Teamwear, Trust, and Transformation: Shaun Mader’s Journey from Calcutta to Coaching

Episode Transcript
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Tonya J. Long (00:00):
Hello everyone and welcome to RESET with Tonya
on KPCR LP 92.9 FM.
And today we have anotherremote edition.
While I'm out in the woodsplaying on my Airstream, I have
arranged for a podcast withsomebody I met I don't know
about a year ago and he's justfascinating and I've been
waiting for an opportunity toget him onto the show.

(00:22):
He's in New York City so it'snot real easy for him to trot
down to Los Gatos with us.
So today I am just thrilled towelcome Shaun Mader to RESET.
Shaun is a leadership strategist, but he is also so much more.
He teaches corporate executivesand business people to move
from friction to flow and hebuilds cultures around trust.

(00:44):
But his path is not yourtypical corporate path, Shaun.
He's a brown belt in jujitsuJust came back from jujitsu
class, I believe.
He's also a celebratedphotographer and he captures the
most beautiful images of painand resilience in his work with
the Wounded Warriors Project andsome fascinating work he's done

(01:06):
over the years in Kolkata withthe Red Light District and with
children.
And that India connection, Ithink, is one of the things that
brought us together, because weare both affected by the time
that we spent in India.
Today he also other connections.
He has his own podcast, theTrusted Leader Podcast, and he's

(01:28):
writing his first book, and hehas not asked me for any advice
yet, so I'm wondering why that'sthe case.

Shaun Mader (01:33):
It's coming.

But he's writing his first book.
It will come, Shaun.
For me, is all about resilience, connectedness, trust and
creativity, and so I think we'regoing to have a really fun
conversation for all of you.
Shaun, welcome to RESET.

Thank you so much for having me and I will take
the flattery, as difficult as itis sometimes.

Manage Just manage.

Thank you, great to be here.

Good.
So talk about some of thethings you did, like the
friction to flow, consulting andyour athletic background, the
whole photography thing that Iwould really encourage people to
go to your website because it'sjust beautiful.
What are you working on now?
That's the most exciting thingfor you.

Well, you did mention the book that I'm
writing.
The title called Teamware,Teamware, Teamware, Teamware and
it came from a lot of coachingof groups and executives
consulting, and it came out of apoint of frustration actually

(02:37):
for anybody who's a coach orworks in that capacity
consulting.
I think we all have thisexperience of we start off with
these grand ambitions with aclient, but the reality is, is
there's just some new crisisthat pops up with a client?
But the reality is, is there'sjust some new crisis?
that pops up and there was so alot of our, our work that we're
aspiring to gets derailed byjust the normal flow of things
that pop up in a fast movingenvironment and I realized it
was really ended up was coachingpeople just to respond better

(03:00):
to crisis and the goal wasalways to get upstream, to get
above that, so you could beproactive and sort of constantly
feeling like a short order cook.
You know, how do you get yourteams to think more
strategically?
And yeah, I was working with aclient and it just kept
happening and it was anothercrisis that should have been

(03:22):
spotted weeks or months before.
Had now you know that couldhave been a symptom had gone
into a full blown crisis and,almost out of exasperation, said
well, what if I just sent yourpeople these questions Like what
should we have our eye on that?
if we don't deal with it now, itcould be a crisis in a month or

(03:43):
two and just started askingquestions about what they needed
for the week.
Simple things that allowed themto think out what they're
looking at and report.
And it was this small but verypowerful insight was that there
was no practice, there was noregular structure in place in
order to develop leaders and todevelop teams simultaneously on
the work that they're actuallyworking on their structure in
place in order to developleaders and to develop teams

(04:04):
simultaneously on the work thatthey're actually working on.
And that was the first insightthat gave rise to this idea of
teamware, which was a playoff.
We have our hardware, we haveour software, and if any one of
those systems broke down, we'dstop the work, we'd throw
everything at it, but peoplewill come out of a two-hour

(04:24):
planning session and nobody hasmore clarity than when they
walked in and people aren'ttaking charge of the situation,
and so I said, okay, there'ssomething here, and so we
created this process calledTeamFlow architecture, and it's
been really effective.
To help leaders get upstream seewhat's going on in their team.
To help leaders get upstreamsee what's going on in their

(04:45):
team.
We're also to develop theteam's ability to take a bunch
of individual contributors andget them to start to think like
a team and how they're going tofunction, and it's just been
phenomenal.
So it became time to write abook and it's almost done and
ready.
For you to give me somefeedback.

I've always said that people most of us don't
decide to write a book.
The book comes to us, and Ithink the book came to you.
I love the concept of softwarehardware teamware, so so I can't
wait to see it.
It's going to be great.

Yeah, I'm excited.

Yeah, you should be.
You should be.
It's a fun journey.
You've been on lots of journeys, right?
So if somebody looked at likejust a part of you, they might
see a martial artist, they mightsee a creative photographer,
they might see this, this wow,you know, new York City
leadership coach.

(05:38):
Notice how my head startedshaking when.
I did that.
Oh, so if they saw all thosethings, what part of your story
would you want them to see first?

That's a tough question To me.
They're all different chaptersbut they all have the same theme
underneath them and there'sbeen aions throughout all of
them, which is first, just likemy commitment to people and my
curiosity about people, and Ithink it used to be a point of

(06:19):
security.
I think, if I know, I struggledas a photographer in the
beginning, especially being herein New York.
There was an idea of what itlooked like to be a New York
photographer which was fashion.

Oh, yes, and.

I was in that world and I kind of looked the part,
but I never felt that that wasdoing what I thought it was
supposed to do.
And you know, you're supposedto carve out a look in a way
that that's, you know, that'sperson.
That's that experience.
And I noticed that over time alot of my stuff seemed a little

(06:51):
more introspective and darker.
And I'd get somebody in frontof me and I was not shooting big
, happy, like facade stuff, itwas always more introspective
stuff and it took me a while torealize that that's because
that's actually what I tend tofocus on and it's been the same,
whether it's been my personalpractices, my background in film

(07:13):
, photography and then even withcompanies.
It's always been the human sideof things.
There's always strategy,there's always technical stuff
to focus on, but what I realizeis people struggle with the
messiness of human being and tome that was where the gold was.
And for years I led these largetransformational leadership

(07:36):
programs where I got to becoached and then went on to lead
and coach many others from alldifferent backgrounds, went on
to lead and coach many othersfrom all different backgrounds.
And when you're in a settinglike that, when you have, you
know, college student next to agrandma, next to a CEO next to
somebody who's in between thingsand you start to see that

(07:57):
they're all dealing with thesame fundamental things in their
own way.
It really helps me dissolve theperception of these vast
differences between people.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I see that in the
photography.
Obviously it's core to thecoaching transformation work
that you do, but it's harder forme to imagine it in that
jiu-jitsu athleticism part ofyour life.
So has jiu-jitsu?

(08:32):
Because I think I don't knowmuch about jiu-jitsu it's a
martial art as far as I need togo.
But are there things aboutjiu-jitsu that has deepened your
appreciation for the humancondition or even RESET how you
look at things, like in themiddle of crisis?

Well, on a personal level, it's something that I
never ever ever thought I'd bedoing Interesting.
I had years of chronic pain andmigraines that doctors couldn't
figure out.
I thought it was just somepermanent condition I had.
I got very used to just alwayshaving something wrong with me
that nobody could figure out, soI assumed there was something

(09:11):
broken with me, and I actuallyhad some people around me who
were really into it who kepttelling me I got to get into
this and I would go watch, and Iwas like there's no way in hell
I would ever do that.
My body was my enemy and Ispent years just doing anything
I could to get some relief.
And so, first off, there's beena huge mental transformation

(09:34):
from somebody who was fearfuland avoidance and and and and um
I mean even my relationshipsare like other men, you know.
You know men don't want to bedominated by another man.

There's a lot of psychology that goes into the
dynamics yeah, I think there'ssomething people don't know
about you you're super tall yeah, yeah, okay, so that's even
worse.
Yeah, six, four, but okay, andbecause to me that's an
important point of thedomination thing is when you're,

(10:07):
when you're that tall, youdon't even have to speak.
They don't see any of yourbrain before.
Most people are immediatelystruck by your physicality
because you're taller thannormal.

Well, and you know, at this point I'm like I'm even
a little bit, but back earlyearlier on in life, where I
think we often develop our senseof who we are and who I am in
relationship to other people.
You know, I grew 12 inches inone year and you know, I think I
was something like 6'3" 155pounds when I went to college.
I was this string bean thatlooked like I was 12.

155.
Oh my God.

I mean, it was On a 6'3 frame yeah.
So I mean any idea of anything'sphysical happening, would you
know, kind of gets you at yourcore.
You know that you wouldn't knowwhat to do.
So that, I think, is a hugepsychic weight on any human
being.
But if you think about men inparticular, so I absolutely know

(11:08):
that world in best from yearsof never feeling like I had that
.
So for me, the transformationwith martial arts I mean I
credit some people that I metalong the way who are really
great it's allowed me theconfidence, confidence that
comes obviously with knowing youknow, okay, you can probably
defend yourself and defend otherpeople if something ever

(11:30):
happened.
But that's never what it'sabout.
It's something that you show upto day after day.
You start off.
You know jiu-jitsu for anybody.
We're not going to go down thatrabbit hole.
It's a very nerdy rabbit hole,but it's what happened on the
ground.
It's grappling.
People call it like tests withthe body.

Okay.

It's kind of like a language, if you try to learn a
foreign language or jump intopeople who are fluent speakers
and you don't think of that, butwith your body, and so when you
start.
it pushes every single buttonabout your own insecurities.
You're being tossed around likea sack of potatoes by people

(12:12):
who are smaller than you and yougo through that.
I mean it's like anybody who'sgot a fragile ego doesn't last.
You have to understand that.
Like I'm going to gain anymastery of something, the first
levels are just appreciating howlittle you know.
You have to understand that,like I'm going to gain any
mastery of something.
The first levels are justappreciating how little you know
and so, yeah, like I think weused to watch UFC and I watch

(12:33):
all that, but it's theincremental practice of showing
up every day and the kind ofhumility that it takes and
there's such a deep camaraderieand respect for your other
people who also choose to dothat because it's not easy, but
it becomes addictive becauseyou're operating in service of
each other and making each otherbetter.

(12:54):
And there's, I think, if wethink about, like a lot of the
you know, we have a lonelinessepidemic that even the Surgeon
General says is on par withsmoking up to 15 cigarettes a
day.

Wow, I had not heard that stat.

That came from the Surgeon General and you know,
when we think about it, like, Ilook back and I'm like, oh, I
spent years instead of beingalone at night watching Netflix,
I'm with a group of people thatwere working on stuff or
physically connecting, andthere's something that happened
in that setting that is so muchbigger than you know being able

(13:32):
to beat somebody up.
That's the point, yeah, andoutput, yeah.

People need to be together and they need to be in
physical contact with eachother.
Most of my Bay Area buddies,and probably people like you,
see me on LinkedIn a lot I'mknown for like group selfies,
but people, after a couple ofyears of that, have reflected.
People need touch, people needto be in community, and me, you

(13:59):
know, giving everyone a reasonto compress into a small space
and laugh and celebrate who weare and where we are has become
like part of the fabric of alarge group of people and it's
how we record happiness, how wesee each other, and so I do
think that, like a lot of peoplehave asked me, you're out all
the time networking.
How do you get anything done?

(14:20):
And I'm like networking is myfamily Network, how I, you know,
combat the, the lonelinessthing, because I always have
somebody to go be with andthere's always going to be
somebody I know there that'shappy to see me there, and I
think we are all looking for theways that we can show up and be
nourished and that we cannurture, and so and just reflect

(14:43):
and I'm like, yeah, part of me,like I have you and I talk,
like you know.

Part of me, like I have you and I talk about this.
You know I have all my littlethings and I can go down that
road, but very rooted in reality, the science that we've only
been able to really generate inthe last decade or so with the
breakthroughs in theneuroscience and our technology
around it.
I had to learn this the hardway, you know I had really

(15:06):
physical issues that had noanswer and you kind of grab on
to whatever starts to give you arelease and over time you start
to figure out like, okay, thisis not just this, it's not just
yoga, it's not just this.
And even the science now isshowing that something happens
when you're around people wherethere is trust, where there's a

(15:30):
sense of mutuality andcamaraderie, that starts to
literally light up the brain,the heart, your endocrine system
and brings about healthierstates.
And you have people out therelike Gabor Mate is a writer and
speaker who reframed addiction,for instance that even addiction

(15:52):
is not being addicted to thedrug.
It's.
The drug is the thing thatallows you to get some escape
from the unwanted feelings ofisolation, shame, depression,
and so in all the work I've donewhether it's been in
transformational leadershipprograms, working with teens
what happens just at Jiu-Jitsuclass is that there is just a

(16:14):
far more complex andsophisticated symphony that's
going on inside of all of us.
That comes about when we aretogether in a safe environment,
even if you're doing stuff likebeating each other up, and that
that's a big.
It's more than inside all of us.

You know this.

Right.

It's the connections, it's that I'm going
to say, it's that quantum fieldthat exists from San Jose to
Manhattan, that exists from usover to Calcutta.
That quantum field feeds all ofus if we nurture it in the
right ways.

Yeah, and you know I love talking about this stuff.
You love talking about this.
Some people might just be like,what the hell are you talking
about?
But whether you get it Today.

we're all here to learn.

Well, right, and whether you choose to look at it
through the lens of the quantumfield and all of the sciences
that are opening up there.
Some people, I think, find thatvery practical and like, hey,
that actually allows me toindulge.
It explains a lot, yeah, butit's also like you know.
Just look at what happens ifyou're at home alone and you're
in your head or you're stressingout about something and you get
a call from your best friend,and how quickly your biology

(17:24):
changes.
Or if you're stressed out aboutmoney and suddenly somebody
says, hey, we're doing thatcontract, and suddenly you see a
bunch of money going to yourbank account.
You can start to see that,whatever we think that this body
and mind and whateverconcoction of spirit or neuro
biochemistry is, that there's alot more going on.

(17:46):
And I know, when I work withteams it's like well, are you
just a bunch of individualsshowing up to work or are you
actually a team who's out toaccomplish something?
And when they start to identifywell, what do?
What are the behaviors that we,that make us to work best
together?
It's all obvious to them, yeah,but then you know what are the
ones that make us to work best?

together.
It's all obvious to them.

Yeah, but then you know what are the ones that
detract from that.
They all know.
Once they start to actuallyname it and start to commit to
it, a lot of the technical stuffgoes away.
Because why?
Because there's something elsethat starts to happen and
whether you want to call it, youknow resonance or we all know

(18:26):
that feeling and I think thatpart of what's just happened
over the years in our society isthat we've all kind of assumed
that that's not available and itis.

Yeah, yeah, I love it.
We're going to do a quickstation ID and a call out for
Kpcrlp 92.9 fm from los gatos.
I'm so proud of this communityradio station.
We've added six new shows inthe last I don't know two or
three weeks, so there's been ageneration of interest in in

(18:58):
what we do.
It's a lot of creative musicstuff I don't listen to, but I
but I'm entertained by andwonderful people shepherding
music and interviews and topics.
So kpcr92.9fm and that's atkpcrorg online that you can
check it out 24 hours a day andsee what we're up to.

(19:18):
We'd love for you to do that.
So, Shaun, I want to go back tothe comment earlier.
I'm not going to stick there.
It's just a set about yourheight.
I had a woman that came to workfor me 20 something years ago.
She was about six foot tall andshe slouched, strong

(19:39):
personality athlete, but she sheslouched intentionally to not
be so tall.
She keep her, keep her in theSouth.
This is when I was in Tennesseeand you know when leaders would
come in the room you'd stand upto greet someone.
She never stood up to greetsomeone.
She did not want to tower overthe at the time men who were at

(19:59):
the top of the company and shejust she confided in me because
I actually coached her on.
I said you know, you reallyshould.
You know, show some poise andstand up.
And she said it's not aboutpoise, it's about not wanting to
put them in a position of notseeing me the way I want to be
seen.
And we worked through thattogether.
We partnered on that.

(20:20):
Just reflecting that you havelearned similarly, hoping
strategies that may diminish you, that help other people deal
with their own insecurities.
Frankly, I think about you as aphotographer and I think about
you seeing through the samescenarios with other people that

(20:40):
you shoot.
I remember I haven't looked atyour website in a long time, but
I remember a beautiful blackand white of an African-American
woman who had had a doublemastectomy.
Remember that Painful shot towatch for anyone who's had
anyone affected by that, and yetit was so beautiful and so

(21:00):
beautifully shot.
You saw through to her.
So as a photographer, you haveto notice what's not seen
through the lens.
You have to see into people.
So how does that shape yourability to do that in remarkable
ways?
How does that shape how youlook into organizations and

(21:22):
people in the business context.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, it's tricky becausethere's the side about myself
first right, my own relationshipto myself.
Yes, would I want to startthere, because that kind of
dictates everything else.

Okay.

Like I said, yeah, everybody thinks I'm tall, born
all that stuff now, but that wasnever my experience of myself.

I'd love it.

I had somebody point out recently, who's known
me for a long time, thatwhenever I was standing in a
crowd of people I used to spreadmy legs out really wide because
they were bringing me down totheir level.
And I saw somebody do it oh,okay.
I saw somebody else doing it.
I was doing the exact samething that I know I used to do
and it looks utterly ridiculousBecause it's super wide, but it
drops you by a few inches.

Right, it definitely drops, it's geometry.

In the moment I'm very comfortable.
It's a break down, I don't.
But when I saw it it struck meas so odd that that person would
do that.
And yet you know, obviouslyI've done that many times.
And also you know, look, I livein New York City now, but I'm
from Wisconsin, I'm from theMidwest and I just grew up in a
culture that seemed to reallypush back against anybody who

(22:33):
stood out, like there's anagreement reality they call.
You know, some people call itthe tall poppy.
You know, the poppy that sticksits head up gets knocked down.
I have never felt that I hadthat wanted to brag about things
or put myself to the center.
So it was years of inaccurateself-perception.

(22:56):
Yeah, like you know, I coachedsome people who are kind of now
that I've transformed all that.
I coached some people who arepretty dominant males and
they're always surprised when Ipoint out that people might be
intimidated by them.
And then somebody had to bouncethat back to me one time and I'm
like me, like what are youtalking about?
So, um, yeah and that's justthe physical.

(23:18):
The physical imposition couldbe a thing.
Yes, yeah, but I think thatbecause I came from such a place
of insecurity, um, it was hardfor me to ever get too big of a
head about these things.
And so in the photographyaspect, um, you have the actual
thinking of the camera.

(23:38):
Is the the shortest part of theshoot?
oh right, you know it's like,yeah, you said your likes and
you do all that stuff which youknow the technical side.
But if you're going to do aportrait setting, and especially
a creative portrait of somebody, it's imperative that they it's
inherently an unnatural thingto do a photo shoot.

Yes, yes.

So how do you get the person feeling natural?
Just getting to know them andgetting their experience and
having them have the experience,that you get their experience
and that they get to be humanaround you.
They don't have to have theirshield up, their pretense, their
worries, their concerns, and soI don't know, in some ways

(24:27):
maybe I come off as tall andintimidating to other people and
I think other people like Iwould hope that I make them
comfortable enough that thatdoesn't even show up.
Yeah, we never really know whatpeople think of us anyway.

Well, I think about you then being in Calcutta
with sex workers and childrenwho are in that region, in the
red light district in Calcutta,and you have to have something
about your soul that reachespeople, because I see those
communities as being veryvulnerable in that part of the
world Incredibly vulnerable andyou found ways to document their

(25:01):
resilience and their beauty.
And I mean, for me that's justremarkable, because it's almost
like living that life is a lotof loss, a lot of dreams that
never happened.
And you're helping them rebuildtheir identity by shooting and
capturing images that serve toelevate them, that serve to

(25:25):
bring their picture to the world.
So what did that experienceteach you?
Because there's one thing to doa portrait, and it be that
contrived environment.
There's another to go intosomeone's I'll say home, is a
broad community statement.
To go into someone's home thatis unlike anything we've ever
seen and try to bring theirhumanity to the photos.

Yeah, it's been a whole process over there.
I wound up there by a completeaccident.
One time I got really sick inIndia.
They thought I had tuberculosis, I was down, I had finally
gained some weight, but then gotdropped back down.
I got down from C4.

I didn't know TB still existed.
Now I sound really naive, butit does yeah.
Yeah, I had gotten sick.

That's the whole other story about how that
happened.
But I wound up in Calcutta toget medical attention.
I was down to 155 pounds afterproudly, you know finally
putting on some weight later inlife.
The athletes threw me in anisolation ward.
They were freaked out and itturns out I was not.
I did not have TB.
I did have a severe lunginfection and I was really

(26:30):
grappling with this choice of Icould go back to New York where
I was kind of like a celebphotographer shooting fashion
weeks.
Like it was.
It was starting to get old andso I could go back to that or
just stay here and see whathappens.
And Calcutta is this.
It's the former capital ofIndia.

(26:51):
It's really wild.
It's a sleepy but massive town,millions and millions of people
.
It's very poor and it's alsobecause of Mother Teresa's
legacy a lot of Westerners doingservice work there.
And inadvertently, essentiallygoing out every day to this
project and through that Istarted to inadvertently do a

(27:13):
bit of a survey about socialimpact projects what works, what
doesn't, and have a documentsaying at heart and toward the
end of one trip I met theSpanish nurses who said, oh,
we're helping an organizationout in the Red Light District,
you should come there.
And I went down and it was nota topic that I was unfamiliar

(27:37):
with, but I'd never seenanything like this yeah these
twisty turny back alleys with.
You know, people lived in onesmall room.
That was their kitchen, theirliving room, their bed,
everything.
And I got introduced to a womannamed ormy boss, who's the
founder and director of newlight, which is located right in
the heart in their living room,their bed, everything.
And I got introduced to a womannamed Ormi Basu, who's the
founder and director of NewLight, which is located right in
the heart of the red lightdistrict.

(27:58):
Fast forward, I'm a boardmember for the US organization
that funds, you know, collectsfunds over here.
I'm going over there inNovember for their 26th
anniversary.
Nice, yeah, I've been, so I'mkind of locked in with them.
But in the beginning, though,we didn't know any of this.
I was just this newphotographer.
I was trying to get a breakfrom all of my film production

(28:18):
work.
Okay, and she said you know,look, I can give you my blessing
, but you're going to have toforge your own relationships
with these people.
And it just meant showing upevery day, presence, of being
there.
I'd be tutoring their kidssometimes, who were, you know,
being housed and cared for atNew Light, and it took time,

(28:43):
yeah, and little by little,people saw that what I was doing
was bringing dignity to theirexperience.
I would make some of theteenagers my photo assistants
and translators, and so thatbecame really cool.
I'm friends with some of thenon-grown adults and I'm still
friends with them today.
I'm in touch now with kids whoare full-grown adults that I've

(29:04):
known since they were in diapers.
Wow, yeah, it's really, reallythat's pretty cool offensive
time right.
But there was this one woman wholived right near the entrance
to new life who I saw probablymore than anybody.
I knew her daughter, I tutoredher daughter in reading.
But every time I came by her tooffer to take a photo, she just

(29:27):
waved me away with disgust likeget out, get out of here.
And I was like yeah, no.
To the point where it became abit of a like what's up, Like,
come on, what did I do?

Yeah, right, right.

And one day, when I was out with his niece he's now
grown and at the time he's ateenager I'm like, would you ask
her what is up, what is goingon?
So he translates for me and hefinally translates back and he
says she says every time youwant to take a photo, she's not
dressed up.

See.
I'm like oh my story for life,because we all think someone
else thinks X of me, when themajority of the time, truth is
that it's about them.

It's always.
I mean, it was so obvious.
The second it was said I didn'tknow the difference.
I was like hey, it's a grittyphoto.

And your heart didn't care.
Your heart didn't care if shewas wearing a burlap sack or the
most exquisite silk.
You saw her, I was her, but shewanted toquisite silk.
You saw her, I was her, but shewanted to be.
You wanted to be seen.

If she's going to ask me to take her photo.
You wanted to be pretty and I,just once I got it, I'm like,
thank God I have a trans on mycar.
I'm so sorry, I didn't eventhink of that.
I will never ask you to take aphoto again, but if you would
like to, you tell me when.
And but if you would like to,you tell me when.
And you get to tell me how itgoes.
And I remember her.
She just gave a long pause andyou can see she's thinking about

(30:57):
it and she finally just saidcome back tomorrow afternoon.
And the next day she was alldressed up.
I love it.
I've photographed her many timesnow and it's funny Sometimes
now, since COVID and all that,it's been a long time.
There'll be gats, there'll begaps, there'll be new people in
that area.
So when I show up again, againI mean the roof lines are up to

(31:17):
here on me I'm always trying notto cut my face on all this
stuff.
And you know people have acuriosity about, well, who's
this guy?
And there's just plenty of themlike, oh, no, no.
And she's always the first onehe goes she goes, and she's
always the first one.
No he's one of us.
He goes, she goes but it'ssomebody who I thought aided my
guts and it was just andhonestly.
That was one of those sparkmoments that informed what I do

(31:39):
professionally, because it'slike Right now, yeah, if you
think of like a lot of ourcoaching calls and what we're
dealing with when we listen topeople, yeah, most of what
screws people up in businessesis a lot of the interpersonal
stuff.

Oh, 100%.
Never the technology, never theproduct, always the people.

Some incident like that person did not care about
what I needed.
I have to now protect myself.
I start to withdraw, I startlooking for another job because
these people don't care about me.
This is for.
That person always does thisand people start to build these
stories in their head and itstarts to cause division.
And well, we're told that inbusiness that that's not

(32:21):
appropriate and I'm like, no,you need that.
It's costing companies so muchmoney.
Retention, what it takes torecruit in, get some at the
speed to replace them again,what happens when the knowledge
goes out the door Like these arethings that are never captured
in a P&L report, but it's justwhat's happening in between

(32:44):
people and somehow.
I think that's something we justlost.
Yeah, we just kind of lost that.
Business is not a category thatabsolves you from humanity.
In fact, I think we're facingmore and more now, especially
with AI, especially with morecomplexity in places and more
external change, that unless youactually are a unit moving

(33:07):
forward together and know how tosolve issues amongst yourselves
and how you are going tofunction in difficulty, I mean
we can't sustain the level ofstrain, burnout, attention,
fragmentation that's been goingon, and yet I think the
solutions are right there infront of us.
And that's back alleys ofCalcutta.

(33:28):
I never thought would beinforming my coaching and
consulting practice.

Yeah, well, I go back to this woman who didn't
want you to take her photo, andI think that you have now,
through many iterations of photosessions with her, you've
helped create a story around herand all the people that you
photograph, to create a storyaround her and all the people

(33:56):
that you photograph.
But do you think that story canRESET people, that the
narrative that we createvisually or in our thought,
leadership and writing, do youthink that changing the story or
amplifying the elements of thestory about where people want to
be can RESET people and teams?

I mean look, I'm a perfect example.
What we just talked aboutbefore my story was that my body
was broken.

Something wrong with me.

So when I was more of a student of these
transformational educationtechniques stuff that I later
went on to lead, it dawned on meone day.
You know, we all live inside ofstories.
We come up with stories aboutwho that person is and that's
how we treat them.

If anybody recognizes this, we're having a
landmark moment, we're bothlandmarks.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, so it's okay, that's a good program.
So it's.

Yeah, it was amazing.
I mean, it's the we, I meanit's the word.
Transformation in our culturestems from them, and their
methodologies are some of thebest I've ever seen.
But if you think about it, yeah, we all we think they're real,

(35:13):
but really, theirinterpretations and stories
about what happened and why I amthe way I am or the way that
person is, or if you listen toanybody tell you a story about a
conflict they're having, youwill hear that they only tell
you a narrative based on thelittle bits of information they
have, and oftentimes, and almostalmost all the time, you find
out, no, the story, what wasreally going on, was actually
much more complex or verydifferent than that story.
So all that to say is we alllive inside a story about who we
are, who other people are, andso for me, yeah, I had to catch

(35:38):
at one point that, oh my God, Ikeep saying my body's my enemy.

Right.

That sounds like self-fulfilling prophecy.
Like you know, I gotta, I gottado something about that.
I remember the moment I'm likewell, no, I created a new story,
which is my body can heal andwouldn't you?
Know it, it started healing andso, you know, fast forward.
You know I'm doing morephysical stuff than I could in
my 20s and having more fun andall of that.

(36:07):
So, yes, stories operate at theindividual level, relational
level like who you are for me orto me my idea, and we have very
little awareness that we arecreating our reality.
We are creating how peopleinteract with us.
All you got to do is go to aroom and why is somebody's
friends with that person?
The other person thinks it'sawful, Like well, guess what?

I remember I've done a thousand Orange Theory
classes and I remember this newwoman coming into our our you
know the possessive our Saturdaymorning class super muscular,
super well-built, wearing aweight belt, and for people that
weight belt is like a wide beltthat supports your back when

(36:52):
you're lifting.
That is not the scene at OrangeTheory.
People don't do that.
You've done Orange Theory.
We have so many things.

I don't know.

But, yeah, but, but it Immediately like all the
women you could tell we werejust shooting looks at each
other like who is she?
And she wore lifting gloves.
I mean, in orange theory youcan lift like up to 50 pound
hand weight so you can getpretty, or even there's bigger
ones, but I never picked upbigger.
But it's not a wear weight,lifting gloves, wear a belt.

(37:22):
And people were kind of and Ithink we were just jealous
because she was so physique wise, perfectly built, and we were
all kind of giving her a hardtime amongst ourselves.

Right.

Not accepting her into our little coffee clutch
of Saturday morning, 9.30 am.
People who had been together forhundreds of classes, weekend
warriors, and found out laterthat she had had I think she was
in a car accident and hadmassive back issues and like
debilitating spine issues andhad healed herself, had come and

(37:57):
was a, I'll say,quasi-professional weightlifter.
But she always protectedherself because that was her
sensitivity after being harmed,hurt, you know, through
something you know.
And so she was just trying tobe there to do a workout and
there we were all kind of likekerfuffled because the hen house

(38:17):
was active, because she waswearing exercise equipment
Equipment you know it's whatpeople need.
So stories we create aroundpeople when we don't know their
story, and that's why it's soimportant for people like you
and me to help other peopleshine the light on the beauty of
their stories.
That's why I think we do aservice to the world by helping

(38:41):
the world see.
Everybody's not what they looklike.
They're not the beanpole kidthat's always rubbing his head.
You know that there's so muchmore than that.
If they can't amplify it, thenit's our service to do that.

You know, I had just an example of this, so we
talked about the book and whatI'm working on, but the
methodology, team flowarchitecture I create custom
cadences of questions that goout to team members and the
leader gets the answers back.
Yep, and I was dealing with aclient who they said hey, we're
coming out of bankruptcy.
People have been reallystressed out doing double duty.

(39:15):
We would like to do somethingabout that, but I don't know
what I said.
That'll be some of the question.
And so the first week we did it, one of the questions was
stating what I just did we'recoming out of this period.
We want to check in with you ona scale of one to 10.
What's your stress?
Immediately, one of the repliescame back nine out of 10.

(39:35):
On my coaching call with theleader, I said what did you do?
Well, I went and spoke to herand she said the first thing.
She said well, thanks, just somuch for even asking.
He's like well, great, what canwe do?
Talk to me, you know he'sreally great with her and they
had their conversation and hetells me, like, but the funny
thing is, later that afternoonshe came back to me and she says

(39:56):
you know I was thinking aboutour conversation.
I think I might create a lot ofthat stress myself and it was
just this moment of like just tobe asked, just to have it
dignified.
Now, what ended up happening?
I just found out because Ivisited a group of these folks
on a Zoom call recently.
That woman was on the call andshe told the story from her

(40:19):
perspective because it turnedout that just the notion of
being asked and listening andhaving her experience she had
not told anybody, but shestarted giving my questions out
to her team because she realizedI want to be that person for
other people too, and shestarted telling her own stories

(40:39):
of what her team came to herwith when she started asking
them and again, it was just inthat asking.
They're now talking about theirrelationships and working out
how they work together and itwas just a simple, fundamental
thing.
That is, and it goes back.
There's a guest I had on mypodcast, rob T, wrote a book

(41:00):
called Leading with Questions.

Yep.

We talked about that a few months ago, yeah, and
you know there's also a coupleother books out there and you
know a lot of our background isinquiry based, socratic inquiry,
that the question that sheoftentimes more important than
the answer, and so we, I thinkwe're oftentimes in a work

(41:24):
circumstance or a family dynamicor a relationship dynamic, yep,
where we just interact with.
Well, this is the way that itis and we don't really think
that it could be anythingdifferent.
Sometimes it's because we get abig payoff for keeping our
complaints there.
We love to have our complaintsand we love to be up here and
these dumb people or whatever itis.

(41:45):
When you start asking questions, things start flowing and start
moving, and it's funny thatthat quality we're talking about
between people, when the thingswe really love is just asking
those questions, to be such afundamental access to that and
it's just so simple.

I love it.
All right, it's time foranother station break.
So, everyone, you are listeningto KPCRLP 92.9 FM out of Los
Gatos, but also a couple ofsister stations.
You're listening to us today onKMRTLP 101.9 FM out of Santa
Cruz, which has to be beautifultoday because it is a gorgeous

(42:28):
day.
Day because it is a gorgeousday.
And, as of just recently,you're listening to us on KVBELP
91.1 FM out of Portland.
Portland, we opened up astation in Portland, so it's
very exciting to be expandingour reach, and especially for
the musical programming we doand the people programming that
I'm so fond of that we're ableto share that with such a broad

(42:50):
audience, that I'm so fond ofthat we're able to share that
with such a broad audience.
So back to you, shawn Mader, onRESET with Tonya.
I like a lot of your thoughtleadership that is not just
about people or teams, but it'sabout society, because I think
you have a fundamental beliefthat working more at the root
level causes shifts in societyand that's why you do what you

(43:14):
do.
So what do you think the RESETis that society needs right now?
Because clearly, I think mostof us think we're headed to one
and that we need it.
I'd be curious about yourobservations about the RESET
that you think society needs inorder to be the best we can.

(43:37):
Yeah, it's a profound question,so I don't know if I'm going to
nail it on the first take here,you know, Because whatever you
see and whatever you think hasvalue, and you study this and
you study people, so you have amore informed opinion than most.

Well, so thank you, and yes, I do think about this
a lot and I think to answer thatquestion, we have to recognize
that society has gone through anincredible amount of change in
a very short amount of time.

Absolutely yes.

But that it's not just about the internet and
about the iPhone and all thatstuff.
If we back up just anotherhundred years, you talk about
humanity that was largelyagrarian, where people's rhythms
were more in tune withfactories and a more machine
world.
So in addition to the changesthat we've personally witnessed

(44:38):
in our lifetimes, we kind ofcame into this world already a
bit disconnected and with what Ilike to call like a limited
menu of what we even have tochoose from.
So if we start to now fastforward to today and we look at
let's take, for instance, howmuch time we spend on devices

(44:59):
it's hard to appreciate thelimitations in what we can even
see and interact with.
Like, where would we even lookfor a RESET?
Most of the places we wouldlook that seem logical will
provide no answers.
And if anybody's ever heard theterm, the medium is the message

(45:22):
by Marshall McLuhan.
It's one of these kind of likephrases that I think I've
thought about for decades nowand it just keeps getting deeper
.
But if you think about it, theinternet is still all ones and
zeros.
There's only certain thingsthat can be digitized.
And it's a two-dimensional look, it's an audio and visual

(45:43):
format.
So we're now in this world ofAI, which is now compute, taking
in all of the data on theinternet, which is vast and wide
, but it's still just a verynarrow spectrum of experience of
life.
Okay, it's just the audio andvisual component.
So oftentimes I find that whenwe think of like what's the

(46:08):
RESET that we need, we look towhat we can see, we look to what
we can know, but how we come toknow things has become very
engineered and narrowed down.
So imagine it's kind of like Ithink life is like this with
blinders on, I don't see asolution inside of these
blinders.
I don't know that I haveblinders on, but I don't see

(46:29):
anything.
And so for thinking from thatperspective, you're like well,
what's the RESET?
What do we really need?
Oftentimes it's never going toappear to us because we think
it's going to exist inside thisvery limited spectrum that our
life and culture has whittled usdown to and, at the same time,
I would say that the solution isstaring us right in the face
the entire time and the RESET isus reconnecting with ourselves

(46:55):
and each other.
I have an unconventionaleducational background, but one
way to talk about it has beenvery heavy on the humanities.
And we can look at the last 30to 40 years, where the
humanities became a throwawayterm that most people would mock
.
You know, when I went, when Ibecame a literature major, going
to college, the joke I heardmost was do they teach you how

(47:18):
to say would you like fries withthat?
Because it was so disregardedand we qualified to do anything,
is very dismissive.
But as we find ourselves now ina place where we are repeating
things that have happenedhistorically time and time again
and you watch as a populationthat is fundamentally illiterate

(47:39):
about those topics go makeclassic mistakes over and, over
and over again and fall for thesame tricks of manipulation and
propaganda and we've been herebefore.
But how would you know that?
Well, these fundamentalquestions are in the humanities,
and somewhere along the way wegave up on the idea that we

(48:04):
could have a say in how oursociety goes, and so I think the
first part of a RESET is therecognition that most of the
world we as humans have createdfor us.
We serve it.
We created markets, we createdquarterly profits.
Now we built a system where weserve the market.

(48:26):
The market does not serve us.
We created this technology, butwe serve the technology.
The companies making money offthis need our attention to feed
its algorithms to make itsprofits.
It's not necessarily there toserve us and so, right in front
of us, I think, is this reallyobvious but hard to grasp

(48:46):
concept that the only wayquality of life gets created and
built is when we see that ourlives gets better when we're not
as focused on ourselves andthat we're operating in service
of others.

Right, right and I agree.

There's this video.
I recommend everybody go Googlethis and look it up.
It's called the long spoonallegory.
I don't know what thebackground is on it, but it's a
maybe a two minute long video uh, animated.
And it's these emaciated, bleak, sad looking people all around
a cauldron of soup, but theyhave these massive, massive

(49:25):
spoons, so big can't reach theirown mouths and no matter how
much food they have, they'rewasting away until one person
has the idea to take a spoon andthe other people help support
that spoon as he reaches acrossand feeds the person across from
him.
And then everybody gets theidea Wow, suddenly like wait a

(49:45):
second.
Amazing.
These spoons aren't just for me, they're for feeding other
people, and as I feed others, Itoo get fed and see the whole
thing come into color, fill out,and I kind of think it's a
really fitting metaphor for ourmodern life that has we somehow
created the means to sow our ownseparateness, our own isolation
, our own anxiety, our owndepression?

(50:07):
And I think people often findit.
They resist admitting that,they resist reaching out to
people, like there's some shamein staying.
I want more connection in mylife, I want more love, I want
more friendship Like I'm workingso hard but I'm not seeing the,
I'm not actually any happierfor it, and that's almost like a

(50:30):
point of shame in our cultureto say like something's wildly
off here.
So I think when we start tostart there, then people as
individuals can start to seelike wait a second, I have gifts
to contribute here.
I'm really interested in.
Like look, I teach jujitsu oncea week but I know the
difference it's made for some ofthe students and it's something

(50:53):
that gives me so much pleasure.
It's like you can give in somany different ways and boost
the quality of life, and that'swhat we're built for.
You're supposed to feel goodwhen you make other people feel
good.

Yeah.
So one of the ways that you'regiving back is writing your book
.
I don't think any normal peoplewe're normal people I don't
think normal people go on thejourney of writing a book unless
there's something theydesperately want to say and to
share.
And writing a book, it forcesclarity.
You know, when all those thingsrolling around in your

(51:26):
experience need to be clear foryou so that you can clearly
deliver for other people.
So I'm curious what have youdiscovered about yourself in
that search for clarity as itrelates to writing your book?

Oh, I mean, it's been another.
It's just been another processof I talk about the white belt
you know starting out and you'reall over the place and you're
Yep.
Classic white belt you knowstarting out and you're all over
the place and you're Yep.
Classic white belt is like theyexpend a ton of energy
accomplishing that a lot.
Right, and that's how this wasjust yet another topic where I
had to start at the bottom andfigure it out, and what I had to
first grapple with is there'scertain things that occur to me

(52:05):
very naturally, that are obvious, and but that is a product of
connecting a lot of pieces froma lot of different influences
and it's simply not enough tohave that thought in my head and
it doesn't actually amount toanything unless I can make it
accessible to other people.

(52:27):
Yeah, and that became the kindof guiding discipline.
In writing the book I get allthis stuff, but the second I
start writing it's all over theplace.
Well, it's a little bit of this, and then if you connect that
to this and that would becompletely unintelligible for
somebody, so there's the waythat I might speak about it to
somebody who I don't know isinto the same area where you can

(52:51):
kind of just have these strangelittle meta conversations and
be tangential.
That was just completelyinsufficient to make something
that I could put in somebody'shand and say hey, here's a
blueprint for you as a leaderand your people.
So, boy, it was a humblingprocess.
I'm in the home stretch, Ithink I've at least got a blue

(53:15):
belt here you found your path ofclarity.
Yeah, yeah, and but it really,and it is in service and it's
totally in service, and butthat's what I had to keep in
mind, like how this I can't beentertained with my own ideas,
but that's really.
It's entertaining to me, butsomebody else can't grasp it.
I've failed and that became thediscipline and I hope we're in

(53:37):
the home stretch here.
I hope that, with regularity,if somebody, if I put this in
somebody's hand and they read it, that it's going to be, it's
going to make sense.
It's going to be obviousthey're going to be able to
incorporate into their life andbecause that's what's going to
make sense, it's going to beobvious they're going to be able
to incorporate into their life,and because that's what's going

(53:57):
to make a difference.

Good, good, but humbling.
Yes, have you done improv?
I don't remember if we'vetalked about that.

No, but I technically have a theater
degree.
I love comedy and improv.
I hope we're not doing it.

You give a lot of gifts.
I know you're familiar with theimprov concept of gifts.
When you give people a hook tocontinue the conversation and
you naturally give gifts incontinuing the conversation.
Oh, thank you.
I was hoping we weren't goingto get in.
The spot Was leading to I thinkit was the in-service of

(54:29):
concept, but I like to end mypodcast with a lightning round.
That's something.
I've been doing for a bit now.
So I ask quick questions foryou know, hopefully quick
answers, but the way I buildrelationships, they're never
quick, they're always a littlebit of a dialogue.
So let's hit maybe I don't knowfour or five lightning
questions for you.

Okay, I'll do my best.

Clearly, I love your photography because it's so
differentiated.
So what's the picture that youwant to take that you've not
taken yet?

I don't know, because the part that is so
pleasant to me is can I tune inenough to discover it in the
moment, and it revealed itselfversus me facing it, and so I
don't know, maybe it's yet to becreated.

I'll take that.
I'll take that, and it is theart of expression.
So it's not just the, what Ilike to call the coffee table
books and the photos that arejust these big, picturesque
views off the top of MountKilimanjaro.
That's not the photo I'mlooking for.
The photo I'm looking for isit's indescribable, because it's
the.
It's the one that absolutelycaptures the essence of

(55:49):
someone's soul.
And I'll tell you this youcan't plan for that.

I'll tell you this I always used to look at the
people who I look up to andassume that they just had
something that I didn't thatthey had and that everything
that.
There's a particularphotographer, albert Watson,
whose work I've just lovedforever.
You look at his work.
You're like, wow, like I couldnever do something like that.
And so this thing that reallylit, opened it up for me, was

(56:18):
that a famous photo that he haswas by accident.
He said I've been shooting fortwo days and didn't like
anything, and then the model wasactually offset and she just
happened to see her head in ashadow and saw this outline and
he's like that's the shot overthere after two days on a vogue
shoot.
And I was like, okay, two dayswhere he's not even liking
anything.
And I'm like, and that's howit's gone, is that everything I

(56:39):
planned?
Yeah, great, you can fulfill onit, but it's always the shot
that I could never see coming.
That is the one that actuallymeant something the most.
But you kind of had to be inthere and you kind of had to be
open to something unexpectedhappening.

Okay, I love it Back to our shared, beloved
India.
What's the moment that is themost indelible memory?
You have that kind of openedyour heart in India.

I used to go and live like a monk's period of
time in between shootinggangster hip hop videos and
weird stuff like that.

Whatever I could do to pay the rent in New.

York City.
I remember I was living in anashram and I had an opportunity
to do something cool.
It was like a motorcycle tripup to the headwaters of the
Ganges.
It sounded cool and badass.
But there was another option togo do a 10-day silent Vipassana
meditation.

Oh, wow, and.

I was like that was a moment where I'm like what
kind of man are you going to be?
You're going to go do thisflitty you know thing where
you're probably breaking yourlegs on a motorcycle, or are you
going to do the thing thatterrifies you, which was
actually sitting for 10 days insilence?
And I'm glad I chose the latter.
It led to many years of doingthat and but I remember that

(57:56):
being like that was probablymore of a rite of passage in
life than a lot of the otherthings.

Yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure, I'm sure, and we could
have a whole episode on that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't even want to hold the one
up in two words yeah, yeah,yeah.

I don't even want to open some worms at the late
hour, it's all good.
It's all good.
Tell me about a book thatchanged how you look at changing
society.

I remember specifically Noam Chomsky's
Manufacturing Consent was apivotal book and then I don't
even know if this is available,but they made a documentary off
of it.
And then there was another bookmade off the documentary that
was expanded and it was incollege and it was.

(58:39):
You know.
I look at the media landscapethat we're in right now and
frankly, I think it's designedso that you can't really tell
what's true and what's notanymore.

I understand, can't really tell what's true
and what's not anymore.

Um, and I think back then it was so helpful to
have somebody dedicated to howwe take information in, how it
interacts at a societal,governmental level.
And I look back now and see I'mvery grateful for that because
it's allowed me to observe thetransitions over time and also

(59:11):
just be able to make sense ofthe world in a way that gives me
some grounding and somefoundation.

Love it, love it All right.
So who's the best?
No, not best.
Who's the most trusted leaderthat you've ever had visibility
to?
I'm not saying who have you met, but I'm saying, as you look
out across what we know aboutleaders in society for centuries
, who's the most trusted leader?

(59:42):
You?

know.
That also just comes to mind insomebody that very few people
will know.
It's somebody that I've knownthrough my transformational
education.
They're not a public figure,but I'll give her a shout out
here.
Her name is Angie Mattingly.
She's a profound leader, aleader of leaders and a healer.
I don't know if she knows, but Ihave a nickname for her, the

(01:00:05):
Diamond Cutter, and it's becauseI love it in a rune of chaos

(01:00:25):
she could create a space thatcalled everybody to with
whatever was going on, but thatpeople really discovered who
they were in the process andpeople got to be bigger than
they knew themselves in herpresence, and I was fortunate to
spend a lot of time around herand it was.
She was a true master, Somebodywho took it very seriously, had

(01:00:47):
an incredibly high level ofintegrity and was very serious
and aware of her role inproviding that.
There's few people who I'veseen who have reached that level
of mastery.

Tonya J. Long (01:00:58):
Yeah, I love it.
And people may not recognizethe name, but the way you've
described what differentiatesher style of leadership, her
style of leadership I thinkeveryone would recognize and
value and wish that we all couldbe a little bit more of that.

(01:01:18):
So beautiful, beautifuldescription of her.
You'll have to make sure thatshe hears about this episode so
that she can take some joy inwhat she has modeled for others.

Shaun Mader (01:01:28):
So thank you, I hope she will yeah.

Yeah, yeah Good.
So we've covered the gamut ofyou.
You know, from martial arts,photography, leadership, india,
storytelling, all those thingsand you said at the very
beginning that the common threadfor you across all those was
your deep curiosity and interestabout people.
So I think it shows.
I think it's part of yournarrative.

(01:01:51):
I love that we've had a.
It's part of your narrative.
I love that we've had a chanceto talk about it today.
For other people who want toeventually buy your book, but
for other people who want towatch you on your journey and be
part of it in some way, how canpeople get in touch with you or
see you operate?

LinkedIn is S-H-A-U-N-M-A-D-E-R.

We'll put that in the show notes.

Yeah, purchasingtoflowconsultingcom is
the website.

Okay, good.

I grudgingly do social media, so I am available.
But reach out to me througheither one of those and, yes,
there's anything I can provide.
We can definitely start theconversation there.
I love it.
We'll put all those in theconversation there.

I love it.
We'll put all those in the shownotes.
Awesome.
Today on RESET with Tonya,we've seen Shaun Mader for the
fullness of who he really is,from brown belt jiu-jitsu master
to photographer, to leadership.
You said you used the wordmastery with Angie, but I think
that you have mastered the skilland the art of amplifying

(01:02:55):
others through your connectionto them, so it has been
absolutely wonderful to spendtime with you talking about the
art of Shawn Mader and all thedifferent ways that you build
resilience and purpose, not justfor you, but with others.
So thank you.

Thank you, Tonya.
It's been such a pleasure.
I appreciate it.

It has been wonderful.
So, everyone here signing offfrom KPCR 92.9 FM in Los Gatos,
as well as KMRT LP 101.9 inSanta Cruz and KVBE LP 91.1 out
of Portland, we are so happy tohave spent some time today with
you, with Shaun Mader.
We do this, Shaun, we do thislittle heart thing.

(01:03:35):
So this tells everybody that'swhat we're sending out Good
heart, good heart.
I bet you don't do that a lot.
Get your flexibility going.
So, everyone, have a wonderfulrest of your day and we'll see
you soon.
Take care.

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Episode Transcript

Host

Tonya J. Long

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