May 28, 2025 • 44 mins
Steve Bisson welcomes Cyndi Doyle, licensed professional counselor, retired police spouse, and founder of Code for Couples, to discuss the unique challenges faced by first responder relationships and strategies for building resilience.
• Meeting Cyndi Doyle - licensed professional counselor specializing in first responder relationships for over 20 years
• Understanding the "married but single" phenomenon that many first responder spouses experience
• Recognizing grief in relationships when expectations don't match reality
• How hypervigilance affects communication and connection at home
• The importance of perspective-taking to reduce resentment
• Standing in your partner's shoes to understand their experience
• Changing the narrative we tell ourselves about our relationships
• Finding gratitude amid the challenges of first responder life
• How unspoken traumas create both protection and distance
• Learning to listen rather than just hear your partner
Find Cyndi Doyle at code4couples.com
On social media @code4couples
Get her book "Hold the Line: The Essential Guide to Protecting Your Law Enforcement Relationship" at any online retailer.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action, where
strength meets strategy andcourage to help you move forward
.
Each week, your host, steveBisson, a therapist with over
two decades of experience in thefirst responder community,
brings you powerfulconversations about resilience,
growth and healing throughtrauma and grief.
Whether you're navigating thecomplex journey of grief,
(00:22):
processing trauma or seeking tobuild resilience in high-stress
environments, this podcast isyour trusted companion.
From first responders facingdaily challenges to emergency
personnel managing criticalsituations, to leaders carrying
the weight of difficultdecisions, we're here to support
your journey.
Through authentic interviews,expert discussions and
(00:43):
real-world experiences, we divedeep into the heart of human
resilience.
We explore crucial topics liketrauma recovery, grief
processing, stress managementand emotional well-being.
Our conversations bridge thegap between professional insight
and practical application,offering you tools and
strategies that work in the realworld.
(01:03):
Join us as we create a spacewhere healing is possible, where
grief finds understanding andwhere resilience becomes your
foundation for growth.
This is Resilience Developmentin Action with Steve Bisson.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Alors, bonjour tout le monde.
Hi everyone, welcome to episode206.
If you haven't listened toepisode 205, go back and listen
to Charlie Powell talk aboutHealing Heroes, where it's going
to be released theatricallysoon.
And, yes, I am planning ongoing to Cancun.
But for episode 206, we'regoing to talk to Cindy Doyle, so
someone I met through Facebookand we had a great conversation
(01:41):
there and I wanted her to joinus.
She is the founder of Code forCouples.
She has a great podcast.
Go listen to it.
She's a licensed professionalcounselor and a retired police
spouse.
She's author of Hold the Line,the Essential Guide to
Protecting your Law EnforcementRelationship, as well, as she
has a unique voice that talksabout the challenges faced by
law enforcement families.
(02:01):
She actually has that personalexperience, which is even better
, and we're going to talk aboutall that.
So here is the interview.
Getfreeai yes, you've heard metalk about it previously in
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(02:23):
GetFreeai is just a greatservice.
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because it is keeping track ofwhat you're saying and will
(02:46):
create, after the end of everysession, a progress note.
But it goes above and beyondthat.
Not only does it create aprogress note, it also gives you
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write a letter for your clientto know what you talked about.
So that's the great, greatthing.
(03:06):
It saves me time, it saves me alot of aggravation and it just
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I know that that's nothing.
That's worth my time, that'sworth my money, you know.
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(03:27):
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(03:49):
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So getfreeai code Steve50 tosave $50 on your first month.
(04:17):
Well, hi everyone and welcome toepisode 206.
You know, with the rebranding,I really was looking for people
who have a lot of experiencewith first responders, grief,
trauma and all that, and CindyDoyle, who has a great podcast
called Code for Couples, and ifyou don't know what Code for
means, you probably shouldn't belistening to this podcast.
But the bottom line is I reallyliked her podcast.
(04:41):
She reached out to me throughFacebook after I asked and I
find her fascinating and we hada great conversation right
before we started.
But, cindy Doyle, welcome toResilience, development and
Action.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
Thank you so much.
I appreciate it.
I love that you said if youdon't know what code four means,
you probably shouldn't belistening to the podcast there's
a quick little tidbit there.
When I was thinking about namingthe podcast, I was going
through different possible nameswith my husband and I had said,
what about code three?
And he said I don't think youwant couples to end up with
(05:17):
things on fire, right?
I'm like, yeah, but ourrelationships are a struggle.
He's like, yeah, but I thinkyou want to focus on what you
want them to be, not where theypossibly are.
So I love that you said that.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
You want to get to code four.
I think that's a good one, yes,but anyway, I love the name and
code three would have been agood name, but I don't know if I
and, truthfully, your husband'sabsolutely right.
Whoever he is, give him a lotof credit Because I would be
like code three, no, no, there'sno way I'm listening to that
crap.
I already deal with that as atherapist.
(05:52):
I don't want to deal with thaton my podcast.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
Right right Very much so.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
But yeah, look, I do my research and I have no team,
so it's me Did my research and Ihave no team, so it's me Then
my research.
Listen to your podcast, reallysubscribe for the record.
You, if you've ever listened tomy podcast, I never say
something.
I don't mean.
She is now in the like andsubscribe button on my podcast
list, so that's.
And then there's not like if Idon't say something.
(06:21):
Like.
Hopefully you don't know mewell, cindy, but I always say
the truth.
I don't like to lie to myaudience because I think that's
the shittiest thing you couldever do, but anyway, I feel like
I've known you, but I don'tthink my audience knows you yet.
So how about you introduceyourself?
Speaker 3 (06:36):
Sure, I am Cindy Doyle.
I am a licensed professionalcounselor in the DFW area.
I have a group practice.
I have been practicing for over20 years and I specialize in
working with law enforcement.
Actually, all first respondersin my office, as well as first
(06:58):
responder couples focusing on Ialways say I focus on mental and
emotional health.
I'm sorry I said that wrongMental and relational health.
I forget the relational partand that's the most important
part.
So emotional and relationalhealth to keep couples connected
and resilient.
But also it's really about ourfirst responders remaining
(07:20):
connected and resilient becausethere's so much research there
that shows that relationshipsare a safety issue.
So I kind of focus on thatangle.
I'm also, as you know, now a lawenforcement spouse.
He is retired after 21 plusyears.
I didn't make it to 22.
I pushed him to try to do thatand he's like I don't get any
(07:40):
more money for doing that.
So I was like all right, peaceout, let's go.
So he retired and has beenretired for almost four years
now.
He's the reason why I jumpedinto doing what I do.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
Because I married him and we could talk about that if
you want but married him anddid not.
Neither one of us realized whatwe were going to be going
through or how we would beimpacted by what he did or what
he saw on a regular basis, andour relationship struggled.
And it was only in me kind ofdigging in and finding out what
(08:18):
was underneath this that Istarted changing my relationship
, that I started changing myrelationship and as I did that,
I thought maybe I need to domore than just keep this with me
or the people coming into myoffice, and so I started a
podcast, because you know,that's what everybody does is
(08:38):
just starts a podcast for somerandom reason, right?
So in 2017, I started thepodcast and I have been really
intermittent.
I've tried to be much moreconsistent yes, consistent with
it over the past three years,for sure.
And then in 2020, because therewas nothing else to do ha ha,
(08:59):
ha ha I decided to write a bookand so I wrote the book Hold the
Line how to Protect your theEssential Guide to Protecting
your Law EnforcementRelationship.
So that's a little about me andI do a lot of speaking, and
just came back from Orlandoyesterday from speaking to NOLI,
which is the NationalAssociation of Women in Law
(09:19):
Enforcement and LeadershipExecutives.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Awesome, I thought you were going to say I to
mickey and minnie, but um didn'teven have time.
Flew in, spoke, flew out andthe other part too is when you
said hold the line, I justrealized there's a toto song, uh
, called hold the line yes, Iget that a lot yeah, but now,
now, if I like, I have a specialeffect board now, but I don't
(09:44):
know how to put in a song.
I would love to have to be ableto put that Too late now.
I think there's a lot of stuffthat you said there that was
really really good, because whatyou talked about is all the
adaption.
You adapt See, I'm havingtrouble you adapt to your law
enforcement spouse because ofwhat his life is or she
depending on the individual, butthere's also kind of like give
(10:13):
or take, and so it's really hardto experience that kind of like
change in the relationship,particularly when someone like
retires.
So I don't know where you wantto go start talking about a
little more about therelationship stuff.
I think that because of youknow weird, weird scheduling,
how it works and how there'scompromise and sacrifices on
both sides and all that stuffthat goes on, there's a lot of
grief and change in therelationship that occurs.
(10:34):
I don't know if you want to talka little more about that, but
that's where I would go.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
Yeah, I can just dive into kind of a little bit about
my story and how I recognizedthat it was grief, because it
took me a while to figure thatout and for us to kind of figure
it out.
I think, you know, I'm justgoing to do the traditional girl
thing, in the sense that Ithink girls think, oh, we're
(10:59):
getting married.
People get married becausethey're like oh, I'm going to
have this partner and thispartner is going to be there and
I'm going to be able to sit andhave dinner with somebody and
I'm not going to be alone andI'm going to have this partner
that I'm going to be doingthings with.
And what we quickly realize isthat it's almost like being
(11:22):
married but single, but you'renot really single either, right,
and so we wind up doing allthis stuff alone.
And in my relationship, when myhusband started his career, he
was doing eight-hour shifts.
So that changed over the years.
But eight-hour shifts, thatchanged over the years.
But eight-hour shifts we lookedat there was a time period of
(11:46):
about five years when we wereships passing in the night, and
this was way back when.
And so I would find things tofill my time, and for a while
that was scrapbooking and I tooka picture of him laying in bed
and blew it up into an eight by10.
(12:07):
Because that was in, scrapbookedit because that was our
relationship was me during theday on a Saturday, doing nothing
, trying to keep my dogs quiet.
I'd go run errands and thingslike that, all by myself.
He would get up around I don'tknow two or three.
I'd want to try to have aconversation with him but he was
(12:30):
tired, just waking up, blurryeyed, kind of focusing on what
he needed to do for the day,going in and I'd have him for
like an hour and a half, twohours, but not really, and then
he would go to work.
And so there was like thisfive-year period where we just
really didn't see or talk toeach other, and when we did, it
(12:51):
was sound bites, and so that'swhere I started getting
irritated.
He didn't really understand thatI was getting mad about it
because I wasn't showing it awhole lot.
I didn't want him to know.
I wanted to be the supportivespouse, right?
I wanted to be strong like him.
So I didn't let him know awhole lot, I just sucked it up.
(13:15):
I'm a Southern girl, so we puton our big girl panties and keep
going and just didn't share.
But I started shutting down.
I was getting mad, I was reallyresentful, and that's how our
distance kind of started.
And then along the way, that'swhen I kind of figured out.
(13:37):
I took some time clinician,look in the mirror, right Kind
of a thing and I took some timeto kind of figure out that it
was grief and there was a lot oflayers of it there.
And it wasn't until I startedlooking at that that I was able
to kind of change the narrativeand change the story about our
(13:58):
life and what it was going to belike.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
I find it fascinating that you talked about grief,
because I see your point, butone of the things that I would
say to you is I'm 100% suresomeone in my audience is going
to go how is that grief?
Grief is only when people die,and obviously I do have people
who will get a little more, andI'm not trying to put them down.
(14:23):
But can you explain more as towhy you consider it grief versus
?
Speaker 3 (14:28):
Absolutely yeah.
So when I, when I thought aboutbeing married to this guy that
I love so much, I thought aboutthe life that I would have with
him.
I thought about sitting downwith at the table and having
dinner.
I thought about going to eventstogether and what that would be
like.
I thought about havingvacations.
I thought about all this waythat my life would be right.
(14:54):
Because as we go along, we startdeveloping a narrative, we
start developing a story of whatmarriage is supposed to be like
or your relationship issupposed to be like.
So as you develop this narrativeand your brain has these, even
when we're doing like justimagining what that story is,
our brain is developing theseneural pathways as far as what
(15:15):
they are, and then, when thingsdon't happen, it causes a
conflict happen, it causes aconflict.
And I had to stop and look atwhat I thought it was going to
be and feel sad about not havingthat life that I thought I was
going to have before I couldmove to the life that I did have
(15:39):
.
I hope that makes sense.
So, as a spouse, it can bereally weird, because you show
up at events and people are likeoh, are you really married?
Why can't he get off work andfamily life looks different.
We weren't able to havechildren, but so many other
first responder families havekids and I don't think people
(16:01):
have kids and think, gosh, Ican't wait to be a solo parent
while you're at work, right?
So there's these aspects wherewe imagine what life is going to
be like and when it's not thatway, we develop resentment and
we have to grieve what wethought we were going to have
before we can move into thatacceptance.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
And I think that to me, that makes perfect sense,
because you know there's toomany things.
You said that I reallyresonated.
It's the narrative we create,right, I mean?
And if people don't believe inwhat narratives are you put on
this podcast, expecting acertain thing?
Did it occur or not, I don'tknow, but the narrative is oh
(16:47):
you know, cindy and Steve aregoing to be the most interesting
people I've ever met To.
Oh my God, this is going to beso fucking boring about couples
and is going to blame the firstresponder, cop, whatever Reality
was going to be somewhere inbetween anyway.
But the narrative that we createin our lives about other people
is absolutely where we get theanger, the sadness, the surprise
(17:10):
, the disgust and all those core.
And then we take it out on ourspouses or people we trust and I
put this in quotation marks forthose in YouTube here because,
yeah, we trust them, but wedon't trust them enough to say,
look, I'm feeling sad that wedidn't get the life that I
thought we would have.
So I don't know if I got becauseyou were saying I'm not sure it
(17:33):
makes sense, that's it.
But I want to make sure I kindof like translate it and if I
got it wrong, correct me ifyou're my mom.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
No, that's, that's exactly it, and I can even give
specific examples that probablyeverybody in your audience can
resonate with.
Here's one, the one where youthink you're going to go on
vacation and then, oh, by theway, the schedule gets switched,
people quit and now you have topick up the shifts, and now
(18:00):
vacation is canceled.
Or we thought we were going togo on a date and now we can't
because this other third partyin our relationship tends to
have some influence.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
You know, there's this first responder life, just
for the record.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
Yes, the third party being the first responder life.
It can even be the idea ofhypervigilance coming home,
right?
So hypervigilance coming homeis this downside.
And so first responders at workmany times they're up and alive
.
At home they are down anddisconnected because their brain
has to recover.
(18:36):
My husband and I I would want tohave conversation with him
because I hadn't seen him right.
So I'm the girl that he hitsthe door because I hadn't seen
him Right.
So I'm, I'm the girl that hehits the door and I'm like, oh
my gosh, so how was your day,what are you doing?
And I wanted to have thisconversation about what his day
was like and what I would get.
Initially he was fine with it.
Initially he would talk to meabout what happened and then, as
(19:00):
the career went along as youknow, many times that career
becomes same shit, different dayhe used to say I'm the trash
man is what he would say.
I'm cleaning up everybody'sgarbage and shit.
And so I missed that.
I'm like, well, no couples talkabout these things and we
(19:20):
should have these conversations.
No couples talk about thesethings and we should have these
conversations.
And that downside ofhypervigilance means that he's
tired, and so if we don't knowthat that's the brain and that
there needs to be recovery, thenI can't understand and I can't
grieve the fact of like, hey,this job has an impact.
(19:40):
But as his spouse, if Iunderstand and I can grieve what
I think is supposed to happen,then I can make something else
happen.
I mean, he has grief too.
And the fact of like we wouldtry to plan we had this one
pizza party planned one time andbought all the ingredients.
We had something like 12 peoplecoming over six couples, I
(20:02):
think.
Bought all the ingredients.
We had something like 12 peoplecoming over six couples.
I think I had prepped all thepizza dough.
He had wine pairings set up forall the courses we were going
to do and I think everybody wascoming over at 5.30 and at four
o'clock he got called in and I'mlike, well, there goes that
right.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
And I think that there's so many things you
brought up that made perfectsense to me.
And when you mentioned that,it's like I've worked with
detectives and sometimes, whenyou're in smaller departments
maybe not Dallas-Forth Worthstyle, but smaller departments
there's usually one detectiveand if the call comes in on your
(20:45):
day off, well, we onlydetective.
So, yeah, pizza or not, you, yougotta go to, you gotta go to
your call, and that affects awhole lot of people and there's
a lot of grief and loss withthat.
Yeah, I think that that's oneof the other things too, and
people don't understand that.
Um and this maybe I wish yourhusband was here, but you can
maybe speak of this too.
One of the things that I hearso often from my first responder
(21:06):
world people is that I don'twant to get home and tell you
about the brain Sorry, triggerwarning the brain splatter from
someone who shot themselves inthe head.
I want to tell you about thatbecause that's like triggering
for me.
I don't want to trigger you andthere's spouses that take that
personally.
You think I can't handle it.
Trigger you and and there'sspouses that take that
personally you think I can'thandle it or you think you're
stronger and that it createsthis big resentment that we
(21:29):
talked about earlier.
But I don't know.
You can correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what I found a lot
when my guys yeah I, I agree,and at the beginning he would
share that with me.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
I do, you know, I do trauma in my therapy room so I'm
like I hear all kinds of stuff.
It doesn't really impact me awhole lot, but there's things
that he doesn't want to recountand so there's I didn't know
different stories.
He would tell me some storiesand then there were.
I found out after he retired.
Actually we were doing a podcasttogether about grief and he
(22:05):
started talking about how he,when he went to therapy to work
through some of the incidencesand he starts talking about this
incident and I looked at himand I said you never told me
about this.
He said I didn't want you toknow everything.
I didn't want you to have tothink about and see everything
that I saw.
I wanted to protect you and Ididn't want to have to think
(22:27):
about it myself.
So there are stories that heshares and then there's just
gaps where I may not know, andthat's also grief, that he has a
part of his world that I'lljust never know, and he does
that to protect me.
But at the same time, as arelationship, it's kind of sad
(22:50):
like we can't share everythingor we don't choose to share
everything you know.
As a clinician, I definitelydon't share everything that I
hear as well, and working withfirst responders, I've heard
some pretty gruesome stuff, butI'm not going to come home and
tell him that, so it kind ofgoes both ways.
But yeah, just because of ourprofessions, how do you deal
(23:10):
with the resentment?
Well, goal so because that'swhat it leads to, right, I mean
right, right I'm wrong, butthat's what it leads to no,
that's and that's where I got,and that's, uh, the catalyst for
me deciding in my relationshipthat I needed to figure out what
was going on and what was whatwas happening here.
(23:30):
Because, uh, year 12 which seemsto be a challenge for a lot of
first responder relationships,by the way, interesting Year 12,
year 13, I was having tempertantrums by myself.
I was doing a lot of likeflipping them off behind his
back kind of a thing.
I was really mad, I wasresentful it seemed like the
department always came first,that kind of thing and I was
(23:54):
irritated, I think, because Ididn't have a quote, unquote,
normal life like my friends did,and so I blamed him a little
bit as opposed to takingownership and looking at my
expectations.
So it was only when I decidedthat I didn't want to leave the
(24:16):
relationship but I couldn't keepliving the way I was living in
the relationship and holding onto that anger.
So it took me looking at myselfand actually, I think, sitting
in the therapy room one day andtelling another couple sometimes
you have to stand in the otherperson's shoes because maybe
(24:38):
there's something you don't getor understand and I said that
and I thought hello, cindy,dumbass, why aren't you doing
that, you idiot?
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Right.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
So that's when I thought maybe there's something
I don't get or understand.
And I remember writing out myanger and looking at why am I so
stuck on wanting a life thisway when I can have so much
gratitude for the life that I dohave?
And so moving that to grievingall these experiences that I
(25:14):
thought we would have.
Grieving holidays togetherthat's a big one for our field
of all the holidays likeChristmases and oh, I'm getting
emotional Christmas andunwrapping gifts and what that
would be like and our familiesgetting together and this idea
and this image.
And when I could let that go, Ilet the resentment go and then
(25:38):
I could have gratitude for allthe other aspects of our life
and really shift that around.
Because I think in grief youhave to let go and you can't say
why me or I wish right, and soin bargaining with that or it's
(26:00):
kind of learning to let that goand then moving to something
else, integrating it we can gointo resilience conversation if
you want, but it's that kind ofa thing and moving it around.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
You know, cindy, I know we.
I want to continue ourconversation.
We need to get back together atsome point.
You got to come back on becausethere's this is a great
conversation, because you talkabout getting emotional.
First of all, that's what Iwant from anyone who's on here,
because I want real talk.
I don't have, I'm a, I'm aHoward Stern guy.
Let's not fake.
Let's not fake thisconversation.
(26:33):
Let's be real.
Right, I'm going to also startnicknaming you DA, because you
said you were a dumbass, so Ican nickname you DA.
All joking aside, I'm going tolet you in on a secret about
therapists.
This is for the audience, notfor you.
What she just said happens tome at least every week.
(26:56):
Every other week I'm sayingadvice to someone.
I'm going, fuck, I shouldreally follow that.
Huh.
So if you, if if you're atherapist and you don't admit to
that, I'm sorry.
I admit to it freely.
I give my advice 95% of it.
Either I've followed it or Iwant to follow it.
So, yeah, just, we broke a wallhere.
So if you didn't want, justspeed up 30 seconds and you
(27:17):
won't have to.
But I mean, I love that becauseI have those moments and any
therapist worth their while,will admit to that.
And finally, you talked aboutgratitude.
One of the things that I I'velearned in life is that again my
audience knows I like to repeatthis my best friend died when I
was 12 in a fire, so for me,I'm not always grateful, but
(27:42):
I've learned that when I getupset or get into those quote
negative emotions, I go intogratitude because gratitude will
get me to where I need to be,and so I think that, when you
talked about gratitude, it'sgreat advice to give to couples,
in my opinion, because youfinding someone in this crazy
world is already a fuckingdifficult thing, and now you
(28:04):
found them.
So, yeah, there's going to besome fights.
It's not going to be allbutterflies and unicorns.
It's going to be some difficultmoments, and so that would be
great advice to talk aboutgratitude, difficult moments,
and so that would be greatadvice to talk about gratitude.
But do you have otherrecommendations for couples
other than gratitude whenthey're talking about their
couples and stuff like?
Speaker 3 (28:23):
that I go back to the first one of like standing in
Taylor's shoes.
What is it that we don'tunderstand?
And I have a little bit of astory about that actually around
the holidays, which is why itmakes me emotional.
I live in Dallas, fort Wortharea, north.
I actually live north of Dallasand Fort Worth and outside of
Denton, texas, and my parentslive in Austin, which is about
(28:46):
three and a half hours away fromme.
That's where I grew up and everyholiday, every Christmas, my
husband always had to work.
His higher up always took offand so it left him in charge so
and he had to be on call.
He was on call the last sevenyears, 24, seven.
He was on call the last sevenyears of his career and so it
(29:07):
was.
It made it really hard to goout of town or do anything
because he had to make sure he,his call, was covered.
So many times he would say he'slike no, go do whatever you
want to do, go visit yourparents, whatever.
So at Christmas time many timesI would just go down to Austin
because otherwise I'd be here bymyself.
I would always think about thisis bullshit, that every single
(29:29):
holiday I don't get him.
I was kind of thinking about melike I'm alone, I don't get him
right.
I was kind of thinking about melike I'm alone, I don't have
anybody to spend the holidayswith.
I would think about me a lotand how I was being impacted.
And I came home from Christmas,probably a Christmas afternoon,
walked in the house and he wassitting on the couch and he says
(29:53):
to me please don't ever go awayat Christmas again.
And I was like, okay, why?
A little annoyed, by the way.
And he said because everyChristmas Eve I sit in my patrol
car and I watch all the lightscome on and I think about how
(30:15):
people are getting together andgetting around a table and
eating with their families andlaughing and opening presents
and I feel so alone in thatmoment.
And then I come home and thehouse is dark and you aren't
(30:36):
here and it just emphasizesagain how I'm alone and I
thought, wow, I'm a real assholebecause I never thought about
that and what it might be likefor him to come home alone on
such a meaningful holiday.
(30:56):
He grew up in a big family andhis holidays were full of his
sisters and noisiness when theyget together.
They are a noisy Irish, italianfamily, if that explains any of
that, and so to come home, it'dbe dark, or even in the morning
, right, and just nobody's there.
(31:17):
It just emphasizes that andthat's when I started to realize
that.
So I would say perspectivetaking is one of the biggest
things that we can do isunderstand where, try to
understand where the otherperson may be, even though they
might not be verbalizing it maybe even though they might not be
(31:42):
verbalizing it.
A lot of times we are reactingto our story or what we
interpret is going on, insteadof thinking about what our
partner is doing.
That can help with resentmentas well, that you're doing this
together.
You're not just doing it byyourself.
Hopefully, hopefully, you'reboth going through this together
in a different way.
So perspective taking is a bigone, I think.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
the other really difficult Can I just stop you
for a second?
Because, I want another idea.
You mentioned Austin, and oneof my favorite authors is Brene
Brown.
I love Brene, she's my-.
Speaker 3 (32:15):
Did you know I'm certified in her work?
Oh, I didn't know that.
Brene Brown oh yeah, I love.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
Brene, did you know I'm certified in her work?
Oh, I didn't know that, brene,the dare to lead part or
everything else.
Speaker 3 (32:22):
The daring way and the rising strong part, yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
Well, I joke around and I'm going to lighten up the
mood a little bit and bring itback up again.
Yeah, I joke around with mygirlfriend.
She's my pass and she's likeyou.
I joke around with mygirlfriend, she's my pass and
she's like you know, most peoplewill choose like a hot,
attractive actress.
You got Brene Brown as yourpass.
I'm like, yep, that's my passbecause I love Brene so much and
her husband's name is Steve, sothere's no transition
(32:49):
whatsoever.
It's the same name.
There you go, but I talked aboutthe narrative and I thought
that was a great point.
The narrative that he had wasyou abandoned me on Christmas
Eve and Christmas day, and yournarrative is fuck him, I'm not
fucking around my holidaybecause he's working.
And when you think about thestories we tell ourselves and
(33:12):
that's my shout out to BreneBrown that's exactly where the
issue occurs is that we tellourselves a story about
something and yet we never, likeyou say, put yourself in
someone else's shoes, and theempathy Sorry to put in a little
therapy here, but sitting inthat empathy and that is just
amazingly.
That's the best advice I heard,because I think that that's what
(33:34):
I tell people when I get reallyangry.
I tell myself, okay, what's thestory I'm telling myself about
this and it so helps me to bringme back.
I'm not a hundred percent goodat it and there's no claim that
I am.
However, learning to get thatnarrative and thinking about the
other person's narrative is soimportant, so I apologize for
interrupting.
I know you were going to givesome advice, but I thought that
(33:56):
was important for me to name notonly Renee Brown, who, if she
ever listens to this, shout out,but love her, absolutely love
her, and the narrative and thestories we tell ourselves is
usually our biggest downfall ina couple and in relationships in
general.
Speaker 3 (34:15):
Yeah, I agree, and it's so important to look at
that because then when you getout of your own story, it can
help with that grief that you'refeeling, because it's like, oh,
this can be a shared situationas opposed, and that really
helped us.
That helped the two of us to say, like man, there are aspects of
(34:36):
this life that we chosetogether to be in this first
responder world and the factthat we're going through this
together and we can do this andresent it, or we can do it and
feel like, hey, we have someshared, similar experiences and
that really helped us to let go,to move through the grief of
(34:57):
the things that we have thegrief and he'll talk about it in
the sense that he didn't get tospend time with me in the way
he wanted to spend time with me,and that's one of his griefs.
It's only now in retirement,when now he has this medical
stuff that happens because ofhis career and so he's not as
(35:19):
healthy as he would have likedto have been.
So we still go through thoselittle griefs along the way.
Yeah, so changing the story isa big part of it.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
Yeah, you let go of a story you told yourself.
You will open yourself toopportunities to listen to other
people and hear their story andnot personalize it.
But again that's a little bitof again CBT.
So I do apologize for moretherapy here.
(35:50):
We'll keep on trudging aheadand the advice I give to some
couples is don't hear someone.
Listen to them, becauseSometimes it's a lot more
important, especially in firstresponder world.
We tend to hear but we don'tlisten.
And that's the advice I give tosome of the spouses as well as
the first responders.
I'm like he or she is tellingyou something.
Don't just hear, just listenand pay attention to what that
(36:15):
does.
Don't go with your gut reactionwhen they say you abandoned me
because that's a harsh sentence.
Let them finish the thought ofwhat that means and listen to
that conversation.
So that's the other advice Ihave.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
I don't know if you have other advice, but I'm just
going to tag onto that one alittle bit, because I think many
times we hear people's feelingsand we take it personal right,
and so I think also firstresponders, that fight or flight
aspect, it's automatic defensemechanism to like protect
themselves because of the fightor flight.
But I had somebody one time sayoh, I don't have to try it on
(36:54):
for size, I just have to examineit and I'm like, oh yeah, so I
don't know if that makes sense,like I just have to look at that
.
I don't have to like try it onand see if it fits and where it
pinches, and I don't like theway this fits.
Right, you don't have to try iton, you just have to look at
the shirt and just go like, oh,I see that design on that.
(37:18):
Hmm, that's interesting.
So that's one of my aspects ofit.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
Weird, I know.
I look at crop tops and I don'treally have to put them on to
say that ain't for me.
Speaker 3 (37:27):
Right.
I think the other advice Iguess I would have for couples
too, is it just kind of alongthe same lines of that gratitude
aspect that I would say it'slike many times we have
resentment for different aspectsof what comes home.
I can flat out admit that Ididn't grow up with guns, but my
(37:50):
husband carries one on aregular basis and so I would
think like, oh, this is soridiculous, you have to wear
something with a belt becauseyou've got to have a gun.
This is so stupid and like thatkind of feeling would get in
the way.
And I don't know that I havenecessarily grief around that,
(38:12):
but I did have the resentmentaround it.
And so what?
I funny story we were inBaltimore visiting and I'm
always like, do you have tocarry?
And we're in Baltimore in theback of a cab and I looked at
him and I said I kind of wishyou were carrying right now and
(38:32):
he started laughing because Ialways give him a hard time,
right.
And so there's these aspectswhere he will, because of who he
is, he may say, do things tomake me feel safer, or hey, you
know what, you need to be payingattention, and I'll hear it as
(38:53):
criticism, as opposed to saying,oh well, he's caring about me
and doesn't want bad things tohappen.
Right now, even like with thecaring aspect, I look at it and
I say he wants me to be safe, hewants me to.
You know, he wants to be ableto protect me.
What would it be like if hewasn't able to protect me and we
(39:14):
were out in public?
He would live with guilt therest of his life.
So a lot of that is kind ofspinning it around and having
those conversations in that way.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
Yeah, that's why Austin is all the liberals and
the rest of the Texas isdifferent.
But anyway, that's just mylittle joke about.
Speaker 3 (39:31):
Texas.
That's why we don't live inAustin, maybe.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
Well, I want to wrap it up here, but I definitely
want to hear more from you.
This is not an empty offer.
Please come back if you want.
I would love to have you backon.
Speaker 3 (39:48):
Oh, I'd love to.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
Because this is a great conversation.
I feel like I'm cutting ouraudience short to a great
conversation here, but how aboutyou tell me more, maybe about
either your podcast, your bookor both or whatever, and where
people can get that?
Speaker 3 (40:01):
Sure, everything pretty much is code for couples.
So you can find me on socialfor at code for couples.
If you want that, I'll give youmy LinkedIn stuff.
It's a little bit morecomplicated.
My podcast is literally codefor number four couples Um.
And my website is the samething code for couplescom Um.
(40:21):
My book is hold the line, theessential guide to protecting
your law enforcementrelationship, and you can find
it on any online retailer.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
Well, I'm going to be getting that book.
Um, I may send it to you andget it signed.
Um, the other joke I wanted tomake is when you said cold in
the number four, I was like, allright, charlie, oscar, delta,
echo.
And then I'm lost.
So I'm like, yeah, screw it,I'm not doing it.
Um, I'm not, I'm not.
I've never pretended to be afirst responder, I'm just a
mental health guy.
But truthfully, from the bottomof my heart, can't wait to have
(40:53):
you back on.
Cindy, please go listen to herpodcast.
I, I am a subscriber.
This is absolutely true.
I wish I could share that, butI definitely subscribe and I've
listened to a few of theepisodes and I want to thank you
for your time, cindy.
Speaker 3 (41:07):
Thanks for having me.
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
Well, that concludes episode 206.
Again, cindy Doyle, thank youso much, and hopefully you join
us for episode 207 withElizabeth Eklund, and I hope to
see you then.
Speaker 1 (41:21):
Please like, subscribe and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful and, as a reminder, this
podcast is for informational,educational and entertainment
purposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(41:45):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
You, you, you, you, you, you,thank you.
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action, where
strength meets strategy andcourage to help you move forward
.
Each week, your host, steveBisson, a therapist with over
two decades of experience in thefirst responder community,
brings you powerfulconversations about resilience,
growth and healing throughtrauma and grief.
Whether you're navigating thecomplex journey of grief,
(00:22):
processing trauma or seeking tobuild resilience in high-stress
environments, this podcast isyour trusted companion.
From first responders facingdaily challenges to emergency
personnel managing criticalsituations, to leaders carrying
the weight of difficultdecisions, we're here to support
your journey.
Through authentic interviews,expert discussions and
(00:43):
real-world experiences, we divedeep into the heart of human
resilience.
We explore crucial topics liketrauma recovery, grief
processing, stress managementand emotional well-being.
Our conversations bridge thegap between professional insight
and practical application,offering you tools and
strategies that work in the realworld.
(01:03):
Join us as we create a spacewhere healing is possible, where
grief finds understanding andwhere resilience becomes your
foundation for growth.
This is Resilience Developmentin Action with Steve Bisson.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Alors, bonjour tout le monde.
Hi everyone, welcome to episode206.
If you haven't listened toepisode 205, go back and listen
to Charlie Powell talk aboutHealing Heroes, where it's going
to be released theatricallysoon.
And, yes, I am planning ongoing to Cancun.
But for episode 206, we'regoing to talk to Cindy Doyle, so
someone I met through Facebookand we had a great conversation
(01:41):
there and I wanted her to joinus.
She is the founder of Code forCouples.
She has a great podcast.
Go listen to it.
She's a licensed professionalcounselor and a retired police
spouse.
She's author of Hold the Line,the Essential Guide to
Protecting your Law EnforcementRelationship, as well, as she
has a unique voice that talksabout the challenges faced by
law enforcement families.
(02:01):
She actually has that personalexperience, which is even better
, and we're going to talk aboutall that.
So here is the interview.
Getfreeai yes, you've heard metalk about it previously in
other episodes, but I'm going totalk about it again because
(02:23):
GetFreeai is just a greatservice.
Imagine being able to payattention to your clients all
the time, instead of writingnotes and making sure that the
note's going to sound good andhow are you going to write that
note, and things like thatGetFreeai liberates you from
making sure that you're writingwhat the client is saying,
because it is keeping track ofwhat you're saying and will
(02:46):
create, after the end of everysession, a progress note.
But it goes above and beyondthat.
Not only does it create aprogress note, it also gives you
suggestions for goals, givesyou even a mental status if
you've asked questions aroundthat, as well as being able to
write a letter for your clientto know what you talked about.
So that's the great, greatthing.
(03:06):
It saves me time, it saves me alot of aggravation and it just
speeds up the progress noteprocess so well, and for $99 a
month.
I know that that's nothing.
That's worth my time, that'sworth my money, you know.
The best part of it of it toois that if you want to go and
(03:27):
put in the code steve50 when youget the service at the checkout
code is steve50 you get $50 offyour first month and if you get
a whole year, you save a whole10% for the whole year.
So again, steve50 at checkoutfor getfreeai'll give you $50
off for the first month and,like I said, get a full year,
(03:49):
get 10% off, get free fromwriting notes, get free from
always scribbling while you'retalking to a client and just
paying attention to your client.
So they went out, you went out,everybody wins and I think that
this is the greatest thing.
And if you're up to a pointwhere you got to change a
treatment plan, well, the goalsare generated for you.
So getfreeai code Steve50 tosave $50 on your first month.
(04:17):
Well, hi everyone and welcome toepisode 206.
You know, with the rebranding,I really was looking for people
who have a lot of experiencewith first responders, grief,
trauma and all that, and CindyDoyle, who has a great podcast
called Code for Couples, and ifyou don't know what Code for
means, you probably shouldn't belistening to this podcast.
But the bottom line is I reallyliked her podcast.
(04:41):
She reached out to me throughFacebook after I asked and I
find her fascinating and we hada great conversation right
before we started.
But, cindy Doyle, welcome toResilience, development and
Action.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
Thank you so much.
I appreciate it.
I love that you said if youdon't know what code four means,
you probably shouldn't belistening to the podcast there's
a quick little tidbit there.
When I was thinking about namingthe podcast, I was going
through different possible nameswith my husband and I had said,
what about code three?
And he said I don't think youwant couples to end up with
(05:17):
things on fire, right?
I'm like, yeah, but ourrelationships are a struggle.
He's like, yeah, but I thinkyou want to focus on what you
want them to be, not where theypossibly are.
So I love that you said that.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
You want to get to code four.
I think that's a good one, yes,but anyway, I love the name and
code three would have been agood name, but I don't know if I
and, truthfully, your husband'sabsolutely right.
Whoever he is, give him a lotof credit Because I would be
like code three, no, no, there'sno way I'm listening to that
crap.
I already deal with that as atherapist.
(05:52):
I don't want to deal with thaton my podcast.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
Right right Very much so.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
But yeah, look, I do my research and I have no team,
so it's me Did my research and Ihave no team, so it's me Then
my research.
Listen to your podcast, reallysubscribe for the record.
You, if you've ever listened tomy podcast, I never say
something.
I don't mean.
She is now in the like andsubscribe button on my podcast
list, so that's.
And then there's not like if Idon't say something.
(06:21):
Like.
Hopefully you don't know mewell, cindy, but I always say
the truth.
I don't like to lie to myaudience because I think that's
the shittiest thing you couldever do, but anyway, I feel like
I've known you, but I don'tthink my audience knows you yet.
So how about you introduceyourself?
Speaker 3 (06:36):
Sure, I am Cindy Doyle.
I am a licensed professionalcounselor in the DFW area.
I have a group practice.
I have been practicing for over20 years and I specialize in
working with law enforcement.
Actually, all first respondersin my office, as well as first
(06:58):
responder couples focusing on Ialways say I focus on mental and
emotional health.
I'm sorry I said that wrongMental and relational health.
I forget the relational partand that's the most important
part.
So emotional and relationalhealth to keep couples connected
and resilient.
But also it's really about ourfirst responders remaining
(07:20):
connected and resilient becausethere's so much research there
that shows that relationshipsare a safety issue.
So I kind of focus on thatangle.
I'm also, as you know, now a lawenforcement spouse.
He is retired after 21 plusyears.
I didn't make it to 22.
I pushed him to try to do thatand he's like I don't get any
(07:40):
more money for doing that.
So I was like all right, peaceout, let's go.
So he retired and has beenretired for almost four years
now.
He's the reason why I jumpedinto doing what I do.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
Because I married him and we could talk about that if
you want but married him anddid not.
Neither one of us realized whatwe were going to be going
through or how we would beimpacted by what he did or what
he saw on a regular basis, andour relationship struggled.
And it was only in me kind ofdigging in and finding out what
(08:18):
was underneath this that Istarted changing my relationship
, that I started changing myrelationship and as I did that,
I thought maybe I need to domore than just keep this with me
or the people coming into myoffice, and so I started a
podcast, because you know,that's what everybody does is
(08:38):
just starts a podcast for somerandom reason, right?
So in 2017, I started thepodcast and I have been really
intermittent.
I've tried to be much moreconsistent yes, consistent with
it over the past three years,for sure.
And then in 2020, because therewas nothing else to do ha ha,
(08:59):
ha ha I decided to write a bookand so I wrote the book Hold the
Line how to Protect your theEssential Guide to Protecting
your Law EnforcementRelationship.
So that's a little about me andI do a lot of speaking, and
just came back from Orlandoyesterday from speaking to NOLI,
which is the NationalAssociation of Women in Law
(09:19):
Enforcement and LeadershipExecutives.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Awesome, I thought you were going to say I to
mickey and minnie, but um didn'teven have time.
Flew in, spoke, flew out andthe other part too is when you
said hold the line, I justrealized there's a toto song, uh
, called hold the line yes, Iget that a lot yeah, but now,
now, if I like, I have a specialeffect board now, but I don't
(09:44):
know how to put in a song.
I would love to have to be ableto put that Too late now.
I think there's a lot of stuffthat you said there that was
really really good, because whatyou talked about is all the
adaption.
You adapt See, I'm havingtrouble you adapt to your law
enforcement spouse because ofwhat his life is or she
depending on the individual, butthere's also kind of like give
(10:13):
or take, and so it's really hardto experience that kind of like
change in the relationship,particularly when someone like
retires.
So I don't know where you wantto go start talking about a
little more about therelationship stuff.
I think that because of youknow weird, weird scheduling,
how it works and how there'scompromise and sacrifices on
both sides and all that stuffthat goes on, there's a lot of
grief and change in therelationship that occurs.
(10:34):
I don't know if you want to talka little more about that, but
that's where I would go.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
Yeah, I can just dive into kind of a little bit about
my story and how I recognizedthat it was grief, because it
took me a while to figure thatout and for us to kind of figure
it out.
I think, you know, I'm justgoing to do the traditional girl
thing, in the sense that Ithink girls think, oh, we're
(10:59):
getting married.
People get married becausethey're like oh, I'm going to
have this partner and thispartner is going to be there and
I'm going to be able to sit andhave dinner with somebody and
I'm not going to be alone andI'm going to have this partner
that I'm going to be doingthings with.
And what we quickly realize isthat it's almost like being
(11:22):
married but single, but you'renot really single either, right,
and so we wind up doing allthis stuff alone.
And in my relationship, when myhusband started his career, he
was doing eight-hour shifts.
So that changed over the years.
But eight-hour shifts, thatchanged over the years.
But eight-hour shifts we lookedat there was a time period of
(11:46):
about five years when we wereships passing in the night, and
this was way back when.
And so I would find things tofill my time, and for a while
that was scrapbooking and I tooka picture of him laying in bed
and blew it up into an eight by10.
(12:07):
Because that was in, scrapbookedit because that was our
relationship was me during theday on a Saturday, doing nothing
, trying to keep my dogs quiet.
I'd go run errands and thingslike that, all by myself.
He would get up around I don'tknow two or three.
I'd want to try to have aconversation with him but he was
(12:30):
tired, just waking up, blurryeyed, kind of focusing on what
he needed to do for the day,going in and I'd have him for
like an hour and a half, twohours, but not really, and then
he would go to work.
And so there was like thisfive-year period where we just
really didn't see or talk toeach other, and when we did, it
(12:51):
was sound bites, and so that'swhere I started getting
irritated.
He didn't really understand thatI was getting mad about it
because I wasn't showing it awhole lot.
I didn't want him to know.
I wanted to be the supportivespouse, right?
I wanted to be strong like him.
So I didn't let him know awhole lot, I just sucked it up.
(13:15):
I'm a Southern girl, so we puton our big girl panties and keep
going and just didn't share.
But I started shutting down.
I was getting mad, I was reallyresentful, and that's how our
distance kind of started.
And then along the way, that'swhen I kind of figured out.
(13:37):
I took some time clinician,look in the mirror, right Kind
of a thing and I took some timeto kind of figure out that it
was grief and there was a lot oflayers of it there.
And it wasn't until I startedlooking at that that I was able
to kind of change the narrativeand change the story about our
(13:58):
life and what it was going to belike.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
I find it fascinating that you talked about grief,
because I see your point, butone of the things that I would
say to you is I'm 100% suresomeone in my audience is going
to go how is that grief?
Grief is only when people die,and obviously I do have people
who will get a little more, andI'm not trying to put them down.
(14:23):
But can you explain more as towhy you consider it grief versus
?
Speaker 3 (14:28):
Absolutely yeah.
So when I, when I thought aboutbeing married to this guy that
I love so much, I thought aboutthe life that I would have with
him.
I thought about sitting downwith at the table and having
dinner.
I thought about going to eventstogether and what that would be
like.
I thought about havingvacations.
I thought about all this waythat my life would be right.
(14:54):
Because as we go along, we startdeveloping a narrative, we
start developing a story of whatmarriage is supposed to be like
or your relationship issupposed to be like.
So as you develop this narrativeand your brain has these, even
when we're doing like justimagining what that story is,
our brain is developing theseneural pathways as far as what
(15:15):
they are, and then, when thingsdon't happen, it causes a
conflict happen, it causes aconflict.
And I had to stop and look atwhat I thought it was going to
be and feel sad about not havingthat life that I thought I was
going to have before I couldmove to the life that I did have
(15:39):
.
I hope that makes sense.
So, as a spouse, it can bereally weird, because you show
up at events and people are likeoh, are you really married?
Why can't he get off work andfamily life looks different.
We weren't able to havechildren, but so many other
first responder families havekids and I don't think people
(16:01):
have kids and think, gosh, Ican't wait to be a solo parent
while you're at work, right?
So there's these aspects wherewe imagine what life is going to
be like and when it's not thatway, we develop resentment and
we have to grieve what wethought we were going to have
before we can move into thatacceptance.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
And I think that to me, that makes perfect sense,
because you know there's toomany things.
You said that I reallyresonated.
It's the narrative we create,right, I mean?
And if people don't believe inwhat narratives are you put on
this podcast, expecting acertain thing?
Did it occur or not, I don'tknow, but the narrative is oh
(16:47):
you know, cindy and Steve aregoing to be the most interesting
people I've ever met To.
Oh my God, this is going to beso fucking boring about couples
and is going to blame the firstresponder, cop, whatever Reality
was going to be somewhere inbetween anyway.
But the narrative that we createin our lives about other people
is absolutely where we get theanger, the sadness, the surprise
(17:10):
, the disgust and all those core.
And then we take it out on ourspouses or people we trust and I
put this in quotation marks forthose in YouTube here because,
yeah, we trust them, but wedon't trust them enough to say,
look, I'm feeling sad that wedidn't get the life that I
thought we would have.
So I don't know if I got becauseyou were saying I'm not sure it
(17:33):
makes sense, that's it.
But I want to make sure I kindof like translate it and if I
got it wrong, correct me ifyou're my mom.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
No, that's, that's exactly it, and I can even give
specific examples that probablyeverybody in your audience can
resonate with.
Here's one, the one where youthink you're going to go on
vacation and then, oh, by theway, the schedule gets switched,
people quit and now you have topick up the shifts, and now
(18:00):
vacation is canceled.
Or we thought we were going togo on a date and now we can't
because this other third partyin our relationship tends to
have some influence.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
You know, there's this first responder life, just
for the record.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
Yes, the third party being the first responder life.
It can even be the idea ofhypervigilance coming home,
right?
So hypervigilance coming homeis this downside.
And so first responders at workmany times they're up and alive
.
At home they are down anddisconnected because their brain
has to recover.
(18:36):
My husband and I I would want tohave conversation with him
because I hadn't seen him right.
So I'm the girl that he hitsthe door because I hadn't seen
him Right.
So I'm, I'm the girl that hehits the door and I'm like, oh
my gosh, so how was your day,what are you doing?
And I wanted to have thisconversation about what his day
was like and what I would get.
Initially he was fine with it.
Initially he would talk to meabout what happened and then, as
(19:00):
the career went along as youknow, many times that career
becomes same shit, different dayhe used to say I'm the trash
man is what he would say.
I'm cleaning up everybody'sgarbage and shit.
And so I missed that.
I'm like, well, no couples talkabout these things and we
(19:20):
should have these conversations.
No couples talk about thesethings and we should have these
conversations.
And that downside ofhypervigilance means that he's
tired, and so if we don't knowthat that's the brain and that
there needs to be recovery, thenI can't understand and I can't
grieve the fact of like, hey,this job has an impact.
(19:40):
But as his spouse, if Iunderstand and I can grieve what
I think is supposed to happen,then I can make something else
happen.
I mean, he has grief too.
And the fact of like we wouldtry to plan we had this one
pizza party planned one time andbought all the ingredients.
We had something like 12 peoplecoming over six couples, I
(20:02):
think.
Bought all the ingredients.
We had something like 12 peoplecoming over six couples.
I think I had prepped all thepizza dough.
He had wine pairings set up forall the courses we were going
to do and I think everybody wascoming over at 5.30 and at four
o'clock he got called in and I'mlike, well, there goes that
right.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
And I think that there's so many things you
brought up that made perfectsense to me.
And when you mentioned that,it's like I've worked with
detectives and sometimes, whenyou're in smaller departments
maybe not Dallas-Forth Worthstyle, but smaller departments
there's usually one detectiveand if the call comes in on your
(20:45):
day off, well, we onlydetective.
So, yeah, pizza or not, you, yougotta go to, you gotta go to
your call, and that affects awhole lot of people and there's
a lot of grief and loss withthat.
Yeah, I think that that's oneof the other things too, and
people don't understand that.
Um and this maybe I wish yourhusband was here, but you can
maybe speak of this too.
One of the things that I hearso often from my first responder
(21:06):
world people is that I don'twant to get home and tell you
about the brain Sorry, triggerwarning the brain splatter from
someone who shot themselves inthe head.
I want to tell you about thatbecause that's like triggering
for me.
I don't want to trigger you andthere's spouses that take that
personally.
You think I can't handle it.
Trigger you and and there'sspouses that take that
personally you think I can'thandle it or you think you're
stronger and that it createsthis big resentment that we
(21:29):
talked about earlier.
But I don't know.
You can correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what I found a lot
when my guys yeah I, I agree,and at the beginning he would
share that with me.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
I do, you know, I do trauma in my therapy room so I'm
like I hear all kinds of stuff.
It doesn't really impact me awhole lot, but there's things
that he doesn't want to recountand so there's I didn't know
different stories.
He would tell me some storiesand then there were.
I found out after he retired.
Actually we were doing a podcasttogether about grief and he
(22:05):
started talking about how he,when he went to therapy to work
through some of the incidencesand he starts talking about this
incident and I looked at himand I said you never told me
about this.
He said I didn't want you toknow everything.
I didn't want you to have tothink about and see everything
that I saw.
I wanted to protect you and Ididn't want to have to think
(22:27):
about it myself.
So there are stories that heshares and then there's just
gaps where I may not know, andthat's also grief, that he has a
part of his world that I'lljust never know, and he does
that to protect me.
But at the same time, as arelationship, it's kind of sad
(22:50):
like we can't share everythingor we don't choose to share
everything you know.
As a clinician, I definitelydon't share everything that I
hear as well, and working withfirst responders, I've heard
some pretty gruesome stuff, butI'm not going to come home and
tell him that, so it kind ofgoes both ways.
But yeah, just because of ourprofessions, how do you deal
(23:10):
with the resentment?
Well, goal so because that'swhat it leads to, right, I mean
right, right I'm wrong, butthat's what it leads to no,
that's and that's where I got,and that's, uh, the catalyst for
me deciding in my relationshipthat I needed to figure out what
was going on and what was whatwas happening here.
(23:30):
Because, uh, year 12 which seemsto be a challenge for a lot of
first responder relationships,by the way, interesting Year 12,
year 13, I was having tempertantrums by myself.
I was doing a lot of likeflipping them off behind his
back kind of a thing.
I was really mad, I wasresentful it seemed like the
department always came first,that kind of thing and I was
(23:54):
irritated, I think, because Ididn't have a quote, unquote,
normal life like my friends did,and so I blamed him a little
bit as opposed to takingownership and looking at my
expectations.
So it was only when I decidedthat I didn't want to leave the
(24:16):
relationship but I couldn't keepliving the way I was living in
the relationship and holding onto that anger.
So it took me looking at myselfand actually, I think, sitting
in the therapy room one day andtelling another couple sometimes
you have to stand in the otherperson's shoes because maybe
(24:38):
there's something you don't getor understand and I said that
and I thought hello, cindy,dumbass, why aren't you doing
that, you idiot?
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Right.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
So that's when I thought maybe there's something
I don't get or understand.
And I remember writing out myanger and looking at why am I so
stuck on wanting a life thisway when I can have so much
gratitude for the life that I dohave?
And so moving that to grievingall these experiences that I
(25:14):
thought we would have.
Grieving holidays togetherthat's a big one for our field
of all the holidays likeChristmases and oh, I'm getting
emotional Christmas andunwrapping gifts and what that
would be like and our familiesgetting together and this idea
and this image.
And when I could let that go, Ilet the resentment go and then
(25:38):
I could have gratitude for allthe other aspects of our life
and really shift that around.
Because I think in grief youhave to let go and you can't say
why me or I wish right, and soin bargaining with that or it's
(26:00):
kind of learning to let that goand then moving to something
else, integrating it we can gointo resilience conversation if
you want, but it's that kind ofa thing and moving it around.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
You know, cindy, I know we.
I want to continue ourconversation.
We need to get back together atsome point.
You got to come back on becausethere's this is a great
conversation, because you talkabout getting emotional.
First of all, that's what Iwant from anyone who's on here,
because I want real talk.
I don't have, I'm a, I'm aHoward Stern guy.
Let's not fake.
Let's not fake thisconversation.
(26:33):
Let's be real.
Right, I'm going to also startnicknaming you DA, because you
said you were a dumbass, so Ican nickname you DA.
All joking aside, I'm going tolet you in on a secret about
therapists.
This is for the audience, notfor you.
What she just said happens tome at least every week.
(26:56):
Every other week I'm sayingadvice to someone.
I'm going, fuck, I shouldreally follow that.
Huh.
So if you, if if you're atherapist and you don't admit to
that, I'm sorry.
I admit to it freely.
I give my advice 95% of it.
Either I've followed it or Iwant to follow it.
So, yeah, just, we broke a wallhere.
So if you didn't want, justspeed up 30 seconds and you
(27:17):
won't have to.
But I mean, I love that becauseI have those moments and any
therapist worth their while,will admit to that.
And finally, you talked aboutgratitude.
One of the things that I I'velearned in life is that again my
audience knows I like to repeatthis my best friend died when I
was 12 in a fire, so for me,I'm not always grateful, but
(27:42):
I've learned that when I getupset or get into those quote
negative emotions, I go intogratitude because gratitude will
get me to where I need to be,and so I think that, when you
talked about gratitude, it'sgreat advice to give to couples,
in my opinion, because youfinding someone in this crazy
world is already a fuckingdifficult thing, and now you
(28:04):
found them.
So, yeah, there's going to besome fights.
It's not going to be allbutterflies and unicorns.
It's going to be some difficultmoments, and so that would be
great advice to talk aboutgratitude, difficult moments,
and so that would be greatadvice to talk about gratitude.
But do you have otherrecommendations for couples
other than gratitude whenthey're talking about their
couples and stuff like?
Speaker 3 (28:23):
that I go back to the first one of like standing in
Taylor's shoes.
What is it that we don'tunderstand?
And I have a little bit of astory about that actually around
the holidays, which is why itmakes me emotional.
I live in Dallas, fort Wortharea, north.
I actually live north of Dallasand Fort Worth and outside of
Denton, texas, and my parentslive in Austin, which is about
(28:46):
three and a half hours away fromme.
That's where I grew up and everyholiday, every Christmas, my
husband always had to work.
His higher up always took offand so it left him in charge so
and he had to be on call.
He was on call the last sevenyears, 24, seven.
He was on call the last sevenyears of his career and so it
(29:07):
was.
It made it really hard to goout of town or do anything
because he had to make sure he,his call, was covered.
So many times he would say he'slike no, go do whatever you
want to do, go visit yourparents, whatever.
So at Christmas time many timesI would just go down to Austin
because otherwise I'd be here bymyself.
I would always think about thisis bullshit, that every single
(29:29):
holiday I don't get him.
I was kind of thinking about melike I'm alone, I don't get him
right.
I was kind of thinking about melike I'm alone, I don't have
anybody to spend the holidayswith.
I would think about me a lotand how I was being impacted.
And I came home from Christmas,probably a Christmas afternoon,
walked in the house and he wassitting on the couch and he says
(29:53):
to me please don't ever go awayat Christmas again.
And I was like, okay, why?
A little annoyed, by the way.
And he said because everyChristmas Eve I sit in my patrol
car and I watch all the lightscome on and I think about how
(30:15):
people are getting together andgetting around a table and
eating with their families andlaughing and opening presents
and I feel so alone in thatmoment.
And then I come home and thehouse is dark and you aren't
(30:36):
here and it just emphasizesagain how I'm alone and I
thought, wow, I'm a real assholebecause I never thought about
that and what it might be likefor him to come home alone on
such a meaningful holiday.
(30:56):
He grew up in a big family andhis holidays were full of his
sisters and noisiness when theyget together.
They are a noisy Irish, italianfamily, if that explains any of
that, and so to come home, it'dbe dark, or even in the morning
, right, and just nobody's there.
(31:17):
It just emphasizes that andthat's when I started to realize
that.
So I would say perspectivetaking is one of the biggest
things that we can do isunderstand where, try to
understand where the otherperson may be, even though they
might not be verbalizing it maybe even though they might not be
(31:42):
verbalizing it.
A lot of times we are reactingto our story or what we
interpret is going on, insteadof thinking about what our
partner is doing.
That can help with resentmentas well, that you're doing this
together.
You're not just doing it byyourself.
Hopefully, hopefully, you'reboth going through this together
in a different way.
So perspective taking is a bigone, I think.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
the other really difficult Can I just stop you
for a second?
Because, I want another idea.
You mentioned Austin, and oneof my favorite authors is Brene
Brown.
I love Brene, she's my-.
Speaker 3 (32:15):
Did you know I'm certified in her work?
Oh, I didn't know that.
Brene Brown oh yeah, I love.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
Brene, did you know I'm certified in her work?
Oh, I didn't know that, brene,the dare to lead part or
everything else.
Speaker 3 (32:22):
The daring way and the rising strong part, yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
Well, I joke around and I'm going to lighten up the
mood a little bit and bring itback up again.
Yeah, I joke around with mygirlfriend.
She's my pass and she's likeyou.
I joke around with mygirlfriend, she's my pass and
she's like you know, most peoplewill choose like a hot,
attractive actress.
You got Brene Brown as yourpass.
I'm like, yep, that's my passbecause I love Brene so much and
her husband's name is Steve, sothere's no transition
(32:49):
whatsoever.
It's the same name.
There you go, but I talked aboutthe narrative and I thought
that was a great point.
The narrative that he had wasyou abandoned me on Christmas
Eve and Christmas day, and yournarrative is fuck him, I'm not
fucking around my holidaybecause he's working.
And when you think about thestories we tell ourselves and
(33:12):
that's my shout out to BreneBrown that's exactly where the
issue occurs is that we tellourselves a story about
something and yet we never, likeyou say, put yourself in
someone else's shoes, and theempathy Sorry to put in a little
therapy here, but sitting inthat empathy and that is just
amazingly.
That's the best advice I heard,because I think that that's what
(33:34):
I tell people when I get reallyangry.
I tell myself, okay, what's thestory I'm telling myself about
this and it so helps me to bringme back.
I'm not a hundred percent goodat it and there's no claim that
I am.
However, learning to get thatnarrative and thinking about the
other person's narrative is soimportant, so I apologize for
interrupting.
I know you were going to givesome advice, but I thought that
(33:56):
was important for me to name notonly Renee Brown, who, if she
ever listens to this, shout out,but love her, absolutely love
her, and the narrative and thestories we tell ourselves is
usually our biggest downfall ina couple and in relationships in
general.
Speaker 3 (34:15):
Yeah, I agree, and it's so important to look at
that because then when you getout of your own story, it can
help with that grief that you'refeeling, because it's like, oh,
this can be a shared situationas opposed, and that really
helped us.
That helped the two of us to say, like man, there are aspects of
(34:36):
this life that we chosetogether to be in this first
responder world and the factthat we're going through this
together and we can do this andresent it, or we can do it and
feel like, hey, we have someshared, similar experiences and
that really helped us to let go,to move through the grief of
(34:57):
the things that we have thegrief and he'll talk about it in
the sense that he didn't get tospend time with me in the way
he wanted to spend time with me,and that's one of his griefs.
It's only now in retirement,when now he has this medical
stuff that happens because ofhis career and so he's not as
(35:19):
healthy as he would have likedto have been.
So we still go through thoselittle griefs along the way.
Yeah, so changing the story isa big part of it.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
Yeah, you let go of a story you told yourself.
You will open yourself toopportunities to listen to other
people and hear their story andnot personalize it.
But again that's a little bitof again CBT.
So I do apologize for moretherapy here.
(35:50):
We'll keep on trudging aheadand the advice I give to some
couples is don't hear someone.
Listen to them, becauseSometimes it's a lot more
important, especially in firstresponder world.
We tend to hear but we don'tlisten.
And that's the advice I give tosome of the spouses as well as
the first responders.
I'm like he or she is tellingyou something.
Don't just hear, just listenand pay attention to what that
(36:15):
does.
Don't go with your gut reactionwhen they say you abandoned me
because that's a harsh sentence.
Let them finish the thought ofwhat that means and listen to
that conversation.
So that's the other advice Ihave.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
I don't know if you have other advice, but I'm just
going to tag onto that one alittle bit, because I think many
times we hear people's feelingsand we take it personal right,
and so I think also firstresponders, that fight or flight
aspect, it's automatic defensemechanism to like protect
themselves because of the fightor flight.
But I had somebody one time sayoh, I don't have to try it on
(36:54):
for size, I just have to examineit and I'm like, oh yeah, so I
don't know if that makes sense,like I just have to look at that
.
I don't have to like try it onand see if it fits and where it
pinches, and I don't like theway this fits.
Right, you don't have to try iton, you just have to look at
the shirt and just go like, oh,I see that design on that.
(37:18):
Hmm, that's interesting.
So that's one of my aspects ofit.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
Weird, I know.
I look at crop tops and I don'treally have to put them on to
say that ain't for me.
Speaker 3 (37:27):
Right.
I think the other advice Iguess I would have for couples
too, is it just kind of alongthe same lines of that gratitude
aspect that I would say it'slike many times we have
resentment for different aspectsof what comes home.
I can flat out admit that Ididn't grow up with guns, but my
(37:50):
husband carries one on aregular basis and so I would
think like, oh, this is soridiculous, you have to wear
something with a belt becauseyou've got to have a gun.
This is so stupid and like thatkind of feeling would get in
the way.
And I don't know that I havenecessarily grief around that,
(38:12):
but I did have the resentmentaround it.
And so what?
I funny story we were inBaltimore visiting and I'm
always like, do you have tocarry?
And we're in Baltimore in theback of a cab and I looked at
him and I said I kind of wishyou were carrying right now and
(38:32):
he started laughing because Ialways give him a hard time,
right.
And so there's these aspectswhere he will, because of who he
is, he may say, do things tomake me feel safer, or hey, you
know what, you need to be payingattention, and I'll hear it as
(38:53):
criticism, as opposed to saying,oh well, he's caring about me
and doesn't want bad things tohappen.
Right now, even like with thecaring aspect, I look at it and
I say he wants me to be safe, hewants me to.
You know, he wants to be ableto protect me.
What would it be like if hewasn't able to protect me and we
(39:14):
were out in public?
He would live with guilt therest of his life.
So a lot of that is kind ofspinning it around and having
those conversations in that way.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
Yeah, that's why Austin is all the liberals and
the rest of the Texas isdifferent.
But anyway, that's just mylittle joke about.
Speaker 3 (39:31):
Texas.
That's why we don't live inAustin, maybe.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
Well, I want to wrap it up here, but I definitely
want to hear more from you.
This is not an empty offer.
Please come back if you want.
I would love to have you backon.
Speaker 3 (39:48):
Oh, I'd love to.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
Because this is a great conversation.
I feel like I'm cutting ouraudience short to a great
conversation here, but how aboutyou tell me more, maybe about
either your podcast, your bookor both or whatever, and where
people can get that?
Speaker 3 (40:01):
Sure, everything pretty much is code for couples.
So you can find me on socialfor at code for couples.
If you want that, I'll give youmy LinkedIn stuff.
It's a little bit morecomplicated.
My podcast is literally codefor number four couples Um.
And my website is the samething code for couplescom Um.
(40:21):
My book is hold the line, theessential guide to protecting
your law enforcementrelationship, and you can find
it on any online retailer.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
Well, I'm going to be getting that book.
Um, I may send it to you andget it signed.
Um, the other joke I wanted tomake is when you said cold in
the number four, I was like, allright, charlie, oscar, delta,
echo.
And then I'm lost.
So I'm like, yeah, screw it,I'm not doing it.
Um, I'm not, I'm not.
I've never pretended to be afirst responder, I'm just a
mental health guy.
But truthfully, from the bottomof my heart, can't wait to have
(40:53):
you back on.
Cindy, please go listen to herpodcast.
I, I am a subscriber.
This is absolutely true.
I wish I could share that, butI definitely subscribe and I've
listened to a few of theepisodes and I want to thank you
for your time, cindy.
Speaker 3 (41:07):
Thanks for having me.
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
Well, that concludes episode 206.
Again, cindy Doyle, thank youso much, and hopefully you join
us for episode 207 withElizabeth Eklund, and I hope to
see you then.
Speaker 1 (41:21):
Please like, subscribe and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful and, as a reminder, this
podcast is for informational,educational and entertainment
purposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(41:45):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
You, you, you, you, you, you,thank you.
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