November 4, 2025 • 39 mins
The U.S. government used to be the largest donor in family planning assistance at $400 million a year. There has been an explicit loss of U.S. leadership and resources in contemporary global health and foreign aid, with significant, negative impacts on supply and health outcomes. Anu Kumar, President and CEO at Ipas, sits down to talk with us about the current status of U.S. foreign assistance and how we can reimagine it for the better.
The U.S. government has not been supporting abortion care for 50 years since the Helms Amendment was passed in 1973, and contraception has been facing increasing attacks. The campaign of incorrectly and harmfully equating contraceptives with abortifacients is coming to a head. In addition, there is $9.7 billion dollars’ worth of contraception impacted by Trump’s foreign aid freeze, which are now sitting in a Belgian warehouse. But we can imagine a more comprehensive, better performing foreign assistance: a reduced transactional quality and the ability for recipient countries to form their own assistance delivery.
For more information, check out Amicus with Dhalia Lithwick: https://slate.com/podcasts/amicus
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Episode Transcript
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(00:49):
Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, a podcast on all things related to sexual and reproductive health, rights, and justice. [music intro] Iam still dealing with this
stupid cough.
It is still working its wayout.
It is mostly gone, but it isstill around enough to really
annoy me.
So, sorry if you hear somewheezing.
I am very excited.
I am recording this the weekbefore y'all are hearing it.
Because I am at the annualAmerican Public Health
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(01:11):
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(01:32):
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(01:57):
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(02:41):
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(03:03):
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(03:27):
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Okay.
I'm so excited for that, y'all.
I'm so excited to see peoplewho are at APHA.
Like I said, I love meeting ouraudience.
It really does make my hearthappy.
I love when y'all email orreach out to us on social.
I just love hearing from y'all.
(03:48):
It really does make my day alittle brighter.
So, thank you.
With that, I think I don'treally feel like I have a ton of
other things to talk about.
I honestly feel like I justrecorded the intro for last
week's episode.
Almost kind of did, but that'sokay.
So let's just turn to thisweek.
This week, we haven't talkedabout global in a while and what
is happening around globalsexual and reproductive health
(04:10):
in a little while.
So I'm very excited to havejoin me today, Anu Kumar with
Ipas to talk about the state ofsexual and reproductive health
and the what this means with theloss of US leadership.
So, with that, let's go into myinterview with Anu.
Hi, Anu, thank you so much forbeing here.
Anu (04:28):
My pleasure.
Good to be with you.
Jennie (04:30):
Before we get started, would you like to take a second
and introduce yourself?
Anu (04:33):
I'd be happy to.
Anu Kumar.
I'm President and CEO of Ipas.
Ipas is a leading internationalorganization and working to
advance reproductive justice,and we focus on access to
abortion and contraception.
Jennie (04:46):
I'm so excited to have you here today to talk about.
I feel like it's been a littlewhile since I've had a global
conversation on the podcast, sohappy to like dig into that a
little bit.
But I think in the moment rightnow, I'm really feeling this
loss of US leadership with themcutting off foreign assistance,
particularly around the issueswe work on.
(05:07):
What are we seeing as kind ofsome of the impacts around that?
Anu (05:11):
Yeah, I mean, as you say, there's a significant amount of
resources that have been lost inthe family planning community
in particular.
You know, and I want to remindyou and your listeners that the
US government has not beensupporting abortion care for 50
years since the Helms Amendmentwas passed in 1973.
Abortion care has never been apart of U.S.
(05:33):
foreign assistance.
So that is a loss that we'vebeen living with for decades,
and indeed it's sort of theorigin story of Ipas and how we
came into being in 1973.
We are actually over 50 yearsold at this point.
So, you know, there's alwaysbeen this bifurcation in US
foreign assistance betweenfamily planning, maternal health
(05:54):
work, and then the rest ofabortion care and other work
that's that was handled by otherorganizations and other donors.
But in the contraception world,yeah, what we're seeing is a
really significant loss inresources.
You know, the US government wasthe largest donor in family
planning assistance at $400million a year, which is a lot,
(06:16):
but to be honest, it's not thatmuch considering that the
overall you know budget forforeign assistance was like $50
billion.
And so it's you know, theportion that was that was
dedicated towards contraceptionand family planning was was
really quite a small amountgiven the overall amount that
was being spent on foreignassistance.
(06:37):
Nonetheless, it has a reallysignificant impact.
I mean, what we're seeing nowis shortages of commodities,
particularly you know thingslike condoms and IUDs and
implants, and you know, that hasreal life implications.
And in addition to thecommodities, the US government
was also supporting healthsystems, health systems around
(07:00):
the world on how to providecare.
They were paying for thesalaries of many health workers
in many systems around theworld.
So, for example, maybe maybe itwould help to kind of go into a
little bit of a countryexample.
I'll talk about the DemocraticRepublic of Congo, which is a
very significant big country inAfrica, but already had very
(07:25):
weak health systems, and as youprobably know, significantly
impacted by humanitarian crises.
So, the departure of USgovernment funds has essentially
led to a collapse of its healthsystem.
And the Democratic Republic ofCongo, the government, is having
a hard time filling in the gapbecause it wasn't part of their
(07:47):
budget, right?
They were planning on havingUSAID support as part of their
annual budget, and so withoutit, they're really struggling as
to how to fill that gap.
So in that country, the supportwas focused on training
healthcare providers, oncommodities, on purchasing
healthcare equipment.
(08:07):
So without all of that, itmeans that there's really a
crisis in the country in termsof how they're able to deliver
care to their citizens.
So, yeah, that's one example ofwhat we're what we're seeing.
Jennie (08:19):
I think another thing that has been going on recently
that is really stuck in my mindis a little bit of a departure.
We're not gonna focus too muchon the $10 million worth of
contraception that the US wantsto destroy because we're
reporting this early, so by thetime y'all hear this, things
could have completely changed.
But as of the time we arerecording this, they have not
(08:42):
been destroyed.
And there was a New York Timesstory that came up that said
they were, and then a follow-upsaying that's not true.
But a USAID official statementmade it sound like there was
"abortifacient" birth control.
And maybe we should just liketake a moment and address that
bit, because that is a bit of adeparture, and it's really
(09:04):
troubling to see that comingfrom the US government.
Anu (09:07):
Yes, and I think that will be the lasting impact of this
episode, regardless of whathappens with these
contraceptives, whether they'reburned or not burned.
This creation of this termabortifacient birth control is
really dangerous.
So, let's be clear, there is nosuch thing as abortofacient
birth control.
And they it should raise a redflag for us all.
(09:29):
It's a clear signal that theadministration fully intends to
roll back the right and accessto contraception in general.
And we're also seeing it herein the US in terms of the bill
that's being proposed uh rightnow in South Carolina, which is
essentially using that same kindof language to call into
question what they call birthcontrol, that is, that can
(09:53):
interrupt ovulation.
I think that's how theydescribe it in that particular.
Jennie (09:57):
I mean, it kind of goes back to, like, Hobby Lobby,
right?
Anu (09:59):
In a sense.
Jennie (10:00):
Because wasn't that part of their argument, right?
Like, that they didn't want tocover birth control because it
caused abortions?
Anu (10:06):
Yes.
Yes, in a sense, they wanted tocarve out for contraception
because they objected to theforms of contraception that were
included.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's exactly right.
So in this bill, you know, itbasically changes the definition
of what is considered acontraceptive, and and and and
they want to exclude anythingthat prevents ovulation or
implantation of a fertilizedovum.
(10:29):
So, that rules out a number ofcontraceptives that we use quite
frequently in the United Statesand and around the world.
But I think this is what'sreally dangerous about what's
happening with this stash ofcontraception that may or may
not be destroyed in thiswarehouse, is that they are
actually equating thecontraception with abortive
(10:51):
patients.
And this is not true.
Now, those of us who've beenworking on this issue for a long
time have been saying fordecades that there it's this is
not just about abortion, thatthey are actually coming for our
contraception, and they'recoming for our contraception and
our abortion care because theyare terrified and worried about
this demographic decline.
(11:13):
But that too is kind of a coverargument for essentially making
sure that the United Statesbecomes a country where only
certain people are allowed toreproduce and others are not.
And I don't mean just Blackpeople and white people, but I
also mean LGBTQI individuals,people even who seek IVF, which
(11:38):
is something that is also underattack in the South Carolina
bill.
So, you know, they began withabortion, but it's really the
slippery uh road to all forms ofreproductive health care or to
multiple forms.
Jennie (11:52):
And just to be like a little bit explicit, so that you
understand it's the birthcontrol you probably could be
using, right?
Like it's talking about IUDs,it's talking about emergency
contraception in some cases, notnecessarily what's in the
warehouse, but like it in otherinstances what's talked about.
So, this could be birth controlthat you are actually using
(12:14):
that is what they are targeting.
Anu (12:16):
Exactly.
Millions and millions ofAmerican women use or have used
IUDs, emergency contraception.
Yeah.
And I don't really know, andI'm curious to know how far
they're going to take thisargument because theoretically,
implants and oral contraceptivescould also qualify because oral
contraceptives do stopovulation.
Jennie (12:40):
Okay.
Before we started talking, wesaid we didn't want to focus on
the terrible.
So, let's not do that.
And if there's one, I mean, itdoesn't feel right to say silver
lining because things arereally bad right now without the
loss of US funding.
But something that good couldthat could come out of it is
(13:02):
reimagining what this, whatglobal assistance or what this
looks like, and building it in abetter way, to dream a better
system that is more inclusiveand is meeting the needs of
people on the ground with theirinput.
So, what are what could be whatcould we build back better?
Anu (13:21):
So, I definitely want to talk about that, but before we
get there, Jennie, if I couldjust make one other comment
about the role of the US in thein the world today.
I mean, we definitely are andremain obviously an economic
superpower uh in and uh an exand also a cultural superpower
(13:43):
in many ways.
You know, our music, our art,our films are extremely popular
around the world.
And yet I do feel that the USis slipping from its role as a
global influencer because it'slost a lot of credibility in the
past, not just the past year,but but you know, in in many
(14:03):
ways recently.
So I was quite surprised uhafter the Dobbs decision that
you know everyone we were allreally worried that this was
going to result in morerestrictions around the world on
abortion care.
And we've seen some attemptsfor that, but we haven't seen
much that's been successful.
In fact, what's beeninteresting to observe is that
(14:25):
many countries were so alarmedby what happened with Dobbs,
particularly European countries,that they took a look at their
laws and said, oh wow, we have abarrier here, we have, we
didn't realize we put thisbarrier there.
And they began to remove thesebarriers, and as you know,
France actually enshrined theright to abortion in their
(14:47):
constitution.
So it had an interesting impactand it wasn't all negative.
I think the alarm and shockthat it caused actually made
some activists in some countriessay, yeah, we we can do better,
and indeed we should do better,because we never thought the
United States would go this far.
And similarly, I think withwhat we're seeing with
(15:08):
mifopristone and the attacks onmifepristone in the US, you
know, this is extremelyworrisome, and you know, over
60% of abortions in the UnitedStates are done using
mifepristone.
They're very safe, it's a veryeffective method, it's a method
that's approved by the WorldHealth Organization, and yet our
FDA could be poised to removemifepristone from the US market,
(15:33):
and that would send shock wavesin the rest of the world, but
it remains to be seen whetherthose shock waves would all be
negative.
I just feel like the US hasreally lost a lot of its
leadership role on certainly onreproductive health and rights,
but in foreign assistance moregenerally.
So getting back to youroriginal question of how could
(15:55):
we reimagine foreign assistance,I think the way that the US
government conducted itself inthis, in the cutting of foreign
aid in such a precipitous mannerreally jolted people and
countries and governments andmade them realize that what had
(16:15):
been a reliable partner was nolonger a reliable partner.
And so when you, you know, it'sjust like any relationship,
when you realize that the personyou're negotiating with, the
person that you're working withis actually not reliable, you
make contingency plans, right?
You start figuring out, okay,well, I need to figure out how
(16:35):
to do this on my own, I need toshare up other partnerships, I
need to figure out plan, youknow, B, C, D, and E, because
this is not a reliable partner.
So I do think it offers us anopportunity.
I mean, just recently I sawthat the government of Nigeria
has actually stepped up itscontribution, its domestic
(16:58):
financing for contraception.
I think it went from 4 millionto 13 million.
So, you know, it's asignificant increase.
It's not enough, but it's asignificant increase and it's
definitely a step in the rightdirection.
And so, I think additional pushtowards domestic financing of
really what are essential healthservices is going to be what
(17:19):
we're what we're going to see.
One thing that gets lost in theconversation about US foreign
assistance, because it's soimportant and significant, and I
don't want to downplay itssignificance because, you know,
the people that are reliant onmalaria pills and HIV medication
and tuberculosis, you know,these are people's, these are
people's lives that we'retalking about.
(17:39):
And yet I do want to point outthat US, the way that US foreign
assistance was delivered wasfar from ideal.
There was always atransactional quality to it.
And frankly, just as there isfor any governmental assistance.
It's not where the UnitedStates is not alone in this.
There's, you know, so but butthe fact that the US is not
(18:03):
present or is is less of aplayer now allows donor, you
know, recipient countries toimagine and think about how they
should be providing care fortheir citizens.
And it also allows citizens andactive advocacy organizations
to push their governments toactually make good on their
(18:25):
obligations.
You know, is it right thatgovernments in poor in African
countries are dependent on anoutside donor to provide
essential health services?
This is a question that thecitizens of those countries need
to pose and need to debate andneed to discuss.
Is this how we want to conductour country, how we want to
(18:47):
govern our country?
So, I think it's provoking someof those conversations, and
that could be good.
That could actually be a stepin the right direction.
You know, a lot of the way USgovernment assistance was was
conducted was through contracts,and there it was very
project-based.
It was like, you know, we wantto provide X number of services
(19:10):
in this location for a Y numberof people.
It was a very project-basedapproach.
And those of us who have notbeen part of that ecosystem, the
US government ecosystem, whichIpas has not been because we do
not receive US governmentfunds, we have been part of an
ecosystem that is reallybuilding a movement to change, a
(19:32):
movement for social justice, amovement for reproductive
justice, in the case of Ipas, amovement for gender justice.
And that is a very rich anddiverse ecosystem.
And movement building is notproject-based.
And I think that could beanother positive outcome of this
(19:55):
reduction in U.S.
foreign assistance.
Jennie (19:57):
I was thinking kind of along similar lines of there had
been a big push around likeintegration of services, but
there were funding streams,right?
It was like here is your HIVassistance, here is your family
planning assistance.
And with things like the GlobalGag Rule that reinforced
keeping sexual and reproductivehealth separate from other forms
(20:19):
of health care, but that's nothow people live their lives,
right?
That's not how you want toaccess services.
You want to be able to go to aclinic and have all of your
needs met and not try and find aclinic where you can get this
or a clinic where you could getthat.
So, this could offer a greatopportunity without having those
restrictions that the USgovernment had with global gag
(20:42):
rule, Helms, right?
You can bring abortion servicesin from being separate.
You can have a clinic where youcan go to get health care
instead of having to go tomultiple places.
Anu (20:54):
Exactly.
Exactly, right.
And so, without the US foreignassistance or a significant
reduction in it, we have areduction in the impact of the
gag rule and the HelmsAmendment.
So that's right.
The thing that's worrisomethough is that most of the
countries that we're talkingabout are so poor and are so
much in debt that it's going tobe very difficult for them to
(21:17):
resist American money.
They need it.
They need it.
And it's very likely thatfuture American money is going
to be even more heavilyconditioned.
And I mean it remains to beseen, but you know, very likely
that that the gag rule willhave, will apply to all foreign
assistants.
It could be, it could apply tomore than just foreign NGOs, it
(21:40):
could apply to US NGOs, it couldapply to multilateral
organizations, and they mightinclude more kinds of services
and care like gender-affirmingcare or you know, who knows
about DEI.
You know, there's there's a lotthat we don't we don't know
what's what's going to happen,but it's very likely that it's
going to be even more, I wouldsay, um transactional and uh
(22:03):
ideologically restricted.
Jennie (22:06):
And you all may already know this because it may have
happened between the time werecorded and it came out, but we
will have a much deeper dive onwhat happens with the global
gag roll when it actuallyhappens.
But yeah, no, uh it it couldhave a much broader impact.
But again, thinking of thepossibilities of you know, not
(22:28):
aid coming from a top-down, thisis what we're doing, but having
communities more involved andwhat they need is like a great
vision for the future to likethink of building it to meet, be
more justice focused than justtop-down outsiders saying this
is what we're giving you.
Anu (22:49):
Yeah, and I think those conversations are happening.
You know, there's there arediscussions and conversations
that are happening both uh atthe country level, and I know
that IPAS staff and colleaguesare involved in some of those
discussions about you knowhealth financing, but there are
also conversations that aretaking place at the global level
about you know what do we do.
I think the most difficultthing has been the speed at
(23:11):
which USAID was dismantled.
Jennie (23:14):
There was no preparation for anybody.
And how do you fill that gapwhen your budget's already
committed and you weren'texpecting to all of a sudden
lose all of these services orsupplies that were provided?
Anu (23:28):
Exactly.
And you know, in addition toUSAID, you know, UNFPA has also
been impacted, and so this isalso an issue because so many of
the reproductive healthsupplies and commodities are
purchased by and through UNFPA.
So, you know, we're looking ata situation where uh some of the
leading organizations areactually really hard hit.
(23:48):
And then, of course, the NGOsector is it, you know,
particularly those organizationsthat were dependent on US
government funds, have just beenreally decimated.
And so many staff andindividuals have lost their
jobs, and then you know theimpact on real people's lives in
country, the beneficiaries ofUS government assistance is also
significant.
(24:08):
So it the ripple effect is justreally profound, and I think
everyone is trying to adjust tothis new reality.
You know, it reminds me of theway that I've been reading about
how the economic world order isalso being re-imagined and and
kind of reshuffled because theUS is is not because of the
(24:31):
tariffs.
So, you know, China actuallyhas it it's doing it's doing
well in terms of exports becauseit's found additional markets.
Brazil is exporting more toChina and other places than the
US because the US has imposedthese tariffs.
So the world is kind ofadapting and realigning in real
(24:53):
time.
I mean, like we're seeing thishappen.
You know, there was that uh themeeting that or that the summit
that took place in China, whichincluded Russia and North
Korea, and you know, those thatthose leaders.
People are are looking andsaying, all right, well, maybe
this country, maybe the UnitedStates isn't this where we
(25:14):
should center our world.
Jennie (25:16):
Yeah, and and and you were talking about like the
ripple effects, and I'm sure youexperience the same thing that
I do as you go into the nextmeeting, and all of a sudden
some you someone else sayssomething, and you're like, oh
my god, that's like anotherthing I hadn't thought about
yet.
And so it just it always feelslike there's some new nugget of
(25:36):
information or area impactedthat it it can be so
overwhelming to just think ofall of the places that need our
attention and focus.
And yeah, I just feel like inevery meeting or conversations I
have, all of a sudden it'slike, oh, yeah, nope, haven't
thought about that yet.
Okay.
Anu (25:54):
Yes, I do feel that.
And I know that my colleaguesdo as well.
And one of the hardest thingsin times like this, I think, is
to kind of stay steady and staythe course.
And I have the great advantageand benefit of working in an
organization that's reallyfocused.
You know, Ipas is focused onaccess to abortion, access to
(26:17):
contraception, this is what wedo.
We don't do a hundred things,we do this thing.
And so, you know, part of thebenefit of that is that I can
kind of keep doing my job andyou know, keep at it and try not
to filter out some of the stuffthat's that's happening on the
outside.
Though obviously it's it'schallenging because it all
(26:38):
impacts, you know, our our work.
But I think that to me that'slike the thing that we all need
to kind of embrace is almost asingle-minded focus in terms of
you know, what are you good at?
What can you do?
And do it, you know, like do itthe best you can right now.
And that is actually the onlything that we have control over.
(27:01):
I think the other feeling thatmost that a lot of people have
is just the sense of chaos anddisassembling, uh, and kind of
you know uh keeping track ofeverything, which is impossible.
Yeah, it's impossible to keeptrack of everything.
Jennie (27:20):
So and like forgiving yourself for not doing it all,
right?
Well, there's no way, right?
So, I'm one of those people whofeels like, oh god, I need to
do more, like I'm not doingenough, and like giving yourself
the grace to know like you hereare the couple things that you
are going to focus on, andtrusting others have the other
(27:42):
areas, and you can't do it all.
Anu (27:45):
Exactly.
Yeah, exactly.
And you know, I firmly believethat we that the the that
reproductive justice and genderjustice, I firmly believe that
we will actually prevail.
I think it will be longer andin the United States, but you
know, I just want to rem remindyour listeners that in the last
(28:05):
30 years, 60 countries haveliberalized their abortion laws.
You know, only a handful ofcountries have gone backwards.
Yes, one of them is the UnitedStates, but the progress is
unmistakable.
We are moving towards a worldin which this issue, the the
issue of access to abortion, isless and less a politically
(28:28):
divisive issue.
You know, obviously we're notnowhere near that in the US, but
I do think we can get there andwe just have to kind of
continue down this path andcontinue down this road.
And one of the things thatwe're doing at IPAS is to kind
of keep that focus and bring thelessons from outside of the US
to the US.
(28:49):
You know, American activists, Ithink, have a we have a lot to
learn from the rest of theworld.
Not only can we learn, but wecan also gain inspiration and
hope for what is possible.
Like I'm thinking about theGreen Wave movement, you know,
in Latin America.
And what was so powerful aboutthat movement is that it was a
movement that brought in so manyother movements.
(29:11):
So, you know, there was it wasit was a it was like a collation
of multiple movements, youknow.
And so it was the feministmovement, it was the labor
movement, it was the LGBTQImovement, it was just many
groups that get got together,and and that's why I think it
was so powerful.
And that I think is somethingto really learn from and and
draw strength from.
(29:33):
And and another feature of thatmovement that was also really
interesting to me is that overmany, many years, and and
remember Latin America, many ofthe countries in Latin America
emerged from dictatorships, youknow, and so they are very
nascent democracies in in manyways.
And so they, you know, the thefact that they were able to
(29:54):
actually bring, you know, tohave people who were both in
power, who were on their on theside of you know, changing the
gay marriage laws, changing theabortion laws, and as well as
sort of activists on the street,it's like those two groups
working together, I feel likereally led to significant
(30:15):
change, you know, in thecorridors of power and in the
streets meant that change wasreally possible.
And and that's something toaspire to.
Jennie (30:23):
Yeah, I feel that so strongly.
I've done other interviewswhere people ask, like, how like
do how do you keep doing Like,do you honestly believe we're
going to win?
And if I did not believe that,I could not do this work because
there is so much where youcould just see the the ways we
have lost and things that aren'tgoing well.
(30:45):
That if you didn't think thatwe would achieve that better
world, you couldn't do thiswork.
And so yeah, I come into itwith hope.
And, you know, it may nothappen as fast as I would like,
but I absolutely believe we willget to that better place where
people have access to the carethey need and in in all the
(31:07):
ways, right?
That's affordable, it's local,it's easy to access.
Like I fully believe in thatvision.
And if I didn't, I would giveup.
Anu (31:18):
Yeah, exactly.
Jennie (31:19):
Okay.
So I always like to end thepodcast not talking about what's
bad, but talking about whatpeople can do.
So, how can the audience getinvolved in these fights right
now?
Anu (31:33):
So, I mean, I think the the best thing we can do is to
really be as informed aspossible.
So there's great informationout there on what's happening on
abortion rights.
Of course, Ipas' website,www.ipas.org, is a font of
information about what'shappening around the world and
(31:53):
and what we can do to improvethe situation.
I do think that there areorganizations that so NGOs are
still active in this sector, andso non-profit organizations are
still really moving and stillact you know acting despite
what's happening at thegovernmental level.
And there are many partnerorganizations.
So, Ipas obviously is anorganization that you know one
(32:14):
can support, but then thenthere's IPPF, there's Marie
Stopes [International], there's,you know, there are many, and
then of course there'sPlanned Parenthood locally, and
then the Reproductive Justiceorganizations, the abortion
funds.
The abortion funds are really,really critical.
I personally I feel like theyare providing much-needed help
to individuals in our country,and they have really, they had
(32:37):
an initial surge of fundingpost-jobs, and that's really
weighed.
And so, I feel like additionalsupport to the abortion funds is
really necessary, you know, andmany of them are working in
places that are restricted,highly legally restricted.
So, you know, I think there's alot of opportunity there as
well.
There is no shortage of ways ofgetting involved right now.
(32:59):
Just need to kind of thinkabout it for a second, you know,
for a minute, and maybe do alittle light googling, and you
will find you will find ways ofgetting involved.
Jennie (33:09):
Yeah, you talked about the green wave being something
that inspires you.
And yeah, the work thatabortion funds are doing on the
ground, I find so inspirationaland always a big fan of
supporting them.
And I mean, all the places youmentioned.
And my always my note I like togive when people talk about
donating, particularly toabortion funds, but to anybody,
(33:33):
is it's great if you can giveonce, but if you can break that
up and be a monthly donor, andeven if it's small amounts, they
know they are getting thatamount every month, and that
helps them plan.
So, I'm a big proponent ofbeing a monthly supporter, and I
am a monthly supporter ofmultiple abortion funds.
Anu (33:54):
Yeah, the recurring gifts are really important.
Yeah.
It also sends a signal ofsolidarity, you know, that
you're in there for the longerterm.
It's a sense of and a feelingof like community.
One of the things that we'vebeen doing at Ipas in many
different locations is we'vebeen leading a book club called
(34:15):
Read to Resist.
Because one of the thingsthat's that has it might be
cheesy, but I really do feellike your mind is your own.
What you think and what youlearn and what you put in it is
under your control.
And so I have always drawn alot of inspiration and uh not to
(34:37):
mention learning from readingand pleasure, just enjoyment.
I read all the time.
I read fiction, I readnon-fiction.
Yeah.
So we began this book club, andit right now we meet at a local
bookstore here in NorthCarolina, but we also but it's a
you know, the the informationabout the book club is on our
website.
(34:57):
And there are books, there arebook recommendations as well on
our website, you know, and Ifind that reading about how
other movements have handledtimes of oppression is
instructive.
And I also find, like, forexample, we read Seven Necessary
Sins for Women and Girls,Mona Eltahawy, who is an
(35:18):
Egyptian feminist, you know,getting her take on as an Arab
Muslim woman, what does shethink of what she's experiencing
and feminism and women's rightsright now?
It's just a differentperspective, a different take on
the same issues that we'vespent a lot of time thinking
about, and bringing together abook club to talk about it is
(35:41):
also really helpful because youhave this sense of community and
discussion, and you know whatwhat did you get out of it?
So anyway, I encourage peopleto kind of create their own
communities and figure out waysthat they can maintain their
level of hopefulness andinspiration.
And you know, we're not theonly people to have experienced
(36:02):
this.
Other people have experiencedthis kind of political climate,
and we can learn.
We can learn from that and wecan grow.
Jennie (36:10):
I love that, and I will be going immediately to go and
see what is on the list, to seewhat I need to be reading.
I always love getting new bookrecommendations to add to my to
read list, which is endless, butstill love to add more.
Anu, thank you so much forbeing here.
It was a pleasure to talk toyou.
My pleasure.
Okay, y'all.
(36:31):
I hope you enjoyed myconversation with Anu.
Don't forget, win free merch,tag us on social media in
whatever format you would like,whatever platform you are on.
Tell us why you love thepodcast, or tell us why you
fight for sexual reproductivehealth and rights.
And each time you post and tagus, you get put once in the
(36:53):
pot to win a bunch of rePROsmerch.
So, can't wait to see who wins.
Can't wait to see y'all'sposts.
Like I said, I really lovehearing from y'all.
I really am excited to hearwhat you love about the podcast
and what makes it special.
So thank you so much foreverybody who is gonna send in
their stuff.
I can't wait to see everybodyat APHA, and I will see
(37:14):
everybody else next week.
If you have any questions,comments, or topics you would
like us to cover, always feelfree to shoot me an email.
You can reach me atjennie@reprosfightback.com, or
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We're at rePROs Fight Back onFacebook and Twitter, or
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(37:35):
If you love our podcast andwant to make sure more people
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Thanks all!
Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, a podcast on all things related to sexual and reproductive health, rights, and justice. [music intro] Iam still dealing with this
stupid cough.
It is still working its wayout.
It is mostly gone, but it isstill around enough to really
annoy me.
So, sorry if you hear somewheezing.
I am very excited.
I am recording this the weekbefore y'all are hearing it.
Because I am at the annualAmerican Public Health
Association conference thisweek.
(01:11):
So if you're at APHA and youhear this when it comes out,
swing by our booth, make sure tocome say hi.
I always love getting to talkto people who listen to the
podcast.
It is honestly one of myfavorite parts of going to APHA
is getting to meet a bunch ofpeople who love the podcast.
It just makes my heart sohappy.
And I really, I just it I lovemeeting y'all.
(01:32):
It makes me just, it brings meso much joy.
I don't know what to say.
It just is wonderful.
So, we are doing somethingspecial for y'all now.
So we're doing this at APHA,but I wanted to make sure that
we are also doing it foreverybody who is part of our
audience.
So, we are doing a merchgiveaway.
What?! So, if you love ourmerch, well, first you can go
(01:57):
ahead and buy some.
But also, we are doing a fungiveaway.
So if you would send us a tweetor Blue sky or whatever,
whatever your favorite socialmedia platform is, tag us and
tell us either why you love thepodcast, because I always want
to know.
I always want to know whatabout it makes you happy.
(02:19):
Or you can tell us why youfight for sexual and
reproductive health and rights.
And each time, each time youpost equals one entry.
So if you post four times, youget four entries into the
giveaway.
So just make sure to tag rePROson whatever social media
platform you share.
You can do a video.
I would love to see a video.
You can just write a post, youcan make a graphic, whatever
(02:41):
makes you happy.
Send it to us in the next twoweeks, let's say.
And we will enter all of yourentries into a giveaway and we
will reach out to you and makesure you get a bunch of fun
repros merge.
How fun is that?
I am so excited.
I can't wait to get merch intoall of y'all's hands.
But also, merch makes greatgifts.
(03:03):
So if you want to go and buysome from our Bonfire store,
please feel free to do that aswell.
I'm sure we will be postingabout it on social media, so
just keep an eye out for thatand you can learn more details.
But really, just tag us onsocial, tell us why you love the
podcast, or tell us why youfight for sexual and
reproductive health and rights.
And each time you post, you getone entry into the giveaway.
(03:27):
Make sure to tag us so that wecan see it so we know what
happened, and then we'll putyour entry in the pot.
Okay.
I'm so excited for that, y'all.
I'm so excited to see peoplewho are at APHA.
Like I said, I love meeting ouraudience.
It really does make my hearthappy.
I love when y'all email orreach out to us on social.
I just love hearing from y'all.
(03:48):
It really does make my day alittle brighter.
So, thank you.
With that, I think I don'treally feel like I have a ton of
other things to talk about.
I honestly feel like I justrecorded the intro for last
week's episode.
Almost kind of did, but that'sokay.
So let's just turn to thisweek.
This week, we haven't talkedabout global in a while and what
is happening around globalsexual and reproductive health
(04:10):
in a little while.
So I'm very excited to havejoin me today, Anu Kumar with
Ipas to talk about the state ofsexual and reproductive health
and the what this means with theloss of US leadership.
So, with that, let's go into myinterview with Anu.
Hi, Anu, thank you so much forbeing here.
Anu (04:28):
My pleasure.
Good to be with you.
Jennie (04:30):
Before we get started, would you like to take a second
and introduce yourself?
Anu (04:33):
I'd be happy to.
Anu Kumar.
I'm President and CEO of Ipas.
Ipas is a leading internationalorganization and working to
advance reproductive justice,and we focus on access to
abortion and contraception.
Jennie (04:46):
I'm so excited to have you here today to talk about.
I feel like it's been a littlewhile since I've had a global
conversation on the podcast, sohappy to like dig into that a
little bit.
But I think in the moment rightnow, I'm really feeling this
loss of US leadership with themcutting off foreign assistance,
particularly around the issueswe work on.
(05:07):
What are we seeing as kind ofsome of the impacts around that?
Anu (05:11):
Yeah, I mean, as you say, there's a significant amount of
resources that have been lost inthe family planning community
in particular.
You know, and I want to remindyou and your listeners that the
US government has not beensupporting abortion care for 50
years since the Helms Amendmentwas passed in 1973.
Abortion care has never been apart of U.S.
(05:33):
foreign assistance.
So that is a loss that we'vebeen living with for decades,
and indeed it's sort of theorigin story of Ipas and how we
came into being in 1973.
We are actually over 50 yearsold at this point.
So, you know, there's alwaysbeen this bifurcation in US
foreign assistance betweenfamily planning, maternal health
(05:54):
work, and then the rest ofabortion care and other work
that's that was handled by otherorganizations and other donors.
But in the contraception world,yeah, what we're seeing is a
really significant loss inresources.
You know, the US government wasthe largest donor in family
planning assistance at $400million a year, which is a lot,
(06:16):
but to be honest, it's not thatmuch considering that the
overall you know budget forforeign assistance was like $50
billion.
And so it's you know, theportion that was that was
dedicated towards contraceptionand family planning was was
really quite a small amountgiven the overall amount that
was being spent on foreignassistance.
(06:37):
Nonetheless, it has a reallysignificant impact.
I mean, what we're seeing nowis shortages of commodities,
particularly you know thingslike condoms and IUDs and
implants, and you know, that hasreal life implications.
And in addition to thecommodities, the US government
was also supporting healthsystems, health systems around
(07:00):
the world on how to providecare.
They were paying for thesalaries of many health workers
in many systems around theworld.
So, for example, maybe maybe itwould help to kind of go into a
little bit of a countryexample.
I'll talk about the DemocraticRepublic of Congo, which is a
very significant big country inAfrica, but already had very
(07:25):
weak health systems, and as youprobably know, significantly
impacted by humanitarian crises.
So, the departure of USgovernment funds has essentially
led to a collapse of its healthsystem.
And the Democratic Republic ofCongo, the government, is having
a hard time filling in the gapbecause it wasn't part of their
(07:47):
budget, right?
They were planning on havingUSAID support as part of their
annual budget, and so withoutit, they're really struggling as
to how to fill that gap.
So in that country, the supportwas focused on training
healthcare providers, oncommodities, on purchasing
healthcare equipment.
(08:07):
So without all of that, itmeans that there's really a
crisis in the country in termsof how they're able to deliver
care to their citizens.
So, yeah, that's one example ofwhat we're what we're seeing.
Jennie (08:19):
I think another thing that has been going on recently
that is really stuck in my mindis a little bit of a departure.
We're not gonna focus too muchon the $10 million worth of
contraception that the US wantsto destroy because we're
reporting this early, so by thetime y'all hear this, things
could have completely changed.
But as of the time we arerecording this, they have not
(08:42):
been destroyed.
And there was a New York Timesstory that came up that said
they were, and then a follow-upsaying that's not true.
But a USAID official statementmade it sound like there was
"abortifacient" birth control.
And maybe we should just liketake a moment and address that
bit, because that is a bit of adeparture, and it's really
(09:04):
troubling to see that comingfrom the US government.
Anu (09:07):
Yes, and I think that will be the lasting impact of this
episode, regardless of whathappens with these
contraceptives, whether they'reburned or not burned.
This creation of this termabortifacient birth control is
really dangerous.
So, let's be clear, there is nosuch thing as abortofacient
birth control.
And they it should raise a redflag for us all.
(09:29):
It's a clear signal that theadministration fully intends to
roll back the right and accessto contraception in general.
And we're also seeing it herein the US in terms of the bill
that's being proposed uh rightnow in South Carolina, which is
essentially using that same kindof language to call into
question what they call birthcontrol, that is, that can
(09:53):
interrupt ovulation.
I think that's how theydescribe it in that particular.
Jennie (09:57):
I mean, it kind of goes back to, like, Hobby Lobby,
right?
Anu (09:59):
In a sense.
Jennie (10:00):
Because wasn't that part of their argument, right?
Like, that they didn't want tocover birth control because it
caused abortions?
Anu (10:06):
Yes.
Yes, in a sense, they wanted tocarve out for contraception
because they objected to theforms of contraception that were
included.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's exactly right.
So in this bill, you know, itbasically changes the definition
of what is considered acontraceptive, and and and and
they want to exclude anythingthat prevents ovulation or
implantation of a fertilizedovum.
(10:29):
So, that rules out a number ofcontraceptives that we use quite
frequently in the United Statesand and around the world.
But I think this is what'sreally dangerous about what's
happening with this stash ofcontraception that may or may
not be destroyed in thiswarehouse, is that they are
actually equating thecontraception with abortive
(10:51):
patients.
And this is not true.
Now, those of us who've beenworking on this issue for a long
time have been saying fordecades that there it's this is
not just about abortion, thatthey are actually coming for our
contraception, and they'recoming for our contraception and
our abortion care because theyare terrified and worried about
this demographic decline.
(11:13):
But that too is kind of a coverargument for essentially making
sure that the United Statesbecomes a country where only
certain people are allowed toreproduce and others are not.
And I don't mean just Blackpeople and white people, but I
also mean LGBTQI individuals,people even who seek IVF, which
(11:38):
is something that is also underattack in the South Carolina
bill.
So, you know, they began withabortion, but it's really the
slippery uh road to all forms ofreproductive health care or to
multiple forms.
Jennie (11:52):
And just to be like a little bit explicit, so that you
understand it's the birthcontrol you probably could be
using, right?
Like it's talking about IUDs,it's talking about emergency
contraception in some cases, notnecessarily what's in the
warehouse, but like it in otherinstances what's talked about.
So, this could be birth controlthat you are actually using
(12:14):
that is what they are targeting.
Anu (12:16):
Exactly.
Millions and millions ofAmerican women use or have used
IUDs, emergency contraception.
Yeah.
And I don't really know, andI'm curious to know how far
they're going to take thisargument because theoretically,
implants and oral contraceptivescould also qualify because oral
contraceptives do stopovulation.
Jennie (12:40):
Okay.
Before we started talking, wesaid we didn't want to focus on
the terrible.
So, let's not do that.
And if there's one, I mean, itdoesn't feel right to say silver
lining because things arereally bad right now without the
loss of US funding.
But something that good couldthat could come out of it is
(13:02):
reimagining what this, whatglobal assistance or what this
looks like, and building it in abetter way, to dream a better
system that is more inclusiveand is meeting the needs of
people on the ground with theirinput.
So, what are what could be whatcould we build back better?
Anu (13:21):
So, I definitely want to talk about that, but before we
get there, Jennie, if I couldjust make one other comment
about the role of the US in thein the world today.
I mean, we definitely are andremain obviously an economic
superpower uh in and uh an exand also a cultural superpower
(13:43):
in many ways.
You know, our music, our art,our films are extremely popular
around the world.
And yet I do feel that the USis slipping from its role as a
global influencer because it'slost a lot of credibility in the
past, not just the past year,but but you know, in in many
(14:03):
ways recently.
So I was quite surprised uhafter the Dobbs decision that
you know everyone we were allreally worried that this was
going to result in morerestrictions around the world on
abortion care.
And we've seen some attemptsfor that, but we haven't seen
much that's been successful.
In fact, what's beeninteresting to observe is that
(14:25):
many countries were so alarmedby what happened with Dobbs,
particularly European countries,that they took a look at their
laws and said, oh wow, we have abarrier here, we have, we
didn't realize we put thisbarrier there.
And they began to remove thesebarriers, and as you know,
France actually enshrined theright to abortion in their
(14:47):
constitution.
So it had an interesting impactand it wasn't all negative.
I think the alarm and shockthat it caused actually made
some activists in some countriessay, yeah, we we can do better,
and indeed we should do better,because we never thought the
United States would go this far.
And similarly, I think withwhat we're seeing with
(15:08):
mifopristone and the attacks onmifepristone in the US, you
know, this is extremelyworrisome, and you know, over
60% of abortions in the UnitedStates are done using
mifepristone.
They're very safe, it's a veryeffective method, it's a method
that's approved by the WorldHealth Organization, and yet our
FDA could be poised to removemifepristone from the US market,
(15:33):
and that would send shock wavesin the rest of the world, but
it remains to be seen whetherthose shock waves would all be
negative.
I just feel like the US hasreally lost a lot of its
leadership role on certainly onreproductive health and rights,
but in foreign assistance moregenerally.
So getting back to youroriginal question of how could
(15:55):
we reimagine foreign assistance,I think the way that the US
government conducted itself inthis, in the cutting of foreign
aid in such a precipitous mannerreally jolted people and
countries and governments andmade them realize that what had
(16:15):
been a reliable partner was nolonger a reliable partner.
And so when you, you know, it'sjust like any relationship,
when you realize that the personyou're negotiating with, the
person that you're working withis actually not reliable, you
make contingency plans, right?
You start figuring out, okay,well, I need to figure out how
(16:35):
to do this on my own, I need toshare up other partnerships, I
need to figure out plan, youknow, B, C, D, and E, because
this is not a reliable partner.
So I do think it offers us anopportunity.
I mean, just recently I sawthat the government of Nigeria
has actually stepped up itscontribution, its domestic
(16:58):
financing for contraception.
I think it went from 4 millionto 13 million.
So, you know, it's asignificant increase.
It's not enough, but it's asignificant increase and it's
definitely a step in the rightdirection.
And so, I think additional pushtowards domestic financing of
really what are essential healthservices is going to be what
(17:19):
we're what we're going to see.
One thing that gets lost in theconversation about US foreign
assistance, because it's soimportant and significant, and I
don't want to downplay itssignificance because, you know,
the people that are reliant onmalaria pills and HIV medication
and tuberculosis, you know,these are people's, these are
people's lives that we'retalking about.
(17:39):
And yet I do want to point outthat US, the way that US foreign
assistance was delivered wasfar from ideal.
There was always atransactional quality to it.
And frankly, just as there isfor any governmental assistance.
It's not where the UnitedStates is not alone in this.
There's, you know, so but butthe fact that the US is not
(18:03):
present or is is less of aplayer now allows donor, you
know, recipient countries toimagine and think about how they
should be providing care fortheir citizens.
And it also allows citizens andactive advocacy organizations
to push their governments toactually make good on their
(18:25):
obligations.
You know, is it right thatgovernments in poor in African
countries are dependent on anoutside donor to provide
essential health services?
This is a question that thecitizens of those countries need
to pose and need to debate andneed to discuss.
Is this how we want to conductour country, how we want to
(18:47):
govern our country?
So, I think it's provoking someof those conversations, and
that could be good.
That could actually be a stepin the right direction.
You know, a lot of the way USgovernment assistance was was
conducted was through contracts,and there it was very
project-based.
It was like, you know, we wantto provide X number of services
(19:10):
in this location for a Y numberof people.
It was a very project-basedapproach.
And those of us who have notbeen part of that ecosystem, the
US government ecosystem, whichIpas has not been because we do
not receive US governmentfunds, we have been part of an
ecosystem that is reallybuilding a movement to change, a
(19:32):
movement for social justice, amovement for reproductive
justice, in the case of Ipas, amovement for gender justice.
And that is a very rich anddiverse ecosystem.
And movement building is notproject-based.
And I think that could beanother positive outcome of this
(19:55):
reduction in U.S.
foreign assistance.
Jennie (19:57):
I was thinking kind of along similar lines of there had
been a big push around likeintegration of services, but
there were funding streams,right?
It was like here is your HIVassistance, here is your family
planning assistance.
And with things like the GlobalGag Rule that reinforced
keeping sexual and reproductivehealth separate from other forms
(20:19):
of health care, but that's nothow people live their lives,
right?
That's not how you want toaccess services.
You want to be able to go to aclinic and have all of your
needs met and not try and find aclinic where you can get this
or a clinic where you could getthat.
So, this could offer a greatopportunity without having those
restrictions that the USgovernment had with global gag
(20:42):
rule, Helms, right?
You can bring abortion servicesin from being separate.
You can have a clinic where youcan go to get health care
instead of having to go tomultiple places.
Anu (20:54):
Exactly.
Exactly, right.
And so, without the US foreignassistance or a significant
reduction in it, we have areduction in the impact of the
gag rule and the HelmsAmendment.
So that's right.
The thing that's worrisomethough is that most of the
countries that we're talkingabout are so poor and are so
much in debt that it's going tobe very difficult for them to
(21:17):
resist American money.
They need it.
They need it.
And it's very likely thatfuture American money is going
to be even more heavilyconditioned.
And I mean it remains to beseen, but you know, very likely
that that the gag rule willhave, will apply to all foreign
assistants.
It could be, it could apply tomore than just foreign NGOs, it
(21:40):
could apply to US NGOs, it couldapply to multilateral
organizations, and they mightinclude more kinds of services
and care like gender-affirmingcare or you know, who knows
about DEI.
You know, there's there's a lotthat we don't we don't know
what's what's going to happen,but it's very likely that it's
going to be even more, I wouldsay, um transactional and uh
(22:03):
ideologically restricted.
Jennie (22:06):
And you all may already know this because it may have
happened between the time werecorded and it came out, but we
will have a much deeper dive onwhat happens with the global
gag roll when it actuallyhappens.
But yeah, no, uh it it couldhave a much broader impact.
But again, thinking of thepossibilities of you know, not
(22:28):
aid coming from a top-down, thisis what we're doing, but having
communities more involved andwhat they need is like a great
vision for the future to likethink of building it to meet, be
more justice focused than justtop-down outsiders saying this
is what we're giving you.
Anu (22:49):
Yeah, and I think those conversations are happening.
You know, there's there arediscussions and conversations
that are happening both uh atthe country level, and I know
that IPAS staff and colleaguesare involved in some of those
discussions about you knowhealth financing, but there are
also conversations that aretaking place at the global level
about you know what do we do.
I think the most difficultthing has been the speed at
(23:11):
which USAID was dismantled.
Jennie (23:14):
There was no preparation for anybody.
And how do you fill that gapwhen your budget's already
committed and you weren'texpecting to all of a sudden
lose all of these services orsupplies that were provided?
Anu (23:28):
Exactly.
And you know, in addition toUSAID, you know, UNFPA has also
been impacted, and so this isalso an issue because so many of
the reproductive healthsupplies and commodities are
purchased by and through UNFPA.
So, you know, we're looking ata situation where uh some of the
leading organizations areactually really hard hit.
(23:48):
And then, of course, the NGOsector is it, you know,
particularly those organizationsthat were dependent on US
government funds, have just beenreally decimated.
And so many staff andindividuals have lost their
jobs, and then you know theimpact on real people's lives in
country, the beneficiaries ofUS government assistance is also
significant.
(24:08):
So it the ripple effect is justreally profound, and I think
everyone is trying to adjust tothis new reality.
You know, it reminds me of theway that I've been reading about
how the economic world order isalso being re-imagined and and
kind of reshuffled because theUS is is not because of the
(24:31):
tariffs.
So, you know, China actuallyhas it it's doing it's doing
well in terms of exports becauseit's found additional markets.
Brazil is exporting more toChina and other places than the
US because the US has imposedthese tariffs.
So the world is kind ofadapting and realigning in real
(24:53):
time.
I mean, like we're seeing thishappen.
You know, there was that uh themeeting that or that the summit
that took place in China, whichincluded Russia and North
Korea, and you know, those thatthose leaders.
People are are looking andsaying, all right, well, maybe
this country, maybe the UnitedStates isn't this where we
(25:14):
should center our world.
Jennie (25:16):
Yeah, and and and you were talking about like the
ripple effects, and I'm sure youexperience the same thing that
I do as you go into the nextmeeting, and all of a sudden
some you someone else sayssomething, and you're like, oh
my god, that's like anotherthing I hadn't thought about
yet.
And so it just it always feelslike there's some new nugget of
(25:36):
information or area impactedthat it it can be so
overwhelming to just think ofall of the places that need our
attention and focus.
And yeah, I just feel like inevery meeting or conversations I
have, all of a sudden it'slike, oh, yeah, nope, haven't
thought about that yet.
Okay.
Anu (25:54):
Yes, I do feel that.
And I know that my colleaguesdo as well.
And one of the hardest thingsin times like this, I think, is
to kind of stay steady and staythe course.
And I have the great advantageand benefit of working in an
organization that's reallyfocused.
You know, Ipas is focused onaccess to abortion, access to
(26:17):
contraception, this is what wedo.
We don't do a hundred things,we do this thing.
And so, you know, part of thebenefit of that is that I can
kind of keep doing my job andyou know, keep at it and try not
to filter out some of the stuffthat's that's happening on the
outside.
Though obviously it's it'schallenging because it all
(26:38):
impacts, you know, our our work.
But I think that to me that'slike the thing that we all need
to kind of embrace is almost asingle-minded focus in terms of
you know, what are you good at?
What can you do?
And do it, you know, like do itthe best you can right now.
And that is actually the onlything that we have control over.
(27:01):
I think the other feeling thatmost that a lot of people have
is just the sense of chaos anddisassembling, uh, and kind of
you know uh keeping track ofeverything, which is impossible.
Yeah, it's impossible to keeptrack of everything.
Jennie (27:20):
So and like forgiving yourself for not doing it all,
right?
Well, there's no way, right?
So, I'm one of those people whofeels like, oh god, I need to
do more, like I'm not doingenough, and like giving yourself
the grace to know like you hereare the couple things that you
are going to focus on, andtrusting others have the other
(27:42):
areas, and you can't do it all.
Anu (27:45):
Exactly.
Yeah, exactly.
And you know, I firmly believethat we that the the that
reproductive justice and genderjustice, I firmly believe that
we will actually prevail.
I think it will be longer andin the United States, but you
know, I just want to rem remindyour listeners that in the last
(28:05):
30 years, 60 countries haveliberalized their abortion laws.
You know, only a handful ofcountries have gone backwards.
Yes, one of them is the UnitedStates, but the progress is
unmistakable.
We are moving towards a worldin which this issue, the the
issue of access to abortion, isless and less a politically
(28:28):
divisive issue.
You know, obviously we're notnowhere near that in the US, but
I do think we can get there andwe just have to kind of
continue down this path andcontinue down this road.
And one of the things thatwe're doing at IPAS is to kind
of keep that focus and bring thelessons from outside of the US
to the US.
(28:49):
You know, American activists, Ithink, have a we have a lot to
learn from the rest of theworld.
Not only can we learn, but wecan also gain inspiration and
hope for what is possible.
Like I'm thinking about theGreen Wave movement, you know,
in Latin America.
And what was so powerful aboutthat movement is that it was a
movement that brought in so manyother movements.
(29:11):
So, you know, there was it wasit was a it was like a collation
of multiple movements, youknow.
And so it was the feministmovement, it was the labor
movement, it was the LGBTQImovement, it was just many
groups that get got together,and and that's why I think it
was so powerful.
And that I think is somethingto really learn from and and
draw strength from.
(29:33):
And and another feature of thatmovement that was also really
interesting to me is that overmany, many years, and and
remember Latin America, many ofthe countries in Latin America
emerged from dictatorships, youknow, and so they are very
nascent democracies in in manyways.
And so they, you know, the thefact that they were able to
(29:54):
actually bring, you know, tohave people who were both in
power, who were on their on theside of you know, changing the
gay marriage laws, changing theabortion laws, and as well as
sort of activists on the street,it's like those two groups
working together, I feel likereally led to significant
(30:15):
change, you know, in thecorridors of power and in the
streets meant that change wasreally possible.
And and that's something toaspire to.
Jennie (30:23):
Yeah, I feel that so strongly.
I've done other interviewswhere people ask, like, how like
do how do you keep doing Like,do you honestly believe we're
going to win?
And if I did not believe that,I could not do this work because
there is so much where youcould just see the the ways we
have lost and things that aren'tgoing well.
(30:45):
That if you didn't think thatwe would achieve that better
world, you couldn't do thiswork.
And so yeah, I come into itwith hope.
And, you know, it may nothappen as fast as I would like,
but I absolutely believe we willget to that better place where
people have access to the carethey need and in in all the
(31:07):
ways, right?
That's affordable, it's local,it's easy to access.
Like I fully believe in thatvision.
And if I didn't, I would giveup.
Anu (31:18):
Yeah, exactly.
Jennie (31:19):
Okay.
So I always like to end thepodcast not talking about what's
bad, but talking about whatpeople can do.
So, how can the audience getinvolved in these fights right
now?
Anu (31:33):
So, I mean, I think the the best thing we can do is to
really be as informed aspossible.
So there's great informationout there on what's happening on
abortion rights.
Of course, Ipas' website,www.ipas.org, is a font of
information about what'shappening around the world and
(31:53):
and what we can do to improvethe situation.
I do think that there areorganizations that so NGOs are
still active in this sector, andso non-profit organizations are
still really moving and stillact you know acting despite
what's happening at thegovernmental level.
And there are many partnerorganizations.
So, Ipas obviously is anorganization that you know one
(32:14):
can support, but then thenthere's IPPF, there's Marie
Stopes [International], there's,you know, there are many, and
then of course there'sPlanned Parenthood locally, and
then the Reproductive Justiceorganizations, the abortion
funds.
The abortion funds are really,really critical.
I personally I feel like theyare providing much-needed help
to individuals in our country,and they have really, they had
(32:37):
an initial surge of fundingpost-jobs, and that's really
weighed.
And so, I feel like additionalsupport to the abortion funds is
really necessary, you know, andmany of them are working in
places that are restricted,highly legally restricted.
So, you know, I think there's alot of opportunity there as
well.
There is no shortage of ways ofgetting involved right now.
(32:59):
Just need to kind of thinkabout it for a second, you know,
for a minute, and maybe do alittle light googling, and you
will find you will find ways ofgetting involved.
Jennie (33:09):
Yeah, you talked about the green wave being something
that inspires you.
And yeah, the work thatabortion funds are doing on the
ground, I find so inspirationaland always a big fan of
supporting them.
And I mean, all the places youmentioned.
And my always my note I like togive when people talk about
donating, particularly toabortion funds, but to anybody,
(33:33):
is it's great if you can giveonce, but if you can break that
up and be a monthly donor, andeven if it's small amounts, they
know they are getting thatamount every month, and that
helps them plan.
So, I'm a big proponent ofbeing a monthly supporter, and I
am a monthly supporter ofmultiple abortion funds.
Anu (33:54):
Yeah, the recurring gifts are really important.
Yeah.
It also sends a signal ofsolidarity, you know, that
you're in there for the longerterm.
It's a sense of and a feelingof like community.
One of the things that we'vebeen doing at Ipas in many
different locations is we'vebeen leading a book club called
(34:15):
Read to Resist.
Because one of the thingsthat's that has it might be
cheesy, but I really do feellike your mind is your own.
What you think and what youlearn and what you put in it is
under your control.
And so I have always drawn alot of inspiration and uh not to
(34:37):
mention learning from readingand pleasure, just enjoyment.
I read all the time.
I read fiction, I readnon-fiction.
Yeah.
So we began this book club, andit right now we meet at a local
bookstore here in NorthCarolina, but we also but it's a
you know, the the informationabout the book club is on our
website.
(34:57):
And there are books, there arebook recommendations as well on
our website, you know, and Ifind that reading about how
other movements have handledtimes of oppression is
instructive.
And I also find, like, forexample, we read Seven Necessary
Sins for Women and Girls,Mona Eltahawy, who is an
(35:18):
Egyptian feminist, you know,getting her take on as an Arab
Muslim woman, what does shethink of what she's experiencing
and feminism and women's rightsright now?
It's just a differentperspective, a different take on
the same issues that we'vespent a lot of time thinking
about, and bringing together abook club to talk about it is
(35:41):
also really helpful because youhave this sense of community and
discussion, and you know whatwhat did you get out of it?
So anyway, I encourage peopleto kind of create their own
communities and figure out waysthat they can maintain their
level of hopefulness andinspiration.
And you know, we're not theonly people to have experienced
(36:02):
this.
Other people have experiencedthis kind of political climate,
and we can learn.
We can learn from that and wecan grow.
Jennie (36:10):
I love that, and I will be going immediately to go and
see what is on the list, to seewhat I need to be reading.
I always love getting new bookrecommendations to add to my to
read list, which is endless, butstill love to add more.
Anu, thank you so much forbeing here.
It was a pleasure to talk toyou.
My pleasure.
Okay, y'all.
(36:31):
I hope you enjoyed myconversation with Anu.
Don't forget, win free merch,tag us on social media in
whatever format you would like,whatever platform you are on.
Tell us why you love thepodcast, or tell us why you
fight for sexual reproductivehealth and rights.
And each time you post and tagus, you get put once in the
(36:53):
pot to win a bunch of rePROsmerch.
So, can't wait to see who wins.
Can't wait to see y'all'sposts.
Like I said, I really lovehearing from y'all.
I really am excited to hearwhat you love about the podcast
and what makes it special.
So thank you so much foreverybody who is gonna send in
their stuff.
I can't wait to see everybodyat APHA, and I will see
(37:14):
everybody else next week.
If you have any questions,comments, or topics you would
like us to cover, always feelfree to shoot me an email.
You can reach me atjennie@reprosfightback.com, or
you can find us on social media.
We're at rePROs Fight Back onFacebook and Twitter, or
@reprosfb on Instagram.
(37:35):
If you love our podcast andwant to make sure more people
find it, take the time to rateand review us on your favorite
podcast platform, or if you wantto make sure to support the
podcast, you can also donate onour website at
reprosfightBack.com.
Thanks all!
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