June 17, 2025 • 44 mins
2/3 of Massachusetts voters support expanding access to abortion later in pregnancy, according to recent polling. Massachusetts still has on the books a 24-week abortion ban, with additional exceptions later added. Jeanette Kincaid, Associate Director of Care Coordination at DuPont Clinic and Kate Dineen, abortion later in pregnancy patient and advocate and Board Member of Reproductive Equity Now, sit down to talk with us about Massachusetts’ abortion access status and the reality of exceptions.
When Kate, located at the time in Massachusetts, had a personal experience needing access to an abortion later in pregnancy, she was told travel would be necessary to obtain care. Kate then traveled to the Washington, D.C. area to receive the care she needed. Currently in the Massachusetts, Kate and other advocates are working to pass the Prioritizing Patient Access to Care Act, which would expand access to abortion care after 24 weeks of pregnancy based on the best professional judgement of a licensed physician. Getting rid of the state’s gestational ban would increase access to care and equity not only for Massachusetts, but for the Northeast region.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jennie (00:03):
Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, a podcast on all things
related to sexual andreproductive health, rights, and
justice.
Hi, rePROs.
How's everybody doing?
I'm your host, Jennie Wetter,and my pronouns are she/her.
So y'all, it is officiallysweaty, sticky season in D.C.
(00:23):
And I am not a fan.
I'm especially not a fanbecause when I record the
podcast, I have to close all mywindows so you don't hear
anything that's happeningoutside.
And I have to turn off my AC sothat you can't hear the fan
running if it runs off.
And that means I just sit hereand roast.
There's a sunlight, well,depending on the time of day,
(00:46):
but today when I was recording,there was like sunlight directly
where I was sitting.
So it was just like slowlygetting hotter and hotter as we
were having this conversationand it was making it a little
hard to focus, but that's okay.
It was still a greatconversation.
Don't worry, y'all.
I made sure that we had a goodconversation, but yeah, not a
fan.
And adding on top of that, asit has gotten warm, for some
(01:07):
reason, all of a Like, hey, Ineed to snuggle with your arm
while you're working.
And I know you're hot andsticky and gross, but I'm just
going to lay my entire kittybody all down the length of your
arm and use your hand for apillow.
Thanks.
So not a fan.
She's lucky.
(01:28):
She's cute.
But yeah, I don't need kittysnuggles while I'm working and
while I'm hot.
Like, thanks, Luna.
Otherwise, I feel like there'sjust so much happening and so
many terrible things to keeptrack of, whether that is the
reconciliation bill or this newrescissions package, which is
(01:52):
looking to claw back a bunch ofmoney from foreign assistance,
particularly from global healthand public broadcasting and.
Yeah, just a lot.
And there is the what ishappening in Los Angeles.
There are many ICE raids thathave been feel like they've been
going on for forever.
(02:13):
And there's just so manyterrible things.
And I'm recording this onWednesday, June 11th.
So before that.
the big military parade in DCthis weekend.
Uh, so the got that to lookforward to.
And by that, I mean, I amstaying in my condo all day and
(02:34):
not going outside.
I don't want anything to dowith it.
I don't want to be near it.
I don't want to deal with it.
I'm sure I'll hear all of thehelicopters and if there's
planes and stuff flying overoverhead, but yeah, I just, I
don't want anything to do withany of it.
And, um, There's just, I feellike it's back to that time
(02:56):
where I've been trying to bereally good about not being on
social media a lot to not getcaught up in what the new latest
outrage is.
But there are so many likelegit, terrible things happening
that it's hard to keep up andit's overwhelming.
And I know that's the point,right?
Is to have so many thingshappening that you can't focus
(03:16):
on any one of them and it makesit harder to push back.
The point is to overwhelm us.
And unfortunately for me, I themoment it seems to be working
like I'm losing my outragecapacity at the moment like I
still have like that flash likeright when it happens but I
can't stay focused on it becausethere's like the new outrage
like 10 minutes later so I'mtrying to find my peace again so
(03:41):
that way I can more effectivelyfight back in the many ways
that I try to fight back so I'mYeah, I'm just feeling a little
overwhelmed right now by all ofthe things.
And like I said, there's justso much happening that it is
making it hard to focus on anyone of them.
Yeah, sorry to be a little bitof a bummer today, y'all.
(04:03):
Let's go back to kitties,right?
Let's go back to luna decidingit is okay to need to snuggle
with my arm when it is 90degrees and I am hot and gross.
Okay, actually, let's just turnto this week's interview.
I feel like there's a lot goingon and i could talk about any
number of them but again mybrain is like scattered and
(04:26):
having a hard time focusing onany one of the terribles so
let's just talk about about thisweek's episode instead.
I'm excited.
This is the next in our serieson abortion later in pregnancy.
I am so very grateful toPatient Forward for helping me
put this series together, inparticular, Bonyen, who has been
so helpful in helping meoutline the series and find
(04:48):
guests and really helping putthis all together.
I am very excited for thiswhole series.
If you haven't heard the firsttwo episodes, we'll make sure to
link them in our show notes sothat way you can listen to all
parts of it because I think it'sa really important conversation
and today we're going to talkabout again abortions later in
pregnancy but we're also goingto be talking about an effort in
(05:11):
Massachusetts to try and repealtheir state's gestational ban
and joining me I am very excitedto have Kate Dineen a patient
advocate and a reproductiveequity now board member in
Massachusetts who's working torepeal that viability ban and
Jeanette Kincaid who's theassociate director of care
(05:31):
coordination at the DuPontClinic.
I am really excited for ourconversation.
So let's go to my interviewwith Jeanette and Kate.
Hi, Kate and Jeanette.
Thank you so much for beinghere today.
Hello.
Hi, thanks for having us.
So before we get into ourconversation, why don't I have
you all introduce yourselves?
Jeanette, would you like to gofirst?
Jeanette (05:52):
Yeah, absolutely.
My name is Jeanette Kincaid.
I use she/ her pronouns, and Iam the Associate Director of
Care Coordination at DuPontClinic in Washington, D.C.
DuPont Clinic is one of a fewall-trimester abortion clinics
in the country, and we seepatients from Massachusetts as
well as from all over the UnitedStates and all over the world.
Jennie (06:14):
Kate, do you want to go?
Kate (06:15):
Hi, my name is Kate Deneen, and I am a later
abortion patient and advocate,and I am based in Boston,
Massachusetts.
I'm also a board member of anorganization called Reproductive
Equity Now, and we work at thestate level in Massachusetts,
Connecticut, and New Hampshirewith a focus on expanding access
(06:36):
to abortion carethroughout pregnancy.
I'm so excited to have both of you on. This is gonna be our third episode in a six-part series on abortion later in pregnancy.
And I’m excited ‘cause this is a little bit of a good-news episode, which is fun. I feel like I don’t get to do those a ton, to hear about some new fights that are happening. So, but before we get there, Kate, let’s hear about how you got involved in this work. I think it’s always helpful to hear people’s personal stories for people to understand what’s at stake when we’re talking about abortion later in pregnancy.
(07:12):
Great, well, thank you so much for creating this space.
So, I got involved in thismovement in a very personal way.
So back in July of 2021, I wasabout 32 weeks into a pregnancy,
meticulously planned and deeplywanted pregnancy, when I went
(07:32):
in for what I thought was aroutine ultrasound.
And the ultrasound techdetected something called
ventriculomegaly in my sonTeddy's brain.
And that led to a whole seriesof, you know, completely
devastating and unexpected nextsteps.
I had a fetal MRI right afterthat ultrasound.
(07:57):
And The MRI detected that myson had suffered a catastrophic
stroke in utero.
And he would either die inutero or survive with a spectrum
of potentially devastatingoutcomes.
The pediatric neurologistcouldn't fully explain what
(08:20):
those outcomes would be.
So , it's often described as agray diagnosis, but the
prognosis for me and my husbandwas so devastating that I
immediately asked, what are myoptions?
And I was standing in mykitchen in Boston on a Zoom
because this was during thepandemic, and I will never
(08:42):
forget the response.
I was told, you may still beable to explore termination if
you're able to travel.
So in that moment, I was justso shocked and confused.
You know, obviously stillprocessing the very unexpected
and devastating fetal diagnosis.
But I thought to myself, travelwhere?
(09:02):
I live in Boston, which upuntil then I had thought to be
this bastion of reproductivejustice.
I've always been verypro-choice and supportive of the
statutory framework that wouldallow access to abortion care.
So I thought I understood whatour state law was and the kind
of care that someone in asituation like mine might be
(09:24):
able to access.
So, you know, just Florida on apersonal level, but also on a
policy level.
And I talked to my providersand
they were very supportive of the decision that I very quickly made, really without much hesitation. But they couldn’t help me. They explained very empathetically that their hands were tied by our state law, but they would help me get care out of state. Interestingly enough, they found me an appointment at the Dupont clinic in D.C. and it was several days out. And I was so anxious to secure this vital care thatI found myself an appointment
(10:05):
just a few days earlier atanother clinic in the Metro DC
area called the Care Clinic,where I got incredibly
compassionate care from the lateDr.
Leroy Carhart.
And so it was just anincredibly disorienting and
raging process to learn thatyour child had been consigned to
(10:27):
either death or a fate farworse than death, in my opinion,
and then to be turned awayby your doctors and told that, “We can’t help you. Even though we want to help you, we can’t help you. You’re going to have to travel.” So, I was in the best possible position to seek care out of state: I have a wonderful partner; we have family nearby; we were able to leave our toddler with family; we have a car; we have access to savings. And we dropped everything and drove 500 miles from Boston to Bethesda, Maryland to obtain that abortion care that my own doctors in one of the leading hospitals
in the country, if not theworld, could not provide me
(11:06):
because of the constraints ofour state law.
And I learned a lot about thedecision-making process along
the way.
My hospital, after the fact,told me that they had a panel in
place to determine whichterminations after 24 weeks
could be performed in-house.
And despite the fact that myson's diagnosis was dismal and
(11:27):
likely fatal, it did not meetthe hospital's definition of a,
quote, lethal fetal anomaly,which...
amounts to a staggeringly shortlist of qualifying diagnoses.
And at the end of the day, I amimmensely grateful for the
diagnostic care that I receivedin Boston and for the
compassionate abortion care Ireceived out of state in
(11:49):
Maryland.
And I'm just incrediblyfortunate that I had the
financial resources and thesupport system to travel out of
state to pay upwards of $10,000out of pocket for medical
expenses and travel costs.
And many other patients simplydon't have So when I came back
from D.C., I started to share mystory publicly here in Boston.
(12:13):
I started to work withorganizations like Reproductive
Equity Now and lawmakers whowere really surprised that
patients were still being deniedcare in Massachusetts.
I kind of got this overwhelmingresponse of like, whoa, we
thought we fixed this in 2020with the Roe Act on the state
level, which was really designedto codify Roe in the state
(12:35):
context.
But we all learn together thata ban with exceptions often just
functions as a ban.
And in 2022, after the Dobbsleak, I had the opportunity to
work with advocates andlawmakers here in Massachusetts
(12:56):
to revisit the statutorylanguage of the Roe Act and to
try and clarify some of thatexceptions framework.
It was clear to me at the timethat we didn't have a real shot
at doing away with thegestational ban altogether.
So, we were really forced tokind of tinker around the
margins and expand theexceptions framework.
(13:17):
and ended up with somecompromise language that does
represent important progresstoward realizing a future
without forced travel or forcedbirth.
And I'm really grateful for theleadership of the House and the
Senate in Massachusetts to tryand make some clarifying changes
to our state law in 2022.
(13:39):
We still have, fast forward to2025, we still have a 24-week
ban on the books, now with moreexpansive exceptions.
So in addition to the lethalfetal anomaly provision that my
son's case did not qualify for,there is now a grave fetal
(13:59):
diagnosis provision.
And we do know that is allowingcertain patients to receive
care in state who would havepreviously been forced to
travel.
However, we know that patientsare still being denied care and
forced to attempt to travel outof state.
Now, during, of course, a timeof a lot of legal uncertainty, a
(14:21):
time of scarce resources whereour abortion funds that often
provide resources for folkstraveling out of state are
strained, where incredibleall-trimester clinics like the
DuPont clinic have constraintsand, you know, obviously limited
openings.
And what we're trying to do nowhere in Massachusetts is to
(14:45):
revisit our state law again andto try and do away with that
24-week gestational banaltogether so that we can untie
the hands of our world-classmedical providers here in
Massachusetts and allow them toprovide the compassionate care
to their patients that by andlarge they want to provide so
(15:08):
that patients are able to getcare in state.
They're not forced to attemptto travel, which we know many
people just cannot travel formany reasons.
And you know, from myperspective as a later abortion
patient who was forced totravel, I think that we in
Massachusetts have a real moralimperative right now to expand
access to abortion carethroughout pregnancy and stop
(15:32):
straining this very fragilenetwork of abortion funds and
this vital network of alltrimester clinics and really
commit to being a bastion forreproductive justice and commit
to changing our state law sothat the decision around moving
forward with a pregnancy is onebetween the patient and their
(15:55):
provider.
Jennie (15:56):
Kate, thank you so much for sharing your story.
I really appreciate you doingthat.
And I think Kate's story reallyillustrates the limitations of
exceptions.
And Jeanette, maybe you cantalk a little bit about
exceptions and why they're justlike not enough.
Jeanette (16:14):
Absolutely.
So first of all, overall, theidea of exceptions to
gestational age limits doesperpetuate this anti-abortion
argument that some individualsare more deserving of abortion
care than others.
We also see exceptions that arevaguely worded.
kind of like Kate was saying,they're not incredibly clear
(16:36):
even when you do have theopportunity to go back and add
to these exceptions or reworkthese exceptions.
The wording of exceptions maycreate confusion among providers
and patients who are concernedabout violating the law, which
does have a chilling effect onpatients' ability to seek
abortions as well as providers'ability to to provide abortion
(17:00):
care to these patients.
We see patients who come fromout of state, including
Massachusetts, who areterminating a pregnancy and they
did not qualify for anexception or were not able to
get an exception.
And we can see that in someways, the decision-making as to
(17:22):
who is able to get an exceptioncan be subjective, again, just
due to this vaguely wordedstatutory language.
Abortion seekers may think thatthey do need to carry a
pregnancy to term because theydon't know that they have any
options.
They may have a provider who isnot able to give them those
(17:43):
options or not willing to givethem those options, which is
something that we do see,unfortunately.
Another factor is thatexceptions cause delays to care.
Applying for and being grantedan exception can take time.
It can take weeks.
And at that point, thepregnancy is further along.
Patients are at a highergestational age by the time they
(18:05):
are able to get a procedure,even if they are granted an
exception.
And one of the things that wedo see is the potential for
increased risk for patients witha complex medical history if
they are at a higher gestationalage.
Like Kate was saying, there areabortion seekers who are forced
to travel out of state for carebecause they are not granted
(18:27):
these exceptions.
We see an increased procedurecost as a patient is further
along in their pregnancy, aswell as increased logistical
barriers.
So procedures can be anywherefrom one to four days, depending
on the clinic and depending ongestational age.
Logistically, this means that apatient who is seeking an
(18:50):
abortion needs to find childcarefor multiple days.
They need to take off from workfor multiple days or take time
off from school for multipledays.
And this can have a seriouseffect on their life.
They may have to deal with lostwages.
They may have to reach out tofamily or friends who are
unsupportive for childcare.
(19:11):
And in that, we see a lot ofinequity and disparity in
access.
Exceptions disproportionately,overwhelmingly affect
marginalized communities who mayalready have limited access to
healthcare.
And they contribute topreexisting healthcare
inequities because abortion careis healthcare and individuals
(19:33):
have a right to seek that carewithout worrying about
gestational age limits or havingto apply for an exception and
having to speak with a panel ofdoctors or a single doctor who
makes the decision as to whetheror not that pregnancy is
harmful to their physical ormental health, whether a fetal
anomaly is grave enough towarrant an abortion over 24
(19:57):
weeks in gestation, whether thefetal anomaly is lethal.
We see a lot of exceptions inred states, but they can happen
in blue states likeMassachusetts as well.
The goal is to, like Kate isdoing, like people Kate is
working with are doing, the goalis to improve access, increase
(20:19):
access for patients all over thestate and for patients in
neighboring states who may wantto travel to Massachusetts for
abortion care.
Jennie (20:26):
I really love that you called out what this is all
about is the perpetuation ofthat there are good abortions
and bad abortions and not justthat this is healthcare that
people need access to because Ithink it is just so important
that people kind of shift theirmindset because I think
sometimes they hear gestationalbans and they don't think
(20:48):
through all of the reasonspeople may need an abortion
later in pregnancy.
They don't think about being inthat position and needing
access to the health care andnot being able to get it until
they are in that position.
Okay, Kate, do you want to tellus a little bit about the
campaign that is going on inMassachusetts right now to try
(21:09):
and get rid of their gestationalban?
Kate (21:10):
I would love to.
And I'm just so grateful to bespeaking with you both and
appreciate the perspective.
of the DuPont Clinic andJeanette's leadership.
It is just so amazing to hear,Jeanette, you speak about the
issue.
And every day you're showing upfor patients who've been denied
(21:32):
care all over the country.
And I just really reflect uponthe fact that I am one of the
lucky ones.
I had the resources andwherewithal to travel and to
seek care out of state.
And the alternative for me wasone of just frankly, government
(21:53):
mandated forced birth, right, inMassachusetts, really, really
plainly stated.
And so, you know, I justcontinue to think about the
patients who may not be able toto travel may not know what
options exist for them.
So just thank you for all thatyou're doing to make people
aware that there are stilloptions out there for them,
(22:13):
regardless of where they live.
So just thank you.
But I would be delighted totalk more about what we're doing
right now in Massachusetts totry and expand access to care
throughout pregnancy.
So working in partnership withsome leaders in both the State
Senate and the House, we areadvocating for a piece of
legislation called called theprioritizing patient access to
(22:36):
care act that is being sponsoredby state senator robin kennedy
and state reps christine barberand lindsey sabadosa here in
massachusetts they are allchampions true champions for
reproductive justice and youreally understand what's at
stake if we are not able to act,and we really just maintain the
(22:59):
status quo.
So what this bill would do isto expand access after 24 weeks
of pregnancy when in the bestprofessional judgment of a
licensed physician.
And this bill is looselymodeled after legislation that
passed in Maine just in 2023,which is kind of an interesting
model and an interesting testcase politically in terms of red
(23:23):
states, blue states, and purplestates.
Really, Maine was able to tomake some substantial progress
back in 2023 and I think we wantto kind of learn from that as a
state and really upend thecurrent status quo which of
course is a ban with now moreexpansive exceptions and the
intent is really simple.
(23:44):
The goal is to enable doctorsto give their patients the best
medical care possible withoutgovernment interference and I
often think that when we talkabout you know good abortions
versus bad abortions or numberof weeks of gestation or the
specifics of qualifyingdiagnoses we really over
(24:06):
complicate the issue it's reallyabout who decides is it the
government?
Is it a politician or is it thepatient and their healthcare
provider?
And so our goal here is reallyto remove politics from the exam
room.
And at no point in pregnancy isa politician who writes a law
more qualified to make decisionsabout abortion than a patient
(24:27):
and their doctor.
So it's really that simple,just framing it as a healthcare
decision that should be guidedby medicine and science and not
by political opinion or reallyarbitrary statutes and arbitrary
viability or gestationalcutoffs.
And we really just firmlybelieve that no patient should
have to leave Massachusetts forcare.
(24:48):
And we know that that is stillhappening with some degree of
regularity.
I am personally aware ofseveral cases just in the past
month or so, having connectedwith patients who went through
very similar experiences that Idid.
And just knowing that they havelived through the same trauma
that I have is reallyheartbreaking and it's also
(25:09):
really profoundly motivating totry and change the way that our
state law is structured here inMassachusetts.
There are some encouragingtrends in public opinion
polling, including polls thathave been conducted here
recently in Massachusetts.
You know, what we're seeing isthat expanding access to
(25:31):
abortion is popular.
Massachusetts residents arereally demanding that our
Commonwealth continue to be abeacon for care.
And especially as now we havewith Trump in office and
tremendous amount of uncertaintyabout what's happening at the
federal level.
So according to some recentpolling conducted by Reaper
Productive Equity Now'sfoundation and EMC research, two
(25:56):
out of three Massachusettsvoters support expanding access
to abortion later in pregnancybased on the professional
judgment of a physician.
So those are really encouragingpolling results.
Again, we don't think policyshould be directly influenced by
public opinion.
However, that public opiniontrajectory is really encouraging
(26:17):
that people are are starting tounderstand that it's really not
about number of weeks.
It's not about specific fetaldiagnosis or specific life
circumstance to sort out whatabortions are good or bad.
It's about who decides, thepatient or the politician.
(26:39):
And I think Americans acrossthe country, not just here in
Massachusetts, are becomingincreasingly wary of government
interference.
And our hope here is that wecan really leverage that to make
some smart, common sensechanges to our own state law
here.
And, you know, in doing that,we're trying to sort through
(27:00):
some of the stigma and some ofthe misinformation that's out
there.
We are trying to reinforce thatabortion later in pregnancy is
not done for convenience.
I think that is a commontalking point of the antis.
And we even saw that trottedout on the presidential debate
stage when we have politicianstalking about so-called
(27:21):
late-term abortion or so-calledpartial birth abortion or
infanticide.
The reality is abortions laterin pregnancy are not done for
convenience.
They're serious medicalprocedures, in my case, often
necessary due to unexpectedcomplications.
But also due to changing lifecircumstances, right?
So it's not just about storieslike mine where it was a
(27:46):
devastating fetal diagnosisidentified later in pregnancy.
There are a variety of reasonswhy someone may need to or want
to pursue an abortion later inpregnancy.
And I would argue that thosereasons are all deeply personal,
not the government's business,and they're all valid.
So...
(28:06):
Our hope is to expand access tocare throughout pregnancy and
really ensure that patients anddoctors Who are the ones
carefully considering thesedecisions can prioritize health,
safety, and really lead withcompassion for patients who are
grappling with reallychallenging circumstances across
the board.
(28:26):
So something that you saidearlier really resonated with me
around good versus badabortions.
And for me, as a later abortionpatient, when I tell my story,
I really wrestle with thatbecause I find that most people
(28:47):
hear a story like mine, a sadstory of a mom trying to have
another baby and really beingconfronted with this unexpected,
devastating fetal diagnosis.
I think my story is often metby a tremendous amount of
empathy.
And people say, oh, yes, well,your case is sad enough you
(29:09):
should have been able to qualifyfor an exception but that's not
what this is all about rightit's not about carving out more
exceptions it's not abouttinkering around the edges of
statutory language it's reallyabout protecting healthcare
decisions and keepingpoliticians out of our exam
rooms and allowing patients andproviders to make informed
(29:32):
decisions together withoutgovernment interference.
And so that stigma is very muchstill with us, even, I think,
in the pro-choice movement.
And so it's something, youknow, as a storyteller who has
an arguably sad story, I thinkit's really important for people
like me to affirm that youshouldn't need a sad story to be
able to access abortion laterin pregnancy.
Jennie (29:54):
Yeah, I all I could think of as you were talking is
had Dr.
Diane Horvath on the podcast.
I don't know.
Feels like forever ago, liketime has no meaning anymore.
But something she said thatjust made it so crystal clear as
well.
at what point in a person'spregnancy is the state more
(30:15):
qualified to make a decisionabout your pregnancy than you
are with your doctor?
And that's the bottom line,right?
There is no point where thestate could ever institute
enough exceptions to take intoaccount people's reality or the
world they live in to ensurethat everybody who needs an
abortion can get one.
(30:37):
And it is, again, just ensuringaccess to basic healthcare no
matter someone's circumstance,to ensure that they are able to
get the care that they need.
Jeanette, you started to kindof allude to this when you were
talking earlier, but what wouldit mean to get rid of that
gestational ban in Massachusettsfor access to care, not only in
(30:59):
Massachusetts, but for theregion?
Jeanette (31:01):
Getting rid of the gestational ban would absolutely
increase access to care, notjust for people in
Massachusetts, but for people inthe surrounding states and or
even in the tri-state area, itwould increase equity.
People who may not otherwise beable to access healthcare will
be able to access healthcare intheir home state or in a state
(31:22):
closer to them.
And again, we see how thisdisproportionately affects
marginalized communities thatmay already be dealing with
systemic oppression, systemicracism, and may not have the
same resources that otherindividuals do.
And Kate really touched onthis.
And Kate, I appreciate youacknowledging that you were able
(31:45):
to cover the cost of aprocedure and travel because
there are a lot of individualswho aren't able to do that,
which again, I appreciate youacknowledging that.
Absolutely.
Right now, abortion funds andpractical support organizations
are really the backbone of alltrimester care.
(32:05):
They are making sure thatindividuals are able to pay for
procedures.
They're making sure thatindividuals are able to get to
appointments.
But there is a finite amount ofresources.
If individuals are able to getcare closer to home, then it's
going to be less costly forthese organizations.
(32:27):
They're going to be able tohelp more people rather than
just one person at a highergestational age with a larger
procedure cost.
And one last thing that Iwanted to say is that patients
don't owe us their stories.
It is not our decision as towhether or not a patient
deserves abortion care.
We never ask a patient theirreason.
(32:47):
Sometimes patients disclose andthat is fine.
But it's not necessary that apatient discloses why they are
getting an abortion.
There is no wrong reason to getan abortion.
Jennie (32:59):
Yeah, I think the other thing that I think about as
you're talking about that ispeople being able to get care
closer to where they live, andthat means maybe less people
from Massachusetts or theNortheast need to come to the
DuPont clinic, and that freesyou up to see other patients.
I know there are so fewall-trimester clinics that
(33:22):
getting an appointment cansometimes be a little
complicated, so more clinics ormore places where people can get
access to the care helpsalleviate the burden on the
overall system to ensure that asmany people as possible are
able to access the care theyneed.
Okay, I always like to end ourconversations thinking about how
(33:42):
the audience can get involvedand what the audience can do.
So let's go to Kate first.
Kate, what are your thoughts ofhow our audience can get
involved in this?
Kate (33:55):
Well, first of all, I just have to tell Jeanette that When
she said, patients don't owe usour stories, I screamed, hell
yeah.
Oh, yeah.
So thank you for saying that.
So there are a lot of greatways for folks to get involved.
Here in Massachusetts, youcould go to Reproductive Equity
(34:16):
Now's website.
It's reproequitynow.orgbackslash equity.
MA agenda, mass agenda.
And there's an overview thereof our broader 2025-2026
Massachusetts legislativeagenda.
And there is a take action pagewhere you can click learn more
(34:37):
and take action on the billcalled expanding abortion access
throughout pregnancy.
And there's some really greatdata points and fact sheets.
And you can click through thewebsite to find Take action by
writing to your legislator.
You can take action by sharingyour own story in any way you
(34:58):
feel comfortable.
Posting to social media,writing a letter to the editor,
signing up for volunteertrainings.
And if you are from anorganization that is either...
based in Massachusetts or NewEngland or nationally, and you
might be interested in offeringyour endorsement of this
legislative approach, you canfind information about that on
(35:22):
the website as well.
Jeanette (35:23):
Contact your state representative.
Tell them that this is an issuethat is important to you and an
issue that is important toindividuals.
their constituents who are ableto get pregnant.
Be vocal in your support of therepeal of a gestational age
ban.
It is okay to talk about secondand third trimester abortion
(35:44):
care.
It's something that peopledon't discuss as much.
There's this stigma surroundingsecond and third trimester
abortion care and people arevery quiet when it comes to that
type of care.
So please continue to discussit, help eliminate that stigma.
Volunteer at your local clinicor your local abortion fund or
(36:05):
practical support organizationand absolutely donate to
national and local abortionfunds and practical support
organizations.
Many of these organizations arealso involved in policy work
and grassroots organizing.
They are Frequently, the firstpeople that patients talk to,
(36:26):
and they do have a very goodunderstanding of the general
climate and the way thatpatients are approaching getting
abortions and any concerns thatthe patients may have.
Specifically for Massachusetts,just to plug them, Abortion
Rights Fund of WesternMassachusetts funds Eastern
(36:46):
Massachusetts Abortion Fund, andTides for Reproductive Freedom.
Those are all amazingorganizations that we work with
at DuPont Clinic and that areable and are helping multiple
individuals who are fromMassachusetts and have to travel
outside Massachusetts for care.
Jennie (37:05):
And then I think I would just add one thing, and it's if
you are unsure if your statehas an abortion gestational
ban, rePROs Fight Back created areport card that came out, this
year's one came out in March.
And if you go to the link we'llhave in our show notes, but
it'sreportcard.reprosfightback.com,
(37:28):
you'll see the overall grademap, but there are toggles on
the side and you can click onabortion restrictions and you
can see which restrictions yourstate has.
and included in that asgestational bans.
You may be surprised in some ofthe states like Massachusetts
where you assume there wouldn'tbe those gestational bans that
your state may have one.
(37:48):
So it's a really great resourceto see how your state is faring
when it comes to a whole slewof issues, but related to today,
gestational bans.
Kate (37:58):
Jeanette, I'm sorry.
I actually thought of anotherway people could get involved
too.
Awesome.
So I would challenge folksto question their own assumptions about abortion later in pregnancy and try to confront any internal stigma you have. And there are some really great resources out there. One that I find indispensable is a website called WhoNotWhen.com. And it’s a project by Patient Forward, an incredible organization. And the website it really helpful in breaking down: what
do we mean by abortion later inpregnancy?
(38:38):
Why would people need abortioncare later in pregnancy?
Why are gestational bansharmful and to whom?
What is this legal construct offetal viability that was
codified in Roe, and why is thata bad legal construct?
So, there are wonderfulresources out there.
(38:58):
So if you want to learn moreabout why people seek care later
in pregnancy and whygestational or viability
matters, bans are so deeplyharmful and do not result in
people being able to accesscare.
Please check outWhoNotWhen.com.
There are other great resourceslinked on there too.
And I think there is amisconception out there held by
(39:23):
a lot of folks, including a lotof pro-choice or even
pro-abortion people that say,this construct of a 24-week ban
with exceptions is a reasonablecompromise, is a moderate
compromise.
And I would just encouragepeople to sit with the reality
of that ban and exceptionconstruct.
(39:44):
That really means that ifyou're a pregnant person in
Massachusetts and your pregnancycrosses this arbitrary point of
pregnancy, quote, fetalviability at 24 weeks, then you
are, in most cases, agovernment-mandated incubator.
(40:05):
You cannot legally get care inMassachusetts, and you are on
your own to try and find careout of state if you can do it,
if you can figure out thoselogistics, if you can cobble
together the money and thewherewithal to travel to 500
miles out of state with litteror no support.
(40:29):
Godspeed.
That's the reality in many ofthese blue states.
And it's a very uncomfortablereality.
I think that some people areuncomfortable with the concept
of an abortion later inpregnancy.
And I would challenge people toalso acknowledge how deeply
(41:00):
uncomfortable and I would sayunjust this current statutory
framework is of forced birth.
And in the best case scenario,forced travel, right?
Again, I'm so lucky at the endof the day to have been able to
seek care out of state.
And the alternatives for mewould have been dire, both to my
(41:20):
physical and mental health andoverall to my self-determination
as a person who should be ableto decide what to do with my
body and my healthcare and myfamily at any point.
So to go back to Dr.
Horvath's own words, you know: at what point in pregnancy is a (41:33):
undefined
politician or the state or thegovernment better able to make a
decision?
I think we would say never.
So just, you know, thank youfor digging into this topic that
I think is often neglected andis often one people would rather
not think about.
But it is, I think,increasingly important in a
(41:57):
national landscape where weknow, as Jeanette said earlier,
that bans at any point areforcing people later and later
in pregnancy.
Bans at any point are forcingpeople to seek care later and
later in pregnancy.
So we're going to be, and Ithink we already are seeing more
and more cases of second andthird trimester abortions
(42:18):
because folks may not have hadthe ability to get an abortion
earlier in pregnancy too.
Jennie (42:23):
I really love that you talked about challenging that
internalized abortion stigmabecause I There is so much
abortion stigma that you justabsorb from the world around
you, just that is in the mediaand the news and all of the
places.
I went to Catholic school.
I had sex ed from a nun.
I had a lot to work through,and I'm sure there are still
(42:44):
parts that I am still trying toroot out.
But it is important torecognize where it exists in the
way you are thinking aboutthese things and to try and
challenge it and get rid of it.
So I appreciate you bringingthat up.
Kate (42:59):
Oh, and we will hear from the Catholic Church in
Massachusetts, no doubt.
I'm sure.
I'm sure they have thoughts.
Yes, always, always, on anyaction.
In fact, they even oppose theincremental changes that we made
to the exceptions frameworkback in 2022.
So opposition at every turn andvery well-funded opposition and
(43:21):
well-connected opposition.
So it's never not a battle.
Jennie (43:25):
Kate, Jeanette, thank you so much for being here
today.
I had so much fun talking toy'all about abortion later in
pregnancy.
Kate (43:31):
Thank you so much.
Thank you both for all that youdo.
Jennie (43:34):
Okay, y'all, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with
Jeanette and Kate.
Like I said, I am really lovingdoing this series.
We are halfway through.
I'm excited for our nextconversations.
With that, I will see everybodynext week.
If you have any questions,comments or topics you would
like us to cover, always feelfree to shoot me an email.
You can reach me at Jennie,J-E-N-N-I-E at
(43:57):
reprosfightback.com or you canfind us on social media.
We're rePROs Fight Back onFacebook and Twitter or @Repros
FB on Instagram.
If you love our podcast andwant to make sure more people
find it, take the time to rateand review us on your favorite
podcast platform.
Or if you want to make sure tosupport the podcast, you can
also donate on our website atreprosfightback.com thanks
Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, a podcast on all things
related to sexual andreproductive health, rights, and
justice.
Hi, rePROs.
How's everybody doing?
I'm your host, Jennie Wetter,and my pronouns are she/her.
So y'all, it is officiallysweaty, sticky season in D.C.
(00:23):
And I am not a fan.
I'm especially not a fanbecause when I record the
podcast, I have to close all mywindows so you don't hear
anything that's happeningoutside.
And I have to turn off my AC sothat you can't hear the fan
running if it runs off.
And that means I just sit hereand roast.
There's a sunlight, well,depending on the time of day,
(00:46):
but today when I was recording,there was like sunlight directly
where I was sitting.
So it was just like slowlygetting hotter and hotter as we
were having this conversationand it was making it a little
hard to focus, but that's okay.
It was still a greatconversation.
Don't worry, y'all.
I made sure that we had a goodconversation, but yeah, not a
fan.
And adding on top of that, asit has gotten warm, for some
(01:07):
reason, all of a Like, hey, Ineed to snuggle with your arm
while you're working.
And I know you're hot andsticky and gross, but I'm just
going to lay my entire kittybody all down the length of your
arm and use your hand for apillow.
Thanks.
So not a fan.
She's lucky.
(01:28):
She's cute.
But yeah, I don't need kittysnuggles while I'm working and
while I'm hot.
Like, thanks, Luna.
Otherwise, I feel like there'sjust so much happening and so
many terrible things to keeptrack of, whether that is the
reconciliation bill or this newrescissions package, which is
(01:52):
looking to claw back a bunch ofmoney from foreign assistance,
particularly from global healthand public broadcasting and.
Yeah, just a lot.
And there is the what ishappening in Los Angeles.
There are many ICE raids thathave been feel like they've been
going on for forever.
(02:13):
And there's just so manyterrible things.
And I'm recording this onWednesday, June 11th.
So before that.
the big military parade in DCthis weekend.
Uh, so the got that to lookforward to.
And by that, I mean, I amstaying in my condo all day and
(02:34):
not going outside.
I don't want anything to dowith it.
I don't want to be near it.
I don't want to deal with it.
I'm sure I'll hear all of thehelicopters and if there's
planes and stuff flying overoverhead, but yeah, I just, I
don't want anything to do withany of it.
And, um, There's just, I feellike it's back to that time
(02:56):
where I've been trying to bereally good about not being on
social media a lot to not getcaught up in what the new latest
outrage is.
But there are so many likelegit, terrible things happening
that it's hard to keep up andit's overwhelming.
And I know that's the point,right?
Is to have so many thingshappening that you can't focus
(03:16):
on any one of them and it makesit harder to push back.
The point is to overwhelm us.
And unfortunately for me, I themoment it seems to be working
like I'm losing my outragecapacity at the moment like I
still have like that flash likeright when it happens but I
can't stay focused on it becausethere's like the new outrage
like 10 minutes later so I'mtrying to find my peace again so
(03:41):
that way I can more effectivelyfight back in the many ways
that I try to fight back so I'mYeah, I'm just feeling a little
overwhelmed right now by all ofthe things.
And like I said, there's justso much happening that it is
making it hard to focus on anyone of them.
Yeah, sorry to be a little bitof a bummer today, y'all.
(04:03):
Let's go back to kitties,right?
Let's go back to luna decidingit is okay to need to snuggle
with my arm when it is 90degrees and I am hot and gross.
Okay, actually, let's just turnto this week's interview.
I feel like there's a lot goingon and i could talk about any
number of them but again mybrain is like scattered and
(04:26):
having a hard time focusing onany one of the terribles so
let's just talk about about thisweek's episode instead.
I'm excited.
This is the next in our serieson abortion later in pregnancy.
I am so very grateful toPatient Forward for helping me
put this series together, inparticular, Bonyen, who has been
so helpful in helping meoutline the series and find
(04:48):
guests and really helping putthis all together.
I am very excited for thiswhole series.
If you haven't heard the firsttwo episodes, we'll make sure to
link them in our show notes sothat way you can listen to all
parts of it because I think it'sa really important conversation
and today we're going to talkabout again abortions later in
pregnancy but we're also goingto be talking about an effort in
(05:11):
Massachusetts to try and repealtheir state's gestational ban
and joining me I am very excitedto have Kate Dineen a patient
advocate and a reproductiveequity now board member in
Massachusetts who's working torepeal that viability ban and
Jeanette Kincaid who's theassociate director of care
(05:31):
coordination at the DuPontClinic.
I am really excited for ourconversation.
So let's go to my interviewwith Jeanette and Kate.
Hi, Kate and Jeanette.
Thank you so much for beinghere today.
Hello.
Hi, thanks for having us.
So before we get into ourconversation, why don't I have
you all introduce yourselves?
Jeanette, would you like to gofirst?
Jeanette (05:52):
Yeah, absolutely.
My name is Jeanette Kincaid.
I use she/ her pronouns, and Iam the Associate Director of
Care Coordination at DuPontClinic in Washington, D.C.
DuPont Clinic is one of a fewall-trimester abortion clinics
in the country, and we seepatients from Massachusetts as
well as from all over the UnitedStates and all over the world.
Jennie (06:14):
Kate, do you want to go?
Kate (06:15):
Hi, my name is Kate Deneen, and I am a later
abortion patient and advocate,and I am based in Boston,
Massachusetts.
I'm also a board member of anorganization called Reproductive
Equity Now, and we work at thestate level in Massachusetts,
Connecticut, and New Hampshirewith a focus on expanding access
(06:36):
to abortion carethroughout pregnancy.
I'm so excited to have both of you on. This is gonna be our third episode in a six-part series on abortion later in pregnancy.
And I’m excited ‘cause this is a little bit of a good-news episode, which is fun. I feel like I don’t get to do those a ton, to hear about some new fights that are happening. So, but before we get there, Kate, let’s hear about how you got involved in this work. I think it’s always helpful to hear people’s personal stories for people to understand what’s at stake when we’re talking about abortion later in pregnancy.
(07:12):
Great, well, thank you so much for creating this space.
So, I got involved in thismovement in a very personal way.
So back in July of 2021, I wasabout 32 weeks into a pregnancy,
meticulously planned and deeplywanted pregnancy, when I went
(07:32):
in for what I thought was aroutine ultrasound.
And the ultrasound techdetected something called
ventriculomegaly in my sonTeddy's brain.
And that led to a whole seriesof, you know, completely
devastating and unexpected nextsteps.
I had a fetal MRI right afterthat ultrasound.
(07:57):
And The MRI detected that myson had suffered a catastrophic
stroke in utero.
And he would either die inutero or survive with a spectrum
of potentially devastatingoutcomes.
The pediatric neurologistcouldn't fully explain what
(08:20):
those outcomes would be.
So , it's often described as agray diagnosis, but the
prognosis for me and my husbandwas so devastating that I
immediately asked, what are myoptions?
And I was standing in mykitchen in Boston on a Zoom
because this was during thepandemic, and I will never
(08:42):
forget the response.
I was told, you may still beable to explore termination if
you're able to travel.
So in that moment, I was justso shocked and confused.
You know, obviously stillprocessing the very unexpected
and devastating fetal diagnosis.
But I thought to myself, travelwhere?
(09:02):
I live in Boston, which upuntil then I had thought to be
this bastion of reproductivejustice.
I've always been verypro-choice and supportive of the
statutory framework that wouldallow access to abortion care.
So I thought I understood whatour state law was and the kind
of care that someone in asituation like mine might be
(09:24):
able to access.
So, you know, just Florida on apersonal level, but also on a
policy level.
And I talked to my providersand
they were very supportive of the decision that I very quickly made, really without much hesitation. But they couldn’t help me. They explained very empathetically that their hands were tied by our state law, but they would help me get care out of state. Interestingly enough, they found me an appointment at the Dupont clinic in D.C. and it was several days out. And I was so anxious to secure this vital care thatI found myself an appointment
(10:05):
just a few days earlier atanother clinic in the Metro DC
area called the Care Clinic,where I got incredibly
compassionate care from the lateDr.
Leroy Carhart.
And so it was just anincredibly disorienting and
raging process to learn thatyour child had been consigned to
(10:27):
either death or a fate farworse than death, in my opinion,
and then to be turned awayby your doctors and told that, “We can’t help you. Even though we want to help you, we can’t help you. You’re going to have to travel.” So, I was in the best possible position to seek care out of state: I have a wonderful partner; we have family nearby; we were able to leave our toddler with family; we have a car; we have access to savings. And we dropped everything and drove 500 miles from Boston to Bethesda, Maryland to obtain that abortion care that my own doctors in one of the leading hospitals
in the country, if not theworld, could not provide me
(11:06):
because of the constraints ofour state law.
And I learned a lot about thedecision-making process along
the way.
My hospital, after the fact,told me that they had a panel in
place to determine whichterminations after 24 weeks
could be performed in-house.
And despite the fact that myson's diagnosis was dismal and
(11:27):
likely fatal, it did not meetthe hospital's definition of a,
quote, lethal fetal anomaly,which...
amounts to a staggeringly shortlist of qualifying diagnoses.
And at the end of the day, I amimmensely grateful for the
diagnostic care that I receivedin Boston and for the
compassionate abortion care Ireceived out of state in
(11:49):
Maryland.
And I'm just incrediblyfortunate that I had the
financial resources and thesupport system to travel out of
state to pay upwards of $10,000out of pocket for medical
expenses and travel costs.
And many other patients simplydon't have So when I came back
from D.C., I started to share mystory publicly here in Boston.
(12:13):
I started to work withorganizations like Reproductive
Equity Now and lawmakers whowere really surprised that
patients were still being deniedcare in Massachusetts.
I kind of got this overwhelmingresponse of like, whoa, we
thought we fixed this in 2020with the Roe Act on the state
level, which was really designedto codify Roe in the state
(12:35):
context.
But we all learn together thata ban with exceptions often just
functions as a ban.
And in 2022, after the Dobbsleak, I had the opportunity to
work with advocates andlawmakers here in Massachusetts
(12:56):
to revisit the statutorylanguage of the Roe Act and to
try and clarify some of thatexceptions framework.
It was clear to me at the timethat we didn't have a real shot
at doing away with thegestational ban altogether.
So, we were really forced tokind of tinker around the
margins and expand theexceptions framework.
(13:17):
and ended up with somecompromise language that does
represent important progresstoward realizing a future
without forced travel or forcedbirth.
And I'm really grateful for theleadership of the House and the
Senate in Massachusetts to tryand make some clarifying changes
to our state law in 2022.
(13:39):
We still have, fast forward to2025, we still have a 24-week
ban on the books, now with moreexpansive exceptions.
So in addition to the lethalfetal anomaly provision that my
son's case did not qualify for,there is now a grave fetal
(13:59):
diagnosis provision.
And we do know that is allowingcertain patients to receive
care in state who would havepreviously been forced to
travel.
However, we know that patientsare still being denied care and
forced to attempt to travel outof state.
Now, during, of course, a timeof a lot of legal uncertainty, a
(14:21):
time of scarce resources whereour abortion funds that often
provide resources for folkstraveling out of state are
strained, where incredibleall-trimester clinics like the
DuPont clinic have constraintsand, you know, obviously limited
openings.
And what we're trying to do nowhere in Massachusetts is to
(14:45):
revisit our state law again andto try and do away with that
24-week gestational banaltogether so that we can untie
the hands of our world-classmedical providers here in
Massachusetts and allow them toprovide the compassionate care
to their patients that by andlarge they want to provide so
(15:08):
that patients are able to getcare in state.
They're not forced to attemptto travel, which we know many
people just cannot travel formany reasons.
And you know, from myperspective as a later abortion
patient who was forced totravel, I think that we in
Massachusetts have a real moralimperative right now to expand
access to abortion carethroughout pregnancy and stop
(15:32):
straining this very fragilenetwork of abortion funds and
this vital network of alltrimester clinics and really
commit to being a bastion forreproductive justice and commit
to changing our state law sothat the decision around moving
forward with a pregnancy is onebetween the patient and their
(15:55):
provider.
Jennie (15:56):
Kate, thank you so much for sharing your story.
I really appreciate you doingthat.
And I think Kate's story reallyillustrates the limitations of
exceptions.
And Jeanette, maybe you cantalk a little bit about
exceptions and why they're justlike not enough.
Jeanette (16:14):
Absolutely.
So first of all, overall, theidea of exceptions to
gestational age limits doesperpetuate this anti-abortion
argument that some individualsare more deserving of abortion
care than others.
We also see exceptions that arevaguely worded.
kind of like Kate was saying,they're not incredibly clear
(16:36):
even when you do have theopportunity to go back and add
to these exceptions or reworkthese exceptions.
The wording of exceptions maycreate confusion among providers
and patients who are concernedabout violating the law, which
does have a chilling effect onpatients' ability to seek
abortions as well as providers'ability to to provide abortion
(17:00):
care to these patients.
We see patients who come fromout of state, including
Massachusetts, who areterminating a pregnancy and they
did not qualify for anexception or were not able to
get an exception.
And we can see that in someways, the decision-making as to
(17:22):
who is able to get an exceptioncan be subjective, again, just
due to this vaguely wordedstatutory language.
Abortion seekers may think thatthey do need to carry a
pregnancy to term because theydon't know that they have any
options.
They may have a provider who isnot able to give them those
(17:43):
options or not willing to givethem those options, which is
something that we do see,unfortunately.
Another factor is thatexceptions cause delays to care.
Applying for and being grantedan exception can take time.
It can take weeks.
And at that point, thepregnancy is further along.
Patients are at a highergestational age by the time they
(18:05):
are able to get a procedure,even if they are granted an
exception.
And one of the things that wedo see is the potential for
increased risk for patients witha complex medical history if
they are at a higher gestationalage.
Like Kate was saying, there areabortion seekers who are forced
to travel out of state for carebecause they are not granted
(18:27):
these exceptions.
We see an increased procedurecost as a patient is further
along in their pregnancy, aswell as increased logistical
barriers.
So procedures can be anywherefrom one to four days, depending
on the clinic and depending ongestational age.
Logistically, this means that apatient who is seeking an
(18:50):
abortion needs to find childcarefor multiple days.
They need to take off from workfor multiple days or take time
off from school for multipledays.
And this can have a seriouseffect on their life.
They may have to deal with lostwages.
They may have to reach out tofamily or friends who are
unsupportive for childcare.
(19:11):
And in that, we see a lot ofinequity and disparity in
access.
Exceptions disproportionately,overwhelmingly affect
marginalized communities who mayalready have limited access to
healthcare.
And they contribute topreexisting healthcare
inequities because abortion careis healthcare and individuals
(19:33):
have a right to seek that carewithout worrying about
gestational age limits or havingto apply for an exception and
having to speak with a panel ofdoctors or a single doctor who
makes the decision as to whetheror not that pregnancy is
harmful to their physical ormental health, whether a fetal
anomaly is grave enough towarrant an abortion over 24
(19:57):
weeks in gestation, whether thefetal anomaly is lethal.
We see a lot of exceptions inred states, but they can happen
in blue states likeMassachusetts as well.
The goal is to, like Kate isdoing, like people Kate is
working with are doing, the goalis to improve access, increase
(20:19):
access for patients all over thestate and for patients in
neighboring states who may wantto travel to Massachusetts for
abortion care.
Jennie (20:26):
I really love that you called out what this is all
about is the perpetuation ofthat there are good abortions
and bad abortions and not justthat this is healthcare that
people need access to because Ithink it is just so important
that people kind of shift theirmindset because I think
sometimes they hear gestationalbans and they don't think
(20:48):
through all of the reasonspeople may need an abortion
later in pregnancy.
They don't think about being inthat position and needing
access to the health care andnot being able to get it until
they are in that position.
Okay, Kate, do you want to tellus a little bit about the
campaign that is going on inMassachusetts right now to try
(21:09):
and get rid of their gestationalban?
Kate (21:10):
I would love to.
And I'm just so grateful to bespeaking with you both and
appreciate the perspective.
of the DuPont Clinic andJeanette's leadership.
It is just so amazing to hear,Jeanette, you speak about the
issue.
And every day you're showing upfor patients who've been denied
(21:32):
care all over the country.
And I just really reflect uponthe fact that I am one of the
lucky ones.
I had the resources andwherewithal to travel and to
seek care out of state.
And the alternative for me wasone of just frankly, government
(21:53):
mandated forced birth, right, inMassachusetts, really, really
plainly stated.
And so, you know, I justcontinue to think about the
patients who may not be able toto travel may not know what
options exist for them.
So just thank you for all thatyou're doing to make people
aware that there are stilloptions out there for them,
(22:13):
regardless of where they live.
So just thank you.
But I would be delighted totalk more about what we're doing
right now in Massachusetts totry and expand access to care
throughout pregnancy.
So working in partnership withsome leaders in both the State
Senate and the House, we areadvocating for a piece of
legislation called called theprioritizing patient access to
(22:36):
care act that is being sponsoredby state senator robin kennedy
and state reps christine barberand lindsey sabadosa here in
massachusetts they are allchampions true champions for
reproductive justice and youreally understand what's at
stake if we are not able to act,and we really just maintain the
(22:59):
status quo.
So what this bill would do isto expand access after 24 weeks
of pregnancy when in the bestprofessional judgment of a
licensed physician.
And this bill is looselymodeled after legislation that
passed in Maine just in 2023,which is kind of an interesting
model and an interesting testcase politically in terms of red
(23:23):
states, blue states, and purplestates.
Really, Maine was able to tomake some substantial progress
back in 2023 and I think we wantto kind of learn from that as a
state and really upend thecurrent status quo which of
course is a ban with now moreexpansive exceptions and the
intent is really simple.
(23:44):
The goal is to enable doctorsto give their patients the best
medical care possible withoutgovernment interference and I
often think that when we talkabout you know good abortions
versus bad abortions or numberof weeks of gestation or the
specifics of qualifyingdiagnoses we really over
(24:06):
complicate the issue it's reallyabout who decides is it the
government?
Is it a politician or is it thepatient and their healthcare
provider?
And so our goal here is reallyto remove politics from the exam
room.
And at no point in pregnancy isa politician who writes a law
more qualified to make decisionsabout abortion than a patient
(24:27):
and their doctor.
So it's really that simple,just framing it as a healthcare
decision that should be guidedby medicine and science and not
by political opinion or reallyarbitrary statutes and arbitrary
viability or gestationalcutoffs.
And we really just firmlybelieve that no patient should
have to leave Massachusetts forcare.
(24:48):
And we know that that is stillhappening with some degree of
regularity.
I am personally aware ofseveral cases just in the past
month or so, having connectedwith patients who went through
very similar experiences that Idid.
And just knowing that they havelived through the same trauma
that I have is reallyheartbreaking and it's also
(25:09):
really profoundly motivating totry and change the way that our
state law is structured here inMassachusetts.
There are some encouragingtrends in public opinion
polling, including polls thathave been conducted here
recently in Massachusetts.
You know, what we're seeing isthat expanding access to
(25:31):
abortion is popular.
Massachusetts residents arereally demanding that our
Commonwealth continue to be abeacon for care.
And especially as now we havewith Trump in office and
tremendous amount of uncertaintyabout what's happening at the
federal level.
So according to some recentpolling conducted by Reaper
Productive Equity Now'sfoundation and EMC research, two
(25:56):
out of three Massachusettsvoters support expanding access
to abortion later in pregnancybased on the professional
judgment of a physician.
So those are really encouragingpolling results.
Again, we don't think policyshould be directly influenced by
public opinion.
However, that public opiniontrajectory is really encouraging
(26:17):
that people are are starting tounderstand that it's really not
about number of weeks.
It's not about specific fetaldiagnosis or specific life
circumstance to sort out whatabortions are good or bad.
It's about who decides, thepatient or the politician.
(26:39):
And I think Americans acrossthe country, not just here in
Massachusetts, are becomingincreasingly wary of government
interference.
And our hope here is that wecan really leverage that to make
some smart, common sensechanges to our own state law
here.
And, you know, in doing that,we're trying to sort through
(27:00):
some of the stigma and some ofthe misinformation that's out
there.
We are trying to reinforce thatabortion later in pregnancy is
not done for convenience.
I think that is a commontalking point of the antis.
And we even saw that trottedout on the presidential debate
stage when we have politicianstalking about so-called
(27:21):
late-term abortion or so-calledpartial birth abortion or
infanticide.
The reality is abortions laterin pregnancy are not done for
convenience.
They're serious medicalprocedures, in my case, often
necessary due to unexpectedcomplications.
But also due to changing lifecircumstances, right?
So it's not just about storieslike mine where it was a
(27:46):
devastating fetal diagnosisidentified later in pregnancy.
There are a variety of reasonswhy someone may need to or want
to pursue an abortion later inpregnancy.
And I would argue that thosereasons are all deeply personal,
not the government's business,and they're all valid.
So...
(28:06):
Our hope is to expand access tocare throughout pregnancy and
really ensure that patients anddoctors Who are the ones
carefully considering thesedecisions can prioritize health,
safety, and really lead withcompassion for patients who are
grappling with reallychallenging circumstances across
the board.
(28:26):
So something that you saidearlier really resonated with me
around good versus badabortions.
And for me, as a later abortionpatient, when I tell my story,
I really wrestle with thatbecause I find that most people
(28:47):
hear a story like mine, a sadstory of a mom trying to have
another baby and really beingconfronted with this unexpected,
devastating fetal diagnosis.
I think my story is often metby a tremendous amount of
empathy.
And people say, oh, yes, well,your case is sad enough you
(29:09):
should have been able to qualifyfor an exception but that's not
what this is all about rightit's not about carving out more
exceptions it's not abouttinkering around the edges of
statutory language it's reallyabout protecting healthcare
decisions and keepingpoliticians out of our exam
rooms and allowing patients andproviders to make informed
(29:32):
decisions together withoutgovernment interference.
And so that stigma is very muchstill with us, even, I think,
in the pro-choice movement.
And so it's something, youknow, as a storyteller who has
an arguably sad story, I thinkit's really important for people
like me to affirm that youshouldn't need a sad story to be
able to access abortion laterin pregnancy.
Jennie (29:54):
Yeah, I all I could think of as you were talking is
had Dr.
Diane Horvath on the podcast.
I don't know.
Feels like forever ago, liketime has no meaning anymore.
But something she said thatjust made it so crystal clear as
well.
at what point in a person'spregnancy is the state more
(30:15):
qualified to make a decisionabout your pregnancy than you
are with your doctor?
And that's the bottom line,right?
There is no point where thestate could ever institute
enough exceptions to take intoaccount people's reality or the
world they live in to ensurethat everybody who needs an
abortion can get one.
(30:37):
And it is, again, just ensuringaccess to basic healthcare no
matter someone's circumstance,to ensure that they are able to
get the care that they need.
Jeanette, you started to kindof allude to this when you were
talking earlier, but what wouldit mean to get rid of that
gestational ban in Massachusettsfor access to care, not only in
(30:59):
Massachusetts, but for theregion?
Jeanette (31:01):
Getting rid of the gestational ban would absolutely
increase access to care, notjust for people in
Massachusetts, but for people inthe surrounding states and or
even in the tri-state area, itwould increase equity.
People who may not otherwise beable to access healthcare will
be able to access healthcare intheir home state or in a state
(31:22):
closer to them.
And again, we see how thisdisproportionately affects
marginalized communities thatmay already be dealing with
systemic oppression, systemicracism, and may not have the
same resources that otherindividuals do.
And Kate really touched onthis.
And Kate, I appreciate youacknowledging that you were able
(31:45):
to cover the cost of aprocedure and travel because
there are a lot of individualswho aren't able to do that,
which again, I appreciate youacknowledging that.
Absolutely.
Right now, abortion funds andpractical support organizations
are really the backbone of alltrimester care.
(32:05):
They are making sure thatindividuals are able to pay for
procedures.
They're making sure thatindividuals are able to get to
appointments.
But there is a finite amount ofresources.
If individuals are able to getcare closer to home, then it's
going to be less costly forthese organizations.
(32:27):
They're going to be able tohelp more people rather than
just one person at a highergestational age with a larger
procedure cost.
And one last thing that Iwanted to say is that patients
don't owe us their stories.
It is not our decision as towhether or not a patient
deserves abortion care.
We never ask a patient theirreason.
(32:47):
Sometimes patients disclose andthat is fine.
But it's not necessary that apatient discloses why they are
getting an abortion.
There is no wrong reason to getan abortion.
Jennie (32:59):
Yeah, I think the other thing that I think about as
you're talking about that ispeople being able to get care
closer to where they live, andthat means maybe less people
from Massachusetts or theNortheast need to come to the
DuPont clinic, and that freesyou up to see other patients.
I know there are so fewall-trimester clinics that
(33:22):
getting an appointment cansometimes be a little
complicated, so more clinics ormore places where people can get
access to the care helpsalleviate the burden on the
overall system to ensure that asmany people as possible are
able to access the care theyneed.
Okay, I always like to end ourconversations thinking about how
(33:42):
the audience can get involvedand what the audience can do.
So let's go to Kate first.
Kate, what are your thoughts ofhow our audience can get
involved in this?
Kate (33:55):
Well, first of all, I just have to tell Jeanette that When
she said, patients don't owe usour stories, I screamed, hell
yeah.
Oh, yeah.
So thank you for saying that.
So there are a lot of greatways for folks to get involved.
Here in Massachusetts, youcould go to Reproductive Equity
(34:16):
Now's website.
It's reproequitynow.orgbackslash equity.
MA agenda, mass agenda.
And there's an overview thereof our broader 2025-2026
Massachusetts legislativeagenda.
And there is a take action pagewhere you can click learn more
(34:37):
and take action on the billcalled expanding abortion access
throughout pregnancy.
And there's some really greatdata points and fact sheets.
And you can click through thewebsite to find Take action by
writing to your legislator.
You can take action by sharingyour own story in any way you
(34:58):
feel comfortable.
Posting to social media,writing a letter to the editor,
signing up for volunteertrainings.
And if you are from anorganization that is either...
based in Massachusetts or NewEngland or nationally, and you
might be interested in offeringyour endorsement of this
legislative approach, you canfind information about that on
(35:22):
the website as well.
Jeanette (35:23):
Contact your state representative.
Tell them that this is an issuethat is important to you and an
issue that is important toindividuals.
their constituents who are ableto get pregnant.
Be vocal in your support of therepeal of a gestational age
ban.
It is okay to talk about secondand third trimester abortion
(35:44):
care.
It's something that peopledon't discuss as much.
There's this stigma surroundingsecond and third trimester
abortion care and people arevery quiet when it comes to that
type of care.
So please continue to discussit, help eliminate that stigma.
Volunteer at your local clinicor your local abortion fund or
(36:05):
practical support organizationand absolutely donate to
national and local abortionfunds and practical support
organizations.
Many of these organizations arealso involved in policy work
and grassroots organizing.
They are Frequently, the firstpeople that patients talk to,
(36:26):
and they do have a very goodunderstanding of the general
climate and the way thatpatients are approaching getting
abortions and any concerns thatthe patients may have.
Specifically for Massachusetts,just to plug them, Abortion
Rights Fund of WesternMassachusetts funds Eastern
(36:46):
Massachusetts Abortion Fund, andTides for Reproductive Freedom.
Those are all amazingorganizations that we work with
at DuPont Clinic and that areable and are helping multiple
individuals who are fromMassachusetts and have to travel
outside Massachusetts for care.
Jennie (37:05):
And then I think I would just add one thing, and it's if
you are unsure if your statehas an abortion gestational
ban, rePROs Fight Back created areport card that came out, this
year's one came out in March.
And if you go to the link we'llhave in our show notes, but
it'sreportcard.reprosfightback.com,
(37:28):
you'll see the overall grademap, but there are toggles on
the side and you can click onabortion restrictions and you
can see which restrictions yourstate has.
and included in that asgestational bans.
You may be surprised in some ofthe states like Massachusetts
where you assume there wouldn'tbe those gestational bans that
your state may have one.
(37:48):
So it's a really great resourceto see how your state is faring
when it comes to a whole slewof issues, but related to today,
gestational bans.
Kate (37:58):
Jeanette, I'm sorry.
I actually thought of anotherway people could get involved
too.
Awesome.
So I would challenge folksto question their own assumptions about abortion later in pregnancy and try to confront any internal stigma you have. And there are some really great resources out there. One that I find indispensable is a website called WhoNotWhen.com. And it’s a project by Patient Forward, an incredible organization. And the website it really helpful in breaking down: what
do we mean by abortion later inpregnancy?
(38:38):
Why would people need abortioncare later in pregnancy?
Why are gestational bansharmful and to whom?
What is this legal construct offetal viability that was
codified in Roe, and why is thata bad legal construct?
So, there are wonderfulresources out there.
(38:58):
So if you want to learn moreabout why people seek care later
in pregnancy and whygestational or viability
matters, bans are so deeplyharmful and do not result in
people being able to accesscare.
Please check outWhoNotWhen.com.
There are other great resourceslinked on there too.
And I think there is amisconception out there held by
(39:23):
a lot of folks, including a lotof pro-choice or even
pro-abortion people that say,this construct of a 24-week ban
with exceptions is a reasonablecompromise, is a moderate
compromise.
And I would just encouragepeople to sit with the reality
of that ban and exceptionconstruct.
(39:44):
That really means that ifyou're a pregnant person in
Massachusetts and your pregnancycrosses this arbitrary point of
pregnancy, quote, fetalviability at 24 weeks, then you
are, in most cases, agovernment-mandated incubator.
(40:05):
You cannot legally get care inMassachusetts, and you are on
your own to try and find careout of state if you can do it,
if you can figure out thoselogistics, if you can cobble
together the money and thewherewithal to travel to 500
miles out of state with litteror no support.
(40:29):
Godspeed.
That's the reality in many ofthese blue states.
And it's a very uncomfortablereality.
I think that some people areuncomfortable with the concept
of an abortion later inpregnancy.
And I would challenge people toalso acknowledge how deeply
(41:00):
uncomfortable and I would sayunjust this current statutory
framework is of forced birth.
And in the best case scenario,forced travel, right?
Again, I'm so lucky at the endof the day to have been able to
seek care out of state.
And the alternatives for mewould have been dire, both to my
(41:20):
physical and mental health andoverall to my self-determination
as a person who should be ableto decide what to do with my
body and my healthcare and myfamily at any point.
So to go back to Dr.
Horvath's own words, you know: at what point in pregnancy is a (41:33):
undefined
politician or the state or thegovernment better able to make a
decision?
I think we would say never.
So just, you know, thank youfor digging into this topic that
I think is often neglected andis often one people would rather
not think about.
But it is, I think,increasingly important in a
(41:57):
national landscape where weknow, as Jeanette said earlier,
that bans at any point areforcing people later and later
in pregnancy.
Bans at any point are forcingpeople to seek care later and
later in pregnancy.
So we're going to be, and Ithink we already are seeing more
and more cases of second andthird trimester abortions
(42:18):
because folks may not have hadthe ability to get an abortion
earlier in pregnancy too.
Jennie (42:23):
I really love that you talked about challenging that
internalized abortion stigmabecause I There is so much
abortion stigma that you justabsorb from the world around
you, just that is in the mediaand the news and all of the
places.
I went to Catholic school.
I had sex ed from a nun.
I had a lot to work through,and I'm sure there are still
(42:44):
parts that I am still trying toroot out.
But it is important torecognize where it exists in the
way you are thinking aboutthese things and to try and
challenge it and get rid of it.
So I appreciate you bringingthat up.
Kate (42:59):
Oh, and we will hear from the Catholic Church in
Massachusetts, no doubt.
I'm sure.
I'm sure they have thoughts.
Yes, always, always, on anyaction.
In fact, they even oppose theincremental changes that we made
to the exceptions frameworkback in 2022.
So opposition at every turn andvery well-funded opposition and
(43:21):
well-connected opposition.
So it's never not a battle.
Jennie (43:25):
Kate, Jeanette, thank you so much for being here
today.
I had so much fun talking toy'all about abortion later in
pregnancy.
Kate (43:31):
Thank you so much.
Thank you both for all that youdo.
Jennie (43:34):
Okay, y'all, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with
Jeanette and Kate.
Like I said, I am really lovingdoing this series.
We are halfway through.
I'm excited for our nextconversations.
With that, I will see everybodynext week.
If you have any questions,comments or topics you would
like us to cover, always feelfree to shoot me an email.
You can reach me at Jennie,J-E-N-N-I-E at
(43:57):
reprosfightback.com or you canfind us on social media.
We're rePROs Fight Back onFacebook and Twitter or @Repros
FB on Instagram.
If you love our podcast andwant to make sure more people
find it, take the time to rateand review us on your favorite
podcast platform.
Or if you want to make sure tosupport the podcast, you can
also donate on our website atreprosfightback.com thanks
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