September 30, 2025 • 31 mins
Whether it’s communicated in polls or at the ballot box, access to abortion is extremely popular in the United States. Yet, our rights are being blatantly stripped away—and abortion care won’t be the only sexual and reproductive right to face attacks. Fatima Goss Graves, President and CEO of the National Women’s Law Center, sits down to talk with us about the status of abortion access in the U.S., what to anticipate, and what brings her hope.
We're experiencing a coordinated strategy by anti-abortion extremists to dismantle reproductive freedom nationwide. And they won’t stop just at abortion—contraception and gender-affirming care will face the exact same attacks, likely using the same strategies. The fight for emergency abortion care continues, too. Post-Dobbs and Trump’s “Big Beautiful Bill,” hospitals, especially in rural areas, will continue to close their obstetrics wards. Abortion care will be continuously pushed farther out of reach.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jennie (00:03):
Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, a podcast on
all things related to sexual andreproductive health rights and
justice.
Hey rePROs, how's everybodydoing?
I'm your host, Jennie Wetter,and my pronouns are she, her.
So, y'all, let's kick off withsome housekeeping.
One I just want to mentionagain, our merch store.
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(00:26):
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I feel like there's some otherthings I'm forgetting.
They're very cute.
We have shared pictures onsocial.
There's a super cute picture ofCinder giving her seal of
approval to all of the merchthat I ordered for myself.
(00:48):
I have been take carrying mybag around.
I have worn my t-shirts that Igot already.
I love all of them.
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(01:31):
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It gets lots of comments, butthat one is only available for
(01:53):
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Okay.
I think that's enoughhousekeeping.
I am really enjoying the startof fall.
It's been so nice here, minusmy allergies.
You'll hear them coming throughin some of the episodes.
They're not too bad today.
(02:15):
Um, I get allergy induced toasthma, so I get this like
wheezy cough that is unpleasant,but I feel good. But I do have
a little bit of a cough rightnow, but it's not too bad.
But some of the others Irecorded recently that are
coming out next week, you'llit's a little worse.
So sorry, y'all.
Let's see what else is goingon.
I feel like I am ready to bakesomething apple-y.
(02:38):
I don't know what yet.
I'm gonna make something thisweekend.
Maybe an apple crisp or I don'tknow, maybe some something kind
of bread with apples in it.
I don't know.
I have a bunch of apples that Ineed to do something with.
So, maybe I'll do some bakingthis weekend.
I feel like I haven't beenbaking as much for a while.
I don't know.
(02:58):
I feel like this year has notbeen the year of baking for me.
It has really fallen off onwhat I want to do.
And I miss it.
I miss doing the baking.
But as soon as it comes toSunday and when I would normally
do my Sunday bakes, like I justhaven't had the will to do it.
But I need to change thatbecause I have really enjoyed
(03:18):
having fresh baked bread andstuff uh when I was doing it.
So, you know, maybe I'll turnaround and do some more baking
soon.
I think I'm gonna stop there.
I don't feel like I have a lotof other things to share at the
moment.
I'll have a bunch coming upsoon, but not right now.
But I am so excited for today'sepisode, y'all.
(03:39):
I have on Fatima Goss Graveswith the National Women's Law
Center.
She is somebody who I lovelistening to speak.
She always has so much to sayaround our issues.
And I always find her just soengaging and insightful and
thoughtful.
And I'm just beyond excited tohave her on the podcast.
Honestly, y'all, when I foundout she was gonna do it, it made
(04:01):
my day.
So I'm just so, so, so excited.
So, with that, let's go to myinterview with Fatima.
Hi, Fatima.
Thank you so much for beinghere today.
Oh, I'm so glad to join you.
Before we get started, wouldyou like to take a second and
introduce yourself?
Fatima (04:17):
Sure.
I'm Fatima Goss Graves.
I'm President and CEO at theNational Women's Law Center.
Jennie (04:23):
What I'm so excited to have you here.
I love y'all's work and I lovehearing you speak.
So, I'm just so grateful tohave you on the podcast today.
And so, I thought we'd talkabout abortion access and what
we're kind of facing right nowbecause it feels it still feels
like a bit of a mess, and thereare many different ways we could
take it, but maybe I'll juststart with like a broad, like,
(04:45):
what are what are you looking atright now?
Fatima (04:47):
Yeah, well, I'm- "mess" and "messy" are are two probably
accurate words to describe whatwe're dealing with right now.
And it kind of is this strangething where we are literally in
the midst of a long-planned,long-time coordinated strategy
by anti-abortion extremists todismantle reproductive freedom
(05:12):
nationwide.
They aren't stopping atabortion and they aren't
stopping in certain states.
They have a nationwide goalaround this.
But they also know that accessto abortion is super popular in
this country.
Freedom to decide around yourfamilies, your bodies, they
(05:34):
really shouldn't be up todebate.
And that's what people havesaid again and again, whenever
they've had a chance, really, todirectly express their views on
abortion, whether it's in pollsor at the ballot box.
So, unlike a lot of the thingsthat we're seeing happening
right now, um, where you mighthave the president loud and
(05:56):
proud and strongly usingrhetoric to rile up his base and
to ensure that people areafraid.
On abortion, they're trying tofly as quiet as they can under
the radar while also taking awayour freedoms.
And so it's really crucial thatpeople who are covering this
(06:18):
time, as messy and chaotic as itis, keep a really sharp eye on
the attacks, whether they aresubtle or quiet or not, so that
the public actually knows whatis happening, and so that
lawmakers and um people who havean opportunity to do something
about it and who can be heldaccountable for stripping away
(06:42):
our rights um understand thatthat's what's at stake.
Jennie (06:45):
I really love that you talked about that it's not gonna
stop at abortion, and I thinkwe had a really clear signal of
that recently.
The administration has beentalking about burning $10
million worth of contraceptionthat was supposed to go to women
overseas.
And in their statement, theytalked about it as abortifacient
birth control when it was IUDs,implants, birth control pills,
(07:09):
and injectables.
Fatima (07:10):
Yeah, I mean, we can see they're not really trying to
hide that much, I guess, howthey how they plan to go after
contraception.
And they're gonna do itbasically how they went after
abortion.
But first they have to claimthat contraception is abortion,
right?
And so, that's both notscientifically true, but they
(07:31):
believe that if they call itabortion or use terms like
"abortion aid," which people arelike, what is that?
That that will lead people tonot like contraception.
I mean, the statistics aroundthis are pretty clear.
Like, 90% of women in thiscountry have used contraception
at some point.
(07:51):
And so, when you start goingafter contraception, restricting
access to it, making it harderto get, or doing something as
wild as burning it, I mean, thefirst thing you gotta ask is:
where is DOGE?
Why are you how how is itefficient to burn contraception
(08:12):
that was already acquired andready to be delivered to ensure
that people have access to theirhealth care?
But what they're looking to doreally is make it so that people
are confused. They mightsupport contraception, but maybe
there's something that theyneed to know about this.
(08:35):
And so again, our task in thistime is to ensure that people
are aware that it's happening,that it doesn't fly on the
radar, and that people are notconfused about the
science, which leads me to onemore point that I think is
really important to make.
It's how they plan to go aftercontraception, following the
(08:57):
playbook that they use to goafter abortion.
You know, access to abortion isabortion care is safe.
We know that.
But the way that they attackedit was by just declaring it to
be "unsafe." Medication abortionis safe.
We know that, that it is safe,that it is effective, that it
(09:21):
has been used for decades.
Its safety rating is betterthan most things that people
find in their medicine cabinets.
And now what they're trying todo to go after it is just sort
of say, we we've declared itunsafe.
Not because there is scientificevidence of it, but because
(09:42):
they're trying to confuse andput forward a playbook that
allows people to be less surethan they are about their
support.
That same effort is going to beused to contraception.
And we cannot allow it.
We cannot allow the chaos, wecannot allow the undermining of
(10:04):
science, and we cannot allow thetotal disregarding of our
fundamental freedoms to lead topeople not getting the critical
care that they need.
Jennie (10:14):
Yeah, it's amazing how you talk about seeing the
abortion playbook being playedout with contraception because
you're also seeing it beingplayed out around
gender-affirming care.
That's right.
You're seeing the exact samething being done in that space
and a lot of talking heads notlearning the lessons of the
abortion rights movement thatthey need to have learned to
(10:35):
protect gender-affirming care.
Fatima (10:37):
That's absolutely right.
We're both seeing the playbookthat they use to undermine
abortion care play out ingender-affirming care, but now
you've had this accelerationfrom the administration and they
have they have sort of ralliedaround the idea that the polling
around trans folks in thistime, after you know, a decade
(11:00):
of a giant misinformationcampaign, is is at levels that
are really low.
The public is really confused,and they are more susceptible to
the hateful and uninformedrhetoric.
So, that's when they arestriking, right?
We saw that happen aroundabortion for many, many years,
(11:21):
where they use misinformation tomake people confused about the
care that people needed.
And it really took thatfundamental freedom of abortion
access going away, and the manycourageous people who were
willing to tell their storiesand share their experience of
(11:42):
what their life was like whenthey couldn't access the care
they need to ensure that thepublic paid attention correctly.
And in this time where so manypeople are terrified that they
won't be able to get the carethat they need.
When I've talked personally toso many parents who are worried
(12:03):
about their own kids and notbeing able to continue their
care.
I've talked to adults who areworried about their ability to
get their care going forward.
All of that isn't more enabledin the context of a cultural and
state-led misinformation anddemonization campaign, right?
(12:27):
The more they make us feel likepeople who need access to this
care are othered and not worthyor not good people, the more
they're able to do things tomake it hard to get that care.
We saw that happen in abortion.
We're seeing it in real timehappening around
gender-affirming care, and wewill see it happen around
(12:50):
contraception.
Jennie (12:51):
You know, you talk about stories, and we've seen how
powerful stories are in changingpeople's minds.
And one of those areas that hasreally shown post-Dobbs is
around stories around emergencyaccess to abortion.
What is the state of trying toaccess abortion in an emergency
situation right now?
There was so much going onaround it, and it's begun, it
(13:14):
feels like quiet for a littlebit, but things are still
happening, right?
Fatima (13:18):
Yeah, for sure.
And again, that quiet is not anaccident, right?
And then I've been so gratefulto the many storytellers who
have given us the gift of theirstories, who have shared their
experiences so that peopleunderstand that this is
happening.
But if I could take a stepback, what ended up happening
was less than two months aftertaking office, the Trump
(13:41):
administration's Department ofJustice dismissed a case that
was challenging and full andtotal abortion ban in the state
of Idaho.
It's one of the strictest inthe country.
The state of Idaho prohibitsabortion even when the health of
the person who is pregnant isat risk.
(14:04):
And in doing so, the Trumpadministration sided with the
many, many extremists who wantto allow doctors to continue to
turn away patients who needemergency care.
We've had these clients aswell.
It is devastating.
People going from hospital tohospital or state to state when
(14:27):
they're in a state of emergency.
It's a scary thing and itshould not ever happen.
The Supreme Court consideredthe case and it ultimately sent
it back to the lower courtswithout a decision.
And so now we're in thissituation where the Trump
administration just dismissedit.
And so the question that peoplehave is what is going to happen
(14:49):
to this fight?
Fortunately, a hospital came inand the case will be able to
continue, but not because theTrump administration is
continuing to say that Idaho hasa law that is not allowed
because it doesn't provide forthe health of the person who's
(15:11):
actually pregnant.
The Trump administration alsorescinded guidance that
reaffirmed that health careproviders had to provide
emergency abortion care topatients who are in medical
crisis.
And when that guidance wasrescinded, you know, many of us
(15:32):
objected, we readied litigation,and then the Trump
administration put out newguidance that sent a really
terrible signal and it hascreated a lot of confusion in
hospital rooms because underthis guidance, states can block
hospitals from providing healthand life-saving care to pregnant
(15:57):
people when they're in crisis.
And so we're running the riskof having the same thing where
patients are being denied accessto care.
We're running the risk ofhaving the same thing of
patients being able to having togo from state to state when
they're in a state of emergency.
You know, if you go back to thestories you've heard, right,
(16:19):
this the people who have sharedtheir really harrowing
experience of being in medicalcrisis, sometimes believing they
were going to die, some beingin sepsis or other conditions
and not getting able to get, notbeing able to get the care they
need, you realize that thisquestion of emergency abortion
(16:41):
care, it is about our health, itis about our future fertility,
and it is actually about ourlives.
And so this administration, theTrump administration, has
pretty squarely aligned itselfwith anti-abortion politicians
who are seeking to just do anationwide ban on all abortion
(17:02):
care, including abortion care.
That is emergency abortion care.
Jennie (17:07):
You know, and I think the big thing for me is like
none of this is happening in avacuum, right?
We have a maternal mortalitycrisis in this country,
particularly for Black women.
We are also seeing post-ops uhhospitals closing their OB
wards.
Like this is pushing healthcare further out of reach for
pregnant people, and this isonly going to compound this
(17:30):
healthcare crisis we currentlyhave.
Fatima (17:32):
Yeah, it's definitely not happening in a vacuum at
all.
It is layered on top of a realcrisis in maternal health that
is worse for Black andIndigenous women, right?
The rates there are especiallyshocking.
But really, pregnancy in thiscountry is way too uneven.
(17:55):
And already we were having achallenge, especially in rural
areas, of having enough accessto medical care and maternity
wards shutting down.
And then over the summer, whatyou saw was President Trump's
"Big, Beautiful Bill." We callit the Big Ugly Bill, because
(18:17):
one of the things that it doesis gut Medicaid.
And we know that hospitalsaround the country will close.
Almost half of all births inthis country are paid for by
Medicaid.
And so that is going to be achallenge not only to the
individuals who are forced offof Medicaid, and you know, there
(18:40):
will be millions that will losetheir health coverage as a
result of this bill.
But the health ecosystem alsoisn't in a vacuum, and there
will be hospitals that close,especially in rural parts of the
country.
Jennie (18:58):
This is one of those that hits especially close to
home for me.
I grew up in rural Wisconsin.
The hospital I would have goneto uh is a rural hospital, and
it is the only public hospitalin southern Wisconsin.
And so, that is really scary tothink that what this could mean
for that local hospital that isseeing people who don't have
(19:19):
insurance and what it would meanfor their future access to
care.
Fatima (19:22):
Yeah, I mean, I think the really difficult thing is
that this bill that was shoveddown the American people's
throats over this summer was setup with the hope that people
would either forget about it ornot sure who to be upset about
it as their hospitals close, asthe cost of health care rises,
(19:42):
as they lose their insurance, orthe cost of their own insurance
goes up.
But we have to be clear inreminding people exactly what
happened in that bill, but alsoconnecting it to the other steps
that have been taken thatalready have made access to
health care, especially duringpregnancy, a giant challenge.
(20:04):
None of this is about ensuringthat people can get the best
care that they can.
None of this is about ensuringthat you are supporting
pregnancy or improving birthoutcomes that are well.
All of this is aboutcontrolling our bodies, our
(20:25):
freedoms, our futures.
It does not make sense, and italso does not match what people
in this country say that theywant.
The irony is there's there isnot an area where people
disagree really.
Almost nine out of ten peoplein this country support
protecting access to emergencyabortion care for patients who
(20:47):
need it.
That should be the beginningand the end of the conversation.
Jennie (20:51):
Yeah, and I mean we've touched on this a little bit,
but if this push to, you know,the lawsuit over
EMTALA [Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act],which uh ensures that people
can have access to abortion inemergencies when their health or
life is at risk, you know, thisis still working through the
lawsuit.
Like you said, what are some ofthe impacts we could see if we
(21:11):
get a bad ruling on people'slives?
Because this is what we'retalking about.
Fatima (21:15):
Right.
I mean, we're absolutelytalking about the lives and the
health of people in thiscountry.
Pregnancy shouldn't be a deathsentence.
People shouldn't have to fleetheir states if they're in the
midst of pregnancy, theirpregnancy going wrong.
But the thing is, most peopleat some point in their pregnancy
(21:38):
go to the hospital.
You always hope that everythingis fine.
Sometimes it's just not fine.
And we don't often tell thosestories.
Those are not like the happybirth ending stories, those are
the sadder stories whensomething goes wrong.
But the idea that going to anemergency room to get the care
(21:59):
you need might not result in thecare, might result in
criminalization, might result inyou being turned away, those
are all the future outcomes thatwe can understand will come.
If Idaho's law is allowed to gointo effect, if we see more
(22:21):
states move forward with lawsthat allow doctors to turn away
people who are in need ofemergency abortion care.
You know, I don't want to hearmore stories about people going
from state to state or people,you know, bleeding in parking
lots of hospitals.
(22:42):
That's not what should happenin this country.
There is giant agreement aroundthat and knowledge that
emergency abortion care saveslives and that anyone who is
pregnant and needs medical careshould receive urgent and
critical care if they need it.
Jennie (23:04):
It really does feel at times like it's a race to the
bottom to see like who can passthe most egregious bill and it's
still continuing, right?
Like, we have not seenthe stop-
Fatima (23:14):
Well, I want to see the race to the top.
Jennie (23:15):
Yes.
And I would say that is anotherbright spot in this time.
And at the same time, you dosee some states trying to
outplay each other to see whocould pass the cruelest,
silliest bill that wouldactually make it more possible
that pregnant people lose theirlives.
We're also seeing some stateslooking to protect providers,
(23:38):
passing things like shield lawsso that providers in their
states can focus on providingthe care that they know that
they are trained to provide,that they can follow their
medical oaths rather than youknow, in a corner with their
lawyers to figure out if they goto jail if they provide
emergency abortion care.
(23:58):
That's what's happening rightnow in a lot of parts of the
country.
So, the states that are passingshield laws, the states that
are taking steps to train moremedical providers, the states
that are, you know, recruitingmore medical providers from
hostile state, there, you know,there are things that are
(24:18):
happening right now that aregiving me great hope that we
will continue to fight for notonly our freedoms, but the
health and and well-being ofpeople in this country, and and
that that gives me a lot ofhope.
I love talking about what gives gives you hope in
this moment because it can feelkind of bleak, but there is so
(24:38):
much that is being done that isbringing me hope.
Okay.
So we'll keep that in mind, butI am gonna ask the like, what
is something you're keeping aneye on that you're worried
about?
But then also, what issomething you're keeping an eye
on that is giving you hopethat's coming down the pipe?
Fatima (24:54):
Yeah, I'm deeply worried about a quiet effort to move
forward a national abortion ban.
I don't think that they areplaying around.
I've read Project 2025.
We have summaries of it on theNational Women's Law Center
website, and that's their plan.
And in so many other areas, wehave seen them work to fulfill
(25:18):
Project 2025 as fast aspossible.
So, I believe they're goingafter medication abortion.
I believe they want to revive acenturies-year-old law called
the Comstock Act and make it sothat it's illegal to mail
anything related to abortion.
That's coming.
I see it coming.
(25:38):
I take the threat seriously,and I think people in this
country should not look awayfrom that.
I know that they are quietlydismantling our rights and our
freedoms, and that just means weall have to be a little bit
louder.
I will say the thing that isgiving me a lot of hope right
now continues to be thestorytellers.
(26:01):
Many of them, you know, andsome as a part of the election
in 2024 told their stories forthe first time, were on national
stages, some even cut TV ads.
They haven't gone away.
And that is a thing that willalways inspire me.
They are continuing to forcepeople to hear their stories.
(26:25):
That's true for the many womenwho were turned away from
hospitals and want people toknow what that's like.
That's true from the parentsand the families of women who
lost their lives, women inGeorgia and in Texas who didn't
(26:45):
survive poor medical care, whodidn't survive these outrageous
laws that are not about patienthealth, that are only about
control.
And so, that's giving me hope.
And I think we're gonnacontinue to see them be a force.
Jennie (27:02):
Oh, I love that answer.
I feel like mine is usuallyabortion funds and the clinics,
like all the people on theground who are doing everything
they can to make sure people getthe care they need.
Like that gives me so much hopeto continue the fight every
day.
But I also love the storytellerone.
Like, that's great because itbrings so much attention and
does so much to combat stigma,which we are all just steeped in
(27:25):
everywhere.
Fatima (27:26):
Absolutely.
Here, here always to abortionfunds and abortion providers who
are working locally, they'redoing it under a lot of
pressure, a lot of threat, needthat is far greater than it was
before, resources that are farfewer.
And so, yeah, they're my heroestoo.
Jennie (27:45):
Okay, before we wrap things up, I feel like this
would be a giant missedopportunity if we did not
comment on —yesterday as we arerecording— yesterday's action
by RFK Jr.
and HHS and the White Houselinking autism to the use of
Tylenol during pregnancy.
This feels like something weshould at least mention.
(28:06):
So, Fatima, what are youthinking about this?
Fatima (28:09):
So, here's one of the things about the latest attack
on Tylenol that is a part of abroader effort to attack
pregnancy and not be led by thescience.
It is right now we are hearingfrom women around the country
(28:29):
who are giantly confused, whodon't know what to do.
But what they do know is thatpregnant women are being blamed
for everything, right?
So it's very easy to punish andblame pregnant women as a
strategy.
We deserve so much more.
We deserve to be able to havehealthy pregnancies, to not be
(28:50):
attacked by the state, and tonot have either our medical
providers or everyday peopleconfused by what is coming out
of health and human services.
It is dangerous behavior.
Jennie (29:03):
Okay, so I want to be cognizant of the time and
respectful of yours, but Ialways like to end focusing on
action, not just what's bad, butwhat can the audience do?
How can people get involved inthis moment?
Fatima (29:15):
Well, the thing that I want everyone to take away is
that they need to gather theirpeople and share information.
One of the things that we knowis that people are more hopeful
when they are connected and theyare more likely to take action
if they're encouraged to do soby someone they know.
So you can sign up for theNational Women's Law Center's
(29:38):
information or for another.
I'm wanting you to identifythree other people that you're
gonna ask to be your people.
You're gonna make sure theyknow what's going on, you're
gonna have them take action withyou, and you're gonna see
yourself as a crew that ismoving together in this time.
Jennie (30:01):
I love that.
Fatima, thank you so much forbeing here today.
It was such a pleasure to talkto you.
Thanks for having me.
Okay, y'all.
I hope you enjoyed myconversation with Fatima.
I had such a great time talkingto her about honestly a whole
range of issues.
So thank you, Fatima, for doingthis.
It was so wonderful to talk toyou.
And with that, I will seeeveryone next week.
(30:23):
If you have any questions,comments, or topics you would
like us to cover, always feelfree to shoot me an email.
You can reach me atjennie@reprosfightback.com or
you can find us on social media.
We're at rePROs Fight Back onFacebook and Twitter, or
@ReprosFB on Instagram.
If you love our podcast andwant to make sure more people
(30:44):
find it, take the time to rateand review us on your favorite
podcast platform.
Or if you want to make sure tosupport the podcast, you can
also donate on our website atreprosfightback.com.
Thanks all!
Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, a podcast on
all things related to sexual andreproductive health rights and
justice.
Hey rePROs, how's everybodydoing?
I'm your host, Jennie Wetter,and my pronouns are she, her.
So, y'all, let's kick off withsome housekeeping.
One I just want to mentionagain, our merch store.
We have such cute merchandise,a lot of designs from Liberal
(00:26):
Jane, but also from our in-housedesigner, Tanya.
You can get t-shirts and waterbottles and coffee mugs and a
bag and a tote.
I feel like there's some otherthings I'm forgetting.
They're very cute.
We have shared pictures onsocial.
There's a super cute picture ofCinder giving her seal of
approval to all of the merchthat I ordered for myself.
(00:48):
I have been take carrying mybag around.
I have worn my t-shirts that Igot already.
I love all of them.
I love the designs, and I wouldlove for y'all to check them
out.
So, if you haven't visited ourBonfire store, please make sure
to check it out.
We'll have links in the shownotes.
But yeah, check it out.
And I guess also just if youlove us, also if you could take
(01:09):
a couple minutes to rate andreview us on your favorite
podcast platform, that would beamazing.
It helps people find it, helpspeople find the podcast, and
helps us find our audience.
And I think the last thing I'llsay is something I haven't
mentioned in a while.
If you would like to donate tous, you can also donate to
rePROs Fight Back.
(01:31):
And we still have a giveawaywhere if you give $25 to the
podcast, you get all of ouramazing Repro stickers.
And if you donate $50, you getall of the stickers plus a tote
bag that you cannot get throughthe bonfire store that says
abortion is a human right, not adirty word.
I love that bag.
I carry that one around a lot.
It gets lots of comments, butthat one is only available for
(01:53):
people who have donated.
So make sure to donate and getyour bag for free.
Okay.
I think that's enoughhousekeeping.
I am really enjoying the startof fall.
It's been so nice here, minusmy allergies.
You'll hear them coming throughin some of the episodes.
They're not too bad today.
(02:15):
Um, I get allergy induced toasthma, so I get this like
wheezy cough that is unpleasant,but I feel good. But I do have
a little bit of a cough rightnow, but it's not too bad.
But some of the others Irecorded recently that are
coming out next week, you'llit's a little worse.
So sorry, y'all.
Let's see what else is goingon.
I feel like I am ready to bakesomething apple-y.
(02:38):
I don't know what yet.
I'm gonna make something thisweekend.
Maybe an apple crisp or I don'tknow, maybe some something kind
of bread with apples in it.
I don't know.
I have a bunch of apples that Ineed to do something with.
So, maybe I'll do some bakingthis weekend.
I feel like I haven't beenbaking as much for a while.
I don't know.
(02:58):
I feel like this year has notbeen the year of baking for me.
It has really fallen off onwhat I want to do.
And I miss it.
I miss doing the baking.
But as soon as it comes toSunday and when I would normally
do my Sunday bakes, like I justhaven't had the will to do it.
But I need to change thatbecause I have really enjoyed
(03:18):
having fresh baked bread andstuff uh when I was doing it.
So, you know, maybe I'll turnaround and do some more baking
soon.
I think I'm gonna stop there.
I don't feel like I have a lotof other things to share at the
moment.
I'll have a bunch coming upsoon, but not right now.
But I am so excited for today'sepisode, y'all.
(03:39):
I have on Fatima Goss Graveswith the National Women's Law
Center.
She is somebody who I lovelistening to speak.
She always has so much to sayaround our issues.
And I always find her just soengaging and insightful and
thoughtful.
And I'm just beyond excited tohave her on the podcast.
Honestly, y'all, when I foundout she was gonna do it, it made
(04:01):
my day.
So I'm just so, so, so excited.
So, with that, let's go to myinterview with Fatima.
Hi, Fatima.
Thank you so much for beinghere today.
Oh, I'm so glad to join you.
Before we get started, wouldyou like to take a second and
introduce yourself?
Fatima (04:17):
Sure.
I'm Fatima Goss Graves.
I'm President and CEO at theNational Women's Law Center.
Jennie (04:23):
What I'm so excited to have you here.
I love y'all's work and I lovehearing you speak.
So, I'm just so grateful tohave you on the podcast today.
And so, I thought we'd talkabout abortion access and what
we're kind of facing right nowbecause it feels it still feels
like a bit of a mess, and thereare many different ways we could
take it, but maybe I'll juststart with like a broad, like,
(04:45):
what are what are you looking atright now?
Fatima (04:47):
Yeah, well, I'm- "mess" and "messy" are are two probably
accurate words to describe whatwe're dealing with right now.
And it kind of is this strangething where we are literally in
the midst of a long-planned,long-time coordinated strategy
by anti-abortion extremists todismantle reproductive freedom
(05:12):
nationwide.
They aren't stopping atabortion and they aren't
stopping in certain states.
They have a nationwide goalaround this.
But they also know that accessto abortion is super popular in
this country.
Freedom to decide around yourfamilies, your bodies, they
(05:34):
really shouldn't be up todebate.
And that's what people havesaid again and again, whenever
they've had a chance, really, todirectly express their views on
abortion, whether it's in pollsor at the ballot box.
So, unlike a lot of the thingsthat we're seeing happening
right now, um, where you mighthave the president loud and
(05:56):
proud and strongly usingrhetoric to rile up his base and
to ensure that people areafraid.
On abortion, they're trying tofly as quiet as they can under
the radar while also taking awayour freedoms.
And so it's really crucial thatpeople who are covering this
(06:18):
time, as messy and chaotic as itis, keep a really sharp eye on
the attacks, whether they aresubtle or quiet or not, so that
the public actually knows whatis happening, and so that
lawmakers and um people who havean opportunity to do something
about it and who can be heldaccountable for stripping away
(06:42):
our rights um understand thatthat's what's at stake.
Jennie (06:45):
I really love that you talked about that it's not gonna
stop at abortion, and I thinkwe had a really clear signal of
that recently.
The administration has beentalking about burning $10
million worth of contraceptionthat was supposed to go to women
overseas.
And in their statement, theytalked about it as abortifacient
birth control when it was IUDs,implants, birth control pills,
(07:09):
and injectables.
Fatima (07:10):
Yeah, I mean, we can see they're not really trying to
hide that much, I guess, howthey how they plan to go after
contraception.
And they're gonna do itbasically how they went after
abortion.
But first they have to claimthat contraception is abortion,
right?
And so, that's both notscientifically true, but they
(07:31):
believe that if they call itabortion or use terms like
"abortion aid," which people arelike, what is that?
That that will lead people tonot like contraception.
I mean, the statistics aroundthis are pretty clear.
Like, 90% of women in thiscountry have used contraception
at some point.
(07:51):
And so, when you start goingafter contraception, restricting
access to it, making it harderto get, or doing something as
wild as burning it, I mean, thefirst thing you gotta ask is:
where is DOGE?
Why are you how how is itefficient to burn contraception
(08:12):
that was already acquired andready to be delivered to ensure
that people have access to theirhealth care?
But what they're looking to doreally is make it so that people
are confused. They mightsupport contraception, but maybe
there's something that theyneed to know about this.
(08:35):
And so again, our task in thistime is to ensure that people
are aware that it's happening,that it doesn't fly on the
radar, and that people are notconfused about the
science, which leads me to onemore point that I think is
really important to make.
It's how they plan to go aftercontraception, following the
(08:57):
playbook that they use to goafter abortion.
You know, access to abortion isabortion care is safe.
We know that.
But the way that they attackedit was by just declaring it to
be "unsafe." Medication abortionis safe.
We know that, that it is safe,that it is effective, that it
(09:21):
has been used for decades.
Its safety rating is betterthan most things that people
find in their medicine cabinets.
And now what they're trying todo to go after it is just sort
of say, we we've declared itunsafe.
Not because there is scientificevidence of it, but because
(09:42):
they're trying to confuse andput forward a playbook that
allows people to be less surethan they are about their
support.
That same effort is going to beused to contraception.
And we cannot allow it.
We cannot allow the chaos, wecannot allow the undermining of
(10:04):
science, and we cannot allow thetotal disregarding of our
fundamental freedoms to lead topeople not getting the critical
care that they need.
Jennie (10:14):
Yeah, it's amazing how you talk about seeing the
abortion playbook being playedout with contraception because
you're also seeing it beingplayed out around
gender-affirming care.
That's right.
You're seeing the exact samething being done in that space
and a lot of talking heads notlearning the lessons of the
abortion rights movement thatthey need to have learned to
(10:35):
protect gender-affirming care.
Fatima (10:37):
That's absolutely right.
We're both seeing the playbookthat they use to undermine
abortion care play out ingender-affirming care, but now
you've had this accelerationfrom the administration and they
have they have sort of ralliedaround the idea that the polling
around trans folks in thistime, after you know, a decade
(11:00):
of a giant misinformationcampaign, is is at levels that
are really low.
The public is really confused,and they are more susceptible to
the hateful and uninformedrhetoric.
So, that's when they arestriking, right?
We saw that happen aroundabortion for many, many years,
(11:21):
where they use misinformation tomake people confused about the
care that people needed.
And it really took thatfundamental freedom of abortion
access going away, and the manycourageous people who were
willing to tell their storiesand share their experience of
(11:42):
what their life was like whenthey couldn't access the care
they need to ensure that thepublic paid attention correctly.
And in this time where so manypeople are terrified that they
won't be able to get the carethat they need.
When I've talked personally toso many parents who are worried
(12:03):
about their own kids and notbeing able to continue their
care.
I've talked to adults who areworried about their ability to
get their care going forward.
All of that isn't more enabledin the context of a cultural and
state-led misinformation anddemonization campaign, right?
(12:27):
The more they make us feel likepeople who need access to this
care are othered and not worthyor not good people, the more
they're able to do things tomake it hard to get that care.
We saw that happen in abortion.
We're seeing it in real timehappening around
gender-affirming care, and wewill see it happen around
(12:50):
contraception.
Jennie (12:51):
You know, you talk about stories, and we've seen how
powerful stories are in changingpeople's minds.
And one of those areas that hasreally shown post-Dobbs is
around stories around emergencyaccess to abortion.
What is the state of trying toaccess abortion in an emergency
situation right now?
There was so much going onaround it, and it's begun, it
(13:14):
feels like quiet for a littlebit, but things are still
happening, right?
Fatima (13:18):
Yeah, for sure.
And again, that quiet is not anaccident, right?
And then I've been so gratefulto the many storytellers who
have given us the gift of theirstories, who have shared their
experiences so that peopleunderstand that this is
happening.
But if I could take a stepback, what ended up happening
was less than two months aftertaking office, the Trump
(13:41):
administration's Department ofJustice dismissed a case that
was challenging and full andtotal abortion ban in the state
of Idaho.
It's one of the strictest inthe country.
The state of Idaho prohibitsabortion even when the health of
the person who is pregnant isat risk.
(14:04):
And in doing so, the Trumpadministration sided with the
many, many extremists who wantto allow doctors to continue to
turn away patients who needemergency care.
We've had these clients aswell.
It is devastating.
People going from hospital tohospital or state to state when
(14:27):
they're in a state of emergency.
It's a scary thing and itshould not ever happen.
The Supreme Court consideredthe case and it ultimately sent
it back to the lower courtswithout a decision.
And so now we're in thissituation where the Trump
administration just dismissedit.
And so the question that peoplehave is what is going to happen
(14:49):
to this fight?
Fortunately, a hospital came inand the case will be able to
continue, but not because theTrump administration is
continuing to say that Idaho hasa law that is not allowed
because it doesn't provide forthe health of the person who's
(15:11):
actually pregnant.
The Trump administration alsorescinded guidance that
reaffirmed that health careproviders had to provide
emergency abortion care topatients who are in medical
crisis.
And when that guidance wasrescinded, you know, many of us
(15:32):
objected, we readied litigation,and then the Trump
administration put out newguidance that sent a really
terrible signal and it hascreated a lot of confusion in
hospital rooms because underthis guidance, states can block
hospitals from providing healthand life-saving care to pregnant
(15:57):
people when they're in crisis.
And so we're running the riskof having the same thing where
patients are being denied accessto care.
We're running the risk ofhaving the same thing of
patients being able to having togo from state to state when
they're in a state of emergency.
You know, if you go back to thestories you've heard, right,
(16:19):
this the people who have sharedtheir really harrowing
experience of being in medicalcrisis, sometimes believing they
were going to die, some beingin sepsis or other conditions
and not getting able to get, notbeing able to get the care they
need, you realize that thisquestion of emergency abortion
(16:41):
care, it is about our health, itis about our future fertility,
and it is actually about ourlives.
And so this administration, theTrump administration, has
pretty squarely aligned itselfwith anti-abortion politicians
who are seeking to just do anationwide ban on all abortion
(17:02):
care, including abortion care.
That is emergency abortion care.
Jennie (17:07):
You know, and I think the big thing for me is like
none of this is happening in avacuum, right?
We have a maternal mortalitycrisis in this country,
particularly for Black women.
We are also seeing post-ops uhhospitals closing their OB
wards.
Like this is pushing healthcare further out of reach for
pregnant people, and this isonly going to compound this
(17:30):
healthcare crisis we currentlyhave.
Fatima (17:32):
Yeah, it's definitely not happening in a vacuum at
all.
It is layered on top of a realcrisis in maternal health that
is worse for Black andIndigenous women, right?
The rates there are especiallyshocking.
But really, pregnancy in thiscountry is way too uneven.
(17:55):
And already we were having achallenge, especially in rural
areas, of having enough accessto medical care and maternity
wards shutting down.
And then over the summer, whatyou saw was President Trump's
"Big, Beautiful Bill." We callit the Big Ugly Bill, because
(18:17):
one of the things that it doesis gut Medicaid.
And we know that hospitalsaround the country will close.
Almost half of all births inthis country are paid for by
Medicaid.
And so that is going to be achallenge not only to the
individuals who are forced offof Medicaid, and you know, there
(18:40):
will be millions that will losetheir health coverage as a
result of this bill.
But the health ecosystem alsoisn't in a vacuum, and there
will be hospitals that close,especially in rural parts of the
country.
Jennie (18:58):
This is one of those that hits especially close to
home for me.
I grew up in rural Wisconsin.
The hospital I would have goneto uh is a rural hospital, and
it is the only public hospitalin southern Wisconsin.
And so, that is really scary tothink that what this could mean
for that local hospital that isseeing people who don't have
(19:19):
insurance and what it would meanfor their future access to
care.
Fatima (19:22):
Yeah, I mean, I think the really difficult thing is
that this bill that was shoveddown the American people's
throats over this summer was setup with the hope that people
would either forget about it ornot sure who to be upset about
it as their hospitals close, asthe cost of health care rises,
(19:42):
as they lose their insurance, orthe cost of their own insurance
goes up.
But we have to be clear inreminding people exactly what
happened in that bill, but alsoconnecting it to the other steps
that have been taken thatalready have made access to
health care, especially duringpregnancy, a giant challenge.
(20:04):
None of this is about ensuringthat people can get the best
care that they can.
None of this is about ensuringthat you are supporting
pregnancy or improving birthoutcomes that are well.
All of this is aboutcontrolling our bodies, our
(20:25):
freedoms, our futures.
It does not make sense, and italso does not match what people
in this country say that theywant.
The irony is there's there isnot an area where people
disagree really.
Almost nine out of ten peoplein this country support
protecting access to emergencyabortion care for patients who
(20:47):
need it.
That should be the beginningand the end of the conversation.
Jennie (20:51):
Yeah, and I mean we've touched on this a little bit,
but if this push to, you know,the lawsuit over
EMTALA [Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act],which uh ensures that people
can have access to abortion inemergencies when their health or
life is at risk, you know, thisis still working through the
lawsuit.
Like you said, what are some ofthe impacts we could see if we
(21:11):
get a bad ruling on people'slives?
Because this is what we'retalking about.
Fatima (21:15):
Right.
I mean, we're absolutelytalking about the lives and the
health of people in thiscountry.
Pregnancy shouldn't be a deathsentence.
People shouldn't have to fleetheir states if they're in the
midst of pregnancy, theirpregnancy going wrong.
But the thing is, most peopleat some point in their pregnancy
(21:38):
go to the hospital.
You always hope that everythingis fine.
Sometimes it's just not fine.
And we don't often tell thosestories.
Those are not like the happybirth ending stories, those are
the sadder stories whensomething goes wrong.
But the idea that going to anemergency room to get the care
(21:59):
you need might not result in thecare, might result in
criminalization, might result inyou being turned away, those
are all the future outcomes thatwe can understand will come.
If Idaho's law is allowed to gointo effect, if we see more
(22:21):
states move forward with lawsthat allow doctors to turn away
people who are in need ofemergency abortion care.
You know, I don't want to hearmore stories about people going
from state to state or people,you know, bleeding in parking
lots of hospitals.
(22:42):
That's not what should happenin this country.
There is giant agreement aroundthat and knowledge that
emergency abortion care saveslives and that anyone who is
pregnant and needs medical careshould receive urgent and
critical care if they need it.
Jennie (23:04):
It really does feel at times like it's a race to the
bottom to see like who can passthe most egregious bill and it's
still continuing, right?
Like, we have not seenthe stop-
Fatima (23:14):
Well, I want to see the race to the top.
Jennie (23:15):
Yes.
And I would say that is anotherbright spot in this time.
And at the same time, you dosee some states trying to
outplay each other to see whocould pass the cruelest,
silliest bill that wouldactually make it more possible
that pregnant people lose theirlives.
We're also seeing some stateslooking to protect providers,
(23:38):
passing things like shield lawsso that providers in their
states can focus on providingthe care that they know that
they are trained to provide,that they can follow their
medical oaths rather than youknow, in a corner with their
lawyers to figure out if they goto jail if they provide
emergency abortion care.
(23:58):
That's what's happening rightnow in a lot of parts of the
country.
So, the states that are passingshield laws, the states that
are taking steps to train moremedical providers, the states
that are, you know, recruitingmore medical providers from
hostile state, there, you know,there are things that are
(24:18):
happening right now that aregiving me great hope that we
will continue to fight for notonly our freedoms, but the
health and and well-being ofpeople in this country, and and
that that gives me a lot ofhope.
I love talking about what gives gives you hope in
this moment because it can feelkind of bleak, but there is so
(24:38):
much that is being done that isbringing me hope.
Okay.
So we'll keep that in mind, butI am gonna ask the like, what
is something you're keeping aneye on that you're worried
about?
But then also, what issomething you're keeping an eye
on that is giving you hopethat's coming down the pipe?
Fatima (24:54):
Yeah, I'm deeply worried about a quiet effort to move
forward a national abortion ban.
I don't think that they areplaying around.
I've read Project 2025.
We have summaries of it on theNational Women's Law Center
website, and that's their plan.
And in so many other areas, wehave seen them work to fulfill
(25:18):
Project 2025 as fast aspossible.
So, I believe they're goingafter medication abortion.
I believe they want to revive acenturies-year-old law called
the Comstock Act and make it sothat it's illegal to mail
anything related to abortion.
That's coming.
I see it coming.
(25:38):
I take the threat seriously,and I think people in this
country should not look awayfrom that.
I know that they are quietlydismantling our rights and our
freedoms, and that just means weall have to be a little bit
louder.
I will say the thing that isgiving me a lot of hope right
now continues to be thestorytellers.
(26:01):
Many of them, you know, andsome as a part of the election
in 2024 told their stories forthe first time, were on national
stages, some even cut TV ads.
They haven't gone away.
And that is a thing that willalways inspire me.
They are continuing to forcepeople to hear their stories.
(26:25):
That's true for the many womenwho were turned away from
hospitals and want people toknow what that's like.
That's true from the parentsand the families of women who
lost their lives, women inGeorgia and in Texas who didn't
(26:45):
survive poor medical care, whodidn't survive these outrageous
laws that are not about patienthealth, that are only about
control.
And so, that's giving me hope.
And I think we're gonnacontinue to see them be a force.
Jennie (27:02):
Oh, I love that answer.
I feel like mine is usuallyabortion funds and the clinics,
like all the people on theground who are doing everything
they can to make sure people getthe care they need.
Like that gives me so much hopeto continue the fight every
day.
But I also love the storytellerone.
Like, that's great because itbrings so much attention and
does so much to combat stigma,which we are all just steeped in
(27:25):
everywhere.
Fatima (27:26):
Absolutely.
Here, here always to abortionfunds and abortion providers who
are working locally, they'redoing it under a lot of
pressure, a lot of threat, needthat is far greater than it was
before, resources that are farfewer.
And so, yeah, they're my heroestoo.
Jennie (27:45):
Okay, before we wrap things up, I feel like this
would be a giant missedopportunity if we did not
comment on —yesterday as we arerecording— yesterday's action
by RFK Jr.
and HHS and the White Houselinking autism to the use of
Tylenol during pregnancy.
This feels like something weshould at least mention.
(28:06):
So, Fatima, what are youthinking about this?
Fatima (28:09):
So, here's one of the things about the latest attack
on Tylenol that is a part of abroader effort to attack
pregnancy and not be led by thescience.
It is right now we are hearingfrom women around the country
(28:29):
who are giantly confused, whodon't know what to do.
But what they do know is thatpregnant women are being blamed
for everything, right?
So it's very easy to punish andblame pregnant women as a
strategy.
We deserve so much more.
We deserve to be able to havehealthy pregnancies, to not be
(28:50):
attacked by the state, and tonot have either our medical
providers or everyday peopleconfused by what is coming out
of health and human services.
It is dangerous behavior.
Jennie (29:03):
Okay, so I want to be cognizant of the time and
respectful of yours, but Ialways like to end focusing on
action, not just what's bad, butwhat can the audience do?
How can people get involved inthis moment?
Fatima (29:15):
Well, the thing that I want everyone to take away is
that they need to gather theirpeople and share information.
One of the things that we knowis that people are more hopeful
when they are connected and theyare more likely to take action
if they're encouraged to do soby someone they know.
So you can sign up for theNational Women's Law Center's
(29:38):
information or for another.
I'm wanting you to identifythree other people that you're
gonna ask to be your people.
You're gonna make sure theyknow what's going on, you're
gonna have them take action withyou, and you're gonna see
yourself as a crew that ismoving together in this time.
Jennie (30:01):
I love that.
Fatima, thank you so much forbeing here today.
It was such a pleasure to talkto you.
Thanks for having me.
Okay, y'all.
I hope you enjoyed myconversation with Fatima.
I had such a great time talkingto her about honestly a whole
range of issues.
So thank you, Fatima, for doingthis.
It was so wonderful to talk toyou.
And with that, I will seeeveryone next week.
(30:23):
If you have any questions,comments, or topics you would
like us to cover, always feelfree to shoot me an email.
You can reach me atjennie@reprosfightback.com or
you can find us on social media.
We're at rePROs Fight Back onFacebook and Twitter, or
@ReprosFB on Instagram.
If you love our podcast andwant to make sure more people
(30:44):
find it, take the time to rateand review us on your favorite
podcast platform.
Or if you want to make sure tosupport the podcast, you can
also donate on our website atreprosfightback.com.
Thanks all!
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The Burden
The Burden is a documentary series that takes listeners into the hidden places where justice is done (and undone). It dives deep into the lives of heroes and villains. And it focuses a spotlight on those who triumph even when the odds are against them. Season 5 - The Burden: Death & Deceit in Alliance On April Fools Day 1999, 26-year-old Yvonne Layne was found murdered in her Alliance, Ohio home. David Thorne, her ex-boyfriend and father of one of her children, was instantly a suspect. Another young man admitted to the murder, and David breathed a sigh of relief, until the confessed murderer fingered David; “He paid me to do it.” David was sentenced to life without parole. Two decades later, Pulitzer winner and podcast host, Maggie Freleng (Bone Valley Season 3: Graves County, Wrongful Conviction, Suave) launched a “live” investigation into David's conviction alongside Jason Baldwin (himself wrongfully convicted as a member of the West Memphis Three). Maggie had come to believe that the entire investigation of David was botched by the tiny local police department, or worse, covered up the real killer. Was Maggie correct? Was David’s claim of innocence credible? In Death and Deceit in Alliance, Maggie recounts the case that launched her career, and ultimately, “broke” her.” The results will shock the listener and reduce Maggie to tears and self-doubt. This is not your typical wrongful conviction story. In fact, it turns the genre on its head. It asks the question: What if our champions are foolish? Season 4 - The Burden: Get the Money and Run “Trying to murder my father, this was the thing that put me on the path.” That’s Joe Loya and that path was bank robbery. Bank, bank, bank, bank, bank. In season 4 of The Burden: Get the Money and Run, we hear from Joe who was once the most prolific bank robber in Southern California, and beyond. He used disguises, body doubles, proxies. He leaped over counters, grabbed the money and ran. Even as the FBI was closing in. It was a showdown between a daring bank robber, and a patient FBI agent. Joe was no ordinary bank robber. He was bright, articulate, charismatic, and driven by a dark rage that he summoned up at will. In seven episodes, Joe tells all: the what, the how… and the why. Including why he tried to murder his father. Season 3 - The Burden: Avenger Miriam Lewin is one of Argentina’s leading journalists today. At 19 years old, she was kidnapped off the streets of Buenos Aires for her political activism and thrown into a concentration camp. Thousands of her fellow inmates were executed, tossed alive from a cargo plane into the ocean. Miriam, along with a handful of others, will survive the camp. Then as a journalist, she will wage a decades long campaign to bring her tormentors to justice. Avenger is about one woman’s triumphant battle against unbelievable odds to survive torture, claim justice for the crimes done against her and others like her, and change the future of her country. Season 2 - The Burden: Empire on Blood Empire on Blood is set in the Bronx, NY, in the early 90s, when two young drug dealers ruled an intersection known as “The Corner on Blood.” The boss, Calvin Buari, lived large. He and a protege swore they would build an empire on blood. Then the relationship frayed and the protege accused Calvin of a double homicide which he claimed he didn’t do. But did he? Award-winning journalist Steve Fishman spent seven years to answer that question. This is the story of one man’s last chance to overturn his life sentence. He may prevail, but someone’s gotta pay. The Burden: Empire on Blood is the director’s cut of the true crime classic which reached #1 on the charts when it was first released half a dozen years ago. Season 1 - The Burden In the 1990s, Detective Louis N. Scarcella was legendary. In a city overrun by violent crime, he cracked the toughest cases and put away the worst criminals. “The Hulk” was his nickname. Then the story changed. Scarcella ran into a group of convicted murderers who all say they are innocent. They turned themselves into jailhouse-lawyers and in prison founded a lway firm. When they realized Scarcella helped put many of them away, they set their sights on taking him down. And with the help of a NY Times reporter they have a chance. For years, Scarcella insisted he did nothing wrong. But that’s all he’d say. Until we tracked Scarcella to a sauna in a Russian bathhouse, where he started to talk..and talk and talk. “The guilty have gone free,” he whispered. And then agreed to take us into the belly of the beast. Welcome to The Burden.