December 3, 2025 • 31 mins
A culture that actually protects first responders doesn’t happen by accident—it’s built on day-one expectations, family inclusion, and leaders who tell the truth even when the news is hard. We sit down with Doug Wyman to map what real organizational wellness looks like and why “Inside the Box” has become a powerful framework for shifting identity, policy, and practice in policing.
We start where most programs fail: leaving wellness to HR or EAP and forgetting families. Doug explains how to onboard spouses and partners with the same care we give new hires, and why a 10–15 minute decompression ritual at the door can prevent years of resentment at home. From there, we dig into the mentorship pipeline—how great FTOs set career goals, normalize therapy, and keep officers engaged long after field training. As rank rises, the view widens; without peer networks and rank-specific training, command staff unintentionally import narrow worldviews into complex events like suicide, deepening stigma and pain.
The episode unpacks procedural justice for the inside of the house—dignity, voice, clear motives, and follow-through—to counter “administration betrayal.” We name the Man Box and the Cop Box, exploring how rigid ideals make therapy, medication, or simple human tenderness feel like violations. Doug shows how emotional intelligence, conflict resolution, and the Four Agreements become everyday tools that change culture one conversation at a time. And we get practical: field officers should carry the Columbia Suicide Severity Rating Scale, because at 3 a.m. on a bridge you need the right questions, not another search tab.
If you lead, supervise, dispatch, or love a first responder, this conversation offers a blueprint you can use tomorrow—family education, mentorship, internal fairness, and tools that save lives. Listen, share with your team, and tell us what belongs outside the box. If this resonated, subscribe, leave a review, and pass it to a colleague who needs a better way forward.
Go to Doug's LinkedIn website at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/douglas-wyman-6b80852a/details/featured/
The Class Inside the Box - Focuses on Organizational Wellness and Post Traumatic growth and is for first line supervisors and command staff.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:01):
Welcome to Resilience Development
Information with Steve BeastCommittee.
This is the podcast dedicated tofirst responder mental health,
helping police clear EMS,discriminators, and paramedics,
create better growthenvironments for themselves and
their teams.
Let's get started.
SPEAKER_04 (00:29):
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Well, hi, and welcome to episode232, part two, um, with Doug
(01:12):
Wyman.
You know, like one of the thingsthat we've been talking about,
we talked about the unfortunatesuicide of your uh wife, talked
about your family, we talkedabout rural New Hampshire and
how that works.
SPEAKER_02 (01:23):
Yep.
SPEAKER_04 (01:24):
But one of the things that's fascinating to me,
right before this interview, weyou showed us a video.
I didn't get to listen to thewhole thing, but can't wait to
link it in the show notes.
We're talking about the processof supporting individuals when
they start to going into thefirst responder world,
particularly law enforcement.
Yep.
Because that's where I think wefail sometimes with these
(01:46):
wellness stuff and everythingelse.
But I'd like you to talk aboutit because I think you can make
uh a better story than I can.
SPEAKER_01 (01:52):
I think one of the things we do when departments
say we're gonna have a wellnessprogram is that it's not usually
all-encompassing.
It's usually left to like HR orsomebody that has an interest.
SPEAKER_04 (02:04):
Or EAP.
SPEAKER_01 (02:05):
Or EAP or something like that, that it's their job.
And it's not.
And like I said in the previousepisode, it's like, you know,
it's one of these things thatyou have to be proud of your
house.
And if you're proud of yourhouse, you're gonna want people
to come in.
So you want this is uh everybodyinvolved your dispatchers, your
animal control, if you havethat, the ad the admin
(02:26):
assistants, the officers, youknow, the sergeants, the
lieutenants, the captain,everybody has to buy into this.
Okay.
And it starts day one when thatnew hire comes in.
Okay, and it not only does itstart with them, but are we also
including our families?
Yes.
(02:46):
Okay, because one of the thingsis that you know we go to the
academy and get trained to be apolice officer.
We may have a degree in it so weknow what what's going on, okay?
But our spouses don't.
Okay, when we come home from ashift, um, and you saw in that
in that movie that I did showyou about the about the dead
(03:08):
baby holding your first deadbaby, that actually happened to
me.
And I was a new father when ithappened.
And it's it's like you come homeand you're like, there's
nothing, there's nothing there.
Because you just what you justsaw or what you just
experienced, even if they askedyou, you've got no words for it.
(03:28):
Um how do you explain, really?
Yeah, and you're trying to stillprocess it yourself.
And a lot of times, and thencouple that on, like we said,
you know, the 200 traumaticincidences that are so keep
compounding that, okay.
And our spouses sometimes theyyou get it every once in a
while.
How many people out there havehad, you know, uh when you walk
(03:52):
through the door and mom says,Dad's home?
Okay, what does that mean?
Right.
Okay, does everybody go runningfor the hills?
Or is it you know the kids comeup and you know hug you, or is
it does that mean that dad needsabout 10 minutes or 15 minutes
(04:14):
just to go and before he's ableto engage?
SPEAKER_03 (04:17):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (04:18):
Okay, I would submit that if it's everybody goes
running for the hills, youHouston has a problem.
Yeah.
So um, but our but our spousesdon't know how to deal with
that.
SPEAKER_04 (04:32):
But I I would argue also that we don't teach our
first responders how tocommunicate that.
SPEAKER_01 (04:38):
Exactly.
Exactly.
And that's why when you'rehaving these wellness programs
and you're putting themtogether, it's imperative that
they're included in that processbecause they're coming to this
job with no training.
Right.
And they have their ownexpectations of how marriage
should be, how bearing how youknow, real or not, how being
(05:01):
married to a firefighter, apolice officer, whoever, you
know, is supposed to go.
Okay, and it's not it it it'snine times out of ten, it's not
that.
Right.
It's not that.
SPEAKER_04 (05:13):
I I think that that's why the program is so so
important because what I explainto some of the spouses, because
again, I I talk about culturalcompetency.
If you're not a therapist thatunderstands that if you work
with first responders, spousescan come in, mothers can come
in, fathers can come in, you'vegot to be able to communicate
with all of them as well as theclient.
Without you got to do that.
(05:34):
But a lot of my guys that needthat and they really appreciate
it.
And when I say it to my, and wetalk about cultural competency,
maybe I'm getting off-subjecthere, but they're like, oh, you
do that, you let them in?
And I'm like, of course.
Explaining to a spouse from atherapist's standpoint that your
spouse probably needs 15minutes.
Not the end of the world.
Get them to just do thetransition because it's a hard
(05:56):
transition, whether you're apolice officer, a firefighter,
an EMT, a paramedic, a nurse, anER doc.
I mean, I I put all my guys likein that.
Like there's a transition that Imy ex-wife understands.
My current girlfriend, who is anurse director, who also worked
in ERs, absolutely understands.
(06:17):
But it's hard to explain topeople like he doesn't want to
talk to you maybe for 10minutes, but it's not, it has
nothing to do with you.
And you need to have thoseconversations, but you don't
teach our officers, ourfirefighters, and everyone else
how to do so.
SPEAKER_01 (06:30):
Because it it it goes to, you know, you have to
almost switch gears.
It's like you were coming from avery linear, symmetrical, do
this, do that way ofcommunicating with people to
having to be compassionate andloving and being vulnerable.
SPEAKER_03 (06:47):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (06:48):
Okay, and that can take a minute.
SPEAKER_04 (06:52):
And your authority means a lot different at home
than it means in a community.
SPEAKER_01 (06:56):
Exactly, exactly.
So you need to do that.
The other part of it is thatFTOs, field training officers
are critical in that not only incareer building, but also
mentoring this correct uh to thenewer officers that come on
board.
So finding out what they want todo, where they want to go with
(07:18):
the career, maybe what theirinterests are now, and when they
graduate from FTO, writing thoseobjectives and goals down, and
that that follows them when thatfirst annual evaluation comes
up, second evaluation, you know,are we on career track?
Um one of the things that alsogets lost too is mentoring when
(07:41):
you become a supervisor,mentoring when you become a
lieutenant, mentoring when youbecome a chief.
Because you still need people tobounce stuff off of, but you
also need support, but in adifferent way.
And oftentimes what happens isthat there's a big there's a big
(08:04):
visual change when you becomefrom officer to sergeant.
So now your view becomes alittle bit a little bit wider.
Right.
Okay.
When you become a lieutenant orwhatever, and you're in charge
of a bureau, it becomes a littlebit wider, okay.
And then like I used to say, youknow, the the view the view
doesn't change until you becomethe lead dog.
(08:25):
Right.
Okay, so now when you're chief,okay, you've got the broader
view, because you've got notonly not only do you have an
external view, but now you notonly do you have that internal
view, but you also have thatexternal view, and you have to
have it at 30,000 feet to beable to look at this stuff.
And it's important, and I'llnever forget the lessons that I
(08:45):
learned.
It's like right off the bat, youknow, my dad, when I was a kid
and he knew I wanted to be apolice officer, although he
didn't want me to be one.
Um he says, you gotta have arabbi.
Yeah, you know, you always haveto have a rabbi.
So like so, like when I was achief, I had three or four on
speed dial that had been chiefsbefore that I go, hey, you know,
(09:07):
I just need to I just need thebitch.
Or or hey, I got this situation,what's going on here?
Um the other part of it is too,and then often they get stuck in
the cycle.
And the academies do a prettygood job at this.
They do a pretty good job withtraining you up to about the
rank of sergeant.
(09:27):
Right.
Okay.
So post that it is veryimportant that if you become a
command officer to network thatway, become a part of the
organizations, the professionalorganizations, like
international chiefs, your statechiefs, um, New England chiefs,
and stuff like that, so that youcan find rank appropriate
training.
(09:48):
So you can become, in your term,culturally competent in what
you're doing.
Because you're gonna get youneed in those positions, you
need to change your worldview alittle bit and how you look at
things.
And like I told you earlier,like in the class that we teach
at Roger Williams, we've had itcome up a couple times now where
whether it be a line of dutydeath or a suicide death on a
(10:10):
department, where the chiefshave taken it upon themselves
that this is what we're gonnado.
Okay, and it was completelywrong.
Because their worldview doesn'tinclude have experience in
suicide.
Right.
Or their worldview does includenot maybe a personal experience
(10:32):
with suicide, but maybe areligious experience with
suicide as to what thescriptures may or may not say
about that.
Or um there may be some stigmaattached to that where they feel
that you know it's either aselfish act or whatever, but
that worldview is now is nowinserted into that department's
(10:56):
organization, and it may not itmay not be healthy.
And whatever that process is inwhich what you're going to do at
that point has to be inclusivebecause your sergeants are the
ones that are gonna have tomanage whatever you come down
with.
It is incumbent upon them to beable to keep the ship steered in
(11:19):
the right direction, because ifit isn't, it's gonna go off the
rails and it's gonna sink.
SPEAKER_04 (11:24):
Well, I think that I don't want to get too off the
rails myself, but I want tomention this because we had a
brief conversation about that.
That's why I think peoplesometimes feel that
administration betrayal.
You know, we'll call him Johnny,becomes a lieutenant, and Johnny
changes and doesn't rememberwhat being boots in the ground,
and they feel betrayed because adecision has to be made
financially or whatever the townmanager decided, especially in
(11:46):
New England.
I don't want to talk about therest of the country.
How do you like if you don'thave the like you talked about
having that uh environment, thatcultural competency, the
department, so to speak, to doso.
How do you deal with thatadministration betrayal or
feeling that they're like out oftouch?
Because in in Massachusetts,like, oh well, talk to the
(12:07):
union.
Okay, whatever.
Uh, but you know, how do we dealwith that?
SPEAKER_01 (12:12):
A lot of times it's using those critical critical
thinking skills in yourcommunication skills, okay, in
that some of these the some ofthese things require
conversation.
Okay, some things are gonna bewithin a chief's control or
within or within thelieutenant's control, other
(12:33):
things are not.
But those things need to becommunicated, and it's you know,
it's pretty much proceduraljustice in that you know you
treat people with dignity, youallow them to tell your story,
you convey trust trustworthymotives, and you communicate
those to them, okay, so that,you know, so like, okay, well,
(12:55):
we're gonna go for 5% raisesthis year.
Right.
Okay, well, we're gonna go forthem.
Doesn't mean we're gonna getthem.
Okay.
So that process needs to becommunicated as to what goes
into that process, and that thatdecision just isn't the Chiefs.
That that has a whole line ofline of things to go through
before it comes out on the otherend.
(13:17):
Um well, you said I was gonna bepromoted to sergeant.
Right.
Okay, well, the position didn'tcome open.
It was either cut from thebudget, okay, or the person that
we thought was leaving isn'tleaving.
Or it could be half a dozendifferent other things.
SPEAKER_04 (13:37):
Yeah, I mean what I what I've what you describe is
if you and again, with all duerespect to some of the
leadership I know, what you'redescribing is a good leadership.
SPEAKER_01 (13:49):
Yeah, you have you have to communicate to your
people, you have to keep theminformed.
SPEAKER_04 (13:53):
But what if you don't have that?
What if your leadership isn'tthat good?
And I'm not trying to pick onanyone, just being the devil's
advocate here.
SPEAKER_01 (14:00):
And I and I've I've experienced that where you're
where your leadership isn't thatgood, and unfortunately, and
unfortunately, it is gonna takeeither a really good sergeant or
a really good immediatesupervisor to be the buffer for
you to able for able you toendure that.
Or like in my case, I left.
SPEAKER_04 (14:20):
Well, that's what we find, right?
A lot of people end up leaving.
SPEAKER_01 (14:24):
You know, I left I left I left a certain department
because it uh it wasn't gonnahappen.
No matter what I did, no matterno no matter what I did, it
didn't it didn't matter.
It wasn't it wasn't happening.
Um and uh and then you just haveto find you have to find your
happiness.
You have to at some point say,is it all is it all worth it?
(14:48):
Right.
Okay, and if it is, then okay,it is.
If it's not, then it's not.
Things aren't, unfortunately, wein this paramilitary
organizations we have, whetherit be police or fire, there is a
there is a there is a hierarchy,there is an up and down.
Right um, and it does usually goup and down, it very rarely goes
(15:10):
side to side.
Um so and like I said, that'scalled gossiping, but anyway, go
down.
Well exactly.
But there but there but thereare things that again, there are
things that are within thecontrol of and there are things
that are not in the control of.
I remember there was adepartment nearby me that they
were complaining about theirstaffing levels, that their
staffing levels were were toolow.
(15:31):
And you know, and that the chiefshould you know have the
part-time officers, you know,work the shifts.
Well, unfortunately, the the thechief couldn't because the union
contract said it had to be Xamount full-time officers first,
that the the shifts had to go upfirst.
And so, you know, you have that,you have that again that throws
(15:54):
it in the mix with yourcollective bargaining
agreements.
If it's a really if it's a ifit's a good one, the the
management and the rank andfile, it's kind of a 50-50.
There are some that managementfor whatever reason gives up
some of that, gives up some oftheir own flexibility, and now
(16:17):
all of a sudden it's not,particularly if you've you
you've come from departments andthis happens to be the
department where like the chiefwasn't even involved in the
union contract, it was all theborder selectmen.
They left the chief out of it.
And it's like, uh how's thatwork?
Because he's the one you youwant him to be able to manage
the contract, and you're you'resetting him up for failure, is
basically what's that, whatwhat's happening there.
(16:40):
Um so there is, but it all boilsdown to again.
Um and we all have them.
We've all we've all had reallygreat leaders, and we've all had
some pretty shitty ones.
Correct.
Okay.
And it comes down to if you're aleader in a department, communic
(17:01):
it's communication is key.
And it's just not it's just notwhat you say, it's how you say
it.
SPEAKER_03 (17:07):
Correct.
SPEAKER_01 (17:08):
And and like I said, information is information's
key.
You don't have to give yourpeople all the nitty-gritty
about it, but you know, hey,just to let you know, budget
committee said, you know, I knowwe said we were gonna go for
five, they're offering three anda half.
Okay, or they're offering, youknow, three and a half this year
(17:30):
and maybe another two and twoand a half.
Yeah, next two, one or whatever.
Yeah, so we're so we're so we'rekinda ahead kind of ahead of the
curve, but you know, whatever.
Um, but you don't need to gointo that, well, this selectman
said this, and that one saidthat, and this budget committee
member, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah.
You know, you don't need to getinto the nitty-gritty, you don't
need to get into the sausagemaking part of it.
(17:52):
No.
But again, you know, treatpeople with respect and dignity,
allow them to tell their story,okay?
You convey trustworthy motives,and then you follow up on it.
It's not rocket science.
I I agree.
(18:13):
I mean, and if you treat yourpeople like that, I mean it's
that's essentially whatprocedural justice is, and if
you treat your people that way,it gives you legitimacy as a
leader.
And it builds morale that, youknow, hey, you know, we might
not have gotten what we want,but he told us the truth.
SPEAKER_04 (18:34):
And that's what I explained to some of the leaders
that I know that I work with islike you don't need to tell them
everything about the making ofthe sausage, as you said.
Yeah, it's being able to conveywhy that decision was made in
that way.
And I think that a lot of peoplefor forget those little things
about asking the right questionsor asking because you know you
(18:54):
talk about you know goingthrough the ranks.
Yep.
And sometimes an officer asksthe sergeant, then asks the
lieutenant before it gets to thedeputy chief, and then it gets
to the chief.
And I call that the telephonegame.
And that plays a factor too.
SPEAKER_01 (19:07):
Oh, and that telephone game, what what that
officer told that sergeant, thatwho told that lieutenant, who
told that deputy chief, who toldthat chief, by the time it gets
to the chief, it it's not thesame message.
That's what I mean.
I think that plays a factor.
SPEAKER_04 (19:20):
But one of the things that um yeah, I'd go on
and on about administrationstuff, but I want to switch
gears because I really want totalk about your program.
SPEAKER_02 (19:28):
Yep.
SPEAKER_04 (19:29):
Um I again, I I was looking at it right before, and
you were talking about a square,which I thought was a brilliant
idea.
But I'd like the audience tohear a little more about what
you mean by that.
SPEAKER_01 (19:39):
Yeah, so the so the the class that we teach at Roger
Williams to the first linesupervision section, we call it
kind of like the the thetouchy-feely huggy class, but um
and it's the end, it's the it'sthe last class, it's one of the
last classes they have um wherewe go over a bunch of stuff.
But um, suicide prevention isone of them, suicide prevention
awareness is one of them, um,organizational wellness,
(20:02):
post-traumatic growth.
It's it's an all-in-it'sbasically taking culminating
what they've learned over thepast two weeks that they've been
there and making it kind of apractical exercise into one
thing.
So you have this one employeethat, or maybe you've got a
couple employees thatsomething's off.
SPEAKER_03 (20:21):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (20:22):
Um, and whether it's you know acute stress, whether
it's post-traumatic stress,whether it's trauma, whether
it's you know, whatever's goingon in their life, something's
something's different.
But it's also about buildinglongness programs like we've
talked about.
Right.
Um, so in this in this exercisethat we go through, it's based
(20:45):
upon a movie that was filmed bythe Nantucket Project back in
2019.
And we developed this courseover it.
And we've been teaching it nowfor six years um at the school.
Um it's um, like I said, it'skind of an all-encompassing
class, uh, but it's it's wellreceived, but it's more about so
(21:10):
a lot of officers up until thatpoint learn and they still learn
about it.
They learn about how how to doself-care, self-wellness.
So this is more like from anorganizational level and
collective, it's more collectivecare than it is anything else.
Um, you know, learning, learninga little bit more about their
officers, um, and doing, youknow, maybe taking the extra
(21:34):
step with their people um in thein in with that grand goal of
creating that environment.
SPEAKER_04 (21:42):
One of the things you said when we were talking
right out there, uh you talkedabout, well, is it within the
box or within the box?
Oh, so I want to hear thatstory.
Yeah.
That was fascinating.
SPEAKER_01 (21:51):
Yeah, so the box, so the class is called Inside the
Box, and where that come wherethat comes from is um my
teaching partner, John Monaghan,and I.
Um, he did it before I he did itbefore I did it, but we've both
been to this class where it's umit's called the man box, and
it's based off of um uhorganization called Boys to Men.
(22:14):
And what it is essentially is umso you you make this box and
it's like, so what is it to be aman?
And then you take all of thesegender social constructs of what
it is to be a man, okay, aboutyou know, uh, you know, being a
(22:34):
protector, being a provider, uh,being tough, being, you know,
you get you get the whole thingcalling.
Emotionless, being able tohandle everything.
So so is is crying in that box?
Right.
Is going to a therapist in thatbox?
Is um you know having having atea party with your daughter and
(22:56):
painting your nails and havingher put your head hair in
pigtails, is that in that box?
SPEAKER_03 (23:01):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (23:02):
No, it's not.
So what happens when you're out,what happens when you're outside
of that box?
Okay, and then we have an evensmaller box, which is called the
cop box.
Okay, so so when so when let'ssay just men on a generic form
that when they uh uh startfeeling out of control or have a
(23:22):
situation they can't control,who do they call?
They call the police.
Right.
Okay, so what does it mean to bea real cop?
What what has been what has beengiven to you as a police officer
as to what that definitionmeans?
Okay, and usually it's or evenyou can do it with a soldier.
Okay, so what does it mean to bea good soldier, a good police,
(23:45):
you know, be tough, followorders, do this, do that, okay?
Well, is chronic stress andhaving nightmares in that box is
you know having to, you know,whatever in that box.
Having flashbacks.
Yeah.
So is so is that in you know,taking anti-anxiety medication.
(24:07):
Um having we had one class, aguy said, I got a s I got a
therapist on speed dial.
Um, you know, um, the otherone's the girlfriend barometer.
He goes, My girlfriend says, youknow, whenever I come home and
I'm starting to feel stressed alittle bit, she goes, You need
to go see your therapist.
And I and I do it.
Um, you know, is that is that inthat box of what it is to be a
(24:28):
cop?
Identifying as bisexual,identifying as Yeah, or and then
throw that into it, throw,throw, and then, but then that
becomes intersectionality too,where boxes start to overlap,
and it's like, okay, well, howdoes this all fit together?
Well, it does because it's you.
Okay, and then one of the thingsthat we teach in this class,
(24:52):
it's called the eyes ofoppression.
So, but how do you how do youcounter an organizational
culture?
So you've got the eyes ofoppression, you've got you've
got ideology, institution, uh,interpersonal, and then
internal.
So, so and we usually we haveusually a a couple women in the
class where we go, okay, so backin the 1970s, how many women
(25:13):
were in law enforcement?
Not that many.
Why?
Because the ideology was a bunchof white guys said, This is
man's work, okay, which thencomes into how the institution
perceives itself, how then goesinto how these interpers
interpersonal relationshipshappen, and then you as the
person in that organization haveto internally, internally focus
(25:34):
on yourself about okay, so whatparts do I snap off, or what
parts do I improve, or whatparts do I don't talk about so I
can get along in thisorganization?
Right.
Okay, so you counter that by youknow emotional intelligence,
conflict resolution skills,communication skills, and you're
able to go the other way.
(25:54):
It's that again, it's thatdiffusion of innovation, being
able being able to being able tokick it in reverse and go go the
opposite direction.
That's how organizationalculture becomes better.
SPEAKER_04 (26:07):
Right.
Well, I I go back to what youjust talked about, and what
comes to mind is I teach a lotabout four the four agreements.
SPEAKER_02 (26:14):
Yep.
SPEAKER_04 (26:15):
About not taking things personally, um, not
making assumptions, doing yourbest every day and being
impeccable with your word.
Being able to learn those fourthings is such an important
aspect because a lot of thethings like you as a cop you
learn not to take everythingpersonally until you do.
You have to.
It's just business.
But but until you do.
Until you do.
That's the problem, right?
(26:36):
It's like, and then remindingpeople constantly don't take
this personally, it has nothingto do with you.
It's not you.
You know, people will have a boxfor therapists.
That's not about me.
That's the box that peoplecreate.
So that's why I like the idea ofa box.
Because you talk about women andthen women in law enforcement.
Now they have an interject, likethey should gotta show even less
(26:56):
emotion because they're in thisjob and they're getting a lot of
people.
SPEAKER_01 (26:58):
And they gotta work and anyone will tell you, they
gotta work doubly hard becausethey feel that they gotta prove
their chops.
Right.
Even though they, I mean, eventhough they don't, I mean they
they bring an entirely differentthing.
SPEAKER_04 (27:08):
But that's what the culture is.
SPEAKER_01 (27:10):
Let's acknowledge it.
Yeah, well, that's what thatideology is, that you know, this
is men's work.
Right.
Okay, and same thing in thefire, it's the same thing in the
fire service.
It isn't it isn't any different.
Um I face that too.
SPEAKER_04 (27:21):
When I worked in the the when I first started, this
is years ago in the jaildiversion program.
I was called the Hug A Tugprogram.
Yep.
And I'm like, oh, you're gonnahug them?
I'm like, no, that's not my goalat all.
That's not.
I'm trying to just if they'rementally ill, we want to put
them in the right space, not injail.
But you're gonna hug them,right?
Like I don't know why I'msupposed to hug everyone.
SPEAKER_01 (27:43):
And I think and I think one of the things is that
they hear maybe it's a defensemechanism, but you hear it even
now.
It's like the um the socialworkers responding with police
and stuff like that.
It it's misunderstood.
It's it's it's misunder.
(28:04):
It definitely has this place andit's mis and it's
mischaracterized tremendously.
Um where I mean, because like itit even goes to our class when
we're teaching the suicideawareness part of it, we have a
a QR code on it for the guys todownload the Columbia Suicide
Severity Rating Scale.
I says, so you're on you're onthe Bourne Bridge at three
(28:27):
o'clock in the morning, okay,trying to talk a jumper off,
okay, and you're trying tofigure out whether or not you
need to take them to thehospital.
Well, the fact that they're onthe bridge should give you a
clue.
But but I says, rather thansearching for it, why don't you
just pull out either a laminatedcard or pull it up on your
phone?
These these are the questions.
If they answer four, five, andsix, or even to a fellow officer
(28:49):
that's having a problem, okay,if they answer yes to four,
five, and six, they're going tothe hospital.
And I'm like, and I'm like,folks, I says, I says, this is
the same thing that the E whenyou get them to the ER, this is
the same thing they're gonnause.
That's what I'm gonna use.
It's the same thing.
So so why reinvent the wheel?
SPEAKER_04 (29:08):
Well, I'm gonna finish on this.
I'm hoping to have uh one of thethe the initiator of the jail
diversion program, Dr.
Sarah Abbott, which I workedwith her when we started the
program.
She's gonna be on in a fewweeks, hopefully.
SPEAKER_01 (29:21):
The current director's her office is just
down the hall from mine at DMH,is Joanne.
SPEAKER_04 (29:25):
So Joanne, yeah, and I love Sarah.
I absolutely adore Sarah.
I worked with her for a while.
Um, but how about if people wantto reach you?
How do we reach you?
SPEAKER_01 (29:33):
So I have my I'll give you my uh my mass email.
So it's Douglas.wyman2 atmass.gov.
Yep.
Um my personal cell is 603 9866487.
Yep.
Uh my work cell.
It's going to be funny, but Igotta I have to look.
So it's 857 289 5993.
(29:57):
And you know, we do class.
Classes for Roger Williams fourtimes a year for first line
supervisor.
We do it for command.
We've done it for several areadepartments.
So if you're interested in it,we'll put it on for your
department.
SPEAKER_04 (30:14):
Well, Doug, I'm hoping that you come back on the
show at some point again.
Really enjoyed it.
Anytime.
My pleasure.
And I hope that we even develop,like I know I put the pressure
on you, but I do hope we developa friendship because I'm going
to be able to do that.
SPEAKER_01 (30:25):
Absolutely positively.
Absolutely positively.
SPEAKER_04 (30:28):
Well, this is it, folks.
This is episode 232 for and Ihope you come back for episode
233 and thank you for your time.
SPEAKER_00 (30:36):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
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And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
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If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(31:00):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
Welcome to Resilience Development
Information with Steve BeastCommittee.
This is the podcast dedicated tofirst responder mental health,
helping police clear EMS,discriminators, and paramedics,
create better growthenvironments for themselves and
their teams.
Let's get started.
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Well, hi, and welcome to episode232, part two, um, with Doug
(01:12):
Wyman.
You know, like one of the thingsthat we've been talking about,
we talked about the unfortunatesuicide of your uh wife, talked
about your family, we talkedabout rural New Hampshire and
how that works.
SPEAKER_02 (01:23):
Yep.
SPEAKER_04 (01:24):
But one of the things that's fascinating to me,
right before this interview, weyou showed us a video.
I didn't get to listen to thewhole thing, but can't wait to
link it in the show notes.
We're talking about the processof supporting individuals when
they start to going into thefirst responder world,
particularly law enforcement.
Yep.
Because that's where I think wefail sometimes with these
(01:46):
wellness stuff and everythingelse.
But I'd like you to talk aboutit because I think you can make
uh a better story than I can.
SPEAKER_01 (01:52):
I think one of the things we do when departments
say we're gonna have a wellnessprogram is that it's not usually
all-encompassing.
It's usually left to like HR orsomebody that has an interest.
SPEAKER_04 (02:04):
Or EAP.
SPEAKER_01 (02:05):
Or EAP or something like that, that it's their job.
And it's not.
And like I said in the previousepisode, it's like, you know,
it's one of these things thatyou have to be proud of your
house.
And if you're proud of yourhouse, you're gonna want people
to come in.
So you want this is uh everybodyinvolved your dispatchers, your
animal control, if you havethat, the ad the admin
(02:26):
assistants, the officers, youknow, the sergeants, the
lieutenants, the captain,everybody has to buy into this.
Okay.
And it starts day one when thatnew hire comes in.
Okay, and it not only does itstart with them, but are we also
including our families?
Yes.
(02:46):
Okay, because one of the thingsis that you know we go to the
academy and get trained to be apolice officer.
We may have a degree in it so weknow what what's going on, okay?
But our spouses don't.
Okay, when we come home from ashift, um, and you saw in that
in that movie that I did showyou about the about the dead
(03:08):
baby holding your first deadbaby, that actually happened to
me.
And I was a new father when ithappened.
And it's it's like you come homeand you're like, there's
nothing, there's nothing there.
Because you just what you justsaw or what you just
experienced, even if they askedyou, you've got no words for it.
(03:28):
Um how do you explain, really?
Yeah, and you're trying to stillprocess it yourself.
And a lot of times, and thencouple that on, like we said,
you know, the 200 traumaticincidences that are so keep
compounding that, okay.
And our spouses sometimes theyyou get it every once in a
while.
How many people out there havehad, you know, uh when you walk
(03:52):
through the door and mom says,Dad's home?
Okay, what does that mean?
Right.
Okay, does everybody go runningfor the hills?
Or is it you know the kids comeup and you know hug you, or is
it does that mean that dad needsabout 10 minutes or 15 minutes
(04:14):
just to go and before he's ableto engage?
SPEAKER_03 (04:17):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (04:18):
Okay, I would submit that if it's everybody goes
running for the hills, youHouston has a problem.
Yeah.
So um, but our but our spousesdon't know how to deal with
that.
SPEAKER_04 (04:32):
But I I would argue also that we don't teach our
first responders how tocommunicate that.
SPEAKER_01 (04:38):
Exactly.
Exactly.
And that's why when you'rehaving these wellness programs
and you're putting themtogether, it's imperative that
they're included in that processbecause they're coming to this
job with no training.
Right.
And they have their ownexpectations of how marriage
should be, how bearing how youknow, real or not, how being
(05:01):
married to a firefighter, apolice officer, whoever, you
know, is supposed to go.
Okay, and it's not it it it'snine times out of ten, it's not
that.
Right.
It's not that.
SPEAKER_04 (05:13):
I I think that that's why the program is so so
important because what I explainto some of the spouses, because
again, I I talk about culturalcompetency.
If you're not a therapist thatunderstands that if you work
with first responders, spousescan come in, mothers can come
in, fathers can come in, you'vegot to be able to communicate
with all of them as well as theclient.
Without you got to do that.
(05:34):
But a lot of my guys that needthat and they really appreciate
it.
And when I say it to my, and wetalk about cultural competency,
maybe I'm getting off-subjecthere, but they're like, oh, you
do that, you let them in?
And I'm like, of course.
Explaining to a spouse from atherapist's standpoint that your
spouse probably needs 15minutes.
Not the end of the world.
Get them to just do thetransition because it's a hard
(05:56):
transition, whether you're apolice officer, a firefighter,
an EMT, a paramedic, a nurse, anER doc.
I mean, I I put all my guys likein that.
Like there's a transition that Imy ex-wife understands.
My current girlfriend, who is anurse director, who also worked
in ERs, absolutely understands.
(06:17):
But it's hard to explain topeople like he doesn't want to
talk to you maybe for 10minutes, but it's not, it has
nothing to do with you.
And you need to have thoseconversations, but you don't
teach our officers, ourfirefighters, and everyone else
how to do so.
SPEAKER_01 (06:30):
Because it it it goes to, you know, you have to
almost switch gears.
It's like you were coming from avery linear, symmetrical, do
this, do that way ofcommunicating with people to
having to be compassionate andloving and being vulnerable.
SPEAKER_03 (06:47):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (06:48):
Okay, and that can take a minute.
SPEAKER_04 (06:52):
And your authority means a lot different at home
than it means in a community.
SPEAKER_01 (06:56):
Exactly, exactly.
So you need to do that.
The other part of it is thatFTOs, field training officers
are critical in that not only incareer building, but also
mentoring this correct uh to thenewer officers that come on
board.
So finding out what they want todo, where they want to go with
(07:18):
the career, maybe what theirinterests are now, and when they
graduate from FTO, writing thoseobjectives and goals down, and
that that follows them when thatfirst annual evaluation comes
up, second evaluation, you know,are we on career track?
Um one of the things that alsogets lost too is mentoring when
(07:41):
you become a supervisor,mentoring when you become a
lieutenant, mentoring when youbecome a chief.
Because you still need people tobounce stuff off of, but you
also need support, but in adifferent way.
And oftentimes what happens isthat there's a big there's a big
(08:04):
visual change when you becomefrom officer to sergeant.
So now your view becomes alittle bit a little bit wider.
Right.
Okay.
When you become a lieutenant orwhatever, and you're in charge
of a bureau, it becomes a littlebit wider, okay.
And then like I used to say, youknow, the the view the view
doesn't change until you becomethe lead dog.
(08:25):
Right.
Okay, so now when you're chief,okay, you've got the broader
view, because you've got notonly not only do you have an
external view, but now you notonly do you have that internal
view, but you also have thatexternal view, and you have to
have it at 30,000 feet to beable to look at this stuff.
And it's important, and I'llnever forget the lessons that I
(08:45):
learned.
It's like right off the bat, youknow, my dad, when I was a kid
and he knew I wanted to be apolice officer, although he
didn't want me to be one.
Um he says, you gotta have arabbi.
Yeah, you know, you always haveto have a rabbi.
So like so, like when I was achief, I had three or four on
speed dial that had been chiefsbefore that I go, hey, you know,
(09:07):
I just need to I just need thebitch.
Or or hey, I got this situation,what's going on here?
Um the other part of it is too,and then often they get stuck in
the cycle.
And the academies do a prettygood job at this.
They do a pretty good job withtraining you up to about the
rank of sergeant.
(09:27):
Right.
Okay.
So post that it is veryimportant that if you become a
command officer to network thatway, become a part of the
organizations, the professionalorganizations, like
international chiefs, your statechiefs, um, New England chiefs,
and stuff like that, so that youcan find rank appropriate
training.
(09:48):
So you can become, in your term,culturally competent in what
you're doing.
Because you're gonna get youneed in those positions, you
need to change your worldview alittle bit and how you look at
things.
And like I told you earlier,like in the class that we teach
at Roger Williams, we've had itcome up a couple times now where
whether it be a line of dutydeath or a suicide death on a
(10:10):
department, where the chiefshave taken it upon themselves
that this is what we're gonnado.
Okay, and it was completelywrong.
Because their worldview doesn'tinclude have experience in
suicide.
Right.
Or their worldview does includenot maybe a personal experience
(10:32):
with suicide, but maybe areligious experience with
suicide as to what thescriptures may or may not say
about that.
Or um there may be some stigmaattached to that where they feel
that you know it's either aselfish act or whatever, but
that worldview is now is nowinserted into that department's
(10:56):
organization, and it may not itmay not be healthy.
And whatever that process is inwhich what you're going to do at
that point has to be inclusivebecause your sergeants are the
ones that are gonna have tomanage whatever you come down
with.
It is incumbent upon them to beable to keep the ship steered in
(11:19):
the right direction, because ifit isn't, it's gonna go off the
rails and it's gonna sink.
SPEAKER_04 (11:24):
Well, I think that I don't want to get too off the
rails myself, but I want tomention this because we had a
brief conversation about that.
That's why I think peoplesometimes feel that
administration betrayal.
You know, we'll call him Johnny,becomes a lieutenant, and Johnny
changes and doesn't rememberwhat being boots in the ground,
and they feel betrayed because adecision has to be made
financially or whatever the townmanager decided, especially in
(11:46):
New England.
I don't want to talk about therest of the country.
How do you like if you don'thave the like you talked about
having that uh environment, thatcultural competency, the
department, so to speak, to doso.
How do you deal with thatadministration betrayal or
feeling that they're like out oftouch?
Because in in Massachusetts,like, oh well, talk to the
(12:07):
union.
Okay, whatever.
Uh, but you know, how do we dealwith that?
SPEAKER_01 (12:12):
A lot of times it's using those critical critical
thinking skills in yourcommunication skills, okay, in
that some of these the some ofthese things require
conversation.
Okay, some things are gonna bewithin a chief's control or
within or within thelieutenant's control, other
(12:33):
things are not.
But those things need to becommunicated, and it's you know,
it's pretty much proceduraljustice in that you know you
treat people with dignity, youallow them to tell your story,
you convey trust trustworthymotives, and you communicate
those to them, okay, so that,you know, so like, okay, well,
(12:55):
we're gonna go for 5% raisesthis year.
Right.
Okay, well, we're gonna go forthem.
Doesn't mean we're gonna getthem.
Okay.
So that process needs to becommunicated as to what goes
into that process, and that thatdecision just isn't the Chiefs.
That that has a whole line ofline of things to go through
before it comes out on the otherend.
(13:17):
Um well, you said I was gonna bepromoted to sergeant.
Right.
Okay, well, the position didn'tcome open.
It was either cut from thebudget, okay, or the person that
we thought was leaving isn'tleaving.
Or it could be half a dozendifferent other things.
SPEAKER_04 (13:37):
Yeah, I mean what I what I've what you describe is
if you and again, with all duerespect to some of the
leadership I know, what you'redescribing is a good leadership.
SPEAKER_01 (13:49):
Yeah, you have you have to communicate to your
people, you have to keep theminformed.
SPEAKER_04 (13:53):
But what if you don't have that?
What if your leadership isn'tthat good?
And I'm not trying to pick onanyone, just being the devil's
advocate here.
SPEAKER_01 (14:00):
And I and I've I've experienced that where you're
where your leadership isn't thatgood, and unfortunately, and
unfortunately, it is gonna takeeither a really good sergeant or
a really good immediatesupervisor to be the buffer for
you to able for able you toendure that.
Or like in my case, I left.
SPEAKER_04 (14:20):
Well, that's what we find, right?
A lot of people end up leaving.
SPEAKER_01 (14:24):
You know, I left I left I left a certain department
because it uh it wasn't gonnahappen.
No matter what I did, no matterno no matter what I did, it
didn't it didn't matter.
It wasn't it wasn't happening.
Um and uh and then you just haveto find you have to find your
happiness.
You have to at some point say,is it all is it all worth it?
(14:48):
Right.
Okay, and if it is, then okay,it is.
If it's not, then it's not.
Things aren't, unfortunately, wein this paramilitary
organizations we have, whetherit be police or fire, there is a
there is a there is a hierarchy,there is an up and down.
Right um, and it does usually goup and down, it very rarely goes
(15:10):
side to side.
Um so and like I said, that'scalled gossiping, but anyway, go
down.
Well exactly.
But there but there but thereare things that again, there are
things that are within thecontrol of and there are things
that are not in the control of.
I remember there was adepartment nearby me that they
were complaining about theirstaffing levels, that their
staffing levels were were toolow.
(15:31):
And you know, and that the chiefshould you know have the
part-time officers, you know,work the shifts.
Well, unfortunately, the the thechief couldn't because the union
contract said it had to be Xamount full-time officers first,
that the the shifts had to go upfirst.
And so, you know, you have that,you have that again that throws
(15:54):
it in the mix with yourcollective bargaining
agreements.
If it's a really if it's a ifit's a good one, the the
management and the rank andfile, it's kind of a 50-50.
There are some that managementfor whatever reason gives up
some of that, gives up some oftheir own flexibility, and now
(16:17):
all of a sudden it's not,particularly if you've you
you've come from departments andthis happens to be the
department where like the chiefwasn't even involved in the
union contract, it was all theborder selectmen.
They left the chief out of it.
And it's like, uh how's thatwork?
Because he's the one you youwant him to be able to manage
the contract, and you're you'resetting him up for failure, is
basically what's that, whatwhat's happening there.
(16:40):
Um so there is, but it all boilsdown to again.
Um and we all have them.
We've all we've all had reallygreat leaders, and we've all had
some pretty shitty ones.
Correct.
Okay.
And it comes down to if you're aleader in a department, communic
(17:01):
it's communication is key.
And it's just not it's just notwhat you say, it's how you say
it.
SPEAKER_03 (17:07):
Correct.
SPEAKER_01 (17:08):
And and like I said, information is information's
key.
You don't have to give yourpeople all the nitty-gritty
about it, but you know, hey,just to let you know, budget
committee said, you know, I knowwe said we were gonna go for
five, they're offering three anda half.
Okay, or they're offering, youknow, three and a half this year
(17:30):
and maybe another two and twoand a half.
Yeah, next two, one or whatever.
Yeah, so we're so we're so we'rekinda ahead kind of ahead of the
curve, but you know, whatever.
Um, but you don't need to gointo that, well, this selectman
said this, and that one saidthat, and this budget committee
member, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah.
You know, you don't need to getinto the nitty-gritty, you don't
need to get into the sausagemaking part of it.
(17:52):
No.
But again, you know, treatpeople with respect and dignity,
allow them to tell their story,okay?
You convey trustworthy motives,and then you follow up on it.
It's not rocket science.
I I agree.
(18:13):
I mean, and if you treat yourpeople like that, I mean it's
that's essentially whatprocedural justice is, and if
you treat your people that way,it gives you legitimacy as a
leader.
And it builds morale that, youknow, hey, you know, we might
not have gotten what we want,but he told us the truth.
SPEAKER_04 (18:34):
And that's what I explained to some of the leaders
that I know that I work with islike you don't need to tell them
everything about the making ofthe sausage, as you said.
Yeah, it's being able to conveywhy that decision was made in
that way.
And I think that a lot of peoplefor forget those little things
about asking the right questionsor asking because you know you
(18:54):
talk about you know goingthrough the ranks.
Yep.
And sometimes an officer asksthe sergeant, then asks the
lieutenant before it gets to thedeputy chief, and then it gets
to the chief.
And I call that the telephonegame.
And that plays a factor too.
SPEAKER_01 (19:07):
Oh, and that telephone game, what what that
officer told that sergeant, thatwho told that lieutenant, who
told that deputy chief, who toldthat chief, by the time it gets
to the chief, it it's not thesame message.
That's what I mean.
I think that plays a factor.
SPEAKER_04 (19:20):
But one of the things that um yeah, I'd go on
and on about administrationstuff, but I want to switch
gears because I really want totalk about your program.
SPEAKER_02 (19:28):
Yep.
SPEAKER_04 (19:29):
Um I again, I I was looking at it right before, and
you were talking about a square,which I thought was a brilliant
idea.
But I'd like the audience tohear a little more about what
you mean by that.
SPEAKER_01 (19:39):
Yeah, so the so the the class that we teach at Roger
Williams to the first linesupervision section, we call it
kind of like the the thetouchy-feely huggy class, but um
and it's the end, it's the it'sthe last class, it's one of the
last classes they have um wherewe go over a bunch of stuff.
But um, suicide prevention isone of them, suicide prevention
awareness is one of them, um,organizational wellness,
(20:02):
post-traumatic growth.
It's it's an all-in-it'sbasically taking culminating
what they've learned over thepast two weeks that they've been
there and making it kind of apractical exercise into one
thing.
So you have this one employeethat, or maybe you've got a
couple employees thatsomething's off.
SPEAKER_03 (20:21):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (20:22):
Um, and whether it's you know acute stress, whether
it's post-traumatic stress,whether it's trauma, whether
it's you know, whatever's goingon in their life, something's
something's different.
But it's also about buildinglongness programs like we've
talked about.
Right.
Um, so in this in this exercisethat we go through, it's based
(20:45):
upon a movie that was filmed bythe Nantucket Project back in
2019.
And we developed this courseover it.
And we've been teaching it nowfor six years um at the school.
Um it's um, like I said, it'skind of an all-encompassing
class, uh, but it's it's wellreceived, but it's more about so
(21:10):
a lot of officers up until thatpoint learn and they still learn
about it.
They learn about how how to doself-care, self-wellness.
So this is more like from anorganizational level and
collective, it's more collectivecare than it is anything else.
Um, you know, learning, learninga little bit more about their
officers, um, and doing, youknow, maybe taking the extra
(21:34):
step with their people um in thein in with that grand goal of
creating that environment.
SPEAKER_04 (21:42):
One of the things you said when we were talking
right out there, uh you talkedabout, well, is it within the
box or within the box?
Oh, so I want to hear thatstory.
Yeah.
That was fascinating.
SPEAKER_01 (21:51):
Yeah, so the box, so the class is called Inside the
Box, and where that come wherethat comes from is um my
teaching partner, John Monaghan,and I.
Um, he did it before I he did itbefore I did it, but we've both
been to this class where it's umit's called the man box, and
it's based off of um uhorganization called Boys to Men.
(22:14):
And what it is essentially is umso you you make this box and
it's like, so what is it to be aman?
And then you take all of thesegender social constructs of what
it is to be a man, okay, aboutyou know, uh, you know, being a
(22:34):
protector, being a provider, uh,being tough, being, you know,
you get you get the whole thingcalling.
Emotionless, being able tohandle everything.
So so is is crying in that box?
Right.
Is going to a therapist in thatbox?
Is um you know having having atea party with your daughter and
(22:56):
painting your nails and havingher put your head hair in
pigtails, is that in that box?
SPEAKER_03 (23:01):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (23:02):
No, it's not.
So what happens when you're out,what happens when you're outside
of that box?
Okay, and then we have an evensmaller box, which is called the
cop box.
Okay, so so when so when let'ssay just men on a generic form
that when they uh uh startfeeling out of control or have a
(23:22):
situation they can't control,who do they call?
They call the police.
Right.
Okay, so what does it mean to bea real cop?
What what has been what has beengiven to you as a police officer
as to what that definitionmeans?
Okay, and usually it's or evenyou can do it with a soldier.
Okay, so what does it mean to bea good soldier, a good police,
(23:45):
you know, be tough, followorders, do this, do that, okay?
Well, is chronic stress andhaving nightmares in that box is
you know having to, you know,whatever in that box.
Having flashbacks.
Yeah.
So is so is that in you know,taking anti-anxiety medication.
(24:07):
Um having we had one class, aguy said, I got a s I got a
therapist on speed dial.
Um, you know, um, the otherone's the girlfriend barometer.
He goes, My girlfriend says, youknow, whenever I come home and
I'm starting to feel stressed alittle bit, she goes, You need
to go see your therapist.
And I and I do it.
Um, you know, is that is that inthat box of what it is to be a
(24:28):
cop?
Identifying as bisexual,identifying as Yeah, or and then
throw that into it, throw,throw, and then, but then that
becomes intersectionality too,where boxes start to overlap,
and it's like, okay, well, howdoes this all fit together?
Well, it does because it's you.
Okay, and then one of the thingsthat we teach in this class,
(24:52):
it's called the eyes ofoppression.
So, but how do you how do youcounter an organizational
culture?
So you've got the eyes ofoppression, you've got you've
got ideology, institution, uh,interpersonal, and then
internal.
So, so and we usually we haveusually a a couple women in the
class where we go, okay, so backin the 1970s, how many women
(25:13):
were in law enforcement?
Not that many.
Why?
Because the ideology was a bunchof white guys said, This is
man's work, okay, which thencomes into how the institution
perceives itself, how then goesinto how these interpers
interpersonal relationshipshappen, and then you as the
person in that organization haveto internally, internally focus
(25:34):
on yourself about okay, so whatparts do I snap off, or what
parts do I improve, or whatparts do I don't talk about so I
can get along in thisorganization?
Right.
Okay, so you counter that by youknow emotional intelligence,
conflict resolution skills,communication skills, and you're
able to go the other way.
(25:54):
It's that again, it's thatdiffusion of innovation, being
able being able to being able tokick it in reverse and go go the
opposite direction.
That's how organizationalculture becomes better.
SPEAKER_04 (26:07):
Right.
Well, I I go back to what youjust talked about, and what
comes to mind is I teach a lotabout four the four agreements.
SPEAKER_02 (26:14):
Yep.
SPEAKER_04 (26:15):
About not taking things personally, um, not
making assumptions, doing yourbest every day and being
impeccable with your word.
Being able to learn those fourthings is such an important
aspect because a lot of thethings like you as a cop you
learn not to take everythingpersonally until you do.
You have to.
It's just business.
But but until you do.
Until you do.
That's the problem, right?
(26:36):
It's like, and then remindingpeople constantly don't take
this personally, it has nothingto do with you.
It's not you.
You know, people will have a boxfor therapists.
That's not about me.
That's the box that peoplecreate.
So that's why I like the idea ofa box.
Because you talk about women andthen women in law enforcement.
Now they have an interject, likethey should gotta show even less
(26:56):
emotion because they're in thisjob and they're getting a lot of
people.
SPEAKER_01 (26:58):
And they gotta work and anyone will tell you, they
gotta work doubly hard becausethey feel that they gotta prove
their chops.
Right.
Even though they, I mean, eventhough they don't, I mean they
they bring an entirely differentthing.
SPEAKER_04 (27:08):
But that's what the culture is.
SPEAKER_01 (27:10):
Let's acknowledge it.
Yeah, well, that's what thatideology is, that you know, this
is men's work.
Right.
Okay, and same thing in thefire, it's the same thing in the
fire service.
It isn't it isn't any different.
Um I face that too.
SPEAKER_04 (27:21):
When I worked in the the when I first started, this
is years ago in the jaildiversion program.
I was called the Hug A Tugprogram.
Yep.
And I'm like, oh, you're gonnahug them?
I'm like, no, that's not my goalat all.
That's not.
I'm trying to just if they'rementally ill, we want to put
them in the right space, not injail.
But you're gonna hug them,right?
Like I don't know why I'msupposed to hug everyone.
SPEAKER_01 (27:43):
And I think and I think one of the things is that
they hear maybe it's a defensemechanism, but you hear it even
now.
It's like the um the socialworkers responding with police
and stuff like that.
It it's misunderstood.
It's it's it's misunder.
(28:04):
It definitely has this place andit's mis and it's
mischaracterized tremendously.
Um where I mean, because like itit even goes to our class when
we're teaching the suicideawareness part of it, we have a
a QR code on it for the guys todownload the Columbia Suicide
Severity Rating Scale.
I says, so you're on you're onthe Bourne Bridge at three
(28:27):
o'clock in the morning, okay,trying to talk a jumper off,
okay, and you're trying tofigure out whether or not you
need to take them to thehospital.
Well, the fact that they're onthe bridge should give you a
clue.
But but I says, rather thansearching for it, why don't you
just pull out either a laminatedcard or pull it up on your
phone?
These these are the questions.
If they answer four, five, andsix, or even to a fellow officer
(28:49):
that's having a problem, okay,if they answer yes to four,
five, and six, they're going tothe hospital.
And I'm like, and I'm like,folks, I says, I says, this is
the same thing that the E whenyou get them to the ER, this is
the same thing they're gonnause.
That's what I'm gonna use.
It's the same thing.
So so why reinvent the wheel?
SPEAKER_04 (29:08):
Well, I'm gonna finish on this.
I'm hoping to have uh one of thethe the initiator of the jail
diversion program, Dr.
Sarah Abbott, which I workedwith her when we started the
program.
She's gonna be on in a fewweeks, hopefully.
SPEAKER_01 (29:21):
The current director's her office is just
down the hall from mine at DMH,is Joanne.
SPEAKER_04 (29:25):
So Joanne, yeah, and I love Sarah.
I absolutely adore Sarah.
I worked with her for a while.
Um, but how about if people wantto reach you?
How do we reach you?
SPEAKER_01 (29:33):
So I have my I'll give you my uh my mass email.
So it's Douglas.wyman2 atmass.gov.
Yep.
Um my personal cell is 603 9866487.
Yep.
Uh my work cell.
It's going to be funny, but Igotta I have to look.
So it's 857 289 5993.
(29:57):
And you know, we do class.
Classes for Roger Williams fourtimes a year for first line
supervisor.
We do it for command.
We've done it for several areadepartments.
So if you're interested in it,we'll put it on for your
department.
SPEAKER_04 (30:14):
Well, Doug, I'm hoping that you come back on the
show at some point again.
Really enjoyed it.
Anytime.
My pleasure.
And I hope that we even develop,like I know I put the pressure
on you, but I do hope we developa friendship because I'm going
to be able to do that.
SPEAKER_01 (30:25):
Absolutely positively.
Absolutely positively.
SPEAKER_04 (30:28):
Well, this is it, folks.
This is episode 232 for and Ihope you come back for episode
233 and thank you for your time.
SPEAKER_00 (30:36):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(31:00):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
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