February 4, 2025 • 35 mins
The global gag rule, which prevents non-governmental organizations who receive U.S. global health funding from providing, counseling on, referring for, or advocating for abortion in their own country and using their own, private resources, has been reinstated by President Trump. Lori Adelman, Executive Director of Planned Parenthood Global, and Caitlin Horrigan, Senior Director of Global Advocacy at Planned Parenthood Federation of America, sits down to talk with us about what the expanded global gag rule is, what it means for health practitioners and patients abroad, and how it can be repealed.
When the global gag rule is in place, there is a deep disrupting in health service delivery, bolstering an anti-human rights agenda globally, undermining trust in medical providers, and weakening civil society allies. Communities have less access to centralized, essential care, which can force people to turn to unsafe methods of abortion. Thankfully, there are policy solutions. The Global Health, Empowerment, and Rights Act (Global HER Act), which was reintroduced this week, would take away presidential power to reinstate the global gag rule.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to Repro Fight Back a podcast on all
things related to sexual andreproductive health rights and
justice. Hi re pros . How'severybody holding up? I'm your
host Jenny Wetter and mypronouns are she her. So y'all,
before we get to all of thechaos, let's do like a little
(00:25):
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(00:47):
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(01:54):
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us keep the podcast going.
Okay, I guess that's enoughhousekeeping. And now we can
turn to just like all of thechaos y'all, this, this two
(02:14):
weeks has just been a whirlwindof chaos. There's just like no
better way to describe it.
Policies are flying fast andfurious that are gonna
devastate people's lives likeso hard to keep up on all the
things. It changes from hour tohour and it's so hard to keep
up. We are going to do our bestto make sure that we are doing
(02:39):
episodes on the ones that arerelevant to sexual reproductive
health and rights and as muchas we can, as soon as I can
find people to come and talkabout them . Right now we're
working on to find somebody tocome and talk about all of the
anti-trans executive actions.
There have been so many, it'sjust been a real onslaught of
attack on transgender rightsand it is just heartbreaking.
(03:02):
And to our trans friends, wesee you, we support you. We are
here in this fight with you. Wewill be talking about all of
those things in an episodecoming up soon. We're working
on it. Yeah. And that betweenthat and the 90 day pause on
(03:23):
all foreign assistance, y'all ,it is bad. It is cutting off
programs that are lifesavingfor so many people. Whether
it's global health programslike pepfar, which is an HIV
program, the family planningprogram, humanitarian
assistance or mind clearing,like all this foreign
(03:46):
assistance work that is savinglives around the world has been
paused. And that is justabsolutely devastating. Again,
this is another one of thosewhere it's just like kind of
chaotic and and changing fromtime to time. So, you know,
between now when I'm recordingit and when you're hearing it,
maybe that has changed some.
Again, it's one of thosepolicies that we'll try to have
(04:08):
somebody on the podcast in thenear future to talk about what
is going on, to understand whatthis policy is going to mean
for people's lives around theworld. It's just pretty
devastating. Yeah, there's justso much happening and executive
actions and executive ordersare flying fast and furious and
they're so many that are justgonna be devastating to so many
(04:29):
people in the US and around theworld. And it's just, I can't
keep up . Like I, evenwith just the ones related to
the things I work on, it's hardto keep up. So I can't imagine
trying to keep up with the fullsuite and there's just so much
happening and we all need tomake sure that we are fighting
(04:52):
when we are able and tellingpeople about what is happening,
taking care of ourselves at thesame time, again, I know it
sounds so trite, but this isreally, it's gonna be a really
long marathon and so you needto step back when you need to
and not burn yourselves out.
And I, I am saying that just asmuch for myself who has a
(05:15):
really hard time not just goingall in and burning myself out
'cause I always feel like Ineed to do more, but it is
really important to take thosesteps back when you can. You
know, I've talked about as muchas I'm able and work to like
encouraging our repro team totake mental health days when
they need them so that they canrest and recharge. I'm trying
(05:36):
to be better about making surethat I'm taking them too, so
they know that it's okay. Soreally thinking about what you
can do for yourself andsupporting the people around
you is really important rightnow. Yeah, there's just so much
happening. I , I think withthat, let's go to this week's
episode 'cause I'm reallyexcited to talk to our two
(05:57):
wonderful guests about theglobal gag rule, which is one
of those policies that wasreinstated during the first
week of the Trumpadministration and , uh, have
two wonderful people on to talkabout it. Lori Edelman, who's
the executive director ofPlanned Planned Parenthood
Global and Kaitlyn Horgan withPlanned Parenthood Federation
of America. I'm really excitedto talk to the two of them
(06:20):
about what is happening and howyou can get involved. So with
that, let's go to my interviewwith Kaitlyn and Lori . Hi Lori
. Hi Kaitlyn . Thank you somuch for being here today.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Hi Jenny . So good to be here.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
Hi Jenny . Thanks for having us.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Always excited to have y'all on. Um, before we
get started, let's take a quicksecond and do introductions.
Um, and do you want to do likeyour name, pronouns, anything
else you wanna include? Um,Lori , would you like to go
first?
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Sure. So I'm Lori a and I use she , her and hers.
Uh, for my pronouns, I am theexecutive director of Planned
Parenthood Global. So we arethe international arm of PPFA ,
which folks probably , uh,already know and hopefully very
much love , um, or else theyreally deeply hate. Um, and
(07:10):
then in which case, you'reprobably not listening to this
podcast. Um, I also have abackground in feminist media.
So I have my own podcast calledCringe Watchers with another
SRHR Friend and champion, SRHRbeing Sexual and Reproductive
Health and Rights Advocacy. Um,and so Layla with my colleague
(07:31):
Leila Darby , um, which is verymuch aligned with the ethos of
this podcast. And I workclosely with Caitlyn , your
other guest today,
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Just to flag. It's called Cringe Watchers and
everybody should definitelycheck it out.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Thank you, Jenny .
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Okay, Caitlyn .
Speaker 3 (07:44):
Hi all. I'm Caitlyn Horrigan. I use she her
pronouns and I'm the seniorDirector of global advocacy at
Planned Parenthood Federationof America, PPFA for short. Uh,
and in that role I am anadvocate for the US government
to do everything they can inforeign policy and foreign
funding to advance sexual andreproductive health and rights
(08:04):
around the world. So I'mjoining you from the front
lines in Washington DC wherewe've had quite a tumultuous
few weeks.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Yeah, I think the important thing we need to do
at the start is like we arerecording this on Wednesday,
January 29th. It has been chaosfor like this first week and a
half and who knows what's gonnahappen between the time we
record and when y'all listen toit on Tuesday. So it just seems
really important to be like,it's Wednesday at like two 30,
(08:34):
so things can change betweennow and then. Okay. So the big
thing we have, I mean, again,so many things happen. There
are so many things we can talkabout. The slice of the pie
we're gonna tackle today is theglobal gag rule . And I think a
lot of our audience may befamiliar with it, but there may
be people who aren't asfamiliar. So it seems like a
(08:55):
good chance to be like, what isthe global gag rule?
Speaker 3 (08:58):
Sure. I can tackle that one. And I had the same
thought, Jenny . Sadly, most ofyour regular listeners probably
know this policy quite well ,um, because I know you've
talked about it here and that's'cause it's a policy that's
been kicking around for over 40years and has been enforced or
lifted every time there's achange in the US presidency.
(09:19):
Um, so we're here today talkingabout it because President
Trump just again, forces policyon the world which bans non-US
non-governmental organizationswho receive US global health
program funding from providingcounseling, referring or even
advocating for abortion intheir own country, using their
(09:42):
own private resources. Um, andso when we talk about this, you
know, we're talking aboutprograms that are meant to
expand access to contraception,to prevent and treat HIV to
combat malaria, to improvematernal and child health, huge
global challenges. And we'redisqualifying essential
organizations who know how todo this work and reach the
(10:03):
communities most at need. Ithink it's worth mentioning
that this version of the policythat we've seen reintroduced
just now with Trump's secondterm, same version we saw in
the first term, they radicallyexpanded this policy. So it's
always been bad to be clear,any version of a gag rule is
bad, but they have taken a badpolicy and made it so much
worse and really expanded theharms radically that we know
(10:26):
all too well. , I wishfor a day where I don't have to
explain it anymore, where it'sdead and gone.
,
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Right? Yeah, that's absolutely right. And Caitlyn ,
I'm always just , um, sograteful to hear you explain
this even though I've probablyheard you explain it over a
hundred times now , uh,. But no, you're, you're su
such a deep , uh, pool ofknowledge on this awful, awful
policy. And there's a couplethings that I just like to
(10:55):
reiterate to folks who are justlike, learning about this or
just to re reiterate for myselfbecause it makes me really mad.
Um, so one, this policy applieseven if you only take a dollar
of US funding. Um, and so youcould be wanting to use your
own budget , um, to work onabortion, let's say, and keep,
(11:18):
try to keep that separate fromthe US funding that is not
possible under this policy. Andfor me, what that means is this
policy is also incrediblyanti-democratic. Um, and it is
fundamentally restricting notonly of free speech , um, but
the autonomy of communitiesaround the world to make their
own informed decisions andactions , um, about their own
(11:43):
lives . And so that issomething that, that really
bothers me. And the other thingthat I, I think it's kind of so
important to understand is thatthere are already laws that
prevent federal po federalfunds from going towards
abortion. I do not agree withthose laws here , here . I
think those those lawsshould also be abolished. But
(12:06):
let's say there's one of youout there who thinks, oh, well,
you know, we might as well notbe spending our federal dollars
on this. That's not what thispolicy is. Um, and so that's,
those are just two of themisconceptions that I, I do
hear going around about thepolicy and , and two things
that I think make it even thatmuch more egregious. But to
your point, Caitlyn , it's it'segregious enough. Yeah, I
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Think one of the things I think about a lot,
particularly around like howthe first round of the Trump
administration vastly expandedit, as Caitlyn said, it was
always bad, but following, whenTrump expanded it, it was after
eight years of the Obamaadministration doing work to
integrate health services. Soall of a sudden you have this
(12:47):
expansion when you started tosee clinics bring all their
services together. So, youknow, money that may be going
for, like Caitlyn said tomalaria, you had this clinic
that was now a one-stop shopwhere you could go and get any
of the care you needed wouldalso maybe get flagged by this.
So it, it just, it was soharmful and like, like we're
(13:09):
saying, it was harmful when itwas only family planning money,
but like the harm became somuch greater.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
Yeah, that's exactly right Jenny . And you don't
have to have traveled the worldto understand and appreciate
why integrated care is good forhealthcare and good for real
people's lives. Like we allbenefit when we can go to the
doctor and get multiple needsmet and trust that our
providers can give us realinformation to make decisions
about our own bodies andfuture. So, you know that
(13:37):
that's a good thing inhealthcare and it's a travesty
that this policy is trying tounwind that and make people run
all around town to get care andinformation. That should be a
basic human right.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Exactly. And we know of course, which people we're
talking about that are thehardest hit by that. So maybe
if you have a little moreflexibility in your work from
home at an office job, okay,you can make two different
stops to get your HIV and yourSRHR care. Um, but you're , if
you are someone who is already, um, living at the margins,
(14:10):
you're already facing multipleoverlapping barriers to care.
You are an adolescent, you'reliving in a rural area, you are
living with a low income,you're living with hiv aids,
that additional stop or that ,um, bifurcation of care is not
actually just a barrier. It canoften be a death sentence. And
(14:30):
that's, that's actually whatwe're talking about with this
policy.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Oh , that's like a great transition. 'cause I was
gonna , my next question wasgonna talk be let's talk about
the impacts. So what, what dowe, what have we seen from when
the global gag rule is inplace? And honestly, even when
it's not, it has trailingimpacts.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
You know, one of the things that I think, think is
so pernicious about this is theway that it weakens civil
society and really causes deepfissures in our movement , um,
between those who end upsigning and those who end up
not signing the gag rule evenwhere they may have otherwise
continued to be close alliesand partners and share mission
(15:10):
alignment. So, you know,planned Parenthood has
commission studies and we, wehave major findings on the gag
rules impact, and that's numberone, a weakened civil society
of course. Secondly, we see adeep disruption of health
service delivery and I'm, I'msure so many of our partners
around the world can talk aboutthat. And lastly, it's really
(15:32):
bolstering and emboldening toan anti-human rights agenda
worldwide. And we see achilling effect where , um,
unfortunately the message issent that this is the values of
the, of the American people andtherefore we, we tend to see
copycats, we tend to see , um,opposition leaders, you know,
(15:53):
taking this and, and runningwith it and using this to
further an anti rights and antihealth agenda. And so those are
sort of three areas that areunfortunately where we're
seeing deep impact.
Speaker 3 (16:03):
Yeah, and I'll just pick up and add, you know, I
think we started by namingthose who are most
disproportionately impacted andharmed by this policy. And I
know we're not gonna get intoall the other bad things that
the Trump administration hasdone already, but just to say,
right, this is not the onlyattack that they are
experiencing. There were somany , uh, harmful executive
(16:24):
orders aimed at those very samecommunities. So the compounding
impact and harm, right? It'snot just about the gag rule,
it's about all those ways thattheir health and dignity and
rights are being attacked bythis administration. You know,
I think Lori's exactly right,and I think many people of
course understand this as ananti-abortion policy, but maybe
underappreciate how much theharms hit so many other
(16:48):
services. And again, that's'cause of the point you brought
up Jenny , that care isintegrated. Providers aren't
just out there offering oneservice. So when clinics close
and there's lots of documentedexamples of where health
centers have had to close ornurses have been , uh, laid off
as a result of the policy,communities lose access to a
(17:08):
whole entry point for servicesand care contraception. Again,
HIV maternal and child health,like you , you name it, they're
losing it. And you know, itdoesn't take , uh, PhD
researcher to tell you thatwhen people lose access to
care, more people areexperiencing unintended
pregnancies. And in the areasof the world where the US is
(17:29):
working in, of course that'smeaning more unsafe abortion
and ultimately more peopledying. And, you know, we , we
talk about those servicedelivery impacts a lot. I , I
think what Lori brought up isso right, like it's just as
destructive and less understoodthe impact on, you know,
destroying coalitions who aretrying to work together to
tackle big challenges andreally stifling that local
(17:53):
advocacy effort, which seemslike it should be a core
American value. People shouldbe able to speak up and
participate in public policydebates happening in their own
country. But the gag activelyblocks healthcare providers
from doing just that. And theonly other thing I think that's
worth noting because, you know,we've been dealing with this
policy for 40 years, I thinkit's even worse now because
(18:13):
we've seen a really welcomeglobal trend where so many
countries are stepping forwardto liberalize access to
reproductive healthcare ,including abortion. The US
obviously a clear and notableoutlier in going backwards. But
now what the gag rule meanswhen it comes into place is
it's really holding people backfrom getting care that is
legally available in theircountry. And even information
(18:35):
about where they could accessthat care. So in some ways I
think that global gag rule asthe world makes progress and
expands and liberalize asaccess, the global gag role is
even worse 'cause it's holdingpeople back from that hard
fought for local gains. Yeah,
Speaker 1 (18:49):
I think the other thing I think about is how it
undermines trust in thehealthcare system. If you're
going to a provider and you arepregnant and don't want to be,
and you're asking them forinformation that they can't
give you, like that underminestrust in in the provider, you
may not go back and it's hardto like, okay then the policy
(19:09):
ends that doesn't magicallybring the people back to the
healthcare system. The clinicsdon't immediately reopen. Like,
I I just find the harms justkind of continue to ripple out.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Yeah. Um, we know this in the us um, and we know
this globally, it is deeplyunpopular, confusing , uh, and
unhelpful for politicians to beinterfering with personal
healthcare decisions. You donot want politics in that room
with you. It does erode trust.
(19:42):
Imagine, you know, trying toroll out a vaccine delivery
program. And this is somethingthat has eroded trust in the
community or is underminingclarity about who can provide
what services and when. Um,that's just really
unacceptable. And we see , uh,for an administration that, you
know, claims to be focused somuch on efficiency, that this
(20:05):
policy creates new financialand operational challenges for
both complying and nonlyingorganizations. Um, and
especially has , uh, a veryconfusing effect on not only ,
uh, civilian populations, buton people who are, you know,
very well versed and trained tounderstand these things. It's
(20:27):
still very , uh, unclear howthey should be implementing
this and why. So we tend to seean over implementation or a lot
of misinformation that is alsogonna be undermining long-term
trust and , and you know, thestrengthening of the overall
healthcare system.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
Yeah. And thinking about that trust , um, message,
Lori and , and Jenny that youboth mentioned, I think that's
spot on. And it also reallyundercuts one of the messages
that I always hear fromRepublican administrations who
say, well, the global gag ruledoesn't really shift, doesn't
reduce our funding, right?
We're just shifting to adifferent partner. The idea
(21:04):
that that trust transfers to adifferent partner at the
community level, I think is sowrong. And I think it's
especially true when you thinkabout the special care , um,
and services that young peopleneed or that LGBT communities
need. You know, they're notjust gonna pick up and show up
(21:24):
for healthcare , um, you know,wherever the US government
tells them to, simply becausethey've decided to upend the
partnership. You know, peopleare gonna lose services. So ,
um, I think that that trustmessage is, is so key and
underappreciated. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
I it's so frustrating to be back in this
position again where we knowpeople are going to suffer and,
and not be able to access thecare they need. And yeah, it ,
it , it just feels like , uh,helpless to do things to fix
it, which is so frustrating'cause we spend so much of our
(22:01):
time trying to end this policyand make sure it doesn't come
back. So what do we need to doto ensure that we can like, get
rid of it once and for all?
Speaker 3 (22:09):
Well, there are a lot of things that we can do. I
mean, one tangible thing I'llflag is that there is actually
a piece of legislation that wasimmediately reintroduced after
Trump instated the policy thatwould permanently end the
global gag rule and really takethat power away from the
president to turn on a dime andupends global programs around
(22:31):
the world. So that's the GlobalHealth Empowerment and Rights
Act. We shorthand call it theGlobal Her Act 'cause we love
an acronym in this space , butit was just reintroduced in the
House and Senate and PPFA andso many partners who work
across health, human rights,gender equality issues, are
really proud to support thatlegislation. And it's really
(22:52):
linked to our core belief thatpoliticians should not be
interfering with personalhealthcare decisions, whether
in the US or around the world.
And I think it's worth notingthat it's also in line with
what we know the Americanpeople want. Um, we did polling
last year that found that theglobal gag rule is really
deeply unpopular withAmericans. I mean, truly across
(23:14):
every demographic. And peoplehad really deep serious
concerns about the harmfulimpacts of the policy,
especially on worseninghealthcare . And I think it's
personal now for Americans in away that perhaps it wasn't
always before. You know , uh,with two years living without
the right to abortion post-opspeople get what this means,
what abortion restrictions andlosing access to care means.
(23:39):
And we saw an extension of thatempathy when they were looking
at a policy like the global gagrule . And that's why you see
strong majorities of Americanswanting to end the policy for
good, which, you know,hopefully someday will happen
and we can stop working on itand we can talk about something
else on the podcast,
Speaker 1 (23:56):
. Yeah.
Wouldn't that be nice? Uh, I Iwas just like thinking, you
know, and you talk about howdeeply unpopular it is with all
of the chaos of this last weekand a half at this point, and
it coming out late Friday, likewe were not in theory working
(24:18):
anymore. It got lost in, inlike all of the chaos and like
try as all of us might to pushto make sure that people were
aware of it. It was one ofthose things that felt like it
really got lost in the shufflebetween all of the million of
other crisis chaos points therewere , um, last week.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Yeah, I think that's true. And I, I think, you know,
the fact that I believe Trumpsigned this on a plane this
time around at the same timethat he also was, you know,
about to land in California and, um, signed a bunch of other
messed up things, to yourpoint, Jenny , on that same
(25:01):
plane ride as well. Um, but Iwish I could say that I think
that's the only reason thisdidn't get a lot of attention,
, um, you know, having,I know we're all, all world
weary and true and , uh, youknow, battle tested in this
work, but , um, you know, Ithink I've lived through this
before and I can't say that theliteracy among Americans on
(25:26):
this work is where it, it couldbe, right? And I wish we could
have taken an advantage earlieron to of , of prior
opportunities to , um, makethis a little bit harder to do.
But I just don't know thatthere's as much engagement as
there could and should be. Um ,but maybe now is the moment
because again, if you'resomeone who, you know, believes
(25:49):
in child health, if you'resomeone who believes in HIV
prevention, you know, if you'resomeone who believes in
humanitarian support , um, youknow, this, this is a policy
to, to be paying attention to.
And I do think with COVID-19,we, we also were reminded and
um, and uh , deeply connectedto how all of our fates are
(26:11):
linked and tied . And , uh, Ithink this, this move has made
all of us less safe, moresusceptible to illness, all
kinds of illness and , uh,preventable ones at that. And
so that's something that I hope, um, if we can even appeal to
people's understandableself-interest. This is a policy
(26:31):
that I think could come intosharp relief in this moment for
that reason. Yeah,
Speaker 1 (26:36):
I, I'm holding out hope. It's one of those like
foreign assistance not gettingas much attention in general,
so it makes sense , um, even ifit shouldn't , um, that it,
that it kind of flies under theradar. So now we've talked
about how we should , could getrid of the policy and you know,
(26:57):
I, I like to think that that'snot enough. So, so what else
should we be doing? Well,
Speaker 2 (27:04):
I don't know about you all, but the past few weeks
it's been a little bit hard tolike step back and dream. Um,
I've been really mired in theday-to-day work of responding
and reacting to a slew of awful, um, updates and actions. But
at some point I really feellike it's important for our
(27:28):
movement, and I use that wordvery broadly and with a big
tent approach to really imaginewhat a resilience could look
like and do some futureproofing that like, takes into
account the most evilpossibilities that could, could
happen to us. And really thinkabout getting innovative and
getting ruthless in how westructure our work and how we
(27:52):
think about being able to scaleup and scale back really, you
know, quickly or to moveresources where they need to be
moved in , in new andinnovative ways. So that's just
a conversation that I'm gonnaput out there and invite folks
to join. Uh , 'cause I think weneed new voices. We need, you
(28:13):
know, really we need folks witha lot of experience. We need
folks who are brand new tothese conversations to , um,
all really come to this workand, and be excited to, to
think boldly together and , um,take some risks together.
'cause I think that's alsogonna be important for pushing
back. And so I know at PlannedParenthood we're also having
(28:34):
those conversations, not thisweek, but , um, but we
are having those conversationsand I'm, I'm excited to kind of
be able to share more aboutthat in the future in a way
that isn't reacting moment tomoment , but is is really about
thinking super long term andhaving that our own 30 year
agenda that's gonna knocksomeone else's, you know, kind
(28:57):
of socks off.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
Ugh . I love that.
Like, I, we spend, so we haveto focus on like the details
and like where the next attackis coming from, whether that's
global gag rule or worryingabout what are , what's gonna
happen to the gender programsor things like that. Worrying
about like seeing anti-transstuff really expand in the
(29:19):
global space. And it's so easyto get caught up in like
protecting the ground wealready have and like fighting
tooth and nail for astandstill, which is so hard to
be inspired by at times thatit's so exciting to like, think
about the dreaming big and likeplanning for like a much more
(29:42):
positive vision of like 30years from now. But it, it's so
easy to get caught up in likethe next thing that's on fire
or trying to make sure thateverything doesn't burn down at
the same time. Um, that it canbe hard to dream big. But I
love the idea. Okay, so wetalked about what needs to
happen. We need to get theglobal Her Act passed and
signed. How could our audienceget involved in this fight?
(30:03):
Like, how can they take actionto either help make people
aware of the global gag rule,but also to make it go away?
Speaker 3 (30:11):
Well, I love that you always end with a call to
action because it's easy tocomplain about all the problems
of the world. Um, but, youknow, we do have , um, the
ability to make a differenceand the totality of this agenda
is not inevitable and we haveto hold them accountable at
every stage. So, you know, asimple thing I think is just
(30:31):
speaking out about the policy,right? Like, don't let it go
quietly. I, I hate seeing toothose articles that were like,
oh, this is the DemocraticRepublican norm. This is just
what they do. Like it isunacceptable and I hate that a
policy like this has beennormalized as just like the
status quo that we accept andexpect, right? So don't let
(30:51):
them off the hook in that way.
Let's be loud, let's be clearabout what it is. I think the
media, well intention sometimesjust gets it wrong, right?
Conflates it with otherconfusing restrictions. So also
being really clear about whatit does, what it doesn't, and
that you don't want to seepoliticians playing politics
(31:12):
with people's health theirlives. And that holds true for
your own community, right? Forlocal domestic things, but it
also extends to what you wannasee the us showing up around
the world. I think that's areally powerful message to lift
up.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
I would plus one that I think that's really well
put, Kaitlyn . And you know, I, one thing that I would ask
for people to do is, you know,spread true information, battle
misinformation and don'tfurther stigmatize abortion in
doing so. So I've seen probablya little bit more hand wringing
(31:46):
about the potential , um,threats to or end of PEPFAR and
obviously pepfar. Superamazing, important program.
Don't want that to end. Don'twant , um, not sure what's
going on with this 90 day pauseand, you know, watching that
space very closely. But I amalso a little bit nervous about
(32:07):
like a false distinctionbetween GGR as like a quote
unquote , you know, abortionproblem. And then all of these
sort of other foreignassistance related eos as, as
sort of the global healthproblem. And I think that's
where we really need folks tokind of rise up and push back
and don't let any type ofabortion stigma stop you from
(32:31):
sharing the right informationand , and sharing your right
viewpoint about the global gagrole in and of itself being so
incredibly comprehensive and soincredibly harmful and deadly.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
I think the only thing I would add is like
making, making sure when you'retalking about it, even our
champions when they're talkingabout it, if you're gonna
repeat the, like the US doesn'tpay for abortion services being
clear that like, but that alsohas to change, right? We need
to get rid of the Helmsamendment. Yes. Like definitely
(33:04):
seeing some people who maybesit on committees that should
know better talking about ittoday , um, was a little
frustrating
Speaker 2 (33:11):
Here . Here . Yep .
Speaker 3 (33:13):
Room , room for improvement in so many spaces,
friends
Speaker 2 (33:16):
And enemies , , it's, it's so
refreshing to talk to you bothbecause it's like I have very
technical pet peeves that veryfew people can relate to
. Um , so thank you forletting, letting those be aired
out today in a safe space. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:31):
Let your inner wonk fly. .
Speaker 1 (33:34):
Exactly. Nice .
Well, Caitlin , Lori , thankyou so much for being here. I
had a wonderful time talking toyou about a terrible policy.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
Thanks Jenny , for the platform that you've
created. I truly appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
Yeah. Grateful for you. Always lifting up the
important things of the day.
Thanks Jenny . Oh ,
Speaker 1 (33:50):
Thanks. Okay, y'all, I hope you enjoyed my
conversation with Caitlin andLori . I had such a lovely time
talking to them about thisreally, really terrible policy.
Like I said, we are going to beworking to try and get somebody
to come on to talk about someof the anti-trans eos hopefully
next week, but it may not beuntil the week after. But we
are working to get people tocome on to talk about all the
(34:12):
things that are happening tomake sure that you are able to
stay up to date on what'shappening, but more
importantly, how you can getinvolved in the fight to fight
back.
Welcome to Repro Fight Back a podcast on all
things related to sexual andreproductive health rights and
justice. Hi re pros . How'severybody holding up? I'm your
host Jenny Wetter and mypronouns are she her. So y'all,
before we get to all of thechaos, let's do like a little
(00:25):
bit of housekeeping. It's beena while . Are you following us
on social media? Elena , ouramazing social media fellow has
been designing some amazing newgraphics. They have done
wonderful audiograms. You canget like little snippets from
the podcast episodes that youcan share on social. They have
just done an outstanding job.
So you should definitely befollowing us on all the social
(00:47):
media platforms. You can findus at re pros, fight back on
Facebook, Twitter, blue Sky,LinkedIn, or re Pros FB on
Instagram. Definitely worth afollow. Also, if you really
liked the podcast, it wouldreally help us out if you took
a moment to rate and review thepodcast on your favorite
(01:08):
podcast platform. Shared itwith friends you thought might
be interested in the podcast,all the things. And then if you
really love the podcast, didyou know that you can donate
and support the podcast? Wealso have wonderful swag you
can get for your donations fora $25 donation. You get these
really fun stickers that we haddesigned by Liberal Jane. I
(01:32):
love them. So you'll get all ofthose and a postcard they also
designed, or if you donate for$50, you'll get all of that
plus our wonderful bag thatsays abortion is a human right,
not a dirty word. I love thatbag. It's like, and comic book
font. It's really fun. Sohighly recommend. So if you
(01:54):
support us, make sure that youare following us on social,
that you rate and review us. Ifyou get a chance, tell your
friends about us. And if youwant, please donate. It helps
us keep the podcast going.
Okay, I guess that's enoughhousekeeping. And now we can
turn to just like all of thechaos y'all, this, this two
(02:14):
weeks has just been a whirlwindof chaos. There's just like no
better way to describe it.
Policies are flying fast andfurious that are gonna
devastate people's lives likeso hard to keep up on all the
things. It changes from hour tohour and it's so hard to keep
up. We are going to do our bestto make sure that we are doing
(02:39):
episodes on the ones that arerelevant to sexual reproductive
health and rights and as muchas we can, as soon as I can
find people to come and talkabout them . Right now we're
working on to find somebody tocome and talk about all of the
anti-trans executive actions.
There have been so many, it'sjust been a real onslaught of
attack on transgender rightsand it is just heartbreaking.
(03:02):
And to our trans friends, wesee you, we support you. We are
here in this fight with you. Wewill be talking about all of
those things in an episodecoming up soon. We're working
on it. Yeah. And that betweenthat and the 90 day pause on
(03:23):
all foreign assistance, y'all ,it is bad. It is cutting off
programs that are lifesavingfor so many people. Whether
it's global health programslike pepfar, which is an HIV
program, the family planningprogram, humanitarian
assistance or mind clearing,like all this foreign
(03:46):
assistance work that is savinglives around the world has been
paused. And that is justabsolutely devastating. Again,
this is another one of thosewhere it's just like kind of
chaotic and and changing fromtime to time. So, you know,
between now when I'm recordingit and when you're hearing it,
maybe that has changed some.
Again, it's one of thosepolicies that we'll try to have
(04:08):
somebody on the podcast in thenear future to talk about what
is going on, to understand whatthis policy is going to mean
for people's lives around theworld. It's just pretty
devastating. Yeah, there's justso much happening and executive
actions and executive ordersare flying fast and furious and
they're so many that are justgonna be devastating to so many
(04:29):
people in the US and around theworld. And it's just, I can't
keep up
the things I work on, it's hardto keep up. So I can't imagine
trying to keep up with the fullsuite and there's just so much
happening and we all need tomake sure that we are fighting
(04:52):
when we are able and tellingpeople about what is happening,
taking care of ourselves at thesame time, again, I know it
sounds so trite, but this isreally, it's gonna be a really
long marathon and so you needto step back when you need to
and not burn yourselves out.
And I, I am saying that just asmuch for myself who has a
(05:15):
really hard time not just goingall in and burning myself out
'cause I always feel like Ineed to do more, but it is
really important to take thosesteps back when you can. You
know, I've talked about as muchas I'm able and work to like
encouraging our repro team totake mental health days when
they need them so that they canrest and recharge. I'm trying
(05:36):
to be better about making surethat I'm taking them too, so
they know that it's okay. Soreally thinking about what you
can do for yourself andsupporting the people around
you is really important rightnow. Yeah, there's just so much
happening. I , I think withthat, let's go to this week's
episode 'cause I'm reallyexcited to talk to our two
(05:57):
wonderful guests about theglobal gag rule, which is one
of those policies that wasreinstated during the first
week of the Trumpadministration and , uh, have
two wonderful people on to talkabout it. Lori Edelman, who's
the executive director ofPlanned Planned Parenthood
Global and Kaitlyn Horgan withPlanned Parenthood Federation
of America. I'm really excitedto talk to the two of them
(06:20):
about what is happening and howyou can get involved. So with
that, let's go to my interviewwith Kaitlyn and Lori . Hi Lori
. Hi Kaitlyn . Thank you somuch for being here today.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Hi Jenny . So good to be here.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
Hi Jenny . Thanks for having us.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Always excited to have y'all on. Um, before we
get started, let's take a quicksecond and do introductions.
Um, and do you want to do likeyour name, pronouns, anything
else you wanna include? Um,Lori , would you like to go
first?
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Sure. So I'm Lori a and I use she , her and hers.
Uh, for my pronouns, I am theexecutive director of Planned
Parenthood Global. So we arethe international arm of PPFA ,
which folks probably , uh,already know and hopefully very
much love , um, or else theyreally deeply hate. Um, and
(07:10):
then in which case, you'reprobably not listening to this
podcast. Um, I also have abackground in feminist media.
So I have my own podcast calledCringe Watchers with another
SRHR Friend and champion, SRHRbeing Sexual and Reproductive
Health and Rights Advocacy. Um,and so Layla with my colleague
(07:31):
Leila Darby , um, which is verymuch aligned with the ethos of
this podcast. And I workclosely with Caitlyn , your
other guest today,
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Just to flag. It's called Cringe Watchers and
everybody should definitelycheck it out.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Thank you, Jenny .
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Okay, Caitlyn .
Speaker 3 (07:44):
Hi all. I'm Caitlyn Horrigan. I use she her
pronouns and I'm the seniorDirector of global advocacy at
Planned Parenthood Federationof America, PPFA for short. Uh,
and in that role I am anadvocate for the US government
to do everything they can inforeign policy and foreign
funding to advance sexual andreproductive health and rights
(08:04):
around the world. So I'mjoining you from the front
lines in Washington DC wherewe've had quite a tumultuous
few weeks.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Yeah, I think the important thing we need to do
at the start is like we arerecording this on Wednesday,
January 29th. It has been chaosfor like this first week and a
half and who knows what's gonnahappen between the time we
record and when y'all listen toit on Tuesday. So it just seems
really important to be like,it's Wednesday at like two 30,
(08:34):
so things can change betweennow and then. Okay. So the big
thing we have, I mean, again,so many things happen. There
are so many things we can talkabout. The slice of the pie
we're gonna tackle today is theglobal gag rule . And I think a
lot of our audience may befamiliar with it, but there may
be people who aren't asfamiliar. So it seems like a
(08:55):
good chance to be like, what isthe global gag rule?
Speaker 3 (08:58):
Sure. I can tackle that one. And I had the same
thought, Jenny . Sadly, most ofyour regular listeners probably
know this policy quite well ,um, because I know you've
talked about it here and that's'cause it's a policy that's
been kicking around for over 40years and has been enforced or
lifted every time there's achange in the US presidency.
(09:19):
Um, so we're here today talkingabout it because President
Trump just again, forces policyon the world which bans non-US
non-governmental organizationswho receive US global health
program funding from providingcounseling, referring or even
advocating for abortion intheir own country, using their
(09:42):
own private resources. Um, andso when we talk about this, you
know, we're talking aboutprograms that are meant to
expand access to contraception,to prevent and treat HIV to
combat malaria, to improvematernal and child health, huge
global challenges. And we'redisqualifying essential
organizations who know how todo this work and reach the
(10:03):
communities most at need. Ithink it's worth mentioning
that this version of the policythat we've seen reintroduced
just now with Trump's secondterm, same version we saw in
the first term, they radicallyexpanded this policy. So it's
always been bad to be clear,any version of a gag rule is
bad, but they have taken a badpolicy and made it so much
worse and really expanded theharms radically that we know
(10:26):
all too well.
explain it anymore, where it'sdead and gone.
,
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Right? Yeah, that's absolutely right. And Caitlyn ,
I'm always just , um, sograteful to hear you explain
this even though I've probablyheard you explain it over a
hundred times now , uh,
such a deep , uh, pool ofknowledge on this awful, awful
policy. And there's a couplethings that I just like to
(10:55):
reiterate to folks who are justlike, learning about this or
just to re reiterate for myselfbecause it makes me really mad.
Um, so one, this policy applieseven if you only take a dollar
of US funding. Um, and so youcould be wanting to use your
own budget , um, to work onabortion, let's say, and keep,
(11:18):
try to keep that separate fromthe US funding that is not
possible under this policy. Andfor me, what that means is this
policy is also incrediblyanti-democratic. Um, and it is
fundamentally restricting notonly of free speech , um, but
the autonomy of communitiesaround the world to make their
own informed decisions andactions , um, about their own
(11:43):
lives . And so that issomething that, that really
bothers me. And the other thingthat I, I think it's kind of so
important to understand is thatthere are already laws that
prevent federal po federalfunds from going towards
abortion. I do not agree withthose laws here , here . I
think those
(12:06):
let's say there's one of youout there who thinks, oh, well,
you know, we might as well notbe spending our federal dollars
on this. That's not what thispolicy is. Um, and so that's,
those are just two of themisconceptions that I, I do
hear going around about thepolicy and , and two things
that I think make it even thatmuch more egregious. But to
your point, Caitlyn , it's it'segregious enough. Yeah, I
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Think one of the things I think about a lot,
particularly around like howthe first round of the Trump
administration vastly expandedit, as Caitlyn said, it was
always bad, but following, whenTrump expanded it, it was after
eight years of the Obamaadministration doing work to
integrate health services. Soall of a sudden you have this
(12:47):
expansion when you started tosee clinics bring all their
services together. So, youknow, money that may be going
for, like Caitlyn said tomalaria, you had this clinic
that was now a one-stop shopwhere you could go and get any
of the care you needed wouldalso maybe get flagged by this.
So it, it just, it was soharmful and like, like we're
(13:09):
saying, it was harmful when itwas only family planning money,
but like the harm became somuch greater.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
Yeah, that's exactly right Jenny . And you don't
have to have traveled the worldto understand and appreciate
why integrated care is good forhealthcare and good for real
people's lives. Like we allbenefit when we can go to the
doctor and get multiple needsmet and trust that our
providers can give us realinformation to make decisions
about our own bodies andfuture. So, you know that
(13:37):
that's a good thing inhealthcare and it's a travesty
that this policy is trying tounwind that and make people run
all around town to get care andinformation. That should be a
basic human right.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Exactly. And we know of course, which people we're
talking about that are thehardest hit by that. So maybe
if you have a little moreflexibility in your work from
home at an office job, okay,you can make two different
stops to get your HIV and yourSRHR care. Um, but you're , if
you are someone who is already, um, living at the margins,
(14:10):
you're already facing multipleoverlapping barriers to care.
You are an adolescent, you'reliving in a rural area, you are
living with a low income,you're living with hiv aids,
that additional stop or that ,um, bifurcation of care is not
actually just a barrier. It canoften be a death sentence. And
(14:30):
that's, that's actually whatwe're talking about with this
policy.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Oh , that's like a great transition. 'cause I was
gonna , my next question wasgonna talk be let's talk about
the impacts. So what, what dowe, what have we seen from when
the global gag rule is inplace? And honestly, even when
it's not, it has trailingimpacts.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
You know, one of the things that I think, think is
so pernicious about this is theway that it weakens civil
society and really causes deepfissures in our movement , um,
between those who end upsigning and those who end up
not signing the gag rule evenwhere they may have otherwise
continued to be close alliesand partners and share mission
(15:10):
alignment. So, you know,planned Parenthood has
commission studies and we, wehave major findings on the gag
rules impact, and that's numberone, a weakened civil society
of course. Secondly, we see adeep disruption of health
service delivery and I'm, I'msure so many of our partners
around the world can talk aboutthat. And lastly, it's really
(15:32):
bolstering and emboldening toan anti-human rights agenda
worldwide. And we see achilling effect where , um,
unfortunately the message issent that this is the values of
the, of the American people andtherefore we, we tend to see
copycats, we tend to see , um,opposition leaders, you know,
(15:53):
taking this and, and runningwith it and using this to
further an anti rights and antihealth agenda. And so those are
sort of three areas that areunfortunately where we're
seeing deep impact.
Speaker 3 (16:03):
Yeah, and I'll just pick up and add, you know, I
think we started by namingthose who are most
disproportionately impacted andharmed by this policy. And I
know we're not gonna get intoall the other bad things that
the Trump administration hasdone already, but just to say,
right, this is not the onlyattack that they are
experiencing. There were somany , uh, harmful executive
(16:24):
orders aimed at those very samecommunities. So the compounding
impact and harm, right? It'snot just about the gag rule,
it's about all those ways thattheir health and dignity and
rights are being attacked bythis administration. You know,
I think Lori's exactly right,and I think many people of
course understand this as ananti-abortion policy, but maybe
underappreciate how much theharms hit so many other
(16:48):
services. And again, that's'cause of the point you brought
up Jenny , that care isintegrated. Providers aren't
just out there offering oneservice. So when clinics close
and there's lots of documentedexamples of where health
centers have had to close ornurses have been , uh, laid off
as a result of the policy,communities lose access to a
(17:08):
whole entry point for servicesand care contraception. Again,
HIV maternal and child health,like you , you name it, they're
losing it. And you know, itdoesn't take , uh, PhD
researcher to tell you thatwhen people lose access to
care, more people areexperiencing unintended
pregnancies. And in the areasof the world where the US is
(17:29):
working in, of course that'smeaning more unsafe abortion
and ultimately more peopledying. And, you know, we , we
talk about those servicedelivery impacts a lot. I , I
think what Lori brought up isso right, like it's just as
destructive and less understoodthe impact on, you know,
destroying coalitions who aretrying to work together to
tackle big challenges andreally stifling that local
(17:53):
advocacy effort, which seemslike it should be a core
American value. People shouldbe able to speak up and
participate in public policydebates happening in their own
country. But the gag activelyblocks healthcare providers
from doing just that. And theonly other thing I think that's
worth noting because, you know,we've been dealing with this
policy for 40 years, I thinkit's even worse now because
(18:13):
we've seen a really welcomeglobal trend where so many
countries are stepping forwardto liberalize access to
reproductive healthcare ,including abortion. The US
obviously a clear and notableoutlier in going backwards. But
now what the gag rule meanswhen it comes into place is
it's really holding people backfrom getting care that is
legally available in theircountry. And even information
(18:35):
about where they could accessthat care. So in some ways I
think that global gag rule asthe world makes progress and
expands and liberalize asaccess, the global gag role is
even worse 'cause it's holdingpeople back from that hard
fought for local gains. Yeah,
Speaker 1 (18:49):
I think the other thing I think about is how it
undermines trust in thehealthcare system. If you're
going to a provider and you arepregnant and don't want to be,
and you're asking them forinformation that they can't
give you, like that underminestrust in in the provider, you
may not go back and it's hardto like, okay then the policy
(19:09):
ends that doesn't magicallybring the people back to the
healthcare system. The clinicsdon't immediately reopen. Like,
I I just find the harms justkind of continue to ripple out.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Yeah. Um, we know this in the us um, and we know
this globally, it is deeplyunpopular, confusing , uh, and
unhelpful for politicians to beinterfering with personal
healthcare decisions. You donot want politics in that room
with you. It does erode trust.
(19:42):
Imagine, you know, trying toroll out a vaccine delivery
program. And this is somethingthat has eroded trust in the
community or is underminingclarity about who can provide
what services and when. Um,that's just really
unacceptable. And we see , uh,for an administration that, you
know, claims to be focused somuch on efficiency, that this
(20:05):
policy creates new financialand operational challenges for
both complying and nonlyingorganizations. Um, and
especially has , uh, a veryconfusing effect on not only ,
uh, civilian populations, buton people who are, you know,
very well versed and trained tounderstand these things. It's
(20:27):
still very , uh, unclear howthey should be implementing
this and why. So we tend to seean over implementation or a lot
of misinformation that is alsogonna be undermining long-term
trust and , and you know, thestrengthening of the overall
healthcare system.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
Yeah. And thinking about that trust , um, message,
Lori and , and Jenny that youboth mentioned, I think that's
spot on. And it also reallyundercuts one of the messages
that I always hear fromRepublican administrations who
say, well, the global gag ruledoesn't really shift, doesn't
reduce our funding, right?
We're just shifting to adifferent partner. The idea
(21:04):
that that trust transfers to adifferent partner at the
community level, I think is sowrong. And I think it's
especially true when you thinkabout the special care , um,
and services that young peopleneed or that LGBT communities
need. You know, they're notjust gonna pick up and show up
(21:24):
for healthcare , um, you know,wherever the US government
tells them to, simply becausethey've decided to upend the
partnership. You know, peopleare gonna lose services. So ,
um, I think that that trustmessage is, is so key and
underappreciated. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
I it's so frustrating to be back in this
position again where we knowpeople are going to suffer and,
and not be able to access thecare they need. And yeah, it ,
it , it just feels like , uh,helpless to do things to fix
it, which is so frustrating'cause we spend so much of our
(22:01):
time trying to end this policyand make sure it doesn't come
back. So what do we need to doto ensure that we can like, get
rid of it once and for all?
Speaker 3 (22:09):
Well, there are a lot of things that we can do. I
mean, one tangible thing I'llflag is that there is actually
a piece of legislation that wasimmediately reintroduced after
Trump instated the policy thatwould permanently end the
global gag rule and really takethat power away from the
president to turn on a dime andupends global programs around
(22:31):
the world. So that's the GlobalHealth Empowerment and Rights
Act. We shorthand call it theGlobal Her Act 'cause we love
an acronym in this space , butit was just reintroduced in the
House and Senate and PPFA andso many partners who work
across health, human rights,gender equality issues, are
really proud to support thatlegislation. And it's really
(22:52):
linked to our core belief thatpoliticians should not be
interfering with personalhealthcare decisions, whether
in the US or around the world.
And I think it's worth notingthat it's also in line with
what we know the Americanpeople want. Um, we did polling
last year that found that theglobal gag rule is really
deeply unpopular withAmericans. I mean, truly across
(23:14):
every demographic. And peoplehad really deep serious
concerns about the harmfulimpacts of the policy,
especially on worseninghealthcare . And I think it's
personal now for Americans in away that perhaps it wasn't
always before. You know , uh,with two years living without
the right to abortion post-opspeople get what this means,
what abortion restrictions andlosing access to care means.
(23:39):
And we saw an extension of thatempathy when they were looking
at a policy like the global gagrule . And that's why you see
strong majorities of Americanswanting to end the policy for
good, which, you know,hopefully someday will happen
and we can stop working on itand we can talk about something
else on the podcast,
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Wouldn't that be nice? Uh, I Iwas just like thinking, you
know, and you talk about howdeeply unpopular it is with all
of the chaos of this last weekand a half at this point, and
it coming out late Friday, likewe were not in theory working
(24:18):
anymore. It got lost in, inlike all of the chaos and like
try as all of us might to pushto make sure that people were
aware of it. It was one ofthose things that felt like it
really got lost in the shufflebetween all of the million of
other crisis chaos points therewere , um, last week.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Yeah, I think that's true. And I, I think, you know,
the fact that I believe Trumpsigned this on a plane this
time around at the same timethat he also was, you know,
about to land in California and, um, signed a bunch of other
messed up things, to yourpoint, Jenny , on that same
(25:01):
plane ride as well. Um, but Iwish I could say that I think
that's the only reason thisdidn't get a lot of attention,
weary and true and , uh, youknow, battle tested in this
work, but , um, you know, Ithink I've lived through this
before and I can't say that theliteracy among Americans on
(25:26):
this work is where it, it couldbe, right? And I wish we could
have taken an advantage earlieron to of , of prior
opportunities to , um, makethis a little bit harder to do.
But I just don't know thatthere's as much engagement as
there could and should be. Um ,but maybe now is the moment
because again, if you'resomeone who, you know, believes
(25:49):
in child health, if you'resomeone who believes in HIV
prevention, you know, if you'resomeone who believes in
humanitarian support , um, youknow, this, this is a policy
to, to be paying attention to.
And I do think with COVID-19,we, we also were reminded and
um, and uh , deeply connectedto how all of our fates are
(26:11):
linked and tied . And , uh, Ithink this, this move has made
all of us less safe, moresusceptible to illness, all
kinds of illness and , uh,preventable ones at that. And
so that's something that I hope, um, if we can even appeal to
people's understandableself-interest. This is a policy
(26:31):
that I think could come intosharp relief in this moment for
that reason. Yeah,
Speaker 1 (26:36):
I, I'm holding out hope. It's one of those like
foreign assistance not gettingas much attention in general,
so it makes sense , um, even ifit shouldn't , um, that it,
that it kind of flies under theradar. So now we've talked
about how we should , could getrid of the policy and you know,
(26:57):
I, I like to think that that'snot enough. So, so what else
should we be doing? Well,
Speaker 2 (27:04):
I don't know about you all, but the past few weeks
it's been a little bit hard tolike step back and dream. Um,
I've been really mired in theday-to-day work of responding
and reacting to a slew of awful, um, updates and actions. But
at some point I really feellike it's important for our
(27:28):
movement, and I use that wordvery broadly and with a big
tent approach to really imaginewhat a resilience could look
like and do some futureproofing that like, takes into
account the most evilpossibilities that could, could
happen to us. And really thinkabout getting innovative and
getting ruthless in how westructure our work and how we
(27:52):
think about being able to scaleup and scale back really, you
know, quickly or to moveresources where they need to be
moved in , in new andinnovative ways. So that's just
a conversation that I'm gonnaput out there and invite folks
to join. Uh , 'cause I think weneed new voices. We need, you
(28:13):
know, really we need folks witha lot of experience. We need
folks who are brand new tothese conversations to , um,
all really come to this workand, and be excited to, to
think boldly together and , um,take some risks together.
'cause I think that's alsogonna be important for pushing
back. And so I know at PlannedParenthood we're also having
(28:34):
those conversations, not thisweek
are having those conversationsand I'm, I'm excited to kind of
be able to share more aboutthat in the future in a way
that isn't reacting moment tomoment , but is is really about
thinking super long term andhaving that our own 30 year
agenda that's gonna knocksomeone else's, you know, kind
(28:57):
of socks off.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
Ugh . I love that.
Like, I, we spend, so we haveto focus on like the details
and like where the next attackis coming from, whether that's
global gag rule or worryingabout what are , what's gonna
happen to the gender programsor things like that. Worrying
about like seeing anti-transstuff really expand in the
(29:19):
global space. And it's so easyto get caught up in like
protecting the ground wealready have and like fighting
tooth and nail for astandstill, which is so hard to
be inspired by at times thatit's so exciting to like, think
about the dreaming big and likeplanning for like a much more
(29:42):
positive vision of like 30years from now. But it, it's so
easy to get caught up in likethe next thing that's on fire
or trying to make sure thateverything doesn't burn down at
the same time. Um, that it canbe hard to dream big. But I
love the idea. Okay, so wetalked about what needs to
happen. We need to get theglobal Her Act passed and
signed. How could our audienceget involved in this fight?
(30:03):
Like, how can they take actionto either help make people
aware of the global gag rule,but also to make it go away?
Speaker 3 (30:11):
Well, I love that you always end with a call to
action because it's easy tocomplain about all the problems
of the world. Um, but, youknow, we do have , um, the
ability to make a differenceand the totality of this agenda
is not inevitable and we haveto hold them accountable at
every stage. So, you know, asimple thing I think is just
(30:31):
speaking out about the policy,right? Like, don't let it go
quietly. I, I hate seeing toothose articles that were like,
oh, this is the DemocraticRepublican norm. This is just
what they do. Like it isunacceptable and I hate that a
policy like this has beennormalized as just like the
status quo that we accept andexpect, right? So don't let
(30:51):
them off the hook in that way.
Let's be loud, let's be clearabout what it is. I think the
media, well intention sometimesjust gets it wrong, right?
Conflates it with otherconfusing restrictions. So also
being really clear about whatit does, what it doesn't, and
that you don't want to seepoliticians playing politics
(31:12):
with people's health theirlives. And that holds true for
your own community, right? Forlocal domestic things, but it
also extends to what you wannasee the us showing up around
the world. I think that's areally powerful message to lift
up.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
I would plus one that I think that's really well
put, Kaitlyn . And you know, I, one thing that I would ask
for people to do is, you know,spread true information, battle
misinformation and don'tfurther stigmatize abortion in
doing so. So I've seen probablya little bit more hand wringing
(31:46):
about the potential , um,threats to or end of PEPFAR and
obviously pepfar. Superamazing, important program.
Don't want that to end. Don'twant , um, not sure what's
going on with this 90 day pauseand, you know, watching that
space very closely. But I amalso a little bit nervous about
(32:07):
like a false distinctionbetween GGR as like a quote
unquote , you know, abortionproblem. And then all of these
sort of other foreignassistance related eos as, as
sort of the global healthproblem. And I think that's
where we really need folks tokind of rise up and push back
and don't let any type ofabortion stigma stop you from
(32:31):
sharing the right informationand , and sharing your right
viewpoint about the global gagrole in and of itself being so
incredibly comprehensive and soincredibly harmful and deadly.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
I think the only thing I would add is like
making, making sure when you'retalking about it, even our
champions when they're talkingabout it, if you're gonna
repeat the, like the US doesn'tpay for abortion services being
clear that like, but that alsohas to change, right? We need
to get rid of the Helmsamendment. Yes. Like definitely
(33:04):
seeing some people who maybesit on committees that should
know better talking about ittoday , um, was a little
frustrating
Speaker 2 (33:11):
Here . Here . Yep .
Speaker 3 (33:13):
Room , room for improvement in so many spaces,
friends
Speaker 2 (33:16):
And enemies ,
refreshing to talk to you bothbecause it's like I have very
technical pet peeves that veryfew people can relate to
out today in a safe space. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:31):
Let your inner wonk fly.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
Exactly. Nice .
Well, Caitlin , Lori , thankyou so much for being here. I
had a wonderful time talking toyou about a terrible policy.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
Thanks Jenny , for the platform that you've
created. I truly appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
Yeah. Grateful for you. Always lifting up the
important things of the day.
Thanks Jenny . Oh ,
Speaker 1 (33:50):
Thanks. Okay, y'all, I hope you enjoyed my
conversation with Caitlin andLori . I had such a lovely time
talking to them about thisreally, really terrible policy.
Like I said, we are going to beworking to try and get somebody
to come on to talk about someof the anti-trans eos hopefully
next week, but it may not beuntil the week after. But we
are working to get people tocome on to talk about all the
(34:12):
things that are happening tomake sure that you are able to
stay up to date on what'shappening, but more
importantly, how you can getinvolved in the fight to fight
back.
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