May 7, 2025 • 39 mins
The journey from outward success to inner collapse—and the path back to authentic living—takes center stage in this compelling conversation with Nick Jonsson, international bestselling author and executive coach.
Nick's story begins with transformation through adversity when a motorcycle accident in his twenties forced him from construction work to academia, eventually propelling him up the corporate ladder in Southeast Asia. Yet reaching the executive summit—complete with five-story house, drivers, and staff—marked not fulfillment but the beginning of his fall. "That was when I was the most ungrateful and sort of unhappy ever in my life," Nick reveals with striking candor.
What followed was a three-year spiral into alcoholism, isolation, and despair as Nick traded his gym membership for a bar stool and healthy habits for fast food. His powerful description of addiction as "slow, gradual suicide" highlights how corporate culture often enables destructive behaviors while simultaneously isolating those suffering. As Nick explains, executives—particularly expatriates—face unique challenges navigating cultural differences while maintaining authentic connections.
The conversation takes a powerful turn when Nick shares how vulnerability became his salvation. Opening up to his now-second wife began his recovery journey, while losing a friend to suicide in 2019 inspired his book "Executive Loneliness." Today, seven years sober, Nick leads support groups for men and senior executives, creating safe spaces where vulnerability becomes strength rather than weakness.
Most compelling is Nick's transformation from success-driven executive to authentic human being. Now pursuing therapy credentials to specialize in addiction recovery, he shares how sports replaced alcohol as his connection medium—allowing this self-described introvert to build genuine relationships through side-by-side activities rather than face-to-face confrontation.
Whether you're navigating leadership challenges, questioning conventional success metrics, or supporting someone through addiction, this episode offers profound insights into the power of authentic connection and the courage to show up as your true self.
To reach Nick, go to his website: http://www.nickjonsson.com
You can also find all his links at http://podfol.io/profile/nick-jonsson
His book "Executive Loneliness" can be purchased at http://www.nickjonsson.com/executive-loneliness-book
Freed AI converts conversations into SOAP note.Use code Steve50 for $50 off the 1st month!
Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action, where
strength meets strategy andcourage to help you move forward
.
Each week, your host, steveBisson, a therapist with over
two decades of experience in thefirst responder community,
brings you powerfulconversations about resilience,
growth and healing throughtrauma and grief.
Through authentic interviews,expert discussions and
(00:21):
real-world experiences, we divedeep into the heart of human
resilience.
We explore crucial topics liketrauma recovery, grief
processing, stress managementand emotional well-being.
This is Resilience Developmentin Action with Steve Bisson.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Good day everyone.
Welcome again.
This is episode 203 ofResilience, development and
Action.
My name is Steve Biesel.
If you haven't listened toepisode 202 yet, it was with
Kevin Cormien.
It was a great interview.
This is just great to havepeople who go from the first
responder world to the mentalhealth world.
So please go back and listen tothat interview.
But episode 203 is with NickJohnson.
Nick Johnson is an internationalbestselling author, co-founder
(01:04):
of EGN Singapore, he's been aTEDx speaker and he's competed
in Ironmans.
He went from a businessbackground, high executive roles
to now spending years aftergetting to a point where he
faced burnout, suicide and theloss of a friend to suicide.
He became someone who issharing his insights into mental
health, leadership and personalgrowth.
(01:25):
While I love grief, trauma andfirst responder coaching and the
high C-suite people, theydefinitely need the same support
.
So this is why Nick is on.
I'm looking forward to hearinghis insight.
He does deep dives, he shares astory, he'll talk about the
suicide of his friend.
And here's the interview.
(01:50):
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Well, welcome to ResilienceDevelopment in Action, episode
203.
I'm excited.
For those of you who know meand have been listening to the
podcast, I am not a morningperson.
I've got my coffee here, got mywater, but I had to get up
(04:03):
early because I wanted to meetthis man.
Nick Johnson is all the way in,right now, thailand, I think he
said at pre-interview usuallyfrom Singapore, but right now
he's in Thailand and I wasreading his story.
I thought it was a fantasticstory.
I wanted to share it with youguys because we're going to talk
about people in the corporateworld, the coaching that goes
with that, we're going to talkabout psychotherapy and we're
(04:25):
going to talk about addiction.
I'm just so excited, nick.
Welcome to ResilienceDevelopment in Action.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
It's great to be on the show, steve.
Thank you so much, and goodevening indeed from Southeast
Asia.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
I can't imagine.
It's such a weird conceptsometimes that we're talking at
the same time halfway across theworld, and I'm from the 1970s.
That was like a dream in the1970s.
Now it's a reality and we do itregularly, so it's just
fascinating absolutely steven.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
I'm in from the 70s and as well, right in the middle
of it oh, you're 75 there we gome too.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
There we go me too see 1975, so you know 50 this
year, so there we go I read yourstuff, um, and I was very
excited to have you on, but myaudience didn't read your stuff
just yet, so they want to hear alittle more about you.
So you can you tell me a littlemore about yourself?
Speaker 3 (05:18):
yeah, sure.
So I was born in sweden,educated in australia, and then
I lived and worked the last 21years in Southeast Asia and in
very short I started basicallyin a blue collar worker family,
my father in construction.
That's where I also started.
I worked as a constructionpainter until I had a motorcycle
(05:39):
accident aged about 20.
And after that the doctors toldme that I couldn't continue to
work with my body.
I got a neck injury and a backinjury and so 20.
And after that the doctors toldme that I couldn't continue to
work with my body.
I got a neck injury and a backinjury and so on, and I had to
go back to school.
So with that I transformed mylife and became a student again,
and that sent me off toAustralia to learn English.
And that's at least thebeginning of my journey.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Well, there's so much just in that too.
You know hearing aboutconstruction being blue collar
and now seeing where you're attoday.
You know I I I've joked aroundwhen my client said I'm a blue
collar and blue collar guy in awhite collar job.
So I respect that a lot morethan you know.
Um, can you tell me more about,like you know, the motorcycle
accident?
I read about it but I'd like tohear more because that's kind
(06:22):
of like the tipping point foryou, a change in your life, yes,
and at the time I thought mylife was over and that was all I
knew.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
I worked with my body .
The way I knew to earn extramoney was raising my hand and
take extra work on the weekendsor work evenings, and taking
more dangerous jobs, and so on.
So when I got injured then Ijust thought, well, this, this
is not good, I will just be onsick pay and that's gonna not be
good money.
And then, because I didn't havean education stand on, that was
(06:52):
really challenging for me, butout of that came the
opportunities.
Then, you know, forcing myselfthen to go back to school, and I
didn't even have good enoughgrades from high school to go to
university, so I had to go backto what we call in Sweden
almost like an adult high school, where I had to retake the
subjects from high school to getdecent grades to be able to
(07:14):
enter the university.
So that was my journey, andthrough that, though, I sort of
got a second chance in life anda taste for life and a taste for
winning, a taste for successthat perhaps would never have
been given to me otherwise.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
So taste of success.
I'm always fascinated by whatpeople describe as success,
because your definition ofsuccess might be different than
mine, might be different thanother people.
I don't like the description ofpeople telling me success is
having $5 million or having 14cars, or having three houses.
I'm making it up here.
(07:49):
To me that's not success.
But success is a littledifferent for me.
What is your definition ofsuccess?
Speaker 3 (07:56):
Yeah, unfortunately, the definition of success for me
meant what you mentioned there.
That was what I started to seeand that was the picture that
was painted to me at theuniversity.
The teachers was talking about,you know, topping classes,
getting scholarships, workinghard, getting the awards and
having that attitude of winning.
That was success at university.
(08:17):
And then that's what I pickedup on and I brought that
mentality with me into thecorporate world later on, where
I started then as an accountexecutive in an advertising
American advertising company inThailand and I would say that I
elbowed my way up the corporateladder until I reached the
managing director position andthen I had what the world
(08:40):
defined as success.
I did, I defined it as success.
That was what everyone saw.
But that's when, also, Istarted to crash.
That was the beginning of myfall.
Once I had reached that top, itwas like an illusion to climb
that corporate ladder, becauseonce I had that house with five
floors, driver, maids and thefull squad of people serving me,
(09:04):
that was when I was the mostungrateful and sort of unhappy
ever in my life.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Well, that's fascinating because we talked a
little bit about coachingearlier and it's one of those
challenges.
Right, my experience withpeople who, in the corporate
world, they claw up, they workhard, they do this and that.
Then they get to a pointregularly of going.
There's two things that usuallyhappens.
I feel like an imposter how thehell did I get here?
And B, is this worth it?
(09:31):
Is this 80, 90 hour a weekclawing, doing what I need to do
, really worth it?
So I'm sure that you've seenleaders have some of these
challenges.
I'd like to hear more, a littlebit about that and even talk
about your challenges, if youwant to.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
Yeah, absolutely so.
In 2015 is the year that I'mreferring to.
That's when I basically startedgoing down.
I resigned from my job.
Then I was, you know,dilutional.
I was unhappy and with thatalso I lost myself and I filed
for a divorce because I wasn'tready to have any conversations
(10:07):
around it.
So with that I became veryisolated, very lonely.
I then traded my healthy dietfor fast food and pizza.
I traded my gym membership fora bar stool and basically gained
about 50 60 pounds.
And the issue is that is that onthe outside, people thought
that it's good to see thatyou're not always just working,
(10:29):
it's good that you have some funas well.
And I sort of picked up on thatand I just made excuses and
said I'm in transition, I haveanother new project coming, but
that was all lies.
I was jumping from project toproject, burning through my
savings and before I knew it Iwas broke and I would become an
alcoholic.
So that was my fault and ittook me two or three years to
(10:49):
slide down to my rock bottom andto answer your question about
others yes, I've seen it in somany and if I'm looking at the
numbers here in Southeast Asiaaround 10% to 20% of all the
senior executives here findthemselves in that kind of
addiction space.
Perhaps many call themselvesfunctional addicts, and it could
(11:10):
be drugs, alcohol, gambling,sex or anything else that they
seek to be able to cope with allthe pressures, but eventually
it only takes something for thewheels to fall off there as well
.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Well, you know also, the definition of success
sometimes is like hey, you know,when you go out corporately and
have a bunch of drinks, that'sthe success, that's a mark of
success.
And I don't know if that's yourexperience, that you've seen
with some of the executives, butI've certainly seen that as oh
yeah, we got to go mingle andhave a couple of drinks and then
suddenly it becomes you justdrink and you're no longer
(11:43):
mingling and you're just lookingforward to your next drink.
Speaker 3 (11:46):
I don't know if that's your experience, but
certainly my experience withsome corporate level jobs.
Yeah, that was the experience Ihad and that was how I delivered
in Southeast Asia.
I worked mainly in Thailand,vietnam and Indonesia and I
worked in everything fromadvertising agency to medical
services companies to fashioncompany and in business
(12:07):
development.
It was about taking out clientsto entertain them, and it would
be clients coming from US orEurope stopping over in Asia,
and you were expected to takethem out for dinner and drinks
and it seemed like the moredrinks you had, the more
assignments you managed to getthem to sign up and they would
come back for more.
So it was going hand in handand I remember my boss cheering
(12:29):
on me, encouraging me to go outand network and entertain as
much as possible, and with thatI brought back more contracts.
So that part of my career, itseems like the more I was
consuming alcohol and going out,the better I performed.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
And the better you perform, but the less you
perform really in your personallife, because it's just, you
don't have a personal lifeanymore, right?
Speaker 3 (12:51):
Yeah, and it was destroying my health, and the
issue is that I was also indenial about it.
While I mentioned it was 2015,.
When it started to become anissue for me.
It was early signs alreadyaround 2004,.
2005, when I actually ended upin hospital on a Monday with
hypertension and the doctorsgiving me medication and so on.
(13:11):
I didn't realize that at thetime, and neither did the
doctors, that it was alcoholrelated, but it was obviously
after a big weekend outconsuming way too much alcohol.
No wonder that I was strugglingmaking it into the office on a
Monday morning.
Those were the early signs, butI didn't see it as that,
because alcohol is so sociallyacceptable, especially when it
(13:31):
comes to business andentertainment and on the
weekends also going out playinggolf in 40 degree Celsius that's
, 100 Fahrenheit plus right andconsuming alcohol, no wonder
you're going to get sick.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Well, what's funny is that I go play golf now and
this has been a few years nowwith a few people who are in
full sobriety, and I don't drinkwhen I play golf.
I had pre-interview and youguys heard me on the podcast
talk about some of the stuff Iwent through.
Not only is it hypertension, Ithink that how does it affect
(14:05):
even your mentality and how youthink about things?
I think you become so consumedwith either the job or alcohol,
but you're never like dealingwith other stuff that's
happening in your life?
Speaker 3 (14:16):
Yeah, absolutely, and it becomes a full circle.
The issue is that one bad habitor one addiction easily leads
to another.
And the most people that I workwith and coach, especially
senior executives if you askthem about the big issues that
happen in their life, if it isthat they end up with drugs or
prostitution or gambling orlosing a lot, and you ask them
(14:38):
what and how did this all start,how did it come about?
It always starts with alcohol.
They wouldn't say that they'vegone out buying drugs or going
to see prostitutes andeverything that comes with that
Sober.
It normally starts over dinnerand then drinks and then on it
goes.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Yeah, and I think that that's the other part too
is that we start doing thingsthat we're not proud of and now
we start wanting to drownwhatever we're not proud of with
more alcohol.
So that way, you don't need tothink about it.
I think it's a vicious cycle,and I see that in corporate
America as much as I see it inthe first responder world that I
work with regularly, because wedo stuff we're not proud of or
(15:21):
we have a trauma that comes fromit, and it's very difficult,
and I think you talked a littlebit about your own traumas in
regards to, you know, getting ina motorcycle accident, having
to redo your life and nowsuddenly realizing alcohol is
taking over your life.
Now you got to redo your lifeagain, and that's all traumatic
for people, if you ask me.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
Yeah, absolutely, and it's almost seven years ago now
since I quit drinking alcohol,but it was only after again was
the motorcycle accident was thefirst sort of big change in my
life.
Stopping alcohol was the secondone, and it was not easy to
give it up.
It was something that I knew Ihad to, but it I actually had to
(16:00):
be quite sick, I had to be sosick and tired that I was sick
and tired of being sick andtired.
In the end to be able to giveup there and uh, and you know, I
remember at that time life wasso miserable.
I've written my will, I'vewritten my testament and I
really was preparing to leavethis place.
I wasn't suicidal, but I wascertainly accepting that my body
(16:20):
was giving up on me, I wasaccepting that I was going to
die and therefore I better cleanup my act.
So that was the stage I was in,and it was only when I started
to send out those signals,sending these documentations to
my loved ones and people aroundme.
And this time I met a new girlwho today is my second wife, and
when they started to questionit and I decided to open up to
(16:42):
her and I explained how I feltinternally.
That was my turning point thistime, because then I was exposed
and with that recovery waspossible.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Recovery is always possible by talking about it,
and that vulnerability, I think,is the hardest part.
You talked a little bit aboutwhat happens when you go into
corporate America and all that.
The other part that we talkedabout pre-interview is isolation
, and I think that sometimesalcohol know, sometimes alcohol
isolates us and sometimes weisolate ourselves because of the
alcohol.
(17:11):
But what's your experience inregards to your own high level
executive jobs and the isolationthat goes with that?
Speaker 3 (17:20):
Yeah, isolation is a big part of the pressure jobs
because many times perhaps andif you think about them in asia,
where many are expats perhapsyou're out here representing an
american company you know andyou're sitting in singapore and
hong kong or something like thatyou might be the only
english-speaking person in thatoffice.
You might not have even thoughthere's a few colleagues who can
(17:42):
speak some english.
You might not have enough incommon to even have a
conversation.
That's the kind of environmentthat I found myself in.
Many times I could be in anoffice with 300 people and no
one necessarily spoke English orwas a westerner.
So it was very difficult tohave any kind of conversation
that was not about work.
And if you sit there and youknow people speak another
(18:04):
language the whole time, thenthat can be very lonely, but it
doesn't have to be in adifferent language, it can just
be if you feel as an externalright and if you also don't have
a good connection with yourself.
If you're not well by yourself,then you can feel excluded
among your best friends.
So it starts with us, after all.
It starts with us, and if wedon't feel connected in the
(18:26):
workplace, then we better makesure that we have good
connection externally, that wego perhaps and see some people
for a sports academy or someactivity before and after work
and perhaps go out for a lunchbreak with someone who you can
speak to but and I think thatthe other part that I heard you
talk about is, you know wetalked being Swedish and you
(18:48):
know I experienced myself, likeyou know as much as I spoke
English I was.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
I'm from Quebec, born and raised, and my first few
years here there was thiscultural I don't even know what
to call it, but I just missed myculture.
It's not that the Americanculture and Canadian culture
isn't that different, but thereis differences, and I j joked
around, I think, with youearlier, like you don't call
someone from sweden a finnishand you don't call a finnish
person swedish.
(19:15):
Uh, because there is adifference, even though there's
similarities, and we both knowthat, but there's a lot of
differences too.
How did you deal with even thatcultural isolation, which does
happen, not only because ofcorporate America, but, like you
didn't move from Sweden toFinland, like I did from the US,
you moved the other side of theworld Australia, singapore,
(19:36):
southeast Asia.
I mean, that's a huge change.
Did the cultural shock reallyaffect you?
Speaker 3 (19:42):
Yeah, it's huge indeed and, as it happens many
times, we live perhaps in anexpat area where at least it's
some Westerners, people who havesimilar kind of religion,
similar kind of hobbies andactivities and so on.
Then at least you can speakEnglish language.
So it seems like that's wherewe start, at least these days.
I'm more integrated.
(20:03):
I'm now remarried for six years.
Also.
My wife now is Indonesian.
I don't speak the language, butshe's very international.
But at least that had broughtme a little bit closer to the
Asian culture, which made it alittle bit easier also for me to
feel at home here.
But it's not easy in thebeginning and one way I managed
(20:24):
to get around that in thebeginning was going out and
drinking alcohol, but I don't dothat anymore.
So I need to find somethingmore authentically to do these
days, and it's for sport.
I do a lot of sport these days.
I swim, I cycle, I run, Ibelong to swim academies and so
on where I meet other people andhang out, and it can be both
locals and Westerners andforeigners as well.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
I was going to joke around.
I mean, mean, what's sport?
Curling or hockey but I wasjust a joke, obviously.
But yeah, um, there's alwaysthese stereotypes and I
understand that.
But getting into swimming andrunning and everything else, did
that also bring you closer tonot only work being close to
other people because you're anexpat, but you're also working
with being authenticallyyourself, because it's not an
(21:07):
executive situation, it's allthat.
You're just doing sports,you're doing stuff with people.
Did that help you become moreof who you truly are?
Speaker 3 (21:16):
Yes, it did.
And actually I really enjoysports and I love socializing
through sport because I'm anintrovert, socializing through
sport because I'm an introvert.
So I tend to like any activitywhere you are, you know, side by
side running, walking, hiking,cycling, you know that's.
That's a fantastic place for meto have a conversation, because
(21:38):
you don't have to look at eachother straight in the eyes and
you would know this as atherapist how you set up the
chairs and all these kind ofthings.
If you want people to talk,maybe not not face them straight
in the eyes, which is perhapsnot the easiest for an introvert
, but I found that really easyfor me to chat away.
And also, when you're runningand your heart rate is high and
you can breathe and so on, thenthe conversations tend to be
(22:01):
quite positive and deep and soon.
So I do most of my socializingthese days actually through
exercise.
So the bar stool again wastraded back to exercise.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
I think that that's a great exchange.
If you ask me, changing fromthe bar stool to sports, that's
just me, but I also think thatthat brings you more to your
authentic self.
Do you feel like not only didsobriety bring you there, but
also does that help in otherparts of your life?
Because you were talking alittle earlier about the
executive, I find that intherapy you talked about therapy
(22:33):
earlier and even the podcast.
If you saw me in my privatelife versus my therapy versus a
podcast, you kind of see thesame guy.
I'm not much different from onesituation to another, but
sometimes when you go fromexecutive to family to
everything else, you change yourpersona.
So did you find that executivesalso struggled with being
(22:53):
themselves in particularsituations?
Speaker 3 (22:56):
Yeah, absolutely, I struggle and I see others
struggle.
It's about putting on that maskand making sure that you are
that person and I remember,especially in the jobs where you
had to wear a formal suit, itwas not really where I felt
comfortable in and wearing a tie, my ties- and I was hoping
(23:21):
never again.
And then last year I was invitedto a dinner when I had to get a
tie, so I bought one for justthat occasion, but I prefer to
be a bit more relaxed and so on.
So, yes, I'm much more myauthentic self these days, being
more of an entrepreneur, doingspeaking, coaching, training,
workshops and all these kinds ofthings.
Even though I speak also at alot of conferences and a lot of
them would wear suits, Iactually come in in a t shirt
(23:42):
and a suit jacket and I'm finewith that.
There was only one time theyhad a requirement to wearing a
tie and, yeah, I will play alongfor one time then, but it's not
really me.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
I respect that and I certainly am the same way.
This is okay, Like it, but I'mnot someone who likes to wear
the same things.
I think that showing up withwho you are and how you dress is
so important.
Did you feel that by being alittle more yourself, dressing
the way you wanted also createda better relationship with
people?
You're coaching people in yourspeaking engagements, and so on
(24:11):
and so forth.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Yes, absolutely, and I think one of the reasons
behind my success in thecoaching space is my
authenticity, and my success inthe coaching space is my
authenticity, the fact that I'msharing my story today with you
here, steve and the listeners,about hitting rock bottom,
having fallen into alcoholismand climbing out of that.
Those are things that I alsoshare in my book, the Executive
(24:34):
Loneliness book.
So my story is out there, whichcreates a lot of trust.
People feel quite safe to comeand see me and in fact if
someone applying for a job in mycompany I send them a PDF copy
of my book and I refer them topage 30 in the book, which is
when I'm explaining abouthitting a rock bottom so that's
the toughest day in my lifeexplained very much in detail
(24:55):
there.
So I figure if someone readthat then they know the most
difficult day in my life.
Then they can come to a jobinterview and they feel pretty
safe.
And I've had candidates cominginto my job interviews with me
who already within five minutessay that they actually couldn't
stop reading my book.
They read all my book off thepages they've been referred to
(25:15):
and they would share that theyperhaps had to have a suicide
attempt themselves, in theirlife, behind them and stuff like
that.
People have shown me scars andall these kind of things and
those are the kind ofconversations we've had as a
result of me being vulnerable,me being open, me being
transparent and playing thefirst card, first card, making
them feel safe, and that's agood start for any conversation,
(25:39):
rather than trying to show off.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Yeah well, showing off never works out in all
reality, if you ask me.
It may help you in the shortterm, but the long term it just
screws you over, and the suicidestuff happens regularly.
When people hit the rock bottomand them opening up about them
must have felt good for you.
Have you had those thoughtsyourself?
Have you tempted yourself oranything like that?
Speaker 3 (26:02):
No, I haven't.
No, but alcohol was sort of,you know, putting me in a state
where I was slowly killingmyself.
I call perhaps alcoholism aslow, gradual suicide.
So in one sense yes, but Ithink it doesn't put you in that
state, At least it didn't dothat with me.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
No, I'm happy that you did not, and I think that
there's I call alcohol slowsuicide, because you can't live
with yourself, and I think thatyou've talked about it and it's
one of the things that I do withmy coaching staff people that I
talk to is that we get to apoint where we use substances,
(26:44):
alcohol or drugs in order to notdeal with our mental health.
And I know you went back toschool going for your mental
health stuff, but I I to meagain.
Yes, you're going to say I'm atherapist and of course, I'll
have to say that, but I think itall comes back to mental health
and I don't know what yourexperience is with that.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
Yeah, I would fully agree with you, stephen.
That's why, in my coaching inthe last few years now, I felt
many times that I fell short,and that's why I'm now studying
to become a therapist and acounselor as well, so that I can
help my clients better.
I now work in tandem with someother therapists so I refer them
(27:21):
to them and I will keep doingthat for specialists and cases
and so on.
But my space is addiction.
That's where I fell and that'swhere I raised and that's where
I believe I can make an impact,and quite a few people have said
that they appreciate to talk tosomeone who's been there, who
knows what it is to hit rockbottom, and that's where I
(27:42):
believe I can add a lot of valuemoving forward as well and I
think you can, because of yourexperience and what you've been
through with everything that youjust shared.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
Has there been a story or a couple of people or
things that stick out, that itwere a breakthrough story?
That you're going oh my god,this was like amazing because of
the coaching, because ofeverything else well I can say.
Speaker 3 (28:02):
Firstly, a sad story was in 2019, one year into my
own recovery.
I lost a friend to suicide insingapore.
This was a successful seniorexecutive who I was doing some
work together with, who I sadlylost, and, and that, though,
gave me the courage to speak up,because until then, I was one
(28:23):
year into my recovery, but itwas a closed circle.
It was my recovery group and myfamily and a few close friends
who knew what had happened, butwhen he sadly died, so suddenly,
I asked his brother for thepermission to share my story and
to write a book about this, andI actually wrote my executive
loneliness book in the memory ofSimon, my friend I lost then.
(28:47):
So, because I wanted to get themessage out there, because I
said, basically, we need tobecome comfortable discussing
the uncomfortable was my message, and so that was my.
That was a sad case.
With that book coming out andwith me starting to talk about
this, I have met several people,including people I interviewed
(29:08):
for the book, who, actually, atthe point of interviewing them
one woman I can remember vividly, who I interviewed about it she
said to me that she hadrehearsed her own suicide twice.
When we sat down and this wasactually at the case where she
was pretty close to triggeringit and executing the suicide.
(29:30):
So the fact that I had reachedout to her to interview her for
my book, it gave her a chance tospeak up about her own thoughts
on suicide and with that herpattern was broken Because
obviously, talking on theseconversations, I already also
had counselors andpsychotherapists and
professionals on standby shouldhelp be needed, and I was quite
(29:52):
quick to ask for permission tocall for professional help and
we got professional help andwith that she also shared with
this therapist her plans and heasked for the permission to also
inform the husband on this.
With this the husband also gotinvolved and we all had some
good conversation about it.
And I remember what she saidwhen this came to shore.
(30:14):
She said I can't believe that Ijust shared this and I can't
believe that I was actuallyplanning my own suicide.
She couldn't believe how stupidit sounded to herself, the fact
when she just spoke it out.
She's sort of a similarexperience like me.
She was on her way back alreadyand these days she's changed
(30:35):
her career and she has her lifeback and living her best days
now.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
That's an amazing story and I'm happy that she was
able to share that with you.
Suicide is such a controversialthing for so many people and I
always describe it from myperspective and it's the most
courageous, cowardly act youcould ever do, because it's both
courageous and cowardly and Idon't put it as I don't say that
to my clients when obviouslythey're having those thoughts
(31:01):
but it's also the way out, right, because then when you don't
see the way out, that's the onlychoice you feel you have.
Speaker 3 (31:07):
Yeah, unfortunately that's what I'm hearing also,
and I also run a men's supportgroup where we are about 21, 22
men now.
We meet once a week to discusswhat's going on in our minds and
within that group every sort ofweek there will be two or three
(31:27):
who are in that space when it'sgetting pretty dark and they
cannot really see a way out.
But just the fact to log on andtalk about it is sometimes all
that we need, just to be able toshare that.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
It's tough right now rather than keeping it
internally.
The biggest protective factorof suicide to me is having
connections with other people.
Whether you're introvert orextrovert, it doesn't matter.
If I know that I can turnaround and say look, nick, I
need your support and I knowI'll get it from you.
That'll save me from a lot ofsuicidal thoughts and or
(32:00):
attempts.
So I think social support isgreat.
When you talk about the men'sgroup that you're running, do
you talk about anything specificor is it just like you let
people talk and they talk aboutwhat's going on in their lives?
Speaker 3 (32:13):
We have a theme every week and I will propose the
theme in advance, unless we haverequests.
We always have a request.
One time One week it can besleep, one time it can be
learning mindset, growth mindset, another time it can be
addiction, next time it can bechildren or relationships.
(32:34):
So we basically, and then wedon't have to share on that
theme, but we are welcome andencouraged to do that and
typically we have some readingswe share with everyone before.
So it's almost like a recoverygroup, but you don't have to be
in recovery or be an addict tojoin it, and that's why I
(32:55):
started.
I thought it was so good and Iwas fortunate that I had a
drinking problem, so I ended upin one of those recovery groups.
But I thought then well, it'sunfortunate that you have to
become an addict to get into oneof those rooms.
So that's why I sort of createdthis space for anyone and it's
for men.
We all go through differentchallenges.
(33:15):
We don't have to fall intoaddiction to have challenges in
our life.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
I mean, I'll challenge that a little bit with
you, and what I mean by that isI agree with you, but I'll add
to it.
I think that everyone isaddicted to something.
I think we all have addictionissues.
Some people are addicted totheir jobs, some people are
addicted to working out, somepeople are addicted to the money
, but there's always anaddiction.
So that's why, when I hearabout the exclusionary well,
(33:44):
you're not drinking alcohol,that's the only addiction we
address I always find that likekind of cop out, because I think
we all struggle with some sortof addiction.
Speaker 3 (33:49):
Yeah, absolutely, and I like that and maybe you know
we could have a recovery.
It should be one of thoseofficial 12-step recovery
programs and perhaps for justgeneral addiction, I don't know.
Now they all filtered, you know, depending on what addiction,
but at the end actually it's thesame program.
It's 12 steps, right, and it'sonly one of those 12 steps that
is about drugs, alcohol, sex orwhatever it is.
(34:12):
The rest is the same.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
I mean, you talk about sex addiction.
You talk about other types ofaddictions.
To me, they're all the same inthe sense that they have a
common theme.
You're trying to solve some ofyour mental health issues by
going into addiction.
You feel lonely.
Sometimes people will throwthemselves into work or workouts
so that they don't need to dealwith their loneliness.
My experience is that youshould have a.
(34:34):
You're right.
Maybe me and you can come upwith a nice general statement
and we can have men's group andwomen's group who talk about
their supports that they need.
In regards to working out onsleep, you know, talk about
sleep, talk about eating healthyand I always talk about
nutrition versus diet, becausethat's the most important part
and really paying attention toyour body.
(34:55):
You know, like if your bodyaches somewhere, pay attention
to it.
What are you going to do aboutit?
But I think that that's whatsometimes addiction gets you.
Oh, I feel a little pain here.
Let me put a little alcohol onit or put a little pill on it.
It'll go away.
It ain't going to go away, it'sjust going to be covered.
Speaker 3 (35:11):
Yeah, yeah, exactly, I agree with you there.
And also I should say that youknow, know, it's not only men's
group I I run.
I also run confidential peergroups for senior executives.
We have also groups forentrepreneurs where they discuss
with like-minded mixed groupsand at their seniority level,
and there they mainly discusswork-related matters.
(35:31):
So the pressures at work andthe biggest challenges they
discuss in the group is how tomanage upwards, how to manage
the boss, the board, thepartners, the owners, followed
by recruitment of staff,retention and all these things
that people would have in common.
So they have a place where theycan discuss these challenges
and support each other, and alsofor entrepreneurs, because
(35:52):
entrepreneurs can be very lonelyas well, so that you have other
entrepreneurs to have a groupwhere you can discuss your
challenges and help each other.
We also have women groups forthe women, and my wife is
actually leading that initiative.
So I believe we need these safeplaces and sometimes we need
perhaps just between us men havesome conversations and I think
(36:12):
that's fine.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
Yeah, and I think that we got to celebrate these
differences without saying thatit's special, and I think that
that's how I perceive it.
Is that, yeah, I perceive it isthat, yeah, I have a group for
first responders, for example,and I think that that's
important, but if they need amen's group, they need a support
group for their substances.
Those are also very valid andthey need to go to that.
(36:34):
But we need to have I'm happyto hear about these groups for
peers who are talking aboutcorporate stuff, because I think
it's good to know that you'renot alone, and I think they see
that way too many times when Italk about coaching with my
corporate people.
Speaker 3 (36:48):
Yeah, certainly the corporate world can be lonely
and isolated, as we discussedbefore, and it's also a fine
line how vulnerable you can bein the workplace.
Yes, you should be vulnerableabout the challenges you are
facing at work, if you are.
For example, in my case, I wasnot very good at Excel, but I
was too scared to go to admitthis to my boss.
I wanted to become a processperfect, so I didn't share with
(37:10):
her that I needed support withExcel and then I made mistakes
and I covered up for that.
I should have been vulnerable.
I should have said I'm not sogood at this, can I get some
help or can I get some support?
But I wasn't.
I was scared to be judged andso on.
That's the vulnerability weshould have, but I don't
encourage people to come in andshare everything that's going on
in their personal life in theoffice because that could start
(37:32):
to be used against them andgossiping and so on.
That we need are safe places.
Perhaps one or two colleagueswe can share things that we're
going through personally in theoffice, but not overshare with
everyone.
That's not my point invulnerability here.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
Yeah, and I think that that's where people have to
understand about oversharingversus vulnerability.
There's a very thin linebetween the two and finding that
actual line is always veryimportant, very difficult.
So I agree with you.
Well, you know, I would like toget your word out, get
everything that.
Where can people reach you?
Where can people go find you?
Speaker 3 (38:06):
I'm quite active on LinkedIn so if anyone is on
LinkedIn they can look up NickJohnson and it's
N-I-C-K-J-O-N-S-S-O-N.
Otherwise, my book ExecutiveLoneliness is on Amazon and it's
also on audible, if someoneprefer the audio book okay, and
then we can.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
What I'll do is I'll I'll link to the show notes your
book on amazon.
I will also link your linkedinprofile and then I'll put in
your website so people can goand get it.
So that way they'll know how toprint and how to like spell
nick johnson, because I had Iwhen I wrote it down the first
time I screwed up.
So that's, that's on me.
It is the Swedish definite, thespelling of the word.
(38:45):
So for all my American andCanadian friends listening, yes,
it's the Swedish writing ofJohnson fantastic.
Speaker 3 (38:53):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
Nick, I really appreciate you truly.
Your vulnerability and yourability to go from subject to
subject was really appreciatedand I thank you for your time.
Speaker 3 (39:01):
Thank you so much, Steve.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
Thank you for episode 203, nick Johnson, really
appreciate you having there.
Hope you join us for episode204 with Bet Saldo.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
Please like, subscribe and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful and, as a reminder, this
podcast is for informational,educational and entertainment
purposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(39:38):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action, where
strength meets strategy andcourage to help you move forward
.
Each week, your host, steveBisson, a therapist with over
two decades of experience in thefirst responder community,
brings you powerfulconversations about resilience,
growth and healing throughtrauma and grief.
Through authentic interviews,expert discussions and
(00:21):
real-world experiences, we divedeep into the heart of human
resilience.
We explore crucial topics liketrauma recovery, grief
processing, stress managementand emotional well-being.
This is Resilience Developmentin Action with Steve Bisson.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Good day everyone.
Welcome again.
This is episode 203 ofResilience, development and
Action.
My name is Steve Biesel.
If you haven't listened toepisode 202 yet, it was with
Kevin Cormien.
It was a great interview.
This is just great to havepeople who go from the first
responder world to the mentalhealth world.
So please go back and listen tothat interview.
But episode 203 is with NickJohnson.
Nick Johnson is an internationalbestselling author, co-founder
(01:04):
of EGN Singapore, he's been aTEDx speaker and he's competed
in Ironmans.
He went from a businessbackground, high executive roles
to now spending years aftergetting to a point where he
faced burnout, suicide and theloss of a friend to suicide.
He became someone who issharing his insights into mental
health, leadership and personalgrowth.
(01:25):
While I love grief, trauma andfirst responder coaching and the
high C-suite people, theydefinitely need the same support
.
So this is why Nick is on.
I'm looking forward to hearinghis insight.
He does deep dives, he shares astory, he'll talk about the
suicide of his friend.
And here's the interview.
(01:50):
Getfreeai yes, you've heard metalk about it previously in
other episodes, but I'm going totalk about it again because
Getfreeai is just a greatservice.
Imagine being able to payattention to your clients all
the time instead of writingnotes and making sure that the
note's going to sound good andhow you're going to write that
note and things like that.
(02:10):
Getfreeai liberates you frommaking sure that you're writing
what the client is saying,because it is keeping track of
what you're saying and willcreate, after the end of every
session, a progress note.
But it goes above and beyondthat.
Not only does it create aprogress note, it also gives you
suggestions for goals, givesyou even a mental status if
(02:32):
you've asked questions aroundthat, as well as being able to
write a letter for your clientto know what you talked about.
So that's the great, greatthing.
It saves me time, it saves me alot of aggravation and it just
speeds up the progress noteprocess so well, and for $99 a
month.
I know that that's nothing.
(02:53):
That's worth my time, that'sworth my money, you know.
The best part of it too is thatif you want to go and put in
the code Steve50, when you getthe service at the checkout code
is Steve50, you get $50 offyour first month and if you get
a whole year, you save a whole10% for the whole year.
So again, steve50 at checkoutfor getfreeai will get you $50
(03:19):
off for the first month and,like I said, get a full year,
get 10% off, get free fromwriting notes, get free from
always scribbling while you'retalking to a client and just
paying attention to your client.
So they went out, you went out,everybody wins and I think that
this is the greatest thing.
And if you're up to a pointwhere you got to change a
treatment plan, well, the goalsare generated for you.
(03:40):
So get freeai code Steve 50, tosave $50 on your first month.
Well, welcome to ResilienceDevelopment in Action, episode
203.
I'm excited.
For those of you who know meand have been listening to the
podcast, I am not a morningperson.
I've got my coffee here, got mywater, but I had to get up
(04:03):
early because I wanted to meetthis man.
Nick Johnson is all the way in,right now, thailand, I think he
said at pre-interview usuallyfrom Singapore, but right now
he's in Thailand and I wasreading his story.
I thought it was a fantasticstory.
I wanted to share it with youguys because we're going to talk
about people in the corporateworld, the coaching that goes
with that, we're going to talkabout psychotherapy and we're
(04:25):
going to talk about addiction.
I'm just so excited, nick.
Welcome to ResilienceDevelopment in Action.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
It's great to be on the show, steve.
Thank you so much, and goodevening indeed from Southeast
Asia.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
I can't imagine.
It's such a weird conceptsometimes that we're talking at
the same time halfway across theworld, and I'm from the 1970s.
That was like a dream in the1970s.
Now it's a reality and we do itregularly, so it's just
fascinating absolutely steven.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
I'm in from the 70s and as well, right in the middle
of it oh, you're 75 there we gome too.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
There we go me too see 1975, so you know 50 this
year, so there we go I read yourstuff, um, and I was very
excited to have you on, but myaudience didn't read your stuff
just yet, so they want to hear alittle more about you.
So you can you tell me a littlemore about yourself?
Speaker 3 (05:18):
yeah, sure.
So I was born in sweden,educated in australia, and then
I lived and worked the last 21years in Southeast Asia and in
very short I started basicallyin a blue collar worker family,
my father in construction.
That's where I also started.
I worked as a constructionpainter until I had a motorcycle
(05:39):
accident aged about 20.
And after that the doctors toldme that I couldn't continue to
work with my body.
I got a neck injury and a backinjury and so 20.
And after that the doctors toldme that I couldn't continue to
work with my body.
I got a neck injury and a backinjury and so on, and I had to
go back to school.
So with that I transformed mylife and became a student again,
and that sent me off toAustralia to learn English.
And that's at least thebeginning of my journey.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Well, there's so much just in that too.
You know hearing aboutconstruction being blue collar
and now seeing where you're attoday.
You know I I I've joked aroundwhen my client said I'm a blue
collar and blue collar guy in awhite collar job.
So I respect that a lot morethan you know.
Um, can you tell me more about,like you know, the motorcycle
accident?
I read about it but I'd like tohear more because that's kind
(06:22):
of like the tipping point foryou, a change in your life, yes,
and at the time I thought mylife was over and that was all I
knew.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
I worked with my body .
The way I knew to earn extramoney was raising my hand and
take extra work on the weekendsor work evenings, and taking
more dangerous jobs, and so on.
So when I got injured then Ijust thought, well, this, this
is not good, I will just be onsick pay and that's gonna not be
good money.
And then, because I didn't havean education stand on, that was
(06:52):
really challenging for me, butout of that came the
opportunities.
Then, you know, forcing myselfthen to go back to school, and I
didn't even have good enoughgrades from high school to go to
university, so I had to go backto what we call in Sweden
almost like an adult high school, where I had to retake the
subjects from high school to getdecent grades to be able to
(07:14):
enter the university.
So that was my journey, andthrough that, though, I sort of
got a second chance in life anda taste for life and a taste for
winning, a taste for successthat perhaps would never have
been given to me otherwise.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
So taste of success.
I'm always fascinated by whatpeople describe as success,
because your definition ofsuccess might be different than
mine, might be different thanother people.
I don't like the description ofpeople telling me success is
having $5 million or having 14cars, or having three houses.
I'm making it up here.
(07:49):
To me that's not success.
But success is a littledifferent for me.
What is your definition ofsuccess?
Speaker 3 (07:56):
Yeah, unfortunately, the definition of success for me
meant what you mentioned there.
That was what I started to seeand that was the picture that
was painted to me at theuniversity.
The teachers was talking about,you know, topping classes,
getting scholarships, workinghard, getting the awards and
having that attitude of winning.
That was success at university.
(08:17):
And then that's what I pickedup on and I brought that
mentality with me into thecorporate world later on, where
I started then as an accountexecutive in an advertising
American advertising company inThailand and I would say that I
elbowed my way up the corporateladder until I reached the
managing director position andthen I had what the world
(08:40):
defined as success.
I did, I defined it as success.
That was what everyone saw.
But that's when, also, Istarted to crash.
That was the beginning of myfall.
Once I had reached that top, itwas like an illusion to climb
that corporate ladder, becauseonce I had that house with five
floors, driver, maids and thefull squad of people serving me,
(09:04):
that was when I was the mostungrateful and sort of unhappy
ever in my life.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Well, that's fascinating because we talked a
little bit about coachingearlier and it's one of those
challenges.
Right, my experience withpeople who, in the corporate
world, they claw up, they workhard, they do this and that.
Then they get to a pointregularly of going.
There's two things that usuallyhappens.
I feel like an imposter how thehell did I get here?
And B, is this worth it?
(09:31):
Is this 80, 90 hour a weekclawing, doing what I need to do
, really worth it?
So I'm sure that you've seenleaders have some of these
challenges.
I'd like to hear more, a littlebit about that and even talk
about your challenges, if youwant to.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
Yeah, absolutely so.
In 2015 is the year that I'mreferring to.
That's when I basically startedgoing down.
I resigned from my job.
Then I was, you know,dilutional.
I was unhappy and with thatalso I lost myself and I filed
for a divorce because I wasn'tready to have any conversations
(10:07):
around it.
So with that I became veryisolated, very lonely.
I then traded my healthy dietfor fast food and pizza.
I traded my gym membership fora bar stool and basically gained
about 50 60 pounds.
And the issue is that is that onthe outside, people thought
that it's good to see thatyou're not always just working,
(10:29):
it's good that you have some funas well.
And I sort of picked up on thatand I just made excuses and
said I'm in transition, I haveanother new project coming, but
that was all lies.
I was jumping from project toproject, burning through my
savings and before I knew it Iwas broke and I would become an
alcoholic.
So that was my fault and ittook me two or three years to
(10:49):
slide down to my rock bottom andto answer your question about
others yes, I've seen it in somany and if I'm looking at the
numbers here in Southeast Asiaaround 10% to 20% of all the
senior executives here findthemselves in that kind of
addiction space.
Perhaps many call themselvesfunctional addicts, and it could
(11:10):
be drugs, alcohol, gambling,sex or anything else that they
seek to be able to cope with allthe pressures, but eventually
it only takes something for thewheels to fall off there as well
.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Well, you know also, the definition of success
sometimes is like hey, you know,when you go out corporately and
have a bunch of drinks, that'sthe success, that's a mark of
success.
And I don't know if that's yourexperience, that you've seen
with some of the executives, butI've certainly seen that as oh
yeah, we got to go mingle andhave a couple of drinks and then
suddenly it becomes you justdrink and you're no longer
(11:43):
mingling and you're just lookingforward to your next drink.
Speaker 3 (11:46):
I don't know if that's your experience, but
certainly my experience withsome corporate level jobs.
Yeah, that was the experience Ihad and that was how I delivered
in Southeast Asia.
I worked mainly in Thailand,vietnam and Indonesia and I
worked in everything fromadvertising agency to medical
services companies to fashioncompany and in business
(12:07):
development.
It was about taking out clientsto entertain them, and it would
be clients coming from US orEurope stopping over in Asia,
and you were expected to takethem out for dinner and drinks
and it seemed like the moredrinks you had, the more
assignments you managed to getthem to sign up and they would
come back for more.
So it was going hand in handand I remember my boss cheering
(12:29):
on me, encouraging me to go outand network and entertain as
much as possible, and with thatI brought back more contracts.
So that part of my career, itseems like the more I was
consuming alcohol and going out,the better I performed.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
And the better you perform, but the less you
perform really in your personallife, because it's just, you
don't have a personal lifeanymore, right?
Speaker 3 (12:51):
Yeah, and it was destroying my health, and the
issue is that I was also indenial about it.
While I mentioned it was 2015,.
When it started to become anissue for me.
It was early signs alreadyaround 2004,.
2005, when I actually ended upin hospital on a Monday with
hypertension and the doctorsgiving me medication and so on.
(13:11):
I didn't realize that at thetime, and neither did the
doctors, that it was alcoholrelated, but it was obviously
after a big weekend outconsuming way too much alcohol.
No wonder that I was strugglingmaking it into the office on a
Monday morning.
Those were the early signs, butI didn't see it as that,
because alcohol is so sociallyacceptable, especially when it
(13:31):
comes to business andentertainment and on the
weekends also going out playinggolf in 40 degree Celsius that's
, 100 Fahrenheit plus right andconsuming alcohol, no wonder
you're going to get sick.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Well, what's funny is that I go play golf now and
this has been a few years nowwith a few people who are in
full sobriety, and I don't drinkwhen I play golf.
I had pre-interview and youguys heard me on the podcast
talk about some of the stuff Iwent through.
Not only is it hypertension, Ithink that how does it affect
(14:05):
even your mentality and how youthink about things?
I think you become so consumedwith either the job or alcohol,
but you're never like dealingwith other stuff that's
happening in your life?
Speaker 3 (14:16):
Yeah, absolutely, and it becomes a full circle.
The issue is that one bad habitor one addiction easily leads
to another.
And the most people that I workwith and coach, especially
senior executives if you askthem about the big issues that
happen in their life, if it isthat they end up with drugs or
prostitution or gambling orlosing a lot, and you ask them
(14:38):
what and how did this all start,how did it come about?
It always starts with alcohol.
They wouldn't say that they'vegone out buying drugs or going
to see prostitutes andeverything that comes with that
Sober.
It normally starts over dinnerand then drinks and then on it
goes.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Yeah, and I think that that's the other part too
is that we start doing thingsthat we're not proud of and now
we start wanting to drownwhatever we're not proud of with
more alcohol.
So that way, you don't need tothink about it.
I think it's a vicious cycle,and I see that in corporate
America as much as I see it inthe first responder world that I
work with regularly, because wedo stuff we're not proud of or
(15:21):
we have a trauma that comes fromit, and it's very difficult,
and I think you talked a littlebit about your own traumas in
regards to, you know, getting ina motorcycle accident, having
to redo your life and nowsuddenly realizing alcohol is
taking over your life.
Now you got to redo your lifeagain, and that's all traumatic
for people, if you ask me.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
Yeah, absolutely, and it's almost seven years ago now
since I quit drinking alcohol,but it was only after again was
the motorcycle accident was thefirst sort of big change in my
life.
Stopping alcohol was the secondone, and it was not easy to
give it up.
It was something that I knew Ihad to, but it I actually had to
(16:00):
be quite sick, I had to be sosick and tired that I was sick
and tired of being sick andtired.
In the end to be able to giveup there and uh, and you know, I
remember at that time life wasso miserable.
I've written my will, I'vewritten my testament and I
really was preparing to leavethis place.
I wasn't suicidal, but I wascertainly accepting that my body
(16:20):
was giving up on me, I wasaccepting that I was going to
die and therefore I better cleanup my act.
So that was the stage I was in,and it was only when I started
to send out those signals,sending these documentations to
my loved ones and people aroundme.
And this time I met a new girlwho today is my second wife, and
when they started to questionit and I decided to open up to
(16:42):
her and I explained how I feltinternally.
That was my turning point thistime, because then I was exposed
and with that recovery waspossible.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Recovery is always possible by talking about it,
and that vulnerability, I think,is the hardest part.
You talked a little bit aboutwhat happens when you go into
corporate America and all that.
The other part that we talkedabout pre-interview is isolation
, and I think that sometimesalcohol know, sometimes alcohol
isolates us and sometimes weisolate ourselves because of the
alcohol.
(17:11):
But what's your experience inregards to your own high level
executive jobs and the isolationthat goes with that?
Speaker 3 (17:20):
Yeah, isolation is a big part of the pressure jobs
because many times perhaps andif you think about them in asia,
where many are expats perhapsyou're out here representing an
american company you know andyou're sitting in singapore and
hong kong or something like thatyou might be the only
english-speaking person in thatoffice.
You might not have even thoughthere's a few colleagues who can
(17:42):
speak some english.
You might not have enough incommon to even have a
conversation.
That's the kind of environmentthat I found myself in.
Many times I could be in anoffice with 300 people and no
one necessarily spoke English orwas a westerner.
So it was very difficult tohave any kind of conversation
that was not about work.
And if you sit there and youknow people speak another
(18:04):
language the whole time, thenthat can be very lonely, but it
doesn't have to be in adifferent language, it can just
be if you feel as an externalright and if you also don't have
a good connection with yourself.
If you're not well by yourself,then you can feel excluded
among your best friends.
So it starts with us, after all.
It starts with us, and if wedon't feel connected in the
(18:26):
workplace, then we better makesure that we have good
connection externally, that wego perhaps and see some people
for a sports academy or someactivity before and after work
and perhaps go out for a lunchbreak with someone who you can
speak to but and I think thatthe other part that I heard you
talk about is, you know wetalked being Swedish and you
(18:48):
know I experienced myself, likeyou know as much as I spoke
English I was.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
I'm from Quebec, born and raised, and my first few
years here there was thiscultural I don't even know what
to call it, but I just missed myculture.
It's not that the Americanculture and Canadian culture
isn't that different, but thereis differences, and I j joked
around, I think, with youearlier, like you don't call
someone from sweden a finnishand you don't call a finnish
person swedish.
(19:15):
Uh, because there is adifference, even though there's
similarities, and we both knowthat, but there's a lot of
differences too.
How did you deal with even thatcultural isolation, which does
happen, not only because ofcorporate America, but, like you
didn't move from Sweden toFinland, like I did from the US,
you moved the other side of theworld Australia, singapore,
(19:36):
southeast Asia.
I mean, that's a huge change.
Did the cultural shock reallyaffect you?
Speaker 3 (19:42):
Yeah, it's huge indeed and, as it happens many
times, we live perhaps in anexpat area where at least it's
some Westerners, people who havesimilar kind of religion,
similar kind of hobbies andactivities and so on.
Then at least you can speakEnglish language.
So it seems like that's wherewe start, at least these days.
I'm more integrated.
(20:03):
I'm now remarried for six years.
Also.
My wife now is Indonesian.
I don't speak the language, butshe's very international.
But at least that had broughtme a little bit closer to the
Asian culture, which made it alittle bit easier also for me to
feel at home here.
But it's not easy in thebeginning and one way I managed
(20:24):
to get around that in thebeginning was going out and
drinking alcohol, but I don't dothat anymore.
So I need to find somethingmore authentically to do these
days, and it's for sport.
I do a lot of sport these days.
I swim, I cycle, I run, Ibelong to swim academies and so
on where I meet other people andhang out, and it can be both
locals and Westerners andforeigners as well.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
I was going to joke around.
I mean, mean, what's sport?
Curling or hockey but I wasjust a joke, obviously.
But yeah, um, there's alwaysthese stereotypes and I
understand that.
But getting into swimming andrunning and everything else, did
that also bring you closer tonot only work being close to
other people because you're anexpat, but you're also working
with being authenticallyyourself, because it's not an
(21:07):
executive situation, it's allthat.
You're just doing sports,you're doing stuff with people.
Did that help you become moreof who you truly are?
Speaker 3 (21:16):
Yes, it did.
And actually I really enjoysports and I love socializing
through sport because I'm anintrovert, socializing through
sport because I'm an introvert.
So I tend to like any activitywhere you are, you know, side by
side running, walking, hiking,cycling, you know that's.
That's a fantastic place for meto have a conversation, because
(21:38):
you don't have to look at eachother straight in the eyes and
you would know this as atherapist how you set up the
chairs and all these kind ofthings.
If you want people to talk,maybe not not face them straight
in the eyes, which is perhapsnot the easiest for an introvert
, but I found that really easyfor me to chat away.
And also, when you're runningand your heart rate is high and
you can breathe and so on, thenthe conversations tend to be
(22:01):
quite positive and deep and soon.
So I do most of my socializingthese days actually through
exercise.
So the bar stool again wastraded back to exercise.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
I think that that's a great exchange.
If you ask me, changing fromthe bar stool to sports, that's
just me, but I also think thatthat brings you more to your
authentic self.
Do you feel like not only didsobriety bring you there, but
also does that help in otherparts of your life?
Because you were talking alittle earlier about the
executive, I find that intherapy you talked about therapy
(22:33):
earlier and even the podcast.
If you saw me in my privatelife versus my therapy versus a
podcast, you kind of see thesame guy.
I'm not much different from onesituation to another, but
sometimes when you go fromexecutive to family to
everything else, you change yourpersona.
So did you find that executivesalso struggled with being
(22:53):
themselves in particularsituations?
Speaker 3 (22:56):
Yeah, absolutely, I struggle and I see others
struggle.
It's about putting on that maskand making sure that you are
that person and I remember,especially in the jobs where you
had to wear a formal suit, itwas not really where I felt
comfortable in and wearing a tie, my ties- and I was hoping
(23:21):
never again.
And then last year I was invitedto a dinner when I had to get a
tie, so I bought one for justthat occasion, but I prefer to
be a bit more relaxed and so on.
So, yes, I'm much more myauthentic self these days, being
more of an entrepreneur, doingspeaking, coaching, training,
workshops and all these kinds ofthings.
Even though I speak also at alot of conferences and a lot of
them would wear suits, Iactually come in in a t shirt
(23:42):
and a suit jacket and I'm finewith that.
There was only one time theyhad a requirement to wearing a
tie and, yeah, I will play alongfor one time then, but it's not
really me.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
I respect that and I certainly am the same way.
This is okay, Like it, but I'mnot someone who likes to wear
the same things.
I think that showing up withwho you are and how you dress is
so important.
Did you feel that by being alittle more yourself, dressing
the way you wanted also createda better relationship with
people?
You're coaching people in yourspeaking engagements, and so on
(24:11):
and so forth.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Yes, absolutely, and I think one of the reasons
behind my success in thecoaching space is my
authenticity, and my success inthe coaching space is my
authenticity, the fact that I'msharing my story today with you
here, steve and the listeners,about hitting rock bottom,
having fallen into alcoholismand climbing out of that.
Those are things that I alsoshare in my book, the Executive
(24:34):
Loneliness book.
So my story is out there, whichcreates a lot of trust.
People feel quite safe to comeand see me and in fact if
someone applying for a job in mycompany I send them a PDF copy
of my book and I refer them topage 30 in the book, which is
when I'm explaining abouthitting a rock bottom so that's
the toughest day in my lifeexplained very much in detail
(24:55):
there.
So I figure if someone readthat then they know the most
difficult day in my life.
Then they can come to a jobinterview and they feel pretty
safe.
And I've had candidates cominginto my job interviews with me
who already within five minutessay that they actually couldn't
stop reading my book.
They read all my book off thepages they've been referred to
(25:15):
and they would share that theyperhaps had to have a suicide
attempt themselves, in theirlife, behind them and stuff like
that.
People have shown me scars andall these kind of things and
those are the kind ofconversations we've had as a
result of me being vulnerable,me being open, me being
transparent and playing thefirst card, first card, making
them feel safe, and that's agood start for any conversation,
(25:39):
rather than trying to show off.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Yeah well, showing off never works out in all
reality, if you ask me.
It may help you in the shortterm, but the long term it just
screws you over, and the suicidestuff happens regularly.
When people hit the rock bottomand them opening up about them
must have felt good for you.
Have you had those thoughtsyourself?
Have you tempted yourself oranything like that?
Speaker 3 (26:02):
No, I haven't.
No, but alcohol was sort of,you know, putting me in a state
where I was slowly killingmyself.
I call perhaps alcoholism aslow, gradual suicide.
So in one sense yes, but Ithink it doesn't put you in that
state, At least it didn't dothat with me.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
No, I'm happy that you did not, and I think that
there's I call alcohol slowsuicide, because you can't live
with yourself, and I think thatyou've talked about it and it's
one of the things that I do withmy coaching staff people that I
talk to is that we get to apoint where we use substances,
(26:44):
alcohol or drugs in order to notdeal with our mental health.
And I know you went back toschool going for your mental
health stuff, but I I to meagain.
Yes, you're going to say I'm atherapist and of course, I'll
have to say that, but I think itall comes back to mental health
and I don't know what yourexperience is with that.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
Yeah, I would fully agree with you, stephen.
That's why, in my coaching inthe last few years now, I felt
many times that I fell short,and that's why I'm now studying
to become a therapist and acounselor as well, so that I can
help my clients better.
I now work in tandem with someother therapists so I refer them
(27:21):
to them and I will keep doingthat for specialists and cases
and so on.
But my space is addiction.
That's where I fell and that'swhere I raised and that's where
I believe I can make an impact,and quite a few people have said
that they appreciate to talk tosomeone who's been there, who
knows what it is to hit rockbottom, and that's where I
(27:42):
believe I can add a lot of valuemoving forward as well and I
think you can, because of yourexperience and what you've been
through with everything that youjust shared.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
Has there been a story or a couple of people or
things that stick out, that itwere a breakthrough story?
That you're going oh my god,this was like amazing because of
the coaching, because ofeverything else well I can say.
Speaker 3 (28:02):
Firstly, a sad story was in 2019, one year into my
own recovery.
I lost a friend to suicide insingapore.
This was a successful seniorexecutive who I was doing some
work together with, who I sadlylost, and, and that, though,
gave me the courage to speak up,because until then, I was one
(28:23):
year into my recovery, but itwas a closed circle.
It was my recovery group and myfamily and a few close friends
who knew what had happened, butwhen he sadly died, so suddenly,
I asked his brother for thepermission to share my story and
to write a book about this, andI actually wrote my executive
loneliness book in the memory ofSimon, my friend I lost then.
(28:47):
So, because I wanted to get themessage out there, because I
said, basically, we need tobecome comfortable discussing
the uncomfortable was my message, and so that was my.
That was a sad case.
With that book coming out andwith me starting to talk about
this, I have met several people,including people I interviewed
(29:08):
for the book, who, actually, atthe point of interviewing them
one woman I can remember vividly, who I interviewed about it she
said to me that she hadrehearsed her own suicide twice.
When we sat down and this wasactually at the case where she
was pretty close to triggeringit and executing the suicide.
(29:30):
So the fact that I had reachedout to her to interview her for
my book, it gave her a chance tospeak up about her own thoughts
on suicide and with that herpattern was broken Because
obviously, talking on theseconversations, I already also
had counselors andpsychotherapists and
professionals on standby shouldhelp be needed, and I was quite
(29:52):
quick to ask for permission tocall for professional help and
we got professional help andwith that she also shared with
this therapist her plans and heasked for the permission to also
inform the husband on this.
With this the husband also gotinvolved and we all had some
good conversation about it.
And I remember what she saidwhen this came to shore.
(30:14):
She said I can't believe that Ijust shared this and I can't
believe that I was actuallyplanning my own suicide.
She couldn't believe how stupidit sounded to herself, the fact
when she just spoke it out.
She's sort of a similarexperience like me.
She was on her way back alreadyand these days she's changed
(30:35):
her career and she has her lifeback and living her best days
now.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
That's an amazing story and I'm happy that she was
able to share that with you.
Suicide is such a controversialthing for so many people and I
always describe it from myperspective and it's the most
courageous, cowardly act youcould ever do, because it's both
courageous and cowardly and Idon't put it as I don't say that
to my clients when obviouslythey're having those thoughts
(31:01):
but it's also the way out, right, because then when you don't
see the way out, that's the onlychoice you feel you have.
Speaker 3 (31:07):
Yeah, unfortunately that's what I'm hearing also,
and I also run a men's supportgroup where we are about 21, 22
men now.
We meet once a week to discusswhat's going on in our minds and
within that group every sort ofweek there will be two or three
(31:27):
who are in that space when it'sgetting pretty dark and they
cannot really see a way out.
But just the fact to log on andtalk about it is sometimes all
that we need, just to be able toshare that.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
It's tough right now rather than keeping it
internally.
The biggest protective factorof suicide to me is having
connections with other people.
Whether you're introvert orextrovert, it doesn't matter.
If I know that I can turnaround and say look, nick, I
need your support and I knowI'll get it from you.
That'll save me from a lot ofsuicidal thoughts and or
(32:00):
attempts.
So I think social support isgreat.
When you talk about the men'sgroup that you're running, do
you talk about anything specificor is it just like you let
people talk and they talk aboutwhat's going on in their lives?
Speaker 3 (32:13):
We have a theme every week and I will propose the
theme in advance, unless we haverequests.
We always have a request.
One time One week it can besleep, one time it can be
learning mindset, growth mindset, another time it can be
addiction, next time it can bechildren or relationships.
(32:34):
So we basically, and then wedon't have to share on that
theme, but we are welcome andencouraged to do that and
typically we have some readingswe share with everyone before.
So it's almost like a recoverygroup, but you don't have to be
in recovery or be an addict tojoin it, and that's why I
(32:55):
started.
I thought it was so good and Iwas fortunate that I had a
drinking problem, so I ended upin one of those recovery groups.
But I thought then well, it'sunfortunate that you have to
become an addict to get into oneof those rooms.
So that's why I sort of createdthis space for anyone and it's
for men.
We all go through differentchallenges.
(33:15):
We don't have to fall intoaddiction to have challenges in
our life.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
I mean, I'll challenge that a little bit with
you, and what I mean by that isI agree with you, but I'll add
to it.
I think that everyone isaddicted to something.
I think we all have addictionissues.
Some people are addicted totheir jobs, some people are
addicted to working out, somepeople are addicted to the money
, but there's always anaddiction.
So that's why, when I hearabout the exclusionary well,
(33:44):
you're not drinking alcohol,that's the only addiction we
address I always find that likekind of cop out, because I think
we all struggle with some sortof addiction.
Speaker 3 (33:49):
Yeah, absolutely, and I like that and maybe you know
we could have a recovery.
It should be one of thoseofficial 12-step recovery
programs and perhaps for justgeneral addiction, I don't know.
Now they all filtered, you know, depending on what addiction,
but at the end actually it's thesame program.
It's 12 steps, right, and it'sonly one of those 12 steps that
is about drugs, alcohol, sex orwhatever it is.
(34:12):
The rest is the same.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
I mean, you talk about sex addiction.
You talk about other types ofaddictions.
To me, they're all the same inthe sense that they have a
common theme.
You're trying to solve some ofyour mental health issues by
going into addiction.
You feel lonely.
Sometimes people will throwthemselves into work or workouts
so that they don't need to dealwith their loneliness.
My experience is that youshould have a.
(34:34):
You're right.
Maybe me and you can come upwith a nice general statement
and we can have men's group andwomen's group who talk about
their supports that they need.
In regards to working out onsleep, you know, talk about
sleep, talk about eating healthyand I always talk about
nutrition versus diet, becausethat's the most important part
and really paying attention toyour body.
(34:55):
You know, like if your bodyaches somewhere, pay attention
to it.
What are you going to do aboutit?
But I think that that's whatsometimes addiction gets you.
Oh, I feel a little pain here.
Let me put a little alcohol onit or put a little pill on it.
It'll go away.
It ain't going to go away, it'sjust going to be covered.
Speaker 3 (35:11):
Yeah, yeah, exactly, I agree with you there.
And also I should say that youknow, know, it's not only men's
group I I run.
I also run confidential peergroups for senior executives.
We have also groups forentrepreneurs where they discuss
with like-minded mixed groupsand at their seniority level,
and there they mainly discusswork-related matters.
(35:31):
So the pressures at work andthe biggest challenges they
discuss in the group is how tomanage upwards, how to manage
the boss, the board, thepartners, the owners, followed
by recruitment of staff,retention and all these things
that people would have in common.
So they have a place where theycan discuss these challenges
and support each other, and alsofor entrepreneurs, because
(35:52):
entrepreneurs can be very lonelyas well, so that you have other
entrepreneurs to have a groupwhere you can discuss your
challenges and help each other.
We also have women groups forthe women, and my wife is
actually leading that initiative.
So I believe we need these safeplaces and sometimes we need
perhaps just between us men havesome conversations and I think
(36:12):
that's fine.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
Yeah, and I think that we got to celebrate these
differences without saying thatit's special, and I think that
that's how I perceive it.
Is that, yeah, I perceive it isthat, yeah, I have a group for
first responders, for example,and I think that that's
important, but if they need amen's group, they need a support
group for their substances.
Those are also very valid andthey need to go to that.
(36:34):
But we need to have I'm happyto hear about these groups for
peers who are talking aboutcorporate stuff, because I think
it's good to know that you'renot alone, and I think they see
that way too many times when Italk about coaching with my
corporate people.
Speaker 3 (36:48):
Yeah, certainly the corporate world can be lonely
and isolated, as we discussedbefore, and it's also a fine
line how vulnerable you can bein the workplace.
Yes, you should be vulnerableabout the challenges you are
facing at work, if you are.
For example, in my case, I wasnot very good at Excel, but I
was too scared to go to admitthis to my boss.
I wanted to become a processperfect, so I didn't share with
(37:10):
her that I needed support withExcel and then I made mistakes
and I covered up for that.
I should have been vulnerable.
I should have said I'm not sogood at this, can I get some
help or can I get some support?
But I wasn't.
I was scared to be judged andso on.
That's the vulnerability weshould have, but I don't
encourage people to come in andshare everything that's going on
in their personal life in theoffice because that could start
(37:32):
to be used against them andgossiping and so on.
That we need are safe places.
Perhaps one or two colleagueswe can share things that we're
going through personally in theoffice, but not overshare with
everyone.
That's not my point invulnerability here.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
Yeah, and I think that that's where people have to
understand about oversharingversus vulnerability.
There's a very thin linebetween the two and finding that
actual line is always veryimportant, very difficult.
So I agree with you.
Well, you know, I would like toget your word out, get
everything that.
Where can people reach you?
Where can people go find you?
Speaker 3 (38:06):
I'm quite active on LinkedIn so if anyone is on
LinkedIn they can look up NickJohnson and it's
N-I-C-K-J-O-N-S-S-O-N.
Otherwise, my book ExecutiveLoneliness is on Amazon and it's
also on audible, if someoneprefer the audio book okay, and
then we can.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
What I'll do is I'll I'll link to the show notes your
book on amazon.
I will also link your linkedinprofile and then I'll put in
your website so people can goand get it.
So that way they'll know how toprint and how to like spell
nick johnson, because I had Iwhen I wrote it down the first
time I screwed up.
So that's, that's on me.
It is the Swedish definite, thespelling of the word.
(38:45):
So for all my American andCanadian friends listening, yes,
it's the Swedish writing ofJohnson fantastic.
Speaker 3 (38:53):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
Nick, I really appreciate you truly.
Your vulnerability and yourability to go from subject to
subject was really appreciatedand I thank you for your time.
Speaker 3 (39:01):
Thank you so much, Steve.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
Thank you for episode 203, nick Johnson, really
appreciate you having there.
Hope you join us for episode204 with Bet Saldo.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
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