May 1, 2025 • 35 mins
The majority of people in the U.S. support abortion, yet access has been decimated around the country. That kind of disparity deserves evidence-based, practiced commentary, and we can think of no better doctors to share their experiences than Dr. Beverly Gray and Dr. Jonas Swartz, OBGYNs and co-hosts of the podcast Outlawed. They sit down to talk with us about being on the frontlines of abortion care in the U.S. at the moment and how their experience contributed to the desire to pursue their podcast.
Both Dr. Gray and Dr. Swartz dispel myths on mic and in person, including that childbirth is safer than abortion (abortion is less risky than carrying a pregnancy to term), that fertility is impacted by abortion (it isn’t), that abortions can be reversed (they can’t), or that abortion can occur after birth (they can’t). These myths can influence policy. In addition, Drs. Gray and Swartz interview incredible patients, providers, and advocates about their journeys in sexual and reproductive health. If you are interested in hearing information and stories from OBGYNs themselves, find Outlawed here.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to Repro Fight Back a podcast on all
things related to sexual andreproductive health rights and
justice. Hi re Pros . I'm yourhost Jenny Wetter , and my
pronouns are she her. See y'all. I am so excited to have a
special bonus episode for youtoday. We did a special
crossover episode with theOutlawed podcast. Today on our
(00:26):
on repro fight Back, you canhear my conversation with Dr.
Beverly Gray and Dr. JonasSchwartz talking all about
myths that they encounteraround sexual and reproductive
health. It's such a wonderfulconversation. I had so much fun
talking to them. And then whenyou were done listening to this
podcast, you should go checkout Outlawed and their
(00:46):
interview with me talking aboutsome of the things that are
happening right now. We talkabout Tala , we talk about the
MiFi lawsuit, we talk about the50 state report card. We talk
about a whole host of things.
So once you are done listeningto my interview with Beverly
and Jonas, go check out theirconversation with me on
Outlawed. And with that, let'sget to our interview. Hi, Dr.
(01:10):
Gray. Hi, Dr. Schwartz. Thankyou so much for being here
today.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Hi, Jenny . We're so excited to be here.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Hi, Jenny . Thanks for having us. So
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Before we get started, would you like to take
a quick second and introduceyourselves , um, and then we
will get going.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Yeah. Um, so I am Bev Gray. My pronouns are she
her, and I am an O-B-G-Y-N inNorth Carolina. I have , uh,
lived here pretty much my wholelife and I live and work in
Durham, North Carolina now. AndJonas and I started a podcast
back in the fall calledOutlawed and really diving into
(01:44):
stories and science of abortioncare and abortion access in
north in , in the wholecountry, really. But we've
talked about North Carolina andVirginia, but also talked to
folks from all around. And ,um, it was a really great
experience and we've learned a
Speaker 3 (01:58):
Lot. And I'm Jonas Schwartz and my pronouns are
he, him. And I also am an OBGYN who grew up in North
Carolina, though in a differentpart of the state than Bev as
my boss. So that's how I gotinvolved in the podcast. Um,
yeah, outlaw has been afantastic way to, for us to
talk with people, askquestions, and think more
(02:19):
carefully in particular, aboutwhat we can do to improve the
conversation aroundreproductive healthcare and
abortion in particular. And ,um, get people thinking about
it and caring about it in atime when I think that's more
important than ever.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
First of all, I love your podcast and I'm so excited
to have y'all on. Would youwanna talk a little bit about
like what prompted you to startit? Like, I think there's so
much work that goes into apodcast, I can only assume
being OBGYNs and NorthCarolina, y'all are very busy
right now. So what prompted youto be like, Hey, let's start a
podcast on top of all of theother things?
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Yeah, I mean, that's a good question. I think our
families would probably ask thesame question, question, like ,
why you taking on an extra job?
Um, that's fine. When the Dobbsdecision happened, we were
lucky enough to collaboratewith an oral historian here at
Duke, and we started collecting, um, stories from providers
mainly in restricted states andstarted this oral history
(03:16):
archive. And as we were doingthat, we were hearing these
amazing stories. Jonas and Iare also like, we do a lot of
interviews with journalists andwe would do like this, like
heart wrenching interview, andthen they would take one
soundbite and we kept feelinglike, God, I wish they would
just tell the whole story. Liketell more of the story. Yeah .
Um, because there's more to itthan just soundbites . And so
(03:38):
some of the participants doingthose interviews in the oral
history were like, we want youto share our story more
broadly. Like, how are yougonna get this out there? And
so we um, well I sort of hadthis idea and we got some
funding through a private donor, um, to do the first season of
the podcast. And so we , um, weare, well, so I can speak for
(04:00):
myself. I don't know how I'mtechnologically challenged just
at baseline. Like you, like ittook us how long it takes 10
minutes to get the sound ready.
for today, and, and we're experienced with
this. So, you know, it's um,it's hard to learn a new task
when, you know, you've, you'velearned a lot of tasks in your
life. So , um, hiring , uh,Jane Marie and getting her on
(04:21):
the the podcast was awesome. Soshe's an experienced producer ,
uh, was a producer for thisAmerican Life for 10 years and
then now has her own podcast,the Dream . And she helped us
create something that we had noidea could be so cool. And so
she really created a sound andwas able to help us with some
(04:41):
of the interviews and we werejust really proud of what she
was able to help us make.
That's
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Awesome. I feel you on the like technical front,
like what I first started mine,it was very much like learning
on my own and then also drawingthe line of like, you can make
me learn some things, but I'mnot going to be our editor
because I have my other jobthat you want me to do on top .
I'm not adding more other, moreon top. So thank you. We will
hire an editor , .
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Yeah. I think that that was a challenge for us was
that we didn't even know thenames of what, of the people
who we needed to hire orinvolved. Oh yeah . And luckily
Jane was very generous with usjust saying producer over and
over again, even though she wasdoing all of these different
jobs. But it is, you know, atotally different field and
different types of expertise.
And so it, it really has takena whole group of people to, to
(05:30):
help make this work.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
So I really love, and one of the things y'all
have talked about on thepodcast is, is myths and like
kind of countering some of themyths that are out there. So
what are some of the myths thatyou've tried to dispel?
Speaker 3 (05:43):
I think one of the first ones that we've
frequently encounter and I hearfrom my patients is that
abortion isn't safe. And peopleoften think if asked that
childbirth is safer thanabortion, and that's just not
true. And we support people whowant to have a childbirth and
people who want to have anabortion. But the fact of the
(06:04):
matter is that it is less riskyto have an abortion in the
first trimester or in thesecond trimester, or even in
the third trimester than it isto carry a pregnancy to term.
And, but people come in reallyscared about having a
medication abortion or abouthaving a procedural abortion
because of what they've heardin the media. And I think it's
actually really hard to counterthat. Um, it's even, you know,
(06:26):
just repeating it over and overagain when people have heard a
lot of propaganda about thedangers of abortion or a lot of
information about how abortionneeds to be regulated, I think
it's hard to fight against thatand say, all right, well this
is actually 14 times safer thanchildbirth and you're avoiding
all of the risks of ongoingpregnancy. And so this is a
safe thing to do. We can do itin a safe setting that's
(06:47):
comfortable for you. And so wereally try to repeat that both
for our patients and thenthrough the podcast.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
And I think related, a lot of people have this myth
that they're at risk ofinfertility with abortion,
which is again, a huge myth.
And I would say a lot of peopleare really worried like now
might not be the right time forthem to have a pregnancy, but
they're really worried, what ifI make a decision now that's
gonna affect future me? Andwhen they hear that, and you
(07:13):
know, some of , some of thefolks we care for get Care at a
crisis pregnancy center beforethey seek care in our clinic.
And so they've been kind ofpumped with these ideas of
misinformation. And so it takesa while to unravel that
sometimes and really to helppeople not be afraid of care
that's exceedingly safe.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Yeah. And I feel like the fertility one is when
you also see around birthcontrol. Like I feel like it's
been one of those that kind oflike comes and goes a little
bit. I remember it being reallybig when I was younger and then
it's, I feel like getting areal resurgence recently with
misinformation about itaffecting future fertility.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
Yeah, I think that conversation about birth
control, you're absolutelyright. I think it is having a
moment and is growing and youknow, I think it is important
for people to be able to telltheir stories, right? And I
think that's certainly what yousee in, or what I see in birth
control on social media now isthat people are, do have a
platform where they can sharetheir individual experiences in
a way that they maybe couldn'thave previously. But when it is
(08:11):
coupled with this idea that itis doing harm to people, then
that's really damaging becauseit scares people away from
using something that is helpfulfor the majority of people and
doesn't have that complicationfor the majority of people.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Well, I think the other thing that is we're
thinking about is how some ofthese myths then become policy
or impact, how policy is done.
Have you seen examples of that?
Speaker 2 (08:35):
So many, so many examples like Bill's , hyper
reregulating medication,abortion, when, you know, my
favorite story to tell aboutmedication abortion is that MFA
Pristine and Viagra at the sametime applied for approval
through the FDA and Viagra wasapproved in lightning speed for
the FDA , which was like twoyears. And it took four years
(08:56):
for Mifa Pristine to beapproved. Yet Mifa Pristine is
much safer than Viagra, and yetit's hyper regulated patients,
you know, have to go throughextra hoops to get it in a
clinic setting. And you know, Ithink all of those regulations
around Retone really are notabout safety. They're about
hindering people from gettingthe care that maybe they want
(09:18):
and need.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
So many of the bills are also named things like the
Protection of Women andChildren Act. Mm-hmm
. And thatmisnomer is powerful. And
because, you know, then whenyou vote against it, oh, you're
against the protection of womenand children. But it, you know,
they're just, it's just falsenames, but they are again,
really damaging. It's, it ispowerful to have , you know, a
(09:40):
name is powerful and people areconfused. Right. It's hard to
read the legislature . I havetrouble reading bills and
understanding what they, whatthey mean. And so the, you
know, when you have a titlelike that, it it's hard to
understand what what actuallyis contained.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Yeah. You definitely have that. And then you also
have things that they try tomake sound reasonable and like,
if you don't know all thedetails behind it, it , it can
be hard. I'm thinking backthrough like all the fights
were on like trap laws withlike admitting privileges and,
and like transfer arrangementarrangements and people
(10:17):
thinking like, oh yeah, no, thedoctors should totally have
admitting privileges at a localhospital without understanding
how those things work. And thathospitals don't just hand them
out on a silver platter toeverybody. Like Yeah . And so
you can have things that soundgood and sound like they're
protecting patient safety, butare actually just trying to
restrict care.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
We often will , um, talk about the report from the
national, well it's theformerly the Institute of
Medicine, right. This bigsystematic review, which
essentially concluded thatregulations to abortion, like
trap laws don't do anything tomake it safer. They only make
it more difficult to access.
Right. It already is reallysafe and we study it and we
(10:56):
regulate it really well as aprofession. And so these
outside laws are only making itharder and more expensive for
people to access.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
Or even just thinking about how with having
all of those , uh, laws passedbased on myths or that sound
good, it reinforces thatperception that abortion is not
safe.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
So like why would they be regulating it so much
if it wasn't unsafe? Yeah,
Speaker 2 (11:20):
No , I was talking to someone yesterday about we
have this forced biascounseling that we're required
to do with patients 72 hours inperson before they can seek
abortion care and they have toinitial every single line and
it has to be read to them by alicensed nurse or C physician ,
um, before they can have care.
And so even though some ofthese things that I'm reading
(11:43):
are derogatory not applicableto their situation or just
straight up offensive, I'mrequired to read it. And so I
was, you know, I was talking tosomeone yesterday, I was
thinking like, you know, allthe time I'm thinking like,
what do patients really think?
Do they think that, I believewhat I'm saying when I read
this, even if I preface it bysaying, this is required by the
(12:04):
state, we're gonna give you allthe information that's
necessary that you need. YetI'm required to tell patients
that even if the father of thebaby is gonna pay for your
abortion, he's still liable forchild support. Like, just like
these, these things that we'rerequired to say to people that
really are, you know, can getin between the relationship and
(12:24):
the trust. And there's always ,there's all already this like
mistrust of the medicalestablishment in the medical
system. And then if we have toread bias counseling that maybe
increases that mistrust. It's,it doesn't serve anyone
Speaker 3 (12:39):
And there's no other part of medicine where you have
to do that . Right. No one'srequiring a cardiologist to say
fake things before they carefor you. And it's really
confusing, right? You go intoan interaction with a
healthcare provider to get theinformation that you need about
the healthcare. You don'texpect them to be covering a
bunch of extraneous stuff thata legislator has said that they
have to cover.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
Yeah. I mean, it just also makes me think of
some of the things that stateswhere it got required to have
say around like medicationabortion and like abortion
reversal and things that arenot things and that are
harmful. Like I can't imaginedoctors being put in that
position.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Yeah. I mean it's when you have to read this
multiple times a day, you know,it just, it's, it's really
challenging. Yeah. Its
Speaker 3 (13:23):
Degrading, right?
It's degrading for you. It'sdegrading for the patient. And
I mean I , we do talk with ourcolleagues who in various
places about how they deal withthat, right? Like how do you
convey in this interaction,right ? This is the information
that you value and this is theinformation that you should not
value or that, you know,doesn't have an equal like
gravitas from me. I don't know.
(13:45):
Yeah . While following theletter of the law because we
were all really wanna make surethat we're following the
regulations. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Right? Like, we still have to be able to
provide care to people. And sowe, you know, doctors are
generally rule followers,right? So, you know, even if
it's a law that is contrary toevidence-based medicine,
contrary to our values or whatthe textbook says, like, we
have to follow the law.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
So why do you think some of these myths start to
take hold?
Speaker 2 (14:14):
I don't know. Like , let's, let's take an example.
So like the example of , um,abortion after birth . I think
that one took hold because itseems like this, it it was
starting to be propagated bypeople from very high positions
and you know, I think peoplethink, oh, well this is someone
(14:35):
that I believe and trust on allthese in all these other ways.
Why would they say something soinflammatory about this? It
must be true. Right? Like, andso I think that's, that's a
tough one. I don't know.
Speaker 3 (14:50):
I mean, so one thing that was surprising for me, and
I think for Bev too was howhard it was for us to define
some of the terms when we triedto, you know, like really
define talk about, all right ,well what is pregnancy and what
is abortion? And we understandthem , but they're hard to talk
about and hard to understand.
(15:11):
And I think the abortion afterbirth myth, right? It , it's
very evocative, right? Theimagery is very evocative, so
it's very useful if you opposeabortion and wanna galvanize
people to, to oppose it. Andit's hard to understand what
the difference between abortionlater in pregnancy and a birth
(15:33):
and , right. Like those are,those are concepts that can be
hard to understand, hard toexplain , um, and uncomfortable
to explain. And so I think thatthey take hold. I mean the
other, the other myth that Ithink about is the breast
cancer, you know, that there'san increased risk of breast
cancer after having had anabortion, which is again, a
myth is not true. And you know,part of the problem is that
there's been bad science,right? So people have conducted
(15:55):
studies in ways that they cameto a conclusion that was not
scientifically supported bybetter studies. And in some
cases those, like the data onabortion reversal, those papers
have been retracted in somecases they haven't. And so, you
know, if you look it up, youcan cite whatever you want or
you can find something andthen, you know, then either
(16:17):
legislators repeat it orsometimes it's people who want
to oppose abortion. Sometimesit's people who are
well-intentioned but havelooked it up and don't evaluate
the evidence well, but I , Ithink it, it creates this sort
of problematic self-fulfillingprophecy, right? I believe
there's a study of severalyears ago in Utah about that
looked at, because their , atthe time their state mandated
(16:37):
counseling required that theymentioned a risk of breast
cancer. And I may be gettingthe state wrong, but I believe
it was Utah. And they did, youknow, people's reactions to
that information because it wasin the state mandated
counseling was of belief,right? So it's hard to counter
that. Yeah . If it's in the, ifit's baked into the procedure
that you're getting or thecounseling that you're getting.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
I also think the anti-abortion folks are really
good at naming things,evocative things that then like
get repeated and then becomelike the media's name for the
thing. Like how often do wehear about, you know, bans
around six weeks being calledheartbeat bands, right. Or
things like that where it , itevokes like this certain image
(17:21):
in people's heads and then justgets like solidified as that's
what that thing is and thenthat's what everybody calls it,
Speaker 2 (17:29):
Right? We talked a lot about heartbeats and kind
of, I mean, I think when youtalk about a heartbeat, you
think about like a person thatyou could listen to their
heartbeat with a stethoscope,someone who has like hopes and
dreams and aspirations. Yetthis is like electrical
activity in the very earlystages of pregnancy. Like at
that stage there's not evenreally blood that's being
(17:51):
pumped in the embryo. So Imean, it's like this, but it ex
you're exactly right, itsolidifies this idea that like,
there is this like a line thatyou can put there.
Speaker 3 (18:01):
Turns out it's a lot easier to just come up with a
cool name for something than itis to have a scientific basis
behind the name. So ,maybe we should just focus on
that.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
I know, I think maybe we care about facts too
much .
Speaker 3 (18:14):
Yeah. That that is the problem. That's, that's
what's holding us back. I thinkthat's the
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Problem. ,
Speaker 1 (18:19):
I just had an interview where somebody was
interviewing about our reportcard that we just put out and
she's like, so why do factsstill matter? And I was just
like, oh God, don't ask me likethe hard question at all.
. Like ,
Speaker 2 (18:33):
I mean clearly we're like scientists, like we care
about facts.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Yeah. It
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Matters. And I think what we were trying to do with
the podcast is pair the storieswith the science. And I think
some people are very moved bystories. Some people are very
moved by science. A lot ofpeople are very moved by both.
And so when you can put thosetwo together, you can create,
you know, a powerful likepicture of like, okay, this is
what things are really like,this is what people's lives are
(18:59):
really like and this is why weshould care about it. And this
is the science to back up thisperson's story. We've worked a
fair amount with , uh, Dr.
Diana Green Foster. She likecame and visited and gave a ,
gave a talk and we had ashowing of the turn away play
here. And she just came tovisit the area recently and was
talking about how if we couldjust listen to people's
(19:21):
stories, like they tell us whythey need abortion care, they
tell us why now is not theright time, but people don't
always believe them. So likehaving the turn away study it
shows what the stories we'retelling her. So she has all
this amazing qualitative dataand she was like, if we just
listen to women and to peopleseeking abortion care, then,
(19:43):
you know, that's, that's all weneed. But people want the
science and the data to, toprove that as well.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Oh man, I use her data all the time. Yeah.
.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
Uh, so that means to me to think what are some of
your favorite conversationsthat you've had on the podcast?
Well,
Speaker 3 (19:57):
I I think both of , I mean, we're really grateful
for all of the participantsjust to say. And so there , I
think some of it is like the,you know, there's moments in
every one where you're, youjust think, ugh , you put that
so well. I wish I could speakas well as you and talk that
way. Um, I think that happensin every episode. I guess one
of my , um, one of my favoriteepisodes of the conversations
that happened in the thirdepisode, which is about a
(20:22):
provider who is a high riskpregnancy provider in Texas and
cares for patients who oftenneed abortion care and talks a
lot about the limitations thatshe has end up putting on
patients in terms of the carethey're able to get, which
aren't, you know, they'reimposed by her, by the state on
her. And she speaks reallyeloquently about how the
(20:45):
economic circumstances of herpatients either enable them to
be able to, you know, when theyhave exactly the same
condition, some patients can gooutta state to get the abortion
that they need, and somepatients just have to remain
pregnant and, and give birth.
It's really, really a , aheartbreaking and and powerful
story, right? That's directlyof this is the same condition
and these are two people whoare getting vastly different
(21:06):
care and there's nothing I cando about
Speaker 2 (21:07):
It in each episode.
Like, I have, like somethingthat's like the favorite part
of the episode. I mean, I washonored to interview both Diana
Green Foster and Katie Watsonand like hear from them.
They're both like, they're bothbrilliant people. And so like
hearing from them was reallyamazing. We also have a local
reproductive justice advocate,Maya Hart who, who I
(21:28):
interviewed a couple of times.
One, one time I was one of thetimes that we had a te major
technical difficulty and Ididn't get good sound. So it
was like one of like, thoselike stomach falls to the
floor. Like I just had thisamazing interview and uh , um,
but she was amazing every timeI talked to her. So it was
great and just helped me. Imean, anytime I talk to someone
(21:49):
and they help me see somethingin a slightly different way,
even when I'm immersed in this,you know, content all the time,
like I'm always , I alwaysleave those conversations like,
wow, like that was reallyawesome. And like, that's what
we're hoping the listener getsfrom this. Like every episode
like gets something where theyhave this little wow moment ,
like, oh, I hadn't thoughtabout it that way, but I
definitely had a couple ofmoments like that with Maya.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
The other moment for me is the, in Jenny Viva CIO's
interview . So she's a an alttrimester abortion provider and
she talks about hertransformation from being
anti-choice and protestingagainst abortion to becoming,
you know, a very comprehensiveabortion provider. Um, but at
the end, toward the end of theepisode, she talks about her
mother who is , uh, Catholicand has had a lot of difficulty
(22:33):
over the years with Jenny'sidentity and her work , um, but
is , you know, fiercely,fiercely supportive and loving
of Jenny . And she talks abouther mom walking around the
neighborhood with her walkerand a Planned Parenthood shirt
and how, and that's just sucha, a wonderful I know image and
really about sort of how theyhad this long conversation
about abortion and about thework that Jenny does, and they
(22:57):
really agree on the value ofjustice and the value of
showing up for people, right?
And that is something that hermother really sees, even if she
wouldn't do the same work, it'ssomething that clearly Jenny
took from her mother and bringsto her work every day .
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Oh, I love that. I can relate to so much of that.
I went to Catholic schoolthrough kindergarten, through
eighth grade, and I had afriend in like, I don't know ,
fourth, fifth grade, fifthgrade, something somewhere in
that area who was like, Hey,would you like to come to
Madison to go save babies withme? And they're like, yeah.
Like, who doesn't want to gosave babies? And like going
(23:37):
home and being like, Hey mom,can I go with so and so to go
save babies? And my mom likesitting me down and having a
conversation with me. And like,it was very just like, have you
thought about this? What aboutthe person in this situation?
What about that? And then forme, what I thought she did that
(23:58):
was really brilliant was shedidn't tell me I couldn't go or
that I could go or whatever.
She just said, do you stillwant to go? If you want? If you
, if that is something youstill want to do, that's okay.
And like gave me theinformation I needed to like,
make up my own values in mindwith her guiding. And I mean
obviously this is what I donow. So , uh, clearly it made
(24:19):
an impact and I did not go toMadison to protest at the
Planned Parenthood.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
What a cool mom.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
Yeah. What a how skilled
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Podcast . I
think the best part is like
when I started doing thispodcast, I think I told that
story and she's like, I don'tknow what you're talking about.
And I'm like, . Solike, it was just another
Tuesday to her and it was likethis big like aha moment for
me. That's
Speaker 2 (24:40):
So
Speaker 3 (24:40):
Cool. That's amazing.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
. Yeah, I
mean I , you know, we had a lot
of really amazing guests thatgave their time and their
expertise, but I mean, a lot ofthe fun part about it, it was
just like us, like just talkingabout stuff that we care about
and just like, you know, justspending time in the studio and
really like thinking throughthese issues. Like it's been,
you know, in North Carolinawe've had new restrictions that
(25:02):
came in place in 2023 thatreally made our practice much
more difficult. And so, youknow, we were pretty worn and
beat down by kind of thepost-ops fallout and, you know,
caring for so many patientstraveling to our state and it
was exhausting. And so I thinkbeing able to create something
that could maybe help otherpeople to have this
conversation and to use some ofthe, the things that we've
(25:26):
learned along the way wasreally cathartic.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
I love that. And I love the thought of like, if
people wanna have theseconversations with their
friends and family, one, do yourecommend them doing that? And
then two , like how, like howis the best way to have what
can sometimes be tense ordifficult conversations around
really personal issues?
Speaker 3 (25:47):
I mean, such a great question. I wish we had a good
answer. I think I wanna turn itback to, to back to you
actually and ask, like, weoftentimes have the opportunity
to meet with policymakers andone of the questions that we
often will ask policymakers iswhen can you remember a
conversation where someonechanged your mind about
something and it's really hardto produce actually, that's
(26:08):
why, right ? Like the fact thatyou remember it so clearly
Yeah. Really shows what anunusual circumstance it is
where you will have aconversation with someone where
your mind changes. And so, Imean, I'm , I'm curious more
about, about your experiencewith that, but also, so I think
it, it does require a lot oflistening and a lot of
(26:29):
questioning of, to understandwhere someone's coming from and
what they mean by what they'resaying and what they think, you
know, what are their values.
And once you can get back to,to that part of the
conversation, I think that's amore effective place in the
conversation than facts, right?
(26:50):
If you just repeat facts,they're gonna either have
counter facts or they're notgonna believe you. But if you
can this, if you're having aconversation with a loved one ,
then you're already startingfrom a place where you guys
have mutual affection, right?
It is a by definition someonewho cares about you and you
share something with. So startfrom there, figure out what
that is, and then you can gofrom there and jump off from
(27:11):
there to sort of find, alright, well we have some
commonalities in theconversation. How do you
reconcile this value ofjustice, this value of
self-determination with thisbelief? That doesn't reconcile
for me.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
I mean, I think people absolutely need to talk
more about it. I think it'schallenging though, right? Like
it's challenging to have anuncomfortable conversation with
someone you care about. But Ithink one positive thing about,
you know, Dobbs creating a lotof like news and you know,
articles about abortion andcontent about abortion is that
(27:49):
people are talking about itmuch more now than they used to
be. And so I think armingyourself with, with correct
information and informationfrom a reliable source , um,
can be really powerful. And youknow, I think when people bring
up misinformation, I think justasking like, well, tell me more
about like where you heardabout that or like, how did you
(28:09):
come to the conclusion that youknow, this is happening in a
widespread way or that this isrisky? Like tell me more. Like,
tell me how you got there. Andthen I think having, having
some knowledge that you canbring to the conversation can
be really powerful.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
Yeah, I always talk about you don't need to know
all the things, but if you canmake yourself a trusted
resource so people know thatthey can come to me and if I
don't have the answer, but Iknow that I can send them to
Guck for like this specificthing, or I know if they're
asking me about sex ed, I cansend them to advocates for
(28:45):
youth and they're gonna havegreat information or videos
that they can send to theirkids. So I don't need to know,
be able to answer every part ofevery question, but I know some
trusted resources I can sendthem to that will get them some
of that correct information.
So, you know, and it's findingthe space you're comfortable
with, right? So maybe you'renot comfortable having that
(29:05):
conversation with somebodywho's like really anti, but
maybe you hear somebody havinga conversation around like
gestational bands and, and likethere's, there's space where
you can start like just pushinga little bit of like, you know,
having make opening their minda little further and then you
get more comfortable and canhave other conversations with
(29:27):
other people. Yeah,
Speaker 2 (29:29):
I mean, I think, you know, am I gonna go out and
have these conversations withthe protestors outside of the
clinic where we work? No. Youknow, I think there's, right.
But if there are people in mylife that I care about that I
want to understand more aboutwhy I do this work, why I think
it's important , um, you know,we hold so many stories that
our patients share with us andI think that fuels our desire
(29:53):
to do this work and our desireto advocate so that people can
have this care because we, wehold those stories and have an
understanding of how it impactspeople's lives every
Speaker 3 (30:03):
Day . Jenny , I love what you said about humility
and sort of knowing what youknow and knowing what you don't
know and knowing where peoplecan get information and I think
that's really important, right?
Acknowledging, you know, Idon't, I don't know everything
and let's figure this outtogether. And I think that,
right? That's what makes peopletrust you or that's what makes
me trust people for
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Sure. Okay. So everything feels like really
heavy right now mm-hmm . Understatement
of like the decade, but how,how do you maintain hope right
now? How are you like keepinggoing?
Speaker 2 (30:32):
Well, I mean it's, you know, I tend to be a pretty
optimistic person. I mean, wesort of have this agreement
that one of us will always beoptimistic . So if one
of us is in like, it's soimportant the pessimist like
spot, we both can't be there atthe same time. Like, there's
like a , yeah . So I thinkhaving, having community is
really important. So there'sthat. I think we just have to
(30:53):
keep moving and maintain, youknow, forward movement and we
can't let this shock and awe ofwhat's happening right now
paralyze us because if we do,then they win again, right? So
we have to keep, keep at it. Wehave to like keep having
conversations, talking tolawmakers, talking to friends,
talking to family, like, youknow, just providing this care
(31:15):
is advocacy. Like if you're ina space where you're providing
controversial care in medicine,just being in that space and
providing medical care isadvocacy. And so there are some
days where, yes, I wanna likewrite an op-ed and I wanna like
get out and talk tolegislators, and then there are
other days where I just wannahole up and just like take care
of myself. And I think all ofthose things are necessary to
(31:36):
maintain sanity and hope.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
Yeah. It's not about what you can't do, it's about
what you can do. And sometimesyou just have to focus on on
exactly that. I mean , one ofthe reasons that I enjoy being
an apportion provider is I feellike when you provide that
abortion care is incrediblygratifying, right? That you are
helping someone who comes toyou saying, all right , I need
(31:59):
this service and I want you tohelp me and you help provide
that service. And generally,you know, you're able to, that,
that is really gratifying,right? There are aren't other
types of medicine and not manyinteractions that I have in my
day where you're able to, tohelp someone with something and
potentially have a lifechanging, often have a life
changing impact for them. And Ithink when you lose hope, you
(32:23):
can focus on that, that youstill get to do that, you still
are able to do that. And thatis really a privilege.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
I have to say, what gives me hope is, is y'all and
abortion providers on theground and the clinic staff and
the abortion funds who aredoing everything in their power
to make sure as many people aspossible are able to access the
care they need. And it canoften be thankless and you have
to deal with protesters andpeople harassing you at the
clinic and every day you'regoing in and doing that work.
(32:51):
And that just, that gives me somuch hope that we can get
through to a better pathbecause there are people who
are doing that work to meetthose needs. Yeah,
Speaker 2 (33:00):
It's a pretty amazing group of people that we
get to work and interact withand, you know, some of the best
people in the medical field arepeople that are, you know,
giving their time and theirenergy to care for patients
seeking abortion. And so manyof our patients now are, you
know, traveling greatdistances, overcoming enormous
barriers to get to care and arejust incredibly grateful when
(33:23):
they're able to get the carethat they need. And I think
being able to be a part of thatexperience, which it shouldn't
be like that, right? Like itshouldn't, they shouldn't have
to go over so many barriers toget care, but being part of
that is gratifying and gives mehope that, you know, we're,
we're providing the right carethat people need and we'll keep
moving.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
I mean, hope feels like the perfect place to stop
, um, . So Bev Jonas,thank you so much for being
here today at a wonderful timetalking to you. And I look
forward to popping by yourpodcast to talk to you all and
yeah, audience, you can gocheck us out
Speaker 2 (33:59):
There. Awesome.
Thank you so much. Yeah, thankyou.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
Okay, y'all, I hope you enjoyed my conversation
with Beverly and Jonas. It wasso much fun talking to them and
I had so much fun talking tothem on their podcast. So now
that you are done listening tomy conversation with them, you
should go to Outlawed andlisten to their conversation
with me. And while you'rethere, you should definitely
check out the rest of outlawedepisodes. It is a wonderful
(34:23):
podcast. Okay, y'all, see youon Tuesday. If you have any
questions, comments, or topicsyou would like us to cover,
always feel free to shoot me anemail. You can reach me at
jenny jn nie@reprofightback.com or you
can find us on social media.
We're at Repro Fight back onFacebook and Twitter or repro
(34:43):
FB on Instagram. If you loveour podcast and wanna make sure
more people find it, take thetime to rate and review us on
your favorite podcast platform.
Or if you wanna make sure tosupport the podcast, you can
also donate on ourwebsite@reprofightback.com.
Thanks all .
Welcome to Repro Fight Back a podcast on all
things related to sexual andreproductive health rights and
justice. Hi re Pros . I'm yourhost Jenny Wetter , and my
pronouns are she her. See y'all. I am so excited to have a
special bonus episode for youtoday. We did a special
crossover episode with theOutlawed podcast. Today on our
(00:26):
on repro fight Back, you canhear my conversation with Dr.
Beverly Gray and Dr. JonasSchwartz talking all about
myths that they encounteraround sexual and reproductive
health. It's such a wonderfulconversation. I had so much fun
talking to them. And then whenyou were done listening to this
podcast, you should go checkout Outlawed and their
(00:46):
interview with me talking aboutsome of the things that are
happening right now. We talkabout Tala , we talk about the
MiFi lawsuit, we talk about the50 state report card. We talk
about a whole host of things.
So once you are done listeningto my interview with Beverly
and Jonas, go check out theirconversation with me on
Outlawed. And with that, let'sget to our interview. Hi, Dr.
(01:10):
Gray. Hi, Dr. Schwartz. Thankyou so much for being here
today.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Hi, Jenny . We're so excited to be here.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Hi, Jenny . Thanks for having us. So
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Before we get started, would you like to take
a quick second and introduceyourselves , um, and then we
will get going.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Yeah. Um, so I am Bev Gray. My pronouns are she
her, and I am an O-B-G-Y-N inNorth Carolina. I have , uh,
lived here pretty much my wholelife and I live and work in
Durham, North Carolina now. AndJonas and I started a podcast
back in the fall calledOutlawed and really diving into
(01:44):
stories and science of abortioncare and abortion access in
north in , in the wholecountry, really. But we've
talked about North Carolina andVirginia, but also talked to
folks from all around. And ,um, it was a really great
experience and we've learned a
Speaker 3 (01:58):
Lot. And I'm Jonas Schwartz and my pronouns are
he, him. And I also am an OBGYN who grew up in North
Carolina, though in a differentpart of the state than Bev as
my boss. So that's how I gotinvolved in the podcast. Um,
yeah, outlaw has been afantastic way to, for us to
talk with people, askquestions, and think more
(02:19):
carefully in particular, aboutwhat we can do to improve the
conversation aroundreproductive healthcare and
abortion in particular. And ,um, get people thinking about
it and caring about it in atime when I think that's more
important than ever.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
First of all, I love your podcast and I'm so excited
to have y'all on. Would youwanna talk a little bit about
like what prompted you to startit? Like, I think there's so
much work that goes into apodcast, I can only assume
being OBGYNs and NorthCarolina, y'all are very busy
right now. So what prompted youto be like, Hey, let's start a
podcast on top of all of theother things?
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Yeah, I mean, that's a good question. I think our
families would probably ask thesame question, question, like ,
why you taking on an extra job?
Um, that's fine. When the Dobbsdecision happened, we were
lucky enough to collaboratewith an oral historian here at
Duke, and we started collecting, um, stories from providers
mainly in restricted states andstarted this oral history
(03:16):
archive. And as we were doingthat, we were hearing these
amazing stories. Jonas and Iare also like, we do a lot of
interviews with journalists andwe would do like this, like
heart wrenching interview, andthen they would take one
soundbite and we kept feelinglike, God, I wish they would
just tell the whole story. Liketell more of the story. Yeah .
Um, because there's more to itthan just soundbites . And so
(03:38):
some of the participants doingthose interviews in the oral
history were like, we want youto share our story more
broadly. Like, how are yougonna get this out there? And
so we um, well I sort of hadthis idea and we got some
funding through a private donor, um, to do the first season of
the podcast. And so we , um, weare, well, so I can speak for
(04:00):
myself. I don't know how I'mtechnologically challenged just
at baseline. Like you, like ittook us how long it takes 10
minutes to get the sound ready.
this. So, you know, it's um,it's hard to learn a new task
when, you know, you've, you'velearned a lot of tasks in your
life. So , um, hiring , uh,Jane Marie and getting her on
(04:21):
the the podcast was awesome. Soshe's an experienced producer ,
uh, was a producer for thisAmerican Life for 10 years and
then now has her own podcast,the Dream . And she helped us
create something that we had noidea could be so cool. And so
she really created a sound andwas able to help us with some
(04:41):
of the interviews and we werejust really proud of what she
was able to help us make.
That's
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Awesome. I feel you on the like technical front,
like what I first started mine,it was very much like learning
on my own and then also drawingthe line of like, you can make
me learn some things, but I'mnot going to be our editor
because I have my other jobthat you want me to do on top .
I'm not adding more other, moreon top. So thank you. We will
hire an editor ,
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Yeah. I think that that was a challenge for us was
that we didn't even know thenames of what, of the people
who we needed to hire orinvolved. Oh yeah . And luckily
Jane was very generous with usjust saying producer over and
over again, even though she wasdoing all of these different
jobs. But it is, you know, atotally different field and
different types of expertise.
And so it, it really has takena whole group of people to, to
(05:30):
help make this work.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
So I really love, and one of the things y'all
have talked about on thepodcast is, is myths and like
kind of countering some of themyths that are out there. So
what are some of the myths thatyou've tried to dispel?
Speaker 3 (05:43):
I think one of the first ones that we've
frequently encounter and I hearfrom my patients is that
abortion isn't safe. And peopleoften think if asked that
childbirth is safer thanabortion, and that's just not
true. And we support people whowant to have a childbirth and
people who want to have anabortion. But the fact of the
(06:04):
matter is that it is less riskyto have an abortion in the
first trimester or in thesecond trimester, or even in
the third trimester than it isto carry a pregnancy to term.
And, but people come in reallyscared about having a
medication abortion or abouthaving a procedural abortion
because of what they've heardin the media. And I think it's
actually really hard to counterthat. Um, it's even, you know,
(06:26):
just repeating it over and overagain when people have heard a
lot of propaganda about thedangers of abortion or a lot of
information about how abortionneeds to be regulated, I think
it's hard to fight against thatand say, all right, well this
is actually 14 times safer thanchildbirth and you're avoiding
all of the risks of ongoingpregnancy. And so this is a
safe thing to do. We can do itin a safe setting that's
(06:47):
comfortable for you. And so wereally try to repeat that both
for our patients and thenthrough the podcast.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
And I think related, a lot of people have this myth
that they're at risk ofinfertility with abortion,
which is again, a huge myth.
And I would say a lot of peopleare really worried like now
might not be the right time forthem to have a pregnancy, but
they're really worried, what ifI make a decision now that's
gonna affect future me? Andwhen they hear that, and you
(07:13):
know, some of , some of thefolks we care for get Care at a
crisis pregnancy center beforethey seek care in our clinic.
And so they've been kind ofpumped with these ideas of
misinformation. And so it takesa while to unravel that
sometimes and really to helppeople not be afraid of care
that's exceedingly safe.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Yeah. And I feel like the fertility one is when
you also see around birthcontrol. Like I feel like it's
been one of those that kind oflike comes and goes a little
bit. I remember it being reallybig when I was younger and then
it's, I feel like getting areal resurgence recently with
misinformation about itaffecting future fertility.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
Yeah, I think that conversation about birth
control, you're absolutelyright. I think it is having a
moment and is growing and youknow, I think it is important
for people to be able to telltheir stories, right? And I
think that's certainly what yousee in, or what I see in birth
control on social media now isthat people are, do have a
platform where they can sharetheir individual experiences in
a way that they maybe couldn'thave previously. But when it is
(08:11):
coupled with this idea that itis doing harm to people, then
that's really damaging becauseit scares people away from
using something that is helpfulfor the majority of people and
doesn't have that complicationfor the majority of people.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Well, I think the other thing that is we're
thinking about is how some ofthese myths then become policy
or impact, how policy is done.
Have you seen examples of that?
Speaker 2 (08:35):
So many, so many examples like Bill's , hyper
reregulating medication,abortion, when, you know, my
favorite story to tell aboutmedication abortion is that MFA
Pristine and Viagra at the sametime applied for approval
through the FDA and Viagra wasapproved in lightning speed for
the FDA , which was like twoyears. And it took four years
(08:56):
for Mifa Pristine to beapproved. Yet Mifa Pristine is
much safer than Viagra, and yetit's hyper regulated patients,
you know, have to go throughextra hoops to get it in a
clinic setting. And you know, Ithink all of those regulations
around Retone really are notabout safety. They're about
hindering people from gettingthe care that maybe they want
(09:18):
and need.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
So many of the bills are also named things like the
Protection of Women andChildren Act. Mm-hmm
because, you know, then whenyou vote against it, oh, you're
against the protection of womenand children. But it, you know,
they're just, it's just falsenames, but they are again,
really damaging. It's, it ispowerful to have , you know, a
(09:40):
name is powerful and people areconfused. Right. It's hard to
read the legislature . I havetrouble reading bills and
understanding what they, whatthey mean. And so the, you
know, when you have a titlelike that, it it's hard to
understand what what actuallyis contained.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Yeah. You definitely have that. And then you also
have things that they try tomake sound reasonable and like,
if you don't know all thedetails behind it, it , it can
be hard. I'm thinking backthrough like all the fights
were on like trap laws withlike admitting privileges and,
and like transfer arrangementarrangements and people
(10:17):
thinking like, oh yeah, no, thedoctors should totally have
admitting privileges at a localhospital without understanding
how those things work. And thathospitals don't just hand them
out on a silver platter toeverybody. Like Yeah . And so
you can have things that soundgood and sound like they're
protecting patient safety, butare actually just trying to
restrict care.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
We often will , um, talk about the report from the
national, well it's theformerly the Institute of
Medicine, right. This bigsystematic review, which
essentially concluded thatregulations to abortion, like
trap laws don't do anything tomake it safer. They only make
it more difficult to access.
Right. It already is reallysafe and we study it and we
(10:56):
regulate it really well as aprofession. And so these
outside laws are only making itharder and more expensive for
people to access.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
Or even just thinking about how with having
all of those , uh, laws passedbased on myths or that sound
good, it reinforces thatperception that abortion is not
safe.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
So like why would they be regulating it so much
if it wasn't unsafe? Yeah,
Speaker 2 (11:20):
No , I was talking to someone yesterday about we
have this forced biascounseling that we're required
to do with patients 72 hours inperson before they can seek
abortion care and they have toinitial every single line and
it has to be read to them by alicensed nurse or C physician ,
um, before they can have care.
And so even though some ofthese things that I'm reading
(11:43):
are derogatory not applicableto their situation or just
straight up offensive, I'mrequired to read it. And so I
was, you know, I was talking tosomeone yesterday, I was
thinking like, you know, allthe time I'm thinking like,
what do patients really think?
Do they think that, I believewhat I'm saying when I read
this, even if I preface it bysaying, this is required by the
(12:04):
state, we're gonna give you allthe information that's
necessary that you need. YetI'm required to tell patients
that even if the father of thebaby is gonna pay for your
abortion, he's still liable forchild support. Like, just like
these, these things that we'rerequired to say to people that
really are, you know, can getin between the relationship and
(12:24):
the trust. And there's always ,there's all already this like
mistrust of the medicalestablishment in the medical
system. And then if we have toread bias counseling that maybe
increases that mistrust. It's,it doesn't serve anyone
Speaker 3 (12:39):
And there's no other part of medicine where you have
to do that . Right. No one'srequiring a cardiologist to say
fake things before they carefor you. And it's really
confusing, right? You go intoan interaction with a
healthcare provider to get theinformation that you need about
the healthcare. You don'texpect them to be covering a
bunch of extraneous stuff thata legislator has said that they
have to cover.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
Yeah. I mean, it just also makes me think of
some of the things that stateswhere it got required to have
say around like medicationabortion and like abortion
reversal and things that arenot things and that are
harmful. Like I can't imaginedoctors being put in that
position.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Yeah. I mean it's when you have to read this
multiple times a day, you know,it just, it's, it's really
challenging. Yeah. Its
Speaker 3 (13:23):
Degrading, right?
It's degrading for you. It'sdegrading for the patient. And
I mean I , we do talk with ourcolleagues who in various
places about how they deal withthat, right? Like how do you
convey in this interaction,right ? This is the information
that you value and this is theinformation that you should not
value or that, you know,doesn't have an equal like
gravitas from me. I don't know.
(13:45):
Yeah . While following theletter of the law because we
were all really wanna make surethat we're following the
regulations. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Right? Like, we still have to be able to
provide care to people. And sowe, you know, doctors are
generally rule followers,right? So, you know, even if
it's a law that is contrary toevidence-based medicine,
contrary to our values or whatthe textbook says, like, we
have to follow the law.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
So why do you think some of these myths start to
take hold?
Speaker 2 (14:14):
I don't know. Like , let's, let's take an example.
So like the example of , um,abortion after birth . I think
that one took hold because itseems like this, it it was
starting to be propagated bypeople from very high positions
and you know, I think peoplethink, oh, well this is someone
(14:35):
that I believe and trust on allthese in all these other ways.
Why would they say something soinflammatory about this? It
must be true. Right? Like, andso I think that's, that's a
tough one. I don't know.
Speaker 3 (14:50):
I mean, so one thing that was surprising for me, and
I think for Bev too was howhard it was for us to define
some of the terms when we triedto, you know, like really
define talk about, all right ,well what is pregnancy and what
is abortion? And we understandthem , but they're hard to talk
about and hard to understand.
(15:11):
And I think the abortion afterbirth myth, right? It , it's
very evocative, right? Theimagery is very evocative, so
it's very useful if you opposeabortion and wanna galvanize
people to, to oppose it. Andit's hard to understand what
the difference between abortionlater in pregnancy and a birth
(15:33):
and , right. Like those are,those are concepts that can be
hard to understand, hard toexplain , um, and uncomfortable
to explain. And so I think thatthey take hold. I mean the
other, the other myth that Ithink about is the breast
cancer, you know, that there'san increased risk of breast
cancer after having had anabortion, which is again, a
myth is not true. And you know,part of the problem is that
there's been bad science,right? So people have conducted
(15:55):
studies in ways that they cameto a conclusion that was not
scientifically supported bybetter studies. And in some
cases those, like the data onabortion reversal, those papers
have been retracted in somecases they haven't. And so, you
know, if you look it up, youcan cite whatever you want or
you can find something andthen, you know, then either
(16:17):
legislators repeat it orsometimes it's people who want
to oppose abortion. Sometimesit's people who are
well-intentioned but havelooked it up and don't evaluate
the evidence well, but I , Ithink it, it creates this sort
of problematic self-fulfillingprophecy, right? I believe
there's a study of severalyears ago in Utah about that
looked at, because their , atthe time their state mandated
(16:37):
counseling required that theymentioned a risk of breast
cancer. And I may be gettingthe state wrong, but I believe
it was Utah. And they did, youknow, people's reactions to
that information because it wasin the state mandated
counseling was of belief,right? So it's hard to counter
that. Yeah . If it's in the, ifit's baked into the procedure
that you're getting or thecounseling that you're getting.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
I also think the anti-abortion folks are really
good at naming things,evocative things that then like
get repeated and then becomelike the media's name for the
thing. Like how often do wehear about, you know, bans
around six weeks being calledheartbeat bands, right. Or
things like that where it , itevokes like this certain image
(17:21):
in people's heads and then justgets like solidified as that's
what that thing is and thenthat's what everybody calls it,
Speaker 2 (17:29):
Right? We talked a lot about heartbeats and kind
of, I mean, I think when youtalk about a heartbeat, you
think about like a person thatyou could listen to their
heartbeat with a stethoscope,someone who has like hopes and
dreams and aspirations. Yetthis is like electrical
activity in the very earlystages of pregnancy. Like at
that stage there's not evenreally blood that's being
(17:51):
pumped in the embryo. So Imean, it's like this, but it ex
you're exactly right, itsolidifies this idea that like,
there is this like a line thatyou can put there.
Speaker 3 (18:01):
Turns out it's a lot easier to just come up with a
cool name for something than itis to have a scientific basis
behind the name. So
that.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
I know, I think maybe we care about facts too
much
Speaker 3 (18:14):
Yeah. That that is the problem. That's, that's
what's holding us back. I thinkthat's the
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Problem.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
I just had an interview where somebody was
interviewing about our reportcard that we just put out and
she's like, so why do factsstill matter? And I was just
like, oh God, don't ask me likethe hard question at all.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
I mean clearly we're like scientists, like we care
about facts.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Yeah. It
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Matters. And I think what we were trying to do with
the podcast is pair the storieswith the science. And I think
some people are very moved bystories. Some people are very
moved by science. A lot ofpeople are very moved by both.
And so when you can put thosetwo together, you can create,
you know, a powerful likepicture of like, okay, this is
what things are really like,this is what people's lives are
(18:59):
really like and this is why weshould care about it. And this
is the science to back up thisperson's story. We've worked a
fair amount with , uh, Dr.
Diana Green Foster. She likecame and visited and gave a ,
gave a talk and we had ashowing of the turn away play
here. And she just came tovisit the area recently and was
talking about how if we couldjust listen to people's
(19:21):
stories, like they tell us whythey need abortion care, they
tell us why now is not theright time, but people don't
always believe them. So likehaving the turn away study it
shows what the stories we'retelling her. So she has all
this amazing qualitative dataand she was like, if we just
listen to women and to peopleseeking abortion care, then,
(19:43):
you know, that's, that's all weneed. But people want the
science and the data to, toprove that as well.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Oh man, I use her data all the time. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
Uh, so that means to me to think what are some of
your favorite conversationsthat you've had on the podcast?
Well,
Speaker 3 (19:57):
I I think both of , I mean, we're really grateful
for all of the participantsjust to say. And so there , I
think some of it is like the,you know, there's moments in
every one where you're, youjust think, ugh , you put that
so well. I wish I could speakas well as you and talk that
way. Um, I think that happensin every episode. I guess one
of my , um, one of my favoriteepisodes of the conversations
that happened in the thirdepisode, which is about a
(20:22):
provider who is a high riskpregnancy provider in Texas and
cares for patients who oftenneed abortion care and talks a
lot about the limitations thatshe has end up putting on
patients in terms of the carethey're able to get, which
aren't, you know, they'reimposed by her, by the state on
her. And she speaks reallyeloquently about how the
(20:45):
economic circumstances of herpatients either enable them to
be able to, you know, when theyhave exactly the same
condition, some patients can gooutta state to get the abortion
that they need, and somepatients just have to remain
pregnant and, and give birth.
It's really, really a , aheartbreaking and and powerful
story, right? That's directlyof this is the same condition
and these are two people whoare getting vastly different
(21:06):
care and there's nothing I cando about
Speaker 2 (21:07):
It in each episode.
Like, I have, like somethingthat's like the favorite part
of the episode. I mean, I washonored to interview both Diana
Green Foster and Katie Watsonand like hear from them.
They're both like, they're bothbrilliant people. And so like
hearing from them was reallyamazing. We also have a local
reproductive justice advocate,Maya Hart who, who I
(21:28):
interviewed a couple of times.
One, one time I was one of thetimes that we had a te major
technical difficulty and Ididn't get good sound. So it
was like one of like, thoselike stomach falls to the
floor. Like I just had thisamazing interview and uh , um,
but she was amazing every timeI talked to her. So it was
great and just helped me. Imean, anytime I talk to someone
(21:49):
and they help me see somethingin a slightly different way,
even when I'm immersed in this,you know, content all the time,
like I'm always , I alwaysleave those conversations like,
wow, like that was reallyawesome. And like, that's what
we're hoping the listener getsfrom this. Like every episode
like gets something where theyhave this little wow moment ,
like, oh, I hadn't thoughtabout it that way, but I
definitely had a couple ofmoments like that with Maya.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
The other moment for me is the, in Jenny Viva CIO's
interview . So she's a an alttrimester abortion provider and
she talks about hertransformation from being
anti-choice and protestingagainst abortion to becoming,
you know, a very comprehensiveabortion provider. Um, but at
the end, toward the end of theepisode, she talks about her
mother who is , uh, Catholicand has had a lot of difficulty
(22:33):
over the years with Jenny'sidentity and her work , um, but
is , you know, fiercely,fiercely supportive and loving
of Jenny . And she talks abouther mom walking around the
neighborhood with her walkerand a Planned Parenthood shirt
and how, and that's just sucha, a wonderful I know image and
really about sort of how theyhad this long conversation
about abortion and about thework that Jenny does, and they
(22:57):
really agree on the value ofjustice and the value of
showing up for people, right?
And that is something that hermother really sees, even if she
wouldn't do the same work, it'ssomething that clearly Jenny
took from her mother and bringsto her work every day .
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Oh, I love that. I can relate to so much of that.
I went to Catholic schoolthrough kindergarten, through
eighth grade, and I had afriend in like, I don't know ,
fourth, fifth grade, fifthgrade, something somewhere in
that area who was like, Hey,would you like to come to
Madison to go save babies withme? And they're like, yeah.
Like, who doesn't want to gosave babies? And like going
(23:37):
home and being like, Hey mom,can I go with so and so to go
save babies? And my mom likesitting me down and having a
conversation with me. And like,it was very just like, have you
thought about this? What aboutthe person in this situation?
What about that? And then forme, what I thought she did that
(23:58):
was really brilliant was shedidn't tell me I couldn't go or
that I could go or whatever.
She just said, do you stillwant to go? If you want? If you
, if that is something youstill want to do, that's okay.
And like gave me theinformation I needed to like,
make up my own values in mindwith her guiding. And I mean
obviously this is what I donow. So , uh, clearly it made
(24:19):
an impact and I did not go toMadison to protest at the
Planned Parenthood.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
What a cool mom.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
Yeah. What a how skilled
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Podcast
when I started doing thispodcast, I think I told that
story and she's like, I don'tknow what you're talking about.
And I'm like,
Tuesday to her and it was likethis big like aha moment for
me. That's
Speaker 2 (24:40):
So
Speaker 3 (24:40):
Cool. That's amazing.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
of really amazing guests thatgave their time and their
expertise, but I mean, a lot ofthe fun part about it, it was
just like us, like just talkingabout stuff that we care about
and just like, you know, justspending time in the studio and
really like thinking throughthese issues. Like it's been,
you know, in North Carolinawe've had new restrictions that
(25:02):
came in place in 2023 thatreally made our practice much
more difficult. And so, youknow, we were pretty worn and
beat down by kind of thepost-ops fallout and, you know,
caring for so many patientstraveling to our state and it
was exhausting. And so I thinkbeing able to create something
that could maybe help otherpeople to have this
conversation and to use some ofthe, the things that we've
(25:26):
learned along the way wasreally cathartic.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
I love that. And I love the thought of like, if
people wanna have theseconversations with their
friends and family, one, do yourecommend them doing that? And
then two , like how, like howis the best way to have what
can sometimes be tense ordifficult conversations around
really personal issues?
Speaker 3 (25:47):
I mean, such a great question. I wish we had a good
answer. I think I wanna turn itback to, to back to you
actually and ask, like, weoftentimes have the opportunity
to meet with policymakers andone of the questions that we
often will ask policymakers iswhen can you remember a
conversation where someonechanged your mind about
something and it's really hardto produce actually, that's
(26:08):
why, right ? Like the fact thatyou remember it so clearly
Yeah. Really shows what anunusual circumstance it is
where you will have aconversation with someone where
your mind changes. And so, Imean, I'm , I'm curious more
about, about your experiencewith that, but also, so I think
it, it does require a lot oflistening and a lot of
(26:29):
questioning of, to understandwhere someone's coming from and
what they mean by what they'resaying and what they think, you
know, what are their values.
And once you can get back to,to that part of the
conversation, I think that's amore effective place in the
conversation than facts, right?
(26:50):
If you just repeat facts,they're gonna either have
counter facts or they're notgonna believe you. But if you
can this, if you're having aconversation with a loved one ,
then you're already startingfrom a place where you guys
have mutual affection, right?
It is a by definition someonewho cares about you and you
share something with. So startfrom there, figure out what
that is, and then you can gofrom there and jump off from
(27:11):
there to sort of find, alright, well we have some
commonalities in theconversation. How do you
reconcile this value ofjustice, this value of
self-determination with thisbelief? That doesn't reconcile
for me.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
I mean, I think people absolutely need to talk
more about it. I think it'schallenging though, right? Like
it's challenging to have anuncomfortable conversation with
someone you care about. But Ithink one positive thing about,
you know, Dobbs creating a lotof like news and you know,
articles about abortion andcontent about abortion is that
(27:49):
people are talking about itmuch more now than they used to
be. And so I think armingyourself with, with correct
information and informationfrom a reliable source , um,
can be really powerful. And youknow, I think when people bring
up misinformation, I think justasking like, well, tell me more
about like where you heardabout that or like, how did you
(28:09):
come to the conclusion that youknow, this is happening in a
widespread way or that this isrisky? Like tell me more. Like,
tell me how you got there. Andthen I think having, having
some knowledge that you canbring to the conversation can
be really powerful.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
Yeah, I always talk about you don't need to know
all the things, but if you canmake yourself a trusted
resource so people know thatthey can come to me and if I
don't have the answer, but Iknow that I can send them to
Guck for like this specificthing, or I know if they're
asking me about sex ed, I cansend them to advocates for
(28:45):
youth and they're gonna havegreat information or videos
that they can send to theirkids. So I don't need to know,
be able to answer every part ofevery question, but I know some
trusted resources I can sendthem to that will get them some
of that correct information.
So, you know, and it's findingthe space you're comfortable
with, right? So maybe you'renot comfortable having that
(29:05):
conversation with somebodywho's like really anti, but
maybe you hear somebody havinga conversation around like
gestational bands and, and likethere's, there's space where
you can start like just pushinga little bit of like, you know,
having make opening their minda little further and then you
get more comfortable and canhave other conversations with
(29:27):
other people. Yeah,
Speaker 2 (29:29):
I mean, I think, you know, am I gonna go out and
have these conversations withthe protestors outside of the
clinic where we work? No. Youknow, I think there's, right.
But if there are people in mylife that I care about that I
want to understand more aboutwhy I do this work, why I think
it's important , um, you know,we hold so many stories that
our patients share with us andI think that fuels our desire
(29:53):
to do this work and our desireto advocate so that people can
have this care because we, wehold those stories and have an
understanding of how it impactspeople's lives every
Speaker 3 (30:03):
Day . Jenny , I love what you said about humility
and sort of knowing what youknow and knowing what you don't
know and knowing where peoplecan get information and I think
that's really important, right?
Acknowledging, you know, Idon't, I don't know everything
and let's figure this outtogether. And I think that,
right? That's what makes peopletrust you or that's what makes
me trust people for
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Sure. Okay. So everything feels like really
heavy right now mm-hmm
of like the decade, but how,how do you maintain hope right
now? How are you like keepinggoing?
Speaker 2 (30:32):
Well, I mean it's, you know, I tend to be a pretty
optimistic person. I mean, wesort of have this agreement
that one of us will always beoptimistic
of us is in like, it's soimportant the pessimist like
spot, we both can't be there atthe same time. Like, there's
like a , yeah . So I thinkhaving, having community is
really important. So there'sthat. I think we just have to
(30:53):
keep moving and maintain, youknow, forward movement and we
can't let this shock and awe ofwhat's happening right now
paralyze us because if we do,then they win again, right? So
we have to keep, keep at it. Wehave to like keep having
conversations, talking tolawmakers, talking to friends,
talking to family, like, youknow, just providing this care
(31:15):
is advocacy. Like if you're ina space where you're providing
controversial care in medicine,just being in that space and
providing medical care isadvocacy. And so there are some
days where, yes, I wanna likewrite an op-ed and I wanna like
get out and talk tolegislators, and then there are
other days where I just wannahole up and just like take care
of myself. And I think all ofthose things are necessary to
(31:36):
maintain sanity and hope.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
Yeah. It's not about what you can't do, it's about
what you can do. And sometimesyou just have to focus on on
exactly that. I mean , one ofthe reasons that I enjoy being
an apportion provider is I feellike when you provide that
abortion care is incrediblygratifying, right? That you are
helping someone who comes toyou saying, all right , I need
(31:59):
this service and I want you tohelp me and you help provide
that service. And generally,you know, you're able to, that,
that is really gratifying,right? There are aren't other
types of medicine and not manyinteractions that I have in my
day where you're able to, tohelp someone with something and
potentially have a lifechanging, often have a life
changing impact for them. And Ithink when you lose hope, you
(32:23):
can focus on that, that youstill get to do that, you still
are able to do that. And thatis really a privilege.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
I have to say, what gives me hope is, is y'all and
abortion providers on theground and the clinic staff and
the abortion funds who aredoing everything in their power
to make sure as many people aspossible are able to access the
care they need. And it canoften be thankless and you have
to deal with protesters andpeople harassing you at the
clinic and every day you'regoing in and doing that work.
(32:51):
And that just, that gives me somuch hope that we can get
through to a better pathbecause there are people who
are doing that work to meetthose needs. Yeah,
Speaker 2 (33:00):
It's a pretty amazing group of people that we
get to work and interact withand, you know, some of the best
people in the medical field arepeople that are, you know,
giving their time and theirenergy to care for patients
seeking abortion. And so manyof our patients now are, you
know, traveling greatdistances, overcoming enormous
barriers to get to care and arejust incredibly grateful when
(33:23):
they're able to get the carethat they need. And I think
being able to be a part of thatexperience, which it shouldn't
be like that, right? Like itshouldn't, they shouldn't have
to go over so many barriers toget care, but being part of
that is gratifying and gives mehope that, you know, we're,
we're providing the right carethat people need and we'll keep
moving.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
I mean, hope feels like the perfect place to stop
, um,
here today at a wonderful timetalking to you. And I look
forward to popping by yourpodcast to talk to you all and
yeah, audience, you can gocheck us out
Speaker 2 (33:59):
There. Awesome.
Thank you so much. Yeah, thankyou.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
Okay, y'all, I hope you enjoyed my conversation
with Beverly and Jonas. It wasso much fun talking to them and
I had so much fun talking tothem on their podcast. So now
that you are done listening tomy conversation with them, you
should go to Outlawed andlisten to their conversation
with me. And while you'rethere, you should definitely
check out the rest of outlawedepisodes. It is a wonderful
(34:23):
podcast. Okay, y'all, see youon Tuesday. If you have any
questions, comments, or topicsyou would like us to cover,
always feel free to shoot me anemail. You can reach me at
jenny jn nie@reprofightback.com or you
can find us on social media.
We're at Repro Fight back onFacebook and Twitter or repro
(34:43):
FB on Instagram. If you loveour podcast and wanna make sure
more people find it, take thetime to rate and review us on
your favorite podcast platform.
Or if you wanna make sure tosupport the podcast, you can
also donate on ourwebsite@reprofightback.com.
Thanks all .
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