September 16, 2025 • 46 mins
Starting in her teenage years, Kate Helen Downey’s menstrual cycle was extremely painful. In her adult life, she received an endometriosis diagnosis, which can cause severe menstrual pain. Kate, host and producer of the podcast CRAMPED, sits down with us to share about her experience and encourage everyone to talk about their period pain.
Kate’s podcast, CRAMPED, seeks to explore more about why the medical system—and all of us—know next to nothing about period pain. Many people learn about menstruation through movies and TV, where a young girl getting her period for the first time is the primary representation of menstrual health. Rarely do we see reliable depiction of the pain that comes with menstruation. Talking openly with your friends and loved ones about the experience of menstruating can help us destigmatize periods, understand our own pain, understand other people’s pain, comfort one another, and heal.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jennie (00:03):
Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, a podcast on all things
related to sexual andreproductive health, rights, and
justice.
Hi, rePROs.
How's everybody doing?
I'm your host, Jennie Wetter,and my pronouns are she/ her.
So y'all, it has been oddlynice here in DC still.
There was one or two days whereit got really hot, but it's
(00:29):
been in the 70s and 80s and justgorgeous.
I've had my windows open for,like, I don't know, like, two
solid weeks now and it, like,rained for a little bit, like,
last Saturday or Sunday and so Ihad to close the windows
because it was like raining in.
And the look of betrayal onLuna's face; she was so pissed
(00:54):
that I had to close the windowson her.
She was just so angry and Ifelt really bad because she just
loves sitting in the window somuch but she was like sitting
there and, like, staring at thewindow and then looking at me
and looking at the window.
And she was just really upset.
So, she was very happy when wewere able to be opened again.
(01:15):
And she's coping at the momentbecause I had to have them
closed for the interview for thepodcast.
So, you couldn't hear all theoutside noise.
But it's so funny becausethat's just like her happy
place.
And so, since she had it backafter having air conditioning
and having to have the windowsclosed like for the summer, she
has been so excited to have themopen again for this little
(01:37):
streak.
Let's see what else has beengoing on...
oh I have been trying to findmy new like I'm watching TV and
I need something else to doproject and so I started a cross
stitch project.
I haven't cross stitched in,like, I don't know since I want
to say since I was a kid butmaybe I did like a small project
(02:00):
I feel like maybe I did like alittle like quote or something a
couple years ago I thinksomebody got me like a Golden
Girls cross stitch kit which Ithink I did like one thing out
of it so I started a new crossstitch project and it has been
relaxing to like yes I amsitting on the couch watching TV
and doing nothing but now I'mnot doing nothing because I am
(02:23):
doing cross stitch and I can seeprogress I am jabbing a needle
into something thousands oftimes and working on a project
and working out stress and ithas been lovely and I also
ordered some yarn for someknitting projects so I will have
(02:43):
lots of things to keep meentertained for having downtime
which I'm looking forward to.
It's nice to have some likecrafty projects to work on.
I think I'm going to stop therebecause we have a little bit of
a longer interview today that Iam so excited about we are
going to talk about periods andperiod patterns pain.
(03:04):
And honestly, there isn't abetter person to come on and do
that with than Kate HelenDowney, who is the host of the
podcast CRAMPED, which youshould also definitely check
out.
I will be on an episode of herpodcast in the near future as
well, but definitely make sureto check out CRAMPED.
As you will hear today, Kate iswonderful and you definitely
(03:24):
don't want to miss out on it.
So with that, let's go to myinterview with Kate.
Hi, Kate.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Kate (03:32):
Hi, Jennie.
It's so good to be here.
Thank you for having me.
Jennie (03:35):
I'm so excited.
We did an episode of CRAMPEDwhere that'll be coming out in
the near-ish future.
Yes.
But let's talk about CRAMPEDhere for a second.
Can you, one, introduceyourself, but two, let's talk,
tell us about CRAMPED.
Kate (03:51):
My name is Kate Helen Downey.
I am the host and producer ofthe podcast CRAMPED, and that is
a deep dive into my search foranswers to my severe period
pain.
Sometimes I find answers, butmore often we explore why it's
so hard to find answers or whythe answers aren't there at all,
(04:12):
especially considering howcommon severe period pain is.
Jennie (04:17):
Oh man, that just makes me think of, I just read a book
recently that feels like it gotall into the data gap around
women and stuff, which isInvisible Women: Exposing Data Bias in a World Designed for Men.
Oh, my God.
Kate (04:34):
Oh my God.
Yes.
I read that as as research lastyear for the first 10 episodes.
And yep, it I never have I beenso enraged reading.
Jennie (04:45):
There was so much there were like a lot of things I
knew, but like there were somany examples in there that I
was just like, Jesus Christ.
Kate (04:53):
Yeah.
And she's not even completelyfocusing on medical stuff.
Like the seatbelt thing was thethe huge like metaphor from
that of just like oh seatbelts;all crash test dummies are
designed to, like, malesaverages, male specifications
and so, like, as women when weput on our seatbelts we are less
safe than men because the datathat is used to develop the
(05:17):
safety technology is male data.
Jennie (05:20):
And, like, even when they do women it's just scaled
down men.
Kate (05:23):
Yeah, they're like, oh it doesn't matter that your weight
distribution is totallydifferent, we're just gonna,
like (05:29):
what if you were shorter men?
Jennie (05:32):
Yeah, great, thanks.
Awesome.
Okay, and I loved like the sizerange.
I was like okay, but I'm fivefoot I fall outside of all of
that.
Awesome, thanks guys.
Kate (05:41):
Yep, yep.
I'm 5'2'', so nothing's safefor me.
Countertops?
Not designed for us.
Jennie (05:50):
No.
Like shelves, like, I obviouslyhave all the stools because I
can't reach anything on like...
the second shelf is about it.
And then it's like, okay.
Kate (06:00):
Yep.
Rude.
It's rude.
Jennie (06:03):
Short girl life, right?
Okay.
So, why do we need totalk about periods?
I'm so glad you asked.
I've spent the last year and ahalf, like, exclusively talking
about periods pretty much.
And that is very different thanthe rest of my life.
So first of all, I spent 22years in severe period pain
(06:26):
almost every month, likethrowing up, passing out, going
to the emergency room.
And I never, until last year, Ihad no diagnosis, no effective
treatment.
I would talk to everygynecologist I went to, every
PCP I went to.
I would say, hey, I'm havingthis problem.
It's like my biggest medicalproblem.
Please help.
(06:47):
Please help me figure outwhat's going on.
Like, this has been true sinceI started my period when I was
14, what's happening?
Help me.
And they would do anultrasound.
It would come back normal.
And they'd go, ah, weird.
Everything's normal.
You're fine.
Like, no further questions.
And I was still in pain, stillhaving all these problems with
(07:08):
it.
And when I was a teenager, I,you know, didn't talk to other
people about it.
Or I would try.
And I would say to my friends,like, hey, do you guys get
really bad cramps?
And they would be like, yeah,of course.
Like,cramps suck. They're the worst. But we didn't know that we were- I didn't have words for what I was experiencing.
You were, like, talking about separate things, right?
(07:31):
Yeah, and I was like, oh, I guess...
Like, these cramps kinda suck.
Yeah, but what was I supposed to think as a 15, 16 year old except, like, oh,I
guess I'm really bad at handling this and everybody else just takes it in stride, and there's something wrong with me that doctors can't tell me what's going on, like nobody takes me seriously. Nobody asks me questions about this.
This situation that, like, ifit was anything else, I would be
(07:53):
rushed to the hospital foremergency surgery.
But as soon as someone hearsI'm on my period, they're like,
oh, well, what are you talkingto me for?
Icky girl stuff.
Kate (08:02):
Yeah.
Go lie down.
Don't bother me about it.
So, after 22 years, I finallywent to an endometriosis
specialist and I got diagnosedwith endometriosis, which one in
10 people with a uterus has.
And it causes severe menstrualpain as well as like GI issues,
tons of other like inflammatoryissues, immune issues, chronic
(08:22):
pelvic pain.
It causes all this stuffbecause it takes an average of
seven to 10 years in the US forsomeone to get diagnosed with
it, despite one in 10 peoplewith a uterus having it.
That's a WHO estimation.
That's crazy.
If you went to a spinal surgeonor a spinal doctor and they
(08:44):
were like, oh, we don't knowwhat's wrong with you.
And then you found out you hada thing that one in 10 people
with spinal You'd be like, howis that doctor not know about
that?
Like, why is this not taught inmedical school if one in 10 of
their patients is going to haveit?
Totally insane.
And that's just one conditionthat causes severe menstrual
(09:06):
pain.
There's not one thing thatcauses severe menstrual pain.
It can be a myriad of things.
And yet it is incredibly hardto get treatment for it.
And it screws up your life.
It really, really impacts yourlife.
Yeah, absolutely.
Now they're actually findingthat like they may be physically
(09:52):
connected, like theinflammation from the severe
period pain may also becontributing to depression or
anxiety.
So anyway, that's a long way ofsaying we need to talk about
these things.
We need to talk about severeperiod pain because it is often
a symptom of something else thatis wrong that is not getting
attention.
And we need to talk aboutperiod pain because so many of
(10:15):
us are in period pain so much ofthe time.
And so, we should be talkingabout it.
Jennie (10:22):
Well, it just like takes me back to like sex ed and,
like, the information youclearly don't get.
Like, at least I know I clearlydid not get like it was very
much like, oh, yeah, no, this isthis is what happens.
And like PMS and like noexplanation of like, hey, if
(10:42):
this happens, like this might besomething to worry about or
like this whole other range ofthings that can happen around
your period.
Kate (10:49):
Oh, my God.
Not just, you're gonna be moody and want chocolate and maybe have some little baby cramps; no, like, okay, but here are some other things that your body could be going through. And it took me until I got a period tracking app to be like huh, this thing seems to always happen around this time of the month. They must be related.
(11:19):
Yeah, well, so much period education such as it exists, if you get any, it is often really focused onhygiene on which is important
like that's that's alsoimportant but so much of it is
focused on, like, how to makesure no one else ever knows that
you're on your period.
What products to use to likecover it up how to not smell bad
how I mean I the first thing Iremember from sex ed we did like
(11:42):
an early sex ed where theybasically just gave us all
deodorant in like fourth orfifth grade and they like little
deodorant samples and they werelike for the love of god please
start wearing deodorant.
And so so much of periodeducation isn't actually about
like here's the changes yourbody is going through and here's
like information to help younavigate that or help you be
(12:05):
healthy as you go through thatand when to know that
something's wrong so much of itis like it and it's very clearly
communicated to us is likedon't make this anybody else's
problem don't make anyone elseuncomfortable.
Jennie (12:19):
Shame.
Kate (12:20):
Feel shame.
Yes.
Here's how to cover this up.
And like, oh, we're teachingyou about this.
We're being really open aboutthis.
But it's like what you're beingopen about is how to cover it
up.
And explaining to us that weshould feel shame, that we
should be embarrassed aboutthis, that we should never
(12:41):
reveal that it's happening tous.
And that's really messed up.
And it starts really early.
Jennie (12:47):
Yeah, like, I feel like I remember like there was a
period of time where they werelike and here are tampon
wrappers or pad wrappers thatcrinkle less so, like, nobody
knows.
Kate (13:01):
I feel like there were tampon wrappers that, like, were
disguised to look like markersor something and they were
marketed to teenagers so thatyou could like keep them in your
backpack and no one would,like, know it was a tampon if
they happen to see it and it'slike-
Jennie (13:14):
Oh man, I missed that one, but that would not
surprise me at all.
Kate (13:17):
I might have made it up, that might have been
a fever dream.
But like, yeah, it's, yeah, I,and I, it's also so, it's so,
it's such bad timing, because weget our periods at the time
when we most desperately don'twant to be different from
anybody else.
Yeah, for sure.
(13:48):
And the biological fact is that we're all gonna get our periods at slightly different times within a range, you know, over the course of a few years. We’re all gonna have different symptoms and experiences. And the only thingthat's important to us is that
like we just don't want to bedifferent from anybody else and
so we shut that we like don'ttalk about anything that even if
it's like a problem orconcerning we're like never
mind, nothing, no.
Jennie (14:02):
That just makes me think so for my like I don't know
13th or 14th birthday I don'tremember I really wanted white
pants— obviously, as you wouldright, yeah?
Yes.
The early aughts if we'resimilar ages.
(14:23):
No, that's probably not theright choice.
And obviously, I was like, mygodmother was like, let's go
shopping for your birthday.
And I was like, I want whitepants.
They were like off-white.
Kate (14:37):
It's also so specific at that age.
You need to have something sospecific, like the social, like
everyone in your class.
For me, it was the three-stripeAdidas.
Oh, yes.
desperately wanted that, and mymom bought me like the four
stripe Walmart knockoffs and Iwas like no that I will be
outcast.
Jennie (14:57):
I got my first period wearing them and like I mean
obviously that was the wholepoint of that story was, like,
my mom was like and remember,this is why I said no.
Kate (15:10):
But, you know, that was- that's an irresistible thing for
the universe.
You get white pants, you'regonna get your period.
Jennie (15:17):
I mean, I obviously wanted say it was like the first
time I wore them, but thatmight not be true.
That might just be like themyth building in my head.
Kate (15:26):
The narrative, the force of narrative exerting itself.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jennie (15:30):
Okay.
So that leads me to think abouthow periods and period pain are
or aren't represented in themedia.
Cause like, this is how likeyou can deal with stigma and
things can get socialized or youcan learn about some of these
things.
Kate (15:44):
Yeah.
Jennie (15:45):
What do you see?
Kate (15:46):
Very little.
You see very little.
In terms of periodrepresentation in general, I
would say 95% or let's say 90%of period representation in
movies and TV is young girlsgetting their period for the
(16:06):
first time.
My girl, what's that one withRosie O'Donnell in it about the
girls that all grew up together?
I can't remember the name, thename has like nothing to do with
the movie it's just it's aboutit's like a coming of age story
of a group of girls who arefriends and they are talking
about getting their period andand it's always this like big...
(16:27):
Oh!Are You There God? It's Me, Margaret.
That's mostly a book up until acouple years ago but now it's a
movie.
Jennie (16:34):
Yep.
Kate (16:34):
And so, most of that representation is, like, oh my
god.
I want to get my period or I'mscared of getting my period and
then I get my period, my friendgets her period, like, and it's
all about this liketransformation from girl into
woman.
It's all about this, like, andof course it's there's a lot of
period stuff in horror moviesas like a a like you know
(16:58):
metaphor fortransformation, like werewolf
movies, sometimes, the girlslike getting her period.
But after, like, past thegetting your period trope
there's almost nothing.
If there's something, it islike oh, someone's on her period
and she's like really a bitch.
(17:18):
She's like really cranky and...
Jennie (17:21):
"I just want chocolate and ice cream."
Kate (17:23):
Yeah, there's like the honestly one of the only
examples of this that I foundrecently was No Strings
Attached, the Ashton Kutcher andNatalie Portman movie, which
was like not that recently.
But there's a scene where sheand her roommates are all like
synced up and getting theirperiods together.
And she's like, don't comeover.
And then he does come over andhe brings cupcakes and a mix CD
(17:44):
of like songs that you couldinterpret as being about
periods.
And they're, like, ew, why areyou here, I told you it's not
safe here.
And, like, it's like supposedto be about how like they're
like he's coming over even he'slike being a good boyfriend
slash hookup partner becausehe's doing this.
And it's, like, shut up.
Also, like, bring them winelike what are you doing?
(18:07):
And, like, put it on thedoorstep and, like, leave. But
it's just about like howunreasonable and horrible and,
like, ridiculous women are whenthey're on their periods and and
then so, if you go beyondgetting your period if you go
beyond PMS or like being on yourperiod and being unreasonable,
(18:28):
there's basically nothing unlessyou get into like trying to get
pregnant that's really the onlynarrative like situation where
mainstream TV seems to be okaywith like talking about periods.
On Friends, even though Friendsis a show that ran for, what,
(18:48):
12 seasons?
About friends living together.
They're literally livingtogether.
The main set piece is thegirl's apartment, the women's
apartment, and that's two womenliving together and then a third
woman who is there all thetime.
They're in the bath together.
They're in and out of eachother's bathrooms.
(19:09):
Not once are periods mentioneduntil Courtney Cox's character
is trying to and even then it'slike ovulating.
They don't really talk aboutperiods, which is hilarious
because Courtney Cox wasactually the first person to say
period on TV in 1989 in aTampax commercial because up
(19:33):
until 1989, it was actually likeillegal.
It was they would not airanything that said the word
period.
And so, they changed that.
And Tampax had this commercialwhere Courtney Cox was the first
person to say period on TV.
Courtney Cox said the wordperiod in a tampon commercial.
And that was this like bigmoment.
And then she went on to Friendsand didn't get to say didn't
(19:55):
get to talk about periods orhave any period representation
until she was trying to getpregnant.
So, yeah, absolutely wild.
Jennie (20:04):
And like, clearly no period pain or very little, if
any, right?
Kate (20:09):
And that's really the, like, yes, it would be amazing
to see more like, like showsthat shows or movies that just
like treat periods as, like,right they happen, sometimes
you're on it and you're justlike yeah it could be a minor
thing that comes into theequation but period pain is
really that there is one show iwant to shout out that is the
one show in my research that Ifound that like specifically
(20:32):
shows uh someone getting periodcramps so bad they have to go to
the hospital.
And it is a show called Braceface it's from 2001 and the main
character gets her period whileshe's like roller skating with
the guy she has a crush on andhas cramps she has really bad
cramps and doesn't know what'sgoing on and this guy she has a
(20:53):
crush on calls an ambulancebecause she can't like get up
and she ends up going to the ERwhere a nurse is like oh, if you
haven't had the cramps beforethey can take you by surprise
and then they just send herhome.
And she's like I'm soembarrassed and it's like okay
on one hand yeah that happenslike I've been to the ER for my
cramps multiple times and sothat's really exciting to see
(21:17):
that representation.
What's less exciting to see isa nurse like is literally like
medical gaslighting happening onscreen in a cartoon where
they're like they're like yeahyou idiot you came to the ER for
cramps, how dumb are you?
And then she goes home and hermom's just like oh, it's okay
(21:37):
like and it and brings herchocolate and it's like: is
nobody gonna talk about the factthat her cramps were so bad she
couldn't stand up and went tothe ER?
Like, we're not going to talkabout that or like what we're
going to do about that?
Anyway.
Jen (21:54):
Yeah, it's just wild. Like, I just don't remember ever,
like, a conversation or, like,this is how bad, like, no
perception of how bad or not badcramps should be or [what] is
normal or whatever, like...
Kate (22:09):
No, well and that's what that's the damage of, like,
having this total void ofrepresentation of
like, if we don’t see…we base arguably too much of our reality, judging what is normal and what is not normal on what we see on TV and what we see in our friend groups, socially, right in front of us. And if we don’t see representation of this is what is a normal amount of period pain and this is serious and this is medical, you need to go get help for this and figure this out.
What are we supposed to thinkother than like, oh, there's
(22:48):
something weird and wrong withme specifically and no one else
experiences this.
And there's the other side ofthe coin, which is that a lot of
the conditions that causesevere period pain have a
genetic component, which meanswhat tends to happen is that you
as a teenager will, like,unexpectedly have really bad
(23:11):
period pain.
You'll talk to the one personin your life that you feel safe
going to and talking openlyabout this your mom if you have
a mom if your mom is in yourlife and is supportive and you
go like this is really bad likewhat's the deal with this should
I go to the doctor and the mommight be like no, that's like
normal, that's just what aperiod is because that's what
(23:32):
she has always experienced.
That's what her mom told her.
And there's no conflictinginformation, it's like it's such
a void of information thatthat's the one source of what is
normal that you have and so,you just internalize that of,
like, oh I guess I'm a wimp ifI'm having trouble handling this
and this is just normal and Ijust have to deal with it.
(23:53):
So, it's a double-edged, it's adouble-edged sword, really.
Jennie (23:56):
Yeah, like, and it just- if you this is the only way
you've ever experienced yourperiod, you would assume that
this is just how it is.
Like, there are just so manythings, like, where it's like
this is how it is.
Like, I just assume and, like,you hear other people talking
about it but this is yourexperience and so you're like
(24:17):
oh, they're just explaining itdifferently I mean the closest
to that I can come is likereading some, like, I was like
scrolling on the phone in bedand pulled up like a I don't
remember where the articlewas...
talking about this person andhe couldn't visualize, like,
(24:40):
close your eyes, picture a redball.
Like, can you actually see ared ball?
Is it red?
Is it- do you see like in gray?
Do you see nothing?
Kate (24:48):
Right.
Jennie (24:49):
And so, I was like reading the story about this guy
and this wild thing and I'mlike wait a minute what do you
mean wild thing?
Isn't that what everybodyexperiences, like, I thought
people were just like when theysay they like can see a movie,
like, when they're reading abook or whatever and like can
really visualize this I justassumed you were being like
(25:09):
talking in metaphors.
No, you actually can visualizethings?
Like, I didn't realize that,like, this was different than
other people's experiencebecause this is all my
experience ever had been.
Kate (25:24):
Right, there's so much in life that is subjective, like,
even the experience of pain likeyou know we have like the one
to ten pain scale but like noone can really know what you're
feeling and, like, even the oneto ten pain scale it's totally
dependent on like how muchexperience with pain you've had
before, like, so many factorsabout your nervous system that
(25:45):
come into play.
And so it's just, like, wecan't ever know what someone
else is feeling actually andit's- I think it's so cool
because as human beings it makesus try though we keep wanting.
It's so cool that we want totry to understand someone else's
experience so much that we,like, create language that we
(26:08):
create art that we create allthese things to just try to be
like this is what it's like inmy head this is what I see this
is what I want you to know and Iand they want to know.
And so, like, that's that's socool.
But also it's like tragic thatwe'll never really get to the
point where we know exactly whatsomeone else is experiencing.
(26:28):
But, like, shifting gears atiny bit, I did so much research
for this podcast to try toanswer some of my own questions.
And I did a bunch of researchinto the history of women's
health care because I was kindof like, like, how has it always
been this bad?
Has it always been this hard toget information?
Is this the best it's everbeen?
(26:51):
Probably.
Well, sadly, no.
I think in terms oftechnologically, yeah, it's so
much better.
For endometriosis, I'm so gladI'm alive right now and not 200
years ago because we can dolaparoscopic surgery and
(27:11):
actually kind of cure myendometriosis as much as is
possible.
There is no real cure, but wecan treat it.
And that has never been truebefore in the history of
humankind.
But 200 years ago, there was atotally different setup for
women's health, where we hadlike-
Jennie (27:31):
Midwives.
Kate (27:32):
It was community care, first of all, and it would be,
there would be a village wisewoman, a midwife, somebody who
had extensive knowledge of plantmedicine, and who had a lot of
experience birthing baby dealingwith like all kinds of
reproductive health care.
And so, you would be reliantnot just on that one person with
all this knowledge but on yourwhole community of other people
(27:55):
and people would know when youneeded support, you would be,
like, joining together to do alot of things to birth babies
together so all the women inyour community would have some
experience with this.
And it was a project of, like,all the women in the community
to take care of each other andto pass information along with
each other.
And Western medicinecame along and it was very much
(28:17):
based on Greek, like Greekwritings in the 1800s.
And the Greek writings wereincorrect about a lot of things
because they did not reallyunderstand how a human body
works.
They got a lot of stuff right,but they got a lot of stuff
wrong.
And so, all of this, like,women's health care done by
community and by other women wasbasically outlawed and banned
(28:41):
because they realized theentirely male professionals.
of physicians or doctorsrealized that there was this
whole half of a population thatthat they were missing out on as
customers.
And so it became instead ofcommunity care, it became a fee
for service and it didn't work.
And the the maternal deathrates were so much higher with
(29:04):
like with these Westernphysicians than with like
community care, among otherwomen.
Yeah, it was it's a whole longstory that like we cannot get
into.
But it is fascinating.
Jennie (29:16):
Yeah. And like abortion bans go back into that time
frame, too, right?
Like these are interrelated,interconnected stories.
Kate (29:22):
Well, and abortions weren't even seen as like
separate from other health care.
It was just like, yeah, you getto do whatever you want with
your mind.
Like, it took a long time forlike churches and, like, male
doctors to even like know thatthat was something women were
doing.
Yeah.
So...
this is all to say the bestoutcomes for women in health
(29:46):
happen when we shareinformation.
That is the only way becauselike the system, the medical
care system in this country, inany Western country, it's not
built for us.
It is literally like, like itis built for male bodies, the
same as seatbelts in cars arebuilt for male bodies.
It is exactly the same when wego to the doctor, that doctor
(30:09):
has studied 80 to 90% malebodies in their medical school
education, in the studies thatthey're reading.
Whether that doctor is a womanor a man, they are in a system
that is built for male bodiesand doesn't really study or ask
a lot of questions about femalebodies.
(30:30):
So, the way that we get thebest healthcare is if we share
information with each other;share providers that work for
each other; share diagnoses thatwe've gotten that might apply
to somebody else; share waysthat we take care of ourselves;
things that are normal and notnormal; things that like
questions that we've gottenanswered after a ton of effort.
(30:52):
And we want to share thoseanswers with other people so
that they're in a bettersituation than we were.
That's how and then a lot oftimes we get that information
from our community.
And then we go to the doctorwith an agenda and we say, this
is what I want this test done.
I want to try this medication.
I want to get checked for this.
And we have to lead that.
(31:12):
And the doctor just has to belike a tool that we use to get
that done, which is not howwe're raised to think of medical
providers.
We are raised to think of themas like authorities and like we
bring our body there and theytell us what's happening with
our body and that we have to getout of that mindset because
that is literally killing us.
Jennie (31:30):
Yeah.
I mean, that just makes methink of like so many things
that we definitely don't havetime to go into.
So, like, put a pin in, like,all the things.
Yeah.
And I think you already mostlyanswer this question but like:
what would you like to see likegoing forward?
Kate (31:44):
oh my god I mean I would love to see TV shows like...
the amount of shame and likepotential for misunderstanding
around periods and talking aboutperiods, like, the amount of
embarrassment involved like howhave we not like fully explored
this trope in sitcoms?
It's so dumb that we haven't.
(32:05):
Of like misunderstandings,like, oh crazy runarounds of,
like, all this stuff plays intocomedy and would be so, and it's
like half the audiences of TVshows have experience with
menstruation.
Like why wouldn't you, whywouldn't you explore that?
But the taboo is strong enoughto like, to make people leave it
(32:29):
alone.
Jennie (32:30):
Well, and like representation, like in the
writer's room and like havingthe representation at all
levels, because if you havepeople who don't have uteruses
who are represented, thenstories about people with
uteruses experiencing periodsand period pain are not going to
come up because they aren'tbeing brought in.
Kate (32:48):
Exactly.
Yep.
That's a big part of thepuzzle.
So I want to see a lot more ofthat, a lot more representation,
but not in like a like afterschool special kind of way.
Not in like a this is a periodepisode or like, oh, we're going
to like.
Jennie (33:05):
I'm thinking, like, drinks after work and like, oh,
it was such a shitty day, like,I had such bad cramps, but I had
this really big meeting andlike, I had to like focus, like-
Kate (33:14):
Exactly.
Jennie (33:15):
Just, like, your life.
Exactly. Yeah.
So like just that brought intomore shows as just a, a part of
life, like Broad City did it sowell.
I mean, I love that show, butthere's one scene where they're
going on a flight and Ilana haspants on that have a period
stain and she's like smugglingweed up her vagina through
(33:38):
security.
And Abby is like oh no Ilana,you have a period stain and
she's like I know it's a redherring when the drug-sniffing
dog sniffs my crotch I can justbe like oh this dog and so a
drug sniffing dog like does getup in her crotch and she's like
this dog is sexually assaultingme I have my period and
(33:59):
everybody like leaves her alone.
I'm, like, that's amazingbecause the point is not that
she has her period, the point isthat like we all have a pair of
like blood stained jeans and,like, what a hilarious use for
them.
What a good way to like usethat as comedy where like the
point is not the period.
It's just like, yeah, this ispart of life.
(34:20):
So, that is like, I want moreof that kind of stuff.
And I want more resources forpeople who have severe period
pain and are googling like badcramps, like cramps that make me
throw up.
Like I'm hoping, my hope withCramped, my podcast, is that I
went through this 22 year oftotal void of information where
(34:42):
like I gave up for a long timeand I just hoped it wouldn't
happen and then every time ithappened I just dealt with it
and moved on with my life and Idon't want anyone else to ever
be in that situation and, like,maybe you know depending on what
the condition is like maybethere's no cure and maybe you
(35:02):
can't like fix it but you can atleast know that you can at
least know that you're notalone.
You're not the only one dealingwith this, and you deserve to
be taken seriously by yourdoctors to find out what's going
on, to have some answers andsome explanations and some
options.
So that's what I would like.
I would like for informationabout this, accurate information
(35:25):
about this and community aroundthis to be so available.
No one ever feels alone or likeneglected or isolated in this
ever again.
That sounds wonderful.
And like such a basic fuckingdignity ask.
Kate (35:43):
Well, and it's 90% of people who menstruate experience
some kind of pain withmenstruation and up to 30%
because we don't even have gooddata about this but up to 30% of
people who menstruateexperience severe menstrual
pain, meaning they can't goabout their day to day their
normal day to day routine whenthey have their period.
(36:04):
And that 30% of people who aremenstruating is such an enormous
amount of people that it'scrazy that so many of us feel so
alone.
We are the opposite of alone.
And yet this stigma against it,this lack of representation
makes us feel alone and cuts usoff from information that could
(36:25):
help us.
Jennie (36:25):
Okay.
So I always like to end thepodcast talking about actions
and what can the audience do?
So what can our audience do?
Kate (36:33):
I mean, the solution for this is obviously like many
fold.
There are many, many aspects ofthis, only some of which we
have control over individually.
But the biggest thing that youcan do is talk about your
periods and your period pain, ifyou have it, to other people.
And I mean, I'm talkingone-on-one, I'm talking on
(36:54):
podcasts, I'm talking in workmeetings, like whatever it is.
And obviously, every person isgoing to have a different
context for this, a differentexperience, a different level of
comfort.
But I really encourage people-I actually have an episode
about how to talk about your period pain coming out this week.
Jennie (37:09):
Yay!
So, people can go to the feed and check that out. But the thing that really broke it down for me was asking myself the question (37:09):
who does it benefit when I don’t talk about my period? Because if I really look at that, it’s not me. At best, not talking about my period could help me avoid awkward situations or people thinking I’m gross or something.
But, like, ultimately on amacro scale in my life, not
(37:45):
talking about periods keeps meisolated, keeps me from
connecting with other people whohave similar experiences and
have information that could helpme.
And so, it really only hurts meand it only helps basically
like immature men to not be in aslightly uncomfortable
situation.
So, it's between, like, myhealth and my life and some,
(38:08):
like, shitty guy feelingslightly uncomfortable and he
gets his way all the time sothat really helped me just be
like oh, I won't I'm not doingthis guy any favors.
But the biggest difference hasbeen I have started hosting what
I call clam bakes at my housewhere I invite like between 6
(38:32):
and 12 just women that I knowfrom all different like contacts
they don't all know each otherI just send out a mass invite
like once a month and I say likecome over for a clam bake they
come over.
I do not serve clams, I don'teven, I don't serve anything.
I say, like, you could bringsomething if you want I'll have
like whatever snacks are in myhouse out, whatever booze is in
(38:52):
my house will be out but justlike come and we'll talk about
hormones, we'll talk aboutperiods, we'll talk about mental
health, we'll talk about likewhatever it is we're going
through and we all just like sitdown wearing comfy clothes and
we go around and it's like whatare you dealing with what's
happened recently.
Like, some people are dealingwith trying to get pregnant.
(39:12):
Some people are dealing withlike a birth control that is
giving them wild symptoms.
Some people are dealing with,like, horrible periods.
So like, it's all different.
I had one, one friend was overand had brain surgery a few
months ago, and her period hasbeen totally different since she
got brain surgery.
And she's like, I don't knowwhat that's about.
(39:33):
So, we just talk about it.
And a lot of times someone willhave a problem that someone
else will would be like oh, justgo here or like oh, I saw this
person for this, like, here I'llgive you their number and so
it's and we had somebody who wasinterested in pelvic floor
physical therapy for theirperiod pain but had never been
didn't really know what it wasabout.
(39:53):
So, those of us who had been topelvic floor physical therapy
just like told what ourexperiences was, what it was,
like, how- was it weird?
Like, so just that kind ofinformation sharing you could
feel as the evening goes on youfeel people getting like so
excited and relieved and likepeople hung out way after we
(40:17):
like closed the officialdiscussion and it- "official,"
it was it's pretty low key, butI was just like okay I want to
like just hang out now andpeople hung out for like two
hours longer just talking abouttheir period and like going and
finding someone who had saidsomething in the group
discussion that they reallyloved and like and the really
cool thing.
I also I just interviewed adoctor named, so Dr.
(40:37):
Laura Payne P.A.
is a clinical psychologist anda researcher at Harvard.
And she just published a bookcalled Psychosocial
Interventions for Chronic Painin Women and Girls, which is
like such a catchy title.
But her research is about likethe psychological experience of
pain.
And she focuses on pain thatspecifically affects women and
(41:01):
girls.
So a lot of menstrual pain.
And what her research has foundis that literally just talking
about your period pain withother people makes you rate your
period pain lower for up to ayear afterwards.
This is, like, a full-on likestudy that is published in the
NIH so like it's it's real andthat doesn't that just make the
(41:25):
injustice of this taboo abouttalking about our periods that
much more evil yeah because likeif we just got to talk about
them more they wouldn't hurt asmuch but like let us talk about
our periods.
Jenni (41:40):
That feels like the place to end.
Like, let us talk about ourperiods.
Kate (41:43):
Well, and of course no one's gonna let us and we just
have to do it and you know i'm ayapper and I don't really give
a shit what anybody thinks of meso I have tried to lead by
example um but truly yeah talkabout your periods.
It will make yours hurt lessand you will find you will get
so much more information.
You will find community aroundit.
You will want to check in onyour friends now that you know
(42:06):
they get they get period pain.
I just brought my friend- myfriend just had a um, like, I
forget what you call it, it'sthe a colposcopy uh where they
like take a chunk out of yourcervix to test for um abnormal
cells after you get a pap smear.
And she was like oh, I'm goingto do this it's gonna hurt so
bad.
And I was like okay great, I'llbring you a care package with
(42:29):
like some painkillers and somelike Gatorade and some like fun
snacks and then we just likehung out on her on her couch and
chatted and it's like we get totake care of each other like
that, but we have to talk aboutthis.
Jennie (42:44):
Kate, this was such a delightful conversation.
I feel like I could talk to youforever about it.
But being respectful of yourtime, thank you so much for
being here.
Kate (42:52):
Thank you so much for having me.
And I will literally come talkon anybody's podcast or just
anybody's living room aboutperiods.
So, thank you.
Jennie (43:01):
Okay, y'all.
I hope you enjoyed myconversation with Kate.
I had so much fun talking toher about periods and cramps and
all things related to uteruses.
It was a lot of fun, and it wasjust great to get to talk to
her.
And like we say, let's talkabout our periods more.
It was wonderful.
So with that, I will seeeverybody next week.
(43:24):
If you have any questions,comments, or topics you would
like us to cover, always feelfree to shoot me an email.
You can reach me at jennie@reprosfightback.com, or you can
find us on social media.
We're at rePROs Fight Back onFacebook and Twitter or
@reprosfb on Instagram.
If you love our podcast andwant to make sure more people
(43:46):
find it, take the time to rateand review us on your favorite
podcast platform.
Or if you want to make sure tosupport the podcast, you can
also donate on our website atreprosfightback.com.
Thanks all.
Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, a podcast on all things
related to sexual andreproductive health, rights, and
justice.
Hi, rePROs.
How's everybody doing?
I'm your host, Jennie Wetter,and my pronouns are she/ her.
So y'all, it has been oddlynice here in DC still.
There was one or two days whereit got really hot, but it's
(00:29):
been in the 70s and 80s and justgorgeous.
I've had my windows open for,like, I don't know, like, two
solid weeks now and it, like,rained for a little bit, like,
last Saturday or Sunday and so Ihad to close the windows
because it was like raining in.
And the look of betrayal onLuna's face; she was so pissed
(00:54):
that I had to close the windowson her.
She was just so angry and Ifelt really bad because she just
loves sitting in the window somuch but she was like sitting
there and, like, staring at thewindow and then looking at me
and looking at the window.
And she was just really upset.
So, she was very happy when wewere able to be opened again.
(01:15):
And she's coping at the momentbecause I had to have them
closed for the interview for thepodcast.
So, you couldn't hear all theoutside noise.
But it's so funny becausethat's just like her happy
place.
And so, since she had it backafter having air conditioning
and having to have the windowsclosed like for the summer, she
has been so excited to have themopen again for this little
(01:37):
streak.
Let's see what else has beengoing on...
oh I have been trying to findmy new like I'm watching TV and
I need something else to doproject and so I started a cross
stitch project.
I haven't cross stitched in,like, I don't know since I want
to say since I was a kid butmaybe I did like a small project
(02:00):
I feel like maybe I did like alittle like quote or something a
couple years ago I thinksomebody got me like a Golden
Girls cross stitch kit which Ithink I did like one thing out
of it so I started a new crossstitch project and it has been
relaxing to like yes I amsitting on the couch watching TV
and doing nothing but now I'mnot doing nothing because I am
(02:23):
doing cross stitch and I can seeprogress I am jabbing a needle
into something thousands oftimes and working on a project
and working out stress and ithas been lovely and I also
ordered some yarn for someknitting projects so I will have
(02:43):
lots of things to keep meentertained for having downtime
which I'm looking forward to.
It's nice to have some likecrafty projects to work on.
I think I'm going to stop therebecause we have a little bit of
a longer interview today that Iam so excited about we are
going to talk about periods andperiod patterns pain.
(03:04):
And honestly, there isn't abetter person to come on and do
that with than Kate HelenDowney, who is the host of the
podcast CRAMPED, which youshould also definitely check
out.
I will be on an episode of herpodcast in the near future as
well, but definitely make sureto check out CRAMPED.
As you will hear today, Kate iswonderful and you definitely
(03:24):
don't want to miss out on it.
So with that, let's go to myinterview with Kate.
Hi, Kate.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Kate (03:32):
Hi, Jennie.
It's so good to be here.
Thank you for having me.
Jennie (03:35):
I'm so excited.
We did an episode of CRAMPEDwhere that'll be coming out in
the near-ish future.
Yes.
But let's talk about CRAMPEDhere for a second.
Can you, one, introduceyourself, but two, let's talk,
tell us about CRAMPED.
Kate (03:51):
My name is Kate Helen Downey.
I am the host and producer ofthe podcast CRAMPED, and that is
a deep dive into my search foranswers to my severe period
pain.
Sometimes I find answers, butmore often we explore why it's
so hard to find answers or whythe answers aren't there at all,
(04:12):
especially considering howcommon severe period pain is.
Jennie (04:17):
Oh man, that just makes me think of, I just read a book
recently that feels like it gotall into the data gap around
women and stuff, which isInvisible Women: Exposing Data Bias in a World Designed for Men.
Oh, my God.
Kate (04:34):
Oh my God.
Yes.
I read that as as research lastyear for the first 10 episodes.
And yep, it I never have I beenso enraged reading.
Jennie (04:45):
There was so much there were like a lot of things I
knew, but like there were somany examples in there that I
was just like, Jesus Christ.
Kate (04:53):
Yeah.
And she's not even completelyfocusing on medical stuff.
Like the seatbelt thing was thethe huge like metaphor from
that of just like oh seatbelts;all crash test dummies are
designed to, like, malesaverages, male specifications
and so, like, as women when weput on our seatbelts we are less
safe than men because the datathat is used to develop the
(05:17):
safety technology is male data.
Jennie (05:20):
And, like, even when they do women it's just scaled
down men.
Kate (05:23):
Yeah, they're like, oh it doesn't matter that your weight
distribution is totallydifferent, we're just gonna,
like (05:29):
what if you were shorter men?
Jennie (05:32):
Yeah, great, thanks.
Awesome.
Okay, and I loved like the sizerange.
I was like okay, but I'm fivefoot I fall outside of all of
that.
Awesome, thanks guys.
Kate (05:41):
Yep, yep.
I'm 5'2'', so nothing's safefor me.
Countertops?
Not designed for us.
Jennie (05:50):
No.
Like shelves, like, I obviouslyhave all the stools because I
can't reach anything on like...
the second shelf is about it.
And then it's like, okay.
Kate (06:00):
Yep.
Rude.
It's rude.
Jennie (06:03):
Short girl life, right?
Okay.
So, why do we need totalk about periods?
I'm so glad you asked.
I've spent the last year and ahalf, like, exclusively talking
about periods pretty much.
And that is very different thanthe rest of my life.
So first of all, I spent 22years in severe period pain
(06:26):
almost every month, likethrowing up, passing out, going
to the emergency room.
And I never, until last year, Ihad no diagnosis, no effective
treatment.
I would talk to everygynecologist I went to, every
PCP I went to.
I would say, hey, I'm havingthis problem.
It's like my biggest medicalproblem.
Please help.
(06:47):
Please help me figure outwhat's going on.
Like, this has been true sinceI started my period when I was
14, what's happening?
Help me.
And they would do anultrasound.
It would come back normal.
And they'd go, ah, weird.
Everything's normal.
You're fine.
Like, no further questions.
And I was still in pain, stillhaving all these problems with
(07:08):
it.
And when I was a teenager, I,you know, didn't talk to other
people about it.
Or I would try.
And I would say to my friends,like, hey, do you guys get
really bad cramps?
And they would be like, yeah,of course.
Like,cramps suck. They're the worst. But we didn't know that we were- I didn't have words for what I was experiencing.
You were, like, talking about separate things, right?
(07:31):
Yeah, and I was like, oh, I guess...
Like, these cramps kinda suck.
Yeah, but what was I supposed to think as a 15, 16 year old except, like, oh,I
guess I'm really bad at handling this and everybody else just takes it in stride, and there's something wrong with me that doctors can't tell me what's going on, like nobody takes me seriously. Nobody asks me questions about this.
This situation that, like, ifit was anything else, I would be
(07:53):
rushed to the hospital foremergency surgery.
But as soon as someone hearsI'm on my period, they're like,
oh, well, what are you talkingto me for?
Icky girl stuff.
Kate (08:02):
Yeah.
Go lie down.
Don't bother me about it.
So, after 22 years, I finallywent to an endometriosis
specialist and I got diagnosedwith endometriosis, which one in
10 people with a uterus has.
And it causes severe menstrualpain as well as like GI issues,
tons of other like inflammatoryissues, immune issues, chronic
(08:22):
pelvic pain.
It causes all this stuffbecause it takes an average of
seven to 10 years in the US forsomeone to get diagnosed with
it, despite one in 10 peoplewith a uterus having it.
That's a WHO estimation.
That's crazy.
If you went to a spinal surgeonor a spinal doctor and they
(08:44):
were like, oh, we don't knowwhat's wrong with you.
And then you found out you hada thing that one in 10 people
with spinal You'd be like, howis that doctor not know about
that?
Like, why is this not taught inmedical school if one in 10 of
their patients is going to haveit?
Totally insane.
And that's just one conditionthat causes severe menstrual
(09:06):
pain.
There's not one thing thatcauses severe menstrual pain.
It can be a myriad of things.
And yet it is incredibly hardto get treatment for it.
And it screws up your life.
It really, really impacts yourlife.
Yeah, absolutely.
Now they're actually findingthat like they may be physically
(09:52):
connected, like theinflammation from the severe
period pain may also becontributing to depression or
anxiety.
So anyway, that's a long way ofsaying we need to talk about
these things.
We need to talk about severeperiod pain because it is often
a symptom of something else thatis wrong that is not getting
attention.
And we need to talk aboutperiod pain because so many of
(10:15):
us are in period pain so much ofthe time.
And so, we should be talkingabout it.
Jennie (10:22):
Well, it just like takes me back to like sex ed and,
like, the information youclearly don't get.
Like, at least I know I clearlydid not get like it was very
much like, oh, yeah, no, this isthis is what happens.
And like PMS and like noexplanation of like, hey, if
(10:42):
this happens, like this might besomething to worry about or
like this whole other range ofthings that can happen around
your period.
Kate (10:49):
Oh, my God.
Not just, you're gonna be moody and want chocolate and maybe have some little baby cramps; no, like, okay, but here are some other things that your body could be going through. And it took me until I got a period tracking app to be like huh, this thing seems to always happen around this time of the month. They must be related.
(11:19):
Yeah, well, so much period education such as it exists, if you get any, it is often really focused onhygiene on which is important
like that's that's alsoimportant but so much of it is
focused on, like, how to makesure no one else ever knows that
you're on your period.
What products to use to likecover it up how to not smell bad
how I mean I the first thing Iremember from sex ed we did like
(11:42):
an early sex ed where theybasically just gave us all
deodorant in like fourth orfifth grade and they like little
deodorant samples and they werelike for the love of god please
start wearing deodorant.
And so so much of periodeducation isn't actually about
like here's the changes yourbody is going through and here's
like information to help younavigate that or help you be
(12:05):
healthy as you go through thatand when to know that
something's wrong so much of itis like it and it's very clearly
communicated to us is likedon't make this anybody else's
problem don't make anyone elseuncomfortable.
Jennie (12:19):
Shame.
Kate (12:20):
Feel shame.
Yes.
Here's how to cover this up.
And like, oh, we're teachingyou about this.
We're being really open aboutthis.
But it's like what you're beingopen about is how to cover it
up.
And explaining to us that weshould feel shame, that we
should be embarrassed aboutthis, that we should never
(12:41):
reveal that it's happening tous.
And that's really messed up.
And it starts really early.
Jennie (12:47):
Yeah, like, I feel like I remember like there was a
period of time where they werelike and here are tampon
wrappers or pad wrappers thatcrinkle less so, like, nobody
knows.
Kate (13:01):
I feel like there were tampon wrappers that, like, were
disguised to look like markersor something and they were
marketed to teenagers so thatyou could like keep them in your
backpack and no one would,like, know it was a tampon if
they happen to see it and it'slike-
Jennie (13:14):
Oh man, I missed that one, but that would not
surprise me at all.
Kate (13:17):
I might have made it up, that might have been
a fever dream.
But like, yeah, it's, yeah, I,and I, it's also so, it's so,
it's such bad timing, because weget our periods at the time
when we most desperately don'twant to be different from
anybody else.
Yeah, for sure.
(13:48):
And the biological fact is that we're all gonna get our periods at slightly different times within a range, you know, over the course of a few years. We’re all gonna have different symptoms and experiences. And the only thingthat's important to us is that
like we just don't want to bedifferent from anybody else and
so we shut that we like don'ttalk about anything that even if
it's like a problem orconcerning we're like never
mind, nothing, no.
Jennie (14:02):
That just makes me think so for my like I don't know
13th or 14th birthday I don'tremember I really wanted white
pants— obviously, as you wouldright, yeah?
Yes.
The early aughts if we'resimilar ages.
(14:23):
No, that's probably not theright choice.
And obviously, I was like, mygodmother was like, let's go
shopping for your birthday.
And I was like, I want whitepants.
They were like off-white.
Kate (14:37):
It's also so specific at that age.
You need to have something sospecific, like the social, like
everyone in your class.
For me, it was the three-stripeAdidas.
Oh, yes.
desperately wanted that, and mymom bought me like the four
stripe Walmart knockoffs and Iwas like no that I will be
outcast.
Jennie (14:57):
I got my first period wearing them and like I mean
obviously that was the wholepoint of that story was, like,
my mom was like and remember,this is why I said no.
Kate (15:10):
But, you know, that was- that's an irresistible thing for
the universe.
You get white pants, you'regonna get your period.
Jennie (15:17):
I mean, I obviously wanted say it was like the first
time I wore them, but thatmight not be true.
That might just be like themyth building in my head.
Kate (15:26):
The narrative, the force of narrative exerting itself.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jennie (15:30):
Okay.
So that leads me to think abouthow periods and period pain are
or aren't represented in themedia.
Cause like, this is how likeyou can deal with stigma and
things can get socialized or youcan learn about some of these
things.
Kate (15:44):
Yeah.
Jennie (15:45):
What do you see?
Kate (15:46):
Very little.
You see very little.
In terms of periodrepresentation in general, I
would say 95% or let's say 90%of period representation in
movies and TV is young girlsgetting their period for the
(16:06):
first time.
My girl, what's that one withRosie O'Donnell in it about the
girls that all grew up together?
I can't remember the name, thename has like nothing to do with
the movie it's just it's aboutit's like a coming of age story
of a group of girls who arefriends and they are talking
about getting their period andand it's always this like big...
(16:27):
Oh!Are You There God? It's Me, Margaret.
That's mostly a book up until acouple years ago but now it's a
movie.
Jennie (16:34):
Yep.
Kate (16:34):
And so, most of that representation is, like, oh my
god.
I want to get my period or I'mscared of getting my period and
then I get my period, my friendgets her period, like, and it's
all about this liketransformation from girl into
woman.
It's all about this, like, andof course it's there's a lot of
period stuff in horror moviesas like a a like you know
(16:58):
metaphor fortransformation, like werewolf
movies, sometimes, the girlslike getting her period.
But after, like, past thegetting your period trope
there's almost nothing.
If there's something, it islike oh, someone's on her period
and she's like really a bitch.
(17:18):
She's like really cranky and...
Jennie (17:21):
"I just want chocolate and ice cream."
Kate (17:23):
Yeah, there's like the honestly one of the only
examples of this that I foundrecently was No Strings
Attached, the Ashton Kutcher andNatalie Portman movie, which
was like not that recently.
But there's a scene where sheand her roommates are all like
synced up and getting theirperiods together.
And she's like, don't comeover.
And then he does come over andhe brings cupcakes and a mix CD
(17:44):
of like songs that you couldinterpret as being about
periods.
And they're, like, ew, why areyou here, I told you it's not
safe here.
And, like, it's like supposedto be about how like they're
like he's coming over even he'slike being a good boyfriend
slash hookup partner becausehe's doing this.
And it's, like, shut up.
Also, like, bring them winelike what are you doing?
(18:07):
And, like, put it on thedoorstep and, like, leave. But
it's just about like howunreasonable and horrible and,
like, ridiculous women are whenthey're on their periods and and
then so, if you go beyondgetting your period if you go
beyond PMS or like being on yourperiod and being unreasonable,
(18:28):
there's basically nothing unlessyou get into like trying to get
pregnant that's really the onlynarrative like situation where
mainstream TV seems to be okaywith like talking about periods.
On Friends, even though Friendsis a show that ran for, what,
(18:48):
12 seasons?
About friends living together.
They're literally livingtogether.
The main set piece is thegirl's apartment, the women's
apartment, and that's two womenliving together and then a third
woman who is there all thetime.
They're in the bath together.
They're in and out of eachother's bathrooms.
(19:09):
Not once are periods mentioneduntil Courtney Cox's character
is trying to and even then it'slike ovulating.
They don't really talk aboutperiods, which is hilarious
because Courtney Cox wasactually the first person to say
period on TV in 1989 in aTampax commercial because up
(19:33):
until 1989, it was actually likeillegal.
It was they would not airanything that said the word
period.
And so, they changed that.
And Tampax had this commercialwhere Courtney Cox was the first
person to say period on TV.
Courtney Cox said the wordperiod in a tampon commercial.
And that was this like bigmoment.
And then she went on to Friendsand didn't get to say didn't
(19:55):
get to talk about periods orhave any period representation
until she was trying to getpregnant.
So, yeah, absolutely wild.
Jennie (20:04):
And like, clearly no period pain or very little, if
any, right?
Kate (20:09):
And that's really the, like, yes, it would be amazing
to see more like, like showsthat shows or movies that just
like treat periods as, like,right they happen, sometimes
you're on it and you're justlike yeah it could be a minor
thing that comes into theequation but period pain is
really that there is one show iwant to shout out that is the
one show in my research that Ifound that like specifically
(20:32):
shows uh someone getting periodcramps so bad they have to go to
the hospital.
And it is a show called Braceface it's from 2001 and the main
character gets her period whileshe's like roller skating with
the guy she has a crush on andhas cramps she has really bad
cramps and doesn't know what'sgoing on and this guy she has a
(20:53):
crush on calls an ambulancebecause she can't like get up
and she ends up going to the ERwhere a nurse is like oh, if you
haven't had the cramps beforethey can take you by surprise
and then they just send herhome.
And she's like I'm soembarrassed and it's like okay
on one hand yeah that happenslike I've been to the ER for my
cramps multiple times and sothat's really exciting to see
(21:17):
that representation.
What's less exciting to see isa nurse like is literally like
medical gaslighting happening onscreen in a cartoon where
they're like they're like yeahyou idiot you came to the ER for
cramps, how dumb are you?
And then she goes home and hermom's just like oh, it's okay
(21:37):
like and it and brings herchocolate and it's like: is
nobody gonna talk about the factthat her cramps were so bad she
couldn't stand up and went tothe ER?
Like, we're not going to talkabout that or like what we're
going to do about that?
Anyway.
Jen (21:54):
Yeah, it's just wild. Like, I just don't remember ever,
like, a conversation or, like,this is how bad, like, no
perception of how bad or not badcramps should be or [what] is
normal or whatever, like...
Kate (22:09):
No, well and that's what that's the damage of, like,
having this total void ofrepresentation of
like, if we don’t see…we base arguably too much of our reality, judging what is normal and what is not normal on what we see on TV and what we see in our friend groups, socially, right in front of us. And if we don’t see representation of this is what is a normal amount of period pain and this is serious and this is medical, you need to go get help for this and figure this out.
What are we supposed to thinkother than like, oh, there's
(22:48):
something weird and wrong withme specifically and no one else
experiences this.
And there's the other side ofthe coin, which is that a lot of
the conditions that causesevere period pain have a
genetic component, which meanswhat tends to happen is that you
as a teenager will, like,unexpectedly have really bad
(23:11):
period pain.
You'll talk to the one personin your life that you feel safe
going to and talking openlyabout this your mom if you have
a mom if your mom is in yourlife and is supportive and you
go like this is really bad likewhat's the deal with this should
I go to the doctor and the mommight be like no, that's like
normal, that's just what aperiod is because that's what
(23:32):
she has always experienced.
That's what her mom told her.
And there's no conflictinginformation, it's like it's such
a void of information thatthat's the one source of what is
normal that you have and so,you just internalize that of,
like, oh I guess I'm a wimp ifI'm having trouble handling this
and this is just normal and Ijust have to deal with it.
(23:53):
So, it's a double-edged, it's adouble-edged sword, really.
Jennie (23:56):
Yeah, like, and it just- if you this is the only way
you've ever experienced yourperiod, you would assume that
this is just how it is.
Like, there are just so manythings, like, where it's like
this is how it is.
Like, I just assume and, like,you hear other people talking
about it but this is yourexperience and so you're like
(24:17):
oh, they're just explaining itdifferently I mean the closest
to that I can come is likereading some, like, I was like
scrolling on the phone in bedand pulled up like a I don't
remember where the articlewas...
talking about this person andhe couldn't visualize, like,
(24:40):
close your eyes, picture a redball.
Like, can you actually see ared ball?
Is it red?
Is it- do you see like in gray?
Do you see nothing?
Kate (24:48):
Right.
Jennie (24:49):
And so, I was like reading the story about this guy
and this wild thing and I'mlike wait a minute what do you
mean wild thing?
Isn't that what everybodyexperiences, like, I thought
people were just like when theysay they like can see a movie,
like, when they're reading abook or whatever and like can
really visualize this I justassumed you were being like
(25:09):
talking in metaphors.
No, you actually can visualizethings?
Like, I didn't realize that,like, this was different than
other people's experiencebecause this is all my
experience ever had been.
Kate (25:24):
Right, there's so much in life that is subjective, like,
even the experience of pain likeyou know we have like the one
to ten pain scale but like noone can really know what you're
feeling and, like, even the oneto ten pain scale it's totally
dependent on like how muchexperience with pain you've had
before, like, so many factorsabout your nervous system that
(25:45):
come into play.
And so it's just, like, wecan't ever know what someone
else is feeling actually andit's- I think it's so cool
because as human beings it makesus try though we keep wanting.
It's so cool that we want totry to understand someone else's
experience so much that we,like, create language that we
(26:08):
create art that we create allthese things to just try to be
like this is what it's like inmy head this is what I see this
is what I want you to know and Iand they want to know.
And so, like, that's that's socool.
But also it's like tragic thatwe'll never really get to the
point where we know exactly whatsomeone else is experiencing.
(26:28):
But, like, shifting gears atiny bit, I did so much research
for this podcast to try toanswer some of my own questions.
And I did a bunch of researchinto the history of women's
health care because I was kindof like, like, how has it always
been this bad?
Has it always been this hard toget information?
Is this the best it's everbeen?
(26:51):
Probably.
Well, sadly, no.
I think in terms oftechnologically, yeah, it's so
much better.
For endometriosis, I'm so gladI'm alive right now and not 200
years ago because we can dolaparoscopic surgery and
(27:11):
actually kind of cure myendometriosis as much as is
possible.
There is no real cure, but wecan treat it.
And that has never been truebefore in the history of
humankind.
But 200 years ago, there was atotally different setup for
women's health, where we hadlike-
Jennie (27:31):
Midwives.
Kate (27:32):
It was community care, first of all, and it would be,
there would be a village wisewoman, a midwife, somebody who
had extensive knowledge of plantmedicine, and who had a lot of
experience birthing baby dealingwith like all kinds of
reproductive health care.
And so, you would be reliantnot just on that one person with
all this knowledge but on yourwhole community of other people
(27:55):
and people would know when youneeded support, you would be,
like, joining together to do alot of things to birth babies
together so all the women inyour community would have some
experience with this.
And it was a project of, like,all the women in the community
to take care of each other andto pass information along with
each other.
And Western medicinecame along and it was very much
(28:17):
based on Greek, like Greekwritings in the 1800s.
And the Greek writings wereincorrect about a lot of things
because they did not reallyunderstand how a human body
works.
They got a lot of stuff right,but they got a lot of stuff
wrong.
And so, all of this, like,women's health care done by
community and by other women wasbasically outlawed and banned
(28:41):
because they realized theentirely male professionals.
of physicians or doctorsrealized that there was this
whole half of a population thatthat they were missing out on as
customers.
And so it became instead ofcommunity care, it became a fee
for service and it didn't work.
And the the maternal deathrates were so much higher with
(29:04):
like with these Westernphysicians than with like
community care, among otherwomen.
Yeah, it was it's a whole longstory that like we cannot get
into.
But it is fascinating.
Jennie (29:16):
Yeah. And like abortion bans go back into that time
frame, too, right?
Like these are interrelated,interconnected stories.
Kate (29:22):
Well, and abortions weren't even seen as like
separate from other health care.
It was just like, yeah, you getto do whatever you want with
your mind.
Like, it took a long time forlike churches and, like, male
doctors to even like know thatthat was something women were
doing.
Yeah.
So...
this is all to say the bestoutcomes for women in health
(29:46):
happen when we shareinformation.
That is the only way becauselike the system, the medical
care system in this country, inany Western country, it's not
built for us.
It is literally like, like itis built for male bodies, the
same as seatbelts in cars arebuilt for male bodies.
It is exactly the same when wego to the doctor, that doctor
(30:09):
has studied 80 to 90% malebodies in their medical school
education, in the studies thatthey're reading.
Whether that doctor is a womanor a man, they are in a system
that is built for male bodiesand doesn't really study or ask
a lot of questions about femalebodies.
(30:30):
So, the way that we get thebest healthcare is if we share
information with each other;share providers that work for
each other; share diagnoses thatwe've gotten that might apply
to somebody else; share waysthat we take care of ourselves;
things that are normal and notnormal; things that like
questions that we've gottenanswered after a ton of effort.
(30:52):
And we want to share thoseanswers with other people so
that they're in a bettersituation than we were.
That's how and then a lot oftimes we get that information
from our community.
And then we go to the doctorwith an agenda and we say, this
is what I want this test done.
I want to try this medication.
I want to get checked for this.
And we have to lead that.
(31:12):
And the doctor just has to belike a tool that we use to get
that done, which is not howwe're raised to think of medical
providers.
We are raised to think of themas like authorities and like we
bring our body there and theytell us what's happening with
our body and that we have to getout of that mindset because
that is literally killing us.
Jennie (31:30):
Yeah.
I mean, that just makes methink of like so many things
that we definitely don't havetime to go into.
So, like, put a pin in, like,all the things.
Yeah.
And I think you already mostlyanswer this question but like:
what would you like to see likegoing forward?
Kate (31:44):
oh my god I mean I would love to see TV shows like...
the amount of shame and likepotential for misunderstanding
around periods and talking aboutperiods, like, the amount of
embarrassment involved like howhave we not like fully explored
this trope in sitcoms?
It's so dumb that we haven't.
(32:05):
Of like misunderstandings,like, oh crazy runarounds of,
like, all this stuff plays intocomedy and would be so, and it's
like half the audiences of TVshows have experience with
menstruation.
Like why wouldn't you, whywouldn't you explore that?
But the taboo is strong enoughto like, to make people leave it
(32:29):
alone.
Jennie (32:30):
Well, and like representation, like in the
writer's room and like havingthe representation at all
levels, because if you havepeople who don't have uteruses
who are represented, thenstories about people with
uteruses experiencing periodsand period pain are not going to
come up because they aren'tbeing brought in.
Kate (32:48):
Exactly.
Yep.
That's a big part of thepuzzle.
So I want to see a lot more ofthat, a lot more representation,
but not in like a like afterschool special kind of way.
Not in like a this is a periodepisode or like, oh, we're going
to like.
Jennie (33:05):
I'm thinking, like, drinks after work and like, oh,
it was such a shitty day, like,I had such bad cramps, but I had
this really big meeting andlike, I had to like focus, like-
Kate (33:14):
Exactly.
Jennie (33:15):
Just, like, your life.
Exactly. Yeah.
So like just that brought intomore shows as just a, a part of
life, like Broad City did it sowell.
I mean, I love that show, butthere's one scene where they're
going on a flight and Ilana haspants on that have a period
stain and she's like smugglingweed up her vagina through
(33:38):
security.
And Abby is like oh no Ilana,you have a period stain and
she's like I know it's a redherring when the drug-sniffing
dog sniffs my crotch I can justbe like oh this dog and so a
drug sniffing dog like does getup in her crotch and she's like
this dog is sexually assaultingme I have my period and
(33:59):
everybody like leaves her alone.
I'm, like, that's amazingbecause the point is not that
she has her period, the point isthat like we all have a pair of
like blood stained jeans and,like, what a hilarious use for
them.
What a good way to like usethat as comedy where like the
point is not the period.
It's just like, yeah, this ispart of life.
(34:20):
So, that is like, I want moreof that kind of stuff.
And I want more resources forpeople who have severe period
pain and are googling like badcramps, like cramps that make me
throw up.
Like I'm hoping, my hope withCramped, my podcast, is that I
went through this 22 year oftotal void of information where
(34:42):
like I gave up for a long timeand I just hoped it wouldn't
happen and then every time ithappened I just dealt with it
and moved on with my life and Idon't want anyone else to ever
be in that situation and, like,maybe you know depending on what
the condition is like maybethere's no cure and maybe you
(35:02):
can't like fix it but you can atleast know that you can at
least know that you're notalone.
You're not the only one dealingwith this, and you deserve to
be taken seriously by yourdoctors to find out what's going
on, to have some answers andsome explanations and some
options.
So that's what I would like.
I would like for informationabout this, accurate information
(35:25):
about this and community aroundthis to be so available.
No one ever feels alone or likeneglected or isolated in this
ever again.
That sounds wonderful.
And like such a basic fuckingdignity ask.
Kate (35:43):
Well, and it's 90% of people who menstruate experience
some kind of pain withmenstruation and up to 30%
because we don't even have gooddata about this but up to 30% of
people who menstruateexperience severe menstrual
pain, meaning they can't goabout their day to day their
normal day to day routine whenthey have their period.
(36:04):
And that 30% of people who aremenstruating is such an enormous
amount of people that it'scrazy that so many of us feel so
alone.
We are the opposite of alone.
And yet this stigma against it,this lack of representation
makes us feel alone and cuts usoff from information that could
(36:25):
help us.
Jennie (36:25):
Okay.
So I always like to end thepodcast talking about actions
and what can the audience do?
So what can our audience do?
Kate (36:33):
I mean, the solution for this is obviously like many
fold.
There are many, many aspects ofthis, only some of which we
have control over individually.
But the biggest thing that youcan do is talk about your
periods and your period pain, ifyou have it, to other people.
And I mean, I'm talkingone-on-one, I'm talking on
(36:54):
podcasts, I'm talking in workmeetings, like whatever it is.
And obviously, every person isgoing to have a different
context for this, a differentexperience, a different level of
comfort.
But I really encourage people-I actually have an episode
about how to talk about your period pain coming out this week.
Jennie (37:09):
Yay!
So, people can go to the feed and check that out. But the thing that really broke it down for me was asking myself the question (37:09):
who does it benefit when I don’t talk about my period? Because if I really look at that, it’s not me. At best, not talking about my period could help me avoid awkward situations or people thinking I’m gross or something.
But, like, ultimately on amacro scale in my life, not
(37:45):
talking about periods keeps meisolated, keeps me from
connecting with other people whohave similar experiences and
have information that could helpme.
And so, it really only hurts meand it only helps basically
like immature men to not be in aslightly uncomfortable
situation.
So, it's between, like, myhealth and my life and some,
(38:08):
like, shitty guy feelingslightly uncomfortable and he
gets his way all the time sothat really helped me just be
like oh, I won't I'm not doingthis guy any favors.
But the biggest difference hasbeen I have started hosting what
I call clam bakes at my housewhere I invite like between 6
(38:32):
and 12 just women that I knowfrom all different like contacts
they don't all know each otherI just send out a mass invite
like once a month and I say likecome over for a clam bake they
come over.
I do not serve clams, I don'teven, I don't serve anything.
I say, like, you could bringsomething if you want I'll have
like whatever snacks are in myhouse out, whatever booze is in
(38:52):
my house will be out but justlike come and we'll talk about
hormones, we'll talk aboutperiods, we'll talk about mental
health, we'll talk about likewhatever it is we're going
through and we all just like sitdown wearing comfy clothes and
we go around and it's like whatare you dealing with what's
happened recently.
Like, some people are dealingwith trying to get pregnant.
(39:12):
Some people are dealing withlike a birth control that is
giving them wild symptoms.
Some people are dealing with,like, horrible periods.
So like, it's all different.
I had one, one friend was overand had brain surgery a few
months ago, and her period hasbeen totally different since she
got brain surgery.
And she's like, I don't knowwhat that's about.
(39:33):
So, we just talk about it.
And a lot of times someone willhave a problem that someone
else will would be like oh, justgo here or like oh, I saw this
person for this, like, here I'llgive you their number and so
it's and we had somebody who wasinterested in pelvic floor
physical therapy for theirperiod pain but had never been
didn't really know what it wasabout.
(39:53):
So, those of us who had been topelvic floor physical therapy
just like told what ourexperiences was, what it was,
like, how- was it weird?
Like, so just that kind ofinformation sharing you could
feel as the evening goes on youfeel people getting like so
excited and relieved and likepeople hung out way after we
(40:17):
like closed the officialdiscussion and it- "official,"
it was it's pretty low key, butI was just like okay I want to
like just hang out now andpeople hung out for like two
hours longer just talking abouttheir period and like going and
finding someone who had saidsomething in the group
discussion that they reallyloved and like and the really
cool thing.
I also I just interviewed adoctor named, so Dr.
(40:37):
Laura Payne P.A.
is a clinical psychologist anda researcher at Harvard.
And she just published a bookcalled Psychosocial
Interventions for Chronic Painin Women and Girls, which is
like such a catchy title.
But her research is about likethe psychological experience of
pain.
And she focuses on pain thatspecifically affects women and
(41:01):
girls.
So a lot of menstrual pain.
And what her research has foundis that literally just talking
about your period pain withother people makes you rate your
period pain lower for up to ayear afterwards.
This is, like, a full-on likestudy that is published in the
NIH so like it's it's real andthat doesn't that just make the
(41:25):
injustice of this taboo abouttalking about our periods that
much more evil yeah because likeif we just got to talk about
them more they wouldn't hurt asmuch but like let us talk about
our periods.
Jenni (41:40):
That feels like the place to end.
Like, let us talk about ourperiods.
Kate (41:43):
Well, and of course no one's gonna let us and we just
have to do it and you know i'm ayapper and I don't really give
a shit what anybody thinks of meso I have tried to lead by
example um but truly yeah talkabout your periods.
It will make yours hurt lessand you will find you will get
so much more information.
You will find community aroundit.
You will want to check in onyour friends now that you know
(42:06):
they get they get period pain.
I just brought my friend- myfriend just had a um, like, I
forget what you call it, it'sthe a colposcopy uh where they
like take a chunk out of yourcervix to test for um abnormal
cells after you get a pap smear.
And she was like oh, I'm goingto do this it's gonna hurt so
bad.
And I was like okay great, I'llbring you a care package with
(42:29):
like some painkillers and somelike Gatorade and some like fun
snacks and then we just likehung out on her on her couch and
chatted and it's like we get totake care of each other like
that, but we have to talk aboutthis.
Jennie (42:44):
Kate, this was such a delightful conversation.
I feel like I could talk to youforever about it.
But being respectful of yourtime, thank you so much for
being here.
Kate (42:52):
Thank you so much for having me.
And I will literally come talkon anybody's podcast or just
anybody's living room aboutperiods.
So, thank you.
Jennie (43:01):
Okay, y'all.
I hope you enjoyed myconversation with Kate.
I had so much fun talking toher about periods and cramps and
all things related to uteruses.
It was a lot of fun, and it wasjust great to get to talk to
her.
And like we say, let's talkabout our periods more.
It was wonderful.
So with that, I will seeeverybody next week.
(43:24):
If you have any questions,comments, or topics you would
like us to cover, always feelfree to shoot me an email.
You can reach me at jennie@reprosfightback.com, or you can
find us on social media.
We're at rePROs Fight Back onFacebook and Twitter or
@reprosfb on Instagram.
If you love our podcast andwant to make sure more people
(43:46):
find it, take the time to rateand review us on your favorite
podcast platform.
Or if you want to make sure tosupport the podcast, you can
also donate on our website atreprosfightback.com.
Thanks all.
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