June 4, 2025 • 45 mins
What happens when the strongest among us need support? In this powerful conversation, Elizabeth Ecklund takes us on an extraordinary journey from fighting fires in Antarctica to fighting stigma in mental health. As someone with 15 years of experience spanning firefighting, emergency medical services, and nursing, Elizabeth brings a rare perspective to the critical conversation about first responder mental health.
The stigma surrounding mental health in emergency services creates a dangerous paradox: those who routinely face trauma are often the least likely to seek help. Elizabeth articulates this challenge with striking clarity, drawing from her own experiences to illuminate why cultural competency matters so deeply when providing therapy to first responders. "They don't know how to deal with their grief," she explains, highlighting how traditional coping mechanisms within emergency services—dark humor, emotional detachment, peer discussions—often fall short of addressing cumulative trauma.
Her adventures at the South Pole provide not just fascinating stories—from living with three twenty-somethings in cramped quarters to experiencing oxygen saturation levels of 82% at 12,000 feet elevation—but metaphors for resilience in extreme conditions. Like the South Pole's challenging environment, the mental landscape of emergency work requires specialized knowledge and adaptation strategies that standard approaches may miss.
Through MindForge Therapy Group, Elizabeth has created a sanctuary where first responders can speak freely without fear of judgment or misunderstanding. Her approach acknowledges the unique needs of this population, incorporating humor and practical interventions that "don't feel like therapy." Most importantly, she recognizes that addressing these mental health needs impacts not just individual well-being but team safety, family relationships, and ultimately, the communities these heroes serve.
Whether you're a first responder seeking understanding, a mental health professional wanting to better serve this population, or simply someone fascinated by human resilience in extraordinary circumstances, this conversation offers valuable insights into bridging the gap between emergency services and effective mental health support. Listen now to discover how one woman's remarkable journey from firefighting to therapy is helping heroes heal.
To contact Elizabeth, go to www.mindforgetherapy.com
Freed.ai: We’ll Do Your SOAP Notes!Freed AI converts conversations into SOAP note.Use code Steve50 for $50 off the 1st month!
Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action, where
strength meets strategy andcourage to help you move forward
.
Each week, your host, steveBisson, a therapist with over
two decades of experience in thefirst responder community,
brings you powerfulconversations about resilience,
growth and healing throughtrauma and grief.
Whether you're navigating thecomplex journey of grief,
(00:22):
processing trauma or seeking tobuild resilience in high-stress
environments, this podcast isyour trusted companion.
From first responders facingdaily challenges to emergency
personnel managing criticalsituations, to leaders carrying
the weight of difficultdecisions, we're here to support
your journey.
Through authentic interviews,expert discussions and
(00:43):
real-world experiences, we divedeep into the heart of human
resilience.
We explore crucial topics liketrauma recovery, grief
processing, stress managementand emotional well-being.
Our conversations bridge thegap between professional insight
and practical application,offering you tools and
strategies that work in the realworld.
(01:03):
Join us as we create a spacewhere healing is possible, where
grief finds understanding andwhere resilience becomes your
foundation for growth.
This is Resilience Developmentin Action with Steve Bisson.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
So which of the intros do you guys like best?
The shorter one?
The longer one?
Let me know in the comments.
Go to send me a text in thenotes.
But welcome to episode 207.
If you haven't listened toepisode 206, cindy Doyle was on
Code for Couples and Code forCouples.
If you get the drift of thatand if you don't listen to the
episode, you'll get it.
But she was a great interview.
(01:39):
But for episode 207, we'regoing to meet with Elizabeth
Eklund.
Elizabeth is another person Imet through Facebook.
She has a background infirefighter, emt and nurse.
She has a lot of experience onthe table, as well as working as
an airport rescue firefighterin Antarctica.
Can't wait to talk about that.
I'll be perfectly honest withyou.
She has 15 years of combinedservice in the emergency
(02:02):
services and she's trying toreduce the stigma regarding
therapy and is committed toaddressing issues such as
depression, anxiety, burnout andPTSD for the professionals who
serve.
I'm excited and I hope youenjoy the interview.
And here it is GetFreeai.
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(02:46):
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(03:08):
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Well, hi everyone and welcome toepisode 207.
I have an amazing guest and Imet her again through Facebook
and through a group, and what Ifound fascinating is I've never
(04:35):
had someone who is stationed inAntarctica.
I got it wrong and she's fromAlaska, so she's like, hit every
kind of like Antarctica,antarctica and everything else
you can think of Arctic.
I know I'm just kidding, butanyway, elizabeth Eklund,
welcome to.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Resilience Development in Action.
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
You know, one of the things that's fun is that people
always laugh.
But I love having someone whohasn't been on too many podcasts
, because this is just aconversation and I kind of like
remind everyone that if you'relistening to Resilience
Development in Action, you'reprobably a first responder,
you're probably a therapist whoworks with first responders or
you like people shooting theshit, and that's exactly what I
(05:17):
wanted always to be able to do,because some people who have
done too many podcasts becometoo structured.
So don't worry about it, justbe yourself and just begin being
yourself.
If you could, I read your bio.
Obviously, we talked a littlebit through you Facebook, what's
it called?
Messenger, and so I get to knowyou a little bit.
But how about you introduceyourself to the audience?
Speaker 3 (05:39):
Okay, my name is Elizabeth Eklund.
I have a lot of letters behindmy name.
This goes a little somethinglike this MSW, bsn, lswaic and
RN.
I'm also an IFSAC 2 firefighter, hazmat operator and EMT
retired, and I'm also the ownerof MindForge Therapy Group,
(06:04):
where I am not only a firstresponder and a nurse myself,
but I also serve firstresponders, frontline workers,
that kind of wonderful thing,because that's also what I work
in.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Well, we need more of you.
I like having people like Ithink a few episodes before you
had someone who used to be apolice officer who is now
getting his master's inpsychology, and while I'm more
than happy to say I have someexperience, I don't know what it
is to be firsthand right therewith those situations.
So more and more of you areneeded.
(06:40):
So thank you for joining ourside of the dark side of the
treatment facility.
Well, we're not quite theinsurance companies just yet,
but we're on the dark side.
You know, I, when people I putthis out to a group online and
say, hey, who wants to come onmy podcast?
And you answered fairly quicklyand I always wonder what, why
(07:01):
people want to come on to mypodcast.
I mean, I'm just one guy, soI'd like to hear why you decided
like, oh yeah, I want to go onthis podcast.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Absolutely.
I think what's important is themessage that we're trying to
get out to first respondergroups.
A lot of these groups are notnecessarily going to get help
for mental health issues becauseof the stigma surrounding
(07:29):
mental health, and, of course,we are all strong and resilient
in what we do, and so a lot oftimes we feel like when we reach
out for help, there's going tobe a stigma there, we are going
to feel less strong, we're goingto feel vulnerable, which, of
course, we don't want to feel.
(07:50):
And so I think, by coming onpodcasts, talking out in the
community, reaching out todifferent groups, however that
may be, is very important,because otherwise we're missing
an opportunity to connect withpeople and offer up the help
(08:10):
that they may be needing.
And, of course, as everybodyknows, access to mental health
is very hard to get.
But it seems like there's morebarriers, even with our groups,
because we put the barriersthere ourselves and there's
obviously.
Then there's other barriersthat we have with, you know,
(08:31):
insurance or, just again,finding a therapist who
understands.
And I've had it where I've hadclients come to me and say, you
know, I went to a therapist andI immediately couldn't work with
them because I would explain tothem this traumatic incident
that occurred or happened andthe clinician would start crying
.
So that's where you know yourun into some issues too.
(08:55):
They have a bad experience intherapy.
So, anyway, I have been lookingfor ways to sort of connect
with the community and I thoughtthis would be a great way to
reach out, and not just becauseobviously I'm in Washington
state and I think you are on theEast Coast, so this is kind of
a national way to reach out,which is great.
(09:16):
I enjoy, you know, however, Ican getting out and having a
conversation about mental health.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Well, you know the other part too, that I really
appreciate you talking about twoimportant things the stigma,
and you know one of the thingsthat I hear a lot of stuff on
this coast, particularly theNortheast, you know.
Yeah, well, there's a stigmahere in the Northeast because
we're tough people.
I'm like, eh, pretty sure it'sacross the country, actually
(09:44):
North America in general.
So you bring that up, it makesperfect sense and you're
absolutely right.
I mean, one of the things wetalk about constantly on this
podcast is cultural competency.
If a therapist can't handle it,then you need to be perfectly
blunt that you can't handle it.
I can't handle certain things asa therapist.
If you send me and I'm tryingto I can't work with people who
(10:11):
are elderly because I want totake them home and take care of
them, and that's not healthy,right, that's not right.
So I don't work with theelderly because I would not
challenge them.
I have zero qualms aboutchallenging particularly first
responders, my military folksand all that, but for older
people I just want to take themhome and like, oh, they're so
sweet.
I talk to my therapist about mycountertransference issues.
Don't worry about that.
(10:32):
But the point is is that I thinkthat there's definitely things
that you can't do.
Well, and I think that it's agreat message you just said some
therapists have just have tosay I can't do it.
And I'm sure you have otherstories like that, if people
like started to cry.
Or I've had people tell me,like I told my therapist about a
story.
There's a firefighter and we'llsay it was a medical, pretty
(10:54):
significant medical, but a veryyoung human and they they need
to take a breath and have to getup, and the firefighter,
paramedic, are like what thefuck is this?
So I think it's important totalk about cultural competency
every single time we can.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
Absolutely Right, I agree.
I think that being culturallycompetent means that you are
able to work with the populationthat you are supporting, and I
think that's important why a lotof therapists are moving to
this niche of working with firstresponders because we have the
(11:32):
cultural competence to work withthis group, and that's coming
from being you know, like youmentioned the last guest being a
police officer.
Having been a firefighter,you're coming in with an
awareness that a lot of othertherapists aren't going to have,
and so it helps greatly alsowith the therapeutic
relationship, which we all knowis extremely important for even
(11:57):
facilitating the therapeuticprocess.
So there's that there.
There's that.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
No, but I think it's.
It's also being able tono-transcript.
Therapists have to be able tohandle it.
And I tell people, if you wantto know if you can handle first
responders, if you're in thecontinuous states, even Alaska,
even Hawaii go on a ride along,Go at a firehouse, Sit around
(12:24):
the table, Even if it's at shiftchange.
Up here usually they are on 24,so shift change usually is in
the morning.
Go sit and learn, See how itgoes.
And I think that that'simportant to do because until
you, you know, I've been oncalls, I know what a call is.
But if someone says, oh, I wason a call once, someone gave you
a phone call, you're like, ohmy God, I'm already behind the
(12:46):
eight ball with this therapist.
Knowing those terms, knowingthose things is so essential.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
Right, I agree, and I think it would give them some
insight.
But I also think that a lot ofthe insight comes from, you know
, the frequent exposure totrauma, right, first responders
regularly encountering traumaticsituations, and that's a
cumulative grief that occursfrom experiencing it over and
(13:14):
over and over again.
So going on a ride along, great, to get in there and, you know,
meet the first responders andmaybe to see firsthand a little
bit of what's going on.
But also it's just one of thosethings that I don't think the
understanding will be that deepunless you have spent time in
the field for many years.
(13:35):
Spent time in the field formany years.
Then you understand, likeemotional detachment and how the
public expectations affect you,right, and that we're supposed
to be heroes and we have tomaintain composure and we're not
supposed to be human and we'renot supposed to have emotional,
visible responses to what'shappening.
(13:56):
And so this is, of course, whatalso leads to all the burnout
and you know the impact on ourteam dynamics and also,
obviously, again going back tostigma it creates.
You know, stigma surroundingvulnerability and the fact that
we're not supposed to bevulnerable, we're supposed to
appear strong and resilient, andthat kind of thing in the face
(14:20):
of the public.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
And you forgot another important part the high
levels of suicide in the firstresponder world, which to me is
one of the biggest plagues noone is talking about.
You know, that's part of what Italk about, because who has the
access to the most lethal means?
Speaker 3 (14:42):
Right.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Right, and I think that that's something that's not
talked about, because, okay,don't go talk to someone because
you're weak.
Now you don't talk to someonefor a while, you can't handle
your own stuff anymore, notbecause you're bad, but because
you never reached out, and thenthe best answer is to off
yourself.
And if this is too graphic forpeople, I apologize, but I just
want to be real about things.
That's why you need to liftthat stigma.
(15:05):
That checkup from the neck upis as important as the checkup
from the whole body 100%.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
And I think what you're also bringing up is
coping mechanisms.
First responders generallydon't have very healthy coping
mechanisms.
Nurses are known also forhaving a lot of substance abuse.
There's been a lot of issueswith that, like taking
medications from patients,things like that and a lot of it
comes down to they don't knowhow to deal with their grief.
They don't know how to dealwith, you know, the
post-traumatic stress disorderthat's sort of inherent in our
(15:39):
industry.
They just don't know how todeal with that.
And also, you know, a lot oftimes they turn to peers, and
peers can be great but itdoesn't generally provide the
support that they need, thatthey would get with a therapist.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Right when I hear about turning to peers.
Peer support groups areabsolutely important and I
certainly run a couple of thoseand I know people have in
different departments a hundredpercent important.
However, I don't do therapyduring my supervision with other
therapists.
I actually have a therapist whodoes therapy with me and I do
my supervision with peers orhave those conversations.
(16:15):
That's how I use the example ofyeah, it's a way different,
yeah, you can talk to your peerand again, nothing wrong.
And if the peers are, are, are,that's that's enough for you,
that's that's great.
I'm okay with that.
Sometimes it's not.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
Right, exactly.
And again, I think this is whyyou know we are trying to train
first responders, health careproviders, things like that, on
recognizing the signs of likePTSD and burnout.
And then also there's a realbig push for implementing CISD
sessions, especially after, youknow, traumatic incidents occur
(16:50):
on scene.
But that's also not alwayspossible.
But that's also not alwayspossible.
I mean, the last time I wasworking, I remember and again,
this isn't including Antarctica,which was very recent, I'm
talking about working in, youknow, oak Grove EMS back in
Kentucky, and that's whereyou're just running, running,
running all day.
And so you have criticalincident after critical incident
(17:12):
and there's not always a lot oftime for a CISD to occur.
And I recall times where I hada great supervisor back there
and he would call me up and belike are you okay?
You know, is everything okay?
That would be our form of CISDand, you know, be mid run to
somewhere else.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
So well, yeah, and I think we, you know, sisms and
SCISDs are some very similarnames, very similar process.
But you know, like also gettinga bunch of first responders
together to discuss an eventsometimes takes 48 to 72 hours.
By then you shoved it in thevault, you shoved it somewhere,
(17:54):
or you're a mess and youcontinue being a mess and
there's no attack here, that'sjust what it is Right.
And then there's the stigma ofbeing in a group of six, seven
people in the room going.
Yeah, I can't talk about that.
So again, do I point out theshortcomings of peer support
CISM, CISDs?
There's shortcomings of peersupport cism, cisds your
(18:15):
shortcomings.
A therapist, I've mentionedthat too to me.
I think it being informed ofyour options is important, but
knowing what are the limits ofthose options is also as
important.
But more importantly right now,I want to know how you do
firefighter emt work on a polarbear.
Uh well there.
(18:36):
That was my way.
That was my way to present thatlike I want to hear about
antarctica yeah, so antarcticadoes not have bears, despite
what a lot of us, that's thearctic.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
Oh gee right yeah, so there's no bears in antarctica?
Um, there are lots and lots ofseals and, you know, during a
part of the year we get the orcaand the whales and penguins.
Um, so for me, I signed up togo during the summer.
So, uh, summer season forAntarctica is opposite because
(19:08):
of where we are in the globe.
So I left last fall.
Um, I ended up working rightabout four months and I started
out where I did my first monthand a half in McMurdo Station,
which is on Ross Island inAntarctica, and out there the
firefighters are supportingMcMurdo Station, which, at the
(19:30):
height of the summer, has about1200 residents, and it's not, in
my opinion, not too bad.
Again, I did grow up in Alaska.
That's why I was joking withyou about, like, did you mean
Alaska or Antarctica?
So it was in summer.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
This was pre-interview.
I didn't make any mistakes yeton the podcast.
Don't sell me out.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
Oh okay, sorry, Sorry , but yeah.
So it's interesting thatMcMurdo to me reminded me a lot
of Alaska.
It has a very dry cold, it'svery mountainous, it's beautiful
, you know, if you like snow andyou like mountains.
It has a little bit of a town,so there's bars and there's
(20:07):
coffee shops and it's kind ofwhat you would expect in a town.
As far as the fire department,the fire department rotates
about eight firefighters or soto the airfield at every time.
We're responsible for townthere as well as airport rescue
firefighting, so we would spenda lot of time out on the
different airfields.
(20:27):
Most exciting thing happenedwhile I was there was we had a
couple treadmill fires.
We had a couple treadmill firesand I had one patient who was
medevaced and the medical teamhad difficulty getting vein
access.
They had already done some veinaccess and they were running
out of areas to stick.
So they came to me on theairfield and said, hey, could
(20:48):
you put an IV in this guy beforeyou put him on a flight?
And so I did.
So that was the excitement ofthat area.
But of course, if something likea plane were to crash or any of
those issues, then of course wewould be ready to respond.
So thankfully nothing like thatsuper traumatic happened while
(21:09):
I was out there, but all in all,very, very good, fun experience
.
I do recommend for people ifthey're interested in you know
the extreme contract work theycan find something through
Amentum if they're interested inlike firefighting work or for
the nursing side.
Utmb University of TexasMedical Branch is who contracts
(21:30):
out for that.
So I kind of had options goingover there and in fact there is
a therapist who is out there butit's yeah, it's a first
responder company out ofColorado and I want to say it's
called Nicoletti Flattery andAssociates.
I might be messing that up, soif I am, I apologize, but they
(21:51):
have the contract with theNational Science Foundation, so
they have a therapist that's outthere during parts of the year,
and so I was able to connectwith them and have conversations
.
So that was really interesting.
But halfway through my timethere they actually asked me if
I would go out to South Pole.
And so South Pole is a biggerdeal, because you're at 12,000
(22:15):
feet elevation.
It's only about 150 peopleduring the summer and it's only
solely for ARF, it's only to beout in the airfield.
They have a fire brigade that istrained for the fire station,
which they train them early onin the year, and then the fire
brigade stays in the buildingduring the winter, which is, you
(22:37):
know, like a nine monthrotation, and so basically, as
the firefighters out there, wewould train the brigade to then
take over, because there's nofirefighters there during the
winter, because there's noflights, there's no planes going
in and out of South Pole.
So that was an interestingexperience because I said yes
before I really understood whatI was saying yes to, and I
(22:59):
didn't realize that I was goingto be needing to take medication
to deal with the elevation.
And then, once I got out there,the fun was looking at my heart
rate.
Of course, because I'm a nurse,you know I brought my pole
socks and my own gear and stuff.
So my, my pole socks every daywas like 82% O2 on room air and
I'm like this is reallyinteresting yeah.
(23:21):
Yeah.
So that kind of throws you off.
And, of course, after about twoweeks it was up to about 92%
and, um, I could feel a lotbetter, clearly on 92%.
But you know, what'sinteresting is, after spending
time at South Pole, I went backto McMurdo on my way home and
(23:43):
the very weekend that I cameback to McMurdo I decided to run
a 10k, because I understand nowwhy athletes train in high
altitude, because once I cameback I felt like superwomanwoman
and I was like I'm just readyto like do all these things.
I hadn't been running, you knowat all, for two months in South
Pole and I get back and I waslike 10k, it's, that's fine,
(24:04):
it's six miles, that's easythat's not the thought of
everyone, by the way oh, it'sfirefighter mentality, I can do
it no, I did say that it wasn'sfirefighter mentality.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
I can do it.
No, I did say that it wasn'tfirefighter mentality, yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
So anyway, it was a great experience.
I learned a lot.
I really love National ScienceFoundation.
I love the work they're doing.
Parts of me wish one day, maybeas a young child, that I had
thought about becoming anastronaut, because I think I
would have loved that line ofwork.
My husband says I'm already aspace cadet.
(24:40):
So you know there's that I'mworking out okay with that, but
you know there's worse things tobe called anyway, right.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
So again, maybe my curiosity yeah, where do you
aerovac someone when you're inthe south pole, not the south,
or even, uh, what was it?
Fourth, the other like where doyou, where do you aerovac all
these people?
Christchurch, new zealand oh mygod, and that's what a two-hour
flight well, it depends.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
So we have okay, I know, here here comes the long
answer.
I apologize, but yeah.
So we have different planes outthere, right?
So we have like C-130s and thenwe have like the Globemaster,
which is the big military plane.
The big military plane is theone that you all want to be on,
which is going to go fromChristchurch to um McMurdo in
(25:30):
about four hours, right, fourhours.
However, when the runways startto melt because, you have to
remember, antarctica is prettymuch just ice, right?
So at a certain point ourphoenix airfield is no longer
able to hold the glow master,the c-130, so we go to the
(25:52):
hercules.
And then, once we go to thehercules, which is the little
prop plane right, I say little,it's not little, but it's
smaller than the Glowmaster Thenyou actually have a plane
that's on skis and it needs toland.
You know it can land on asmaller runway, that is not.
They're not quite set up thesame, it's not as packed, right,
(26:13):
it can be on a less packedrunway.
So that plane will come andland and then go to Christchurch
, and now you're looking atabout an eight to nine hour
flight, depending on theheadwind and, of course, when I
was going back to Christchurch,I was on the little plane with
the bucket for a bathroom, bythe way, and, you know, at the
back of the plane flying forabout nine hours because we were
(26:38):
flying into the wind.
So you hope for the big plane,but sometimes you get the little
plane and going to south pole,you have no choice.
It's either going to be abasler, which is one of those
little older world war ii planes, or it's going to be the
hercules.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
So all I have is an image of you, like, like, if
you're on YouTube just pullingon something so that the
propeller goes uh well, that'sall I can imagine.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
I will tell you, it is not uncommon for those
flights to actually not take off, and one of the first times I
was on the Hercules gettingready to leave South Pole, we
were on on the plane and ofcourse you have to imagine this
plane.
There are no seats.
This isn't commercial, this isa military.
So they have these nets alongthe side of the plane and in the
(27:26):
middle of the plane and thenyou know a bunch of cargo in the
back and you're just sitting onthese nets and you're packed in
like sardines, everybody'spacked in in there, like you
know big red coats that we wearfor National Science Foundation,
and we're all packed in and wehave these little tiny port
windows that you know, if you'relucky, you can maybe see out of
.
They're not everywhere.
(27:46):
Again, not a commercial plane.
So we're on this plane and we'regetting ready to leave and this
plane all we're doing is goingback, turning, going back,
turning.
We're like what is going on?
And so apparently they werehaving difficulty and getting
something with the plane.
They're having some kind ofproblem.
So we basically effectively gota ride around the airfield
(28:10):
before they then just took usoff and said, nope, not today,
it'll be a different day us offand said, nope, not today, it'll
be a different day.
So that happens, and there'sbeen times like, uh, when I was
working at the airfield in southpole, one of the hercules was
coming in.
They weren't being, theyweren't able to see the runway
very clearly.
So they came, came down likethey were gonna land, and then
(28:32):
they went aheadended, turnedaround and they left.
Wow, so that can happen, yeah.
And can you imagine being thatpoor person on that plane who's
thinking I'm going to get to goto the bathroom here in five or
10 minutes and then, all of asudden, nope, now you're going
back to McMurdo, it's anotherthree hour flight.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
My God, there's a lot of unique challenges with that
stuff absolutely but did youenjoy yourself, which is the key
, important question I have Idid.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
I did the communities out there are what really make
it, and I think that's becauseeverybody is out there for the
same goal.
Everybody is out to support thescience, everybody is out out
to be, you know, an adventurer.
Everybody wants to go hikingand biking and skiing and doing
all sorts of things.
So there was a lot.
And for me you know I live outin the country, out in
(29:26):
Washington state, so I mean Ihave horses, I go riding, that's
what I do for fun.
So for me it was like being ina city Now, granted, it's not a
big city, but for me it was likea lot of socialization, more
than I'm used to, because I'mused to this country, you know,
quiet country, living where Idon't have a lot of friends
(29:48):
nearby.
And so it was.
It definitely was quite theexperience.
And when I did get to McMurdo,when you are a first year person
at McMurdo station, you willsleep in a room with three other
people.
You will have roommates, andI'm not talking like divided
room, I'm talking about a roomwith three other people.
(30:09):
And you know, you guys getcreative and you hang up
curtains to sort of make yourown space and that kind of thing
.
But I'm a 40 year old woman andI was staying in a room with
three 20 year olds and I waslike this is you know?
I feel like I'm back in mycollege days here.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
My God, that's.
That must've been a quit thehead trip.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
Yeah, it was.
And they say you come back andthen you, you like, get better
lodging as time goes by, likeyou might get one roommate the
next time.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
So is that what's gonna?
Are you gonna go back?
Speaker 3 (30:42):
um, I think I would like to go back one day as a
therapist.
I think that my days arecomplete as a firefighter and
you know, of course, when Iapplied to go out there, I had
not been working as career firefor about eight years or so, and
so I thought I'm going to applybecause this is something I've
(31:05):
always wanted to do and theytake me, they take me.
If they don't take me, theydon't take me.
Right, and I applied and theytook me, and so I thought, well,
ok, I guess you know I'm goingto shut down my practice for a
little while, because, also, Itell my clients you know, if you
there's something you reallylove and you want to do you
better, go for it.
We don't want to have regretsat the end of the day, kind of
(31:26):
thing.
So I was living what I waspreaching and I went out there
and I did it.
So, but I do think that I love,love, love, love being a
therapist.
I love it more than I everthought I would.
And, of course, you know, I grewup in that same family four
generations, navy men and womenwho really did not believe in
(31:49):
therapy.
They did not believe in it,right?
So it's surprising to me if youwould ask me, of course, you
know, 15 years ago, whatever, ifI had, if I even thought about
being a therapist or even seeinga therapist, I would have been
like are you out of your mind?
So again, this is why I relatereally well with my clients and
(32:11):
this is why, when I work withclients, I tend to I tell them a
lot of times I'm probably goingto be unusual as a therapist in
some ways, because I try tosort of sneak in interventions.
I like to present interventionsin a way that doesn't feel like
therapy, because I know, I feel, you know, sometimes the idea
(32:33):
of therapy already daunting, butthen to show up to a therapist
who literally sits there andstares at you and is like you
know, this is your time, what doyou want to say?
Speaker 2 (32:45):
It happened to me this week.
Actually, one of my therapy,one of my clients you know I
have he happens to be in thegroup and then he said in
individual counseling, you knowwhen you were talking about and
I can't remember exactly exactly, but we're talking about
cognitive distortions, and he'slike you heard you talk about
this, I was wondering about anyand I'm like, oh so I actually
did therapy, even in a group offirst responders and alpha
(33:09):
people.
Uh, that you like yeah yeah,yeah, we don't want to talk
about that, do we?
Uh, it's doing thoseinterventions without them
knowing.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
Right.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
I think that's important.
And first responder therapistsI hope you heard me and first
responders now you know how wework.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
Right, we try to keep it fun, we try to keep it light
and we are also okay with youcussing.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
We actually had another conversation prior to
starting the recording todaythat we are okay with cussing
and actually there is somescience that supports it is
actually good for your mentalhealth.
So there you go.
I mean to me, I think thatsometimes you know I think I did
this a few episodes ago butsometimes a really good fuck,
really well placed, is justamazing great.
And for my listeners who knowsI'm from quebec and my first
language is french uh, fuckmeans seal in french, for real.
(34:04):
You can look it up.
So I tell people I'm justtalking about seals, that's all
I'm doing.
I'm not swearing, talk aboutseals.
Um, so something to keep inmind.
But, as you know, like again theconversation went really well.
A couple of things I wanted toask you before we kind of have
to wrap up here.
The first question is you know,we talk about firefighters, we
(34:26):
talk about EMTs, we talk aboutparamedics, we talk about
individuals in this type offield.
How did your own experiencekind of like influence as a
firefighter influence, how youlook at trauma and its effect on
the first responder world,because that's an important
question to ask so how did mypersonal experience um shape?
Speaker 3 (34:48):
is that what you're asking me?
Speaker 2 (34:49):
it can be yours or you can be your observations.
It could be anything you want.
Speaker 3 (34:54):
Oh okay, um, well, I feel like my personal
experiences obviously haveincluded responding to, like, a
lot of emergencies, which areoften intense and traumatic, and
there's a lot of acute stressresponses that occur right after
(35:16):
you experience something likethat.
And I think a lot of times whathappens is we sort of as first
responders, we tend to becomealmost numb right.
Again, this is a part of howwe're meant to appear, putting
on that professional appearancefor people, that kind of thing.
(35:40):
And so I think that just mypersonal experience is
experiencing everythingfirsthand, right Seeing how
different excuse me, differentevents affect my colleagues, how
we have conversations afterthose difficult events.
(36:00):
Again, a lot of times there's alot of humor going on, a lot of
even detachment.
You know you get co workers whoare clearly like their head is
not in the game anymore.
After that happens, just sortof witnessing this, and then I
think that I'm sorry, I'm kindof rambling now, I'm like I'm
(36:22):
trying to think how to answerthis more succinct.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
No, I dig that.
It really is about answeringthe best you can, because I
think that in World War II wetalked about was it the 100-mile
stare or whatever the hell wecalled it, and that's where
before we started calling itPTSD or trauma.
And you know, it's not thefirst.
(36:46):
In my experience anyway, it'snot the first traumatic
experience that a firstresponder has.
It's usually the 27th one.
And is it number 25?
Is it the 30th?
You get it, but you get to thatpoint where you're just like
staring into space, you're justdoing what you need to do, but
you're no longer there.
Speaker 3 (37:03):
Right, right.
And so I think that we oh, mygoodness I'm having I'm blanking
on what I'm trying to say herewe have a way of basically
bringing ourselves out of thesituation right, and that can be
by we kind of go into our head,we become numb, we have obvious
(37:26):
feelings of helplessness andguilt, right, especially if we
can't save somebody, which alsocan highlight in our brain
feelings of inadequacy andself-blame.
And so, anyway, the experiencesI have, I basically think that
they've taught me, you know, thesignificance of seeking help
and developing coping strategies, and I've learned that the
(37:51):
trauma doesn't just affect ourmental health.
It affects our relationships,our decision-making, our overall
well-being from day to day.
And so understanding theseeffects through doing this work
has helped me to advocate formental health resources and
support systems for firstresponders.
So I think it's important torecognize and acknowledge and
(38:13):
address that trauma is essentialfor both.
I'm sorry, addressing trauma isessential for both individual
and team resilience.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
I mean, if you're not there like someone mentioned
once on my podcast who is afirefighter is like if you're
not there because of your owntrauma, that affects the person
that's with you.
If we're going on a calltogether, you know it's the
importance of getting thattreatment is so essential
because you being that waydoesn't affect just you, it
affects your, you know your,your teammate, your whole team
(38:46):
and the department.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
Usually, when you're not there, not to mention
relationships outside of work.
Right right, your, yourchildren, your wife, your spouse
, whatever, whoever that personis, those relationships then
have an issue.
You know you might have anissue with that.
And then now you're coming backto work again.
It's sort of a big loop.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
That's why it's so important to take care of, you
know, underlying issues,underlying thoughts,
dysfunctional thinking patterns,underlying issues underlying
thoughts, dysfunctional thinkingpatterns, things like that,
right, and I think that that'swhat brings you to for me anyway
, to bring up MindForge TherapyGroup and it's your group, I'm
pretty sure and tell us a littlemore about that.
Speaker 3 (39:28):
Sure.
So I created MindForge Therapyout of necessity A few years ago
when I was really trying tofigure out what I wanted to do.
I was, you know, doing duringCOVID.
I was a nurse and I wentthrough that whole process
working as an RN, and that'swhere, again, I was seeing a lot
(39:50):
of the burnout and the fatigueright, we're having that across
the industries and so I wasdoing a lot of soul searching as
well.
I was trying to figure out whatdo I want to do, how do I want
to pivot, what do I love doing,what do I not love doing?
And this is about the time Iwent back and I got my master's
in social work and again duringthat time I was like, what do I
(40:12):
want to do with this?
And the answer kept coming backto me is that I want to work
with a population that I loveand that I know, and again,
that's my nurses, that's myhealthcare workers, that's, you
know, again, frontline firstresponders, that kind of thing.
And I really feel like there'ssuch a need there because, again
, not only do a lot of times weas first responders, we don't
(40:36):
want to seek out that assistance, but it's also harder when you
have somebody that may notunderstand what you're going
through, or like in the case Ibrought up earlier, where you
talk to somebody to help you andthen you end up making them
break down, and I mean againthis I've heard of this
happening to multiple clinicians, where those clinicians were
(40:57):
not prepared.
So that's the thing is.
I wanted to bring to thecommunity support that is
knowledgeable, that is comingfrom somebody who has done the
work, who's also not going tosit there and cry if you have to
(41:20):
talk about something difficultand also isn't going to judge
you because I again, I'vefirsthand experienced it and
gives you an area where you cancuss, you can scream, you can
cry.
You're not going to get judged,you can be all those things, do
all all those things.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
Right.
Speaker 3 (41:37):
And so that was the idea.
And also I had a lot of peoplewere telling me oh don't, you
know, don't take insurance,because there are a lot of
clinicians that are moving awayfrom taking insurance.
And I said I want to be asaccessible as possible.
So you know, I'm I'm on many,many, many insurances, so I take
lots of insurances and even ifI don't take an insurance of
(42:04):
somebody, you know that theydon't have kind of thing or I
don't.
I'm sorry, I don't take aninsurance somebody has.
I will work with them to makeit affordable because I feel
like it's so important to getthe help.
So that's what I'm here for,that's what MindForge was
created to do.
And again, I have a great dealof clients right now who are
(42:24):
nurses, firefighters, I've gotdentists, I've had FBI agents,
I've had Amazon executives, I'vehad all sorts of people high
stress, and you know the thingis, a lot of us are dealing with
a lot of the same issues and so, anyway, that's what MindForge
is here for.
I want to connect with thosepeople and I want them to come
(42:44):
in at least give it a try ifthey're.
You know, they never hadtherapy and I get a lot of
people like that.
They don't know what to expectand I just say come, try it out.
And I'm probably not going tobe the same as the next
therapist, right, because noneof us really are the same as the
next.
But I tend to be a little bitmore lighthearted.
I do enjoy humor as well and,again, you know, a lot of us
(43:07):
like our humor to cope withthings.
So I'm okay.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
You need your dark humor and you need your gallery.
Speaker 3 (43:15):
You need our dark humor, and so, anyway, if you
need some dark humor therapy,please come to MindForge and
have a nice time.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
How do we reach you at MindForge?
Speaker 3 (43:24):
So they can either call me.
They can go to my website,which is wwwmindforgetherapycom.
I actually have aself-scheduling link there where
they can go in and they can getall set up on that link.
They can call my business lineat 253-398-9565.
(43:45):
I also have a Facebook page forMindForge, which is always fun.
I post a lot of differentthings there I also share from
different local fire departmentsand Blue Hero Project and a lot
of different things there Ialso share from different local
fire departments and Blue HeroProject and a couple of the
other things that are importantin our community here.
And so, anyway, lots of ways,lots of ways to reach me.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
Well, I want to thank you for your time, Elizabeth.
I've got to wrap it up herebecause we went this one fast
and I really appreciate you.
I appreciate what we talkedabout and hope we get to talk
again very soon.
You come back on a podcast.
Speaker 3 (44:21):
I would love that.
Thank you so much for having me.
Thanks, Elizabeth.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
Well, that was episode 207.
Thank you, elizabeth Eklund.
Can't wait to show thosepictures on my website and
through the podcast, so pleasego and check it out, and I hope
you join us for episode 208,where we're going to talk about
Father's Day, and I hope you seeme then.
Speaker 1 (44:45):
Please like, subscribe and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful and, as a reminder, this
podcast is for informational,educational and entertainment
purposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(45:08):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action, where
strength meets strategy andcourage to help you move forward
.
Each week, your host, steveBisson, a therapist with over
two decades of experience in thefirst responder community,
brings you powerfulconversations about resilience,
growth and healing throughtrauma and grief.
Whether you're navigating thecomplex journey of grief,
(00:22):
processing trauma or seeking tobuild resilience in high-stress
environments, this podcast isyour trusted companion.
From first responders facingdaily challenges to emergency
personnel managing criticalsituations, to leaders carrying
the weight of difficultdecisions, we're here to support
your journey.
Through authentic interviews,expert discussions and
(00:43):
real-world experiences, we divedeep into the heart of human
resilience.
We explore crucial topics liketrauma recovery, grief
processing, stress managementand emotional well-being.
Our conversations bridge thegap between professional insight
and practical application,offering you tools and
strategies that work in the realworld.
(01:03):
Join us as we create a spacewhere healing is possible, where
grief finds understanding andwhere resilience becomes your
foundation for growth.
This is Resilience Developmentin Action with Steve Bisson.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
So which of the intros do you guys like best?
The shorter one?
The longer one?
Let me know in the comments.
Go to send me a text in thenotes.
But welcome to episode 207.
If you haven't listened toepisode 206, cindy Doyle was on
Code for Couples and Code forCouples.
If you get the drift of thatand if you don't listen to the
episode, you'll get it.
But she was a great interview.
(01:39):
But for episode 207, we'regoing to meet with Elizabeth
Eklund.
Elizabeth is another person Imet through Facebook.
She has a background infirefighter, emt and nurse.
She has a lot of experience onthe table, as well as working as
an airport rescue firefighterin Antarctica.
Can't wait to talk about that.
I'll be perfectly honest withyou.
She has 15 years of combinedservice in the emergency
(02:02):
services and she's trying toreduce the stigma regarding
therapy and is committed toaddressing issues such as
depression, anxiety, burnout andPTSD for the professionals who
serve.
I'm excited and I hope youenjoy the interview.
And here it is GetFreeai.
(02:24):
Yes, you've heard me talk aboutit previously in other episodes
, but I'm going to talk about itagain because get freeai is
just a great service.
Imagine being able to payattention to your clients all
the time.
Instead of writing notes andmaking sure that the note's
going to sound good and how areyou going to write that note,
and things like that, getfreeailiberates you from making sure
(02:46):
that you're writing what theclient is saying, because it is
keeping track of what you'resaying and will create, after
the end of every session, aprogress note.
But it goes above and beyondthat.
Not only does it create aprogress note, it also gives you
suggestions for goals, givesyou even a mental status if
you've asked questions aroundthat, as well as being able to
(03:08):
write a letter for your clientto know what you talked about.
So that's the great, greatthing.
It saves me time, it saves me alot of aggravation and it just
speeds up the progress noteprocess so well.
And for $99 a month.
I know that that's nothing.
That's worth my time, that'sworth my money.
(03:29):
You know.
The best part of it too is thatif you want to go and put in
the code Steve50 when you getthe service at the checkout code
is Steve50, you get $50 offyour first month and if you get
a whole year, you save a whole10% for the whole year.
So again, steve50 at checkoutfor getfreeai will give you $50
(03:51):
off for the first month and,like I said, get a full year,
get 10% off, get free fromwriting notes, get free from
always scribbling while you'retalking to a client and just
paying attention to your client.
So they went out, you went out,everybody wins and I think that
this is the greatest thing.
And if you're up to a pointwhere you got to change a
treatment plan, well, the goalsare generated for you.
(04:13):
So, getfreeai code Steve50 tosave $50 on your first month.
Well, hi everyone and welcome toepisode 207.
I have an amazing guest and Imet her again through Facebook
and through a group, and what Ifound fascinating is I've never
(04:35):
had someone who is stationed inAntarctica.
I got it wrong and she's fromAlaska, so she's like, hit every
kind of like Antarctica,antarctica and everything else
you can think of Arctic.
I know I'm just kidding, butanyway, elizabeth Eklund,
welcome to.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Resilience Development in Action.
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
You know, one of the things that's fun is that people
always laugh.
But I love having someone whohasn't been on too many podcasts
, because this is just aconversation and I kind of like
remind everyone that if you'relistening to Resilience
Development in Action, you'reprobably a first responder,
you're probably a therapist whoworks with first responders or
you like people shooting theshit, and that's exactly what I
(05:17):
wanted always to be able to do,because some people who have
done too many podcasts becometoo structured.
So don't worry about it, justbe yourself and just begin being
yourself.
If you could, I read your bio.
Obviously, we talked a littlebit through you Facebook, what's
it called?
Messenger, and so I get to knowyou a little bit.
But how about you introduceyourself to the audience?
Speaker 3 (05:39):
Okay, my name is Elizabeth Eklund.
I have a lot of letters behindmy name.
This goes a little somethinglike this MSW, bsn, lswaic and
RN.
I'm also an IFSAC 2 firefighter, hazmat operator and EMT
retired, and I'm also the ownerof MindForge Therapy Group,
(06:04):
where I am not only a firstresponder and a nurse myself,
but I also serve firstresponders, frontline workers,
that kind of wonderful thing,because that's also what I work
in.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Well, we need more of you.
I like having people like Ithink a few episodes before you
had someone who used to be apolice officer who is now
getting his master's inpsychology, and while I'm more
than happy to say I have someexperience, I don't know what it
is to be firsthand right therewith those situations.
So more and more of you areneeded.
(06:40):
So thank you for joining ourside of the dark side of the
treatment facility.
Well, we're not quite theinsurance companies just yet,
but we're on the dark side.
You know, I, when people I putthis out to a group online and
say, hey, who wants to come onmy podcast?
And you answered fairly quicklyand I always wonder what, why
(07:01):
people want to come on to mypodcast.
I mean, I'm just one guy, soI'd like to hear why you decided
like, oh yeah, I want to go onthis podcast.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Absolutely.
I think what's important is themessage that we're trying to
get out to first respondergroups.
A lot of these groups are notnecessarily going to get help
for mental health issues becauseof the stigma surrounding
(07:29):
mental health, and, of course,we are all strong and resilient
in what we do, and so a lot oftimes we feel like when we reach
out for help, there's going tobe a stigma there, we are going
to feel less strong, we're goingto feel vulnerable, which, of
course, we don't want to feel.
(07:50):
And so I think, by coming onpodcasts, talking out in the
community, reaching out todifferent groups, however that
may be, is very important,because otherwise we're missing
an opportunity to connect withpeople and offer up the help
(08:10):
that they may be needing.
And, of course, as everybodyknows, access to mental health
is very hard to get.
But it seems like there's morebarriers, even with our groups,
because we put the barriersthere ourselves and there's
obviously.
Then there's other barriersthat we have with, you know,
(08:31):
insurance or, just again,finding a therapist who
understands.
And I've had it where I've hadclients come to me and say, you
know, I went to a therapist andI immediately couldn't work with
them because I would explain tothem this traumatic incident
that occurred or happened andthe clinician would start crying
.
So that's where you know yourun into some issues too.
(08:55):
They have a bad experience intherapy.
So, anyway, I have been lookingfor ways to sort of connect
with the community and I thoughtthis would be a great way to
reach out, and not just becauseobviously I'm in Washington
state and I think you are on theEast Coast, so this is kind of
a national way to reach out,which is great.
(09:16):
I enjoy, you know, however, Ican getting out and having a
conversation about mental health.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Well, you know the other part too, that I really
appreciate you talking about twoimportant things the stigma,
and you know one of the thingsthat I hear a lot of stuff on
this coast, particularly theNortheast, you know.
Yeah, well, there's a stigmahere in the Northeast because
we're tough people.
I'm like, eh, pretty sure it'sacross the country, actually
(09:44):
North America in general.
So you bring that up, it makesperfect sense and you're
absolutely right.
I mean, one of the things wetalk about constantly on this
podcast is cultural competency.
If a therapist can't handle it,then you need to be perfectly
blunt that you can't handle it.
I can't handle certain things asa therapist.
If you send me and I'm tryingto I can't work with people who
(10:11):
are elderly because I want totake them home and take care of
them, and that's not healthy,right, that's not right.
So I don't work with theelderly because I would not
challenge them.
I have zero qualms aboutchallenging particularly first
responders, my military folksand all that, but for older
people I just want to take themhome and like, oh, they're so
sweet.
I talk to my therapist about mycountertransference issues.
Don't worry about that.
(10:32):
But the point is is that I thinkthat there's definitely things
that you can't do.
Well, and I think that it's agreat message you just said some
therapists have just have tosay I can't do it.
And I'm sure you have otherstories like that, if people
like started to cry.
Or I've had people tell me,like I told my therapist about a
story.
There's a firefighter and we'llsay it was a medical, pretty
(10:54):
significant medical, but a veryyoung human and they they need
to take a breath and have to getup, and the firefighter,
paramedic, are like what thefuck is this?
So I think it's important totalk about cultural competency
every single time we can.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
Absolutely Right, I agree.
I think that being culturallycompetent means that you are
able to work with the populationthat you are supporting, and I
think that's important why a lotof therapists are moving to
this niche of working with firstresponders because we have the
(11:32):
cultural competence to work withthis group, and that's coming
from being you know, like youmentioned the last guest being a
police officer.
Having been a firefighter,you're coming in with an
awareness that a lot of othertherapists aren't going to have,
and so it helps greatly alsowith the therapeutic
relationship, which we all knowis extremely important for even
(11:57):
facilitating the therapeuticprocess.
So there's that there.
There's that.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
No, but I think it's.
It's also being able tono-transcript.
Therapists have to be able tohandle it.
And I tell people, if you wantto know if you can handle first
responders, if you're in thecontinuous states, even Alaska,
even Hawaii go on a ride along,Go at a firehouse, Sit around
(12:24):
the table, Even if it's at shiftchange.
Up here usually they are on 24,so shift change usually is in
the morning.
Go sit and learn, See how itgoes.
And I think that that'simportant to do because until
you, you know, I've been oncalls, I know what a call is.
But if someone says, oh, I wason a call once, someone gave you
a phone call, you're like, ohmy God, I'm already behind the
(12:46):
eight ball with this therapist.
Knowing those terms, knowingthose things is so essential.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
Right, I agree, and I think it would give them some
insight.
But I also think that a lot ofthe insight comes from, you know
, the frequent exposure totrauma, right, first responders
regularly encountering traumaticsituations, and that's a
cumulative grief that occursfrom experiencing it over and
(13:14):
over and over again.
So going on a ride along, great, to get in there and, you know,
meet the first responders andmaybe to see firsthand a little
bit of what's going on.
But also it's just one of thosethings that I don't think the
understanding will be that deepunless you have spent time in
the field for many years.
(13:35):
Spent time in the field formany years.
Then you understand, likeemotional detachment and how the
public expectations affect you,right, and that we're supposed
to be heroes and we have tomaintain composure and we're not
supposed to be human and we'renot supposed to have emotional,
visible responses to what'shappening.
(13:56):
And so this is, of course, whatalso leads to all the burnout
and you know the impact on ourteam dynamics and also,
obviously, again going back tostigma it creates.
You know, stigma surroundingvulnerability and the fact that
we're not supposed to bevulnerable, we're supposed to
appear strong and resilient, andthat kind of thing in the face
(14:20):
of the public.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
And you forgot another important part the high
levels of suicide in the firstresponder world, which to me is
one of the biggest plagues noone is talking about.
You know, that's part of what Italk about, because who has the
access to the most lethal means?
Speaker 3 (14:42):
Right.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Right, and I think that that's something that's not
talked about, because, okay,don't go talk to someone because
you're weak.
Now you don't talk to someonefor a while, you can't handle
your own stuff anymore, notbecause you're bad, but because
you never reached out, and thenthe best answer is to off
yourself.
And if this is too graphic forpeople, I apologize, but I just
want to be real about things.
That's why you need to liftthat stigma.
(15:05):
That checkup from the neck upis as important as the checkup
from the whole body 100%.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
And I think what you're also bringing up is
coping mechanisms.
First responders generallydon't have very healthy coping
mechanisms.
Nurses are known also forhaving a lot of substance abuse.
There's been a lot of issueswith that, like taking
medications from patients,things like that and a lot of it
comes down to they don't knowhow to deal with their grief.
They don't know how to dealwith, you know, the
post-traumatic stress disorderthat's sort of inherent in our
(15:39):
industry.
They just don't know how todeal with that.
And also, you know, a lot oftimes they turn to peers, and
peers can be great but itdoesn't generally provide the
support that they need, thatthey would get with a therapist.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Right when I hear about turning to peers.
Peer support groups areabsolutely important and I
certainly run a couple of thoseand I know people have in
different departments a hundredpercent important.
However, I don't do therapyduring my supervision with other
therapists.
I actually have a therapist whodoes therapy with me and I do
my supervision with peers orhave those conversations.
(16:15):
That's how I use the example ofyeah, it's a way different,
yeah, you can talk to your peerand again, nothing wrong.
And if the peers are, are, are,that's that's enough for you,
that's that's great.
I'm okay with that.
Sometimes it's not.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
Right, exactly.
And again, I think this is whyyou know we are trying to train
first responders, health careproviders, things like that, on
recognizing the signs of likePTSD and burnout.
And then also there's a realbig push for implementing CISD
sessions, especially after, youknow, traumatic incidents occur
(16:50):
on scene.
But that's also not alwayspossible.
But that's also not alwayspossible.
I mean, the last time I wasworking, I remember and again,
this isn't including Antarctica,which was very recent, I'm
talking about working in, youknow, oak Grove EMS back in
Kentucky, and that's whereyou're just running, running,
running all day.
And so you have criticalincident after critical incident
(17:12):
and there's not always a lot oftime for a CISD to occur.
And I recall times where I hada great supervisor back there
and he would call me up and belike are you okay?
You know, is everything okay?
That would be our form of CISDand, you know, be mid run to
somewhere else.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
So well, yeah, and I think we, you know, sisms and
SCISDs are some very similarnames, very similar process.
But you know, like also gettinga bunch of first responders
together to discuss an eventsometimes takes 48 to 72 hours.
By then you shoved it in thevault, you shoved it somewhere,
(17:54):
or you're a mess and youcontinue being a mess and
there's no attack here, that'sjust what it is Right.
And then there's the stigma ofbeing in a group of six, seven
people in the room going.
Yeah, I can't talk about that.
So again, do I point out theshortcomings of peer support
CISM, CISDs?
There's shortcomings of peersupport cism, cisds your
(18:15):
shortcomings.
A therapist, I've mentionedthat too to me.
I think it being informed ofyour options is important, but
knowing what are the limits ofthose options is also as
important.
But more importantly right now,I want to know how you do
firefighter emt work on a polarbear.
Uh well there.
(18:36):
That was my way.
That was my way to present thatlike I want to hear about
antarctica yeah, so antarcticadoes not have bears, despite
what a lot of us, that's thearctic.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
Oh gee right yeah, so there's no bears in antarctica?
Um, there are lots and lots ofseals and, you know, during a
part of the year we get the orcaand the whales and penguins.
Um, so for me, I signed up togo during the summer.
So, uh, summer season forAntarctica is opposite because
(19:08):
of where we are in the globe.
So I left last fall.
Um, I ended up working rightabout four months and I started
out where I did my first monthand a half in McMurdo Station,
which is on Ross Island inAntarctica, and out there the
firefighters are supportingMcMurdo Station, which, at the
(19:30):
height of the summer, has about1200 residents, and it's not, in
my opinion, not too bad.
Again, I did grow up in Alaska.
That's why I was joking withyou about, like, did you mean
Alaska or Antarctica?
So it was in summer.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
This was pre-interview.
I didn't make any mistakes yeton the podcast.
Don't sell me out.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
Oh okay, sorry, Sorry , but yeah.
So it's interesting thatMcMurdo to me reminded me a lot
of Alaska.
It has a very dry cold, it'svery mountainous, it's beautiful
, you know, if you like snow andyou like mountains.
It has a little bit of a town,so there's bars and there's
(20:07):
coffee shops and it's kind ofwhat you would expect in a town.
As far as the fire department,the fire department rotates
about eight firefighters or soto the airfield at every time.
We're responsible for townthere as well as airport rescue
firefighting, so we would spenda lot of time out on the
different airfields.
(20:27):
Most exciting thing happenedwhile I was there was we had a
couple treadmill fires.
We had a couple treadmill firesand I had one patient who was
medevaced and the medical teamhad difficulty getting vein
access.
They had already done some veinaccess and they were running
out of areas to stick.
So they came to me on theairfield and said, hey, could
(20:48):
you put an IV in this guy beforeyou put him on a flight?
And so I did.
So that was the excitement ofthat area.
But of course, if something likea plane were to crash or any of
those issues, then of course wewould be ready to respond.
So thankfully nothing like thatsuper traumatic happened while
(21:09):
I was out there, but all in all,very, very good, fun experience
.
I do recommend for people ifthey're interested in you know
the extreme contract work theycan find something through
Amentum if they're interested inlike firefighting work or for
the nursing side.
Utmb University of TexasMedical Branch is who contracts
(21:30):
out for that.
So I kind of had options goingover there and in fact there is
a therapist who is out there butit's yeah, it's a first
responder company out ofColorado and I want to say it's
called Nicoletti Flattery andAssociates.
I might be messing that up, soif I am, I apologize, but they
(21:51):
have the contract with theNational Science Foundation, so
they have a therapist that's outthere during parts of the year,
and so I was able to connectwith them and have conversations
.
So that was really interesting.
But halfway through my timethere they actually asked me if
I would go out to South Pole.
And so South Pole is a biggerdeal, because you're at 12,000
(22:15):
feet elevation.
It's only about 150 peopleduring the summer and it's only
solely for ARF, it's only to beout in the airfield.
They have a fire brigade that istrained for the fire station,
which they train them early onin the year, and then the fire
brigade stays in the buildingduring the winter, which is, you
(22:37):
know, like a nine monthrotation, and so basically, as
the firefighters out there, wewould train the brigade to then
take over, because there's nofirefighters there during the
winter, because there's noflights, there's no planes going
in and out of South Pole.
So that was an interestingexperience because I said yes
before I really understood whatI was saying yes to, and I
(22:59):
didn't realize that I was goingto be needing to take medication
to deal with the elevation.
And then, once I got out there,the fun was looking at my heart
rate.
Of course, because I'm a nurse,you know I brought my pole
socks and my own gear and stuff.
So my, my pole socks every daywas like 82% O2 on room air and
I'm like this is reallyinteresting yeah.
(23:21):
Yeah.
So that kind of throws you off.
And, of course, after about twoweeks it was up to about 92%
and, um, I could feel a lotbetter, clearly on 92%.
But you know, what'sinteresting is, after spending
time at South Pole, I went backto McMurdo on my way home and
(23:43):
the very weekend that I cameback to McMurdo I decided to run
a 10k, because I understand nowwhy athletes train in high
altitude, because once I cameback I felt like superwomanwoman
and I was like I'm just readyto like do all these things.
I hadn't been running, you knowat all, for two months in South
Pole and I get back and I waslike 10k, it's, that's fine,
(24:04):
it's six miles, that's easythat's not the thought of
everyone, by the way oh, it'sfirefighter mentality, I can do
it no, I did say that it wasn'sfirefighter mentality.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
I can do it.
No, I did say that it wasn'tfirefighter mentality, yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
So anyway, it was a great experience.
I learned a lot.
I really love National ScienceFoundation.
I love the work they're doing.
Parts of me wish one day, maybeas a young child, that I had
thought about becoming anastronaut, because I think I
would have loved that line ofwork.
My husband says I'm already aspace cadet.
(24:40):
So you know there's that I'mworking out okay with that, but
you know there's worse things tobe called anyway, right.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
So again, maybe my curiosity yeah, where do you
aerovac someone when you're inthe south pole, not the south,
or even, uh, what was it?
Fourth, the other like where doyou, where do you aerovac all
these people?
Christchurch, new zealand oh mygod, and that's what a two-hour
flight well, it depends.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
So we have okay, I know, here here comes the long
answer.
I apologize, but yeah.
So we have different planes outthere, right?
So we have like C-130s and thenwe have like the Globemaster,
which is the big military plane.
The big military plane is theone that you all want to be on,
which is going to go fromChristchurch to um McMurdo in
(25:30):
about four hours, right, fourhours.
However, when the runways startto melt because, you have to
remember, antarctica is prettymuch just ice, right?
So at a certain point ourphoenix airfield is no longer
able to hold the glow master,the c-130, so we go to the
(25:52):
hercules.
And then, once we go to thehercules, which is the little
prop plane right, I say little,it's not little, but it's
smaller than the Glowmaster Thenyou actually have a plane
that's on skis and it needs toland.
You know it can land on asmaller runway, that is not.
They're not quite set up thesame, it's not as packed, right,
(26:13):
it can be on a less packedrunway.
So that plane will come andland and then go to Christchurch
, and now you're looking atabout an eight to nine hour
flight, depending on theheadwind and, of course, when I
was going back to Christchurch,I was on the little plane with
the bucket for a bathroom, bythe way, and, you know, at the
back of the plane flying forabout nine hours because we were
(26:38):
flying into the wind.
So you hope for the big plane,but sometimes you get the little
plane and going to south pole,you have no choice.
It's either going to be abasler, which is one of those
little older world war ii planes, or it's going to be the
hercules.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
So all I have is an image of you, like, like, if
you're on YouTube just pullingon something so that the
propeller goes uh well, that'sall I can imagine.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
I will tell you, it is not uncommon for those
flights to actually not take off, and one of the first times I
was on the Hercules gettingready to leave South Pole, we
were on on the plane and ofcourse you have to imagine this
plane.
There are no seats.
This isn't commercial, this isa military.
So they have these nets alongthe side of the plane and in the
(27:26):
middle of the plane and thenyou know a bunch of cargo in the
back and you're just sitting onthese nets and you're packed in
like sardines, everybody'spacked in in there, like you
know big red coats that we wearfor National Science Foundation,
and we're all packed in and wehave these little tiny port
windows that you know, if you'relucky, you can maybe see out of
.
They're not everywhere.
(27:46):
Again, not a commercial plane.
So we're on this plane and we'regetting ready to leave and this
plane all we're doing is goingback, turning, going back,
turning.
We're like what is going on?
And so apparently they werehaving difficulty and getting
something with the plane.
They're having some kind ofproblem.
So we basically effectively gota ride around the airfield
(28:10):
before they then just took usoff and said, nope, not today,
it'll be a different day us offand said, nope, not today, it'll
be a different day.
So that happens, and there'sbeen times like, uh, when I was
working at the airfield in southpole, one of the hercules was
coming in.
They weren't being, theyweren't able to see the runway
very clearly.
So they came, came down likethey were gonna land, and then
(28:32):
they went aheadended, turnedaround and they left.
Wow, so that can happen, yeah.
And can you imagine being thatpoor person on that plane who's
thinking I'm going to get to goto the bathroom here in five or
10 minutes and then, all of asudden, nope, now you're going
back to McMurdo, it's anotherthree hour flight.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
My God, there's a lot of unique challenges with that
stuff absolutely but did youenjoy yourself, which is the key
, important question I have Idid.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
I did the communities out there are what really make
it, and I think that's becauseeverybody is out there for the
same goal.
Everybody is out to support thescience, everybody is out out
to be, you know, an adventurer.
Everybody wants to go hikingand biking and skiing and doing
all sorts of things.
So there was a lot.
And for me you know I live outin the country, out in
(29:26):
Washington state, so I mean Ihave horses, I go riding, that's
what I do for fun.
So for me it was like being ina city Now, granted, it's not a
big city, but for me it was likea lot of socialization, more
than I'm used to, because I'mused to this country, you know,
quiet country, living where Idon't have a lot of friends
(29:48):
nearby.
And so it was.
It definitely was quite theexperience.
And when I did get to McMurdo,when you are a first year person
at McMurdo station, you willsleep in a room with three other
people.
You will have roommates, andI'm not talking like divided
room, I'm talking about a roomwith three other people.
(30:09):
And you know, you guys getcreative and you hang up
curtains to sort of make yourown space and that kind of thing
.
But I'm a 40 year old woman andI was staying in a room with
three 20 year olds and I waslike this is you know?
I feel like I'm back in mycollege days here.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
My God, that's.
That must've been a quit thehead trip.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
Yeah, it was.
And they say you come back andthen you, you like, get better
lodging as time goes by, likeyou might get one roommate the
next time.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
So is that what's gonna?
Are you gonna go back?
Speaker 3 (30:42):
um, I think I would like to go back one day as a
therapist.
I think that my days arecomplete as a firefighter and
you know, of course, when Iapplied to go out there, I had
not been working as career firefor about eight years or so, and
so I thought I'm going to applybecause this is something I've
(31:05):
always wanted to do and theytake me, they take me.
If they don't take me, theydon't take me.
Right, and I applied and theytook me, and so I thought, well,
ok, I guess you know I'm goingto shut down my practice for a
little while, because, also, Itell my clients you know, if you
there's something you reallylove and you want to do you
better, go for it.
We don't want to have regretsat the end of the day, kind of
(31:26):
thing.
So I was living what I waspreaching and I went out there
and I did it.
So, but I do think that I love,love, love, love being a
therapist.
I love it more than I everthought I would.
And, of course, you know, I grewup in that same family four
generations, navy men and womenwho really did not believe in
(31:49):
therapy.
They did not believe in it,right?
So it's surprising to me if youwould ask me, of course, you
know, 15 years ago, whatever, ifI had, if I even thought about
being a therapist or even seeinga therapist, I would have been
like are you out of your mind?
So again, this is why I relatereally well with my clients and
(32:11):
this is why, when I work withclients, I tend to I tell them a
lot of times I'm probably goingto be unusual as a therapist in
some ways, because I try tosort of sneak in interventions.
I like to present interventionsin a way that doesn't feel like
therapy, because I know, I feel, you know, sometimes the idea
(32:33):
of therapy already daunting, butthen to show up to a therapist
who literally sits there andstares at you and is like you
know, this is your time, what doyou want to say?
Speaker 2 (32:45):
It happened to me this week.
Actually, one of my therapy,one of my clients you know I
have he happens to be in thegroup and then he said in
individual counseling, you knowwhen you were talking about and
I can't remember exactly exactly, but we're talking about
cognitive distortions, and he'slike you heard you talk about
this, I was wondering about anyand I'm like, oh so I actually
did therapy, even in a group offirst responders and alpha
(33:09):
people.
Uh, that you like yeah yeah,yeah, we don't want to talk
about that, do we?
Uh, it's doing thoseinterventions without them
knowing.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
Right.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
I think that's important.
And first responder therapistsI hope you heard me and first
responders now you know how wework.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
Right, we try to keep it fun, we try to keep it light
and we are also okay with youcussing.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
We actually had another conversation prior to
starting the recording todaythat we are okay with cussing
and actually there is somescience that supports it is
actually good for your mentalhealth.
So there you go.
I mean to me, I think thatsometimes you know I think I did
this a few episodes ago butsometimes a really good fuck,
really well placed, is justamazing great.
And for my listeners who knowsI'm from quebec and my first
language is french uh, fuckmeans seal in french, for real.
(34:04):
You can look it up.
So I tell people I'm justtalking about seals, that's all
I'm doing.
I'm not swearing, talk aboutseals.
Um, so something to keep inmind.
But, as you know, like again theconversation went really well.
A couple of things I wanted toask you before we kind of have
to wrap up here.
The first question is you know,we talk about firefighters, we
(34:26):
talk about EMTs, we talk aboutparamedics, we talk about
individuals in this type offield.
How did your own experiencekind of like influence as a
firefighter influence, how youlook at trauma and its effect on
the first responder world,because that's an important
question to ask so how did mypersonal experience um shape?
Speaker 3 (34:48):
is that what you're asking me?
Speaker 2 (34:49):
it can be yours or you can be your observations.
It could be anything you want.
Speaker 3 (34:54):
Oh okay, um, well, I feel like my personal
experiences obviously haveincluded responding to, like, a
lot of emergencies, which areoften intense and traumatic, and
there's a lot of acute stressresponses that occur right after
(35:16):
you experience something likethat.
And I think a lot of times whathappens is we sort of as first
responders, we tend to becomealmost numb right.
Again, this is a part of howwe're meant to appear, putting
on that professional appearancefor people, that kind of thing.
(35:40):
And so I think that just mypersonal experience is
experiencing everythingfirsthand, right Seeing how
different excuse me, differentevents affect my colleagues, how
we have conversations afterthose difficult events.
(36:00):
Again, a lot of times there's alot of humor going on, a lot of
even detachment.
You know you get co workers whoare clearly like their head is
not in the game anymore.
After that happens, just sortof witnessing this, and then I
think that I'm sorry, I'm kindof rambling now, I'm like I'm
(36:22):
trying to think how to answerthis more succinct.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
No, I dig that.
It really is about answeringthe best you can, because I
think that in World War II wetalked about was it the 100-mile
stare or whatever the hell wecalled it, and that's where
before we started calling itPTSD or trauma.
And you know, it's not thefirst.
(36:46):
In my experience anyway, it'snot the first traumatic
experience that a firstresponder has.
It's usually the 27th one.
And is it number 25?
Is it the 30th?
You get it, but you get to thatpoint where you're just like
staring into space, you're justdoing what you need to do, but
you're no longer there.
Speaker 3 (37:03):
Right, right.
And so I think that we oh, mygoodness I'm having I'm blanking
on what I'm trying to say herewe have a way of basically
bringing ourselves out of thesituation right, and that can be
by we kind of go into our head,we become numb, we have obvious
(37:26):
feelings of helplessness andguilt, right, especially if we
can't save somebody, which alsocan highlight in our brain
feelings of inadequacy andself-blame.
And so, anyway, the experiencesI have, I basically think that
they've taught me, you know, thesignificance of seeking help
and developing coping strategies, and I've learned that the
(37:51):
trauma doesn't just affect ourmental health.
It affects our relationships,our decision-making, our overall
well-being from day to day.
And so understanding theseeffects through doing this work
has helped me to advocate formental health resources and
support systems for firstresponders.
So I think it's important torecognize and acknowledge and
(38:13):
address that trauma is essentialfor both.
I'm sorry, addressing trauma isessential for both individual
and team resilience.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
I mean, if you're not there like someone mentioned
once on my podcast who is afirefighter is like if you're
not there because of your owntrauma, that affects the person
that's with you.
If we're going on a calltogether, you know it's the
importance of getting thattreatment is so essential
because you being that waydoesn't affect just you, it
affects your, you know your,your teammate, your whole team
(38:46):
and the department.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
Usually, when you're not there, not to mention
relationships outside of work.
Right right, your, yourchildren, your wife, your spouse
, whatever, whoever that personis, those relationships then
have an issue.
You know you might have anissue with that.
And then now you're coming backto work again.
It's sort of a big loop.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
That's why it's so important to take care of, you
know, underlying issues,underlying thoughts,
dysfunctional thinking patterns,underlying issues underlying
thoughts, dysfunctional thinkingpatterns, things like that,
right, and I think that that'swhat brings you to for me anyway
, to bring up MindForge TherapyGroup and it's your group, I'm
pretty sure and tell us a littlemore about that.
Speaker 3 (39:28):
Sure.
So I created MindForge Therapyout of necessity A few years ago
when I was really trying tofigure out what I wanted to do.
I was, you know, doing duringCOVID.
I was a nurse and I wentthrough that whole process
working as an RN, and that'swhere, again, I was seeing a lot
(39:50):
of the burnout and the fatigueright, we're having that across
the industries and so I wasdoing a lot of soul searching as
well.
I was trying to figure out whatdo I want to do, how do I want
to pivot, what do I love doing,what do I not love doing?
And this is about the time Iwent back and I got my master's
in social work and again duringthat time I was like, what do I
(40:12):
want to do with this?
And the answer kept coming backto me is that I want to work
with a population that I loveand that I know, and again,
that's my nurses, that's myhealthcare workers, that's, you
know, again, frontline firstresponders, that kind of thing.
And I really feel like there'ssuch a need there because, again
, not only do a lot of times weas first responders, we don't
(40:36):
want to seek out that assistance, but it's also harder when you
have somebody that may notunderstand what you're going
through, or like in the case Ibrought up earlier, where you
talk to somebody to help you andthen you end up making them
break down, and I mean againthis I've heard of this
happening to multiple clinicians, where those clinicians were
(40:57):
not prepared.
So that's the thing is.
I wanted to bring to thecommunity support that is
knowledgeable, that is comingfrom somebody who has done the
work, who's also not going tosit there and cry if you have to
(41:20):
talk about something difficultand also isn't going to judge
you because I again, I'vefirsthand experienced it and
gives you an area where you cancuss, you can scream, you can
cry.
You're not going to get judged,you can be all those things, do
all all those things.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
Right.
Speaker 3 (41:37):
And so that was the idea.
And also I had a lot of peoplewere telling me oh don't, you
know, don't take insurance,because there are a lot of
clinicians that are moving awayfrom taking insurance.
And I said I want to be asaccessible as possible.
So you know, I'm I'm on many,many, many insurances, so I take
lots of insurances and even ifI don't take an insurance of
(42:04):
somebody, you know that theydon't have kind of thing or I
don't.
I'm sorry, I don't take aninsurance somebody has.
I will work with them to makeit affordable because I feel
like it's so important to getthe help.
So that's what I'm here for,that's what MindForge was
created to do.
And again, I have a great dealof clients right now who are
(42:24):
nurses, firefighters, I've gotdentists, I've had FBI agents,
I've had Amazon executives, I'vehad all sorts of people high
stress, and you know the thingis, a lot of us are dealing with
a lot of the same issues and so, anyway, that's what MindForge
is here for.
I want to connect with thosepeople and I want them to come
(42:44):
in at least give it a try ifthey're.
You know, they never hadtherapy and I get a lot of
people like that.
They don't know what to expectand I just say come, try it out.
And I'm probably not going tobe the same as the next
therapist, right, because noneof us really are the same as the
next.
But I tend to be a little bitmore lighthearted.
I do enjoy humor as well and,again, you know, a lot of us
(43:07):
like our humor to cope withthings.
So I'm okay.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
You need your dark humor and you need your gallery.
Speaker 3 (43:15):
You need our dark humor, and so, anyway, if you
need some dark humor therapy,please come to MindForge and
have a nice time.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
How do we reach you at MindForge?
Speaker 3 (43:24):
So they can either call me.
They can go to my website,which is wwwmindforgetherapycom.
I actually have aself-scheduling link there where
they can go in and they can getall set up on that link.
They can call my business lineat 253-398-9565.
(43:45):
I also have a Facebook page forMindForge, which is always fun.
I post a lot of differentthings there I also share from
different local fire departmentsand Blue Hero Project and a lot
of different things there Ialso share from different local
fire departments and Blue HeroProject and a couple of the
other things that are importantin our community here.
And so, anyway, lots of ways,lots of ways to reach me.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
Well, I want to thank you for your time, Elizabeth.
I've got to wrap it up herebecause we went this one fast
and I really appreciate you.
I appreciate what we talkedabout and hope we get to talk
again very soon.
You come back on a podcast.
Speaker 3 (44:21):
I would love that.
Thank you so much for having me.
Thanks, Elizabeth.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
Well, that was episode 207.
Thank you, elizabeth Eklund.
Can't wait to show thosepictures on my website and
through the podcast, so pleasego and check it out, and I hope
you join us for episode 208,where we're going to talk about
Father's Day, and I hope you seeme then.
Speaker 1 (44:45):
Please like, subscribe and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful and, as a reminder, this
podcast is for informational,educational and entertainment
purposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(45:08):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
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