December 16, 2025 • 42 mins
Feminist foreign policy is a policy framework that challenges traditional understandings of foreign policy. It prioritizes peace, gender equality, human rights, and environmental integrity. Jill Montilla, Development and Communications Associate with the Feminist Foreign Policy Collaborative and Spogmay Ahmed, Senior Policy Advisor with the Feminist Foreign Policy Collaborative, sit down to talk with us about why a framework that disrupts colonial, racist, patriarchal, and male-dominated power structures is critical.
Upwards of 15 global governments have formally committed to utilizing a feminist foreign policy, and many more have engaged with the topic in multilateral settings. A recent, re-occurring report from the Feminist Foreign Policy Collaborative, which analyses over 20 countries’ commitment to feminist foreign policy, found that these policies have survived more elections than they have lost, that several countries have expanded their commitments, and that several countries have increased multilateral, bilateral, and regional activity. Many governments have taken up sexual and reproductive health and rights, in particular, as a priority. Some countries have stepped back from their commitments, though, amongst a troubled landscape for funding.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jennie (00:35):
Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, a podcast on all things
related to sexual andreproductive health rights and
justice.
[music intro] Hi, rePROs.
How's everybody doing?
I'm your host, Jennie Wetter,and my pronouns are she/ her.
So, y'all, this was a funlittle week for me.
I just got back from a trip upto New York.
(00:55):
It's like my third trip in likefour weeks, which is wild
because I hadn't been to NewYork for, I don't know, at least
a year before that.
But I've had some been lucky tohave some really fun trips this
last month.
This most recent one, I washonored to be asked to come
speak to a class at the MailmanPublic Health School at Columbia
(01:15):
University.
I had so much fun getting totalk to those students.
They had such great and smartquestions for me.
It was just so much fun.
I was really honored to beasked, and it was so wonderful
getting to know the professorthat asked me out to come up and
getting to talk to the studentsand look around the campus a
little bit.
(01:35):
It was it was a great time.
I'm so glad I did it, and Ihope to do things like that
again.
I really loved the professor,she was so sweet.
Hi, Lauren.
Thank you for asking me to comeup and for your very, very kind
words.
Y'all, she had such kind wordsfor me at the end.
She made me cry in front of herstudents, but it was so much
(01:55):
fun, and I really had a greattime.
So thank you for asking me, andI can't wait to do something
like this again.
Let's see what else.
I feel like I came home and mycats thought I had like gone off
to war or something.
I they were so needy and whiny,they are finally settling down
now they've been home for uh alittle longer, a couple days.
(02:17):
But let's see what else did Ido.
Oh, yeah, I also got to see myold roommate again while I was
up in New York.
Uh, we went out for dinner andI had went out for a Korean
barbecue, which I think was likethe first time I've done that.
So that was a lot of fun.
It was really nice to get tosee her.
Yeah, it was just a really funlittle trip.
And I really enjoy going up toNew York every once in a while.
(02:41):
There's just so much fun thingsto do, so much great food to
eat.
Taking the train up is so easy,and um, yeah, it was a good
little trip.
I had a lot of fun.
Let's see, I'm trying to thinkif there is anything else
exciting for me to talk about.
I think those are like the bigthings going on.
I am getting ready for theholidays and we'll be seeing my
(03:05):
family soon, so that'll bereally nice.
Yeah, so those are the bigthings going on.
I think maybe let's just turnto this week's interview.
I am really excited.
We have we've talked aboutFeminist Foreign Policy before
on the podcast, but it's been awhile.
So I was really excited to haveum two wonderful guests from
the Feminist Foreign PolicyCollaborative come on to talk
(03:25):
about a new report they had thatthey released uh like a month
ago, I think.
Um, so with that, let's turn tomy interview with Jillian
Montilla and Spogmay Ahmed withthe Feminist Foreign Policy
Collaborative.
Okay, let's go to my interviewwith Jill and Spogmay.
Jill (03:45):
Hi, Jennie.
Thanks so much for having us.
Spogmay (03:48):
Thanks so much for having us.
Jennie (03:50):
Before we get started, let's do a quick round of
introductions.
Let's go reverse alphabetical.
The last interview I did, I didalphabetical, so let's do the
opposite this time. Spogmay, gofirst.
Spogmay (04:01):
Hi, my name is Spogmay Ahmed, and I am a Senior Policy
Advisor with the FeministForeign Policy Collaborative,
and I'm based in New York.
Jill (04:09):
Hi there, and I'm Jill Montilla.
I'm the Development andCommunications Associate with
the Feminist Foreign PolicyCollaborative, and I'm an
American based in Paris.
Jennie (04:19):
Wonderful.
I'm so excited to have y'all onhere.
We have talked about feministforeign policy before.
We had Lyric on, but it hasbeen quite a while.
So, I feel like we should maybestart with like the very basic
of like what is Feminist ForeignPolicy?
Spogmay (04:35):
Yeah, so Feminist Foreign Policy is a policy
framework that is challengingtraditional understandings of
foreign policy.
So, oftentimes when peoplethink of foreign policy, the
things that come to mind aredefense, military,
state-centered security, power,and competition.
Feminist Foreign Policy isreally an effort to shift away
(04:58):
from that framing and insteadtowards a more people-centered
approach to foreign policy.
So, it's prioritizing thingslike peace, gender equality,
human rights, and environmentalintegrity.
The principles and thepriorities of Feminist Foreign
Policy are really rooted inlegacies of feminist history and
organizing.
(05:19):
But as a policy framework, itwas first introduced to the
world stage by the government ofSweden in 2014.
And since then, upwards of 15governments have formally
committed to a feminist foreignor development policy, and many
more have engaged with the topicin regional and multilateral
settings.
At the Feminist Foreign PolicyCollaborative, we have our own
(05:43):
lengthy definition of a feministforeign policy, which I
definitely recommend folks checkout on our website,
ffpcollaborative.org.
But essentially, it describesfeminist foreign policy as the
policy of a state that disruptscolonial, racist, patriarchal,
and male-dominated powerstructures.
And we follow a 5R frameworkfor assessing a feminist foreign
(06:08):
policy.
Those include first, rights, sohow does a feminist foreign
policy ground human rights?
Second, resources, or what'sbacking up a commitment to a
feminist foreign policy.
Third, representation, which isnot just who's at the table
making these decisions, but alsohow are we really meaningfully
(06:31):
working with the communities whowill be most impacted by
foreign policy decision making?
Fourth, research and reporting.
So how are these commitmentsmeasurable?
How can we track theirprogress?
And lastly, reach, whicharguably is the most important
and also the hardest toimplement.
So reach is describingcoherence in foreign policy.
(06:54):
So, when we're calling for aFeminist Foreign Policy, we
don't just want feministcommitments in development aid
and security, we also want themin spaces like trade,
immigration, refugee assistance,and so on.
And also, is there a coherencebetween the commitments that
governments are making at homein their domestic policies and
(07:16):
in their foreign policies aswell?
So there's a lot packed inthere, but essentially I think
of it as a more people-centeredapproach to foreign policy
that's centering human dignityand the centralization of equity
and justice for all.
Jennie (07:32):
That's so great.
I really, I have really enjoyedthis idea. I've been involved
with Feminist Foreign PolicyCollaborative over the years,
and it really is just such amore, I mean, honestly, hopeful
vision for the world, right?
And it has always been great tolearn more as this has gone
forward over the years.
(07:53):
And so one of the big things isy'all just released a new
report on defining feministforeign policy.
What can you tell us about thefindings in the report?
Spogmay (08:02):
Yeah, so our defining Feminist Foreign Policy report
provides an overview of thestate of the field of Feminist
Foreign Policy.
And it's a report that we atthe Collaborative release every
two years.
So, this is the fourth editionof that report covering the
period 2023 to 2025.
And it's also our longest andmost comprehensive yet.
(08:23):
It provides an in-depthanalysis of over 20 countries
that have either committed to aFeminist Foreign Policy or are
interested in this agenda.
And I can share candidly thatwhen we first started this
report, we honestly thought thatthis was the beginning of the
end of Feminist Foreign Policy.
We started this research at atime when we were reading
(08:46):
headlines of genocide, loss, andclimate catastrophe.
Right-wing governments werewinning elections, several
governments were starting torenounce their Feminist Foreign
Policy commitments.
And in such a dark context, weexpected this to be our goodbye
letter to this movement.
But instead, we actually founda much more hopeful picture than
(09:07):
we anticipated and proof thatthis work is continuing in spite
of the most difficultcircumstances.
So, we found that FeministForeign Policies have actually
survived more elections thanthey have lost.
And in this time period,several governments developed
and expanded their feministforeign policies from Colombia
(09:27):
to France to Spain, including bypublishing new frameworks,
action plans, and commitments.
We also saw an increase inmultilateral, regional, and
bilateral activity around thisagenda, from the United Nations,
to what we call South-Southcooperation efforts, where
governments across the globalsouth are working together to
(09:49):
advance feminist foreign policyprinciples.
And we identified a number offirsts or things that
governments were doing for thefirst time to really sustain
wins around Feminist ForeignPolicy, whether that be things
like establishing gender unitsin their ministries of foreign
affairs or enshrining feministprinciples into law.
We also did a deep dive intofour pressing issue areas in
(10:13):
this report.
First, of course, sexual andreproductive health and rights,
which we'll get into, which wefound for this report, was both
an issue of consensus and one ofcontention.
Second, the case of Palestine,which led to a lot of breakdowns
in this field over the pastcouple of years.
We reviewed evolving policypositions, challenges to
(10:35):
government coherence, and theways in which the feminist
movement was stepping up andpushing back and using this
framework to advocate forgreater global justice.
Third, an official developmentassistance and looking at the
funding crisis around feministforeign policy and how these
commitments actually promotegovernments to invest more in
(10:56):
women's rights and genderequality.
And lastly, oninstitutionalization.
So, how do we sustain winsaround feminist foreign policy
and gender equality?
And this feels very real,particularly for those of us in
the United States, of when wehave a political window to
advance gender equality, how dowe make sure those gains aren't
(11:18):
so easily reversed whenpolitical tides turn?
So it's a long report, butdefinitely recommend taking a
deep dive into some of it.
Jennie (11:27):
So let's do like a little deep dive into one
particular section, and that'sthe sexual and reproductive
health and rights section.
Let's let's dig into it.
What do we see in this section?
Jill (11:38):
Totally, and I think that's why we're all here today,
right?
So, we found actually between2023 and 2025, FFP governments
have really taken up SRHR as anurgent priority and also a site
for collective action.
And this is something thatwe've been calling for since
2018.
So it's really good to see thisunity right now, especially
(11:59):
with the revival of the GenevaConsensus, which is an anti-SRHR
and anti-LGBTQIA plus rightsdeclaration signed on by I think
40 countries at this point.
And from our research, I thinkthere are two key trends that I
kind of want to tease out.
The first is around progress oncoherence.
This is something that we FFPadvocates talk about a lot, and
(12:21):
coherence between what a stateclaims to care about
internationally on the shinystages and what it actually does
at home.
So keeping this in mind, we wesaw promising leadership on
protecting SRH domesticallyamong FFP countries.
You've mentioned this before onthe podcast, but France, for
example, constitutionalized theright to abortion, and this was
in direct response to theoverturn of Roe v.
(12:42):
Wade.
And it's also an example ofthose institutionalization
efforts that Spock madementioned before, and something
that we encourageadministrations to do while you
still have the kind of politicalpower to be able to do so.
I think within also thiscoherence kind of trend, we also
saw leadership in Mexico,Luxembourg, and Chile, all who
made moves to eitherdecriminalize or
constitutionalize the freedom tohave an abortion since the
(13:04):
publication of the report withvarying degrees of success and
resistance.
And Spain has actually alsotaken the innovative step of
enshrining its uh developmentfinancing commitments for gender
equality and SRH specificallyinto law.
I think on to the second trendthat I think is relevant for the
listeners is uh aroundincreased coordination in uh
multilateral spaces andnegotiations.
(13:26):
This is significant because weare seeing a huge surge of
highly coordinated, well-fundedanti-rights actors occupying
these spaces, and they areeroding long-established norms
and language around SRHR,women's autonomy, the idea of
the family.
So seeing progressivecoalitions emerge to counter
them is actually reallyinspiring.
(13:46):
And for example, we sawColombia, France, and Spain
leverage their feminist foreignpolicies during UNCSW
negotiations in March this year,and they actually positioned
SRHR as a crucial component oftheir development cooperation.
And we also saw promisingcoordination at the Commission
on Population and Development inApril.
And most recently, and I thinkmost strikingly, is in just this
(14:08):
past October at the FourthMinisterial Conference on
Feminist Foreign Policy, whichwas hosted in Paris by the
government of France.
And the outcome of thisconference was a political
declaration, wherein 31countries committed to working
together on a number of keyissues for the movement,
including SRHR, and it even hadan explicit mention to the right
to safe abortion care.
(14:30):
So just to kind of wrap it up,we're we're in a context where
SRHR and abortion are often thefirst issues cut in the name of
consensus.
And also we're in a contextwhere these rights are facing
coordinated attack acrosssectors.
So the significance that wedidn't need to water down
language to get 31 countries tosay, hey, we need to work
together right now isn't lost onus.
Jennie (14:49):
You talk about the moment and you're seeing a lot
of pushback, particularly fromanti-rights groups, but you're
also seeing a couple of donorcountries, key donor countries
who have taken some steps awayfrom feminist foreign policy,
most notably Sweden, theNetherlands, and most recently
Canada.
What are we seeing with this?
Jill (15:09):
Yeah, Jennie, political declarations are important and
they're important for- it's animportant opportunity for states
to demonstrate their politicalwill, but at the end of the day,
you gotta follow the money,right?
So to be honest, the thefunding reality for
international feminist work isreally tough right now.
You know, we're even feeling itourselves here at the
collaborative for the for thefirst time.
We we've lost funding becauseone of our donors shifted away
(15:31):
from supporting US-basedorganizations in the current
climate.
And just to paint a more globalpicture, 11 donor countries
have announced substantial cutsto official development
assistance or ODA.
And this accounts for 75% ofall ODA that could amount to a
decline of over $56 billion overthe next two years.
And what does this mean?
(15:52):
And it means that half of thewomen's rights organizations
working in crisis settings,filling critical gaps for
services related to SRHR, arelikely to close their doors
within the next six months.
As the UN Special Repertoire onDebt said uh just in the
summer, um, when states makethese decisions, there is blood
on the budget line.
And I think this all begs thequestion of why we're here
(16:13):
today.
And the question is one of thequestions is that when a country
adopts a feminist foreignpolicy, does it actually lead to
any real change in developmentfinancing for gender equality?
And our research says yes.
And we found that there's acorrelation between a state
having an FFP and giving moremoney to feminist causes.
And we can see that from theresearch from our Senior Fellow,
(16:34):
Beth Woroniuk, that shelaunched in Paris, which dove
into the ODA commitments ofFeminist Foreign Policy
countries that belong to theOECD Development Assistance
Committee.
And she found that up until2023, compared to their non-FFP
counterparts, FFP countriesinvest more of their ODA budgets
into gender equality morebroadly.
They invest more intoinitiatives preventing and
(16:56):
responding to violence againstwomen.
They invest five times more ona percentage basis in women's
rights organizations.
And we also found thatcountries that announce feminist
foreign policies often launchspecial funding initiatives to
accompany them.
Special funding initiativesmeant specifically for feminist
organizations and ones that arealigned with feminist practice
around power sharing.
So this is what we're talkingabout with core, flexible,
(17:18):
multi-year funding that putsmore money into the hands of
actual practitioners.
I think one interesting datapoint that would I would be
remiss to not mention was thatwe found also that Feminist
Foreign Policy countriesactually don't fund higher than
the average when it comes toSRHR, though.
Something that we'vehighlighted, we need more
research to follow up on.
So, that's what the researchsays.
(17:40):
But if we want to zoom out andthink about the question of the
future of funding for FeministForeign Policy and SRHR, I think
there are three points that I'dlike to close off on here.
And the first is just toaddress the elephant in the
room.
Uh, this data only goes upuntil 2023.
So, we can expect that thesenumbers to drop in the next two
years, given the massive cutsthat have been recently
(18:02):
announced.
I think the second point that Iwant to mention is that we
can't lose sight of the factthat when we talk about ODA
cuts, whether they're comingfrom FFP or non-FFP countries,
ODA is just one part of a largerset of dynamics that determines
how this work actually getsfunded.
So I think it was in yourconversation with Anu Kumar, the
president of IPass earlier lastmonth.
(18:23):
Y'all discussed how the chaoscreated by USAID's dismantlement
is sparking a lot ofreshuffling of partnerships, new
thinking on how to move beyondUS financial assistance, and
just a lot of reimagination.
And in our corner of the FFPspace, we're seeing similar,
we're seeing a lot of thoughtleadership from our regional
partners, particularly those inAfrica, on how tax and debt
(18:46):
justice could provide avenues tofill these gaps.
So there are creative ways toovercome and think beyond the
current bleak funding reality.
And I think finally, like thepoint that I want to make is
that there's a gap between whatis announced when FFPs are
abandoned and what's actuallyhappening in terms of the
portfolios, the staffing.
And like you mentioned, Canadaand Prime Minister Kearney's
(19:09):
off-handed comment about Canadano longer having an FFP.
Well, you know, feministactivists, along with elected
officials and civil servants,are pushing back and saying,
hey, feminism and caring aboutgender equality are very much so
still part of our foreignpolicy.
And not just because it's theright thing to do, but because
it's a smart thing to do withour money.
And I think this is a reminderthat we need to continue to look
(19:31):
beyond the headlines and remainfocused and strategic.
Jennie (19:34):
So, you mentioned the Fourth Ministerial Meeting
earlier.
I feel like there's some moreto dig into around what happened
there.
Can we talk a little bit moreabout what happened at the
Ministerial Meeting?
Jill (19:46):
So, you know, my colleagues and I were looking at
2025 as a test case to see ifthis progressive cohort of
countries could act as a sort ofgeopolitical counter to the
rising authoritarianism andanti-rights backlash that we're
seeing, seeing as represented bythe bloc of 40 or so
governments backing theanti-abortion Geneva consensus.
(20:07):
And coming out of thisministerial conference on
feminist foreign policy, thefourth of its kind that was held
in Paris this past October, wehave reason to believe, yes, the
feminist foreign policy andallied countries are up for the
task.
I mentioned earlier thispolitical declaration, which
brought together 31 signatories.
And I encourage everyone to gocheck out the full list because
(20:27):
it's an interesting mix ofcountries bringing in allies
from Eastern Europe, Europe,Africa, Latin America, I think a
couple from Asia as well.
And it contained many of theissues and language that
feminists have been calling forstates to stand up and protect.
And so not just to name acouple, we have women and girls'
bodily autonomy, we have SRHR,we have states not backing away
(20:49):
from language on safe abortioncare and maternal health, even
the recognition of the existenceof diverse forms of families
and the role of the state toprotect them.
It mentions the need to combatgender-based violence as not
only a national but also aninternational priority.
So this is another example ofthat international coherence
that we were talking aboutearlier.
And also clear connectionsbetween Feminist Foreign Policy
(21:10):
and climate change.
So, on the point ofdeclaration, it was exciting to
see that there was real effortsto reclaim the idea of the
family, but on feminist terms.
Spogmay (21:20):
Yeah, and I can share a little bit about the history
and legacy of these conferencesas well, is that they first
started back in 2022 when thegovernment of Germany introduced
this ministerial-levelconference to the world stage.
Then they passed the baton tothe government of the
Netherlands, which passed it tothe government of Mexico, and
(21:42):
then just this October to thegovernment of France.
So it's been really interestingto see the evolution of these
conferences over the years andsee how feminist foreign policy
is being increasingly platformedas an essential part of foreign
policy discussions and the waysin which civil society are a
part of that.
(22:02):
So an exciting outcome thatcame out of the French
conference was that thegovernment of Spain committed to
hosting the 2026 conference,which is really interesting
because Spain has really stoodout among this cohort of
countries.
As Jill mentioned, they'vetaken steps to implement
principles of their feministforeign policy into law.
(22:24):
It's been the only country torefuse to commit to NATO's
increased 5% spending target.
Earlier this year, Spain hostedthe fourth international
conference on financing fordevelopment.
So there's a real opportunitywe have coming up to advance a
lot of the issues that areimportant to sexual and
(22:45):
reproductive health and rights,like peace and security, like
funding and others that Spainhas stepped up in amongst this
cohort.
Also, as part of theconference, outside of the
formal plenary sessions, therewere a lot of interesting
discussions organized bypartners and led by civil
society, and sexual andreproductive health and rights
(23:06):
was a part of that.
So it was great to see thatthis is still a priority area
for the governments and thepartners showing up.
We also organized a session onbest practices and government
civil society collaboration,which is something that we see
as so integral to the success offeminist foreign policy, is how
our inside and outside actorsworking together to advance more
(23:29):
feminist principles.
What are ways in which we canmore effectively and
meaningfully push for thisagenda beyond just the buzzwords
of hosting consultations andpanel discussions?
But what does real partnershiplook like and how do we advance
that?
We're also excited at theCollaborative to be launching an
(23:49):
accountability project with thegovernment of France.
So over the next severalmonths, we'll be tracking
commitments that are made bygovernments anytime between now
and the next ministerialconference.
So definitely encourage folksto follow this, see what
developments can be made, howgovernments can step up, and
what commitments we can get outof the 2026 Spanish Ministerial
(24:12):
Conference.
Jennie (24:13):
So the other thing I've been thinking about, and I mean
you've raised the Genevaconsensus a couple times.
And as coined by RachelMoynihan, it is neither a
consensus nor base was it basedin Geneva.
It's just to put that outthere, but the real strength
we're seeing not strength, thatfeels wrong, but the growth and
(24:35):
proliferation of the anti-rightsmovement.
How are we kind of pushing backagainst this?
Jill (24:40):
Yeah, that's the million-dollar question, isn't
it?
Jennie (24:44):
Right?
Jill (24:45):
Yeah, no.
It's been I think at the top ofthis year, and I feel like most
a lot of the movement has beenreally kind of grinded down.
And the headlines are nothelping, the numbers that we're
citing are not helping.
But I think a little kind oflike a reframe that I heard um a
couple weeks ago was that we'refacing such immense backlash
(25:09):
right now.
It's because we were makingprogress, and I think we have to
keep that in mind is that wewere we're doing the right
things or we are beingeffective, and that's why we're
facing such vehement backlashacross so many different
sectors.
And we're seeing that one infour countries are reporting
backlash on women's rights in2024 because we're making
progress.
And I think that it's alsoimportant to look at how funding
(25:31):
for anti-rights actors is alsoexploding, just to be a bit more
systematic on understandingwhat is the architecture behind
this nebulous thing that we callanti-rights movement.
And if we can look at maybeEurope as kind of a microcosm of
what's definitely beingreplicated in different parts of
the quote-unquote global south,there was some research that
was published by the EuropeanParliamentary Forum, and they
(25:54):
issued two different reports,one back a couple years ago that
looked at funding for theanti-gender pushback movement in
European decision-making spacesfrom 2009 to 2018, and they
found that there was $700million that were being put to
support orgs that are lobbying,litigating, fear-mongering
(26:15):
around gender equality, SRHR,the rights of queer folk, and
some aspects of children'srights.
They recently updated thisreport based off of data from
2019 to 2023, and that numberhas more than doubled to 1.2
billion euros.
So the funding available foranti-gender pushback has more
than doubled in less than halfthe time.
(26:36):
So the context, and this is allhappening in the context of
huge philanthropic cuts for theinternational feminist uh
ecosystem with the disappearanceof a lot of cornerstone funders
for the movement.
The Alliance for FeministMovements, I think they
estimated that a minimum of$2.83 billion per year will be
introduced less into the fundingecosystem for feminist
(26:58):
movements.
At the same time, the the FFPcountries we surveyed and the
movement actors uh we we workwith are pushing back.
And I think it's funny becausewe're taking some lessons from
the aunties.
I think there are three thingsthat I think strategies that are
giving me hope, at least.
And the first one is aroundleveraging caucuses at the
United Nations.
We have uh something called theFeminist Foreign Policy Plus
(27:20):
group, which is an informalcaucus of FFP and what we call
FFP-curious member states thatare interested in coordinating
and that are strategizing aheadof key UN negotiations.
And we also have organizationslike our partners at the
Feminist Diplomacy Lab that arefilling a much-needed gap in
capacity training for thesenegotiators.
I think a second tactic thatwe're seeing the progressive uh
(27:43):
cohorts adopt is aroundprioritizing strategic
messaging.
This is something that antiesare very good at doing is
leveraging emotion, primarilyfear and anger to change public
opinion on things that we regardas self-evident and adapting
language depending on thepolitical context and audiences
that they're talking to.
So we've seen now FFPgovernments and civil society
paying a lot more attention todocumenting our wins and telling
(28:06):
the story of why FFP isimportant in order to be able to
fill that gap in the medialandscape.
And the final tactic that, asSpogmay has already mentioned,
but I think it's important tokind of it put in the context of
this and the framework whenwe're talking about anti-gender
backlash and how to push back isaround the institutionalization
of progress.
We're working on a playbookright now, and what we're trying
(28:28):
to do is we're trying toaggregate through strategies
with actual feministpolicymakers and activists,
aggregate strategies thatthey're using where they're able
to leverage legal avenues,budgetary ring fencing, and
other methods in order to beable to protect progress for not
if, but when administrationschange.
Jennie (28:46):
I feel like the another big challenge facing Feminist
Foreign Policy right now is justthe conflict and crisis we're
seeing all over the place.
What are some of the ways thatFeminist Foreign Policy is
working to deal with this bigcrisis right now?
Spogmay (29:00):
Yeah, I think one of the real strengths of Feminist
Foreign Policy— and we see thisamongst our partners and with
our networks— is that itprovides a framework for us to
address a host of issuesimpacting gender equality and
human rights.
So, those of us who work ingender, we see how a lot of the
times our approaches to advocacyand policy can be kind of
(29:23):
siloed.
We have folks working on SRHR,we have others working on
gender-based violence, we haveothers working on women, peace,
and security.
But Feminist Foreign Policy isreally an intentional effort to
bring a lot of that togetherunder the frame of Feminist
Foreign Policy and coherence.
So for us, we see it as reallyimportant to build greater
(29:46):
linkages between SRHR, conflict,crisis, and climate change.
You've had people on thispodcast, Jennie, who have shared
more about reproductiveviolence in Palestine, in Sudan,
in other conflict and crisissettings.
UNFPA describes Afghanistan,for example, as one of the most
(30:06):
dangerous places in the world togive birth.
So there's a real urgency ofaddressing sexual and
reproductive health and rightswithin a broader lens and
looking at these biggerstructural issues.
So feminist foreign policyhelps us to understand how these
issues are intertwined, and italso pushes governments to
(30:27):
address them in a more coherentway.
And we see that as reallyintegral as civil society
members, people in our communityare trying to get governments
to understand that, yes, you caninvest in suction reproductive
health and rights, but how faris that progress going to go if
(30:47):
there are also policies that areimpacting women's lives through
military expenditure, throughclimate change, through debt and
through taxation?
How can we look at broaderstructural issues and the
impacts that they have andmaking people's lives harder and
bringing that linkage to SRHR?
So feminist foreign policy isone lens to better cohesively
(31:12):
address this and something thatI think we're trying to
increasingly push for as we getdeeper and deeper into this
movement.
That's great.
Jennie (31:20):
I love that you're looking at the new areas to get
involved with, and I feel likeone of those areas is looking in
the digital space.
So, do we talk a little bitabout some of the work y'all are
doing around the digital space?
Jill (31:32):
We're seeing, at least in our corner, that there's an
increasing recognition of thesurge of violence and exclusion
that is accompanying theso-called digital transformation
and acceleration of AIdevelopment.
And we're seeing the emergenceof new forms of online and what
we're callingtechnology-facilitated
gender-based violence.
And these come in many scaryforms, including sex tortion and
(31:57):
doxing and cyberbullying,stalking, deep fakes, and
increasingly now, especiallywith the accessibility of
different kinds of AI, freeAI-generated platforms, the
development of AI-generatednon-consensual pornography.
And what this is doing is it'sshrinking online civic space for
these organizations to be ableto do their work and get their
messages out.
(32:17):
It's discouraging women to getin and stay in politics, and
it's threatening the securityand lives of many people,
including those of women's humanrights defenders that are
oftentimes leveraging theinternet to be able to expand
their message.
At least from our research,we've been able to see that most
FFP governments are reallyseeing this and they're
integrating feminist or at leastgender-sensitive principles
(32:40):
into their digital innovationsystems.
And I think it's also beenexciting to see how Feminist
Foreign Policy countries aretrying to get gender out of its
silo when it comes to talkingabout this kind of insular
insulated space of digitaldevelopment.
So we had, for example, Franceearlier this year hosted an AI
summit.
And within that summit, one ofthe main pillars to talk about
(33:02):
was gender equality.
This is a very good example ofhow states are trying to
integrate gender, feministforeign policy principles into
these spaces that usually don'tever hear about human-centered
approaches.
And at the end of the day, AIand other digital innovation has
enormous potential to helpidentify and combat gender
(33:23):
discrimination and gender-basedviolence, or to worsen them.
And I think that FeministForeign Policy, because the very
core of Feminist Foreign Policyis innovation, I think that
it's the proper framework andtool to be able to take on the
challenge of AI and the threatsthat it poses to gender
equality.
Jennie (33:43):
So, you know, with all of these threats you're seeing
and seeing some of the countriestaking a step back, it seems
like a really important to findnew ways to step to move forward
and finding new allies.
So tell us a little bit aboutsome of the stuff you're doing
in that area.
Spogmay (33:59):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think I'll highlight twothings here, which is first,
we've talked a lot about thegains that we've made through
feminist foreign policy and alot of the positive results that
we saw from our research, whichhas been so reaffirming.
But also just want to point outfeminist foreign policy as a
discourse has only existed forjust over a decade, which in the
(34:24):
broad scheme of foreign policyis not a very long time.
So this is still a prettymarginalized discourse in
broader foreign policyconversations.
And we at the collaborative andwith our partners really want
to be entering new spaces, wantto speak to people who are more
involved in mainstream foreignpolicy discussions, whether they
(34:47):
be about defense or security ortrade or immigration.
So we're looking at broadeningour alliances, seeing who we can
identify in new spaces, how wecan share that Feminist Foreign
Policy is a people-centeredapproach that supports all and
contributes to the advancementof democracy and things that are
(35:08):
really fraying right now inthis political context, and how
shifting our framework tounderstand foreign policy
through this lens can be sopowerful and so beneficial.
Another thing I'll point out isjust coming back to Jill's
points around the anti-rightsmovement.
The anti-rights movement hasbeen so successful in broadening
(35:30):
its own membership, its ownalliances, and exploiting things
like culture and religion andtradition.
But it's really important forus to remember that the rise in
anti-rights movements is it'snot something that is inherently
rooted in any culture orreligion or tradition.
It's just the exploitation ofsocial conservatism for power
(35:54):
and political gain.
So it's troubling to me thatthe feminist movement is the one
that cares about diversity andintersectionality and inclusion,
but the face of the anti-rightsmovement is actually oftentimes
more diverse than the face ofthe feminist movement.
So, we can and we should bespeaking to new audiences.
(36:14):
We should be understanding thatwomen's leadership and agency
and reproductive health are soimportant and foundational to so
many cultures, contexts, andcommunities.
And how do we use that tobetter understand people,
identify our sisters across thefeminist movement, and continue
pushing and broadening ouralliances, entering new spaces,
(36:37):
and hopefully one day winningagain.
Jennie (36:42):
So to get us winning again, we need to get more
people involved.
So I feel like this is a greattime to talk about what can our
audience do?
Like how can our audience getinvolved in this fight?
Spogmay (36:52):
Yeah, so I want to actually get back to the points
that we made aboutinstitutionalization.
And I know that that's a bigword, but in our paper, we had
the opportunity to identify acouple of strategies for what
sustaining feminist foreignpolicy or institutionalizing
feminist foreign policy lookslike.
So those five strategies arefirst policy, which is pushing
(37:15):
for legislative oradministrative frameworks.
Second, architecture, throughestablishing dedicated
departments or units for thiswork.
Third, budgetary, throughearmarking specific funds or
investment in key initiatives.
Fourth, leadership, throughtapping dedicated high-level
(37:36):
roles and positions.
And lastly, capacity throughstaff training on feminist
foreign or development policy.
So these are all differentstrategies that communities can
be pushing for.
We should be encouraging ourgovernments, our legislators,
our allies to be getting alittle bit more creative and
protecting gains for feministforeign policy when we have
(37:59):
them.
Of course, I think in thisdifficult funding period, in
this real political crisis,we've also really realized the
power of the feminist ecosystem.
So who's doing the policy work,who is on the front lines,
who's most at risk, and how canwe collectively step up?
So we definitely encourageworking in partnership with
(38:20):
others, working in coalitionwith others, checking out which
organizations are a part of thismovement and how we can get
involved.
There's a real eagerness forsupport across the feminist
community and across thefeminist ecosystem.
And of course, I think there'sa real opportunity now for
feminist foreign policygovernments and allies to rally
(38:42):
around this agenda.
So continuing to build linkagesbetween the domestic and the
international.
So those of us in the US, forexample, are facing
unprecedented things for thefirst time.
How do we lean into our alliesin other countries?
How do we get support from ourfeminist partners who have faced
(39:04):
similar crises in the past?
So, I think there's a lot tosay here around network
building, partnership, and alsopushing for those advocacy
changes that can protectconcrete wins when political
tides turn.
Jill (39:18):
And I think just one last thing that I wanted to tag on to
everything that Spogmay justsaid.
I think for if you're if you'relistening to this podcast, if
people are listening to thispodcast, you probably already
have your lane when it comes towomen's rights, gender equality,
SRH— whether that be the factthat you're the most progressive
person at the dinner table atChristmas, or if you actually if
(39:39):
you work in an organizationthat's dedicated to women's
rights, in any case, it's justimportant that we again maybe
take a lesson from the auntiesand remember that we need to
play the long game.
They've paid the long game;they've been patient; they have
been building political power;they've been raising the money;
they've been building networks,and we need to remember that it
is the moment is bleak rightnow, but we will find our way
(40:02):
through it.
And that strength that we findin each other, we need to reach
for it and we need to find newfriends, unlikely allies.
And just to reach for a quotefrom a uh Palestinian human
rights activist here in Paris,she said something that has
really stuck with me and I'vebeen really clinging to in the
past few years, really, which isthat, "the victory is in the
(40:23):
fight." And so just keepfighting and keep up to date.
You can connect with us withour newsletter or by joining the
Global Party.
Network for feminist foreignpolicy for updates and just
yeah, thank you for being in thefight and just thank yourself
and thank your community.
Jennie (40:40):
Thank you all so much for being here.
It was so great to get to talkto you about Feminist Foreign
Policy today.
Spogmay and Jill, it was great.
Thank you so much.
Jill (40:50):
Thanks, Jennie.
Spogmay (40:51):
Thank you, Jennie.
It's our pleasure.
Jennie (40:54):
Okay, y'all.
I hope you enjoyed myconversation with Spogmay and
Jill.
It was so great to hear whatwas new and happening around
feminist foreign policy.
And it's always great to checkback in in that area.
There's so many interestingthings happening.
And with that, I will seeeverybody for a special fun
bonus episode of SRHR HeroOrigin Stories next week.
(41:16):
And then we'll be off betweenChristmas and New Year's.
So with that, I'll see everyonenext week.
If you have any questions,comments, or topics you would
like us to cover, always feelfree to shoot me an email.
You can reach me atjennie@reprosfightback.com, or
you can find us on social media.
We're at rePROs Fight Back onFacebook and Twitter, or
(41:37):
@reprofb on Instagram.
If you love our podcast andwant to make sure more people
find it, take the time to rateand review us on your favorite
podcast platform.
Or if you want to make sure tosupport the podcast, you can
also donate on our website atreprosfightback.com.
Thanks all!
Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, a podcast on all things
related to sexual andreproductive health rights and
justice.
[music intro] Hi, rePROs.
How's everybody doing?
I'm your host, Jennie Wetter,and my pronouns are she/ her.
So, y'all, this was a funlittle week for me.
I just got back from a trip upto New York.
(00:55):
It's like my third trip in likefour weeks, which is wild
because I hadn't been to NewYork for, I don't know, at least
a year before that.
But I've had some been lucky tohave some really fun trips this
last month.
This most recent one, I washonored to be asked to come
speak to a class at the MailmanPublic Health School at Columbia
(01:15):
University.
I had so much fun getting totalk to those students.
They had such great and smartquestions for me.
It was just so much fun.
I was really honored to beasked, and it was so wonderful
getting to know the professorthat asked me out to come up and
getting to talk to the studentsand look around the campus a
little bit.
(01:35):
It was it was a great time.
I'm so glad I did it, and Ihope to do things like that
again.
I really loved the professor,she was so sweet.
Hi, Lauren.
Thank you for asking me to comeup and for your very, very kind
words.
Y'all, she had such kind wordsfor me at the end.
She made me cry in front of herstudents, but it was so much
(01:55):
fun, and I really had a greattime.
So thank you for asking me, andI can't wait to do something
like this again.
Let's see what else.
I feel like I came home and mycats thought I had like gone off
to war or something.
I they were so needy and whiny,they are finally settling down
now they've been home for uh alittle longer, a couple days.
(02:17):
But let's see what else did Ido.
Oh, yeah, I also got to see myold roommate again while I was
up in New York.
Uh, we went out for dinner andI had went out for a Korean
barbecue, which I think was likethe first time I've done that.
So that was a lot of fun.
It was really nice to get tosee her.
Yeah, it was just a really funlittle trip.
And I really enjoy going up toNew York every once in a while.
(02:41):
There's just so much fun thingsto do, so much great food to
eat.
Taking the train up is so easy,and um, yeah, it was a good
little trip.
I had a lot of fun.
Let's see, I'm trying to thinkif there is anything else
exciting for me to talk about.
I think those are like the bigthings going on.
I am getting ready for theholidays and we'll be seeing my
(03:05):
family soon, so that'll bereally nice.
Yeah, so those are the bigthings going on.
I think maybe let's just turnto this week's interview.
I am really excited.
We have we've talked aboutFeminist Foreign Policy before
on the podcast, but it's been awhile.
So I was really excited to haveum two wonderful guests from
the Feminist Foreign PolicyCollaborative come on to talk
(03:25):
about a new report they had thatthey released uh like a month
ago, I think.
Um, so with that, let's turn tomy interview with Jillian
Montilla and Spogmay Ahmed withthe Feminist Foreign Policy
Collaborative.
Okay, let's go to my interviewwith Jill and Spogmay.
Jill (03:45):
Hi, Jennie.
Thanks so much for having us.
Spogmay (03:48):
Thanks so much for having us.
Jennie (03:50):
Before we get started, let's do a quick round of
introductions.
Let's go reverse alphabetical.
The last interview I did, I didalphabetical, so let's do the
opposite this time. Spogmay, gofirst.
Spogmay (04:01):
Hi, my name is Spogmay Ahmed, and I am a Senior Policy
Advisor with the FeministForeign Policy Collaborative,
and I'm based in New York.
Jill (04:09):
Hi there, and I'm Jill Montilla.
I'm the Development andCommunications Associate with
the Feminist Foreign PolicyCollaborative, and I'm an
American based in Paris.
Jennie (04:19):
Wonderful.
I'm so excited to have y'all onhere.
We have talked about feministforeign policy before.
We had Lyric on, but it hasbeen quite a while.
So, I feel like we should maybestart with like the very basic
of like what is Feminist ForeignPolicy?
Spogmay (04:35):
Yeah, so Feminist Foreign Policy is a policy
framework that is challengingtraditional understandings of
foreign policy.
So, oftentimes when peoplethink of foreign policy, the
things that come to mind aredefense, military,
state-centered security, power,and competition.
Feminist Foreign Policy isreally an effort to shift away
(04:58):
from that framing and insteadtowards a more people-centered
approach to foreign policy.
So, it's prioritizing thingslike peace, gender equality,
human rights, and environmentalintegrity.
The principles and thepriorities of Feminist Foreign
Policy are really rooted inlegacies of feminist history and
organizing.
(05:19):
But as a policy framework, itwas first introduced to the
world stage by the government ofSweden in 2014.
And since then, upwards of 15governments have formally
committed to a feminist foreignor development policy, and many
more have engaged with the topicin regional and multilateral
settings.
At the Feminist Foreign PolicyCollaborative, we have our own
(05:43):
lengthy definition of a feministforeign policy, which I
definitely recommend folks checkout on our website,
ffpcollaborative.org.
But essentially, it describesfeminist foreign policy as the
policy of a state that disruptscolonial, racist, patriarchal,
and male-dominated powerstructures.
And we follow a 5R frameworkfor assessing a feminist foreign
(06:08):
policy.
Those include first, rights, sohow does a feminist foreign
policy ground human rights?
Second, resources, or what'sbacking up a commitment to a
feminist foreign policy.
Third, representation, which isnot just who's at the table
making these decisions, but alsohow are we really meaningfully
(06:31):
working with the communities whowill be most impacted by
foreign policy decision making?
Fourth, research and reporting.
So how are these commitmentsmeasurable?
How can we track theirprogress?
And lastly, reach, whicharguably is the most important
and also the hardest toimplement.
So reach is describingcoherence in foreign policy.
(06:54):
So, when we're calling for aFeminist Foreign Policy, we
don't just want feministcommitments in development aid
and security, we also want themin spaces like trade,
immigration, refugee assistance,and so on.
And also, is there a coherencebetween the commitments that
governments are making at homein their domestic policies and
(07:16):
in their foreign policies aswell?
So there's a lot packed inthere, but essentially I think
of it as a more people-centeredapproach to foreign policy
that's centering human dignityand the centralization of equity
and justice for all.
Jennie (07:32):
That's so great.
I really, I have really enjoyedthis idea. I've been involved
with Feminist Foreign PolicyCollaborative over the years,
and it really is just such amore, I mean, honestly, hopeful
vision for the world, right?
And it has always been great tolearn more as this has gone
forward over the years.
(07:53):
And so one of the big things isy'all just released a new
report on defining feministforeign policy.
What can you tell us about thefindings in the report?
Spogmay (08:02):
Yeah, so our defining Feminist Foreign Policy report
provides an overview of thestate of the field of Feminist
Foreign Policy.
And it's a report that we atthe Collaborative release every
two years.
So, this is the fourth editionof that report covering the
period 2023 to 2025.
And it's also our longest andmost comprehensive yet.
(08:23):
It provides an in-depthanalysis of over 20 countries
that have either committed to aFeminist Foreign Policy or are
interested in this agenda.
And I can share candidly thatwhen we first started this
report, we honestly thought thatthis was the beginning of the
end of Feminist Foreign Policy.
We started this research at atime when we were reading
(08:46):
headlines of genocide, loss, andclimate catastrophe.
Right-wing governments werewinning elections, several
governments were starting torenounce their Feminist Foreign
Policy commitments.
And in such a dark context, weexpected this to be our goodbye
letter to this movement.
But instead, we actually founda much more hopeful picture than
(09:07):
we anticipated and proof thatthis work is continuing in spite
of the most difficultcircumstances.
So, we found that FeministForeign Policies have actually
survived more elections thanthey have lost.
And in this time period,several governments developed
and expanded their feministforeign policies from Colombia
(09:27):
to France to Spain, including bypublishing new frameworks,
action plans, and commitments.
We also saw an increase inmultilateral, regional, and
bilateral activity around thisagenda, from the United Nations,
to what we call South-Southcooperation efforts, where
governments across the globalsouth are working together to
(09:49):
advance feminist foreign policyprinciples.
And we identified a number offirsts or things that
governments were doing for thefirst time to really sustain
wins around Feminist ForeignPolicy, whether that be things
like establishing gender unitsin their ministries of foreign
affairs or enshrining feministprinciples into law.
We also did a deep dive intofour pressing issue areas in
(10:13):
this report.
First, of course, sexual andreproductive health and rights,
which we'll get into, which wefound for this report, was both
an issue of consensus and one ofcontention.
Second, the case of Palestine,which led to a lot of breakdowns
in this field over the pastcouple of years.
We reviewed evolving policypositions, challenges to
(10:35):
government coherence, and theways in which the feminist
movement was stepping up andpushing back and using this
framework to advocate forgreater global justice.
Third, an official developmentassistance and looking at the
funding crisis around feministforeign policy and how these
commitments actually promotegovernments to invest more in
(10:56):
women's rights and genderequality.
And lastly, oninstitutionalization.
So, how do we sustain winsaround feminist foreign policy
and gender equality?
And this feels very real,particularly for those of us in
the United States, of when wehave a political window to
advance gender equality, how dowe make sure those gains aren't
(11:18):
so easily reversed whenpolitical tides turn?
So it's a long report, butdefinitely recommend taking a
deep dive into some of it.
Jennie (11:27):
So let's do like a little deep dive into one
particular section, and that'sthe sexual and reproductive
health and rights section.
Let's let's dig into it.
What do we see in this section?
Jill (11:38):
Totally, and I think that's why we're all here today,
right?
So, we found actually between2023 and 2025, FFP governments
have really taken up SRHR as anurgent priority and also a site
for collective action.
And this is something thatwe've been calling for since
2018.
So it's really good to see thisunity right now, especially
(11:59):
with the revival of the GenevaConsensus, which is an anti-SRHR
and anti-LGBTQIA plus rightsdeclaration signed on by I think
40 countries at this point.
And from our research, I thinkthere are two key trends that I
kind of want to tease out.
The first is around progress oncoherence.
This is something that we FFPadvocates talk about a lot, and
(12:21):
coherence between what a stateclaims to care about
internationally on the shinystages and what it actually does
at home.
So keeping this in mind, we wesaw promising leadership on
protecting SRH domesticallyamong FFP countries.
You've mentioned this before onthe podcast, but France, for
example, constitutionalized theright to abortion, and this was
in direct response to theoverturn of Roe v.
(12:42):
Wade.
And it's also an example ofthose institutionalization
efforts that Spock madementioned before, and something
that we encourageadministrations to do while you
still have the kind of politicalpower to be able to do so.
I think within also thiscoherence kind of trend, we also
saw leadership in Mexico,Luxembourg, and Chile, all who
made moves to eitherdecriminalize or
constitutionalize the freedom tohave an abortion since the
(13:04):
publication of the report withvarying degrees of success and
resistance.
And Spain has actually alsotaken the innovative step of
enshrining its uh developmentfinancing commitments for gender
equality and SRH specificallyinto law.
I think on to the second trendthat I think is relevant for the
listeners is uh aroundincreased coordination in uh
multilateral spaces andnegotiations.
(13:26):
This is significant because weare seeing a huge surge of
highly coordinated, well-fundedanti-rights actors occupying
these spaces, and they areeroding long-established norms
and language around SRHR,women's autonomy, the idea of
the family.
So seeing progressivecoalitions emerge to counter
them is actually reallyinspiring.
(13:46):
And for example, we sawColombia, France, and Spain
leverage their feminist foreignpolicies during UNCSW
negotiations in March this year,and they actually positioned
SRHR as a crucial component oftheir development cooperation.
And we also saw promisingcoordination at the Commission
on Population and Development inApril.
And most recently, and I thinkmost strikingly, is in just this
(14:08):
past October at the FourthMinisterial Conference on
Feminist Foreign Policy, whichwas hosted in Paris by the
government of France.
And the outcome of thisconference was a political
declaration, wherein 31countries committed to working
together on a number of keyissues for the movement,
including SRHR, and it even hadan explicit mention to the right
to safe abortion care.
(14:30):
So just to kind of wrap it up,we're we're in a context where
SRHR and abortion are often thefirst issues cut in the name of
consensus.
And also we're in a contextwhere these rights are facing
coordinated attack acrosssectors.
So the significance that wedidn't need to water down
language to get 31 countries tosay, hey, we need to work
together right now isn't lost onus.
Jennie (14:49):
You talk about the moment and you're seeing a lot
of pushback, particularly fromanti-rights groups, but you're
also seeing a couple of donorcountries, key donor countries
who have taken some steps awayfrom feminist foreign policy,
most notably Sweden, theNetherlands, and most recently
Canada.
What are we seeing with this?
Jill (15:09):
Yeah, Jennie, political declarations are important and
they're important for- it's animportant opportunity for states
to demonstrate their politicalwill, but at the end of the day,
you gotta follow the money,right?
So to be honest, the thefunding reality for
international feminist work isreally tough right now.
You know, we're even feeling itourselves here at the
collaborative for the for thefirst time.
We we've lost funding becauseone of our donors shifted away
(15:31):
from supporting US-basedorganizations in the current
climate.
And just to paint a more globalpicture, 11 donor countries
have announced substantial cutsto official development
assistance or ODA.
And this accounts for 75% ofall ODA that could amount to a
decline of over $56 billion overthe next two years.
And what does this mean?
(15:52):
And it means that half of thewomen's rights organizations
working in crisis settings,filling critical gaps for
services related to SRHR, arelikely to close their doors
within the next six months.
As the UN Special Repertoire onDebt said uh just in the
summer, um, when states makethese decisions, there is blood
on the budget line.
And I think this all begs thequestion of why we're here
(16:13):
today.
And the question is one of thequestions is that when a country
adopts a feminist foreignpolicy, does it actually lead to
any real change in developmentfinancing for gender equality?
And our research says yes.
And we found that there's acorrelation between a state
having an FFP and giving moremoney to feminist causes.
And we can see that from theresearch from our Senior Fellow,
(16:34):
Beth Woroniuk, that shelaunched in Paris, which dove
into the ODA commitments ofFeminist Foreign Policy
countries that belong to theOECD Development Assistance
Committee.
And she found that up until2023, compared to their non-FFP
counterparts, FFP countriesinvest more of their ODA budgets
into gender equality morebroadly.
They invest more intoinitiatives preventing and
(16:56):
responding to violence againstwomen.
They invest five times more ona percentage basis in women's
rights organizations.
And we also found thatcountries that announce feminist
foreign policies often launchspecial funding initiatives to
accompany them.
Special funding initiativesmeant specifically for feminist
organizations and ones that arealigned with feminist practice
around power sharing.
So this is what we're talkingabout with core, flexible,
(17:18):
multi-year funding that putsmore money into the hands of
actual practitioners.
I think one interesting datapoint that would I would be
remiss to not mention was thatwe found also that Feminist
Foreign Policy countriesactually don't fund higher than
the average when it comes toSRHR, though.
Something that we'vehighlighted, we need more
research to follow up on.
So, that's what the researchsays.
(17:40):
But if we want to zoom out andthink about the question of the
future of funding for FeministForeign Policy and SRHR, I think
there are three points that I'dlike to close off on here.
And the first is just toaddress the elephant in the
room.
Uh, this data only goes upuntil 2023.
So, we can expect that thesenumbers to drop in the next two
years, given the massive cutsthat have been recently
(18:02):
announced.
I think the second point that Iwant to mention is that we
can't lose sight of the factthat when we talk about ODA
cuts, whether they're comingfrom FFP or non-FFP countries,
ODA is just one part of a largerset of dynamics that determines
how this work actually getsfunded.
So I think it was in yourconversation with Anu Kumar, the
president of IPass earlier lastmonth.
(18:23):
Y'all discussed how the chaoscreated by USAID's dismantlement
is sparking a lot ofreshuffling of partnerships, new
thinking on how to move beyondUS financial assistance, and
just a lot of reimagination.
And in our corner of the FFPspace, we're seeing similar,
we're seeing a lot of thoughtleadership from our regional
partners, particularly those inAfrica, on how tax and debt
(18:46):
justice could provide avenues tofill these gaps.
So there are creative ways toovercome and think beyond the
current bleak funding reality.
And I think finally, like thepoint that I want to make is
that there's a gap between whatis announced when FFPs are
abandoned and what's actuallyhappening in terms of the
portfolios, the staffing.
And like you mentioned, Canadaand Prime Minister Kearney's
(19:09):
off-handed comment about Canadano longer having an FFP.
Well, you know, feministactivists, along with elected
officials and civil servants,are pushing back and saying,
hey, feminism and caring aboutgender equality are very much so
still part of our foreignpolicy.
And not just because it's theright thing to do, but because
it's a smart thing to do withour money.
And I think this is a reminderthat we need to continue to look
(19:31):
beyond the headlines and remainfocused and strategic.
Jennie (19:34):
So, you mentioned the Fourth Ministerial Meeting
earlier.
I feel like there's some moreto dig into around what happened
there.
Can we talk a little bit moreabout what happened at the
Ministerial Meeting?
Jill (19:46):
So, you know, my colleagues and I were looking at
2025 as a test case to see ifthis progressive cohort of
countries could act as a sort ofgeopolitical counter to the
rising authoritarianism andanti-rights backlash that we're
seeing, seeing as represented bythe bloc of 40 or so
governments backing theanti-abortion Geneva consensus.
(20:07):
And coming out of thisministerial conference on
feminist foreign policy, thefourth of its kind that was held
in Paris this past October, wehave reason to believe, yes, the
feminist foreign policy andallied countries are up for the
task.
I mentioned earlier thispolitical declaration, which
brought together 31 signatories.
And I encourage everyone to gocheck out the full list because
(20:27):
it's an interesting mix ofcountries bringing in allies
from Eastern Europe, Europe,Africa, Latin America, I think a
couple from Asia as well.
And it contained many of theissues and language that
feminists have been calling forstates to stand up and protect.
And so not just to name acouple, we have women and girls'
bodily autonomy, we have SRHR,we have states not backing away
(20:49):
from language on safe abortioncare and maternal health, even
the recognition of the existenceof diverse forms of families
and the role of the state toprotect them.
It mentions the need to combatgender-based violence as not
only a national but also aninternational priority.
So this is another example ofthat international coherence
that we were talking aboutearlier.
And also clear connectionsbetween Feminist Foreign Policy
(21:10):
and climate change.
So, on the point ofdeclaration, it was exciting to
see that there was real effortsto reclaim the idea of the
family, but on feminist terms.
Spogmay (21:20):
Yeah, and I can share a little bit about the history
and legacy of these conferencesas well, is that they first
started back in 2022 when thegovernment of Germany introduced
this ministerial-levelconference to the world stage.
Then they passed the baton tothe government of the
Netherlands, which passed it tothe government of Mexico, and
(21:42):
then just this October to thegovernment of France.
So it's been really interestingto see the evolution of these
conferences over the years andsee how feminist foreign policy
is being increasingly platformedas an essential part of foreign
policy discussions and the waysin which civil society are a
part of that.
(22:02):
So an exciting outcome thatcame out of the French
conference was that thegovernment of Spain committed to
hosting the 2026 conference,which is really interesting
because Spain has really stoodout among this cohort of
countries.
As Jill mentioned, they'vetaken steps to implement
principles of their feministforeign policy into law.
(22:24):
It's been the only country torefuse to commit to NATO's
increased 5% spending target.
Earlier this year, Spain hostedthe fourth international
conference on financing fordevelopment.
So there's a real opportunitywe have coming up to advance a
lot of the issues that areimportant to sexual and
(22:45):
reproductive health and rights,like peace and security, like
funding and others that Spainhas stepped up in amongst this
cohort.
Also, as part of theconference, outside of the
formal plenary sessions, therewere a lot of interesting
discussions organized bypartners and led by civil
society, and sexual andreproductive health and rights
(23:06):
was a part of that.
So it was great to see thatthis is still a priority area
for the governments and thepartners showing up.
We also organized a session onbest practices and government
civil society collaboration,which is something that we see
as so integral to the success offeminist foreign policy, is how
our inside and outside actorsworking together to advance more
(23:29):
feminist principles.
What are ways in which we canmore effectively and
meaningfully push for thisagenda beyond just the buzzwords
of hosting consultations andpanel discussions?
But what does real partnershiplook like and how do we advance
that?
We're also excited at theCollaborative to be launching an
(23:49):
accountability project with thegovernment of France.
So over the next severalmonths, we'll be tracking
commitments that are made bygovernments anytime between now
and the next ministerialconference.
So definitely encourage folksto follow this, see what
developments can be made, howgovernments can step up, and
what commitments we can get outof the 2026 Spanish Ministerial
(24:12):
Conference.
Jennie (24:13):
So the other thing I've been thinking about, and I mean
you've raised the Genevaconsensus a couple times.
And as coined by RachelMoynihan, it is neither a
consensus nor base was it basedin Geneva.
It's just to put that outthere, but the real strength
we're seeing not strength, thatfeels wrong, but the growth and
(24:35):
proliferation of the anti-rightsmovement.
How are we kind of pushing backagainst this?
Jill (24:40):
Yeah, that's the million-dollar question, isn't
it?
Jennie (24:44):
Right?
Jill (24:45):
Yeah, no.
It's been I think at the top ofthis year, and I feel like most
a lot of the movement has beenreally kind of grinded down.
And the headlines are nothelping, the numbers that we're
citing are not helping.
But I think a little kind oflike a reframe that I heard um a
couple weeks ago was that we'refacing such immense backlash
(25:09):
right now.
It's because we were makingprogress, and I think we have to
keep that in mind is that wewere we're doing the right
things or we are beingeffective, and that's why we're
facing such vehement backlashacross so many different
sectors.
And we're seeing that one infour countries are reporting
backlash on women's rights in2024 because we're making
progress.
And I think that it's alsoimportant to look at how funding
(25:31):
for anti-rights actors is alsoexploding, just to be a bit more
systematic on understandingwhat is the architecture behind
this nebulous thing that we callanti-rights movement.
And if we can look at maybeEurope as kind of a microcosm of
what's definitely beingreplicated in different parts of
the quote-unquote global south,there was some research that
was published by the EuropeanParliamentary Forum, and they
(25:54):
issued two different reports,one back a couple years ago that
looked at funding for theanti-gender pushback movement in
European decision-making spacesfrom 2009 to 2018, and they
found that there was $700million that were being put to
support orgs that are lobbying,litigating, fear-mongering
(26:15):
around gender equality, SRHR,the rights of queer folk, and
some aspects of children'srights.
They recently updated thisreport based off of data from
2019 to 2023, and that numberhas more than doubled to 1.2
billion euros.
So the funding available foranti-gender pushback has more
than doubled in less than halfthe time.
(26:36):
So the context, and this is allhappening in the context of
huge philanthropic cuts for theinternational feminist uh
ecosystem with the disappearanceof a lot of cornerstone funders
for the movement.
The Alliance for FeministMovements, I think they
estimated that a minimum of$2.83 billion per year will be
introduced less into the fundingecosystem for feminist
(26:58):
movements.
At the same time, the the FFPcountries we surveyed and the
movement actors uh we we workwith are pushing back.
And I think it's funny becausewe're taking some lessons from
the aunties.
I think there are three thingsthat I think strategies that are
giving me hope, at least.
And the first one is aroundleveraging caucuses at the
United Nations.
We have uh something called theFeminist Foreign Policy Plus
(27:20):
group, which is an informalcaucus of FFP and what we call
FFP-curious member states thatare interested in coordinating
and that are strategizing aheadof key UN negotiations.
And we also have organizationslike our partners at the
Feminist Diplomacy Lab that arefilling a much-needed gap in
capacity training for thesenegotiators.
I think a second tactic thatwe're seeing the progressive uh
(27:43):
cohorts adopt is aroundprioritizing strategic
messaging.
This is something that antiesare very good at doing is
leveraging emotion, primarilyfear and anger to change public
opinion on things that we regardas self-evident and adapting
language depending on thepolitical context and audiences
that they're talking to.
So we've seen now FFPgovernments and civil society
paying a lot more attention todocumenting our wins and telling
(28:06):
the story of why FFP isimportant in order to be able to
fill that gap in the medialandscape.
And the final tactic that, asSpogmay has already mentioned,
but I think it's important tokind of it put in the context of
this and the framework whenwe're talking about anti-gender
backlash and how to push back isaround the institutionalization
of progress.
We're working on a playbookright now, and what we're trying
(28:28):
to do is we're trying toaggregate through strategies
with actual feministpolicymakers and activists,
aggregate strategies thatthey're using where they're able
to leverage legal avenues,budgetary ring fencing, and
other methods in order to beable to protect progress for not
if, but when administrationschange.
Jennie (28:46):
I feel like the another big challenge facing Feminist
Foreign Policy right now is justthe conflict and crisis we're
seeing all over the place.
What are some of the ways thatFeminist Foreign Policy is
working to deal with this bigcrisis right now?
Spogmay (29:00):
Yeah, I think one of the real strengths of Feminist
Foreign Policy— and we see thisamongst our partners and with
our networks— is that itprovides a framework for us to
address a host of issuesimpacting gender equality and
human rights.
So, those of us who work ingender, we see how a lot of the
times our approaches to advocacyand policy can be kind of
(29:23):
siloed.
We have folks working on SRHR,we have others working on
gender-based violence, we haveothers working on women, peace,
and security.
But Feminist Foreign Policy isreally an intentional effort to
bring a lot of that togetherunder the frame of Feminist
Foreign Policy and coherence.
So for us, we see it as reallyimportant to build greater
(29:46):
linkages between SRHR, conflict,crisis, and climate change.
You've had people on thispodcast, Jennie, who have shared
more about reproductiveviolence in Palestine, in Sudan,
in other conflict and crisissettings.
UNFPA describes Afghanistan,for example, as one of the most
(30:06):
dangerous places in the world togive birth.
So there's a real urgency ofaddressing sexual and
reproductive health and rightswithin a broader lens and
looking at these biggerstructural issues.
So feminist foreign policyhelps us to understand how these
issues are intertwined, and italso pushes governments to
(30:27):
address them in a more coherentway.
And we see that as reallyintegral as civil society
members, people in our communityare trying to get governments
to understand that, yes, you caninvest in suction reproductive
health and rights, but how faris that progress going to go if
(30:47):
there are also policies that areimpacting women's lives through
military expenditure, throughclimate change, through debt and
through taxation?
How can we look at broaderstructural issues and the
impacts that they have andmaking people's lives harder and
bringing that linkage to SRHR?
So feminist foreign policy isone lens to better cohesively
(31:12):
address this and something thatI think we're trying to
increasingly push for as we getdeeper and deeper into this
movement.
That's great.
Jennie (31:20):
I love that you're looking at the new areas to get
involved with, and I feel likeone of those areas is looking in
the digital space.
So, do we talk a little bitabout some of the work y'all are
doing around the digital space?
Jill (31:32):
We're seeing, at least in our corner, that there's an
increasing recognition of thesurge of violence and exclusion
that is accompanying theso-called digital transformation
and acceleration of AIdevelopment.
And we're seeing the emergenceof new forms of online and what
we're callingtechnology-facilitated
gender-based violence.
And these come in many scaryforms, including sex tortion and
(31:57):
doxing and cyberbullying,stalking, deep fakes, and
increasingly now, especiallywith the accessibility of
different kinds of AI, freeAI-generated platforms, the
development of AI-generatednon-consensual pornography.
And what this is doing is it'sshrinking online civic space for
these organizations to be ableto do their work and get their
messages out.
(32:17):
It's discouraging women to getin and stay in politics, and
it's threatening the securityand lives of many people,
including those of women's humanrights defenders that are
oftentimes leveraging theinternet to be able to expand
their message.
At least from our research,we've been able to see that most
FFP governments are reallyseeing this and they're
integrating feminist or at leastgender-sensitive principles
(32:40):
into their digital innovationsystems.
And I think it's also beenexciting to see how Feminist
Foreign Policy countries aretrying to get gender out of its
silo when it comes to talkingabout this kind of insular
insulated space of digitaldevelopment.
So we had, for example, Franceearlier this year hosted an AI
summit.
And within that summit, one ofthe main pillars to talk about
(33:02):
was gender equality.
This is a very good example ofhow states are trying to
integrate gender, feministforeign policy principles into
these spaces that usually don'tever hear about human-centered
approaches.
And at the end of the day, AIand other digital innovation has
enormous potential to helpidentify and combat gender
(33:23):
discrimination and gender-basedviolence, or to worsen them.
And I think that FeministForeign Policy, because the very
core of Feminist Foreign Policyis innovation, I think that
it's the proper framework andtool to be able to take on the
challenge of AI and the threatsthat it poses to gender
equality.
Jennie (33:43):
So, you know, with all of these threats you're seeing
and seeing some of the countriestaking a step back, it seems
like a really important to findnew ways to step to move forward
and finding new allies.
So tell us a little bit aboutsome of the stuff you're doing
in that area.
Spogmay (33:59):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think I'll highlight twothings here, which is first,
we've talked a lot about thegains that we've made through
feminist foreign policy and alot of the positive results that
we saw from our research, whichhas been so reaffirming.
But also just want to point outfeminist foreign policy as a
discourse has only existed forjust over a decade, which in the
(34:24):
broad scheme of foreign policyis not a very long time.
So this is still a prettymarginalized discourse in
broader foreign policyconversations.
And we at the collaborative andwith our partners really want
to be entering new spaces, wantto speak to people who are more
involved in mainstream foreignpolicy discussions, whether they
(34:47):
be about defense or security ortrade or immigration.
So we're looking at broadeningour alliances, seeing who we can
identify in new spaces, how wecan share that Feminist Foreign
Policy is a people-centeredapproach that supports all and
contributes to the advancementof democracy and things that are
(35:08):
really fraying right now inthis political context, and how
shifting our framework tounderstand foreign policy
through this lens can be sopowerful and so beneficial.
Another thing I'll point out isjust coming back to Jill's
points around the anti-rightsmovement.
The anti-rights movement hasbeen so successful in broadening
(35:30):
its own membership, its ownalliances, and exploiting things
like culture and religion andtradition.
But it's really important forus to remember that the rise in
anti-rights movements is it'snot something that is inherently
rooted in any culture orreligion or tradition.
It's just the exploitation ofsocial conservatism for power
(35:54):
and political gain.
So it's troubling to me thatthe feminist movement is the one
that cares about diversity andintersectionality and inclusion,
but the face of the anti-rightsmovement is actually oftentimes
more diverse than the face ofthe feminist movement.
So, we can and we should bespeaking to new audiences.
(36:14):
We should be understanding thatwomen's leadership and agency
and reproductive health are soimportant and foundational to so
many cultures, contexts, andcommunities.
And how do we use that tobetter understand people,
identify our sisters across thefeminist movement, and continue
pushing and broadening ouralliances, entering new spaces,
(36:37):
and hopefully one day winningagain.
Jennie (36:42):
So to get us winning again, we need to get more
people involved.
So I feel like this is a greattime to talk about what can our
audience do?
Like how can our audience getinvolved in this fight?
Spogmay (36:52):
Yeah, so I want to actually get back to the points
that we made aboutinstitutionalization.
And I know that that's a bigword, but in our paper, we had
the opportunity to identify acouple of strategies for what
sustaining feminist foreignpolicy or institutionalizing
feminist foreign policy lookslike.
So those five strategies arefirst policy, which is pushing
(37:15):
for legislative oradministrative frameworks.
Second, architecture, throughestablishing dedicated
departments or units for thiswork.
Third, budgetary, throughearmarking specific funds or
investment in key initiatives.
Fourth, leadership, throughtapping dedicated high-level
(37:36):
roles and positions.
And lastly, capacity throughstaff training on feminist
foreign or development policy.
So these are all differentstrategies that communities can
be pushing for.
We should be encouraging ourgovernments, our legislators,
our allies to be getting alittle bit more creative and
protecting gains for feministforeign policy when we have
(37:59):
them.
Of course, I think in thisdifficult funding period, in
this real political crisis,we've also really realized the
power of the feminist ecosystem.
So who's doing the policy work,who is on the front lines,
who's most at risk, and how canwe collectively step up?
So we definitely encourageworking in partnership with
(38:20):
others, working in coalitionwith others, checking out which
organizations are a part of thismovement and how we can get
involved.
There's a real eagerness forsupport across the feminist
community and across thefeminist ecosystem.
And of course, I think there'sa real opportunity now for
feminist foreign policygovernments and allies to rally
(38:42):
around this agenda.
So continuing to build linkagesbetween the domestic and the
international.
So those of us in the US, forexample, are facing
unprecedented things for thefirst time.
How do we lean into our alliesin other countries?
How do we get support from ourfeminist partners who have faced
(39:04):
similar crises in the past?
So, I think there's a lot tosay here around network
building, partnership, and alsopushing for those advocacy
changes that can protectconcrete wins when political
tides turn.
Jill (39:18):
And I think just one last thing that I wanted to tag on to
everything that Spogmay justsaid.
I think for if you're if you'relistening to this podcast, if
people are listening to thispodcast, you probably already
have your lane when it comes towomen's rights, gender equality,
SRH— whether that be the factthat you're the most progressive
person at the dinner table atChristmas, or if you actually if
(39:39):
you work in an organizationthat's dedicated to women's
rights, in any case, it's justimportant that we again maybe
take a lesson from the auntiesand remember that we need to
play the long game.
They've paid the long game;they've been patient; they have
been building political power;they've been raising the money;
they've been building networks,and we need to remember that it
is the moment is bleak rightnow, but we will find our way
(40:02):
through it.
And that strength that we findin each other, we need to reach
for it and we need to find newfriends, unlikely allies.
And just to reach for a quotefrom a uh Palestinian human
rights activist here in Paris,she said something that has
really stuck with me and I'vebeen really clinging to in the
past few years, really, which isthat, "the victory is in the
(40:23):
fight." And so just keepfighting and keep up to date.
You can connect with us withour newsletter or by joining the
Global Party.
Network for feminist foreignpolicy for updates and just
yeah, thank you for being in thefight and just thank yourself
and thank your community.
Jennie (40:40):
Thank you all so much for being here.
It was so great to get to talkto you about Feminist Foreign
Policy today.
Spogmay and Jill, it was great.
Thank you so much.
Jill (40:50):
Thanks, Jennie.
Spogmay (40:51):
Thank you, Jennie.
It's our pleasure.
Jennie (40:54):
Okay, y'all.
I hope you enjoyed myconversation with Spogmay and
Jill.
It was so great to hear whatwas new and happening around
feminist foreign policy.
And it's always great to checkback in in that area.
There's so many interestingthings happening.
And with that, I will seeeverybody for a special fun
bonus episode of SRHR HeroOrigin Stories next week.
(41:16):
And then we'll be off betweenChristmas and New Year's.
So with that, I'll see everyonenext week.
If you have any questions,comments, or topics you would
like us to cover, always feelfree to shoot me an email.
You can reach me atjennie@reprosfightback.com, or
you can find us on social media.
We're at rePROs Fight Back onFacebook and Twitter, or
(41:37):
@reprofb on Instagram.
If you love our podcast andwant to make sure more people
find it, take the time to rateand review us on your favorite
podcast platform.
Or if you want to make sure tosupport the podcast, you can
also donate on our website atreprosfightback.com.
Thanks all!
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The Burden
The Burden is a documentary series that takes listeners into the hidden places where justice is done (and undone). It dives deep into the lives of heroes and villains. And it focuses a spotlight on those who triumph even when the odds are against them. Season 5 - The Burden: Death & Deceit in Alliance On April Fools Day 1999, 26-year-old Yvonne Layne was found murdered in her Alliance, Ohio home. David Thorne, her ex-boyfriend and father of one of her children, was instantly a suspect. Another young man admitted to the murder, and David breathed a sigh of relief, until the confessed murderer fingered David; “He paid me to do it.” David was sentenced to life without parole. Two decades later, Pulitzer winner and podcast host, Maggie Freleng (Bone Valley Season 3: Graves County, Wrongful Conviction, Suave) launched a “live” investigation into David's conviction alongside Jason Baldwin (himself wrongfully convicted as a member of the West Memphis Three). Maggie had come to believe that the entire investigation of David was botched by the tiny local police department, or worse, covered up the real killer. Was Maggie correct? Was David’s claim of innocence credible? In Death and Deceit in Alliance, Maggie recounts the case that launched her career, and ultimately, “broke” her.” The results will shock the listener and reduce Maggie to tears and self-doubt. This is not your typical wrongful conviction story. In fact, it turns the genre on its head. It asks the question: What if our champions are foolish? Season 4 - The Burden: Get the Money and Run “Trying to murder my father, this was the thing that put me on the path.” That’s Joe Loya and that path was bank robbery. Bank, bank, bank, bank, bank. In season 4 of The Burden: Get the Money and Run, we hear from Joe who was once the most prolific bank robber in Southern California, and beyond. He used disguises, body doubles, proxies. He leaped over counters, grabbed the money and ran. Even as the FBI was closing in. It was a showdown between a daring bank robber, and a patient FBI agent. Joe was no ordinary bank robber. He was bright, articulate, charismatic, and driven by a dark rage that he summoned up at will. In seven episodes, Joe tells all: the what, the how… and the why. Including why he tried to murder his father. Season 3 - The Burden: Avenger Miriam Lewin is one of Argentina’s leading journalists today. At 19 years old, she was kidnapped off the streets of Buenos Aires for her political activism and thrown into a concentration camp. Thousands of her fellow inmates were executed, tossed alive from a cargo plane into the ocean. Miriam, along with a handful of others, will survive the camp. Then as a journalist, she will wage a decades long campaign to bring her tormentors to justice. Avenger is about one woman’s triumphant battle against unbelievable odds to survive torture, claim justice for the crimes done against her and others like her, and change the future of her country. Season 2 - The Burden: Empire on Blood Empire on Blood is set in the Bronx, NY, in the early 90s, when two young drug dealers ruled an intersection known as “The Corner on Blood.” The boss, Calvin Buari, lived large. He and a protege swore they would build an empire on blood. Then the relationship frayed and the protege accused Calvin of a double homicide which he claimed he didn’t do. But did he? Award-winning journalist Steve Fishman spent seven years to answer that question. This is the story of one man’s last chance to overturn his life sentence. He may prevail, but someone’s gotta pay. The Burden: Empire on Blood is the director’s cut of the true crime classic which reached #1 on the charts when it was first released half a dozen years ago. Season 1 - The Burden In the 1990s, Detective Louis N. Scarcella was legendary. In a city overrun by violent crime, he cracked the toughest cases and put away the worst criminals. “The Hulk” was his nickname. Then the story changed. Scarcella ran into a group of convicted murderers who all say they are innocent. They turned themselves into jailhouse-lawyers and in prison founded a lway firm. When they realized Scarcella helped put many of them away, they set their sights on taking him down. And with the help of a NY Times reporter they have a chance. For years, Scarcella insisted he did nothing wrong. But that’s all he’d say. Until we tracked Scarcella to a sauna in a Russian bathhouse, where he started to talk..and talk and talk. “The guilty have gone free,” he whispered. And then agreed to take us into the belly of the beast. Welcome to The Burden.