November 5, 2025 • 30 mins
What if the hardest grief in your life isn’t about death, but about change—leaving a team, dropping a title, or stepping away from a community that once defined you? That’s where our conversation with coach and educator Stephanie Simpson begins, and it’s where many first responders secretly live: in the space between who we were and who we’re becoming.
Stephanie shares how her evolution from dancer and teacher to professional coach reshaped her understanding of loss. We dig into why “moving on” often backfires and how “moving forward” honors what mattered while making room for growth. Instead of chasing reasons or culprits, we explore a different order of operations: feel first, then learn. Stephanie offers embodied practices—locating sensations, sculpting feelings, and observing them—to shift from intellectualizing to processing. The result isn’t soft; it’s strategic. Emotions become data you can use under pressure.
We also reframe stress for police, fire, EMS, and dispatch. Stress isn’t the enemy; unmanaged stress is. Stephanie, who teaches stress science to future first responders, explains how too much strain overwhelms and too little erodes purpose, and why internal stressors—perfectionism, shame, the inner critic—often do more damage than any single call. From Inside Out’s portrayal of panic to practical reset routines, we map how to notice, name, and navigate emotions without losing your edge, at work or at home.
If you’ve felt the ache of leaving a role, the pull to find someone to blame, or the pressure to “just get over it,” this conversation offers a more honest path. Subscribe, share this episode with a teammate who needs it, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway so we can keep bringing you tools that actually help.
You can reach Stephanie the following ways:
Website - www.stephanie-simpson.com
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephaniesimpsoncoaching/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/stephaniesimpsoncoaching/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/StephanieSimpsonCoaching
Freed AI converts conversations into SOAP note.Use code Steve50 for $50 off the 1st month!
Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:01):
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action
with Steve Bisson.
This is the podcast dedicated tofirst responder mental health,
helping police, fire, EMS,dispatchers, and paramedics
create better growthenvironments for themselves and
their teams.
Let's get started.ai.
SPEAKER_03 (00:37):
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I'm gonna keep on talking aboutit because I love it.
I've had about a year and ahalf, 18 months practice with
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(01:19):
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Well, hi everyone, and welcometo episode 229.
If you haven't listened toepisode 228, and the
supplemental from that is LisaTrusis, who is a dispatcher.
(02:03):
She talked about her coaching,her own life experience with
substance use in her family, andI hope you listen to that.
But episode 229, I gotta tellyou that this is like almost an
annual thing.
But truly, me and Steph wereprivately talking about it
beforehand that we need to dothis more often.
Just privately, me and her.
But um Stephanie Simpson hasbeen on my podcast probably
(02:25):
every season I've ever had.
Stephanie is probably someonethat for those who are new to
resilience development inaction, you'll say, Well, what's
the coach doing on here?
Well, I'm gonna tell you why,because she's gonna tell you why
coaching is so important for somany people.
Well, more importantly, um I'venever met someone with such a
kind heart who gets it and canalso be able to deliver hard
(02:49):
stuff without hurting people'sfeelings.
So um there's a lot of respectthat I have for her, and I hope
she knows that.
And if she didn't, she justheard me.
So Stephanie Simpson, welcome toFinding Your Way Through
Therapy.
SPEAKER_02 (03:01):
Thank you.
I feel like I'm a littleteary-eyed hearing all of that.
So and the feeling is mutual.
SPEAKER_03 (03:07):
Well but I did I didn't say it for making you
teary-eyed.
I just wanted to talk to youapart.
You know, I and the other thingtoo is before we got started, I
want to tell everyone in myaudience as the end of the year
approaches, sometimes I don'tget any messages for time and
time again, time again from howthe how you like this.
And I think uh I was inspired byour conversation to say, hey,
(03:27):
listen, just give me somefeedback, even if it's good,
bad, and even it's just a note.
There's a you can just do itfrom the app, you can do it
directly from wherever you'reusing, and uh please give me
some feedback because I like tohave uh that idea.
So that was my little vulnerablemoment for me to share.
But now that I talked you up,now it's time for you to talk
yourself up.
And maybe for those of you whohaven't listened to, I think
(03:50):
it's nine episodes that you'vebeen on.
People who haven't listened toone of the nine episodes, maybe
you can do a quick intro fromthat.
SPEAKER_01 (03:57):
Yeah, wow, that is nine because we did some
one-on-ones and then we've donesome group ones.
Yeah, wow, okay.
Um, so who am I?
Well, I'm based in New York.
Um, I am a certifiedprofessional coach.
I always like to say that I'vegotten to this part of my life,
though, from being a performer,first and foremost.
And so that's, I think, actuallyhow we first got connected is uh
(04:20):
one of your very good friendswho also I think maybe guest
hosts a couple of the umpodcasts.
We went to college together andwe danced together.
And so dance and the and theperforming arts have always been
a big part of my life.
And uh as I continued on my likejourney of being a human, but
also just being curious aboutpeople and and why people, some
(04:44):
people feel more confident orperform better than others.
I was just always really curiousabout that.
And that led me to do somepsychology stuff and ended up,
you know, starting my owncoaching and consulting
business.
And and really also, I guess theother part, I'm not doing a
great job at talking aboutmyself right now, but um, what
I'm very curious about and ishow can people feel more whole
(05:09):
and like themselves and andreally live satisfying,
fulfilling lives?
And I use those words veryintentionally because I think a
lot of times, myself included,is like, I want to feel happy, I
want to feel this.
And many years ago, I was like,oh, happiness is like this thing
we're always trying to get, butnever get.
(05:30):
But how can we feel full?
How can we feel satisfied?
How can we find joy and reallywanting to like I just imagine
like if the world, if everyonereally felt those things, like
how different things would be,right?
That a lot of the disconnectionwe have is because we ourselves
are not feeling full andsatisfied.
(05:51):
And and I was really like, whenI stepped back at different
times in my life, I was like, wedon't have spaces for people to
be able to share and open,openly talk about that.
And so that was really aninspiration for I saw myself
being able to do it with thearts in a certain sort of way,
and I was like, how can I dothis in a in a bigger way for
(06:12):
people who aren't necessarilyconsider themselves dancers or
actors?
And that's how I found myselfwhere I am now.
SPEAKER_03 (06:18):
I think you did a pretty good job, but I think
you're still undersellingyourself.
One of the things that Stephaniesaid to me a long time ago is uh
I said, you know, I'm not aperformer, I don't have like
that voice or that can't dance.
And she said to me, Youentertain people through
podcasting, and people areinterested in that.
So you are a performer.
(06:39):
And it always made me think thatwe're all performing in some
ways, too, right?
When we're in public, and Ispeak particularly with my guys
from the first responder world,we have that persona, we have
that position, and then we haveour private life.
And being happy all the time isa little hard sometimes, but
that is the performance that wedo.
Steph is an amazing coach.
She's worked with schools, she'sworked with different places,
(07:01):
and she definitely isunderselling herself.
So please go to our website.
But I think Steph is someone whohas worked with a large variety
of people.
And I know that she's been onwhen it was more of a general
psychology one, but ultimately II think that for my first
responder people, you reallyneed to hear her talk about
different things to understandthat she has a range that is
(07:23):
pretty amazing and trulyappreciate her.
So please go to her website.
But I just want to play her upeven more because I truly do
admire her.
One of the things that we'vetalked about uh off air is uh
grief and the change andeverything else.
You know, my my my world offirst responders uh have a lot
to do with grief and loss.
And you know, most people thinkthat grief is when someone dies.
(07:47):
But I think it might beimportant for us to have a
discussion possibly about, youknow, I know that for you
there's been a lot ofsignificant change about your
relationship with grief.
So can you tell us how you gotthere and what your thoughts
are?
SPEAKER_01 (07:59):
Yeah, well, one that one of the things you already
said is like I felt like thestory I had in my head was like
grief only happens when someonedies.
And while I have dealt with lossin different ways in my life,
the last, I would say the lastfive years, I've really thought
about grief in a very differentway.
(08:19):
And that actually we're allgoing through some sort of
grieving process all the time.
And and when we think about likegrief is loss, there's so many
things that that can go intothat category of loss.
So, like even though I chose toleave the the school I was
teaching at that to to scale mybusiness.
(08:39):
This was like now four yearsago, that was an intentional
choice that I made.
What I didn't realize was theamount of grieving I was gonna
go through after that.
And it was actually something Ilearned more about in therapy,
in the sense of like, here wasan identity that I had for so
long.
(08:59):
Um, one of those identitiesbeing a teacher, one of those
identities being a dancer or aperformer or whatever it was.
And by me shifting, and I lookat it as like an evolution of my
career, I was like, oh, I don'tdo those things anymore.
And there's a part of me that'sdifferent, but I was also
grieving the community that Iwasn't in anymore.
And that was something I was notprepared for at all.
(09:21):
Like as much as I was excited tostart on this new venture of
mine, I didn't realize that likenot being in that community.
While I was ready to maybe likeevolve from that community, it
was just, I don't know, I just,it wasn't in my radar that,
like, oh, that's a grievingthing.
And it actually comes up a lotin my work with the my um
(09:42):
clients.
I will listen to them sometimesand I'll be like, I'm kind of
hearing, and you can tell me ifI'm wrong.
It sounds like there's a lot ofgrieving happening.
Like you had this idea ofsomething and it's not
happening, or you made thischange and you were excited
about the change, but there'ssomething that you let go of.
And and they'll I can see thechange in their face that just
(10:04):
goes, oh my God, that is it.
Like that is it.
And I do think it's something,and I love that you're talking
about it more, that we don'ttalk enough about in our culture
that like change means thatsomething has to like die and
leave, right?
Um, we're recording this, Idon't know when it'll come out,
but in October, right?
(10:24):
So we're in foliage season wherethe leaves die.
And I always try to remindmyself and clients like that has
to happen, but like literallysomething is dying in order for
things to grow.
And both can be true, right?
We can be excited about growinginto something and also be
grieving the thing that we'releaving behind.
It's not an either or.
(10:45):
And so that's that's been a bigpart of like the last few years
of my own journey and also justlike mirroring that back when I
hear it with other people thatlike this is this is okay.
It's okay to to grieve.
It's okay to feel multiplethings at the same time because
guess what?
You are.
So it's okay to name that.
And then I would say the otherbig thing that comes up is like,
(11:08):
and this, I feel like it's alittle cliche, but it's true, is
that like it's not linear,right?
Grieving is not linear.
And I will say for some of thelike more personal things that
have happened in my life overthe last couple of years, while
I know that I've grown a lot andI've let go a lot and I've moved
forward a lot in certain things.
There are moments wheresomething will come up that will
(11:28):
remind me of someone orsomething.
And I'll just like all of asudden, I'm just like, why am I
crying?
And I've gotten to a betterplace where I go, oh, it's okay
for me.
This this is part of thegrieving.
Like there's another layer thatneeds to come out, and that's
okay.
Just shed that layer, right?
That's another leaf that needsto fall and not judge myself
(11:48):
about that.
And so I do see with people thatit's like, well, I should be
over this by now, or this shouldnot affect me by now, and being
able to go, it's okay that it'sstill affecting you.
You're human.
And and that like it may affectyou forever, but the way you
respond to it will be differentbecause you're showing up for
(12:10):
yourself.
SPEAKER_03 (12:11):
I couldn't agree more.
Number one.
Number two, I always argue thatgrief never ends.
And what I mean by that, it getseasier, but it never gets easy
because there's, you know,there's gonna be an anniversary,
there's gonna be a situation,and you're gonna, like you said,
the waterworks or the feelinguncomfortable or what have you.
(12:32):
I think that the other partabout grief that people have to
understand is that we gotta beable to do so.
You know, when people talk aboutpast relationships, for example,
or friendships, or uh familymembers who you don't talk to
anymore.
A lot of people like, oh, I justwant to move on from that.
No, you're grieving it.
Stop moving on from stuff thatyou're grieving.
And that doesn't mean you won'tmiss them once in a while.
(12:53):
I've I've had some terriblerelationships uh as I
pre-interview talking toStephanie about a particular
inter interaction.
I don't really grieve them, butI also learned a lot from it.
And I think that that's part ofthe grief process too is
learning from that loss.
Uh I don't know if you agree,but that's what I totally do.
SPEAKER_01 (13:12):
And as I'm hearing you talk about that, it in in
this might feel very therapycoachy talk, but like we have to
feel it before we can then stepaway from it to then look at it
and learn from it.
Right.
And so I also like I thinksometimes people don't want to
feel the thing.
They just want to like bypassthe feeling and go, okay, I'm
(13:34):
moving on from it, or yeah, Ilearned this thing, or like
whatever, and intellectualizingit as opposed to like feeling it
first.
And I know I do this to myselfsometimes, but like feeling the
thing and really being in theemotion to allow the emotion to
like process so that I can thenstep back and go, okay, and like
I'm seeing how like I learnedthis or I grew in this way or
(13:57):
blah, blah, blah.
I've also, and I don't know whyI've chosen this, but like I
feel like moving on when I'vebeen using that word for myself
kind of feels a little likeavoidant dismissive.
And so I've been using the wordsmoving forward.
And for me, and I and I knowwords can mean different things
for other people.
For me, when I say, oh, I'mmoving forward, I feel like I'm
(14:20):
trying to integrate everythingso that I can move forward as
opposed to, oh, I'm moving onand that's like in the past and
like that's in a box and blah,blah, blah.
Moving forward felt like, oh,I'm taking everything, I'm
integrating it, and I'mcontinuing to move forward.
That doesn't necessarily meanthough, that that stuff is not
still somewhere in my body oranything like that.
SPEAKER_03 (14:42):
Well, it's not necessarily grief, but I want to
give an example.
When I did the intro, I'm soused to saying finding your way
through therapy with you.
That's what I said.
It's resilience development andaction.
And it's still missing a littlebit of like love, my work with
the first responder world.
Um, but I was talking to youprivately uh beforehand.
I also kind of like the findingyour way through therapy.
(15:03):
Do I like to hear about peopleuh talking about coaching?
I had someone last year.
I was talking about coaching uhD UN athletes and uh
professional athletes.
Yeah, that's cool.
Does it relate anymore to whatI'm doing?
No, so I do miss, and there's aparticular person and Erica, if
you're listening and thinkingabout you.
But that's grief.
That's missing someone.
(15:24):
And even though me and Erica arenot friendly like we are, I just
met Erica for the podcast andthen we exchanged a few times,
but nothing major.
But it's still grief.
I used to call it finding yourway through therapy.
That's called resiliencedevelopment is grief.
I think that what people andmisunderstand is that it's not
about theath death or gettingbetter at it.
It's just you kind of likeacknowledge it, and that's why I
(15:46):
want to acknowledge it.
I wish I did that on purpose,but I did not.
I swear to God.
SPEAKER_02 (15:50):
There you go.
That's so funny.
I didn't even catch it at thebeginning.
SPEAKER_03 (15:55):
But yeah, my my perfectionism is in the way, but
that's a different podcast.
SPEAKER_01 (15:59):
So I could talk hours about perfectionism.
SPEAKER_03 (16:04):
I I think that with grief, the other part too that
people tend to want to do is Ineed to understand grief.
Well, I can tell you personallyI don't understand it.
I have an idea, but I don't knowhow to I don't understand it.
I know that you're working on alot of understanding of the
grief yourself.
Is there something that youthink that people would like
(16:26):
should know about grief thatmaybe they they don't it's not
necessarily um intuitive forthem to know?
SPEAKER_01 (16:31):
That's a great question.
I think what comes up to mindfor me, and both of this is like
my own journey with grief, butalso like holding space for
other people that are workingthrough it, is the more that
we're trying to figure it out,the like more that it I would, I
would, I want to say theproblem, but the more that we
(16:51):
try to figure it out almost likethe bigger it gets as opposed to
like allowing ourselves to feelit, right?
Like, so I myself with mytherapist talk a lot about
feeling things versusintellectualizing it.
And so I feel even when I'mtrying to like, well, what was
(17:14):
this for?
Blah, blah, blah, or like why isthis still here, or what does it
mean, or where is it comingfrom?
Like, that's intellectualizingit as opposed to just feeling
it.
And then if we're really feelingit, then we'll learn about it, I
guess.
I don't know.
That's like a that was a roughdraft impromptu sentence there.
But like, I even just thinkabout going actually as I'm
(17:37):
thinking about this, I had animage that popped up in my head
about dance, is like the thedance work that I do mostly now
in a much smaller version ismore contemporary modern dance.
And so there is kind of like,well, let's try this movement on
and let's feel what's happeningin the body.
Where do I want to go next?
And it is very much like listento the body and move and feel
(18:01):
what's happening.
Then let's figure out what'shappening, right?
And is there something there wewant to explore more?
And I almost wonder like if wetook that approach with grief
where it's like, well, let'sjust feel it.
Like, let's draw it, let's shakeit out, let's cry, let's, you
know, where is it in the body?
I do a lot of work with peopleon like taking whatever
(18:22):
sensation they're feeling in thebody.
Like I'll say, like, well, whereare you feeling that grief right
now?
Okay.
And then we create a sculptureout of it.
And then I'll be like, okay, nowput that sculpture in front of
you.
What are you seeing?
What are you noticing?
And then being able to like behave that sculpture come from
them and then bring it out ofthem to then be able to look at
(18:43):
it, then they're getting moreinformation, but they had to
feel it and be the sculpturefirst.
They couldn't start, right?
We couldn't start with theintellectualizing.
We had to start with theembodiment and the feeling of it
and the process.
So I guess the big word that Iguess I would say is the
process, like being in processwith grief is gonna give you,
(19:04):
while it's I'm not saying it'seasy, right?
It's hard.
And depending on what you'reworking through, is gonna have
its different levels.
But like being in process withit is actually gonna be more
fruitful on the other end thantrying to figure it out right
away.
Like the figuring it out, evenmy body goes like tense, right?
And then it's creating morestress and more frustration and
(19:26):
therefore more grief.
SPEAKER_03 (19:28):
And I'm gonna joke around with you.
This is just a joke, but to keepmy keep my audience in mind.
You lost everyone when you starttalking about feelings.
Um that's that's a no-no in mybut for most people who listen
to me also respect me, hopefullyenough to know that feelings are
part of it, because I certainlythink that that's absolutely
natural.
I wrote that down because Ithought it was a funny thing.
(19:52):
One of the things that I I kindof remind people is that
everyone, if they have an ex andyou've ever been broken up with,
and if you tell me you've neverbeen broken up with, I call you
a liar.
Uh but when you've been brokenup with, you always want to know
the reason why.
And I always ask someone whichanswer will make you happy.
SPEAKER_01 (20:12):
Oh yeah, none of them.
SPEAKER_03 (20:14):
But that's grief, right?
Because we're we're not dealingwith our feelings, but you need
to logically understand whysomeone felt the way they did.
But you can't logisticatefeelings, if that's a word.
But I think that that's one ofthe things that happens a whole
lot.
I mean, and that's the example Igive about grief.
Grieve the relationship.
Even if I if I was dating JaneDoe and Jane Doe says to me, I
(20:36):
broke up with you because of howyou talk to your family.
Well, what does that mean?
Now I'd I'd have anotherquestion.
But that was an event.
Why does she make it who I am?
And then suddenly I'm like inthese rabbit holes of not
feeling anything, but blamingthe other person.
I think that for me, one of thegrief things and outside of like
(20:57):
loss of people we look forblame.
I think you talk about it.
I think one of the things withgrief is people look for blame.
Well, I look at again, I'mpointing to you first
responders.
They need to find the culprit,so to speak, whether it's a
relationship or what have you.
Go ahead.
SPEAKER_01 (21:17):
Well, that reminds me of like it because when we're
it's a sense of control, right?
When we emotions, how do I wantto say this?
We do have control over ouremotions.
I will say many of us, if notprobably all of us, were never
taught actually how to do that,though, right?
(21:38):
So it's a very foreign conceptto us.
And so understandably, many ofus are not good at it, right?
And and so then we look atemotions as being like, um,
certain emotions are good,certain emotions are bad.
And yet that's not true either.
Like emotions are neitherpositive nor negative.
They're actually information,right?
(21:59):
Like you mentioned at thebeginning, like wanting to get
feedback from people.
Feedback is just information,right?
It's like how and it's what dowe do with that information that
can create maybe a positive ornegative sort of thing if we
want to continue to go into thatbinary.
I think as humans, we tend towant to know so that we can
(22:20):
control it, right?
And when we're feelingsomething, that's uncomfortable.
We've not been taught how to doit, especially if it's a very
heightened emotion.
Because listen, I work withpeople who like can get really
excited about something reallygood.
And that's also like uh it canbe an uncontrollable excitement
that then ends up backfiring insome sort of way because they're
(22:44):
not managing that, you know.
So it's like it can go on bothsides of the spectrum.
And so the easiest way to dothat is to go, well, who can I
blame?
Because then I can have I'llhave answers, then I can control
what's happening, right?
As opposed to like pausing andfeeling whatever's feeling and
(23:04):
being like, I mean, I'mlearning, I'm working on this a
lot too, is like pausing andbeing like, what am I actually
feeling?
And for someone who's like gonethrough a lot of training and is
pretty open to emotions and allthat, there are some times where
I'm having a really hard timeactually verbalizing what the
actual emotion is, right?
(23:24):
And and the emotions that Ithink we all learn more about
are like, well, anger.
And it's like, okay, but what'sunder the anger?
SPEAKER_02 (23:33):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (23:33):
And like, or I'm I'm feeling, I'm feeling really
happy.
Well, what's actually underhappy?
Well, I feel connected or I feelsupported or I feel recognized
or valued or whatever.
Those are like the deeper thingsthat are actually like in our
body.
I think it's funny because thethe the mug I'm using today is
(23:54):
from Inside Out Two.
SPEAKER_03 (23:57):
I I love that movie.
I love it too.
SPEAKER_01 (24:00):
Um, and so I mean, and actually that character
itself, right?
Like she just wants to controland control and control and
control until she turns intountil she has a panic attack and
then like has this, you know,whole spiral and she turns into
like a tornado, right?
And what does she need?
She needs all the other people,all the other emotions to like
hug her and just bring her down.
But at the same time, andspoiler alert for anybody who
(24:21):
hasn't seen it, at the end ofthe movie, like there are
moments where like anxiety isnecessary, and they're like, go
into your big chair, get yourtea, and worry about the tests
that she needs to take.
But the rest of the stuff youdon't need to worry about,
right?
So I do think that controlbecomes that part, and then
blame is the thing that is thecontrol is the thing we want.
(24:42):
And so then the external thingbecomes blame.
SPEAKER_03 (24:45):
I agree wholeheartedly.
And for those of you who haven'tseen Inside Out 2, it's the best
depiction ever of an anxietyattack that I've ever seen in my
life.
I can explain it to youverbally, but go see the movie.
Um it happens in a penalty boxfor those people who need it to
be manly.
She got it, she got a penalty.
She's sitting in a penalty boxin a hockey episode.
(25:07):
Go listen to it.
That part I won't spoil.
But to me, that was whoeverthey're consulting, amazing,
amazing people.
Um because I've never seen itthat well represented.
SPEAKER_01 (25:18):
Yes.
It was a very that movie was avery cathartic experience for
me.
Like watching that on screen.
And this is where I thinkthere's such power in in
narratives, right?
Like whether it's reading orpodcast or or watching a TV show
or a movie or anything likethat.
Watching that and being like,oh, I've experienced that.
(25:41):
I mean, my body just likeactually released, and I was
like crying uncontrollably.
I bought both my parents next tome, and they're all just like,
oh, this is great.
And I thought it was like, waita second, have you not had that
experience too?
SPEAKER_03 (25:54):
I mean, I I was at uh I went with my girlfriend and
my two kids for inside out tooat uh drive-in.
Oh, that's in Mendon Mass, andI'm watching the movie in the in
the where when where we had ourchairs in the back.
And when they showed the panicattack and a couple of things in
the movie, and I started likehaving tears in my eyes.
And of course, my kids and mygirlfriend being very supportive
(26:16):
go, Why the hell are you crying?
And I'm like, I don't, I'llexplain later.
And I didn't personalize thatbecause I get where they were
coming from, but ultimatelythere's a lot of that movie that
explains.
And go watch Inside Out One inthe first one because that's the
whole message.
No spoiler alert, but you'lllearn that all emotions are
needed.
Anger is no good or bad,happiness is not good or bad,
(26:38):
fear is not good or bad.
It's what you do with it.
And I think that that's themessage that you're trying to
say because you talked about theprocess.
Who gives a crap about theprocess if you're not able to
observe your emotion?
I mean, at a deeper Buddhistlevel, what I'm learning right
now, and that's the learningtechnique because I'll learn
every day is when I have anemotion, not to express it, but
(27:00):
to observe where's the root ofthat emotion?
Where is it coming from?
And then saying, okay, is thisthe appropriate place or not?
Am I perfect at that?
Absolutely not.
I still struggle regularly.
But learning to observe youremotions is so key.
SPEAKER_01 (27:14):
Yeah.
This what came up for me as youwere talking about that, and
something I didn't share about,like what I do.
So my second master's, which isin psych clinical psychology, my
thesis was all around stress.
And so I work with a lot ofpeople on like how to have a
healthier relationship withstress, um, and actually teach a
class at a college here in NewYork at John Jay College of
(27:37):
Criminal Justice.
So I actually teach a lot offuture first responders.
And we talk about stress.
Well, the whole class is aboutstress, but really about like
how are you using this in allareas of your life and that
stress is also a necessarything, right?
And actually to livesustainable, fulfilling,
satisfying lives, we do need acertain amount of stress.
(27:58):
But when stress becomes toooverwhelming and too much, that
becomes a problem or achallenge.
But also when we don't haveenough of it and we're not
challenged and engaged in like ahealthy way, it also creates
like more depression or numbingout or anything like that.
And emotions are a big part ofthat because when we're not, as
(28:20):
you said, pausing and observingour emotions, if we avoid them,
that is literally the likefreeze and the flight version of
fight, flight, freeze, and fawn.
If we're overperformative or wedecide we're gonna fight back
all the time, that's the fightand the fawn, right?
And so we need some, we needthat to be alive.
(28:42):
Like there's a reason our stresscycle is still a thing in us as
humans.
Like we do need it, but peopledon't realize how much daily
things either they're keepinginternally.
And I think what a big shift fora lot of my students are they
think that all stressors areexternal things, right?
And they're not, they'reinternal as well, right?
(29:02):
So if you're not recognizingyour emotions, if you're not
like the we were talkingbeforehand, like the voices in
our head, my little gremlin whohas a name, right?
Like when I'm not acknowledgingthat that is the gremlin talking
and not me.
And as you reminded me of likesharing that with other people
for them to be like, you dorealize that's not you,
(29:23):
Stephanie, that's your gremlin.
Like if we don't, if we're notbuilding tools for ourselves to
do that, that's the internalstress that over time will
actually kill us.
Not the external, like there canbe an external thing that
happens.
And yet we actually are probablybetter at dealing with the
(29:43):
external things because we havethese plans and we know how to
do them, blah, blah, blah, andlike all the logistics.
But the internal stuff, if weare not finding ways to have a
relationship with that and anongoing relationship with that,
learning, curious, all of that.
That's the stuff that over timeactually kills us.
Literally, physiologically andbiologically.
SPEAKER_03 (30:06):
Well, this is a good place.
We're gonna pause a little bithere.
We're gonna go to uh the secondpart.
We're gonna stop here, but we'regonna start a second part for
Friday.
We're gonna release it.
Um, but I wanted to thank youright now, but I want to get
back on this stuff.
SPEAKER_00 (30:20):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(30:44):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action
with Steve Bisson.
This is the podcast dedicated tofirst responder mental health,
helping police, fire, EMS,dispatchers, and paramedics
create better growthenvironments for themselves and
their teams.
Let's get started.ai.
SPEAKER_03 (00:37):
You heard me talk about it.
I'm gonna keep on talking aboutit because I love it.
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it, and I still enjoy it.
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(01:41):
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And I highly encourage you.
Well, hi everyone, and welcometo episode 229.
If you haven't listened toepisode 228, and the
supplemental from that is LisaTrusis, who is a dispatcher.
(02:03):
She talked about her coaching,her own life experience with
substance use in her family, andI hope you listen to that.
But episode 229, I gotta tellyou that this is like almost an
annual thing.
But truly, me and Steph wereprivately talking about it
beforehand that we need to dothis more often.
Just privately, me and her.
But um Stephanie Simpson hasbeen on my podcast probably
(02:25):
every season I've ever had.
Stephanie is probably someonethat for those who are new to
resilience development inaction, you'll say, Well, what's
the coach doing on here?
Well, I'm gonna tell you why,because she's gonna tell you why
coaching is so important for somany people.
Well, more importantly, um I'venever met someone with such a
kind heart who gets it and canalso be able to deliver hard
(02:49):
stuff without hurting people'sfeelings.
So um there's a lot of respectthat I have for her, and I hope
she knows that.
And if she didn't, she justheard me.
So Stephanie Simpson, welcome toFinding Your Way Through
Therapy.
SPEAKER_02 (03:01):
Thank you.
I feel like I'm a littleteary-eyed hearing all of that.
So and the feeling is mutual.
SPEAKER_03 (03:07):
Well but I did I didn't say it for making you
teary-eyed.
I just wanted to talk to youapart.
You know, I and the other thingtoo is before we got started, I
want to tell everyone in myaudience as the end of the year
approaches, sometimes I don'tget any messages for time and
time again, time again from howthe how you like this.
And I think uh I was inspired byour conversation to say, hey,
(03:27):
listen, just give me somefeedback, even if it's good,
bad, and even it's just a note.
There's a you can just do itfrom the app, you can do it
directly from wherever you'reusing, and uh please give me
some feedback because I like tohave uh that idea.
So that was my little vulnerablemoment for me to share.
But now that I talked you up,now it's time for you to talk
yourself up.
And maybe for those of you whohaven't listened to, I think
(03:50):
it's nine episodes that you'vebeen on.
People who haven't listened toone of the nine episodes, maybe
you can do a quick intro fromthat.
SPEAKER_01 (03:57):
Yeah, wow, that is nine because we did some
one-on-ones and then we've donesome group ones.
Yeah, wow, okay.
Um, so who am I?
Well, I'm based in New York.
Um, I am a certifiedprofessional coach.
I always like to say that I'vegotten to this part of my life,
though, from being a performer,first and foremost.
And so that's, I think, actuallyhow we first got connected is uh
(04:20):
one of your very good friendswho also I think maybe guest
hosts a couple of the umpodcasts.
We went to college together andwe danced together.
And so dance and the and theperforming arts have always been
a big part of my life.
And uh as I continued on my likejourney of being a human, but
also just being curious aboutpeople and and why people, some
(04:44):
people feel more confident orperform better than others.
I was just always really curiousabout that.
And that led me to do somepsychology stuff and ended up,
you know, starting my owncoaching and consulting
business.
And and really also, I guess theother part, I'm not doing a
great job at talking aboutmyself right now, but um, what
I'm very curious about and ishow can people feel more whole
(05:09):
and like themselves and andreally live satisfying,
fulfilling lives?
And I use those words veryintentionally because I think a
lot of times, myself included,is like, I want to feel happy, I
want to feel this.
And many years ago, I was like,oh, happiness is like this thing
we're always trying to get, butnever get.
(05:30):
But how can we feel full?
How can we feel satisfied?
How can we find joy and reallywanting to like I just imagine
like if the world, if everyonereally felt those things, like
how different things would be,right?
That a lot of the disconnectionwe have is because we ourselves
are not feeling full andsatisfied.
(05:51):
And and I was really like, whenI stepped back at different
times in my life, I was like, wedon't have spaces for people to
be able to share and open,openly talk about that.
And so that was really aninspiration for I saw myself
being able to do it with thearts in a certain sort of way,
and I was like, how can I dothis in a in a bigger way for
(06:12):
people who aren't necessarilyconsider themselves dancers or
actors?
And that's how I found myselfwhere I am now.
SPEAKER_03 (06:18):
I think you did a pretty good job, but I think
you're still undersellingyourself.
One of the things that Stephaniesaid to me a long time ago is uh
I said, you know, I'm not aperformer, I don't have like
that voice or that can't dance.
And she said to me, Youentertain people through
podcasting, and people areinterested in that.
So you are a performer.
(06:39):
And it always made me think thatwe're all performing in some
ways, too, right?
When we're in public, and Ispeak particularly with my guys
from the first responder world,we have that persona, we have
that position, and then we haveour private life.
And being happy all the time isa little hard sometimes, but
that is the performance that wedo.
Steph is an amazing coach.
She's worked with schools, she'sworked with different places,
(07:01):
and she definitely isunderselling herself.
So please go to our website.
But I think Steph is someone whohas worked with a large variety
of people.
And I know that she's been onwhen it was more of a general
psychology one, but ultimately II think that for my first
responder people, you reallyneed to hear her talk about
different things to understandthat she has a range that is
(07:23):
pretty amazing and trulyappreciate her.
So please go to her website.
But I just want to play her upeven more because I truly do
admire her.
One of the things that we'vetalked about uh off air is uh
grief and the change andeverything else.
You know, my my my world offirst responders uh have a lot
to do with grief and loss.
And you know, most people thinkthat grief is when someone dies.
(07:47):
But I think it might beimportant for us to have a
discussion possibly about, youknow, I know that for you
there's been a lot ofsignificant change about your
relationship with grief.
So can you tell us how you gotthere and what your thoughts
are?
SPEAKER_01 (07:59):
Yeah, well, one that one of the things you already
said is like I felt like thestory I had in my head was like
grief only happens when someonedies.
And while I have dealt with lossin different ways in my life,
the last, I would say the lastfive years, I've really thought
about grief in a very differentway.
(08:19):
And that actually we're allgoing through some sort of
grieving process all the time.
And and when we think about likegrief is loss, there's so many
things that that can go intothat category of loss.
So, like even though I chose toleave the the school I was
teaching at that to to scale mybusiness.
(08:39):
This was like now four yearsago, that was an intentional
choice that I made.
What I didn't realize was theamount of grieving I was gonna
go through after that.
And it was actually something Ilearned more about in therapy,
in the sense of like, here wasan identity that I had for so
long.
(08:59):
Um, one of those identitiesbeing a teacher, one of those
identities being a dancer or aperformer or whatever it was.
And by me shifting, and I lookat it as like an evolution of my
career, I was like, oh, I don'tdo those things anymore.
And there's a part of me that'sdifferent, but I was also
grieving the community that Iwasn't in anymore.
And that was something I was notprepared for at all.
(09:21):
Like as much as I was excited tostart on this new venture of
mine, I didn't realize that likenot being in that community.
While I was ready to maybe likeevolve from that community, it
was just, I don't know, I just,it wasn't in my radar that,
like, oh, that's a grievingthing.
And it actually comes up a lotin my work with the my um
(09:42):
clients.
I will listen to them sometimesand I'll be like, I'm kind of
hearing, and you can tell me ifI'm wrong.
It sounds like there's a lot ofgrieving happening.
Like you had this idea ofsomething and it's not
happening, or you made thischange and you were excited
about the change, but there'ssomething that you let go of.
And and they'll I can see thechange in their face that just
(10:04):
goes, oh my God, that is it.
Like that is it.
And I do think it's something,and I love that you're talking
about it more, that we don'ttalk enough about in our culture
that like change means thatsomething has to like die and
leave, right?
Um, we're recording this, Idon't know when it'll come out,
but in October, right?
(10:24):
So we're in foliage season wherethe leaves die.
And I always try to remindmyself and clients like that has
to happen, but like literallysomething is dying in order for
things to grow.
And both can be true, right?
We can be excited about growinginto something and also be
grieving the thing that we'releaving behind.
It's not an either or.
(10:45):
And so that's that's been a bigpart of like the last few years
of my own journey and also justlike mirroring that back when I
hear it with other people thatlike this is this is okay.
It's okay to to grieve.
It's okay to feel multiplethings at the same time because
guess what?
You are.
So it's okay to name that.
And then I would say the otherbig thing that comes up is like,
(11:08):
and this, I feel like it's alittle cliche, but it's true, is
that like it's not linear,right?
Grieving is not linear.
And I will say for some of thelike more personal things that
have happened in my life overthe last couple of years, while
I know that I've grown a lot andI've let go a lot and I've moved
forward a lot in certain things.
There are moments wheresomething will come up that will
(11:28):
remind me of someone orsomething.
And I'll just like all of asudden, I'm just like, why am I
crying?
And I've gotten to a betterplace where I go, oh, it's okay
for me.
This this is part of thegrieving.
Like there's another layer thatneeds to come out, and that's
okay.
Just shed that layer, right?
That's another leaf that needsto fall and not judge myself
(11:48):
about that.
And so I do see with people thatit's like, well, I should be
over this by now, or this shouldnot affect me by now, and being
able to go, it's okay that it'sstill affecting you.
You're human.
And and that like it may affectyou forever, but the way you
respond to it will be differentbecause you're showing up for
(12:10):
yourself.
SPEAKER_03 (12:11):
I couldn't agree more.
Number one.
Number two, I always argue thatgrief never ends.
And what I mean by that, it getseasier, but it never gets easy
because there's, you know,there's gonna be an anniversary,
there's gonna be a situation,and you're gonna, like you said,
the waterworks or the feelinguncomfortable or what have you.
(12:32):
I think that the other partabout grief that people have to
understand is that we gotta beable to do so.
You know, when people talk aboutpast relationships, for example,
or friendships, or uh familymembers who you don't talk to
anymore.
A lot of people like, oh, I justwant to move on from that.
No, you're grieving it.
Stop moving on from stuff thatyou're grieving.
And that doesn't mean you won'tmiss them once in a while.
(12:53):
I've I've had some terriblerelationships uh as I
pre-interview talking toStephanie about a particular
inter interaction.
I don't really grieve them, butI also learned a lot from it.
And I think that that's part ofthe grief process too is
learning from that loss.
Uh I don't know if you agree,but that's what I totally do.
SPEAKER_01 (13:12):
And as I'm hearing you talk about that, it in in
this might feel very therapycoachy talk, but like we have to
feel it before we can then stepaway from it to then look at it
and learn from it.
Right.
And so I also like I thinksometimes people don't want to
feel the thing.
They just want to like bypassthe feeling and go, okay, I'm
(13:34):
moving on from it, or yeah, Ilearned this thing, or like
whatever, and intellectualizingit as opposed to like feeling it
first.
And I know I do this to myselfsometimes, but like feeling the
thing and really being in theemotion to allow the emotion to
like process so that I can thenstep back and go, okay, and like
I'm seeing how like I learnedthis or I grew in this way or
(13:57):
blah, blah, blah.
I've also, and I don't know whyI've chosen this, but like I
feel like moving on when I'vebeen using that word for myself
kind of feels a little likeavoidant dismissive.
And so I've been using the wordsmoving forward.
And for me, and I and I knowwords can mean different things
for other people.
For me, when I say, oh, I'mmoving forward, I feel like I'm
(14:20):
trying to integrate everythingso that I can move forward as
opposed to, oh, I'm moving onand that's like in the past and
like that's in a box and blah,blah, blah.
Moving forward felt like, oh,I'm taking everything, I'm
integrating it, and I'mcontinuing to move forward.
That doesn't necessarily meanthough, that that stuff is not
still somewhere in my body oranything like that.
SPEAKER_03 (14:42):
Well, it's not necessarily grief, but I want to
give an example.
When I did the intro, I'm soused to saying finding your way
through therapy with you.
That's what I said.
It's resilience development andaction.
And it's still missing a littlebit of like love, my work with
the first responder world.
Um, but I was talking to youprivately uh beforehand.
I also kind of like the findingyour way through therapy.
(15:03):
Do I like to hear about peopleuh talking about coaching?
I had someone last year.
I was talking about coaching uhD UN athletes and uh
professional athletes.
Yeah, that's cool.
Does it relate anymore to whatI'm doing?
No, so I do miss, and there's aparticular person and Erica, if
you're listening and thinkingabout you.
But that's grief.
That's missing someone.
(15:24):
And even though me and Erica arenot friendly like we are, I just
met Erica for the podcast andthen we exchanged a few times,
but nothing major.
But it's still grief.
I used to call it finding yourway through therapy.
That's called resiliencedevelopment is grief.
I think that what people andmisunderstand is that it's not
about theath death or gettingbetter at it.
It's just you kind of likeacknowledge it, and that's why I
(15:46):
want to acknowledge it.
I wish I did that on purpose,but I did not.
I swear to God.
SPEAKER_02 (15:50):
There you go.
That's so funny.
I didn't even catch it at thebeginning.
SPEAKER_03 (15:55):
But yeah, my my perfectionism is in the way, but
that's a different podcast.
SPEAKER_01 (15:59):
So I could talk hours about perfectionism.
SPEAKER_03 (16:04):
I I think that with grief, the other part too that
people tend to want to do is Ineed to understand grief.
Well, I can tell you personallyI don't understand it.
I have an idea, but I don't knowhow to I don't understand it.
I know that you're working on alot of understanding of the
grief yourself.
Is there something that youthink that people would like
(16:26):
should know about grief thatmaybe they they don't it's not
necessarily um intuitive forthem to know?
SPEAKER_01 (16:31):
That's a great question.
I think what comes up to mindfor me, and both of this is like
my own journey with grief, butalso like holding space for
other people that are workingthrough it, is the more that
we're trying to figure it out,the like more that it I would, I
would, I want to say theproblem, but the more that we
(16:51):
try to figure it out almost likethe bigger it gets as opposed to
like allowing ourselves to feelit, right?
Like, so I myself with mytherapist talk a lot about
feeling things versusintellectualizing it.
And so I feel even when I'mtrying to like, well, what was
(17:14):
this for?
Blah, blah, blah, or like why isthis still here, or what does it
mean, or where is it comingfrom?
Like, that's intellectualizingit as opposed to just feeling
it.
And then if we're really feelingit, then we'll learn about it, I
guess.
I don't know.
That's like a that was a roughdraft impromptu sentence there.
But like, I even just thinkabout going actually as I'm
(17:37):
thinking about this, I had animage that popped up in my head
about dance, is like the thedance work that I do mostly now
in a much smaller version ismore contemporary modern dance.
And so there is kind of like,well, let's try this movement on
and let's feel what's happeningin the body.
Where do I want to go next?
And it is very much like listento the body and move and feel
(18:01):
what's happening.
Then let's figure out what'shappening, right?
And is there something there wewant to explore more?
And I almost wonder like if wetook that approach with grief
where it's like, well, let'sjust feel it.
Like, let's draw it, let's shakeit out, let's cry, let's, you
know, where is it in the body?
I do a lot of work with peopleon like taking whatever
(18:22):
sensation they're feeling in thebody.
Like I'll say, like, well, whereare you feeling that grief right
now?
Okay.
And then we create a sculptureout of it.
And then I'll be like, okay, nowput that sculpture in front of
you.
What are you seeing?
What are you noticing?
And then being able to like behave that sculpture come from
them and then bring it out ofthem to then be able to look at
(18:43):
it, then they're getting moreinformation, but they had to
feel it and be the sculpturefirst.
They couldn't start, right?
We couldn't start with theintellectualizing.
We had to start with theembodiment and the feeling of it
and the process.
So I guess the big word that Iguess I would say is the
process, like being in processwith grief is gonna give you,
(19:04):
while it's I'm not saying it'seasy, right?
It's hard.
And depending on what you'reworking through, is gonna have
its different levels.
But like being in process withit is actually gonna be more
fruitful on the other end thantrying to figure it out right
away.
Like the figuring it out, evenmy body goes like tense, right?
And then it's creating morestress and more frustration and
(19:26):
therefore more grief.
SPEAKER_03 (19:28):
And I'm gonna joke around with you.
This is just a joke, but to keepmy keep my audience in mind.
You lost everyone when you starttalking about feelings.
Um that's that's a no-no in mybut for most people who listen
to me also respect me, hopefullyenough to know that feelings are
part of it, because I certainlythink that that's absolutely
natural.
I wrote that down because Ithought it was a funny thing.
(19:52):
One of the things that I I kindof remind people is that
everyone, if they have an ex andyou've ever been broken up with,
and if you tell me you've neverbeen broken up with, I call you
a liar.
Uh but when you've been brokenup with, you always want to know
the reason why.
And I always ask someone whichanswer will make you happy.
SPEAKER_01 (20:12):
Oh yeah, none of them.
SPEAKER_03 (20:14):
But that's grief, right?
Because we're we're not dealingwith our feelings, but you need
to logically understand whysomeone felt the way they did.
But you can't logisticatefeelings, if that's a word.
But I think that that's one ofthe things that happens a whole
lot.
I mean, and that's the example Igive about grief.
Grieve the relationship.
Even if I if I was dating JaneDoe and Jane Doe says to me, I
(20:36):
broke up with you because of howyou talk to your family.
Well, what does that mean?
Now I'd I'd have anotherquestion.
But that was an event.
Why does she make it who I am?
And then suddenly I'm like inthese rabbit holes of not
feeling anything, but blamingthe other person.
I think that for me, one of thegrief things and outside of like
(20:57):
loss of people we look forblame.
I think you talk about it.
I think one of the things withgrief is people look for blame.
Well, I look at again, I'mpointing to you first
responders.
They need to find the culprit,so to speak, whether it's a
relationship or what have you.
Go ahead.
SPEAKER_01 (21:17):
Well, that reminds me of like it because when we're
it's a sense of control, right?
When we emotions, how do I wantto say this?
We do have control over ouremotions.
I will say many of us, if notprobably all of us, were never
taught actually how to do that,though, right?
(21:38):
So it's a very foreign conceptto us.
And so understandably, many ofus are not good at it, right?
And and so then we look atemotions as being like, um,
certain emotions are good,certain emotions are bad.
And yet that's not true either.
Like emotions are neitherpositive nor negative.
They're actually information,right?
(21:59):
Like you mentioned at thebeginning, like wanting to get
feedback from people.
Feedback is just information,right?
It's like how and it's what dowe do with that information that
can create maybe a positive ornegative sort of thing if we
want to continue to go into thatbinary.
I think as humans, we tend towant to know so that we can
(22:20):
control it, right?
And when we're feelingsomething, that's uncomfortable.
We've not been taught how to doit, especially if it's a very
heightened emotion.
Because listen, I work withpeople who like can get really
excited about something reallygood.
And that's also like uh it canbe an uncontrollable excitement
that then ends up backfiring insome sort of way because they're
(22:44):
not managing that, you know.
So it's like it can go on bothsides of the spectrum.
And so the easiest way to dothat is to go, well, who can I
blame?
Because then I can have I'llhave answers, then I can control
what's happening, right?
As opposed to like pausing andfeeling whatever's feeling and
(23:04):
being like, I mean, I'mlearning, I'm working on this a
lot too, is like pausing andbeing like, what am I actually
feeling?
And for someone who's like gonethrough a lot of training and is
pretty open to emotions and allthat, there are some times where
I'm having a really hard timeactually verbalizing what the
actual emotion is, right?
(23:24):
And and the emotions that Ithink we all learn more about
are like, well, anger.
And it's like, okay, but what'sunder the anger?
SPEAKER_02 (23:33):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (23:33):
And like, or I'm I'm feeling, I'm feeling really
happy.
Well, what's actually underhappy?
Well, I feel connected or I feelsupported or I feel recognized
or valued or whatever.
Those are like the deeper thingsthat are actually like in our
body.
I think it's funny because thethe the mug I'm using today is
(23:54):
from Inside Out Two.
SPEAKER_03 (23:57):
I I love that movie.
I love it too.
SPEAKER_01 (24:00):
Um, and so I mean, and actually that character
itself, right?
Like she just wants to controland control and control and
control until she turns intountil she has a panic attack and
then like has this, you know,whole spiral and she turns into
like a tornado, right?
And what does she need?
She needs all the other people,all the other emotions to like
hug her and just bring her down.
But at the same time, andspoiler alert for anybody who
(24:21):
hasn't seen it, at the end ofthe movie, like there are
moments where like anxiety isnecessary, and they're like, go
into your big chair, get yourtea, and worry about the tests
that she needs to take.
But the rest of the stuff youdon't need to worry about,
right?
So I do think that controlbecomes that part, and then
blame is the thing that is thecontrol is the thing we want.
(24:42):
And so then the external thingbecomes blame.
SPEAKER_03 (24:45):
I agree wholeheartedly.
And for those of you who haven'tseen Inside Out 2, it's the best
depiction ever of an anxietyattack that I've ever seen in my
life.
I can explain it to youverbally, but go see the movie.
Um it happens in a penalty boxfor those people who need it to
be manly.
She got it, she got a penalty.
She's sitting in a penalty boxin a hockey episode.
(25:07):
Go listen to it.
That part I won't spoil.
But to me, that was whoeverthey're consulting, amazing,
amazing people.
Um because I've never seen itthat well represented.
SPEAKER_01 (25:18):
Yes.
It was a very that movie was avery cathartic experience for
me.
Like watching that on screen.
And this is where I thinkthere's such power in in
narratives, right?
Like whether it's reading orpodcast or or watching a TV show
or a movie or anything likethat.
Watching that and being like,oh, I've experienced that.
(25:41):
I mean, my body just likeactually released, and I was
like crying uncontrollably.
I bought both my parents next tome, and they're all just like,
oh, this is great.
And I thought it was like, waita second, have you not had that
experience too?
SPEAKER_03 (25:54):
I mean, I I was at uh I went with my girlfriend and
my two kids for inside out tooat uh drive-in.
Oh, that's in Mendon Mass, andI'm watching the movie in the in
the where when where we had ourchairs in the back.
And when they showed the panicattack and a couple of things in
the movie, and I started likehaving tears in my eyes.
And of course, my kids and mygirlfriend being very supportive
(26:16):
go, Why the hell are you crying?
And I'm like, I don't, I'llexplain later.
And I didn't personalize thatbecause I get where they were
coming from, but ultimatelythere's a lot of that movie that
explains.
And go watch Inside Out One inthe first one because that's the
whole message.
No spoiler alert, but you'lllearn that all emotions are
needed.
Anger is no good or bad,happiness is not good or bad,
(26:38):
fear is not good or bad.
It's what you do with it.
And I think that that's themessage that you're trying to
say because you talked about theprocess.
Who gives a crap about theprocess if you're not able to
observe your emotion?
I mean, at a deeper Buddhistlevel, what I'm learning right
now, and that's the learningtechnique because I'll learn
every day is when I have anemotion, not to express it, but
(27:00):
to observe where's the root ofthat emotion?
Where is it coming from?
And then saying, okay, is thisthe appropriate place or not?
Am I perfect at that?
Absolutely not.
I still struggle regularly.
But learning to observe youremotions is so key.
SPEAKER_01 (27:14):
Yeah.
This what came up for me as youwere talking about that, and
something I didn't share about,like what I do.
So my second master's, which isin psych clinical psychology, my
thesis was all around stress.
And so I work with a lot ofpeople on like how to have a
healthier relationship withstress, um, and actually teach a
class at a college here in NewYork at John Jay College of
(27:37):
Criminal Justice.
So I actually teach a lot offuture first responders.
And we talk about stress.
Well, the whole class is aboutstress, but really about like
how are you using this in allareas of your life and that
stress is also a necessarything, right?
And actually to livesustainable, fulfilling,
satisfying lives, we do need acertain amount of stress.
(27:58):
But when stress becomes toooverwhelming and too much, that
becomes a problem or achallenge.
But also when we don't haveenough of it and we're not
challenged and engaged in like ahealthy way, it also creates
like more depression or numbingout or anything like that.
And emotions are a big part ofthat because when we're not, as
(28:20):
you said, pausing and observingour emotions, if we avoid them,
that is literally the likefreeze and the flight version of
fight, flight, freeze, and fawn.
If we're overperformative or wedecide we're gonna fight back
all the time, that's the fightand the fawn, right?
And so we need some, we needthat to be alive.
(28:42):
Like there's a reason our stresscycle is still a thing in us as
humans.
Like we do need it, but peopledon't realize how much daily
things either they're keepinginternally.
And I think what a big shift fora lot of my students are they
think that all stressors areexternal things, right?
And they're not, they'reinternal as well, right?
(29:02):
So if you're not recognizingyour emotions, if you're not
like the we were talkingbeforehand, like the voices in
our head, my little gremlin whohas a name, right?
Like when I'm not acknowledgingthat that is the gremlin talking
and not me.
And as you reminded me of likesharing that with other people
for them to be like, you dorealize that's not you,
(29:23):
Stephanie, that's your gremlin.
Like if we don't, if we're notbuilding tools for ourselves to
do that, that's the internalstress that over time will
actually kill us.
Not the external, like there canbe an external thing that
happens.
And yet we actually are probablybetter at dealing with the
(29:43):
external things because we havethese plans and we know how to
do them, blah, blah, blah, andlike all the logistics.
But the internal stuff, if weare not finding ways to have a
relationship with that and anongoing relationship with that,
learning, curious, all of that.
That's the stuff that over timeactually kills us.
Literally, physiologically andbiologically.
SPEAKER_03 (30:06):
Well, this is a good place.
We're gonna pause a little bithere.
We're gonna go to uh the secondpart.
We're gonna stop here, but we'regonna start a second part for
Friday.
We're gonna release it.
Um, but I wanted to thank youright now, but I want to get
back on this stuff.
SPEAKER_00 (30:20):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(30:44):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
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