October 15, 2025 • 32 mins
In this continued collaboration with Milford TV, we explore how burnout rarely makes a scene—it slips in as irritability, isolation, and the quiet urge to shut out the world. This episode is the conclusion of episode 225 and we open the door on how those whispers grow louder inside the fire service and EMS, why “just call this number” isn’t care, and what it really takes to protect crews before a bad day becomes a disaster. Our guest, Renea Mansfield, shares honest, lived experience—from losing interest in the kitchen table banter to wrestling with passive suicidal thoughts in the height of COVID—and we walk through the small, specific signals leaders and peers need to catch early.
From there, we shift into solutions that actually fit the job. We break down the Frontline Resilience Protocol, a three-pillar framework designed for police and fire: tactical performance tailored to real-world demands, culturally competent mental health support with warm handoffs and follow-up, and leadership development that turns communication into a daily practice. Think job-specific strength and mobility, nervous system regulation you can use in the rig or the hallway, and nutrition choices that work at 2 a.m. Equally important, we get into the human factors—dark humor, stigma, and how trust is built or broken when a captain shrugs off a plea for help.
The throughline is simple: follow-up saves lives. When someone finally says “I’m not okay,” the next step must be personal, fast, and predictable. Leaders need scripts and skills, peers need permission to check back in, and departments benefit from trained outsiders who know the culture and aren’t tangled in station politics. If you’re a chief, union rep, or frontline responder, you’ll walk away with practical steps to spot burnout early, respond with care, and build a system that doesn’t quit when the shift ends.
Her website is waywardwellnesscoaching.org
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/waywardwellnesscoaching/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/people/Wayward-Wellness-Coaching/61566792351111/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/wayward_wellness_coaching/
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome to Resilience Development and
Action, where strength meansstrategy and courage to help you
move forward.
Each week, your host is DaveBasel, a therapist with over two
decades of experience in thefirst responder community,
brings you powerfulconversations about resilience,
growth, and healing throughtrauma and grief.
Through authentic interviews,expert discussions, and
(00:21):
real-world experiences, we divedeep into the heart of human
resilience.
We explore crucial topics liketrauma recovery, grief
processing, stress management,and emotional well-being.
This is Resilience Developmentin Action with Steve Bisson.
SPEAKER_03 (00:41):
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Hi, and welcome to episode 226.
If you haven't listened toepisode 225, is with the famous
(01:25):
Renee Mansfield, who's stillsitting next to me, and we're
going to continue ourconversation because we were we
left off a little bit on thementorship and the leadership
and impressible e-board.
But I think that we have adifferent conversation to really
have about how that happens.
And because of the lack ofexperience, I think that we
don't see the signs of burnoutbecause we don't see these
little things.
(01:45):
And I know that part I know it'sa little bit of a shift from our
last conversation.
We talked a lot aboutleadership.
Can you tell me more about likethe signs of burnout that people
may not see particularly in thefire service?
And now, again, for those of youwho don't know, a lot more
medical calls, which you knowcan affect you in different
ways, not just trauma, but inother ways.
SPEAKER_01 (02:04):
Right.
I think that the signs ofburnout are very um, they're not
like a neon sign, right?
They don't scream, I'm burntout, I'm really overwhelmed.
SPEAKER_03 (02:16):
It would make my job a lot easier if that was the
case.
SPEAKER_01 (02:19):
I think it would make all of our jobs easier,
right?
No, they're very subtle.
And um, I the one thing inespecially with my one-to-ones
that I like to talk about isthat it screams before or our
bodies whisper before theyscream, right?
And um trying to tune in beforeit starts to scream and become
(02:41):
overwhelming.
And um, so some of particularlyfor me, I can talk about my own
experience first, is hindsight's2020.
I realized that the biggestsigns for me is that at the
firehouse I was much more socialprior to my burnout.
(03:02):
I loved hanging out with theguys, I really enjoyed training.
Um, I really didn't even mindthe calls.
In fact, it makes the day go byreally fast, um, even when
you're busy.
And uh when I started to feelthat burnout, I started to get
more irritable.
I started to get more pissed offabout those calls, especially
the nana calls, the annoyingelderly care calls, the ones
(03:26):
that the nursing homes justdidn't want to take care of
them.
So you just had to go do the,you know, routine blood work
calls because they didn't haveBrewster to come and bring them
to their appointments.
So, like those just started toget really frustrating.
SPEAKER_03 (03:42):
What do we call them now?
We can't call them frequentflyers anymore.
I heard that's not PC anymore.
Oh, I don't is there a new Oh Isomeone told me I can't remember
because I don't care about PC asyou know.
Uh but they told me we can'tcall them frequent flyers, but
I'm gonna call it frequentflyers.
Anyone who's offended or canwrite again, uh, that's invited.
But please go ahead.
I sorry to interrupt, but that'sto me what I call the frequent
(04:02):
flyers.
We had those on the crisis.
SPEAKER_01 (04:04):
I'm interested to see if anyone has the new PC
call.
SPEAKER_03 (04:08):
I I'll I'll talk to a therapist, I'm sure they know
all the right roars.
Um anyway, please go on.
I'm sorry to interrupt.
SPEAKER_01 (04:14):
But yeah, and so then I started to realize mostly
too I was isolating myself.
So um we had our own dorm rooms,so I felt myself withdrawing
from the group.
So when we were at the station,I was just finding myself going
back to my bed.
So I just was hanging out in mybedroom more often.
(04:35):
I don't like being on my phone alot.
I found out I was just more onmy phone more often and um
playing dumb games, which Idon't ever do.
So I was mindlessly doing thingsthat I was making sure that my
mind just wasn't engaged inwhatever was going on.
Um so it was just those smalllittle acts that were
(05:00):
disengaging, removing myselffrom things, and um and it
really was just removing myself,being disinterested in things
that I didn't want to beinterested in anymore.
And um and then the alcohol,like I was drinking more often.
(05:21):
I was sneaking it a little bitmore.
I was never a home drinker, sothat was one thing that when I
noticed that I wanted to drinkmore at home, I started to get
more concerned because I'm like,this is weird for me.
Um, and then also just like thewhole irritability thing.
(05:41):
I was just pissed off all thefucking time.
Like I'm not-cause when we met,I thought you were always like
that.
And then like it just slowlystarted creeping into like I was
just screaming in my car.
Like I just couldn't handle itanymore.
And then it got to the pointwhere like I was passively
(06:04):
suicidal to the point where Iwanted to just get into a car
accident and die.
I wanted the car accident to beso bad that I would just, you
know, it got actually to thepoint where I hoped that I was
forced to do because we were atthe time, it was during COVID,
(06:26):
like the height of COVID.
And um we were uh expected to dothese re absolutely ridiculous
protocols.
Like it was obscene.
Like of we're sleeping in likethe same rooms together, in the
same trucks together, yet we'reexpected to like do these
ridiculous like socialdistancings.
(06:49):
Like, of course, we're alwaysgonna be together.
Like, it's like telling yourselfto social distance from your
mother when you're living withthem, you know, like it was just
obscene the things that we wereexpected to do, which just added
to the stress that we werealready under, and um and then
we were forced on top of that,and then we were forced to like
if we had a cough, we had tolike stay in a hotel, but it's
(07:13):
like I live alone, and it'slike, what am I doing?
Like, what is going on?
These are obscene protocols, andyou know, so everything stressed
on top of that, and then forcedon top of that over hours, and
um, it got to the point where Iwas like, I just want to be
forced to work so many hourswhere I'm so tired, I get into a
(07:34):
car accident, and then they haveto look at what they're forcing
us to do and change it.
Like, that's the point of myburnout is like I want it to
become like a reason why theyhave to check into these things.
And um, and that's actually thepoint I think where I met you
because I actually reached outto I think it was called next
(07:58):
rung.
Um it was like the texting thingbecause it got to the point
where I was like, I don't knowwhat to do, like I want to die,
and I don't know who to text, Idon't know what to say, and um
really the thing that kept mefrom not doing anything drastic
was like knowing that my dogwould be super sad.
Like you do love that dog,that's true.
(08:20):
I mean, obviously, there's morepeople that I know love me.
That sounds ridiculous.
But when in the moment yourbrain is just irrational.
SPEAKER_03 (08:30):
But I'm gonna stop you for a second.
I think that's important forpeople to hear is that yeah,
your dog might keep you aliveand you know that there's other
people, but when you're gettingto that point of burnout, you
just feel like a body.
You don't feel like a person, soyou're not thinking about other
people that may love you.
SPEAKER_01 (08:46):
You're irrational.
SPEAKER_03 (08:46):
And I think that that's why, like, while you said
there's other people, let's notforget the fact that if anyone's
having these symptoms, we got torecognize that it occurs.
So I'm sorry to interrupt again,but I think it's important
because yeah, sometimes, yeah,okay, your dog kept you alive,
that's great.
And yeah, there's other people,but in your mind, the dog's more
important than people, andthat's also a sign of burnout
because when you know, I love Ilook, I met your dog, it's a
(09:10):
great dog.
You know, I love my cats, thegreat cats.
But if your life is based onthat, it really shows where your
burnout is at.
And I think that that's why it'sworth mentioning that too.
And I didn't want to like flyover it without mentioning that
because that is another sign ofburnout for me.
And like, oh, my goldfish wouldnever get fed.
Like, if that's your firstthought, I mean you gotta have
(09:30):
other people.
There's other people who loveyou, you know.
So I think that's important tomention that because passive
suicidality, when you startthinking that way, gets quickly
to active suicidality.
And we've lost too many peoplein the service um in the last
couple of like probably sincethe pandemic, particularly, and
um I don't want that to happen,so I want to make sure I mention
(09:51):
that.
SPEAKER_01 (09:51):
Right, because once you're to that point of
irrationality, like is that evena word?
SPEAKER_03 (09:56):
Once you're we just made it up, it's fine.
SPEAKER_01 (09:58):
Once you're that irrational, really anything is
possible, right?
And which leads to the fact thatother people need to be seeing
those signs, which is bananas tome that no one in the fire
service, the fire station, thedepartment I was working on,
they not only didn't see thosesigns, they exacerbated it
(10:23):
because had they even sawremotely that I was withdrawing
as much as I was, things couldhave been so much different.
And in fact, I not only reachedout to someone, they turned me
to someone else that they knew Ididn't have a good relationship
with, who then did not help me,and then it pushed me into a
(10:45):
further, like worsened state.
So, like everything just made itworse in that department.
And I say this not to say thatI'm glad I went through it, but
I am kind of glad I went throughit because I know that I'm
strong enough to have gottenthrough it so that I can come
through the other side and helppeople.
But at the same time, leadersneed to be able to recognize
(11:09):
these signs and know that, firstof all, it took immense courage
for me to go out to this captainand be like, I'm having passive
suicidal thoughts and I needsome help.
I want to reach out to um atthis, I think it's is it um
on-site?
SPEAKER_03 (11:25):
On site, yep.
SPEAKER_01 (11:26):
I was like, I know that you have experience with
on-site, how can I reach out tothem?
And for that person to be like,Yeah, why don't you contact this
person um who he knows I didn'thave a good relationship with,
and then never follow up with mewhen I just said I'm passively
suicidal, like that blows mymind that like that person just
(11:49):
brushed me off.
SPEAKER_03 (11:50):
And yet sometimes it doesn't blow my mind because
it's exactly how it fuckinggoes.
So I try not to swear.
SPEAKER_01 (11:56):
But right, exactly, and it's just crazy.
And then after that, rumorsstarted, I was called the bitch,
like it was just like everythingjust went downhill from there.
And for someone to have knownthat's at a higher rank, and in
that department, the next rankis deputy-in-chief.
So, Captain, one of four ofthem, knew that I was passively
(12:20):
suicidal, and then knew that Iwanted to remove myself from the
union because the next unionpresident I didn't agree with.
Like he knew that there was alot of things going on and knew
all these rumors, like it wasit's just bonkers to me that
someone who himself has actuallydealt with certain things, like
it um we just need to do better,like in the fire service, in the
(12:46):
first responder realm, in thepolice.
And so for leaders to recognizethese signs and to do something
about it, we can't just continueto say, here's our EAP, go look
at it.
SPEAKER_03 (13:00):
I mean, there's so many things I want to say.
Other signs of burnout, you getto pass a suicide alley, you
called you.
I think I wrote it down becauseI thought it was funny you said
dumb games.
Is there really smart games onyour phone?
Anyway, just my two cents there.
I I see a lot of people go intothe gambling, and again, no
offense to table tennis inKorea, but if you're like
gambling on that, there's yougot a serious problem, and
(13:23):
that's usually a sign ofburnout, in my opinion.
Um, you talk about havingproblems sleeping or being
overactive in order to feelbetter.
There's a lot of those things,and then think about your dog
versus other loved ones.
I mean, again, nothing againstyour dog, just saying there's a
lot of stuff.
I want to really kind of like Idon't know what to wrap up a
little bit about the burnout sothat people can look for those
(13:44):
signs and then bring the otherpoint that you talked about.
You may have an EAP, you mayhave a SISM, uh, crisis
intervention stress management,or there's what's crisis
intervention stress response.
I can't remember.
Yeah, but there's there's like abunch of names for them.
And then there's peer support.
And what I think that we'rereally gonna get to a little bit
(14:04):
more is I think that me and youhave the same goal, and we need
to talk about this off-air.
But I think that we need to haveoutsiders, and what I mean by
outsiders are people who aretrained, culturally competent,
understand the stress, and havethese wellness visits, have
these trainings to support theofficers because we're not
putting down schisms, we're notputting down peer support.
(14:25):
But when your captain knows thatyou have a bad relationship with
Johnny Doe, and they said, Gosee Johnny Doe, then why
wouldn't we have a wellnessvisit?
Why wouldn't we have outsiderswho are culturally competent
being able to reach out toRenee, reach out to whoever in
order to do that?
But um, I really want to talkmore about these services
because I think that's wherewe're gonna get to by the end of
(14:47):
this uh um episode, because Ithink that it's important for
you to look at it that way.
So um tell me more about likehere's here's a phone number.
This is the other one, too, thatI love.
Here's a phone number.
Wow, that's supportive.
Thank you so much.
I can't I feel the love.
And when you're like passivelysuicidal, that's not exactly
(15:08):
like the most love you're gonnaget if someone's handing you a
card and you go, here's a card,good luck.
SPEAKER_01 (15:12):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (15:13):
So anyway, want to talk a little more about that
because I think it's the systemthat we're looking for to talk
about, right?
SPEAKER_01 (15:19):
Right, because the biggest thing is there's no
follow-up in that, right?
SPEAKER_03 (15:23):
Nope.
SPEAKER_01 (15:23):
And as we know, the hardest thing for us to do, the
hardest thing for really anyoneto do, regardless of what field
you're in, is to ask for help.
It's very rare that anyone wantsto ask for help, especially when
it comes to anything mentalhealth related.
So when someone does do that,especially in this field, we
need to start taking itseriously and not just being
(15:45):
like, oh, contact this person.
Because that's one step they'renot gonna do.
They already did that step.
So to take it a step further,that leader could be like, let
me get you in contact with thatperson, right?
SPEAKER_03 (15:58):
Or shame.
Let's not talk, let's not forgetabout shame.
Here's a phone number, like Iopened up to you, can you help
me?
That's not helping me, that'sjust kicking the can down the
street.
SPEAKER_01 (16:07):
Right.
And the biggest thing too is wecan't have leaders that are
throwing these, you know, flyersout, EAPs out, programs out, if
they're not even comfortablehaving these hard conversations
themselves.
So if they're not mimicking ormodeling these behaviors or
vulnerabilities or thesediscussions, then how can we
(16:27):
expect the crews to be able todo that as well?
So, and I think the biggestthing too, um, at least when I
was developing my program, andthen now that I'm actually
implementing it into thesedepartments and talking about it
with chiefs, is that they reallyappreciate that there's
follow-up.
Because one thing we don't haveis follow-up.
Right.
So, even like there's a lot ofprograms that are out there that
(16:49):
they come in, they'll do it aneight-hour session or a one
full-day session, right?
They'll come in, they'llintroduce their wellness
program.
This is what we have.
Take this app, you know.
But there was just a study thatshows that you can have the best
app in the world, but after twoweeks, 90% of these people that
are using the app, they're notgoing to use the app anymore.
Because there's no follow-up.
(17:10):
There's nothing that tells themthat this is what they can
continue to use, or someonethat, you know, helps them along
the way.
So the best thing that you needto do is if you do go and you
know, say, go to your captain,say that this is what's going
on, and they can come up tothem, be like, hey, a couple
months later, or even a monthlater, a week later, be like,
hey, we had this discussion.
(17:31):
Um, how are you feeling?
Did you contact that person orwhat's going on with it?
You know, do you have some sortof plan?
Or, you know, we need to havethis follow-up because we know
how easy it is to go by thewayside.
And that's what happens is thatyou don't have follow-up, and
then you know, a month laterthat person commits suicide.
So that's the biggest issue.
SPEAKER_03 (17:51):
Well, I think that's what you just said.
I I think I want to add to that.
But it takes immense courageanywhere for someone to say, I'm
passively suicidal, I'm notfeeling good, whatever mental
health wise.
I think that it's even more of auh statement in the first
responder, or as one of my otherformer guests call it, emergency
(18:12):
responders have to do becausethat's exposing.
And that's very hard to exposeyourself as in you know, I'm
having these thoughts, or I'mdepressed, or I'm burnt out, or
whatever.
And then, like we talk aboutwhen you've once you ask to help
and you're being told, here's acard, go home, or here's an app,
enjoy it.
There's no follow-through.
And I think that there's a lesspersonable, and what you just
(18:34):
said, there's nothing morepersonal.
Like when people tell me they'resuicidal, I don't come out, I'm
not angry.
I'm actually like grateful.
I mean, oh my god, you trust me.
I thank you.
Maybe it's 15 years of crisiswork that does that.
I don't know.
But to me, that's so personalwhen people share with that, and
I don't make them feel bad and Iwant to help them, and then I'll
text them during the week.
(18:55):
And yes, licensing board join mein uh writing me that I can't
text my clients, I don't care.
But I text them, hey, how's thisweek been?
How are like, and this happens alot with my first responders in
particular, because I knowthey're not telling anyone else
unless they're going to on-siteor they're going or going to uh
the IFF Center of Excellence orwhat have you.
(19:15):
So I think that it's importantto also have that
follow-through.
But I want to mention, like, youknow it's hard to ask for help.
If you're a leader and you'vebeen in this field for any
amount of time, you should knowthat that was difficult for
them.
And your follow-through ishere's a card, here's an app,
here's an EAP.
Come on.
Right.
Seriously, you should knowbetter.
(19:36):
And that's why you come in andyou come up with great ideas.
I know we've talked about it,but we haven't talked too much
about it here.
I know you're working on acouple of things.
I'd like to hear more becauseyou're going out to all these
trainings all over the country,and I'm getting texts from you.
I'm like, oh, do you know abouttapping?
Do you know about EMDR 2.0?
Do you know about you gotta tellme about all these things, which
I absolutely adore and love, butI would like you to talk more
(19:58):
about what you want toimplement, what you want to do.
SPEAKER_01 (20:01):
Right.
So the overall program is calledthe Frontline Resilience
Protocol, and um, it's reallylike a three-pillar program for
police and fire departments,where it's more of like um, I
kind of describe it more likethe bar rescue, right?
We go in and kind of figure outwhat's going on and uh tailor it
(20:24):
to each department.
But really at the end of theday, the three core pillars are
you know, we have the tacticalperformance, which really
narrows down the strength and umstrength and mobility and you
know the nervous systemregulation.
So we kind of figured out so Iwork with a strength and
conditioning coach, I'm also apersonal trainer as well, and
(20:44):
then we figured out the injuryprevention because we know that
physical and mental go hand inhand.
So a lot of the times, you know,firefighters and police and EMS,
we do kind of let ourselves go alittle bit during the stressful
times.
SPEAKER_02 (20:58):
And uh it's very important to have the PAT, but
then after that you let it allgo because you guys work so hard
on the PAT.
I get it.
SPEAKER_01 (21:04):
Oh, there's so many times where you know, I you can
see photos of guys that I workedwith, and I'm like, all right,
you know, once you're in, you'rein, you know.
SPEAKER_02 (21:14):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (21:15):
But at the same time, you know, you still have
to maintain your physicalabilities, and it's not even
just because your job depends onit, your life literally depends
on it, you know, like becauseyou have to be able to maintain
your heart stability and youhave to be able to just be
strong and you know be able tofunction.
Um, and but the problem is, youknow, the functional behaviors
(21:35):
that we have to be able to doand maneuver is a lot different
than the crossfit that you haveto be able to do at the gym.
You know, we have to be able tocarry 75 pounds on our back
while we're, you know,cardiovascular strength and
pulling hoses and compromisingpositions and you, you know,
police while they're jumpingover fences, and we just are
doing different positions andmaneuvers that will put us into
(21:58):
different um injury prone areas.
SPEAKER_03 (22:01):
So never mind the driving.
I mentioned that because as muchas people are driving, have you
ever driven a fire truck?
If you haven't, I don't want tohear from you.
I haven't, by the way, no no noclaims on my part.
But the point is, is like that'salso can be physically demanding
if you're hitting like you know,I've got guys in urban areas
that are very tight and verydifficult to get through.
(22:21):
And even driving an ambulance,which we're in Milford, driving
the ambulance down Main Streethere.
I can imagine can be quite anaccomplishment at uh at peak
hours, is the way I would putit.
But I I want to mention thattoo, because people are like, oh
well, I wasn't physicallytiring, but it's mentally
draining and can causephysically to be a little more
(22:44):
vulnerable.
SPEAKER_01 (22:44):
But yeah, absolutely.
But even just getting in and outof the the vehicles, you know,
like there's been guys that busta knee just getting in and out
of the engine, you know.
SPEAKER_03 (22:53):
I know a guy who did his ankle that way.
SPEAKER_01 (22:55):
Yeah, absolutely.
So, you know, we focus a littlea lot on that, it's a key
component.
But um, and then the nervoussystem regulation, so that's one
thing that I find is reallyimportant.
So learning breathingtechniques, and I know that we
hate meditation and stuff ofthat nature, but at the same
time, it's very important.
So learning how to re-regulateour nervous system, which you
(23:17):
can actually control with yourbreathing.
Uh, I know that even likesnipers or we learned in the
academy the box breathing, soyou can reset your blood
pressure, reset your uh heartrate by just like learning how
to breathe in for four, hold forfour, breathe out for four, hold
for four.
So um different ways you can dothat even before you have a
(23:38):
conversation, reshifting yourposture.
So that's something that you cando before having a conversation
with, say, a reactivenarcissistic chief.
You know, like that's somethingthat you can do before you have
experience with that.
That's something that you cando, but that can actually change
the trajectory of how yourespond or react to before you
have that conversation.
(23:59):
Um, all of these things, andthen obviously figuring out what
you're gonna eat, you know, froma gas station that you can have
that's different than havinglike bags of chips and shit
that's gonna fuel you ratherthan you know make your body
feel like shit.
So that's one aspect.
Um, and then obviously there'sum the mental health aspect,
(24:22):
which we talked about, like thepeer support.
If there's not anything inplace, we do work with the
individuals to create somethingin place.
So that's something that youknow we are gonna be talking
about in the future.
But there's something that'sincredibly beneficial to working
with therapists that work withfirst responders.
SPEAKER_03 (24:42):
Culturally competent.
I say this almost every episode,but it's so important.
Therapists are well intended.
I'm not trying to put them down.
But if you don't know nothingabout the first responder world,
don't pretend you do.
SPEAKER_02 (24:53):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (24:53):
And that's not a knock on anyone, it's just the
truth because then you lose thetrust and the first responder
doesn't want to go back, andthen they like fuck this shit.
And that's you know, the thewhole fuckets is a very big part
of the culture, also.
SPEAKER_01 (25:08):
Right.
And just not to scare them away.
Like I've heard stories abouthow you know therapists just get
a little scared or just a littlejudgmental of our, you know, bl
dark humor when in reality it'sjust we're it's really not a
cover-up.
We just do have that type ofhumor, you know, like it's not
(25:28):
being weird.
SPEAKER_03 (25:29):
You know, it's a cover-up if you do it five or
six times during an hoursession.
If it's only a couple of times,like it's just part of the
humor, and that's a survivalskill.
And if you've never been throughthat, and I'm not talking about
only first responders, workingon a crisis team, even though
it's like what I call secondresponders by the ER or even in
the community.
Um, I have a lot of dark humor,believe me.
(25:50):
And for those of you who don'tknow, ask Renee, I've shared a
few of my jokes.
Uh, but it's so important tosurvive some of the hard stuff
that we see, but people don'tunderstand that.
And if you don't have thatcultural competency, whether
it's a therapist, a program likeyou're talking about with the
physical health, the mentalhealth, I think that it's key.
To me, it's like, okay, youdon't have that training, that's
fine, it's okay, there's nothingwrong with that.
(26:12):
But be truthful because whenpeople ask me, like, I don't
know all of everything aboutfire, I don't know what
happened.
I had a client this morningwho's a firefighter who
mentioned something I've neverheard of.
And I'm like, what do you meanby that?
Well, I have enough competency,but I don't work in that field.
He felt very comfortableexplaining to me.
If I say, what's going on a run?
Then maybe perhaps this isn'tfor you.
(26:33):
So just for a second.
Go ahead.
I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_01 (26:36):
Yeah, no, absolutely.
And so then um last andforemost, which I feel like is
the most important, is theleadership development.
So that is where it's thefollow-up with the leadership.
So it's quarterly follow-upswhere we meet with the
leadership team, um, whomeverthe chief would obviously deem
(26:58):
would be the leaders, will bethe lieutenants, the captains,
battalion chiefs, whomever theywould be.
But we check in with themquarterly to make sure that
whatever we have implemented isactually working and that
they're actually checking inwith their own crews.
Because, like I said in thebeginning, that is the most
important thing is thefollow-up.
So are they utilizing the mentalhealth resources?
(27:18):
Are they utilizing, you know,the performance and the you
know, nervous system regulation,or are they notifying themselves
when they have burnout symptoms?
Or are the leaders themselvesnoticing any type of burnout
with their crews?
Or the biggest thing is to teachthem communication.
So one thing that I actually youchuckle and we're you chuckle
(27:42):
because you know why.
Right.
We both know that that is thebiggest driving force, right?
Just teaching them how tocommunicate, having a
relationship.
So I actually went through a lotof Jocko Willink's uh EO Academy
different teachings that hedoes, and he is a driving force
for relationships.
(28:02):
So really just going around andhaving a real you don't have to
be best friends with everyonethat you work with, but you do
have to have a relationship withthose that you have a crew with.
So just seeing how everyone'sdoing, you know, knowing if they
have kids, knowing how theirkids are, knowing how they're
doing at home.
You know, some things might behappening, it might not even be
(28:24):
work-related, their burnoutmight be related to the fact
they can't afford the truck thatthey just bought because they're
making more money, they thinkthey can spend more money, but
in reality they can't, you know,like they wouldn't.
SPEAKER_03 (28:34):
Let's keep the cops out of this, but please go
ahead.
SPEAKER_01 (28:37):
But yeah, it's just like asking them how they're
doing.
That could be the most powerfulthing.
And at the end of the day, weneed to have tough
conversations.
And if that is what you thinkirreparable, you need to say
that.
Like we need to be okay.
And I know that we've had thisdiscussion.
You need to be okay having ifyou have a union and a chief
(29:00):
that cannot communicate witheach other, they need to sit
down together and be like, Howdo we repair this?
unknown (29:06):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (29:07):
It's very damaged, and we need to be able to work
together.
You need to be able to say thosewords.
That's communication, and theonly way you can repair that is
if you have a third party comein and say, This is how you
speak to each other.
We have to act like like, do wehave to act like children?
You know, like we just have tobe able to communicate, and if
(29:28):
you can't put your ego aside,then you're never going to fix
anything.
And if you want to have culturechange, you have to be able to
do that.
But if you aren't willing to dothat, you have to step aside and
let someone do that.
SPEAKER_03 (29:41):
Well, I would love for people to reach out to you,
obviously, me and you're gonnahave a private conversation
outside of here, but how dopeople reach you for these
things?
Because I think it's soimportant, you're absolutely
right.
There I have another half hourof questions, but we need to
wrap up here.
So, how do people reach Reneeand go see what you're doing in
general?
SPEAKER_01 (30:00):
Right.
So you can look me up.
My business is Wayward WellnessCoaching.
Okay.
Um I'm on LinkedIn, Facebook,Instagram.
I also have a website,waywardwellnesscoaching.org.
SPEAKER_03 (30:15):
Okay.
Um I'll put that in the shownotes so that'll be easy for
people to click on.
SPEAKER_01 (30:20):
Right.
And then just at Gmail.
So all of that at Gmail if youwant to get my email.
Um but all of that is easilyaccessible, LinkedIn, all the
social media's website.
SPEAKER_03 (30:31):
Well, more importantly, you forgot to
mention one thing.
We had a whole hour, you didn'tmention a band.
SPEAKER_00 (30:36):
Yes.
SPEAKER_03 (30:37):
And if you want, Renee is amazing at her with
her, she plays with herboyfriend.
And it's an amazing show thatI've missed many times, and I
know I don't want to hear it.
But can you how do people seeyou play?
Where do they go and check thisout?
I mean, it'll be October, soit'll be a lot of indoor venues
by then.
SPEAKER_01 (30:56):
Right.
Well, if you want to see livemusic, we have a little band
called the Renee and Band,R-E-N-E, A-N-N band.
And um, yeah, we do anythingfrom 80s, 90s, and today with a
little bit of a fiddle twist.
SPEAKER_03 (31:11):
So and quite a fiddler.
SPEAKER_01 (31:14):
Electric fiddle nonetheless.
SPEAKER_03 (31:15):
So and and if you want to be sound like an
insider, ask her about the van.
Anyway, that's what I would say.
I'm leaving at that.
Uh thank you.
I want to give you your gift.
Everyone who comes on willdefinitely get a gift.
This is yours.
There's a pen in there also withresilience development in
action.
SPEAKER_01 (31:32):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_03 (31:33):
Renee, from the bottom of my heart, I know that
you may sound like I you knowme, I've never lied.
Uh, this has been truly firstexperiences in this studio, but
from the bottom of my heart,really enjoyed it.
Uh, we need to talk outside ofhere, but more importantly,
hopefully you come back too.
SPEAKER_01 (31:48):
Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (31:49):
Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_03 (31:50):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (31:52):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(32:16):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
Welcome to Resilience Development and
Action, where strength meansstrategy and courage to help you
move forward.
Each week, your host is DaveBasel, a therapist with over two
decades of experience in thefirst responder community,
brings you powerfulconversations about resilience,
growth, and healing throughtrauma and grief.
Through authentic interviews,expert discussions, and
(00:21):
real-world experiences, we divedeep into the heart of human
resilience.
We explore crucial topics liketrauma recovery, grief
processing, stress management,and emotional well-being.
This is Resilience Developmentin Action with Steve Bisson.
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Hi, and welcome to episode 226.
If you haven't listened toepisode 225, is with the famous
(01:25):
Renee Mansfield, who's stillsitting next to me, and we're
going to continue ourconversation because we were we
left off a little bit on thementorship and the leadership
and impressible e-board.
But I think that we have adifferent conversation to really
have about how that happens.
And because of the lack ofexperience, I think that we
don't see the signs of burnoutbecause we don't see these
little things.
(01:45):
And I know that part I know it'sa little bit of a shift from our
last conversation.
We talked a lot aboutleadership.
Can you tell me more about likethe signs of burnout that people
may not see particularly in thefire service?
And now, again, for those of youwho don't know, a lot more
medical calls, which you knowcan affect you in different
ways, not just trauma, but inother ways.
SPEAKER_01 (02:04):
Right.
I think that the signs ofburnout are very um, they're not
like a neon sign, right?
They don't scream, I'm burntout, I'm really overwhelmed.
SPEAKER_03 (02:16):
It would make my job a lot easier if that was the
case.
SPEAKER_01 (02:19):
I think it would make all of our jobs easier,
right?
No, they're very subtle.
And um, I the one thing inespecially with my one-to-ones
that I like to talk about isthat it screams before or our
bodies whisper before theyscream, right?
And um trying to tune in beforeit starts to scream and become
(02:41):
overwhelming.
And um, so some of particularlyfor me, I can talk about my own
experience first, is hindsight's2020.
I realized that the biggestsigns for me is that at the
firehouse I was much more socialprior to my burnout.
(03:02):
I loved hanging out with theguys, I really enjoyed training.
Um, I really didn't even mindthe calls.
In fact, it makes the day go byreally fast, um, even when
you're busy.
And uh when I started to feelthat burnout, I started to get
more irritable.
I started to get more pissed offabout those calls, especially
the nana calls, the annoyingelderly care calls, the ones
(03:26):
that the nursing homes justdidn't want to take care of
them.
So you just had to go do the,you know, routine blood work
calls because they didn't haveBrewster to come and bring them
to their appointments.
So, like those just started toget really frustrating.
SPEAKER_03 (03:42):
What do we call them now?
We can't call them frequentflyers anymore.
I heard that's not PC anymore.
Oh, I don't is there a new Oh Isomeone told me I can't remember
because I don't care about PC asyou know.
Uh but they told me we can'tcall them frequent flyers, but
I'm gonna call it frequentflyers.
Anyone who's offended or canwrite again, uh, that's invited.
But please go ahead.
I sorry to interrupt, but that'sto me what I call the frequent
(04:02):
flyers.
We had those on the crisis.
SPEAKER_01 (04:04):
I'm interested to see if anyone has the new PC
call.
SPEAKER_03 (04:08):
I I'll I'll talk to a therapist, I'm sure they know
all the right roars.
Um anyway, please go on.
I'm sorry to interrupt.
SPEAKER_01 (04:14):
But yeah, and so then I started to realize mostly
too I was isolating myself.
So um we had our own dorm rooms,so I felt myself withdrawing
from the group.
So when we were at the station,I was just finding myself going
back to my bed.
So I just was hanging out in mybedroom more often.
(04:35):
I don't like being on my phone alot.
I found out I was just more onmy phone more often and um
playing dumb games, which Idon't ever do.
So I was mindlessly doing thingsthat I was making sure that my
mind just wasn't engaged inwhatever was going on.
Um so it was just those smalllittle acts that were
(05:00):
disengaging, removing myselffrom things, and um and it
really was just removing myself,being disinterested in things
that I didn't want to beinterested in anymore.
And um and then the alcohol,like I was drinking more often.
(05:21):
I was sneaking it a little bitmore.
I was never a home drinker, sothat was one thing that when I
noticed that I wanted to drinkmore at home, I started to get
more concerned because I'm like,this is weird for me.
Um, and then also just like thewhole irritability thing.
(05:41):
I was just pissed off all thefucking time.
Like I'm not-cause when we met,I thought you were always like
that.
And then like it just slowlystarted creeping into like I was
just screaming in my car.
Like I just couldn't handle itanymore.
And then it got to the pointwhere like I was passively
(06:04):
suicidal to the point where Iwanted to just get into a car
accident and die.
I wanted the car accident to beso bad that I would just, you
know, it got actually to thepoint where I hoped that I was
forced to do because we were atthe time, it was during COVID,
(06:26):
like the height of COVID.
And um we were uh expected to dothese re absolutely ridiculous
protocols.
Like it was obscene.
Like of we're sleeping in likethe same rooms together, in the
same trucks together, yet we'reexpected to like do these
ridiculous like socialdistancings.
(06:49):
Like, of course, we're alwaysgonna be together.
Like, it's like telling yourselfto social distance from your
mother when you're living withthem, you know, like it was just
obscene the things that we wereexpected to do, which just added
to the stress that we werealready under, and um and then
we were forced on top of that,and then we were forced to like
if we had a cough, we had tolike stay in a hotel, but it's
(07:13):
like I live alone, and it'slike, what am I doing?
Like, what is going on?
These are obscene protocols, andyou know, so everything stressed
on top of that, and then forcedon top of that over hours, and
um, it got to the point where Iwas like, I just want to be
forced to work so many hourswhere I'm so tired, I get into a
(07:34):
car accident, and then they haveto look at what they're forcing
us to do and change it.
Like, that's the point of myburnout is like I want it to
become like a reason why theyhave to check into these things.
And um, and that's actually thepoint I think where I met you
because I actually reached outto I think it was called next
(07:58):
rung.
Um it was like the texting thingbecause it got to the point
where I was like, I don't knowwhat to do, like I want to die,
and I don't know who to text, Idon't know what to say, and um
really the thing that kept mefrom not doing anything drastic
was like knowing that my dogwould be super sad.
Like you do love that dog,that's true.
(08:20):
I mean, obviously, there's morepeople that I know love me.
That sounds ridiculous.
But when in the moment yourbrain is just irrational.
SPEAKER_03 (08:30):
But I'm gonna stop you for a second.
I think that's important forpeople to hear is that yeah,
your dog might keep you aliveand you know that there's other
people, but when you're gettingto that point of burnout, you
just feel like a body.
You don't feel like a person, soyou're not thinking about other
people that may love you.
SPEAKER_01 (08:46):
You're irrational.
SPEAKER_03 (08:46):
And I think that that's why, like, while you said
there's other people, let's notforget the fact that if anyone's
having these symptoms, we got torecognize that it occurs.
So I'm sorry to interrupt again,but I think it's important
because yeah, sometimes, yeah,okay, your dog kept you alive,
that's great.
And yeah, there's other people,but in your mind, the dog's more
important than people, andthat's also a sign of burnout
because when you know, I love Ilook, I met your dog, it's a
(09:10):
great dog.
You know, I love my cats, thegreat cats.
But if your life is based onthat, it really shows where your
burnout is at.
And I think that that's why it'sworth mentioning that too.
And I didn't want to like flyover it without mentioning that
because that is another sign ofburnout for me.
And like, oh, my goldfish wouldnever get fed.
Like, if that's your firstthought, I mean you gotta have
(09:30):
other people.
There's other people who loveyou, you know.
So I think that's important tomention that because passive
suicidality, when you startthinking that way, gets quickly
to active suicidality.
And we've lost too many peoplein the service um in the last
couple of like probably sincethe pandemic, particularly, and
um I don't want that to happen,so I want to make sure I mention
(09:51):
that.
SPEAKER_01 (09:51):
Right, because once you're to that point of
irrationality, like is that evena word?
SPEAKER_03 (09:56):
Once you're we just made it up, it's fine.
SPEAKER_01 (09:58):
Once you're that irrational, really anything is
possible, right?
And which leads to the fact thatother people need to be seeing
those signs, which is bananas tome that no one in the fire
service, the fire station, thedepartment I was working on,
they not only didn't see thosesigns, they exacerbated it
(10:23):
because had they even sawremotely that I was withdrawing
as much as I was, things couldhave been so much different.
And in fact, I not only reachedout to someone, they turned me
to someone else that they knew Ididn't have a good relationship
with, who then did not help me,and then it pushed me into a
(10:45):
further, like worsened state.
So, like everything just made itworse in that department.
And I say this not to say thatI'm glad I went through it, but
I am kind of glad I went throughit because I know that I'm
strong enough to have gottenthrough it so that I can come
through the other side and helppeople.
But at the same time, leadersneed to be able to recognize
(11:09):
these signs and know that, firstof all, it took immense courage
for me to go out to this captainand be like, I'm having passive
suicidal thoughts and I needsome help.
I want to reach out to um atthis, I think it's is it um
on-site?
SPEAKER_03 (11:25):
On site, yep.
SPEAKER_01 (11:26):
I was like, I know that you have experience with
on-site, how can I reach out tothem?
And for that person to be like,Yeah, why don't you contact this
person um who he knows I didn'thave a good relationship with,
and then never follow up with mewhen I just said I'm passively
suicidal, like that blows mymind that like that person just
(11:49):
brushed me off.
SPEAKER_03 (11:50):
And yet sometimes it doesn't blow my mind because
it's exactly how it fuckinggoes.
So I try not to swear.
SPEAKER_01 (11:56):
But right, exactly, and it's just crazy.
And then after that, rumorsstarted, I was called the bitch,
like it was just like everythingjust went downhill from there.
And for someone to have knownthat's at a higher rank, and in
that department, the next rankis deputy-in-chief.
So, Captain, one of four ofthem, knew that I was passively
(12:20):
suicidal, and then knew that Iwanted to remove myself from the
union because the next unionpresident I didn't agree with.
Like he knew that there was alot of things going on and knew
all these rumors, like it wasit's just bonkers to me that
someone who himself has actuallydealt with certain things, like
it um we just need to do better,like in the fire service, in the
(12:46):
first responder realm, in thepolice.
And so for leaders to recognizethese signs and to do something
about it, we can't just continueto say, here's our EAP, go look
at it.
SPEAKER_03 (13:00):
I mean, there's so many things I want to say.
Other signs of burnout, you getto pass a suicide alley, you
called you.
I think I wrote it down becauseI thought it was funny you said
dumb games.
Is there really smart games onyour phone?
Anyway, just my two cents there.
I I see a lot of people go intothe gambling, and again, no
offense to table tennis inKorea, but if you're like
gambling on that, there's yougot a serious problem, and
(13:23):
that's usually a sign ofburnout, in my opinion.
Um, you talk about havingproblems sleeping or being
overactive in order to feelbetter.
There's a lot of those things,and then think about your dog
versus other loved ones.
I mean, again, nothing againstyour dog, just saying there's a
lot of stuff.
I want to really kind of like Idon't know what to wrap up a
little bit about the burnout sothat people can look for those
(13:44):
signs and then bring the otherpoint that you talked about.
You may have an EAP, you mayhave a SISM, uh, crisis
intervention stress management,or there's what's crisis
intervention stress response.
I can't remember.
Yeah, but there's there's like abunch of names for them.
And then there's peer support.
And what I think that we'rereally gonna get to a little bit
(14:04):
more is I think that me and youhave the same goal, and we need
to talk about this off-air.
But I think that we need to haveoutsiders, and what I mean by
outsiders are people who aretrained, culturally competent,
understand the stress, and havethese wellness visits, have
these trainings to support theofficers because we're not
putting down schisms, we're notputting down peer support.
(14:25):
But when your captain knows thatyou have a bad relationship with
Johnny Doe, and they said, Gosee Johnny Doe, then why
wouldn't we have a wellnessvisit?
Why wouldn't we have outsiderswho are culturally competent
being able to reach out toRenee, reach out to whoever in
order to do that?
But um, I really want to talkmore about these services
because I think that's wherewe're gonna get to by the end of
(14:47):
this uh um episode, because Ithink that it's important for
you to look at it that way.
So um tell me more about likehere's here's a phone number.
This is the other one, too, thatI love.
Here's a phone number.
Wow, that's supportive.
Thank you so much.
I can't I feel the love.
And when you're like passivelysuicidal, that's not exactly
(15:08):
like the most love you're gonnaget if someone's handing you a
card and you go, here's a card,good luck.
SPEAKER_01 (15:12):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (15:13):
So anyway, want to talk a little more about that
because I think it's the systemthat we're looking for to talk
about, right?
SPEAKER_01 (15:19):
Right, because the biggest thing is there's no
follow-up in that, right?
SPEAKER_03 (15:23):
Nope.
SPEAKER_01 (15:23):
And as we know, the hardest thing for us to do, the
hardest thing for really anyoneto do, regardless of what field
you're in, is to ask for help.
It's very rare that anyone wantsto ask for help, especially when
it comes to anything mentalhealth related.
So when someone does do that,especially in this field, we
need to start taking itseriously and not just being
(15:45):
like, oh, contact this person.
Because that's one step they'renot gonna do.
They already did that step.
So to take it a step further,that leader could be like, let
me get you in contact with thatperson, right?
SPEAKER_03 (15:58):
Or shame.
Let's not talk, let's not forgetabout shame.
Here's a phone number, like Iopened up to you, can you help
me?
That's not helping me, that'sjust kicking the can down the
street.
SPEAKER_01 (16:07):
Right.
And the biggest thing too is wecan't have leaders that are
throwing these, you know, flyersout, EAPs out, programs out, if
they're not even comfortablehaving these hard conversations
themselves.
So if they're not mimicking ormodeling these behaviors or
vulnerabilities or thesediscussions, then how can we
(16:27):
expect the crews to be able todo that as well?
So, and I think the biggestthing too, um, at least when I
was developing my program, andthen now that I'm actually
implementing it into thesedepartments and talking about it
with chiefs, is that they reallyappreciate that there's
follow-up.
Because one thing we don't haveis follow-up.
Right.
So, even like there's a lot ofprograms that are out there that
(16:49):
they come in, they'll do it aneight-hour session or a one
full-day session, right?
They'll come in, they'llintroduce their wellness
program.
This is what we have.
Take this app, you know.
But there was just a study thatshows that you can have the best
app in the world, but after twoweeks, 90% of these people that
are using the app, they're notgoing to use the app anymore.
Because there's no follow-up.
(17:10):
There's nothing that tells themthat this is what they can
continue to use, or someonethat, you know, helps them along
the way.
So the best thing that you needto do is if you do go and you
know, say, go to your captain,say that this is what's going
on, and they can come up tothem, be like, hey, a couple
months later, or even a monthlater, a week later, be like,
hey, we had this discussion.
(17:31):
Um, how are you feeling?
Did you contact that person orwhat's going on with it?
You know, do you have some sortof plan?
Or, you know, we need to havethis follow-up because we know
how easy it is to go by thewayside.
And that's what happens is thatyou don't have follow-up, and
then you know, a month laterthat person commits suicide.
So that's the biggest issue.
SPEAKER_03 (17:51):
Well, I think that's what you just said.
I I think I want to add to that.
But it takes immense courageanywhere for someone to say, I'm
passively suicidal, I'm notfeeling good, whatever mental
health wise.
I think that it's even more of auh statement in the first
responder, or as one of my otherformer guests call it, emergency
(18:12):
responders have to do becausethat's exposing.
And that's very hard to exposeyourself as in you know, I'm
having these thoughts, or I'mdepressed, or I'm burnt out, or
whatever.
And then, like we talk aboutwhen you've once you ask to help
and you're being told, here's acard, go home, or here's an app,
enjoy it.
There's no follow-through.
And I think that there's a lesspersonable, and what you just
(18:34):
said, there's nothing morepersonal.
Like when people tell me they'resuicidal, I don't come out, I'm
not angry.
I'm actually like grateful.
I mean, oh my god, you trust me.
I thank you.
Maybe it's 15 years of crisiswork that does that.
I don't know.
But to me, that's so personalwhen people share with that, and
I don't make them feel bad and Iwant to help them, and then I'll
text them during the week.
(18:55):
And yes, licensing board join mein uh writing me that I can't
text my clients, I don't care.
But I text them, hey, how's thisweek been?
How are like, and this happens alot with my first responders in
particular, because I knowthey're not telling anyone else
unless they're going to on-siteor they're going or going to uh
the IFF Center of Excellence orwhat have you.
(19:15):
So I think that it's importantto also have that
follow-through.
But I want to mention, like, youknow it's hard to ask for help.
If you're a leader and you'vebeen in this field for any
amount of time, you should knowthat that was difficult for
them.
And your follow-through ishere's a card, here's an app,
here's an EAP.
Come on.
Right.
Seriously, you should knowbetter.
(19:36):
And that's why you come in andyou come up with great ideas.
I know we've talked about it,but we haven't talked too much
about it here.
I know you're working on acouple of things.
I'd like to hear more becauseyou're going out to all these
trainings all over the country,and I'm getting texts from you.
I'm like, oh, do you know abouttapping?
Do you know about EMDR 2.0?
Do you know about you gotta tellme about all these things, which
I absolutely adore and love, butI would like you to talk more
(19:58):
about what you want toimplement, what you want to do.
SPEAKER_01 (20:01):
Right.
So the overall program is calledthe Frontline Resilience
Protocol, and um, it's reallylike a three-pillar program for
police and fire departments,where it's more of like um, I
kind of describe it more likethe bar rescue, right?
We go in and kind of figure outwhat's going on and uh tailor it
(20:24):
to each department.
But really at the end of theday, the three core pillars are
you know, we have the tacticalperformance, which really
narrows down the strength and umstrength and mobility and you
know the nervous systemregulation.
So we kind of figured out so Iwork with a strength and
conditioning coach, I'm also apersonal trainer as well, and
(20:44):
then we figured out the injuryprevention because we know that
physical and mental go hand inhand.
So a lot of the times, you know,firefighters and police and EMS,
we do kind of let ourselves go alittle bit during the stressful
times.
SPEAKER_02 (20:58):
And uh it's very important to have the PAT, but
then after that you let it allgo because you guys work so hard
on the PAT.
I get it.
SPEAKER_01 (21:04):
Oh, there's so many times where you know, I you can
see photos of guys that I workedwith, and I'm like, all right,
you know, once you're in, you'rein, you know.
SPEAKER_02 (21:14):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (21:15):
But at the same time, you know, you still have
to maintain your physicalabilities, and it's not even
just because your job depends onit, your life literally depends
on it, you know, like becauseyou have to be able to maintain
your heart stability and youhave to be able to just be
strong and you know be able tofunction.
Um, and but the problem is, youknow, the functional behaviors
(21:35):
that we have to be able to doand maneuver is a lot different
than the crossfit that you haveto be able to do at the gym.
You know, we have to be able tocarry 75 pounds on our back
while we're, you know,cardiovascular strength and
pulling hoses and compromisingpositions and you, you know,
police while they're jumpingover fences, and we just are
doing different positions andmaneuvers that will put us into
(21:58):
different um injury prone areas.
SPEAKER_03 (22:01):
So never mind the driving.
I mentioned that because as muchas people are driving, have you
ever driven a fire truck?
If you haven't, I don't want tohear from you.
I haven't, by the way, no no noclaims on my part.
But the point is, is like that'salso can be physically demanding
if you're hitting like you know,I've got guys in urban areas
that are very tight and verydifficult to get through.
(22:21):
And even driving an ambulance,which we're in Milford, driving
the ambulance down Main Streethere.
I can imagine can be quite anaccomplishment at uh at peak
hours, is the way I would putit.
But I I want to mention thattoo, because people are like, oh
well, I wasn't physicallytiring, but it's mentally
draining and can causephysically to be a little more
(22:44):
vulnerable.
SPEAKER_01 (22:44):
But yeah, absolutely.
But even just getting in and outof the the vehicles, you know,
like there's been guys that busta knee just getting in and out
of the engine, you know.
SPEAKER_03 (22:53):
I know a guy who did his ankle that way.
SPEAKER_01 (22:55):
Yeah, absolutely.
So, you know, we focus a littlea lot on that, it's a key
component.
But um, and then the nervoussystem regulation, so that's one
thing that I find is reallyimportant.
So learning breathingtechniques, and I know that we
hate meditation and stuff ofthat nature, but at the same
time, it's very important.
So learning how to re-regulateour nervous system, which you
(23:17):
can actually control with yourbreathing.
Uh, I know that even likesnipers or we learned in the
academy the box breathing, soyou can reset your blood
pressure, reset your uh heartrate by just like learning how
to breathe in for four, hold forfour, breathe out for four, hold
for four.
So um different ways you can dothat even before you have a
(23:38):
conversation, reshifting yourposture.
So that's something that you cando before having a conversation
with, say, a reactivenarcissistic chief.
You know, like that's somethingthat you can do before you have
experience with that.
That's something that you cando, but that can actually change
the trajectory of how yourespond or react to before you
have that conversation.
(23:59):
Um, all of these things, andthen obviously figuring out what
you're gonna eat, you know, froma gas station that you can have
that's different than havinglike bags of chips and shit
that's gonna fuel you ratherthan you know make your body
feel like shit.
So that's one aspect.
Um, and then obviously there'sum the mental health aspect,
(24:22):
which we talked about, like thepeer support.
If there's not anything inplace, we do work with the
individuals to create somethingin place.
So that's something that youknow we are gonna be talking
about in the future.
But there's something that'sincredibly beneficial to working
with therapists that work withfirst responders.
SPEAKER_03 (24:42):
Culturally competent.
I say this almost every episode,but it's so important.
Therapists are well intended.
I'm not trying to put them down.
But if you don't know nothingabout the first responder world,
don't pretend you do.
SPEAKER_02 (24:53):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (24:53):
And that's not a knock on anyone, it's just the
truth because then you lose thetrust and the first responder
doesn't want to go back, andthen they like fuck this shit.
And that's you know, the thewhole fuckets is a very big part
of the culture, also.
SPEAKER_01 (25:08):
Right.
And just not to scare them away.
Like I've heard stories abouthow you know therapists just get
a little scared or just a littlejudgmental of our, you know, bl
dark humor when in reality it'sjust we're it's really not a
cover-up.
We just do have that type ofhumor, you know, like it's not
(25:28):
being weird.
SPEAKER_03 (25:29):
You know, it's a cover-up if you do it five or
six times during an hoursession.
If it's only a couple of times,like it's just part of the
humor, and that's a survivalskill.
And if you've never been throughthat, and I'm not talking about
only first responders, workingon a crisis team, even though
it's like what I call secondresponders by the ER or even in
the community.
Um, I have a lot of dark humor,believe me.
(25:50):
And for those of you who don'tknow, ask Renee, I've shared a
few of my jokes.
Uh, but it's so important tosurvive some of the hard stuff
that we see, but people don'tunderstand that.
And if you don't have thatcultural competency, whether
it's a therapist, a program likeyou're talking about with the
physical health, the mentalhealth, I think that it's key.
To me, it's like, okay, youdon't have that training, that's
fine, it's okay, there's nothingwrong with that.
(26:12):
But be truthful because whenpeople ask me, like, I don't
know all of everything aboutfire, I don't know what
happened.
I had a client this morningwho's a firefighter who
mentioned something I've neverheard of.
And I'm like, what do you meanby that?
Well, I have enough competency,but I don't work in that field.
He felt very comfortableexplaining to me.
If I say, what's going on a run?
Then maybe perhaps this isn'tfor you.
(26:33):
So just for a second.
Go ahead.
I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_01 (26:36):
Yeah, no, absolutely.
And so then um last andforemost, which I feel like is
the most important, is theleadership development.
So that is where it's thefollow-up with the leadership.
So it's quarterly follow-upswhere we meet with the
leadership team, um, whomeverthe chief would obviously deem
(26:58):
would be the leaders, will bethe lieutenants, the captains,
battalion chiefs, whomever theywould be.
But we check in with themquarterly to make sure that
whatever we have implemented isactually working and that
they're actually checking inwith their own crews.
Because, like I said in thebeginning, that is the most
important thing is thefollow-up.
So are they utilizing the mentalhealth resources?
(27:18):
Are they utilizing, you know,the performance and the you
know, nervous system regulation,or are they notifying themselves
when they have burnout symptoms?
Or are the leaders themselvesnoticing any type of burnout
with their crews?
Or the biggest thing is to teachthem communication.
So one thing that I actually youchuckle and we're you chuckle
(27:42):
because you know why.
Right.
We both know that that is thebiggest driving force, right?
Just teaching them how tocommunicate, having a
relationship.
So I actually went through a lotof Jocko Willink's uh EO Academy
different teachings that hedoes, and he is a driving force
for relationships.
(28:02):
So really just going around andhaving a real you don't have to
be best friends with everyonethat you work with, but you do
have to have a relationship withthose that you have a crew with.
So just seeing how everyone'sdoing, you know, knowing if they
have kids, knowing how theirkids are, knowing how they're
doing at home.
You know, some things might behappening, it might not even be
(28:24):
work-related, their burnoutmight be related to the fact
they can't afford the truck thatthey just bought because they're
making more money, they thinkthey can spend more money, but
in reality they can't, you know,like they wouldn't.
SPEAKER_03 (28:34):
Let's keep the cops out of this, but please go
ahead.
SPEAKER_01 (28:37):
But yeah, it's just like asking them how they're
doing.
That could be the most powerfulthing.
And at the end of the day, weneed to have tough
conversations.
And if that is what you thinkirreparable, you need to say
that.
Like we need to be okay.
And I know that we've had thisdiscussion.
You need to be okay having ifyou have a union and a chief
(29:00):
that cannot communicate witheach other, they need to sit
down together and be like, Howdo we repair this?
unknown (29:06):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (29:07):
It's very damaged, and we need to be able to work
together.
You need to be able to say thosewords.
That's communication, and theonly way you can repair that is
if you have a third party comein and say, This is how you
speak to each other.
We have to act like like, do wehave to act like children?
You know, like we just have tobe able to communicate, and if
(29:28):
you can't put your ego aside,then you're never going to fix
anything.
And if you want to have culturechange, you have to be able to
do that.
But if you aren't willing to dothat, you have to step aside and
let someone do that.
SPEAKER_03 (29:41):
Well, I would love for people to reach out to you,
obviously, me and you're gonnahave a private conversation
outside of here, but how dopeople reach you for these
things?
Because I think it's soimportant, you're absolutely
right.
There I have another half hourof questions, but we need to
wrap up here.
So, how do people reach Reneeand go see what you're doing in
general?
SPEAKER_01 (30:00):
Right.
So you can look me up.
My business is Wayward WellnessCoaching.
Okay.
Um I'm on LinkedIn, Facebook,Instagram.
I also have a website,waywardwellnesscoaching.org.
SPEAKER_03 (30:15):
Okay.
Um I'll put that in the shownotes so that'll be easy for
people to click on.
SPEAKER_01 (30:20):
Right.
And then just at Gmail.
So all of that at Gmail if youwant to get my email.
Um but all of that is easilyaccessible, LinkedIn, all the
social media's website.
SPEAKER_03 (30:31):
Well, more importantly, you forgot to
mention one thing.
We had a whole hour, you didn'tmention a band.
SPEAKER_00 (30:36):
Yes.
SPEAKER_03 (30:37):
And if you want, Renee is amazing at her with
her, she plays with herboyfriend.
And it's an amazing show thatI've missed many times, and I
know I don't want to hear it.
But can you how do people seeyou play?
Where do they go and check thisout?
I mean, it'll be October, soit'll be a lot of indoor venues
by then.
SPEAKER_01 (30:56):
Right.
Well, if you want to see livemusic, we have a little band
called the Renee and Band,R-E-N-E, A-N-N band.
And um, yeah, we do anythingfrom 80s, 90s, and today with a
little bit of a fiddle twist.
SPEAKER_03 (31:11):
So and quite a fiddler.
SPEAKER_01 (31:14):
Electric fiddle nonetheless.
SPEAKER_03 (31:15):
So and and if you want to be sound like an
insider, ask her about the van.
Anyway, that's what I would say.
I'm leaving at that.
Uh thank you.
I want to give you your gift.
Everyone who comes on willdefinitely get a gift.
This is yours.
There's a pen in there also withresilience development in
action.
SPEAKER_01 (31:32):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_03 (31:33):
Renee, from the bottom of my heart, I know that
you may sound like I you knowme, I've never lied.
Uh, this has been truly firstexperiences in this studio, but
from the bottom of my heart,really enjoyed it.
Uh, we need to talk outside ofhere, but more importantly,
hopefully you come back too.
SPEAKER_01 (31:48):
Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (31:49):
Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_03 (31:50):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (31:52):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(32:16):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
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