December 12, 2025 • 29 mins
The silence after the last shift can be deafening. We dive into what really happens when the badge comes off and the calls stop, tracing the steep drop from team identity and adrenaline to isolation, substance use, and rising suicide risk. With honesty and urgency, we unpack why retirement hits first responders so hard and outline a practical safety net that works in the real world.
We talk through the addictive rhythm of police, fire, EMS, and corrections work—why the culture bonds like family, and why role loss feels like grief, not change management. From the “greatest show in town” to the long, quiet afternoons, we map the transition pitfalls: relationship strain, gambling, financial pressure, heavy drinking, and access to means. Then we move to solutions that stick: QPR training for everyone, union-led outreach to members on injury or IA, and a retiree association built on peer mentors, quarterly meetups, and easy referral to culture-competent clinicians and recovery coaches.
Therapy only helps when it respects the culture. We make the case for long-term, stigma-free care that starts at the kitchen table, not a clipboard wall. Leaders play a decisive role, too: fund peer teams, protect privacy, standardize evaluations, and create fair return-to-duty paths that treat mental health injuries like broken bones. Fire service models show how trust grows when unions hold the keys and chiefs clear the way. Our aim is simple—keep people connected, valued, and alive long after the radio goes quiet.
If this conversation resonates, share it with your crew, subscribe for more candid tools and stories, and leave a review to help other first responders find us. Your voice can pull someone back from the edge.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:01):
Welcome to Resilience Development and
Action with Steve Beast Home.
This is the podcast dedicated tofirst responder mental health,
helping police, higher, EMS,dispatchers, and paramedics
create better growthenvironments for themselves and
their teams.
Let's get started.
SPEAKER_01 (00:29):
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(00:51):
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Well, hi everyone.
And this is not going to be anew numbered episode because I'm
just having a great time withJoe.
(01:13):
I want people to really uh gosee uh Tribezotis, all the stuff
that he's doing.
And we were having aconversation like 30 minutes is
not enough.
You'll have to come back becauseI'm just we're gonna blow this
one out too.
But one of the things we talkedabout, and I think it's
important to think about, is theretirement for our guys.
Yeah.
Because it's like I'm not sayingthat business doesn't have that,
(01:35):
and I'm not trying to put downany other businesses.
However, I think that the thestress of that role loss for
people is humongous.
The lack of support is sometimesa problem, too.
SPEAKER_02 (01:47):
Well, uh, you know, as you know and I know, and
again, my wheelhouse is drug andalcohol, suicide education, pair
support.
You you guys are traumatherapists, you guys do with the
grief.
When we come into this field,most of us, you know, when you
go to an academy, for somepeople it it's traumatic.
Um I came out of the military.
(02:08):
Um it becomes a you know, thisteam and then this family.
Um, I can honestly say a lot ofthe folks that joined the
military had didn't have a greatfamily upbringing, right?
That's why they join.
Right.
And then we become part of that.
Why do people join gangs?
It's their family, right?
And then you get the team aspectof it, which we love.
Right.
And let's not kid ourselves.
(02:28):
There's some of the researchthat me and my partner did is
that the job is addicting, it'ssexual.
And if you're not, if you'renot, if you can't understand
that you don't know what the jobis.
You've never been in a you'venever been, you for the
firefighters when they call outa work and fire, um, it's the
it's it's it's it's the biggestorgasm going.
(02:49):
For me, it's the shorts-firedcall.
Uh every night it's a different,it's the greatest show, greatest
show in town.
So now, when you're running atthat level, and you worked hard
for eight, I think the academiesare 34 weeks now, went through
with 16.
And you know, military policeschool back then, I think my it
was 14 weeks.
We did basic and AIT all atonce.
(03:12):
So when you look at the level oftraining that we got, and we
work our rear ends, you know,you're talking taking a test,
passing the audible boards.
You know, you work your rear endto get to that academy date,
right?
And then some academies arestronger than we know the Mass
Day Police.
They their standard is like theMarine Corps.
They do a phenomenal job.
Then you get the Boston PD,which I'm gonna go on the limb
(03:34):
and say it's the best academy inthe country.
Boston PD teaches their cops,unlike anyone else, how to be
that community interface.
Um, I wish everybody can goevery city cop can go to Boston.
They do that good of a job.
I I've always been a fan of thework that Boston does and the
state police, but differentroles.
(03:55):
Totally different roles.
SPEAKER_01 (03:56):
Different, but you know, you need to have different
because of the training, it'sspecialized for that.
Like a steady is way different.
SPEAKER_02 (04:03):
One one one trooper, one riot, they're out there with
no backup.
Right.
You know, it's it's just theydid and they do a great job.
SPEAKER_01 (04:08):
Being on the side of the road on when you're on 90 or
95 is a different ball game.
SPEAKER_02 (04:12):
Yeah, you're human trafficking.
Yeah, and and they do good intheir service units do a great
job.
Their wellness unit isphenomenal.
Um, they do great work, uh,they've come a long way.
They do a work couple.
But what I'm getting at, so wego all this stuff.
Now you come in the job and youbecome part of this cohesive
unit.
Right.
And you're sold it's family, andyou got the blue line, and
you're going to the wakes, andyou're going to the funerals,
(04:34):
and at any minute it's gone.
And when it's gone, I've beenthere, folks, it's gone.
And you you when you're there,you're a guest, when you're
gone, you're a pest.
And all of a sudden you're athome.
You know, the week before you'rechasing bad guys, and now in my
case, I was a stay-at-home dadusing duct tape to put my kid's
diaper on because I would mywife was doing all that.
(04:55):
Yeah.
And and now I'm isolating.
Nobody's calling you.
It's not that they don't want tocall you, they don't want to
catch what you have.
It's called retirement.
Right.
And you're isolating, and youknow how self-medicating with
alcohol was my thing.
And you're not talking tosomeone I was the hypocrite
because I was the stressed guy.
We called them back then.
And this is what happens.
(05:16):
You lose your identity becauseyou're souls, because it is, I
don't care.
People, oh, it's not youridentity, it's just a job.
That's bullshit.
Correct.
It it is bullshit.
And you have to, it's a grievingprocess.
And when you leave thatprofession, if you don't walk
talk to a Steve or a Hayden or aKathy or Jane or an Amy, you're
you're gonna get in trouble.
(05:36):
Or a pair.
And this is what we've seen whenwe start looking at our suicides
and we start looking at oursubstance abuse, our highest
population right now, the onesthat we can track, um, our
cardio issues, our stress arehuge, cancer issues.
We look at our retirees, and ourretirees, we're not talking the
guy that makes it to 65, we'retalking the Joe Razutis that are
(05:58):
45, you got to leave the job.
We're talking the officer thatgets hurt in the line of duty
with two years on the job.
We're talking these people.
Um now you get a physicalinjury, and now the
Commonwealth, we've got tochange the laws.
We're we're told we can onlymake so much money.
Right.
And and now we're we're we'repenalizing us for doing our
jobs.
So this whole thing going onthat we we we pushed away.
(06:20):
Right.
We pushed.
We didn't want to know it.
And thank God I get some goodmanagers, and Tom Truckle being
one.
Um, I wanted to do this, andJane wanted to talk about the
retirement stuff for years.
Hayden, I know Hayden's been onHayden's, I swear I got my help
was Hayden.
Um so finally, you know, um,like I said, Dr.
Otama in California, with firstrespond to wellness, he does a
(06:41):
30-day program.
So I said, we got to do betterhere in Mass.
So we just rolled out a programat NEBPA.
Um, we're gonna have anassociation of retirees, and
we're gonna have mentors.
Um, they're all peer-trained,number one, to the state's
standard, uh to the Mitchellmodel.
Um, some of them are gonna berecovered.
We we also rolled out a recoverycoach program just for fresh
(07:02):
responders.
And these are peers um that havebeen successful in retirement.
Yeah.
That do well business andwhatnot.
And we're gonna offer uh anassociation where once a quarter
they can come in have lunch andwe can network.
Um we're gonna offer individualcounseling through Jane and
myself, where um if they want totalk to somebody, they can talk
(07:23):
to LCSW or they can talk to meon the drug and alcohol through
the union.
And we're gonna also offer thatpeer mentoring.
So there's a couple of phases,and we just rolled it out, and
we're in the process of puttingit out with the NABPA.
And um, I think it's gonna work.
I think it's got legs becausewhen we when they leave the
union, we they they leave.
(07:44):
Now we're bringing them back inand say, listen, you you still
got a lot of value.
Right.
And they can help us raise, youknow, do awareness, um, and just
checking in.
Um, so I think it's gonna be agood thing it's a good thing,
and it's something we had to godo.
Um substance abuse goes hand tohand when you isolate.
(08:05):
And then people think they'regonna do the geo geographical
cure, they go to Florida.
Yeah, you know, and what do theydo down there?
They go back on the policedepartment.
Yeah, it's insane, right?
SPEAKER_01 (08:15):
You know, I know I met a guy last year when I was
in Florida, and he's like, Oh, Iused to be a cop up because I
told him I was from Mass, andlike, name me where you live.
I'm like, you're not gonna knowwhere that is.
He's like, try me.
And I told him.
And he goes, Oh, yeah, I was aHaveral cop for I'm like, oh.
I was like, that's why you lookold.
SPEAKER_02 (08:31):
Again, when I do I, you know who does, you know, the
firefighters, um, thecorrections offices, um it's
it's every it's everyone, thedispatchers.
Police have the hottest time.
Um fire service, they alwaysused to have a side hustle.
Right.
We used to hire them becausecops can't bang a nail.
Um and then what happened is uhthey all go out and become
(08:52):
paramedics, and now they'reworking their side hustle and
they're seeing trauma, trauma,trauma, trauma.
Right.
And then they wonder why they'rewe're having a problem in the
fire service.
Um corrections is the unsungheroes.
I love these guys, I could neverdo the job.
I crapped my parents the firsttime I went to Bridgewater
Correctional Facility.
Uh I don't know how they do it.
(09:13):
I'm glad they get a 20-yearretirement.
My boss, Tom Treco, as you know,was the director.
Uh I we don't do enough forthose poor people.
The county corrections are alittle bit better because they
go out in the community and theywork the road a little bit and
they get they do a lot with thecommunity.
And I like the work they'redoing on recovery, but even
them, when they leave there, umdebt networking seems to go
(09:36):
away.
SPEAKER_01 (09:37):
Well, you know, this is a couple of things that I
want to mention.
So, shout out to my group on Ihave my group at 7 p.m.
every Tuesday.
Yeah, absolutely.
I'd say half of them areretired, and half of them, like
when I told them it's gonna hityou with a ton of bricks, now
like after six months, they go,You aren't kidding.
And I'm like, Yeah, no kidding,because that's this, this is
your role for like I don't carewhat people say, it's not the
(09:58):
same.
If you were like a CEO, youcan't carry that elsewhere.
You don't stop being a cop, youdon't stop being a firefighter,
an EMT, or paramedic, or adispatcher for that matter.
And I think that that's thechange in role.
And one of the things that I'vefaced a lot, and I think this is
the other harder conversation weneed to have, is some of these
guys they get so down onthemselves, not only do they get
substance abuse, but whathappens with substance abuse?
(10:20):
Now you start thinking, what thefuck am I doing here?
Should I kill myself?
And suicide's a big problem,too.
Huge.
I think we couldn't talk aboutthe medical.
I mean, I've had guys like sixmonths out of retirement fucking
drop that.
SPEAKER_02 (10:31):
We just had that beautiful individual, the chief,
right next door.
I mean, retired a couple ofyears, and we see that all the
time.
SPEAKER_01 (10:39):
Because they're not ready, and that's because and
some of them like you know, likethey get to a point where they
don't feel good about themselvesand this and that.
There's I would love to talkabout that in the retirement
world, but I also think it'svery important to start breaking
that stigma on the level ofcorrection is another passion of
mine.
Yeah, I know you're same with mypartner Jane.
She's just I that's my that's mypeep peeps.
(10:59):
I think I've been to everyfacility in Massachusetts except
a couple.
Um, but I think that what thebottom line is, I I was the
therapist, just for the record.
Uh but uh all joking aside,let's go back to suicide.
I don't know where to startbecause I would say to you that
if we're not making it easythrough administration, through
(11:23):
even anything else, I see it allthe time.
You gotta you peer support mightbe enough.
It's maybe a shameful thing togo to on-site, and now they're
like, Well, what am I gonna do?
And because of the substance,you lack judgment, and what who
has the best drugs and orweapons available to them is
first responders.
SPEAKER_02 (11:44):
Yeah, and we we know the statistics from the VA.
Some will go back and forth.
My statistics, I usually useKaren Solman from Blue Help.
Linda Kakulis is doing greatwork.
I hope you're on their badge.
And but you know, I'm gonna sayactually, I was just honored to
ask to take part, and I can't,uh, in a um think tank with DOJ.
They invited me down toMaryland.
(12:05):
My wife's gonna be in France,and I I really I'm gonna I want
to go down there just to behonored to be part of a
conversation for the nationallaw enforcement.
For safe leo.
If you don't know Safe Leo, uhfire police, go online, get
involved with it.
It's for nothing.
100%.
Safe Leo program is is I've beeninvolved with the gecko.
Some of the resources are there.
(12:26):
It's for nothing.
DOJ puts it a great product out.
So I think, you know, let's talkabout suicide.
Let's talk about a we did a uhwell, you guys in the
psychobabble world called uhhypothesis.
And I love talking about thisbecause I don't, you know, we're
we're up at on site one day, andI work with two amazing civilian
(12:46):
therapists, and they come from adifferent world a little bit.
And and my I lost my bestfriend, I consider one of our
good solid friends, my boss.
There's police suicide.
I've lost my first suicide, itwas a kid I put in the National
Guard as a recruiter, and I wasa full-timer for the Guard MP
company, and my best friend wason Revere PD and responded to
(13:07):
our best friend that I put in,uh Brian Chate, God rest the
soul, he committed suicide.
So it was my first exposure.
I had to, and what bothered mewith that was I had to go out
and investigate that as one ofmy own.
My friend I was a 21,23-year-old kid working for the
guard.
And I remember, because I have alearning disability, I was more
upset with my boss red penning.
(13:27):
I I flipped brain, Brian tobrain, and he went up.
Well, no, my best friend justdied of a suicide, and you're
worried about a typo and afucking type, you know.
And this is what what stuck withme, right?
And I pushed that one down.
Um, so let's talk about suicide.
One thing we realized, me and mypartner, Jane, we were at
(13:47):
OnSight, I said, you know, let'sI come from a police background.
Let's do talk about a profile.
You guys call it hypothesis.
So when we think, you know, ifback in the day we had the three
B's, remember the three B's?
We can't politically correctwould be, you know, we'll we'll
call it, you know,relationships, financial, and
substance.
(14:07):
Okay.
But I remember the three B's.
Okay, the three B's.
Now, that was told to me, Kid,you know, as an old time, kid,
you know, be careful of these.
It happened to me in my career,right?
So now if we realized, and I wastalking when you're a
practitioner, what do you see?
Okay, we're on to something.
So we we started a relationshipgroup up at on site, and we told
Hayden about what our what ourwork was.
(14:29):
We're looking at this.
He said, Well, put it on youknow, paper.
I brought it to the and it wasthe FOP Wellness Conference
number two, and I ran it throughDr.
Coughlin, I ran it, you know,ran it by Schlosser, just the
best of best, Sherry.
Like, yeah, you know, how'd youcome up with that?
I work with this pretty you knowwild clinician seen this.
So then we started asking in thegroup, and we said, Hey, listen,
(14:52):
has anybody in this group, therelationship group, had these
things?
And then have you ever hadthoughts of suicide?
And out of the group out of uhthe six that would be there,
three, and then we'd have one ortwo that actually had a plan.
So now we know we're on tosomething.
So now we bring it to the fieldand like, hey, listen, even on
your end, you know, you'retalking to a first responder,
and if you see um that they'regambling a lot, you know, which
(15:14):
is gambling is uh Dave Nagel,great guy.
If you ever want to researchsomebody who state rep that does
great work on gambling, lost itall.
And he and he, you know,gambling's a new thing that
we're seeing.
So you'll see all these thingsif you have if you go outside
your marriage, like a lot of usunfortunately did do.
SPEAKER_01 (15:35):
And it's a stereotype for a reason.
SPEAKER_02 (15:37):
Then it happens, is then there's the the hamster
will.
Then you feel guilt, youself-medicate, right?
So you know where I'm going.
You start going to this thefinancial piece, then you're at
the point where there's no hope,and then you're sitting there
looking at the gun and the rope.
And so it's it didn't take arocket scientist from Revere to
figure that this is commonsense.
If we see these indicators,right, we need to say something
(16:02):
or step in.
Then what we figured, okay,let's start training people up
on QPR, you know, qualify,persuade, and re-r uh refer.
Simple three things.
If you get a chance to do thattraining, it's the best in the
world.
Just identify these people,you're not ratting them out.
Talk to them.
Hey, you're having a hard time,you're out of the bed, what's
going on?
Why don't you go talk tosomebody?
(16:24):
Well, I'm afraid to because nowwe've got the post in
Massachusetts.
We're gonna worry about the copslosing their licenses.
SPEAKER_01 (16:30):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (16:30):
You know, think oh we got Dr.
Bluestone, she she understandsit.
She's amazing, she absolutelyis.
And uh hopefully she'll be atthe meeting next week.
She gets it.
But I can't say you know, forthe rest of them, you know
what's going on.
So if we could see thoseindicators, we can start to
address them.
So we did because the voice ofthe union, a strong union, and
(16:50):
with Tom, uh, we're educatingall our presidents and reps.
If you have somebody go out oninternal affairs, you get
somebody going out injured.
Make contact with them, referthem to us.
Just talk to them.
If you see if you see somebodythat's drinking too much, don't
just think it's part of theculture.
(17:12):
Just say something.
SPEAKER_01 (17:15):
It used to be part of the culture.
It still is, unfortunately.
No, but I mean I'm talking aboutnot talking about it.
Oh, don't talk about it.
SPEAKER_02 (17:23):
Yeah, and and and I think one good thing that Sherry
Martin brought to the table withthe FOP was the wellness
consultations.
Um, but we're culturallycompetent, right?
But you gotta you can't justsend them to like docker the
blocks.
No.
And you can't because they'rejust checking the blocks.
I know Tom Greenhall is workingwith the post to come up with a
standardization for mass.
(17:44):
But it again, it shouldn't whereit works, it shouldn't be
something that you need a personto understand how to do them.
You just can't go to a big boxand have them go to a therapist
that doesn't understand theculture.
You're just wasting time.
I think you have to have a Steveor a Fred or a Bill to have a
(18:05):
relationship with the agency.
The fire service does it verywell.
Um their PS support model isthey and I'm trained in it.
I represent a lot of firedepartments.
I like their model, which is I'mtrained in Mitchell.
I like the idea of going to thekitchen table and building a
rapport.
SPEAKER_01 (18:22):
What do people want?
They want the rapport.
They don't want, like, you know,that's the other part I
explained to some of my fellowtherapists that sometimes
struggle with this, and I'mbeing generous here.
Like, you gotta meet them wherethey're at.
You don't need to be sit, like,they don't want a clipboard,
they don't want you to writenotes every other day.
They want to make sure thatyou're just paying attention to
(18:44):
them and they just want to getit off their chest.
And they don't especially don'twant, oh my god, give me a
couple minutes.
But we've seen that, haven't we?
Oh, more than you know, man.
SPEAKER_02 (18:53):
Oh, don't the other thing, you know, and I'm gonna
probably get a lot of flack forthis, and I'm gonna go right to
the belly of the beast.
You know, we're we're puttingthousands and thousands of
dollars into CIT for thecommunity, which is great,
right?
SPEAKER_01 (19:04):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (19:05):
We have chiefs that spend more money on challenge
coins and coffee cups than theydo on mental health.
Right.
Or or you know, plaques fortheir office.
But here's the thing, the CITclinicians, okay, they shouldn't
be talking to your firstresponders.
They're not Steve, they're notthe riches, they're not the
Amy's, they're not the, youknow, the the that broke their
chops in.
And nothing against them, butthey've been a pain in my rear
(19:27):
end out there.
And because we had one thatinterceded into a police suit uh
officer suicide and she wastraumatized.
Now I gotta deal with her.
Okay.
So these chiefs that arethinking they're saving a buck.
The other thing is they work forthe administration, and you're
making a big mistake talkingbecause I'm not saying they're
(19:48):
gonna go back, but find somebodythat knows what they're doing,
do your homework.
SPEAKER_01 (19:53):
I mean, you you know the you know the rumor mill
stories.
Oh, yeah, right.
You know, tell you know,telegraph, telecop, telephone.
Firefighter?
I mean, that's what you gottado, and the rumor mill starts.
So if your clinician is withinthose walls, you're already
screwing yourself over.
SPEAKER_02 (20:07):
No, no, we're hired.
Like my private practice, we'rehired to the unions most part,
and we're departments to hireus.
But one thing our departmentsdo, we make it perfectly clear
that money will go through theunion.
And the I have some great chiefson the fire strivers because I
can't represent other policedepartments with any EBPA.
My fire chiefs are amazing.
I do have one pay in the rearend up on our shore that is
(20:29):
getting involved with the union,but we we try to put out his
noise.
Um and we've addressed it to theP uh PPFM en masse.
But again, they want control,but most of my chiefs are really
good about getting us thefunding and then giving it right
back to the union.
Uh a good example of that is twochiefs.
I I think uh Chief Buxton up inNashville does a great job, and
(20:51):
I think Chief Granary down in uhChelsea fire where they just got
the funding and said, listen,here to the union, go out and do
this.
If whatever you need, I'll getthe time off.
Um, and I think that's huge.
SPEAKER_01 (21:05):
But I'm gonna interrupt you because I want to
get back to the suicide stuffbecause I think it's important
to keep keep that going.
Having the time off isessential, having someone to
check on you is even better.
SPEAKER_02 (21:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (21:18):
And having continuous treatment.
Huge.
To me, like one of the thingsthat um I want to best admit
here, and you can correct me ifI'm wrong, because you're you're
a former police officer.
I have to have arguments withsome police officers.
Therapy does not work does notwork if you get four sessions
and you're suddenly good.
No.
(21:38):
Therapy is a long-term processbecause what I tell people is
that if it took you 20 years toget at this point, you're giving
me four weeks to fix this shit.
And I tell people that's justnot possible.
And you need to like, I'm notsaying be in therapy every week
for the rest of your life.
That's not necessarily what I'msaying.
But I think that you need to gowith like this was the this was
(21:58):
a symptomology for what you camefor about something deeper.
None of my first responders evercame in, and that's what we
worked on.
We worked on other stuff, thenwe got to that, or we started
with that, and then wediscovered 14 other things.
SPEAKER_02 (22:12):
I work with a therapist, Tracy Parsons, who's
one of the best in the business,yeah, every week.
I'm not afraid to say it.
Yeah.
And I have to doing the workthat I do, but I want to.
And she's a first respondertherapist.
And I I've got so much shit frommy past and so much shit that
I'm dealing with, and the stuffthat's in front.
I I think society's starting torealize that what we're asking
(22:34):
our first responders to do whenyou pull back and look into it,
how can we not have them havegood mental health?
You know, and that you know, youyou we we we bitch and moan,
hey, we want the officers to bewell, we want the you know,
posters like we would but thefirst time these officers ask
for help, well, I can't affordthem to go for 30 days.
(22:55):
Or I I don't that's drives meout of my mind.
If you here's the scenario ifyou break your leg, we give them
the time off.
If you say I have a mentalhealth injury, all of a sudden
it's a a a chore to get them thehelp.
Or we put them in a box andlook, oh, he went to see Dr.
Sumarov, he went to see thecrazy doc.
(23:17):
It's insane.
It drives me nuts.
SPEAKER_01 (23:18):
What drives me even more nuttier is that if you
break your leg, no one ever saysI want a third opinion.
SPEAKER_02 (23:25):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (23:26):
Mental health, like, yeah, you know, I'm I'm I really
need the time off for mentalhealth.
Are you sure you're just lookingfor time off to go do and then
there's this why why wouldsomeone make that like if they
had the balls to go see you andsay that they have this issue,
why are you denying what they'resaying?
Is there a manipulator here andthere?
Of course there is.
That's in every fucking place,though.
It's not, but why don't you takethem for their word instead of
(23:50):
saying, are you really okay?
Do you really need 30 days?
Oh, you know what?
I hear that alcohol dependence,once 72 hours go by, you're
physically like that that'sgone.
So you can come back to work inabout a week.
SPEAKER_02 (24:03):
If we want to stop, but we're never gonna stop
suicide, but we're gonna try.
Yeah.
We know in my profession withthe drug and alcohol, you know,
I'm gonna say 80% of my peoplethat come to me, they're
drinking because of a trauma.
Right.
Or they had a trauma as a kidand it's been as a big word,
acerpated by the stuff they seeon the I get the big words once
in a while.
Um I don't doubt it.
(24:24):
Because the stuff that they seeon the job, right?
And we're sold a bill of goods,the alcohol, because it's legal,
right?
Right.
And for a lot of people, alcoholhas helped them get over certain
problems.
But you're playing Russianroulette with this product.
Um, and if alcohol came to thetable now, it'd never be
legalized, right?
We know that.
And then what we do is we'resending them to dark in the box,
(24:46):
who's putting them on Adderall,and he they think they're doing
the right thing, they're puttingthem on the segments, but
they're not telling them youshouldn't be drinking with this.
And now when we get it, and andwe have to sift through what
they're on, and we say, listen,this is what works.
You're gonna be in some pe somepeople will be in recovery the
rest of their life, some people80% will just need awareness,
(25:07):
right?
And then you get the people thatwill get sober by themselves,
you know.
Then the ones I have to, youknow, we work with me.
I'm an alcoholic, I go tomeetings every day.
Um I'm you know, I'm in recoveryevery day.
But at least offer it, but ithas to be palatable.
That's the scenario.
SPEAKER_01 (25:26):
And that's the that's the issue.
I got consulted for uh from MassState Police to create like a
suicide warning checklist.
Yep.
And uh they use it, which isgreat, but I also know that it
was hush hush.
Sure.
And I'm not like I maybe I'mcalling out Mass State Police,
but that's not my goal here.
(25:46):
No, my goal is why is it hushhush?
When we have what what's thelikelihood like likelihood of
suicide, like 54% more likelyfor first responders?
I I that's the last side I said.
SPEAKER_02 (25:59):
Well, more enforcement, anyways.
SPEAKER_01 (26:00):
Law law enforcement, I think that it fires like in
the 50s, so probably it's got anissue.
And you you don't corrections.
But you're gonna go, is itreally an issue?
Let's oh, can you create a list?
Short, don't tell anyone.
Why are we like why is it stilla big secret in this field?
I don't understand.
SPEAKER_02 (26:20):
Why can't somebody come back to work?
I understand if somebody hasthought, you know, uh or tried,
we can get them to the point youbreak your leg, we can fix them
to come back.
I'd rather have an officer gosee a therapist than somebody
not go see a therapist to workwith.
Right.
Because I know that they'redealing with this shit, because
guess what?
More shit's gonna be piled on,more shit's gonna be piled on.
That's a healthy thing.
The feds are doing that.
(26:41):
I got a friend on the humantrafficking task force every so
many weeks she has to see it,you know, somebody.
SPEAKER_01 (26:46):
I know someone at the FBI, they're not my client,
but they exactly do that.
And I think that that's exactlywhat the point is.
SPEAKER_02 (26:54):
If we're gonna go after suicide, we have to have a
real conversation.
And the conversation that a lotof people don't want to talk
about, and it's a whole nothersubject.
The chiefs of police, the firedoes a better job.
We have to have them understandit's not about you.
Okay?
This, you know, again, I can goon.
SPEAKER_01 (27:11):
Well, forget about the town managers, but the town
managers are a whole nother.
SPEAKER_02 (27:16):
I don't want to get into politics, but I'm dealing
with that, with that one fighterpop, and I'm not sure with this,
this, this assistant chiefthat's just horrible.
Um, and again, if that isallowed to happen where they
keep trying to intercede in thepeer support and the wellness,
and they want to do it theirway, they're gonna have blood on
(27:38):
their hands.
And I'm the people are gonna I'mgonna get yelled at for saying
this, but it's the truth.
SPEAKER_01 (27:44):
But I think that that's this is what I'm saying.
Let's forget about silos andlet's break some veils here.
I'm done with this veil crap.
And the bottom line for me isthat I I've heard someone say to
me, and this is uh I had aprivate conversation, so I don't
want to put him on the spot.
The chief says to me, Well, Idon't want to give him his gun
back because he was suicidal.
(28:05):
I said, Okay, and when someoneon on site is slightly suicidal,
you'll do everything to reviewuh uh like get away from a pink
paper.
Yeah.
And if they have guns, you'renot gonna be picking on them.
So you treat the communitydifferently than you treat yours
because it's liability.
SPEAKER_02 (28:19):
There's a time and place, the reason why over the
first 40 hours we take thefirearm is issues.
But I guess that makes sense tome.
But why the constitutionalrights, number one, number two,
is they could be f they're notthey're just dented, they're not
broke.
SPEAKER_01 (28:34):
They said something and they're gonna pay the price,
it makes no sense to me.
But anyway, we're all but youknow, Joe, we're gonna come
back.
SPEAKER_02 (28:41):
This is great stuff, and I'm glad it's an honest
conversation.
SPEAKER_01 (28:44):
You know what one of the things before I go, and I
hope I I I my my conclusion isgonna be this with you.
I I don't have a next episode,so this is gonna be a
conversation.
Thank you for everything you do,number one.
But more importantly, it's beena while since I've been so
connected and animated withsomeone who has similar ideas.
And you know, I'm passionateabout this.
(29:05):
I hope you can see that, andmost people know, but you are
too, and that's why we gottawork.
Back at you, Bello.
It's an honor, my friend.
I'll I'll talk to you soonbecause we have business to do,
but you'll come back on apodcast.
Thanks, guys.
SPEAKER_00 (29:21):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(29:45):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
Welcome to Resilience Development and
Action with Steve Beast Home.
This is the podcast dedicated tofirst responder mental health,
helping police, higher, EMS,dispatchers, and paramedics
create better growthenvironments for themselves and
their teams.
Let's get started.
SPEAKER_01 (00:29):
You know you've heard me talk about this before.
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Well, hi everyone.
And this is not going to be anew numbered episode because I'm
just having a great time withJoe.
(01:13):
I want people to really uh gosee uh Tribezotis, all the stuff
that he's doing.
And we were having aconversation like 30 minutes is
not enough.
You'll have to come back becauseI'm just we're gonna blow this
one out too.
But one of the things we talkedabout, and I think it's
important to think about, is theretirement for our guys.
Yeah.
Because it's like I'm not sayingthat business doesn't have that,
(01:35):
and I'm not trying to put downany other businesses.
However, I think that the thestress of that role loss for
people is humongous.
The lack of support is sometimesa problem, too.
SPEAKER_02 (01:47):
Well, uh, you know, as you know and I know, and
again, my wheelhouse is drug andalcohol, suicide education, pair
support.
You you guys are traumatherapists, you guys do with the
grief.
When we come into this field,most of us, you know, when you
go to an academy, for somepeople it it's traumatic.
Um I came out of the military.
(02:08):
Um it becomes a you know, thisteam and then this family.
Um, I can honestly say a lot ofthe folks that joined the
military had didn't have a greatfamily upbringing, right?
That's why they join.
Right.
And then we become part of that.
Why do people join gangs?
It's their family, right?
And then you get the team aspectof it, which we love.
Right.
And let's not kid ourselves.
(02:28):
There's some of the researchthat me and my partner did is
that the job is addicting, it'ssexual.
And if you're not, if you'renot, if you can't understand
that you don't know what the jobis.
You've never been in a you'venever been, you for the
firefighters when they call outa work and fire, um, it's the
it's it's it's it's the biggestorgasm going.
(02:49):
For me, it's the shorts-firedcall.
Uh every night it's a different,it's the greatest show, greatest
show in town.
So now, when you're running atthat level, and you worked hard
for eight, I think the academiesare 34 weeks now, went through
with 16.
And you know, military policeschool back then, I think my it
was 14 weeks.
We did basic and AIT all atonce.
(03:12):
So when you look at the level oftraining that we got, and we
work our rear ends, you know,you're talking taking a test,
passing the audible boards.
You know, you work your rear endto get to that academy date,
right?
And then some academies arestronger than we know the Mass
Day Police.
They their standard is like theMarine Corps.
They do a phenomenal job.
Then you get the Boston PD,which I'm gonna go on the limb
(03:34):
and say it's the best academy inthe country.
Boston PD teaches their cops,unlike anyone else, how to be
that community interface.
Um, I wish everybody can goevery city cop can go to Boston.
They do that good of a job.
I I've always been a fan of thework that Boston does and the
state police, but differentroles.
(03:55):
Totally different roles.
SPEAKER_01 (03:56):
Different, but you know, you need to have different
because of the training, it'sspecialized for that.
Like a steady is way different.
SPEAKER_02 (04:03):
One one one trooper, one riot, they're out there with
no backup.
Right.
You know, it's it's just theydid and they do a great job.
SPEAKER_01 (04:08):
Being on the side of the road on when you're on 90 or
95 is a different ball game.
SPEAKER_02 (04:12):
Yeah, you're human trafficking.
Yeah, and and they do good intheir service units do a great
job.
Their wellness unit isphenomenal.
Um, they do great work, uh,they've come a long way.
They do a work couple.
But what I'm getting at, so wego all this stuff.
Now you come in the job and youbecome part of this cohesive
unit.
Right.
And you're sold it's family, andyou got the blue line, and
you're going to the wakes, andyou're going to the funerals,
(04:34):
and at any minute it's gone.
And when it's gone, I've beenthere, folks, it's gone.
And you you when you're there,you're a guest, when you're
gone, you're a pest.
And all of a sudden you're athome.
You know, the week before you'rechasing bad guys, and now in my
case, I was a stay-at-home dadusing duct tape to put my kid's
diaper on because I would mywife was doing all that.
(04:55):
Yeah.
And and now I'm isolating.
Nobody's calling you.
It's not that they don't want tocall you, they don't want to
catch what you have.
It's called retirement.
Right.
And you're isolating, and youknow how self-medicating with
alcohol was my thing.
And you're not talking tosomeone I was the hypocrite
because I was the stressed guy.
We called them back then.
And this is what happens.
(05:16):
You lose your identity becauseyou're souls, because it is, I
don't care.
People, oh, it's not youridentity, it's just a job.
That's bullshit.
Correct.
It it is bullshit.
And you have to, it's a grievingprocess.
And when you leave thatprofession, if you don't walk
talk to a Steve or a Hayden or aKathy or Jane or an Amy, you're
you're gonna get in trouble.
(05:36):
Or a pair.
And this is what we've seen whenwe start looking at our suicides
and we start looking at oursubstance abuse, our highest
population right now, the onesthat we can track, um, our
cardio issues, our stress arehuge, cancer issues.
We look at our retirees, and ourretirees, we're not talking the
guy that makes it to 65, we'retalking the Joe Razutis that are
(05:58):
45, you got to leave the job.
We're talking the officer thatgets hurt in the line of duty
with two years on the job.
We're talking these people.
Um now you get a physicalinjury, and now the
Commonwealth, we've got tochange the laws.
We're we're told we can onlymake so much money.
Right.
And and now we're we're we'repenalizing us for doing our
jobs.
So this whole thing going onthat we we we pushed away.
(06:20):
Right.
We pushed.
We didn't want to know it.
And thank God I get some goodmanagers, and Tom Truckle being
one.
Um, I wanted to do this, andJane wanted to talk about the
retirement stuff for years.
Hayden, I know Hayden's been onHayden's, I swear I got my help
was Hayden.
Um so finally, you know, um,like I said, Dr.
Otama in California, with firstrespond to wellness, he does a
(06:41):
30-day program.
So I said, we got to do betterhere in Mass.
So we just rolled out a programat NEBPA.
Um, we're gonna have anassociation of retirees, and
we're gonna have mentors.
Um, they're all peer-trained,number one, to the state's
standard, uh to the Mitchellmodel.
Um, some of them are gonna berecovered.
We we also rolled out a recoverycoach program just for fresh
(07:02):
responders.
And these are peers um that havebeen successful in retirement.
Yeah.
That do well business andwhatnot.
And we're gonna offer uh anassociation where once a quarter
they can come in have lunch andwe can network.
Um we're gonna offer individualcounseling through Jane and
myself, where um if they want totalk to somebody, they can talk
(07:23):
to LCSW or they can talk to meon the drug and alcohol through
the union.
And we're gonna also offer thatpeer mentoring.
So there's a couple of phases,and we just rolled it out, and
we're in the process of puttingit out with the NABPA.
And um, I think it's gonna work.
I think it's got legs becausewhen we when they leave the
union, we they they leave.
(07:44):
Now we're bringing them back inand say, listen, you you still
got a lot of value.
Right.
And they can help us raise, youknow, do awareness, um, and just
checking in.
Um, so I think it's gonna be agood thing it's a good thing,
and it's something we had to godo.
Um substance abuse goes hand tohand when you isolate.
(08:05):
And then people think they'regonna do the geo geographical
cure, they go to Florida.
Yeah, you know, and what do theydo down there?
They go back on the policedepartment.
Yeah, it's insane, right?
SPEAKER_01 (08:15):
You know, I know I met a guy last year when I was
in Florida, and he's like, Oh, Iused to be a cop up because I
told him I was from Mass, andlike, name me where you live.
I'm like, you're not gonna knowwhere that is.
He's like, try me.
And I told him.
And he goes, Oh, yeah, I was aHaveral cop for I'm like, oh.
I was like, that's why you lookold.
SPEAKER_02 (08:31):
Again, when I do I, you know who does, you know, the
firefighters, um, thecorrections offices, um it's
it's every it's everyone, thedispatchers.
Police have the hottest time.
Um fire service, they alwaysused to have a side hustle.
Right.
We used to hire them becausecops can't bang a nail.
Um and then what happened is uhthey all go out and become
(08:52):
paramedics, and now they'reworking their side hustle and
they're seeing trauma, trauma,trauma, trauma.
Right.
And then they wonder why they'rewe're having a problem in the
fire service.
Um corrections is the unsungheroes.
I love these guys, I could neverdo the job.
I crapped my parents the firsttime I went to Bridgewater
Correctional Facility.
Uh I don't know how they do it.
(09:13):
I'm glad they get a 20-yearretirement.
My boss, Tom Treco, as you know,was the director.
Uh I we don't do enough forthose poor people.
The county corrections are alittle bit better because they
go out in the community and theywork the road a little bit and
they get they do a lot with thecommunity.
And I like the work they'redoing on recovery, but even
them, when they leave there, umdebt networking seems to go
(09:36):
away.
SPEAKER_01 (09:37):
Well, you know, this is a couple of things that I
want to mention.
So, shout out to my group on Ihave my group at 7 p.m.
every Tuesday.
Yeah, absolutely.
I'd say half of them areretired, and half of them, like
when I told them it's gonna hityou with a ton of bricks, now
like after six months, they go,You aren't kidding.
And I'm like, Yeah, no kidding,because that's this, this is
your role for like I don't carewhat people say, it's not the
(09:58):
same.
If you were like a CEO, youcan't carry that elsewhere.
You don't stop being a cop, youdon't stop being a firefighter,
an EMT, or paramedic, or adispatcher for that matter.
And I think that that's thechange in role.
And one of the things that I'vefaced a lot, and I think this is
the other harder conversation weneed to have, is some of these
guys they get so down onthemselves, not only do they get
substance abuse, but whathappens with substance abuse?
(10:20):
Now you start thinking, what thefuck am I doing here?
Should I kill myself?
And suicide's a big problem,too.
Huge.
I think we couldn't talk aboutthe medical.
I mean, I've had guys like sixmonths out of retirement fucking
drop that.
SPEAKER_02 (10:31):
We just had that beautiful individual, the chief,
right next door.
I mean, retired a couple ofyears, and we see that all the
time.
SPEAKER_01 (10:39):
Because they're not ready, and that's because and
some of them like you know, likethey get to a point where they
don't feel good about themselvesand this and that.
There's I would love to talkabout that in the retirement
world, but I also think it'svery important to start breaking
that stigma on the level ofcorrection is another passion of
mine.
Yeah, I know you're same with mypartner Jane.
She's just I that's my that's mypeep peeps.
(10:59):
I think I've been to everyfacility in Massachusetts except
a couple.
Um, but I think that what thebottom line is, I I was the
therapist, just for the record.
Uh but uh all joking aside,let's go back to suicide.
I don't know where to startbecause I would say to you that
if we're not making it easythrough administration, through
(11:23):
even anything else, I see it allthe time.
You gotta you peer support mightbe enough.
It's maybe a shameful thing togo to on-site, and now they're
like, Well, what am I gonna do?
And because of the substance,you lack judgment, and what who
has the best drugs and orweapons available to them is
first responders.
SPEAKER_02 (11:44):
Yeah, and we we know the statistics from the VA.
Some will go back and forth.
My statistics, I usually useKaren Solman from Blue Help.
Linda Kakulis is doing greatwork.
I hope you're on their badge.
And but you know, I'm gonna sayactually, I was just honored to
ask to take part, and I can't,uh, in a um think tank with DOJ.
They invited me down toMaryland.
(12:05):
My wife's gonna be in France,and I I really I'm gonna I want
to go down there just to behonored to be part of a
conversation for the nationallaw enforcement.
For safe leo.
If you don't know Safe Leo, uhfire police, go online, get
involved with it.
It's for nothing.
100%.
Safe Leo program is is I've beeninvolved with the gecko.
Some of the resources are there.
(12:26):
It's for nothing.
DOJ puts it a great product out.
So I think, you know, let's talkabout suicide.
Let's talk about a we did a uhwell, you guys in the
psychobabble world called uhhypothesis.
And I love talking about thisbecause I don't, you know, we're
we're up at on site one day, andI work with two amazing civilian
(12:46):
therapists, and they come from adifferent world a little bit.
And and my I lost my bestfriend, I consider one of our
good solid friends, my boss.
There's police suicide.
I've lost my first suicide, itwas a kid I put in the National
Guard as a recruiter, and I wasa full-timer for the Guard MP
company, and my best friend wason Revere PD and responded to
(13:07):
our best friend that I put in,uh Brian Chate, God rest the
soul, he committed suicide.
So it was my first exposure.
I had to, and what bothered mewith that was I had to go out
and investigate that as one ofmy own.
My friend I was a 21,23-year-old kid working for the
guard.
And I remember, because I have alearning disability, I was more
upset with my boss red penning.
(13:27):
I I flipped brain, Brian tobrain, and he went up.
Well, no, my best friend justdied of a suicide, and you're
worried about a typo and afucking type, you know.
And this is what what stuck withme, right?
And I pushed that one down.
Um, so let's talk about suicide.
One thing we realized, me and mypartner, Jane, we were at
(13:47):
OnSight, I said, you know, let'sI come from a police background.
Let's do talk about a profile.
You guys call it hypothesis.
So when we think, you know, ifback in the day we had the three
B's, remember the three B's?
We can't politically correctwould be, you know, we'll we'll
call it, you know,relationships, financial, and
substance.
(14:07):
Okay.
But I remember the three B's.
Okay, the three B's.
Now, that was told to me, Kid,you know, as an old time, kid,
you know, be careful of these.
It happened to me in my career,right?
So now if we realized, and I wastalking when you're a
practitioner, what do you see?
Okay, we're on to something.
So we we started a relationshipgroup up at on site, and we told
Hayden about what our what ourwork was.
(14:29):
We're looking at this.
He said, Well, put it on youknow, paper.
I brought it to the and it wasthe FOP Wellness Conference
number two, and I ran it throughDr.
Coughlin, I ran it, you know,ran it by Schlosser, just the
best of best, Sherry.
Like, yeah, you know, how'd youcome up with that?
I work with this pretty you knowwild clinician seen this.
So then we started asking in thegroup, and we said, Hey, listen,
(14:52):
has anybody in this group, therelationship group, had these
things?
And then have you ever hadthoughts of suicide?
And out of the group out of uhthe six that would be there,
three, and then we'd have one ortwo that actually had a plan.
So now we know we're on tosomething.
So now we bring it to the fieldand like, hey, listen, even on
your end, you know, you'retalking to a first responder,
and if you see um that they'regambling a lot, you know, which
(15:14):
is gambling is uh Dave Nagel,great guy.
If you ever want to researchsomebody who state rep that does
great work on gambling, lost itall.
And he and he, you know,gambling's a new thing that
we're seeing.
So you'll see all these thingsif you have if you go outside
your marriage, like a lot of usunfortunately did do.
SPEAKER_01 (15:35):
And it's a stereotype for a reason.
SPEAKER_02 (15:37):
Then it happens, is then there's the the hamster
will.
Then you feel guilt, youself-medicate, right?
So you know where I'm going.
You start going to this thefinancial piece, then you're at
the point where there's no hope,and then you're sitting there
looking at the gun and the rope.
And so it's it didn't take arocket scientist from Revere to
figure that this is commonsense.
If we see these indicators,right, we need to say something
(16:02):
or step in.
Then what we figured, okay,let's start training people up
on QPR, you know, qualify,persuade, and re-r uh refer.
Simple three things.
If you get a chance to do thattraining, it's the best in the
world.
Just identify these people,you're not ratting them out.
Talk to them.
Hey, you're having a hard time,you're out of the bed, what's
going on?
Why don't you go talk tosomebody?
(16:24):
Well, I'm afraid to because nowwe've got the post in
Massachusetts.
We're gonna worry about the copslosing their licenses.
SPEAKER_01 (16:30):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (16:30):
You know, think oh we got Dr.
Bluestone, she she understandsit.
She's amazing, she absolutelyis.
And uh hopefully she'll be atthe meeting next week.
She gets it.
But I can't say you know, forthe rest of them, you know
what's going on.
So if we could see thoseindicators, we can start to
address them.
So we did because the voice ofthe union, a strong union, and
(16:50):
with Tom, uh, we're educatingall our presidents and reps.
If you have somebody go out oninternal affairs, you get
somebody going out injured.
Make contact with them, referthem to us.
Just talk to them.
If you see if you see somebodythat's drinking too much, don't
just think it's part of theculture.
(17:12):
Just say something.
SPEAKER_01 (17:15):
It used to be part of the culture.
It still is, unfortunately.
No, but I mean I'm talking aboutnot talking about it.
Oh, don't talk about it.
SPEAKER_02 (17:23):
Yeah, and and and I think one good thing that Sherry
Martin brought to the table withthe FOP was the wellness
consultations.
Um, but we're culturallycompetent, right?
But you gotta you can't justsend them to like docker the
blocks.
No.
And you can't because they'rejust checking the blocks.
I know Tom Greenhall is workingwith the post to come up with a
standardization for mass.
(17:44):
But it again, it shouldn't whereit works, it shouldn't be
something that you need a personto understand how to do them.
You just can't go to a big boxand have them go to a therapist
that doesn't understand theculture.
You're just wasting time.
I think you have to have a Steveor a Fred or a Bill to have a
(18:05):
relationship with the agency.
The fire service does it verywell.
Um their PS support model isthey and I'm trained in it.
I represent a lot of firedepartments.
I like their model, which is I'mtrained in Mitchell.
I like the idea of going to thekitchen table and building a
rapport.
SPEAKER_01 (18:22):
What do people want?
They want the rapport.
They don't want, like, you know,that's the other part I
explained to some of my fellowtherapists that sometimes
struggle with this, and I'mbeing generous here.
Like, you gotta meet them wherethey're at.
You don't need to be sit, like,they don't want a clipboard,
they don't want you to writenotes every other day.
They want to make sure thatyou're just paying attention to
(18:44):
them and they just want to getit off their chest.
And they don't especially don'twant, oh my god, give me a
couple minutes.
But we've seen that, haven't we?
Oh, more than you know, man.
SPEAKER_02 (18:53):
Oh, don't the other thing, you know, and I'm gonna
probably get a lot of flack forthis, and I'm gonna go right to
the belly of the beast.
You know, we're we're puttingthousands and thousands of
dollars into CIT for thecommunity, which is great,
right?
SPEAKER_01 (19:04):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (19:05):
We have chiefs that spend more money on challenge
coins and coffee cups than theydo on mental health.
Right.
Or or you know, plaques fortheir office.
But here's the thing, the CITclinicians, okay, they shouldn't
be talking to your firstresponders.
They're not Steve, they're notthe riches, they're not the
Amy's, they're not the, youknow, the the that broke their
chops in.
And nothing against them, butthey've been a pain in my rear
(19:27):
end out there.
And because we had one thatinterceded into a police suit uh
officer suicide and she wastraumatized.
Now I gotta deal with her.
Okay.
So these chiefs that arethinking they're saving a buck.
The other thing is they work forthe administration, and you're
making a big mistake talkingbecause I'm not saying they're
(19:48):
gonna go back, but find somebodythat knows what they're doing,
do your homework.
SPEAKER_01 (19:53):
I mean, you you know the you know the rumor mill
stories.
Oh, yeah, right.
You know, tell you know,telegraph, telecop, telephone.
Firefighter?
I mean, that's what you gottado, and the rumor mill starts.
So if your clinician is withinthose walls, you're already
screwing yourself over.
SPEAKER_02 (20:07):
No, no, we're hired.
Like my private practice, we'rehired to the unions most part,
and we're departments to hireus.
But one thing our departmentsdo, we make it perfectly clear
that money will go through theunion.
And the I have some great chiefson the fire strivers because I
can't represent other policedepartments with any EBPA.
My fire chiefs are amazing.
I do have one pay in the rearend up on our shore that is
(20:29):
getting involved with the union,but we we try to put out his
noise.
Um and we've addressed it to theP uh PPFM en masse.
But again, they want control,but most of my chiefs are really
good about getting us thefunding and then giving it right
back to the union.
Uh a good example of that is twochiefs.
I I think uh Chief Buxton up inNashville does a great job, and
(20:51):
I think Chief Granary down in uhChelsea fire where they just got
the funding and said, listen,here to the union, go out and do
this.
If whatever you need, I'll getthe time off.
Um, and I think that's huge.
SPEAKER_01 (21:05):
But I'm gonna interrupt you because I want to
get back to the suicide stuffbecause I think it's important
to keep keep that going.
Having the time off isessential, having someone to
check on you is even better.
SPEAKER_02 (21:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (21:18):
And having continuous treatment.
Huge.
To me, like one of the thingsthat um I want to best admit
here, and you can correct me ifI'm wrong, because you're you're
a former police officer.
I have to have arguments withsome police officers.
Therapy does not work does notwork if you get four sessions
and you're suddenly good.
No.
(21:38):
Therapy is a long-term processbecause what I tell people is
that if it took you 20 years toget at this point, you're giving
me four weeks to fix this shit.
And I tell people that's justnot possible.
And you need to like, I'm notsaying be in therapy every week
for the rest of your life.
That's not necessarily what I'msaying.
But I think that you need to gowith like this was the this was
(21:58):
a symptomology for what you camefor about something deeper.
None of my first responders evercame in, and that's what we
worked on.
We worked on other stuff, thenwe got to that, or we started
with that, and then wediscovered 14 other things.
SPEAKER_02 (22:12):
I work with a therapist, Tracy Parsons, who's
one of the best in the business,yeah, every week.
I'm not afraid to say it.
Yeah.
And I have to doing the workthat I do, but I want to.
And she's a first respondertherapist.
And I I've got so much shit frommy past and so much shit that
I'm dealing with, and the stuffthat's in front.
I I think society's starting torealize that what we're asking
(22:34):
our first responders to do whenyou pull back and look into it,
how can we not have them havegood mental health?
You know, and that you know, youyou we we we bitch and moan,
hey, we want the officers to bewell, we want the you know,
posters like we would but thefirst time these officers ask
for help, well, I can't affordthem to go for 30 days.
(22:55):
Or I I don't that's drives meout of my mind.
If you here's the scenario ifyou break your leg, we give them
the time off.
If you say I have a mentalhealth injury, all of a sudden
it's a a a chore to get them thehelp.
Or we put them in a box andlook, oh, he went to see Dr.
Sumarov, he went to see thecrazy doc.
(23:17):
It's insane.
It drives me nuts.
SPEAKER_01 (23:18):
What drives me even more nuttier is that if you
break your leg, no one ever saysI want a third opinion.
SPEAKER_02 (23:25):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (23:26):
Mental health, like, yeah, you know, I'm I'm I really
need the time off for mentalhealth.
Are you sure you're just lookingfor time off to go do and then
there's this why why wouldsomeone make that like if they
had the balls to go see you andsay that they have this issue,
why are you denying what they'resaying?
Is there a manipulator here andthere?
Of course there is.
That's in every fucking place,though.
It's not, but why don't you takethem for their word instead of
(23:50):
saying, are you really okay?
Do you really need 30 days?
Oh, you know what?
I hear that alcohol dependence,once 72 hours go by, you're
physically like that that'sgone.
So you can come back to work inabout a week.
SPEAKER_02 (24:03):
If we want to stop, but we're never gonna stop
suicide, but we're gonna try.
Yeah.
We know in my profession withthe drug and alcohol, you know,
I'm gonna say 80% of my peoplethat come to me, they're
drinking because of a trauma.
Right.
Or they had a trauma as a kidand it's been as a big word,
acerpated by the stuff they seeon the I get the big words once
in a while.
Um I don't doubt it.
(24:24):
Because the stuff that they seeon the job, right?
And we're sold a bill of goods,the alcohol, because it's legal,
right?
Right.
And for a lot of people, alcoholhas helped them get over certain
problems.
But you're playing Russianroulette with this product.
Um, and if alcohol came to thetable now, it'd never be
legalized, right?
We know that.
And then what we do is we'resending them to dark in the box,
(24:46):
who's putting them on Adderall,and he they think they're doing
the right thing, they're puttingthem on the segments, but
they're not telling them youshouldn't be drinking with this.
And now when we get it, and andwe have to sift through what
they're on, and we say, listen,this is what works.
You're gonna be in some pe somepeople will be in recovery the
rest of their life, some people80% will just need awareness,
(25:07):
right?
And then you get the people thatwill get sober by themselves,
you know.
Then the ones I have to, youknow, we work with me.
I'm an alcoholic, I go tomeetings every day.
Um I'm you know, I'm in recoveryevery day.
But at least offer it, but ithas to be palatable.
That's the scenario.
SPEAKER_01 (25:26):
And that's the that's the issue.
I got consulted for uh from MassState Police to create like a
suicide warning checklist.
Yep.
And uh they use it, which isgreat, but I also know that it
was hush hush.
Sure.
And I'm not like I maybe I'mcalling out Mass State Police,
but that's not my goal here.
(25:46):
No, my goal is why is it hushhush?
When we have what what's thelikelihood like likelihood of
suicide, like 54% more likelyfor first responders?
I I that's the last side I said.
SPEAKER_02 (25:59):
Well, more enforcement, anyways.
SPEAKER_01 (26:00):
Law law enforcement, I think that it fires like in
the 50s, so probably it's got anissue.
And you you don't corrections.
But you're gonna go, is itreally an issue?
Let's oh, can you create a list?
Short, don't tell anyone.
Why are we like why is it stilla big secret in this field?
I don't understand.
SPEAKER_02 (26:20):
Why can't somebody come back to work?
I understand if somebody hasthought, you know, uh or tried,
we can get them to the point youbreak your leg, we can fix them
to come back.
I'd rather have an officer gosee a therapist than somebody
not go see a therapist to workwith.
Right.
Because I know that they'redealing with this shit, because
guess what?
More shit's gonna be piled on,more shit's gonna be piled on.
That's a healthy thing.
The feds are doing that.
(26:41):
I got a friend on the humantrafficking task force every so
many weeks she has to see it,you know, somebody.
SPEAKER_01 (26:46):
I know someone at the FBI, they're not my client,
but they exactly do that.
And I think that that's exactlywhat the point is.
SPEAKER_02 (26:54):
If we're gonna go after suicide, we have to have a
real conversation.
And the conversation that a lotof people don't want to talk
about, and it's a whole nothersubject.
The chiefs of police, the firedoes a better job.
We have to have them understandit's not about you.
Okay?
This, you know, again, I can goon.
SPEAKER_01 (27:11):
Well, forget about the town managers, but the town
managers are a whole nother.
SPEAKER_02 (27:16):
I don't want to get into politics, but I'm dealing
with that, with that one fighterpop, and I'm not sure with this,
this, this assistant chiefthat's just horrible.
Um, and again, if that isallowed to happen where they
keep trying to intercede in thepeer support and the wellness,
and they want to do it theirway, they're gonna have blood on
(27:38):
their hands.
And I'm the people are gonna I'mgonna get yelled at for saying
this, but it's the truth.
SPEAKER_01 (27:44):
But I think that that's this is what I'm saying.
Let's forget about silos andlet's break some veils here.
I'm done with this veil crap.
And the bottom line for me isthat I I've heard someone say to
me, and this is uh I had aprivate conversation, so I don't
want to put him on the spot.
The chief says to me, Well, Idon't want to give him his gun
back because he was suicidal.
(28:05):
I said, Okay, and when someoneon on site is slightly suicidal,
you'll do everything to reviewuh uh like get away from a pink
paper.
Yeah.
And if they have guns, you'renot gonna be picking on them.
So you treat the communitydifferently than you treat yours
because it's liability.
SPEAKER_02 (28:19):
There's a time and place, the reason why over the
first 40 hours we take thefirearm is issues.
But I guess that makes sense tome.
But why the constitutionalrights, number one, number two,
is they could be f they're notthey're just dented, they're not
broke.
SPEAKER_01 (28:34):
They said something and they're gonna pay the price,
it makes no sense to me.
But anyway, we're all but youknow, Joe, we're gonna come
back.
SPEAKER_02 (28:41):
This is great stuff, and I'm glad it's an honest
conversation.
SPEAKER_01 (28:44):
You know what one of the things before I go, and I
hope I I I my my conclusion isgonna be this with you.
I I don't have a next episode,so this is gonna be a
conversation.
Thank you for everything you do,number one.
But more importantly, it's beena while since I've been so
connected and animated withsomeone who has similar ideas.
And you know, I'm passionateabout this.
(29:05):
I hope you can see that, andmost people know, but you are
too, and that's why we gottawork.
Back at you, Bello.
It's an honor, my friend.
I'll I'll talk to you soonbecause we have business to do,
but you'll come back on apodcast.
Thanks, guys.
SPEAKER_00 (29:21):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(29:45):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
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