part of my childhood.
Like he was just all overWisconsin and all these ads and
like on TV and just was like an, an ever presence growing up,
even as somebody who grew upmore of a Cubs fan than a
(03:50):
Brewers fan. Like, he was justlike part of the fabric of my
childhood. He was just alwaysin the air. So I, I didn't
expect it, but that one reallyhit me. Like it was just, I
don't know, it really, itreally hit me about like this
piece of my childhood that isno longer around. Um, so that
was very sad and gonna miss Mr.
(04:13):
Baseball. Let's see. I thinkthat's all I wanna talk about
today. I, y'all, I am soexcited for this week's
episode. You know, I have beenso blessed and lucky to have so
many wonderful guests on thispodcast, and I'm always excited
to have great conversationswith them . But let me tell
you, I was so excited to talkto this week's guest and to
(04:36):
have her on the podcast. She isjust such a thought leader in
this area and somebody that Ialways love listening to speak.
Um, so I, I was so excited tohave her on the podcast. So
last year was an importantyear. It was marked the 30th
anniversary of the reproductiveJustice movement and 30 years
(04:59):
for the InternationalConvention on Population
Development, where we first gotreproductive rights as human
rights. It was so wonderful totalk to Daon Dixon Diallo at
SisterLove about that momentand looking for what do we want
to see 30 years from now. Itfelt like a really hopeful
(05:20):
conversation, even though wetalk about, you know, some ,
all of the problems that we'reseeing it , it felt hopeful and
it felt like the rightconversation to hold for today.
Uh, so I am very excited tohave Daon on the podcast. And
with that, let's go to myinterview with Daon . Hi Daon .
(05:42):
Thank you so much for beinghere today. Hi,
Speaker 2 (05:45):
I'm excited to be here with you. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
I'm so excited.
Before we get started, wouldyou like to take a second and
introduce yourself and includeyour pronouns? Well,
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Of course. I am Daon Dixon Jalo , founder and
president of Sister Love basedin Atlanta, Georgia, and the
founder and president of SisterLove International South
Africa, based in Johannesburg.
And my preferred pronouns areshe, and we, I'm a collective
kind of person.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Wonderful. I have been so excited to have you on
the podcast, talk about a bunchof things, but I , you did a
wonderful presentation for acoalition I'm in, and I was
like, oh, this is like thefirst one we need to talk
about. This episode is gonnacome out in January, so we'll
say, last year was the 30thanniversary of a couple big
(06:32):
moments that we're gonna talkabout. But one of the things I
loved about your presentationis you started grounding it of
like what was going on in 1994.
Like, I , I think some , someof our listeners may not have
been born yet. I was juststarting high school. Like it
may be hard to , for people tothink about what things were
(06:52):
going, what would life like.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Wow . Yeah. And I spend a lot of time thinking
about this because , uh, likeyou're pointing out for a lot
of different reasons. I thinkthat 1994 is an extremely
significant year, not only ingeneral, like in the global
context of geopolitics, but Ithink 1994 was an extremely
significant year for women andeven more particularly for
(07:18):
black women in the US as wellas in the , uh, like I said in
the global context. And what Imean by that is if we just
situate a few things thathappened in 1994 and try and
bridge them together. Now,aside from the fact that a lot
of other things happened uh, in 1994, that might
(07:38):
have distracted us a littlebit, right? Some of those
things, for example, were , Ithink that was the year that OJ
Simpson was arrested. I thinkthat was the year that Tupac
Shakur was murdered. And , uh,it's odd enough that 30 years
later, that conversation iscoming back up because of the
(07:59):
context of some other legalmatters that are going on , uh,
with regard to some , uh, youknow, rapper stuff that's
happening out there in theworld. But even, I think more
importantly in terms of 1994and women, it was the year that
there , the simultaneously wasthe first , uh, democratic
(08:21):
elections in South Africa fromwhich Nelson Mandela became the
first democratically electedpresident. It was also the same
year and time of thoseelections, as a matter of fact,
that the genocide against thetootsies happened in Rwanda
significant for , uh, women,because as a result of that ,
uh, atrocity, there's a largepopulation of women that were
(08:45):
left without the, the , becausethe men were killed more than
the women. And as a result,since then, Rwanda has
sustained one of the highestrepresentations of women in
governments in leadership, inbusiness and in education
across the board. It was alsothe year that the CDC first
(09:07):
included women in the AIDSguidelines, or what we call the
AIDS definition for cliniciansto document or to , uh,
diagnose aids in patients. Itwas the year that , uh, the
International Conference onpopulation and development was
held in Cairo, the program ofaction, or the platform of
action was adopted, which wasthe first time that over 180
(09:31):
countries around the world cametogether on an agreement of
what are sexual andreproductive health and rights.
And of course, it was also theyear that the Violence Against
Women Act was signed into law.
And it was the year that 12black women sitting in a hotel
room in Chicago came up withthe concept, the coin title of
(09:53):
reproductive justice and henceforth the movement that we're
talking about today. 94 issuper significant. Yeah . And I
think looking at 2024, we cantie those significances to
things that are happening orhave happened in this year
alone. And so it stands out forme,
Speaker 1 (10:14):
You know, I, like I said, I already heard you do
the , this presentation, thatpart of this presentation. And
so I already technically knewall this, but it still like
blows my mind to think that allof that stuff happened in 1994.
Like that is a momentous year.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
And that all of that stuff happened in the
significance of whether we knewit then in 94 or not in the
trajectory of women's roles,women's leadership, women's
autonomy, women's power. And soI really appreciate the fact
(10:53):
that we can tie all of thosethings and then let's, you
know, we can talk about whathappened in 2024 and the
significance of that, thesignificance of a living in a
post row versus Wade World, ayear of acknowledging how
difficult it was to , um,because this was also a year
(11:15):
that we had to renew theViolence Against Women Act and
how what a challenge it waswhen it shouldn't be that we
are in a year where for thefirst time, the African
National Congress, which wasthe governing party that won
the Democratic elections inSouth Africa in 1994, that this
is the first year that they hada general election in which
(11:37):
they were not achieving 50% ofthe electorate. And a large
part of that, I would say, isbecause they have failed to
deliver on so many promises ofthe beautiful progressive
constitution that South Africahas, including holding the
protections of women and girlsand L-G-B-T-Q people and in
(11:59):
South Africa right now, it isone of the most dangerous
places on earth for these folksto exist. Here we are also in
2024, we , we for, I would saythe, the trajectory of
reproductive justice and thefact that it took so long for
the reproductive rightscommunity and the community at
(12:22):
large to engage and adopt thisframework as a way to address
sexual and reproductive healthchallenges and the
intersections with thosechallenges. I would say that
this is why we're in a post rowworld. I would say this is why
we're still in a uphill battleto get women , uh, elected into
the top office of the land,especially a black or a brown
(12:44):
woman. So there are lots ofthings that I like to connect
1994 to 2024 to give us achance to not repeat this cycle
for the next 30 years. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
I mean, 'cause one of the things I really think
about is, you know, ICPD waslike such a pivotal moment for,
for reproductive rights andthinking of, there's been so
much progress since then in somany ways. But there has also
been this takeover of kind ofauthoritarian regimes with like
(13:17):
anti , uh, rights agendas. Andlike if ICPD were held now, I
don't know if we would get asprogressive as a document as we
got then, even as we're stilltrying to push it to make it
better because it doesn't haveall the things we would like to
see in it. So it's really kindof that tension of these
moments.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
I think you're absolutely right. And that's
kind of what I mean by let'slearn the lessons from these
last 30 years, because I thinkyou're spot on if there, and
actually this is , uh, ICPDcelebrated 30 years, and I
think even in the recognitionof those challenges, they
actually handled this year'sacknowledgement of the platform
(13:57):
of action very differently.
There has not been one bigglobal meeting where all the
governments came together, eveninside the United Nations
General Assembly. There havebeen a lot of regional
conversations. There has been aconcerted effort, for example,
in the 25th year of ICPD to geta lot of global agreements and
(14:18):
commitments country by country,by country, not at the general
assembly level. And so I thinkthat even the U-N-F-P-A , which
is the UN agency that'sresponsible for ICPD, for the
platform of action, as well asfor the strategic development
goals, right? Aligning the SDGswith the ICPD platform of
(14:42):
action. I think being strategicin working country by country
has actually been a reallysmart move for U-N-F-P-A to
sustain the aspirations and thevisions that were put together
by the United Nations andsubsequent governments in 1994.
As a matter of fact, I thinkthat a part of achieving the
(15:06):
strategic development goalshave been immediately tied to
the success of sustaining theplatform of action from 1994
and to go back in and possiblydismantle that would put the ,
uh, charge for the SDGs atgreater risk than where we
already are. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
And, and that makes me think like, so the SDGs
that's through 2030s, thatprocess is gonna be starting.
So again mm-hmm .
That like nervousness of whatwe're going to see coming out
of it as like those globalnegotiations get going of like,
right . I just don't know thatwe can get something as
progressive again. And it justbreaks my heart to think of all
(15:48):
of the people who are not gonnaget access to the services they
need. Yeah. I'm alreadystarting to think through all
of that. Like, I, like I evenmentioned earlier, I work a lot
on the global side for work, sojust thinking through like
what's gonna happen in Januaryand all of the people who may
lose access to a full range ofservices.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
That's right. And the other reality though is
even where services exist andthey're supposed to be
unfettered and they're supposedto be open and accessible by
anyone because of the genderinequities, because we still
stigmatize sexual health, westill stigmatize reproductive
(16:28):
health that's not about birthand delivery in a lot of ways,
or labor and delivery, thatthere are still huge challenges
that were set forth in theplatform of action that we're
still battling with. I, I givethe example that there are
places like in South Africa,which would be a great example
to look at, where abortion, forexample, is not only legal and
(16:52):
accessible through the healthdepartment, through public
health, it is free and stillyoung people are having really
insurmountable challenges toaccessing these services
because of attitudes, becauseof the behaviors of providers,
because of the aunties who workin the clinics and who cast
dispersions on outof sexmarriage or on adolescent and
(17:16):
teen pregnancy without evenputting the context around it
in terms of the genderinequities in sexual
relationships and the agedifferences between older men
and younger women, and all ofthese different intersections,
including gender-based andsexual violence, all of these
(17:36):
different intersections thathappen within a reproductive
justice framework. We couldlook at all of these things and
address them in a different waythan setting aside abortion as
a siloed issue and then actingaccordingly based on individual
beliefs versus looking at alarger framework that supports
bodily autonomy regardless ofthe person's age or
(17:59):
circumstance. So I'm inalignment with you. I'm
concerned about achieving theSDGs by 2030. Uh , we all know
that some of these dates areset be because we have to have
a, we have to have an end point. We have to have a timeline
and a deadline engaged orotherwise we don't get
momentum. But I think we haveto be realistic of what we can
(18:21):
achieve in the next five yearsand what we need to look at
beyond. And I would say, and I,my hat is off to Dr. Natalia Km
, the executive director andthe amazing global community of
U-N-F-P-A workers on the groundand , and in New York and in
Geneva, who can see this forthe long run. Right. And who
(18:44):
can see that this country bycountry , or the way we're
looking at it, even in theUnited States, the state by
state approach to assuring thatpeople's rights and access to
the healthcare and servicesthat they need are assured if
nowhere else within the countrycontext or in our, is in our
(19:06):
situation within the state andlocal context, there are a lot
of parallels to what we'reexperiencing in the US to what
we are seeing and cananticipate is happening in the
rest of the world. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
It's one of those words that feels like it's so
simple of talking about theability to access care, but
there is so much hidden in thatword of what access means.
Yeah. So like when you weretalking about people like
stigma, keeping people awayfrom clinics and stuff, like it
takes one bad experience wheresomebody has a healthcare
(19:40):
worker who doesn't respect thembecause they're young or
whatever, to keep them awayfrom the system in general,
Speaker 2 (19:47):
Or to violate their confidentiality. Yeah. Right.
To the , and all of the dataand all of the studies tell us
that when we create spaces thatrespect the lived experience
and respect what I call theindigenous expertise or the
knowledge that comes with, thisis my body, this is my lived
(20:08):
experience, this is my story.
When we open up and respectthose contexts in which a
person has to make thesedecisions, whether it's around
contraceptive access, whetherit's around abortion access,
whether it's around makingdecisions about when, where,
and how I deliver a baby that Iwanna have, that all of this is
(20:29):
not supposed to be solely inthe hands of a provider or a
decider, right? Becausetypically politicians become
the deciders in our livesoften, that it truly is up to
the, what reproductive justicesays. It's up to the bodily
autonomy of the person. It's upto their decision of when to
have a child, when not to havea child, and when to have the
(20:50):
child that they choose. I mean,and how to raise the children
that they choose to have insafe and development friendly
environments. And so I thinkbottom line is that, and I, and
I say this about 94 and I saythat now, if we don't fully
incorporate, not just adopt,not just acknowledge, not just
(21:13):
give lip service to, but whenwe fully embrace and
incorporate the largerintersectional framework of
reproductive justice, I thinkwe see our movement move faster
and in the direction that wetruly wanna go. Because what
reproductive justice does allowis it allows for seats at the
(21:33):
table for people who may notideologically agree with you on
every single aspect of thereproductive health spectrum.
But if we can all agree, forexample, on women's autonomy,
on women's ability to maketheir decisions, that if we can
all agree that every child bornis a wanted child born, and
(21:55):
that we create the environmentsand the opportunities for
people to make those decisionsbased on that, that we have a
different conversation and thenwe have a different movement.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Yeah. Again, that big year of 1994, like that was
reproductive justice movementcame out of that that year. And
like that was such a hugemomentous change to change the
conversation again, and how wetalk about these things. And it
took a little while for likeeverybody to pick it up more,
but I'm so glad to see itgetting incorporated more and
(22:28):
more. I'm excited to see itshowing up in global
conversations in a way that ithasn't shown up. So I just find
that so exciting to see howmuch it has grown over that 30
years. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
And the other power though, and, and it's, you
know, 'cause it's always harderto prove the negative, right?
Yeah . It's hard to prove thatif this had happened then
certain, certain thingswouldn't have. However, the one
thing that with my ownexperience with being in Cairo,
we went in, 'cause at that timewe were very much focused on
bringing the intersections ofHIV and sexual and reproductive
(23:02):
health into the same frame.
Right. RJ had just been coined.
The idea was to bring RJ to theICPD to change that
conversation, to bring thatdiscourse to another level that
was more inclusive and morediverse.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
Oh, see, I had that timeline flipped in my head. I
had that ICBD came first andthat RJ was a reaction. Oh,
glad to hear that.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
No , as a matter of fact, and I'm so glad you
raised this . So the context ofwhat reproductive justice came
from right, was really abouthealthcare reform.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
Yeah. Right. It was about, because that was big in
that year too.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
It was at a conference that was brought
together specifically to lookat how we were going to ensure,
because right at that point,under the leadership of First
Lady, then former First LadyHillary Clinton, former
President Bill Clinton craftingand trying to put this policy
together and appease theanti-abortion lobby to appease
(24:01):
the other side of the aisle,there was literally
conversation about notincluding reproductive
healthcare in the overall plan.
Ugh . And so that's where,there, that's why there was a
conference. But then thisconference comes together in
the context of the wholeconversation is really about
abortion access. And the blackwomen who were attending that
(24:22):
conference, all 12 of them ,uh, who were attending this
conference, had a differenttake and were frustrated by the
fact that certain issues thatwere impacting the lives of
black and brown and poor womenacross this country were not
being brought into thatconversation. And that's where
they came up with this ideathat some of these issues
(24:43):
aren't just reproductiverights. Some of these issues
are about social justice, it'sabout equality and equity. It's
about making sure that allpeople's reproductive options
were protected under the lawand we're provided within any
kind of healthcare policy. Thatmeeting took place in June or
(25:03):
July of 1994. Oh yeah . So whenthat happened, the , the first
move that they made, one was tointroduce the terminology. And
so they took out a huge ad. Ijust saw a big photo, 'cause I
don't even know where thatnewspaper is anymore. But
, there was an ad inthe Washington Post in August
(25:25):
of that year, which was a monthbefore ICPD. Yeah . People were
organizing all over the world.
I organized the delegation togo to ICPD, Cairo, my name is
on one of the , is one of thosesignatories on that ad that we
posted in the Washington Post,because the idea was to take
reproductive justice to theICPD to have some impact. And
(25:51):
what we went in with waswanting to make sure that the
issue of aids, because we're inthe nineties, right? So we're
still talking AIDS less of HIVat the point, but the issue of
HIV and AIDS made it into thatplatform of action, because
that was a serious matter forwomen who were diagnosed with
AIDS at the time. And thosereally got separated. It never
(26:13):
made with their funding streams. Yeah . With all of the
lobbying, all of the workshops,all the work that we did, it
did not make it into theplatform because of all of the
other issues around aids. Therewas this bifurcation between
HIV and reproductive health andrights going on. Yeah. I
suffice it to say, back to theproving the negative. I would
(26:34):
argue that had HIV and AIDSbeen incorporated into the
overall platform of action, wewould not be looking at a lag
in the response to HIV and AIDSand women around the world. And
I say that not including, itset us back 25 years because
(26:54):
how can we be in 30 years laterlooking at an epidemic that is
predominantly women,predominantly black women and
brown women, and still notgetting the level of attention,
the access, the resources, theresearch, all the things that
(27:17):
men, particularly men who havesex with, men not taking
anything away from the horrorsand, and the challenges that
have addressed that have facedtheir communities in the HIV
space for over 40 years. Nottaking that away at all, but if
you looked at anepidemiologically, the true
balance in the efforts would bein women, and it would be with
(27:40):
a sexual and reproductivehealth lens. If the original
platform of action in 94 hadstated it and had put the
parameters around it and giventhe guidance that we gave to
everything else, that wasincluded in the platform of
action. And so I will bring itback around to the current
U-N-F-P-A and lift up the factthat, at least for the last f
(28:02):
since their 10th anniversary,little is known about the fact
that the 10th anniversary ofICPD was held in London. It was
a huge meeting. And it was atthat meeting that they had
invited at least one person. Itwas promising Timbo to give a
keynote talk. This is a womanof South Africa living with HIV
(28:23):
to talk about what it meant toher to not have had her health
concerns included as a mother,as a young person at that time,
who was facing all kinds ofissues with her diagnoses as
well as her reproductivehealth. And they formally
issued an apology to all peopleliving with HIV, especially to
(28:44):
women who were living with HIVand to women and girls who were
at risk for HIV for that grossoversight. And ever since then,
they have actively been engagedin ensuring that sexual health,
that sexual transmittedinfections, including HIV, have
been a core element to theoverall sexual reproductive
(29:07):
health and rights platform. Ithink that that is a signature
of what engagement of people,of the lived experience means,
what that can generate. But italso, it also shows the true, I
think, the eloquence and theinclusive intention of the
(29:29):
United Nations to make surethat when we're talking about
the SDGs nowadays, we'reworking hard to not exclude any
condition that intersects withpeople's health and wellbeing.
Okay. So we've
Speaker 1 (29:40):
Talked about 2024 being another one of those
moments. So I mean, 30 yearsthrough forever from now, but
like, where do we see RJ andaccess to sexual and
reproductive health being in 30years?
Speaker 2 (29:57):
I wanna say we win , uh,, I really wanna say
we win .
Speaker 1 (30:02):
I know I had somebody ask like, how do you
think we're ever gonna win? AndI'm like, I couldn't do this
work if I did not believe that.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Yeah . No , we're gonna , we're gonna win.
Because the arc of justice isalways, we're always on the
right side of time. It justtakes time. Yep . But progress
is progress and evolution iswhat it is. There's a tiny,
tiny little example that Ithink about in terms of that.
And it is, it might be micro,but I think it's actually major
if we capture it, if we captureit right. In 2024 in the post
(30:34):
I, I just learned recently thatthe director, the state
director of health forMississippi is actually a good
guy. He's actually a niceperson who actually believes in
reproductive health and rights.
Dobbs, Dr. Dobbs is not theenemy, so it's kind of hard. It
is just that he was the head ofthe health department in the
(30:55):
state. And so the state gotsued. And so his name is on the
court case. Yeah. So I, I havea hard time saying post Dobbs,
but since the dismantling ofROE by the Supreme Court in
2024, for the , I thinkprobably the first time since
the early seventies, we havehad documented verifiable cases
(31:21):
of maternal deaths as a resultof abortion bans. Right. So now
we have past laws that areactually killing people. What I
heard and saw change, which Ithink is probably the future,
is for the first time we havehad a context in which we can
talk about abortion in maternalhealth. Maternal health has
(31:45):
always, almost always beencentered only around pregnancy,
labor, and delivery. Right. Andbirth outcomes. But maternal
health is going to be the fullspectrum of pregnancy. And when
we can talk about the fullspectrum of pregnancy and
everything that happens fromectopic to miscarriages to
(32:07):
elective abortions, to , uh,labor and delivery and choices
of how to have those deliveriesand everything in between. Then
again, similar to whatreproductive justice already
does, is it brings a differentintersectional analysis to what
we are hoping for, for the bestoutcomes of people who could
become pregnant. That changes alot of things. And if we really
(32:33):
embrace that before the otherside does, 'cause what the
other side will do is then say,see, we told you those
medication abortions, all ofthat, they, it is killing
people. No. It is therestrictions that are killing
people. And the narrative hasto be such that reproductive
health and maternal health gohand in hand. And that abortion
is a part of maternal healthand wellbeing, then we can have
(32:56):
a different conversation. I , Ido believe that if the RJ
community grasps onto that andfinds ways to make sure that
it's in the policy, that it'sin the community education and
mobilization work, that it's invoter education, that it's
involved in all in and workingin faith communities, that when
it's involved in a differentway, then we're gonna have a
(33:18):
different outcome and we'regonna start to see different
policies. The other thing is,is this another way to hold
people accountable? Oh, so youdon't care about pregnant
people. Right. That's a , thatsounds different than, oh,
you're anti-abortion. Weforgive you for that. Right. So
that's just one little kernelof hope that I have, is that we
are able to change thenarrative. Right. And, and ,
(33:42):
and
Speaker 1 (33:42):
I kind of think it's working right? Like you saw the
polling has been like so frozenfor so long, but when people
started to see the actual what,what getting rid of abortion
access actually means. Yep .
You saw the numbers actuallymove as pe as people understood
the real implications.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
And this maternal focus will sustain that. Right.
It , because I think it's stillpretty , um, precarious, right?
These, the , the , these arethe same people who voted for
the person who was about tobecome the president, only to
have buyer's remorse beforethey're even inaugurated. So
yes, I think that there's hugeopportunity in this shift, but
(34:27):
that we're gonna have to keepthat conversation in that
space, keeping it open tounderstanding bodily autonomy
and women's autonomy. Becausethat's really, it wasn't even
about abortion anymore. It wasreally about women's ability to
make our own decisions. And Ithink that it's offensive to
anybody for someone else tosay, well, no, you can't, you
(34:48):
can make all these otherdecisions, but you can't make
this one that I think is ,you're absolutely right on
that. And, and I'm lookingforward to see how it's not
just bringing us through thenext election cycle and the
next election cycle, but howit's bringing us through
changing societal attitudes.
And it's changing the cultureof our community to understand
(35:09):
that healthcare is healthcareand that maternal and
reproductive health are a partof that full stop .
Speaker 1 (35:15):
And that conversation won't bring us
back to roe . Right? Because weknow so many people were
already prevented fromaccessing care, then this will
bring us to a better placewhere people who were unable to
access care because theycouldn't afford it because
there wasn't a clinic near them. Right . Because they couldn't
jump through all of the hoopswe can get to a better place.
(35:37):
Yeah. That is meeting the needsof people.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
Well, you know what's funny is, again, trust
black women because since the,the true fight, for example, to
end the Hyde Amendment, whichis, you know, the , uh, it was
the annual amendment attachedto the budget every year that
deny public the use of publicmonies to pay for anyone's
(36:00):
abortion. That that was alwaysthe rallying cry. Roe was never
enough. Roe was not enough toprotect poor women who didn't
have access to abortions otherthan to go into extreme dire
situations in order to affordit. The role was never enough
for women who were shackled atthe time that they were
delivering. If they wereinstitutionalized, whether
(36:21):
incarcerated or whether in ahealth, a mental health
institution or substancetreatment facility, or anywhere
else like that where they wereunder the oversight of the
judiciary. That role was neverenough when it came to having
access to all of the availableoptions for contraception. You
know, deciding from aprovider's bias of what kinds
(36:44):
of contraception you wannaoffer different people based on
your perceptions of who theyare and how they live. That
wasn't protected on the ro evenif it shoulda have
Speaker 1 (36:54):
Been, yeah. I don't remember getting offered
options. Like they were like,here, here's a pill. There
wasn't a conversation of like,there are these other choices
you could make
Speaker 2 (37:03):
Or young, well, here's your nore plant go forth
in . Right? And so, or yourimplant . Your implant. So the
RO was never enough in terms ofmaking sure that people had the
appropriate care andprotections for the types of
births and deliveries that theywanted to give RO
Speaker 1 (37:21):
Or getting decent sex ed.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Start with that.
Right? RO was never enough tomake sure that everybody got
the absolutely correct,correct. Comprehensive
sexuality and sexual healthinformation that they needed.
And I still, I'd be one ofthese who argued that even if
we had the most robust programon sexual and reproductive
health, comprehensive healtheducation, I wouldn't trust our
(37:45):
schools. Not nam bit . NA is anumber where I come from. I
wouldn't trust that, I believewholly that we have to have a
structure of community led ,community based comprehensive
sexual health education,because mama's grandmamas
aunties didn't get it. Unclesdaddies didn't , brothers
didn't get it, and theshopkeeper didn't get it, and
(38:07):
the faith leader didn't get it.
So if we had these communityeducation, the ways that we
educate people aroundrecycling, the way we educate
people around the climate, theway we educate whole
communities and how to takecare of whole communities, why
isn't sexual and reproductivehealth a part of that to take
care of whole community ? Sothat would be where I think
(38:29):
reproductive justice also has apretty good chance of, of
creating a different space andframework of even how we talk
about comprehensive sexualhealth.
Speaker 1 (38:40):
Okay. I feel like I could talk to you for hours and
I would love to, but I, I don'twanna take too much of your
time. So I always love wrappingup, not just with what is
happening, but how can ouraudience get involved? What
actions can they take right nowthat would be a help?
Speaker 2 (38:57):
Absolutely. Well, first and foremost, find out
who and where the reproductivejustice or reproductive justice
adjacent organizations are inyour community. And support
them. Support them with yourmoney. Support them with your
time. Support them by makingsure others know about them.
Support them with your, youknow, showing up for services
and for care , uh, if they're,that, if they're providing
(39:20):
something that you might needor someone that you know might
need. So that's the firstthing, is to get involved, to
get to know them and to getinvolved in those organizations
because trust and believe theyare struggling right now. They
are struggling not only to keeptheir doors open, they're not
only struggling to keep theservices going, but they're
also struggling to make surethat they have the love and
(39:42):
support and attention fromtheir own neighbors and
communities that should be herefor us. That's the first one.
The second one is to continueto pay attention. I don't care
whether you're in a blue state,a red state, a burgundy state,
a purple state, it doesn'tmatter, whatever. 'cause
there's lots of shenanigans,right? Whatever , uh, the law
(40:02):
and policy work is that's goingon in your state legislature,
pay attention and be involved.
You know, the organizationsthat I'm talking about, because
of our 5 0 1 C3 status, there'sonly so much that we can do.
But as individuals, you can goand tell 'em exactly what you
want them to do and how youwant them to vote. And so that
is what we are encouragingpeople, is to get more engaged.
(40:25):
Don't wait for another electionyear to come around your , some
of your legislatures aremeeting all year long in the
state of Georgia. We only meet40 days once a year, but it's
those 40 days that we make sureas many people as possible are
up under that gold dome and areactive as possible talking to
their, their legislators .
That's the second thing. Thethird thing that I wanna make
(40:46):
sure that we're doing iscreating spaces where we can
have these conversations withour families, with our
communities, with our friends,with the people that we engage
with on a regular basis. Thatwe're not getting into these
teta tets , that we're notgetting in these pushback and
forth on ideology and beliefs,but that we're having real
(41:07):
informed conversations aboutwhat's real and what's not
real. Because there's got to bea way that person to person ,
we can counter and undo thedamage that the misinformation
and the disinformation that isflooding the internet,
flooding, social media,flooding all of our information
(41:28):
sources that we have to be the,the harbors of the truth and of
the, of the facts and of thereal information. So that's the
third thing that I think isprobably the most important
thing, is to know the truth,know the facts, and be
comfortable in sharing thoseand having conversations about
those facts without engagingall the emotions and all the
(41:51):
ideologies, but just therealities of what's actually
happening and moving people tothinking and talking about it
in those ways. Because theother way has not served us.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
I'm a big fan of that one. I really believe in
like making yourself aresource. And you don't need to
know all the things. You don'tneed to know all the things.
Right . But if you know whereyou can point people to for
them to get unbiasedinformation, good information,
that is invaluable.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
Yeah. And watch out.
I know in the state of Georgia,we have a proliferation of them
watch out because there will bean exponential growth in the
fake abortion clinics. Oh yeah.
In these so-called crisispregnancy centers, or what they
call themselves as pregnancyresource centers. Watch out for
them, be able to identify them,warn your friends and family
(42:41):
about them, and do what you canto make sure that they are not
allowed to do the damage . Thatso far the law is allowing them
to do. They're ramping up andthey're scaling up. They're
gonna become actual full onclinics that in some instances
clinicians may be required torefer people who are undecided
(43:02):
about their pregnancies to ,
Speaker 1 (43:04):
I forgot about that.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:05):
So it scares me to think that we're creating a
shadow system of reproductivehealthcare that's not actually
full reproductive healthcarewith the, with the respect,
with the equity, and with thetruth and real services , um,
that people deserve. And so ifthere was a fourth element to
(43:28):
what I'm saying right now, itis really watching out for
these so-called pregnancycenters that are no more than
judgmental shaming spaces thatare doing the work of the far
right to force pregnancies.
Speaker 1 (43:43):
Yeah. And bringing that back to our, the beginning
of our conversation, we arealso seeing them start to go
global.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
Oh, they've been global. They're just going
bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger.
Yeah. I mean, I'm in the stateof Georgia. We have , um, I
think at the last count we have89 of them where there might be
four or five well, womenclinics in the whole state of
Georgia, but there's 89 of thefake clinics and they have
their own separate line item inthe state budget.
Speaker 1 (44:09):
And a lot of states have , uh, if you have , if you
see , choose life licenseplates in your state, often
they go to crisis pregnancycenters. That's
Speaker 2 (44:18):
A lot of where their money comes from. Plus our
governor gives him money out ofhis discretionary budget.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
Well, Daon , thank you so much for being here. I
very much enjoyed talking toyou today, Jamie .
Speaker 2 (44:28):
Thank you so much.
I've enjoyed talking with you.
This is great. I've had fun.
Thank you so much. I mean, youknow, I'll close on this one .
I know we're talking about someheavy stuff that could just
have people stewing and boilingand, you know, needing to grab
another cup of tea. But , um,what my best friend Loretta j
Ross says is that fighting hateshould be fun. So, you know,
(44:51):
I'm finding joy every time weget a chance to have this
conversation because it is funto make sure that you're
bringing the truth and bringingthe facts and bringing the
reality of people's livedexperiences in the face of all
of these challenges so that theopposition doesn't have room to
hide and they can't run fromit. So yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm
(45:13):
gonna chase you with all thefun and all the facts that I
possibly can muster.
Speaker 1 (45:19):
Aw , thank you.
Okay, y'all, I hope you enjoyedmy conversation with Daon . It
felt like the right episode toput out today, since this is
the day after the Trump'sinauguration when this comes
out, I wanted something thatwas a little more hopeful. Um,
we'll have episodes reacting tothe parade of I'm sure unending
(45:43):
actions that are attacking ourrights in the future. But I
wanted something with a littlemore hope today. So I hope you
enjoyed it. Um, and with that,I will see everybody next week.
If you have any questions,comments, or topics you would
like us to cover, always feelfree to shoot me an email. You
can reach me at Jenny jnn ,ie@reprofightback.com , or you
(46:06):
can find us on social media.
We're at re pros. Fight back onFacebook and Twitter or re pros
FB on Instagram. If you loveour podcast and wanna make sure
more people find it, take thetime to rate and review us on
your favorite podcast platform.
Or if you wanna make sure tosupport the podcast, you can
also donate on ourwebsite@reprofightback.com.
(46:27):
Thanks all.
Welcome to Repro Fight Back a podcast on all
things related to sexual andreproductive health rights and
justice. Hi. Re pros. How'severybody doing? I'm your host
Jenny Wetter , and my pronounsare she her. So y'all, I am
recording this the Fridaybefore the inauguration. So I
(00:23):
am living my, you know, lastcouple days of the Biden
administration preparing forall that is to come with the
new Trump administration. So Iam still in a much happier
place than I may be on Tuesdaywhen y'all are hearing this,
when we've started to hear someof the executive orders coming
out that are going to be , uh,really anti rights . So I'm in
(00:48):
a better place and thinkingabout how I am, it's gonna be
really cold here , uh, thisweekend we're gonna get some
snow again. Um, the March forLife is next week, on next
Friday. So just thinkingthrough all of the ways I am
going to stay cozy in my, mycondo and not go out and deal
(01:09):
with the world. So I have afeeling there's going to be
lots of comfort food eaten thisweekend. I like stocked up on
groceries, got some fun books,and just having a quiet
weekend. Uh, staying away fromall of the things. And you
know, like I said, I've beenreally trying to stay off
(01:29):
social media, so I'm gonna domy best to continue to do that.
Yeah, so, and we're still, I'mstill working on meditating. I
don't like, I, I think I'vesaid this before, I maybe
haven't said it , didn't say itthis year. I don't really do
New Year's resolutions. And ifI do, it's like something fun,
like I've done, like I willmake more bake, more pastries.
(01:52):
'cause that was something thatI , uh, didn't do a lot of
baking of pastry. So likechallenge things. Or I did one
year that I am going to drinkmore bubbly. So I , I don't, so
like that is how I do NewYear's resolutions. But one of
the things that I have beenworking on is doing more
meditation. So it goes and fitsand starts and, you know, I'll
(02:17):
do it for a little while andthen, and then stop. But I have
noticed that Luna, one of mycats really gets, I don't know
if it's like the energy I'mputting out or what, whenever I
am meditating, Luna is like, itneeds to be in my face and
(02:38):
wants attention and wants me topet her, which doesn't
necessarily go for keepingyourself , uh, focused in me in
on meditation. But it's, it'spretty funny that she does it
every time. 'cause clearly I'mjust sitting there doing
nothing, so I should be payingattention to her. So we are ,
uh, trying to work around that
(03:02):
better about , uh, meditating.
That is one of my things I'mworking on for self-care for
this upcoming administration isjust trying to keep my peace.
So hopefully we'll see if itworks. I don't know that I have
a lot to say. I think the onething, and I know this may be
surprising, so this last week,Bob Bugger died and he called
(03:28):
the Milwaukee Brewers gamesfor, I mean, my whole life.
And, and was just like, justsuch a part of my childhood.
Like he was just all overWisconsin and all these ads and
like on TV and just was like an, an ever presence growing up,
even as somebody who grew upmore of a Cubs fan than a
(03:50):
Brewers fan. Like, he was justlike part of the fabric of my
childhood. He was just alwaysin the air. So I, I didn't
expect it, but that one reallyhit me. Like it was just, I
don't know, it really, itreally hit me about like this
piece of my childhood that isno longer around. Um, so that
was very sad and gonna miss Mr.
(04:13):
Baseball. Let's see. I thinkthat's all I wanna talk about
today. I, y'all, I am soexcited for this week's
episode. You know, I have beenso blessed and lucky to have so
many wonderful guests on thispodcast, and I'm always excited
to have great conversationswith them . But let me tell
you, I was so excited to talkto this week's guest and to
(04:36):
have her on the podcast. She isjust such a thought leader in
this area and somebody that Ialways love listening to speak.
Um, so I, I was so excited tohave her on the podcast. So
last year was an importantyear. It was marked the 30th
anniversary of the reproductiveJustice movement and 30 years
(04:59):
for the InternationalConvention on Population
Development, where we first gotreproductive rights as human
rights. It was so wonderful totalk to Daon Dixon Diallo at
SisterLove about that momentand looking for what do we want
to see 30 years from now. Itfelt like a really hopeful
(05:20):
conversation, even though wetalk about, you know, some ,
all of the problems that we'reseeing it , it felt hopeful and
it felt like the rightconversation to hold for today.
Uh, so I am very excited tohave Daon on the podcast. And
with that, let's go to myinterview with Daon . Hi Daon .
(05:42):
Thank you so much for beinghere today. Hi,
Speaker 2 (05:45):
I'm excited to be here with you. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
I'm so excited.
Before we get started, wouldyou like to take a second and
introduce yourself and includeyour pronouns? Well,
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Of course. I am Daon Dixon Jalo , founder and
president of Sister Love basedin Atlanta, Georgia, and the
founder and president of SisterLove International South
Africa, based in Johannesburg.
And my preferred pronouns areshe, and we, I'm a collective
kind of person.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Wonderful. I have been so excited to have you on
the podcast, talk about a bunchof things, but I , you did a
wonderful presentation for acoalition I'm in, and I was
like, oh, this is like thefirst one we need to talk
about. This episode is gonnacome out in January, so we'll
say, last year was the 30thanniversary of a couple big
(06:32):
moments that we're gonna talkabout. But one of the things I
loved about your presentationis you started grounding it of
like what was going on in 1994.
Like, I , I think some , someof our listeners may not have
been born yet. I was juststarting high school. Like it
may be hard to , for people tothink about what things were
(06:52):
going, what would life like.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Wow . Yeah. And I spend a lot of time thinking
about this because , uh, likeyou're pointing out for a lot
of different reasons. I thinkthat 1994 is an extremely
significant year, not only ingeneral, like in the global
context of geopolitics, but Ithink 1994 was an extremely
significant year for women andeven more particularly for
(07:18):
black women in the US as wellas in the , uh, like I said in
the global context. And what Imean by that is if we just
situate a few things thathappened in 1994 and try and
bridge them together. Now,aside from the fact that a lot
of other things happened
(07:38):
have distracted us a littlebit, right? Some of those
things, for example, were , Ithink that was the year that OJ
Simpson was arrested. I thinkthat was the year that Tupac
Shakur was murdered. And , uh,it's odd enough that 30 years
later, that conversation iscoming back up because of the
(07:59):
context of some other legalmatters that are going on , uh,
with regard to some , uh, youknow, rapper stuff that's
happening out there in theworld. But even, I think more
importantly in terms of 1994and women, it was the year that
there , the simultaneously wasthe first , uh, democratic
(08:21):
elections in South Africa fromwhich Nelson Mandela became the
first democratically electedpresident. It was also the same
year and time of thoseelections, as a matter of fact,
that the genocide against thetootsies happened in Rwanda
significant for , uh, women,because as a result of that ,
uh, atrocity, there's a largepopulation of women that were
(08:45):
left without the, the , becausethe men were killed more than
the women. And as a result,since then, Rwanda has
sustained one of the highestrepresentations of women in
governments in leadership, inbusiness and in education
across the board. It was alsothe year that the CDC first
(09:07):
included women in the AIDSguidelines, or what we call the
AIDS definition for cliniciansto document or to , uh,
diagnose aids in patients. Itwas the year that , uh, the
International Conference onpopulation and development was
held in Cairo, the program ofaction, or the platform of
action was adopted, which wasthe first time that over 180
(09:31):
countries around the world cametogether on an agreement of
what are sexual andreproductive health and rights.
And of course, it was also theyear that the Violence Against
Women Act was signed into law.
And it was the year that 12black women sitting in a hotel
room in Chicago came up withthe concept, the coin title of
(09:53):
reproductive justice and henceforth the movement that we're
talking about today. 94 issuper significant. Yeah . And I
think looking at 2024, we cantie those significances to
things that are happening orhave happened in this year
alone. And so it stands out forme,
Speaker 1 (10:14):
You know, I, like I said, I already heard you do
the , this presentation, thatpart of this presentation. And
so I already technically knewall this, but it still like
blows my mind to think that allof that stuff happened in 1994.
Like that is a momentous year.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
And that all of that stuff happened in the
significance of whether we knewit then in 94 or not in the
trajectory of women's roles,women's leadership, women's
autonomy, women's power. And soI really appreciate the fact
(10:53):
that we can tie all of thosethings and then let's, you
know, we can talk about whathappened in 2024 and the
significance of that, thesignificance of a living in a
post row versus Wade World, ayear of acknowledging how
difficult it was to , um,because this was also a year
(11:15):
that we had to renew theViolence Against Women Act and
how what a challenge it waswhen it shouldn't be that we
are in a year where for thefirst time, the African
National Congress, which wasthe governing party that won
the Democratic elections inSouth Africa in 1994, that this
is the first year that they hada general election in which
(11:37):
they were not achieving 50% ofthe electorate. And a large
part of that, I would say, isbecause they have failed to
deliver on so many promises ofthe beautiful progressive
constitution that South Africahas, including holding the
protections of women and girlsand L-G-B-T-Q people and in
(11:59):
South Africa right now, it isone of the most dangerous
places on earth for these folksto exist. Here we are also in
2024, we , we for, I would saythe, the trajectory of
reproductive justice and thefact that it took so long for
the reproductive rightscommunity and the community at
(12:22):
large to engage and adopt thisframework as a way to address
sexual and reproductive healthchallenges and the
intersections with thosechallenges. I would say that
this is why we're in a post rowworld. I would say this is why
we're still in a uphill battleto get women , uh, elected into
the top office of the land,especially a black or a brown
(12:44):
woman. So there are lots ofthings that I like to connect
1994 to 2024 to give us achance to not repeat this cycle
for the next 30 years. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
I mean, 'cause one of the things I really think
about is, you know, ICPD waslike such a pivotal moment for,
for reproductive rights andthinking of, there's been so
much progress since then in somany ways. But there has also
been this takeover of kind ofauthoritarian regimes with like
(13:17):
anti , uh, rights agendas. Andlike if ICPD were held now, I
don't know if we would get asprogressive as a document as we
got then, even as we're stilltrying to push it to make it
better because it doesn't haveall the things we would like to
see in it. So it's really kindof that tension of these
moments.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
I think you're absolutely right. And that's
kind of what I mean by let'slearn the lessons from these
last 30 years, because I thinkyou're spot on if there, and
actually this is , uh, ICPDcelebrated 30 years, and I
think even in the recognitionof those challenges, they
actually handled this year'sacknowledgement of the platform
(13:57):
of action very differently.
There has not been one bigglobal meeting where all the
governments came together, eveninside the United Nations
General Assembly. There havebeen a lot of regional
conversations. There has been aconcerted effort, for example,
in the 25th year of ICPD to geta lot of global agreements and
(14:18):
commitments country by country,by country, not at the general
assembly level. And so I thinkthat even the U-N-F-P-A , which
is the UN agency that'sresponsible for ICPD, for the
platform of action, as well asfor the strategic development
goals, right? Aligning the SDGswith the ICPD platform of
(14:42):
action. I think being strategicin working country by country
has actually been a reallysmart move for U-N-F-P-A to
sustain the aspirations and thevisions that were put together
by the United Nations andsubsequent governments in 1994.
As a matter of fact, I thinkthat a part of achieving the
(15:06):
strategic development goalshave been immediately tied to
the success of sustaining theplatform of action from 1994
and to go back in and possiblydismantle that would put the ,
uh, charge for the SDGs atgreater risk than where we
already are. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
And, and that makes me think like, so the SDGs
that's through 2030s, thatprocess is gonna be starting.
So again mm-hmm
That like nervousness of whatwe're going to see coming out
of it as like those globalnegotiations get going of like,
right . I just don't know thatwe can get something as
progressive again. And it justbreaks my heart to think of all
(15:48):
of the people who are not gonnaget access to the services they
need. Yeah. I'm alreadystarting to think through all
of that. Like, I, like I evenmentioned earlier, I work a lot
on the global side for work, sojust thinking through like
what's gonna happen in Januaryand all of the people who may
lose access to a full range ofservices.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
That's right. And the other reality though is
even where services exist andthey're supposed to be
unfettered and they're supposedto be open and accessible by
anyone because of the genderinequities, because we still
stigmatize sexual health, westill stigmatize reproductive
(16:28):
health that's not about birthand delivery in a lot of ways,
or labor and delivery, thatthere are still huge challenges
that were set forth in theplatform of action that we're
still battling with. I, I givethe example that there are
places like in South Africa,which would be a great example
to look at, where abortion, forexample, is not only legal and
(16:52):
accessible through the healthdepartment, through public
health, it is free and stillyoung people are having really
insurmountable challenges toaccessing these services
because of attitudes, becauseof the behaviors of providers,
because of the aunties who workin the clinics and who cast
dispersions on outof sexmarriage or on adolescent and
(17:16):
teen pregnancy without evenputting the context around it
in terms of the genderinequities in sexual
relationships and the agedifferences between older men
and younger women, and all ofthese different intersections,
including gender-based andsexual violence, all of these
(17:36):
different intersections thathappen within a reproductive
justice framework. We couldlook at all of these things and
address them in a different waythan setting aside abortion as
a siloed issue and then actingaccordingly based on individual
beliefs versus looking at alarger framework that supports
bodily autonomy regardless ofthe person's age or
(17:59):
circumstance. So I'm inalignment with you. I'm
concerned about achieving theSDGs by 2030. Uh , we all know
that some of these dates areset be because we have to have
a, we have to have an end point. We have to have a timeline
and a deadline engaged orotherwise we don't get
momentum. But I think we haveto be realistic of what we can
(18:21):
achieve in the next five yearsand what we need to look at
beyond. And I would say, and I,my hat is off to Dr. Natalia Km
, the executive director andthe amazing global community of
U-N-F-P-A workers on the groundand , and in New York and in
Geneva, who can see this forthe long run. Right. And who
(18:44):
can see that this country bycountry , or the way we're
looking at it, even in theUnited States, the state by
state approach to assuring thatpeople's rights and access to
the healthcare and servicesthat they need are assured if
nowhere else within the countrycontext or in our, is in our
(19:06):
situation within the state andlocal context, there are a lot
of parallels to what we'reexperiencing in the US to what
we are seeing and cananticipate is happening in the
rest of the world. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
It's one of those words that feels like it's so
simple of talking about theability to access care, but
there is so much hidden in thatword of what access means.
Yeah. So like when you weretalking about people like
stigma, keeping people awayfrom clinics and stuff, like it
takes one bad experience wheresomebody has a healthcare
(19:40):
worker who doesn't respect thembecause they're young or
whatever, to keep them awayfrom the system in general,
Speaker 2 (19:47):
Or to violate their confidentiality. Yeah. Right.
To the , and all of the dataand all of the studies tell us
that when we create spaces thatrespect the lived experience
and respect what I call theindigenous expertise or the
knowledge that comes with, thisis my body, this is my lived
(20:08):
experience, this is my story.
When we open up and respectthose contexts in which a
person has to make thesedecisions, whether it's around
contraceptive access, whetherit's around abortion access,
whether it's around makingdecisions about when, where,
and how I deliver a baby that Iwanna have, that all of this is
(20:29):
not supposed to be solely inthe hands of a provider or a
decider, right? Becausetypically politicians become
the deciders in our livesoften, that it truly is up to
the, what reproductive justicesays. It's up to the bodily
autonomy of the person. It's upto their decision of when to
have a child, when not to havea child, and when to have the
(20:50):
child that they choose. I mean,and how to raise the children
that they choose to have insafe and development friendly
environments. And so I thinkbottom line is that, and I, and
I say this about 94 and I saythat now, if we don't fully
incorporate, not just adopt,not just acknowledge, not just
(21:13):
give lip service to, but whenwe fully embrace and
incorporate the largerintersectional framework of
reproductive justice, I thinkwe see our movement move faster
and in the direction that wetruly wanna go. Because what
reproductive justice does allowis it allows for seats at the
(21:33):
table for people who may notideologically agree with you on
every single aspect of thereproductive health spectrum.
But if we can all agree, forexample, on women's autonomy,
on women's ability to maketheir decisions, that if we can
all agree that every child bornis a wanted child born, and
(21:55):
that we create the environmentsand the opportunities for
people to make those decisionsbased on that, that we have a
different conversation and thenwe have a different movement.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Yeah. Again, that big year of 1994, like that was
reproductive justice movementcame out of that that year. And
like that was such a hugemomentous change to change the
conversation again, and how wetalk about these things. And it
took a little while for likeeverybody to pick it up more,
but I'm so glad to see itgetting incorporated more and
(22:28):
more. I'm excited to see itshowing up in global
conversations in a way that ithasn't shown up. So I just find
that so exciting to see howmuch it has grown over that 30
years. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
And the other power though, and, and it's, you
know, 'cause it's always harderto prove the negative, right?
Yeah . It's hard to prove thatif this had happened then
certain, certain thingswouldn't have. However, the one
thing that with my ownexperience with being in Cairo,
we went in, 'cause at that timewe were very much focused on
bringing the intersections ofHIV and sexual and reproductive
(23:02):
health into the same frame.
Right. RJ had just been coined.
The idea was to bring RJ to theICPD to change that
conversation, to bring thatdiscourse to another level that
was more inclusive and morediverse.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
Oh, see, I had that timeline flipped in my head. I
had that ICBD came first andthat RJ was a reaction. Oh,
glad to hear that.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
No , as a matter of fact, and I'm so glad you
raised this . So the context ofwhat reproductive justice came
from right, was really abouthealthcare reform.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
Yeah. Right. It was about, because that was big in
that year too.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
It was at a conference that was brought
together specifically to lookat how we were going to ensure,
because right at that point,under the leadership of First
Lady, then former First LadyHillary Clinton, former
President Bill Clinton craftingand trying to put this policy
together and appease theanti-abortion lobby to appease
(24:01):
the other side of the aisle,there was literally
conversation about notincluding reproductive
healthcare in the overall plan.
Ugh . And so that's where,there, that's why there was a
conference. But then thisconference comes together in
the context of the wholeconversation is really about
abortion access. And the blackwomen who were attending that
(24:22):
conference, all 12 of them ,uh, who were attending this
conference, had a differenttake and were frustrated by the
fact that certain issues thatwere impacting the lives of
black and brown and poor womenacross this country were not
being brought into thatconversation. And that's where
they came up with this ideathat some of these issues
(24:43):
aren't just reproductiverights. Some of these issues
are about social justice, it'sabout equality and equity. It's
about making sure that allpeople's reproductive options
were protected under the lawand we're provided within any
kind of healthcare policy. Thatmeeting took place in June or
(25:03):
July of 1994. Oh yeah . So whenthat happened, the , the first
move that they made, one was tointroduce the terminology. And
so they took out a huge ad. Ijust saw a big photo, 'cause I
don't even know where thatnewspaper is anymore. But
(25:25):
of that year, which was a monthbefore ICPD. Yeah . People were
organizing all over the world.
I organized the delegation togo to ICPD, Cairo, my name is
on one of the , is one of thosesignatories on that ad that we
posted in the Washington Post,because the idea was to take
reproductive justice to theICPD to have some impact. And
(25:51):
what we went in with waswanting to make sure that the
issue of aids, because we're inthe nineties, right? So we're
still talking AIDS less of HIVat the point, but the issue of
HIV and AIDS made it into thatplatform of action, because
that was a serious matter forwomen who were diagnosed with
AIDS at the time. And thosereally got separated. It never
(26:13):
made with their funding streams. Yeah . With all of the
lobbying, all of the workshops,all the work that we did, it
did not make it into theplatform because of all of the
other issues around aids. Therewas this bifurcation between
HIV and reproductive health andrights going on. Yeah. I
suffice it to say, back to theproving the negative. I would
(26:34):
argue that had HIV and AIDSbeen incorporated into the
overall platform of action, wewould not be looking at a lag
in the response to HIV and AIDSand women around the world. And
I say that not including, itset us back 25 years because
(26:54):
how can we be in 30 years laterlooking at an epidemic that is
predominantly women,predominantly black women and
brown women, and still notgetting the level of attention,
the access, the resources, theresearch, all the things that
(27:17):
men, particularly men who havesex with, men not taking
anything away from the horrorsand, and the challenges that
have addressed that have facedtheir communities in the HIV
space for over 40 years. Nottaking that away at all, but if
you looked at anepidemiologically, the true
balance in the efforts would bein women, and it would be with
(27:40):
a sexual and reproductivehealth lens. If the original
platform of action in 94 hadstated it and had put the
parameters around it and giventhe guidance that we gave to
everything else, that wasincluded in the platform of
action. And so I will bring itback around to the current
U-N-F-P-A and lift up the factthat, at least for the last f
(28:02):
since their 10th anniversary,little is known about the fact
that the 10th anniversary ofICPD was held in London. It was
a huge meeting. And it was atthat meeting that they had
invited at least one person. Itwas promising Timbo to give a
keynote talk. This is a womanof South Africa living with HIV
(28:23):
to talk about what it meant toher to not have had her health
concerns included as a mother,as a young person at that time,
who was facing all kinds ofissues with her diagnoses as
well as her reproductivehealth. And they formally
issued an apology to all peopleliving with HIV, especially to
(28:44):
women who were living with HIVand to women and girls who were
at risk for HIV for that grossoversight. And ever since then,
they have actively been engagedin ensuring that sexual health,
that sexual transmittedinfections, including HIV, have
been a core element to theoverall sexual reproductive
(29:07):
health and rights platform. Ithink that that is a signature
of what engagement of people,of the lived experience means,
what that can generate. But italso, it also shows the true, I
think, the eloquence and theinclusive intention of the
(29:29):
United Nations to make surethat when we're talking about
the SDGs nowadays, we'reworking hard to not exclude any
condition that intersects withpeople's health and wellbeing.
Okay. So we've
Speaker 1 (29:40):
Talked about 2024 being another one of those
moments. So I mean, 30 yearsthrough forever from now, but
like, where do we see RJ andaccess to sexual and
reproductive health being in 30years?
Speaker 2 (29:57):
I wanna say we win , uh,
we win .
Speaker 1 (30:02):
I know I had somebody ask like, how do you
think we're ever gonna win? AndI'm like, I couldn't do this
work if I did not believe that.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Yeah . No , we're gonna , we're gonna win.
Because the arc of justice isalways, we're always on the
right side of time. It justtakes time. Yep . But progress
is progress and evolution iswhat it is. There's a tiny,
tiny little example that Ithink about in terms of that.
And it is, it might be micro,but I think it's actually major
if we capture it, if we captureit right. In 2024 in the post
(30:34):
I, I just learned recently thatthe director, the state
director of health forMississippi is actually a good
guy. He's actually a niceperson who actually believes in
reproductive health and rights.
Dobbs, Dr. Dobbs is not theenemy, so it's kind of hard. It
is just that he was the head ofthe health department in the
(30:55):
state. And so the state gotsued. And so his name is on the
court case. Yeah. So I, I havea hard time saying post Dobbs,
but since the dismantling ofROE by the Supreme Court in
2024, for the , I thinkprobably the first time since
the early seventies, we havehad documented verifiable cases
(31:21):
of maternal deaths as a resultof abortion bans. Right. So now
we have past laws that areactually killing people. What I
heard and saw change, which Ithink is probably the future,
is for the first time we havehad a context in which we can
talk about abortion in maternalhealth. Maternal health has
(31:45):
always, almost always beencentered only around pregnancy,
labor, and delivery. Right. Andbirth outcomes. But maternal
health is going to be the fullspectrum of pregnancy. And when
we can talk about the fullspectrum of pregnancy and
everything that happens fromectopic to miscarriages to
(32:07):
elective abortions, to , uh,labor and delivery and choices
of how to have those deliveriesand everything in between. Then
again, similar to whatreproductive justice already
does, is it brings a differentintersectional analysis to what
we are hoping for, for the bestoutcomes of people who could
become pregnant. That changes alot of things. And if we really
(32:33):
embrace that before the otherside does, 'cause what the
other side will do is then say,see, we told you those
medication abortions, all ofthat, they, it is killing
people. No. It is therestrictions that are killing
people. And the narrative hasto be such that reproductive
health and maternal health gohand in hand. And that abortion
is a part of maternal healthand wellbeing, then we can have
(32:56):
a different conversation. I , Ido believe that if the RJ
community grasps onto that andfinds ways to make sure that
it's in the policy, that it'sin the community education and
mobilization work, that it's invoter education, that it's
involved in all in and workingin faith communities, that when
it's involved in a differentway, then we're gonna have a
(33:18):
different outcome and we'regonna start to see different
policies. The other thing is,is this another way to hold
people accountable? Oh, so youdon't care about pregnant
people. Right. That's a , thatsounds different than, oh,
you're anti-abortion. Weforgive you for that. Right. So
that's just one little kernelof hope that I have, is that we
are able to change thenarrative. Right. And, and ,
(33:42):
and
Speaker 1 (33:42):
I kind of think it's working right? Like you saw the
polling has been like so frozenfor so long, but when people
started to see the actual what,what getting rid of abortion
access actually means. Yep .
You saw the numbers actuallymove as pe as people understood
the real implications.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
And this maternal focus will sustain that. Right.
It , because I think it's stillpretty , um, precarious, right?
These, the , the , these arethe same people who voted for
the person who was about tobecome the president, only to
have buyer's remorse beforethey're even inaugurated. So
yes, I think that there's hugeopportunity in this shift, but
(34:27):
that we're gonna have to keepthat conversation in that
space, keeping it open tounderstanding bodily autonomy
and women's autonomy. Becausethat's really, it wasn't even
about abortion anymore. It wasreally about women's ability to
make our own decisions. And Ithink that it's offensive to
anybody for someone else tosay, well, no, you can't, you
(34:48):
can make all these otherdecisions, but you can't make
this one that I think is ,you're absolutely right on
that. And, and I'm lookingforward to see how it's not
just bringing us through thenext election cycle and the
next election cycle, but howit's bringing us through
changing societal attitudes.
And it's changing the cultureof our community to understand
(35:09):
that healthcare is healthcareand that maternal and
reproductive health are a partof that full stop .
Speaker 1 (35:15):
And that conversation won't bring us
back to roe . Right? Because weknow so many people were
already prevented fromaccessing care, then this will
bring us to a better placewhere people who were unable to
access care because theycouldn't afford it because
there wasn't a clinic near them. Right . Because they couldn't
jump through all of the hoopswe can get to a better place.
(35:37):
Yeah. That is meeting the needsof people.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
Well, you know what's funny is, again, trust
black women because since the,the true fight, for example, to
end the Hyde Amendment, whichis, you know, the , uh, it was
the annual amendment attachedto the budget every year that
deny public the use of publicmonies to pay for anyone's
(36:00):
abortion. That that was alwaysthe rallying cry. Roe was never
enough. Roe was not enough toprotect poor women who didn't
have access to abortions otherthan to go into extreme dire
situations in order to affordit. The role was never enough
for women who were shackled atthe time that they were
delivering. If they wereinstitutionalized, whether
(36:21):
incarcerated or whether in ahealth, a mental health
institution or substancetreatment facility, or anywhere
else like that where they wereunder the oversight of the
judiciary. That role was neverenough when it came to having
access to all of the availableoptions for contraception. You
know, deciding from aprovider's bias of what kinds
(36:44):
of contraception you wannaoffer different people based on
your perceptions of who theyare and how they live. That
wasn't protected on the ro evenif it shoulda have
Speaker 1 (36:54):
Been, yeah. I don't remember getting offered
options. Like they were like,here, here's a pill. There
wasn't a conversation of like,there are these other choices
you could make
Speaker 2 (37:03):
Or young, well, here's your nore plant go forth
in . Right? And so, or yourimplant . Your implant. So the
RO was never enough in terms ofmaking sure that people had the
appropriate care andprotections for the types of
births and deliveries that theywanted to give RO
Speaker 1 (37:21):
Or getting decent sex ed.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Start with that.
Right? RO was never enough tomake sure that everybody got
the absolutely correct,correct. Comprehensive
sexuality and sexual healthinformation that they needed.
And I still, I'd be one ofthese who argued that even if
we had the most robust programon sexual and reproductive
health, comprehensive healtheducation, I wouldn't trust our
(37:45):
schools. Not nam bit . NA is anumber where I come from. I
wouldn't trust that, I believewholly that we have to have a
structure of community led ,community based comprehensive
sexual health education,because mama's grandmamas
aunties didn't get it. Unclesdaddies didn't , brothers
didn't get it, and theshopkeeper didn't get it, and
(38:07):
the faith leader didn't get it.
So if we had these communityeducation, the ways that we
educate people aroundrecycling, the way we educate
people around the climate, theway we educate whole
communities and how to takecare of whole communities, why
isn't sexual and reproductivehealth a part of that to take
care of whole community ? Sothat would be where I think
(38:29):
reproductive justice also has apretty good chance of, of
creating a different space andframework of even how we talk
about comprehensive sexualhealth.
Speaker 1 (38:40):
Okay. I feel like I could talk to you for hours and
I would love to, but I, I don'twanna take too much of your
time. So I always love wrappingup, not just with what is
happening, but how can ouraudience get involved? What
actions can they take right nowthat would be a help?
Speaker 2 (38:57):
Absolutely. Well, first and foremost, find out
who and where the reproductivejustice or reproductive justice
adjacent organizations are inyour community. And support
them. Support them with yourmoney. Support them with your
time. Support them by makingsure others know about them.
Support them with your, youknow, showing up for services
and for care , uh, if they're,that, if they're providing
(39:20):
something that you might needor someone that you know might
need. So that's the firstthing, is to get involved, to
get to know them and to getinvolved in those organizations
because trust and believe theyare struggling right now. They
are struggling not only to keeptheir doors open, they're not
only struggling to keep theservices going, but they're
also struggling to make surethat they have the love and
(39:42):
support and attention fromtheir own neighbors and
communities that should be herefor us. That's the first one.
The second one is to continueto pay attention. I don't care
whether you're in a blue state,a red state, a burgundy state,
a purple state, it doesn'tmatter, whatever. 'cause
there's lots of shenanigans,right? Whatever , uh, the law
(40:02):
and policy work is that's goingon in your state legislature,
pay attention and be involved.
You know, the organizationsthat I'm talking about, because
of our 5 0 1 C3 status, there'sonly so much that we can do.
But as individuals, you can goand tell 'em exactly what you
want them to do and how youwant them to vote. And so that
is what we are encouragingpeople, is to get more engaged.
(40:25):
Don't wait for another electionyear to come around your , some
of your legislatures aremeeting all year long in the
state of Georgia. We only meet40 days once a year, but it's
those 40 days that we make sureas many people as possible are
up under that gold dome and areactive as possible talking to
their, their legislators .
That's the second thing. Thethird thing that I wanna make
(40:46):
sure that we're doing iscreating spaces where we can
have these conversations withour families, with our
communities, with our friends,with the people that we engage
with on a regular basis. Thatwe're not getting into these
teta tets , that we're notgetting in these pushback and
forth on ideology and beliefs,but that we're having real
(41:07):
informed conversations aboutwhat's real and what's not
real. Because there's got to bea way that person to person ,
we can counter and undo thedamage that the misinformation
and the disinformation that isflooding the internet,
flooding, social media,flooding all of our information
(41:28):
sources that we have to be the,the harbors of the truth and of
the, of the facts and of thereal information. So that's the
third thing that I think isprobably the most important
thing, is to know the truth,know the facts, and be
comfortable in sharing thoseand having conversations about
those facts without engagingall the emotions and all the
(41:51):
ideologies, but just therealities of what's actually
happening and moving people tothinking and talking about it
in those ways. Because theother way has not served us.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
I'm a big fan of that one. I really believe in
like making yourself aresource. And you don't need to
know all the things. You don'tneed to know all the things.
Right . But if you know whereyou can point people to for
them to get unbiasedinformation, good information,
that is invaluable.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
Yeah. And watch out.
I know in the state of Georgia,we have a proliferation of them
watch out because there will bean exponential growth in the
fake abortion clinics. Oh yeah.
In these so-called crisispregnancy centers, or what they
call themselves as pregnancyresource centers. Watch out for
them, be able to identify them,warn your friends and family
(42:41):
about them, and do what you canto make sure that they are not
allowed to do the damage . Thatso far the law is allowing them
to do. They're ramping up andthey're scaling up. They're
gonna become actual full onclinics that in some instances
clinicians may be required torefer people who are undecided
(43:02):
about their pregnancies to ,
Speaker 1 (43:04):
I forgot about that.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:05):
So it scares me to think that we're creating a
shadow system of reproductivehealthcare that's not actually
full reproductive healthcarewith the, with the respect,
with the equity, and with thetruth and real services , um,
that people deserve. And so ifthere was a fourth element to
(43:28):
what I'm saying right now, itis really watching out for
these so-called pregnancycenters that are no more than
judgmental shaming spaces thatare doing the work of the far
right to force pregnancies.
Speaker 1 (43:43):
Yeah. And bringing that back to our, the beginning
of our conversation, we arealso seeing them start to go
global.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
Oh, they've been global. They're just going
bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger.
Yeah. I mean, I'm in the stateof Georgia. We have , um, I
think at the last count we have89 of them where there might be
four or five well, womenclinics in the whole state of
Georgia, but there's 89 of thefake clinics and they have
their own separate line item inthe state budget.
Speaker 1 (44:09):
And a lot of states have , uh, if you have , if you
see , choose life licenseplates in your state, often
they go to crisis pregnancycenters. That's
Speaker 2 (44:18):
A lot of where their money comes from. Plus our
governor gives him money out ofhis discretionary budget.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
Well, Daon , thank you so much for being here. I
very much enjoyed talking toyou today, Jamie .
Speaker 2 (44:28):
Thank you so much.
I've enjoyed talking with you.
This is great. I've had fun.
Thank you so much. I mean, youknow, I'll close on this one .
I know we're talking about someheavy stuff that could just
have people stewing and boilingand, you know, needing to grab
another cup of tea. But , um,what my best friend Loretta j
Ross says is that fighting hateshould be fun. So, you know,
(44:51):
I'm finding joy every time weget a chance to have this
conversation because it is funto make sure that you're
bringing the truth and bringingthe facts and bringing the
reality of people's livedexperiences in the face of all
of these challenges so that theopposition doesn't have room to
hide and they can't run fromit. So yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm
(45:13):
gonna chase you with all thefun and all the facts that I
possibly can muster.
Speaker 1 (45:19):
Aw , thank you.
Okay, y'all, I hope you enjoyedmy conversation with Daon . It
felt like the right episode toput out today, since this is
the day after the Trump'sinauguration when this comes
out, I wanted something thatwas a little more hopeful. Um,
we'll have episodes reacting tothe parade of I'm sure unending
(45:43):
actions that are attacking ourrights in the future. But I
wanted something with a littlemore hope today. So I hope you
enjoyed it. Um, and with that,I will see everybody next week.
If you have any questions,comments, or topics you would
like us to cover, always feelfree to shoot me an email. You
can reach me at Jenny jnn ,ie@reprofightback.com , or you
(46:06):
can find us on social media.
We're at re pros. Fight back onFacebook and Twitter or re pros
FB on Instagram. If you loveour podcast and wanna make sure
more people find it, take thetime to rate and review us on
your favorite podcast platform.
Or if you wanna make sure tosupport the podcast, you can
also donate on ourwebsite@reprofightback.com.
(46:27):
Thanks all.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com