July 29, 2025 • 58 mins
“Democrats love to avoid it, and Republicans love to lie about it. But later-abortion care has never been more important.” Amy Littlefield, abortion access correspondent for the Nation and author of the new book Killers of Roe: My Investigation into the Mysterious Death of Abortion Rights, talks to us about her new article for the Nation, What Would It Mean to Defend All Abortions? Garin Marschall, co-founder of Patient Forward, joins to discuss the importance of protecting access to later abortion care.
Amy’s new article in the Nation explores the use of disinformation centered on abortion later in pregnancy. Amy spent time with providers and patients in abortion clinics to capture and share the truth about abortion later in pregnancy—which is that it is a necessary, compassionate form of healthcare provision. A better future must be imagined and provided for those needing an abortion, and especially those in need of an abortion later in pregnancy.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jennie (00:03):
Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, a podcast on all things
related to sexual andreproductive health rights and
justice. [music intro] HirePROs, how's everybody doing?
I'm your host, Jennie Wetter,and my pronouns are she/ her.
So, before we get started,let's just do like a quick bit
of housekeeping.
Just a reminder that welaunched a brand new merch
(00:24):
store.
You can find it on Bonfire ifyou look for rePROs Fight Back
on Bonfire, but also if you goto our show notes, the links
will be there or on socialmedia.
We've had people talking abouthow much they love our various
designs we have had when we havegone out and had stickers and
stuff, so we finally put it onmerch that you could all
purchase.
Y'all, I love everything somuch.
(00:47):
We have t-shirts, we have tanktops, there are mugs, there's
water bottles, there's bags,there's cute little pouches, and
so much more with our cutedesigns that we have had, both
from Liberal Jane and from ourin-house designer.
I love all of them.
I haven't decided what my firstpriority to buy is yet, but I
(01:08):
really need to go and buy myselfsomething because I am so
excited for all of it.
And I can't wait to wear myrePROs Fight Back merch out in
public.
I hope you will do as well.
Like I said, I know a lot ofyou have said you've been
excited and have been hopingthat we would get a merch store
soon so that you could buy someof our stuff.
So it is there now.
(01:28):
It's Bonfire.
And if you look for rePROsFight Back, you'll find us
there.
Otherwise, we will have linksin the show notes and all over
social media.
So we would love it if youwould wear your love for rePROs
Fight Back.
Okay, that's enoughhousekeeping.
We have kind of a long episode.
It's a really good episode, butit is a little long.
So we'll keep the intro alittle shorter.
(01:49):
Well, let's see.
I'll do one highlight and onelow light.
So highlight, the rePROs teamand then the broader Population
Institute team went to aNationals game this week.
It was so much fun.
We took Wednesday.
It was like the perfectbaseball day.
It was like mid 80s, cloudy.
So we weren't in the directsunlight, which was delightful.
(02:11):
As somebody who is very, verywhite and wears her Irish and
English and heritage on herskin, I did not get a sunburn,
which which was prettydelightful.
I wore sunscreen, but that'snot always a guarantee in my
world.
So I felt very lucky to get tospend a day hanging out, not
(02:31):
thinking about all of theterrible things that are
happening and just enjoying somebaseball and some ballpark food
and just having a fun day awayfrom everything.
I mean, the Nats lost, whichwas a bummer, but everything
else was so delightful and sofun.
So I'm glad we were able to dothat.
Okay, so the low light.
We have talked about on thepodcast how The administration
(02:53):
has really gone after and gottenrid of our aid system.
They got rid of USAID.
They have slashed almost all ofthe funding for global health
and development.
Just a little bit remains.
This was all done very suddenlyover the course of this
administration so far, but it'sbeen really done quickly.
(03:13):
just so fast and everything wasshut down that there was food
and commodities that werealready bought and in transit or
in warehouses waiting to begiven out to aid recipients.
And so, now we have all ofthese things that are already
bought and paid for with US taxdollars that are food going to
(03:34):
rot or medical supplies justsitting in warehouses.
So, one of the things that hashappened is that the
administration has decided thatinstead of trying to sell this
or give it to recipients orletting other aid agencies
around the world buy it and useit, $10 million worth of
(03:58):
contraception is going to beburned.
So that is almost $10 millionworth of IUDs and birth control
that instead of getting to thepeople who need it, who can use
it to control their lives, theadministration is going to spend
money to burn it.
Unconscionable.
This is just horrifying.
(04:19):
So all of these cuts were doneunder Doge, under the guise of
"waste," "fraud," and "abuse,"heavy air quotes.
If you want to talk waste,fraud, and abuse, let's look at
$10 million of contraceptionalready bought and paid for.
Instead of selling it tosomebody else who can make sure
it gets to the recipients whoneed it for lifesaving
(04:41):
healthcare, we are going tospend money to burn it.
That is is horrifying.
I just, I can't, I can't getover how egregious this is that
you are, we are actively goingout of our way to ensure that
people are not able to getaccess to this life-saving
healthcare that gives people theability to control their lives,
that we are going to set it onfire instead.
(05:03):
Just horrifying.
So it has not happened yet, atleast as of when I'm recording
this, but it is their intentionto burn it.
There are members of Congresswho are trying to fight this.
Senator Shaheen and SenatorSchatz introduced a bill in the
Senate to try and stop it.
And Representative Meeks,Frankel, and Meng in the House
(05:23):
have introduced a bill to tryand stop it.
It's great to see them fightingback and pushing to prevent
this destruction of commodities.
It's bigger than just familyplanning.
It is looking at other thingslike food that has been running
on shelves and things like thatto try and prevent this waste
and make sure that this aid getsto the people who need it.
Yeah, just terrible, y'all.
(05:44):
Okay, with that, I'll keep itshort and sweet.
Let us turn to this week'sinterview.
I'm very excited.
It is our next episode in ourseries on abortion later in
pregnancy.
And again, I just want to givea special shout out to Patient
Forward for being such awonderful partner in this
project.
They have done such a great jobhelping us find guests and
(06:07):
think about topics that weshould talk about relating to
abortion later in pregnancy.
This week, we're going to talkto Amy Littlefield at The
Nation, who wrote a greatarticle for them in May talking
about why we need to fight forabortions at all stages.
And she's also the author of aforthcoming book coming out in
March that I am so excited forcalled Killers of Roe: My
(06:31):
Investigation into theMysterious Death of Abortion
Rights.
I cannot wait to read it.
We will absolutely have her onthe podcast when it comes out.
And I am so excited to havealong with Amy, Garin Marschall
with Patient Forward again, soexcited to have him on to talk
about the work that PatientForward does and to talk about
why it is so important toadvocate for abortion later in
(06:52):
pregnancy.
So with that, let's go to myinterview with Garin and Amy.
Hi, Amy.
Hi, Garin.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Garin (07:01):
Hello.
Amy (07:01):
Hi, Jennie.
Thanks for having us.
Jennie (07:04):
Always excited to have both of you on.
Before we get started, let's doa quick round of introductions
so everybody knows who'stalking.
Amy, would you like to gofirst?
Amy (07:14):
So, my name is Amy Littlefield.
I'm the abortion accesscorrespondent for The Nation
magazine, and I am excited todebut the new and improved title
of my forthcoming book on theanti-abortion movement, which
will be out in March 2026.
It's called Killers of Roe, MyInvestigation into the
Mysterious Death of AbortionRights.
(07:35):
So, keep an eye out for thatcome springtime.
Jennie (07:39):
Ooh, thanks for the great birthday present.
My birthday is in March.
Amy (07:43):
Oh, great.
I'll send you one.
Jennie (07:45):
First, congratulations! Yes.
I'm a huge reader.
So like anybody who can write abook, it's like magic to me.
So, I'm so excited for you andI cannot wait to read it.
We'll have you back on to talkabout it when it comes out.
Amy (07:59):
I'll make sure yours is sent in sparkly wrapping paper
for your birthday.
Yes.
Jennie (08:05):
Okay, Garin, would you like to introduce yourself?
Garin (08:07):
Sure.
My name is Garin Marschall.
I'm the co-founder of PatientForward, a strategy and advocacy
organization fighting for afuture where all pregnant people
are met with support not stigmaor punishment.
And yeah, I can go more intowho I am I guess when we have a
minute.
Jennie (08:26):
I'm so excited to have you on again, Garin.
I am so excited to work withPatient Forward.
Y'all have been amazingpartners for this six-month
series on abortion later inpregnancy.
I am just so grateful to y'allfor working with us to make this
wonderful series so everybodycan learn more about why
abortion later in pregnancy isimportant.
Garin (08:44):
And thank you for doing it.
Jennie (08:44):
I am really excited about this series.
I have been having a lot of fundoing it.
I've had so many greatconversations.
And Amy, I'm so excited to haveyou on today to about the
amazing article you wrote forThe Nation that came out In May?
Amy (09:00):
May, yeah.
Jennie (09:01):
May, June, somewhere in that area.
I don't know, I've lost all,time is like, it means nothing
anymore.
Do you want to tell us a littlebit about your article and like
what has stuck with you duringthis reporting?
Amy (09:13):
Yeah, so this article on later abortions really grew out
of watching the way that theissue of later abortion was
handled in the 2024 election.
Like many of us, I watchedDonald Trump on the debate stage
talking about babies beingexecuted and, you know,
abortions in the ninth month ofpregnancy and using this
(09:34):
combination of distortion andlies to really fixate on the one
aspect of abortion rights whereRepublicans think they can
still win public hearts andminds, right?
Republicans were having a toughtime figuring out how to talk
(10:04):
about abortion, many of themwere running from the issue.
(10:37):
Like during that debate inSeptember 2024, while Trump was,
you know, talking aboutexecuting babies after birth,
Kamala Harris's rebuttal was tosay, nowhere in America is a
(11:00):
woman carrying a pregnancy toterm and asking for an abortion,
right?
It's this sort of way ofsaying, this doesn't happen or
it'srare, rather than talking about the realities of later-abortion, what actually does happen, and I think that's left the public in the dark about what actually happens during a later-abortion and what actually is the truth. And so, I really wanted to spend time in a clinic and find out what happens in a later-abortion and what are the steps involved, who are the people who are seeking these procedures, because the reality felt so separate from the political debate. But we don’t often let the public into the reality.
We don't often give people awindow into what it actually
(11:41):
does look like, because I thinkthere's a lot of fear among the
pro-choice majority in thiscountry around talking about
these procedures and what theyactually entail.
So, I reached out to theco-founders of Partners in
Abortion Care and was like, hey,can I show up and spend a few
days in your clinic and see whathappens and talk to any
(12:02):
patients who are willing andjust learn what this actually
looks like so that we can tellpeople.
Rather than leave a vacuum thatI think has allowed Republicans
to completely guide theconversation and allowed
abortion opponents to completelydistort the way that we think
about later abortion, I wantedto bring a journalist's eye to
the question of what theseprocedures actually look like.
And fortunately, I found twopatients who were incredibly
(12:28):
open and trusting and wonderfuland wanted to share their
stories in order to help advancethe public understanding of of
what they and others in theirposition are going through.
Jennie (12:39):
I guess that brings me makes me think of the important
role that storytelling plays inall of this.
I think, you know, it does somuch to battle stigma.
Garin, would you like to talkabout that portion?
Garin (12:49):
Yeah, I think I will say I love this article.
And I think one one of the mostsuccessful parts of it is that
it does have these stories toanchor it.
And I think that that's veryimportant to kind of replacing
the rhetoric that we've heard onboth sides.
And that's something that weexperienced a lot.
(13:10):
My own sort of journey ofunderstanding with abortion
later in pregnancy, it came froma personal story.
But I think as we've told thatpersonal story, to people, it's
been interesting to see how itdoes sort of immediately just
dispel these things that are inpeople's minds and replace it
(13:31):
with something that actuallyhappens.
And the importance of thatcannot be understated.
And I mean that like both atthe sort of national or
political level or in articleslike this, but also just in
small rooms over small tables, Ithink people telling each other
about their experiences withabortion care later in pregnancy
(13:53):
is huge.
I co-founded Patient Forwardwith my partner,
Erika Christensen, after sheneeded an abortion in 2016.
And at the time, abortionsearlier in pregnancy were legal
in New York, but later abortionin the care that she needed was
banned.
And we were lucky and we wereprivileged and she was able to
get compassionate care inColorado, but we knew that the
(14:16):
state's law was wrong.
And so, we started sharing ourstory in efforts to
decriminalize abortion in NewYork.
So, we started RHA Vote and thegrassroots effort to pass the
Reproductive Health Act, whichwas signed into law in 2019.
And, you know, there's a lot Ican say about that.
It was a bittersweet victory.
By the time the law had passed,we'd come to understand that,
like, the viability limit in theRHA was not great.
(14:39):
And now people are still beingdenied care under the new law.
Like, we didn't really, like,strike at the root and
ultimately, in a way,inadvertently reinforce the
state's role in pregnancy.
But I think that what welearned through that process is
the importance of storytellingfor lawmakers.
And there was actually a studyabout this that they don't
(15:01):
listen to data, they listen tostories, or that's more
compelling.
But I think that's true withall of us.
We need something to anchor ourunderstanding.
And I think that...
as Amy's story highlights,people who need later abortions
come to this care from a widearray of circumstances.
And a lot of times the onesthat we talk about publicly are
(15:22):
these fetal anomaly stories, asthey're so-called.
And we're often sharing thesestories in support of policies
that then undermine the bodilyautonomy of people later into
their pregnancy.
So, it's important that when wedo share stories...
In our later abortion stories,we first understand what are the
stories being used for and toensure that it's not the reason
(15:46):
why someone's getting care thatwe're focused on.
Instead, the story talks aboutthe impact of the government
interference of the abortionlaws and stuff like that.
From an advocacy perspective,that part's important.
But I think that this piece, Iwant everyone in the country to
read it, partly because of thosestories.
Because I think those storiesjust show the things that people
(16:08):
are dealing with, the thingsthat we see show up in data or
whatever, but they humanize themin such an important way.
Amy (16:15):
I think the only thing that I would add is just on the
criminalization point that,like, people are being
criminalized for their pregnancyoutcomes, and that was
happening before the Dobbsdecision that overturned Roe,
and it's happening now.
And that Pregnancy Justicereported a record 210
prosecutions for conductassociated with pregnancy loss
(16:36):
or birth in the year after theDobbs decision, and that most of
those cases happened inAlabama, Oklahoma, or South
Carolina, where courts haveexpansively interpreted the
personhood of viable fetusesaccording to the Pregnancy
Justice report that recentlycame out.
And so, you know, a lot ofpeople know the story of
Brittany Watts, a Black woman inOhio who was arrested for
(16:56):
miscarrying in her bathroom,right?
And that's a case thatPregnancy Justice has
highlighted because, you know,what mattered in her case was
the fact that the fetus wasconsidered to be a size and age
where it could theoreticallysurvive or be viable, right?
It didn't matter, you know,that it was a miscarriage that
she herself hadn't caused.
And so, I think we should justbe cognizant that we live in a,
(17:18):
you know, system of massincarceration where Black people
in particular, people of color,low-income people tend to be
criminalized and that peoplehave been you know, criminalized
for a long time in thiscountry.
And this is, so this is notwhen we talk about pregnancy
criminalization, it's not ahypothetical.
Garin (17:34):
Yeah.
And I think that PregnancyJustice report, which I worked
on with Karen Thompson atPregnancy Justice, it's really
great.
People can go check it out atpregnancy justice.com, but this
report is great because itreally does make a connection, a
link.
It connects the dots betweenthese lines that we're drawing
in abortion policies that banabortion later in pregnancy and
(17:57):
the links to criminalization,the links to this invitation of
the government to sort of policepregnancy.
Because when you draw a line,it's going to be policed.
And that's what we're doing.
And we're seeing theconsequences of that.
And to be clear, this is notsomething that started when Roe
was overturned.
This has been going on fordecades and decades and decades.
(18:19):
So, I invite people to checkthat out.
And I think it's such a hugepart of this conversation
because it's not just aboutabortion, for sure.
Jennie (18:26):
This all makes me think of not necessarily storytelling,
but the humanization part hadsuch an important role it played
for me early when I first wasstarting to think about this.
I've talked about this on thepodcast before, but But I went
to Catholic school, K-8.
I had sex ed from a nun.
As you can imagine, it was notsex ed in any way, shape, or
(18:47):
form.
And I had a friend when I wasin, I don't know, maybe fifth
grade who asked me to go withher to go to Madison to go save
babies.
And obviously, yeah, I want togo save babies.
And I remember going home andtalking to my mom and her
sitting me down.
I have this really clear visionof sitting at the breakfast
(19:07):
counter.
And her not telling a story,she didn't have her own personal
story to share, but reallydoing the like, have you thought
about a person in thiscircumstance?
Or what if this is happening inthe person's life?
Or what about this situation?
And then for me, I thought shedid a really smart thing of
being like, I'm not saying youcan't go.
(19:27):
If you want to go, you can go.
Make your decision.
And gave me the autonomy totake all that in and process it
and make my own decisions.
And it was something thatreally stuck with me, putting
myself in that person's shoes.
So the role of stories andpersonalizing it just can make a
(19:48):
huge difference.
I think another reallyimportant part in the piece, and
you've already kind of touchedon this a bit, Amy, was the
"Democrats love to avoid it andRepublicans love to lie about it
line," like that really stuckout.
Do you want to maybe dig intothat a little bit more?
Amy (20:06):
Yeah, I mean, I feel like that was my experience, not just
in the 2024 election, but justwatching how the abortion issue
has been discussed from thenational stage.
Republicans love to talk aboutlater abortions, because again,
it's the one point where theythink they can still win.
And so, and they love to makeup lies about, you know,
abortion on the way to thedelivery room.
(20:27):
And the way that this narrativeserves them, I think, is that
it focused is attention on thefetus, and away from the person
carrying the fetus, right?
So it's intended to distract usaway from the story, as you're
talking about, right, the storyof the person carrying that
pregnancy, and towards the imageof, you know, the fetus.
(20:51):
And, you know, I think a lotabout the history of the debate
around so called "partial-birth" abortion, right, which
began in the 1990s.
And just what a successfulstrategy that was by the
anti-abortion movement wherethey basically invented this
term to describe an abortionprocedure and circulated
drawings and illustrations andfocused everyone's attention on
(21:14):
this idea of partial birth whichyou know for anyone who's gone
through or been present at abirth that conjures a certain
image in your mind right and youknow they really created this
political rhetoric that wascompletely divorced from reality
and i think it was actuallyvery challenging for Democrats
and pro-choice advocates torebut it.
(21:36):
And I think we still haven't, Ithink the movement still hasn't
pinned down a way to fullyrebut rhetoric like that, that
focuses on the imagery of, youknow, what happens supposedly,
which again is often distortedbeyond belief, you know, during
a later abortion.
But I think it's a very smartstrategy on their part.
And I think it was sort of theonly one left to Republicans,
(21:59):
right?
Like, what else are they goingto talk about?
This is a wildly popular, youknow, constitutional right
that's more popular than mostpoliticians, like most of them
were running from questionsabout the issue and not wanting
to discuss it at all.
So, and I think for manypro-choice groups, and I'm sure
we'll talk about the ballotinitiatives, right, that we saw
coming out of this huge numberof efforts to advance
(22:21):
reproductive rights at theballot box in states where that
was feasible, a lot of them hadlimitations or allowed the state
to impose limitations on them.
on abortion after viability.
And so, rather than sort oftackling the stigma and the
issue of how Republicans distortlater abortion, I think a lot
(22:43):
of pro-choice advocates said,look, this is an emergency
situation, we're going to passan imperfect, you know, ballot
initiative.
And now we're seeing stateconstitutions that enshrine, you
know, allowing suchrestrictions.
And so, I think that wasanother reason to talk about it
in this political moment to sortof assess how that played out
in the 2024 election and whatwe're
likely to see with these ballot initiatives moving forward.
I think this also makes methink of how...smart, and I
(23:11):
really hate to give them creditfor this, but the anti-abortion
movement is, right?
They're naming things and thengetting the media to use that
language, right?
Whether it's calling themselvesthe "pro-life" movement when
all they're really focused on ismaking sure that you have the
baby, but not talking about anyother forms of support, right?
(23:33):
You just saw them making hugecuts to SNAP and Medicaid and
all of these other life-savingthings.
Things talking about "heartbeatbans" or any of these other
things that are language thatthey get the media to use, that
you have this evocative imagerythat gets to, like you said,
(23:56):
kind of like that emotion ontheir side in a way that is
great.
Devious is maybe not the rightword, but a little bit, yeah.
So that is just something that,you know, as you were talking,
like that was what was goingthrough my head, was just their
use of language to kind of swaythe conversation and pull it
(24:17):
over to their side.
Garin (24:18):
Yeah, and I think that they are successful at...
some of these things, some ofit is about, frankly, things
like message discipline, youknow, like they're very good at
that in ways that maybe wearen't always.
But which I think, you know, wecan go into details about that.
But I also think that there isthe failure of a vision being
(24:39):
put forward, I think, on bothsides to some degree.
So, like, you know, they cansay what they don't want, but,
you know, they're not reallybeing honest about what the
reality that would follow thatwould be, right?
And similarly, I don't thinkthat the—I'll call it the
pro-choice side, but thegenerally pro-abortion side, and
I mean that in an expansivesense— has in a way failed to
(25:02):
both settle on a goal and along-term vision.
And so I do think there arevisions out there that we could
fully embrace, like reproductivejustice, but I think that that
would require us to put forwarddifferent policies.
So, the policies that Amy wastalking about, these ballot
initiatives that do have linesdrawn, are not actually aligned
(25:24):
with reproductive justice.
They do not protect or allowbodily autonomy, things like
that.
And so, I think that we, youknow, we do need to start
offering people an expansivevision, but also start, when
we're talking about thesethings, you know, we don't need
to talk about, you know, ifthey're talking, if they're
(25:44):
using this very graphicinflammatory language, our
response doesn't need to be,that doesn't happen.
Because obviously that's nottrue.
What's true is that thequestion needs to be, how do you
want the government to beinvolved in that?
Right.
And so that's, I think, wherewe need to focus is like, what
do you want the government'srole to be in this?
(26:05):
It's OK if people areuncomfortable with these things.
Right.
I mean, if you described anymedical procedure in graphic
detail, people would beuncomfortable with it.
But how do you want thegovernment to interfere, to make
laws, to criminalize people, topunish providers?
Who do you want to go to jailfor this?
That's where I think ourlanguage needs to be, is really
(26:28):
talking about what is thereality they're arguing for?
What is the reality and thefuture that we're arguing for?
And put those against eachother and I think when we do
that, and we offer people anexpansive future and expansive
vision, they choose that and,like, with the ballot measures,
they're just people are votingfor what they're given so like
it's not that people wanted aline at drawn at viability but
(26:51):
that's what they were given tovote on in 2024 in a lot of
these states.
And so, I think that, you know,I think we have a lot of work
to do to sort of invest in thisvision of the future, invest in
a different role for thegovernment in this.
And I think we can do it.
Jennie (27:08):
Yeah, it makes me think when I was originally doing this
work, you know, I still had allof that.
You bathe in this like soup oflike abortion stigma that is
just like out in the world andyou just like take so much of it
on and some of it is a processof like making sure that you get
rid of any of that internalstigma that you have picked up.
And I talked about this whenErika and Garin were on the
(27:33):
podcast before, but theiramazing work that they did on
social media talking about thisand talking about why it was so
important that we got rid ofthese gestational bans.
led to me deciding that weneeded to update our 50-state
report card to not only measureup to 20 weeks, which is what we
had done in the past.
(27:53):
But when rePROs Fight Back tookover that report card, we went
all the way through like anygestational ban has to go.
And I fully credit their workthat they had done on social
media, not targeted at me orpushing on me or anything, but
just it was something that Istarted to see and think about.
And I really credit them forthat work that it helped me
(28:15):
shape my thinking and change mynot necessarily change my mind.
It's not like I had like aproblem with it, but decided we
needed to update our reportcard.
So it was more reflective ofthe reality of what the world
looked like right now.
Amy (28:27):
I have a story in the storytelling vein, a story to
piggyback on Garin's pointthere, which is when I
interviewed Garin and Erika forthis article, I told them about
the fact that I had shared, youknow, my project, what I was
doing with certain members of myfamily.
And they are pro-choice people.
(28:48):
You know, they are blue votershere in the beautiful state of
Massachusetts.
And yet when I said, yeah, Iwas watching this abortion
procedure happen at 28 weeks,and this is what it entailed.
And it starts with an injectionto stop the fetal heart.
And then, and they werehorrified that I was writing
about this.
And they felt a whole range ofcomplicated feelings about the
(29:09):
fact that abortions arehappening at that stage of
pregnancy.
And when I related this toErica, she made that point that
Garin just made about, okay,then at what point in a
pregnancy does this become acriminal matter?
At what point do people needto, we need to consider prison
time for this?
And the answer that I got,right, when I put that to the,
(29:34):
you know, one of the members ofmy family who had this strong
reaction, she was like, ofcourse, I don't want the
government involved.
Of course.
And it was like her distrust ofthe government having any say
in pregnancy outweighed whateverpersonal emotional feelings she
had about the idea of thisprocedure.
And so...
(29:55):
I think I tried in the articleto give people a little bit of
an escape valve, you know,through that argument that I
think people when they hearabout an abortion taking place,
when the fetus looks like ababy, you know, and when the
fetus is moving around inside apatient's body, and you know,
that brings up complicatedfeelings that frankly we have
(30:17):
never accommodated in ourpolitical discourse, right?
Like, a political ad doesn'ttend to have room for that sort
of nuance.
And so the stories that tend tomake it through are the ones of
catastrophic tragedy and oftena white person with a wanted
pregnancy facing a horrible, youknow, decision.
And so, you know, people cangrapple with and think through
(30:38):
the nuance and that's what thestorytelling is for.
But it also, I think thatframing around like, is this
really a criminal matter, youknow, gets to the heart of how
complicated it is to think aboutthe law colliding with the very
complex and unpredictablescience of pregnancy.
Jennie (31:01):
Yeah, I have to say, I was really shocked when we did
the report card.
The first time taking that onis how few states don't have a
gestational ban, right?
I think Amy had it in herpiece.
It was nine states in DC, or isthat nine total, don't have a
gestational ban.
That is wild.
And there are a lot of stateswhere you assume have access
(31:24):
that do have gestational bans.
And I remember being surprisedwith that as well.
Garin (31:29):
Which I love, by the way.
But I also just want to make aquick point about that, which is
that in a way, what you'redescribing and what we've been
talking about a little bitsometimes is an absence of even,
like you said, Amy,accommodating people's complex
feelings about this, but also wehaven't just talked about it.
There haven't been peopleloudly, vocally supporting it.
(31:52):
You can look at maps on the NewYork Times or on other websites
that track abortion laws, andthey just pretend that abortion
bans later in pregnancy aren'tbans.
And I think that if you thinkabout that, if you think about
the sort of pervasiveness ofthese lines drawn in the Roe
decision or whatever, theabsence of more diverse stories,
(32:16):
it makes sense that people areuncomfortable with this because
we've never tried to do anythingdifferent.
And so now what's happening isthat people are trying, people
are doing it.
You do have, it used to be alot of the providers, you know,
they were these like embattledproviders.
dudes who were like providingcare and like being shot at and
(32:38):
they were, you know, likewhatever.
And now they're just likenormal, wonderful people working
at these clinics and, andwanting to open more clinics and
more people want it.
Like people are going topartners to train.
And I think part of it is thatthis care being brought into
the light, especially byarticles like this one that
handle it so thoughtfully issuper important to this bigger
(33:01):
culture shift that has to happenwhere we do give the public the
opportunity to decide how theyfeel about it.
But we've never given themenough information to form an
opinion, frankly.
And so now what's happening isI think we're seeing a shift
there and things like changinghow we're tracking policies and
describing that, how we'representing stories about later
(33:22):
abortion and featuring theproviders and showing pictures
of people.
You know what I mean?
Instead of just like theseweird cut-off belly images or
whatever.
You know, it's like I do thinka lot of that is changing.
And so, I really appreciateboth of your work for that and
sort of our broader missionthere.
Amy (33:40):
I've been doing a lot of deep dives into history for my
book.
And I think that this questionis actually a perennial one in
the abortion rights space,right?
Dating back to the earlyseventies when abortions banned
in the majority of states, youknow, pre Roe v.
Wade, right?
And you have the question ofwhether anti-abortion bans in
(34:01):
the states should be repealed orshould they be reformed, right?
Should they be reformed sincethat doctors still have some say
over when someone should get anabortion And surely there must
be some qualification on it.
We can't just let anyone go getan abortion willy nilly for any
reason.
Right.
And then you had, you know, Ithink of people like Pat
McGinnis who were like, forgetit.
This just is an unequivocalright.
Right.
(34:21):
This is just this is, you know,autonomy.
This is feminism 101.
Come on.
And so.
I think that debate over howfar can we go and what's
politically feasible, but alsocan we really trust pregnant
people to make the decisionwithout some government
involvement, that's played outin various forms for the entire
(34:42):
time that abortion has been aconstitutional right and even
before, right?
And I think that's what's sointeresting about the question
of later abortions is that itreally gets to the root of of
what are we talking about here?
Do we trust people to make thisdecision?
Or not, you know, and ShelleySella, who wrote a book on later
abortions, that's, that's verymoving, that I cite in the
(35:04):
piece, she, of course, was oneof the few people in the country
who provided openly providedabortions in the third trimester
of pregnancy, you know, shetalks about leaving it up to
patients to determine whether apregnancy is viable, right.
And that level of trust andautonomy for pregnant people,
it's very rare to find that inour political discourse, right?
(35:28):
And I think one of the fewplaces that that unconditional
support for pregnant peopleexists is in clinics like
Partners, right?
Where actually they don't ask,why are you here?
And why are you seeking thisabortion at 28 weeks?
They just say, you know, wetrust, I mean, there's
counseling, of course, they makesure that people are confident
in their decision, but they'renot saying, And as you point
(35:50):
out, this is a rare thing, ninestates and Washington, D.C.,
where there isn't some sort oflimitation.
And so I think that's partlywhy this is so contentious,
because it really gets to theheart of the issue of how much
do we allow pregnant people tomake this decision on their own
without mediation from a judgeor a state legislator or a
doctor.
Garin (36:11):
And if you think about that for a second, it's kind of
bananas, right?
Like, it's like...
Are there other very complexdecisions that we feel like are
improved by involving thegovernment?
You know what I mean?
Not many.
So I think this is one of thosesituations where, yes, I think
it is about how much do we trustpatients?
(36:33):
How much do we trust providers?
But I think there is the otherside of that, which is like, how
much do we trust thegovernment?
And remember that thegovernment changes, and we're
not talking about lofty,super-educated judges making
these decisions.
We're talking aboutstreet-level bureaucrats making
decisions about people and aboutthe private medical care that
(36:56):
they're going to get, etc., AndI just really, I think when you
talk to someone, most people,and you sort of drill down on
that and you're like, no, no,I'm really talking about like
that guy down the street who'slike wearing a badge or whatever
is going to be the one makingthe decision.
How do you feel about that?
Or this prosecutor?
And people are like, well, Idon't like that.
(37:18):
So in that way, it's verysimple.
But I do think that part of theproblem is that we have not
given people another way tomanage their complex feelings
about this and that's truethroughout our society like we
don't have if you don't likesomething for the most part our
government's like well we caneither make it illegal or not
and that's all we have and so ithink there are other things we
(37:41):
can do providers for instancelike you know medical providers
go through all types oflicensing and stuff like that
like i can't just go startproviding these surgeries so we
don't need special laws forabortion providers We just need
the same laws that we apply toother medical procedures to
apply to abortion providers, andthat's probably it.
And that's why a lot of those,when we are talking about repeal
(38:03):
versus reform, I do really dothink we need to be in a repeal
mind space, as opposed totinkering around the edges.
And that's one of the bigconversations happening in
Massachusetts right now, whereYou know, since I think in 2019
or so, they they passed theirReproductive Health Act and like
expanded care later inpregnancy with under exceptional
(38:25):
circumstances.
And then after Dobbs, they kindof like tweaked the language a
little bit.
But people are still having toleave Massachusetts for care.
Like, you know, Massachusettshas incredible health care
available there and people arestill having to leave that state
to access care and go to placeslike partners or these other
providers.
And that's partly because theyfailed to just absolutely repeal
(38:47):
the ban.
And so now they are puttingforth a bill in this legislative
session that will just repealthe ban.
They're just like, look, wetried tinkering around it.
We tried massaging thelanguage.
It didn't work.
We're going to just fix it.
And they're the first state tosort of openly say, we're going
to repeal our viability ban thatwe had put in place because
it's not working.
And it's getting a lot ofsupport.
Jennie (39:09):
So, what do we see as the path forward?
So we talked about gettingrepeal and getting rid of some
of these things.
What are some other thingsyou're thinking about as we
build to this better future?
Garin (39:23):
I mean, I think that like when I imagine the future of
what I want this care to be, itactually looks a lot like
partners.
It looks a lot like, you know,what...
The detail in Amy's piece whereshe talks about how providers
and patients interacted, howwhen patients were feeling
emotional, there was space madefor that.
(39:44):
I know these providers.
They're incredible people.
And I think that is what I wantfor people when they need this
care.
It's really that simple.
I want someone who doesn't askwhy you're here and make
judgments about it.
I want them to be supported,whether they have complex
feelings about the care they'reabout to receive or not.
I want a provider that explainsto them what's about to happen
(40:05):
and answers their questions andtreats them with dignity and
respect.
And I also, one thing I loveabout those people featured in
that story, including Dr.
McNicholas, Dr. Villavicencio,Dr.
Horvath, Morgan Nuzzo, is thatthese are providers who are
willing to stand in theirvalues.
They're willing to stand up andsay, I am here to provide
(40:29):
compassionate care for mypatients and it is worth doing
and it's good.
So they're willing to be, tostand in front of the work that
they do.
And I think that that's thefuture that I want.
And there are other clinicsopening.
I mean, I think there's beenthis like idea that people don't
want to provide this care orthat people don't, that it's
somehow like this darkness overit.
(40:50):
But I, you know, we see more,there's more later abortion
providers than have ever existedin this country providing care.
They're younger.
They're increasingly people ofcolor, queer people opening and
owning clinics.
There's a[Valley Abortion Group] (VAG)
clinic that just opened inAlbuquerque.
They're wonderful.
We were literally just therelast week on our way back on a
(41:10):
road trip.
We stopped by and visited.
And I think that those are thekinds of things that we want to
see is we want to see statesthat say, we will not get
involved here.
We're going to let providersand patients figure it out.
And the thing is, like, all ofthese people are moral decision
makers.
Patients will navigate themoral complexity of this care.
(41:30):
Providers will navigate it.
The nurses, the office staff,the people working at abortion
clinics, at abortion funds,practical support organizations,
all of these people are doingthat.
They're showing up because theyhave wrestled with these things
and they've come out to wherethey are.
And I think that that's thefuture that I want to see is
(41:53):
where we make space for that.
We allow that to happen.
And then we kind of keep itmoving.
Let's fix some other stuff.
Amy (42:02):
Yeah.
Jennie, I would love to answeryour question by sharing some of
the stories from my piecebecause I'm not a policy person.
But I'll tell you, when I wentdown to the clinic to visit, I
assumed that I was probablygoing to get...
in touch with, that if anypatients there, if I was
fortunate that any of themwanted to talk with me and share
(42:22):
their stories, that it wasprobably going to be someone
with a fatal fetal anomaly orsomeone from a banned state who
had been forced by the laws inher home state to seek an
abortion later in pregnancy,right?
And that's because I know thestatistics around who seeks
later abortions, and I know thattends to be people who receive
new information, like adevastating fetal diagnosis, or
(42:45):
people who get pushed furtherinto pregnancy by anti-abortion
laws, right?
And so, when I showed up there,I was hoping someone would talk
to me, and I assumed it wouldbe someone in those categories.
Instead, the person who woundup being the most open with me,
who allowed me to accompany herthrough every step of her
procedure, to be there in theroom when she went through each
(43:06):
step and who shared her storyand her reasons with me, was
somebody who is statisticallynot typical.
It was somebody who lived inthe state of Maryland.
And so, Medicaid covered herabortion.
So, she was not someone who washaving to raise the thousands
of dollars that an abortionlater in pregnancy typically
costs, right?
She was someone whose mainbarrier had been her own
(43:31):
ambivalence.
She didn't know what she wantedto do.
And she took a lot of time tomake her choice.
Her name was Ayanna.
She was a mom of three.
She had a one-year-old and sheworked at a school for kids with
autism and then on the weekendsanswered phones at a pizza
place.
Her partner worked for a movingcompany.
(43:52):
And her kids, you know, herdaughter in particular, who's
five years old, noticed that shewas struggling at home.
Her daughter was trying topitch in and change her baby
brother's diapers.
And her daughter chided her andsaid, we don't need any more
babies.
When she saw that her belly wasgrowing, she said, we don't
need any more babies.
And Ayanna told me she had beenwaiting for a sign.
(44:13):
You know, as the weeks went by,she had really been agonizing
over the decision and waitingfor a sign.
And in the end, the sign washer three kids.
And once she made her decision,she radiated the sense of calm.
Like, it was just so the entireexperience, she knew what she
wanted.
She was firm.
She was one of the most sort oftranquil people I've ever
(44:36):
reported on.
And I know from talking withdoctors in states like Florida
and and Texas where people havebeen forced to live under six
week abortion bans.
I mean, Texas now has a totalban that when people are rushed
to make a decision, they can endup regretting it, right?
It's becausethey feel like the right is gonna get taken away, they rush, they make a decision, they have the abortion. People sometimes need that time.
(44:56):
And so, statistically, there isn't a huge- this is not a major reason why people seek abortions later in pregnancy. Statistically, the decision, it tends not to be. It tends to be more likely be the other factors I talked about.
But this was the person infront of me.
(45:17):
And this was the story that Ihad to tell.
And she was such a gift becauseshe was willing to share it
with me.
So I think to the extent thatpeople can connect with her, can
identify with, you know, I'm amom myself, I could really
identify.
And I was pregnant while I wasthere.
And I was a little worried,like, is the fact that I'm
pregnant going to make me feelweird about being around these
(45:40):
people who are terminating theirpregnancies?
And instead, I felt like, no, Ican connect with her even more.
Cause I've got a five-year-oldand boy, do I realize how, you
know, the wild things that theysay.
And also the fact that I woulddo anything in the entire world
to give them a good life, youknow?
And so meeting these women whoreally were motivated by the
love for the kids that they had,that really touched me.
(46:02):
And I felt like, you know, as Iwas waddling my like nauseous
self around this clinic, youknow, remembering what a toll
pregnancy takes on, on the body,I was thinking, you know, that
there really is more thatconnects us.
I love that quote about how theperson seeking an abortion and
the person having a baby, it'sthe same person at different
(46:23):
points in their lives.
And so I really felt that whenI was there.
And I really hope that peoplecan connect with Ayanna and can
understand the complexity of herstory and open their hearts and
minds to anyone who you know,who might wind up in this
position, not just the personwith, you know, it's
interesting, one of theadvocates I talked to for the
(46:45):
piece, I was like, you know, theperson who I'm featuring, you
know, most closely in the pieceis someone who, who just needed
a lot of time to make herdecision.
And it was, you know, a quote,unquote, "elective abortion,"
right?
She didn't have a terriblefetal malformation or maternal
health indication, or it hadn'ttaken her time to raise the
money because her insurancecovered it.
And the advocate said, good.
I was like, why is that good?
(47:07):
Wouldn't it be better if I had,you know, like some tragic
story to tell where it'd bereally clear to the reader that
this was needed?
And she was like, no, becausethat's, you know, that's always
been the decision dating backto, you know, in the partial
-birth, so-called "partial-birth" abortion debate.
It was the people who had, youknow, tragic circumstances with
wanted pregnancies who wereselected to sort of have some
(47:32):
semblance of making this anacceptable procedure for the
public.
And I think telling the truestory involves allowing in more
complexity and being honestabout the nuances and the real
complicated lives of the peopleinvolved.
Jennie (47:48):
I agree.
I was really touched by both ofthe stories and the stories in
Dr.
Seidel's book as well.
Those were just really stuckwith me and found them all just
so moving.
And again, the power of storiesand the more stories you tell,
the more you can show theexperience in its full breadth.
(48:09):
If you're only going to tell astory, then it's easier to fall
into that trap of telling themost tragic one that you can
find to try to move hearts andminds.
But if you're telling multiplestories, you are able to capture
that full experience in a waythat I think people are able to
connect with and see themselveswith and in many different
places.
Garin (48:30):
And I want to say one thing about that, because, you
know, our story, my family'sstory is one of those, you know,
we got a poor fetal diagnosis,we sought care for those
reasons.
And we did, as we told ourstory, in efforts to sort of
change the law in New York andthings like that, we started to
see the master narrative in away that we were reinforcing and
(48:51):
how harmful it was to otherpeople who needed care.
And so I think what we realizedis that we and other people in
the reproductive rights spaceneed to hold ourselves
accountable to that.
How do we make a safe place forpeople who sought care for
other reasons to tell theirstory?
How do we make it safer?
(49:13):
How do we make it morewelcoming?
And I think that when you lookat Democrats or mainstream
reproductive rightsorganizations, if they're
pretending this care doesn'thappen or pretending it only
happens in these very specificcircumstances, they're actually
silencing the these otherstories.
They're making it less safe forthose people to tell their
(49:34):
stories.
They're making it lesswelcoming.
And I think that that has donea real harm.
And it's kind of like areinforcing, you know, it's like
a feedback loop.
So, the reason why a lot ofAmericans are confused about why
people seek this care later inpregnancy is because of these
stories that we keep tellingthem.
And we have to expand thosestories.
And there are groups that havedone a lot of work to do that,
(49:57):
We Testify, etc., but I thinkthat there is just this absence
of those stories.
And I'm so glad that thestories that you featured in
this article weren't thosestories in that way.
And then the other person inthere, Scarlett, I think is the
name that you used, who camefrom California.
I loved that we were showingthat someone flew across this
(50:18):
huge country to get care becausethat's what she had to do to
get that care.
Amy (50:23):
So, Scarlett was a patient I profiled in the story who had
traveled from a state thatdidn't have any clinics that
offered care as late as sheneeded it.
I don't name the state whereshe's from in the piece, but she
had found out she was pregnantat 16 weeks, and she was one of
the people who had to raise$12,000 because that was how
much she needed for theabortion.
(50:44):
And then there's anotherunnamed patient in the piece who
did come from California, and Ithink many people would be
surprised to learn thatCalifornia which we probably
think of as one of the blueststates in the country, if not
the bluest, was not able to seethis person.
And she had to make her ownjourney to fly to Maryland.
And by the time she got there,she was past partner's limit.
(51:05):
And it seemed unlikely that shewas going to be able to get
care, you know, because of whereshe was gestationally at that
point.
And so, so yeah, it goes toshow you this impacts people,
even in blue states, likeMassachusetts, where I'm
sitting.
Jennie (51:21):
Okay, being conscious of everybody's time.
Let's let's get to the end.
I always like to focus on howcan our audience get involved?
Like what can our audience doto help in this moment?
Let's go to Amy first.
Amy (51:36):
I mean, I would let people know that there are abortion
funds and places that supportpeople later in pregnancy.
In particular, there's placeslike the Brigid Alliance.
Most abortion funds are alsoworking to help people later in
pregnancy who might need totravel.
And so, I would check out theplaces in your area that you
(51:59):
might be interested in donatingto or volunteering for if you
want to help people who are, youknow, in the wake of the Dobbs
decision, I've been hearing froma lot of advocates is like
there was this huge surge inrage donations in 2022.
And this huge amount of moneythat went into like helping
people travel and get access tothe care they needed.
(52:21):
And that's one of the reasonswhy the number of abortions rose
after the Dobbs decision, whichI just think is such a
testament to the strength ofthe, you know, abortion access
support networks that we have,and also to the level of public
outrage that really filled thosecoffers and made it so that
people could get, in addition tothe shifting landscape around
(52:44):
medication abortion, which is ahuge factor, I think that
helped.
But I think those donationshave begun to dry up as people's
attention has fractalized in amillion different directions
because the Trump administrationhas done that to us.
So, I would check out what'sgoing on in your local area to
see what abortion funds might beoperating and might need your
(53:06):
support.
Garin (53:07):
Yeah, and I would say, I mean, I think we need to invite
people to just loudly rejectabortion bans, all of them, like
people are doing inMassachusetts.
And I think everyday people whoare being asked to sign on to a
campaign or support somethingor legislators or advocates can
just start really asking thesereally simple questions of like,
(53:29):
does this allow a ban onabortion at any point in
pregnancy?
Does this give the governmentany control over pregnancy
decisions?
Like we just have to startasking better questions of the
things we're being asked tosupport.
and really ultimately demand akind of true reproductive
justice framework.
And we have a tool that peoplecan use to analyze policy called
(53:51):
Unpunish Pregnancy.
It's at unpunishpregnancy.com.
But I think that or other toolsor other things, and if people
have criticisms of a policy thatseems good, let's start just
having a more complexconversation about that and push
for a really, truly expansiveframework.
And I think we'll ultimately bein a better place when we
(54:13):
rebuild whatever's followingthis shitshow of an
administration.
Jennie (54:18):
I think the only thing I would add is my usual things I
like to flag around abortionfunds.
If you are able and would liketo donate to abortion funds, it
really means a lot to them ifyou are able to do monthly, even
if it's only a couple dollars,because then they know they're
getting that couple dollarsevery month.
And that helps them withbudgeting when they're thinking
(54:38):
through what they can disperseeach month.
So that makes a hugedifference.
And if you're on social media,make sure you are following your
local abortion fund or otherabortion fund you would like to
support often.
You'll see if they get somebodywho needs to travel far or have
an abortion later in pregnancy,that is really expensive.
You'll see special call outs onsocial media of, hey, we have
(55:01):
this patient and we have, it's$10,000 and we need to raise it.
I know I have contributed tothings like that.
And so I think those are just acouple of things to, if you
want to really help in thismoment, make a huge difference.
Okay, Amy, Garin, thank you somuch for being here today.
I had such a wonderful timetalking to the two of you.
Garin (55:20):
Thank you so much.
It was great.
Amy (55:21):
Thanks, Jennie.
Always great to be with you.
Garin (55:24):
And thanks for writing this article.
Amy (55:25):
And thank you for letting me interview you and draw on
your expert knowledge multipletimes.
Jennie (55:32):
Okay, y'all, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with
Garin and Amy.
I had such a great time talkingto them.
And I am so excited for Amy'sbook when it comes out.
And I am excited for our nextepisode in our series on
abortion later in pregnancy thatwill come out in August.
And otherwise, I will seeeverybody next week.
[music outro] If you have anyquestions, comments, or topics
(55:52):
you would like us to cover,always feel free to shoot me an
email.
You can reach me at Jennie,J-E-N-N-I-E, at
reprosfightback.com.
Or you can find us on socialmedia.
We're at rePROs Fight Back onFacebook and Twitter, or @repros
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If you love our podcast andwant to make sure more people
find it, take the time to rateand review us on your favorite
(56:15):
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And if you have any questions,or if you want to make sure to
support the podcast, you canalso donate on our website at
reprosfightback.com.
Thanks all.
Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, a podcast on all things
related to sexual andreproductive health rights and
justice. [music intro] HirePROs, how's everybody doing?
I'm your host, Jennie Wetter,and my pronouns are she/ her.
So, before we get started,let's just do like a quick bit
of housekeeping.
Just a reminder that welaunched a brand new merch
(00:24):
store.
You can find it on Bonfire ifyou look for rePROs Fight Back
on Bonfire, but also if you goto our show notes, the links
will be there or on socialmedia.
We've had people talking abouthow much they love our various
designs we have had when we havegone out and had stickers and
stuff, so we finally put it onmerch that you could all
purchase.
Y'all, I love everything somuch.
(00:47):
We have t-shirts, we have tanktops, there are mugs, there's
water bottles, there's bags,there's cute little pouches, and
so much more with our cutedesigns that we have had, both
from Liberal Jane and from ourin-house designer.
I love all of them.
I haven't decided what my firstpriority to buy is yet, but I
(01:08):
really need to go and buy myselfsomething because I am so
excited for all of it.
And I can't wait to wear myrePROs Fight Back merch out in
public.
I hope you will do as well.
Like I said, I know a lot ofyou have said you've been
excited and have been hopingthat we would get a merch store
soon so that you could buy someof our stuff.
So it is there now.
(01:28):
It's Bonfire.
And if you look for rePROsFight Back, you'll find us
there.
Otherwise, we will have linksin the show notes and all over
social media.
So we would love it if youwould wear your love for rePROs
Fight Back.
Okay, that's enoughhousekeeping.
We have kind of a long episode.
It's a really good episode, butit is a little long.
So we'll keep the intro alittle shorter.
(01:49):
Well, let's see.
I'll do one highlight and onelow light.
So highlight, the rePROs teamand then the broader Population
Institute team went to aNationals game this week.
It was so much fun.
We took Wednesday.
It was like the perfectbaseball day.
It was like mid 80s, cloudy.
So we weren't in the directsunlight, which was delightful.
(02:11):
As somebody who is very, verywhite and wears her Irish and
English and heritage on herskin, I did not get a sunburn,
which which was prettydelightful.
I wore sunscreen, but that'snot always a guarantee in my
world.
So I felt very lucky to get tospend a day hanging out, not
(02:31):
thinking about all of theterrible things that are
happening and just enjoying somebaseball and some ballpark food
and just having a fun day awayfrom everything.
I mean, the Nats lost, whichwas a bummer, but everything
else was so delightful and sofun.
So I'm glad we were able to dothat.
Okay, so the low light.
We have talked about on thepodcast how The administration
(02:53):
has really gone after and gottenrid of our aid system.
They got rid of USAID.
They have slashed almost all ofthe funding for global health
and development.
Just a little bit remains.
This was all done very suddenlyover the course of this
administration so far, but it'sbeen really done quickly.
(03:13):
just so fast and everything wasshut down that there was food
and commodities that werealready bought and in transit or
in warehouses waiting to begiven out to aid recipients.
And so, now we have all ofthese things that are already
bought and paid for with US taxdollars that are food going to
(03:34):
rot or medical supplies justsitting in warehouses.
So, one of the things that hashappened is that the
administration has decided thatinstead of trying to sell this
or give it to recipients orletting other aid agencies
around the world buy it and useit, $10 million worth of
(03:58):
contraception is going to beburned.
So that is almost $10 millionworth of IUDs and birth control
that instead of getting to thepeople who need it, who can use
it to control their lives, theadministration is going to spend
money to burn it.
Unconscionable.
This is just horrifying.
(04:19):
So all of these cuts were doneunder Doge, under the guise of
"waste," "fraud," and "abuse,"heavy air quotes.
If you want to talk waste,fraud, and abuse, let's look at
$10 million of contraceptionalready bought and paid for.
Instead of selling it tosomebody else who can make sure
it gets to the recipients whoneed it for lifesaving
(04:41):
healthcare, we are going tospend money to burn it.
That is is horrifying.
I just, I can't, I can't getover how egregious this is that
you are, we are actively goingout of our way to ensure that
people are not able to getaccess to this life-saving
healthcare that gives people theability to control their lives,
that we are going to set it onfire instead.
(05:03):
Just horrifying.
So it has not happened yet, atleast as of when I'm recording
this, but it is their intentionto burn it.
There are members of Congresswho are trying to fight this.
Senator Shaheen and SenatorSchatz introduced a bill in the
Senate to try and stop it.
And Representative Meeks,Frankel, and Meng in the House
(05:23):
have introduced a bill to tryand stop it.
It's great to see them fightingback and pushing to prevent
this destruction of commodities.
It's bigger than just familyplanning.
It is looking at other thingslike food that has been running
on shelves and things like thatto try and prevent this waste
and make sure that this aid getsto the people who need it.
Yeah, just terrible, y'all.
(05:44):
Okay, with that, I'll keep itshort and sweet.
Let us turn to this week'sinterview.
I'm very excited.
It is our next episode in ourseries on abortion later in
pregnancy.
And again, I just want to givea special shout out to Patient
Forward for being such awonderful partner in this
project.
They have done such a great jobhelping us find guests and
(06:07):
think about topics that weshould talk about relating to
abortion later in pregnancy.
This week, we're going to talkto Amy Littlefield at The
Nation, who wrote a greatarticle for them in May talking
about why we need to fight forabortions at all stages.
And she's also the author of aforthcoming book coming out in
March that I am so excited forcalled Killers of Roe: My
(06:31):
Investigation into theMysterious Death of Abortion
Rights.
I cannot wait to read it.
We will absolutely have her onthe podcast when it comes out.
And I am so excited to havealong with Amy, Garin Marschall
with Patient Forward again, soexcited to have him on to talk
about the work that PatientForward does and to talk about
why it is so important toadvocate for abortion later in
(06:52):
pregnancy.
So with that, let's go to myinterview with Garin and Amy.
Hi, Amy.
Hi, Garin.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Garin (07:01):
Hello.
Amy (07:01):
Hi, Jennie.
Thanks for having us.
Jennie (07:04):
Always excited to have both of you on.
Before we get started, let's doa quick round of introductions
so everybody knows who'stalking.
Amy, would you like to gofirst?
Amy (07:14):
So, my name is Amy Littlefield.
I'm the abortion accesscorrespondent for The Nation
magazine, and I am excited todebut the new and improved title
of my forthcoming book on theanti-abortion movement, which
will be out in March 2026.
It's called Killers of Roe, MyInvestigation into the
Mysterious Death of AbortionRights.
(07:35):
So, keep an eye out for thatcome springtime.
Jennie (07:39):
Ooh, thanks for the great birthday present.
My birthday is in March.
Amy (07:43):
Oh, great.
I'll send you one.
Jennie (07:45):
First, congratulations! Yes.
I'm a huge reader.
So like anybody who can write abook, it's like magic to me.
So, I'm so excited for you andI cannot wait to read it.
We'll have you back on to talkabout it when it comes out.
Amy (07:59):
I'll make sure yours is sent in sparkly wrapping paper
for your birthday.
Yes.
Jennie (08:05):
Okay, Garin, would you like to introduce yourself?
Garin (08:07):
Sure.
My name is Garin Marschall.
I'm the co-founder of PatientForward, a strategy and advocacy
organization fighting for afuture where all pregnant people
are met with support not stigmaor punishment.
And yeah, I can go more intowho I am I guess when we have a
minute.
Jennie (08:26):
I'm so excited to have you on again, Garin.
I am so excited to work withPatient Forward.
Y'all have been amazingpartners for this six-month
series on abortion later inpregnancy.
I am just so grateful to y'allfor working with us to make this
wonderful series so everybodycan learn more about why
abortion later in pregnancy isimportant.
Garin (08:44):
And thank you for doing it.
Jennie (08:44):
I am really excited about this series.
I have been having a lot of fundoing it.
I've had so many greatconversations.
And Amy, I'm so excited to haveyou on today to about the
amazing article you wrote forThe Nation that came out In May?
Amy (09:00):
May, yeah.
Jennie (09:01):
May, June, somewhere in that area.
I don't know, I've lost all,time is like, it means nothing
anymore.
Do you want to tell us a littlebit about your article and like
what has stuck with you duringthis reporting?
Amy (09:13):
Yeah, so this article on later abortions really grew out
of watching the way that theissue of later abortion was
handled in the 2024 election.
Like many of us, I watchedDonald Trump on the debate stage
talking about babies beingexecuted and, you know,
abortions in the ninth month ofpregnancy and using this
(09:34):
combination of distortion andlies to really fixate on the one
aspect of abortion rights whereRepublicans think they can
still win public hearts andminds, right?
Republicans were having a toughtime figuring out how to talk
(10:04):
about abortion, many of themwere running from the issue.
(10:37):
Like during that debate inSeptember 2024, while Trump was,
you know, talking aboutexecuting babies after birth,
Kamala Harris's rebuttal was tosay, nowhere in America is a
(11:00):
woman carrying a pregnancy toterm and asking for an abortion,
right?
It's this sort of way ofsaying, this doesn't happen or
it'srare, rather than talking about the realities of later-abortion, what actually does happen, and I think that's left the public in the dark about what actually happens during a later-abortion and what actually is the truth. And so, I really wanted to spend time in a clinic and find out what happens in a later-abortion and what are the steps involved, who are the people who are seeking these procedures, because the reality felt so separate from the political debate. But we don’t often let the public into the reality.
We don't often give people awindow into what it actually
(11:41):
does look like, because I thinkthere's a lot of fear among the
pro-choice majority in thiscountry around talking about
these procedures and what theyactually entail.
So, I reached out to theco-founders of Partners in
Abortion Care and was like, hey,can I show up and spend a few
days in your clinic and see whathappens and talk to any
(12:02):
patients who are willing andjust learn what this actually
looks like so that we can tellpeople.
Rather than leave a vacuum thatI think has allowed Republicans
to completely guide theconversation and allowed
abortion opponents to completelydistort the way that we think
about later abortion, I wantedto bring a journalist's eye to
the question of what theseprocedures actually look like.
And fortunately, I found twopatients who were incredibly
(12:28):
open and trusting and wonderfuland wanted to share their
stories in order to help advancethe public understanding of of
what they and others in theirposition are going through.
Jennie (12:39):
I guess that brings me makes me think of the important
role that storytelling plays inall of this.
I think, you know, it does somuch to battle stigma.
Garin, would you like to talkabout that portion?
Garin (12:49):
Yeah, I think I will say I love this article.
And I think one one of the mostsuccessful parts of it is that
it does have these stories toanchor it.
And I think that that's veryimportant to kind of replacing
the rhetoric that we've heard onboth sides.
And that's something that weexperienced a lot.
(13:10):
My own sort of journey ofunderstanding with abortion
later in pregnancy, it came froma personal story.
But I think as we've told thatpersonal story, to people, it's
been interesting to see how itdoes sort of immediately just
dispel these things that are inpeople's minds and replace it
(13:31):
with something that actuallyhappens.
And the importance of thatcannot be understated.
And I mean that like both atthe sort of national or
political level or in articleslike this, but also just in
small rooms over small tables, Ithink people telling each other
about their experiences withabortion care later in pregnancy
(13:53):
is huge.
I co-founded Patient Forwardwith my partner,
Erika Christensen, after sheneeded an abortion in 2016.
And at the time, abortionsearlier in pregnancy were legal
in New York, but later abortionin the care that she needed was
banned.
And we were lucky and we wereprivileged and she was able to
get compassionate care inColorado, but we knew that the
(14:16):
state's law was wrong.
And so, we started sharing ourstory in efforts to
decriminalize abortion in NewYork.
So, we started RHA Vote and thegrassroots effort to pass the
Reproductive Health Act, whichwas signed into law in 2019.
And, you know, there's a lot Ican say about that.
It was a bittersweet victory.
By the time the law had passed,we'd come to understand that,
like, the viability limit in theRHA was not great.
(14:39):
And now people are still beingdenied care under the new law.
Like, we didn't really, like,strike at the root and
ultimately, in a way,inadvertently reinforce the
state's role in pregnancy.
But I think that what welearned through that process is
the importance of storytellingfor lawmakers.
And there was actually a studyabout this that they don't
(15:01):
listen to data, they listen tostories, or that's more
compelling.
But I think that's true withall of us.
We need something to anchor ourunderstanding.
And I think that...
as Amy's story highlights,people who need later abortions
come to this care from a widearray of circumstances.
And a lot of times the onesthat we talk about publicly are
(15:22):
these fetal anomaly stories, asthey're so-called.
And we're often sharing thesestories in support of policies
that then undermine the bodilyautonomy of people later into
their pregnancy.
So, it's important that when wedo share stories...
In our later abortion stories,we first understand what are the
stories being used for and toensure that it's not the reason
(15:46):
why someone's getting care thatwe're focused on.
Instead, the story talks aboutthe impact of the government
interference of the abortionlaws and stuff like that.
From an advocacy perspective,that part's important.
But I think that this piece, Iwant everyone in the country to
read it, partly because of thosestories.
Because I think those storiesjust show the things that people
(16:08):
are dealing with, the thingsthat we see show up in data or
whatever, but they humanize themin such an important way.
Amy (16:15):
I think the only thing that I would add is just on the
criminalization point that,like, people are being
criminalized for their pregnancyoutcomes, and that was
happening before the Dobbsdecision that overturned Roe,
and it's happening now.
And that Pregnancy Justicereported a record 210
prosecutions for conductassociated with pregnancy loss
(16:36):
or birth in the year after theDobbs decision, and that most of
those cases happened inAlabama, Oklahoma, or South
Carolina, where courts haveexpansively interpreted the
personhood of viable fetusesaccording to the Pregnancy
Justice report that recentlycame out.
And so, you know, a lot ofpeople know the story of
Brittany Watts, a Black woman inOhio who was arrested for
(16:56):
miscarrying in her bathroom,right?
And that's a case thatPregnancy Justice has
highlighted because, you know,what mattered in her case was
the fact that the fetus wasconsidered to be a size and age
where it could theoreticallysurvive or be viable, right?
It didn't matter, you know,that it was a miscarriage that
she herself hadn't caused.
And so, I think we should justbe cognizant that we live in a,
(17:18):
you know, system of massincarceration where Black people
in particular, people of color,low-income people tend to be
criminalized and that peoplehave been you know, criminalized
for a long time in thiscountry.
And this is, so this is notwhen we talk about pregnancy
criminalization, it's not ahypothetical.
Garin (17:34):
Yeah.
And I think that PregnancyJustice report, which I worked
on with Karen Thompson atPregnancy Justice, it's really
great.
People can go check it out atpregnancy justice.com, but this
report is great because itreally does make a connection, a
link.
It connects the dots betweenthese lines that we're drawing
in abortion policies that banabortion later in pregnancy and
(17:57):
the links to criminalization,the links to this invitation of
the government to sort of policepregnancy.
Because when you draw a line,it's going to be policed.
And that's what we're doing.
And we're seeing theconsequences of that.
And to be clear, this is notsomething that started when Roe
was overturned.
This has been going on fordecades and decades and decades.
(18:19):
So, I invite people to checkthat out.
And I think it's such a hugepart of this conversation
because it's not just aboutabortion, for sure.
Jennie (18:26):
This all makes me think of not necessarily storytelling,
but the humanization part hadsuch an important role it played
for me early when I first wasstarting to think about this.
I've talked about this on thepodcast before, but But I went
to Catholic school, K-8.
I had sex ed from a nun.
As you can imagine, it was notsex ed in any way, shape, or
(18:47):
form.
And I had a friend when I wasin, I don't know, maybe fifth
grade who asked me to go withher to go to Madison to go save
babies.
And obviously, yeah, I want togo save babies.
And I remember going home andtalking to my mom and her
sitting me down.
I have this really clear visionof sitting at the breakfast
(19:07):
counter.
And her not telling a story,she didn't have her own personal
story to share, but reallydoing the like, have you thought
about a person in thiscircumstance?
Or what if this is happening inthe person's life?
Or what about this situation?
And then for me, I thought shedid a really smart thing of
being like, I'm not saying youcan't go.
(19:27):
If you want to go, you can go.
Make your decision.
And gave me the autonomy totake all that in and process it
and make my own decisions.
And it was something thatreally stuck with me, putting
myself in that person's shoes.
So the role of stories andpersonalizing it just can make a
(19:48):
huge difference.
I think another reallyimportant part in the piece, and
you've already kind of touchedon this a bit, Amy, was the
"Democrats love to avoid it andRepublicans love to lie about it
line," like that really stuckout.
Do you want to maybe dig intothat a little bit more?
Amy (20:06):
Yeah, I mean, I feel like that was my experience, not just
in the 2024 election, but justwatching how the abortion issue
has been discussed from thenational stage.
Republicans love to talk aboutlater abortions, because again,
it's the one point where theythink they can still win.
And so, and they love to makeup lies about, you know,
abortion on the way to thedelivery room.
(20:27):
And the way that this narrativeserves them, I think, is that
it focused is attention on thefetus, and away from the person
carrying the fetus, right?
So it's intended to distract usaway from the story, as you're
talking about, right, the storyof the person carrying that
pregnancy, and towards the imageof, you know, the fetus.
(20:51):
And, you know, I think a lotabout the history of the debate
around so called "partial-birth" abortion, right, which
began in the 1990s.
And just what a successfulstrategy that was by the
anti-abortion movement wherethey basically invented this
term to describe an abortionprocedure and circulated
drawings and illustrations andfocused everyone's attention on
(21:14):
this idea of partial birth whichyou know for anyone who's gone
through or been present at abirth that conjures a certain
image in your mind right and youknow they really created this
political rhetoric that wascompletely divorced from reality
and i think it was actuallyvery challenging for Democrats
and pro-choice advocates torebut it.
(21:36):
And I think we still haven't, Ithink the movement still hasn't
pinned down a way to fullyrebut rhetoric like that, that
focuses on the imagery of, youknow, what happens supposedly,
which again is often distortedbeyond belief, you know, during
a later abortion.
But I think it's a very smartstrategy on their part.
And I think it was sort of theonly one left to Republicans,
(21:59):
right?
Like, what else are they goingto talk about?
This is a wildly popular, youknow, constitutional right
that's more popular than mostpoliticians, like most of them
were running from questionsabout the issue and not wanting
to discuss it at all.
So, and I think for manypro-choice groups, and I'm sure
we'll talk about the ballotinitiatives, right, that we saw
coming out of this huge numberof efforts to advance
(22:21):
reproductive rights at theballot box in states where that
was feasible, a lot of them hadlimitations or allowed the state
to impose limitations on them.
on abortion after viability.
And so, rather than sort oftackling the stigma and the
issue of how Republicans distortlater abortion, I think a lot
(22:43):
of pro-choice advocates said,look, this is an emergency
situation, we're going to passan imperfect, you know, ballot
initiative.
And now we're seeing stateconstitutions that enshrine, you
know, allowing suchrestrictions.
And so, I think that wasanother reason to talk about it
in this political moment to sortof assess how that played out
in the 2024 election and whatwe're
likely to see with these ballot initiatives moving forward.
I think this also makes methink of how...smart, and I
(23:11):
really hate to give them creditfor this, but the anti-abortion
movement is, right?
They're naming things and thengetting the media to use that
language, right?
Whether it's calling themselvesthe "pro-life" movement when
all they're really focused on ismaking sure that you have the
baby, but not talking about anyother forms of support, right?
(23:33):
You just saw them making hugecuts to SNAP and Medicaid and
all of these other life-savingthings.
Things talking about "heartbeatbans" or any of these other
things that are language thatthey get the media to use, that
you have this evocative imagerythat gets to, like you said,
(23:56):
kind of like that emotion ontheir side in a way that is
great.
Devious is maybe not the rightword, but a little bit, yeah.
So that is just something that,you know, as you were talking,
like that was what was goingthrough my head, was just their
use of language to kind of swaythe conversation and pull it
(24:17):
over to their side.
Garin (24:18):
Yeah, and I think that they are successful at...
some of these things, some ofit is about, frankly, things
like message discipline, youknow, like they're very good at
that in ways that maybe wearen't always.
But which I think, you know, wecan go into details about that.
But I also think that there isthe failure of a vision being
(24:39):
put forward, I think, on bothsides to some degree.
So, like, you know, they cansay what they don't want, but,
you know, they're not reallybeing honest about what the
reality that would follow thatwould be, right?
And similarly, I don't thinkthat the—I'll call it the
pro-choice side, but thegenerally pro-abortion side, and
I mean that in an expansivesense— has in a way failed to
(25:02):
both settle on a goal and along-term vision.
And so I do think there arevisions out there that we could
fully embrace, like reproductivejustice, but I think that that
would require us to put forwarddifferent policies.
So, the policies that Amy wastalking about, these ballot
initiatives that do have linesdrawn, are not actually aligned
(25:24):
with reproductive justice.
They do not protect or allowbodily autonomy, things like
that.
And so, I think that we, youknow, we do need to start
offering people an expansivevision, but also start, when
we're talking about thesethings, you know, we don't need
to talk about, you know, ifthey're talking, if they're
(25:44):
using this very graphicinflammatory language, our
response doesn't need to be,that doesn't happen.
Because obviously that's nottrue.
What's true is that thequestion needs to be, how do you
want the government to beinvolved in that?
Right.
And so that's, I think, wherewe need to focus is like, what
do you want the government'srole to be in this?
(26:05):
It's OK if people areuncomfortable with these things.
Right.
I mean, if you described anymedical procedure in graphic
detail, people would beuncomfortable with it.
But how do you want thegovernment to interfere, to make
laws, to criminalize people, topunish providers?
Who do you want to go to jailfor this?
That's where I think ourlanguage needs to be, is really
(26:28):
talking about what is thereality they're arguing for?
What is the reality and thefuture that we're arguing for?
And put those against eachother and I think when we do
that, and we offer people anexpansive future and expansive
vision, they choose that and,like, with the ballot measures,
they're just people are votingfor what they're given so like
it's not that people wanted aline at drawn at viability but
(26:51):
that's what they were given tovote on in 2024 in a lot of
these states.
And so, I think that, you know,I think we have a lot of work
to do to sort of invest in thisvision of the future, invest in
a different role for thegovernment in this.
And I think we can do it.
Jennie (27:08):
Yeah, it makes me think when I was originally doing this
work, you know, I still had allof that.
You bathe in this like soup oflike abortion stigma that is
just like out in the world andyou just like take so much of it
on and some of it is a processof like making sure that you get
rid of any of that internalstigma that you have picked up.
And I talked about this whenErika and Garin were on the
(27:33):
podcast before, but theiramazing work that they did on
social media talking about thisand talking about why it was so
important that we got rid ofthese gestational bans.
led to me deciding that weneeded to update our 50-state
report card to not only measureup to 20 weeks, which is what we
had done in the past.
(27:53):
But when rePROs Fight Back tookover that report card, we went
all the way through like anygestational ban has to go.
And I fully credit their workthat they had done on social
media, not targeted at me orpushing on me or anything, but
just it was something that Istarted to see and think about.
And I really credit them forthat work that it helped me
(28:15):
shape my thinking and change mynot necessarily change my mind.
It's not like I had like aproblem with it, but decided we
needed to update our reportcard.
So it was more reflective ofthe reality of what the world
looked like right now.
Amy (28:27):
I have a story in the storytelling vein, a story to
piggyback on Garin's pointthere, which is when I
interviewed Garin and Erika forthis article, I told them about
the fact that I had shared, youknow, my project, what I was
doing with certain members of myfamily.
And they are pro-choice people.
(28:48):
You know, they are blue votershere in the beautiful state of
Massachusetts.
And yet when I said, yeah, Iwas watching this abortion
procedure happen at 28 weeks,and this is what it entailed.
And it starts with an injectionto stop the fetal heart.
And then, and they werehorrified that I was writing
about this.
And they felt a whole range ofcomplicated feelings about the
(29:09):
fact that abortions arehappening at that stage of
pregnancy.
And when I related this toErica, she made that point that
Garin just made about, okay,then at what point in a
pregnancy does this become acriminal matter?
At what point do people needto, we need to consider prison
time for this?
And the answer that I got,right, when I put that to the,
(29:34):
you know, one of the members ofmy family who had this strong
reaction, she was like, ofcourse, I don't want the
government involved.
Of course.
And it was like her distrust ofthe government having any say
in pregnancy outweighed whateverpersonal emotional feelings she
had about the idea of thisprocedure.
And so...
(29:55):
I think I tried in the articleto give people a little bit of
an escape valve, you know,through that argument that I
think people when they hearabout an abortion taking place,
when the fetus looks like ababy, you know, and when the
fetus is moving around inside apatient's body, and you know,
that brings up complicatedfeelings that frankly we have
(30:17):
never accommodated in ourpolitical discourse, right?
Like, a political ad doesn'ttend to have room for that sort
of nuance.
And so the stories that tend tomake it through are the ones of
catastrophic tragedy and oftena white person with a wanted
pregnancy facing a horrible, youknow, decision.
And so, you know, people cangrapple with and think through
(30:38):
the nuance and that's what thestorytelling is for.
But it also, I think thatframing around like, is this
really a criminal matter, youknow, gets to the heart of how
complicated it is to think aboutthe law colliding with the very
complex and unpredictablescience of pregnancy.
Jennie (31:01):
Yeah, I have to say, I was really shocked when we did
the report card.
The first time taking that onis how few states don't have a
gestational ban, right?
I think Amy had it in herpiece.
It was nine states in DC, or isthat nine total, don't have a
gestational ban.
That is wild.
And there are a lot of stateswhere you assume have access
(31:24):
that do have gestational bans.
And I remember being surprisedwith that as well.
Garin (31:29):
Which I love, by the way.
But I also just want to make aquick point about that, which is
that in a way, what you'redescribing and what we've been
talking about a little bitsometimes is an absence of even,
like you said, Amy,accommodating people's complex
feelings about this, but also wehaven't just talked about it.
There haven't been peopleloudly, vocally supporting it.
(31:52):
You can look at maps on the NewYork Times or on other websites
that track abortion laws, andthey just pretend that abortion
bans later in pregnancy aren'tbans.
And I think that if you thinkabout that, if you think about
the sort of pervasiveness ofthese lines drawn in the Roe
decision or whatever, theabsence of more diverse stories,
(32:16):
it makes sense that people areuncomfortable with this because
we've never tried to do anythingdifferent.
And so now what's happening isthat people are trying, people
are doing it.
You do have, it used to be alot of the providers, you know,
they were these like embattledproviders.
dudes who were like providingcare and like being shot at and
(32:38):
they were, you know, likewhatever.
And now they're just likenormal, wonderful people working
at these clinics and, andwanting to open more clinics and
more people want it.
Like people are going topartners to train.
And I think part of it is thatthis care being brought into
the light, especially byarticles like this one that
handle it so thoughtfully issuper important to this bigger
(33:01):
culture shift that has to happenwhere we do give the public the
opportunity to decide how theyfeel about it.
But we've never given themenough information to form an
opinion, frankly.
And so now what's happening isI think we're seeing a shift
there and things like changinghow we're tracking policies and
describing that, how we'representing stories about later
(33:22):
abortion and featuring theproviders and showing pictures
of people.
You know what I mean?
Instead of just like theseweird cut-off belly images or
whatever.
You know, it's like I do thinka lot of that is changing.
And so, I really appreciateboth of your work for that and
sort of our broader missionthere.
Amy (33:40):
I've been doing a lot of deep dives into history for my
book.
And I think that this questionis actually a perennial one in
the abortion rights space,right?
Dating back to the earlyseventies when abortions banned
in the majority of states, youknow, pre Roe v.
Wade, right?
And you have the question ofwhether anti-abortion bans in
(34:01):
the states should be repealed orshould they be reformed, right?
Should they be reformed sincethat doctors still have some say
over when someone should get anabortion And surely there must
be some qualification on it.
We can't just let anyone go getan abortion willy nilly for any
reason.
Right.
And then you had, you know, Ithink of people like Pat
McGinnis who were like, forgetit.
This just is an unequivocalright.
Right.
(34:21):
This is just this is, you know,autonomy.
This is feminism 101.
Come on.
And so.
I think that debate over howfar can we go and what's
politically feasible, but alsocan we really trust pregnant
people to make the decisionwithout some government
involvement, that's played outin various forms for the entire
(34:42):
time that abortion has been aconstitutional right and even
before, right?
And I think that's what's sointeresting about the question
of later abortions is that itreally gets to the root of of
what are we talking about here?
Do we trust people to make thisdecision?
Or not, you know, and ShelleySella, who wrote a book on later
abortions, that's, that's verymoving, that I cite in the
(35:04):
piece, she, of course, was oneof the few people in the country
who provided openly providedabortions in the third trimester
of pregnancy, you know, shetalks about leaving it up to
patients to determine whether apregnancy is viable, right.
And that level of trust andautonomy for pregnant people,
it's very rare to find that inour political discourse, right?
(35:28):
And I think one of the fewplaces that that unconditional
support for pregnant peopleexists is in clinics like
Partners, right?
Where actually they don't ask,why are you here?
And why are you seeking thisabortion at 28 weeks?
They just say, you know, wetrust, I mean, there's
counseling, of course, they makesure that people are confident
in their decision, but they'renot saying, And as you point
(35:50):
out, this is a rare thing, ninestates and Washington, D.C.,
where there isn't some sort oflimitation.
And so I think that's partlywhy this is so contentious,
because it really gets to theheart of the issue of how much
do we allow pregnant people tomake this decision on their own
without mediation from a judgeor a state legislator or a
doctor.
Garin (36:11):
And if you think about that for a second, it's kind of
bananas, right?
Like, it's like...
Are there other very complexdecisions that we feel like are
improved by involving thegovernment?
You know what I mean?
Not many.
So I think this is one of thosesituations where, yes, I think
it is about how much do we trustpatients?
(36:33):
How much do we trust providers?
But I think there is the otherside of that, which is like, how
much do we trust thegovernment?
And remember that thegovernment changes, and we're
not talking about lofty,super-educated judges making
these decisions.
We're talking aboutstreet-level bureaucrats making
decisions about people and aboutthe private medical care that
(36:56):
they're going to get, etc., AndI just really, I think when you
talk to someone, most people,and you sort of drill down on
that and you're like, no, no,I'm really talking about like
that guy down the street who'slike wearing a badge or whatever
is going to be the one makingthe decision.
How do you feel about that?
Or this prosecutor?
And people are like, well, Idon't like that.
(37:18):
So in that way, it's verysimple.
But I do think that part of theproblem is that we have not
given people another way tomanage their complex feelings
about this and that's truethroughout our society like we
don't have if you don't likesomething for the most part our
government's like well we caneither make it illegal or not
and that's all we have and so ithink there are other things we
(37:41):
can do providers for instancelike you know medical providers
go through all types oflicensing and stuff like that
like i can't just go startproviding these surgeries so we
don't need special laws forabortion providers We just need
the same laws that we apply toother medical procedures to
apply to abortion providers, andthat's probably it.
And that's why a lot of those,when we are talking about repeal
(38:03):
versus reform, I do really dothink we need to be in a repeal
mind space, as opposed totinkering around the edges.
And that's one of the bigconversations happening in
Massachusetts right now, whereYou know, since I think in 2019
or so, they they passed theirReproductive Health Act and like
expanded care later inpregnancy with under exceptional
(38:25):
circumstances.
And then after Dobbs, they kindof like tweaked the language a
little bit.
But people are still having toleave Massachusetts for care.
Like, you know, Massachusettshas incredible health care
available there and people arestill having to leave that state
to access care and go to placeslike partners or these other
providers.
And that's partly because theyfailed to just absolutely repeal
(38:47):
the ban.
And so now they are puttingforth a bill in this legislative
session that will just repealthe ban.
They're just like, look, wetried tinkering around it.
We tried massaging thelanguage.
It didn't work.
We're going to just fix it.
And they're the first state tosort of openly say, we're going
to repeal our viability ban thatwe had put in place because
it's not working.
And it's getting a lot ofsupport.
Jennie (39:09):
So, what do we see as the path forward?
So we talked about gettingrepeal and getting rid of some
of these things.
What are some other thingsyou're thinking about as we
build to this better future?
Garin (39:23):
I mean, I think that like when I imagine the future of
what I want this care to be, itactually looks a lot like
partners.
It looks a lot like, you know,what...
The detail in Amy's piece whereshe talks about how providers
and patients interacted, howwhen patients were feeling
emotional, there was space madefor that.
(39:44):
I know these providers.
They're incredible people.
And I think that is what I wantfor people when they need this
care.
It's really that simple.
I want someone who doesn't askwhy you're here and make
judgments about it.
I want them to be supported,whether they have complex
feelings about the care they'reabout to receive or not.
I want a provider that explainsto them what's about to happen
(40:05):
and answers their questions andtreats them with dignity and
respect.
And I also, one thing I loveabout those people featured in
that story, including Dr.
McNicholas, Dr. Villavicencio,Dr.
Horvath, Morgan Nuzzo, is thatthese are providers who are
willing to stand in theirvalues.
They're willing to stand up andsay, I am here to provide
(40:29):
compassionate care for mypatients and it is worth doing
and it's good.
So they're willing to be, tostand in front of the work that
they do.
And I think that that's thefuture that I want.
And there are other clinicsopening.
I mean, I think there's beenthis like idea that people don't
want to provide this care orthat people don't, that it's
somehow like this darkness overit.
(40:50):
But I, you know, we see more,there's more later abortion
providers than have ever existedin this country providing care.
They're younger.
They're increasingly people ofcolor, queer people opening and
owning clinics.
There's a[Valley Abortion Group] (VAG)
clinic that just opened inAlbuquerque.
They're wonderful.
We were literally just therelast week on our way back on a
(41:10):
road trip.
We stopped by and visited.
And I think that those are thekinds of things that we want to
see is we want to see statesthat say, we will not get
involved here.
We're going to let providersand patients figure it out.
And the thing is, like, all ofthese people are moral decision
makers.
Patients will navigate themoral complexity of this care.
(41:30):
Providers will navigate it.
The nurses, the office staff,the people working at abortion
clinics, at abortion funds,practical support organizations,
all of these people are doingthat.
They're showing up because theyhave wrestled with these things
and they've come out to wherethey are.
And I think that that's thefuture that I want to see is
(41:53):
where we make space for that.
We allow that to happen.
And then we kind of keep itmoving.
Let's fix some other stuff.
Amy (42:02):
Yeah.
Jennie, I would love to answeryour question by sharing some of
the stories from my piecebecause I'm not a policy person.
But I'll tell you, when I wentdown to the clinic to visit, I
assumed that I was probablygoing to get...
in touch with, that if anypatients there, if I was
fortunate that any of themwanted to talk with me and share
(42:22):
their stories, that it wasprobably going to be someone
with a fatal fetal anomaly orsomeone from a banned state who
had been forced by the laws inher home state to seek an
abortion later in pregnancy,right?
And that's because I know thestatistics around who seeks
later abortions, and I know thattends to be people who receive
new information, like adevastating fetal diagnosis, or
(42:45):
people who get pushed furtherinto pregnancy by anti-abortion
laws, right?
And so, when I showed up there,I was hoping someone would talk
to me, and I assumed it wouldbe someone in those categories.
Instead, the person who woundup being the most open with me,
who allowed me to accompany herthrough every step of her
procedure, to be there in theroom when she went through each
(43:06):
step and who shared her storyand her reasons with me, was
somebody who is statisticallynot typical.
It was somebody who lived inthe state of Maryland.
And so, Medicaid covered herabortion.
So, she was not someone who washaving to raise the thousands
of dollars that an abortionlater in pregnancy typically
costs, right?
She was someone whose mainbarrier had been her own
(43:31):
ambivalence.
She didn't know what she wantedto do.
And she took a lot of time tomake her choice.
Her name was Ayanna.
She was a mom of three.
She had a one-year-old and sheworked at a school for kids with
autism and then on the weekendsanswered phones at a pizza
place.
Her partner worked for a movingcompany.
(43:52):
And her kids, you know, herdaughter in particular, who's
five years old, noticed that shewas struggling at home.
Her daughter was trying topitch in and change her baby
brother's diapers.
And her daughter chided her andsaid, we don't need any more
babies.
When she saw that her belly wasgrowing, she said, we don't
need any more babies.
And Ayanna told me she had beenwaiting for a sign.
(44:13):
You know, as the weeks went by,she had really been agonizing
over the decision and waitingfor a sign.
And in the end, the sign washer three kids.
And once she made her decision,she radiated the sense of calm.
Like, it was just so the entireexperience, she knew what she
wanted.
She was firm.
She was one of the most sort oftranquil people I've ever
(44:36):
reported on.
And I know from talking withdoctors in states like Florida
and and Texas where people havebeen forced to live under six
week abortion bans.
I mean, Texas now has a totalban that when people are rushed
to make a decision, they can endup regretting it, right?
It's becausethey feel like the right is gonna get taken away, they rush, they make a decision, they have the abortion. People sometimes need that time.
(44:56):
And so, statistically, there isn't a huge- this is not a major reason why people seek abortions later in pregnancy. Statistically, the decision, it tends not to be. It tends to be more likely be the other factors I talked about.
But this was the person infront of me.
(45:17):
And this was the story that Ihad to tell.
And she was such a gift becauseshe was willing to share it
with me.
So I think to the extent thatpeople can connect with her, can
identify with, you know, I'm amom myself, I could really
identify.
And I was pregnant while I wasthere.
And I was a little worried,like, is the fact that I'm
pregnant going to make me feelweird about being around these
(45:40):
people who are terminating theirpregnancies?
And instead, I felt like, no, Ican connect with her even more.
Cause I've got a five-year-oldand boy, do I realize how, you
know, the wild things that theysay.
And also the fact that I woulddo anything in the entire world
to give them a good life, youknow?
And so meeting these women whoreally were motivated by the
love for the kids that they had,that really touched me.
(46:02):
And I felt like, you know, as Iwas waddling my like nauseous
self around this clinic, youknow, remembering what a toll
pregnancy takes on, on the body,I was thinking, you know, that
there really is more thatconnects us.
I love that quote about how theperson seeking an abortion and
the person having a baby, it'sthe same person at different
(46:23):
points in their lives.
And so I really felt that whenI was there.
And I really hope that peoplecan connect with Ayanna and can
understand the complexity of herstory and open their hearts and
minds to anyone who you know,who might wind up in this
position, not just the personwith, you know, it's
interesting, one of theadvocates I talked to for the
(46:45):
piece, I was like, you know, theperson who I'm featuring, you
know, most closely in the pieceis someone who, who just needed
a lot of time to make herdecision.
And it was, you know, a quote,unquote, "elective abortion,"
right?
She didn't have a terriblefetal malformation or maternal
health indication, or it hadn'ttaken her time to raise the
money because her insurancecovered it.
And the advocate said, good.
I was like, why is that good?
(47:07):
Wouldn't it be better if I had,you know, like some tragic
story to tell where it'd bereally clear to the reader that
this was needed?
And she was like, no, becausethat's, you know, that's always
been the decision dating backto, you know, in the partial
-birth, so-called "partial-birth" abortion debate.
It was the people who had, youknow, tragic circumstances with
wanted pregnancies who wereselected to sort of have some
(47:32):
semblance of making this anacceptable procedure for the
public.
And I think telling the truestory involves allowing in more
complexity and being honestabout the nuances and the real
complicated lives of the peopleinvolved.
Jennie (47:48):
I agree.
I was really touched by both ofthe stories and the stories in
Dr.
Seidel's book as well.
Those were just really stuckwith me and found them all just
so moving.
And again, the power of storiesand the more stories you tell,
the more you can show theexperience in its full breadth.
(48:09):
If you're only going to tell astory, then it's easier to fall
into that trap of telling themost tragic one that you can
find to try to move hearts andminds.
But if you're telling multiplestories, you are able to capture
that full experience in a waythat I think people are able to
connect with and see themselveswith and in many different
places.
Garin (48:30):
And I want to say one thing about that, because, you
know, our story, my family'sstory is one of those, you know,
we got a poor fetal diagnosis,we sought care for those
reasons.
And we did, as we told ourstory, in efforts to sort of
change the law in New York andthings like that, we started to
see the master narrative in away that we were reinforcing and
(48:51):
how harmful it was to otherpeople who needed care.
And so I think what we realizedis that we and other people in
the reproductive rights spaceneed to hold ourselves
accountable to that.
How do we make a safe place forpeople who sought care for
other reasons to tell theirstory?
How do we make it safer?
(49:13):
How do we make it morewelcoming?
And I think that when you lookat Democrats or mainstream
reproductive rightsorganizations, if they're
pretending this care doesn'thappen or pretending it only
happens in these very specificcircumstances, they're actually
silencing the these otherstories.
They're making it less safe forthose people to tell their
(49:34):
stories.
They're making it lesswelcoming.
And I think that that has donea real harm.
And it's kind of like areinforcing, you know, it's like
a feedback loop.
So, the reason why a lot ofAmericans are confused about why
people seek this care later inpregnancy is because of these
stories that we keep tellingthem.
And we have to expand thosestories.
And there are groups that havedone a lot of work to do that,
(49:57):
We Testify, etc., but I thinkthat there is just this absence
of those stories.
And I'm so glad that thestories that you featured in
this article weren't thosestories in that way.
And then the other person inthere, Scarlett, I think is the
name that you used, who camefrom California.
I loved that we were showingthat someone flew across this
(50:18):
huge country to get care becausethat's what she had to do to
get that care.
Amy (50:23):
So, Scarlett was a patient I profiled in the story who had
traveled from a state thatdidn't have any clinics that
offered care as late as sheneeded it.
I don't name the state whereshe's from in the piece, but she
had found out she was pregnantat 16 weeks, and she was one of
the people who had to raise$12,000 because that was how
much she needed for theabortion.
(50:44):
And then there's anotherunnamed patient in the piece who
did come from California, and Ithink many people would be
surprised to learn thatCalifornia which we probably
think of as one of the blueststates in the country, if not
the bluest, was not able to seethis person.
And she had to make her ownjourney to fly to Maryland.
And by the time she got there,she was past partner's limit.
(51:05):
And it seemed unlikely that shewas going to be able to get
care, you know, because of whereshe was gestationally at that
point.
And so, so yeah, it goes toshow you this impacts people,
even in blue states, likeMassachusetts, where I'm
sitting.
Jennie (51:21):
Okay, being conscious of everybody's time.
Let's let's get to the end.
I always like to focus on howcan our audience get involved?
Like what can our audience doto help in this moment?
Let's go to Amy first.
Amy (51:36):
I mean, I would let people know that there are abortion
funds and places that supportpeople later in pregnancy.
In particular, there's placeslike the Brigid Alliance.
Most abortion funds are alsoworking to help people later in
pregnancy who might need totravel.
And so, I would check out theplaces in your area that you
(51:59):
might be interested in donatingto or volunteering for if you
want to help people who are, youknow, in the wake of the Dobbs
decision, I've been hearing froma lot of advocates is like
there was this huge surge inrage donations in 2022.
And this huge amount of moneythat went into like helping
people travel and get access tothe care they needed.
(52:21):
And that's one of the reasonswhy the number of abortions rose
after the Dobbs decision, whichI just think is such a
testament to the strength ofthe, you know, abortion access
support networks that we have,and also to the level of public
outrage that really filled thosecoffers and made it so that
people could get, in addition tothe shifting landscape around
(52:44):
medication abortion, which is ahuge factor, I think that
helped.
But I think those donationshave begun to dry up as people's
attention has fractalized in amillion different directions
because the Trump administrationhas done that to us.
So, I would check out what'sgoing on in your local area to
see what abortion funds might beoperating and might need your
(53:06):
support.
Garin (53:07):
Yeah, and I would say, I mean, I think we need to invite
people to just loudly rejectabortion bans, all of them, like
people are doing inMassachusetts.
And I think everyday people whoare being asked to sign on to a
campaign or support somethingor legislators or advocates can
just start really asking thesereally simple questions of like,
(53:29):
does this allow a ban onabortion at any point in
pregnancy?
Does this give the governmentany control over pregnancy
decisions?
Like we just have to startasking better questions of the
things we're being asked tosupport.
and really ultimately demand akind of true reproductive
justice framework.
And we have a tool that peoplecan use to analyze policy called
(53:51):
Unpunish Pregnancy.
It's at unpunishpregnancy.com.
But I think that or other toolsor other things, and if people
have criticisms of a policy thatseems good, let's start just
having a more complexconversation about that and push
for a really, truly expansiveframework.
And I think we'll ultimately bein a better place when we
(54:13):
rebuild whatever's followingthis shitshow of an
administration.
Jennie (54:18):
I think the only thing I would add is my usual things I
like to flag around abortionfunds.
If you are able and would liketo donate to abortion funds, it
really means a lot to them ifyou are able to do monthly, even
if it's only a couple dollars,because then they know they're
getting that couple dollarsevery month.
And that helps them withbudgeting when they're thinking
(54:38):
through what they can disperseeach month.
So that makes a hugedifference.
And if you're on social media,make sure you are following your
local abortion fund or otherabortion fund you would like to
support often.
You'll see if they get somebodywho needs to travel far or have
an abortion later in pregnancy,that is really expensive.
You'll see special call outs onsocial media of, hey, we have
(55:01):
this patient and we have, it's$10,000 and we need to raise it.
I know I have contributed tothings like that.
And so I think those are just acouple of things to, if you
want to really help in thismoment, make a huge difference.
Okay, Amy, Garin, thank you somuch for being here today.
I had such a wonderful timetalking to the two of you.
Garin (55:20):
Thank you so much.
It was great.
Amy (55:21):
Thanks, Jennie.
Always great to be with you.
Garin (55:24):
And thanks for writing this article.
Amy (55:25):
And thank you for letting me interview you and draw on
your expert knowledge multipletimes.
Jennie (55:32):
Okay, y'all, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with
Garin and Amy.
I had such a great time talkingto them.
And I am so excited for Amy'sbook when it comes out.
And I am excited for our nextepisode in our series on
abortion later in pregnancy thatwill come out in August.
And otherwise, I will seeeverybody next week.
[music outro] If you have anyquestions, comments, or topics
(55:52):
you would like us to cover,always feel free to shoot me an
email.
You can reach me at Jennie,J-E-N-N-I-E, at
reprosfightback.com.
Or you can find us on socialmedia.
We're at rePROs Fight Back onFacebook and Twitter, or @repros
fb on Instagram.
If you love our podcast andwant to make sure more people
find it, take the time to rateand review us on your favorite
(56:15):
podcast platform.
And if you have any questions,or if you want to make sure to
support the podcast, you canalso donate on our website at
reprosfightback.com.
Thanks all.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com