April 23, 2025 • 40 mins
Michael Sugrue shares his powerful journey from military service to law enforcement to his medical retirement due to post-traumatic stress injury, revealing how he almost became one of the alarming first responder suicide statistics and his mission to now "smash the stigma" around mental health.
• From Air Force security forces officer to 14 years with Walnut Creek Police Department, serving in various roles including undercover detective
• First responder suicide remains significantly underreported, with over 2,000 known law enforcement suicides since 2016
• The culture of suppressing emotions and projecting invincibility begins in academy training with virtually no focus on mental health
• First responders experience hundreds of traumatic incidents in their careers compared to the average person's one or two in a lifetime
• After a 2012 officer-involved shooting, Michael suffered in silence for four years before finally seeking help
• Building relationships with culturally competent therapists before major incidents occur is crucial for prevention
• Leadership at all levels must model vulnerability and normalize conversations about mental health
• Post-traumatic stress is not a career-ender if addressed promptly with appropriate resources
• Michael's book "Relentless Courage" provides both personal insight and practical resources for first responders
Find Michael Sugrue on all social media platforms as "Sgt Michael Sugrue" to connect and learn more about resources for first responders dealing with trauma.
His Book - Relentless Courage: Winning The Battle Against Frontline Trauma. - Can be purchased by clicking here.
Freed AI converts conversations into SOAP note.Use code Steve50 for $50 off the 1st month!
Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action, where
strength meets strategy andcourage to help you move forward
.
Each week, your host, steveBisson, a therapist with over
two decades of experience in thefirst responder community,
brings you powerfulconversations about resilience,
growth and healing throughtrauma and grief.
Whether you're navigating thecomplex journey of grief,
(00:22):
processing trauma or seeking tobuild resilience in high-stress
environments, this podcast isyour trusted companion.
From first responders facingdaily challenges to emergency
personnel managing criticalsituations, to leaders carrying
the weight of difficultdecisions, we're here to support
your journey.
Through authentic interviews,expert discussions and
(00:43):
real-world experiences, we divedeep into the heart of human
resilience.
We explore crucial topics liketrauma recovery, grief
processing, stress managementand emotional well-being.
Our conversations bridge thegap between professional insight
and practical application,offering you tools and
strategies that work in the realworld.
(01:03):
Join us as we create a spacewhere healing is possible, where
grief finds understanding andwhere resilience becomes your
foundation for growth.
This is Resilience Developmentin Action with Steve Bisson.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Bienvenue and welcome to episode 201.
If you haven't listened toepisode 200, which was the
premier episode of ResilienceDevelopment in Action, it was
with Charlie Powell, so pleasego back and listen to it.
But episode 201 would besomeone that I met through
Facebook and I was really happyto meet this individual and I
can't wait for you to hear theinterview.
Michael Sugru began his lawenforcement career in the United
(01:39):
States Air Force as a securityforces officer in the United
States Air Force as a securityforces officer and then Michael
served in a variety ofassignments, including flight
leader, flight commander, seniorwatch officer and chief of
command post and chief ofsecurity forces.
Michael served all over theUnited States, europe, the
Middle East and South America.
Immediately after the Air Force, he joined the Walnut Creek
(02:01):
Police Department where heserved in a variety of
assignments, from patrol officerto driver training instructor
to field training officer,undercover detective, public
information and patrol sergeant.
Michael ultimately medicallyretired and he's going to share
that on the podcast, and Michaelis dedicated to advocate for
awareness and prevention forpost-traumatic stress injury and
(02:26):
first responder suicideprevention.
Michael continues to speak atmilitary units and law
enforcement agencies all overthe United States and please go
and find him if you can.
But here's the interview.
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Well, welcome to episode 201 ofResilience Development in Action
.
I'm so happy to have MichaelSugru here.
Michael has a great story.
I've listened to podcasts thathe's been on.
I didn't buy his book yet, justbeing honest, but I'm going to
(04:58):
get his book.
I've also looked at a lot ofhis experience between the
military, being a police andthen having to have a
post-traumatic stress injury andworking on the stigma.
I mean I thought he was perfectfor this podcast.
So, michael, welcome toResilience Development in Action
.
Thanks for having me on.
Well, like I said, I looked itup a little bit, obviously, and
(05:21):
you send me your notes.
We talked a little bit beforethe interview, but how about you
introduce yourself to myaudience?
Speaker 3 (05:27):
yeah, I'm originally from the san francisco bay area,
which is where I live now.
Um, right after college, I wentstraight into the air force,
was commissioned an officer insecurity forces, which is
basically law enforcement,anti-terrorism force protection,
air-based ground defense.
I served six and a half yearsall over the world South America
(05:49):
, the Middle East, europe, gotout in 2004 as a captain and I
went straight into civilian lawenforcement here in the San
Francisco Bay Area for theWalnut Creek Police Department.
There I served 14 years avariety of assignments, from
patrol officer, field trainingofficer, detective.
(06:10):
I was undercover on aCalifornia state drug task force
, was a sergeant and also apublic information officer.
I actually medically retired in2018 due to post-traumatic
stress injury and now that I'mretired, I speak all over the
country on suicide awareness andprevention, trauma exposure,
(06:35):
resiliency basically teachingthose to ask for help when they
need it and to not let thestigma prevent them from doing
so.
Part of my story that I talkabout is I almost became one of
the suicide statistics, which isthe number one killer for all
first responders.
So law enforcement,firefighters, paramedics,
(06:59):
dispatchers, and so now I'm on amission to smash the stigma, as
I say, and show the human side,behind the badge and the
uniform.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
You know I saw the stats.
I know this is going to comeout in about mid-April.
I saw the stats I think you putout recently about how we
already have like 13 suicidesamong police officers already
this year.
And we're at the end of Marchwhen we're recording this,
already this year and we're atthe end of March when we're
recording this.
It's really fascinating to mehow we don't pay attention to
this tragedy because of thestress either from
(07:31):
post-traumatic stress, injury orother stressors that come with
the job, because there's so many.
Why do you think the numbersare so high in general with the
suicide rate?
Not only the effectiveness ofusually use a firearm, but what
else is the reason why we haveso many high suicide rates among
police officers?
Speaker 3 (07:49):
You know, part of it's the culture from day one in
the police academy.
We're taught to, you know, notexpress feelings, not show
emotion, that we have to beinvincible, we have to be the
ones to run towards danger wheneverybody else is running away
from it.
And you know it's just not whatwe're taught.
We're taught firearms,defensive tactics, use of force,
(08:10):
emergency vehicle operations,criminal law, report writing all
these things that we spendnearly almost a thousand hours
on just in the academy.
And then, if we talk about oncewe start our career, I mean
thousands and thousands oftraining hours, but we spend
little to no time talking aboutthe number one threat, which is
(08:32):
ourselves.
You know, the other factorwhich this applies to
firefighters and paramedics anddispatchers as well is just the
level of trauma that we'reexposed to.
If you look at an averageperson, you know they may have
one or two traumatic incidentsin an entire lifetime.
But for law enforcement,firefighters, paramedics,
(08:54):
dispatchers we're talkinghundreds and hundreds of
traumatic incidents.
I mean there's differentestimates, but I would say, on a
conservative side, well over500 traumatic incidents in a
career, and you can take thatnumber up to well over a
thousand, especially now whenyou start talking about here in
California.
You know the retirement age isnow 57.
(09:16):
So if you have somebodystarting out at 21 years old and
they work till they're 57, youknow, simply do the math of the.
You know, just call after calland in some days in a single
shift you can be exposed tomultiple traumatic incidents.
And so literally one day onshift is more than most people
experience in their entirelifetime.
(09:37):
And you know we're taught tobrush everything off, to not
internalize it, and basically,you know we tell ourselves that,
hey, we don't know these people, there's no attachment here, we
don't get involved, it's ourjob, and that only works for so
long.
But the reality is that youknow the humanity of what we
(09:58):
have to see and deal with.
It takes a toll and what I'madvocating for is to normalize
having these conversations afterthese traumatic incidents and
not waiting to the point whereit's too late.
It was almost too late, youknow, for me.
But the other thing that I wantto bring up too, and you
mentioned this in the beginning,on the suicide numbers even the
(10:20):
best numbers that we have,they're way underreported.
Best numbers that we have,they're way underreported.
First, help is really the onlygroup I know about.
It's a nonprofit that'stracking these numbers, for it
used to be only law enforcementand a couple of years ago they
started with firefighters,dispatchers and paramedics.
And since 2016, when they'vebeen tracking these numbers,
(10:41):
we're already over 2000 lawenforcement suicide alone and on
average, we're talking aboutanywhere from 120 to over 200 a
year that we know about.
So take that number, maybetimes that by three or four, we
might get a real number, andwe're not even talking about
those that retire.
(11:01):
You know, those numbers thatare tracked are for the ones
that are still active duty orthe ones that are still working
and, as we know, a lot of thesesuicides happen when we hang up
that badge and that uniform andwe're no longer operational.
We no longer have this identityas a firefighter or a police
officer, dispatcher or paramedic.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
I mean, I talk about that with all my retirees who
are?
going to retire that you losethat role and, oh no, I'll be
fine.
I'll be fine.
But there's something aboutthat role that really you carry
throughout your life, whetherit's off-duty or even in
retirement, and sometimes that'svery heavy for them to carry.
I don't know what yourexperience has been, but I've
(11:44):
seen so many people die eithernatural causes or suicide or
something like that, after theyretire because they just lost
themselves.
I don't know if that's yourexperience, but certainly I've
seen that in my career.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
Absolutely.
I've seen it in my career.
I see it in my work with theWest Coast Post Trauma Retreat
Center.
I speak all over the country, Ihear about these incidents, I
talk to other people.
But the other thing too is howmany on-d duty accidents and
I'll give you an example, like apatrol car where the officer is
not wearing their seatbelt intoa tree or into a sound wall, um
(12:22):
, or how many firefighters youknow run into a building or go
on a roof which they know isgoing to collapse, hoping that
they die in the line of duty.
And again, I'm not saying thatit's one or the other, but
sometimes it can be both.
And in my case, those are thethings that I thought about,
where I never had an active planto kill myself, but I was
(12:45):
trying to get killed in the lineof duty, and for me, that
reason was because I knew, ifthat happened, my family was
going to be taken care of.
My young daughter would alwaysremember who her father was, and
my brothers and sisters wouldstep up and make sure she knew
who her father was, because I'dbe remembered, I'd be honored,
and that's the thing that wehave to think about as well is
(13:07):
that sometimes these suicidesaren't obvious.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
I mean, I, you know, I've had someone confess to me
that going into a meth lab areawithout the proper gear and
hopefully you inhale the rightthings at the right time I've
heard the whole carbon monoxidegoing into a building where you
know carbon monoxide poisoningisn't just so that you look
accidentally that you died.
So these are not like fakestories, these are all real
(13:33):
stories.
When I hear your story I'malways fascinated by that.
What kept you alive?
Essentially Because that'salways kind of like difficult
for most people to say.
You know, most suicidalthoughts last for around 15
minutes.
That's my training and I'm notsaying that they're all 15
minutes because someone's likethey're not all that.
Yeah, I know that I'm notstupid, but on average it's
(13:55):
about 15 minutes.
How did you get out from thosethought processes?
Speaker 3 (14:01):
You know I talk about this in great detail in my book
, but what it comes down to isin 2012,.
At this point, I was a brandnew sergeant.
I'd been on with the civilianlaw enforcement for about eight
years.
I was a brand new sergeant.
I'd been on with the civilianlaw enforcement for about eight
years.
I was happily married, I had abeautiful daughter, I was
(14:22):
involved in an officer shootingand, unfortunately, I had to
take a life to not only save ourlives, but the lives of a
couple that were barricadedinside their bedroom.
And for me, this is my tippingpoint.
You know, up to that point, Ihad hundreds and hundreds of
traumatic incidents, but I nevertalked about them.
I didn't have that healthycommunication at home where I
was able to, you know, talk tomy wife at the time and share
these things that I was goingthrough and I was feeling.
(14:43):
And so, at this point, for fouryears after that shooting, I
suffered in silence.
I went through a federallawsuit.
I lost my marriage, I wasfighting for custody of my
daughter, I was starting to havemajor health issues, a lot of
other personal things werestarting to happen and literally
my life was falling apart.
(15:05):
In 2016, the federal trial ended.
So the trial was four yearsafter my shooting, and that's
when I really started puttingmyself in harm's way, trying to
get killed in the line of duty.
And it was a week afterThanksgiving that same year,
2016.
So a couple months after mytrial ended, my best friend, who
(15:27):
was a Vietnam veteran he was a35-year reserve officer with my
department.
He actually tried to killhimself when I was on duty and I
was able to see him just as theambulance brought him into the
trauma center.
And I remember waiting forhours in the hospital when he
was in emergency surgery, notknowing if he was going to make
it or not, and all I could thinkabout was my young daughter and
(15:49):
I started feeling thisoverwhelming sense of guilt.
You know, if she ever found outwhat happened to me, what would
be the effects on her and onher future children?
So a month after that is when Ifinally got the strength and
courage to ask for help.
But that's literally aftersuffering in silence for over
four years.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
I mean I can't.
I'm going to read your bookbecause this is such fascinating
stuff.
Obviously, I think the mentalhealth side.
I hope you understand what youtalked about the tipping point
of getting help.
One of the biggestmisconceptions is you go to
therapy.
You go there four to six weeks,you're all good and you go back
on your merry way, whichobviously it takes a lot longer
(16:31):
and it's a lot more difficult.
How was your experiencereaching out for help?
Did you reach out through apeer support?
Did you reach out through anyother way, or did you just go
get a therapist out of that?
Speaker 3 (16:41):
No, at the point that I asked for help I was
literally at rock bottom and Iknew that I needed to devote
100% of my time and effort intogetting better.
So I actually called theon-duty watch commander for my
agency and literally asked forhelp.
And you know, they initiallykind of tried to talk me out of
going through the officialroutes and maybe just taking a
few days off or going to see thedepartment contracted therapist
(17:05):
.
But I knew I needed much morethan that, and so I let them
know that I can't work right now, like I cannot be on the
streets, and so immediatelythey're extremely helpful.
I was able to find a culturallycompetent therapist clinician
who's worked with hundreds andhundreds of first responders
over her career, so she trulygot it.
(17:26):
And that set in a chain ofevents from, you know, peer
meetings that I didn't knowabout to the West Coast
post-trauma retreat that Ieventually went to.
You know, at that point I wasgoing to therapy literally twice
a week and you know therecovery process for me was well
over a year and a half.
(17:46):
And you know also, to be honest, there's things now that I have
to do every single day tomaintain my mental wellness, my
physical wellness, and so youknow I still go to therapy, but
instead of twice a week I goonce a month.
You know I do meditation everysingle day.
I practice gratitude with oneof my buddies who's either a
(18:11):
veteran or one who's still inlaw enforcement, where I'm able
to talk to either one of themand share, you know, things that
are going on and really have,you know, heart to heart
conversations, and so I don'twant anyone to think that
recovery from post-traumaticstress is you walk into a
therapist's office one day andthen you walk right out and
(18:31):
things are better.
That's not how it works, andusually it's a combination of a
lot of different things that ittakes to get better.
And you know I talk about thisin great detail with Dr Shauna
Springer, who is a psychologist.
She's culturally competent, sheworked for the Department of
Veterans Affairs, she's workedwith hundreds and hundreds of
combat veterans and firstresponders, and we show a
(18:55):
pathway to healing.
You know I personally talk aboutwhat worked for me, but we also
talk about what we've seen workfor other people as well, and
the key is you have to have anopen mind when it comes to this.
You can't put all your eggs inone basket and think that one
thing is going to work.
And I'll give you one simpleexample EMDR, which is very
(19:17):
popular.
A lot of therapists andclinicians use it.
You know I got exposed to thatat the West Coast Post Trauma
Retreat and I've had it done onme a couple times and it didn't
work.
I'll be honest with you.
But as a volunteer peer I'vegone back to West Coast post
trauma retreat and I've seen itwork on people time and time
again.
(19:37):
And that's just one littleexample of how, hey, that didn't
work for me, but how I've seenit work for a lot of other
people.
And that's where you have tohave that open mind and realize
that, okay, if something doesn'twork, that's okay.
It's not the end of the world.
There's literally hundreds ofother things that you can try
and explore to get better frompost-traumatic stress injury.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Practicing EMDR myself, I absolutely say that
the same thing it may not workfor you and people say why?
Well, I don't know Not aone-size-fits-all for everything
and you got to be veryopen-minded.
You talk about open-mindednessOne of the hardest things.
I started with law enforcementthrough a crisis team in mental
(20:22):
health in the early 2000s and Ievolved to where I'm at now
today.
You talked about open-minded In2004 and 2006,.
I was part of the Hug a Thugprogram because I would help
people in the community andslowly but surely, I've seen the
evolution and we're in 2025 nowand people are like open to
(20:43):
mental health.
However, I would say thatthere's still a third at least
that are still like why would Igo get mental health support?
So how do we tell lawenforcement in general that this
is not a punishment, this isnot a judgment on their part,
but rather make them feel betterin the long term so they can
survive this job, which isalready crazy, as it is no pun
(21:05):
intended, by the way.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
You know there's two approaches here.
But for the ones that are justcoming into the profession, we
have to have them buildrelationships with therapists
and clinicians early on, beforethese big incidents happen.
That way there's trust builtthere, there's understanding and
it becomes routine or becomesnormal that hey, twice a year or
(21:28):
once a quarter I'm going to gosee the department therapist or
I'm going to have my own, who isculturally competent, who I can
call up when I need to and beable to talk with them.
This also includes havingagencies or departments, having
some of these contractedtherapists.
Have them do ride alongs withpolice officers, have them be
(21:50):
exposed to the profession andtruly what we see and deal with.
But not only that.
When you have an officer and atherapist riding together in a
patrol car, that's where themagic's going to happen.
That's where you're going tobuild this relationship and this
trust and this comfort zonewhere you can really talk about
anything and everything.
And for the ones that have beendoing this job for decades and
(22:13):
don't believe in it, it's alittle bit more difficult.
But that's where we need peoplewho have gone to therapy or
gone through programs like WestCoast, post Trauma, retreat or
Save a Warrior, all these otherdifferent programs, and have
them speak openly about it totheir counterparts so they can
see that, yeah, these thingsactually work, that there's a
(22:34):
lot of great resources out there.
And it honestly starts withleadership.
I talk about this all the time,but leadership is at all levels
.
Whether it's a fire department,a police department, we've
always got new officers or newfirefighters coming in.
There's lots of turnover, andif you've been on the job six
(22:54):
months or a year and there's abrand new rookie starting, you
have leadership and you've beendoing this job longer than them.
And what we need is people tomodel this behavior and to lead
by example.
And so I always tell peoplethat if you want someone that
you supervise to come to youwhen they need help and to open
(23:15):
up, you have to first be willingto do the same, because no one
is going to trust you and noone's going to open up to you if
they don't know that youactually understand it and you
get it and that you've beenthere yourself.
And I'm telling you right nowthat if you've been doing this
job more than five years, youhave been there in some form or
capacity and this job hasaffected you.
(23:37):
It's affected your physicalhealth, your mental health, it's
affected your relationships,whether it's a dating
relationship, a marriage, apartnership, your children.
It does affect you, it doeschange you.
And so, again, you know, let'shave the chiefs of these
agencies, let's start with them,let's have them open up and be
honest and vulnerable in adepartment-wide setting.
(24:00):
You know, during a quarterlytraining, where they're talking
about mental health and they'retalking about resources, who
better to lead by example and behonest and real and tear down
this perfect image that we wantto portray, because it's not
real and it's only going to lastso long until it comes crashing
down.
But again, if you want someoneto be open, honest and
(24:24):
vulnerable, you have to first bewilling to do the same, and I
tell people this time and timeagain.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
You know there's so many things you said.
You mentioned culturalcompetency, like twice, and I
think that's part of the biggestproblem is that you know I find
that around here I still lookfor resources myself.
I am one of the resources but Ican't take on every client.
I got to find other therapistsand sometimes it's hard to find
those resources.
I mean it's nice to have peersupport groups that sometimes do
(24:54):
have that information, butwhere do we find that
information in general?
Because it's not easy.
Like you talk about going to thecommand officer or whatever.
But some people sometimesstruggle.
They don't want to go tocommand officer because, for the
record, leadership, like yousaid, I'll paraphrase a friend
of mine who is a police officerwho said you don't need to wear
bars to be a good leader in thisfield.
(25:16):
And so if, let's say, you don'twant to go to your sergeant,
your lieutenant, your captain,whatever, it doesn't matter like
barred people, how do we findresources?
I know it's particularly hardfor my guys out here in the
Northeast and I don't know howit is in the West Coast.
Speaker 3 (25:31):
Yeah, Well, first off , I'll tell you that in my book
here Relentless Courage, winningthe Battle Against Frontline
Trauma a couple of things.
The first thing is in the backof the book we have an entire
resource section which is vetted.
It has hotlines, text lineswhich are 100 percent
confidential.
They're free, they don't costany money and they're answered
(25:54):
by other first responders.
They're answered by people whoare specially trained, who have
been there, who have done it,and you can call or text these
numbers 24-7 in the privacy ofyour home, of your patrol car.
No one has to know about it,you don't have to notify anybody
in your chain of command.
And there's also tons ofdifferent programs that are free
(26:15):
.
You know week-long retreats formilitary veterans, for first
responders.
They have these all over thecountry.
The ones I've been to are WestCoast Post Trauma Retreat and
Save a Warrior, but there'sMighty Oaks Foundation.
I mean, there's tons of themand we list these in the book.
But there's also organizationsthat have links to culturally
(26:36):
competent clinicians andtherapists, that have links to
these peer meetings that I wastelling you about, where
literally they're discussionmeetings.
They're not associated with anyagency, they're run by
volunteers.
They're only open to firstresponders.
Every member is vetted and youcan go and literally be around
other people who are goingthrough exactly what you're
(26:59):
going through.
But what I tell people is thatwith our book Relentless Courage
, you can read it in the privacyof your home.
We have it on Audible.
We recorded it in our ownvoices and I'm going to tell you
right now.
I relived every single incidentwhen I recorded this, and so
it's like literally watching amovie.
It is intense, it's gripping,it's gut wrenching.
(27:21):
But this is where firstresponders are going to see that
they're not alone, because Ithought there was something
wrong with me.
I thought I was the only one, Ithought there was nobody who
would get what I was goingthrough.
And when you read this book orlisten to it, I'm going to tell
you right now, no matter ifyou're a paramedic, a dispatcher
, a firefighter, a policeofficer, you're going to say me
(27:44):
too, and you're going to besaying that through the entire
book.
And the beautiful thing aboutthis is this lays the foundation
for you to realize A you're notalone.
B that there is nothing wrongwith you, that everything that
you're experiencing, goingthrough, is actually normal,
considering all the abnormalthings that you've had to see
(28:07):
and deal with, and you're alsogoing to see that it's possible
to overcome this, it's possibleto get better.
I mean I'm living proof that,no matter how dark it gets and I
was there I was on the edgeliterally trying to kill myself,
and now I'm living a phenomenalwhole new life.
I mean I'm a better father nowthan I was.
(28:29):
I'm a better partner than I was.
I'm a better person than I was.
I look at the world differently.
And the other thing about thisis and this is the coolest thing
about this is I get messagesalmost daily from a lot of times
first responder spouses orpartners who read or listen to
this book and then they havetheir husband or wife or partner
(28:51):
read it and for the very firsttime in their relationship they
have a conversation about this.
Because that lays thefoundation on both sides to show
that what are the odds thatthis random guy in California is
telling my husband or wife'sstory here in Florida or New
York or Wyoming?
(29:12):
It doesn't matter, because it'sthe same story and we're all
going through the same stuff.
And so when I tell you thatthis book is saving lives, I
mean it's saving relationships,it's saving careers, but it's
saving lives all over the worldand there's no other book like
it and that's why, honestly,when you read it, you're going
(29:33):
to want another episode, becauseyou're going to have a thousand
things to talk about.
I mean it's going to wantanother episode because you're
going to have a thousand thingsto talk about.
I mean it's going to blow yoursocks off.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
A.
You will be re-invited and Iwill read the book and I love to
talk about it in more depth.
Number one.
Number two this is a serioussubject and I always enjoy being
serious around this becauseit's important, but I'm a little
looser usually.
But I get the seriousness ofthis and I'd love to read your
book and I will be getting itout of here.
We'll also link it in the shownotes so that people can go buy
(30:03):
it.
But for me, the other part too,about resources you talked
about a few things.
One of the things I say toyounger I'll always remember.
I shared this before on thepodcast.
I'll share it with you.
I had a guy who just started asa police officer, called me up
and he didn't say hi.
I said you know, steve speaking.
(30:23):
That's usually how I answer.
He goes are you going to takeaway my gun?
Like, do I have to take awayyour gun?
I have no clue who you are.
Why would I do that?
He's like well, I'm seeing atherapist.
I'm like that's not adisqualifying reason to hold not
hold a gun.
It's like okay.
And then he opened up and weended up having you know he
comes in every at this pointevery two months.
He's a young guy but he's like Iwant someone I can go to, that
(30:45):
I can trust, and one of thethings that became clear to me
as a therapist is that headdresses it Like sometimes
he'll call me hey, can you justgive me a quick 30 minutes?
Blah, blah, blah.
He's local, so he comes over ifhe can and what I've realized
is that when people address itright away it becomes acute
stress disorder, which is a lotmore manageable than
(31:05):
post-traumatic stress injuries.
And I kind of remind peoplethat that's why you got to have
those resources, start young andget those people you can trust.
And when you talk aboutresources, I really think that
the young kids we're getting Ithink at the state level it's
almost 40 hours a week now whenyou do the training at the Mass
(31:25):
State Trooper Academy, which isbetter than when I started,
which was four to eight hours ofmental health.
But I think that we got tocontinue just increasing those
resources and availability and abook like yours will just open
more eyes for those youngerpeople to look at and know that
it's okay to reach out for help.
Speaker 3 (31:43):
Absolutely.
And you bring up a great pointbecause I tell people all the
time that you know I waited fouryears to get help and I
honestly know that if I wouldhave sought help sooner, I'd
still be working right now.
Post-traumatic stress is not acareer ender and it doesn't mean
that you have to stop doingthis profession, this calling
that you love to do.
And, to your point, the soonerthat you seek help, the sooner
(32:07):
that you're going to get better.
And I tell people this all thetime.
You know I don't ever encourage, you know, retirement or
leaving the career field.
I miss it.
I miss it tremendously.
The only issue is that I had somuch damage that was done in
those four years that it took alot longer for me to get better.
And, like I said, you know it'snever too late to ask for help.
(32:29):
But on the flip side of that,the sooner you do, the sooner
you get better.
And you know the thing is now.
And to talk about talking andtherapy and all these and you
know the thing is now.
And to talk about talking andtherapy and all these things,
you know honestly, when I talkto my therapist now, it could be
about anything.
It could be about relationshipissues, it could be about
finances, it could be aboutissues with my daughter or with
(32:50):
my dog.
I mean, just, you know, we allhave stress, we all have things
that we go through and that'spart of life.
There's always going to be upsand downs, and so just having
that trusted person that isn'tgoing to judge you, that's not
going to hold anything againstyou, that you can reach out to
and just literally talk aboutanything and everything I mean
the power in that is, it's sofreeing, it's so healing, and I
(33:14):
can't encourage enough and, likeyou said, and build those
relationships early on, becausewhen my shooting happened I
didn't believe in peer support,I didn't have any resources that
I used.
I mean, my agency had all thesegreat resources on paper but
back then no one was using them,including myself, you know.
(33:35):
But nowadays things have changedand you truly do have
culturally competent clinicians.
And that's why I say that wordso much and so often, because
you know if you go to a regulartherapist, just a random
marriage family therapist, theymight honestly do more harm than
good.
And I've heard time and timeagain of first responders that
(33:58):
they went through their EAPprogram, they got assigned some
random therapist who has neverworked with first responders.
They go into the first meeting.
They end up traumatizing thatEAP therapist.
Then, you know, the firstresponder leaves pissed off,
vowing to never, ever go totherapy again.
I mean a horrible, horribleexperience.
(34:19):
And so again I mean something'sbetter than nothing.
But I'll tell anybody watchingthis or listening to this do
your research, interview thetherapist.
But not only that.
You know, like people, we don'talways get along or mesh with
people with differentpersonalities.
So you know, you may go togreat first responder therapist
(34:41):
but for whatever reason, youdon't feel a connection, you
don't feel a bond.
That's okay.
Find a different one that youfeel comfortable with, because
you literally have to trust thisperson with your life and
you've got to feel comfortablewith them.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
You read my mind.
That's exactly what I was goingto say too, I'm not everyone's
cup of tea and I'm fine withthat, and I know other people
who are culturally competentthat I can refer you to and
that's that's an option thatexists, you know, and you talked
about building the relationship.
I I've said to some of my firstresponders sometimes they're
like, come in and they, sorry,we're in the Northeast, so we
talk about football, baseball,hockey, and they start talking
(35:18):
about it Like, oh, I feel like Ispent 30 minutes on that.
I said, do you trust me?
Or you can feel you can talk tome about anything.
Yeah, kind of yeah, that'sbuilding the relationship.
That counts as therapy, and Ikind of remind people I don't
want to talk about baseballevery time no offense or hockey,
but I also want to build therelationship and there's got to
be an ability to do so.
So you know, as we wrap up here, when I have you back and I
(35:41):
will have you back, by the way,as long as you want to come back
I will read your book.
Is there anything else that youwant to share about the book
that people should know about sothey can go and get it and
really encourage them?
Because, resources, your storyis already very important to me,
but what else would you say?
That would be a great reason toget that book.
Speaker 3 (35:59):
Well, the book Will and Courage Winning the Battle
Against Frontline Trauma.
It's available online atWalmart, barnes and Noble, but
Amazon.
You can get it on paperback,hardcover, kindle or, my
favorite's, Audible.
I'm not much of a reader thesedays, people live busy lives but
an audible you can listen to inthe car, whether you're
(36:19):
commuting to work or you'reactually at work.
You can listen to it in thebathroom when you're getting
ready.
You can listen to it at the gym, so there's really no excuse
not to listen to it.
I get not reading Noteverybody's a reader but I will
tell you, and I promise this,that if you do read or listen to
it, I guarantee it will changeyour life.
(36:39):
And if you do, I want to hearfrom you.
I want you to personally reachout to me.
I'm on every social mediaplatform you can imagine.
I check my messages daily, Irespond to everybody and I make
myself available, and I trulywant to hear your thoughts.
I want to hear the impact thatit had on you, on your
relationships, on your career,on your life, and so I'm on
(37:03):
LinkedIn, I'm on Facebook,instagram, tiktok X, parler
Truth I mean, you name it, I'mon it.
Just type in Sergeant, you gotto put the Sergeant, sg Michael
Sugru, and they'll come up and,like I said, I promise I'll get
back to you.
I check my messages every singleday but, like I said, this book
(37:25):
is so unique because usuallyyou have to either pick, you
know, a gut-wrenching, true lifestory of a firefighter or
police officer, a veteran, andthat's all you get right, or you
have to go get a psychologytextbook, but in this case you
get everything wrapped up intoone.
And we haven't talked aboutchildhood trauma.
(37:46):
That's going to be on our nextinterview and I talk about this
in the book because this is hugeand first responders don't want
to talk about this here.
I was one of them, but we'regoing to talk about this.
The next episode, but thesecond half, doc Springer, like
I said, she comes in, sheexplains everything, breaks it
down, but very easy tounderstand terms.
I mean literally anyone on thestreet that's never met a first
(38:08):
responder before.
You're going to truly see thehuman side behind the badge and
the uniform.
I mean, it's just, I'm excitedabout this because it's going to
blow your mind, guaranteedRight.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
I mean we can talk about adverse childhood events a
long time.
I do that in my training when Ido CIT trainings out here and I
do it for the community, butevery police officer taking the
trainings doing the count, Isaid, oh how many of you get
over four.
(38:41):
They always look at me like youshouldn't have said that, but
the point is is that that playsa factor?
And, for the record, everyonewho could go on YouTube I
displayed that I bought theAudible.
I wanted to show that it'savailable, very affordable.
I will put all the show notes.
Number two more importantly,I've worked with you, michael,
just for a short amount of time,when we contacted each other, I
think through LinkedIn.
If I remember correctly, then Iwas following you on social
media, through Facebook, throughInstagram.
(39:04):
You've responded to everything.
You respond to my email.
So what he's saying is no BS,it is absolutely true.
So I wanted to put it out there, because sometimes people are
like, oh, I'm not good at beingnice to people, just to be nice,
but this is the truth.
He responded to everything wewrote today twice.
It took less than 15 minutes toget everything done for what we
(39:24):
needed for this interview.
We set up the interview,michael.
I will have you back on.
It's on my Audible now.
I will be listening to it andI'd love to have you back on.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (39:35):
Absolutely.
I look forward to it, thank you.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
Well, that completes episode 201.
Michael Sugru great interview.
Thank you so much, and I hopeyou join us for 202, where we'll
talk to Kevin Cormine.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
I think I got that right.
Please like, subscribe andfollow this podcast on your
favorite platform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful and, as a reminder, this
podcast is for informational,educational and entertainment
purposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
(40:11):
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action, where
strength meets strategy andcourage to help you move forward
.
Each week, your host, steveBisson, a therapist with over
two decades of experience in thefirst responder community,
brings you powerfulconversations about resilience,
growth and healing throughtrauma and grief.
Whether you're navigating thecomplex journey of grief,
(00:22):
processing trauma or seeking tobuild resilience in high-stress
environments, this podcast isyour trusted companion.
From first responders facingdaily challenges to emergency
personnel managing criticalsituations, to leaders carrying
the weight of difficultdecisions, we're here to support
your journey.
Through authentic interviews,expert discussions and
(00:43):
real-world experiences, we divedeep into the heart of human
resilience.
We explore crucial topics liketrauma recovery, grief
processing, stress managementand emotional well-being.
Our conversations bridge thegap between professional insight
and practical application,offering you tools and
strategies that work in the realworld.
(01:03):
Join us as we create a spacewhere healing is possible, where
grief finds understanding andwhere resilience becomes your
foundation for growth.
This is Resilience Developmentin Action with Steve Bisson.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Bienvenue and welcome to episode 201.
If you haven't listened toepisode 200, which was the
premier episode of ResilienceDevelopment in Action, it was
with Charlie Powell, so pleasego back and listen to it.
But episode 201 would besomeone that I met through
Facebook and I was really happyto meet this individual and I
can't wait for you to hear theinterview.
Michael Sugru began his lawenforcement career in the United
(01:39):
States Air Force as a securityforces officer in the United
States Air Force as a securityforces officer and then Michael
served in a variety ofassignments, including flight
leader, flight commander, seniorwatch officer and chief of
command post and chief ofsecurity forces.
Michael served all over theUnited States, europe, the
Middle East and South America.
Immediately after the Air Force, he joined the Walnut Creek
(02:01):
Police Department where heserved in a variety of
assignments, from patrol officerto driver training instructor
to field training officer,undercover detective, public
information and patrol sergeant.
Michael ultimately medicallyretired and he's going to share
that on the podcast, and Michaelis dedicated to advocate for
awareness and prevention forpost-traumatic stress injury and
(02:26):
first responder suicideprevention.
Michael continues to speak atmilitary units and law
enforcement agencies all overthe United States and please go
and find him if you can.
But here's the interview.
Getfreeai yes, you've heard metalk about it previously in
(02:47):
other episodes, but I'm going totalk about it again because get
freeai is just a great service.
Imagine being able to payattention to your clients all
the time, instead of writingnotes and making sure that the
note's going to sound good andhow are you going to write that
note, and things like that.
Getfreeai liberates you frommaking sure that you're writing
(03:07):
what the client is saying,because it is keeping track of
what you're saying and willcreate, after the end of every
session, a progress note.
But it goes above and beyondthat.
Not only does it create aprogress note, it also gives you
suggestions for goals, givesyou even a mental status if
you've asked questions aroundthat, as well as being able to
(03:29):
write a letter for your clientto know what you talked about.
So that's the great, greatthing.
It saves me time, it saves me alot of aggravation and it just
speeds up the progress noteprocess so well.
And for $99 a month.
I know that that's nothing.
That's worth my time.
That's worth my money, you know.
(03:50):
The best part of it, too, isthat if you want to go and put
in the code Steve50 when you getthe service at the checkout
code is Steve50, you get $50 offyour first month and if you get
a whole year year, you save awhole 10% for the whole year.
So again, steve 50.
At checkout for get free, aiwill give you $50 off for the
(04:12):
first month and, like I said,get a full year, get 10% off.
Get free from writing notes,get freed from always scribbling
while you're talking to aclient and just paying attention
to your client.
So they went out, you went out,everybody wins and I think that
this is the greatest thing.
And if you're up to a pointwhere you got to change a
treatment plan, well, the goalsare generated for you.
(04:34):
So getfreeai code Steve50 tosave $50 on your first month.
Well, welcome to episode 201 ofResilience Development in Action
.
I'm so happy to have MichaelSugru here.
Michael has a great story.
I've listened to podcasts thathe's been on.
I didn't buy his book yet, justbeing honest, but I'm going to
(04:58):
get his book.
I've also looked at a lot ofhis experience between the
military, being a police andthen having to have a
post-traumatic stress injury andworking on the stigma.
I mean I thought he was perfectfor this podcast.
So, michael, welcome toResilience Development in Action
.
Thanks for having me on.
Well, like I said, I looked itup a little bit, obviously, and
(05:21):
you send me your notes.
We talked a little bit beforethe interview, but how about you
introduce yourself to myaudience?
Speaker 3 (05:27):
yeah, I'm originally from the san francisco bay area,
which is where I live now.
Um, right after college, I wentstraight into the air force,
was commissioned an officer insecurity forces, which is
basically law enforcement,anti-terrorism force protection,
air-based ground defense.
I served six and a half yearsall over the world South America
(05:49):
, the Middle East, europe, gotout in 2004 as a captain and I
went straight into civilian lawenforcement here in the San
Francisco Bay Area for theWalnut Creek Police Department.
There I served 14 years avariety of assignments, from
patrol officer, field trainingofficer, detective.
(06:10):
I was undercover on aCalifornia state drug task force
, was a sergeant and also apublic information officer.
I actually medically retired in2018 due to post-traumatic
stress injury and now that I'mretired, I speak all over the
country on suicide awareness andprevention, trauma exposure,
(06:35):
resiliency basically teachingthose to ask for help when they
need it and to not let thestigma prevent them from doing
so.
Part of my story that I talkabout is I almost became one of
the suicide statistics, which isthe number one killer for all
first responders.
So law enforcement,firefighters, paramedics,
(06:59):
dispatchers, and so now I'm on amission to smash the stigma, as
I say, and show the human side,behind the badge and the
uniform.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
You know I saw the stats.
I know this is going to comeout in about mid-April.
I saw the stats I think you putout recently about how we
already have like 13 suicidesamong police officers already
this year.
And we're at the end of Marchwhen we're recording this,
already this year and we're atthe end of March when we're
recording this.
It's really fascinating to mehow we don't pay attention to
this tragedy because of thestress either from
(07:31):
post-traumatic stress, injury orother stressors that come with
the job, because there's so many.
Why do you think the numbersare so high in general with the
suicide rate?
Not only the effectiveness ofusually use a firearm, but what
else is the reason why we haveso many high suicide rates among
police officers?
Speaker 3 (07:49):
You know, part of it's the culture from day one in
the police academy.
We're taught to, you know, notexpress feelings, not show
emotion, that we have to beinvincible, we have to be the
ones to run towards danger wheneverybody else is running away
from it.
And you know it's just not whatwe're taught.
We're taught firearms,defensive tactics, use of force,
(08:10):
emergency vehicle operations,criminal law, report writing all
these things that we spendnearly almost a thousand hours
on just in the academy.
And then, if we talk about oncewe start our career, I mean
thousands and thousands oftraining hours, but we spend
little to no time talking aboutthe number one threat, which is
(08:32):
ourselves.
You know, the other factorwhich this applies to
firefighters and paramedics anddispatchers as well is just the
level of trauma that we'reexposed to.
If you look at an averageperson, you know they may have
one or two traumatic incidentsin an entire lifetime.
But for law enforcement,firefighters, paramedics,
(08:54):
dispatchers we're talkinghundreds and hundreds of
traumatic incidents.
I mean there's differentestimates, but I would say, on a
conservative side, well over500 traumatic incidents in a
career, and you can take thatnumber up to well over a
thousand, especially now whenyou start talking about here in
California.
You know the retirement age isnow 57.
(09:16):
So if you have somebodystarting out at 21 years old and
they work till they're 57, youknow, simply do the math of the.
You know, just call after calland in some days in a single
shift you can be exposed tomultiple traumatic incidents.
And so literally one day onshift is more than most people
experience in their entirelifetime.
(09:37):
And you know we're taught tobrush everything off, to not
internalize it, and basically,you know we tell ourselves that,
hey, we don't know these people, there's no attachment here, we
don't get involved, it's ourjob, and that only works for so
long.
But the reality is that youknow the humanity of what we
(09:58):
have to see and deal with.
It takes a toll and what I'madvocating for is to normalize
having these conversations afterthese traumatic incidents and
not waiting to the point whereit's too late.
It was almost too late, youknow, for me.
But the other thing that I wantto bring up too, and you
mentioned this in the beginning,on the suicide numbers even the
(10:20):
best numbers that we have,they're way underreported.
Best numbers that we have,they're way underreported.
First, help is really the onlygroup I know about.
It's a nonprofit that'stracking these numbers, for it
used to be only law enforcementand a couple of years ago they
started with firefighters,dispatchers and paramedics.
And since 2016, when they'vebeen tracking these numbers,
(10:41):
we're already over 2000 lawenforcement suicide alone and on
average, we're talking aboutanywhere from 120 to over 200 a
year that we know about.
So take that number, maybetimes that by three or four, we
might get a real number, andwe're not even talking about
those that retire.
(11:01):
You know, those numbers thatare tracked are for the ones
that are still active duty orthe ones that are still working
and, as we know, a lot of thesesuicides happen when we hang up
that badge and that uniform andwe're no longer operational.
We no longer have this identityas a firefighter or a police
officer, dispatcher or paramedic.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
I mean, I talk about that with all my retirees who
are?
going to retire that you losethat role and, oh no, I'll be
fine.
I'll be fine.
But there's something aboutthat role that really you carry
throughout your life, whetherit's off-duty or even in
retirement, and sometimes that'svery heavy for them to carry.
I don't know what yourexperience has been, but I've
(11:44):
seen so many people die eithernatural causes or suicide or
something like that, after theyretire because they just lost
themselves.
I don't know if that's yourexperience, but certainly I've
seen that in my career.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
Absolutely.
I've seen it in my career.
I see it in my work with theWest Coast Post Trauma Retreat
Center.
I speak all over the country, Ihear about these incidents, I
talk to other people.
But the other thing too is howmany on-d duty accidents and
I'll give you an example, like apatrol car where the officer is
not wearing their seatbelt intoa tree or into a sound wall, um
(12:22):
, or how many firefighters youknow run into a building or go
on a roof which they know isgoing to collapse, hoping that
they die in the line of duty.
And again, I'm not saying thatit's one or the other, but
sometimes it can be both.
And in my case, those are thethings that I thought about,
where I never had an active planto kill myself, but I was
(12:45):
trying to get killed in the lineof duty, and for me, that
reason was because I knew, ifthat happened, my family was
going to be taken care of.
My young daughter would alwaysremember who her father was, and
my brothers and sisters wouldstep up and make sure she knew
who her father was, because I'dbe remembered, I'd be honored,
and that's the thing that wehave to think about as well is
(13:07):
that sometimes these suicidesaren't obvious.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
I mean, I, you know, I've had someone confess to me
that going into a meth lab areawithout the proper gear and
hopefully you inhale the rightthings at the right time I've
heard the whole carbon monoxidegoing into a building where you
know carbon monoxide poisoningisn't just so that you look
accidentally that you died.
So these are not like fakestories, these are all real
(13:33):
stories.
When I hear your story I'malways fascinated by that.
What kept you alive?
Essentially Because that'salways kind of like difficult
for most people to say.
You know, most suicidalthoughts last for around 15
minutes.
That's my training and I'm notsaying that they're all 15
minutes because someone's likethey're not all that.
Yeah, I know that I'm notstupid, but on average it's
(13:55):
about 15 minutes.
How did you get out from thosethought processes?
Speaker 3 (14:01):
You know I talk about this in great detail in my book
, but what it comes down to isin 2012,.
At this point, I was a brandnew sergeant.
I'd been on with the civilianlaw enforcement for about eight
years.
I was a brand new sergeant.
I'd been on with the civilianlaw enforcement for about eight
years.
I was happily married, I had abeautiful daughter, I was
(14:22):
involved in an officer shootingand, unfortunately, I had to
take a life to not only save ourlives, but the lives of a
couple that were barricadedinside their bedroom.
And for me, this is my tippingpoint.
You know, up to that point, Ihad hundreds and hundreds of
traumatic incidents, but I nevertalked about them.
I didn't have that healthycommunication at home where I
was able to, you know, talk tomy wife at the time and share
these things that I was goingthrough and I was feeling.
(14:43):
And so, at this point, for fouryears after that shooting, I
suffered in silence.
I went through a federallawsuit.
I lost my marriage, I wasfighting for custody of my
daughter, I was starting to havemajor health issues, a lot of
other personal things werestarting to happen and literally
my life was falling apart.
(15:05):
In 2016, the federal trial ended.
So the trial was four yearsafter my shooting, and that's
when I really started puttingmyself in harm's way, trying to
get killed in the line of duty.
And it was a week afterThanksgiving that same year,
2016.
So a couple months after mytrial ended, my best friend, who
(15:27):
was a Vietnam veteran he was a35-year reserve officer with my
department.
He actually tried to killhimself when I was on duty and I
was able to see him just as theambulance brought him into the
trauma center.
And I remember waiting forhours in the hospital when he
was in emergency surgery, notknowing if he was going to make
it or not, and all I could thinkabout was my young daughter and
(15:49):
I started feeling thisoverwhelming sense of guilt.
You know, if she ever found outwhat happened to me, what would
be the effects on her and onher future children?
So a month after that is when Ifinally got the strength and
courage to ask for help.
But that's literally aftersuffering in silence for over
four years.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
I mean I can't.
I'm going to read your bookbecause this is such fascinating
stuff.
Obviously, I think the mentalhealth side.
I hope you understand what youtalked about the tipping point
of getting help.
One of the biggestmisconceptions is you go to
therapy.
You go there four to six weeks,you're all good and you go back
on your merry way, whichobviously it takes a lot longer
(16:31):
and it's a lot more difficult.
How was your experiencereaching out for help?
Did you reach out through apeer support?
Did you reach out through anyother way, or did you just go
get a therapist out of that?
Speaker 3 (16:41):
No, at the point that I asked for help I was
literally at rock bottom and Iknew that I needed to devote
100% of my time and effort intogetting better.
So I actually called theon-duty watch commander for my
agency and literally asked forhelp.
And you know, they initiallykind of tried to talk me out of
going through the officialroutes and maybe just taking a
few days off or going to see thedepartment contracted therapist
(17:05):
.
But I knew I needed much morethan that, and so I let them
know that I can't work right now, like I cannot be on the
streets, and so immediatelythey're extremely helpful.
I was able to find a culturallycompetent therapist clinician
who's worked with hundreds andhundreds of first responders
over her career, so she trulygot it.
(17:26):
And that set in a chain ofevents from, you know, peer
meetings that I didn't knowabout to the West Coast
post-trauma retreat that Ieventually went to.
You know, at that point I wasgoing to therapy literally twice
a week and you know therecovery process for me was well
over a year and a half.
(17:46):
And you know also, to be honest, there's things now that I have
to do every single day tomaintain my mental wellness, my
physical wellness, and so youknow I still go to therapy, but
instead of twice a week I goonce a month.
You know I do meditation everysingle day.
I practice gratitude with oneof my buddies who's either a
(18:11):
veteran or one who's still inlaw enforcement, where I'm able
to talk to either one of themand share, you know, things that
are going on and really have,you know, heart to heart
conversations, and so I don'twant anyone to think that
recovery from post-traumaticstress is you walk into a
therapist's office one day andthen you walk right out and
(18:31):
things are better.
That's not how it works, andusually it's a combination of a
lot of different things that ittakes to get better.
And you know I talk about thisin great detail with Dr Shauna
Springer, who is a psychologist.
She's culturally competent, sheworked for the Department of
Veterans Affairs, she's workedwith hundreds and hundreds of
combat veterans and firstresponders, and we show a
(18:55):
pathway to healing.
You know I personally talk aboutwhat worked for me, but we also
talk about what we've seen workfor other people as well, and
the key is you have to have anopen mind when it comes to this.
You can't put all your eggs inone basket and think that one
thing is going to work.
And I'll give you one simpleexample EMDR, which is very
(19:17):
popular.
A lot of therapists andclinicians use it.
You know I got exposed to thatat the West Coast Post Trauma
Retreat and I've had it done onme a couple times and it didn't
work.
I'll be honest with you.
But as a volunteer peer I'vegone back to West Coast post
trauma retreat and I've seen itwork on people time and time
again.
(19:37):
And that's just one littleexample of how, hey, that didn't
work for me, but how I've seenit work for a lot of other
people.
And that's where you have tohave that open mind and realize
that, okay, if something doesn'twork, that's okay.
It's not the end of the world.
There's literally hundreds ofother things that you can try
and explore to get better frompost-traumatic stress injury.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Practicing EMDR myself, I absolutely say that
the same thing it may not workfor you and people say why?
Well, I don't know Not aone-size-fits-all for everything
and you got to be veryopen-minded.
You talk about open-mindednessOne of the hardest things.
I started with law enforcementthrough a crisis team in mental
(20:22):
health in the early 2000s and Ievolved to where I'm at now
today.
You talked about open-minded In2004 and 2006,.
I was part of the Hug a Thugprogram because I would help
people in the community andslowly but surely, I've seen the
evolution and we're in 2025 nowand people are like open to
(20:43):
mental health.
However, I would say thatthere's still a third at least
that are still like why would Igo get mental health support?
So how do we tell lawenforcement in general that this
is not a punishment, this isnot a judgment on their part,
but rather make them feel betterin the long term so they can
survive this job, which isalready crazy, as it is no pun
(21:05):
intended, by the way.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
You know there's two approaches here.
But for the ones that are justcoming into the profession, we
have to have them buildrelationships with therapists
and clinicians early on, beforethese big incidents happen.
That way there's trust builtthere, there's understanding and
it becomes routine or becomesnormal that hey, twice a year or
(21:28):
once a quarter I'm going to gosee the department therapist or
I'm going to have my own, who isculturally competent, who I can
call up when I need to and beable to talk with them.
This also includes havingagencies or departments, having
some of these contractedtherapists.
Have them do ride alongs withpolice officers, have them be
(21:50):
exposed to the profession andtruly what we see and deal with.
But not only that.
When you have an officer and atherapist riding together in a
patrol car, that's where themagic's going to happen.
That's where you're going tobuild this relationship and this
trust and this comfort zonewhere you can really talk about
anything and everything.
And for the ones that have beendoing this job for decades and
(22:13):
don't believe in it, it's alittle bit more difficult.
But that's where we need peoplewho have gone to therapy or
gone through programs like WestCoast, post Trauma, retreat or
Save a Warrior, all these otherdifferent programs, and have
them speak openly about it totheir counterparts so they can
see that, yeah, these thingsactually work, that there's a
(22:34):
lot of great resources out there.
And it honestly starts withleadership.
I talk about this all the time,but leadership is at all levels
.
Whether it's a fire department,a police department, we've
always got new officers or newfirefighters coming in.
There's lots of turnover, andif you've been on the job six
(22:54):
months or a year and there's abrand new rookie starting, you
have leadership and you've beendoing this job longer than them.
And what we need is people tomodel this behavior and to lead
by example.
And so I always tell peoplethat if you want someone that
you supervise to come to youwhen they need help and to open
(23:15):
up, you have to first be willingto do the same, because no one
is going to trust you and noone's going to open up to you if
they don't know that youactually understand it and you
get it and that you've beenthere yourself.
And I'm telling you right nowthat if you've been doing this
job more than five years, youhave been there in some form or
capacity and this job hasaffected you.
(23:37):
It's affected your physicalhealth, your mental health, it's
affected your relationships,whether it's a dating
relationship, a marriage, apartnership, your children.
It does affect you, it doeschange you.
And so, again, you know, let'shave the chiefs of these
agencies, let's start with them,let's have them open up and be
honest and vulnerable in adepartment-wide setting.
(24:00):
You know, during a quarterlytraining, where they're talking
about mental health and they'retalking about resources, who
better to lead by example and behonest and real and tear down
this perfect image that we wantto portray, because it's not
real and it's only going to lastso long until it comes crashing
down.
But again, if you want someoneto be open, honest and
(24:24):
vulnerable, you have to first bewilling to do the same, and I
tell people this time and timeagain.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
You know there's so many things you said.
You mentioned culturalcompetency, like twice, and I
think that's part of the biggestproblem is that you know I find
that around here I still lookfor resources myself.
I am one of the resources but Ican't take on every client.
I got to find other therapistsand sometimes it's hard to find
those resources.
I mean it's nice to have peersupport groups that sometimes do
(24:54):
have that information, butwhere do we find that
information in general?
Because it's not easy.
Like you talk about going to thecommand officer or whatever.
But some people sometimesstruggle.
They don't want to go tocommand officer because, for the
record, leadership, like yousaid, I'll paraphrase a friend
of mine who is a police officerwho said you don't need to wear
bars to be a good leader in thisfield.
(25:16):
And so if, let's say, you don'twant to go to your sergeant,
your lieutenant, your captain,whatever, it doesn't matter like
barred people, how do we findresources?
I know it's particularly hardfor my guys out here in the
Northeast and I don't know howit is in the West Coast.
Speaker 3 (25:31):
Yeah, Well, first off , I'll tell you that in my book
here Relentless Courage, winningthe Battle Against Frontline
Trauma a couple of things.
The first thing is in the backof the book we have an entire
resource section which is vetted.
It has hotlines, text lineswhich are 100 percent
confidential.
They're free, they don't costany money and they're answered
(25:54):
by other first responders.
They're answered by people whoare specially trained, who have
been there, who have done it,and you can call or text these
numbers 24-7 in the privacy ofyour home, of your patrol car.
No one has to know about it,you don't have to notify anybody
in your chain of command.
And there's also tons ofdifferent programs that are free
(26:15):
.
You know week-long retreats formilitary veterans, for first
responders.
They have these all over thecountry.
The ones I've been to are WestCoast Post Trauma Retreat and
Save a Warrior, but there'sMighty Oaks Foundation.
I mean, there's tons of themand we list these in the book.
But there's also organizationsthat have links to culturally
(26:36):
competent clinicians andtherapists, that have links to
these peer meetings that I wastelling you about, where
literally they're discussionmeetings.
They're not associated with anyagency, they're run by
volunteers.
They're only open to firstresponders.
Every member is vetted and youcan go and literally be around
other people who are goingthrough exactly what you're
(26:59):
going through.
But what I tell people is thatwith our book Relentless Courage
, you can read it in the privacyof your home.
We have it on Audible.
We recorded it in our ownvoices and I'm going to tell you
right now.
I relived every single incidentwhen I recorded this, and so
it's like literally watching amovie.
It is intense, it's gripping,it's gut wrenching.
(27:21):
But this is where firstresponders are going to see that
they're not alone, because Ithought there was something
wrong with me.
I thought I was the only one, Ithought there was nobody who
would get what I was goingthrough.
And when you read this book orlisten to it, I'm going to tell
you right now, no matter ifyou're a paramedic, a dispatcher
, a firefighter, a policeofficer, you're going to say me
(27:44):
too, and you're going to besaying that through the entire
book.
And the beautiful thing aboutthis is this lays the foundation
for you to realize A you're notalone.
B that there is nothing wrongwith you, that everything that
you're experiencing, goingthrough, is actually normal,
considering all the abnormalthings that you've had to see
(28:07):
and deal with, and you're alsogoing to see that it's possible
to overcome this, it's possibleto get better.
I mean I'm living proof that,no matter how dark it gets and I
was there I was on the edgeliterally trying to kill myself,
and now I'm living a phenomenalwhole new life.
I mean I'm a better father nowthan I was.
(28:29):
I'm a better partner than I was.
I'm a better person than I was.
I look at the world differently.
And the other thing about thisis and this is the coolest thing
about this is I get messagesalmost daily from a lot of times
first responder spouses orpartners who read or listen to
this book and then they havetheir husband or wife or partner
(28:51):
read it and for the very firsttime in their relationship they
have a conversation about this.
Because that lays thefoundation on both sides to show
that what are the odds thatthis random guy in California is
telling my husband or wife'sstory here in Florida or New
York or Wyoming?
(29:12):
It doesn't matter, because it'sthe same story and we're all
going through the same stuff.
And so when I tell you thatthis book is saving lives, I
mean it's saving relationships,it's saving careers, but it's
saving lives all over the worldand there's no other book like
it and that's why, honestly,when you read it, you're going
(29:33):
to want another episode, becauseyou're going to have a thousand
things to talk about.
I mean it's going to wantanother episode because you're
going to have a thousand thingsto talk about.
I mean it's going to blow yoursocks off.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
A.
You will be re-invited and Iwill read the book and I love to
talk about it in more depth.
Number one.
Number two this is a serioussubject and I always enjoy being
serious around this becauseit's important, but I'm a little
looser usually.
But I get the seriousness ofthis and I'd love to read your
book and I will be getting itout of here.
We'll also link it in the shownotes so that people can go buy
(30:03):
it.
But for me, the other part too,about resources you talked
about a few things.
One of the things I say toyounger I'll always remember.
I shared this before on thepodcast.
I'll share it with you.
I had a guy who just started asa police officer, called me up
and he didn't say hi.
I said you know, steve speaking.
(30:23):
That's usually how I answer.
He goes are you going to takeaway my gun?
Like, do I have to take awayyour gun?
I have no clue who you are.
Why would I do that?
He's like well, I'm seeing atherapist.
I'm like that's not adisqualifying reason to hold not
hold a gun.
It's like okay.
And then he opened up and weended up having you know he
comes in every at this pointevery two months.
He's a young guy but he's like Iwant someone I can go to, that
(30:45):
I can trust, and one of thethings that became clear to me
as a therapist is that headdresses it Like sometimes
he'll call me hey, can you justgive me a quick 30 minutes?
Blah, blah, blah.
He's local, so he comes over ifhe can and what I've realized
is that when people address itright away it becomes acute
stress disorder, which is a lotmore manageable than
(31:05):
post-traumatic stress injuries.
And I kind of remind peoplethat that's why you got to have
those resources, start young andget those people you can trust.
And when you talk aboutresources, I really think that
the young kids we're getting Ithink at the state level it's
almost 40 hours a week now whenyou do the training at the Mass
(31:25):
State Trooper Academy, which isbetter than when I started,
which was four to eight hours ofmental health.
But I think that we got tocontinue just increasing those
resources and availability and abook like yours will just open
more eyes for those youngerpeople to look at and know that
it's okay to reach out for help.
Speaker 3 (31:43):
Absolutely.
And you bring up a great pointbecause I tell people all the
time that you know I waited fouryears to get help and I
honestly know that if I wouldhave sought help sooner, I'd
still be working right now.
Post-traumatic stress is not acareer ender and it doesn't mean
that you have to stop doingthis profession, this calling
that you love to do.
And, to your point, the soonerthat you seek help, the sooner
(32:07):
that you're going to get better.
And I tell people this all thetime.
You know I don't ever encourage, you know, retirement or
leaving the career field.
I miss it.
I miss it tremendously.
The only issue is that I had somuch damage that was done in
those four years that it took alot longer for me to get better.
And, like I said, you know it'snever too late to ask for help.
(32:29):
But on the flip side of that,the sooner you do, the sooner
you get better.
And you know the thing is now.
And to talk about talking andtherapy and all these and you
know the thing is now.
And to talk about talking andtherapy and all these things,
you know honestly, when I talkto my therapist now, it could be
about anything.
It could be about relationshipissues, it could be about
finances, it could be aboutissues with my daughter or with
(32:50):
my dog.
I mean, just, you know, we allhave stress, we all have things
that we go through and that'spart of life.
There's always going to be upsand downs, and so just having
that trusted person that isn'tgoing to judge you, that's not
going to hold anything againstyou, that you can reach out to
and just literally talk aboutanything and everything I mean
the power in that is, it's sofreeing, it's so healing, and I
(33:14):
can't encourage enough and, likeyou said, and build those
relationships early on, becausewhen my shooting happened I
didn't believe in peer support,I didn't have any resources that
I used.
I mean, my agency had all thesegreat resources on paper but
back then no one was using them,including myself, you know.
(33:35):
But nowadays things have changedand you truly do have
culturally competent clinicians.
And that's why I say that wordso much and so often, because
you know if you go to a regulartherapist, just a random
marriage family therapist, theymight honestly do more harm than
good.
And I've heard time and timeagain of first responders that
(33:58):
they went through their EAPprogram, they got assigned some
random therapist who has neverworked with first responders.
They go into the first meeting.
They end up traumatizing thatEAP therapist.
Then, you know, the firstresponder leaves pissed off,
vowing to never, ever go totherapy again.
I mean a horrible, horribleexperience.
(34:19):
And so again I mean something'sbetter than nothing.
But I'll tell anybody watchingthis or listening to this do
your research, interview thetherapist.
But not only that.
You know, like people, we don'talways get along or mesh with
people with differentpersonalities.
So you know, you may go togreat first responder therapist
(34:41):
but for whatever reason, youdon't feel a connection, you
don't feel a bond.
That's okay.
Find a different one that youfeel comfortable with, because
you literally have to trust thisperson with your life and
you've got to feel comfortablewith them.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
You read my mind.
That's exactly what I was goingto say too, I'm not everyone's
cup of tea and I'm fine withthat, and I know other people
who are culturally competentthat I can refer you to and
that's that's an option thatexists, you know, and you talked
about building the relationship.
I I've said to some of my firstresponders sometimes they're
like, come in and they, sorry,we're in the Northeast, so we
talk about football, baseball,hockey, and they start talking
(35:18):
about it Like, oh, I feel like Ispent 30 minutes on that.
I said, do you trust me?
Or you can feel you can talk tome about anything.
Yeah, kind of yeah, that'sbuilding the relationship.
That counts as therapy, and Ikind of remind people I don't
want to talk about baseballevery time no offense or hockey,
but I also want to build therelationship and there's got to
be an ability to do so.
So you know, as we wrap up here, when I have you back and I
(35:41):
will have you back, by the way,as long as you want to come back
I will read your book.
Is there anything else that youwant to share about the book
that people should know about sothey can go and get it and
really encourage them?
Because, resources, your storyis already very important to me,
but what else would you say?
That would be a great reason toget that book.
Speaker 3 (35:59):
Well, the book Will and Courage Winning the Battle
Against Frontline Trauma.
It's available online atWalmart, barnes and Noble, but
Amazon.
You can get it on paperback,hardcover, kindle or, my
favorite's, Audible.
I'm not much of a reader thesedays, people live busy lives but
an audible you can listen to inthe car, whether you're
(36:19):
commuting to work or you'reactually at work.
You can listen to it in thebathroom when you're getting
ready.
You can listen to it at the gym, so there's really no excuse
not to listen to it.
I get not reading Noteverybody's a reader but I will
tell you, and I promise this,that if you do read or listen to
it, I guarantee it will changeyour life.
(36:39):
And if you do, I want to hearfrom you.
I want you to personally reachout to me.
I'm on every social mediaplatform you can imagine.
I check my messages daily, Irespond to everybody and I make
myself available, and I trulywant to hear your thoughts.
I want to hear the impact thatit had on you, on your
relationships, on your career,on your life, and so I'm on
(37:03):
LinkedIn, I'm on Facebook,instagram, tiktok X, parler
Truth I mean, you name it, I'mon it.
Just type in Sergeant, you gotto put the Sergeant, sg Michael
Sugru, and they'll come up and,like I said, I promise I'll get
back to you.
I check my messages every singleday but, like I said, this book
(37:25):
is so unique because usuallyyou have to either pick, you
know, a gut-wrenching, true lifestory of a firefighter or
police officer, a veteran, andthat's all you get right, or you
have to go get a psychologytextbook, but in this case you
get everything wrapped up intoone.
And we haven't talked aboutchildhood trauma.
(37:46):
That's going to be on our nextinterview and I talk about this
in the book because this is hugeand first responders don't want
to talk about this here.
I was one of them, but we'regoing to talk about this.
The next episode, but thesecond half, doc Springer, like
I said, she comes in, sheexplains everything, breaks it
down, but very easy tounderstand terms.
I mean literally anyone on thestreet that's never met a first
(38:08):
responder before.
You're going to truly see thehuman side behind the badge and
the uniform.
I mean, it's just, I'm excitedabout this because it's going to
blow your mind, guaranteedRight.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
I mean we can talk about adverse childhood events a
long time.
I do that in my training when Ido CIT trainings out here and I
do it for the community, butevery police officer taking the
trainings doing the count, Isaid, oh how many of you get
over four.
(38:41):
They always look at me like youshouldn't have said that, but
the point is is that that playsa factor?
And, for the record, everyonewho could go on YouTube I
displayed that I bought theAudible.
I wanted to show that it'savailable, very affordable.
I will put all the show notes.
Number two more importantly,I've worked with you, michael,
just for a short amount of time,when we contacted each other, I
think through LinkedIn.
If I remember correctly, then Iwas following you on social
media, through Facebook, throughInstagram.
(39:04):
You've responded to everything.
You respond to my email.
So what he's saying is no BS,it is absolutely true.
So I wanted to put it out there, because sometimes people are
like, oh, I'm not good at beingnice to people, just to be nice,
but this is the truth.
He responded to everything wewrote today twice.
It took less than 15 minutes toget everything done for what we
(39:24):
needed for this interview.
We set up the interview,michael.
I will have you back on.
It's on my Audible now.
I will be listening to it andI'd love to have you back on.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (39:35):
Absolutely.
I look forward to it, thank you.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
Well, that completes episode 201.
Michael Sugru great interview.
Thank you so much, and I hopeyou join us for 202, where we'll
talk to Kevin Cormine.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
I think I got that right.
Please like, subscribe andfollow this podcast on your
favorite platform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful and, as a reminder, this
podcast is for informational,educational and entertainment
purposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
(40:11):
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
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