February 26, 2025 • 42 mins
What if you could heal trauma and emotional pain through movement? Join us as dance movement therapist Lisa Manca, alongside guest co-host Courtney Romanowski, unveils the transformative power of dance therapy. Lisa brings her expertise from forensic and psychiatric settings, offering unique insights into how movement can aid personal growth and healing. We tackle the challenges mental health professionals face in intense environments like prisons, revealing the unexpected benefits of dance therapy in helping individuals, including inmates, reconnect with their humanity amidst administrative hurdles.
Explore the profound connection between movement, therapy, and trauma as we discuss how specific movements can safely channel emotions and promote healing. Lisa shares how modifying posture and engaging in dance can influence emotional states, offering a therapeutic approach that sometimes surpasses verbal methods. Drawing on insights from literature like "The Body Remembers" and "The Body Keeps the Score," we delve into the neurobiological aspects of how the body retains memories and how dance therapy can facilitate emotional release and foster a sense of safety.
In our final segment, we explore the role of dance therapy workshops in workplace wellness, emphasizing the importance of maintaining personal boundaries and recognizing movement biases. Lisa and Courtney share personal anecdotes and professional challenges, shedding light on the misconceptions surrounding dance therapy, especially for young female clinicians. As we wrap up, we express our gratitude to our guests for their invaluable contributions and tease our next exciting topic on rebranding.
Reach Lisa at http://www.lisamanca.com or search for her with Somatic Therapy San Francisco
References:
American Dance Therapy Association
The Body Remembers by Babette Rothschild
The Body Keeps The Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Nichols, Ebony, "Moving Blind Spots: Cultural Bias in the Movement Repertoire of Dance/Movement Therapists" (2019). Expressive Therapies Capstone Theses. 150. https://digitalcommons.lesley.edu/expressive_theses/150
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hi and welcome to Finding your Way Through Therapy
.
A proud member of thePsychCraft Network, the goal of
this podcast is to demystifytherapy, what can happen in
therapy and the wide array ofconversations you can have in
and about therapy Throughpersonal experiences.
Guests will talk about therapy,their experiences with it and
(00:24):
how psychology and therapy arepresent in many places in their
lives, with lots of authenticityand a touch of humor.
Here is your host, steve Bisson.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Ah, vous êtes là.
Oh, there you are.
Welcome to episode 193.
If you haven't listened toepisode 192, it's with Jessica
Jameson.
We talked about movement aswell as nutrition instead of
fitness and exercise, so go backand listen to it.
We talked about food trauma too, which was really good.
But episode 193 is going to bewith Lisa Monka, with special
(00:59):
guest co-host a good friend,obviously.
You've heard her before on theshow, courtney Romanowski.
Happy to have her back.
I'm not going to go too long,but, yeah, always happy to have
Courtney.
Courtney is coming on becauseLisa is someone who is Lisa
Manka is a dance movementtherapist and uses other mental
health techniques.
She works with super smartprofessionals who feel numb
(01:19):
after pain and tragedy toreconnect with their bodies and
release the pain and feel goodagain.
She also explores the pain andfeel good again.
She also explores the feelingsand emotions about wanting to
run away or finding distractionin order not to address them.
I think we're going to have agreat interview.
Obviously, courtney will bethere, which is always cool for
me.
So here's the interview.
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(03:46):
Well, hi everyone, and welcometo episode 193.
Co-host Courtney Romanowski.
Hi, courtney, how are you?
Hello, so happy to have herback.
She didn't want to do thisepisode alone.
She wanted me here because Lisais so intimidating.
Lisa Monka, just like WillyWonka, as I was just told, is
here.
We met through Facebook and Ithought Courtney would be
(04:10):
perfect with the stuff that wewere going to talk about.
We're going to talk aboutmovement and which is very
important, and I know Courtneyhas talked about this on the
podcast before.
So, lisa, welcome to Findingyour Way.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
Hi.
Well, thank you for having metoday Appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
It's our pleasure.
I mean, you ran from a yogaclass to be here, so we really
appreciate it.
You know I came from a yogaclass called a session, but
anyway.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
It was yoga for someone else, huh.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
I was contorting my sentences, so that's how I see
it.
Maybe that's Pilates, maybe I'mgetting it all wrong, but you
know, I got to know you a littlebit before the interview.
We looked at your website andeverything else, but hey, I
wouldn't know more about you.
My audience doesn't know aboutyou, so tell us about yourself.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
Yeah.
So like Courtney, I did dancetherapy.
I'm a board certified dancetherapist and licensed
professional clinical counselorout here in San Francisco and
I've been working.
I don't even want to say howlong I've been working, but it's
almost 20 years now and Ireally enjoy using movement to
help us heal psychologically.
(05:15):
I've worked in forensicsettings so prison settings,
inpatient psych and then mostrecently in private practice.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Wow, I worked in forensic settings for many years
.
I still work with my firstresponders, so happy that you
have that experience.
It was my first experience outof school.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
And it's almost like you know where you think I'm 23,
I can do anything kind of thing, and then you find out oh, I
know I can't do everything, butthe experience was really good.
I learned how to set boundariesreally well.
I learned a lot as a firstexperience.
I just think that you know Iwouldn't go back in terms of
it's a lot.
It takes a lot out of you towork in those settings and I
(05:56):
appreciate the people that areable to make a career out of it.
Speaker 4 (05:59):
Who did you work with in those settings?
The?
Speaker 3 (06:02):
incarcerated.
I actually worked in inpatientpsych.
So here in California at thetime they had a psychiatric
hospital on prison grounds andit was inpatient psych, it was
intermediate psychiatric care.
And then we had another one ina different prison that was,
let's see, it was the more acutecare.
(06:22):
So one prison had the acutepsych hospital and then another
one had the intermediate psychand I worked in the intermediate
psych hospital and that was wegot clients from all over, or I
should say patients from allover.
So all of the prisons in themen's prisons in California sent
their psych patients over to us.
Speaker 4 (06:43):
And did you and I know we'll get into this a
little bit more as we aretalking but did you do dance,
movement therapy with them?
Speaker 3 (06:50):
I did.
Speaker 4 (06:50):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
I did and it was.
It was quite an experience,Like as a therapist, right, If
you get people to trust you Idon't want to say they'll do
anything, but you can lead themto a lot of different places and
I was really appreciative ofhow those men allowed me to to
enter their world and also tokind of followed me into.
Okay, we're going to do somemovement.
(07:12):
This is strange, this is notwhat we normally do in a prison
setting and I'm going to do itanyways.
And that was really great andthose men were so creative and
so smart and the system was whatwore me down, as it wears down
everyone, but the actualpatients were really wonderful.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
Yeah, wow, yeah.
What a getting thrown rightinto the professional world
right out of school.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
Great, didn't know, didn't know.
Better, right, I can do it.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
That was one of my first jobs too, actually in the
county jail out here.
So when I got my master's,they're like great, you can do
all the evals for suicidewatches.
It was great.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
That's not heavy at all.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Not a size, pretty easy stuff.
But I remember people say whydidn't you like working in jails
?
I said actually the inmatesweren't that bad.
What was really bad is workingwith the administration.
And he said, actually theinmates weren't that bad.
What was really bad is workingwith the administration.
And what you talked about,those pressures, was unreal.
I joked around that they calledme for an extraction.
(08:13):
They have to bring in thetherapist to do an eval.
Sorry if I'm taking over for asecond, but I thought you didn't
know, the story.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
No, it's good to hear fellow therapists that have had
the experience.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Yeah.
So they call me up, they gocome on in quickly, we need the
evaluation, okay.
So I get to the second door,they make me wait and wait and
then the guy who's doing the andagain nothing against janitors,
literally the janitor who's notan inmate, it's an employee of
the state comes in.
He says I gotta come in.
You they let him in, but not me.
Like you gotta wait.
So I always told people likemental health was right below
(08:46):
the bucket of slush in that jail.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
Sure.
Speaker 4 (08:49):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
So I think that it's hard because a lot of our and we
can get on systems, I can go onsystems forever but a lot of
our mental health care, even onthe county level right, has
shifted towards oh, we're goingto throw a charge at this person
and then they're going to getthe care in the jails or in the
prison systems.
So consequently, as you mayknow, the jails and the prisons
(09:15):
are doing services they werenever set up to do right.
And then we're also it's justsuch a juxtaposition and maybe
it feels like a little bitoxymoronic where you're trying
to help people heal and then,once they heal, you send them
back out to the environmentwhere they got sick, and that
was really tough.
For me it's like okay, we gotyou stabilized, now we're going
to throw you back to the prisonwhere you were.
(09:37):
Before that you were kind ofunstable and it was really tough
that part of it was reallyreally hard.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
The community which it was really tough.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
That part of it was really really hard for the
community, which is alsounstable, which caused you to be
here in the first place, right,right, so that that's always
like heartbreaking because itwas like I never worried about
them.
You know, like you know, inprivate practice there's
constantly the thing of like,okay, is this person stable
enough?
It's on me as a mental healthprovider to make sure that
they're stable in the community,that they don't need a higher
(10:07):
level of care.
I never worried these guys hadthe highest level of care.
Like it was the most inpatientof inpatients.
Like but, on the other hand, itwas like they're being released
into environments that made themsick.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
I want to know a little bit more because you know
for some people some peopledon't know about dance, dance
therapy, but you being bringingup dance therapy in jail, that
must have also helped with someof the psychological trauma some
of these people unfortunatelygo through.
Uh, can you tell us a littlemore about all that?
Or?
Speaker 3 (10:33):
yeah, yeah.
So I want to be cautious, notto like um, I'll speak in
generalities, right, because wewant to make sure, like I can't
give individual cases, but Ithink in general, when people go
to prison, and especially men,there's an emphasis on bulking
up or you know certain kinds ofmovement, and I think dance
therapy allows people to besofter and exercise these parts
(10:55):
of themselves which, if youthink about a prison setting,
you're constantly like one,you're always watching your back
, right.
So there's like this sixthsense of what's behind me,
what's going on.
One you're always watching yourback, right?
So there's like this sixthsense of what's behind me,
what's going on.
And then there's also just theyou need to look tough, you
don't want to look like a target, all of these things, and I
think that cuts people off fromtheir humanity in a way.
If you only move in a certainway, that becomes your identity,
(11:17):
and I think if your identity isI don't want to be a target you
cut yourself off from a lot.
If your identity is.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
I don't want to be a target.
You cut yourself off from a lotand I think it's also takes you
like literally.
I think that humanity is lostnot only on inmates, but I think
even for ourselves.
When we work in thatenvironment, we almost lose our
humanity.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
Absolutely, and I think, being very young in that
environment, there was a lot offocus on well, and also dance
therapy.
Everyone thought it wasscandalous.
It was also like what I lookedlike, what I was doing oh my god
, they're moving their hips, youknow like and it just felt the
lack of education around whatdance therapy was and what it
(11:55):
brought, as well as the scrutinythat you get being a young
clinician and a young female inthe prison setting quite a bit.
So I think that you know mysolution.
My solution was okay, I'mwearing a 2XL hoodie over
whatever I put on.
Nobody's complaining about whatI'm wearing because I have
basically like a muumuu orsomething over me at all times
because I don't want that kindof attention, and but it does.
(12:18):
Even that is like.
You can't appear as yourself,right?
You're appearing as a version.
That is like can you dress down?
Pretend you're not a female,pretend you're not attractive.
If you're attractive, pretendall these things in order to fit
into a very stifling setting.
Speaker 4 (12:37):
So I've had this conversation a few times with
folks, both off camera and forthe podcast.
I've been honored to be able tointerview a couple other dance
therapists and we are in thisprofession that, if you don't
know what it is, the words cansound very loaded Dance movement
therapy, Like okay.
So if I don't know what thosethings are, what am I walking
(13:00):
into?
So like when you walked, whenyou had this first job, and
you're like, well, I'm going todo dance movement therapy with
you guys, what did that looklike?
Speaker 3 (13:09):
So we went from we'll get a little technical here,
but I'll explain.
So we went from a model whichis a group model, right?
So I think since the beginningof time, human beings have got
together in a circle and dancedor listened to music or been
around a fire or and you know,we don't want to say that dance
(13:29):
therapist invented that, becausethat would be just wrong.
So, the idea of a circle so youcan see everyone in the group,
we usually do some kind ofmovement warm-up and, as you
know, courtney, as a dancetherapist, the dance part of it
I like to explain, it is notwe're teaching a certain dance,
not we're doing a certain dance,it's the dance therapist has a
(13:50):
training to observe movement,right, you want to be able to
see what's happening, to put themovement in their body.
That's the other part and thento think of what would an
appropriate movementintervention may be.
So would you like an example?
I don't know if people giveexamples on this podcast I think
it's important, and I mean you.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
I think that what you got my my audience, who is
actually very open and have hadhigh hopes when they had
courtney and talk about dancemovement therapy.
But I also work with a lot offirst responders who go what the
hell is that?
So maybe it would be helpful tohave some examples.
Sorry to jump in here, coy.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
So I have to give, well, a couple of examples.
So, like in the prison safe, Ihad someone who was like
directing energy and was likepunching forward I'm doing a
punching motion.
For those of you that can't seeme, that might not be an energy
I would want then, or amovement I would want directed
at other people.
As a dance therapist, in myhead one, I have to keep moving.
If I stop moving, my groupfalls apart a lot of the time,
(14:48):
especially if you have morepsychotic people that aren't
going to do it on their ownright.
They're just like oh, you stopmoving, everyone stops moving,
Classic.
Try and do it sometime.
If you go to a dance class,watch the dance, the instructor
stops moving and everyone willstop.
I have to keep moving and haveto keep doing the movement.
But maybe I would modify it.
Maybe I would like have thempunch downwards, right, so that
(15:10):
the energy is not directedtowards another person, but they
still want to get maybe thataggressive energy out and
instead of saying no, no,punching is bad, how can I make
a movement intervention thatwould work well for the person
to, you know, release ordischarge some of that without,
you know, harming someone else?
Another example I like to giveis you know, when you're
(15:32):
depressed right, let's all dothis for a second actually so
take like a fist to your chestand imagine just someone
punching you in, like so yeah,and then just sit like that for
a moment and notice like howdoes it feel?
Like, can you do a lot ofmovement there?
Speaker 4 (15:48):
You can't even do a lot of breathing there.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
Right, you can't do a lot of breathing, right, shake
it off, take it out, whateveryou need to do.
But from that place right Ithink of people with depression,
I see that a lot and I saw thata lot in hospitals Like that
would be maybe a movementcharacteristic, I would see, or
a movement posture, a bodyposture, and from there we want
to not just like bust them outof it because that would be too
(16:12):
much.
We there, we want to not justlike bust them out of it because
that would be too much.
We can't just impose acompletely different movement on
it.
It would be a really roughtransition but we can start to
think of subtle ways we can getthem to change their body
movement and change how theyfeel.
Right, and I love this examplebecause almost immediately you
can feel like, oh gosh, thisdoesn't feel good, right.
(16:32):
And now, if you take that sameposture and if it were a dance
therapy class where I was tryingto get people to learn about
dance therapy, I'd have themwalk around and be like what's
the experience of walking aroundlike that?
So by changing how we move, wechange how we feel and that
changes our thoughts as well.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
I really like that and you know you're educating me
.
Like I said, I'm veryinterested in this stuff, so
really enjoy it.
But you know, one of the thingsthat we talked about you know a
little earlier and you we'vetalked about pre interview is
you know, I really don't knowthe relationship of dance,
movement, therapy and trauma.
I mean, to me it seems likeapples and celery, frankly.
(17:11):
So I like I'm not playing dumb,I promise I really don't know.
So please help me out herebecause I want to understand it,
because I believe in it.
Don't get me wrong, I justdon't understand it.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
Right.
So there's been a lot moreresearch over the years.
I think what dance therapistshave known all along is that the
body keeps kind of records ofwhat has happened to us
throughout life, whether it'sphysical or psychological, right
?
I actually did my my thesis onthe body image of rape survivors
and I was very curious as toyou know, if I'm having you move
(17:47):
your body, does that elicit thefeelings or the trauma or what
happens?
Right?
And for the most part that wasnot the case.
It was like, okay, when I'mmoving like this, it just
reminds me of an exercise class,right?
So the generic dance movementtherapy warmup did not get into
the trauma.
But you could find the specifictrigger, like body trigger, if
(18:09):
the person was able to tell youor let you know when their body
started to respond in a certainway.
It might have been a phrasethat somebody said when an
assault happened.
It could have been a, you know,a certain type of pressure or
contact that could cause that.
So the body keeps that memoryof the assault that happened and
(18:31):
by working with the body we canrelease it a lot better than
the verbal, like talking, right,and then a couple of resources.
So there's a book called theBody Remembers by Babette
Rothschild.
That's a great book, that's aresource.
And then Bessel van der Kolk'sbook, the Body Keeps the Score,
which has gained popularity overthe past 10 years, I would say,
(18:52):
or past eight years.
And those talk about, like, theunderpinnings, the
neurobiological, all thoseunderpinnings of why dance
therapy is effective.
And I think it's good to noticethat, like our hippocampus,
that part of the brain that laysdown when this thing happened,
kind of goes offline whenthere's a ton of cortisol.
(19:14):
So in that case and you knowI'm not a, I'm not huge on
neuroanatomy, so forgive me if Idon't get it exactly right
You're not able to tell ifsomething is happening in the
past or happening right now.
So that's accounts for yourPTSD and people getting flooded
when they hear a certain noiseor a certain sensation happens,
(19:36):
and that I think using the bodyto lay more context or to find a
feeling of safety is wheredance therapy really excels.
And again, it's not dance perse, it's more pedestrian body
movement walking around.
Where do you feel that in yourbody?
What would you like to do withthis feeling, like all of these
things walking people through?
(19:57):
That was a very succinctexplanation, but I hope it got
to where you were going.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (20:02):
no, I thought it was really wonderful, yeah, and now,
of course, I forgot where I wasgoing.
Oh, I think you were talkingearlier about the role as the
dance movement therapist.
A lot of our quote unquote jobis to witness, right and to, you
know, feel in our bodies, atleast my interpretation of what
I do, feel in my body, what I'mwitnessing, so that if the
(20:26):
patient, the client, the personmaybe doesn't recognize it yet,
that I can somehow, you know,this is what I'm feeling in my
body when I see you sitting back, you know, slumped over I don't
know, just kind of like yes, somaking that connection for them
.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
Yeah, we're using our body as a source of information
, right.
As a therapist and it dependshow finely tuned you get.
Like I have gotten to the pointyou know less so over online
stuff.
But sometimes people would walkin and I would be like I am
angry and I'm like I wasn'tangry two minutes ago.
And then like I don't know if,as a therapist, you've ever had
this happen.
You're like I'm angry, what'shappening?
(21:03):
And then, two minutes into theconversation, the client's like
I'm really upset, frustratedabout blah, blah, blah.
And I'm like, oh, I picked upthis thing.
Yeah, that's a very subtleexample, but I think we use our
bodies as a way to empathize,right, if we think about mirror
neurons, the same neurons firewhen we witness something, like
(21:25):
when we watch someone's movement, as when we do the movement
ourselves.
Like I watch you throwing abaseball, courtney, and it's
like this I'm throwing abaseball, but but, the other
part of it is, if you can getinto your body which dance
therapists can, and kind ofreplicate movement and mirror
movement, then we get anotherlike, I would say, a kinesthetic
(21:45):
, like a bodily empathy thatmaybe you know other therapists
have less access to.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
Well, I certainly don't have access to that.
So it's always good to hearthat what it does, because,
again, it's not ignorance onpurpose, it's I don't know.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
I think you know, and it's okay to not know.
I appreciate like when peoplewant to like to be very frank
with you.
When I got into the field, itwas.
I was like there's art therapyin the world, there to be very
frank with you.
When I got into the field, itwas.
I was like there's art therapyin the world, there's music
therapy.
There must be dance therapy,right?
So I typed it into Google.
(22:23):
And that's how I found my futureprofession.
So I found the American DanceTherapy Association.
I was like I still don't knowwhat this is but I'm going to
apply for grad school and thattells you a little bit about my
personality, where this is a bigwhim and that tells you a
little bit about my personality,where this is a big whim and
I'm going to go for it and Iended up loving it.
But even truly like up until thefirst semester, I'm like I'm
not exactly sure how dancetherapy works and it also feels
(22:43):
like it's a little bit nebulousor a little hazy, right, because
you know we like reallyconcrete things, but dance as an
art form isn't concrete.
We're watching something, we'removing.
It's not like I produced apiece of music or a piece of art
and I think that's also alittle bit of the part that gets
(23:03):
hard to translate is, hey, thismovement thing, yeah, I get
that it helps, but what's theconcrete thing that I see and
that can be hard to define orexplain?
I feel like over time I'vegotten a lot better vocabulary
and I've gotten so used to goingbetween, you know,
psychological language and thedance therapy language that I
(23:26):
can give a pretty goodrepresentation.
That takes time too.
Speaker 4 (23:29):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And then you know when you'repartnering dance movement
therapy with trauma work.
You know from my experiences,you know trauma is hazy in
itself as well, for each person.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
So yeah, and I think you know the words I use with
you guys.
You're therapists, right, butI'm not going to go to a client
necessarily and be like we'reworking on your hippocampus and
laying down new memories andyeah, it's too much.
It's too much.
It's like slow down, breathe.
What are you feeling?
Where do you feel that?
Like just getting themconnected, and it's a lot softer
(24:05):
and it's a lot lessintellectual than how we're
talking about it right thismoment and I think that that's
the other part too is when youdeal with a lot of trauma and
dance therapy stuff.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
I mean, for me, you know, one of my first visits to
my therapist was because oftrauma stuff that went on in my
life, and one of the standardquestions here on our podcast is
to ask if someone's been intherapy before.
So, lisa, have you ever been intherapy yourself?
Speaker 3 (24:28):
Absolutely so.
I've been in therapy for manyyears.
Most recently I've done moreattachment work and I think that
has been helpful, you know.
So I found Diane Poole Heller'swork and we could talk a little
bit more about her work.
But she did somaticexperiencing with Peter Levine
(24:48):
for many years and then she kindof branched off and did you
know, attachment work, helpingadults repattern their
attachment, like even today.
If you go read psychology todayand it's like you have an
anxious attachment and you readabout anxious attachment, it's
like you're screwed.
Studies say that you can't fixthis.
Sorry, your mom or dad wasinattentive.
(25:10):
Sorry, your mom or dad wasinattentive or very in flux with
how they were as a caregiver,and that's not very hopeful.
Nor is it true.
But I guarantee you you can goread it and it's like, well, 30
percent or some 30 percent ofanxious attached people can't
find someone or like you findall this stuff.
But um, Diane's work is reallyhopeful and it talks a lot about
(25:32):
how you can move towards secureattachment, and all of us want
to move towards secureattachment.
Our attachment adaptations arethere because that was the
smartest way we could figure outas a baby, as a child, to get
our needs met.
And once we feel secure, wewill not need and not secure,
(25:54):
completely secure.
But when we move towards secure, we will not need that same,
those same adaptations, thosesame behaviors that you see that
we thought, hey, this worked inthe past when I was really
little.
I need to keep doing this inorder to get the attention Well,
I like that and you're right.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
I mean, well, I don't read the internet too much
because pop psychology hasreally ruined our field, if you
ask me, because everyone'snarcissistic and everyone's
neurodivergent and everyone is,and I'm done with that stuff.
But that's just my podcast.
I can say whatever I want.
But you talked a little bit ofthe attachment stuff and I know
one of the things we talkedpre-interview is we talked about
(26:32):
dynamic attachment,repatterning, repatterning sorry
second language.
Can you tell me more about that?
Speaker 3 (26:44):
Because I don't even know what that is, frankly.
Yeah, so that's DianePohlheller's system for working
with adult attachment, right?
So say somebody comes to youand they're like I'm having so
much trouble in dating, I know,I get really anxious, I can't
tell, like I'm just want thisperson to like me so badly.
But I don't know how I feelwhen another person enters the
picture.
I get really fixated on them,right?
That sounds like someone withan anxious attachment style or,
(27:06):
and it might even be I'm stillusing pretty psych terms so it
might even be more like I cannever get a relationship that
feels like it's working.
Or I go on all these dates,what am I doing wrong?
And if we can kind of look atthose things and how to help
this person feel so, withanxious attachment, the work is
(27:26):
going to be to keep a sense ofyourself Again, be a body,
bodily sensations being engagedin the body.
When there are other peoplepresent, somebody with more
avoidant attachment, it might belike, hey, you actually might
need people.
You know you can't just be overhere.
You're a lone wolf self and tryand date.
That doesn't work, right, canyou learn to you know, tolerate
(27:49):
and eventually enjoy thepresence of others and find it.
You know it's not a scary place, you don't have to rely just on
yourself all the time.
But she has specific work thatreally engages people and kind
of repatterns the nervous systemand that way of going towards
or away or coping when inrelationship.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
Yeah, I've always had trouble understanding the whole
attachment thing too, and whenI remember, even in class when
we would read about it, itsounded so like oh my God, how
am I going to help anyone withthese type of patterns of
attachment?
So I appreciate thisexplanation.
It makes a whole lot of senseto me, thank you.
Speaker 3 (28:28):
Well, everyone has an attachment, adaptation right,
and we all have pockets of eachone.
Speaker 4 (28:33):
Not you, not you.
Steve is special.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
That's what my mom says.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
anyway, you're the exception that proves who Got it
Got it.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
So, and we all have pockets right.
If somebody gets in arelationship where the other
person is super anxious, theymight end up being the avoidant
one and they're like wait, wait,I never play this role, you
know, and we have pockets ofsecure and sometimes it's easier
for people to find secureattachment in friendship or even
you know, like helping someonefeel bodily what a secure
(29:02):
attachment feels like.
That's such powerful work, right, even if it's like my dog.
I feel securely attached to mydog and somebody might be
skeptical but it's like no, youcan bring up those feelings and
then what you, once you knowwhat that is in your body, you
can look for it in other placesand at least you have the tools
to recognize it.
But I agree like this theywould say things like when
(29:25):
you're in school, right, and belike well, you, uh, you know,
just the having the safetherapeutic presence is gonna to
help with attachment, and itdoes to a degree.
But it's good to have an actualsystem and actual way of
engaging that helps peopleaddress that.
Speaker 4 (29:42):
So interesting.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
Yeah, I mean I, I, you know.
All I can think of is when Italk about attachment with my
clients and I'm not.
Again, you talk about neuro,neuropsychology and everything
else.
I talk about creating newpatterns in your brain so you
can get to that point.
And yes, it takes time and it'smessy, and all that because the
hardest part about attachmentand getting used to it is to
(30:04):
know that if you want it tohappen overnight, I always tell
people I'm not your guy so Ican't do it.
You want some work and you wantto do it and it's going to be
hard, then do it and that's howyour neural pathways start
changing, because we haveneuroplasticity, and that way
you can change from yourmidbrain, your monkey brain,
whatever you want to call it,and reacting that way to more of
a cerebral cortex reaction sothat it can create a better for
(30:29):
lack of a better word secureattachment.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
Right, and I think that's the part that's really
like.
You know, my dance therapytraining and then like the
somatic experiencing and thenjust being in the body, right,
if you can get a sense of safety, then the prefrontal cortex
comes back online.
That's cerebral like oh, I canthink about this now, but before
then it's just like there's alizard running the show back
(30:53):
there.
You know, your little lizardbrain is running the show and
it's really hard.
So I think that's one of thebeauties is getting people
embodied really does help workwith trauma, whether it's
developmental trauma and theattachment work, or whether it's
developmental trauma and theattachment work, or whether it's
other kinds of psychologicaltrauma, and using dance therapy,
you know, having conversationslike this, um always, you know,
(31:15):
makes me feel like how could,how could we not use dance,
movement therapy for trauma?
Speaker 4 (31:20):
because, like, yeah, it's, it's all in the body, it
is?
Speaker 3 (31:24):
and I think what's um , you know how we talked about a
little bit earlier, about howyou know movement right, as
therapists, we have our owntools as dance therapists, our
felt sense like, oh, when I didwhat this client did, this is
what I felt and I'm going togive that and reflect it back to
them.
I think one of the interestingparts and I want to bring this
(31:46):
up is, just as dance therapists,we have to look at where our
movement bias is to what feelsgood, just like as therapists in
the field, right?
You asked if I went to therapy.
Yes, absolutely I went totherapy, because if I didn't, we
would, you know, I wouldn'tknow where the things are that
trigger me, and when somebody'stalking about something, all of
a sudden I'm like why do I feellike crying?
(32:13):
you know, nobody wants to bebombarded with that, and I think
there's some really great workI think it's ebony mitchell has
done some work I might be wrongon the name about dance
therapist movement bias, andthey've created a group called
black magic.
And especially this, um, youknow being black history month
and also, like with currentpolitical climate, I think it's
good to.
Um, you know being blackhistory month and also, like
with current political climate,I think it's good to highlight,
you know, bipoc work, orespecially in our field, um, and
(32:35):
just if I may, and to make itreally simple, right.
So say, I, as a white woman,have only done ballet, jazz and
tap all my life.
And then I'm like I'm gonna gointo this place with a different
ethnicity and differentcultural background and, oh my
god, they're moving their hips.
Salsa feels very sexual to me,oh my god.
(32:57):
Right, so there's somethingwhere we have to acknowledge our
own bias towards.
Oh, this is how I, when Iobserve this kind of movement,
this is how I interpret it,that's my bias and also in my
body, I like to move a certainway and when my client does this
movement, I want to move awayfrom it, not because there's
(33:17):
anything wrong with what myclient's movement is, but I have
a preference for something else.
So I think it's just importantto to mention that like, yeah,
how could we not be using dancemovement therapy?
And also there's some littleblind spots here and there that
as a as a professional, we'reworking on and hopefully are
thoughtful about.
(33:37):
Like, okay, you know, I'venever moved in this kind of way.
Can I get curious and maybepart of us as dance therapists,
not just getting dance therapyor getting therapy is going out,
and us as dance therapists, notjust getting dance therapy or
getting therapy is going out andtaking a dance class that makes
us move differently thatenriches our movement repertoire
so that whoever comes in,you're not like I've never tried
(33:58):
to move like that.
Oh, this is awkward.
And then you get lost in yourown awkwardness and aren't
present with the client.
Speaker 4 (34:04):
Does that make sense?
Makes a lot of sense, steve, doyou get that?
Speaker 2 (34:09):
I got it.
I mean you talked about earlierlike you said, I stayed curious
around these things because thewhite male bias doesn't need to
always be there and certainlygetting to know and be curious
and learning stuff.
And yes, you talked aboutpolitical climate and all that.
I think that once in a while asyou know, we're three Caucasian
(34:31):
people here we need to be ableto challenge our thought process
and be able to look at thingsdifferently, because we don't
have all the answers andunfortunately, for the longest
time, that's how that wasperceived.
Speaker 3 (34:41):
So and we have a great deal of power as
therapists.
Like we don't talk about itexplicitly as much, but that's
why all the rules are in place,that's why the confidentiality
is in place, that's why, likethe very obvious rule, but like
people obviously weren't doingit Like, don't sleep with your
clients, don't be friends withyour clients, because it muddies
(35:02):
things up, right.
That's why these things are inplace, because we do have a
great deal of power and andknowing how we wield that power
especially if we're of adifferent skin color or you know
a different gender then our,our clients, is really important
to know and I think it's allimportant stuff.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
and I mean, you know, like when you thought, when you
said peter levin and I know himand I've seen him speak and
he's quite interesting person,so when you talk about the body,
remembers, I can't remember theauthor that you mentioned.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
So Babette Rothschild , and then the body keeps.
The score is Bessel yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
I met Bessel too, and that's not appropriate for this
podcast for me to talk about myexperience with him, but he
wrote an excellent book.
I'll say that.
Speaker 3 (35:44):
Yeah, isn't that kind of how we have to look at some
of these things with nuance,right?
This person wrote an excellentbook.
I've had X, y, z experience andI you know that I have to like
leave this out of it.
You know, and I think it's goodto to be willing to not say
this is either.
This person is either good orbad.
(36:04):
We can take the book and theother parts maybe we need to
leave because we have feelingsabout them or how they presented
themselves.
Wasn't what we're in alignmentwith, right?
Oh, I wanted to correct myself.
I think I talked about thedance therapist movement bias.
It's actually Ebony Nichols.
I want to make sure I get hername right, because I don't want
(36:25):
to screw that up.
Speaker 4 (36:26):
Yeah, I was searching for the name in my brain.
Speaker 3 (36:29):
Yeah, I was like Mitchell, but that's not correct
and I want to make sure I gotthe right name, especially for
her.
Speaker 4 (36:34):
Thank you, Lisa.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Well, I was really frustrated.
Thank you very much for fixingit.
Speaker 3 (36:39):
Yeah, I know, I know you probably knew all the dance
therapist names.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
I secretly, do I secretly?
Speaker 3 (36:44):
do?
I secretly looked them up onthe side, got your Google out.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
I don't have my Google on the other side.
I've been just fact checkingyou since the beginning.
Well, you know, it would beinteresting to hear more about
what you know like.
I know that we all do things astherapists that are pretty
unique and I like to showcasethat when we do my, we do our
podcast.
Can you tell me more about thestuff that you're putting out in
the world right now?
Speaker 3 (37:09):
Yeah, so I actually have my private practice and you
can find that under my nameit's lisamoncacom.
And then I have also I'mstarting to do workshops for
schools, like dance therapyworkshops, and for institutions,
like companies, and I thinkit's great for, like, a wellness
perspective and especially ifthey're looking for ways to get
(37:33):
their employees embodied andfeeling better and work on
workplace retention.
That's another thing.
Like you have to have employeesthat recognize when they're
burnt out, but if they're notaware of their bodies, they're
not going to recognize that.
So I'm doing more dance therapyworkshops than ever and
obviously when we do a dancetherapy workshop, it's not
therapy per se.
(37:54):
We're using dance therapytechniques, but it doesn't count
as therapy because you don'twant to have therapy with Joanne
from HR and then go back andthat would be really awkward.
So it's more of a wellnessapproach than anything, right,
that would be very awkward.
It's like oh, I know all aboutJoanne's stuff now.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
Let me tell you, and you're like, we don't want those
dynamics in the workplace.
Speaker 3 (38:18):
We want to keep people's privacy, so it's using
dance therapy techniques.
I call them dance therapyworkshops, but for different
companies and schools, and I'vereally been appreciating doing
that.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
Great, and how would we reach you for any of these
things?
Speaker 3 (38:34):
My website's probably the best, so lisamoncacom, and
my last name is spelled M, as inMary A, and it's a Nancy C, as
in Charlie A.
Speaker 4 (38:44):
Perfect.
It's a great website.
Speaker 3 (38:45):
I checked it out, oh good, good, I'm glad you like
I've been blogging.
Oh my gosh, so much blogginggood for you my blogs.
Be like one of the three people.
It will make you very happy,but no, I I didn't read the
blogs.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
I'll be honest.
I did see your website quicklyand I thought it was really good
and it's awesome that you'reputting that stuff out there.
I think the hardest part is torealize that.
You know, I had thisconversation with another
therapist recently.
I'm not in competition with anytherapist in this career, in
this world, because we all havedifferent gifts that we can
bring, and you know, trulythat's what I appreciate of all
(39:21):
the therapists and I reallyappreciate what you do.
Speaker 3 (39:24):
Thank you, yeah, and I think likewise it's always
good to have the mindset of, Ithink, maybe where you can tell
a younger therapist from anolder therapist older therapist
is like I'm not for you, that'sokay.
Right and letting clients go,and I appreciate that you guys
doing therapy podcasts andespecially in a thoughtful way,
because you know we got so muchstuff, we got TikTok, we got
(39:45):
Insta.
You know we got so much stuff,we got TikTok, we got Insta.
You know like everyone'sspouting psychological knowledge
and it's good to have sourcesfor people to go to that are
actually, you know, thoughtfuland trying to get experts and
you know being smart about whoyou're putting on and I really
appreciate that.
So thank you.
(40:07):
Well, probably one of the firsttimes this year I've been called
smart, so thank you.
I appreciate that always.
You know it's january, that'spretty good hey, february is
february oh february.
Sorry you missed january.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
Maybe next month too and I'll break a wall for my, my
audience, for a second.
We are actually it's going tobe released in February and we
are like oh yeah, in.
February.
So I'm breaking a wall here.
I just want oh before the wallwent down.
Okay, when we're done with theinterview, I'm going to do a an
(40:39):
orientation test with youbecause I'm very concerned right
now and for all our therapistfriends.
Listening to this, I know.
Speaker 3 (40:42):
I know my name is still Lisa, though I got it.
No, you pick.
I know my name's still Lisa,though I got it.
Whatever month it is, no youpick, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
On that happy note, I need to look at how we get us I
don't know how it works in SanFrancisco and call the
authorities to get hospitalized.
But otherwise you can go to ourwebsite.
She'll be available there.
Speaker 3 (41:01):
Okay, thank you.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
But, lisa, thank you.
I really appreciate Courtney,always good.
Speaker 4 (41:08):
Yeah, loved being on again, lisa, it was wonderful
meeting you.
Speaker 3 (41:10):
Yeah, you too take care well, that completes
episode 193.
Speaker 2 (41:14):
Courtney romanowski again, just a great co-host,
thank you.
More importantly, lisa monka.
Thank you so much.
I hope you go check her out.
Um, lisa monkacom.
I'll put in the show notes andit was a great interview.
I hope you guys enjoyed it andI'll see you for the next
episode where we're going totalk about the rebranding.
Speaker 1 (41:33):
Please like, subscribe and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful and, as a reminder, this
podcast is for informational,educational and entertainment
purposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(41:55):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
Hi and welcome to Finding your Way Through Therapy
.
A proud member of thePsychCraft Network, the goal of
this podcast is to demystifytherapy, what can happen in
therapy and the wide array ofconversations you can have in
and about therapy Throughpersonal experiences.
Guests will talk about therapy,their experiences with it and
(00:24):
how psychology and therapy arepresent in many places in their
lives, with lots of authenticityand a touch of humor.
Here is your host, steve Bisson.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Ah, vous êtes là.
Oh, there you are.
Welcome to episode 193.
If you haven't listened toepisode 192, it's with Jessica
Jameson.
We talked about movement aswell as nutrition instead of
fitness and exercise, so go backand listen to it.
We talked about food trauma too, which was really good.
But episode 193 is going to bewith Lisa Monka, with special
(00:59):
guest co-host a good friend,obviously.
You've heard her before on theshow, courtney Romanowski.
Happy to have her back.
I'm not going to go too long,but, yeah, always happy to have
Courtney.
Courtney is coming on becauseLisa is someone who is Lisa
Manka is a dance movementtherapist and uses other mental
health techniques.
She works with super smartprofessionals who feel numb
(01:19):
after pain and tragedy toreconnect with their bodies and
release the pain and feel goodagain.
She also explores the pain andfeel good again.
She also explores the feelingsand emotions about wanting to
run away or finding distractionin order not to address them.
I think we're going to have agreat interview.
Obviously, courtney will bethere, which is always cool for
me.
So here's the interview.
(01:51):
Get freeai yes, you've heard metalk about it previously in
other episodes, but I'm going totalk about it again because get
freeai is just a great service.
Imagine being able to payattention to your clients all
the time instead of writingnotes and making sure that the
note's going to sound good andhow are you going to write that
note, and things like that.
Getfreeai liberates you frommaking sure that you're writing
what the client is saying,because it is keeping track of
(02:14):
what you're saying and willcreate, after the end of every
session, a progress note.
But it goes above and beyondthat.
Not only does it create aprogress note, it also gives you
suggestions for goals, givesyou even a mental status if
you've asked questions aroundthat, as well as being able to
write a letter for your clientto know what you talked about.
So that's the great, greatthing.
(02:36):
It saves me time, it saves me alot of aggravation and it just
speeds up the progress noteprocess so well.
And for $99 a month.
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That's worth my time, that'sworth my money.
You know.
The best part of it too is thatif you want to go and put in
(02:56):
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(03:18):
get 10% off, get free fromwriting notes, get free from
always scribbling while you'retalking to a client and just
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So they win out, you win out,everybody wins, and I think that
this is the greatest thing.
And if you're up to a pointwhere you got to change a
treatment plan, well, the goalsare generated for you.
So getfreeai code Steve50 tosave $50 on your first month.
(03:46):
Well, hi everyone, and welcometo episode 193.
Co-host Courtney Romanowski.
Hi, courtney, how are you?
Hello, so happy to have herback.
She didn't want to do thisepisode alone.
She wanted me here because Lisais so intimidating.
Lisa Monka, just like WillyWonka, as I was just told, is
here.
We met through Facebook and Ithought Courtney would be
(04:10):
perfect with the stuff that wewere going to talk about.
We're going to talk aboutmovement and which is very
important, and I know Courtneyhas talked about this on the
podcast before.
So, lisa, welcome to Findingyour Way.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
Hi.
Well, thank you for having metoday Appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
It's our pleasure.
I mean, you ran from a yogaclass to be here, so we really
appreciate it.
You know I came from a yogaclass called a session, but
anyway.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
It was yoga for someone else, huh.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
I was contorting my sentences, so that's how I see
it.
Maybe that's Pilates, maybe I'mgetting it all wrong, but you
know, I got to know you a littlebit before the interview.
We looked at your website andeverything else, but hey, I
wouldn't know more about you.
My audience doesn't know aboutyou, so tell us about yourself.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
Yeah.
So like Courtney, I did dancetherapy.
I'm a board certified dancetherapist and licensed
professional clinical counselorout here in San Francisco and
I've been working.
I don't even want to say howlong I've been working, but it's
almost 20 years now and Ireally enjoy using movement to
help us heal psychologically.
(05:15):
I've worked in forensicsettings so prison settings,
inpatient psych and then mostrecently in private practice.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Wow, I worked in forensic settings for many years
.
I still work with my firstresponders, so happy that you
have that experience.
It was my first experience outof school.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
And it's almost like you know where you think I'm 23,
I can do anything kind of thing, and then you find out oh, I
know I can't do everything, butthe experience was really good.
I learned how to set boundariesreally well.
I learned a lot as a firstexperience.
I just think that you know Iwouldn't go back in terms of
it's a lot.
It takes a lot out of you towork in those settings and I
(05:56):
appreciate the people that areable to make a career out of it.
Speaker 4 (05:59):
Who did you work with in those settings?
The?
Speaker 3 (06:02):
incarcerated.
I actually worked in inpatientpsych.
So here in California at thetime they had a psychiatric
hospital on prison grounds andit was inpatient psych, it was
intermediate psychiatric care.
And then we had another one ina different prison that was,
let's see, it was the more acutecare.
(06:22):
So one prison had the acutepsych hospital and then another
one had the intermediate psychand I worked in the intermediate
psych hospital and that was wegot clients from all over, or I
should say patients from allover.
So all of the prisons in themen's prisons in California sent
their psych patients over to us.
Speaker 4 (06:43):
And did you and I know we'll get into this a
little bit more as we aretalking but did you do dance,
movement therapy with them?
Speaker 3 (06:50):
I did.
Speaker 4 (06:50):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
I did and it was.
It was quite an experience,Like as a therapist, right, If
you get people to trust you Idon't want to say they'll do
anything, but you can lead themto a lot of different places and
I was really appreciative ofhow those men allowed me to to
enter their world and also tokind of followed me into.
Okay, we're going to do somemovement.
(07:12):
This is strange, this is notwhat we normally do in a prison
setting and I'm going to do itanyways.
And that was really great andthose men were so creative and
so smart and the system was whatwore me down, as it wears down
everyone, but the actualpatients were really wonderful.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
Yeah, wow, yeah.
What a getting thrown rightinto the professional world
right out of school.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
Great, didn't know, didn't know.
Better, right, I can do it.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
That was one of my first jobs too, actually in the
county jail out here.
So when I got my master's,they're like great, you can do
all the evals for suicidewatches.
It was great.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
That's not heavy at all.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Not a size, pretty easy stuff.
But I remember people say whydidn't you like working in jails
?
I said actually the inmatesweren't that bad.
What was really bad is workingwith the administration.
And he said, actually theinmates weren't that bad.
What was really bad is workingwith the administration.
And what you talked about,those pressures, was unreal.
I joked around that they calledme for an extraction.
(08:13):
They have to bring in thetherapist to do an eval.
Sorry if I'm taking over for asecond, but I thought you didn't
know, the story.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
No, it's good to hear fellow therapists that have had
the experience.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Yeah.
So they call me up, they gocome on in quickly, we need the
evaluation, okay.
So I get to the second door,they make me wait and wait and
then the guy who's doing the andagain nothing against janitors,
literally the janitor who's notan inmate, it's an employee of
the state comes in.
He says I gotta come in.
You they let him in, but not me.
Like you gotta wait.
So I always told people likemental health was right below
(08:46):
the bucket of slush in that jail.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
Sure.
Speaker 4 (08:49):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
So I think that it's hard because a lot of our and we
can get on systems, I can go onsystems forever but a lot of
our mental health care, even onthe county level right, has
shifted towards oh, we're goingto throw a charge at this person
and then they're going to getthe care in the jails or in the
prison systems.
So consequently, as you mayknow, the jails and the prisons
(09:15):
are doing services they werenever set up to do right.
And then we're also it's justsuch a juxtaposition and maybe
it feels like a little bitoxymoronic where you're trying
to help people heal and then,once they heal, you send them
back out to the environmentwhere they got sick, and that
was really tough.
For me it's like okay, we gotyou stabilized, now we're going
to throw you back to the prisonwhere you were.
(09:37):
Before that you were kind ofunstable and it was really tough
that part of it was reallyreally hard.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
The community which it was really tough.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
That part of it was really really hard for the
community, which is alsounstable, which caused you to be
here in the first place, right,right, so that that's always
like heartbreaking because itwas like I never worried about
them.
You know, like you know, inprivate practice there's
constantly the thing of like,okay, is this person stable
enough?
It's on me as a mental healthprovider to make sure that
they're stable in the community,that they don't need a higher
(10:07):
level of care.
I never worried these guys hadthe highest level of care.
Like it was the most inpatientof inpatients.
Like but, on the other hand, itwas like they're being released
into environments that made themsick.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
I want to know a little bit more because you know
for some people some peopledon't know about dance, dance
therapy, but you being bringingup dance therapy in jail, that
must have also helped with someof the psychological trauma some
of these people unfortunatelygo through.
Uh, can you tell us a littlemore about all that?
Or?
Speaker 3 (10:33):
yeah, yeah.
So I want to be cautious, notto like um, I'll speak in
generalities, right, because wewant to make sure, like I can't
give individual cases, but Ithink in general, when people go
to prison, and especially men,there's an emphasis on bulking
up or you know certain kinds ofmovement, and I think dance
therapy allows people to besofter and exercise these parts
(10:55):
of themselves which, if youthink about a prison setting,
you're constantly like one,you're always watching your back
, right.
So there's like this sixthsense of what's behind me,
what's going on.
One you're always watching yourback, right?
So there's like this sixthsense of what's behind me,
what's going on.
And then there's also just theyou need to look tough, you
don't want to look like a target, all of these things, and I
think that cuts people off fromtheir humanity in a way.
If you only move in a certainway, that becomes your identity,
(11:17):
and I think if your identity isI don't want to be a target you
cut yourself off from a lot.
If your identity is.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
I don't want to be a target.
You cut yourself off from a lotand I think it's also takes you
like literally.
I think that humanity is lostnot only on inmates, but I think
even for ourselves.
When we work in thatenvironment, we almost lose our
humanity.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
Absolutely, and I think, being very young in that
environment, there was a lot offocus on well, and also dance
therapy.
Everyone thought it wasscandalous.
It was also like what I lookedlike, what I was doing oh my god
, they're moving their hips, youknow like and it just felt the
lack of education around whatdance therapy was and what it
(11:55):
brought, as well as the scrutinythat you get being a young
clinician and a young female inthe prison setting quite a bit.
So I think that you know mysolution.
My solution was okay, I'mwearing a 2XL hoodie over
whatever I put on.
Nobody's complaining about whatI'm wearing because I have
basically like a muumuu orsomething over me at all times
because I don't want that kindof attention, and but it does.
(12:18):
Even that is like.
You can't appear as yourself,right?
You're appearing as a version.
That is like can you dress down?
Pretend you're not a female,pretend you're not attractive.
If you're attractive, pretendall these things in order to fit
into a very stifling setting.
Speaker 4 (12:37):
So I've had this conversation a few times with
folks, both off camera and forthe podcast.
I've been honored to be able tointerview a couple other dance
therapists and we are in thisprofession that, if you don't
know what it is, the words cansound very loaded Dance movement
therapy, Like okay.
So if I don't know what thosethings are, what am I walking
(13:00):
into?
So like when you walked, whenyou had this first job, and
you're like, well, I'm going todo dance movement therapy with
you guys, what did that looklike?
Speaker 3 (13:09):
So we went from we'll get a little technical here,
but I'll explain.
So we went from a model whichis a group model, right?
So I think since the beginningof time, human beings have got
together in a circle and dancedor listened to music or been
around a fire or and you know,we don't want to say that dance
(13:29):
therapist invented that, becausethat would be just wrong.
So, the idea of a circle so youcan see everyone in the group,
we usually do some kind ofmovement warm-up and, as you
know, courtney, as a dancetherapist, the dance part of it
I like to explain, it is notwe're teaching a certain dance,
not we're doing a certain dance,it's the dance therapist has a
(13:50):
training to observe movement,right, you want to be able to
see what's happening, to put themovement in their body.
That's the other part and thento think of what would an
appropriate movementintervention may be.
So would you like an example?
I don't know if people giveexamples on this podcast I think
it's important, and I mean you.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
I think that what you got my my audience, who is
actually very open and have hadhigh hopes when they had
courtney and talk about dancemovement therapy.
But I also work with a lot offirst responders who go what the
hell is that?
So maybe it would be helpful tohave some examples.
Sorry to jump in here, coy.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
So I have to give, well, a couple of examples.
So, like in the prison safe, Ihad someone who was like
directing energy and was likepunching forward I'm doing a
punching motion.
For those of you that can't seeme, that might not be an energy
I would want then, or amovement I would want directed
at other people.
As a dance therapist, in myhead one, I have to keep moving.
If I stop moving, my groupfalls apart a lot of the time,
(14:48):
especially if you have morepsychotic people that aren't
going to do it on their ownright.
They're just like oh, you stopmoving, everyone stops moving,
Classic.
Try and do it sometime.
If you go to a dance class,watch the dance, the instructor
stops moving and everyone willstop.
I have to keep moving and haveto keep doing the movement.
But maybe I would modify it.
Maybe I would like have thempunch downwards, right, so that
(15:10):
the energy is not directedtowards another person, but they
still want to get maybe thataggressive energy out and
instead of saying no, no,punching is bad, how can I make
a movement intervention thatwould work well for the person
to, you know, release ordischarge some of that without,
you know, harming someone else?
Another example I like to giveis you know, when you're
(15:32):
depressed right, let's all dothis for a second actually so
take like a fist to your chestand imagine just someone
punching you in, like so yeah,and then just sit like that for
a moment and notice like howdoes it feel?
Like, can you do a lot ofmovement there?
Speaker 4 (15:48):
You can't even do a lot of breathing there.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
Right, you can't do a lot of breathing, right, shake
it off, take it out, whateveryou need to do.
But from that place right Ithink of people with depression,
I see that a lot and I saw thata lot in hospitals Like that
would be maybe a movementcharacteristic, I would see, or
a movement posture, a bodyposture, and from there we want
to not just like bust them outof it because that would be too
(16:12):
much.
We there, we want to not justlike bust them out of it because
that would be too much.
We can't just impose acompletely different movement on
it.
It would be a really roughtransition but we can start to
think of subtle ways we can getthem to change their body
movement and change how theyfeel.
Right, and I love this examplebecause almost immediately you
can feel like, oh gosh, thisdoesn't feel good, right.
(16:32):
And now, if you take that sameposture and if it were a dance
therapy class where I was tryingto get people to learn about
dance therapy, I'd have themwalk around and be like what's
the experience of walking aroundlike that?
So by changing how we move, wechange how we feel and that
changes our thoughts as well.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
I really like that and you know you're educating me
.
Like I said, I'm veryinterested in this stuff, so
really enjoy it.
But you know, one of the thingsthat we talked about you know a
little earlier and you we'vetalked about pre interview is
you know, I really don't knowthe relationship of dance,
movement, therapy and trauma.
I mean, to me it seems likeapples and celery, frankly.
(17:11):
So I like I'm not playing dumb,I promise I really don't know.
So please help me out herebecause I want to understand it,
because I believe in it.
Don't get me wrong, I justdon't understand it.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
Right.
So there's been a lot moreresearch over the years.
I think what dance therapistshave known all along is that the
body keeps kind of records ofwhat has happened to us
throughout life, whether it'sphysical or psychological, right
?
I actually did my my thesis onthe body image of rape survivors
and I was very curious as toyou know, if I'm having you move
(17:47):
your body, does that elicit thefeelings or the trauma or what
happens?
Right?
And for the most part that wasnot the case.
It was like, okay, when I'mmoving like this, it just
reminds me of an exercise class,right?
So the generic dance movementtherapy warmup did not get into
the trauma.
But you could find the specifictrigger, like body trigger, if
(18:09):
the person was able to tell youor let you know when their body
started to respond in a certainway.
It might have been a phrasethat somebody said when an
assault happened.
It could have been a, you know,a certain type of pressure or
contact that could cause that.
So the body keeps that memoryof the assault that happened and
(18:31):
by working with the body we canrelease it a lot better than
the verbal, like talking, right,and then a couple of resources.
So there's a book called theBody Remembers by Babette
Rothschild.
That's a great book, that's aresource.
And then Bessel van der Kolk'sbook, the Body Keeps the Score,
which has gained popularity overthe past 10 years, I would say,
(18:52):
or past eight years.
And those talk about, like, theunderpinnings, the
neurobiological, all thoseunderpinnings of why dance
therapy is effective.
And I think it's good to noticethat, like our hippocampus,
that part of the brain that laysdown when this thing happened,
kind of goes offline whenthere's a ton of cortisol.
(19:14):
So in that case and you knowI'm not a, I'm not huge on
neuroanatomy, so forgive me if Idon't get it exactly right
You're not able to tell ifsomething is happening in the
past or happening right now.
So that's accounts for yourPTSD and people getting flooded
when they hear a certain noiseor a certain sensation happens,
(19:36):
and that I think using the bodyto lay more context or to find a
feeling of safety is wheredance therapy really excels.
And again, it's not dance perse, it's more pedestrian body
movement walking around.
Where do you feel that in yourbody?
What would you like to do withthis feeling, like all of these
things walking people through?
(19:57):
That was a very succinctexplanation, but I hope it got
to where you were going.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (20:02):
no, I thought it was really wonderful, yeah, and now,
of course, I forgot where I wasgoing.
Oh, I think you were talkingearlier about the role as the
dance movement therapist.
A lot of our quote unquote jobis to witness, right and to, you
know, feel in our bodies, atleast my interpretation of what
I do, feel in my body, what I'mwitnessing, so that if the
(20:26):
patient, the client, the personmaybe doesn't recognize it yet,
that I can somehow, you know,this is what I'm feeling in my
body when I see you sitting back, you know, slumped over I don't
know, just kind of like yes, somaking that connection for them
.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
Yeah, we're using our body as a source of information
, right.
As a therapist and it dependshow finely tuned you get.
Like I have gotten to the pointyou know less so over online
stuff.
But sometimes people would walkin and I would be like I am
angry and I'm like I wasn'tangry two minutes ago.
And then like I don't know if,as a therapist, you've ever had
this happen.
You're like I'm angry, what'shappening?
(21:03):
And then, two minutes into theconversation, the client's like
I'm really upset, frustratedabout blah, blah, blah.
And I'm like, oh, I picked upthis thing.
Yeah, that's a very subtleexample, but I think we use our
bodies as a way to empathize,right, if we think about mirror
neurons, the same neurons firewhen we witness something, like
(21:25):
when we watch someone's movement, as when we do the movement
ourselves.
Like I watch you throwing abaseball, courtney, and it's
like this I'm throwing abaseball, but but, the other
part of it is, if you can getinto your body which dance
therapists can, and kind ofreplicate movement and mirror
movement, then we get anotherlike, I would say, a kinesthetic
(21:45):
, like a bodily empathy thatmaybe you know other therapists
have less access to.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
Well, I certainly don't have access to that.
So it's always good to hearthat what it does, because,
again, it's not ignorance onpurpose, it's I don't know.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
I think you know, and it's okay to not know.
I appreciate like when peoplewant to like to be very frank
with you.
When I got into the field, itwas.
I was like there's art therapyin the world, there to be very
frank with you.
When I got into the field, itwas.
I was like there's art therapyin the world, there's music
therapy.
There must be dance therapy,right?
So I typed it into Google.
(22:23):
And that's how I found my futureprofession.
So I found the American DanceTherapy Association.
I was like I still don't knowwhat this is but I'm going to
apply for grad school and thattells you a little bit about my
personality, where this is a bigwhim and that tells you a
little bit about my personality,where this is a big whim and
I'm going to go for it and Iended up loving it.
But even truly like up until thefirst semester, I'm like I'm
not exactly sure how dancetherapy works and it also feels
(22:43):
like it's a little bit nebulousor a little hazy, right, because
you know we like reallyconcrete things, but dance as an
art form isn't concrete.
We're watching something, we'removing.
It's not like I produced apiece of music or a piece of art
and I think that's also alittle bit of the part that gets
(23:03):
hard to translate is, hey, thismovement thing, yeah, I get
that it helps, but what's theconcrete thing that I see and
that can be hard to define orexplain?
I feel like over time I'vegotten a lot better vocabulary
and I've gotten so used to goingbetween, you know,
psychological language and thedance therapy language that I
(23:26):
can give a pretty goodrepresentation.
That takes time too.
Speaker 4 (23:29):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And then you know when you'repartnering dance movement
therapy with trauma work.
You know from my experiences,you know trauma is hazy in
itself as well, for each person.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
So yeah, and I think you know the words I use with
you guys.
You're therapists, right, butI'm not going to go to a client
necessarily and be like we'reworking on your hippocampus and
laying down new memories andyeah, it's too much.
It's too much.
It's like slow down, breathe.
What are you feeling?
Where do you feel that?
Like just getting themconnected, and it's a lot softer
(24:05):
and it's a lot lessintellectual than how we're
talking about it right thismoment and I think that that's
the other part too is when youdeal with a lot of trauma and
dance therapy stuff.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
I mean, for me, you know, one of my first visits to
my therapist was because oftrauma stuff that went on in my
life, and one of the standardquestions here on our podcast is
to ask if someone's been intherapy before.
So, lisa, have you ever been intherapy yourself?
Speaker 3 (24:28):
Absolutely so.
I've been in therapy for manyyears.
Most recently I've done moreattachment work and I think that
has been helpful, you know.
So I found Diane Poole Heller'swork and we could talk a little
bit more about her work.
But she did somaticexperiencing with Peter Levine
(24:48):
for many years and then she kindof branched off and did you
know, attachment work, helpingadults repattern their
attachment, like even today.
If you go read psychology todayand it's like you have an
anxious attachment and you readabout anxious attachment, it's
like you're screwed.
Studies say that you can't fixthis.
Sorry, your mom or dad wasinattentive.
(25:10):
Sorry, your mom or dad wasinattentive or very in flux with
how they were as a caregiver,and that's not very hopeful.
Nor is it true.
But I guarantee you you can goread it and it's like, well, 30
percent or some 30 percent ofanxious attached people can't
find someone or like you findall this stuff.
But um, Diane's work is reallyhopeful and it talks a lot about
(25:32):
how you can move towards secureattachment, and all of us want
to move towards secureattachment.
Our attachment adaptations arethere because that was the
smartest way we could figure outas a baby, as a child, to get
our needs met.
And once we feel secure, wewill not need and not secure,
(25:54):
completely secure.
But when we move towards secure, we will not need that same,
those same adaptations, thosesame behaviors that you see that
we thought, hey, this worked inthe past when I was really
little.
I need to keep doing this inorder to get the attention Well,
I like that and you're right.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
I mean, well, I don't read the internet too much
because pop psychology hasreally ruined our field, if you
ask me, because everyone'snarcissistic and everyone's
neurodivergent and everyone is,and I'm done with that stuff.
But that's just my podcast.
I can say whatever I want.
But you talked a little bit ofthe attachment stuff and I know
one of the things we talkedpre-interview is we talked about
(26:32):
dynamic attachment,repatterning, repatterning sorry
second language.
Can you tell me more about that?
Speaker 3 (26:44):
Because I don't even know what that is, frankly.
Yeah, so that's DianePohlheller's system for working
with adult attachment, right?
So say somebody comes to youand they're like I'm having so
much trouble in dating, I know,I get really anxious, I can't
tell, like I'm just want thisperson to like me so badly.
But I don't know how I feelwhen another person enters the
picture.
I get really fixated on them,right?
That sounds like someone withan anxious attachment style or,
(27:06):
and it might even be I'm stillusing pretty psych terms so it
might even be more like I cannever get a relationship that
feels like it's working.
Or I go on all these dates,what am I doing wrong?
And if we can kind of look atthose things and how to help
this person feel so, withanxious attachment, the work is
(27:26):
going to be to keep a sense ofyourself Again, be a body,
bodily sensations being engagedin the body.
When there are other peoplepresent, somebody with more
avoidant attachment, it might belike, hey, you actually might
need people.
You know you can't just be overhere.
You're a lone wolf self and tryand date.
That doesn't work, right, canyou learn to you know, tolerate
(27:49):
and eventually enjoy thepresence of others and find it.
You know it's not a scary place, you don't have to rely just on
yourself all the time.
But she has specific work thatreally engages people and kind
of repatterns the nervous systemand that way of going towards
or away or coping when inrelationship.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
Yeah, I've always had trouble understanding the whole
attachment thing too, and whenI remember, even in class when
we would read about it, itsounded so like oh my God, how
am I going to help anyone withthese type of patterns of
attachment?
So I appreciate thisexplanation.
It makes a whole lot of senseto me, thank you.
Speaker 3 (28:28):
Well, everyone has an attachment, adaptation right,
and we all have pockets of eachone.
Speaker 4 (28:33):
Not you, not you.
Steve is special.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
That's what my mom says.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
anyway, you're the exception that proves who Got it
Got it.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
So, and we all have pockets right.
If somebody gets in arelationship where the other
person is super anxious, theymight end up being the avoidant
one and they're like wait, wait,I never play this role, you
know, and we have pockets ofsecure and sometimes it's easier
for people to find secureattachment in friendship or even
you know, like helping someonefeel bodily what a secure
(29:02):
attachment feels like.
That's such powerful work, right, even if it's like my dog.
I feel securely attached to mydog and somebody might be
skeptical but it's like no, youcan bring up those feelings and
then what you, once you knowwhat that is in your body, you
can look for it in other placesand at least you have the tools
to recognize it.
But I agree like this theywould say things like when
(29:25):
you're in school, right, and belike well, you, uh, you know,
just the having the safetherapeutic presence is gonna to
help with attachment, and itdoes to a degree.
But it's good to have an actualsystem and actual way of
engaging that helps peopleaddress that.
Speaker 4 (29:42):
So interesting.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
Yeah, I mean I, I, you know.
All I can think of is when Italk about attachment with my
clients and I'm not.
Again, you talk about neuro,neuropsychology and everything
else.
I talk about creating newpatterns in your brain so you
can get to that point.
And yes, it takes time and it'smessy, and all that because the
hardest part about attachmentand getting used to it is to
(30:04):
know that if you want it tohappen overnight, I always tell
people I'm not your guy so Ican't do it.
You want some work and you wantto do it and it's going to be
hard, then do it and that's howyour neural pathways start
changing, because we haveneuroplasticity, and that way
you can change from yourmidbrain, your monkey brain,
whatever you want to call it,and reacting that way to more of
a cerebral cortex reaction sothat it can create a better for
(30:29):
lack of a better word secureattachment.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
Right, and I think that's the part that's really
like.
You know, my dance therapytraining and then like the
somatic experiencing and thenjust being in the body, right,
if you can get a sense of safety, then the prefrontal cortex
comes back online.
That's cerebral like oh, I canthink about this now, but before
then it's just like there's alizard running the show back
(30:53):
there.
You know, your little lizardbrain is running the show and
it's really hard.
So I think that's one of thebeauties is getting people
embodied really does help workwith trauma, whether it's
developmental trauma and theattachment work, or whether it's
developmental trauma and theattachment work, or whether it's
other kinds of psychologicaltrauma, and using dance therapy,
you know, having conversationslike this, um always, you know,
(31:15):
makes me feel like how could,how could we not use dance,
movement therapy for trauma?
Speaker 4 (31:20):
because, like, yeah, it's, it's all in the body, it
is?
Speaker 3 (31:24):
and I think what's um , you know how we talked about a
little bit earlier, about howyou know movement right, as
therapists, we have our owntools as dance therapists, our
felt sense like, oh, when I didwhat this client did, this is
what I felt and I'm going togive that and reflect it back to
them.
I think one of the interestingparts and I want to bring this
(31:46):
up is, just as dance therapists,we have to look at where our
movement bias is to what feelsgood, just like as therapists in
the field, right?
You asked if I went to therapy.
Yes, absolutely I went totherapy, because if I didn't, we
would, you know, I wouldn'tknow where the things are that
trigger me, and when somebody'stalking about something, all of
a sudden I'm like why do I feellike crying?
(32:13):
you know, nobody wants to bebombarded with that, and I think
there's some really great workI think it's ebony mitchell has
done some work I might be wrongon the name about dance
therapist movement bias, andthey've created a group called
black magic.
And especially this, um, youknow being black history month
and also, like with currentpolitical climate, I think it's
good to.
Um, you know being blackhistory month and also, like
with current political climate,I think it's good to highlight,
you know, bipoc work, orespecially in our field, um, and
(32:35):
just if I may, and to make itreally simple, right.
So say, I, as a white woman,have only done ballet, jazz and
tap all my life.
And then I'm like I'm gonna gointo this place with a different
ethnicity and differentcultural background and, oh my
god, they're moving their hips.
Salsa feels very sexual to me,oh my god.
(32:57):
Right, so there's somethingwhere we have to acknowledge our
own bias towards.
Oh, this is how I, when Iobserve this kind of movement,
this is how I interpret it,that's my bias and also in my
body, I like to move a certainway and when my client does this
movement, I want to move awayfrom it, not because there's
(33:17):
anything wrong with what myclient's movement is, but I have
a preference for something else.
So I think it's just importantto to mention that like, yeah,
how could we not be using dancemovement therapy?
And also there's some littleblind spots here and there that
as a as a professional, we'reworking on and hopefully are
thoughtful about.
(33:37):
Like, okay, you know, I'venever moved in this kind of way.
Can I get curious and maybepart of us as dance therapists,
not just getting dance therapyor getting therapy is going out,
and us as dance therapists, notjust getting dance therapy or
getting therapy is going out andtaking a dance class that makes
us move differently thatenriches our movement repertoire
so that whoever comes in,you're not like I've never tried
(33:58):
to move like that.
Oh, this is awkward.
And then you get lost in yourown awkwardness and aren't
present with the client.
Speaker 4 (34:04):
Does that make sense?
Makes a lot of sense, steve, doyou get that?
Speaker 2 (34:09):
I got it.
I mean you talked about earlierlike you said, I stayed curious
around these things because thewhite male bias doesn't need to
always be there and certainlygetting to know and be curious
and learning stuff.
And yes, you talked aboutpolitical climate and all that.
I think that once in a while asyou know, we're three Caucasian
(34:31):
people here we need to be ableto challenge our thought process
and be able to look at thingsdifferently, because we don't
have all the answers andunfortunately, for the longest
time, that's how that wasperceived.
Speaker 3 (34:41):
So and we have a great deal of power as
therapists.
Like we don't talk about itexplicitly as much, but that's
why all the rules are in place,that's why the confidentiality
is in place, that's why, likethe very obvious rule, but like
people obviously weren't doingit Like, don't sleep with your
clients, don't be friends withyour clients, because it muddies
(35:02):
things up, right.
That's why these things are inplace, because we do have a
great deal of power and andknowing how we wield that power
especially if we're of adifferent skin color or you know
a different gender then our,our clients, is really important
to know and I think it's allimportant stuff.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
and I mean, you know, like when you thought, when you
said peter levin and I know himand I've seen him speak and
he's quite interesting person,so when you talk about the body,
remembers, I can't remember theauthor that you mentioned.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
So Babette Rothschild , and then the body keeps.
The score is Bessel yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
I met Bessel too, and that's not appropriate for this
podcast for me to talk about myexperience with him, but he
wrote an excellent book.
I'll say that.
Speaker 3 (35:44):
Yeah, isn't that kind of how we have to look at some
of these things with nuance,right?
This person wrote an excellentbook.
I've had X, y, z experience andI you know that I have to like
leave this out of it.
You know, and I think it's goodto to be willing to not say
this is either.
This person is either good orbad.
(36:04):
We can take the book and theother parts maybe we need to
leave because we have feelingsabout them or how they presented
themselves.
Wasn't what we're in alignmentwith, right?
Oh, I wanted to correct myself.
I think I talked about thedance therapist movement bias.
It's actually Ebony Nichols.
I want to make sure I get hername right, because I don't want
(36:25):
to screw that up.
Speaker 4 (36:26):
Yeah, I was searching for the name in my brain.
Speaker 3 (36:29):
Yeah, I was like Mitchell, but that's not correct
and I want to make sure I gotthe right name, especially for
her.
Speaker 4 (36:34):
Thank you, Lisa.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Well, I was really frustrated.
Thank you very much for fixingit.
Speaker 3 (36:39):
Yeah, I know, I know you probably knew all the dance
therapist names.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
I secretly, do I secretly?
Speaker 3 (36:44):
do?
I secretly looked them up onthe side, got your Google out.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
I don't have my Google on the other side.
I've been just fact checkingyou since the beginning.
Well, you know, it would beinteresting to hear more about
what you know like.
I know that we all do things astherapists that are pretty
unique and I like to showcasethat when we do my, we do our
podcast.
Can you tell me more about thestuff that you're putting out in
the world right now?
Speaker 3 (37:09):
Yeah, so I actually have my private practice and you
can find that under my nameit's lisamoncacom.
And then I have also I'mstarting to do workshops for
schools, like dance therapyworkshops, and for institutions,
like companies, and I thinkit's great for, like, a wellness
perspective and especially ifthey're looking for ways to get
(37:33):
their employees embodied andfeeling better and work on
workplace retention.
That's another thing.
Like you have to have employeesthat recognize when they're
burnt out, but if they're notaware of their bodies, they're
not going to recognize that.
So I'm doing more dance therapyworkshops than ever and
obviously when we do a dancetherapy workshop, it's not
therapy per se.
(37:54):
We're using dance therapytechniques, but it doesn't count
as therapy because you don'twant to have therapy with Joanne
from HR and then go back andthat would be really awkward.
So it's more of a wellnessapproach than anything, right,
that would be very awkward.
It's like oh, I know all aboutJoanne's stuff now.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
Let me tell you, and you're like, we don't want those
dynamics in the workplace.
Speaker 3 (38:18):
We want to keep people's privacy, so it's using
dance therapy techniques.
I call them dance therapyworkshops, but for different
companies and schools, and I'vereally been appreciating doing
that.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
Great, and how would we reach you for any of these
things?
Speaker 3 (38:34):
My website's probably the best, so lisamoncacom, and
my last name is spelled M, as inMary A, and it's a Nancy C, as
in Charlie A.
Speaker 4 (38:44):
Perfect.
It's a great website.
Speaker 3 (38:45):
I checked it out, oh good, good, I'm glad you like
I've been blogging.
Oh my gosh, so much blogginggood for you my blogs.
Be like one of the three people.
It will make you very happy,but no, I I didn't read the
blogs.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
I'll be honest.
I did see your website quicklyand I thought it was really good
and it's awesome that you'reputting that stuff out there.
I think the hardest part is torealize that.
You know, I had thisconversation with another
therapist recently.
I'm not in competition with anytherapist in this career, in
this world, because we all havedifferent gifts that we can
bring, and you know, trulythat's what I appreciate of all
(39:21):
the therapists and I reallyappreciate what you do.
Speaker 3 (39:24):
Thank you, yeah, and I think likewise it's always
good to have the mindset of, Ithink, maybe where you can tell
a younger therapist from anolder therapist older therapist
is like I'm not for you, that'sokay.
Right and letting clients go,and I appreciate that you guys
doing therapy podcasts andespecially in a thoughtful way,
because you know we got so muchstuff, we got TikTok, we got
(39:45):
Insta.
You know we got so much stuff,we got TikTok, we got Insta.
You know like everyone'sspouting psychological knowledge
and it's good to have sourcesfor people to go to that are
actually, you know, thoughtfuland trying to get experts and
you know being smart about whoyou're putting on and I really
appreciate that.
So thank you.
(40:07):
Well, probably one of the firsttimes this year I've been called
smart, so thank you.
I appreciate that always.
You know it's january, that'spretty good hey, february is
february oh february.
Sorry you missed january.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
Maybe next month too and I'll break a wall for my, my
audience, for a second.
We are actually it's going tobe released in February and we
are like oh yeah, in.
February.
So I'm breaking a wall here.
I just want oh before the wallwent down.
Okay, when we're done with theinterview, I'm going to do a an
(40:39):
orientation test with youbecause I'm very concerned right
now and for all our therapistfriends.
Listening to this, I know.
Speaker 3 (40:42):
I know my name is still Lisa, though I got it.
No, you pick.
I know my name's still Lisa,though I got it.
Whatever month it is, no youpick, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
On that happy note, I need to look at how we get us I
don't know how it works in SanFrancisco and call the
authorities to get hospitalized.
But otherwise you can go to ourwebsite.
She'll be available there.
Speaker 3 (41:01):
Okay, thank you.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
But, lisa, thank you.
I really appreciate Courtney,always good.
Speaker 4 (41:08):
Yeah, loved being on again, lisa, it was wonderful
meeting you.
Speaker 3 (41:10):
Yeah, you too take care well, that completes
episode 193.
Speaker 2 (41:14):
Courtney romanowski again, just a great co-host,
thank you.
More importantly, lisa monka.
Thank you so much.
I hope you go check her out.
Um, lisa monkacom.
I'll put in the show notes andit was a great interview.
I hope you guys enjoyed it andI'll see you for the next
episode where we're going totalk about the rebranding.
Speaker 1 (41:33):
Please like, subscribe and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful and, as a reminder, this
podcast is for informational,educational and entertainment
purposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(41:55):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
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