October 9, 2024 • 52 mins
What if you could transform your life by simply changing the way you breathe? Join us for a compelling conversation with Abbie Westgate, a former UK police sergeant who left behind the high-stress world of law enforcement to embrace the healing power of somatic breathwork. Abbie courageously shares her journey through stress, burnout, and trauma, leading to a serious illness that became the catalyst for her new path. Discover how Abbie's experiences as a first responder have uniquely equipped her to understand the profound connection between mind, body, and spirit, ultimately shaping her business, Healing Blue Hearts.
Explore the transformative potential of somatic breathwork as Abbie explains its ability to reset the nervous system and offer stress relief. We address common skepticism towards somatic practices and delve into the importance of personal experience in forming opinions. Abbie provides insight into how breathwork can help individuals experience a full emotional cycle and achieve clarity of thought, offering benefits like stress release and emotional resilience. This episode emphasizes the need for integrating both cognitive and somatic methods in healing to foster a harmonious mind-body connection.
We also highlight Abbie's passion for creating safe spaces where first responders can express and process their emotions without judgment. Through her work, Abbie encourages personal responsibility and self-empowerment in one's healing journey. As we wrap up, a heartfelt appreciation is shared for the supportive community surrounding somatic breathwork, and Abbie's dedication to making a positive impact in the lives of others, especially those on the front lines.
Go to this website to schedule your breathwork with her here: https://healing-blue-hearts.my.canva.site/
Her Instagram is: https://www.instagram.com/healing_blue_hearts
PEeer Levine's website is: https://www.somaticexperiencing.com/about-peter
Freed AI converts conversations into SOAP note.Use code Steve50 for $50 off the 1st month!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hi and welcome to Finding your Way Through Therapy
.
A proud member of thePsychCraft Network, the goal of
this podcast is to demystifytherapy, what can happen in
therapy and the wide array ofconversations you can have in
and about therapy Throughpersonal experiences.
Guests will talk about therapy,their experiences with it and
(00:24):
how psychology and therapy arepresent in many places in their
lives, with lots of authenticityand a touch of humor.
Here is your host, steve Bisson.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Merci de continuer à écouter.
Thank you for continuing tolisten.
And hi, and welcome to episode173 of finding your way through
therapy.
If you haven't listened toepisode 172 yet, go back and
listen.
There was the mental men.
Again, we had a lot of goodconversation in regards to
mentorship, among other things,and, you know, go listen to it.
We talked about the old ways oftraining.
(00:58):
We've came up with a couple ofideas that for the future.
I don't know if they're goingto come out or not, but
certainly we had that.
But episode 173 will be withAbby Westgate.
Abby Westgate is a former UKpolice sergeant.
She served for about six years.
She was passionate about herwork but fell seriously ill a
year from stress, burnout andtrauma in both her professional
(01:20):
and her personal life.
On her road to recovery shediscovered a different approach
to healing and was working onbody semantics as well as the
nervous system.
This became her new passion.
Two years later she walked awayfrom her job and became a
somatic breathwork practitionerand she runs her own business.
She's going to surely talkabout that and it's called
Healing Blue Hearts.
(01:40):
She has a lot of things to sayabout her experience in the UK
as a police sergeant.
So here's the interview.
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(04:00):
Well, hi and welcome to episode173.
This is an exciting episode forme because Abby Westgate or
Abby Westgate just want to makesure I pronounce it properly
Abby.
Abby is a former United Kingdompolice sergeant and has shifted
her world into something moreinteresting to me, not because
(04:23):
it's not interesting to talkabout first responder stuff, but
really somatic breath work, andshe wants to share all this
with us plus more, I'm sure.
And yes, for those of you wholisten to this regularly, yeah,
breath work is hard.
It's a TH and it's not my firstlanguage, so please give me a
break.
So, abby Westgate, welcome toFinding your Way Through Therapy
(04:44):
, hi Steve.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
Thank you for having me.
Please give me a break.
So, abby Westgate, welcome toFinding your.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Way Through Therapy.
Hi Steve, thank you for havingme today.
Well, I'm excited to have youon and I know that we talked a
little bit before the interviewand you know I wanted really
this to be a conversationbecause you know you're
fascinating.
I have a couple more people Iknow that are going from the
(05:09):
first responder world to themental health slash, coaching
slash, whatever you want to callit world, and I think that's so
important because you bring aunique approach, and I mean that
from the bottom of my heart,because I think that sometimes
therapists, you know they willhave some of the life experience
, but having that type of lifeexperience really changes how
you present things.
But I feel like I'm describingyou right now.
So how about you tell me alittle bit about yourself?
Speaker 3 (05:24):
and thank you, steve.
So yes, as you mentioned, I wasin the police in the UK and I
was in that role for six years,just over six years and when I
first joined those six years ago, it was my dream job and I did
not see myself doing anythingelse like.
I had just one vision for lifeand I thought that was going to
(05:47):
be it.
But just before I was about tojoin the police, I went through
the death of my mum, which wasvery sudden and unexpected.
So it meant that when I wasjoining the police and starting
my training, I also had this bigbereavement going on in the
background and whilst it was, itwas a bit of a double-edged
(06:09):
sword because I was starting mydream career, but it was just at
a time where there was so muchsadness and a lot of difficulty
to manage.
And then, when you compare thatto police training and learning
to be a good police officer,that requires you to be at the
top of your game and reallyswitched on and I also found
that the culture at the time wasvery much and just get on with
(06:32):
it, and if you can't, then maybeyou're not up for the job.
That's the message, loud andclear that I got.
So I ended up pushing thosefeelings of grief down and
everything that was happening inmy personal life to be able to
survive and do well within mycareer, and for a long time that
worked.
I was very mindset driven andwas getting a lot of
(06:53):
achievements in life and withinthree years I was promoted and I
was doing really well in mycareer, loved it.
But all that grief and traumaunder the surface that I hadn't
dealt with was coming out inother ways and it was starting
to really unpick relationships.
Just the way I was lookingafter my health Until I reached
(07:14):
this point where I hit thisperiod of burnout and I felt
like everything went wrong inlife.
Everything just came crumblingdown.
And when I was at a period ofburnout and had Phil is sorry
when I had physically ill health, all that grief and all the
trauma came up too.
But there was nowhere to runand hide.
So I found myself in thisreally difficult position.
(07:34):
I was in a job with a lot ofresponsibility but I was
physically unwell and I wasstill going to work because I
didn't want to let anyone downor show any signs of kind of
weakness, given the culture andthe environment and probably my
own ego as well.
I didn't want to seem like Iwas weak and that I couldn't do
my job and then, underneath thesurface, I had all these
(07:56):
emotions and feelings that wereintensified because of how long
they'd been suppressed.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
So that was a real kind of crossroads moment for me
and that's kind of how I gotonto the path of breathwork and,
yeah, took a different lifepath, shall we say well, we'll
agree to disagree on that,because I think that helping the
community as a police officeror sergeant and working in the
(08:21):
breathwork in the mental healthfield there is helping others in
the same.
They're the same thing in thatway.
So we'll agree to disagree thatthey're a different life path.
I think it's similar, it's justa different way of dealing with
it.
Uh, and I'm very sorry for yourloss.
That's a young age to lose yourmom.
I'm sure that that was verydifficult.
What I'm hearing, too, issomeone who's been through
(08:42):
therapy, because I'm listeningto someone who's describing a
lot of different things.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
So, have you ever been in therapy which is a
standard question here infinding your way through therapy
, so only I've had some talkingtherapies that's what we call it
in the UK Maybe three occasions, for a few sessions each and
with varying experiences of them.
I think when I was younger itwasn't so great and I had like
(09:10):
an online phone call counsellingservice at work, which was
something that I used at thetime when I started to feel
really quite physically unwelland everything was coming up for
me and I had a few sessions andthat was a better experience.
But overall I haven't had along run of therapy.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Nothing wrong with that.
I mean, it's not for everyoneto get that, but I'm a big fan
of it, obviously, and it'scalled talking therapy in the UK
.
So thank you for theinformation.
I always learn something.
As far as the physical healthstuff, is that kind of resolved
itself for yourself, for you, oris it kind of like still an
ongoing process?
Speaker 3 (09:52):
yeah, so as we speak now, I am in the best, just
physical health and mentalhealth and spiritual health,
like that 360 health.
I'm just in such a good place.
It took a long time to gettheir mind.
It wasn't an overnight.
I think sometimes we can seethe before and the afters and we
(10:13):
can really emphasize the after,like look up where I am now and
think that we just jumped fromhere to here, but there was a
lot of hard work that went inbetween those two moments.
So yes, as of as of now, I'mreally good, but I wasn't very
good for a long time.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
I'm happy to hear that you're doing much better,
and I think that you pointed outsomething that I like to remind
people is that it's not alinear process.
Whether it's mental health,physical health or anything,
it's a long process.
You see the finished resultsand everyone's like, oh great,
look, you're finished.
Result.
Yeah, you know how much hell Iwent through, either physically
or mentally, to get to where I'mat.
I think it's an important thingto discuss with people.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
And just to be realistic with the starting
point, because I think if youcan see someone achieving
something or in a place thatseems so out of reach or just
you don't resonate with andthink that's nothing I can ever
achieve, it's like actuallysometimes we do need to see that
before, just that we can havethat, that connection and that I
(11:13):
, that identity between us.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
I mean you know that sometimes the limits we set is
only the ones we put in, so tospeak, and it's really on us and
it's really working throughthat process.
And I hear someone who wentthrough a lot of repression, to
the point where it causedphysical illness.
So when I tell people that youtalked about that 360 health, I
call it the mind, body, spiritconnection.
(11:37):
When you repress somethingmentally, it affects your body
and that's why you got to treateverything equally in order to
get to be a better human being.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
But I don't know what you think of that, but that's
just my view well, I alwaysthink back to a quote from the
founder of somatic experiencing,peter levine, and he talks
about if we don't express and werepress, then we become numb,
and numbness is like a livingdeath.
(12:05):
So to feel is to be human,essentially.
So when we suppress and repressand we become numb, we're
essentially just canceling outwhat it means to be human.
So that for me, was a reallybig part of the journey was
reconnecting back to the body,connecting the mind back to the
body, so that I could experiencelife again.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
And I agree, you know , like Levine is just a great
person.
I saw him live a few times,just a genuine human being and
really like him, and I'llprobably just try to note that
and put it in the show notesbecause I really like him a lot.
One of the things that also,when we talk about the
mind-body-spirit connection and360 health, you know you hear
(12:49):
about a top-up, a top-downapproach versus a bottom-up
approach.
I'm wondering if we can talk alittle more about the healing
journey, and is it top down, isit bottom up, is it sideways?
I mean, I really don't know.
So just want to have youropinion on that.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
So the top down approach and I'm sure it's like
this in many places in the worldthat we've placed so much
emphasis on the brain, the mind,neuroscience, psychology they
have a place 100%, and thisisn't about saying one's better
than the other, because what I'mgoing to touch on is that those
taken independently had causedme to become like disconnected
(13:30):
from here down.
So when I was at that point ofburnout, physical health, trauma
, what was really apparent forme was I needed a bit of a
different approach, and that'swhen I started working with the
breath work, which works withthe body and works on a somatic
level.
So the word somatic justbasically means of the body.
So that's things like nervoussystem regulation, somatic
(13:52):
therapies, breath work, and whatthat does is start connecting
the mind back to the body sothat they can work in harmony
with each other instead of beingtwo opposing parts.
And I think that's the real keypart.
It's not one or the other.
It's like when you know how touse the bottom-up approach with
(14:13):
the top-back-down approach,that's when we become really
powerful approach.
That's when we become reallypowerful, and I know that now,
if I wanted to go to therapy, Iwould have a much better
experience and get a lot morefrom it than when my body was
speaking a different languageand at a different place to
where my mind was at.
So the key is to use both.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
they're both really, really powerful entities and
it's just that connectionbetween the two, that mind, body
connection and so if someone inlike I'm just going to make it
up as I go here so when you talkabout someone who maybe injures
their foot, for example, andyou talk a little bit about
breath work and the somaticbreath work, and that foot
(14:51):
continues to feel bad forseveral weeks, how would you
treat someone like that?
How would you help them with thesomatic breath work?
In regards to helping them withthat, because sometimes you
know I'm from the school that weinjure stuff because of where
our minds are at, but I don'tknow where you stand on that.
And also want to get a littlebetter idea like an example,
because I think when we thinkabout bottom-up versus top-down,
(15:12):
I think it's a great idea whentwo therapists are talking or
two people who in this field dotalk, therapists are talking, or
two people who, in this field,do talk, but sometimes for
someone who may not maybejoining in, for something like
finding your way through therapy, they might not understand what
that means.
So you can use that example,any example you want.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
Yeah, great question.
So obviously someone with aninjury like that that's a
physical injury and that thebest place for them is to go to
the hospital, to the doctor, andget that physical injury dealt
with.
But with physical injury theremight come pain, with that,
emotions and like anger.
There might be ways that theirlife has to change because they
(15:50):
might be a very active personand all of a sudden they're
restricted because they can'tmove around as they would
usually and that can causestress, anxiety, depression and
that would be where thebreathwork would start to
support them.
It's to deal with the physicalsensations of our experience.
So the foot itself.
(16:11):
I wouldn't say come tobreathwork and I'll heal your
foot.
I absolutely not.
Please go to the hospital,please go to your doctor.
But I can help you deal with,like that, the physical
sensations and how that'sfeeling within your life on that
emotional, spiritual level, onthat deeper level, and to help
you to manage the stress, thetension and the feelings that
you have around that you know, I, I agree 100.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
I even go from.
I'm old school in the sensethat I do believe psychosomatic
stuff is true.
So, you know, for me, on adifferent point of view, I would
say that someone who injurestheir feet in any way, shape or
form is that they're afraid tostand up for something they
believe in, and that's why theirfoot hurts and maybe more.
That's my top-down approach.
(16:55):
But yeah, of course I like thatyou said.
You know, go to the doctor, goto your hospital, get it checked
.
And all I can think of is I'mfrom the Canadian system too,
where we have the socializedhospitals.
I'm like, go to the hospital,you'll be there for two days,
but you'll be better in a coupleof days.
(17:17):
Sorry, I had to put in thatlittle two cents about
socialized medicine, uh, and I'mnot saying it's better in the
united states, by the way, forthe record.
So let's, let's discuss alittle more about somatic breath
work, because I, I mean, I knowa little bit about it, but I've
never like, kind of like heardthat, like I don't know enough
about that kind of liketogetherness.
So breath work.
So that means, you know, youcall up someone to say, hey,
please work on my breath, whatdoes that mean?
(17:38):
And the somatic breath work.
How would you conceptualizesomeone and again, you worked
with the police, so you knowexactly what I'm going to say
With skeptical people who wouldlook at you and go, hmm, that's
a lot of bullshit what you justsaid.
How would you describe it andhow would you maybe address any
skepticism that people may have?
Speaker 3 (18:00):
Firstly, I'll just touch on the skepticism point
first, before I give you kind ofthe touching on the definition
of somatic breathwork and I'llsay that breathwork is
experiential because you'reworking with the nervous system.
So essentially, once someonehas an experience of the
breathwork it will speak foritself.
(18:20):
So actually I'm not here tomaybe I wouldn't necessarily
debate somebody's skepticism.
I would give them theexperience and let them make
their mind up.
If after that it's a no fromthem, then at least they know
that this is a no for me.
And yeah, if they want to beskeptical about it, then have an
experience, see if it works foryou.
(18:41):
If not, then great, you knowthat breathwork isn't for you.
But if you then have thisexperience and it's positive,
then great.
You just then you know changeto, had a shift in your mind and
you've found something new.
And that's kind of how I wouldsay with the skepticism.
And I suppose in terms of theway that I would address and
(19:02):
talk about what breathwork is, Iwould change the definition
slightly depending on who I waswith.
So I also work with frontlineworkers, but I also work with a
lot of entrepreneurs who arequite spiritual.
So I would use very differentlanguage in when I'm speaking to
spiritual entrepreneurs orthose from a personal
development background who arevery familiar with breathwork
(19:25):
and the kind of deeperconnotations with it, as opposed
to somebody who I was meetingfrom the police or the ambulance
service for the first time.
But generally, this is kind ofhow I like to introduce somatic
breathwork.
So I say the word somatic justbasically means of the body, and
within a breathwork practicewe're using the breath to
(19:48):
connect the mind back to thebody so that they can work in
harmony together again, insteadof working as two opposing parts
.
Because they're not workingtogether, they're working kind
of against each other.
And there's a few benefits tothis.
The first is that it allows usto go in and release any stress,
tension, energy and emotionsthat are trapped in the body.
(20:11):
But it also helps us to thinkmore clearly.
It helps us to rebalance ourenergy levels and our nervous
system.
So it's like pressing the resetbutton, and I think a lot of
people can resonate with wantingto feel less stressed, wanting
to feel more energy and justhaving a nice reset in the body.
And that's just how I wouldgenerally talk about it.
(20:31):
And then, depending on theperson or the context that we're
working whether that was a oneto one or a group session would
then, you know, make that alittle bit more personalized to
the situation, but that'sgenerally how I like to
introduce it, so that people cangenerally relate and know what
they're coming into and I doenjoy the answer you gave that.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
I'm not here to clear your skepticism.
Try it if you don't like it.
That doesn't work, that's finewith you.
Me, I mean, maybe one dayyou'll get back.
I mean, you know, as a reikipractitioner myself, um, it's on
my wall and you know, uh,working with first responders
and a lot of people, they gowell.
This stuff doesn't work likeall right, I don't really care.
(21:10):
You wanted more information,you let me know.
But eventually, when they starttrusting you and talking about
other stuff, they go well again.
This is my favorite quotewhat's this Reiki shit?
End quote.
And you can open up that stuff.
And when you talk about semanticbreeding, you know breath work,
I really talk about you knowreconnecting to yourself and
(21:31):
especially with people withanxiety, it's a really good
approach because they're liketrying to resolve their anxiety
by just talking to themselvesand I'm like that doesn't work.
Actually, therapy won't workreally.
What you need to do isreconnect to something simple
and we talk about I talk aboutneutrality, or even your
breathing, um, but like, for anexample, if we did talk about
(21:52):
anxiety, how would you helpsomeone with somatic breath work
?
Let's say they're they, theysay that I got a lot of anxiety.
I I just lost my child, I Ijust lost my car and my my
partner is not happy with me orwhatever.
How would you kind of help themmanage that anxiety through a
somatic breath work?
Speaker 3 (22:11):
so, as I was explaining before with um the
definition, when I was talkingabout the definition and when I
was talking into skepticism alittle, and I mentioned that
breathwork is experiential and aquote of one of my mentors is
always that the nervous systemis show not tell.
So it's.
It's basically, if someone ishaving an experience of anxiety,
(22:33):
the first half of thebreathwork session is actually
designed to stimulate thesympathetic nervous system.
So that's where stress, anxiety,lives and it's to actually take
them into that side of thenervous system.
So if there's any unexpressedemotions like if we're having
anxiety or there's somethingthat's stressing us out in our
(22:54):
life but we haven't quitecompleted the emotional cycle
going into that sympatheticnervous system and starting to
stimulate it's going to actuallyallow them to have the
expression of that emotion andthe release so that they can
complete the emotional cycle.
And when we get to that point,then that helps to tip them back
into the parasympathetic, whichis the breast and digest part
(23:18):
of the nervous system, so thatthey can come down again and
switch their system off.
So if there's anxiety andthere's stories playing around
in their mind and they've gotthe feelings of stress in their
body, what we're doing ishelping them to express and
release that from the body,turning their system on fully
and then, when that's complete,taking them down and showing
them how to turn their system onfully and then, when that's
(23:38):
complete, taking them down andshowing them how to turn their
system off fully.
So it's that recharge that I'mtalking about, it's that feeling
of having that expression sothat we can think more clearly,
because we're going back intothat side of the nervous system
that lets us rest again.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
And it makes perfect sense to go that.
Go that way and the paris.
Thank you for the greatexplanation of parasympathetic
versus sympathetic nervoussystem.
I think a lot of people don'tknow about those two systems and
it really is beneficial to dothat stuff so that you can
reconnect the mind and body andlet it be.
I think that one of the thingsthat I like about what you just
(24:17):
said is that you're letting itexpress itself, you're not
trying to repress it, and Ithink that that's one of the
biggest things I got from that.
Is there other things that youwould say somatic breathwork can
bring to other people otherthan learning to not suppress it
but actually express it?
Speaker 3 (24:33):
I often find that people come with something in
mind, find that people come withsomething in mind and at the
start of the session I also getthem to focus on a one-word
intention for something thatthey would like to receive.
But I also caveat that bysaying, the experience that you
might have might be different towhat you want, but it will be
what your body needs, that yourbody will inherently know what
(24:55):
it needs and it knows what torelease.
So what comes up for you iswanting to come up to be moved
through you and I thinksometimes people get that first
time round.
But for some people after maybeone or two sessions then they
get that.
But yes, so you might come inthinking actually I'm really
stressed and it it starts totouch on things that I call
(25:17):
secondary emotions.
So we might feel like tearfuland upset.
But if we start going into thatin the breath, work actually
underneath that, it might beanger that we need to express.
So there's sometimes thesesecondary emotions, so we might
think I feel upset today, I'dlike to release this grief or
sadness, but what it mightactually need to be doing is to
(25:40):
release some anger, so it justreally helps us to go into
whatever it is and going intothe depths of the emotion.
And that might not be what weconsciously, mentally come in
with, because the language ofthe body?
There's a, there's a truth toit.
We don't get involved in thelanguage of the body, it's the
language of the subconscious.
We come in, you know, with ourconscious mind.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Breathwork works with the subconscious mind, so
that's, that's the differenceyou know, all I can think of too
is uh, what you just said isinteresting, because I talk
about emotions, and anyone whohas had an opportunity to watch
inside out or inside out 2 talksabout managing those emotions.
I highly recommend those movies.
(26:22):
If anyone does have not achance, do you think that it
plays a factor when you know,like you talked about your
former job, and I certainly seethat a lot you know, crying
while you're at whatever sceneor whatever situation you are is
not acceptable.
So you turn to anger is gettingso.
(26:42):
Is it getting back to thatsadness and embracing those
emotions?
Because I think we repress alot of emotions too?
Speaker 3 (26:48):
yeah, and what I've seen with emergency responders
is that because they're used tomaybe suppressing their emotions
, so much disconnect being quitedisconnected, that can take
them a while to actuallyunderstand what emotions are
coming up and allow themselvesto let go.
So there's still a lot of kindof defenses and they have to
(27:09):
really start to feel safe to letthose walls down, because I
don't think that they've everhad a safe space to express
anger, sadness, whatever theyneed to express, and also
they're after had a safe spaceto express anger, sadness,
whatever they need to express.
And also they're often nowgoing from incident to incident
to incident to incident.
So their nervous systems, youknow, all over the place and
(27:30):
they're not absolutely able torelate to what emotions are
feeling, to what incidentssometimes, so inside just can
feel like a bit of a jumble.
So yeah, it's, it can be a bitof a journey.
Start linking back.
And I also find there aregender differences as well.
So for females, typically theymight cry in the session and
(27:56):
it's harder for them to expressthat anger.
So when I was talking aboutthose secondary emotions, what
we often find, if we dig a bitdeeper with some females, that
actually it's anger that needsto come out, and for guys it's
the opposite, so they mightexpress anger, but that
secondary emotion might actuallybe tears and grief and sadness
(28:16):
I'm very happy you brought upthe gender differences, because
that was my next thing too.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
I was going to ask you if you feel there's a
difference between genders.
So I really appreciate that.
I find that even socially, youknow, I don't think that what I
remind people is that we'resocially taught these things.
If I had to cry, by the way,during this podcast, I wouldn't
hesitate two seconds If it feltsad.
(28:41):
I felt sad, I couldn't careless, and people repress those
things and you know it'sacceptable.
I'm a male but I'm a therapist,so it's okay for me to cry.
But I think social norms play ahuge factor, because if you're
a female, crying is okay, butnot if you're working, you know,
as an emergency responder, asyou said, because you know what,
(29:02):
are you weak.
So I think that not only thatis, we embrace a lot of these
social norms versus reality andI think that with getting it
back to the somatic breath work,it's really going back to you
instead of like what socially isacceptable, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (29:17):
That's my thought yeah, it's like it's that safe
haven, that safe bubble to justgo in, clear out whatever's
there.
Although there's emotions andstresses like that, we all carry
, firstly from our work, but ourlives are so busy too and we
all have so much going on.
We have our own traumas andlosses and challenges and that's
(29:39):
a lot to carry, especially whenwe don't get time to sit and
process and we're not taught howto do that now.
So something likeBreathworkwork is from my
personal journey and from whatI've seen from my clients is
just a really powerful way tohave that release into it, to
(29:59):
express those emotions that wecarry around with us so
obviously there's a lot ofhealth benefits to this.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
I think that what we need to realize is our
well-being is not nobody else'sresponsibility but yourself.
And while I'm not always a bigfan of this statement, but I
remind some of my clients,sometimes no one's here to save
you.
You've got to really work onyourself and you've got to do
the work because you know Idon't know if you've experienced
(30:27):
that too, but even as atherapist, sometimes they're
like um well, you're going tosave me or you're going to fix
me and all that.
I'm like I've never fixed ahuman being in my life.
I barely can fix myself, so Ican't fix other people.
I can give you suggestions asto what to work on, and
hopefully that'll be beneficialin the longterm, but I don't fix
people.
So I don't know if thatwell-being and putting the power
(30:48):
in ourselves is part of it too,or if you see it differently,
or I just want to ask you.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
I love that you've touched on that, because
actually in the breathworktraining we talk about something
called the fix-it mentality,where most people are just so
used to looking to other peoplefor the answers or being told
what to do and looking outsideof themselves, and within that
there's almost a trust, firstlyin that person that I can't help
(31:15):
myself, but also from atherapist and practitioner
perspective, is that you'relooking at them as if you know
there's something wrong withthem or broken, and then you
need to fix them.
And that's when you can givethem the tools and the support.
But essentially they're doingit themselves, like their body
knows exactly what they need forgoing through the process.
(31:36):
And it's that empowering trustof like you know what you need
to do.
I'm just going to show you theway you do it and you create
your own healing, you createyour own well-being, you create
your own experience.
It's all in your hands.
It's quite empowering asopposed to well, you come to me
and then you're going to need tocome to me every time that you,
you know you feel stressed,anxious, etc.
(31:58):
It's that person.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
It's putting it in their hands and trusting them to
do so as well I like thatbecause even you know, without
knowing, you actually touchedbase on last week's episode
where we talked about thehealing process and how we got
to empower people and look attheir positives and you know,
not always looking at what'swrong, but what's right two
(32:28):
podcasts episodes together.
Speaker 3 (32:29):
so I appreciate that, because I really think the
other part too is that if weonly see ourselves as faulty, we
will meet our expectationsthere, and I think that that's a
biggest big problem too, whenyou're not like really
empowering yourself, and that'swhat I think you're talking
about yeah, I think as a culture, as globally, we've outsourced
a lot of our own emotions andour own health in the hands of
(32:51):
other people and I think thatnow it's all about just starting
to reclaim those things forourselves, like, yes, there are
some specialists and things weneed to go out there for 100
percent, but we can also startto just be empowered within
ourselves to do certain thingsfor ourselves and reclaim those
parts of ourselves to createthat healing journey.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
I so agree, because you talk about the breath work
stuff.
I remind people that we aresuch a divided we're starting to
see more and more obviously inthe United States.
We see it on a political level,but I I've again the canadian
in me.
All follows the canadian stuff.
Uh, you see it in france rightnow, because you know, you know
(33:37):
they always call us the cousinsup in quebec, so um.
And you see it in the uk too,with even, you know, different
prime minister being put in andwhat people are leaning towards
left and right, and then itbecomes our identity.
And I think that what I tellpeople is that that's because
you want to give power to otherpeople, because my belief system
is not affected, whether Abbyagrees with me or not, we can
(33:59):
have a nice conversation aboutit, but it's not like if Abby
says, steve, you're wrong aboutthis, that my life ends.
I think you say you outsource alot of our emotions.
I think we've outsourced ourself-esteem to other people
based on who we like versus whowe are it's, um, it's also.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
I mean going a little bit into the depths here, if
that's okay this is your part Iwant to like.
I've enjoyed our conversation sofar, so go as deep as you want,
because I really enjoy whatyou're talking about and please
go ahead so it just brings tomind a quote from Cooley who
(34:40):
states that I am not who I thinkI am and I'm not who you think
I am.
I am who you think that I am.
So it's essentially like we seeourselves like as a perception
of a perception, like we'reoften looking for our own
identity through how we believeothers perceive us, and I think
(35:01):
that all these different healingmodalities and therapies out
there are really just trying tobring us back to ourselves and
start to just reclaim who we arefundamentally and our own
authenticity and theauthenticity is so important
that you know this is what Istrive for, both in my podcast
and in my life in general.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
Yeah, there's a little bit of showboating in
there in in this podcast in someways, but ultimately what I
feel like the breath work.
You talk about breath work.
I talk about my, my spirituallife.
I talk about a lot of differentthings.
I've learned not to fake me andbeing able to be myself.
Sometimes it's painful andmaybe it's not myself, maybe
it's a reaction to what theother person says, but that
(35:45):
authenticity I also remindmyself that you know I'm not
going to spoil it too much, butyou know we're recording this a
little in advance.
Who I am today may not be theperson once this podcast is
released and there's nothingwrong with that but once we feel
like we got to meet what peoplethink of who we are, oh, that's
(36:05):
who they think I am.
That's why's why I gotta be.
I think it just puts you in aplace where you lose your
authenticity, you lose yourselfand you can't connect to your
body because you're like, whothe hell is this?
Speaker 3 (36:16):
and I felt like that in the first responder space.
I felt like I lost myauthenticity because in roles
where there's such that sense ofbelonging, you need to belong
because your life depends on itin certain situations.
So when you have that need tobelong like you lose your
(36:36):
authenticity.
And it took me a long time.
I'm still on that path.
You know I'm getting betterwith it every day.
But yeah, I lost my ownauthenticity for a very long
time whilst I was in the policeand that was very painful.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
You know like it's something that I've shared, I
think, on the podcast and, if Ihaven't, I certainly shared it
with other people when I workedin the first responder world.
I was never a first responder,I'm not stealing anyone's game
here but I kind of lost myselfin that too, because I was in a
(37:16):
different position.
I started wanting to fit in andyou know the tough guy image
and this has always been thatway.
If you think, I shaved my headand I've been like this.
I had no hair when I was 15.
So this is not a look at, thisis who I am.
But the other part of personabecame so much more important
and you know, I went from astrong feminist to someone who
at times was not very nice.
(37:37):
And I think, at the end of theday, I think that that
environment does change you,because you feel like you need
to be accepted, because you knowyou're in a shady situation,
you need to know that someone'sbehind you to support you or to
do that.
And then you got to change alittle bit of who you are and I
hear that from especially womenin general, but I don't know
(37:58):
what you think.
Speaker 3 (37:59):
But yeah, I, I think that I see it a lot, but I would
say there's not a lot ofawareness around that and what I
found with I mean, I'm in, I'min a unique position that I
worked for two different policeforces and I had actually two
very different experiences.
So this, you know, the things Italk about mainly about
(38:19):
authenticity were in the firstforce I worked for.
But in the second force thatwas very, very different, like I
could be human there and therewere some really great people
and this wasn't really our playthere.
So it also comes to show thatit is who you're surrounded by
and the culture that's deeplyembedded, like when you go in it
(38:41):
isn't just across the board.
So therefore, it doesn't haveto be the case.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
It doesn't have to and it's got to be something
that more places accept it.
But I also know that you knowyou talk about again.
If you feel I'm putting downany type of place, I'm not, but
sometimes we fit the role thatwe need to survive in and I
think that sometimes when you'renot given an opportunity to be
(39:06):
yourself and I worked in a jailfor a few years too that's
definitely a place where Icouldn't be myself and my
humanity was fucking gone and Idon't want to.
I treat people who work in thecorrections field now and it
definitely something they alsoacknowledge because you got to
fit in in order to surviveessentially.
But I also think that if youhave that one or two people that
(39:30):
you can be that way, I think itchanges the dynamic also.
So your second place, beingmore yourself probably helped
your healing process.
If you, I'm not doing anytherapy, I'm just saying, just
observing here?
Speaker 3 (39:43):
yeah, well, I have.
I obviously have to say thatfor me, at the first force that
I worked for, I didn't have thetools and skills that I have now
.
I came to them because of thedisconnection I experienced in
the first working environment.
So therefore it highlighted allmy limitations through just
going along with it and it.
When I worked in the secondforce, I had already, you know,
(40:06):
been doing the breath work andyou mentioned, at the second
force I had already, you know,been doing the breath work and
you mentioned at the startwhether I'd had therapy before.
I have had coaching with acoach who's a trauma specialist,
so slightly different.
But yeah, so after that point,when I'd gone into the second
force, that was almost like thesecond chance.
It was the experience I alwaysthought I would have in the
(40:27):
police and the experience Ialways wanted around, the people
I thought I would be around andthey were a reflection of who I
was at that time.
But I maybe wouldn't have gotthere if I hadn't have had all
those limitations exposed in thefirst force and in this, the
first experience, and I maybewouldn't have appreciated it as
well.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
I would have maybe just taken that for granted so
you're saying that experience iswhat we all need in order to
grow.
Of course, yes, I think thatthat's the other part too.
We talk about somatic breathwork.
I remind people about also oh,I shouldn't have done this, or I
wish I didn't go through thisand I tell people that's, that's
the worst thing you could everdo for yourself, because that is
(41:07):
what is your experience andbrought you to this point.
You know people who work in thefirst responder world, the first
emergency responders, as youcall them.
What I've always found is thatthere's something in their past
that made them say I want tohelp other people.
And people always laugh at mebecause, no, they wanted to have
a gun.
Or in the UK they don't, but no, they wanted to have a gun, or
my, you know, in the UK theydon't, but no, they wanted to
(41:28):
help people.
That's essentially what peopledo in the first responder world.
And going back to the breathwork and all, I don't regret any
of my experiences.
In fact, losing my best friendat age 12 in a fire is probably
what formed me the best.
Do I wish my friend was here?
Yeah, I could use five minutesof a hug with him.
Obviously do.
I wish my friend was here.
(41:49):
Yeah, I could use five minutesof a hug with him, obviously,
but it's not going to happen,right?
But it helped me realize that Inever want anyone to be alone
with any struggles that theyhave, because blaming no one, I
was alone and I will never letanyone be alone in that that's
really profound and just sosorry that you went through such
a big traumatic bereavement soyoung.
Speaker 3 (42:10):
Those experiences, as you say, like they do go on to
shape us and form oftentimespart of our purpose in life.
And you're completely right inwhat you say, that we are drawn
to frontline work for a reason,and whether they're open and
transparent about that reason ornot, some people say, oh, it
(42:30):
was just something they fellinto or it was a family
tradition to be in the police.
But I actually know a lot ofpeople, a lot of police officers
, who've had really traumaticexperiences growing up and they
join the police force becausethey want to use the experiences
to help others or also just totouch on you know, something
(42:52):
that we were talking about evenright at the start of the
episode.
When we're talking about thefoot, do you damage your foot
because you're not able to standup for yourself?
Is it you going into the policeas some form of reenactment in
terms of am I able to protectthose parts of me when I was
younger that I couldn't stand upfor myself at that time?
But here I am.
(43:13):
I'm feeling empowered.
Maybe it's driven from fearsometimes.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
I agree and the quote negative emotions are not
negative, they're an indicationof something's wrong.
And I kind of remind peoplelike, oh, I don't want anxiety.
I'm like, well, you'll be deadwhen you have no anxiety.
So that doesn't exist.
Or I don't want to feel sadanymore.
Well, no, it's normal to feelsad, it's not.
You know, if you lose X, y, z Ilost my best friend but of
(43:40):
course you're going to have someemotions and I think that you
know.
You talk about the breath workand doing that somatic breath
work.
I think that what brought me tomy realization of my spiritual
life is just sitting with theuncomfortable feeling that I had
, and I think that that's alittle bit of the essence of
what you were saying earlier.
And I I want to get it back tosomatic breath, where I tell my
(44:02):
first responders you felt likecrap being in that scene, being
in this position, good, feellike crap being in that scene,
being in this position, good,feel like crap, come in here,
feel like crap.
And they're like really, andI'm like, yeah, because that's
what's going to get it out ofyou, because if you sit like
crap and you repress it, it'sgoing to break your foot and I'm
just making up the analogy wetalked earlier, but it's going
to break you somewhere else.
(44:23):
So, going back to the somaticbreath work and a little bit of
the stuff about negativeemotions, I really think it's a
good way to even work with firstresponders to kind of like get
them to embrace that hey, it'sokay to feel that way.
You want to come and cry in myoffice and you want to leave
with a smile?
That's great, but don't denythose quote negative emotions.
Speaker 3 (44:41):
Yeah for sure, and I think that comes down to this
misconception that we have thatresilience is not feeling
anything and being able to plowthrough every experience.
And this is really no.
That is like the completeopposite to resilience.
Is a resilient person somebodywho can't feel any emotions and
only has like one defaultemotion, and like they can't
(45:03):
express or love anymore or theycan't actually feel anger or
sadness?
Or is it someone who can gointo the depth of every single
emotion, feel it and be able tomove past it and hold it and sit
in it?
And it's the switch betweenthose two.
It isn't an easy path, but Iused to take the first one.
I used to think, right, well,if I just push this down, I
(45:24):
don't think about this grief, Idon't know how to deal with it,
I'll push it down and plowthrough.
But it came back to bite meyears down the line.
It took five plus years to dealwith that grief.
Speaker 2 (45:34):
And it takes a long time to get out of that mindset.
As you said, I didn't feelanything.
That's resiliency.
I'm proud of that.
Speaker 3 (45:47):
And it's hard to break that because you feel good
that you fought through, so tospeak.
And it was a lot harder tostart being able to sit with my
emotions.
But once I started to learn howto regulate my emotions and my
nervous system, I suppose it'smaybe not the emotions we fear,
it's the reactivity that we fear, because when we take away the,
when we have emotions, and wetake away the reactivity and the
(46:09):
sensitivity and we learn to sitwith them and regulate, that's
when we have resilience andthat's when we have authenticity
.
But if we again go back to thequote that I shared at the start
, if we suppress and repress, webecome numb and that's when
we're living a living death well, I'm I'm going to quote a
little bit of spirituality herebefore we uh, kind of like
(46:31):
getting close to wrapping uphere.
Speaker 2 (46:33):
But I go back to a statement.
I think it's a thich nhan hangquote what I resist persists,
and I remind people of that too,like, oh no, I don't have this,
I don't have that, and you knowyou're resisting it, but that's
okay.
But you're going to see thatit's going to persist even more
instead of letting it go.
Speaker 3 (46:49):
But that's a little bit of the breath work stuff
that we talked about too yeah,for sure it's that it's wanting
to come up and move through youbecause you don't want to hold
on to it anymore.
But almost, to do that, youhave to go through the lesson
and you have to go through thecycle.
A cycle has to end for a newone to begin.
Speaker 2 (47:08):
Well, I think that you have a lot to offer with
those cycles and thatinformation.
I know that you might be doingsharing some stuff with the
world in regards to that stuff,Can you tell me more about it?
Speaker 3 (47:20):
So, yes, I am currently offering breathwork
sessions.
I'm currently offeringbreathwork sessions, so I offer
one-to-one experiences, whichare great for those who are
maybe new to breathwork or verycurious or want to have a very
private experience, or that wecan do that in groups as well,
and it can be done online andthat's great if you have a group
(47:43):
of friends and you want to havea breathwork session together
and have an experience.
Sometimes it's it can give uspermission, when other people
are expressing to, to let go.
So there's beauty in both onehaving that personal private
experience or being around otherpeople.
It's that co-regulation sharedit.
Speaker 2 (48:03):
you know, environment shared expression so you know,
I'm just going to mention that Ido a group for first responders
and you know, a couple ofmonths ago someone really shared
a hard experience they wentthrough and then now everyone's
sharing their experience andeveryone's giving each other
space and you know, the commentI get all the time is like, oh,
(48:25):
I feel I can let go and just bemyself in here.
I think that that's what it is,the group experience.
I like the breath work stufffor that, because then you can
have other people around youhaving that same experience.
But I don't know.
That's kind of what I heard yousay yeah.
Speaker 3 (48:39):
Well, it sounds like you've created like a safe
container and it's yeah.
So people know when I'm in thisspace I'm safe and we need to
actually feel safety beforeanything else comes.
So we won't have an expressionor release within breathwork
until we have the safety.
That's fundamental.
So sometimes we just need towork on the safety element a
(49:00):
little bit longer.
But once it's there, onceyou've got that trust, that's
when you can relax and let go.
Speaker 2 (49:06):
It's fundamental well , how are we going to reach you
if we want one-on-one sessionsor even video sessions and, by
the way, I'm going to say itright now, I'm talking to my
first responders, who alwaysreport listening to this podcast
.
Look, someone who's been theredone that, has a few t-shirts
can really really help you.
So I want to make sure that youheard me say that.
(49:27):
So how do people reach you,abby?
Speaker 3 (49:30):
so at present I am on Instagram.
My Instagram is healingunderscore sorry, healing
underscore blue underscorehearts, so it's healing blue
hearts.
There is a link within my bioin there which will take you
through to book an onlinesession.
(49:50):
However, you can reach out tome via dm because if you are a
first responder, I will give youa special offer on the price of
a breathwork session well, Iappreciate that I've been not
being a first responder butworking with many of them for
several years.
Speaker 2 (50:06):
I thank you for that offer.
I it is well needed, so I'mgonna I'm making sure I'm gonna
put that in the show notes.
Healing blue hearts.
Make sure to dm you or click onthe link in there for it to
reach you.
Um, anything else you wouldlike to add?
Speaker 3 (50:21):
I know I think we have gone in all corners of all
things healing and frontlinework and breath work today.
So thank you very much for that.
It's been a really interestingconversation.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
I can't tell you how much I appreciate you.
I appreciate the service thatyou did for the community.
More importantly, I reallyappreciate the service you're
doing right now with the breathwork and the somatic breath work
, because I think that'ssomething that is not well
understood and is absolutelyneeded.
So thank you for that too.
Speaker 3 (50:51):
Thank you, appreciate it, and likewise, likewise for
your work supporting those onthe front line and creating safe
containers.
Speaker 2 (51:00):
Well, I appreciate that and I will talk to you soon
, hopefully.
Well, this concludes episode173.
Abby Westgate.
Thank you so much.
This was a great interview.
I hope you enjoyed it, becauseI certainly did, but episode 174
will be with something a littledifferent.
We talk a lot about firstresponder stuff here, but here's
someone who's going to tell ushow to work.
I read her book it's amazing,stephanie Cohen and she's going
(51:22):
to talk about how to overcomeher fear of dogs, and I hope you
join us then.
Speaker 1 (51:27):
Please like, subscribe and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful and, as a reminder, this
podcast is for informational,educational and entertainment
purposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(51:50):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
Hi and welcome to Finding your Way Through Therapy
.
A proud member of thePsychCraft Network, the goal of
this podcast is to demystifytherapy, what can happen in
therapy and the wide array ofconversations you can have in
and about therapy Throughpersonal experiences.
Guests will talk about therapy,their experiences with it and
(00:24):
how psychology and therapy arepresent in many places in their
lives, with lots of authenticityand a touch of humor.
Here is your host, steve Bisson.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Merci de continuer à écouter.
Thank you for continuing tolisten.
And hi, and welcome to episode173 of finding your way through
therapy.
If you haven't listened toepisode 172 yet, go back and
listen.
There was the mental men.
Again, we had a lot of goodconversation in regards to
mentorship, among other things,and, you know, go listen to it.
We talked about the old ways oftraining.
(00:58):
We've came up with a couple ofideas that for the future.
I don't know if they're goingto come out or not, but
certainly we had that.
But episode 173 will be withAbby Westgate.
Abby Westgate is a former UKpolice sergeant.
She served for about six years.
She was passionate about herwork but fell seriously ill a
year from stress, burnout andtrauma in both her professional
(01:20):
and her personal life.
On her road to recovery shediscovered a different approach
to healing and was working onbody semantics as well as the
nervous system.
This became her new passion.
Two years later she walked awayfrom her job and became a
somatic breathwork practitionerand she runs her own business.
She's going to surely talkabout that and it's called
Healing Blue Hearts.
(01:40):
She has a lot of things to sayabout her experience in the UK
as a police sergeant.
So here's the interview.
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Well, hi and welcome to episode173.
This is an exciting episode forme because Abby Westgate or
Abby Westgate just want to makesure I pronounce it properly
Abby.
Abby is a former United Kingdompolice sergeant and has shifted
her world into something moreinteresting to me, not because
(04:23):
it's not interesting to talkabout first responder stuff, but
really somatic breath work, andshe wants to share all this
with us plus more, I'm sure.
And yes, for those of you wholisten to this regularly, yeah,
breath work is hard.
It's a TH and it's not my firstlanguage, so please give me a
break.
So, abby Westgate, welcome toFinding your Way Through Therapy
(04:44):
, hi Steve.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
Thank you for having me.
Please give me a break.
So, abby Westgate, welcome toFinding your.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Way Through Therapy.
Hi Steve, thank you for havingme today.
Well, I'm excited to have youon and I know that we talked a
little bit before the interviewand you know I wanted really
this to be a conversationbecause you know you're
fascinating.
I have a couple more people Iknow that are going from the
(05:09):
first responder world to themental health slash, coaching
slash, whatever you want to callit world, and I think that's so
important because you bring aunique approach, and I mean that
from the bottom of my heart,because I think that sometimes
therapists, you know they willhave some of the life experience
, but having that type of lifeexperience really changes how
you present things.
But I feel like I'm describingyou right now.
So how about you tell me alittle bit about yourself?
Speaker 3 (05:24):
and thank you, steve.
So yes, as you mentioned, I wasin the police in the UK and I
was in that role for six years,just over six years and when I
first joined those six years ago, it was my dream job and I did
not see myself doing anythingelse like.
I had just one vision for lifeand I thought that was going to
(05:47):
be it.
But just before I was about tojoin the police, I went through
the death of my mum, which wasvery sudden and unexpected.
So it meant that when I wasjoining the police and starting
my training, I also had this bigbereavement going on in the
background and whilst it was, itwas a bit of a double-edged
(06:09):
sword because I was starting mydream career, but it was just at
a time where there was so muchsadness and a lot of difficulty
to manage.
And then, when you compare thatto police training and learning
to be a good police officer,that requires you to be at the
top of your game and reallyswitched on and I also found
that the culture at the time wasvery much and just get on with
(06:32):
it, and if you can't, then maybeyou're not up for the job.
That's the message, loud andclear that I got.
So I ended up pushing thosefeelings of grief down and
everything that was happening inmy personal life to be able to
survive and do well within mycareer, and for a long time that
worked.
I was very mindset driven andwas getting a lot of
(06:53):
achievements in life and withinthree years I was promoted and I
was doing really well in mycareer, loved it.
But all that grief and traumaunder the surface that I hadn't
dealt with was coming out inother ways and it was starting
to really unpick relationships.
Just the way I was lookingafter my health Until I reached
(07:14):
this point where I hit thisperiod of burnout and I felt
like everything went wrong inlife.
Everything just came crumblingdown.
And when I was at a period ofburnout and had Phil is sorry
when I had physically ill health, all that grief and all the
trauma came up too.
But there was nowhere to runand hide.
So I found myself in thisreally difficult position.
(07:34):
I was in a job with a lot ofresponsibility but I was
physically unwell and I wasstill going to work because I
didn't want to let anyone downor show any signs of kind of
weakness, given the culture andthe environment and probably my
own ego as well.
I didn't want to seem like Iwas weak and that I couldn't do
my job and then, underneath thesurface, I had all these
(07:56):
emotions and feelings that wereintensified because of how long
they'd been suppressed.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
So that was a real kind of crossroads moment for me
and that's kind of how I gotonto the path of breathwork and,
yeah, took a different lifepath, shall we say well, we'll
agree to disagree on that,because I think that helping the
community as a police officeror sergeant and working in the
(08:21):
breathwork in the mental healthfield there is helping others in
the same.
They're the same thing in thatway.
So we'll agree to disagree thatthey're a different life path.
I think it's similar, it's justa different way of dealing with
it.
Uh, and I'm very sorry for yourloss.
That's a young age to lose yourmom.
I'm sure that that was verydifficult.
What I'm hearing, too, issomeone who's been through
(08:42):
therapy, because I'm listeningto someone who's describing a
lot of different things.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
So, have you ever been in therapy which is a
standard question here infinding your way through therapy
, so only I've had some talkingtherapies that's what we call it
in the UK Maybe three occasions, for a few sessions each and
with varying experiences of them.
I think when I was younger itwasn't so great and I had like
(09:10):
an online phone call counsellingservice at work, which was
something that I used at thetime when I started to feel
really quite physically unwelland everything was coming up for
me and I had a few sessions andthat was a better experience.
But overall I haven't had along run of therapy.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Nothing wrong with that.
I mean, it's not for everyoneto get that, but I'm a big fan
of it, obviously, and it'scalled talking therapy in the UK
.
So thank you for theinformation.
I always learn something.
As far as the physical healthstuff, is that kind of resolved
itself for yourself, for you, oris it kind of like still an
ongoing process?
Speaker 3 (09:52):
yeah, so as we speak now, I am in the best, just
physical health and mentalhealth and spiritual health,
like that 360 health.
I'm just in such a good place.
It took a long time to gettheir mind.
It wasn't an overnight.
I think sometimes we can seethe before and the afters and we
(10:13):
can really emphasize the after,like look up where I am now and
think that we just jumped fromhere to here, but there was a
lot of hard work that went inbetween those two moments.
So yes, as of as of now, I'mreally good, but I wasn't very
good for a long time.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
I'm happy to hear that you're doing much better,
and I think that you pointed outsomething that I like to remind
people is that it's not alinear process.
Whether it's mental health,physical health or anything,
it's a long process.
You see the finished resultsand everyone's like, oh great,
look, you're finished.
Result.
Yeah, you know how much hell Iwent through, either physically
or mentally, to get to where I'mat.
I think it's an important thingto discuss with people.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
And just to be realistic with the starting
point, because I think if youcan see someone achieving
something or in a place thatseems so out of reach or just
you don't resonate with andthink that's nothing I can ever
achieve, it's like actuallysometimes we do need to see that
before, just that we can havethat, that connection and that I
(11:13):
, that identity between us.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
I mean you know that sometimes the limits we set is
only the ones we put in, so tospeak, and it's really on us and
it's really working throughthat process.
And I hear someone who wentthrough a lot of repression, to
the point where it causedphysical illness.
So when I tell people that youtalked about that 360 health, I
call it the mind, body, spiritconnection.
(11:37):
When you repress somethingmentally, it affects your body
and that's why you got to treateverything equally in order to
get to be a better human being.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
But I don't know what you think of that, but that's
just my view well, I alwaysthink back to a quote from the
founder of somatic experiencing,peter levine, and he talks
about if we don't express and werepress, then we become numb,
and numbness is like a livingdeath.
(12:05):
So to feel is to be human,essentially.
So when we suppress and repressand we become numb, we're
essentially just canceling outwhat it means to be human.
So that for me, was a reallybig part of the journey was
reconnecting back to the body,connecting the mind back to the
body, so that I could experiencelife again.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
And I agree, you know , like Levine is just a great
person.
I saw him live a few times,just a genuine human being and
really like him, and I'llprobably just try to note that
and put it in the show notesbecause I really like him a lot.
One of the things that also,when we talk about the
mind-body-spirit connection and360 health, you know you hear
(12:49):
about a top-up, a top-downapproach versus a bottom-up
approach.
I'm wondering if we can talk alittle more about the healing
journey, and is it top down, isit bottom up, is it sideways?
I mean, I really don't know.
So just want to have youropinion on that.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
So the top down approach and I'm sure it's like
this in many places in the worldthat we've placed so much
emphasis on the brain, the mind,neuroscience, psychology they
have a place 100%, and thisisn't about saying one's better
than the other, because what I'mgoing to touch on is that those
taken independently had causedme to become like disconnected
(13:30):
from here down.
So when I was at that point ofburnout, physical health, trauma
, what was really apparent forme was I needed a bit of a
different approach, and that'swhen I started working with the
breath work, which works withthe body and works on a somatic
level.
So the word somatic justbasically means of the body.
So that's things like nervoussystem regulation, somatic
(13:52):
therapies, breath work, and whatthat does is start connecting
the mind back to the body sothat they can work in harmony
with each other instead of beingtwo opposing parts.
And I think that's the real keypart.
It's not one or the other.
It's like when you know how touse the bottom-up approach with
(14:13):
the top-back-down approach,that's when we become really
powerful approach.
That's when we become reallypowerful, and I know that now,
if I wanted to go to therapy, Iwould have a much better
experience and get a lot morefrom it than when my body was
speaking a different languageand at a different place to
where my mind was at.
So the key is to use both.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
they're both really, really powerful entities and
it's just that connectionbetween the two, that mind, body
connection and so if someone inlike I'm just going to make it
up as I go here so when you talkabout someone who maybe injures
their foot, for example, andyou talk a little bit about
breath work and the somaticbreath work, and that foot
(14:51):
continues to feel bad forseveral weeks, how would you
treat someone like that?
How would you help them with thesomatic breath work?
In regards to helping them withthat, because sometimes you
know I'm from the school that weinjure stuff because of where
our minds are at, but I don'tknow where you stand on that.
And also want to get a littlebetter idea like an example,
because I think when we thinkabout bottom-up versus top-down,
(15:12):
I think it's a great idea whentwo therapists are talking or
two people who in this field dotalk, therapists are talking, or
two people who, in this field,do talk, but sometimes for
someone who may not maybejoining in, for something like
finding your way through therapy, they might not understand what
that means.
So you can use that example,any example you want.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
Yeah, great question.
So obviously someone with aninjury like that that's a
physical injury and that thebest place for them is to go to
the hospital, to the doctor, andget that physical injury dealt
with.
But with physical injury theremight come pain, with that,
emotions and like anger.
There might be ways that theirlife has to change because they
(15:50):
might be a very active personand all of a sudden they're
restricted because they can'tmove around as they would
usually and that can causestress, anxiety, depression and
that would be where thebreathwork would start to
support them.
It's to deal with the physicalsensations of our experience.
So the foot itself.
(16:11):
I wouldn't say come tobreathwork and I'll heal your
foot.
I absolutely not.
Please go to the hospital,please go to your doctor.
But I can help you deal with,like that, the physical
sensations and how that'sfeeling within your life on that
emotional, spiritual level, onthat deeper level, and to help
you to manage the stress, thetension and the feelings that
you have around that you know, I, I agree 100.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
I even go from.
I'm old school in the sensethat I do believe psychosomatic
stuff is true.
So, you know, for me, on adifferent point of view, I would
say that someone who injurestheir feet in any way, shape or
form is that they're afraid tostand up for something they
believe in, and that's why theirfoot hurts and maybe more.
That's my top-down approach.
(16:55):
But yeah, of course I like thatyou said.
You know, go to the doctor, goto your hospital, get it checked
.
And all I can think of is I'mfrom the Canadian system too,
where we have the socializedhospitals.
I'm like, go to the hospital,you'll be there for two days,
but you'll be better in a coupleof days.
(17:17):
Sorry, I had to put in thatlittle two cents about
socialized medicine, uh, and I'mnot saying it's better in the
united states, by the way, forthe record.
So let's, let's discuss alittle more about somatic breath
work, because I, I mean, I knowa little bit about it, but I've
never like, kind of like heardthat, like I don't know enough
about that kind of liketogetherness.
So breath work.
So that means, you know, youcall up someone to say, hey,
please work on my breath, whatdoes that mean?
(17:38):
And the somatic breath work.
How would you conceptualizesomeone and again, you worked
with the police, so you knowexactly what I'm going to say
With skeptical people who wouldlook at you and go, hmm, that's
a lot of bullshit what you justsaid.
How would you describe it andhow would you maybe address any
skepticism that people may have?
Speaker 3 (18:00):
Firstly, I'll just touch on the skepticism point
first, before I give you kind ofthe touching on the definition
of somatic breathwork and I'llsay that breathwork is
experiential because you'reworking with the nervous system.
So essentially, once someonehas an experience of the
breathwork it will speak foritself.
(18:20):
So actually I'm not here tomaybe I wouldn't necessarily
debate somebody's skepticism.
I would give them theexperience and let them make
their mind up.
If after that it's a no fromthem, then at least they know
that this is a no for me.
And yeah, if they want to beskeptical about it, then have an
experience, see if it works foryou.
(18:41):
If not, then great, you knowthat breathwork isn't for you.
But if you then have thisexperience and it's positive,
then great.
You just then you know changeto, had a shift in your mind and
you've found something new.
And that's kind of how I wouldsay with the skepticism.
And I suppose in terms of theway that I would address and
(19:02):
talk about what breathwork is, Iwould change the definition
slightly depending on who I waswith.
So I also work with frontlineworkers, but I also work with a
lot of entrepreneurs who arequite spiritual.
So I would use very differentlanguage in when I'm speaking to
spiritual entrepreneurs orthose from a personal
development background who arevery familiar with breathwork
(19:25):
and the kind of deeperconnotations with it, as opposed
to somebody who I was meetingfrom the police or the ambulance
service for the first time.
But generally, this is kind ofhow I like to introduce somatic
breathwork.
So I say the word somatic justbasically means of the body, and
within a breathwork practicewe're using the breath to
(19:48):
connect the mind back to thebody so that they can work in
harmony together again, insteadof working as two opposing parts
.
Because they're not workingtogether, they're working kind
of against each other.
And there's a few benefits tothis.
The first is that it allows usto go in and release any stress,
tension, energy and emotionsthat are trapped in the body.
(20:11):
But it also helps us to thinkmore clearly.
It helps us to rebalance ourenergy levels and our nervous
system.
So it's like pressing the resetbutton, and I think a lot of
people can resonate with wantingto feel less stressed, wanting
to feel more energy and justhaving a nice reset in the body.
And that's just how I wouldgenerally talk about it.
(20:31):
And then, depending on theperson or the context that we're
working whether that was a oneto one or a group session would
then, you know, make that alittle bit more personalized to
the situation, but that'sgenerally how I like to
introduce it, so that people cangenerally relate and know what
they're coming into and I doenjoy the answer you gave that.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
I'm not here to clear your skepticism.
Try it if you don't like it.
That doesn't work, that's finewith you.
Me, I mean, maybe one dayyou'll get back.
I mean, you know, as a reikipractitioner myself, um, it's on
my wall and you know, uh,working with first responders
and a lot of people, they gowell.
This stuff doesn't work likeall right, I don't really care.
(21:10):
You wanted more information,you let me know.
But eventually, when they starttrusting you and talking about
other stuff, they go well again.
This is my favorite quotewhat's this Reiki shit?
End quote.
And you can open up that stuff.
And when you talk about semanticbreeding, you know breath work,
I really talk about you knowreconnecting to yourself and
(21:31):
especially with people withanxiety, it's a really good
approach because they're liketrying to resolve their anxiety
by just talking to themselvesand I'm like that doesn't work.
Actually, therapy won't workreally.
What you need to do isreconnect to something simple
and we talk about I talk aboutneutrality, or even your
breathing, um, but like, for anexample, if we did talk about
(21:52):
anxiety, how would you helpsomeone with somatic breath work
?
Let's say they're they, theysay that I got a lot of anxiety.
I I just lost my child, I Ijust lost my car and my my
partner is not happy with me orwhatever.
How would you kind of help themmanage that anxiety through a
somatic breath work?
Speaker 3 (22:11):
so, as I was explaining before with um the
definition, when I was talkingabout the definition and when I
was talking into skepticism alittle, and I mentioned that
breathwork is experiential and aquote of one of my mentors is
always that the nervous systemis show not tell.
So it's.
It's basically, if someone ishaving an experience of anxiety,
(22:33):
the first half of thebreathwork session is actually
designed to stimulate thesympathetic nervous system.
So that's where stress, anxiety,lives and it's to actually take
them into that side of thenervous system.
So if there's any unexpressedemotions like if we're having
anxiety or there's somethingthat's stressing us out in our
(22:54):
life but we haven't quitecompleted the emotional cycle
going into that sympatheticnervous system and starting to
stimulate it's going to actuallyallow them to have the
expression of that emotion andthe release so that they can
complete the emotional cycle.
And when we get to that point,then that helps to tip them back
into the parasympathetic, whichis the breast and digest part
(23:18):
of the nervous system, so thatthey can come down again and
switch their system off.
So if there's anxiety andthere's stories playing around
in their mind and they've gotthe feelings of stress in their
body, what we're doing ishelping them to express and
release that from the body,turning their system on fully
and then, when that's complete,taking them down and showing
them how to turn their system onfully and then, when that's
(23:38):
complete, taking them down andshowing them how to turn their
system off fully.
So it's that recharge that I'mtalking about, it's that feeling
of having that expression sothat we can think more clearly,
because we're going back intothat side of the nervous system
that lets us rest again.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
And it makes perfect sense to go that.
Go that way and the paris.
Thank you for the greatexplanation of parasympathetic
versus sympathetic nervoussystem.
I think a lot of people don'tknow about those two systems and
it really is beneficial to dothat stuff so that you can
reconnect the mind and body andlet it be.
I think that one of the thingsthat I like about what you just
(24:17):
said is that you're letting itexpress itself, you're not
trying to repress it, and Ithink that that's one of the
biggest things I got from that.
Is there other things that youwould say somatic breathwork can
bring to other people otherthan learning to not suppress it
but actually express it?
Speaker 3 (24:33):
I often find that people come with something in
mind, find that people come withsomething in mind and at the
start of the session I also getthem to focus on a one-word
intention for something thatthey would like to receive.
But I also caveat that bysaying, the experience that you
might have might be different towhat you want, but it will be
what your body needs, that yourbody will inherently know what
(24:55):
it needs and it knows what torelease.
So what comes up for you iswanting to come up to be moved
through you and I thinksometimes people get that first
time round.
But for some people after maybeone or two sessions then they
get that.
But yes, so you might come inthinking actually I'm really
stressed and it it starts totouch on things that I call
(25:17):
secondary emotions.
So we might feel like tearfuland upset.
But if we start going into thatin the breath, work actually
underneath that, it might beanger that we need to express.
So there's sometimes thesesecondary emotions, so we might
think I feel upset today, I'dlike to release this grief or
sadness, but what it mightactually need to be doing is to
(25:40):
release some anger, so it justreally helps us to go into
whatever it is and going intothe depths of the emotion.
And that might not be what weconsciously, mentally come in
with, because the language ofthe body?
There's a, there's a truth toit.
We don't get involved in thelanguage of the body, it's the
language of the subconscious.
We come in, you know, with ourconscious mind.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Breathwork works with the subconscious mind, so
that's, that's the differenceyou know, all I can think of too
is uh, what you just said isinteresting, because I talk
about emotions, and anyone whohas had an opportunity to watch
inside out or inside out 2 talksabout managing those emotions.
I highly recommend those movies.
(26:22):
If anyone does have not achance, do you think that it
plays a factor when you know,like you talked about your
former job, and I certainly seethat a lot you know, crying
while you're at whatever sceneor whatever situation you are is
not acceptable.
So you turn to anger is gettingso.
(26:42):
Is it getting back to thatsadness and embracing those
emotions?
Because I think we repress alot of emotions too?
Speaker 3 (26:48):
yeah, and what I've seen with emergency responders
is that because they're used tomaybe suppressing their emotions
, so much disconnect being quitedisconnected, that can take
them a while to actuallyunderstand what emotions are
coming up and allow themselvesto let go.
So there's still a lot of kindof defenses and they have to
(27:09):
really start to feel safe to letthose walls down, because I
don't think that they've everhad a safe space to express
anger, sadness, whatever theyneed to express, and also
they're after had a safe spaceto express anger, sadness,
whatever they need to express.
And also they're often nowgoing from incident to incident
to incident to incident.
So their nervous systems, youknow, all over the place and
(27:30):
they're not absolutely able torelate to what emotions are
feeling, to what incidentssometimes, so inside just can
feel like a bit of a jumble.
So yeah, it's, it can be a bitof a journey.
Start linking back.
And I also find there aregender differences as well.
So for females, typically theymight cry in the session and
(27:56):
it's harder for them to expressthat anger.
So when I was talking aboutthose secondary emotions, what
we often find, if we dig a bitdeeper with some females, that
actually it's anger that needsto come out, and for guys it's
the opposite, so they mightexpress anger, but that
secondary emotion might actuallybe tears and grief and sadness
(28:16):
I'm very happy you brought upthe gender differences, because
that was my next thing too.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
I was going to ask you if you feel there's a
difference between genders.
So I really appreciate that.
I find that even socially, youknow, I don't think that what I
remind people is that we'resocially taught these things.
If I had to cry, by the way,during this podcast, I wouldn't
hesitate two seconds If it feltsad.
(28:41):
I felt sad, I couldn't careless, and people repress those
things and you know it'sacceptable.
I'm a male but I'm a therapist,so it's okay for me to cry.
But I think social norms play ahuge factor, because if you're
a female, crying is okay, butnot if you're working, you know,
as an emergency responder, asyou said, because you know what,
(29:02):
are you weak.
So I think that not only thatis, we embrace a lot of these
social norms versus reality andI think that with getting it
back to the somatic breath work,it's really going back to you
instead of like what socially isacceptable, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (29:17):
That's my thought yeah, it's like it's that safe
haven, that safe bubble to justgo in, clear out whatever's
there.
Although there's emotions andstresses like that, we all carry
, firstly from our work, but ourlives are so busy too and we
all have so much going on.
We have our own traumas andlosses and challenges and that's
(29:39):
a lot to carry, especially whenwe don't get time to sit and
process and we're not taught howto do that now.
So something likeBreathworkwork is from my
personal journey and from whatI've seen from my clients is
just a really powerful way tohave that release into it, to
(29:59):
express those emotions that wecarry around with us so
obviously there's a lot ofhealth benefits to this.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
I think that what we need to realize is our
well-being is not nobody else'sresponsibility but yourself.
And while I'm not always a bigfan of this statement, but I
remind some of my clients,sometimes no one's here to save
you.
You've got to really work onyourself and you've got to do
the work because you know Idon't know if you've experienced
(30:27):
that too, but even as atherapist, sometimes they're
like um well, you're going tosave me or you're going to fix
me and all that.
I'm like I've never fixed ahuman being in my life.
I barely can fix myself, so Ican't fix other people.
I can give you suggestions asto what to work on, and
hopefully that'll be beneficialin the longterm, but I don't fix
people.
So I don't know if thatwell-being and putting the power
(30:48):
in ourselves is part of it too,or if you see it differently,
or I just want to ask you.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
I love that you've touched on that, because
actually in the breathworktraining we talk about something
called the fix-it mentality,where most people are just so
used to looking to other peoplefor the answers or being told
what to do and looking outsideof themselves, and within that
there's almost a trust, firstlyin that person that I can't help
(31:15):
myself, but also from atherapist and practitioner
perspective, is that you'relooking at them as if you know
there's something wrong withthem or broken, and then you
need to fix them.
And that's when you can givethem the tools and the support.
But essentially they're doingit themselves, like their body
knows exactly what they need forgoing through the process.
(31:36):
And it's that empowering trustof like you know what you need
to do.
I'm just going to show you theway you do it and you create
your own healing, you createyour own well-being, you create
your own experience.
It's all in your hands.
It's quite empowering asopposed to well, you come to me
and then you're going to need tocome to me every time that you,
you know you feel stressed,anxious, etc.
(31:58):
It's that person.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
It's putting it in their hands and trusting them to
do so as well I like thatbecause even you know, without
knowing, you actually touchedbase on last week's episode
where we talked about thehealing process and how we got
to empower people and look attheir positives and you know,
not always looking at what'swrong, but what's right two
(32:28):
podcasts episodes together.
Speaker 3 (32:29):
so I appreciate that, because I really think the
other part too is that if weonly see ourselves as faulty, we
will meet our expectationsthere, and I think that that's a
biggest big problem too, whenyou're not like really
empowering yourself, and that'swhat I think you're talking
about yeah, I think as a culture, as globally, we've outsourced
a lot of our own emotions andour own health in the hands of
(32:51):
other people and I think thatnow it's all about just starting
to reclaim those things forourselves, like, yes, there are
some specialists and things weneed to go out there for 100
percent, but we can also startto just be empowered within
ourselves to do certain thingsfor ourselves and reclaim those
parts of ourselves to createthat healing journey.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
I so agree, because you talk about the breath work
stuff.
I remind people that we aresuch a divided we're starting to
see more and more obviously inthe United States.
We see it on a political level,but I I've again the canadian
in me.
All follows the canadian stuff.
Uh, you see it in france rightnow, because you know, you know
(33:37):
they always call us the cousinsup in quebec, so um.
And you see it in the uk too,with even, you know, different
prime minister being put in andwhat people are leaning towards
left and right, and then itbecomes our identity.
And I think that what I tellpeople is that that's because
you want to give power to otherpeople, because my belief system
is not affected, whether Abbyagrees with me or not, we can
(33:59):
have a nice conversation aboutit, but it's not like if Abby
says, steve, you're wrong aboutthis, that my life ends.
I think you say you outsource alot of our emotions.
I think we've outsourced ourself-esteem to other people
based on who we like versus whowe are it's, um, it's also.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
I mean going a little bit into the depths here, if
that's okay this is your part Iwant to like.
I've enjoyed our conversation sofar, so go as deep as you want,
because I really enjoy whatyou're talking about and please
go ahead so it just brings tomind a quote from Cooley who
(34:40):
states that I am not who I thinkI am and I'm not who you think
I am.
I am who you think that I am.
So it's essentially like we seeourselves like as a perception
of a perception, like we'reoften looking for our own
identity through how we believeothers perceive us, and I think
(35:01):
that all these different healingmodalities and therapies out
there are really just trying tobring us back to ourselves and
start to just reclaim who we arefundamentally and our own
authenticity and theauthenticity is so important
that you know this is what Istrive for, both in my podcast
and in my life in general.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
Yeah, there's a little bit of showboating in
there in in this podcast in someways, but ultimately what I
feel like the breath work.
You talk about breath work.
I talk about my, my spirituallife.
I talk about a lot of differentthings.
I've learned not to fake me andbeing able to be myself.
Sometimes it's painful andmaybe it's not myself, maybe
it's a reaction to what theother person says, but that
(35:45):
authenticity I also remindmyself that you know I'm not
going to spoil it too much, butyou know we're recording this a
little in advance.
Who I am today may not be theperson once this podcast is
released and there's nothingwrong with that but once we feel
like we got to meet what peoplethink of who we are, oh, that's
(36:05):
who they think I am.
That's why's why I gotta be.
I think it just puts you in aplace where you lose your
authenticity, you lose yourselfand you can't connect to your
body because you're like, whothe hell is this?
Speaker 3 (36:16):
and I felt like that in the first responder space.
I felt like I lost myauthenticity because in roles
where there's such that sense ofbelonging, you need to belong
because your life depends on itin certain situations.
So when you have that need tobelong like you lose your
(36:36):
authenticity.
And it took me a long time.
I'm still on that path.
You know I'm getting betterwith it every day.
But yeah, I lost my ownauthenticity for a very long
time whilst I was in the policeand that was very painful.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
You know like it's something that I've shared, I
think, on the podcast and, if Ihaven't, I certainly shared it
with other people when I workedin the first responder world.
I was never a first responder,I'm not stealing anyone's game
here but I kind of lost myselfin that too, because I was in a
(37:16):
different position.
I started wanting to fit in andyou know the tough guy image
and this has always been thatway.
If you think, I shaved my headand I've been like this.
I had no hair when I was 15.
So this is not a look at, thisis who I am.
But the other part of personabecame so much more important
and you know, I went from astrong feminist to someone who
at times was not very nice.
(37:37):
And I think, at the end of theday, I think that that
environment does change you,because you feel like you need
to be accepted, because you knowyou're in a shady situation,
you need to know that someone'sbehind you to support you or to
do that.
And then you got to change alittle bit of who you are and I
hear that from especially womenin general, but I don't know
(37:58):
what you think.
Speaker 3 (37:59):
But yeah, I, I think that I see it a lot, but I would
say there's not a lot ofawareness around that and what I
found with I mean, I'm in, I'min a unique position that I
worked for two different policeforces and I had actually two
very different experiences.
So this, you know, the things Italk about mainly about
(38:19):
authenticity were in the firstforce I worked for.
But in the second force thatwas very, very different, like I
could be human there and therewere some really great people
and this wasn't really our playthere.
So it also comes to show thatit is who you're surrounded by
and the culture that's deeplyembedded, like when you go in it
(38:41):
isn't just across the board.
So therefore, it doesn't haveto be the case.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
It doesn't have to and it's got to be something
that more places accept it.
But I also know that you knowyou talk about again.
If you feel I'm putting downany type of place, I'm not, but
sometimes we fit the role thatwe need to survive in and I
think that sometimes when you'renot given an opportunity to be
(39:06):
yourself and I worked in a jailfor a few years too that's
definitely a place where Icouldn't be myself and my
humanity was fucking gone and Idon't want to.
I treat people who work in thecorrections field now and it
definitely something they alsoacknowledge because you got to
fit in in order to surviveessentially.
But I also think that if youhave that one or two people that
(39:30):
you can be that way, I think itchanges the dynamic also.
So your second place, beingmore yourself probably helped
your healing process.
If you, I'm not doing anytherapy, I'm just saying, just
observing here?
Speaker 3 (39:43):
yeah, well, I have.
I obviously have to say thatfor me, at the first force that
I worked for, I didn't have thetools and skills that I have now
.
I came to them because of thedisconnection I experienced in
the first working environment.
So therefore it highlighted allmy limitations through just
going along with it and it.
When I worked in the secondforce, I had already, you know,
(40:06):
been doing the breath work andyou mentioned, at the second
force I had already, you know,been doing the breath work and
you mentioned at the startwhether I'd had therapy before.
I have had coaching with acoach who's a trauma specialist,
so slightly different.
But yeah, so after that point,when I'd gone into the second
force, that was almost like thesecond chance.
It was the experience I alwaysthought I would have in the
(40:27):
police and the experience Ialways wanted around, the people
I thought I would be around andthey were a reflection of who I
was at that time.
But I maybe wouldn't have gotthere if I hadn't have had all
those limitations exposed in thefirst force and in this, the
first experience, and I maybewouldn't have appreciated it as
well.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
I would have maybe just taken that for granted so
you're saying that experience iswhat we all need in order to
grow.
Of course, yes, I think thatthat's the other part too.
We talk about somatic breathwork.
I remind people about also oh,I shouldn't have done this, or I
wish I didn't go through thisand I tell people that's, that's
the worst thing you could everdo for yourself, because that is
(41:07):
what is your experience andbrought you to this point.
You know people who work in thefirst responder world, the first
emergency responders, as youcall them.
What I've always found is thatthere's something in their past
that made them say I want tohelp other people.
And people always laugh at mebecause, no, they wanted to have
a gun.
Or in the UK they don't, but no, they wanted to have a gun, or
my, you know, in the UK theydon't, but no, they wanted to
(41:28):
help people.
That's essentially what peopledo in the first responder world.
And going back to the breathwork and all, I don't regret any
of my experiences.
In fact, losing my best friendat age 12 in a fire is probably
what formed me the best.
Do I wish my friend was here?
Yeah, I could use five minutesof a hug with him.
Obviously do.
I wish my friend was here.
(41:49):
Yeah, I could use five minutesof a hug with him, obviously,
but it's not going to happen,right?
But it helped me realize that Inever want anyone to be alone
with any struggles that theyhave, because blaming no one, I
was alone and I will never letanyone be alone in that that's
really profound and just sosorry that you went through such
a big traumatic bereavement soyoung.
Speaker 3 (42:10):
Those experiences, as you say, like they do go on to
shape us and form oftentimespart of our purpose in life.
And you're completely right inwhat you say, that we are drawn
to frontline work for a reason,and whether they're open and
transparent about that reason ornot, some people say, oh, it
(42:30):
was just something they fellinto or it was a family
tradition to be in the police.
But I actually know a lot ofpeople, a lot of police officers
, who've had really traumaticexperiences growing up and they
join the police force becausethey want to use the experiences
to help others or also just totouch on you know, something
(42:52):
that we were talking about evenright at the start of the
episode.
When we're talking about thefoot, do you damage your foot
because you're not able to standup for yourself?
Is it you going into the policeas some form of reenactment in
terms of am I able to protectthose parts of me when I was
younger that I couldn't stand upfor myself at that time?
But here I am.
(43:13):
I'm feeling empowered.
Maybe it's driven from fearsometimes.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
I agree and the quote negative emotions are not
negative, they're an indicationof something's wrong.
And I kind of remind peoplelike, oh, I don't want anxiety.
I'm like, well, you'll be deadwhen you have no anxiety.
So that doesn't exist.
Or I don't want to feel sadanymore.
Well, no, it's normal to feelsad, it's not.
You know, if you lose X, y, z Ilost my best friend but of
(43:40):
course you're going to have someemotions and I think that you
know.
You talk about the breath workand doing that somatic breath
work.
I think that what brought me tomy realization of my spiritual
life is just sitting with theuncomfortable feeling that I had
, and I think that that's alittle bit of the essence of
what you were saying earlier.
And I I want to get it back tosomatic breath, where I tell my
(44:02):
first responders you felt likecrap being in that scene, being
in this position, good, feellike crap being in that scene,
being in this position, good,feel like crap, come in here,
feel like crap.
And they're like really, andI'm like, yeah, because that's
what's going to get it out ofyou, because if you sit like
crap and you repress it, it'sgoing to break your foot and I'm
just making up the analogy wetalked earlier, but it's going
to break you somewhere else.
(44:23):
So, going back to the somaticbreath work and a little bit of
the stuff about negativeemotions, I really think it's a
good way to even work with firstresponders to kind of like get
them to embrace that hey, it'sokay to feel that way.
You want to come and cry in myoffice and you want to leave
with a smile?
That's great, but don't denythose quote negative emotions.
Speaker 3 (44:41):
Yeah for sure, and I think that comes down to this
misconception that we have thatresilience is not feeling
anything and being able to plowthrough every experience.
And this is really no.
That is like the completeopposite to resilience.
Is a resilient person somebodywho can't feel any emotions and
only has like one defaultemotion, and like they can't
(45:03):
express or love anymore or theycan't actually feel anger or
sadness?
Or is it someone who can gointo the depth of every single
emotion, feel it and be able tomove past it and hold it and sit
in it?
And it's the switch betweenthose two.
It isn't an easy path, but Iused to take the first one.
I used to think, right, well,if I just push this down, I
(45:24):
don't think about this grief, Idon't know how to deal with it,
I'll push it down and plowthrough.
But it came back to bite meyears down the line.
It took five plus years to dealwith that grief.
Speaker 2 (45:34):
And it takes a long time to get out of that mindset.
As you said, I didn't feelanything.
That's resiliency.
I'm proud of that.
Speaker 3 (45:47):
And it's hard to break that because you feel good
that you fought through, so tospeak.
And it was a lot harder tostart being able to sit with my
emotions.
But once I started to learn howto regulate my emotions and my
nervous system, I suppose it'smaybe not the emotions we fear,
it's the reactivity that we fear, because when we take away the,
when we have emotions, and wetake away the reactivity and the
(46:09):
sensitivity and we learn to sitwith them and regulate, that's
when we have resilience andthat's when we have authenticity
.
But if we again go back to thequote that I shared at the start
, if we suppress and repress, webecome numb and that's when
we're living a living death well, I'm I'm going to quote a
little bit of spirituality herebefore we uh, kind of like
(46:31):
getting close to wrapping uphere.
Speaker 2 (46:33):
But I go back to a statement.
I think it's a thich nhan hangquote what I resist persists,
and I remind people of that too,like, oh no, I don't have this,
I don't have that, and you knowyou're resisting it, but that's
okay.
But you're going to see thatit's going to persist even more
instead of letting it go.
Speaker 3 (46:49):
But that's a little bit of the breath work stuff
that we talked about too yeah,for sure it's that it's wanting
to come up and move through youbecause you don't want to hold
on to it anymore.
But almost, to do that, youhave to go through the lesson
and you have to go through thecycle.
A cycle has to end for a newone to begin.
Speaker 2 (47:08):
Well, I think that you have a lot to offer with
those cycles and thatinformation.
I know that you might be doingsharing some stuff with the
world in regards to that stuff,Can you tell me more about it?
Speaker 3 (47:20):
So, yes, I am currently offering breathwork
sessions.
I'm currently offeringbreathwork sessions, so I offer
one-to-one experiences, whichare great for those who are
maybe new to breathwork or verycurious or want to have a very
private experience, or that wecan do that in groups as well,
and it can be done online andthat's great if you have a group
(47:43):
of friends and you want to havea breathwork session together
and have an experience.
Sometimes it's it can give uspermission, when other people
are expressing to, to let go.
So there's beauty in both onehaving that personal private
experience or being around otherpeople.
It's that co-regulation sharedit.
Speaker 2 (48:03):
you know, environment shared expression so you know,
I'm just going to mention that Ido a group for first responders
and you know, a couple ofmonths ago someone really shared
a hard experience they wentthrough and then now everyone's
sharing their experience andeveryone's giving each other
space and you know, the commentI get all the time is like, oh,
(48:25):
I feel I can let go and just bemyself in here.
I think that that's what it is,the group experience.
I like the breath work stufffor that, because then you can
have other people around youhaving that same experience.
But I don't know.
That's kind of what I heard yousay yeah.
Speaker 3 (48:39):
Well, it sounds like you've created like a safe
container and it's yeah.
So people know when I'm in thisspace I'm safe and we need to
actually feel safety beforeanything else comes.
So we won't have an expressionor release within breathwork
until we have the safety.
That's fundamental.
So sometimes we just need towork on the safety element a
(49:00):
little bit longer.
But once it's there, onceyou've got that trust, that's
when you can relax and let go.
Speaker 2 (49:06):
It's fundamental well , how are we going to reach you
if we want one-on-one sessionsor even video sessions and, by
the way, I'm going to say itright now, I'm talking to my
first responders, who alwaysreport listening to this podcast
.
Look, someone who's been theredone that, has a few t-shirts
can really really help you.
So I want to make sure that youheard me say that.
(49:27):
So how do people reach you,abby?
Speaker 3 (49:30):
so at present I am on Instagram.
My Instagram is healingunderscore sorry, healing
underscore blue underscorehearts, so it's healing blue
hearts.
There is a link within my bioin there which will take you
through to book an onlinesession.
(49:50):
However, you can reach out tome via dm because if you are a
first responder, I will give youa special offer on the price of
a breathwork session well, Iappreciate that I've been not
being a first responder butworking with many of them for
several years.
Speaker 2 (50:06):
I thank you for that offer.
I it is well needed, so I'mgonna I'm making sure I'm gonna
put that in the show notes.
Healing blue hearts.
Make sure to dm you or click onthe link in there for it to
reach you.
Um, anything else you wouldlike to add?
Speaker 3 (50:21):
I know I think we have gone in all corners of all
things healing and frontlinework and breath work today.
So thank you very much for that.
It's been a really interestingconversation.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
I can't tell you how much I appreciate you.
I appreciate the service thatyou did for the community.
More importantly, I reallyappreciate the service you're
doing right now with the breathwork and the somatic breath work
, because I think that'ssomething that is not well
understood and is absolutelyneeded.
So thank you for that too.
Speaker 3 (50:51):
Thank you, appreciate it, and likewise, likewise for
your work supporting those onthe front line and creating safe
containers.
Speaker 2 (51:00):
Well, I appreciate that and I will talk to you soon
, hopefully.
Well, this concludes episode173.
Abby Westgate.
Thank you so much.
This was a great interview.
I hope you enjoyed it, becauseI certainly did, but episode 174
will be with something a littledifferent.
We talk a lot about firstresponder stuff here, but here's
someone who's going to tell ushow to work.
I read her book it's amazing,stephanie Cohen and she's going
(51:22):
to talk about how to overcomeher fear of dogs, and I hope you
join us then.
Speaker 1 (51:27):
Please like, subscribe and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful and, as a reminder, this
podcast is for informational,educational and entertainment
purposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(51:50):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
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