October 28, 2025 • 37 mins
In Brazil in the 1990s, women discovered using misoprostol for safe, self-managed abortion. In 1980 in France, mifepristone was discovered and in 1988, approved. Approval in the U.S. occurred shortly thereafter, in 2000. Rebecca Kelliher, journalist and author of Just Pills: The Extraordinary Story of a Revolution in Abortion Care, sits down to talk with us about her new book exploring the history of misoprostol and mifepristone.
The comprehensive approval, and global dispersion, of misoprostol and mifepristone took decades. Yet now, the most recent numbers show that 63% of U.S. abortions are medication abortions. These medications—specifically mifepristone—are under increasing attacks, with anti-abortion actors targeting telehealth prescription. In addition, lawsuits attempting to prevent the mailing of pills to states with abortion bans are becoming more frequent. While these attacks are devastating, we can look to Latin America for hope: in Argentina, underground feminist organizations formed to disperse misoprostol while the country faced a near-total abortion ban.
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Episode Transcript
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Jennie (00:31):
At the turn of the 20th century, the federal Comstock
Act made it illegal to sendinformation about sex,
contraception, and abortionthrough the U.S.
mail.
But a little-known feministpioneer and sex educator named
Ida Craddock challenged that lawand its namesake, the
evangelical vice hunter, AnthonyComstock.
Defending the right of a womanto control her own body, she
(00:53):
risked everything.
Sex Radical is a newdocumentary drama that tells the
story of Ida Craddock'schallenge to the oppressive
Comstock regime.
And it shows parallels betweenpast and present.
Today, as right-wing lawmakersseek to ban medication abortion
using the very same Comstock lawthat Craddock once defied, her
(01:13):
story is more important thanever.
You can stream this timely andinspiring film for free for a
limited time between October31st and November 4th.
Go to bit.ly/sexradicalstreamto learn more.
And we'll also have it linkedin our show notes.
(01:35):
Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, apodcast on all things related to
sexual and reproductive health,rights, and justice.
Hey rePROs, how's everybodydoing?
I'm your host, Jennie Wetter,and my pronouns are she/her.
So, y'all, I am still trying toget back in the swing of things
after being back from myvacation.
(01:56):
I also received a parting giftfrom my vacation, which is the
cold that was going around ourgroup, which is so unfair,
y'all.
I had allergy problems inVenice and had to be sick while
we were in Venice and thendealing with the tail end of
allergies the rest of the trip.
And now I got the cold that wasgoing around.
(02:17):
So unfair.
So, I'm trying to get rid ofthis cough, and I sound really
disgusting, and I'm sorry,y'all.
I will try not to cough onmike.
And I'm sure Meg will editaround it if it happens, but so
unfair.
But I've been having a lot offun.
I'm going through all of thepictures I took on my camera.
(02:38):
I am only like two days intothe trip because I went a little
picture happy, which honestlyI'm fine with because you have
to take a lot to get a coupleamazing ones.
And it looks like I have somereally good pictures, and I'm
very excited to see them all andshare them with our group that
went and figure out what I wantto get printed and where I want
(02:58):
to put them and all the things.
You know, maybe I'll have Elenashare some on social because I
took a lot while I was gone.
And so you can see some of myfun trip.
I am still thinking about someof the food I ate, and now that
I am back to cooking for myself,I'm a little bummed.
There's not that amazing pizzaon every corner or this amazing
(03:23):
truffle carbonara I had in, Ithink we were still in Rome.
I don't remember.
Again, the the hazard withgoing all over the places is I
can't remember where thingshappened, but it was so
delightful and so good.
And the other thing I thinkabout a lot is when we were in,
(03:45):
I think Amalfi.
When I had as much gelato as Icould eat, I like I had it
everywhere almost every daybecause it was so good.
And who doesn't love ice cream?
Come on.
But on Amalfi, they had theplace we stopped had amazing
gelato.
I had one that was calledAmalfi.
(04:06):
It was like lemon and someother things in it.
I don't remember other than itwas amazing.
And then I got a melon one,which y'all, it was so good.
It was like the juiciest bestmelon you have ever eaten as a
gelato.
I want to go back and like eatall of it.
(04:29):
It was so good.
Anyway, can you tell I'm stillthinking about vacation as I am
like now a week back into workand like dealing with all of the
actual work things like mydumpster fire of an email or
scrambling to read the book fortoday's interview.
I forgot to take the book onvacation with me, like I had it
(04:50):
intended, to try and do somereading of it, like while we
were on the trains and stuff.
And I absolutely forgot, whichwas fortuitous.
That means I did not thinkabout work very much while I was
on vacation, which was verydelightful to just be
disconnected from all of thethings.
But it also meant I had to likereally buckle down when I got
back and read the book, whichwas amazing.
(05:13):
I really loved it, and I'm veryexcited for y'all to hear this
week's interview.
And I highly recommend the bookon the history of the abortion
pill.
It's called Just Pills (05:22):
The Extraordinary Story of a
Revolution in Abortion Care byRebecca Kelliher.
And y'all, it's great.
I can't wait for y'all to hearmy conversation with her.
And you know what?
Let's just go to my interviewwith Rebecca.
Hi, Rebecca.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Rebecca (05:40):
Thank you for having me.
Jennie (05:41):
Before we get started, would you like to take a second
and introduce yourself?
Rebecca (05:45):
Sure.
I'm Rebecca Kelliher.
I'm a journalist and the authorof the new book, Just Pills:
The Extraordinary Story of aRevolution in Abortion Care,
which traces the history ofmifepristone and misoprostol as
abortion pills.
Jennie (06:01):
I was just telling you before we started that I really
loved your book.
I feel like I learned so much.
I was not doing this work whenthe approvals were first
starting.
And I remember seeing like thescare headlines around RU 486
when I was pretty young.
Maybe when I was still going toCatholic school.
Like, I feel like I justremember seeing them out there.
(06:22):
So, and then it was really alsofascinating then to start to
get to see all the people that Ilike work with popping up later
in the book.
So, it was also verydelightful.
Oh, that's great.
Yeah, yeah.
Rebecca (06:32):
I'm so glad to hear it.
Jennie (06:33):
I also think I loved how you opened the book and the
story from Brazil.
So, maybe would you like toshare that?
Because I think that was such agreat opening story.
Rebecca (06:43):
Yeah, it's a really fascinating and I think
empowering story in many ways,which is looking at kind of the
other abortion pill.
I think in the US, there's aunderstandably a lot of
attention on mifepristone, andwe can get into why.
But misoprostol has this wholeother history.
And basically, that medicationwas initially approved to treat
(07:04):
stomach ulcers many, many yearsago.
And abortion was this sideeffect that the pharmaceutical
company knew about and put on awarning label for the
medication.
Basically, don't use this pillif you're pregnant.
And the story there is becauseit wasn't considered an abortion
(07:25):
pill, misoprostol was availableover the counter in pharmacies
in many parts of the world.
And it just so happened that inBrazil in the early 1990s,
women there who were livingunder a near-total abortion ban
discovered there were thesemedications over the counter in
pharmacies.
And oh look, there's thiswarning label that says don't
(07:47):
use when pregnant.
Well, if I'm pregnant and Idon't want to be and I don't
have other avenues, what willhappen if I try to take these
pills?
And so women started to takethe medications and had safe
abortions, and they got so goodat taking the medications that
the maternal mortality rateactually lowered in certain
(08:08):
parts of Brazil.
And that's really when itcaught the attention of
researchers and of the Braziliangovernment, which was really
not happy about what was goingon with misoprostol and pretty
much took it off of pharmacyshelves and restricted it.
And still today, Brazil hassome of the worst restrictions
in the world on misoprostol forabortion care.
(08:30):
But I think the inspiring partof that story is the way in
which women themselves andpregnant capable people
themselves figured out that thiswas a safe medication that they
could use and that they helpedspread the word among
themselves.
Jennie (08:45):
Yeah, I really love that the researchers were like, this
is so weird.
The maternal mortality rate iscoming down so much.
Like, what is happening?
Yeah, I wonder why.
And women were doing it forthemselves.
I just that was such a greatopening, and I really loved it.
I do global and domestic work,so like it hit all of my
buttons.
Rebecca (09:05):
Yeah, and still today, misoprostol is used in many
parts of the world that do stillhave abortion bans where
mifepristone isn't as available,but you can sometimes get
misoprostol and have a safeabortion just with that
medication.
So yeah, we have a lot to thankfor the women of Brazil in the
early 1990s.
Jennie (09:25):
So, I mean, a lot of the book is really focused on the
history of mifepristone.
And I really enjoyed thatbecause there was so much that
happened before I was involvedin this movement.
And so it was so great to hearthose stories.
And I know, again, it's like ahuge chunk of the book, so we're
(09:46):
obviously we're not gonna getinto all of that, but to me, we
want to talk a little bit aboutkind of this long and winding
path to get mifepristone onshelves or in the pharmacy.
Rebecca (09:55):
Yeah, it was definitely a long and winding path.
So, the story with mifepristoneis that there was this French
pharmaceutical company calledRoussel Uclaf, and they
discovered mifepristone prettymuch by accident in 1980.
They were not looking for anabortion pill at all.
(10:16):
And when they realized that itwas an abortion pill, certain
parts of the company liketotally freaked out.
But there were some otheradvocates within the company and
especially outside of thecompany who saw the huge
potential for this medicationand fought really hard for the
company to pursue tons ofresearch on the pill.
(10:37):
And basically, after many, manyyears of research and advocacy,
1988, France approvesmifepristone for medication
abortions.
And then there was huge dramabecause Roussel Uclaf— that
company that had the patent formifepristone— basically
withdrew mifepristone from theFrench market, even though
(10:57):
France had already approved it.
And that caused that led tofront-page mainstream press
coverage.
And there's this famous momentwhere the French Minister of
Health at the time comes forwardand says, no, no, no,
Roussel Uclaf, you can't dothis.
Mifepristone, it's not theproperty of a drug company.
It is, quote, "the moralproperty of women." I love that.
(11:19):
And so then they forced, yeah,they forced the company to put
mifepristone back on the market.
And mifepristone also, I thinkyou mentioned this earlier, it
was known at that time as RU486,which basically the RU stands
Roussel Uclaf, and 486 is justlike the 486th molecule that the
(11:42):
company discovered.
But that's what they meant.
And then after the Frenchapproval of mifepristone in
1988, there's this whole othersaga, which I can quickly go
into, which is okay, well, whatabout the US?
We know, right, that the FDAapproval for mifepristone here
didn't happen until 2000.
But people were working hard onthis medication going back to
(12:05):
the '80s.
And pretty much in a nutshell,the resistance to getting the
abortion pill or mifepristonehere in the US came down to the
potential that both thepro-choice movement at that time
saw and the anti-abortionmovement for this medication to
radically expand abortionaccess.
(12:26):
And at that time, there'srising anti-abortion extremist
violence in the US, targetingabortion clinics.
You have the firstassassination of an abortion
provider that happens in 1993,so just a few years after
mifepristone, you know, comesonto the French market.
(12:47):
So, all of that reallyheightens the tension for trying
to get this pill into the US.
And I can go into more detailabout that, but I think what's
really important is tounderstand the promise that this
pill held and the hopes that somany feminists had for it.
And then the reality once itdid actually get approved in
(13:09):
2000, but the FDA put a lot ofrestrictions on the medication
that really did limit access foryou know 20 years.
Jennie (13:17):
Yeah, I think I didn't have a great understanding of
all of the guidelines that werein place at the beginning
because of the way it was testedwith requiring three visits and
stuff.
Like I came into this worklater when um that had been
shortened.
So, it was shocking.
(13:38):
And it even started before,didn't you say, with four at one
point?
And that's crazy.
Rebecca (13:46):
Yeah.
When France rolled outmifepristone, you know, or as
part of medication abortion,they had four clinic visits
required for people, which isnuts when you think about it
today with telehealth abortion,and you don't have to have a
clinic visit at all.
So, it's definitely a lot ofanxiety that the government had,
(14:08):
that providers had at the time,around, oh my gosh, women
having abortions with thesepills by themselves, what does
that mean?
And in hindsight, it does seemridiculous.
But I think it's also importantto keep in mind that some of
the worries really were thatthey had to be so careful in the
(14:30):
very beginning because there'sso much fear that if one thing
went wrong or was perceived asgoing wrong, that would be it
for the medication.
So that's something that cameup as well as my reporting with
talking with some of the firstFrench doctors, for instance,
who did the very first trialswith mifepristone.
Jennie (14:47):
Yeah, I that makes total sense for like the logic behind
it.
I think the other story thatwas, I felt like was very much
in parallel to the story youwere telling was women not being
in these spaces as we weregoing through the approval
processes.
Or maybe there was one womanwho was on a research team or a
(15:10):
policy team.
And that really jumped out tome as we were following the
approval process along forthinking about how women would
use or how what guardrailsneeded to be around it.
Rebecca (15:24):
Yeah, that was something that also really stood
out to me in the reportingprocess.
And I write a lot about thisone researcher, Dr.
Beverly Winikoff, who is one ofthe only women who is
researching the medication herein the US.
And she testified during theFDA's advisory committee hearing
on Mifepristone, which was in1996.
(15:45):
And it was pretty much todecide just based on the
science, just based on the data,is this a safe medication?
And what was really fascinatingto me is what Dr. Winikoff's
research was really focusing onwell, what do women actually
think about these pills?
Like, who've actually takenthem?
What are how do they describethe experiences in their own
(16:08):
words?
And that was like not, that wassort of like an addendum almost
to the whole FDA considerationof the medication, which is sort
of fascinating, um, that thatwouldn't be considered more
central, but it kind of wasn't.
And it just so happened that alot of people who took the
medications preferred it to, orat least said that they
(16:29):
preferred it to having aprocedural abortion.
Jennie (16:31):
I think the other thing that really stood out because it
was like so early in theprocess were all of the hopes
advocates had at the time asthey were first talking about
it, and then to see like wherewe are now, it was just so
striking.
Rebecca (16:47):
Yeah, I write about there is this Time magazine
cover in 1993 that was aboutmifepristone and it said: "The
pill that changes everything."And the truth is it didn't, at
least not at that point.
And now we're seeing a reallydifferent story, but it took a
very long time to get here.
(17:08):
But I think that's somethingthat came up a lot with the
interviews I did with theseearly advocates and early
researchers of the medicationsis it's like it's gratifying to
see that finally, finally, thepotential we talked about is
being reached, where now morethan two-thirds of abortions in
the US are done with pills.
We know that one in fourabortions in the US are provided
(17:31):
via telehealth abortion.
But boy, that took a reallylong time.
It's, like, 25 years almost,you know?
Jennie (17:40):
Yeah.
And it just the world they werethinking of where women could
just very easily have access.
And reading that and hearingthose hopes and being seeing how
far away we were— and it's inmany ways still are— was really
striking.
Rebecca (17:56):
Yeah, something that was striking to me too was like
a big hope that those earlyadvocates had was that there
would be kind of once you hadthe FDA approval from
mifepristone, you could roll outmedication abortion, that
surely then any doctor couldprescribe these pills, right?
You did it wouldn't have to benecessarily the person at the
(18:18):
abortion clinic.
It could be the opium that youusually see, or it could be your
family medicine doctor, yourprimary care doctor.
There was just all of this hopethat that would happen.
And it just didn't, sadly.
And there are lots of reasonsthat came up in my reporting as
for why that could be, but oneof it did have to do with stigma
(18:41):
around abortion and beinglabeled as the abortion provider
in your community and what thatwould mean for you and your
family, which is really sad, butis part of the history.
Jennie (18:54):
Yeah.
Thinking of like being able tojust go to your family care
provider and get access, likethat's amazing.
One, if you want to go like themedical route, right?
Like, you talk aboutself-managed abortion and things
as well, but just thinking itcould be so easy, it's again
very different world than wherewe're at at the moment.
(19:16):
And you talked about like howimportant pills have become,
right?
They are the majority ofabortions right now, but we are
also seeing pills come underattack, particularly
mifepristone right now.
Do you want to talk a littlebit about what we're seeing with
that as well?
Rebecca (19:33):
Yes.
So because mifepristone, like Isaid before, that's the pill
that's registered for abortionsrather than misoprostol, it's
mifepristone that is moresubject to anti-abortion
attacks, at least right now,because there's a more
straightforward path tocontrolling them or attempting
to control them.
And so we're seeing differentprongs of attacks right now, one
(19:57):
of which is to pressure the FDAto basically get rid of
telehealth abortion nationwide.
The way how that would work, itwould basically require the
agency to ignore the data thatthey based that initial decision
on, which was first madetemporarily in 2021 because of
(20:19):
the COVID-19 pandemic, and thenwas made permanent in 2023.
And so we've seen the safety oftelehealth abortion in this
country since then, right?
So it would really be a huge,huge move if the agency uh
decided to go back on what ithad already decided.
But we also see that RFK Jr.,the current Secretary of Health
(20:42):
and Human Services, has beenpressuring the FDA to pretty
much do just that.
The other thing that I want tohighlight is there, and I know
that you've had people on thispodcast before talk at length
about this, but the attacks withlitigation to try to stop what
are called telehealth abortionshield laws in certain states.
And states that have those lawson the books, I believe there
(21:05):
are about eight states right nowthat have them, they lower the
legal risk for the providers inthose states to mail abortion
pills to people who are based instates with abortion bans or
severe abortion restrictions.
And we know that they'remailing thousands of pills a
month to people, and themajority of those pills are
(21:29):
going to people living in bannedstates.
But we are seeing lawsuitsagainst those laws, against
those telehealth abortion shieldlaws.
We don't know what will happennext, but those are two avenues
that the anti-abortion movementis trying to pursue.
In addition to just spreadingthe misinformation, or I should
(21:50):
say, disinformation, that thesepills are unsafe, which is not
true.
Jennie (21:55):
And I think one of the things your book really makes
clear is just how heavilystudied and how much research
there is around the safety ofthese pills.
Rebecca (22:05):
Yeah.
So, I think that's somethingthat maybe sometimes people
based here in the US kind offorget is it's not just the like
amount of research that we havehere in this country.
It's when you look at all ofthe research globally that we
(22:27):
also have about the safety ofthese medications and just how
ridiculous it actually is to saythat they cause harm.
Jennie (22:34):
Yeah.
And I think the other thing,like, yes, we're also seeing the
attacks on the shield laws, butthe case that went to the
Supreme Court last year is notdead, right?
Like it's being, it still couldcome back.
And again, would attack accessto the FDA approval of those
expanded um uh telehealthoptions.
(22:58):
And something abortionadvocates know and the anti's,
I'm sure, know, is that whatthat would mean for access to
abortion in this country is justhow absolutely devastating it
would be.
We do not have theinfrastructure if we have to go
back to all these in-personvisits to ensure that people who
need the abortion can get it.
Rebecca (23:21):
Absolutely.
And I'm glad you brought upthat case, the Alliance for
Hippocratic Medicine v.
FDA case, I believe that's whatit's called.
But what's important to note, Ithink, about that is the
Supreme Court, they dismissedthat case last year, but they
dismissed it on standing, not onthe merits of the case.
Jennie (23:41):
What the dentist didn't have standing.
Rebecca (23:46):
And so that's just so important to keep in mind
because it basically is kind oflike allowed for them to have a
bit of a loophole that theycould exploit if the right case
comes before the court.
And the same justices thatdecided Dobbs might then
basically, as you just said, tryto stop telehealth abortion
nationwide.
So yeah, I'm glad that you'rebringing attention to that.
Jennie (24:09):
I think the other thing that was really great about your
book is you you followed theprocess of mife, but you also
then went back to various, inparticular Latin American
countries, talking about whatwas happening there and how
access was expanding there.
Do we want to touch on that fora little bit?
Because I also think that is areally important story.
Rebecca (24:28):
Yeah, that's super important and also I think
pretty inspiring.
So kind of like what we weretalking about before with
misoprostol being generally moreavailable than mifepristone.
I write about a couple ofcountries in Latin America, but
mainly about Mexico andArgentina.
And I'll just highlightArgentina, I think.
(24:51):
So they people there had a neartotal abortion ban until pretty
recently, until 2020, where nowabortion is banned up until 14
weeks with some restrictions aswell for later abortion care.
But what I write about is howthere are these feminist
networks that grew in Argentinawhile under a near-total
(25:15):
abortion ban.
And they really flourished inthe 2010s using misoprostol—
and mifepristone if they couldget it— but misoprostol was, you
could still find that in somepharmacies.
And what's amazing to me isjust how organized they were,
and it started out more as aharm reduction strategy: like,
how do we get people safe careunder this ban with these pills
(25:40):
for now, while we want to alsochange the law and make this
legal?
And they still, theSocorristas en Red, that's the
name of this feminist activistnetwork, they still are
operating right now and theystill are supporting people
through their abortions withpills.
But something else that's likesuper amazing to me about this
(26:01):
network is they actuallycontributed to our understanding
of abortion pills.
And they were very deliberateabout partnering with
epidemiologists, withresearchers to try to document
their work and to expand ourknowledge of safe, self-managed
(26:23):
abortion care with misoprostolonly or misoprostol and
mifepristone.
And their research was soinfluential that it helped shape
the current World HealthOrganization guidelines for
abortion care with pills, whichbasically state that you
actually, if you are using thepills early in pregnancy and you
(26:46):
have the right protocols, theright information, which the
World Health Organization hasavailable, you don't need to
have the support of a licensedclinician with you.
It's different if you wantthat, but you can still have a
safe and effective abortionwithout that.
And we are a long, long wayhere in the US, I think, from
that potential ofover-the-counter abortion pills,
(27:09):
which is really what that wouldbe.
But the evidence that we have,you know, from the World Health
Organization, thanks in largepart to the brave work of these
activists in Argentina and inother parts of the world,
really, I think points to afuture where that could actually
be a possibility.
And in some ways, you know,that would bring us back to the
(27:30):
misoprostol origin story, wherewomen in Brazil had misoprostol
over the counter.
So yeah, things that we canwork towards.
Jennie (27:40):
I'm really glad you brought up the World Health
Organization guidelines becausethat was so important.
Not only did it outline the twodifferent protocols— so, the
mife and miso one and themisoprostol-only one— but it
also talked about that thereshouldn't be bans restricting,
gestational bans, there shouldnot be bans restricting
(28:01):
coverage.
It was really amazing to seethe World Health Organization
take such a strong stance whenthere had been reluctance
before.
Rebecca (28:10):
Yeah, and I think that also just highlights how the US
really is globally such anoutlier with having regressed on
abortion rights in thiscountry.
Jennie (28:23):
So, I think the other thing that would be nice to hear
about is what can the US learnfrom the Latin American
countries you talked about?
We've talked about on thepodcast before about what we can
learn from the green wavemovement, but this is a little
bit different.
Like, what can we learn abouthow they were able to ensure
(28:43):
people were getting pills whenthere were bans?
Rebecca (28:46):
I've thought about this a lot because it's I think
what's important is it's notlike a copy-paste kind of
situation.
And yeah, you were pretty clearabout that.
Like, the ban there was, like,a little bit different.
Basically, the criminalizationthreats that these networks were
(29:06):
facing are not like whatnetworks here in the US are
facing in states with abortionbans like Texas and Alabama.
But I think that the maintakeaway that I had from
networks like Socorristas inArgentina is they built strong
(29:27):
alliances with people in thehealthcare sector and the legal
sector to try to protectthemselves and the people that
they were helping.
And they were reallycontextually aware.
So, they just were verydeliberate about the security
concerns and trying to protectthe confidentiality of the
(29:47):
people that they helped.
And I think that is somethingthat I know from my reporting
that some of the on-the-groundcommunity networks here in the
US that face really highcriminalization risks have taken
a lot of lessons from in justbeing really careful and
deliberate with their alliances.
(30:08):
Yeah, and I think that there'salso something kind of beautiful
about all of these networksseeing themselves as part of
this larger global movement andthis sense of solidarity, which
especially now in this country,um, you know, with so much that
can feel overwhelming anddemoralizing, I think that alone
(30:30):
can be really powerful.
Jennie (30:32):
Yeah, it's so great to feel part of a bigger movement
and that we are all working tothese same ends.
I also really loved theimportance of sharing
information and making sure thatpeople have the information
they need.
And even if you can't supplythe pills, you're helping people
(30:52):
find where they can get them orknowing what the protocols are,
like everybody kind of hastheir role to play in this
moment.
And I mean, obviously I host apodcast, so I think information
is important in making sure thatpeople know these things.
So we'll definitely make sureto link um in our show notes the
WHO protocol so that everybodyhas it on hand.
(31:13):
But yeah, it's always justimportant to get the information
out there.
Rebecca (31:17):
Yeah, and I should have also mentioned something that
was really important to a lot ofthese networks that I write
about in the book was to try todestigmatize abortion with
one-on-one real conversationswith people who they themselves
are having an abortion orconsidering one, or somebody in
their life has, and just tryingto make it less scary.
(31:40):
And I think, you know, LasLibres in Mexico, which is one
accompaniment network, Iinterviewed them, and they some
of their members were talkingabout how they noticed that
sometimes the stigma aroundabortion from the people that
they were accompanying what wentback to a lack of information,
(32:00):
like went back to fears, like,oh my gosh, if I take these
medications, I'm gonna die orsomething.
And that it was all connected.
So I think that's alsosomething that we can all learn
from.
Jennie (32:12):
Yeah, I feel like I see this in a different way, like
earlier in the in this career,seeing all of the reasons why
people, particularly insub-Saharan Africa, were not
using like family planning, likeall of the fears and myths and
misinformation that werefloating around that were
(32:33):
keeping people from usingsomething that they maybe wanted
to use.
And that's powerful.
And again, you know, Imentioned I went to Catholic
school, so like you definitelyget steeped in that stigma.
One, everywhere, like abortabortion stigma is kind of
everywhere, but also growing upgoing to Catholic school from K
(32:54):
through eight, meant that therewas just like a bunch of it that
floated around.
So when you know, when thosearticles about mife were first
coming out, I was in Catholicschool.
And so were the articles reallysuper negative on that, or was
that like what I was hearingreflected being in Catholic
school at the time?
Rebecca (33:16):
Yeah, I went to Catholic school too, so I
understand.
Jennie (33:20):
Yeah.
I had sex ed from a nun.
"Sex ed"— heavily air quoted—from a nun.
Lots of stories there, I'msure.
Super helpful, super helpful.
Okay, so we always like to endthe podcast focusing on things
our audience can do.
So, how can the audience getinvolved in this moment?
Rebecca (33:42):
Well, I'm sure your audience is super well informed
already, but I will just say tryto get involved with your local
abortion fund in some way.
It doesn't have to meandonating, but that would be
great.
It could also meanvolunteering.
They're still around andthey're still supporting a lot
of people.
And we saw a big surge indonations to abortion funds
(34:05):
right after Dobbs, but there hasbeen really important reporting
on how we've seen a lot of thatdry up, basically, as like once
that rage giving, so to speak,has kind of slowed down.
So don't forget about them.
I think something else peoplecan do is talk about abortion
with the people in your life ifyou haven't already tried to do
(34:26):
that.
I found out there was this KFFsurvey that came out last year
that said that only one in fivewomen of reproductive age in the
US know that they can getabortion pills online.
So, that's pretty low.
So, I think that you might besurprised that people around you
don't actually have basicinformation about the different
(34:48):
avenues to get pills or justabortion care in general.
And then I'd also say if you'rein a position where you feel
comfortable doing so, safe doingso, look into advanced
provision of pills.
This is basically where you canget abortion pills prescribed
and mailed to you to have aroundjust in case.
(35:10):
Um, and you can get it fromtrusted sources like Aid Access.
If you're not sure about likethe legal risks of you doing so,
perhaps, depending on where youlive, I'd encourage you to call
If/When/How's Repro LegalHelpline.
They will give free andconfidential legal advice
depending on your situation.
(35:31):
And you can turn to Plan C orto I Need An A to just
understand all of your abortionaccess options.
Jennie (35:40):
I always like to talk about how important it is to
make yourself a resource foryour community and your network.
And that does not mean you needto know all the things.
But if you have a friend whocomes to you, you maybe know
where to point them, right?
You don't need to know wherepeople can go to this specific
(36:02):
place to buy abortion pills, butyou know about Plan C pills, or
you can point them to if whenhow if they have questions.
You don't need to be able toanswer them, but knowing these
resources is really important.
So when people ask questions,you can send them to the right
places to get the help theyneed.
I love that.
Rebecca, thank you so much forbeing here.
(36:22):
It was such a pleasure to talkto you and congratulations on
your book.
It was really great.
Rebecca (36:27):
Thank you so much.
It was such a pleasure to behere.
Jennie (36:30):
Okay, y'all.
I hope you enjoyed myconversation with Rebecca.
Like I said, we'll make sure tohave a link to her book on
Bookshop.
I do really recommend it.
I loved learning so much moreabout the history of abortion
pills.
It was just so fascinating anda great story.
We will also make sure to linkin the show notes some of the
(36:52):
places she mentioned, like AidAccess, Plan C Pills; we'll
include the WHO protocol aswell.
So we'll have a bunch ofinformation for you so that you
can find everything you need allin one place.
And with that, I will seeeverybody next week.
If you have any questions,comments, or topics you would
like us to cover, always feelfree to shoot me an email.
(37:14):
You can reach me at jennie@reprosfightback.com, or you can
find us on social media or atrePROs Fight Back on Facebook
and Twitter, or @reprosfb onInstagram.
If you love our podcast andwant to make sure more people
find it, take the time to rateand review us on your favorite
podcast platform.
(37:35):
Or if you want to make sure tosupport the podcast, you can
also donate on our website atreprosfightback.com.
Thanks all.
At the turn of the 20th century, the federal Comstock
Act made it illegal to sendinformation about sex,
contraception, and abortionthrough the U.S.
mail.
But a little-known feministpioneer and sex educator named
Ida Craddock challenged that lawand its namesake, the
evangelical vice hunter, AnthonyComstock.
Defending the right of a womanto control her own body, she
(00:53):
risked everything.
Sex Radical is a newdocumentary drama that tells the
story of Ida Craddock'schallenge to the oppressive
Comstock regime.
And it shows parallels betweenpast and present.
Today, as right-wing lawmakersseek to ban medication abortion
using the very same Comstock lawthat Craddock once defied, her
(01:13):
story is more important thanever.
You can stream this timely andinspiring film for free for a
limited time between October31st and November 4th.
Go to bit.ly/sexradicalstreamto learn more.
And we'll also have it linkedin our show notes.
(01:35):
Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, apodcast on all things related to
sexual and reproductive health,rights, and justice.
Hey rePROs, how's everybodydoing?
I'm your host, Jennie Wetter,and my pronouns are she/her.
So, y'all, I am still trying toget back in the swing of things
after being back from myvacation.
(01:56):
I also received a parting giftfrom my vacation, which is the
cold that was going around ourgroup, which is so unfair,
y'all.
I had allergy problems inVenice and had to be sick while
we were in Venice and thendealing with the tail end of
allergies the rest of the trip.
And now I got the cold that wasgoing around.
(02:17):
So unfair.
So, I'm trying to get rid ofthis cough, and I sound really
disgusting, and I'm sorry,y'all.
I will try not to cough onmike.
And I'm sure Meg will editaround it if it happens, but so
unfair.
But I've been having a lot offun.
I'm going through all of thepictures I took on my camera.
(02:38):
I am only like two days intothe trip because I went a little
picture happy, which honestlyI'm fine with because you have
to take a lot to get a coupleamazing ones.
And it looks like I have somereally good pictures, and I'm
very excited to see them all andshare them with our group that
went and figure out what I wantto get printed and where I want
(02:58):
to put them and all the things.
You know, maybe I'll have Elenashare some on social because I
took a lot while I was gone.
And so you can see some of myfun trip.
I am still thinking about someof the food I ate, and now that
I am back to cooking for myself,I'm a little bummed.
There's not that amazing pizzaon every corner or this amazing
(03:23):
truffle carbonara I had in, Ithink we were still in Rome.
I don't remember.
Again, the the hazard withgoing all over the places is I
can't remember where thingshappened, but it was so
delightful and so good.
And the other thing I thinkabout a lot is when we were in,
(03:45):
I think Amalfi.
When I had as much gelato as Icould eat, I like I had it
everywhere almost every daybecause it was so good.
And who doesn't love ice cream?
Come on.
But on Amalfi, they had theplace we stopped had amazing
gelato.
I had one that was calledAmalfi.
(04:06):
It was like lemon and someother things in it.
I don't remember other than itwas amazing.
And then I got a melon one,which y'all, it was so good.
It was like the juiciest bestmelon you have ever eaten as a
gelato.
I want to go back and like eatall of it.
(04:29):
It was so good.
Anyway, can you tell I'm stillthinking about vacation as I am
like now a week back into workand like dealing with all of the
actual work things like mydumpster fire of an email or
scrambling to read the book fortoday's interview.
I forgot to take the book onvacation with me, like I had it
(04:50):
intended, to try and do somereading of it, like while we
were on the trains and stuff.
And I absolutely forgot, whichwas fortuitous.
That means I did not thinkabout work very much while I was
on vacation, which was verydelightful to just be
disconnected from all of thethings.
But it also meant I had to likereally buckle down when I got
back and read the book, whichwas amazing.
(05:13):
I really loved it, and I'm veryexcited for y'all to hear this
week's interview.
And I highly recommend the bookon the history of the abortion
pill.
It's called Just Pills (05:22):
The Extraordinary Story of a
Revolution in Abortion Care byRebecca Kelliher.
And y'all, it's great.
I can't wait for y'all to hearmy conversation with her.
And you know what?
Let's just go to my interviewwith Rebecca.
Hi, Rebecca.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Rebecca (05:40):
Thank you for having me.
Jennie (05:41):
Before we get started, would you like to take a second
and introduce yourself?
Rebecca (05:45):
Sure.
I'm Rebecca Kelliher.
I'm a journalist and the authorof the new book, Just Pills:
The Extraordinary Story of aRevolution in Abortion Care,
which traces the history ofmifepristone and misoprostol as
abortion pills.
Jennie (06:01):
I was just telling you before we started that I really
loved your book.
I feel like I learned so much.
I was not doing this work whenthe approvals were first
starting.
And I remember seeing like thescare headlines around RU 486
when I was pretty young.
Maybe when I was still going toCatholic school.
Like, I feel like I justremember seeing them out there.
(06:22):
So, and then it was really alsofascinating then to start to
get to see all the people that Ilike work with popping up later
in the book.
So, it was also verydelightful.
Oh, that's great.
Yeah, yeah.
Rebecca (06:32):
I'm so glad to hear it.
Jennie (06:33):
I also think I loved how you opened the book and the
story from Brazil.
So, maybe would you like toshare that?
Because I think that was such agreat opening story.
Rebecca (06:43):
Yeah, it's a really fascinating and I think
empowering story in many ways,which is looking at kind of the
other abortion pill.
I think in the US, there's aunderstandably a lot of
attention on mifepristone, andwe can get into why.
But misoprostol has this wholeother history.
And basically, that medicationwas initially approved to treat
(07:04):
stomach ulcers many, many yearsago.
And abortion was this sideeffect that the pharmaceutical
company knew about and put on awarning label for the
medication.
Basically, don't use this pillif you're pregnant.
And the story there is becauseit wasn't considered an abortion
(07:25):
pill, misoprostol was availableover the counter in pharmacies
in many parts of the world.
And it just so happened that inBrazil in the early 1990s,
women there who were livingunder a near-total abortion ban
discovered there were thesemedications over the counter in
pharmacies.
And oh look, there's thiswarning label that says don't
(07:47):
use when pregnant.
Well, if I'm pregnant and Idon't want to be and I don't
have other avenues, what willhappen if I try to take these
pills?
And so women started to takethe medications and had safe
abortions, and they got so goodat taking the medications that
the maternal mortality rateactually lowered in certain
(08:08):
parts of Brazil.
And that's really when itcaught the attention of
researchers and of the Braziliangovernment, which was really
not happy about what was goingon with misoprostol and pretty
much took it off of pharmacyshelves and restricted it.
And still today, Brazil hassome of the worst restrictions
in the world on misoprostol forabortion care.
(08:30):
But I think the inspiring partof that story is the way in
which women themselves andpregnant capable people
themselves figured out that thiswas a safe medication that they
could use and that they helpedspread the word among
themselves.
Jennie (08:45):
Yeah, I really love that the researchers were like, this
is so weird.
The maternal mortality rate iscoming down so much.
Like, what is happening?
Yeah, I wonder why.
And women were doing it forthemselves.
I just that was such a greatopening, and I really loved it.
I do global and domestic work,so like it hit all of my
buttons.
Rebecca (09:05):
Yeah, and still today, misoprostol is used in many
parts of the world that do stillhave abortion bans where
mifepristone isn't as available,but you can sometimes get
misoprostol and have a safeabortion just with that
medication.
So yeah, we have a lot to thankfor the women of Brazil in the
early 1990s.
Jennie (09:25):
So, I mean, a lot of the book is really focused on the
history of mifepristone.
And I really enjoyed thatbecause there was so much that
happened before I was involvedin this movement.
And so it was so great to hearthose stories.
And I know, again, it's like ahuge chunk of the book, so we're
(09:46):
obviously we're not gonna getinto all of that, but to me, we
want to talk a little bit aboutkind of this long and winding
path to get mifepristone onshelves or in the pharmacy.
Rebecca (09:55):
Yeah, it was definitely a long and winding path.
So, the story with mifepristoneis that there was this French
pharmaceutical company calledRoussel Uclaf, and they
discovered mifepristone prettymuch by accident in 1980.
They were not looking for anabortion pill at all.
(10:16):
And when they realized that itwas an abortion pill, certain
parts of the company liketotally freaked out.
But there were some otheradvocates within the company and
especially outside of thecompany who saw the huge
potential for this medicationand fought really hard for the
company to pursue tons ofresearch on the pill.
(10:37):
And basically, after many, manyyears of research and advocacy,
1988, France approvesmifepristone for medication
abortions.
And then there was huge dramabecause Roussel Uclaf— that
company that had the patent formifepristone— basically
withdrew mifepristone from theFrench market, even though
(10:57):
France had already approved it.
And that caused that led tofront-page mainstream press
coverage.
And there's this famous momentwhere the French Minister of
Health at the time comes forwardand says, no, no, no,
Roussel Uclaf, you can't dothis.
Mifepristone, it's not theproperty of a drug company.
It is, quote, "the moralproperty of women." I love that.
(11:19):
And so then they forced, yeah,they forced the company to put
mifepristone back on the market.
And mifepristone also, I thinkyou mentioned this earlier, it
was known at that time as RU486,which basically the RU stands
Roussel Uclaf, and 486 is justlike the 486th molecule that the
(11:42):
company discovered.
But that's what they meant.
And then after the Frenchapproval of mifepristone in
1988, there's this whole othersaga, which I can quickly go
into, which is okay, well, whatabout the US?
We know, right, that the FDAapproval for mifepristone here
didn't happen until 2000.
But people were working hard onthis medication going back to
(12:05):
the '80s.
And pretty much in a nutshell,the resistance to getting the
abortion pill or mifepristonehere in the US came down to the
potential that both thepro-choice movement at that time
saw and the anti-abortionmovement for this medication to
radically expand abortionaccess.
(12:26):
And at that time, there'srising anti-abortion extremist
violence in the US, targetingabortion clinics.
You have the firstassassination of an abortion
provider that happens in 1993,so just a few years after
mifepristone, you know, comesonto the French market.
(12:47):
So, all of that reallyheightens the tension for trying
to get this pill into the US.
And I can go into more detailabout that, but I think what's
really important is tounderstand the promise that this
pill held and the hopes that somany feminists had for it.
And then the reality once itdid actually get approved in
(13:09):
2000, but the FDA put a lot ofrestrictions on the medication
that really did limit access foryou know 20 years.
Jennie (13:17):
Yeah, I think I didn't have a great understanding of
all of the guidelines that werein place at the beginning
because of the way it was testedwith requiring three visits and
stuff.
Like I came into this worklater when um that had been
shortened.
So, it was shocking.
(13:38):
And it even started before,didn't you say, with four at one
point?
And that's crazy.
Rebecca (13:46):
Yeah.
When France rolled outmifepristone, you know, or as
part of medication abortion,they had four clinic visits
required for people, which isnuts when you think about it
today with telehealth abortion,and you don't have to have a
clinic visit at all.
So, it's definitely a lot ofanxiety that the government had,
(14:08):
that providers had at the time,around, oh my gosh, women
having abortions with thesepills by themselves, what does
that mean?
And in hindsight, it does seemridiculous.
But I think it's also importantto keep in mind that some of
the worries really were thatthey had to be so careful in the
(14:30):
very beginning because there'sso much fear that if one thing
went wrong or was perceived asgoing wrong, that would be it
for the medication.
So that's something that cameup as well as my reporting with
talking with some of the firstFrench doctors, for instance,
who did the very first trialswith mifepristone.
Jennie (14:47):
Yeah, I that makes total sense for like the logic behind
it.
I think the other story thatwas, I felt like was very much
in parallel to the story youwere telling was women not being
in these spaces as we weregoing through the approval
processes.
Or maybe there was one womanwho was on a research team or a
(15:10):
policy team.
And that really jumped out tome as we were following the
approval process along forthinking about how women would
use or how what guardrailsneeded to be around it.
Rebecca (15:24):
Yeah, that was something that also really stood
out to me in the reportingprocess.
And I write a lot about thisone researcher, Dr.
Beverly Winikoff, who is one ofthe only women who is
researching the medication herein the US.
And she testified during theFDA's advisory committee hearing
on Mifepristone, which was in1996.
(15:45):
And it was pretty much todecide just based on the
science, just based on the data,is this a safe medication?
And what was really fascinatingto me is what Dr. Winikoff's
research was really focusing onwell, what do women actually
think about these pills?
Like, who've actually takenthem?
What are how do they describethe experiences in their own
(16:08):
words?
And that was like not, that wassort of like an addendum almost
to the whole FDA considerationof the medication, which is sort
of fascinating, um, that thatwouldn't be considered more
central, but it kind of wasn't.
And it just so happened that alot of people who took the
medications preferred it to, orat least said that they
(16:29):
preferred it to having aprocedural abortion.
Jennie (16:31):
I think the other thing that really stood out because it
was like so early in theprocess were all of the hopes
advocates had at the time asthey were first talking about
it, and then to see like wherewe are now, it was just so
striking.
Rebecca (16:47):
Yeah, I write about there is this Time magazine
cover in 1993 that was aboutmifepristone and it said: "The
pill that changes everything."And the truth is it didn't, at
least not at that point.
And now we're seeing a reallydifferent story, but it took a
very long time to get here.
(17:08):
But I think that's somethingthat came up a lot with the
interviews I did with theseearly advocates and early
researchers of the medicationsis it's like it's gratifying to
see that finally, finally, thepotential we talked about is
being reached, where now morethan two-thirds of abortions in
the US are done with pills.
We know that one in fourabortions in the US are provided
(17:31):
via telehealth abortion.
But boy, that took a reallylong time.
It's, like, 25 years almost,you know?
Jennie (17:40):
Yeah.
And it just the world they werethinking of where women could
just very easily have access.
And reading that and hearingthose hopes and being seeing how
far away we were— and it's inmany ways still are— was really
striking.
Rebecca (17:56):
Yeah, something that was striking to me too was like
a big hope that those earlyadvocates had was that there
would be kind of once you hadthe FDA approval from
mifepristone, you could roll outmedication abortion, that
surely then any doctor couldprescribe these pills, right?
You did it wouldn't have to benecessarily the person at the
(18:18):
abortion clinic.
It could be the opium that youusually see, or it could be your
family medicine doctor, yourprimary care doctor.
There was just all of this hopethat that would happen.
And it just didn't, sadly.
And there are lots of reasonsthat came up in my reporting as
for why that could be, but oneof it did have to do with stigma
(18:41):
around abortion and beinglabeled as the abortion provider
in your community and what thatwould mean for you and your
family, which is really sad, butis part of the history.
Jennie (18:54):
Yeah.
Thinking of like being able tojust go to your family care
provider and get access, likethat's amazing.
One, if you want to go like themedical route, right?
Like, you talk aboutself-managed abortion and things
as well, but just thinking itcould be so easy, it's again
very different world than wherewe're at at the moment.
(19:16):
And you talked about like howimportant pills have become,
right?
They are the majority ofabortions right now, but we are
also seeing pills come underattack, particularly
mifepristone right now.
Do you want to talk a littlebit about what we're seeing with
that as well?
Rebecca (19:33):
Yes.
So because mifepristone, like Isaid before, that's the pill
that's registered for abortionsrather than misoprostol, it's
mifepristone that is moresubject to anti-abortion
attacks, at least right now,because there's a more
straightforward path tocontrolling them or attempting
to control them.
And so we're seeing differentprongs of attacks right now, one
(19:57):
of which is to pressure the FDAto basically get rid of
telehealth abortion nationwide.
The way how that would work, itwould basically require the
agency to ignore the data thatthey based that initial decision
on, which was first madetemporarily in 2021 because of
(20:19):
the COVID-19 pandemic, and thenwas made permanent in 2023.
And so we've seen the safety oftelehealth abortion in this
country since then, right?
So it would really be a huge,huge move if the agency uh
decided to go back on what ithad already decided.
But we also see that RFK Jr.,the current Secretary of Health
(20:42):
and Human Services, has beenpressuring the FDA to pretty
much do just that.
The other thing that I want tohighlight is there, and I know
that you've had people on thispodcast before talk at length
about this, but the attacks withlitigation to try to stop what
are called telehealth abortionshield laws in certain states.
And states that have those lawson the books, I believe there
(21:05):
are about eight states right nowthat have them, they lower the
legal risk for the providers inthose states to mail abortion
pills to people who are based instates with abortion bans or
severe abortion restrictions.
And we know that they'remailing thousands of pills a
month to people, and themajority of those pills are
(21:29):
going to people living in bannedstates.
But we are seeing lawsuitsagainst those laws, against
those telehealth abortion shieldlaws.
We don't know what will happennext, but those are two avenues
that the anti-abortion movementis trying to pursue.
In addition to just spreadingthe misinformation, or I should
(21:50):
say, disinformation, that thesepills are unsafe, which is not
true.
Jennie (21:55):
And I think one of the things your book really makes
clear is just how heavilystudied and how much research
there is around the safety ofthese pills.
Rebecca (22:05):
Yeah.
So, I think that's somethingthat maybe sometimes people
based here in the US kind offorget is it's not just the like
amount of research that we havehere in this country.
It's when you look at all ofthe research globally that we
(22:27):
also have about the safety ofthese medications and just how
ridiculous it actually is to saythat they cause harm.
Jennie (22:34):
Yeah.
And I think the other thing,like, yes, we're also seeing the
attacks on the shield laws, butthe case that went to the
Supreme Court last year is notdead, right?
Like it's being, it still couldcome back.
And again, would attack accessto the FDA approval of those
expanded um uh telehealthoptions.
(22:58):
And something abortionadvocates know and the anti's,
I'm sure, know, is that whatthat would mean for access to
abortion in this country is justhow absolutely devastating it
would be.
We do not have theinfrastructure if we have to go
back to all these in-personvisits to ensure that people who
need the abortion can get it.
Rebecca (23:21):
Absolutely.
And I'm glad you brought upthat case, the Alliance for
Hippocratic Medicine v.
FDA case, I believe that's whatit's called.
But what's important to note, Ithink, about that is the
Supreme Court, they dismissedthat case last year, but they
dismissed it on standing, not onthe merits of the case.
Jennie (23:41):
What the dentist didn't have standing.
Rebecca (23:46):
And so that's just so important to keep in mind
because it basically is kind oflike allowed for them to have a
bit of a loophole that theycould exploit if the right case
comes before the court.
And the same justices thatdecided Dobbs might then
basically, as you just said, tryto stop telehealth abortion
nationwide.
So yeah, I'm glad that you'rebringing attention to that.
Jennie (24:09):
I think the other thing that was really great about your
book is you you followed theprocess of mife, but you also
then went back to various, inparticular Latin American
countries, talking about whatwas happening there and how
access was expanding there.
Do we want to touch on that fora little bit?
Because I also think that is areally important story.
Rebecca (24:28):
Yeah, that's super important and also I think
pretty inspiring.
So kind of like what we weretalking about before with
misoprostol being generally moreavailable than mifepristone.
I write about a couple ofcountries in Latin America, but
mainly about Mexico andArgentina.
And I'll just highlightArgentina, I think.
(24:51):
So they people there had a neartotal abortion ban until pretty
recently, until 2020, where nowabortion is banned up until 14
weeks with some restrictions aswell for later abortion care.
But what I write about is howthere are these feminist
networks that grew in Argentinawhile under a near-total
(25:15):
abortion ban.
And they really flourished inthe 2010s using misoprostol—
and mifepristone if they couldget it— but misoprostol was, you
could still find that in somepharmacies.
And what's amazing to me isjust how organized they were,
and it started out more as aharm reduction strategy: like,
how do we get people safe careunder this ban with these pills
(25:40):
for now, while we want to alsochange the law and make this
legal?
And they still, theSocorristas en Red, that's the
name of this feminist activistnetwork, they still are
operating right now and theystill are supporting people
through their abortions withpills.
But something else that's likesuper amazing to me about this
(26:01):
network is they actuallycontributed to our understanding
of abortion pills.
And they were very deliberateabout partnering with
epidemiologists, withresearchers to try to document
their work and to expand ourknowledge of safe, self-managed
(26:23):
abortion care with misoprostolonly or misoprostol and
mifepristone.
And their research was soinfluential that it helped shape
the current World HealthOrganization guidelines for
abortion care with pills, whichbasically state that you
actually, if you are using thepills early in pregnancy and you
(26:46):
have the right protocols, theright information, which the
World Health Organization hasavailable, you don't need to
have the support of a licensedclinician with you.
It's different if you wantthat, but you can still have a
safe and effective abortionwithout that.
And we are a long, long wayhere in the US, I think, from
that potential ofover-the-counter abortion pills,
(27:09):
which is really what that wouldbe.
But the evidence that we have,you know, from the World Health
Organization, thanks in largepart to the brave work of these
activists in Argentina and inother parts of the world,
really, I think points to afuture where that could actually
be a possibility.
And in some ways, you know,that would bring us back to the
(27:30):
misoprostol origin story, wherewomen in Brazil had misoprostol
over the counter.
So yeah, things that we canwork towards.
Jennie (27:40):
I'm really glad you brought up the World Health
Organization guidelines becausethat was so important.
Not only did it outline the twodifferent protocols— so, the
mife and miso one and themisoprostol-only one— but it
also talked about that thereshouldn't be bans restricting,
gestational bans, there shouldnot be bans restricting
(28:01):
coverage.
It was really amazing to seethe World Health Organization
take such a strong stance whenthere had been reluctance
before.
Rebecca (28:10):
Yeah, and I think that also just highlights how the US
really is globally such anoutlier with having regressed on
abortion rights in thiscountry.
Jennie (28:23):
So, I think the other thing that would be nice to hear
about is what can the US learnfrom the Latin American
countries you talked about?
We've talked about on thepodcast before about what we can
learn from the green wavemovement, but this is a little
bit different.
Like, what can we learn abouthow they were able to ensure
(28:43):
people were getting pills whenthere were bans?
Rebecca (28:46):
I've thought about this a lot because it's I think
what's important is it's notlike a copy-paste kind of
situation.
And yeah, you were pretty clearabout that.
Like, the ban there was, like,a little bit different.
Basically, the criminalizationthreats that these networks were
(29:06):
facing are not like whatnetworks here in the US are
facing in states with abortionbans like Texas and Alabama.
But I think that the maintakeaway that I had from
networks like Socorristas inArgentina is they built strong
(29:27):
alliances with people in thehealthcare sector and the legal
sector to try to protectthemselves and the people that
they were helping.
And they were reallycontextually aware.
So, they just were verydeliberate about the security
concerns and trying to protectthe confidentiality of the
(29:47):
people that they helped.
And I think that is somethingthat I know from my reporting
that some of the on-the-groundcommunity networks here in the
US that face really highcriminalization risks have taken
a lot of lessons from in justbeing really careful and
deliberate with their alliances.
(30:08):
Yeah, and I think that there'salso something kind of beautiful
about all of these networksseeing themselves as part of
this larger global movement andthis sense of solidarity, which
especially now in this country,um, you know, with so much that
can feel overwhelming anddemoralizing, I think that alone
(30:30):
can be really powerful.
Jennie (30:32):
Yeah, it's so great to feel part of a bigger movement
and that we are all working tothese same ends.
I also really loved theimportance of sharing
information and making sure thatpeople have the information
they need.
And even if you can't supplythe pills, you're helping people
(30:52):
find where they can get them orknowing what the protocols are,
like everybody kind of hastheir role to play in this
moment.
And I mean, obviously I host apodcast, so I think information
is important in making sure thatpeople know these things.
So we'll definitely make sureto link um in our show notes the
WHO protocol so that everybodyhas it on hand.
(31:13):
But yeah, it's always justimportant to get the information
out there.
Rebecca (31:17):
Yeah, and I should have also mentioned something that
was really important to a lot ofthese networks that I write
about in the book was to try todestigmatize abortion with
one-on-one real conversationswith people who they themselves
are having an abortion orconsidering one, or somebody in
their life has, and just tryingto make it less scary.
(31:40):
And I think, you know, LasLibres in Mexico, which is one
accompaniment network, Iinterviewed them, and they some
of their members were talkingabout how they noticed that
sometimes the stigma aroundabortion from the people that
they were accompanying what wentback to a lack of information,
(32:00):
like went back to fears, like,oh my gosh, if I take these
medications, I'm gonna die orsomething.
And that it was all connected.
So I think that's alsosomething that we can all learn
from.
Jennie (32:12):
Yeah, I feel like I see this in a different way, like
earlier in the in this career,seeing all of the reasons why
people, particularly insub-Saharan Africa, were not
using like family planning, likeall of the fears and myths and
misinformation that werefloating around that were
(32:33):
keeping people from usingsomething that they maybe wanted
to use.
And that's powerful.
And again, you know, Imentioned I went to Catholic
school, so like you definitelyget steeped in that stigma.
One, everywhere, like abortabortion stigma is kind of
everywhere, but also growing upgoing to Catholic school from K
(32:54):
through eight, meant that therewas just like a bunch of it that
floated around.
So when you know, when thosearticles about mife were first
coming out, I was in Catholicschool.
And so were the articles reallysuper negative on that, or was
that like what I was hearingreflected being in Catholic
school at the time?
Rebecca (33:16):
Yeah, I went to Catholic school too, so I
understand.
Jennie (33:20):
Yeah.
I had sex ed from a nun.
"Sex ed"— heavily air quoted—from a nun.
Lots of stories there, I'msure.
Super helpful, super helpful.
Okay, so we always like to endthe podcast focusing on things
our audience can do.
So, how can the audience getinvolved in this moment?
Rebecca (33:42):
Well, I'm sure your audience is super well informed
already, but I will just say tryto get involved with your local
abortion fund in some way.
It doesn't have to meandonating, but that would be
great.
It could also meanvolunteering.
They're still around andthey're still supporting a lot
of people.
And we saw a big surge indonations to abortion funds
(34:05):
right after Dobbs, but there hasbeen really important reporting
on how we've seen a lot of thatdry up, basically, as like once
that rage giving, so to speak,has kind of slowed down.
So don't forget about them.
I think something else peoplecan do is talk about abortion
with the people in your life ifyou haven't already tried to do
(34:26):
that.
I found out there was this KFFsurvey that came out last year
that said that only one in fivewomen of reproductive age in the
US know that they can getabortion pills online.
So, that's pretty low.
So, I think that you might besurprised that people around you
don't actually have basicinformation about the different
(34:48):
avenues to get pills or justabortion care in general.
And then I'd also say if you'rein a position where you feel
comfortable doing so, safe doingso, look into advanced
provision of pills.
This is basically where you canget abortion pills prescribed
and mailed to you to have aroundjust in case.
(35:10):
Um, and you can get it fromtrusted sources like Aid Access.
If you're not sure about likethe legal risks of you doing so,
perhaps, depending on where youlive, I'd encourage you to call
If/When/How's Repro LegalHelpline.
They will give free andconfidential legal advice
depending on your situation.
(35:31):
And you can turn to Plan C orto I Need An A to just
understand all of your abortionaccess options.
Jennie (35:40):
I always like to talk about how important it is to
make yourself a resource foryour community and your network.
And that does not mean you needto know all the things.
But if you have a friend whocomes to you, you maybe know
where to point them, right?
You don't need to know wherepeople can go to this specific
(36:02):
place to buy abortion pills, butyou know about Plan C pills, or
you can point them to if whenhow if they have questions.
You don't need to be able toanswer them, but knowing these
resources is really important.
So when people ask questions,you can send them to the right
places to get the help theyneed.
I love that.
Rebecca, thank you so much forbeing here.
(36:22):
It was such a pleasure to talkto you and congratulations on
your book.
It was really great.
Rebecca (36:27):
Thank you so much.
It was such a pleasure to behere.
Jennie (36:30):
Okay, y'all.
I hope you enjoyed myconversation with Rebecca.
Like I said, we'll make sure tohave a link to her book on
Bookshop.
I do really recommend it.
I loved learning so much moreabout the history of abortion
pills.
It was just so fascinating anda great story.
We will also make sure to linkin the show notes some of the
(36:52):
places she mentioned, like AidAccess, Plan C Pills; we'll
include the WHO protocol aswell.
So we'll have a bunch ofinformation for you so that you
can find everything you need allin one place.
And with that, I will seeeverybody next week.
If you have any questions,comments, or topics you would
like us to cover, always feelfree to shoot me an email.
(37:14):
You can reach me at jennie@reprosfightback.com, or you can
find us on social media or atrePROs Fight Back on Facebook
and Twitter, or @reprosfb onInstagram.
If you love our podcast andwant to make sure more people
find it, take the time to rateand review us on your favorite
podcast platform.
(37:35):
Or if you want to make sure tosupport the podcast, you can
also donate on our website atreprosfightback.com.
Thanks all.
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