May 11, 2023 • 24 mins
This episode discusses why it's not a good idea to get sibling dogs as puppies (but why it does work for cats) and what happens typically when people do tackle this issue.
Original music by Matt Setter and friend Sean!
Original content by Matt Setter and friend, Sean!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Pate (00:00):
Hey, this is Pate.
jme (00:01):
And I'm Jme.
Pate (00:02):
And we are Motley Zoo Animal Rescue, and we are
talking about Rescue Shit.
jme (00:07):
This episode we're going to talk about litter mate syndrome.
Litter mate syndrome is when youadopt two siblings, dogs, or a
parent in an offspring or buythem because a breeder told you
that was a good idea, which istypically what happens.
They start fighting at somepoint.
It stops being, fun family, andit starts being a fight.
(00:31):
And the competition for, who'sgonna be Alpha, can be pretty
serious.
One of them is winning and oneof them is losing, or they are
getting injured and the familyis forced to look at the fact
that they cannot keep both dogs.
They must get rid of one.
Why don't you explain litter atesyndrome a little bit more.
Pate (00:52):
Even though we don't use alpha and dominance anymore as
terms in dog family units.
The reality is, is that thereare definitely dominance issues
with dogs and they establish ahierarchy, kind of like you do
with your sibling, and sometimesyou and your sibling are going
(01:15):
to fight.
I know my sister and I did okay.
I was a brat.
But we don't live togetheranymore.
We get along great now.
But not having to live togetherdefinitely helps with that.
jme (01:28):
A lot of times people, when they wanna adopt puppies from
us, they say,"Oh, I can'tchoose.
Can I take them both"?
And we say,"Absolutely not".
And my way of explaining it is Isay,"Oh, do you have siblings"?
And they say,"Yes".
And I said,"Would you wanna livewith your brother?
Forever?
And ever.
And ever and ever"?
(01:49):
And they look at me withterrified looks, wide eyes.
And I said,"Yes, the dogs don'twanna live with their siblings
or parents forever and evereither".
And we will never really knowwho they are supposed to become
if they never leave theirsibling because they live within
the dynamic of the family andnot up to their own
(02:11):
individualistic personalities.
Pate (02:13):
Right.
And then the thing with puppies,and I get asked this a lot, is,
"What is that puppy'spersonality"?
There's no true personality atthat age.
You've got some genetic makeupthat's going to kind of help
with the foundation, but thenthe environment is going to
affect how that dog grows.
(02:34):
And if you keep them within alitter dynamic, you're going to
have a dominant puppy, and thenyou're going to have an
appeasement puppy.
I call'em Omegas, even thoughwe're not using Alpha Omega
anymore, it's just easier.
So you're gonna have yourdominant puppy who's an Alpha,
and then you're gonna have yourless, dominant dog who gets beat
(02:58):
up all the time.
And that's gonna be your Omegapuppy.
And if that Omega at one point,decides that, it's done being
the scapegoat, then you're gonnahave two dogs vying for
dominance.
And that can be brutal fights.
We're talking stitches, a lot ofblood.
(03:19):
And is, it is very, very common.
And people will say,"Oh, theygot along great and then now
they're nine months old andthey're ripping into each
other".
jme (03:32):
People say nature or nurture, but it's really nature,
nurture, and personality.
And what if the one puppydoesn't wanna get beat up on?
And we have two dominantpersonalities and they're just
never gonna stop.
And that's why we have to splitpuppies up at a certain age
because they start fighting witheach other.
Pate (03:52):
Mm-hmm.
jme (03:52):
And it's not funny anymore.
It's not playful, it's not cute.
We have to separate them and putthem in different foster homes
so that they don't fight,because that can become a habit.
We don't want that to become ahabit, but the problem really
escalates when you have two dogswith similar personalities that
are vying for the top position.
Pate (04:14):
Mm-hmm.
jme (04:14):
And that's when it gets really rough.
And we actually had a situationlike that in one of our clients
where they bought two BostonTerrier puppies because the
breeder told them that was agood idea.
Pate (04:26):
Mm-hmm.
jme (04:27):
And they started fighting really badly.
They brought them to trainingand we...
Pate (04:31):
They had to wear muzzles.
jme (04:32):
Yes.
They had to wear muzzles becausewe couldn't trust that they
weren't gonna attack other dogstoo.
And they were still fightingwith each other.
So we worked with them ontraining and they did get
better.
They got a lot better.
But this is a lifelong dynamic.
This would be lifelongmanagement of this situation and
(04:53):
the family actually had torehome one of the dogs.
And at first it was not workingout very well because the dog
kept attacking the other dog.
You have to try and avoid thiswhen possible and nip it in the
bud immediately when you see it.
Pate (05:08):
Yes.
And then there are of coursetimes that siblings will Get
along, which is the exception tothe rule, not the rule.
The exception.
And we did make one exception atone point with one of our
puppies, Dusty and his sister,Darla.
(05:31):
And everyone wanted this puppybecause I took great pictures.
No, she was just a gorgeouspuppy and everyone fell in love
with her.
And then Dusty, he's our specialboy.
He had neurological issues.
And, he was never gonna bedominant.
He was never gonna be Omega, hewas never gonna be any kind of
label because he was aneurologic dog who just lived in
(05:54):
his own little world, you know?
And we didn't know his lifespanbecause of his medical issues.
And so we actually adopted themtogether because of the fact
that we didn't know how longhe'd be there and he wouldn't do
your typical litter matesyndrome.
jme (06:16):
Well, and he really bonded with her and sometimes they are
really good friends with some oftheir siblings and sometimes
they're not.
But we really looked at thissituation.
Pate (06:25):
Mm-hmm.
jme (06:25):
Very, very carefully.
And we don't typically makeexceptions, but we did.
The family is amazing.
They came all the way fromAlaska.
Pate (06:33):
Mm-hmm.
jme (06:33):
Actually to adopt those dogs.
And we're still in touch withthem.
Yes.
They actually visited over thesummer and I saw them and it was
really amazing.
So we know that those dogs aredoing well, but we would also
expect that if they weren't,which we warned them about..
Pate (06:47):
Mm-hmm.
That they would tell us and wewould be able to help them work
through it.
Right.
And then that is the exceptionto the rule that sometimes they
will bond, but then sometimesthe problem is the opposite.
They bond so strongly to eachother that they don't care about
you.
jme (07:02):
That is the other problem is that people forget that even
if they do get along, they aregoing to bond to the dog first.
They are gonna listen to eachother.
They're not gonna listen to you.
And if you don't take them outindividually and treat them as
individuals with differentpersonalities, take them on
walks at different times.
You can't treat twin childrenlike one unit.
Pate (07:24):
Please stop dressing them the same.
jme (07:26):
You do have to recognize that they have different
personalities and that you needto spend time with them
one-on-one.
Somehow, when it's the dogs,people don't think that maybe
they're trying to get, you know,away with, well, they have a
companion and...
And they can play with eachother.
They can play with each other,which is great, but it is not a
replacement for you having agood, solid situation with your
(07:46):
dogs.
And the other problem thathappens is that the dogs become
codependent on each other.
Pate (07:51):
Mm-hmm.
jme (07:52):
What happens when one dies and the other is left without
them?
Pate (07:55):
That's happened too, sadly.
jme (07:57):
When we're talking about puppy personalities, they are
essentially moldable clay.
And there is a test you can doat around seven weeks called the
temperament test, and you dothings like bang pots and hold
them on their back and you testtheir responses to certain
things, and this can help giveyou a clue as to whether or not
(08:21):
they are going to have certainproblems in the future.
But there is no guarantee.
And so when people ask us aboutpersonalities, we have to tell
them they really don't have apersonality yet.
Pate (08:33):
Mm-hmm.
They don't, they're like Jmesaid, they're moldable clay.
In this family unit, the waythey act with each other is not
their personality.
Cuz you can take that dominantpuppy who has been beating up on
all of the siblings, who thinkshe's so cocky and he's in
control of everything.
You take him out of his comfortzone, which is his younger
(08:54):
siblings put him in a newenvironment.
There may be another dog in thehouse.
There may be kids in the house,cats, et cetera, that he's not
used to, and that dominant,cocky puppy now becomes a
chicken.
jme (09:11):
Or fear, aggressive, which would be worse.
Fear often is the root ofaggressive behavior.
Pate (09:17):
Mm-hmm.
jme (09:18):
And so sometimes that strong dominance with their
siblings becomes like thatintensive fear and insecurity
when they're alone.
Pate (09:28):
Right.
jme (09:28):
They only know how to be big fish.
Little pond.
Pate (09:31):
Exactly.
And then you get them in theocean and they're overwhelmed.
And then on the flip side, youcan get that little puppy, the
one who gets picked on all thetime, the one that you think
might be timid, the one whohides behind his mom, and you
get that puppy into your home,all of a sudden the puppy's not
(09:53):
getting beat up on by itssiblings and it becomes super
confident and it's outgoing andthings like that.
jme (10:01):
The same thing seems to happen at the shelter sometimes
where the dog that is thequietest, hiding under the bed
is the one that becomes thetotal like crazy man...
(maniac) when they get home andthe one that's barking their
head off gets home and they'relike, oh, this is a living room?
I totally get this.
And they go jump on the couchand they sit down quietly and
you never hear from them.
Pate (10:21):
Mm-hmm.
Kennel stress.
jme (10:24):
Since it is so hard to tell a puppy's personality, it's hard
to know if the puppy will be adog that's going to do a job for
someone later.
So this is the same reason thatwhen people are looking for
emotional support animals orservice animals, and they say,"I
want this puppy".
We have to explain to them thatthat is not how it works at all,
(10:47):
and they need an adult dog.
Pate (10:50):
Right.
So what are you looking for in apuppy?
If you're looking for a specificservice, specific task, you
realize that actual servicedogs, first, they are thousands
of dollars.
And the reason why the thousandsof dollars is because they are
trained to perform certain tasksfor a disability.
jme (11:14):
But 50% of the dogs that go into training fail and they do
not become service dogs.
And that is because of theirpersonality.
Because no matter what you do,they are not dogs that want a
job.
They are not dogs that are gonnasit calmly.
They cannot do it.
And I equate this to when, whenpeople tell us they want a puppy
(11:35):
as a service dog.
I'm like, do you have kids?
And they'll say, yeah.
And I'm like, are you certainthat your three-year-old is
gonna become an astronaut andyour five year old is going to
be the next piano virtuoso?
And they just look at me and I'mlike,"Neither do we know that
this puppy is gonna have theright personality to be a
(11:55):
service dog.
We cannot put a job on thembefore we know who they are".
It doesn't necessarily take solong to train the dogs.
It takes that long for them togrow up and find out what their
personalities are like.
They don't even start assessingor testing them to be service
dogs until they're a year and ahalf or two years old.
Pate (12:14):
They are learning to be themselves while they're
training for certain tasks.
So when I was younger, I wantedto be a vet and then I learned
that you had to cut animals openand that kind of grossed me out.
So that didn't happen.
And that's gonna, and that's apersonality thing, is I was dead
(12:38):
set.
I'm in third grade, I'm gonnaget myself a basenji, which I
did- and I was gonna be a vet,which I did not.
And then I was gonna be a marinebiologist and I did not.
And then I was gonna be a modelslash, I was gonna be the new
Gabrielle Reese.
jme (12:57):
Hmm.
Pate (12:57):
Volleyball player and a model.
Well, freshman year in college,I totally screwed up my ankle.
And then that didn't happeneither.
And that's the same thing with aservice animal.
You don't know what's gonnahappen.
They may start loving to betrained at six months.
By nine months, they're gettinga little bit older and they're
(13:18):
like, Hmm, this is boring, I'mnot into it.
12 months, they're like, Hmm, ohlook, a chicken.
No, you're supposed to befocused mister.
And he's like, no, I'm gonna gochase that chicken.
And that is the reason why evenwhen they are bred to do a job,
just become well trainedcompanion animals.
jme (13:37):
Yeah.
50% of the time.
Pate (13:39):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
jme (13:40):
Do you remember the woman that was fostering a puppy and
said that she wanted it to beher service dog?
And we gave her that speech andyears later she came back and
wanted to foster a different dogand said it didn't work out and
her puppy didn't turn out to bethe, service dog that she
thought.
I mean, thankfully she kept it
Pate (14:00):
Mm-hmm.
jme (14:01):
Because we, we lectured her really hard on that one...
Pate (14:03):
Right.
Yeah.
jme (14:04):
But basically she was trying again, and she wanted to
try again with another...
Pate (14:08):
Another puppy.
jme (14:08):
Puppy, yeah.
And I was just like, wow, okay.
This, this isn't working at all.
Pate (14:13):
And then there was a lady who actually was going through
service dog training who got aDoberman puppy to be her
mobility dog.
And I'm like, mm.
Dobermans.
Not really are that adept atthat kind of thing.
And he he was scared to gothrough doors and remember how
(14:39):
long it took to train him to gothrough doors, and she kind of
gave up.
jme (14:46):
That's not a dog that was gonna be a service dog.
We didn't know he was gonna bean astronaut or not.
Pate (14:52):
Mm-hmm.
jme (14:52):
He turned into who he turned into.
And so when we talk aboutpuppies, we talk about nature
nurture, and that's why you canhave puppies come out different.
Pate (15:01):
Mm-hmm.
jme (15:02):
And then personality.
And do you really want to putthat responsibility on a puppy
so early on?
Like, don't you want your dog tobe happy and if you put a job on
them that they are not gonnalike, you're not making them
happy.
It's setting up the situation toend poorly.
What you see is what you get inan adult dog.
(15:23):
And you might have someinformation about their history,
their experiences, but they aregonna behave like they're gonna
behave and...
Pate (15:32):
Right.
You're either gonna know thatthey want a job, that they have
to have a job like Niall, thePumi, he needs a job.
jme (15:41):
Lots of dogs need jobs.
But yeah, other dogs don't wanta job at all.
Pate (15:45):
No.
They, they just want to hang outand be a mooch who just loves
treats and to hang out with you.
jme (15:53):
Well, and they just wanna be...
Pate (15:54):
And Netflix and chill.
jme (15:55):
They just wanna be dogs.
Pate (15:56):
Right.
jme (15:57):
We don't want people to set up a puppy to have a job that it
just isn't gonna want to have orbe happy with.
Pate (16:02):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
jme (16:03):
When people contact us to surrender one of the litter
mates, we have to find out whichone is the aggressor and which
one isn't.
Because there's a chance thatthe aggressor is going to become
aggressive in the new home.
Pate (16:16):
Because they've already learned that behavior and that
they can get away with that.
jme (16:19):
Which is what happened with our client dog.
The dog learned that behaviorand the aggressor was the one
that left.
We were not consulted about thateither, so just so you know, we
would've helped them,(right) butwe weren't asked to help.
So we find out what's going onand who the aggressor is
typically, and then, we rehomethe one that is being beat up
(16:40):
on.
Pate (16:41):
The quote unquote easier dog.
It's easier, a more adoptabledog, the the one that you let
go.
Unfortunately, it's going to bethe easier one because that is
the one that will probably bemore successful in a new home,
whereas the aggressor, the moredifficult dog.
jme (17:01):
And the longer it's gone on, it becomes more of a habit
and that's how they think theworld functions.
And it's not
Pate (17:09):
So they take a little bit more work.
And since you, you already knowthem, you already love them.
You are going to be more willingto work on this behavior to make
them be a better dog than astranger to them.
jme (17:22):
Yes.
And that's the same thing whenpeople contact us for the old
dog or the puppy.
My old dog doesn't like mypuppy.
Well, we're gonna rehome...
Pate (17:31):
The puppy
jme (17:32):
let's talk about that dog.
That's not where people want togo.
Pate (17:35):
Mm-hmm.
jme (17:36):
They don't like that.
Somehow the dog that is doingthe problem thing it becomes
like the less favorite child.
Pate (17:43):
Right.
jme (17:44):
And they see that as getting rid of the problem.
Pate (17:47):
Mm-hmm.
jme (17:47):
But no one wants your problem.
No one else wants your problem.
So you get to keep the problem.
And in litter mate syndrome,when you take the dogs out of
that situation, you take oneaway, a lot of the behavior that
you may not like is going to goaway.
Pate (18:01):
Right.
And then you have one dog that'snot fighting that you can work
on, and we have more belief thatit's gonna get along with other
dogs in the future, right?
Mm-hmm.
So once you have this puppy, you train it, and when
it's an adult and trained andsocialized, then you can
(18:24):
introduce a puppy into the homeif you want to be a multi dog
home.
We always recommend when you geta puppy that you take that puppy
and you train it because if youtrain it well, when you
introduce a new puppy to it,probably like around two years
old or so, you've got a verywell-trained dog who's gonna
help train that puppy.
jme (18:47):
Yes.
That's another thing about it isthat we don't want two puppies
training each other.
Pate (18:52):
It's a nightmare.
jme (18:53):
It is a nightmare and a lot of times people are, well, we're
going to gonna get another puppyin a year so that they can be
friends.
Just, just work on the dog thatyou have.
Just work on this dog.
Pate (19:03):
Let that personality develop before you throw like a
rock and it ripples instead ofbeing flat and smooth.
jme (19:09):
Well, because you're not gonna know their personality,
you're not gonna know which doggets along well with them
either.
So it, it all goes back to thesame thing is that we have to
let the puppies grow up anddevelop.
They need to be able to sleepalone.
They need to be able to bewithout each other.
They need to be able to listento you and you have to treat
them as individuals.
Pate (19:28):
Right.
jme (19:29):
And if you do that, then you are mitigating some of the
chances of these thingshappening.
But you have to work that muchharder at making sure you do
that.
Pate (19:39):
Yeah.
It's going to be a lot more timeconsuming because you're gonna
have to do things individuallysuccessfully.
More often than not, it's gonnahave to be on an individual
basis.
Say you take Frank to classes onSaturday and then you take
Gerard to classes on Sunday, andthat helps mitigate that.
(20:03):
If you take him to classestogether, they're gonna look at
each other, want to play witheach other and not listen to
you.
So it's double trouble.
We talked about litter matesyndrome with dogs however, with
cats, that's a different story.
jme (20:16):
With cats, the opposite is really true.
It's better to adopt them outtogether in pairs because they
are bonded at that moment andcats are harder to introduce new
members of the family to lateron in life.
And so when you adopt them outtogether, they tend to do better
together.
Pate (20:36):
Right.
The opposite is true with catsand it's called single kitten
syndrome, or also known asTarzan Syndrome because they are
wild childs.
jme (20:50):
So that's if you only have one kitten.
If you only have one kitten,they don't have anyone else to
bite and scratch and beat it upon, and they treat you like
their playmate and they becomebitey and difficult.
And honestly, sometimes peoplewanna give up on their kittens
because they have become littletarzans and those cats, if they
(21:11):
don't get playmates, if theydon't get an outlet with a dog
they are likely to be bitey,scratchy cats when they get
older.
And I actually experienced thatwith my cat Refugee.
She came in as a stowaway in atransport wasn't on the
manifest, and Pate held her upand was like, oh my gosh, look
(21:32):
at this cat.
It had one eye bulging andwhite, and it looked like a
little bat.
And she did not look like shewas gonna live.
Pate (21:39):
Mm-mmm.
jme (21:40):
Even a day.
But I took her home and I nursedher.
And then I realized after a fewdays, this cat is actually
really strong.
But I called her Refugee becauseshe was the stowaway.
But...
Pate (21:51):
And you thought she was a boy.
jme (21:53):
I did think she was a boy.
That's a whole other story.
As she grew up, she started toget really bitey and like really
outta hand.
I mean, I've handled a lot ofdifferent kinds of cats and I
was like, wow, this cat, it's,five weeks old and it's just a
terror.
I had to borrow some littermates from a litter.
(22:15):
So we split up a differentlitter, and they'd all been
through quarantine, so we knewthey were healthy.
We split up a different litterand gave Refugee some siblings.
And for the first two days shejust sat in the corner and
growled at them and their playplaying and she's just, and then
(22:35):
she started playing with themand she started attacking them.
Really hard, And she thoughtthis was great.
They didn't correct her and soshe was just beating the crap
out of them.
And finally size became moreapparent and personalities
became more apparent, and shewas put in her place.
(22:56):
But she would be a different cattoday if it weren't for me
making sure that she had somesiblings to play with to get
that aggression out.
Otherwise, it would still becoming out on me.
We could go on and on for a longtime...
Pate (23:08):
And on!
jme (23:09):
About some of this stuff, but we have run out of time for
now.
I'm Jme.
Pate (23:14):
I'm Pate.
jme (23:15):
Rock On.
Pate (23:16):
Rescue on.
Hey, this is Pate.
jme (00:01):
And I'm Jme.
Pate (00:02):
And we are Motley Zoo Animal Rescue, and we are
talking about Rescue Shit.
jme (00:07):
This episode we're going to talk about litter mate syndrome.
Litter mate syndrome is when youadopt two siblings, dogs, or a
parent in an offspring or buythem because a breeder told you
that was a good idea, which istypically what happens.
They start fighting at somepoint.
It stops being, fun family, andit starts being a fight.
(00:31):
And the competition for, who'sgonna be Alpha, can be pretty
serious.
One of them is winning and oneof them is losing, or they are
getting injured and the familyis forced to look at the fact
that they cannot keep both dogs.
They must get rid of one.
Why don't you explain litter atesyndrome a little bit more.
Pate (00:52):
Even though we don't use alpha and dominance anymore as
terms in dog family units.
The reality is, is that thereare definitely dominance issues
with dogs and they establish ahierarchy, kind of like you do
with your sibling, and sometimesyou and your sibling are going
(01:15):
to fight.
I know my sister and I did okay.
I was a brat.
But we don't live togetheranymore.
We get along great now.
But not having to live togetherdefinitely helps with that.
jme (01:28):
A lot of times people, when they wanna adopt puppies from
us, they say,"Oh, I can'tchoose.
Can I take them both"?
And we say,"Absolutely not".
And my way of explaining it is Isay,"Oh, do you have siblings"?
And they say,"Yes".
And I said,"Would you wanna livewith your brother?
Forever?
And ever.
And ever and ever"?
(01:49):
And they look at me withterrified looks, wide eyes.
And I said,"Yes, the dogs don'twanna live with their siblings
or parents forever and evereither".
And we will never really knowwho they are supposed to become
if they never leave theirsibling because they live within
the dynamic of the family andnot up to their own
(02:11):
individualistic personalities.
Pate (02:13):
Right.
And then the thing with puppies,and I get asked this a lot, is,
"What is that puppy'spersonality"?
There's no true personality atthat age.
You've got some genetic makeupthat's going to kind of help
with the foundation, but thenthe environment is going to
affect how that dog grows.
(02:34):
And if you keep them within alitter dynamic, you're going to
have a dominant puppy, and thenyou're going to have an
appeasement puppy.
I call'em Omegas, even thoughwe're not using Alpha Omega
anymore, it's just easier.
So you're gonna have yourdominant puppy who's an Alpha,
and then you're gonna have yourless, dominant dog who gets beat
(02:58):
up all the time.
And that's gonna be your Omegapuppy.
And if that Omega at one point,decides that, it's done being
the scapegoat, then you're gonnahave two dogs vying for
dominance.
And that can be brutal fights.
We're talking stitches, a lot ofblood.
(03:19):
And is, it is very, very common.
And people will say,"Oh, theygot along great and then now
they're nine months old andthey're ripping into each
other".
jme (03:32):
People say nature or nurture, but it's really nature,
nurture, and personality.
And what if the one puppydoesn't wanna get beat up on?
And we have two dominantpersonalities and they're just
never gonna stop.
And that's why we have to splitpuppies up at a certain age
because they start fighting witheach other.
Pate (03:52):
Mm-hmm.
jme (03:52):
And it's not funny anymore.
It's not playful, it's not cute.
We have to separate them and putthem in different foster homes
so that they don't fight,because that can become a habit.
We don't want that to become ahabit, but the problem really
escalates when you have two dogswith similar personalities that
are vying for the top position.
Pate (04:14):
Mm-hmm.
jme (04:14):
And that's when it gets really rough.
And we actually had a situationlike that in one of our clients
where they bought two BostonTerrier puppies because the
breeder told them that was agood idea.
Pate (04:26):
Mm-hmm.
jme (04:27):
And they started fighting really badly.
They brought them to trainingand we...
Pate (04:31):
They had to wear muzzles.
jme (04:32):
Yes.
They had to wear muzzles becausewe couldn't trust that they
weren't gonna attack other dogstoo.
And they were still fightingwith each other.
So we worked with them ontraining and they did get
better.
They got a lot better.
But this is a lifelong dynamic.
This would be lifelongmanagement of this situation and
(04:53):
the family actually had torehome one of the dogs.
And at first it was not workingout very well because the dog
kept attacking the other dog.
You have to try and avoid thiswhen possible and nip it in the
bud immediately when you see it.
Pate (05:08):
Yes.
And then there are of coursetimes that siblings will Get
along, which is the exception tothe rule, not the rule.
The exception.
And we did make one exception atone point with one of our
puppies, Dusty and his sister,Darla.
(05:31):
And everyone wanted this puppybecause I took great pictures.
No, she was just a gorgeouspuppy and everyone fell in love
with her.
And then Dusty, he's our specialboy.
He had neurological issues.
And, he was never gonna bedominant.
He was never gonna be Omega, hewas never gonna be any kind of
label because he was aneurologic dog who just lived in
(05:54):
his own little world, you know?
And we didn't know his lifespanbecause of his medical issues.
And so we actually adopted themtogether because of the fact
that we didn't know how longhe'd be there and he wouldn't do
your typical litter matesyndrome.
jme (06:16):
Well, and he really bonded with her and sometimes they are
really good friends with some oftheir siblings and sometimes
they're not.
But we really looked at thissituation.
Pate (06:25):
Mm-hmm.
jme (06:25):
Very, very carefully.
And we don't typically makeexceptions, but we did.
The family is amazing.
They came all the way fromAlaska.
Pate (06:33):
Mm-hmm.
jme (06:33):
Actually to adopt those dogs.
And we're still in touch withthem.
Yes.
They actually visited over thesummer and I saw them and it was
really amazing.
So we know that those dogs aredoing well, but we would also
expect that if they weren't,which we warned them about..
Pate (06:47):
Mm-hmm.
That they would tell us and wewould be able to help them work
through it.
Right.
And then that is the exceptionto the rule that sometimes they
will bond, but then sometimesthe problem is the opposite.
They bond so strongly to eachother that they don't care about
you.
jme (07:02):
That is the other problem is that people forget that even
if they do get along, they aregoing to bond to the dog first.
They are gonna listen to eachother.
They're not gonna listen to you.
And if you don't take them outindividually and treat them as
individuals with differentpersonalities, take them on
walks at different times.
You can't treat twin childrenlike one unit.
Pate (07:24):
Please stop dressing them the same.
jme (07:26):
You do have to recognize that they have different
personalities and that you needto spend time with them
one-on-one.
Somehow, when it's the dogs,people don't think that maybe
they're trying to get, you know,away with, well, they have a
companion and...
And they can play with eachother.
They can play with each other,which is great, but it is not a
replacement for you having agood, solid situation with your
(07:46):
dogs.
And the other problem thathappens is that the dogs become
codependent on each other.
Pate (07:51):
Mm-hmm.
jme (07:52):
What happens when one dies and the other is left without
them?
Pate (07:55):
That's happened too, sadly.
jme (07:57):
When we're talking about puppy personalities, they are
essentially moldable clay.
And there is a test you can doat around seven weeks called the
temperament test, and you dothings like bang pots and hold
them on their back and you testtheir responses to certain
things, and this can help giveyou a clue as to whether or not
(08:21):
they are going to have certainproblems in the future.
But there is no guarantee.
And so when people ask us aboutpersonalities, we have to tell
them they really don't have apersonality yet.
Pate (08:33):
Mm-hmm.
They don't, they're like Jmesaid, they're moldable clay.
In this family unit, the waythey act with each other is not
their personality.
Cuz you can take that dominantpuppy who has been beating up on
all of the siblings, who thinkshe's so cocky and he's in
control of everything.
You take him out of his comfortzone, which is his younger
(08:54):
siblings put him in a newenvironment.
There may be another dog in thehouse.
There may be kids in the house,cats, et cetera, that he's not
used to, and that dominant,cocky puppy now becomes a
chicken.
jme (09:11):
Or fear, aggressive, which would be worse.
Fear often is the root ofaggressive behavior.
Pate (09:17):
Mm-hmm.
jme (09:18):
And so sometimes that strong dominance with their
siblings becomes like thatintensive fear and insecurity
when they're alone.
Pate (09:28):
Right.
jme (09:28):
They only know how to be big fish.
Little pond.
Pate (09:31):
Exactly.
And then you get them in theocean and they're overwhelmed.
And then on the flip side, youcan get that little puppy, the
one who gets picked on all thetime, the one that you think
might be timid, the one whohides behind his mom, and you
get that puppy into your home,all of a sudden the puppy's not
(09:53):
getting beat up on by itssiblings and it becomes super
confident and it's outgoing andthings like that.
jme (10:01):
The same thing seems to happen at the shelter sometimes
where the dog that is thequietest, hiding under the bed
is the one that becomes thetotal like crazy man...
(maniac) when they get home andthe one that's barking their
head off gets home and they'relike, oh, this is a living room?
I totally get this.
And they go jump on the couchand they sit down quietly and
you never hear from them.
Pate (10:21):
Mm-hmm.
Kennel stress.
jme (10:24):
Since it is so hard to tell a puppy's personality, it's hard
to know if the puppy will be adog that's going to do a job for
someone later.
So this is the same reason thatwhen people are looking for
emotional support animals orservice animals, and they say,"I
want this puppy".
We have to explain to them thatthat is not how it works at all,
(10:47):
and they need an adult dog.
Pate (10:50):
Right.
So what are you looking for in apuppy?
If you're looking for a specificservice, specific task, you
realize that actual servicedogs, first, they are thousands
of dollars.
And the reason why the thousandsof dollars is because they are
trained to perform certain tasksfor a disability.
jme (11:14):
But 50% of the dogs that go into training fail and they do
not become service dogs.
And that is because of theirpersonality.
Because no matter what you do,they are not dogs that want a
job.
They are not dogs that are gonnasit calmly.
They cannot do it.
And I equate this to when, whenpeople tell us they want a puppy
(11:35):
as a service dog.
I'm like, do you have kids?
And they'll say, yeah.
And I'm like, are you certainthat your three-year-old is
gonna become an astronaut andyour five year old is going to
be the next piano virtuoso?
And they just look at me and I'mlike,"Neither do we know that
this puppy is gonna have theright personality to be a
(11:55):
service dog.
We cannot put a job on thembefore we know who they are".
It doesn't necessarily take solong to train the dogs.
It takes that long for them togrow up and find out what their
personalities are like.
They don't even start assessingor testing them to be service
dogs until they're a year and ahalf or two years old.
Pate (12:14):
They are learning to be themselves while they're
training for certain tasks.
So when I was younger, I wantedto be a vet and then I learned
that you had to cut animals openand that kind of grossed me out.
So that didn't happen.
And that's gonna, and that's apersonality thing, is I was dead
(12:38):
set.
I'm in third grade, I'm gonnaget myself a basenji, which I
did- and I was gonna be a vet,which I did not.
And then I was gonna be a marinebiologist and I did not.
And then I was gonna be a modelslash, I was gonna be the new
Gabrielle Reese.
jme (12:57):
Hmm.
Pate (12:57):
Volleyball player and a model.
Well, freshman year in college,I totally screwed up my ankle.
And then that didn't happeneither.
And that's the same thing with aservice animal.
You don't know what's gonnahappen.
They may start loving to betrained at six months.
By nine months, they're gettinga little bit older and they're
(13:18):
like, Hmm, this is boring, I'mnot into it.
12 months, they're like, Hmm, ohlook, a chicken.
No, you're supposed to befocused mister.
And he's like, no, I'm gonna gochase that chicken.
And that is the reason why evenwhen they are bred to do a job,
just become well trainedcompanion animals.
jme (13:37):
Yeah.
50% of the time.
Pate (13:39):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
jme (13:40):
Do you remember the woman that was fostering a puppy and
said that she wanted it to beher service dog?
And we gave her that speech andyears later she came back and
wanted to foster a different dogand said it didn't work out and
her puppy didn't turn out to bethe, service dog that she
thought.
I mean, thankfully she kept it
Pate (14:00):
Mm-hmm.
jme (14:01):
Because we, we lectured her really hard on that one...
Pate (14:03):
Right.
Yeah.
jme (14:04):
But basically she was trying again, and she wanted to
try again with another...
Pate (14:08):
Another puppy.
jme (14:08):
Puppy, yeah.
And I was just like, wow, okay.
This, this isn't working at all.
Pate (14:13):
And then there was a lady who actually was going through
service dog training who got aDoberman puppy to be her
mobility dog.
And I'm like, mm.
Dobermans.
Not really are that adept atthat kind of thing.
And he he was scared to gothrough doors and remember how
(14:39):
long it took to train him to gothrough doors, and she kind of
gave up.
jme (14:46):
That's not a dog that was gonna be a service dog.
We didn't know he was gonna bean astronaut or not.
Pate (14:52):
Mm-hmm.
jme (14:52):
He turned into who he turned into.
And so when we talk aboutpuppies, we talk about nature
nurture, and that's why you canhave puppies come out different.
Pate (15:01):
Mm-hmm.
jme (15:02):
And then personality.
And do you really want to putthat responsibility on a puppy
so early on?
Like, don't you want your dog tobe happy and if you put a job on
them that they are not gonnalike, you're not making them
happy.
It's setting up the situation toend poorly.
What you see is what you get inan adult dog.
(15:23):
And you might have someinformation about their history,
their experiences, but they aregonna behave like they're gonna
behave and...
Pate (15:32):
Right.
You're either gonna know thatthey want a job, that they have
to have a job like Niall, thePumi, he needs a job.
jme (15:41):
Lots of dogs need jobs.
But yeah, other dogs don't wanta job at all.
Pate (15:45):
No.
They, they just want to hang outand be a mooch who just loves
treats and to hang out with you.
jme (15:53):
Well, and they just wanna be...
Pate (15:54):
And Netflix and chill.
jme (15:55):
They just wanna be dogs.
Pate (15:56):
Right.
jme (15:57):
We don't want people to set up a puppy to have a job that it
just isn't gonna want to have orbe happy with.
Pate (16:02):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
jme (16:03):
When people contact us to surrender one of the litter
mates, we have to find out whichone is the aggressor and which
one isn't.
Because there's a chance thatthe aggressor is going to become
aggressive in the new home.
Pate (16:16):
Because they've already learned that behavior and that
they can get away with that.
jme (16:19):
Which is what happened with our client dog.
The dog learned that behaviorand the aggressor was the one
that left.
We were not consulted about thateither, so just so you know, we
would've helped them,(right) butwe weren't asked to help.
So we find out what's going onand who the aggressor is
typically, and then, we rehomethe one that is being beat up
(16:40):
on.
Pate (16:41):
The quote unquote easier dog.
It's easier, a more adoptabledog, the the one that you let
go.
Unfortunately, it's going to bethe easier one because that is
the one that will probably bemore successful in a new home,
whereas the aggressor, the moredifficult dog.
jme (17:01):
And the longer it's gone on, it becomes more of a habit
and that's how they think theworld functions.
And it's not
Pate (17:09):
So they take a little bit more work.
And since you, you already knowthem, you already love them.
You are going to be more willingto work on this behavior to make
them be a better dog than astranger to them.
jme (17:22):
Yes.
And that's the same thing whenpeople contact us for the old
dog or the puppy.
My old dog doesn't like mypuppy.
Well, we're gonna rehome...
Pate (17:31):
The puppy
jme (17:32):
let's talk about that dog.
That's not where people want togo.
Pate (17:35):
Mm-hmm.
jme (17:36):
They don't like that.
Somehow the dog that is doingthe problem thing it becomes
like the less favorite child.
Pate (17:43):
Right.
jme (17:44):
And they see that as getting rid of the problem.
Pate (17:47):
Mm-hmm.
jme (17:47):
But no one wants your problem.
No one else wants your problem.
So you get to keep the problem.
And in litter mate syndrome,when you take the dogs out of
that situation, you take oneaway, a lot of the behavior that
you may not like is going to goaway.
Pate (18:01):
Right.
And then you have one dog that'snot fighting that you can work
on, and we have more belief thatit's gonna get along with other
dogs in the future, right?
Mm-hmm.
So once you have this puppy, you train it, and when
it's an adult and trained andsocialized, then you can
(18:24):
introduce a puppy into the homeif you want to be a multi dog
home.
We always recommend when you geta puppy that you take that puppy
and you train it because if youtrain it well, when you
introduce a new puppy to it,probably like around two years
old or so, you've got a verywell-trained dog who's gonna
help train that puppy.
jme (18:47):
Yes.
That's another thing about it isthat we don't want two puppies
training each other.
Pate (18:52):
It's a nightmare.
jme (18:53):
It is a nightmare and a lot of times people are, well, we're
going to gonna get another puppyin a year so that they can be
friends.
Just, just work on the dog thatyou have.
Just work on this dog.
Pate (19:03):
Let that personality develop before you throw like a
rock and it ripples instead ofbeing flat and smooth.
jme (19:09):
Well, because you're not gonna know their personality,
you're not gonna know which doggets along well with them
either.
So it, it all goes back to thesame thing is that we have to
let the puppies grow up anddevelop.
They need to be able to sleepalone.
They need to be able to bewithout each other.
They need to be able to listento you and you have to treat
them as individuals.
Pate (19:28):
Right.
jme (19:29):
And if you do that, then you are mitigating some of the
chances of these thingshappening.
But you have to work that muchharder at making sure you do
that.
Pate (19:39):
Yeah.
It's going to be a lot more timeconsuming because you're gonna
have to do things individuallysuccessfully.
More often than not, it's gonnahave to be on an individual
basis.
Say you take Frank to classes onSaturday and then you take
Gerard to classes on Sunday, andthat helps mitigate that.
(20:03):
If you take him to classestogether, they're gonna look at
each other, want to play witheach other and not listen to
you.
So it's double trouble.
We talked about litter matesyndrome with dogs however, with
cats, that's a different story.
jme (20:16):
With cats, the opposite is really true.
It's better to adopt them outtogether in pairs because they
are bonded at that moment andcats are harder to introduce new
members of the family to lateron in life.
And so when you adopt them outtogether, they tend to do better
together.
Pate (20:36):
Right.
The opposite is true with catsand it's called single kitten
syndrome, or also known asTarzan Syndrome because they are
wild childs.
jme (20:50):
So that's if you only have one kitten.
If you only have one kitten,they don't have anyone else to
bite and scratch and beat it upon, and they treat you like
their playmate and they becomebitey and difficult.
And honestly, sometimes peoplewanna give up on their kittens
because they have become littletarzans and those cats, if they
(21:11):
don't get playmates, if theydon't get an outlet with a dog
they are likely to be bitey,scratchy cats when they get
older.
And I actually experienced thatwith my cat Refugee.
She came in as a stowaway in atransport wasn't on the
manifest, and Pate held her upand was like, oh my gosh, look
(21:32):
at this cat.
It had one eye bulging andwhite, and it looked like a
little bat.
And she did not look like shewas gonna live.
Pate (21:39):
Mm-mmm.
jme (21:40):
Even a day.
But I took her home and I nursedher.
And then I realized after a fewdays, this cat is actually
really strong.
But I called her Refugee becauseshe was the stowaway.
But...
Pate (21:51):
And you thought she was a boy.
jme (21:53):
I did think she was a boy.
That's a whole other story.
As she grew up, she started toget really bitey and like really
outta hand.
I mean, I've handled a lot ofdifferent kinds of cats and I
was like, wow, this cat, it's,five weeks old and it's just a
terror.
I had to borrow some littermates from a litter.
(22:15):
So we split up a differentlitter, and they'd all been
through quarantine, so we knewthey were healthy.
We split up a different litterand gave Refugee some siblings.
And for the first two days shejust sat in the corner and
growled at them and their playplaying and she's just, and then
(22:35):
she started playing with themand she started attacking them.
Really hard, And she thoughtthis was great.
They didn't correct her and soshe was just beating the crap
out of them.
And finally size became moreapparent and personalities
became more apparent, and shewas put in her place.
(22:56):
But she would be a different cattoday if it weren't for me
making sure that she had somesiblings to play with to get
that aggression out.
Otherwise, it would still becoming out on me.
We could go on and on for a longtime...
Pate (23:08):
And on!
jme (23:09):
About some of this stuff, but we have run out of time for
now.
I'm Jme.
Pate (23:14):
I'm Pate.
jme (23:15):
Rock On.
Pate (23:16):
Rescue on.
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