November 25, 2025 • 39 mins
No one’s health experiences exist in a vacuum. Individuals live multifaceted lives and often have multiple, intersecting health concerns. Our health influences our lives, and our lives (including our economic realities) influence our health. Nourbese Flint, President of All* Above All and All* in All Action Fund, sits down to talk with us about how comprehensive reproductive justice, including abortion access, requires economic security.
To achieve full reproductive justice, people need access to abortion care. To access abortion care, people need economic security. Being unable to access abortion can lead to a host of negative outcomes, including but not limited to economic insecurity. In the U.S., money and access to healthcare go hand-in-hand.
The Hyde Amendment refuses to cover abortion care for those who receive their insurance from the federal government, forcing specific people to pay out-of-pocket for an abortion. And, more broadly, general healthcare continues to be impacted by the government shutdown, which was negotiated on the back of Affordable Care Act subsidies. Since Trump’s second inauguration, funding freezes have impacted vast swaths of those working in sexual and reproductive health and rights both in the U.S. and abroad. General healthcare is not, in any way, disconnected from abortion access, and both issues closely intertwine. Maternal health, obstetrics, delivery, rural hospitals, and more are also impacted.
For more information, check out Amicus with Dhalia Lithwick: https://slate.com/podcasts/amicus
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:35):
Welcome to RePro Spike Back, a podcast on all
things related to sexual andreproductive health rights and
justice.
Hi, Repros.
How's everybody doing?
I'm your host, Jenny Wetter, andmy pronouns are she, her.
So, y'all, I had a great weeklast week.
I got to go up to New York tothe Anthem Awards reception.
(00:58):
I'm still flying high on winningthe award, and it was so great
to go and meet other awardwinners, people who were doing
things that were so differentfrom what we were doing.
It was just, it was wonderfuland meeting people who were
doing things to make change.
It was just a fun night ofcelebration and getting to hear
(01:22):
about so many interestingprojects.
It was just really wonderful.
Um I'm so grateful to the AnthemAwards.
And I also was so excited when Icame back on Wednesday and was
on LinkedIn seeing all of thesepeople I knew who had work that
was honored.
It was just so wonderful.
It made me so happy for theamazing people I know and
(01:46):
friends who had worked that hadwon awards that I didn't know
about in advance.
So I just huge congratulationsto all the other award winners.
I'm feeling so proud and excitedfor my friends who had worked
that won.
And I am so proud and excitedfor my team, for our award, and
(02:06):
just so grateful to have won.
It was really wonderful, even ifit was a lot, meaning I had two
trips to New York in like acouple days' time span.
It was just, it has been a goodweek, which is good because I
needed that because it is thattime of year where I have like
multiple deadlines all at thesame time, and I'm feeling very
(02:29):
chaotic and overwhelmed, andlike there are so many things
happening that are all due atthe same time with really short
turnarounds, and it's just beena lot.
And I have felt just stretchedvery, very thin at the moment.
And I am very much lookingforward to having the
Thanksgiving break to like notthink about some of this stuff.
(02:51):
And but it also means that thedeadlines are all before that,
to get things done before thebreak.
So if it's a little crazy rightnow, I'm hoping it'll be a good,
restful Thanksgiving to justrelax and take some time away.
I don't have anything reallyplanned.
So I'm just gonna have a reallyquiet, chill, long weekend.
(03:12):
So hopefully they'll give me theopportunity to recharge after,
like I said, things being alittle chaotic right now.
I'm trying to think if I haveanything else really exciting to
talk about.
I don't think so.
I think I'm ready to just hopinto this week's episode.
It was a great conversation.
I talked to Norbese Flint withAll Above All.
We were talking aboutreproductive justice, equity,
(03:35):
and the fight ahead and lookingat the many different areas
where abortion rights are linkedto economics, healthcare,
women's safety.
It was a really wonderful, kindof far-ranging conversation.
I hope you all enjoy myconversation with Nor Base.
Hi, Nor Basey.
(03:55):
Thank you so much for being heretoday.
SPEAKER_01 (03:57):
I am so delighted to be with you today.
SPEAKER_00 (03:59):
I'm so excited to talk to you.
You know, so often when we talkabout abortion, we focus in on
access and talk about why accessis important, but it affects so
many other things that I'mexcited we're gonna dig into
that today.
But before we do that, would youlike to take a second and
introduce yourself and includeyour pronouns?
SPEAKER_01 (04:17):
Yeah, so my name is Nerbese Flint.
I use she her pronouns.
I am the president of All AboveAll and All in Action and the
All Action Pack, which is ourC3C4 and pack, come from Los
Angeles, but now reside in DC.
And mom of I'm not a toddleranymore.
I guess you're just a littleboy, a four-year-old, that keeps
(04:40):
my life going.
SPEAKER_00 (04:42):
It's like one of those all of a sudden you like
look and you're like, oh, you'relike a little man now.
Like you're not just like alittle baby.
SPEAKER_01 (04:50):
Yeah, he's just like, oh mom.
And I was like, it's alreadystarting.
Oh no.
Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (05:00):
Okay.
So I'm really excited to havethis more talking about broader
impacts of abortion restrictionsbecause I think they're so
important.
Like access is important.
It is important we make surethat people have access, but
there are broader reasons why itis important.
Maybe let's start with umeconomic security.
How does abortion access andrestrictions impact economic
(05:21):
security?
SPEAKER_01 (05:22):
Yeah, so when people are making decisions about their
pregnancy and parenting, itusually goes hand in hand with
their economic lives, whetherthey can afford rent, child
care, food, healthcare, all thethings that we call kitchen
table issues, right, are caughtup into their pregnancy,
pregnancy and parenting andwhether, if and when you want to
(05:43):
start family.
And so for when we think abouttrue autonomy, whether, or true
autonomy, I guess the the bestway to say it, is um you need to
we need to think about all thesethings as one, right?
So for people to have trueautonomy or whether and when to
grow their families, it goeshand in hand with their ability
(06:04):
to think about theirlivelihoods.
And so the the link betweeneconomic justice and
reproductive justice is one thatcan't be broken.
It's one that we always talkabout like hand in hand.
It's one of the reasons why areproductive justice framework
exists because we know thatthere's many intersectional
issues that are tied to if,when, and whether you decide to
(06:26):
have children.
SPEAKER_00 (06:27):
It's one of those things that seems so like
fundamental and like obvious.
Like, yeah, all these things gointo making a decision if you're
gonna have, if you're gonnacontinue the pregnancy, if you
want to get pregnant, but sooften get lost from the
conversation when like you'rehaving the broader conversation
(06:47):
around abortion.
But it's like if you think aboutit for a second, you're like,
yeah, what goes into making thatdecision at that time in your
life?
And your economic situation is ahuge part of it.
And it also impacts if you canget the abortion.
SPEAKER_01 (07:01):
Right.
So from both ends of thespectrum, right, economic
justice is a a true piece of it,right?
And I what we I talk about veryoften the idea that if someone
is making a decision abouthaving a child or not having a
child because of like they can'tget time off from work or they
(07:26):
can't afford to pay their rentor they don't have enough food,
that's actually not truedecision making.
That's not true autonomy overyour life.
That is making really harddecisions.
If we are really talking about aworld that is like full of
reproductive justice values, onefull of liberation, one for true
autonomy, that means that peopleare deciding if and when they
(07:49):
grow family really on that ofwhat's good for them, and not
because of all these externalfactors that are forcing their
hand and their decision, right?
I think about this quite oftenas a person who again a mom, and
often we're like, where did allmy money go?
(08:09):
And just like the clothes, thethe like I felt like my child
like grew overnight one day, andI was just like, You can't fit
your pants anymore.
So we had to go get all thesepants, right?
So like all these things are Iwould also say, like, there's
just so many like half-eatenthings of food in my house
because he likes he tried to eatthis and then didn't like it
(08:32):
anymore, right?
And this like we had to keepexperimenting, um, and then
healthcare costs, and so allthese things are like deeply
important to me being able tolike be able to provide and like
be a good parent, and like allof that is tied to my economic
like well-being, right?
(08:53):
And if we are really wanting tohave a full conversation about
people being able to live ajoyous life, to live thriving
lives, right?
It is one that people are ableto have the economic security
and well-being.
And then with when you talkabout abortion access, we also
(09:14):
know right now that likedepending on your zip code, that
depends your access, right?
And if you are having to travel,if you are having to like take
off time from work, if you arehaving to schedule child care,
all those pieces in order to getyour abortion, right?
(09:34):
That also has an economic impacton your life as well.
And a lot of times we likepeople think that like, oh well,
abortion access, it's easy.
It's actually really hard.
SPEAKER_00 (09:45):
And the had you then, right?
Like jobs did not change that,it made it so much worse.
SPEAKER_01 (09:51):
So much.
And like if you live somewherein the southeast or like kind of
the middle of the country,they're just thousands of miles
that you have to travel in orderto get access.
SPEAKER_00 (10:03):
Yeah, I mean, I feel like we've talked about this on
the podcast when we've talkedabout that complicated web that
people need to navigate to getaccess, right?
Because it's not just let me godown to the clinic that's close.
It's the I might need to takeoff work.
I might I need to figure out howI'm gonna pay for it, my
insurance doesn't cover it, Idon't have insurance, like all
(10:26):
of the things.
Then it's oh, there's a waitingperiod.
So now I need to make that triptwice, and that's two days off
of work, or two days of childcare and travel, and it may not
be close, or it's a hotel room,and now it's like I have to fly
somewhere to get access.
(10:47):
Like all of these thingsinteract together to again, like
you said, prevent you from beingable to make the decision.
Because how can you make adecision if you can't afford to
make the decision?
Like that that's forcing yourhand.
SPEAKER_01 (11:01):
And I think that is that is the orange story of all.
So the Affordable Care Actpassed way back in, I think it
was 2011.
I think in 2010, 2011, somethinglike that.
Yes, 2010, 2011, where we livedin a very different world.
Um, yeah.
But the compromise was abortion,right?
(11:22):
They kept the Hyde Amendment,and our founders got together
and said, like, no more, we arenot compromising on women's
backs, low-income folks' backs,because what the hyde amendment
does is it prevents folks whowork for the federal government,
who both are contractors of thefederal government, if you are
(11:46):
Medicaid or Medicare, if you'rein the Indian Health Service,
you have to come out of pocketfor abortion access, right?
Which means that your ability toget affordable, available, and
accessible abortions really islimited when you have to figure
out how to come out of pocket,which is something different
(12:07):
than any other piece ofhealthcare that we have, right?
And so this is why we likestarted, um, and also why that
the piece around economicjustice and abortion access was
baked into the founding of ourorganization, because we know
those things cannot be takenapart, no matter how many times
(12:31):
people have tried, whether inCongress or in seats, and that
we need to relink those piecestogether and make sure when
we're talking about pregnancy,when we're talking about
abortion access and thecontinuum of care, that we are
also talking about economics.
SPEAKER_00 (12:46):
Yeah, and that leads perfectly into the next area I
was gonna talk about, which ishealthcare access.
Because, you know, you talkedabout the abortion part and
that, you know, the HydeAmendment and the way the
Affordable Care Act was donefurther limited people's ability
to access abortion as healthcare, but it also has impacts on
broader healthcare access.
(13:07):
Do you want to talk about thatpart a little bit?
SPEAKER_01 (13:09):
Yeah, so God, where do we get?
SPEAKER_00 (13:12):
I could talk about it.
I know, right?
Let me ask you real small, easyquestions.
SPEAKER_01 (13:17):
So, I mean, there's a couple of pieces.
So if we take even like what'sbeen happening today with the
government shutdown, thegovernment shutdown was on the
ACA, but the AC Day subsidies,and one of the conversations
that were quietly happeningbehind the scenes was one about
abortion access.
And it was said that um whatthey were trying to do is try to
(13:42):
again try to do a backdoorabortion ban where right now
there are segmented pieces inwhich people pay for their
abortion access for statesthat'll have abortion access,
right, and provide it, andthey're trying to ban that even,
right?
And we which is just such acrazy piece because we know that
(14:03):
abortion is healthcare and thatpregnancy is health care, and
that this conversation of againtrying to pull it out into this
other world of like, oh, wedon't need to think about
abortion as a healthcare issue,is like when we think about
pregnancy as a healthcare issue,and this is just one of the many
(14:26):
ways in which there's an endingto a pregnancy, which they all
end somehow.
And so it's either abortion,miscarriage, or um like birth.
And so the conversation whereour job is to bring the abortion
access back into healthcare andalso not make it a leverage
point of like essentially folkswho are trying to dismantle and
(14:51):
disassembled like people'sbodies to make it seem like your
uterus can be in a differentplace than the rest of your
body.
SPEAKER_00 (14:59):
I think the other thing I've been thinking about
too is how certain conversationsare presented as like
disconnected from the abortionconversation, but are totally
part of it.
So with states having a numberof states having really harsh
abortion restrictions, you'veseen hospitals having like
closing their labor and deliveryunits.
(15:21):
So like that is blocking accessfor not just abortion care, but
blocking access for labor anddelivery, for maternal health
care, and and all of that ishappening at the same time.
We need to have thatconversation around the maternal
mortality rate in this country,and it is high, it is
particularly high for blackwomen.
(15:42):
Like we these all need to be inconversation together because it
is all part of that sameconversation.
SPEAKER_01 (15:49):
It is.
And I think there's a couple ofpieces there too, right?
So, one in thinking aboutMedicaid, we also understand,
like with a big ugly bill thatgot passed, that right after the
midterm elections, we'reactually gonna see the impact of
what that is, right?
So they timed it out, and whatthat means is the rural
(16:09):
hospitals um and other likespaces are going to be closed,
and that's closed for everybody.
And then the second point thatyou're saying um around the
maternal mortality rates, yes,we've seen absolutely in places
where there have been abortionbans, there has been an increase
in both maternal mortality ratesand infant mortality rates.
(16:30):
Because we know when people donot get the care that they need,
it impacts all aspects of yourlife.
And we, I think it's just againto like under, it can't be
understated that abortion careis a part of this healthcare
piece, and when people arehaving to go without, when
(16:52):
people are having to travel,when people are not getting the
care that they need, so they arecarrying pregnancies that are
risky and like not unwanted inall these other pieces, that
that puts everybody, likepeople's families at risk.
We saw like a horrible exampleof that in Georgia, where we had
(17:13):
this black woman who had passedaway and they had kept her alive
as an incubator for baby.
Her family had to figure out howto take care of against their
will, right?
SPEAKER_00 (17:26):
Um, because of a Yeah, I think that's the like
clear part, right?
Like they didn't they weren'tthe ones who made the decision
to keep her alive.
SPEAKER_01 (17:35):
No, not at all.
And this is again, like, is thisthe most egregious way in which
that we saw somebody's autonomyjust could violate it?
And these are just the storiesthat we've heard.
SPEAKER_00 (17:49):
That is the part that always worries me, right?
Is like the stories we hear areso heartbreaking and I I hope
are helping m change people'shearts and minds.
But I just think of the peoplewhose stories you don't hear,
the people who also aren'tgetting the information they
need, whether that be findingout that there's an abortion
(18:09):
fund that could help them payfor an abortion, or finding out
that there are ways that theycould access pills online, like
the people that don't haveaccess to the information that
could help them and are trulyforced into making a decision
that they wouldn't have madeotherwise.
SPEAKER_01 (18:26):
Right.
And so that I think that's againthe heart of the work, and
that's also the heart of likereproductive justice on the
tenant of like being able todecide if you want to have
family or not, if you want tohave family, and the the right
to be able to have and raiseyour family with dignity in a
(18:46):
sustainable environment.
SPEAKER_00 (18:47):
The other thing I've been thinking is we're talking
is like we're we were talkingabout things that are on like
the front end, right?
We're talking about the theeconomics in making the decision
whether or not to have the kid,or if they can pay for that
abortion, or the impacts ontheir health.
I I feel like we're just likegoing through the turnaway study
(19:09):
on impacts of having not havingthe wanted abortion, right?
We saw that they the turnawaystudy showed that there was a
higher maternal mortality rateassociated with not having the
wanted abortion.
They saw that there wasincreased economic insecurity
for longer.
Another big one that is likenearer and dear to my heart as a
(19:31):
survivor of intermittent partnerviolence is the increased uh
risk of staying with the partnerwhen you are in a violent
relationship.
So it feels like a good time tomaybe turn and talk about
women's safety as another partof this uh abortion
conversation.
SPEAKER_01 (19:49):
Yeah, you're exactly right.
And thank you for sharing thepiece around like one, there's
like all these factors that gointo abortion access.
Part of those factors is one,there's the safety of like your
actual health and safety.
And what I mean by actual healthand safety in the sense of we
(20:11):
know that like with the Idahoand the Intala law, that people
are having to get helicopteredout because they showed up to
hospitals and they were deniedservice.
And then we also know thatthere's your actual health and
safety when it comes to like theenvironment that you're in, and
what that means for both IPV andalso your economic security and
(20:34):
the different again, thedifferent ways in which people
are trying to figure out how tosurvive in the world.
And so abortion access is againincredibly linked to all these
intersectional issues, andagain, when we see a space that
or a state that decreased accessto abortion, all the pieces
(20:57):
around whether it's infinitematernal mortality, whether it's
morbidity, and morbidity, andwhat I mean by that is where
people did not die but get very,very sick, um lose an organ, all
these other pieces are are notbeing able to have a child again
go up.
(21:18):
And so, yeah, your safety isagain completely linked to
abortion access.
SPEAKER_00 (21:23):
This is the part I really love about uh
reproductive justice is youbrings all of these
conversations into one placebecause so often they are
happening in silos, right?
Like maybe somebody will talkabout abortion and economic
security, or somebody will talkabout the other healthcare
stuff, or somebody may talkabout intimate partner violence,
but it's not often you hear thelike, let's talk about all of it
(21:44):
at the same time because it'sall happening.
People are having multifacetedlives where these are impacts
that they are experiencing allof them at once.
SPEAKER_01 (21:53):
Yeah, as a person who grew up in the reproductive
justice phase, it was alwaystalked about like that.
And it's talked about thatbecause that's the way people
live their lives.
At some point in people's lives,they like might want to have a
child, and some people, at somepoint in people's lives, they
don't.
At some point in people's lives,their well, in all people, all
(22:17):
times in people's lives, theireconomic security and well-being
is a part of how they decidefamily.
One of the things that I used towork on was environmental issues
because we know that impactsyour ability of whether you want
to have family or not.
And your pregnancy.
I remember one study that waslooking at pollution and how
(22:39):
that had an impact on infantmortality and low infant birth
weights, right?
And so all these things areconnected, and I just give a lot
of thanks to the black womenthat started reproductive
justice, and they started itafter coming from the Fourth
World Conference on at Cairowith this idea of we need to
(23:01):
figure out how to have aframework that blends the
reproductive rights and thehuman rights framework that
folks were learning about andliving in the everyday
experiences.
I remind folks while a lot offolks were fighting for the
right not to have children, formany women of color, they were
fighting for the right to havechildren.
(23:23):
So, this is why we think aboutthis and this continuum of care,
and why we think about aframework that has all of these
pieces, because that isabsolutely how people live their
lives.
SPEAKER_00 (23:34):
So, one of the things we always are have to
deal with is funding and wherethe funding is coming from and
what donors are interested infunding.
What are some of the thingsyou're running into right now?
SPEAKER_01 (23:46):
Yeah, so unfortunately, I think across
the social justice space, andit's been pretty much a freeze
in funding.
Since the inauguration of Trump,everybody is struggling to like
we have the resources uh that weneed in order to like fight the
(24:06):
good fight.
And the time where to fight thegood fight, it's absolutely like
imperative to the like where ournation is going.
I know that we've experiencedfolks who really were just like,
Oh well, Bush is not the hotbutton issue anymore, so we
don't need to think about this,which like breaks my heart
(24:27):
because of how we know that thisis still an issue that every day
people are having to figure out,right?
Like the Dobbs decision didn'tgo away.
Places where they have abortionbans are still there, so like
the idea that like because it'snot in the news, because it's
getting, for lack of a betterway, drowned out by a million
(24:51):
different things, that like thisthing is not still important,
again, breaks my heart.
But also, it just like really itpushes me to also be like, Can
we walk and true government atthe same time?
Right?
Like, we need to be able totackle the democracy, the
fascism, the economic security,and abortion and pregnancy and
(25:15):
healthcare all at the same time,because that is what it's called
for us to do.
SPEAKER_00 (25:20):
Yeah.
Uh I I feel like this is one ofthose I I try to talk about on
the podcast, particularly aroundthe so much of the increase in
funding people saw was like therage donating, right?
Roe felt people were reallyangry, so they gave money, or
they'll see a new headline andit would donate.
(25:41):
And now that there are so manyattacks on so many different
things, I feel like you'vedefinitely seen that come down.
And it makes it really hard fororganizations to get the money,
and the need has not decreased,right?
So, and and we never had enoughto meet the need of all of the
people who needed help.
So it makes it extraheartbreaking to then have to
(26:04):
and the need has gone up in theway that now we're talking about
having to fly people out ofstate to get access or put them
up in hotel rooms.
So the price has gone up, butthe money has not, and it makes
it really hard.
SPEAKER_01 (26:19):
Right.
People are having to travel.
Um, and then just the not to belike on the edge of like running
an organization, but like yeah,yeah, that also has like the
cost of like running orgs,right?
Like all of us have to startthinking about security now
because folks are gettingattacked.
We had a rally, we usually dorallies of in front of the um
(26:41):
SCOTUS after importantdecisions, and like our folks
got assaulted, right?
And like these are things thatare happening that like at the
same time we are losing funding,that abortion is in like in dire
circumstances, and organizationsare having to like lift more as
(27:01):
we figure out how to navigatethis world that we're in, where
like I talked to my ourorganizational lawyer way more
than uh I feel I had to in thelast 10 years, because we have
to make sure that like, or noteven make sure, we have to guard
ourselves in ways that we hadn'tbefore.
(27:22):
We saw with that EO thepresident signed that made it
essentially against America, forlack of a better way of saying
it, that if you work on race orgender or class issues or the
combination of those pieces,that that is anti-America.
And that is where we sit in thework, right, of looking at race,
(27:47):
class, and gender.
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (27:48):
And I would have just added to that mix the
groups that are serviceproviders who then have also
lost government funding or hadtheir funding frozen.
So it not to be a downer, y'all.
I know often the podcast can bedown or since we talk about what
is happening, but things arepretty bleak and times are hard
(28:10):
for uh a lot of theorganizations in the space.
It is.
But and not equally, notequally.
SPEAKER_01 (28:18):
And yeah, I thank you for bringing up the service
providers because yeah, our ourservice providers are also
filling it very much for theirpersonal safety, and then the
organizations that they work atum are filling it as well.
But I would say in all of this,there still is a light at the
end of the tunnel for me.
SPEAKER_00 (28:36):
Yes.
I I'm sure you get asked thisquestion a lot because I know I
get asked it, but like the howdo you keep doing this?
And my answer is because I knowwe're gonna win.
Like it maybe not be soon, butlike we're gonna win.
SPEAKER_01 (28:50):
Right, we're on the right side of history.
Yeah, but I think what I alsodidn't put in my intro is that I
am a big sci-fi nerd.
Um, and that like like guides mylife.
I look at a lot of Star Trek, itsets a world of like this is
where we're trying to go.
But I think about that and how Iapply my work today.
(29:11):
And although Roe did was the lawof the land and did a lot for
access, we know it was thefloor, not the ceiling.
And that there is an opportunityfor us in the kind of
destruction to have a Phoenixmoment of like, let's start
(29:32):
building the type of access thatwe need.
Let's start organizing aroundthe ways in which abortion is a
healthcare issue, and build inthe pieces around race and
gender that we hadn't donebefore into what is new.
We are in a space of bothincredible destruction, but also
(29:59):
an opportunity gives us anopportunity to start building
the world that we've never seen.
And what gives me a lot of hopeis that I have the opportunity
to do as much as I can for aslong as I can, so I can pass
that baton to the next crew offolks that can take it to the
(30:20):
world that we have theliberation, right?
And that is that's the mission,right?
And I feel like I get to wakeup.
Every day and fight with folkswho are down, down as hell to do
this type of work.
And so, like, yes, times areincredibly hard.
(30:42):
But I also note that I come froma legacy of folks that times
have been really hard and theypersevered.
And so I'm taking that type ofenergy of like, what is new?
Like, we have a harder job to dobecause we're trying to go
forward, not backwards.
But there's just such anopportunity to like build the
thing that we need and toorganize people.
(31:04):
And people are hungry to beorganized, hungry to be
organized.
And so, like, let's lean intothe moment.
And then, yeah, that gives me alot of hope.
SPEAKER_00 (31:13):
There is so much, like you said, it it times are
hard and it there are days,right?
You have days where you're like,oh, like I'm ready to quit and
like go.
I always joke about like I'mgonna open my bakery bookstore
and like that, that's it.
I'm just like gonna walk away.
But it's like a day, and oftennot a full day.
(31:33):
Like, I you have a rough day.
But then I look at all of theamazing people that I am lucky
enough to work with that are sopassionate and bring their full
hearts and their selves to thiswork to build this better world.
And then look at the work thatis being done on the ground by
the reproductive justiceadvocates, by the abortion
funds, by the clinics, everyonewho's doing the work to ensure
(31:55):
that they are able to help asmany people as they can right
now while also building for thatbetter world where we have a
much better system built toensure that people can access
the care they need easily,affordably.
Like in my vision, like accessmeans all the things, right?
(32:15):
Like you are just going down thestreet, like it's easy to get
the care, it's embedded, it'sfree, like all the things.
And and we're all in this fighttogether, and that makes it
easier to keep going.
And yeah, you may have that daywhere you're like, I can't do
it.
But like mostly I can see justthe fight we're in, and I am
(32:38):
happy to be in that fight withso many wonderful people like
you.
SPEAKER_01 (32:41):
Thank you.
And I would also say the bakeryis needed.
So if you like want to do that,like we have to also be
incredibly creative on how we'reorganizing.
So one of the things that we didwas start a book club.
It was supposed to be a romancebook club, and it was supposed
to be like a place for people togather because community is
(33:02):
really, really important.
SPEAKER_00 (33:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (33:03):
They decided to go to nonfiction real hard.
I was like, oh, we're notreading our soft stuff.
Um, but it's a space ofcommunity and also a space where
we can like like ask folks tohelp us like volunteer when we
need to like turn on and likehave to like you know, call
people or like send texts andthings like that, right?
(33:25):
And so like finding community inall the ways that we make and
have community is likeincredibly important.
So, like, I don't want folks tothink that like if you're a
flowerist that like and your jobis like and you do beautiful
flowering, that like somehow youare not part of the movement
(33:46):
work.
No, like there are so manythings, like weenie flowers,
right?
I had a friend told me that likeshe was getting some stuff
printed around a workshop shewas doing around like fascism,
and the manager saw like what itwas while I was printing and
gave her 50% off.
(34:06):
And was this like a week and aknot?
There are just so many ways inwhich like everybody can be in
this fight.
SPEAKER_00 (34:13):
You could have a tip bucket that goes to abortion
funds, or like you can do somany different things, even just
a place that's for literature orthings that people when people
come in your shop, they canlearn more about the things.
SPEAKER_01 (34:25):
Yeah, and like that's what I'm like really
encouraging and inviting folkspeople to do is like to get
really inventive and creative inways that we can fight the
movement or like to join themovement, excuse me, because
there's so many creative ways,and that's what we need.
SPEAKER_00 (34:40):
And again, things that bring joy.
We always love everything thatbrings joy.
Okay, so I always love to endnot just talking about what's
wrong and all the things thatare happening, but with what can
the audience do?
How can the audience getinvolved in this moment?
SPEAKER_01 (34:57):
Yeah, so I think of it as my three T's time,
treasure, and talent.
And time, I would say, like justwhat we were talking about,
volunteer, join community, havehouse parties.
We have a reproductive justicetoolkit on our website that you
can download if you're like, Ineed to figure out how to do a
(35:18):
house party, and has everythingfrom like political education
and places to read to like drinkideas.
Um, because like we like to bethe joy and the fun into the
pieces, but yes, we like one ofthe biggest things that we can
do is build community, and thatdoesn't mean like build
(35:38):
community in DC, if that's notwhere you're at, that's building
it in the streets andneighborhoods of where your
community is because you are thebest messenger for your friends
and your family, and part of thereason why we're in this like
crazy alternate world of anightmare is because we've lost
community, and so buildingcommunity, having and hosting
(36:01):
space, meeting your neighbors isincredibly important in the
fight, right?
And then the second piece istalent.
So, like as people are trying tofigure out how to like make
things work, funding's gettingharder.
Like, people's talents areincredibly important.
(36:22):
I have a couple of friends whowork in kind of the Hollywood
industry with producing and likewriting scripts, and they have
donated their time, and it'sbeen immensely great.
I am a tutorist major, I am nota person who can write comedy or
like other types of scripts, butwe need that, and that is like
(36:45):
everybody has something like atalent that they can offer to
the space that um if you link upwith an organization that will
be incredibly helpful to helpthem build and build community
to build activists, even if it'sjust like make stuff look nice
to make people feel a littlejoy.
That is all super important, andthen of course, I would say the
(37:07):
treasures to donate, and thereare many organizations across
this country, a lot ofreproductive justice
organizations that are doing,for lack of a way to say it,
God's work with like shoestringbudgets, and those dollars,
particularly unrestricteddollars, which are the ones that
(37:29):
folks don't need, can go so farin helping folks being able to
continue the work, whether thatis providing for abortion
access, whether that isproviding food at a like after
this meeting, whether that ispaying for supplies, all those
things are just so deeplyimportant.
So there's just a ton of workthat folks can be doing.
(37:51):
And if you need to know more,you could always say this up the
all above all.
Because yeah, we we loveorganizing with folks, but this
is again, this is not aspectator sport.
We need everybody in the game.
SPEAKER_00 (38:03):
Uh Nor Base, that was perfect.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
I really loved all of your takeaction, and it was so wonderful
to talk to you.
Thank you for having me.
Okay, y'all.
Like I said, I hope you enjoyedmy conversation with Norbese.
I had a really great timegetting to talk to her, and I
hope you all have a wonderfulThanksgiving weekend, however
you are spending it, um, andthat you get some time with
(38:26):
friends or family and a chanceto recharge, because now it is
all of a sudden like the end ofthe year, and it's all these
things to get done.
So I hope everyone has awonderful Thanksgiving, and I
will see y'all next week.
If you have any questions,comments, or topics you would
like us to cover, always feelfree to shoot me an email.
You can reach me at Jenny,J-E-N-N-I-E at Reprospyth.com,
(38:50):
or you can find us on socialmedia.
We're at Reprose FightBack onFacebook and Twitter, or Reprose
F on Instagram.
If you love our podcast and wantto make sure more people find
it, take the time to rate andreview us on your favorite
podcast platform.
Or if you want to make sure tosupport the podcast, you can
also donate on our website atreprospiteback.com.
(39:11):
Thanks all.
Welcome to RePro Spike Back, a podcast on all
things related to sexual andreproductive health rights and
justice.
Hi, Repros.
How's everybody doing?
I'm your host, Jenny Wetter, andmy pronouns are she, her.
So, y'all, I had a great weeklast week.
I got to go up to New York tothe Anthem Awards reception.
(00:58):
I'm still flying high on winningthe award, and it was so great
to go and meet other awardwinners, people who were doing
things that were so differentfrom what we were doing.
It was just, it was wonderfuland meeting people who were
doing things to make change.
It was just a fun night ofcelebration and getting to hear
(01:22):
about so many interestingprojects.
It was just really wonderful.
Um I'm so grateful to the AnthemAwards.
And I also was so excited when Icame back on Wednesday and was
on LinkedIn seeing all of thesepeople I knew who had work that
was honored.
It was just so wonderful.
It made me so happy for theamazing people I know and
(01:46):
friends who had worked that hadwon awards that I didn't know
about in advance.
So I just huge congratulationsto all the other award winners.
I'm feeling so proud and excitedfor my friends who had worked
that won.
And I am so proud and excitedfor my team, for our award, and
(02:06):
just so grateful to have won.
It was really wonderful, even ifit was a lot, meaning I had two
trips to New York in like acouple days' time span.
It was just, it has been a goodweek, which is good because I
needed that because it is thattime of year where I have like
multiple deadlines all at thesame time, and I'm feeling very
(02:29):
chaotic and overwhelmed, andlike there are so many things
happening that are all due atthe same time with really short
turnarounds, and it's just beena lot.
And I have felt just stretchedvery, very thin at the moment.
And I am very much lookingforward to having the
Thanksgiving break to like notthink about some of this stuff.
(02:51):
And but it also means that thedeadlines are all before that,
to get things done before thebreak.
So if it's a little crazy rightnow, I'm hoping it'll be a good,
restful Thanksgiving to justrelax and take some time away.
I don't have anything reallyplanned.
So I'm just gonna have a reallyquiet, chill, long weekend.
(03:12):
So hopefully they'll give me theopportunity to recharge after,
like I said, things being alittle chaotic right now.
I'm trying to think if I haveanything else really exciting to
talk about.
I don't think so.
I think I'm ready to just hopinto this week's episode.
It was a great conversation.
I talked to Norbese Flint withAll Above All.
We were talking aboutreproductive justice, equity,
(03:35):
and the fight ahead and lookingat the many different areas
where abortion rights are linkedto economics, healthcare,
women's safety.
It was a really wonderful, kindof far-ranging conversation.
I hope you all enjoy myconversation with Nor Base.
Hi, Nor Basey.
(03:55):
Thank you so much for being heretoday.
SPEAKER_01 (03:57):
I am so delighted to be with you today.
SPEAKER_00 (03:59):
I'm so excited to talk to you.
You know, so often when we talkabout abortion, we focus in on
access and talk about why accessis important, but it affects so
many other things that I'mexcited we're gonna dig into
that today.
But before we do that, would youlike to take a second and
introduce yourself and includeyour pronouns?
SPEAKER_01 (04:17):
Yeah, so my name is Nerbese Flint.
I use she her pronouns.
I am the president of All AboveAll and All in Action and the
All Action Pack, which is ourC3C4 and pack, come from Los
Angeles, but now reside in DC.
And mom of I'm not a toddleranymore.
I guess you're just a littleboy, a four-year-old, that keeps
(04:40):
my life going.
SPEAKER_00 (04:42):
It's like one of those all of a sudden you like
look and you're like, oh, you'relike a little man now.
Like you're not just like alittle baby.
SPEAKER_01 (04:50):
Yeah, he's just like, oh mom.
And I was like, it's alreadystarting.
Oh no.
Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (05:00):
Okay.
So I'm really excited to havethis more talking about broader
impacts of abortion restrictionsbecause I think they're so
important.
Like access is important.
It is important we make surethat people have access, but
there are broader reasons why itis important.
Maybe let's start with umeconomic security.
How does abortion access andrestrictions impact economic
(05:21):
security?
SPEAKER_01 (05:22):
Yeah, so when people are making decisions about their
pregnancy and parenting, itusually goes hand in hand with
their economic lives, whetherthey can afford rent, child
care, food, healthcare, all thethings that we call kitchen
table issues, right, are caughtup into their pregnancy,
pregnancy and parenting andwhether, if and when you want to
(05:43):
start family.
And so for when we think abouttrue autonomy, whether, or true
autonomy, I guess the the bestway to say it, is um you need to
we need to think about all thesethings as one, right?
So for people to have trueautonomy or whether and when to
grow their families, it goeshand in hand with their ability
(06:04):
to think about theirlivelihoods.
And so the the link betweeneconomic justice and
reproductive justice is one thatcan't be broken.
It's one that we always talkabout like hand in hand.
It's one of the reasons why areproductive justice framework
exists because we know thatthere's many intersectional
issues that are tied to if,when, and whether you decide to
(06:26):
have children.
SPEAKER_00 (06:27):
It's one of those things that seems so like
fundamental and like obvious.
Like, yeah, all these things gointo making a decision if you're
gonna have, if you're gonnacontinue the pregnancy, if you
want to get pregnant, but sooften get lost from the
conversation when like you'rehaving the broader conversation
(06:47):
around abortion.
But it's like if you think aboutit for a second, you're like,
yeah, what goes into making thatdecision at that time in your
life?
And your economic situation is ahuge part of it.
And it also impacts if you canget the abortion.
SPEAKER_01 (07:01):
Right.
So from both ends of thespectrum, right, economic
justice is a a true piece of it,right?
And I what we I talk about veryoften the idea that if someone
is making a decision abouthaving a child or not having a
child because of like they can'tget time off from work or they
(07:26):
can't afford to pay their rentor they don't have enough food,
that's actually not truedecision making.
That's not true autonomy overyour life.
That is making really harddecisions.
If we are really talking about aworld that is like full of
reproductive justice values, onefull of liberation, one for true
autonomy, that means that peopleare deciding if and when they
(07:49):
grow family really on that ofwhat's good for them, and not
because of all these externalfactors that are forcing their
hand and their decision, right?
I think about this quite oftenas a person who again a mom, and
often we're like, where did allmy money go?
(08:09):
And just like the clothes, thethe like I felt like my child
like grew overnight one day, andI was just like, You can't fit
your pants anymore.
So we had to go get all thesepants, right?
So like all these things are Iwould also say, like, there's
just so many like half-eatenthings of food in my house
because he likes he tried to eatthis and then didn't like it
(08:32):
anymore, right?
And this like we had to keepexperimenting, um, and then
healthcare costs, and so allthese things are like deeply
important to me being able tolike be able to provide and like
be a good parent, and like allof that is tied to my economic
like well-being, right?
(08:53):
And if we are really wanting tohave a full conversation about
people being able to live ajoyous life, to live thriving
lives, right?
It is one that people are ableto have the economic security
and well-being.
And then with when you talkabout abortion access, we also
(09:14):
know right now that likedepending on your zip code, that
depends your access, right?
And if you are having to travel,if you are having to like take
off time from work, if you arehaving to schedule child care,
all those pieces in order to getyour abortion, right?
(09:34):
That also has an economic impacton your life as well.
And a lot of times we likepeople think that like, oh well,
abortion access, it's easy.
It's actually really hard.
SPEAKER_00 (09:45):
And the had you then, right?
Like jobs did not change that,it made it so much worse.
SPEAKER_01 (09:51):
So much.
And like if you live somewherein the southeast or like kind of
the middle of the country,they're just thousands of miles
that you have to travel in orderto get access.
SPEAKER_00 (10:03):
Yeah, I mean, I feel like we've talked about this on
the podcast when we've talkedabout that complicated web that
people need to navigate to getaccess, right?
Because it's not just let me godown to the clinic that's close.
It's the I might need to takeoff work.
I might I need to figure out howI'm gonna pay for it, my
insurance doesn't cover it, Idon't have insurance, like all
(10:26):
of the things.
Then it's oh, there's a waitingperiod.
So now I need to make that triptwice, and that's two days off
of work, or two days of childcare and travel, and it may not
be close, or it's a hotel room,and now it's like I have to fly
somewhere to get access.
(10:47):
Like all of these thingsinteract together to again, like
you said, prevent you from beingable to make the decision.
Because how can you make adecision if you can't afford to
make the decision?
Like that that's forcing yourhand.
SPEAKER_01 (11:01):
And I think that is that is the orange story of all.
So the Affordable Care Actpassed way back in, I think it
was 2011.
I think in 2010, 2011, somethinglike that.
Yes, 2010, 2011, where we livedin a very different world.
Um, yeah.
But the compromise was abortion,right?
(11:22):
They kept the Hyde Amendment,and our founders got together
and said, like, no more, we arenot compromising on women's
backs, low-income folks' backs,because what the hyde amendment
does is it prevents folks whowork for the federal government,
who both are contractors of thefederal government, if you are
(11:46):
Medicaid or Medicare, if you'rein the Indian Health Service,
you have to come out of pocketfor abortion access, right?
Which means that your ability toget affordable, available, and
accessible abortions really islimited when you have to figure
out how to come out of pocket,which is something different
(12:07):
than any other piece ofhealthcare that we have, right?
And so this is why we likestarted, um, and also why that
the piece around economicjustice and abortion access was
baked into the founding of ourorganization, because we know
those things cannot be takenapart, no matter how many times
(12:31):
people have tried, whether inCongress or in seats, and that
we need to relink those piecestogether and make sure when
we're talking about pregnancy,when we're talking about
abortion access and thecontinuum of care, that we are
also talking about economics.
SPEAKER_00 (12:46):
Yeah, and that leads perfectly into the next area I
was gonna talk about, which ishealthcare access.
Because, you know, you talkedabout the abortion part and
that, you know, the HydeAmendment and the way the
Affordable Care Act was donefurther limited people's ability
to access abortion as healthcare, but it also has impacts on
broader healthcare access.
(13:07):
Do you want to talk about thatpart a little bit?
SPEAKER_01 (13:09):
Yeah, so God, where do we get?
SPEAKER_00 (13:12):
I could talk about it.
I know, right?
Let me ask you real small, easyquestions.
SPEAKER_01 (13:17):
So, I mean, there's a couple of pieces.
So if we take even like what'sbeen happening today with the
government shutdown, thegovernment shutdown was on the
ACA, but the AC Day subsidies,and one of the conversations
that were quietly happeningbehind the scenes was one about
abortion access.
And it was said that um whatthey were trying to do is try to
(13:42):
again try to do a backdoorabortion ban where right now
there are segmented pieces inwhich people pay for their
abortion access for statesthat'll have abortion access,
right, and provide it, andthey're trying to ban that even,
right?
And we which is just such acrazy piece because we know that
(14:03):
abortion is healthcare and thatpregnancy is health care, and
that this conversation of againtrying to pull it out into this
other world of like, oh, wedon't need to think about
abortion as a healthcare issue,is like when we think about
pregnancy as a healthcare issue,and this is just one of the many
(14:26):
ways in which there's an endingto a pregnancy, which they all
end somehow.
And so it's either abortion,miscarriage, or um like birth.
And so the conversation whereour job is to bring the abortion
access back into healthcare andalso not make it a leverage
point of like essentially folkswho are trying to dismantle and
(14:51):
disassembled like people'sbodies to make it seem like your
uterus can be in a differentplace than the rest of your
body.
SPEAKER_00 (14:59):
I think the other thing I've been thinking about
too is how certain conversationsare presented as like
disconnected from the abortionconversation, but are totally
part of it.
So with states having a numberof states having really harsh
abortion restrictions, you'veseen hospitals having like
closing their labor and deliveryunits.
(15:21):
So like that is blocking accessfor not just abortion care, but
blocking access for labor anddelivery, for maternal health
care, and and all of that ishappening at the same time.
We need to have thatconversation around the maternal
mortality rate in this country,and it is high, it is
particularly high for blackwomen.
(15:42):
Like we these all need to be inconversation together because it
is all part of that sameconversation.
SPEAKER_01 (15:49):
It is.
And I think there's a couple ofpieces there too, right?
So, one in thinking aboutMedicaid, we also understand,
like with a big ugly bill thatgot passed, that right after the
midterm elections, we'reactually gonna see the impact of
what that is, right?
So they timed it out, and whatthat means is the rural
(16:09):
hospitals um and other likespaces are going to be closed,
and that's closed for everybody.
And then the second point thatyou're saying um around the
maternal mortality rates, yes,we've seen absolutely in places
where there have been abortionbans, there has been an increase
in both maternal mortality ratesand infant mortality rates.
(16:30):
Because we know when people donot get the care that they need,
it impacts all aspects of yourlife.
And we, I think it's just againto like under, it can't be
understated that abortion careis a part of this healthcare
piece, and when people arehaving to go without, when
(16:52):
people are having to travel,when people are not getting the
care that they need, so they arecarrying pregnancies that are
risky and like not unwanted inall these other pieces, that
that puts everybody, likepeople's families at risk.
We saw like a horrible exampleof that in Georgia, where we had
(17:13):
this black woman who had passedaway and they had kept her alive
as an incubator for baby.
Her family had to figure out howto take care of against their
will, right?
SPEAKER_00 (17:26):
Um, because of a Yeah, I think that's the like
clear part, right?
Like they didn't they weren'tthe ones who made the decision
to keep her alive.
SPEAKER_01 (17:35):
No, not at all.
And this is again, like, is thisthe most egregious way in which
that we saw somebody's autonomyjust could violate it?
And these are just the storiesthat we've heard.
SPEAKER_00 (17:49):
That is the part that always worries me, right?
Is like the stories we hear areso heartbreaking and I I hope
are helping m change people'shearts and minds.
But I just think of the peoplewhose stories you don't hear,
the people who also aren'tgetting the information they
need, whether that be findingout that there's an abortion
(18:09):
fund that could help them payfor an abortion, or finding out
that there are ways that theycould access pills online, like
the people that don't haveaccess to the information that
could help them and are trulyforced into making a decision
that they wouldn't have madeotherwise.
SPEAKER_01 (18:26):
Right.
And so that I think that's againthe heart of the work, and
that's also the heart of likereproductive justice on the
tenant of like being able todecide if you want to have
family or not, if you want tohave family, and the the right
to be able to have and raiseyour family with dignity in a
(18:46):
sustainable environment.
SPEAKER_00 (18:47):
The other thing I've been thinking is we're talking
is like we're we were talkingabout things that are on like
the front end, right?
We're talking about the theeconomics in making the decision
whether or not to have the kid,or if they can pay for that
abortion, or the impacts ontheir health.
I I feel like we're just likegoing through the turnaway study
(19:09):
on impacts of having not havingthe wanted abortion, right?
We saw that they the turnawaystudy showed that there was a
higher maternal mortality rateassociated with not having the
wanted abortion.
They saw that there wasincreased economic insecurity
for longer.
Another big one that is likenearer and dear to my heart as a
(19:31):
survivor of intermittent partnerviolence is the increased uh
risk of staying with the partnerwhen you are in a violent
relationship.
So it feels like a good time tomaybe turn and talk about
women's safety as another partof this uh abortion
conversation.
SPEAKER_01 (19:49):
Yeah, you're exactly right.
And thank you for sharing thepiece around like one, there's
like all these factors that gointo abortion access.
Part of those factors is one,there's the safety of like your
actual health and safety.
And what I mean by actual healthand safety in the sense of we
(20:11):
know that like with the Idahoand the Intala law, that people
are having to get helicopteredout because they showed up to
hospitals and they were deniedservice.
And then we also know thatthere's your actual health and
safety when it comes to like theenvironment that you're in, and
what that means for both IPV andalso your economic security and
(20:34):
the different again, thedifferent ways in which people
are trying to figure out how tosurvive in the world.
And so abortion access is againincredibly linked to all these
intersectional issues, andagain, when we see a space that
or a state that decreased accessto abortion, all the pieces
(20:57):
around whether it's infinitematernal mortality, whether it's
morbidity, and morbidity, andwhat I mean by that is where
people did not die but get very,very sick, um lose an organ, all
these other pieces are are notbeing able to have a child again
go up.
(21:18):
And so, yeah, your safety isagain completely linked to
abortion access.
SPEAKER_00 (21:23):
This is the part I really love about uh
reproductive justice is youbrings all of these
conversations into one placebecause so often they are
happening in silos, right?
Like maybe somebody will talkabout abortion and economic
security, or somebody will talkabout the other healthcare
stuff, or somebody may talkabout intimate partner violence,
but it's not often you hear thelike, let's talk about all of it
(21:44):
at the same time because it'sall happening.
People are having multifacetedlives where these are impacts
that they are experiencing allof them at once.
SPEAKER_01 (21:53):
Yeah, as a person who grew up in the reproductive
justice phase, it was alwaystalked about like that.
And it's talked about thatbecause that's the way people
live their lives.
At some point in people's lives,they like might want to have a
child, and some people, at somepoint in people's lives, they
don't.
At some point in people's lives,their well, in all people, all
(22:17):
times in people's lives, theireconomic security and well-being
is a part of how they decidefamily.
One of the things that I used towork on was environmental issues
because we know that impactsyour ability of whether you want
to have family or not.
And your pregnancy.
I remember one study that waslooking at pollution and how
(22:39):
that had an impact on infantmortality and low infant birth
weights, right?
And so all these things areconnected, and I just give a lot
of thanks to the black womenthat started reproductive
justice, and they started itafter coming from the Fourth
World Conference on at Cairowith this idea of we need to
(23:01):
figure out how to have aframework that blends the
reproductive rights and thehuman rights framework that
folks were learning about andliving in the everyday
experiences.
I remind folks while a lot offolks were fighting for the
right not to have children, formany women of color, they were
fighting for the right to havechildren.
(23:23):
So, this is why we think aboutthis and this continuum of care,
and why we think about aframework that has all of these
pieces, because that isabsolutely how people live their
lives.
SPEAKER_00 (23:34):
So, one of the things we always are have to
deal with is funding and wherethe funding is coming from and
what donors are interested infunding.
What are some of the thingsyou're running into right now?
SPEAKER_01 (23:46):
Yeah, so unfortunately, I think across
the social justice space, andit's been pretty much a freeze
in funding.
Since the inauguration of Trump,everybody is struggling to like
we have the resources uh that weneed in order to like fight the
(24:06):
good fight.
And the time where to fight thegood fight, it's absolutely like
imperative to the like where ournation is going.
I know that we've experiencedfolks who really were just like,
Oh well, Bush is not the hotbutton issue anymore, so we
don't need to think about this,which like breaks my heart
(24:27):
because of how we know that thisis still an issue that every day
people are having to figure out,right?
Like the Dobbs decision didn'tgo away.
Places where they have abortionbans are still there, so like
the idea that like because it'snot in the news, because it's
getting, for lack of a betterway, drowned out by a million
(24:51):
different things, that like thisthing is not still important,
again, breaks my heart.
But also, it just like really itpushes me to also be like, Can
we walk and true government atthe same time?
Right?
Like, we need to be able totackle the democracy, the
fascism, the economic security,and abortion and pregnancy and
(25:15):
healthcare all at the same time,because that is what it's called
for us to do.
SPEAKER_00 (25:20):
Yeah.
Uh I I feel like this is one ofthose I I try to talk about on
the podcast, particularly aroundthe so much of the increase in
funding people saw was like therage donating, right?
Roe felt people were reallyangry, so they gave money, or
they'll see a new headline andit would donate.
(25:41):
And now that there are so manyattacks on so many different
things, I feel like you'vedefinitely seen that come down.
And it makes it really hard fororganizations to get the money,
and the need has not decreased,right?
So, and and we never had enoughto meet the need of all of the
people who needed help.
So it makes it extraheartbreaking to then have to
(26:04):
and the need has gone up in theway that now we're talking about
having to fly people out ofstate to get access or put them
up in hotel rooms.
So the price has gone up, butthe money has not, and it makes
it really hard.
SPEAKER_01 (26:19):
Right.
People are having to travel.
Um, and then just the not to belike on the edge of like running
an organization, but like yeah,yeah, that also has like the
cost of like running orgs,right?
Like all of us have to startthinking about security now
because folks are gettingattacked.
We had a rally, we usually dorallies of in front of the um
(26:41):
SCOTUS after importantdecisions, and like our folks
got assaulted, right?
And like these are things thatare happening that like at the
same time we are losing funding,that abortion is in like in dire
circumstances, and organizationsare having to like lift more as
(27:01):
we figure out how to navigatethis world that we're in, where
like I talked to my ourorganizational lawyer way more
than uh I feel I had to in thelast 10 years, because we have
to make sure that like, or noteven make sure, we have to guard
ourselves in ways that we hadn'tbefore.
(27:22):
We saw with that EO thepresident signed that made it
essentially against America, forlack of a better way of saying
it, that if you work on race orgender or class issues or the
combination of those pieces,that that is anti-America.
And that is where we sit in thework, right, of looking at race,
(27:47):
class, and gender.
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (27:48):
And I would have just added to that mix the
groups that are serviceproviders who then have also
lost government funding or hadtheir funding frozen.
So it not to be a downer, y'all.
I know often the podcast can bedown or since we talk about what
is happening, but things arepretty bleak and times are hard
(28:10):
for uh a lot of theorganizations in the space.
It is.
But and not equally, notequally.
SPEAKER_01 (28:18):
And yeah, I thank you for bringing up the service
providers because yeah, our ourservice providers are also
filling it very much for theirpersonal safety, and then the
organizations that they work atum are filling it as well.
But I would say in all of this,there still is a light at the
end of the tunnel for me.
SPEAKER_00 (28:36):
Yes.
I I'm sure you get asked thisquestion a lot because I know I
get asked it, but like the howdo you keep doing this?
And my answer is because I knowwe're gonna win.
Like it maybe not be soon, butlike we're gonna win.
SPEAKER_01 (28:50):
Right, we're on the right side of history.
Yeah, but I think what I alsodidn't put in my intro is that I
am a big sci-fi nerd.
Um, and that like like guides mylife.
I look at a lot of Star Trek, itsets a world of like this is
where we're trying to go.
But I think about that and how Iapply my work today.
(29:11):
And although Roe did was the lawof the land and did a lot for
access, we know it was thefloor, not the ceiling.
And that there is an opportunityfor us in the kind of
destruction to have a Phoenixmoment of like, let's start
(29:32):
building the type of access thatwe need.
Let's start organizing aroundthe ways in which abortion is a
healthcare issue, and build inthe pieces around race and
gender that we hadn't donebefore into what is new.
We are in a space of bothincredible destruction, but also
(29:59):
an opportunity gives us anopportunity to start building
the world that we've never seen.
And what gives me a lot of hopeis that I have the opportunity
to do as much as I can for aslong as I can, so I can pass
that baton to the next crew offolks that can take it to the
(30:20):
world that we have theliberation, right?
And that is that's the mission,right?
And I feel like I get to wakeup.
Every day and fight with folkswho are down, down as hell to do
this type of work.
And so, like, yes, times areincredibly hard.
(30:42):
But I also note that I come froma legacy of folks that times
have been really hard and theypersevered.
And so I'm taking that type ofenergy of like, what is new?
Like, we have a harder job to dobecause we're trying to go
forward, not backwards.
But there's just such anopportunity to like build the
thing that we need and toorganize people.
(31:04):
And people are hungry to beorganized, hungry to be
organized.
And so, like, let's lean intothe moment.
And then, yeah, that gives me alot of hope.
SPEAKER_00 (31:13):
There is so much, like you said, it it times are
hard and it there are days,right?
You have days where you're like,oh, like I'm ready to quit and
like go.
I always joke about like I'mgonna open my bakery bookstore
and like that, that's it.
I'm just like gonna walk away.
But it's like a day, and oftennot a full day.
(31:33):
Like, I you have a rough day.
But then I look at all of theamazing people that I am lucky
enough to work with that are sopassionate and bring their full
hearts and their selves to thiswork to build this better world.
And then look at the work thatis being done on the ground by
the reproductive justiceadvocates, by the abortion
funds, by the clinics, everyonewho's doing the work to ensure
(31:55):
that they are able to help asmany people as they can right
now while also building for thatbetter world where we have a
much better system built toensure that people can access
the care they need easily,affordably.
Like in my vision, like accessmeans all the things, right?
(32:15):
Like you are just going down thestreet, like it's easy to get
the care, it's embedded, it'sfree, like all the things.
And and we're all in this fighttogether, and that makes it
easier to keep going.
And yeah, you may have that daywhere you're like, I can't do
it.
But like mostly I can see justthe fight we're in, and I am
(32:38):
happy to be in that fight withso many wonderful people like
you.
SPEAKER_01 (32:41):
Thank you.
And I would also say the bakeryis needed.
So if you like want to do that,like we have to also be
incredibly creative on how we'reorganizing.
So one of the things that we didwas start a book club.
It was supposed to be a romancebook club, and it was supposed
to be like a place for people togather because community is
(33:02):
really, really important.
SPEAKER_00 (33:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (33:03):
They decided to go to nonfiction real hard.
I was like, oh, we're notreading our soft stuff.
Um, but it's a space ofcommunity and also a space where
we can like like ask folks tohelp us like volunteer when we
need to like turn on and likehave to like you know, call
people or like send texts andthings like that, right?
(33:25):
And so like finding community inall the ways that we make and
have community is likeincredibly important.
So, like, I don't want folks tothink that like if you're a
flowerist that like and your jobis like and you do beautiful
flowering, that like somehow youare not part of the movement
(33:46):
work.
No, like there are so manythings, like weenie flowers,
right?
I had a friend told me that likeshe was getting some stuff
printed around a workshop shewas doing around like fascism,
and the manager saw like what itwas while I was printing and
gave her 50% off.
(34:06):
And was this like a week and aknot?
There are just so many ways inwhich like everybody can be in
this fight.
SPEAKER_00 (34:13):
You could have a tip bucket that goes to abortion
funds, or like you can do somany different things, even just
a place that's for literature orthings that people when people
come in your shop, they canlearn more about the things.
SPEAKER_01 (34:25):
Yeah, and like that's what I'm like really
encouraging and inviting folkspeople to do is like to get
really inventive and creative inways that we can fight the
movement or like to join themovement, excuse me, because
there's so many creative ways,and that's what we need.
SPEAKER_00 (34:40):
And again, things that bring joy.
We always love everything thatbrings joy.
Okay, so I always love to endnot just talking about what's
wrong and all the things thatare happening, but with what can
the audience do?
How can the audience getinvolved in this moment?
SPEAKER_01 (34:57):
Yeah, so I think of it as my three T's time,
treasure, and talent.
And time, I would say, like justwhat we were talking about,
volunteer, join community, havehouse parties.
We have a reproductive justicetoolkit on our website that you
can download if you're like, Ineed to figure out how to do a
(35:18):
house party, and has everythingfrom like political education
and places to read to like drinkideas.
Um, because like we like to bethe joy and the fun into the
pieces, but yes, we like one ofthe biggest things that we can
do is build community, and thatdoesn't mean like build
(35:38):
community in DC, if that's notwhere you're at, that's building
it in the streets andneighborhoods of where your
community is because you are thebest messenger for your friends
and your family, and part of thereason why we're in this like
crazy alternate world of anightmare is because we've lost
community, and so buildingcommunity, having and hosting
(36:01):
space, meeting your neighbors isincredibly important in the
fight, right?
And then the second piece istalent.
So, like as people are trying tofigure out how to like make
things work, funding's gettingharder.
Like, people's talents areincredibly important.
(36:22):
I have a couple of friends whowork in kind of the Hollywood
industry with producing and likewriting scripts, and they have
donated their time, and it'sbeen immensely great.
I am a tutorist major, I am nota person who can write comedy or
like other types of scripts, butwe need that, and that is like
(36:45):
everybody has something like atalent that they can offer to
the space that um if you link upwith an organization that will
be incredibly helpful to helpthem build and build community
to build activists, even if it'sjust like make stuff look nice
to make people feel a littlejoy.
That is all super important, andthen of course, I would say the
(37:07):
treasures to donate, and thereare many organizations across
this country, a lot ofreproductive justice
organizations that are doing,for lack of a way to say it,
God's work with like shoestringbudgets, and those dollars,
particularly unrestricteddollars, which are the ones that
(37:29):
folks don't need, can go so farin helping folks being able to
continue the work, whether thatis providing for abortion
access, whether that isproviding food at a like after
this meeting, whether that ispaying for supplies, all those
things are just so deeplyimportant.
So there's just a ton of workthat folks can be doing.
(37:51):
And if you need to know more,you could always say this up the
all above all.
Because yeah, we we loveorganizing with folks, but this
is again, this is not aspectator sport.
We need everybody in the game.
SPEAKER_00 (38:03):
Uh Nor Base, that was perfect.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
I really loved all of your takeaction, and it was so wonderful
to talk to you.
Thank you for having me.
Okay, y'all.
Like I said, I hope you enjoyedmy conversation with Norbese.
I had a really great timegetting to talk to her, and I
hope you all have a wonderfulThanksgiving weekend, however
you are spending it, um, andthat you get some time with
(38:26):
friends or family and a chanceto recharge, because now it is
all of a sudden like the end ofthe year, and it's all these
things to get done.
So I hope everyone has awonderful Thanksgiving, and I
will see y'all next week.
If you have any questions,comments, or topics you would
like us to cover, always feelfree to shoot me an email.
You can reach me at Jenny,J-E-N-N-I-E at Reprospyth.com,
(38:50):
or you can find us on socialmedia.
We're at Reprose FightBack onFacebook and Twitter, or Reprose
F on Instagram.
If you love our podcast and wantto make sure more people find
it, take the time to rate andreview us on your favorite
podcast platform.
Or if you want to make sure tosupport the podcast, you can
also donate on our website atreprospiteback.com.
(39:11):
Thanks all.
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