October 14, 2025 • 34 mins
Anti-abortion extremists are hard at work attacking access through the courts, policy, clinic harassment, and more. Simultaneously, the Trump administration’s chaos—including RFK Jr.’s harmful actions as head of HHS—are continuing to disassemble comprehensive sexual and reproductive health and rights, brick-by-brick. Mini Timmaraju, President and CEO of Reproductive Freedom for All, sits down to talk with us about how anti-abortion extremists are endlessly and strategically beelining for abortion and contraception.
One focus of attack centers on mifepristone, the first of two medications taken during a medication abortion. It is extremely safe and has been available on the market for 25 years. Yet, Alliance for Hippocratic Medicine v. FDA out of Texas saw anti-abortion advocates arguing against mifepristone (despite FDA approval of hundreds of studies proving its safety). It was headed by anti-reproductive health and rights judge Matthew Kacsmaryk, who has now sent the case to Missouri. Judge Kacsmaryk has referenced the Comstock Act, which would ban the mailing of abortion pills.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jennie (00:03):
Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, a podcast on all things
related to sexual andreproductive health, rights, and
justice.
Hi, rePROs.
How's everybody doing?
I'm your host, Jennie Wetter,and my pronouns are she/her.
So, I've been keeping a littlesecret from y'all.
The last couple weeks, whileyou have heard episodes, I have
been off in Italy on vacation,and I'm technically still on
(00:28):
vacation, but if you're hearingthis when it comes out, I am
flying back today.
But since I will be home, Ifeel okay saying that I have
been gone.
I am really looking forward tothis trip.
I've never been to Italy, andI'm very much looking forward to
seeing all the sights andeating all of the delicious food
and drinking the wine and justhaving a great time.
(00:48):
I'm going with two of mycousins and one of my aunts, and
I am just really excited tostep away from all of the things
that are happening here andjust take some time to have fun
and not think about any of it,hopefully.
So I will tell you more aboutmy vacation probably next week
(01:08):
after I have actually been backand I'm recording.
So that explains if anythinghappened the last couple weeks
that I didn't talk about.
That would be why, because Ihave not been around.
But something happened today asI'm recording this that I did
want to talk about, and that isthe passing of Jane Goodall.
I was very much of the youngcohort of young girls who really
(01:28):
grew up looking up to her.
And, you know, I was reallyinto animals and science.
And so she was just somebodythat I was really one of my
heroes when I was young.
And I followed her work growingup and through the years, read
multiple of her books, andfollowed what she was working on
(01:50):
at the time, whether it wasworking with chimps or broader
environment things, or she haddone work on education as well.
So, I really followed her overthe years, and she has led such
an amazing life.
And I really enjoyed learningmore about her as I grew up.
And like I said, she was justsuch a hero of mine.
(02:11):
So, this one is hitting alittle close to home.
I was lucky enough to see herspeak a couple times and got to
meet her one time when she wasspeaking at the Capitol, and it
just it just meant a lot to getto meet her in person and just
to get to see her, you know.
As I said, lots of heroworship.
(02:32):
I had a colleague at the time,Emily, who really pushed me to
get my picture taken with herbecause that was not something I
would have ever decided to do,and I'm really grateful she did
because I have this greatpicture of me and Jane Goodall.
And so I just this is one ofthose passings that really is
close to home because she justfelt like such a uh like always
(02:54):
there in the background, right?
Like I can't remember a timewhen I didn't know who she was
and the work she was doing.
I feel like I get a lot ofkids' books from my friends that
there's like a book called MeetJane, I think it's called, that
I've gotten for lots of kids.
That is like a little kid'sbook about Jane Goodall.
So yeah, she just did suchamazing work and uh is very
(03:18):
sorely going to be missed.
I think those are all of thebig things I want to talk about.
I mean, I don't know what'sgonna happen between when I'm
recording this and when you'llhear it, but I am very much
looking forward to my vacation,and I will tell you all about it
when I get back.
I'm looking forward to doingsome fun reading and just having
time away from all of thethings that are happening.
(03:38):
But one of those things that ishappening is this tough subject
of today's episode.
There have been lots of attackson mifepristone lately, from
attacks in the court systemthrough the FDA reviewing the
safety of it.
So we are going to talk aboutwhat is going on with
mifepristone today.
And with me, I couldn't thinkof a better person to have than
(03:59):
Mini Timmaraju with ReproductiveFreedom For All to talk to us
about what is happening.
So let's go to my interviewwith Mini.
Hi, Mini.
Thank you so much for beinghere today.
Mini (04:11):
Thanks for having me, Jennie.
It's so nice to meet y ou.
Jennie (04:14):
I'm so excited to have you on.
Before we dig into everything,do you want to take a second and
introduce yourself?
Mini (04:20):
That sounds great.
My name is Mini Timmaraju, andI am the president and CEO of
Reproductive Freedom for All,the organization formerly known
as NARAL Pro Choice America.
We're about a 55-year-oldorganization with four million
members across all 50 states.
And I've been in this jobcoming up on my four years, my
(04:43):
four-year anniversary soon.
Wow, I cannot believe it hasbeen four years already.
Yeah, it's been it's been likehaving like a wild four years,
though, right?
Yeah, but I have smallchildren, and folks say the days
are long and the years areshort.
Yeah, that's how I feel aboutthis job.
Jennie (04:59):
No, that feels exactly right.
Mini (05:02):
Like it went by like that.
Actually, my first day on thejob was just a couple of weeks
before the oral arguments in theDobbs case at the Supreme
Court.
So, that's sort of been thewhole trajectory of my
experience being back in themovement— has been very, you
know, pre-Dobbs, post-Dobbsdefined.
(05:24):
And it was one of themotivating factors for me to
come back was knowing that Dobbswas on the horizon.
Jennie (05:29):
Yeah, I mean, what a baptism by fire, right?
Like, just jump right into thedeep end.
Mini (05:34):
Super, you know what?
May as well do it the do it thehard way.
Jennie (05:40):
So, I am excited to talk to you today about what is
going on with mifepristone, butmaybe just if people aren't as
familiar, maybe we'll just liketake a quick step back and like
when we talk about mifepristone,what are we talking about?
Mini (05:53):
Yeah, we're talking about medication abortion.
Mifepristone is one part of atwo-pill medication abortion
protocol.
And it's really becomesomething that more and more
Americans know about thanks tothe extreme anti-abortion
movement's demonization ofmifepristone, right?
It's been safe and on themarket for over 20, maybe almost
(06:16):
25 years.
I should know this.
Yes, didn't we just have a 25?
Yes, it just happened.
Thank you.
I'm just gonna caveat and say Iam post-menopausal, and that is
relevant to reproductive rightsand freedom.
So, sometimes I get a littlebit of brain fog, and there's no
nothing wrong with that.
And I'm gonna talk, and that'sa future topic maybe that you
and I can have in one daybecause I'm an expert.
(06:36):
So, 25 years, of course we knowthat because I spent the whole
weekend doing press on it.
25 years of mifepristone onthe market.
That means, as many of yourlisteners understand, FDA
approval, extensive review,extensive studies, market
research in real time on themarket for 25 years.
(06:58):
But medication abortion hasbecome, you know, the the
largest accounts for themajority of abortions in this
country.
And that's meant um, that'sbeen, as a result, the reason
for a massive target on its backby opponents of abortion who um
understand that, you know,despite the Dobbs decision and
bans and restrictions in 21states, abortion rates have gone
(07:22):
up because of telemedicine andmedication abortion.
And mifepristone is critical tothat.
It's also critical tomiscarriage management, it's
also critical for other types ofhealth care and the
reproductive health care space,but it's the abortion care
that's really got our opponentsriled up and it's put it at
risk.
And because it accounts for themost abortions in this country,
(07:43):
it's dangerous that it's underthis type of attack.
Jennie (07:46):
I feel like we've seen it under attack in a couple
different ways.
Mini (07:50):
Yeah.
Jennie (07:51):
Let's start maybe with through the courts.
I know that it feels like Icould go any number of ways
here, but I think the court oneis the one we've talked about a
little bit on the podcast sofar.
So, what are we seeing?
Mini (08:02):
Probably the more realistic, the one of the many
options that's most likely.
Jennie (08:06):
Okay, so how are we seeing it attacked in courts?
Mini (08:10):
Well, it's so interesting, right?
Because it was in, it's incourt right now in Texas.
Famously, Judge MatthewKacsmaryk, uh, a case that was
brought to his court last year,went all the way to the Supreme
Court.
Alliance for HippocraticMedicine versus FDA.
Matthew Kacsmaryk is famouslyone of the most extreme judges
(08:30):
on so many issues beyondabortion rights.
Um, he's in Texas, and uhthere's a lot of forum shopping,
right?
A lot of folks have filed casesin his court because they know
he's an extremist and he's uh aone judge court, and it's been a
way for them to push throughsome really extreme, crazy laws.
That case got kicked down bythe Supreme Court based on
(08:52):
standing.
The group, Alliance forHippocratic Medicine, was
basically a group of, I like tocall them like just a group of
crackpots, you know.
There wasn't an abortionprovider among them.
It was like a dentist, right?
There was dentists?
Jennie (09:05):
A dentist.
But that's who I go to about myabortion care or post-abortion
care.
Mini (09:10):
And so, of course, the Supreme Court, despite its own
like capture by extremists,could had to say, look, look,
you don't have standing.
None of you have actually beenharmed by the availability of
medication abortion, uh, anddon't have standing to go after
the FDA.
So, fast forward, we are nowback in Kacsmaryk's court,
multiple states.
Now it's Missouri v.
(09:32):
FDA, and why would that be inTexas?
But in a startling move ofcommon sense last night,
Matthew Kacsmaryk, I'm gonna getthis wrong because I am not a
practicing attorney, butbasically made a motion to move
this whole thing to Missouriwhere it should be.
Jennie (09:47):
Oh, I missed that.
Yeah, that happened late lastnight— or late in the day last
night is when we got word of it—to move the whole dang thing to
Missouri and say that makesmore sense, not my court, but it
will allow for an equallypretty disastrous court that's
got a majority of right-wingextremists on its court and in a
circuit that's also very, veryconservative.
(10:08):
So, it's not so much betterthan Texas to the Fifth Circuit
to the Supreme Court, but itdoes, it is fascinating that we
I haven't seen a full analysisof why folks think he washed his
hands of it and threw it overto Missouri, except our
organization also works onjudicial nominees, and two of
the most extreme Josh Hawleynominees are gonna be on that
(10:29):
court.
And some of them have deep tiesto this case and this issue.
I don't know that they'll be oncourt in time.
They are still in the processof being confirmed, but they
will eventually get confirmed,and this case will eventually be
in that court, and they willeventually be on that court.
So, this is all to say that youcannot disconnect the
conversation around medication,abortion, nephew pristone from
(10:50):
the courts, from thecongressional process with
digital nominations, and howsmart and effective the anti's
have been at really infiltratingand capturing the court and
creating these bogusorganizations like Alliance for
Hippocratic Medicine in part tospecifically file these cases.
But now, in collusion withRepublican attorneys general
(11:13):
from these red states with bans,they've gotten smart.
They've realized their strategydidn't work.
I'm assuming Kacsmarykrealized, you know, the standing
issue would come back up againwith Missouri intervening in his
court and he's just gonna makeit cleaner, and they're gonna
make sure they're in a statewhere there was actually, in
their mind, harm.
But the last thing I'll say isMissouri is the state that just
(11:34):
codified a right to abortionthrough a ballot measure and
still has a Republican extremisttrifecta.
So we're not able to actuallydo what the voters asked them to
do, which is make abortionlegal.
So all of this being inMissouri, I think has really
particularly interestingpolitical ramifications that uh
we should be watching reallyclosely.
(11:55):
You got Josh Hawley, you gotthese judges, you got this court
basically poised to do exactlythe opposite of what voters in
their state said they should do,which is protect abortion care.
That was a lot.
That was a very long run-onsentence.
Sorry, Jennie.
No, that was all really good.
And it actually just made methink that wow, I haven't done
an episode focusing on just likethe courts in a while.
(12:18):
We did a number of those acouple of years ago, but it's
it's been a while.
I wonder why a couple of yearsago you did that.
What happened?
Yeah.
Well, not what changed.
Yeah, like it is it is likeworking its way through the
court system, and unfortunately,that's not the only place we're
seeing it.
It's now coming up with the FDAand looking at using the I
(12:41):
mean, you can't even call it astudy, the pseudo-science fake
paper thing.
And if people want to know moreabout what is wrong with that,
we have an episode on it.
Mini (12:52):
Words on paper that they're calling a study.
Yes.
Jennie (12:55):
Yes.
To try and challenge its FDAapproval.
Do you want to talk a littlebit about that process and where
we are right now?
Mini (13:02):
Yeah, just recently in the last few weeks, Secretary of
Health and Human Services RFKJr., a sentence that I cannot
like.
I think if I flashed, if likeif we time traveled and the old
me heard those words coming outof my mouth, they'd be like,
What the hell are you talkingabout?
Yeah.
If possible, the leastqualified secretary of HHS in
(13:23):
human history, uh Robert F.
Kennedy Jr., actually did whatwe expected him to do all along,
which was in response toRepublican attorneys general.
Also, again, this is importantthrough lines to Republican AGs,
who basically sent a letter toFDA, to the Senate, you know, to
RFK saying, hey, you know, wewant you to revisit
mifepristone.
(13:44):
We have this study, I'm doingair quotes for listeners.
We have the study that says uhthere's been harm, and we want
it's the same kind of studythat's been used in these court
cases.
So it's honestly one strategy,just different tactics, really,
which is to invalidate thesafety of mifepristone and say
it needs further review.
(14:04):
This is for a couple ofreasons.
One, you know, we know duringthe COVID pandemic, in part due
to the Biden administration'sreview, uh, FDA under the Biden
administration, that they mademifepristone available in brick
and mortar pharmacies and bymail and through telemed, in
(14:24):
part to respond to overall, youknow, shifting of access to care
for so many things to telemedand mail.
And it was after 20, almost 20years of evidence of safety.
And this is important becausenow that we're in this moment
with post-Dobbs where we havefolks in states with bans who
(14:45):
need access to care through themail and telemed, it's more
critical than ever that this isallowed to be prescribed this
way, right?
And provided this way.
So what the FDA is doing isthey're saying they're gonna
review, they're gonna reviewthat policy shift, right?
The REMs is what they'recalled.
And they're going to alsoreview whether or not the whole
(15:07):
authorization of FDA could bereversed.
Now, that is if I were to placebets, I'd say that's down the
line that the quickest, fastestthing they could do would be to
reverse those COVID-era rulesbecause that's low-hanging
fruit, right?
They don't need a lot.
The FDA process is cumbersome,but they could reverse that
(15:30):
pretty quickly.
It will take a lot longer, justbecause of their own internal
processes, to actually revokeauthorization of mifepristone
entirely.
And I think it would provoke akind of political backlash that
they are not interested in.
You've got this interestingpolitical dynamic where Donald
Trump um has been out theresaying he's not gonna mess with
(15:50):
mifepristone.
You even had Marty Makary on,the FDA commissioner on, you
know, MSNBC saying he wasn'tgoing to change this.
But they're not, nobody'sdirectly commenting on this
situation about telemed goingthrough the mail, etc.
The movement folks who work inpolitics to raise all the alarm
(16:10):
around it because it's a littlebit in the weeds, right?
Oh, you're not banning it.
You're just, it's about safety.
You know, things in the mail,they can be scary.
Maybe it's fraud.
There, they could create a lotof noise around it that would
make it harder for us topolitically fight back.
So that's why I think it'sprobably the most likely of the
(16:31):
scenarios, but it's not aslikely as the courts.
The courts are still a fasterway for them to do this.
FDA authorization opens up aton of can of worms.
When this went to SupremeCourt, we saw um business,
pharma finally, after a reallylong time weighing in and
saying, if you startpoliticizing, you know,
(16:52):
authorization and review ofmedicines, like we're never
gonna get out of this hellhole.
You know, whether it'svaccines, whether it's
medication abortion, don't gothere.
So, there's a significantbusiness interest in not letting
this happen through the FDA.
Jennie (17:07):
I think it's also just really important to note that
this is not a harmless move.
Like it would it may be hard toexplain to some people, like
you said, why getting rid ofbeing able to mail or do telemed
would be a problem.
But it's huge, huge, huge.
Mini (17:26):
It's huge because post-Dobbs, again, just to
repeat, 21 states with bans andrestrictions, folks are getting
access to care.
It's so huge that on theanniversary of Dobbs, the head
of Susan B.
Anthony list, MarjorieDannenfelser, was on Fox News
and she was getting grilled byFox News reporters saying, why
is abortion going up when youguys overturned Roe?
(17:49):
And she was like, That's why wehave to go after medication
abortion on the record, out inthe open.
That's why we gotta have to goafter shield laws.
That's why we have to go afterproviders.
That's why we have to go aftermedication abortion and telemed.
And shield laws, I'm sure youguys have talked about, are the
laws that protect theseproviders from providing care to
patients from other states,amongst other things.
So, they are highly aware thatthey are losing the war on
(18:12):
abortion, even though theyoverturn the federal protection
because people need abortion andthey want abortion care and
they're gonna get it.
And we've now created enough ofan ecosystem in this country
where folks can get it.
So, what do you do?
You're gonna go after, you'regonna, you're gonna try to
institute a backdoor abortionban that would ban the most
(18:33):
accessible way to access care instates that have protected
abortion care, like Californiaand New York.
So it's extremely dangerous.
It would have devastatingconsequences and ripple effects
and would effectively banabortion in the majority of the
country, including in stateswhere we have legal protection
for abortion.
Jennie (18:48):
Yeah, and I think it's just so important to point that
out because you may think you'reokay in a state where abortion
is protected, but if people arehaving to physically go to
clinics to get access, andthat's gonna make it much harder
to get access in your statebecause people are having to
travel to that state to get carewhere they were previously able
(19:09):
to be mailed care viatelemedicine.
So it we cannot absorb all ofthose people into the system we
currently have.
Mini (19:17):
And there's time limitations, right?
Every state are different.
Medication abortion is oftenthe fastest.
You can do it early inpregnancy.
You know, can you imagine theimpact it would have on the
clinics that have to do surgicalabortion care?
I mean, it would be it'salready debilitating.
Over 50% of all abortions inthis country are through
medication abortion preciselyfor this reason. We do not have
(19:39):
the infrastructure to takethese, all these patients in
through clinics.
It is just not possible.
Also, it's just a way for youto manage your own abortion in a
dignified way where you controlit.
I mean, which has beenlife-changing for so many people
who've needed this care.
I mean, apparently, this FDAand this HHS has very little
(20:01):
regard for pregnant people, hasvery little regard to spreading
massive disinformation aboutvaccines, Tylenol, you name it,
things that pregnant people andbabies need.
So it's not shocking that thisis the route that they would go,
but it's also, again, I makethe earlier point.
It is horrible.
It is harder to explain tovoters.
(20:21):
Right.
Crack.
It is harder to break through.
And we already had a challengelast year in breaking through to
voters on this because Trumpvery effectively said, I'm gonna
leave this to the states, butthis is not leaving it to the
states.
This is a way, though, ofbaiting and switching the
American people that youpromised you weren't gonna mess
with this.
And that's what thisadministration is doing.
Jennie (20:42):
Well, I also there's like a new crisis every, I mean,
not even every day anymore.
It's like every couple ofhours.
So, like trying to get peopleto keep track of things that are
happening is so hard.
Mini (20:55):
It's really hard right now to break through to anybody on
any of this.
We are an organizingorganization, organizing first.
What that means is, you know,we spend a tremendous amount of
time like training ourvolunteers and our members to
talk to their friends,neighbors, community members, to
reach out to the members ofCongress, to go to the lobby in
their state capitals.
And we have a very loyal,committed base of repro
(21:18):
activists, but even they willcome to meetings and be like,
okay, but there's ICE on mystreet.
You know, my neighbor gotkidnapped.
You know, I can't get my COVIDvaccine.
In my neighborhood, in the DCsuburbs, like half of my
neighborhood's been laid off.
We are in a government shutdowncurrently.
You know, there is so muchchaos that even our own
(21:39):
activists who cared the mostabout this are drowning in the
devastation that thisadministration has wrought on
our day-to-day lives, tariffs,you know, all of it.
It's chaotic.
So, what we've found is we justhave to be relentless about how
much how aggressive we are withspreading this information.
(22:00):
And we have to create as manyopportunities as possible for
activism and accountabilityaround them.
Um, so there's like no thingtoo small to shout out about
this administration, whetherit's medication, abortion, the
Tylenol stuff.
But it's also about thingslike, you know, Costco declining
to carry mifepristone.
We're organizing our memberswho are Costco members.
(22:22):
You've got to have as manytouch points as possible when
you're organizing so that you'recontinually keeping this in the
dialogue because otherwiseyou're not breaking through.
And we we know there's gonna besome fatigue, but at the end of
the day, we have to find asmany ways as possible to get
people to see how it's relevantto their day-to-day life.
And that's the big challengewe're having in this moment.
Jennie (22:43):
I thought one of the things that like jumped out at
me uh among all of thehorribleness with the Tylenol
situation is how often do we usethe the the talking point of
like Miphipristone is the safestTylenol?
Like it that is like one of thefirst things that jumped out at
me.
Mini (23:01):
So literally— and Jessica Valenti, I think, did a whole
piece on this, it was so good—but literally as soon as it
happened, three people in myoffice were like, well, that's
because I mean, it can't bebecause we've been saying safer
than Tylenol.
It's like it's been a hundredpercent part of it.
I'm sure, I mean, why wouldthey go after Tylenol and not
just say versus acetaminophil,right?
(23:22):
Besides the fact that PresidentTrump can't say it.
There was that.
But why specifically Tylenoland not like all the other drugs
that also have elements ofacetaminophil in them,
acetaminophen plus, you know,there's so many medications.
So it was pretty wild.
And I do think that it showsthat while conventional
(23:45):
arguments of like a conventionalRepublican administration would
not pick a fight with a majorpharmaceutical company and a
brand, this administrationdoesn't give a shit.
Can I say that on your show?
Jennie (23:56):
That's fine.
Mini (23:58):
Doesn't give a shit.
They don't, they are inrelentless pursuit of
distraction, and I think that isa classic RFK, like, crazyism.
Like, oh, see, the benefit isbad for pregnant women.
Like, is it?
We have no data, but you've gotan HHS that has pretty much
eliminated the majority of theirevidence-based scientists and
(24:21):
researchers, so he can go outand make statements like that
definitively as the head of HHS.
So, the Tylenol thing isimportant because look, it's
terrifying and it's a way toconnect to average Americans who
aren't always thinking aboutabortion and say they don't care
about pregnant people.
Connect that we gotta keepconnecting it back.
(24:41):
They don't care about you, theydon't care about the people in
your life who could be pregnant.
They have so little regard forpeople who have autism that
they're actually trying to makethis a scare tactic to scare
pregnant women from taking thismedication for alleviation of
minor symptoms, right?
They want to guilt moms whohave kids with autism.
(25:08):
I mean, and all of thosearguments are sticking in a way
that just talking about mifedoes not stick.
So we have to do all of it, butwe've got to find ways to
connect the dots.
Another thing that we've donerecently that was a little on
the edge, but we we tested itand it worked, was talking about
the Epstein files and talkingabout Trump's relationship with
(25:30):
Jeffrey Epstein and connectingthe dots between that,
Pete Hegseth's crazy stuff aboutwomen and not being able to
vote and the right, the throughline, and then the Trump
administration's actions withthe VA on abortion care.
And it tested because it testedwell because voters are like,
oh, we've got to spell it outfor them.
This is a guy who's bestieswith a serial predator himself,
(25:53):
is likely a serial predator,let's be clear.
Then he's got all these likelunatics who are misogynists in
his administration, and this isthe kind of crazy stuff they do
to you and to people you loveand respect, veterans who need
abortion care.
That's it's not, it's all partof a larger plan.
And that was the ad.
It's all part of a larger plan.
And we're testing that ad inthese congressional districts
(26:14):
where we have, you know, folkswho we have to hold accountable
and put pressure on, and we'vegot to like raise the
temperature for them on repro.
So, we're in this chaosenvironment.
We're trying to find the thingsthat are popping with the
public and then connecting itback to repro.
Jennie (26:33):
Yeah, that all makes me think of the- as we are
recording this, the speech byPete Hegseth that was going
after what women in servicetalking about getting rid of
like anonymous reporting, whichis how a lot of sexual assault
victims were reporting.
Like you could just see thatthrough line continuing.
Mini (26:53):
Yeah, in addition to making incredibly deeply, you
know, ableist and you know,phobic or fatphobic comments
about generals and military, itwas the wildest thing to me.
It was like, I appreciate thatyou're lifting up that one piece
because I think he got buriedin all the other crazy lunatic
(27:14):
things he said.
But look, it's very clear to methat Pete Hegseth being there
is not an accident.
And that, you know, I actuallyhad a very smart reporter say to
me this morning, Donald Trumpdoesn't really care about
abortion.
I'm like, he may not, but he'sa misogynist.
He may not, but he's sexist.
He may not, but he definitelyhates women.
So we got to get away from the,well, you know, he probably
(27:37):
paid for a few abortions in hisday and he doesn't care about
abortion, but he doesn't careabout you.
He doesn't care about you.
It's not even about like whatdoes he specifically care about
abortion?
He doesn't care about us.
Or puts people in place who do.
Yes, and that's not anaccident, that's a reflection on
him.
Because what we found in ourexit groups and our exit polling
(28:00):
and our focus groups post theelection was that a lot of
people were like, well, youknow, I'm gonna give Trump a
pass.
I'm not gonna give thesemembers of Congress a pass.
I'm not gonna give these, youknow, I'm gonna vote for these
ballot measures.
Like, so for example, we have avery big chapter in Arizona.
We spent millions of dollars inArizona on the ballot measure,
on the Senate race, and on thepresidential.
We have folks who definitelyvoted for the ballot measure.
(28:23):
They voted for Ruben Gallego,and then they voted for Donald
Trump.
So, like, what the hellhappened?
So we did focus groups instates where we saw those
dynamics.
And the number one thing weheard was I didn't know
necessarily about how bad thingswere with abortion in my state.
I thought in the ballot measurestates, I'm voting for the
ballot measure to protectmyself.
In the non-ballot measurestates, it was like I didn't
(28:44):
think it was that bad.
Because, you know, folks don'tthink about it necessarily
unless there's an active crisisin their face, right?
Until you need to.
Um, or a multi-million dollarcampaign educating them like
about it, which was happening inthe ballot measure states.
And they believed two thingsabout Donald Trump.
They believed he meant it whenhe said leave it to the states,
and they believed he didn'treally care about it.
There's a couple of lessonsfrom that.
(29:05):
We've got to penetrate theinformation gap, the voter
education gap.
We have to point out thatwhatever Donald Trump says, the
Republican Party is not leavingit to the states through all of
these different mechanisms we'retalking about, FDA, the courts,
etc.
And then we have to point outthat Donald Trump himself
actually hates women.
(29:27):
And we got to keep remindingAmericans of that.
I think they intellectuallyknow it, but emotionally it
doesn't stick because Trump is aonce-in-a-lifetime type of
leader for them.
And he encapsulates, it's hardfor us to stomach or believe,
but he encapsulates a lot ofhopes and dreams of a very
disaffected, marginalized groupof Republican voters who have
captured that party, and itmeans something to them.
(29:49):
But when they see things likeJeffrey Epstein, the fact that
that Jeffrey Epstein thing wasthe first thing to crack the
MAGA base was like, I was like,we gotta go there.
We've got a weaponize thatthing because that helps us
explain that he hates you, andhe hates the people you love.
And that was so we're gonna bedoing a lot more there because I
(30:11):
don't know why that's the thingthat broke them.
I mean, I have theories, and wecould talk more about that, but
it is the thing.
They love a good conspiracy,and it is the thing that they
believed, and now they seethey're close to seeing the
reality, and um, it's anopportunity for us.
Jennie (30:28):
I could continue to talk to you for forever.
I've had so much fun talking toyou, but maybe we'll just wrap
it up with my favorite endingquestion, which is how can the
audience get involved?
What can the audience do inthis moment?
Mini (30:39):
Thank you for asking me that.
So, you know, we are amulti-platform organization.
We do a lot of good work that'sjust voter education, just
educating your friends, family,and neighbors.
We have a really strong digitalorganizing program.
You don't even have to leaveyour house.
You if are you on social mediaa lot?
Do you love to shit post?
(30:59):
Do you love to share funnymemes?
These are all ways.
What we've learned the hard wayis more Americans are getting
their information on TikTok andthrough social than they are
watching MSNBC, listening tosmart podcasts.
And we have to get to yourcircle of friends and family who
do not pay attention.
And the best way for us to doit is through innovative,
(31:19):
interesting, funny content thatbreaks down what's really
happening.
So we've been building thatplatform and that vertical in
this organization.
And we invite anyone who wantsto join us to text " REPRO" at
59791 and join our text team,join our, you know, digital
team, join our, you know,digital activist team where
(31:41):
you're just getting contentpushed to you for you to share.
And then you can take tons ofactions from your home while you
are watching your favoriteshow, while you are out to
dinner.
It's easy.
You're always looking at yourphone anyway.
We're gonna take advantage ofit.
If there's other ways you wantto be involved in the movement,
there's so much good workhappening across the movement.
You know, get involved with anabortion fund, you know, support
(32:03):
independent providers.
But also, if you just want tolike stick it to the man, like
we're a good place to start.
And we uh we do that a lot.
And part of the reason why,even though it's really
stressful right now to be inthis work, I really love it, is
despite all the hits, we'reactually winning more than we're
losing.
More Americans are stillgetting their care than anyone
(32:25):
expected.
We're winning these ballotmeasures.
Abortion as an issue is morepopular than any candidate,
Democratic or Republican.
Our brand, abortion and repro,is more popular than any
mainstream brand uh in thepolitical world.
So we're winning.
We got to remember that andjoin the fight.
Join us.
Jennie (32:45):
Mini, thank you so much for being here today.
I had so much fun talking toyou.
Mini (32:48):
Thank you, Jennie.
I really appreciate you havingme.
Jennie (32:51):
Okay, y'all.
I had such a great conversationwith Mini.
I really enjoyed talking toher.
I hope you enjoyed ourconversation.
And I will see all of you nextweek.
If you have any questions,comments, or topics you would
like us to cover, always feelfree to shoot me an email.
You can reach me atjennie@reprosfightback.com, or
(33:12):
you can find us on social media.
We're at rePROs Fight Back onFacebook and Twitter, or
@reprosfb on Instagram.
If you love our podcast andwant to make sure more people
find it, take the time to rateand review us on your favorite
podcast platform.
Or if you want to make sure tosupport the podcast, you can
also donate on our website atreprosfightback.com.
(33:33):
Thanks all.
Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, a podcast on all things
related to sexual andreproductive health, rights, and
justice.
Hi, rePROs.
How's everybody doing?
I'm your host, Jennie Wetter,and my pronouns are she/her.
So, I've been keeping a littlesecret from y'all.
The last couple weeks, whileyou have heard episodes, I have
been off in Italy on vacation,and I'm technically still on
(00:28):
vacation, but if you're hearingthis when it comes out, I am
flying back today.
But since I will be home, Ifeel okay saying that I have
been gone.
I am really looking forward tothis trip.
I've never been to Italy, andI'm very much looking forward to
seeing all the sights andeating all of the delicious food
and drinking the wine and justhaving a great time.
(00:48):
I'm going with two of mycousins and one of my aunts, and
I am just really excited tostep away from all of the things
that are happening here andjust take some time to have fun
and not think about any of it,hopefully.
So I will tell you more aboutmy vacation probably next week
(01:08):
after I have actually been backand I'm recording.
So that explains if anythinghappened the last couple weeks
that I didn't talk about.
That would be why, because Ihave not been around.
But something happened today asI'm recording this that I did
want to talk about, and that isthe passing of Jane Goodall.
I was very much of the youngcohort of young girls who really
(01:28):
grew up looking up to her.
And, you know, I was reallyinto animals and science.
And so she was just somebodythat I was really one of my
heroes when I was young.
And I followed her work growingup and through the years, read
multiple of her books, andfollowed what she was working on
(01:50):
at the time, whether it wasworking with chimps or broader
environment things, or she haddone work on education as well.
So, I really followed her overthe years, and she has led such
an amazing life.
And I really enjoyed learningmore about her as I grew up.
And like I said, she was justsuch a hero of mine.
(02:11):
So, this one is hitting alittle close to home.
I was lucky enough to see herspeak a couple times and got to
meet her one time when she wasspeaking at the Capitol, and it
just it just meant a lot to getto meet her in person and just
to get to see her, you know.
As I said, lots of heroworship.
(02:32):
I had a colleague at the time,Emily, who really pushed me to
get my picture taken with herbecause that was not something I
would have ever decided to do,and I'm really grateful she did
because I have this greatpicture of me and Jane Goodall.
And so I just this is one ofthose passings that really is
close to home because she justfelt like such a uh like always
(02:54):
there in the background, right?
Like I can't remember a timewhen I didn't know who she was
and the work she was doing.
I feel like I get a lot ofkids' books from my friends that
there's like a book called MeetJane, I think it's called, that
I've gotten for lots of kids.
That is like a little kid'sbook about Jane Goodall.
So yeah, she just did suchamazing work and uh is very
(03:18):
sorely going to be missed.
I think those are all of thebig things I want to talk about.
I mean, I don't know what'sgonna happen between when I'm
recording this and when you'llhear it, but I am very much
looking forward to my vacation,and I will tell you all about it
when I get back.
I'm looking forward to doingsome fun reading and just having
time away from all of thethings that are happening.
(03:38):
But one of those things that ishappening is this tough subject
of today's episode.
There have been lots of attackson mifepristone lately, from
attacks in the court systemthrough the FDA reviewing the
safety of it.
So we are going to talk aboutwhat is going on with
mifepristone today.
And with me, I couldn't thinkof a better person to have than
(03:59):
Mini Timmaraju with ReproductiveFreedom For All to talk to us
about what is happening.
So let's go to my interviewwith Mini.
Hi, Mini.
Thank you so much for beinghere today.
Mini (04:11):
Thanks for having me, Jennie.
It's so nice to meet y ou.
Jennie (04:14):
I'm so excited to have you on.
Before we dig into everything,do you want to take a second and
introduce yourself?
Mini (04:20):
That sounds great.
My name is Mini Timmaraju, andI am the president and CEO of
Reproductive Freedom for All,the organization formerly known
as NARAL Pro Choice America.
We're about a 55-year-oldorganization with four million
members across all 50 states.
And I've been in this jobcoming up on my four years, my
(04:43):
four-year anniversary soon.
Wow, I cannot believe it hasbeen four years already.
Yeah, it's been it's been likehaving like a wild four years,
though, right?
Yeah, but I have smallchildren, and folks say the days
are long and the years areshort.
Yeah, that's how I feel aboutthis job.
Jennie (04:59):
No, that feels exactly right.
Mini (05:02):
Like it went by like that.
Actually, my first day on thejob was just a couple of weeks
before the oral arguments in theDobbs case at the Supreme
Court.
So, that's sort of been thewhole trajectory of my
experience being back in themovement— has been very, you
know, pre-Dobbs, post-Dobbsdefined.
(05:24):
And it was one of themotivating factors for me to
come back was knowing that Dobbswas on the horizon.
Jennie (05:29):
Yeah, I mean, what a baptism by fire, right?
Like, just jump right into thedeep end.
Mini (05:34):
Super, you know what?
May as well do it the do it thehard way.
Jennie (05:40):
So, I am excited to talk to you today about what is
going on with mifepristone, butmaybe just if people aren't as
familiar, maybe we'll just liketake a quick step back and like
when we talk about mifepristone,what are we talking about?
Mini (05:53):
Yeah, we're talking about medication abortion.
Mifepristone is one part of atwo-pill medication abortion
protocol.
And it's really becomesomething that more and more
Americans know about thanks tothe extreme anti-abortion
movement's demonization ofmifepristone, right?
It's been safe and on themarket for over 20, maybe almost
(06:16):
25 years.
I should know this.
Yes, didn't we just have a 25?
Yes, it just happened.
Thank you.
I'm just gonna caveat and say Iam post-menopausal, and that is
relevant to reproductive rightsand freedom.
So, sometimes I get a littlebit of brain fog, and there's no
nothing wrong with that.
And I'm gonna talk, and that'sa future topic maybe that you
and I can have in one daybecause I'm an expert.
(06:36):
So, 25 years, of course we knowthat because I spent the whole
weekend doing press on it.
25 years of mifepristone onthe market.
That means, as many of yourlisteners understand, FDA
approval, extensive review,extensive studies, market
research in real time on themarket for 25 years.
(06:58):
But medication abortion hasbecome, you know, the the
largest accounts for themajority of abortions in this
country.
And that's meant um, that'sbeen, as a result, the reason
for a massive target on its backby opponents of abortion who um
understand that, you know,despite the Dobbs decision and
bans and restrictions in 21states, abortion rates have gone
(07:22):
up because of telemedicine andmedication abortion.
And mifepristone is critical tothat.
It's also critical tomiscarriage management, it's
also critical for other types ofhealth care and the
reproductive health care space,but it's the abortion care
that's really got our opponentsriled up and it's put it at
risk.
And because it accounts for themost abortions in this country,
(07:43):
it's dangerous that it's underthis type of attack.
Jennie (07:46):
I feel like we've seen it under attack in a couple
different ways.
Mini (07:50):
Yeah.
Jennie (07:51):
Let's start maybe with through the courts.
I know that it feels like Icould go any number of ways
here, but I think the court oneis the one we've talked about a
little bit on the podcast sofar.
So, what are we seeing?
Mini (08:02):
Probably the more realistic, the one of the many
options that's most likely.
Jennie (08:06):
Okay, so how are we seeing it attacked in courts?
Mini (08:10):
Well, it's so interesting, right?
Because it was in, it's incourt right now in Texas.
Famously, Judge MatthewKacsmaryk, uh, a case that was
brought to his court last year,went all the way to the Supreme
Court.
Alliance for HippocraticMedicine versus FDA.
Matthew Kacsmaryk is famouslyone of the most extreme judges
(08:30):
on so many issues beyondabortion rights.
Um, he's in Texas, and uhthere's a lot of forum shopping,
right?
A lot of folks have filed casesin his court because they know
he's an extremist and he's uh aone judge court, and it's been a
way for them to push throughsome really extreme, crazy laws.
That case got kicked down bythe Supreme Court based on
(08:52):
standing.
The group, Alliance forHippocratic Medicine, was
basically a group of, I like tocall them like just a group of
crackpots, you know.
There wasn't an abortionprovider among them.
It was like a dentist, right?
There was dentists?
Jennie (09:05):
A dentist.
But that's who I go to about myabortion care or post-abortion
care.
Mini (09:10):
And so, of course, the Supreme Court, despite its own
like capture by extremists,could had to say, look, look,
you don't have standing.
None of you have actually beenharmed by the availability of
medication abortion, uh, anddon't have standing to go after
the FDA.
So, fast forward, we are nowback in Kacsmaryk's court,
multiple states.
Now it's Missouri v.
(09:32):
FDA, and why would that be inTexas?
But in a startling move ofcommon sense last night,
Matthew Kacsmaryk, I'm gonna getthis wrong because I am not a
practicing attorney, butbasically made a motion to move
this whole thing to Missouriwhere it should be.
Jennie (09:47):
Oh, I missed that.
Yeah, that happened late lastnight— or late in the day last
night is when we got word of it—to move the whole dang thing to
Missouri and say that makesmore sense, not my court, but it
will allow for an equallypretty disastrous court that's
got a majority of right-wingextremists on its court and in a
circuit that's also very, veryconservative.
(10:08):
So, it's not so much betterthan Texas to the Fifth Circuit
to the Supreme Court, but itdoes, it is fascinating that we
I haven't seen a full analysisof why folks think he washed his
hands of it and threw it overto Missouri, except our
organization also works onjudicial nominees, and two of
the most extreme Josh Hawleynominees are gonna be on that
(10:29):
court.
And some of them have deep tiesto this case and this issue.
I don't know that they'll be oncourt in time.
They are still in the processof being confirmed, but they
will eventually get confirmed,and this case will eventually be
in that court, and they willeventually be on that court.
So, this is all to say that youcannot disconnect the
conversation around medication,abortion, nephew pristone from
(10:50):
the courts, from thecongressional process with
digital nominations, and howsmart and effective the anti's
have been at really infiltratingand capturing the court and
creating these bogusorganizations like Alliance for
Hippocratic Medicine in part tospecifically file these cases.
But now, in collusion withRepublican attorneys general
(11:13):
from these red states with bans,they've gotten smart.
They've realized their strategydidn't work.
I'm assuming Kacsmarykrealized, you know, the standing
issue would come back up againwith Missouri intervening in his
court and he's just gonna makeit cleaner, and they're gonna
make sure they're in a statewhere there was actually, in
their mind, harm.
But the last thing I'll say isMissouri is the state that just
(11:34):
codified a right to abortionthrough a ballot measure and
still has a Republican extremisttrifecta.
So we're not able to actuallydo what the voters asked them to
do, which is make abortionlegal.
So all of this being inMissouri, I think has really
particularly interestingpolitical ramifications that uh
we should be watching reallyclosely.
(11:55):
You got Josh Hawley, you gotthese judges, you got this court
basically poised to do exactlythe opposite of what voters in
their state said they should do,which is protect abortion care.
That was a lot.
That was a very long run-onsentence.
Sorry, Jennie.
No, that was all really good.
And it actually just made methink that wow, I haven't done
an episode focusing on just likethe courts in a while.
(12:18):
We did a number of those acouple of years ago, but it's
it's been a while.
I wonder why a couple of yearsago you did that.
What happened?
Yeah.
Well, not what changed.
Yeah, like it is it is likeworking its way through the
court system, and unfortunately,that's not the only place we're
seeing it.
It's now coming up with the FDAand looking at using the I
(12:41):
mean, you can't even call it astudy, the pseudo-science fake
paper thing.
And if people want to know moreabout what is wrong with that,
we have an episode on it.
Mini (12:52):
Words on paper that they're calling a study.
Yes.
Jennie (12:55):
Yes.
To try and challenge its FDAapproval.
Do you want to talk a littlebit about that process and where
we are right now?
Mini (13:02):
Yeah, just recently in the last few weeks, Secretary of
Health and Human Services RFKJr., a sentence that I cannot
like.
I think if I flashed, if likeif we time traveled and the old
me heard those words coming outof my mouth, they'd be like,
What the hell are you talkingabout?
Yeah.
If possible, the leastqualified secretary of HHS in
(13:23):
human history, uh Robert F.
Kennedy Jr., actually did whatwe expected him to do all along,
which was in response toRepublican attorneys general.
Also, again, this is importantthrough lines to Republican AGs,
who basically sent a letter toFDA, to the Senate, you know, to
RFK saying, hey, you know, wewant you to revisit
mifepristone.
(13:44):
We have this study, I'm doingair quotes for listeners.
We have the study that says uhthere's been harm, and we want
it's the same kind of studythat's been used in these court
cases.
So it's honestly one strategy,just different tactics, really,
which is to invalidate thesafety of mifepristone and say
it needs further review.
(14:04):
This is for a couple ofreasons.
One, you know, we know duringthe COVID pandemic, in part due
to the Biden administration'sreview, uh, FDA under the Biden
administration, that they mademifepristone available in brick
and mortar pharmacies and bymail and through telemed, in
(14:24):
part to respond to overall, youknow, shifting of access to care
for so many things to telemedand mail.
And it was after 20, almost 20years of evidence of safety.
And this is important becausenow that we're in this moment
with post-Dobbs where we havefolks in states with bans who
(14:45):
need access to care through themail and telemed, it's more
critical than ever that this isallowed to be prescribed this
way, right?
And provided this way.
So what the FDA is doing isthey're saying they're gonna
review, they're gonna reviewthat policy shift, right?
The REMs is what they'recalled.
And they're going to alsoreview whether or not the whole
(15:07):
authorization of FDA could bereversed.
Now, that is if I were to placebets, I'd say that's down the
line that the quickest, fastestthing they could do would be to
reverse those COVID-era rulesbecause that's low-hanging
fruit, right?
They don't need a lot.
The FDA process is cumbersome,but they could reverse that
(15:30):
pretty quickly.
It will take a lot longer, justbecause of their own internal
processes, to actually revokeauthorization of mifepristone
entirely.
And I think it would provoke akind of political backlash that
they are not interested in.
You've got this interestingpolitical dynamic where Donald
Trump um has been out theresaying he's not gonna mess with
(15:50):
mifepristone.
You even had Marty Makary on,the FDA commissioner on, you
know, MSNBC saying he wasn'tgoing to change this.
But they're not, nobody'sdirectly commenting on this
situation about telemed goingthrough the mail, etc.
The movement folks who work inpolitics to raise all the alarm
(16:10):
around it because it's a littlebit in the weeds, right?
Oh, you're not banning it.
You're just, it's about safety.
You know, things in the mail,they can be scary.
Maybe it's fraud.
There, they could create a lotof noise around it that would
make it harder for us topolitically fight back.
So that's why I think it'sprobably the most likely of the
(16:31):
scenarios, but it's not aslikely as the courts.
The courts are still a fasterway for them to do this.
FDA authorization opens up aton of can of worms.
When this went to SupremeCourt, we saw um business,
pharma finally, after a reallylong time weighing in and
saying, if you startpoliticizing, you know,
(16:52):
authorization and review ofmedicines, like we're never
gonna get out of this hellhole.
You know, whether it'svaccines, whether it's
medication abortion, don't gothere.
So, there's a significantbusiness interest in not letting
this happen through the FDA.
Jennie (17:07):
I think it's also just really important to note that
this is not a harmless move.
Like it would it may be hard toexplain to some people, like
you said, why getting rid ofbeing able to mail or do telemed
would be a problem.
But it's huge, huge, huge.
Mini (17:26):
It's huge because post-Dobbs, again, just to
repeat, 21 states with bans andrestrictions, folks are getting
access to care.
It's so huge that on theanniversary of Dobbs, the head
of Susan B.
Anthony list, MarjorieDannenfelser, was on Fox News
and she was getting grilled byFox News reporters saying, why
is abortion going up when youguys overturned Roe?
(17:49):
And she was like, That's why wehave to go after medication
abortion on the record, out inthe open.
That's why we gotta have to goafter shield laws.
That's why we have to go afterproviders.
That's why we have to go aftermedication abortion and telemed.
And shield laws, I'm sure youguys have talked about, are the
laws that protect theseproviders from providing care to
patients from other states,amongst other things.
So, they are highly aware thatthey are losing the war on
(18:12):
abortion, even though theyoverturn the federal protection
because people need abortion andthey want abortion care and
they're gonna get it.
And we've now created enough ofan ecosystem in this country
where folks can get it.
So, what do you do?
You're gonna go after, you'regonna, you're gonna try to
institute a backdoor abortionban that would ban the most
(18:33):
accessible way to access care instates that have protected
abortion care, like Californiaand New York.
So it's extremely dangerous.
It would have devastatingconsequences and ripple effects
and would effectively banabortion in the majority of the
country, including in stateswhere we have legal protection
for abortion.
Jennie (18:48):
Yeah, and I think it's just so important to point that
out because you may think you'reokay in a state where abortion
is protected, but if people arehaving to physically go to
clinics to get access, andthat's gonna make it much harder
to get access in your statebecause people are having to
travel to that state to get carewhere they were previously able
(19:09):
to be mailed care viatelemedicine.
So it we cannot absorb all ofthose people into the system we
currently have.
Mini (19:17):
And there's time limitations, right?
Every state are different.
Medication abortion is oftenthe fastest.
You can do it early inpregnancy.
You know, can you imagine theimpact it would have on the
clinics that have to do surgicalabortion care?
I mean, it would be it'salready debilitating.
Over 50% of all abortions inthis country are through
medication abortion preciselyfor this reason. We do not have
(19:39):
the infrastructure to takethese, all these patients in
through clinics.
It is just not possible.
Also, it's just a way for youto manage your own abortion in a
dignified way where you controlit.
I mean, which has beenlife-changing for so many people
who've needed this care.
I mean, apparently, this FDAand this HHS has very little
(20:01):
regard for pregnant people, hasvery little regard to spreading
massive disinformation aboutvaccines, Tylenol, you name it,
things that pregnant people andbabies need.
So it's not shocking that thisis the route that they would go,
but it's also, again, I makethe earlier point.
It is horrible.
It is harder to explain tovoters.
(20:21):
Right.
Crack.
It is harder to break through.
And we already had a challengelast year in breaking through to
voters on this because Trumpvery effectively said, I'm gonna
leave this to the states, butthis is not leaving it to the
states.
This is a way, though, ofbaiting and switching the
American people that youpromised you weren't gonna mess
with this.
And that's what thisadministration is doing.
Jennie (20:42):
Well, I also there's like a new crisis every, I mean,
not even every day anymore.
It's like every couple ofhours.
So, like trying to get peopleto keep track of things that are
happening is so hard.
Mini (20:55):
It's really hard right now to break through to anybody on
any of this.
We are an organizingorganization, organizing first.
What that means is, you know,we spend a tremendous amount of
time like training ourvolunteers and our members to
talk to their friends,neighbors, community members, to
reach out to the members ofCongress, to go to the lobby in
their state capitals.
And we have a very loyal,committed base of repro
(21:18):
activists, but even they willcome to meetings and be like,
okay, but there's ICE on mystreet.
You know, my neighbor gotkidnapped.
You know, I can't get my COVIDvaccine.
In my neighborhood, in the DCsuburbs, like half of my
neighborhood's been laid off.
We are in a government shutdowncurrently.
You know, there is so muchchaos that even our own
(21:39):
activists who cared the mostabout this are drowning in the
devastation that thisadministration has wrought on
our day-to-day lives, tariffs,you know, all of it.
It's chaotic.
So, what we've found is we justhave to be relentless about how
much how aggressive we are withspreading this information.
(22:00):
And we have to create as manyopportunities as possible for
activism and accountabilityaround them.
Um, so there's like no thingtoo small to shout out about
this administration, whetherit's medication, abortion, the
Tylenol stuff.
But it's also about thingslike, you know, Costco declining
to carry mifepristone.
We're organizing our memberswho are Costco members.
(22:22):
You've got to have as manytouch points as possible when
you're organizing so that you'recontinually keeping this in the
dialogue because otherwiseyou're not breaking through.
And we we know there's gonna besome fatigue, but at the end of
the day, we have to find asmany ways as possible to get
people to see how it's relevantto their day-to-day life.
And that's the big challengewe're having in this moment.
Jennie (22:43):
I thought one of the things that like jumped out at
me uh among all of thehorribleness with the Tylenol
situation is how often do we usethe the the talking point of
like Miphipristone is the safestTylenol?
Like it that is like one of thefirst things that jumped out at
me.
Mini (23:01):
So literally— and Jessica Valenti, I think, did a whole
piece on this, it was so good—but literally as soon as it
happened, three people in myoffice were like, well, that's
because I mean, it can't bebecause we've been saying safer
than Tylenol.
It's like it's been a hundredpercent part of it.
I'm sure, I mean, why wouldthey go after Tylenol and not
just say versus acetaminophil,right?
(23:22):
Besides the fact that PresidentTrump can't say it.
There was that.
But why specifically Tylenoland not like all the other drugs
that also have elements ofacetaminophil in them,
acetaminophen plus, you know,there's so many medications.
So it was pretty wild.
And I do think that it showsthat while conventional
(23:45):
arguments of like a conventionalRepublican administration would
not pick a fight with a majorpharmaceutical company and a
brand, this administrationdoesn't give a shit.
Can I say that on your show?
Jennie (23:56):
That's fine.
Mini (23:58):
Doesn't give a shit.
They don't, they are inrelentless pursuit of
distraction, and I think that isa classic RFK, like, crazyism.
Like, oh, see, the benefit isbad for pregnant women.
Like, is it?
We have no data, but you've gotan HHS that has pretty much
eliminated the majority of theirevidence-based scientists and
(24:21):
researchers, so he can go outand make statements like that
definitively as the head of HHS.
So, the Tylenol thing isimportant because look, it's
terrifying and it's a way toconnect to average Americans who
aren't always thinking aboutabortion and say they don't care
about pregnant people.
Connect that we gotta keepconnecting it back.
(24:41):
They don't care about you, theydon't care about the people in
your life who could be pregnant.
They have so little regard forpeople who have autism that
they're actually trying to makethis a scare tactic to scare
pregnant women from taking thismedication for alleviation of
minor symptoms, right?
They want to guilt moms whohave kids with autism.
(25:08):
I mean, and all of thosearguments are sticking in a way
that just talking about mifedoes not stick.
So we have to do all of it, butwe've got to find ways to
connect the dots.
Another thing that we've donerecently that was a little on
the edge, but we we tested itand it worked, was talking about
the Epstein files and talkingabout Trump's relationship with
(25:30):
Jeffrey Epstein and connectingthe dots between that,
Pete Hegseth's crazy stuff aboutwomen and not being able to
vote and the right, the throughline, and then the Trump
administration's actions withthe VA on abortion care.
And it tested because it testedwell because voters are like,
oh, we've got to spell it outfor them.
This is a guy who's bestieswith a serial predator himself,
(25:53):
is likely a serial predator,let's be clear.
Then he's got all these likelunatics who are misogynists in
his administration, and this isthe kind of crazy stuff they do
to you and to people you loveand respect, veterans who need
abortion care.
That's it's not, it's all partof a larger plan.
And that was the ad.
It's all part of a larger plan.
And we're testing that ad inthese congressional districts
(26:14):
where we have, you know, folkswho we have to hold accountable
and put pressure on, and we'vegot to like raise the
temperature for them on repro.
So, we're in this chaosenvironment.
We're trying to find the thingsthat are popping with the
public and then connecting itback to repro.
Jennie (26:33):
Yeah, that all makes me think of the- as we are
recording this, the speech byPete Hegseth that was going
after what women in servicetalking about getting rid of
like anonymous reporting, whichis how a lot of sexual assault
victims were reporting.
Like you could just see thatthrough line continuing.
Mini (26:53):
Yeah, in addition to making incredibly deeply, you
know, ableist and you know,phobic or fatphobic comments
about generals and military, itwas the wildest thing to me.
It was like, I appreciate thatyou're lifting up that one piece
because I think he got buriedin all the other crazy lunatic
(27:14):
things he said.
But look, it's very clear to methat Pete Hegseth being there
is not an accident.
And that, you know, I actuallyhad a very smart reporter say to
me this morning, Donald Trumpdoesn't really care about
abortion.
I'm like, he may not, but he'sa misogynist.
He may not, but he's sexist.
He may not, but he definitelyhates women.
So we got to get away from the,well, you know, he probably
(27:37):
paid for a few abortions in hisday and he doesn't care about
abortion, but he doesn't careabout you.
He doesn't care about you.
It's not even about like whatdoes he specifically care about
abortion?
He doesn't care about us.
Or puts people in place who do.
Yes, and that's not anaccident, that's a reflection on
him.
Because what we found in ourexit groups and our exit polling
(28:00):
and our focus groups post theelection was that a lot of
people were like, well, youknow, I'm gonna give Trump a
pass.
I'm not gonna give thesemembers of Congress a pass.
I'm not gonna give these, youknow, I'm gonna vote for these
ballot measures.
Like, so for example, we have avery big chapter in Arizona.
We spent millions of dollars inArizona on the ballot measure,
on the Senate race, and on thepresidential.
We have folks who definitelyvoted for the ballot measure.
(28:23):
They voted for Ruben Gallego,and then they voted for Donald
Trump.
So, like, what the hellhappened?
So we did focus groups instates where we saw those
dynamics.
And the number one thing weheard was I didn't know
necessarily about how bad thingswere with abortion in my state.
I thought in the ballot measurestates, I'm voting for the
ballot measure to protectmyself.
In the non-ballot measurestates, it was like I didn't
(28:44):
think it was that bad.
Because, you know, folks don'tthink about it necessarily
unless there's an active crisisin their face, right?
Until you need to.
Um, or a multi-million dollarcampaign educating them like
about it, which was happening inthe ballot measure states.
And they believed two thingsabout Donald Trump.
They believed he meant it whenhe said leave it to the states,
and they believed he didn'treally care about it.
There's a couple of lessonsfrom that.
(29:05):
We've got to penetrate theinformation gap, the voter
education gap.
We have to point out thatwhatever Donald Trump says, the
Republican Party is not leavingit to the states through all of
these different mechanisms we'retalking about, FDA, the courts,
etc.
And then we have to point outthat Donald Trump himself
actually hates women.
(29:27):
And we got to keep remindingAmericans of that.
I think they intellectuallyknow it, but emotionally it
doesn't stick because Trump is aonce-in-a-lifetime type of
leader for them.
And he encapsulates, it's hardfor us to stomach or believe,
but he encapsulates a lot ofhopes and dreams of a very
disaffected, marginalized groupof Republican voters who have
captured that party, and itmeans something to them.
(29:49):
But when they see things likeJeffrey Epstein, the fact that
that Jeffrey Epstein thing wasthe first thing to crack the
MAGA base was like, I was like,we gotta go there.
We've got a weaponize thatthing because that helps us
explain that he hates you, andhe hates the people you love.
And that was so we're gonna bedoing a lot more there because I
(30:11):
don't know why that's the thingthat broke them.
I mean, I have theories, and wecould talk more about that, but
it is the thing.
They love a good conspiracy,and it is the thing that they
believed, and now they seethey're close to seeing the
reality, and um, it's anopportunity for us.
Jennie (30:28):
I could continue to talk to you for forever.
I've had so much fun talking toyou, but maybe we'll just wrap
it up with my favorite endingquestion, which is how can the
audience get involved?
What can the audience do inthis moment?
Mini (30:39):
Thank you for asking me that.
So, you know, we are amulti-platform organization.
We do a lot of good work that'sjust voter education, just
educating your friends, family,and neighbors.
We have a really strong digitalorganizing program.
You don't even have to leaveyour house.
You if are you on social mediaa lot?
Do you love to shit post?
(30:59):
Do you love to share funnymemes?
These are all ways.
What we've learned the hard wayis more Americans are getting
their information on TikTok andthrough social than they are
watching MSNBC, listening tosmart podcasts.
And we have to get to yourcircle of friends and family who
do not pay attention.
And the best way for us to doit is through innovative,
(31:19):
interesting, funny content thatbreaks down what's really
happening.
So we've been building thatplatform and that vertical in
this organization.
And we invite anyone who wantsto join us to text " REPRO" at
59791 and join our text team,join our, you know, digital
team, join our, you know,digital activist team where
(31:41):
you're just getting contentpushed to you for you to share.
And then you can take tons ofactions from your home while you
are watching your favoriteshow, while you are out to
dinner.
It's easy.
You're always looking at yourphone anyway.
We're gonna take advantage ofit.
If there's other ways you wantto be involved in the movement,
there's so much good workhappening across the movement.
You know, get involved with anabortion fund, you know, support
(32:03):
independent providers.
But also, if you just want tolike stick it to the man, like
we're a good place to start.
And we uh we do that a lot.
And part of the reason why,even though it's really
stressful right now to be inthis work, I really love it, is
despite all the hits, we'reactually winning more than we're
losing.
More Americans are stillgetting their care than anyone
(32:25):
expected.
We're winning these ballotmeasures.
Abortion as an issue is morepopular than any candidate,
Democratic or Republican.
Our brand, abortion and repro,is more popular than any
mainstream brand uh in thepolitical world.
So we're winning.
We got to remember that andjoin the fight.
Join us.
Jennie (32:45):
Mini, thank you so much for being here today.
I had so much fun talking toyou.
Mini (32:48):
Thank you, Jennie.
I really appreciate you havingme.
Jennie (32:51):
Okay, y'all.
I had such a great conversationwith Mini.
I really enjoyed talking toher.
I hope you enjoyed ourconversation.
And I will see all of you nextweek.
If you have any questions,comments, or topics you would
like us to cover, always feelfree to shoot me an email.
You can reach me atjennie@reprosfightback.com, or
(33:12):
you can find us on social media.
We're at rePROs Fight Back onFacebook and Twitter, or
@reprosfb on Instagram.
If you love our podcast andwant to make sure more people
find it, take the time to rateand review us on your favorite
podcast platform.
Or if you want to make sure tosupport the podcast, you can
also donate on our website atreprosfightback.com.
(33:33):
Thanks all.
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