December 19, 2025 • 23 mins
What if the most powerful tool on a crisis scene isn’t a badge or a diagnosis, but a practiced partnership? We continue our conversation with Dr. Sarah Abbott about co-response and unpack how pairing clinicians with police changes the outcome of calls involving mental health, substance use, and high-stress events—from domestic incidents with kids present to house fires and welfare checks where information is thin.
We trace the arc from a pioneering certificate at William James College to statewide intensives built on scenario-based, hands-on training. Instead of chasing labels, the curriculum teaches behavior reading, de-escalation under pressure, and language that preserves dignity while lowering risk. We dig into veterans’ mental health and firearm culture, highlighting lethal means safety training that helps clinicians speak credibly about storage, temporary transfer, and time-limited access without shaming or seizing. A vivid field story shows how clear communication with dispatch and officers can soften the room, protect everyone on scene, and build trust that lasts past one call.
The conversation widens to where co-response goes next. Through Abbott Solutions for Justice and the International Co-Responder Alliance, these practices are spreading across states and overseas, with growing momentum on college campuses that function like small cities. We explore why campus police and clinicians need shared playbooks, how programs like Johns Hopkins are leading, and what it takes to turn skepticism into skill—consistently, respectfully, and at scale. If you care about first responder wellness, community safety, and practical tools that work at 2 a.m., this is your roadmap for doing crisis response better.
Subscribe for more conversations on co-response, first responder mental health, and practical de-escalation. Share this episode with a colleague who needs these tools, and leave a quick review to help others find the show.
To reach Sarah, please visit her website at: https://www.abbottsolutionsforjustice.com
Sarah can also befound on LinkedIn at: https://www.linkedin.com/company/abbott-solutions-for-justice-llc/?viewAsMember=true
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:01):
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action
with Steve Beesholm.
This is the podcast dedicated tofirst responder mental health,
helping police, fire, EMS,dispatchers, and paramedics
create better growthenvironments for themselves and
their teams.
Let's get started.
SPEAKER_03 (00:29):
You know, you've heard me talk about this before.
Get free.ai.
Great for your note-taking, goodfor your transcript, good for
your goals, good for everythingthat you do on a HIPAA-compliant
nature.
And if you use code C50 atcheckout, you will get$50 off
your first month.
And also if you get a wholeyear, you will also get 10% off
(00:51):
the whole year.
But getfree.ai has freed me todo more things with my life,
including work on otherpassions.
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Getfree.ai with code Steve50 toget$50 off your first month.
Want to talk a little bit aboutWilliam James and what you do
there?
SPEAKER_01 (01:10):
Yeah, sure.
So uh William James College is asmall uh but mighty uh training
uh college for Massachusettsbased uh social workers and law
enforcement who are involved inco-response.
The college is uh well known forour forensic programming.
(01:32):
And when I was maybe five yearsago, I I started to realize that
I wanted to have a biggerimpact, you know, when when you
get older or further in yourcareer, you're like, what's my
impact and what's the legacy Iwant to leave uh behind?
And part of that was I I've beenin individually training people
(01:52):
for decades, individually, umone at a time to do this work,
or presenting one one-on-onetraining with people, and I
wanted to expand upon that.
And I believed that the field umdoesn't have a credentialing
tool for co-responders, itwasn't even a job that you could
apply for when I when we startedthis work, we you know, and now
(02:16):
it is an actual career path.
So I went to William Jamesbecause I looked at the material
that we have, and they had athey have a fantastic program
for training clinicians to workin the court system.
They have a fantastic umtraining program for uh uh
clinicians to work ineducational settings, schools,
(02:37):
and prisons, uh re-entry work,right?
And I was looking at thecontinuum and I was like,
where's the police?
And so I uh met with uhcolleagues there, Jay Toomey is
the Jay, wow, I haven't heardJay's name, Jay.
Yep, he's uh the uh the chair ofthe psych uh degree program, the
(03:00):
psyche program.
And uh he was there.
He also did some co-responseback in the day, part-time, and
in Framingham.
SPEAKER_03 (03:09):
Oh, I remember.
SPEAKER_01 (03:10):
Yeah, so I called him up and I said, Do you think
the school would be interestedin setting something up that is
um dedicated to law enforcementand to their co-response
partners?
And he said, I think probably weare.
And I had a couple of meetings.
I met with Nick Cavino, who'sthe president, who um is a
(03:30):
tremendous um force um andunderstands the systems
entirely.
His dad was an Everett policeofficer, uh, which is unusual uh
in itself, and also lent itselfto him understanding law
enforcement as a career, butalso as the son of a law
(03:52):
enforcement officer.
So he had a couple of differentum lenses to look at it through.
And he was thrilled to um hearabout the work I'd been doing
with co-responds and welcomed mein and gave me an opportunity to
develop a certificate program,which is a 10-graduate credit
training program.
We've graduated 58 uh lawenforcement and co-responders
(04:14):
statewide to date, and then umwith DMH funding, we have
launched a set of co-responseintensive trainings, which are
five-day, uh and we do thoseseveral times a year across the
state so that we cover um wecover our jurisdictions the
entire state.
So uh we we go regionally withthat, we do standalone
(04:36):
trainings, uh, we have webinarseries, which is monthly on all
things intersecting police andpeople in crisis, and um other
trainings that we do standalone.
Uh it's been fantastic.
We do a lot of technicalassistance for Commonwealth
police agencies and andorganizations that are launching
(04:57):
co-response.
The the model has has uh youknow it has blown up in
Massachusetts, especially overthe past five years.
I think as a result of theGeorge Floyd um murder, we uh
many police departmentsrecognized that you know they
needed to do somethingdifferent, even though they it
wasn't our departments that umwere responsible for that.
(05:20):
It was an opportunity, I think,to rethink the way in which we
respond to people.
And so, you know, it's been veryrewarding to see police officers
come in to our program a littlebit skeptical, a little bit not
sure, and to leave with um witha set of skills because it's
kind of non-traditional for anacademic setting, but we're very
(05:43):
skills-based.
SPEAKER_02 (05:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (05:45):
Um, we're very skills-based.
We do a lot of scenario-basedtraining, we do a lot of
experiential learning, we do alot of hands-on work uh with
real tools that they can use inthe field.
It's much less for me aboutdiagnostic work, which I always
found kind of not asinteresting.
Um, and and really the diagnosisof people in a crisis doesn't
(06:09):
play a significant role.
Uh, it's the behavior thatthat's uh you're dealing with
and and how to and how to use uhyour skills to to de-escalate,
no matter what the diagnosis.
So that's been the work atWilliam James.
Uh, we are very fortunate tohave an environment that
welcomes law enforcement.
(06:30):
I think in the beginning, lawenforcement was probably a bit
trepidatious about going on to auniversity, college, campus.
SPEAKER_03 (06:36):
I know for a fact that one of them was.
SPEAKER_01 (06:39):
And uh we are and things have changed, and um, you
know, we we welcome uh policebecause they have one of the
most difficult jobs.
We pile everything on them, uh,we expect it to be perfect every
single time, and it's humanbeings that are, you know, that
(06:59):
are kind of involved in this.
So uh that's really a little bitabout what we've been doing up
there.
SPEAKER_03 (07:05):
Well, if you ever need someone else to help you,
let me know.
Thank you.
I would love to be part of thatbecause I I I truly believe in
it, frankly.
Um and I'll put that in the shownotes with um other stuff,
obviously, but I'll put that inthe show notes just so people
know.
The other part that you forgot,I think, with William James, who
have done fantastic and havebeen the best trainings I've
(07:26):
been to for this particularpopulation is the veterans
population.
SPEAKER_01 (07:30):
Yeah, I mean, we um, you know, I think part of the
partnership, you know, in in insome ways law enforcement and
military culture are similar.
Yeah um, they're largelymale-dominated, they're largely
um, although police are expectedto be warriors and guardians,
um, and you know, vacillatebetween those two, which is
(07:51):
which can be tough for them.
But also, you know, the stigmaof mental health is strong
across both of thosedisciplines.
The uh William James College uhVeterans Affairs um staff really
came up with a fantastic lethalmeans training for clinicians
(08:13):
who want to or do work withmilitary veterans that or
military members that are notcomfortable with talking about
or managing firearms.
And as we know, firearms is alarge part of that culture, and
we want to be sure that we knowwhen we're clinicians, if
someone is struggling, that wecan have the right language to
(08:36):
talk to them about theirfirearms.
We're not comfortable with it.
We're not comfortable asking thequestion.
I think sometimes we don't wantto know the answer, um, but we
have to ask it because it's soobvious that that is a threat if
they are feeling suicide.
And we want to help them safelyand remain in control about how
(08:58):
to put that somewhere safely fora period of time.
It's not about handing youfirearms in or not being
licensed, it's about taking abreak from access to that lethal
means.
And clinicians come in and it'sin person and they get to handle
a firearm, you know, it'sdecommissioned or um whatever
(09:18):
the language is for that, butthey they get to handle it, they
get to see, um, so that theycould potentially talk through
with a veteran or military oranyone in crisis with a firearm
presence, um, how to dismantleit, how to safely give it to
someone else for safeguarding.
So it's very impactful training,and um again, you know, really
(09:40):
speaks to the innovation and thededication to serving those who
serve.
SPEAKER_03 (09:46):
And I think that that's why I want to mention it
because I love their trainingsand it's very good.
I also want to mention becauseyou mentioned about how police
and clinicians handle it.
Yeah, there was a call I went onfor the co-response where the
individual was military, yeah,suicidal, had guns in the house.
Yeah.
I started the interview there,he didn't put them out.
(10:06):
Yeah, but knowing full well thatthat would occur, yeah if I
said, you know, if we're gonnado a section, because he was
struggling, I want to save thedetails, we had to section him.
Yeah.
Like I said, we'll take it easy,we'll go outside.
Went outside.
He was actually chatting andlaughing.
I said, okay, call thepsychiatrist, got the section
12.
And the police officer who wasinformed that the guns are not
(10:28):
there, but they're in the house,but they're not there.
He came in in such a differentmatter because he knew how to
interact.
Then because you know, if yousay, Oh, yeah, the guy has 14,
we do know that in the system.
SPEAKER_02 (10:43):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (10:44):
So he told me, he's like, Thank you for saying that
to us with dispatch, becausethen it was so much easier.
I came in not stressed.
SPEAKER_02 (10:51):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (10:52):
Yeah, yeah.
And that's something I I want tomention that call because that's
why I want to mention theveterans.
I unfortunately was likeimprovising at best.
And so you learn on a crisistheme anyway.
SPEAKER_02 (11:04):
Yep.
SPEAKER_03 (11:05):
It's not a science.
And after that, I got a lot oflike more training and learned
about it and just how to handleit.
And it's not so intuitive.
I just got lucky in my opinion.
SPEAKER_01 (11:14):
Well, um, maybe, or you know, I I do think that um
we have to face that head-onwith people.
We're adults, you know, talkingabout um people in crisis who uh
for some reason have come to ourattention.
And I think that's one of theother things that I noticed the
most was we don't see that manypeople through the police who
(11:37):
call about themselves.
There tends to be someone elsecalling about them.
And that you don't have the fullpicture.
You and and it's so uh open toexploitation or abuse that
anyone can call any policedepartment and say, This person
said this, then you need to goand do a well-being check.
And we we go and do a well-beingcheck.
(11:59):
So I think being honest withpeople about why we're there, uh
what our concerns are, and um,you know, utilizing uh keeping
them in control, letting them bein charge of their firearms and
who gets them, and you know,rather than taking them away, I
think that's always the best wayto go.
Because as we know, you youknow, many people are repeat
(12:20):
people for the police.
And how you how you are treatedby police officer one time
really will set your attitudetowards police in the future.
So every call is an opportunityto um to present wealth for
police so that the next personthat comes isn't up against it.
Oh, that person lied, or theysaid that they weren't gonna
(12:42):
take my guns, and then they cameand take.
You know, you really do need tohave credibility in a policing,
especially in a in uh onecommunity where you see many of
the same people repeatedly.
SPEAKER_03 (12:54):
Right.
And I remember the other partthat you've done with JDP.
I keep on giving you a lot ofcredit because I really truly
believe that this is the one ofthe best programs I've ever been
part of.
SPEAKER_01 (13:04):
Same.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (13:05):
Um I remember you had with the I don't know if you
remember, but I do.
You and Paul said, we're gonnago to Paul Chasson.
Yeah.
We're gonna go talk, I shouldcall him whatever his title was,
but Chief Extraordinaire.
SPEAKER_01 (13:18):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (13:19):
I I'm sorry, Paul.
I don't remember your title.
I apologize.
SPEAKER_02 (13:22):
We might actually have finally retired for good
now.
SPEAKER_03 (13:26):
Um I remember you guys said it said, Steve, we
want you to come with us towe're gonna meet with the
Brazilian.
Oh, yes, absolutely.
And again, I don't want to getinto ice.
I did that's not my point here,but this is years ago.
Yeah, yeah.
And you you you did a lot toeducate that we're not here to
harm if you're going through DVor whatever.
(13:47):
And that was the otherinnovation of being a
co-response.
We were able to go to thesethings as look, we're
collaborative, we're notopposed.
That's right.
And I I remember you, and Iremember you telling me I have
to go there, and I went, like,what maybe it was uh the other
Sarah, but one of you told me,and you were No, I was there, it
was raining out.
SPEAKER_01 (14:05):
We were standing outside in the rain, waiting.
I remember that.
I remember you.
SPEAKER_03 (14:09):
But I think that that's the other part that you
brought in with uh theco-response model is being able
to reach out to the community ina non-threatening fashion.
Yep.
And I think Paul had not shownup in his uniform either.
SPEAKER_01 (14:20):
No, so no, and I I think on that note, it's really
it is a win for the community.
I remember going on calls in theearly days, and I'd show up, and
they would one of this personsaid, Who's this, your wife?
Because they didn't even knowwhat my role was.
And I was like, No, I'm not hiswife.
Um uh, but I am a social worker,and they were like, Why are you
(14:42):
here?
And I said, Well, the policehave a program.
And um, they were like, I reallydidn't think the police cared
that much to have a socialworker.
And I said, Well, they do.
And uh she said, Well, what didthey do wrong?
Did they did they mess somethingup to get this?
And I said, No, it wasn't apunishment.
This was actually a voluntary,uh, you know, Deputy Chief uh
(15:03):
Davis saw a need and filled it.
Um, and after that, I think shewas like, Oh, and I and the
program does universally get alot of support from the
community because to your pointit's expanded so much from what
it started as, right?
In the beginning, it was reallyabout diverting people from
arrest and getting them totreatment.
(15:26):
It today, uh, you know, I did atraining last week, and there
were 14 different um servicesthat a co-responder can provide.
Some of those include mediationwithin the community, whether
it's fences or immigration,others include death
notifications and um being onscene for tragic events and mass
(15:48):
casualty events.
And the utility of a mentalhealth professional on those
calls is invaluable.
And it's not obvious at first,you know, but when she you do
that and you have you find arole and you stick to it.
Oftentimes on calls, I would behelping manage the kids that
were present for a domestic.
Um, the police are managing thedomestics, nothing to do with
(16:11):
me, but there are these two kidsin their pajamas who watch this
and are now terrified and theydon't know where they're gonna
go.
And mum's gone to hospital anddad's going to jail.
So who's who's gonna do that?
I often thought that who wouldbe doing this if we weren't
here, and that's really whatpart of what kept me going.
SPEAKER_03 (16:29):
Well, I I remember those calls, the DV calls with
the kids and the victimssometimes.
SPEAKER_02 (16:34):
Yep.
SPEAKER_03 (16:35):
Um the other one that I remember is going to a
fire and the family watchingtheir house burn down, and I was
just sitting there, and if theyneeded to talk, they talked, and
if they didn't talk, they didn'ttalk.
But it was just amazing to havethat perspective.
And I think the other part that,you know, I think when we
started, we were trying to getaway from people who are doing
(16:56):
like small-time vandalism andtrespassing.
Yeah, so jail diversion wasactually the goal because we
didn't have the education thatwe have today.
SPEAKER_02 (17:04):
Correct.
SPEAKER_03 (17:04):
And we've evolved it so much.
Like, I mean, I consider myevolution of being a therapist
for first responders directlylink to this work.
SPEAKER_02 (17:12):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (17:13):
Uh yeah.
So I think that the the changeand all that, and I think that
what this brings up to me is youknow, I want to hear a little
bit about what you're doing anduh your work.
Um plug away everything you wantbecause I I went to the website.
Like I always tell people, Idon't lie.
I went to a website, great stuffon that website, but I'd like
you to talk about it.
SPEAKER_01 (17:33):
Sure.
So uh about five years ago, Ilaunched a small boutique
consulting uh business, AbbottSolutions for Justice.
And the mission of that is thesame mission that I've had
throughout my work, and that isto uh improve the outcomes of
people, all peoples who comeinto contact with the police
during a mental health crisis orsubstance use crisis, emotional
(17:56):
crisis.
It doesn't really matter whatthe etiology of that is, and I
set this company up as a vehicleto do this out of state and out
of country because um most of mywork formally has been focused
on Massachusetts, and I'verecently in the last three or
four years really wanted toexpand and grow the program
(18:21):
across the country.
I was fortunate enough to be afounding board member of the
International Co-ResponderAlliance, ICRA, which is our
kind of um the equivalent of ourtrade organization.
We um the mission of that is tospread uh co-response.
So as a board member on that,I've been very active in um
(18:43):
establishing uh the co-responderconferences, which are annually.
Uh, the next one is next June inDallas, and that you know always
has about a thousand twelvehundred people from across the
country.
So uh some of the work I've beendoing with Abbott Solutions as
the work I'm doing in Irelandhas been through that company.
(19:08):
I've uh we were in the Martha'sVineyard for a period of time
doing some discrete trainingdown there.
Um, but I really want to spreadto, I'm really interested in
doing work with university andcollege campuses around
co-response.
Some of the larger uh campusesacross the country and the
(19:29):
world, but particularly acrossthis country, are like mini
cities.
Um they may have uh thousands ofacres and hundreds of buildings,
and a police agency that is evenless trained than municipal
policing campus law enforcement.
SPEAKER_03 (19:48):
So you can go to go to Assumption and go see Steve.
He was right there with us.
SPEAKER_01 (19:54):
Yep, and uh you know, I I I think that's the
next evolution of this.
I 100% agree.
Um because college campuses area a microcosm for society.
There are a lot of people um indistress on college campuses
that um don't know where to goor don't have adequate um the
higher awareness of the mentalhealth of this group is
(20:15):
significant.
SPEAKER_03 (20:16):
Yeah.
And because of that, there's alot more demand.
SPEAKER_01 (20:18):
Yeah, it's easy to recognize.
And um and you know, these areyoung people in transition uh to
adulthood, right?
We remember it vaguely.
Um and and they need um uh youknow support living away from
home, with relationships, withgrades, with um with exams and
(20:39):
stress and and DV and drugs andall the other things that are on
college campuses.
So I'm really impressed with thework um of John Hopkins.
SPEAKER_03 (20:48):
John Hopkins, yeah, I love this work.
SPEAKER_01 (20:50):
Yeah, they have a fantastic co-response uh program
there on the college campus.
I think that's one of the waysin which I'd like to work more
in the future.
Um, but I'm open to uh smallone-day, two-day, five-day uh
training programs for lawenforcement and behavioral
health partners, uh, all the wayup to large systems.
(21:13):
I really enjoy puzzles.
I enjoy putting pieces togetherand figuring out problems.
So that's really a little bitmore about what I've been up to.
SPEAKER_03 (21:22):
Website address?
SPEAKER_01 (21:23):
Yep, www.abbot solutions for justice.com.
SPEAKER_03 (21:28):
Well, I'm gonna put that in the show notes anyway,
but I wanted you to say it.
But Sarah, um, it's a long timecoming.
So happy you came.
SPEAKER_02 (21:36):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_03 (21:37):
If you ever want to come back, you let me know.
Thank you.
Uh you'll always have open door.
SPEAKER_01 (21:42):
Appreciate that, Steve.
SPEAKER_03 (21:44):
Um and when I go to Limerick, uh, yes, Limerick.
Limerick.
Sorry, I gotta get the Irishafter me.
Um I will absolutely let youknow.
So if you can tell me who totalk to, I'll just go say hi.
SPEAKER_01 (21:55):
I'll connect you.
They're they love it when peoplewill come and visit, and they'll
open the doors uh for you andshow you around and show show
you the co-response program isactive there.
SPEAKER_03 (22:06):
And that's you know, such a de near and near thing in
my heart.
I know.
Um I can't thank you enough.
SPEAKER_01 (22:13):
Thank you.
Yeah, thank you to yourlisteners for being interested
in this.
Thanks for the invitation.
And um, I'll come back when Ihave another announcement to
make, which may be in thefuture.
SPEAKER_03 (22:24):
You have open, like you like the studio, so we're
gonna do the studio ten minutesaway.
So um thank you for listening toepisode 234, part A and B or one
and two.
I'll see you for episode 235.
Thank you, guys.
SPEAKER_00 (22:36):
Thank you.
Thanks, everyone.
Please like, subscribe, andfollow this podcast on your
favorite platform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
(22:58):
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action
with Steve Beesholm.
This is the podcast dedicated tofirst responder mental health,
helping police, fire, EMS,dispatchers, and paramedics
create better growthenvironments for themselves and
their teams.
Let's get started.
SPEAKER_03 (00:29):
You know, you've heard me talk about this before.
Get free.ai.
Great for your note-taking, goodfor your transcript, good for
your goals, good for everythingthat you do on a HIPAA-compliant
nature.
And if you use code C50 atcheckout, you will get$50 off
your first month.
And also if you get a wholeyear, you will also get 10% off
(00:51):
the whole year.
But getfree.ai has freed me todo more things with my life,
including work on otherpassions.
So get free to do your notes,get freed from doing your goals.
Getfree.ai with code Steve50 toget$50 off your first month.
Want to talk a little bit aboutWilliam James and what you do
there?
SPEAKER_01 (01:10):
Yeah, sure.
So uh William James College is asmall uh but mighty uh training
uh college for Massachusettsbased uh social workers and law
enforcement who are involved inco-response.
The college is uh well known forour forensic programming.
(01:32):
And when I was maybe five yearsago, I I started to realize that
I wanted to have a biggerimpact, you know, when when you
get older or further in yourcareer, you're like, what's my
impact and what's the legacy Iwant to leave uh behind?
And part of that was I I've beenin individually training people
(01:52):
for decades, individually, umone at a time to do this work,
or presenting one one-on-onetraining with people, and I
wanted to expand upon that.
And I believed that the field umdoesn't have a credentialing
tool for co-responders, itwasn't even a job that you could
apply for when I when we startedthis work, we you know, and now
(02:16):
it is an actual career path.
So I went to William Jamesbecause I looked at the material
that we have, and they had athey have a fantastic program
for training clinicians to workin the court system.
They have a fantastic umtraining program for uh uh
clinicians to work ineducational settings, schools,
(02:37):
and prisons, uh re-entry work,right?
And I was looking at thecontinuum and I was like,
where's the police?
And so I uh met with uhcolleagues there, Jay Toomey is
the Jay, wow, I haven't heardJay's name, Jay.
Yep, he's uh the uh the chair ofthe psych uh degree program, the
(03:00):
psyche program.
And uh he was there.
He also did some co-responseback in the day, part-time, and
in Framingham.
SPEAKER_03 (03:09):
Oh, I remember.
SPEAKER_01 (03:10):
Yeah, so I called him up and I said, Do you think
the school would be interestedin setting something up that is
um dedicated to law enforcementand to their co-response
partners?
And he said, I think probably weare.
And I had a couple of meetings.
I met with Nick Cavino, who'sthe president, who um is a
(03:30):
tremendous um force um andunderstands the systems
entirely.
His dad was an Everett policeofficer, uh, which is unusual uh
in itself, and also lent itselfto him understanding law
enforcement as a career, butalso as the son of a law
(03:52):
enforcement officer.
So he had a couple of differentum lenses to look at it through.
And he was thrilled to um hearabout the work I'd been doing
with co-responds and welcomed mein and gave me an opportunity to
develop a certificate program,which is a 10-graduate credit
training program.
We've graduated 58 uh lawenforcement and co-responders
(04:14):
statewide to date, and then umwith DMH funding, we have
launched a set of co-responseintensive trainings, which are
five-day, uh and we do thoseseveral times a year across the
state so that we cover um wecover our jurisdictions the
entire state.
So uh we we go regionally withthat, we do standalone
(04:36):
trainings, uh, we have webinarseries, which is monthly on all
things intersecting police andpeople in crisis, and um other
trainings that we do standalone.
Uh it's been fantastic.
We do a lot of technicalassistance for Commonwealth
police agencies and andorganizations that are launching
(04:57):
co-response.
The the model has has uh youknow it has blown up in
Massachusetts, especially overthe past five years.
I think as a result of theGeorge Floyd um murder, we uh
many police departmentsrecognized that you know they
needed to do somethingdifferent, even though they it
wasn't our departments that umwere responsible for that.
(05:20):
It was an opportunity, I think,to rethink the way in which we
respond to people.
And so, you know, it's been veryrewarding to see police officers
come in to our program a littlebit skeptical, a little bit not
sure, and to leave with um witha set of skills because it's
kind of non-traditional for anacademic setting, but we're very
(05:43):
skills-based.
SPEAKER_02 (05:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (05:45):
Um, we're very skills-based.
We do a lot of scenario-basedtraining, we do a lot of
experiential learning, we do alot of hands-on work uh with
real tools that they can use inthe field.
It's much less for me aboutdiagnostic work, which I always
found kind of not asinteresting.
Um, and and really the diagnosisof people in a crisis doesn't
(06:09):
play a significant role.
Uh, it's the behavior thatthat's uh you're dealing with
and and how to and how to use uhyour skills to to de-escalate,
no matter what the diagnosis.
So that's been the work atWilliam James.
Uh, we are very fortunate tohave an environment that
welcomes law enforcement.
(06:30):
I think in the beginning, lawenforcement was probably a bit
trepidatious about going on to auniversity, college, campus.
SPEAKER_03 (06:36):
I know for a fact that one of them was.
SPEAKER_01 (06:39):
And uh we are and things have changed, and um, you
know, we we welcome uh policebecause they have one of the
most difficult jobs.
We pile everything on them, uh,we expect it to be perfect every
single time, and it's humanbeings that are, you know, that
(06:59):
are kind of involved in this.
So uh that's really a little bitabout what we've been doing up
there.
SPEAKER_03 (07:05):
Well, if you ever need someone else to help you,
let me know.
Thank you.
I would love to be part of thatbecause I I I truly believe in
it, frankly.
Um and I'll put that in the shownotes with um other stuff,
obviously, but I'll put that inthe show notes just so people
know.
The other part that you forgot,I think, with William James, who
have done fantastic and havebeen the best trainings I've
(07:26):
been to for this particularpopulation is the veterans
population.
SPEAKER_01 (07:30):
Yeah, I mean, we um, you know, I think part of the
partnership, you know, in in insome ways law enforcement and
military culture are similar.
Yeah um, they're largelymale-dominated, they're largely
um, although police are expectedto be warriors and guardians,
um, and you know, vacillatebetween those two, which is
(07:51):
which can be tough for them.
But also, you know, the stigmaof mental health is strong
across both of thosedisciplines.
The uh William James College uhVeterans Affairs um staff really
came up with a fantastic lethalmeans training for clinicians
(08:13):
who want to or do work withmilitary veterans that or
military members that are notcomfortable with talking about
or managing firearms.
And as we know, firearms is alarge part of that culture, and
we want to be sure that we knowwhen we're clinicians, if
someone is struggling, that wecan have the right language to
(08:36):
talk to them about theirfirearms.
We're not comfortable with it.
We're not comfortable asking thequestion.
I think sometimes we don't wantto know the answer, um, but we
have to ask it because it's soobvious that that is a threat if
they are feeling suicide.
And we want to help them safelyand remain in control about how
(08:58):
to put that somewhere safely fora period of time.
It's not about handing youfirearms in or not being
licensed, it's about taking abreak from access to that lethal
means.
And clinicians come in and it'sin person and they get to handle
a firearm, you know, it'sdecommissioned or um whatever
(09:18):
the language is for that, butthey they get to handle it, they
get to see, um, so that theycould potentially talk through
with a veteran or military oranyone in crisis with a firearm
presence, um, how to dismantleit, how to safely give it to
someone else for safeguarding.
So it's very impactful training,and um again, you know, really
(09:40):
speaks to the innovation and thededication to serving those who
serve.
SPEAKER_03 (09:46):
And I think that that's why I want to mention it
because I love their trainingsand it's very good.
I also want to mention becauseyou mentioned about how police
and clinicians handle it.
Yeah, there was a call I went onfor the co-response where the
individual was military, yeah,suicidal, had guns in the house.
Yeah.
I started the interview there,he didn't put them out.
(10:06):
Yeah, but knowing full well thatthat would occur, yeah if I
said, you know, if we're gonnado a section, because he was
struggling, I want to save thedetails, we had to section him.
Yeah.
Like I said, we'll take it easy,we'll go outside.
Went outside.
He was actually chatting andlaughing.
I said, okay, call thepsychiatrist, got the section
12.
And the police officer who wasinformed that the guns are not
(10:28):
there, but they're in the house,but they're not there.
He came in in such a differentmatter because he knew how to
interact.
Then because you know, if yousay, Oh, yeah, the guy has 14,
we do know that in the system.
SPEAKER_02 (10:43):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (10:44):
So he told me, he's like, Thank you for saying that
to us with dispatch, becausethen it was so much easier.
I came in not stressed.
SPEAKER_02 (10:51):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (10:52):
Yeah, yeah.
And that's something I I want tomention that call because that's
why I want to mention theveterans.
I unfortunately was likeimprovising at best.
And so you learn on a crisistheme anyway.
SPEAKER_02 (11:04):
Yep.
SPEAKER_03 (11:05):
It's not a science.
And after that, I got a lot oflike more training and learned
about it and just how to handleit.
And it's not so intuitive.
I just got lucky in my opinion.
SPEAKER_01 (11:14):
Well, um, maybe, or you know, I I do think that um
we have to face that head-onwith people.
We're adults, you know, talkingabout um people in crisis who uh
for some reason have come to ourattention.
And I think that's one of theother things that I noticed the
most was we don't see that manypeople through the police who
(11:37):
call about themselves.
There tends to be someone elsecalling about them.
And that you don't have the fullpicture.
You and and it's so uh open toexploitation or abuse that
anyone can call any policedepartment and say, This person
said this, then you need to goand do a well-being check.
And we we go and do a well-beingcheck.
(11:59):
So I think being honest withpeople about why we're there, uh
what our concerns are, and um,you know, utilizing uh keeping
them in control, letting them bein charge of their firearms and
who gets them, and you know,rather than taking them away, I
think that's always the best wayto go.
Because as we know, you youknow, many people are repeat
(12:20):
people for the police.
And how you how you are treatedby police officer one time
really will set your attitudetowards police in the future.
So every call is an opportunityto um to present wealth for
police so that the next personthat comes isn't up against it.
Oh, that person lied, or theysaid that they weren't gonna
(12:42):
take my guns, and then they cameand take.
You know, you really do need tohave credibility in a policing,
especially in a in uh onecommunity where you see many of
the same people repeatedly.
SPEAKER_03 (12:54):
Right.
And I remember the other partthat you've done with JDP.
I keep on giving you a lot ofcredit because I really truly
believe that this is the one ofthe best programs I've ever been
part of.
SPEAKER_01 (13:04):
Same.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (13:05):
Um I remember you had with the I don't know if you
remember, but I do.
You and Paul said, we're gonnago to Paul Chasson.
Yeah.
We're gonna go talk, I shouldcall him whatever his title was,
but Chief Extraordinaire.
SPEAKER_01 (13:18):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (13:19):
I I'm sorry, Paul.
I don't remember your title.
I apologize.
SPEAKER_02 (13:22):
We might actually have finally retired for good
now.
SPEAKER_03 (13:26):
Um I remember you guys said it said, Steve, we
want you to come with us towe're gonna meet with the
Brazilian.
Oh, yes, absolutely.
And again, I don't want to getinto ice.
I did that's not my point here,but this is years ago.
Yeah, yeah.
And you you you did a lot toeducate that we're not here to
harm if you're going through DVor whatever.
(13:47):
And that was the otherinnovation of being a
co-response.
We were able to go to thesethings as look, we're
collaborative, we're notopposed.
That's right.
And I I remember you, and Iremember you telling me I have
to go there, and I went, like,what maybe it was uh the other
Sarah, but one of you told me,and you were No, I was there, it
was raining out.
SPEAKER_01 (14:05):
We were standing outside in the rain, waiting.
I remember that.
I remember you.
SPEAKER_03 (14:09):
But I think that that's the other part that you
brought in with uh theco-response model is being able
to reach out to the community ina non-threatening fashion.
Yep.
And I think Paul had not shownup in his uniform either.
SPEAKER_01 (14:20):
No, so no, and I I think on that note, it's really
it is a win for the community.
I remember going on calls in theearly days, and I'd show up, and
they would one of this personsaid, Who's this, your wife?
Because they didn't even knowwhat my role was.
And I was like, No, I'm not hiswife.
Um uh, but I am a social worker,and they were like, Why are you
(14:42):
here?
And I said, Well, the policehave a program.
And um, they were like, I reallydidn't think the police cared
that much to have a socialworker.
And I said, Well, they do.
And uh she said, Well, what didthey do wrong?
Did they did they mess somethingup to get this?
And I said, No, it wasn't apunishment.
This was actually a voluntary,uh, you know, Deputy Chief uh
(15:03):
Davis saw a need and filled it.
Um, and after that, I think shewas like, Oh, and I and the
program does universally get alot of support from the
community because to your pointit's expanded so much from what
it started as, right?
In the beginning, it was reallyabout diverting people from
arrest and getting them totreatment.
(15:26):
It today, uh, you know, I did atraining last week, and there
were 14 different um servicesthat a co-responder can provide.
Some of those include mediationwithin the community, whether
it's fences or immigration,others include death
notifications and um being onscene for tragic events and mass
(15:48):
casualty events.
And the utility of a mentalhealth professional on those
calls is invaluable.
And it's not obvious at first,you know, but when she you do
that and you have you find arole and you stick to it.
Oftentimes on calls, I would behelping manage the kids that
were present for a domestic.
Um, the police are managing thedomestics, nothing to do with
(16:11):
me, but there are these two kidsin their pajamas who watch this
and are now terrified and theydon't know where they're gonna
go.
And mum's gone to hospital anddad's going to jail.
So who's who's gonna do that?
I often thought that who wouldbe doing this if we weren't
here, and that's really whatpart of what kept me going.
SPEAKER_03 (16:29):
Well, I I remember those calls, the DV calls with
the kids and the victimssometimes.
SPEAKER_02 (16:34):
Yep.
SPEAKER_03 (16:35):
Um the other one that I remember is going to a
fire and the family watchingtheir house burn down, and I was
just sitting there, and if theyneeded to talk, they talked, and
if they didn't talk, they didn'ttalk.
But it was just amazing to havethat perspective.
And I think the other part that,you know, I think when we
started, we were trying to getaway from people who are doing
(16:56):
like small-time vandalism andtrespassing.
Yeah, so jail diversion wasactually the goal because we
didn't have the education thatwe have today.
SPEAKER_02 (17:04):
Correct.
SPEAKER_03 (17:04):
And we've evolved it so much.
Like, I mean, I consider myevolution of being a therapist
for first responders directlylink to this work.
SPEAKER_02 (17:12):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (17:13):
Uh yeah.
So I think that the the changeand all that, and I think that
what this brings up to me is youknow, I want to hear a little
bit about what you're doing anduh your work.
Um plug away everything you wantbecause I I went to the website.
Like I always tell people, Idon't lie.
I went to a website, great stuffon that website, but I'd like
you to talk about it.
SPEAKER_01 (17:33):
Sure.
So uh about five years ago, Ilaunched a small boutique
consulting uh business, AbbottSolutions for Justice.
And the mission of that is thesame mission that I've had
throughout my work, and that isto uh improve the outcomes of
people, all peoples who comeinto contact with the police
during a mental health crisis orsubstance use crisis, emotional
(17:56):
crisis.
It doesn't really matter whatthe etiology of that is, and I
set this company up as a vehicleto do this out of state and out
of country because um most of mywork formally has been focused
on Massachusetts, and I'verecently in the last three or
four years really wanted toexpand and grow the program
(18:21):
across the country.
I was fortunate enough to be afounding board member of the
International Co-ResponderAlliance, ICRA, which is our
kind of um the equivalent of ourtrade organization.
We um the mission of that is tospread uh co-response.
So as a board member on that,I've been very active in um
(18:43):
establishing uh the co-responderconferences, which are annually.
Uh, the next one is next June inDallas, and that you know always
has about a thousand twelvehundred people from across the
country.
So uh some of the work I've beendoing with Abbott Solutions as
the work I'm doing in Irelandhas been through that company.
(19:08):
I've uh we were in the Martha'sVineyard for a period of time
doing some discrete trainingdown there.
Um, but I really want to spreadto, I'm really interested in
doing work with university andcollege campuses around
co-response.
Some of the larger uh campusesacross the country and the
(19:29):
world, but particularly acrossthis country, are like mini
cities.
Um they may have uh thousands ofacres and hundreds of buildings,
and a police agency that is evenless trained than municipal
policing campus law enforcement.
SPEAKER_03 (19:48):
So you can go to go to Assumption and go see Steve.
He was right there with us.
SPEAKER_01 (19:54):
Yep, and uh you know, I I I think that's the
next evolution of this.
I 100% agree.
Um because college campuses area a microcosm for society.
There are a lot of people um indistress on college campuses
that um don't know where to goor don't have adequate um the
higher awareness of the mentalhealth of this group is
(20:15):
significant.
SPEAKER_03 (20:16):
Yeah.
And because of that, there's alot more demand.
SPEAKER_01 (20:18):
Yeah, it's easy to recognize.
And um and you know, these areyoung people in transition uh to
adulthood, right?
We remember it vaguely.
Um and and they need um uh youknow support living away from
home, with relationships, withgrades, with um with exams and
(20:39):
stress and and DV and drugs andall the other things that are on
college campuses.
So I'm really impressed with thework um of John Hopkins.
SPEAKER_03 (20:48):
John Hopkins, yeah, I love this work.
SPEAKER_01 (20:50):
Yeah, they have a fantastic co-response uh program
there on the college campus.
I think that's one of the waysin which I'd like to work more
in the future.
Um, but I'm open to uh smallone-day, two-day, five-day uh
training programs for lawenforcement and behavioral
health partners, uh, all the wayup to large systems.
(21:13):
I really enjoy puzzles.
I enjoy putting pieces togetherand figuring out problems.
So that's really a little bitmore about what I've been up to.
SPEAKER_03 (21:22):
Website address?
SPEAKER_01 (21:23):
Yep, www.abbot solutions for justice.com.
SPEAKER_03 (21:28):
Well, I'm gonna put that in the show notes anyway,
but I wanted you to say it.
But Sarah, um, it's a long timecoming.
So happy you came.
SPEAKER_02 (21:36):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_03 (21:37):
If you ever want to come back, you let me know.
Thank you.
Uh you'll always have open door.
SPEAKER_01 (21:42):
Appreciate that, Steve.
SPEAKER_03 (21:44):
Um and when I go to Limerick, uh, yes, Limerick.
Limerick.
Sorry, I gotta get the Irishafter me.
Um I will absolutely let youknow.
So if you can tell me who totalk to, I'll just go say hi.
SPEAKER_01 (21:55):
I'll connect you.
They're they love it when peoplewill come and visit, and they'll
open the doors uh for you andshow you around and show show
you the co-response program isactive there.
SPEAKER_03 (22:06):
And that's you know, such a de near and near thing in
my heart.
I know.
Um I can't thank you enough.
SPEAKER_01 (22:13):
Thank you.
Yeah, thank you to yourlisteners for being interested
in this.
Thanks for the invitation.
And um, I'll come back when Ihave another announcement to
make, which may be in thefuture.
SPEAKER_03 (22:24):
You have open, like you like the studio, so we're
gonna do the studio ten minutesaway.
So um thank you for listening toepisode 234, part A and B or one
and two.
I'll see you for episode 235.
Thank you, guys.
SPEAKER_00 (22:36):
Thank you.
Thanks, everyone.
Please like, subscribe, andfollow this podcast on your
favorite platform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
(22:58):
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
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