From Circuits to Self-Love: An Engineer's Journey Through Loss and Transformation

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tonya J. Long (00:00):
Hello and welcome to RESET with Tonya here at
KPCR 92.9 in gorgeous Los Gatos.
It is a beautiful, sunny,bright, blue day and the
forecast for tonight is Justin.

Justin Wenck, PhD (00:14):
It's dark.
It's going to be dark tonight.

I have been absolutely worthless getting
ready for this session becauseJustin and I go back what at
least 11 months now, and Justinalways balances things out with
a heavy dose of humor.
So I am here today with JustinWink, friend, fellow, you're a
fellow in so many ways.
You're a fellow author.
Actually.
You have your book here,Engineered to Love.

I do for those watching on the YouTube or
the wherever.
Two years Hard to believe.

time flies Hard to believe, two years Engineered
to love, and Justin also is avery experienced podcaster with
his podcast E-EmotionsEngineering.
I think your podcast name isEnergy.
Engineering, emotions and Energyso you got that E alliteration
going and as a Southern gal Ilove my alliteration.
But you know we're here to talkabout your resets and so as I

(01:07):
introduced Justin, just a little, Justin's had plenty of resets.
He got a PhD in engineering andwent off to do the deep tech
work with a big company name inthe valley that's been around
for 50 more years Intel.
So you've been at severalengineering tech companies, but
the role that I most equivalentyou to is Intel, because then

(01:28):
you launched from Intel.
You were delivering yogaclasses at Intel.
That made you a littledifferent as a senior member of
the engineering team.
And then you went on to open upa practice where you are
engineering emotions that's thename of your company and then
you wrote a book on engineeredto love, which I think is
remarkable.
I'm going to be stereotypicalwhen I say this Engineers don't

(01:48):
talk about love, and you do, andyou're talking about all kinds
of love of self, love of family,love of purpose, and it's just
very impressive.

Thank you so much, Tonya.
Yeah, it's great to be here ina real radio station.
I haven't been in a radiostudio since I was in college.
It's so funny.
The call letters are on KPCRand the last radio station that
I was on it was college radio.
It was Cal Poly Radio, KPCR.
So it's the same letters justmixed around.
I think they were 92.3.

(02:19):
I could be wrong, Maybe, and itwas great getting to come in
here and listen on the way.

In Did wrong and it was great getting to come in
here and listen on the way, anddid you know that this station
can be heard up to three milesaway?
That was about how far away wewent.
No, here.

Yeah, I was about three miles away when I
finally could get my car toactually tune into the station.
So a little tip for themanagement is you want to put
that transmitter up high, likeon top of the desk or something?

So it can be, so we can talk about that later.
Because actually our stationdirector took a little weekend
trip down south, close to SLO,where you, I think, went to
undergrad, and he was able topick up the station.
I shouldn't admit, but it waslike Paso Robles it was.
He had there was.
He was so excited, there wassuch great range.

I don't know, oh I don't know, maybe as I'm
coming from the north and thecoast here, so it's different.

Yeah, maybe.

I'm teasing, I'm having some fun.
We're also simulcasting.
It's on broadcast worldwide onthe web, because I was able to
pick that up from home and soit's great to kind of get to get
comfortable with the radio.
So you've been listening tokpcrorg.

Yeah, I'm hopeful , like my friends in Tennessee.
Since we publish this ahead oftime, they listen and they send
me notes.
I wish they'd do likes.
Instead of sending me privateFacebook messages, I'll pick any
of the love I can get.

Oh yeah, it's all good to get the love and I
used to tell people that I'm arecovering engineer, but I do
now feel like I'm a fullyrecovered engineer, that I'm
human that can do engineering.
There's so many things that Ican do and engineer, that I'm
human that can do engineeringand I can.

(03:51):
There's so many things that Ican do and we all can do that.
So it's often in these times ofloss, transition, where things
don't go the way that we realizewe're so much more than we we
get attached to.

But yeah, so what prompted that shift for you?
Because you know you made quitethe commitment.
Yet you went all the way to geta PhD in electrical, I think,
engineering, yeah, and then thework of being in a really
monstrously sized tech company.
And then you took that yogaclass and went in your own
direction in that world.

(04:15):
What was behind that transitionfor you?

So much of this transition was motivated by
horrible, crippling depression,I would say.
And what got me into yoga andmeditation was when I was in
grad school.
I had some really challengingdepression that forced me to go
get help from therapy and evensome pharmacology, and I was
like I don't want to be stuckwith this stuff, like what else

(04:41):
is there?
And so I got into meditation, Igot into yoga and that was, and
then about 10 years later Iended up having kind of like
another round around the COVIDtime, and that was really.
But I'd like to let people knowthat I feel like that era of the
pain, the challenging emotions,the losing your job, losing
your relationship, the fear thatwell, if I don't do this, then

(05:04):
I'm going to starve or I'm goingto be a loser, I'm going to be
a failure.
I feel like those times aregoing away and we are moving
towards the you do thingsbecause, well, that sounds fun
or I don't know, that justdelights my heart and that's.
I think that's where we'regoing and it's going to be a
shift for a lot of people thathave been used to the old way of
you wait until oh my gosh,something's on fire.

(05:24):
So I guess now I better figureout where I actually want to go,
because I can't be here anymore.
And so instead, you know we'relooking around and oh my gosh,
look over there, isn't that agreat place to go.
Maybe I'll just do a radio show.

You know what I think.

What do I have?
You have a lot of thingsBesides a merman shirt.

Besides a merman shirt, that is a great shirt
you're wearing today.
You have curiosity.
You know, you and I live in avery intense world.
The people that we are wired tobe here to help on their
journeys.
It's pretty intense living inthe Bay Area and people often
live in scarcity and fear.
Yeah, and I'm guilty, andpeople often live in scarcity

(06:03):
and fear, yeah, and.
I'm guilty, the conversations wehave, but I am far from
arriving at being better at this.
It's a journey, but you reallyhave a consistent framework of
always being like.
That is so cool.
What will that mean for us?
Where I'm like, how am I goingto make this work?
And you're like, oh, I couldthink of all the ways to make

(06:23):
this work, and I think thatcuriosity has led you to
happiness yeah everything ispossibility for you.

Yeah, because it really has been a of how can
I actually experience morehappiness.
It's been a journey and there'sa little bit of those.
You know the cliche of oh whenall this time and I found out
that really what I had the wholetime.
You wrote the book based on AIthrough the lens of the Wizard
of Oz, where she kind ofrealizes, oh, you probably know

(06:52):
what the, but she had it allalong.
And it's like my source yeah, mysource of happiness is with me,
period end of story, and it'swithin you and it's within each
of us and really it's.
It radiates the other way, likeour outside is a reflection of
what's going on inside.
So it's everything around yousucks and it's because what's
going on inside is pretty awful,not good.

(07:13):
That's the bad news.
The good news is, you canchange it.
You just got to look in and dothe shifting and there's lots of
ways, lots of people out here,helping those shifts.

That's a hard message for some people because
because all they hear in that isit's my fault, I feel bad.
So for me, for the way Ireceive people and try to help
them see things to remind themit's their fault they feel bad.
There's a fine line and andpeople are such perfectionists

(07:43):
out of here, out here right,people that we consistently deal
with have been top of theirgame and everything they've done
since they walked at age twomonths yeah, and they are.
They are very high achievers,intent and surrounded by high
achievers.
So the comparison which I'vealways said, that comparison
robs us of joy.

Yeah.

And it does.
But I think that we I'm sayingyou and me we have to get past
just focusing on the messagethat you feel bad, if you choose
to, Because people need helparriving at a different place
more naturally.

Yeah, place more naturally, yeah, and what I
would say is that for men, formany of us and for many of you
listening, that it's like thingshave happened to you that you,
you, yeah, and it's it's notyour fault, I'd like to shift it
.
It's not your fault, it's youropportunity.
Yeah, to shift it it's.
I was at a gathering and therewas an opportunity to be taught

(08:43):
like dancing and stuff like that, and the dance instructors that
it was the woman had like thisgreat accent and she was like
now, just be like a baby, justflow with it, just be like a
baby and don't worry aboutthings, let your body do and
don't worry and things like that.
And in so many ways we are likebabies.
We like to think that, oh, I'man adult and things like that,
but it's like a baby.
They don't know everythingthat's necessarily going on,

(09:03):
they're still figuring out theirsenses and their capabilities
and we're continuously like that.
And it's once we realize, wait,I see what's going on, I see my
ability.
Now it's your opportunityBefore things were happening to
you.
But once you grow up and thething is there's no timeline on
this I don't know.
I hear people talk about kidsand nieces and things and

(09:23):
so-and-so, is not walking yet ornot talking yet because there's
all these developmentaltimelines.
But on these types of things oflike joy, happiness, there's no
timeline.
It's like some people they getit when they're a kid, some
people get it when they're anadult, some people get it just
before they die, some peoplethey're not going to get it in
this lifetime and I'm not hereto force anybody on any timeline

(09:44):
, but if anybody's, hey, I thinkI'm ready.
I'm curious, and that's whenthe teachers there's that saying
, the teacher appears when thestudent is ready.

The teacher's always been there, it's just the
teacher's being patient, theteacher's there always, and what
you're saying about timelines,I think is pretty important,
because everybody wants whatthey want right now.
I think is pretty importantbecause everybody wants what

(10:20):
they want right now.
And there's plenty of historyaround us about the people that
in years or activities that werehard before they got to Nevada,
and so that's what I try toremind people, because we all
think I'm working so hard.
There's a little bit of Ideserve this right now.

Yeah.

And you do, but learning is part of that journey
.

Yeah, and I get that and towards the end of
the show.

I'll share something so that you're holding
out, you're waiting.
Oh yeah, it's a code word.

You're going to ask me for this at the end,
but you know, stick around forthe end of the show.
I'll share something of how youcan get what you want right now
, cause now's the only time youcan actually get anything.

You're not going to wait another 45 minutes for
that.

Well, I guess they can fast forward, or
whatever forward.

It's all good.
Let's go back to your dark daysof engineering.
Right, it wasn't dark days, I'msure there were things about it
.
But when did you, when and howdid you recognize that you
needed to make a shift?
Because I think you were inwhat many would consider an
elevated place, a prestigiousplace, and you chose to move

(11:26):
beyond that into something Iwouldn't say it's radically
different.
In activity.
You still maintain ties to thatbecause those are the people
that you help.
So that was part of yourlearning experience.
But what helped you recognizethat the discomfort was enough?
You mentioned depression, butwhat helped you make a choice to
actively do something different?

It was, yeah, the sort of the pain of it's
either I do something differentor why even be on this earth in
this form anymore.
And so, once getting to thatstate of being, it really does
create the gateway, because nowI guess anything's easier
because it's the alternative isjust annihilation from this
experience, and I just that wasthat seemed.

(12:13):
I'll be honest, that alwaysseemed like even more too much
work for me.

I'm just like that just seems like such a
hassle to try to um, it is justit.

And so then it's.
And then it seemed like usuallyit'd be something where it's.
I guess I could try this.
There'd be there would.
I guess I could try this.
There would have been somethingthat would have been sprinkled
into my mind that then it's.
Oh, I guess I could go to thismeditation place.
I loved listening to radiogrowing up.
I listened to all sorts of talkradio and Howard Stern, and I
just remember him talking abouthow hard his childhood was, but

(12:37):
that learning liketranscendental meditation
changed his life.
And so that seed was buriedinside of me.
And then, when it got too hardfor me, I was like, let me go
look out for meditation.
And so that seed was likeburied inside of me.
And then, when it got too hardfor me, I was like, let me go
look out for meditation.
And also he had talked aboutgoing to therapy and so I could
go get a therapist.
And then once I got going, itwas.
My journey has really been veryincremental.
It's never been the TonyRobbins school math take massive

(12:58):
action, do massivetransformation, change things.
Right now, see how big my headis.
Like your head can be twice ashuge, as you've got to change
now and burn it all.
That's not working and it'slike that's.
It doesn't have to be that way.

It's like that must mean that you've watched
some of the the availablecontent out there for those
genres.

I've yeah, I've gone to those spaces.
They have their time and theirplace, and so some people.
But I found for me it's littleincremental stuff.
Just my first position in Intelwas doing analog circuit design
and after a couple of years I'mlike I don't enjoy being around
these people because they'renot really all that human.
Maybe I could try being aroundmarketing people or just other

(13:39):
like sometimes just these likelittle tiny steps can have big
changes over a lifetime of.
Oh okay, I can be arounddifferent people and they'll
have a different perspective,and then I need to use different
tools or learn different waysof being.

(14:01):
It's okay, I'm still technical,but now I've got to learn some
business-y stuff and think abouthow my message is being
perceived and how am I beingperceived?
And yeah, so it's been veryincremental, I would say.
So there really has been ajourney over a couple decades.
At this point, and it's likethat's.
I like to say that I've nowfigured out some ways that can
speed that up for people,because that's one of the things
that I'm really good at,because your experience and what
you learned didn't work.

And what did work ?
You can save people the timeand energy that you spent
getting there, I love it.
But if somebody wants to taketwo decades, like they can, but
if they want to compress thatinto two years, you don't know
how you do know how many, howmany late 20 year olds I've said
please go to therapy now.
Don't get to be 50 and then doyour good therapy and then have

(14:40):
squandered 20 good years whereyou were doing relationships
wrong.
This is typically.
It's typically and you know whoyou are if you're out there
listening.
I've said to people go now andthat's funny, I know you don't
make a lot of money right nowbecause you know of the place in
life you're just gettingstarted.
Get yourself squared away sothat you go into relationships
whole and healthy and you don'twaste 20 years on pain from

(15:03):
relationships, and I've got somegood success stories under my
belt of people who have donethat and are just remarkably
transformed in how they look atthem at themselves so they're so
, then their relationships aremore fulfilling and clear yeah
yeah, I'm gonna take one secondreal quick and do a quick
station identifier.

(15:24):
We are at KPCR, lp 92.9 in LosGatos and sister station KMRT LP
101.9 out of Santa Cruz.
It's a beautiful day at PirateCat Radio.
We are here with RESET, withTonya, with my good friend
Justin Wink my wicked friendJustin Wink, my wicked friend

(15:45):
Justin Wink.
That is a.
That's a reflection on our past.
We, we did a podcast rightbefore Wicked was released back
in the fall, and you were verythoughtful because you, you did
the podcast at the time and youdid because my book was based on
the Wizard of Oz theme, andthen we went and saw the Wicked
movie the next weekend togetherand it was a lot of fun.

Yeah, and I ended up really enjoying it.

Musicals not necessarily my thing, but it was
well done and fun and I wasglad I went and it was very
thoughtful of you and it gaveyou a conversation point for all
the people that are in yourlife that would have yeah.
Have you seen Wicked?
Because it was such a bigrelease when it came out.

Yeah.

Yeah, good.
So when it came out, yeah, yeah, good.
So something you said rightbefore the the station.
Id made me write down findingyour tribe because you were you
talked about.
Should I go to hang out withmarketing people, with the
engineers?
Should I hang out with peoplethat think and feel and act
differently?
So finding your tribe, I think,is such an important part of

(16:44):
evolving and I think part offinding your tribe is being
willing to let go of what youhave.

Yeah.

So did you have to let go?
You let go of the identity asbeing a large public company
software leader.
You let go of that identity.

Yeah, it'd be nice to say that.
Oh, that was such a consciousdecision yet in reality, it was
one of the one of the releasesthat was a little bit thrust
upon me, I like to say I wasliberated from my job, but I was
.
I was part of a layoff as partof a layoff, and it was a one of
one of many in the past fewyears, gut-wrenching experiences

(17:25):
of just what happened.
What do you mean?
And yet also I've learned thatin any and all loss, there ends
up being so much more to gain,absolutely.

Say that again.

In any loss, there's so much to be gained.
Because if we just take thesimple metaphor of right now, I
have a book in my hand.
But let's say, if Tonya had$100,000 she wanted to give me,
I can't take the hundredthousand dollars from tanya
unless I'm willing to let go ofthis book, and I just dropped it
.
And I wonder if that showed upon the.
I don't know anyway, but it itreally is like.

(17:57):
We often, always, want more inour life, yet we never want to
let go of anything and it's atsome point the universe however
you, your life, you, whatever itwill it tries gently to go.
This is not for you, this is notfor you.
But at some point it's going toget louder, more forceful, and
that's sometimes when big thingshappen, like you get fired or a

(18:18):
divorce or a breakup orsomebody dies, even because I've
experienced loss of my mother,grandmother, sister in like the
last three-ish years, and it'salso allowed me to really look
at what are my relationships andI'm so grateful for the
relationships that have comeinto my life since these losses
and things like that, and I knowthat it's a way of me growing

(18:42):
and growing with them eventhough they're no longer here
and I've been able to grow,since I'm not at a tech company
anymore the things I've beenable to do and experience even
though I was able to do a lotwithout having to spend a lot of
time, but it was still like I'mbeholden to who's writing the
salary check and, yeah, and youmoved.

I think what you moved into, whether it was
intentional or not at the time,has given you far more choice
and agency in what you do, andthat agency, I think for many of
us, leads to better fulfillmentand happiness.

Oh yeah, and there's probably many people out
there that have gotten intothings and they have some idea
of what it means to besuccessful in it.
There can be such a gift in notbeing successful in something
yet, because success can be sucha trap.
There's the term the goldenhandcuffs 100%.
But any type of success can be agolden handcuffs.

(19:33):
If you do something and all ofa sudden you have 100,000 people
that love that, can you doanything different and keep
those people?
Probably not, so that's goingto be something even harder to
let go of.
So if you've gotten intosomething and it's oh, it's not
going, it's like you just mightbe building one of what might be
required of a few skills beforeyou get to your really big

(19:53):
thing, and if you got too bigtoo soon, it might actually slow
you down.
I've done a lot of things whereI've at times been like oh why
am I not good at this?
It's not quote unquotesuccessful.
And then a year later, I'm like, oh, I'm so glad that didn't
work out, because I'm sick ofthat now.

We were talking about loss and you and I have
some of the same losses,identical losses, in our lives
divorces, a divorce each, notthe full each, but anyway I
digress.
But being divorced is a loss.
Losing a job, we've both donethat is a loss.
We've both lost our parents.
You still had your dad.
Yeah, tremendous loss.

(20:29):
And in Engineered to Love.
You talk about being engineeredto love and how that relates to
loss.
I should have prepared aheadand picked the passage for you
to read.
That would have been veryprepared of me, because you've
got some real zingers in yourbook.
Because you've got some realzingers in your book.

I do tend to like, yeah, good quotes come out
, and luckily some of them madeit into the book, because some
of them they just go out, and Ithink a recent one that came to
me that I'm like.
I think this is a cool thought.
It was almost like thehierarchy of power, like just
power is actually the lowestform, then there's power with
others and the highest form ofpower is the power within.

Oh yes, power.
Power with power within,because that's about agency and
choice and people choose.
I'm circling back to loss.
A lot of people initially willlook at loss as just as it was
taken from them.

Yeah.

Instead of what it makes available for them.

Yeah, because I think a lot of people look at
it kind of how I looked at whathappened after my first
experience of drinking junglejuice in college.
What is jungle juice?
So jungle juice is.

Is it alcoholic?

It's alcoholic.

Okay.

It's alcoholic where I believe it's.
Just you get a big containerand you just start throwing in
whatever alcohols and juices,you just mix it all up and then
you just scoop it up and drinkit, so the sweet juice takes.

We had a name for that that was different.
I forgot.

There's probably different names based
on what you know, but it's justlots of hard alcohol and then
lots of juice.

To cover, to mask the burn.

Yeah, yeah.
So it'll get you messed up up.
You might not even know, andthen you've got all this nasty,
cheap whatever okay, but youwere partaking of jungle juice.

I derailed us with what is jungle?

yeah, so my first experience that I might
have had a lot too much of thatand went to sleep passed out on
my bed and I awoken to a wholebunch of vomit in my bed and my
reaction was who did this to me?

Oh, good story.
Now you're okay.
And who did this to me?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, somebody.
And I feel like when weexperienced loss, it's who did
this to me.
It's something someone's whereit's really.
It's like I'm part of this,like I was part of this.
I might not have been aware,but when you step back, it's
like we are often part of theloss and the loss can be, is
ultimately for our benefit.

(22:54):
At least that's how I choose tolook at it, and I think everyone
can look at it that way too,because it's like we were saying
it's like you can't havesomething new unless you allow
some space by letting some stuffgo, and that has to do with
relationships and things likethat.
Like we can't, it's hard for usto have that experience of
different forms of mother andfather if the mother and father

(23:18):
that we grew up with don'tphysically go away.
Like it allows a differentconnection to the archetype, the
energy, the, whatever you wantto call it, allows it to get
even closer to having an ideal,divine-type connection to the
mother-father, when we don'thave the I don't know, it's just
kind of a messed-up analogy.

(23:38):
I'll share it.

We are on public radio.

Yeah, yeah, it's more just, it's clear.
But I had a somebody.
I'll just say some.
Somebody said something afterlike my mother passed and the
way some inheritance thingsworked out, it was like, and
this person's mother passed,like when they were really young
and mine passed when I wasolder and was just hey, is it
fair that you get what you gotand I got what I got, feeling

(24:02):
like he got the short end of thestick because his mother passed
when he was like a teenager andso he's thinking that I'm so
much better off because I had mymother and then I got some
other gifts and things like that.
And I didn't respond to thatbecause I'm like I don't need it
.
But I had a thought of youdon't know what it was like
growing up with my mother andfor all you know, it was the
greatest gift that this person'smother passed away when they

(24:23):
did.
Because we don't know what'sgood or bad.
We just have this assumptionthat oh, it's better to have a
relationship go till death.
Do we part to have a mother andfather live long and but
sometimes like maybe we'regetting an extra special gift
when they're not in our life orthey pass soon, like we.
There's so many moreopportunities that's different
than what we think is what we'resupposed to have, so that's

(24:44):
just what I.

Yeah, and that was very tame, so I'm sorry.
I cautioned you before youstarted.

It talks about taboo topic of you're
always supposed to go.
Oh yeah, you should always bethe mother so blessed and the
father Some are not so great.

And that's what you learn in therapy, right.

Yeah.

To not make up your narrative in such a way
that it's not truthful aboutwhat you went through.
What I decided in my50-year-old therapy was they did
the best they could.
Oh yeah.
And that generation they lovedifferently.
The children the men I date nowthat are 50, that have kids.
How they act with theirdaughters is not how my daddy

(25:27):
acted with me.
It's a different time.
We've learned a lot about howto show love the generation of
our parents.
They didn't have that.
They did the best they could.

Yeah, I kind of like to think of it as
generations of the PlayStationgame console.

That's exactly how I think about it.

there seems to be this expectation on both
sides that it's like the, thethe parent to child thing should
just be.
It's there's some perfectwhatever, but it's no.
These are like new generationsof hardware and software and,
yes, there can be a littlebenefit of where you you bring
the older generation game to thenew platform, but it's it's
going to be missing a littlesomething, it's not taking

(26:07):
advantage of whatever, and soit's sort of like that new
generation is going to need itsown stuff and be different.
And it's like you respect theolder generation for all of it
because it let us get to the newgeneration, but it's like we
shouldn't stop growing and weshouldn't stop shifting.

There's value in both.
To stop shifting, there's valuein both.
I'm thinking about the analogyor the differences I just
articulated with the men that Idate that have children.
It's different, but I thinkthere are.
There's good and bad on bothsides.
With my parents, who I loveddeeply, I learned to be
resilient.
I learned to be resourceful, Ilearned to be very independent
and do my own things.

(26:44):
I learned to be veryindependent and do my own things
.
I think this generation isgetting a lot of hands-on love,

(27:05):
but with that hands-on lovethey're not developing the same
levels of resourcefulness,because that muscle isn't grown,
because it's like oh, let daddydo it for you.
Oh, let mommy write a check andhave that done.
And people want to do good fortheir kids.
The childless woman on thevideo recognizes let them skin
their knees, let them grow letthem figure it out.
It's amazing what kids willfigure out if you give them the
space, and a lot of parents areso deeply involved today with
their kids.
It's to them.
It's abusive if they're not,like they're holding their hand,
put the mandate on the kneeevery time there's a little

(27:26):
scrape and I think in a lot of,if they're not like they're
holding their hand, put themandate on the knee every time
there's a little scrape and Ithink in a lot of ways they're.
The kids get a lot of love butthey're not.
It's not long term, it's notgood for the long term because
it's not letting them grow yeah,I agree, but also shift a
little bit.

That there's because it's interesting.
I got to on a trip and got tosee my good friend from high
school who's got a 13-year-oldNice, and so it's just
interesting to like observe andthere's a little bit of noticing
that it's oh, I feel like a lotof the way this the son is
based off.
A lot of my friend.
There's a little bit of what13-year-old really wants to

(28:02):
become an accountant or go intoit as an accounting major really
wants to become an accountantor go into it as an accounting
major of.
So I because I think this is alittle bit of where parents want
to do the best for their kid,based off the world as they
understand it.
Yet the world continues toevolve and the that like
resilience and things like thatit to me.
I don't believe the world'sgoing to be a world of scarcity,

(28:23):
it's going to be a world ofabundance, so that some of that
things that were necessary ofhow to scrape and hustle and all
these things.

Build our own tree houses, yeah.

Yeah, there's a little bit like there's a
reason like why humans don'thave tails.
I don't know if we ever did orwhatever, but there's some
things where it's like we're ina different world.
We don't have these things we.
So there might be some thingsthat, like you and me, had to
learn that I it could be justlike I don't know how to ride a
horse, but a hundred years agoit's like what you don't know
how to ride a horse.

(28:52):
Like that's how to ride a horse.
Really, I probably could.
It's going to be rough, it'sgoing to be, but I'm we'll share
stories later.
I mean I wouldn't be surprisedif the majority of anyone born
in the last five years willnever learn how to drive a car.

We'll never learn how to drive a car because it
just makes sense.

There'll be some cause.
It's fun, old timing.
There's still people that, butit's now.
It's.
If you don't help somebodylearn how to drive it's they're
going to be not going to be ableto engage in this world.
But the way the world's going,it's like there'll be abundance
of ways to get around in theworld that don't require needing
to operate it.
Absolutely, and so yeah.

Good, good.
So you mentioned the13-year-old, which is a great
segue for me to do this nextstation identifier.

Oh.

And I'll tie it into 13-year-old in just a
minute when I say you arelistening to RESET with Tonya,
with Justin Lee, on KPCR LP 92.9out of Los Gatos and KMRT LP
101.9 out of Santa Cruz, and theconnection to the 13-year-old
is that Pirate Cat Radio here inLos Gatos is running a summer

(29:56):
camp for radio broadcasting.
So that's going to start inJune and I think that's a great
skill, hobby interest point.
We're targeting 13 to 17 yearolds for this summer camp, so
look on kpcrorg to get moreinformation.
It starts in June and, gosh, Ijust think that would be really

(30:16):
cool because a lot of these kidsare interested in podcasting.
These are such relevant skillsand you and I know speaking
skills are really important andto give these young people a
chance to work on that, I thinkwill be a brilliant way.

Yeah, it really allows a lot of things
from the speaking communicationtechnology.
Yeah.

I'm excited about it.
I think it's going to be prettycool, Anyway.
So back to what were we talkingabout when last I jumped off
the 13-year-old bridge?

(30:57):
I just know, speaking of bridges, the Dumbarton Bridge, if
you're heading over that rightnow, it gets higher in the
middle to allow boats to passthrough and then it comes down
so you can connect with theother roads.
So that's your traffic reportcoming out of KPCR.
Our listeners across the USneed to hear about the Dumbarton
Bridge.
Now they're asking dumb Barton,poor guy who was Barton?

It's just a funny name for any.
Some things are just Dumbarton.
Poor guy who was Barton, it'sjust a funny name for any.
Some things are just dumbBarton.

You are right.
So we've talked about loss.
Yes, loss is really just atransition you and I help people
with.
Say yes, tanya.

Yes, tanya.

I got you to do it.
That's awesome, but loss isjust a transition and you and I
help people with transition.
So the losses that you've hadand we've talked about the
different not layers, but thedifferent types of losses they
all come with different lessonslearned.
Yeah, and you've had several ofthose lessons.
How have those things directlyhelped you to help others?

(31:43):
Because you're not writing codeso much anymore.
You are.

You're helping people recode yeah how
they think and feel yeah, it'sthe great thing about not having
identity is it's so much easierto not take stuff personally.
So I feel like the gift, one ofthe biggest gifts of any form
of loss is it really is a lossof any solidity to our identity,

(32:09):
which I know a lot of in theworld is it's big on.
Ah, my identity is important.
You can't tell me that I can'tdo this because I'm this thing,
and I don't even have to say butwhatever the thing is you're
thinking of, that's it, and asmuch as you love it or as much
as you hate it, it's limiting,because I've really gotten to a
point where I view myself as ahuman and unique and then the

(32:31):
rest are just kind of likeattributes I can kind of play
with.
It's like I have preferences, Ihave things I want to do, but
it's like, for the most part,you tell me it's like Justin,
engineers are the worst thingever.
I'm like I don't know.
You tell me anything about.
Yeah, there'll be times thatI'm I'll get pissed off or I'm
sad or whatever.
Yeah, but for the most part Ican get over that pretty quickly

(32:52):
and so it allows me to be ofservice more.
I had the great opportunitywent to this gathering in
Florida and I got to offer aworkshop where I was teaching
people how to turn theirtriggers into treasures with
humor.

I love it.
Yeah, oh, I love it yeah.

And five of the people loved it too.
Out of the seven that showed upand two, I had the one guy that
is just he's I don't get it.
It's just I'm not getting it,Like.
I saw this guy in a couple ofthings.
He's just the I'm not gettingit guy because his brain, but
he's getting it and I don't haveto force him, argue whatever.

(33:28):
And then I also got the womanwho's I didn't actually get her
name, but I we can just say itwas Karen that she's just really
attached to being frustratedwith what she doesn't have and
just like what, yeah, and I'mjust respect, I'm able to like
respect and allow her to be whoshe is, where she is, is, and
maybe some of the stuff I saidwill.

(33:49):
Those scenes will sprout lateror not, but it's, I'm going to
appreciate the people that gotit and trust that the people
that showed up that maybe didn'tget it right, then they will
get it.
So I feel like that's been oneof the big things.
Is I?
Again, it's like I appreciateit.
I always look for ways that Icould improve, change, shift,
like afterwards I'm like, ooh,if I presented it in this little

(34:10):
shift of it, it might make it alittle bit more accessible,
whatever.
So it's not about I don't haveto worry about anybody else,
it's not that.
But I'm not so worried that I'mnot going to do my thing and
I'm not going to say what I'mgoing to say, because it's like
people are telling me some verychallenging, triggering things I
just got broken.
Like people are telling me somevery challenging, triggering
things of oh, I've had thislesson I just got broken up with

(34:31):
two weeks ago and this is howhe did it.
And so sometimes I'm like, hey,pause, skip to the end.
What's really going on here?
Yeah, if I was still like it'sone of my big identities, like
I'm somebody who's nice toeverybody.
That used to be an identity ofsomeone who I knew I was.
Like I'm so nice and so likable.
Be an identity of someone who Iknew I was.
Like I'm so nice and so likable.
Everyone needs to like me.
That person can't truly helppeople when they need it and

(34:53):
it's not kind.

We both coach loss, even when it's not framed
that way.
Lots of times when people areunsettled, it's about some form
of loss that doesn't necessarilyinvolve a human transition and
passing.
It's the losses of jobs.
The doesn't necessarily involvea human transition and passing.
It's the losses of jobs, thelosses of marriages, those kinds
of things.
But I find that the loss ofstatus is the biggest, most

(35:19):
complex and difficult loss tohelp people through.
Including myself.
I've lived that identity deathand it's not easy to come out of
and where's the oxygen tank?
But helping people see adifferent path after a loss that
involves status is one of thehardest to bring people out of.

For me, yeah, this is an issue.
I think somebody's got toreally want to be open to
letting go of that, and I don'tknow if it's probably just
doesn't get on someone's radaruntil they've actually lost
their status.
Honestly, in my experience.

It is never on people's radar and it's the
element of I'm not suggestingpeople go around and prepare for
loss because you can spend yourwhole.
That's not the solution, buthow people identify with and

(36:19):
accept loss, and in fact evenfor me.
You and I have talked a lotabout detachment because I love
that word being detached fromoutcomes.
Yeah about detachment, because Ilove that word being detached
from outcomes.
Yeah, but I am starting totransition my own thought
processes, not just becausedetachment is passive and I am
not.
It can be passive and I'm notpassive.
I'm switching my mindset moreto existence yeah because

(36:45):
detachment reflects to someoneelse.
I don't care, I don't care, youcan do whatever you want, I
don't care, I do care what youdo, but I accept what you do and
I think that I think thisconversation is parallel to the
healing conversations thathappen when people are dealing
with loss of status to me.

I think how I would.
I guess, if I was going todefine detachment, I would say
it's detaching my emotionalstate from anybody else's
actions or whatever, which isdifferent than having boundaries
.
It's like I can still haveboundaries.
I'm not going to allow myselfto get upset by what somebody
does, but that doesn't mean I'mgoing to invite them back over

(37:27):
for dinner again if they didsomething because the being
angry, the being upset partdoesn't, sir no, and it often
doesn't change the other person.
In fact, often it usually endsup allowing them to continue
being who they've been and are.
And some, sometimes just more,more and more.
I just end up smiling and beingamused, and I know there's some
people that they just get sofrustrated.

But why is this?

guy, so like yesterday I was at a group lunch
with you where you couldn'tstop smiling, and I was the only
one at the table who knew, yeah, what that meant, what those
code signals were oh there, I'llsay that there are times where
there were kind of little pokesat the status thing, and I

(38:09):
experienced this yesterdaybecause I think I was telling
you before the show, I went toCalistoga where they have all
these natural mineral springsand things like that.
I went to a place like this andgot a mud bath, which is great.

This is why your skin looks so good.
I'm just talking to you.
Yeah, I'm radiating.
You are.
You've been sloughed, I'veliterally been grounded in a
bunch of mud.
I've literally been grounded,but I'll bump mud bath.

And when the procedure was over, there was a
power outage in the whole town.
That's funny.
And there was a woman who waslosing her mind because she
couldn't blow dry her hair.
And she's like I'm supposed togo outside like this.
How embarrassing.

Where am I supposed to plug this in?
Is there anywhere?
It was like that's a bit of aform of loss of status right Of
like the status of being pretty,Because for her that was her
dignity was to be able to go outcoiffed.
She, for some reason, neededthat.

Yeah, and to me I'm just like, I'm in a
relaxed, chill mode.
Anyway, I think I can just keepchilling and relaxing, and I
did for the next two hours andthen the power came on.
It's like there was a pool,there's plenty of stuff to do
and yeah.
So it's like people willsometimes get the world can
status check you at any time,and so if you ever get

(39:25):
frustrated, it's like there's anattachment to status.
But I will offer that there is away to more proactively do.
It is to do something new, dosomething you haven't done
before, because you're not goingto have status at it, you're
going to be, you're not going tobe good, you're going to have a
hard time, you're going to beless than everyone else, and so

(39:45):
notice what comes up.
And so then that's, if it'sreally frustrating, really
challenging, whatever it's likeprobably time to get some tools,
get some practices, talk tosome people, because I do
believe that, like all thesetimes of loss and things like
they can be really awful, butthey don't have to be as awful
they can be.
It can be more easeful.

It's a mindset shift yeah you and I know
because the way we show up withpeople.
You can take two people andidentify the same calamity each
of them, yeah some people arevery interesting.
Well, I do with that yeah andthen other people are like I
can't, the hair dryer doesn'twork why am I?
Ever going to get a home?

Yeah, because me I was like, oh the power's
out, An even better detox, Likenow I don't have any.

Exactly Now.
I'm just imagining a power headcontrolled water supply in
terms of pumping it intowherever you were and you were
in mud for the rest of theafternoon.
That probably would have beeninconvenient.
Yeah, that would have been afunny story to tell oh, yeah,
yeah my 20 minute.

My bath lasted three and a half hours
because there was power yeah,yeah, because a lot of things
like the sooner you can get to30 years from now, if you looked
back, would.
What would you think about itif you could do that?
Now it's just skip to the.
Oh, this is an enjoyable storyI'm being a part of.
Instead of that.

Oh my gosh yeah, that's an interesting framework
to consider if people havethought about how do I turn this
is an enjoyable story.
I'm being a part of this.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah, that's an interestingframework to consider.
If people thought about how doI turn this into a good story?
Because this is a uniqueexperience, so how do I turn it
into a good story?
If we looked at things withthat mindset, we might create a
feeling of purpose in what ishappening and enjoyment of it,

(41:27):
maybe.
So before I ask this question,it is time for KPCR, lp 92.9 is
where we're broadcasting from,and sister station KMRT LP 101.9
FM.
We are a public radio stationand that means that we build
messages for the communitiesthat we serve.

(41:48):
So this station is and Justinwas asking me before the episode
, I would say is a very heavycreative music itinerary set.
And then they have some highquality talk shows like RESET
with Tonya, and there are somelocally based talk shows where
local business leaders andcommunity leaders are profiled

(42:08):
so that the community learnsthose people.
This is a public funded, userfunded experience and I'm so
proud to be part of it becausewhat we're doing, I believe, is
a service to the people who getto be in this community and be
part of that creative process.
So you're grinning.
I'm not going to ask whatthat's about, but I'm going to

(42:30):
ask on this thread that we'vebeen on around people accepting
what happens to them.
What do you think in all theexperience you've had dealing
with people, what are the themesthat make people successful at
accepting or not being attachedto outcomes.
What are the characteristics ofpeople who do that more

(42:52):
successfully?

I'd say that one of the things that can lead
to success, or just morecontentment more often, is when
it really is practice.
I think there's often this oh,when this happens, then that,
but it really really isn't.

(43:15):
Life is not this, then thatit's not.
We'd like to think it's linearbecause that's the mind, but the
mind is really not who's incharge, or it shouldn't be.
I can't remember whose quote itis, but it's like the mind is a
great servant but a horriblemaster, and so it really is that
the more you can practice withgetting out of the attachment of

(43:37):
what the mind is producing,because we don't get frustrated
with how our heart changesbeating or how our breath
changes it's often the thoughtsrun around, but the mind thinks,
the heart beats, the breathbreathes.
Who is the one experiencing allof that, or what is?
That's the real you, that's thereal me, and that's the real
essence, the real consciousness,the real source of it all, and

(43:58):
so the more it can get into that, and it really is just that
noticing and going like I'mgoing to shift my attention to
something.
Anything else Because that'sreally kind of like what
acceptance is is recognizingthat there's something happening
and just going.
This is happening and now I'mgoing to choose what to do with
it.
There's usually a habitualresponse of somebody did

(44:23):
something in traffic, so now Iexpress anger at them.
Yet there's also the option ofnoticing oh, this is happening
and I can now maybe notice well,that was an interesting color
of the car that cut me off, orthat's exactly what I say there.
There's, there starts to be achartreuse ford there really
starts to be an infinite numberof other things than the thing

(44:44):
that is done over and over andover again.
We're're often, we're all soboring, really so incredibly
boring, doing like the samehundred things every day in, day
out.
This happens, then that happens.
This happens, then that happens.

And yet we take ourselves so seriously.
Oh my gosh, I'm the worst.
I am chief sinner and saint fortaking myself too seriously.

Yeah.

As you were talking a moment ago.
I know that you've worked withlots of different people, which
is such a privilege right Tohave all these juicy
conversations andtransformations that you help to
facilitate, that you plantseeds in what are some of the
tools or techniques foracceptance that you might offer

(45:26):
to the people who are listening?

Yeah, so thanks to everybody who's been
sticking around since thebeginning of the show.

Oh, do we get it now?

Yeah, I think this is a great time.

Awesome.
I didn't mean to set that up,but I'm glad we did.
Yeah, okay.

Really it is shifting out of whatever you're.
It's like you're on a train butyou don't want to be on the
train anyway.
You can always get off, you canalways get off the train, but
it takes practice to to get goodat coming on and off the train.
The train will always suck youback in, but it's just

(45:59):
remembering that you can get offand it really is just doing
something that's right here,right now, in the present moment
, like something I like to say.
It's like getting to it, thetruth of now, because really,
whatever we're experiencing inthe here and the now, that's the
only thing that is absolutelytrue.
Anything you and I have said, itcould be complete lies, could
be complete lies made up.
The fact is, somebody heard it.

(46:20):
That's true.
There's no debating the.
So I'll offer there's threethings to this, but if you only
get one of them in a moment,like you're doing, great, so it
would.
The first is to breathe breathedeeper than you would usually
breathe, so like inhalingthrough the nose and then
exhaling through the mouth.
So that's like the one otherthing.

(46:42):
And then the second thing is,when you're doing that, you can
imagine that you're likebreathing into your heart, like
into the heart area and thenexhaling out to wherever.
So just that's not.
A second thing is it's like thebreath and attention on your
heart area.
And the third is you can justbe as you inhale.
You can just say I love myself,so just like inhaling, I love

(47:07):
myself.
So just like inhaling, I lovemyself.
And so if you just do one ofthe three things, you're doing,
great, two of the three thingsalso good, three out of the
three.
But I would challenge anybody.
If you can remember to do thatat least once a day and do that
consistently over the next threeweeks, you'll probably notice
some profound shifts.
And the more you can do it,this is the kind of thing that,

(47:30):
like driving down here, that Ican just do I love myself.
It just got cut off.
I can't get the radio stationon my dial.
I love myself.
It's coming into my heart.
Letting it out, because howmuch better is that compared to
anything else that you're likelygoing to be thinking?
that's just naturally rattlingaround, it's I have self-talk

(47:51):
yeah, oh, I have the most awful,horrendous default self-talk of
judging myself of other people.
I should have gotten the radiostation thing figured out
yesterday.
And it's like this person what.
They're going too slow.
That person's a maniac.

They're going too fast that person's driving a
pink car.

For god's sake yeah, yeah, yeah, that's
not even mary kay.

Oh, you didn't earn that car, you know what?
Oh my goodness.
All right, thank you for thatyeah and when people are
exhaling loudly on zoom callsacross america tomorrow, we'll
know that they listened to thepodcast and are looking forward
to what you shared.
So thank you for that moment ofteach and reach.

Yeah, yeah.
And if you breathe in a waythat people can hear it, that's
a service to other people,because then they go oh, maybe I
should breathe too.
Yeah, let's do that.
It can be like a real fun thing, because I think most people
maybe are aware that, like whenyou yawn it, it causes other
people to yawn I did that justyesterday yeah, but that can

(48:55):
happen and it's just wait.
I'm powerful.
I just did a deep breath andnow I see I notice other people
breathing a little bit moredeeply.

We're so powerful service to the world.
Yeah, I love it.
Yeah, I love it.
Speaking of service to the, wehaven't talked about technology
at all.

Isn't that amazing.

Isn't it wonderful I'm feeling so relaxed
.

Well, we'll talk about the KPCR radio camp
for the teens a little bit.

Fine, yeah, it's a stretch to say that was a
technology conference.

It sounded like a great event that I wanted
to plug again.
Yeah Well, thank you For thekids.
I'm going to plug again.
Yeah Well, thank you For thekids.

Thank you for that.
You've done improv.

We've talked about improv.
I have those gifts.

So thank you for all those gifts that you've
given today.
But on the tech talk side, whatrole do you think technology
plays in well-being or couldplay?
That's a fun conversation.

I'll answer this the way I'll just say.
I'll answer more of just what Ithink the role of technology
should be period.
The role of technology shouldbe to serve us however we desire
, period, end of story.
So I hear a lot of people thathave all these credentials and
all these experience going.
I think technology and AI isgoing to do this to us and that
to us, and I'm like I don't care.
If you can't say what youwanted to do, you probably
should go retire and not botheranybody anymore.

(50:13):
I want technology to be here toserve us so that we can enjoy
our lives, connect with otherpeople, get to be more artistic,
live in a world of abundancewhere we don't have to worry
about doing things to eat, tohave medical care, to have
places to live.
That's the kind of world thatI'm putting in, that I'm
creating.
That technology is going to behere, that it's going to be the
most incredible servant.

(50:34):
It's going to be maybe like thefourth servant.
It's our heart serves us, ourlungs serve us, our mind serve
us, and then technology is goingto serve us.
It's been backwards for way toolong where we have been serving
technology.
It's time to end that.
And if somebody is not aboutending that, stop listening to
them, stop paying them attention.
They're a child.
They're a child.

(50:55):
We've let the kids run amok fortoo long, especially here in
Silicon Valley and in otherparts of the world.
It's time for the adults to go.
All right, kids, that was cute.
We're going to make thisactually something that's going
to be really enjoyable foreverybody.
It's time for technology to befor everybody.
Period, end of story, andthat'll just result in great
wellness.

I love it.
What would be your number onetactical, practical tip?
I'm talking about the real meatand potato stuff.
Don't look at yourself on atnight when you go to bed those
kinds of which one resonates foryou the highest.

I would say one big thing is ignore the news
as much as possible.
Ignore as much news as much aspossible.
If it's really important,somebody will tell you.
And then after that, as muchtypes of digital detox.
I think it is good to have a nophone from at some point.
Don't go to the phone rightwhen you wake up.

(51:49):
But oh my gosh, even just afour hour digital detox it's.
It can be like quite whiteknuckling often, but you feel so
refreshed afterwards and then,if you can, then do that for a
whole 24 hour period.

Yeah.

But again start small Okay build, thank
you.

Start small, make improvements, build.
I could go on for another hour,but we're at the top of our
hour, so let's end this withhelp our listeners understand
how they can experience you, getin touch with you the mediums I
know we talked about at thebeginning of the call, but let's
let you recap that one moretime as we close.

Yeah, it's great to be here.
Kpcr 92.3, 92.9 FM Los Gatos,california.

You're hired.

Yeah, I'm like, oh my gosh, it's top of
the hour.
We've got to get the callletters out and all the things.
We can get in touch with you onLinkedIn.
So I'm Justin Wink, phd on allthe major socials, including
LinkedIn, instagram, all thosethings.
Justinwinkcom is great to findthe podcast stuff about my book.
I have some free offeringsthere there's yeah, that you can

(52:55):
get.

You have an excellent meditation.
I will say, because I calledyou when I did it, it was
excellent.

Yeah, thank you so much for finding that,
because now it's even easier tofind there under the free
offerings webpage.

Good and you're on the two-year anniversary of
your books.
I noticed you had some programsgoing on for packaging with the
book.

Yeah, so it's like the 99 cents for the
kindle and then everything'sliterally the lowest possible
price.

Amazon would allow it to be so yeah, all
right, it's a gift to people tobe able to read what you share
in the way that you share it.
So thank you.

Thank you so much.
And yeah, I'm open forone-on-one coaching, consulting
and then also giving talks toteams and groups and things as
well.

Wonderful, then I hope we see more of you talking
to teams and groups to makethis a better world.

Yeah, thank you so much, tanya.

So we have been here on KPCR 92.9 FM in Los
Gatos with sister station KMRT101.9 out of Santa Cruz.
We are signing off with JustinWaite and Tonya Long from RESET
with Tonya.

Have a wonderful rest of your week.
Is this just dead air right now?
Are we live?
Well, but they want to knowwhat's going on?

Are we clear?

We weren't when you asked.
I actually love hearing stufflike that, if I'm a listener.

Fun, I don't know .

The fun of the live.

And now I've got to check in.

Oh, you're so good at this.

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Episode Transcript

Host

Tonya J. Long

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