January 14, 2025 • 36 mins
All faith traditions have diverse opinions and practices on reproductive health, rights, and justice. In fact, the majority of people of faith in the U.S. support access to abortion care. Rev. Katey Zeh, ordained Baptist minister and CEO for the Religious Community for Reproductive Choice (RCRC), sits down to talk with us about the organization’s recent blessings and spiritual support provided at abortion clinics.
The movement and infrastructure of Christian nationalism coopts Christian language for a political agenda, including one which is anti-abortion; still, individuals in faith groups aren’t a monolith. RCRC visited the Women’s Health Center of West Virginia, which had lost its ability to provide abortion care post-Dobbs. The clinic went just over the border and purchased some medical office space to open the Women’s Health Center of Maryland, where abortion care could be provided. RCRC brought the West Virginia staff to Maryland and performed the blessing on the Maryland clinic. The New York Times shared a story on this blessing in December, 2024.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to Repro Fight Back a podcast on all
things related to sexual andreproductive health rights and
justice. Hi re pros . How'severybody doing? I'm your host
Jenny Wetter , and my pronounsare she her. See y'all. I am
still healing from , uh, myallergies being so out of
(00:23):
whack. I am mostly better. Mycough is still lingering a
little bit and I'm still alittle stuffy every once in a
while , but like I feel a lotbetter. I think I sound better
too, but I think I still have alittle bit of the, the , you
can tell I've been coughing andI'm a little stuffy, but, but I
feel a lot better, so that'sgood. And so mostly I'm, you
(00:44):
know, recovering from the curseof my holidays. But you know,
other than the, the allergieslike my broken toe and tailbone
are still healing my toe, likeI honestly, I don't really
think about it. It was like mylittle pinky toe. Um, so unless
I like bump it on something ortry to move it too much, like
(01:05):
then I can tell like that it'sstill healing. But , um, my
tailbone is still in a badplace, so it's uh, just waiting
for it to heal and it's justreally uncomfortable, you know,
sitting and having to readjustall the time to take the
pressure off. And it's just alot. I'm ready for it . I'm
ready for it to get better.
(01:26):
Let's see. Oh yeah, last weekwe had snow in DC which was
exciting. We got like six toseven inches, which is a lot
for DC Uh , so it was just likereally lovely last Monday to
sit and like watch it snowwhile I was sitting at home.
Nice warm and comfy, watchingall the kids like sledding on a
(01:46):
hill near me that I can seefrom my window. Like that was
so much fun to see them takingadvantage of the snow day,
especially on Monday. Like itwas so hard to work seeing like
all of these families out,having so much joy going
sledding, like it was , um, itwas a lot of fun to, to watch
that and made me think of likeback when I was a kid, I, I
(02:07):
like to tell a story of um , myparents' house was on , is on
the top of a hill and it's apretty wooded property. Um, but
when I was in I thinkkindergarten or preschool, but
I think kindergarten, my dadtook me out tobogganing down
the hill and so like he had tosteer, right? Like, 'cause we
had trees that you had to likego around, but we were out like
(02:27):
having a lot of fun. And thenon what ended up being our last
rundown, we hit a sheet of iceand so got thrown from the
toboggan and like went down therest of the hill like on my
face and ran into the housecrying like my face all scraped
up and yelling, mommy, mommy,daddy tried to kill me. No, I
(02:51):
wasn't dramatic. Uh, .
So she's like trying to figureout like what happened and then
my dad comes in and he is likepicking Breyers off of his hat
and his hair and uh, told herwhat happened and he got thrown
the other way and ended up intothe knot like part of the woods
that I isn't groomed. So likeit had like briar bushes and
(03:13):
stuff. I dunno , it just mademe think of that and like it
was just such a silly memory ofuh, being out and having fun
with my dad. Let's see whatelse is going on? Oh yeah, just
thinking of friends in LA whoare still dealing with all of
these fires, it is justdevastating to see what is
happening out there and all ofthe people who are being
(03:36):
impacted. Um, there are so manygreat , great resources
available. We'll make sure toinclude a link in our show
notes for a place that has themall in one spot. But I have
been donating to the LA areaFood Bank and the World Central
Kitchen to make sure thatpeople are able to get food.
But there are lots of greatoptions of organizations to
(03:57):
support out there to make surethat people are able to get
what they need. Um, I thinkwith that , maybe let's just
turn to this week's episode. Iam really excited we haven't
talked about Faith on thepodcast in a while and I
couldn't think of a betterperson to have on to have that
conversation than the wonderfulReverend Katie Zay with the
(04:17):
religious communities forReproductive Choice. She's a
friend and it's always lovelyto have her on to talk about
faith in Repro 'cause she'ssuch an important voice in that
movement. So with that, let'sgo to my conversation with
Katie . Hi Katie . Thank you somuch for being here.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Hi Jenny . I'm so glad to be back on the podcast.
It's been a while .
Speaker 1 (04:38):
I know. I feel like it has been so long and I was
gonna look back and see, but Ididn't. But it's still lovely
to have you.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
I think it , I'm gonna say 2021. Does that
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Sound right ? That feels like it can't be true,
but like it could
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Be, it could be .
Speaker 1 (04:56):
No, it was your book. When did your book come
out it
Speaker 2 (04:58):
That long? Gosh .
Okay. 20 20 22. Okay . 2022.
Yeah . It
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Makes it feel like a tiny bit better. That
Speaker 2 (05:03):
That , that does sound better though now we're
in 2025, so now that's almostthree years ago. .
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Oh my goodness.
Okay. Well before we start ourconversation, would you like to
introduce yourself and includeyour pronouns?
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Sure. I'm Katie Zay . I use she her pronouns and I
am an ordained Baptist ministerand I serve as the CEO of the
religious community forReproductive Choice. I used to
be the Religious Coalition forReproductive Choice. We just
did a slight name change and wework at the intersection of
faith and reproductive freedom.
(05:35):
And I have been involved withthe organization since I was in
my early twenties. So it's beenquite a journey. Obviously it's
uh , an interesting time to bedoing this work, but it's
really an honor. And I live inthe Raleigh Durham area of
North Carolina.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Oh, wonderful. I I, the first time I did my intro I
was like, oh , uh, they changedtheir name and I had like this
big pause of like, what did itgo to? I
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Know it's just a slight tweak 'cause we feel
like coalition and communityhave very different feelings.
Yeah . And when we were formedin the seventies, coalition
really did make sense for, youknow, we were, we had
organizations, institutionsthat were part of us, but now
it's a lot more about justfinding like-minded people or
people who are interested inexploring their spirituality
(06:23):
around these issues. And wedon't want people to feel like
they have to be part ofanything formal to be in our
community. And so that slighttweak just feels like it
captures the heart of who weare in these times. So , um,
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Yeah, I really like it.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Good. Yeah, I like it too. But I still have to
stop myself and habit .
Speaker 1 (06:41):
It's
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Still new The habit . It's the habit. And when
you've been saying somethingfor like 20 years ,
it's hard to change it.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Well and like even the same initial, so it's like
yeah , it's our crc like
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Yes. Which makes things easier and more
difficult 'cause it's such aslight change. But yes,
community is um, definitely whowe are.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Well I am always happy to have you on but like I
said, it's been a while sinceyou've been on, but it's also I
feel like been a while sinceI've had someone to come on the
podcast to talk about faith inRepro. And so it feels like a
really good opportunity to takea moment and do that and also
just like take a little bit ofa step back from like what's
(07:22):
happening and talk about, youknow, so much in the past the
conversation around faith andrepro has been focused on the
antis and not having that , uh,having the conversation that
there's so much of a morediverse voice in the faith
community when it comes tothese issues. So I'd really
(07:43):
love to hear your thoughts onthat. 'cause I know you , this
is something you have thoughtabout and worked on a lot.
Yeah,
Speaker 2 (07:49):
I'm not totally sure where to start, so I'm just
gonna go with what my gut says.
And I , I think part of whathas changed even in the last
couple of years since wetalked, I mean there's been a
lot, but I think the precisionof language around our
opposition has gotten better.
And by that I mean people aretalking about Christian
(08:10):
nationalism in a way that theyweren't a few years ago. And
really being crystal clear thatthere is political
infrastructure and a movementthat co-ops Christian language
for a political agenda, a partof which is to be anti-abortion
and other things. But more thanthat it's just kind of
(08:30):
anti-free democracy. Um, so Ithink being more crystal clear
when we talk about the antisand who is in a position of
power, we're really talkingabout Christian nationalism. So
I think that's helpful just tohave that language and framing
that we're not talking aboutall Christians, we're talking
about a very specific kind ofgroup of people who are
(08:51):
politically motivated. Sothat's helpful. So in addition
to that, just talking about howyes, there's so much diversity
within all faith traditionsreally around issues of
reproductive freedom withinChristianity, within Judaism, I
mean with any major religionthere are folks, just like
anything else, there are gonnabe people who have a wide
(09:14):
spectrum of , of opinion andthere might be official
teachings of a , of a faith,but even those usually have
some diversity. And thatdoesn't mean that the
individual people who are partof any faith tradition
subscribe to those specificbeliefs, right? Like people
have their own opinions aboutthings. So it's a lot more
complicated than what we haveseen historically in the media.
(09:35):
It's a lot more complicatedthan that and more nuanced. And
what we know from Pew researchis that a majority of people of
faith do support access toabortion care has been true for
a long time. There are somefaith groups where that isn't
true. But among mainlineProtestants, members of Jewish
faith, a lot of Catholics, Imean it's polling shows that
(09:58):
that people have faced supportlegal abortion. And I think
since Dobbs we've really seenwhat that looks like,
especially when we're lookingat ballot initiatives and
things. You know, like peoplein general are
supportive of legal abortionand other reproductive health
issues. And so I think we'restarting to show more nuanced
(10:21):
view again and speaking back tothat dominant white Christian
nationalist narrative that saysto be a person of faith means
you have to be anti-choiceamong other things and really
nuancing that and pushing backagainst that because that's
never been true and it'scertainly not true now. Yeah,
Speaker 1 (10:38):
I think you're right. Like there was
definitely the, like someonewho was raised Catholic like
that the US Conference ofCatholic bishops spoke for all
Catholics. Right. Which is nottrue. Right? And so there was
the really that loss of likegranularity of like people are
individuals, people bring theirwhole selves to whatever
(10:58):
they're doing and you know, youmay not agree with the teaching
on everything. You may haveyour own opinions, your faith
may bring you to see itdifferently than the way that
it is being taught or the waythat people at the top are
talking about it. And I thinkyou're starting to see some of
(11:19):
that come out more publicly,right? Like that had always
been yes true, but like mm-hmm big picture
publicly. You're starting to Ithink, hear those voices in a
way that you hadn't in a longtime.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
I think that's right. The people are looking
for new and different ways toexpress their faith beliefs
around these issues. And Ithink that's part of the work
of RCRC and my own personalwork has been how do I help
people? And I , you know, I'mordering Christian Minister so
that's the framework that Iknow best, but how do I give
folks who maybe have never,never heard a religiously
(11:55):
supported argument for beingpro-choice or however you wanna
frame it. Like giving peopleways for them to enter into
that conversation with theirfaith values. Because I , I
think sometimes people justdon't necessarily have the
language they don't know how toarticulate it, or as I often
talk about, are struggling withtheir internalized abortion
(12:15):
stigma and need to wrestle withthat so that they can speak
authentically from their faith,from from their own lived
experience around these issues.
I think sometimes it really isjust a matter of giving people
language.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Oh man, that all feels so true. Just like
thinking through again going tolike Catholic school and stuff
and just being in thatenvironment of like all of that
internalized stigma around, Imean, not just abortion, right?
Like right. It was
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Being an embodied human . Yeah. Like I
had sex
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Ed from a nun. Like it was not helpful as I came to
navigating my like sexualexperiences as I was older
because I was not given thetools I needed to like make
decisions and the ways thatthat can be harmful and mm-hmm
. I don't know ,that's just so you have that
stigma that like is attached toall of it that is so hard to
(13:09):
shake off. Yep . And um, yeah,I don't know . That's just one
of the things, there wassomething else that really
stuck but apparently not thatwell. 'cause I got, I really
hooked onto the stigma part, .
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Well I think it's a good piece to get stuck on and
it does function to silence usfrom talking about it. And
again, if we're we don't havepractice talking about these
things, it can feel that muchmore uncomfortable and that
read AST to talk about it . The
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Shame. Yeah . The Catholic Irish shame
Speaker 2 (13:37):
, which I've
talked about functions
politically too. I mean, Ithink when, when people do not
feel like they can share withintheir, their families or their
communities about theirreproductive experiences than
when there are political issuesthat impact those people don't
feel like they can talk aboutit from a lived experience.
Which I think is so often howpeople shift their viewpoints
(14:00):
is learning about people'sstories and hearing about their
experiences. And , um, ifpeople aren't sharing those, I
think it's just that muchharder for people to remember
that these issues are deeplyhuman, deeply individual and
personal. And so combating thestigma and the silence I think
is so key to us getting freetogether.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
I love how you talk about your faith bringing you
to be pro-abortion and how yourfaith brought you here. Yeah .
And I think that is again,another conversation that I
think people don't hear asoften. Yeah . And it's so
important. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
I mean I love to share that I received my call
to ministry within the walls ofan abortion clinic and that is
really when I felt my call todo this work was holding
patients' hands and being withthe doctors and nurses and the
staff who are so caring andkind and doing the sacred work
and then experiencing what itfelt like to walk into a
(14:58):
clinic, being perceived as apatient there to have an
abortion. And they were allthese religious people, you
know, we shared a faith and Ithought, my goodness, this is,
that is not what we're calledto do. Stand outside and yell
at people. We're called to dothis compassionate life-giving
work that the, the clinic staffwas doing. And so, yeah, for
me, I've never felt a conflictbetween my faith in this work.
(15:21):
It is so they're so deeplyintertwined that I can't
imagine one without the other.
And that might be unique, but Ithink it's uniquely beautiful
too.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
Yeah. I always love hearing you talk about it
'cause I do think it is, it'sunique, but it's, I don't know,
it feels just like so hopefulto me hearing that. And you
know, the reason we decided tohave this conversation today
was talking about the work thatyou all did recently with
blessings at an abortionclinic, which again, just so
(15:53):
beautiful and so hopeful. Wouldyou like to talk about that
experience?
Speaker 2 (15:57):
I, I would love to.
This has been part of our CRCswork for the last, maybe not
quite a decade, but for, forsome years now where we are
invited into spaces withpeople. Sometimes it is to
bless the opening of a newclinic. We've done several of
those. Sometimes it's to honoran anniversary of a clinic.
(16:18):
Sometimes it's simply just toprovide spiritual support in
places where it's extremelydifficult to provide abortion
care, which is more and morethe part of the country now.
But this one was so unique andinteresting and I would love to
share the story of the, theclinic. So we're actually two
because I think it's just sucha testament to where we are
(16:40):
into the resilience of peoplewho work in this space. So the,
the two clinics that we , um,that we blessed the Women's
Health Center of Maryland andthe Women's Health Center of
West Virginia, and I don't knowif you've heard of these
clinics, but the clinic in WestVirginia had been open for a
long time, for decades, I think50 years. And of course after
(17:01):
the Dobbs decision, they wereno longer able to provide
abortion care. And they do alot of other things in that
community. They do , uh, harmreduction care, they do gender
affirming care, reproductivehealthcare , but they lost
their ability to provideabortion care because of the
law. And so they looked andjust across the border in
(17:22):
Maryland, there was a medicaloffice that they raised money
to, to buy and to open a clinicjust across the border from
West Virginia in Maryland wherethey knew they would be able to
provide abortion care. And sothat facility has been open for
about a year and a half at thispoint. And so we were in
contact with them about doing ablessing for the Maryland
(17:45):
clinic, but as we were talking,I was like, we've gotta figure
out a way to include the WestVirginia clinic. And so these
two staffs had never met eachother. It's about three and a
half hours between the two. Andfiguring out a way to honor the
grief and the legacy and theongoing work of the West
Virginia Clinic while alsocelebrating their resilience
(18:08):
and opening a clinic inMaryland and that they're able
to provide abortion care there,like trying to hold all of
those things. I think that'swhere faith can do a really
good job and spirituality canhold a lot of different things
at the same time. And so wework together with the staffs
and we brought the WestVirginia staff to Maryland and
(18:30):
we did a , a blessing of thebuilding and an honoring of the
grief. And we had a member ofthe clergy consultation service
on abortion there with us,which if you all don't know,
was a network of clergy pre-Roethat helps people get access to
abortion care. So it was justso powerful to have all of
these people in the same room,to give them space to just
(18:52):
express their mixed feelings. Alot of grief, a lot of joy,
everything in between. And wehad the honor of having the New
York Times come and capturethat and, and share that story
visually and through words inthe times back in December.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
I was so excited when I saw you post it that the
Times did the piece I remembertalking to you. Um , it might
have just been via email as itwas in the works and was
excited about the idea of it.
Mm-hmm . And youknow, it's one of those things
that I think about a lot islike the toll on the people who
are doing the work day to dayat the clinics, the clinics in
(19:33):
the states where they can nolonger provide the care that
they firmly believe in. Andjust like, I just think of how
wearying that would be to me,to have to tell people I can't
help them or here are the waysI can help you, but I can't
give you what you need rightnow, but pass you on and hope
(19:53):
you'll be able to get the care.
I just know that would justlike weigh so heavy on my soul
and would just, you know,everyone has their place in the
work and I talk about a lot oflike, I just don't think I
could do that. Like it would beone of those things that would
just, that would be the thingthat would break me is the day
to day not being able to givethe help that I firmly believed
(20:17):
in. So I can just imagine likehow helpful a blessing or like
having that pain acknowledgedand shared would be.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Yeah, there were a lot of tears. I mean these
rituals are, are often teary,but this was the first one that
we've done with a clinicdirectly impacted by the Dobbs
decision where they were nolonger able to provide abortion
care. And so it did have it ,it was heavy. And I think
(20:47):
because these folks work sohard, I mean they are so
committed, I don't know thatthey had had an opportunity to
reflect on what that lossreally meant in community with,
with folks. And so I hope itwas cathartic and maybe a
little bit healing just toexpress that, to have it heard
(21:10):
and witnessed so that they cancontinue to do all of the other
amazing work that they do dayin and day out. And I, I think
that's what I heard from thestaff was we just don't have
time to really reflect on whatthis has meant. And so giving
people just an opportunity topause and be I hope loved and
(21:30):
cared for and and celebratedand honored, I hope will be
healing for them. And the otherthing I failed to mention is we
always with these blessingsbring in local faith leaders
who are either connected to theclinic already or are
supportive of what the clinicis doing because we know that
coming in and doing a one timething like that is, is lovely,
but it's that ongoing supportthat we hope to build by
(21:53):
connecting local faith leadersto the clinic. And so that's my
hope is that they'll have somespiritual support moving
forward that's, that's local.
'cause we know it's gonna betough for everybody moving
forward. Even if you're in astate like Maryland , um,
you're receiving patients fromall over. It's, it's difficult
for everybody. And so it justfeels like this, this thing
(22:14):
that we can do that hopefullyis, is affirming for them,
gives them some time togetherand hopefully kind of recharges
them as they continue the work.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
Ugh . This is like giving me so much hope that I
feel like I needed.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
I'm glad
Speaker 1 (22:29):
because like
as, as we were talking earlier,
I was like starting to think ofall the things of things that
may be coming back that areusing faith as a weapon. Mm-hmm
. Instead of theblessing as you're talking
about, like just thinkingthrough like some of the like
religious , religious refusalstuff we will probably see
coming back and things likethat. And the story gave me a
(22:50):
lot of hope.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
I'm glad. It gives me hope too. And I, I think
that some of the work that I'vedone over, I don't know, let's
say the last four or five yearsafter experiencing extreme
burnout is just figuring out away to, to do this work with
joy and with hope and not likea cheap hope that bypasses the
(23:14):
immediate crisis, but that isstubborn and is a discipline
that we practice together.
Because I feel like if I can'tdo this work with joy, then I'm
not actually contributing tothe kind of world that I want
to live in. And so finding waysto, to keep that hope alive and
(23:37):
do things that are life-givingand joyful has been. It's, it's
not fluff, it's essential, it'scritical actually for me. And
I've found that it's reallyhelped me stay engaged in this
work. I mean, you and I havebeen doing this work for a long
time and there are people whohave been doing it a lot
longer. And it's easy I thinkto focus on all of the things
(23:57):
that are so horrible. Sofinding ways to like do the
work anyway and to do it with,with hope and joy is just, I,
I'm repeating myself now, butit just feels essential.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Yeah. I'm just thinking back through like when
we were first like workingtogether and you were like
across the street ish at theMethodist building so
long ago.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Yeah,
Speaker 1 (24:22):
I know. Yes.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
And we were babies.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Oh man. We were babies
Speaker 2 (24:30):
Back then. I definitely didn't have the
resilience that I do now. Imean, things used to get to me
so much and the opposition usedto get to me so much . I think
that's something I've beenthinking about too is like of
course when an article about aBaptist minister blessing an
abortion clinic makes it intothe times, the
(24:51):
opposition loves that. So myinbox, my phone phone , uh,
inbox and email inbox, I'vejust been full. So it's been
interesting to think back onhow that would've felt when we
started our, our work togetherversus now just finding ways
to, to deal with that and notlet it steal my joy.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Yeah. I feel like that's one of those things I
have found or have gotten tothe place of like, that isn't
the part that like stresses meor worries me. Like mine is
like letting my community downand like not doing, not doing
enough for the community orlike not providing the right
(25:32):
support or like gettingsomething wrong that is
unhelpful or like, those arethe things that like worry and
stress me versus what the antishave to say. Like whatever.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
No, that's probably the better thing to focus on.
And I just wanna affirm yourwork. I mean, your work is so
this podcast and , and more ofwhat you do, but repo's fight
back is such an amazingresource. So I hope you give
yourself your pats on the backbecause I, I
Speaker 1 (26:02):
Think I'm not as good at that, but I try
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Well we were just talking earlier about being
Midwestern. I don't think youall give yourself much credit
for your hard work, but Yeah, Ithat's part of it too is just
remembering that we all are incommunity with each other and I
think connecting with peoplethis way, especially like
working from home, justremembering the community of
people who are all doing theirparts and that all I have to do
(26:24):
is my part and as long as I domy part well then I'm doing
what I, what I need to do. AndI think , um, you know, RCRC is
over 50 years old and has hadlots of different
configurations and and sizes ofstaff and we're very small now.
And so it's been , uh, anotherdiscipline to go what is it
(26:47):
that we can uniquely do and nottry to feel like we have to do
everything. And that has feltso good, even as things are so
difficult externally. But justgetting crystal clear and I
found that the work is reallyimpactful when we can be super
focused on what it is that wecan uniquely do and what we
uniquely love to do. You know,and I know how much you love
(27:09):
podcasting, like
Speaker 1 (27:10):
Yeah. This has been, you know, I always tell the
story of like how I really gotpushed into this and it wasn't
necessarily, I remembersomething
Speaker 2 (27:16):
I , I remember us talking about this Yeah .
Speaker 1 (27:18):
, uh, it was
not on my bingo card as they
say and I've definitely pushedinto it. Yeah . But it is now
like my favorite part of myjob. Like I was able to build
it the way I wanted to. Andagain, that like wanting it to
be a service to the communitywas like core to the way I
built it, of bringing on all ofthese wonderful people that I
(27:41):
get to talk to get, to show offthe amazing network of people
that I am lucky enough to workwith. And that brings me so
much joy to get to talk toamazing people about the work
they are doing and the waysthey're fighting back. And
yeah, it's the thing that fillsme with like the hope and the
(28:02):
being crystal clear with myselfof I don't need to do all the
things. Like I , I am sure youhad some of this too, of like,
I have to be at this thing, Ihave to go to this, I have to
show up at the protest, I haveto do this or, and like really
letting that go and focusing onmm-hmm . These
(28:22):
are the things that I can dothat are helpful. I am doing so
many things already. My body atthis place isn't adding any
anything other than to myanxiety. So let it go. Oh my
gosh, yes. So I've reallygotten to be much better about
that and I still get the like Ishould be there, but like I'm
(28:44):
better at not listening to thatvoice telling me that I'm not
doing enough because I'm notgoing. That's so
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Good. I know the mean voice is in our heads,
, anxiety driven , meanvoice. I have one of those too
. And
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Yeah, I refer to it as my statler in Waldorf. They
just like heckle me a lot.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
. Well,
getting back to like, just
thinking about spirituality andall of this, you know, I'm, I'm
big on people knowing withinthemselves what they need and
that includes access toabortion or really anything.
Yeah . And I think sometimesfor me, I have to work really
hard on creating the space totune into that inner voice. And
(29:24):
as someone who suffers fromanxiety that the urge to do all
the time and do right now canreally cloud my ability to hear
that voice. And so moving intothis year 2025, I'm like, I
wanna build a more resilientnervous system and that
requires me to take time to bequiet and not be doing all of
(29:46):
the time. I mean, this is abasic thing y'all, but I , I
have really lost sight of itand so I'm, I'm working really
hard on creating that quiet andfor me that is like connecting
with my spirituality. 'cause Ithink that divine inner wisdom
is, is already there. It's justcreating like the conditions to
hear it. So it sounds likeyou're doing a similar, similar
(30:07):
thing in your world and gosh,my forties have been great for
setting boundaries,
Speaker 1 (30:11):
. Yeah. I
have to say similarly, my goal
for this year is to meditatemore. So like Yes. Kind of
getting that quiet Yes . Andlike shutting all that
extraneous out.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Yes. Yeah. And just being, having an awareness of
the voice that's talking toyou. You know, I think
sometimes I forget that that's,I don't have to listen to that
voice. I can actually say, youknow what, I hear you but I'm
not gonna let you dictate how Ispend my time and energy. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
And it's hard and it's like, and it's hard. I'm
sure it's always going to behard and I'm sure this is a
path I will continue to be on.
Um, but I'm really yeah. Tryingto not listen to them as much.
That's
Speaker 2 (30:51):
So good. Meditation is such a good practice. I'm,
I've recently gotten back intoit too after taking a little
bit of a break and I'm like,why did I stop this ? I
know this is so important. It's
Speaker 1 (31:02):
Still like you need to get into the habit again.
And I'm trying to get into thehabit, the
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Yes. Yeah. Same. So we can check in with each other
in a few months, see how we'redoing with that. But
Speaker 1 (31:12):
One of my cats, I don't know if it's like the
energy I give off when I'mdoing it or what is like, she
comes and like gets in my faceand is like when
Speaker 2 (31:21):
You're meditating
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Yes. and
like, I need attention right
now. Thank you . Thank
Speaker 2 (31:25):
You . That's funny.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
I was like, you are so unhelpful. .
Speaker 2 (31:28):
That's very unhelpful.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
Okay, before we wrap up, you know, we always do like
what, how can people getinvolved? What they can they
do? So there isn't maybenecessarily a specific action,
but like how can people bringtheir faith to, to what they're
doing in trying to fight backfor reproductive rights? Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
I always encourage people if you're, if you're
starting from kind of thebeginning of this is just to
ask yourself what were themessages that I got either from
the faith community I was partof, if you were part of one or
just from faith communitiesaround you and, and just be
crystal clear about what , whatthey are because I think
(32:11):
sometimes we can internalizethem and not even realize it.
And so I would start there justlike interrogating where do
they come from and is thatsomething that I still believe
and if so, do I still want tocontinue with that or do I
wanna challenge it? So I thinkthat's, it's just to start kind
of internally with what are themessages I got and do I want
some different ones? And in mybook a Complicated Choice, I
(32:34):
talk people through thatprocess if you want another
resource and also just to , and
Speaker 1 (32:39):
It's a really good book.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
Oh thank you. Uh, it's an abortion storytelling
book. So I think one of thebest ways that we can, we can
like think about our faith isreally the core tenet of our
faith. No matter what you'repart of is compassion and love
for one another. And I thinkthe way that we start that is
just learning about people'sexperiences. So learn about
(33:00):
people's reproductive lives,read some abortion stories.
There are great resources, I'msure you've linked to shout
your abortion exhale's, got adatabase of stories and just
kind of immerse yourself andthink about like what it's like
for other people. And I thinkreally starting from there will
help guide your next steps.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
Well Katie , as always, it is such a pleasure
to talk to you. I always feellucky to have you on the
podcast and to have you as afriend. So thank you for being
here.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Aw , I agree. It feels so good to reconnect.
Let's not let three years passbefore we do this .
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
Okay y'all, I hope you enjoyed my conversation
with Katie and you know, nextweek we're gonna be starting
the new administration, so makesure to rest and take care of
yourself. It's gonna be a lotbeing thrown back into that.
You know, make sure that youare taking time and space for
yourself, not trying to do allthe things we are going to
(34:00):
have. There's gonna be a lot ofthings happening right away
around our issues and we willcover them as they come up. But
next week we're gonna have aconversation looking back on
last year because it was the30th anniversary of the
Reproductive Justice movementand the International
Conference on Population andDevelopment. So I'm really
excited for that conversation'cause it's, we do a little
(34:21):
look back and a little lookforward and visioning around
reproductive justice. So it's ,um, I feel , it felt like a
hopeful conversation and itfelt like a really important
episode to have come out theday after the inauguration. So
make sure to check that out.
Okay, I will see you all nextweek. If you have any
questions, comments, or topicsyou would like us to cover,
(34:42):
always feel free to shoot me anemail. You can reach me at
jenny JNI e@reproback.com oryou can find us on social
media. We're at Repro Fightback on Facebook and Twitter or
re Pros FB on Instagram. If youlove our podcast and wanna make
sure more people find it, takethe time to rate and review us
(35:02):
on your favorite podcastplatform. Or if you wanna make
sure to support the podcast,you can also donate on our
website at regrow fightback com. Thanks all .
Welcome to Repro Fight Back a podcast on all
things related to sexual andreproductive health rights and
justice. Hi re pros . How'severybody doing? I'm your host
Jenny Wetter , and my pronounsare she her. See y'all. I am
still healing from , uh, myallergies being so out of
(00:23):
whack. I am mostly better. Mycough is still lingering a
little bit and I'm still alittle stuffy every once in a
while , but like I feel a lotbetter. I think I sound better
too, but I think I still have alittle bit of the, the , you
can tell I've been coughing andI'm a little stuffy, but, but I
feel a lot better, so that'sgood. And so mostly I'm, you
(00:44):
know, recovering from the curseof my holidays. But you know,
other than the, the allergieslike my broken toe and tailbone
are still healing my toe, likeI honestly, I don't really
think about it. It was like mylittle pinky toe. Um, so unless
I like bump it on something ortry to move it too much, like
(01:05):
then I can tell like that it'sstill healing. But , um, my
tailbone is still in a badplace, so it's uh, just waiting
for it to heal and it's justreally uncomfortable, you know,
sitting and having to readjustall the time to take the
pressure off. And it's just alot. I'm ready for it . I'm
ready for it to get better.
(01:26):
Let's see. Oh yeah, last weekwe had snow in DC which was
exciting. We got like six toseven inches, which is a lot
for DC Uh , so it was just likereally lovely last Monday to
sit and like watch it snowwhile I was sitting at home.
Nice warm and comfy, watchingall the kids like sledding on a
(01:46):
hill near me that I can seefrom my window. Like that was
so much fun to see them takingadvantage of the snow day,
especially on Monday. Like itwas so hard to work seeing like
all of these families out,having so much joy going
sledding, like it was , um, itwas a lot of fun to, to watch
that and made me think of likeback when I was a kid, I, I
(02:07):
like to tell a story of um , myparents' house was on , is on
the top of a hill and it's apretty wooded property. Um, but
when I was in I thinkkindergarten or preschool, but
I think kindergarten, my dadtook me out tobogganing down
the hill and so like he had tosteer, right? Like, 'cause we
had trees that you had to likego around, but we were out like
(02:27):
having a lot of fun. And thenon what ended up being our last
rundown, we hit a sheet of iceand so got thrown from the
toboggan and like went down therest of the hill like on my
face and ran into the housecrying like my face all scraped
up and yelling, mommy, mommy,daddy tried to kill me. No, I
(02:51):
wasn't dramatic. Uh,
So she's like trying to figureout like what happened and then
my dad comes in and he is likepicking Breyers off of his hat
and his hair and uh, told herwhat happened and he got thrown
the other way and ended up intothe knot like part of the woods
that I isn't groomed. So likeit had like briar bushes and
(03:13):
stuff. I dunno , it just mademe think of that and like it
was just such a silly memory ofuh, being out and having fun
with my dad. Let's see whatelse is going on? Oh yeah, just
thinking of friends in LA whoare still dealing with all of
these fires, it is justdevastating to see what is
happening out there and all ofthe people who are being
(03:36):
impacted. Um, there are so manygreat , great resources
available. We'll make sure toinclude a link in our show
notes for a place that has themall in one spot. But I have
been donating to the LA areaFood Bank and the World Central
Kitchen to make sure thatpeople are able to get food.
But there are lots of greatoptions of organizations to
(03:57):
support out there to make surethat people are able to get
what they need. Um, I thinkwith that , maybe let's just
turn to this week's episode. Iam really excited we haven't
talked about Faith on thepodcast in a while and I
couldn't think of a betterperson to have on to have that
conversation than the wonderfulReverend Katie Zay with the
(04:17):
religious communities forReproductive Choice. She's a
friend and it's always lovelyto have her on to talk about
faith in Repro 'cause she'ssuch an important voice in that
movement. So with that, let'sgo to my conversation with
Katie . Hi Katie . Thank you somuch for being here.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Hi Jenny . I'm so glad to be back on the podcast.
It's been a while .
Speaker 1 (04:38):
I know. I feel like it has been so long and I was
gonna look back and see, but Ididn't. But it's still lovely
to have you.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
I think it , I'm gonna say 2021. Does that
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Sound right ? That feels like it can't be true,
but like it could
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Be, it could be
Speaker 1 (04:56):
No, it was your book. When did your book come
out it
Speaker 2 (04:58):
That long? Gosh .
Okay. 20 20 22. Okay . 2022.
Yeah . It
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Makes it feel like a tiny bit better. That
Speaker 2 (05:03):
That , that does sound better though now we're
in 2025, so now that's almostthree years ago.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Oh my goodness.
Okay. Well before we start ourconversation, would you like to
introduce yourself and includeyour pronouns?
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Sure. I'm Katie Zay . I use she her pronouns and I
am an ordained Baptist ministerand I serve as the CEO of the
religious community forReproductive Choice. I used to
be the Religious Coalition forReproductive Choice. We just
did a slight name change and wework at the intersection of
faith and reproductive freedom.
(05:35):
And I have been involved withthe organization since I was in
my early twenties. So it's beenquite a journey. Obviously it's
uh , an interesting time to bedoing this work, but it's
really an honor. And I live inthe Raleigh Durham area of
North Carolina.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Oh, wonderful. I I, the first time I did my intro I
was like, oh , uh, they changedtheir name and I had like this
big pause of like, what did itgo to? I
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Know it's just a slight tweak 'cause we feel
like coalition and communityhave very different feelings.
Yeah . And when we were formedin the seventies, coalition
really did make sense for, youknow, we were, we had
organizations, institutionsthat were part of us, but now
it's a lot more about justfinding like-minded people or
people who are interested inexploring their spirituality
(06:23):
around these issues. And wedon't want people to feel like
they have to be part ofanything formal to be in our
community. And so that slighttweak just feels like it
captures the heart of who weare in these times. So , um,
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Yeah, I really like it.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Good. Yeah, I like it too. But I still have to
stop myself and habit .
Speaker 1 (06:41):
It's
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Still new The habit . It's the habit. And when
you've been saying somethingfor like 20 years
it's hard to change it.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Well and like even the same initial, so it's like
yeah , it's our crc like
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Yes. Which makes things easier and more
difficult 'cause it's such aslight change. But yes,
community is um, definitely whowe are.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Well I am always happy to have you on but like I
said, it's been a while sinceyou've been on, but it's also I
feel like been a while sinceI've had someone to come on the
podcast to talk about faith inRepro. And so it feels like a
really good opportunity to takea moment and do that and also
just like take a little bit ofa step back from like what's
(07:22):
happening and talk about, youknow, so much in the past the
conversation around faith andrepro has been focused on the
antis and not having that , uh,having the conversation that
there's so much of a morediverse voice in the faith
community when it comes tothese issues. So I'd really
(07:43):
love to hear your thoughts onthat. 'cause I know you , this
is something you have thoughtabout and worked on a lot.
Yeah,
Speaker 2 (07:49):
I'm not totally sure where to start, so I'm just
gonna go with what my gut says.
And I , I think part of whathas changed even in the last
couple of years since wetalked, I mean there's been a
lot, but I think the precisionof language around our
opposition has gotten better.
And by that I mean people aretalking about Christian
(08:10):
nationalism in a way that theyweren't a few years ago. And
really being crystal clear thatthere is political
infrastructure and a movementthat co-ops Christian language
for a political agenda, a partof which is to be anti-abortion
and other things. But more thanthat it's just kind of
(08:30):
anti-free democracy. Um, so Ithink being more crystal clear
when we talk about the antisand who is in a position of
power, we're really talkingabout Christian nationalism. So
I think that's helpful just tohave that language and framing
that we're not talking aboutall Christians, we're talking
about a very specific kind ofgroup of people who are
(08:51):
politically motivated. Sothat's helpful. So in addition
to that, just talking about howyes, there's so much diversity
within all faith traditionsreally around issues of
reproductive freedom withinChristianity, within Judaism, I
mean with any major religionthere are folks, just like
anything else, there are gonnabe people who have a wide
(09:14):
spectrum of , of opinion andthere might be official
teachings of a , of a faith,but even those usually have
some diversity. And thatdoesn't mean that the
individual people who are partof any faith tradition
subscribe to those specificbeliefs, right? Like people
have their own opinions aboutthings. So it's a lot more
complicated than what we haveseen historically in the media.
(09:35):
It's a lot more complicatedthan that and more nuanced. And
what we know from Pew researchis that a majority of people of
faith do support access toabortion care has been true for
a long time. There are somefaith groups where that isn't
true. But among mainlineProtestants, members of Jewish
faith, a lot of Catholics, Imean it's polling shows that
(09:58):
that people have faced supportlegal abortion. And I think
since Dobbs we've really seenwhat that looks like,
especially when we're lookingat ballot initiatives and
things. You know, like peoplein general
supportive of legal abortionand other reproductive health
issues. And so I think we'restarting to show more nuanced
(10:21):
view again and speaking back tothat dominant white Christian
nationalist narrative that saysto be a person of faith means
you have to be anti-choiceamong other things and really
nuancing that and pushing backagainst that because that's
never been true and it'scertainly not true now. Yeah,
Speaker 1 (10:38):
I think you're right. Like there was
definitely the, like someonewho was raised Catholic like
that the US Conference ofCatholic bishops spoke for all
Catholics. Right. Which is nottrue. Right? And so there was
the really that loss of likegranularity of like people are
individuals, people bring theirwhole selves to whatever
(10:58):
they're doing and you know, youmay not agree with the teaching
on everything. You may haveyour own opinions, your faith
may bring you to see itdifferently than the way that
it is being taught or the waythat people at the top are
talking about it. And I thinkyou're starting to see some of
(11:19):
that come out more publicly,right? Like that had always
been yes true, but like mm-hmm
publicly. You're starting to Ithink, hear those voices in a
way that you hadn't in a longtime.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
I think that's right. The people are looking
for new and different ways toexpress their faith beliefs
around these issues. And Ithink that's part of the work
of RCRC and my own personalwork has been how do I help
people? And I , you know, I'mordering Christian Minister so
that's the framework that Iknow best, but how do I give
folks who maybe have never,never heard a religiously
(11:55):
supported argument for beingpro-choice or however you wanna
frame it. Like giving peopleways for them to enter into
that conversation with theirfaith values. Because I , I
think sometimes people justdon't necessarily have the
language they don't know how toarticulate it, or as I often
talk about, are struggling withtheir internalized abortion
(12:15):
stigma and need to wrestle withthat so that they can speak
authentically from their faith,from from their own lived
experience around these issues.
I think sometimes it really isjust a matter of giving people
language.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Oh man, that all feels so true. Just like
thinking through again going tolike Catholic school and stuff
and just being in thatenvironment of like all of that
internalized stigma around, Imean, not just abortion, right?
Like right. It was
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Being an embodied human
had sex
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Ed from a nun. Like it was not helpful as I came to
navigating my like sexualexperiences as I was older
because I was not given thetools I needed to like make
decisions and the ways thatthat can be harmful and mm-hmm
stigma that like is attached toall of it that is so hard to
(13:09):
shake off. Yep . And um, yeah,I don't know . That's just one
of the things, there wassomething else that really
stuck but apparently not thatwell. 'cause I got, I really
hooked onto the stigma part,
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Well I think it's a good piece to get stuck on and
it does function to silence usfrom talking about it. And
again, if we're we don't havepractice talking about these
things, it can feel that muchmore uncomfortable and that
read AST to talk about it . The
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Shame. Yeah . The Catholic Irish shame
Speaker 2 (13:37):
politically too. I mean, Ithink when, when people do not
feel like they can share withintheir, their families or their
communities about theirreproductive experiences than
when there are political issuesthat impact those people don't
feel like they can talk aboutit from a lived experience.
Which I think is so often howpeople shift their viewpoints
(14:00):
is learning about people'sstories and hearing about their
experiences. And , um, ifpeople aren't sharing those, I
think it's just that muchharder for people to remember
that these issues are deeplyhuman, deeply individual and
personal. And so combating thestigma and the silence I think
is so key to us getting freetogether.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
I love how you talk about your faith bringing you
to be pro-abortion and how yourfaith brought you here. Yeah .
And I think that is again,another conversation that I
think people don't hear asoften. Yeah . And it's so
important. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
I mean I love to share that I received my call
to ministry within the walls ofan abortion clinic and that is
really when I felt my call todo this work was holding
patients' hands and being withthe doctors and nurses and the
staff who are so caring andkind and doing the sacred work
and then experiencing what itfelt like to walk into a
(14:58):
clinic, being perceived as apatient there to have an
abortion. And they were allthese religious people, you
know, we shared a faith and Ithought, my goodness, this is,
that is not what we're calledto do. Stand outside and yell
at people. We're called to dothis compassionate life-giving
work that the, the clinic staffwas doing. And so, yeah, for
me, I've never felt a conflictbetween my faith in this work.
(15:21):
It is so they're so deeplyintertwined that I can't
imagine one without the other.
And that might be unique, but Ithink it's uniquely beautiful
too.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
Yeah. I always love hearing you talk about it
'cause I do think it is, it'sunique, but it's, I don't know,
it feels just like so hopefulto me hearing that. And you
know, the reason we decided tohave this conversation today
was talking about the work thatyou all did recently with
blessings at an abortionclinic, which again, just so
(15:53):
beautiful and so hopeful. Wouldyou like to talk about that
experience?
Speaker 2 (15:57):
I, I would love to.
This has been part of our CRCswork for the last, maybe not
quite a decade, but for, forsome years now where we are
invited into spaces withpeople. Sometimes it is to
bless the opening of a newclinic. We've done several of
those. Sometimes it's to honoran anniversary of a clinic.
(16:18):
Sometimes it's simply just toprovide spiritual support in
places where it's extremelydifficult to provide abortion
care, which is more and morethe part of the country now.
But this one was so unique andinteresting and I would love to
share the story of the, theclinic. So we're actually two
because I think it's just sucha testament to where we are
(16:40):
into the resilience of peoplewho work in this space. So the,
the two clinics that we , um,that we blessed the Women's
Health Center of Maryland andthe Women's Health Center of
West Virginia, and I don't knowif you've heard of these
clinics, but the clinic in WestVirginia had been open for a
long time, for decades, I think50 years. And of course after
(17:01):
the Dobbs decision, they wereno longer able to provide
abortion care. And they do alot of other things in that
community. They do , uh, harmreduction care, they do gender
affirming care, reproductivehealthcare , but they lost
their ability to provideabortion care because of the
law. And so they looked andjust across the border in
(17:22):
Maryland, there was a medicaloffice that they raised money
to, to buy and to open a clinicjust across the border from
West Virginia in Maryland wherethey knew they would be able to
provide abortion care. And sothat facility has been open for
about a year and a half at thispoint. And so we were in
contact with them about doing ablessing for the Maryland
(17:45):
clinic, but as we were talking,I was like, we've gotta figure
out a way to include the WestVirginia clinic. And so these
two staffs had never met eachother. It's about three and a
half hours between the two. Andfiguring out a way to honor the
grief and the legacy and theongoing work of the West
Virginia Clinic while alsocelebrating their resilience
(18:08):
and opening a clinic inMaryland and that they're able
to provide abortion care there,like trying to hold all of
those things. I think that'swhere faith can do a really
good job and spirituality canhold a lot of different things
at the same time. And so wework together with the staffs
and we brought the WestVirginia staff to Maryland and
(18:30):
we did a , a blessing of thebuilding and an honoring of the
grief. And we had a member ofthe clergy consultation service
on abortion there with us,which if you all don't know,
was a network of clergy pre-Roethat helps people get access to
abortion care. So it was justso powerful to have all of
these people in the same room,to give them space to just
(18:52):
express their mixed feelings. Alot of grief, a lot of joy,
everything in between. And wehad the honor of having the New
York Times come and capturethat and, and share that story
visually and through words inthe times back in December.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
I was so excited when I saw you post it that the
Times did the piece I remembertalking to you. Um , it might
have just been via email as itwas in the works and was
excited about the idea of it.
Mm-hmm
that I think about a lot islike the toll on the people who
are doing the work day to dayat the clinics, the clinics in
(19:33):
the states where they can nolonger provide the care that
they firmly believe in. Andjust like, I just think of how
wearying that would be to me,to have to tell people I can't
help them or here are the waysI can help you, but I can't
give you what you need rightnow, but pass you on and hope
(19:53):
you'll be able to get the care.
I just know that would justlike weigh so heavy on my soul
and would just, you know,everyone has their place in the
work and I talk about a lot oflike, I just don't think I
could do that. Like it would beone of those things that would
just, that would be the thingthat would break me is the day
to day not being able to givethe help that I firmly believed
(20:17):
in. So I can just imagine likehow helpful a blessing or like
having that pain acknowledgedand shared would be.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Yeah, there were a lot of tears. I mean these
rituals are, are often teary,but this was the first one that
we've done with a clinicdirectly impacted by the Dobbs
decision where they were nolonger able to provide abortion
care. And so it did have it ,it was heavy. And I think
(20:47):
because these folks work sohard, I mean they are so
committed, I don't know thatthey had had an opportunity to
reflect on what that lossreally meant in community with,
with folks. And so I hope itwas cathartic and maybe a
little bit healing just toexpress that, to have it heard
(21:10):
and witnessed so that they cancontinue to do all of the other
amazing work that they do dayin and day out. And I, I think
that's what I heard from thestaff was we just don't have
time to really reflect on whatthis has meant. And so giving
people just an opportunity topause and be I hope loved and
(21:30):
cared for and and celebratedand honored, I hope will be
healing for them. And the otherthing I failed to mention is we
always with these blessingsbring in local faith leaders
who are either connected to theclinic already or are
supportive of what the clinicis doing because we know that
coming in and doing a one timething like that is, is lovely,
but it's that ongoing supportthat we hope to build by
(21:53):
connecting local faith leadersto the clinic. And so that's my
hope is that they'll have somespiritual support moving
forward that's, that's local.
'cause we know it's gonna betough for everybody moving
forward. Even if you're in astate like Maryland , um,
you're receiving patients fromall over. It's, it's difficult
for everybody. And so it justfeels like this, this thing
(22:14):
that we can do that hopefullyis, is affirming for them,
gives them some time togetherand hopefully kind of recharges
them as they continue the work.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
Ugh . This is like giving me so much hope that I
feel like I needed.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
I'm glad
Speaker 1 (22:29):
I was like starting to think ofall the things of things that
may be coming back that areusing faith as a weapon. Mm-hmm
about, like just thinkingthrough like some of the like
religious , religious refusalstuff we will probably see
coming back and things likethat. And the story gave me a
(22:50):
lot of hope.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
I'm glad. It gives me hope too. And I, I think
that some of the work that I'vedone over, I don't know, let's
say the last four or five yearsafter experiencing extreme
burnout is just figuring out away to, to do this work with
joy and with hope and not likea cheap hope that bypasses the
(23:14):
immediate crisis, but that isstubborn and is a discipline
that we practice together.
Because I feel like if I can'tdo this work with joy, then I'm
not actually contributing tothe kind of world that I want
to live in. And so finding waysto, to keep that hope alive and
(23:37):
do things that are life-givingand joyful has been. It's, it's
not fluff, it's essential, it'scritical actually for me. And
I've found that it's reallyhelped me stay engaged in this
work. I mean, you and I havebeen doing this work for a long
time and there are people whohave been doing it a lot
longer. And it's easy I thinkto focus on all of the things
(23:57):
that are so horrible. Sofinding ways to like do the
work anyway and to do it with,with hope and joy is just, I,
I'm repeating myself now, butit just feels essential.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Yeah. I'm just thinking back through like when
we were first like workingtogether and you were like
across the street ish at theMethodist building
long ago.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Yeah,
Speaker 1 (24:22):
I know. Yes.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
And we were babies
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Oh man. We were babies
Speaker 2 (24:30):
Back then. I definitely didn't have the
resilience that I do now. Imean, things used to get to me
so much and the opposition usedto get to me so much . I think
that's something I've beenthinking about too is like of
course when an article about aBaptist minister blessing an
abortion clinic makes it intothe times
(24:51):
opposition loves that. So myinbox, my phone phone , uh,
inbox and email inbox, I'vejust been full. So it's been
interesting to think back onhow that would've felt when we
started our, our work togetherversus now just finding ways
to, to deal with that and notlet it steal my joy.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Yeah. I feel like that's one of those things I
have found or have gotten tothe place of like, that isn't
the part that like stresses meor worries me. Like mine is
like letting my community downand like not doing, not doing
enough for the community orlike not providing the right
(25:32):
support or like gettingsomething wrong that is
unhelpful or like, those arethe things that like worry and
stress me versus what the antishave to say. Like whatever.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
No, that's probably the better thing to focus on.
And I just wanna affirm yourwork. I mean, your work is so
this podcast and , and more ofwhat you do, but repo's fight
back is such an amazingresource. So I hope you give
yourself your pats on the backbecause I, I
Speaker 1 (26:02):
Think I'm not as good at that, but I try
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Well we were just talking earlier about being
Midwestern. I don't think youall give yourself much credit
for your hard work, but Yeah, Ithat's part of it too is just
remembering that we all are incommunity with each other and I
think connecting with peoplethis way, especially like
working from home, justremembering the community of
people who are all doing theirparts and that all I have to do
(26:24):
is my part and as long as I domy part well then I'm doing
what I, what I need to do. AndI think , um, you know, RCRC is
over 50 years old and has hadlots of different
configurations and and sizes ofstaff and we're very small now.
And so it's been , uh, anotherdiscipline to go what is it
(26:47):
that we can uniquely do and nottry to feel like we have to do
everything. And that has feltso good, even as things are so
difficult externally. But justgetting crystal clear and I
found that the work is reallyimpactful when we can be super
focused on what it is that wecan uniquely do and what we
uniquely love to do. You know,and I know how much you love
(27:09):
podcasting, like
Speaker 1 (27:10):
Yeah. This has been, you know, I always tell the
story of like how I really gotpushed into this and it wasn't
necessarily, I remembersomething
Speaker 2 (27:16):
I , I remember us talking about this Yeah .
Speaker 1 (27:18):
say and I've definitely pushedinto it. Yeah . But it is now
like my favorite part of myjob. Like I was able to build
it the way I wanted to. Andagain, that like wanting it to
be a service to the communitywas like core to the way I
built it, of bringing on all ofthese wonderful people that I
(27:41):
get to talk to get, to show offthe amazing network of people
that I am lucky enough to workwith. And that brings me so
much joy to get to talk toamazing people about the work
they are doing and the waysthey're fighting back. And
yeah, it's the thing that fillsme with like the hope and the
(28:02):
being crystal clear with myselfof I don't need to do all the
things. Like I , I am sure youhad some of this too, of like,
I have to be at this thing, Ihave to go to this, I have to
show up at the protest, I haveto do this or, and like really
letting that go and focusing onmm-hmm
(28:22):
are the things that I can dothat are helpful. I am doing so
many things already. My body atthis place isn't adding any
anything other than to myanxiety. So let it go. Oh my
gosh, yes. So I've reallygotten to be much better about
that and I still get the like Ishould be there, but like I'm
(28:44):
better at not listening to thatvoice telling me that I'm not
doing enough because I'm notgoing. That's so
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Good. I know the mean voice is in our heads,
. And
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Yeah, I refer to it as my statler in Waldorf. They
just like heckle me a lot.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
thinking about spirituality andall of this, you know, I'm, I'm
big on people knowing withinthemselves what they need and
that includes access toabortion or really anything.
Yeah . And I think sometimesfor me, I have to work really
hard on creating the space totune into that inner voice. And
(29:24):
as someone who suffers fromanxiety that the urge to do all
the time and do right now canreally cloud my ability to hear
that voice. And so moving intothis year 2025, I'm like, I
wanna build a more resilientnervous system and that
requires me to take time to bequiet and not be doing all of
(29:46):
the time. I mean, this is abasic thing y'all, but I , I
have really lost sight of itand so I'm, I'm working really
hard on creating that quiet andfor me that is like connecting
with my spirituality. 'cause Ithink that divine inner wisdom
is, is already there. It's justcreating like the conditions to
hear it. So it sounds likeyou're doing a similar, similar
(30:07):
thing in your world and gosh,my forties have been great for
setting boundaries,
Speaker 1 (30:11):
for this year is to meditatemore. So like Yes. Kind of
getting that quiet Yes . Andlike shutting all that
extraneous out.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Yes. Yeah. And just being, having an awareness of
the voice that's talking toyou. You know, I think
sometimes I forget that that's,I don't have to listen to that
voice. I can actually say, youknow what, I hear you but I'm
not gonna let you dictate how Ispend my time and energy. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
And it's hard and it's like, and it's hard. I'm
sure it's always going to behard and I'm sure this is a
path I will continue to be on.
Um, but I'm really yeah. Tryingto not listen to them as much.
That's
Speaker 2 (30:51):
So good. Meditation is such a good practice. I'm,
I've recently gotten back intoit too after taking a little
bit of a break and I'm like,why did I stop this
know this is so important. It's
Speaker 1 (31:02):
Still like you need to get into the habit again.
And I'm trying to get into thehabit, the
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Yes. Yeah. Same. So we can check in with each other
in a few months, see how we'redoing with that. But
Speaker 1 (31:12):
One of my cats, I don't know if it's like the
energy I give off when I'mdoing it or what is like, she
comes and like gets in my faceand is like when
Speaker 2 (31:21):
You're meditating
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Yes.
now. Thank you . Thank
Speaker 2 (31:25):
You . That's funny.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
I was like, you are so unhelpful.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
That's very unhelpful.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
Okay, before we wrap up, you know, we always do like
what, how can people getinvolved? What they can they
do? So there isn't maybenecessarily a specific action,
but like how can people bringtheir faith to, to what they're
doing in trying to fight backfor reproductive rights? Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
I always encourage people if you're, if you're
starting from kind of thebeginning of this is just to
ask yourself what were themessages that I got either from
the faith community I was partof, if you were part of one or
just from faith communitiesaround you and, and just be
crystal clear about what , whatthey are because I think
(32:11):
sometimes we can internalizethem and not even realize it.
And so I would start there justlike interrogating where do
they come from and is thatsomething that I still believe
and if so, do I still want tocontinue with that or do I
wanna challenge it? So I thinkthat's, it's just to start kind
of internally with what are themessages I got and do I want
some different ones? And in mybook a Complicated Choice, I
(32:34):
talk people through thatprocess if you want another
resource and also just to , and
Speaker 1 (32:39):
It's a really good book.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
Oh thank you. Uh, it's an abortion storytelling
book. So I think one of thebest ways that we can, we can
like think about our faith isreally the core tenet of our
faith. No matter what you'repart of is compassion and love
for one another. And I thinkthe way that we start that is
just learning about people'sexperiences. So learn about
(33:00):
people's reproductive lives,read some abortion stories.
There are great resources, I'msure you've linked to shout
your abortion exhale's, got adatabase of stories and just
kind of immerse yourself andthink about like what it's like
for other people. And I thinkreally starting from there will
help guide your next steps.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
Well Katie , as always, it is such a pleasure
to talk to you. I always feellucky to have you on the
podcast and to have you as afriend. So thank you for being
here.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Aw , I agree. It feels so good to reconnect.
Let's not let three years passbefore we do this
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
Okay y'all, I hope you enjoyed my conversation
with Katie and you know, nextweek we're gonna be starting
the new administration, so makesure to rest and take care of
yourself. It's gonna be a lotbeing thrown back into that.
You know, make sure that youare taking time and space for
yourself, not trying to do allthe things we are going to
(34:00):
have. There's gonna be a lot ofthings happening right away
around our issues and we willcover them as they come up. But
next week we're gonna have aconversation looking back on
last year because it was the30th anniversary of the
Reproductive Justice movementand the International
Conference on Population andDevelopment. So I'm really
excited for that conversation'cause it's, we do a little
(34:21):
look back and a little lookforward and visioning around
reproductive justice. So it's ,um, I feel , it felt like a
hopeful conversation and itfelt like a really important
episode to have come out theday after the inauguration. So
make sure to check that out.
Okay, I will see you all nextweek. If you have any
questions, comments, or topicsyou would like us to cover,
(34:42):
always feel free to shoot me anemail. You can reach me at
jenny JNI e@reproback.com oryou can find us on social
media. We're at Repro Fightback on Facebook and Twitter or
re Pros FB on Instagram. If youlove our podcast and wanna make
sure more people find it, takethe time to rate and review us
(35:02):
on your favorite podcastplatform. Or if you wanna make
sure to support the podcast,you can also donate on our
website at regrow fightback com. Thanks all .
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