June 11, 2025 • 43 mins
Bruce Wasser shares his journey of losing his father at age 15 and how this profound loss shaped his decision to become a conscientious objector during the Vietnam War and ultimately led to his 33-year teaching career.
• Growing up in Seattle with his father Joe, a WWII veteran who instilled values of teamwork, equality, and community
• Devastating loss of his father to cancer just 14 months after diagnosis when Bruce was only 15
• Becoming an overachiever in school and sports as a response to grief
• Drawing the draft lottery number 90 during Vietnam and applying for conscientious objector status
• Finding surrogate father figures in coaches, professors, and public figures like Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
• Discovering his calling as a teacher where he could identify and connect with students who were hurting
• Experiencing what his wife calls "post-traumatic growth" – becoming more empathetic through trauma
• Suggestions for grieving on Father's Day: share grief with others, write letters to your father, find meaningful places
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action, where
strength meets strategy andcourage to help you move forward
.
Each week, your host, steveBisson, a therapist with over
two decades of experience in thefirst responder community,
brings you powerfulconversations about resilience,
growth and healing throughtrauma and grief.
Through authentic interviews,expert discussions and
(00:21):
real-world experiences, we divedeep into the heart of human
resilience.
We explore crucial topics liketrauma recovery, grief
processing, stress managementand emotional well-being.
This is Resilience Developmentin Action with Steve Bisson.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Hi and welcome to Episode 208.
If you haven't listened toepisode 207, it was with
Elizabeth Eklund.
I hope you enjoyed it.
I did enjoy it, and if youhaven't listened to it, go back
and listen to it.
But for episode 208, it will befor a Father's Day special with
Bruce Wasser.
Bruce Wasser is someone thatreached out to me and I thought
his story was great.
He has a memoir called 90.
(01:02):
He was a conscientious objectorduring Vietnam war.
He's a graduate with a highhonors from Princeton and he
served as a public schoolteacher for over three decades
where he created a statewidecurriculum that got honors that
stimulated empathy for those whoare victims of persecution.
Now retired, he lives with hiswife, who is also an author,
(01:24):
fern Schumer Chapman, inNorthern Illinois.
I hope you enjoyed the interview.
And here it is, getfreeai.
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(02:53):
to do so.
Well, hi everyone and welcome tothis important episode for
Father's Day.
It'll be episode 208.
I'm just happy to have someonewho's going to talk about his
book, his memoir called 90,available on Amazon and Barnes
Noble.
So please keep that in mind.
Bruce Wasser, welcome toResilience Development in Action
(03:17):
.
Very happy to have you here.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
Thank you very much for inviting me.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Well, the first thing I want to say and my audience
knows this more than anyone.
You can see the sign in theback Big Montreal Canadiens fan.
That's the first thing I wantto say, and my audience knows
this more than anyone.
You can see the sign in theback big montreal canadians fan.
That's the first thing thatbruce mentioned.
He's like oh my god, you knowhe really liked the canadians.
I'm like we're lifelong friends, me and bruce.
Now we're all set.
He's also a fan of the montrealcanadians, despite living in
what illinois?
correct so you're in illinois,you live in california and in
(03:45):
seattle, and no kraken, no kings, no black hawks.
So there you go, all you fans.
I might have made some enemieshere too, uh, but it's fine,
that's what hockey's all about.
But um, I bruce, you know, I, Igot to know you a little bit
before the we started theinterview and I read a little
bit about you, but my audiencedoesn't know about you.
So how about you introduceyourself and tell us about
(04:07):
yourself?
Speaker 3 (04:08):
I'd be happy to.
I am now 76 years old.
My early childhood life wasspent in Seattle, washington.
I was born in 1949.
Seattle was a wonderful city inwhich to grow.
Seattle was a wonderful city inwhich to grow.
(04:31):
We lived near my mother'smother, across the street from
the park, and there in Seattle Ihad grew a lifelong love of
athletics and bonded deeply withmy father.
My father was, I think,somewhat emblematic of a
generation of Americans.
He grew up during the GreatDepression, lost his own father,
coincidentally when he was buta teenager in Atlanta, georgia.
(04:57):
My father was, I think, anextraordinary athlete, a gifted
athlete, and to this day I thinkhe was the best natural athlete
I've ever seen.
Joe grew up in Atlanta.
World War II occurred and aftera very brief one-year stay at
Georgia Tech, dad became asoldier literally GI Joe
(05:22):
Stationed in the PacificNorthwest.
Literally, gi Joe stationed inthe Pacific Northwest.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
He met my father at a .
Speaker 3 (05:32):
USO.
He met my mother at a USO dance, married, and I was the first
of three children, this idyllicchildhood, growing up in a time
I now recognize, of great fear.
The 1950s in the United Stateshad McCarthyism.
There was a drive forconformity.
It was a time where assimilatedpeople we were Jewish and we
(05:55):
lived in a beautiful community,magnolia, in the city of Seattle
.
But it was a time of fear.
But it was a time of fear.
Dad was a civilian worker inFort Lawton, a United States
military post in Seattle, veryclose to our home.
(06:16):
He would come home at 4.30every day.
We would go to the park andplay.
He coached me in baseball, hewas my skipper and life seemed
to be on an ascendant track.
In 1963, dad received awonderful opportunity from the
(06:36):
General Services Administration,a promotion that moved us to
San Diego, quite a differentplace than Seattle, washington.
San Diego at that time.
Now, what we would call a majorleague city was not.
It was still a very quiet,small community, heavily a
military community, and dadworked downtown in Seattle, in
(06:58):
San Diego.
But within a couple of monthsyou've heard the expression the
wheels went off the bus.
That's what happened to ourfamily.
President John Kennedy wasassassinated in November of 1963
, literally eight weeks after hemoved to San Diego.
(07:18):
Shortly thereafter my father wasdiagnosed with cancer, a
disease that it was a rapid,devastating disease that took
this incredibly handsome, strong, physical man and ruined him.
Dad died in January of 1965.
(07:38):
So from diagnosis to death wasa very short period, just 14
months or so you'll say a year.
That was really quick, yeah,very, very quick.
At that time I think theresponse in our family, my
mother's response and myfather's was a combination of
(08:00):
denial and protection.
We knew dad was the word wassick.
Dad was ill, but he had at onepoint of remission where he was
getting what they would callbetter, but we were shielded
from it To this day.
I remember the last time I sawmy father.
(08:21):
He looked in the hospital, helooked awful.
His arm was terribly distended,with swelling Difficult to look
at.
One eye was almost closed,weeping, and I asked dad to
change the channel on thetelevision.
Of all things, my lastcommunication with my father was
(08:46):
something so egregiouslyself-centered, but I was a kid,
I was a sophomore in high schooland that's when dad passed away
.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Well, first of all, self-centered.
I mean, that's what we do atthat age and unfortunately we
all know that we don't know thelast time we're going to say
something to someone.
My audience knows and I'm goingto cut the corners.
It wasn't my dad when I was 12.
I lost my best friend and weplayed football and soccer
together and my last words to mymy friend was it's about
(09:19):
fucking time because he had, hehad borrowed my pads because he
hurt his arm.
And then he gave him back to meand I said it's about fucking
time because he had, he hadborrowed my pads because he hurt
his arm.
And then he gave him back to meand I said it's about fucking
time.
And he died that weekend in afire.
You know, when you talk aboutself-centered or whatever, I
don't think we know any betterand sometimes we don't realize
that this may be our lastcommunication with whoever, um,
(09:41):
and you know, with our fathers,with father's day.
You know, and I'm sure you talkabout this in your memoir, but
I think that what the hardestpart is to we never know when
it's the last time you're goingto speak to your dad.
My dad was that my dad gotdiagnosed with cancer in october
and died in december, andthat's how quickly he went, oh
(10:02):
my.
So the last time I saw him Isaid I'll see you next weekend.
He said yes, and that was mylast words to him.
You never know these things andthe only thing I want to, I know
I want to get back to theseriousness of what we're
talking about, but I just wantto mention for you young people
out there a skipper is what youcall a manager, but we call them
(10:22):
a skipper because we're that's,we're older, so that's what we
call their manager, but we callthem a skipper because we're
older, so that's what we calltheir manager.
Just wanted to mention that.
I just wrote it down and halfthe people won't even know what
the hell is a skipper, but justwanted to mention that.
But I'd love to hear more aboutwhat happened after that passed
away, because you were so young.
I mean, there's gotta be someconsequences when that happens.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
Unfortunately, that's a very kind question that you
asked, and I'll do my best toanswer it.
I think my father's death was acatastrophe for our family.
He was the center of ouruniverse.
We all orbited around him.
He was a remarkably gregariousman, atypical for his time.
(11:08):
Here's a quick story In the1960s, if a man called another
man on the phone, the questionwould be what do you want?
You wouldn't be calling to talk,and my father would call to
talk.
We would call that networkingor this is a very
female-oriented just to talk.
(11:28):
We all careened out of orbit,all of us.
I think it was devastating formy mother, a beautiful, bright,
driven woman, and she lost herJoe when she was very young.
I was shattered by my father'sdeath.
(11:50):
There's no question about it,and like many young people, I
think my first response wasself-blame.
What did I do to bring about myfather's death?
What wrong did I commit?
I must have done somethingwrong.
That dad would be taken from me, and so I think this is, to me,
(12:10):
makes a lot of sense.
A lot of kids, teenagers, arebewildered by this event, over
which we have no control.
I was not prepared at all forthe extraordinary wreckage that
this death caused in my family.
All of us grieved in differentways.
(12:32):
I think I hurled myself intoschool.
I went to a terrific publichigh school in San Diego,
california, claremont.
A prototypical middle-classhigh school that had an
extraordinary curriculum.
I look back now and I rememberI taught for 35 years.
(12:57):
I look back and think this is aremarkable public school.
Mandarin Chinese was taughtthere.
Professors from our In the 60syes, wow, professors from our
community college came andtaught when I was a senior,
taught the calculus andpolitical science.
(13:18):
But this was not an affluentcommunity, it was a working
class to middle class community.
In San Diego.
I threw myself into school.
I became a classic overachiever, thinking that somehow, if I
pushed myself, hurled myself ina life of activity and academic
(13:43):
excellence in high school, thatI could compensate for the death
of my father.
And I did.
I was the first straight-Astudent in my high school's
history.
I was not a gifted athlete, butI absorbed my father's profound
lessons about almost thesacredness of teamwork, the
(14:06):
essence of community building.
So I became the first mostinspirational player in my
school's history, twice inbasketball I was going to ask
you which sport?
Yeah, basketball, I mean.
I was literally the 15th playeron a 14-player team.
(14:26):
I learned and this is I dealwith this in my memoir 90, a
book that deals withconscientious objection but also
deals with my reaction to myfather's death I now know that
my father I saw my father talkto our high school basketball
(14:48):
coach in the fall, in the winterof 1964.
I think this must have beenperhaps six weeks before dad
died.
Well, I had no idea what dadwas talking to coach Richard
Eiler about, but I'm sure it wastake care of my kid, take care
of my boy, yeah, and coach Eilerdid.
(15:09):
He kept me on the team.
I was horrible, I was aterrible basketball player, but
I was a great teammate.
I was a great teammate and Iloved coach Eiler.
I loved our ballplayers.
I was lucky to be on two very,very good ballclubs championship
ballclubs and I saw in CoachEiler the first of father
(15:35):
figures.
One other note I'd like to makeis I think I have had one of the
consequences of my dad's death.
It's almost a lifelong need totry to make order out of things,
sometimes even utterlyuncontrollable.
So when I taught, I was knownas the manilophile man, always
(15:57):
had everything perfectlyorganized.
I like timetables.
I try the best I can to keeporder.
Now why?
I'm not compulsive, but orderis important to me.
Why?
Because my life went out oforder.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
I was going to say it's a trauma response, but
that's the therapist without anyquestion at all now.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
Now I'm an old guy, I'm 70 and I can look back and
understand this, but I wouldwonder why that?
People probably say why is thisguy so organized?
Why is everything so?
I also realized that I had, asa consequence of my father's
death, the need to be a goodhuman being, the need to honor
(16:45):
the values that my fatherinstilled in me In athletics,
but that would seep out intoother aspects of my life.
That would seep out into otheraspects of my life.
Although he was a non-practicingJew, he believed in the Judaic
principles of community, oftolerance, of dignity.
(17:07):
The need is, he would say, ofof absolute equality.
He would.
He would say it this way son,they put their pants on one leg
at a time, just like you.
You ain't no better thananybody else, but they put their
pants on one leg at a time,just like you.
You ain't no better thananybody else, but they ain't no
better than you.
You know his grammar was awful,but his precepts were profound
and I've tried to live by them.
So that would be the need to bea good human being was a direct
(17:34):
consequence of dad's death.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Well, it's kind of interesting because I know this
is part of your book.
I know you may want to talkabout something else, but I want
to go to something here, if youdon't mind is that being a good
human being sometimes is toobject the things that we think
are wrong, and it takes a lot ofcourage to do so, and I know
that in your book you address it.
(17:56):
But can I hear more about yourconscientious objection and how
maybe the role of your dadplayed in that and how his
influence led you to be more ofa conscientious objector?
Speaker 3 (18:09):
Well it's, I think, an ironic and almost paradoxical
consequence.
I think an ironic and almostparadoxical consequence.
I never had the chance, likemany young men and women, to
kind of butt heads with a parenton a very serious decision,
never had a chance to run upagainst my dad.
(18:29):
My dad was a veteran.
He was not a pacifist.
Dad played football.
He was not anything like aconscientious objector.
I think my father's death putme on a path of trying to find
out what the best person I couldbe.
(18:52):
And at that time, as I wascoming of age, in the late 1960s
, the United States was involvedin a disastrous war halfway
around the globe, in Vietnam.
Over time I became an opponentof that war.
But even before I became afull-throated opponent to that
(19:17):
war, I was deeply shaken by thedeath of Dr Martin Luther King
Jr and Robert Kennedy Sr.
Their two assassinations,within two months of each other,
in the late spring and earlysummer of 1968, had profound
(19:40):
reverberations nationally and,of course, personally, I had
mentioned just a bit ago that Ihad searched for father
surrogates.
Well, those can be people thatwe know and they can be people
that we don't know.
I never met Dr King, I nevermet Robert Kennedy, but they
(20:00):
were father figures to me, yeah,represented.
They were about the same age.
They represented somethingproud and decent and good and
hopeful with which I couldidentify.
Well, after Robert Kennedy'sassassination, I made
(20:21):
application for a conscientiousobjector Now your audience, that
means a man.
In this case it was men whoobject to all war.
My thoughts were stillrelatively unformed.
What I was really objecting towas violence.
Now, this was politicalviolence and assassination, but
(20:44):
you can see how nuanced it was,also a reaction to the violence
that took my father.
Cancer was a violent disease.
It ravaged dad, and so I sawthe parallels between the evils
of racism and political violencein the United States to the
evils of cancer that ravaged dad.
(21:05):
I became a CO At that time as Iexplained and CO stands for
conscientious objector.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
For those who are wondering, correct, sorry, I
like to explain over-explain?
Speaker 3 (21:18):
Oh no, I don't think that's over-explaining.
That makes complete sense to me.
I did not have to proveanything to a local draft board.
The draft board, a local draftboard, would be the agency that
would determine the authenticityof my claim.
That would determine theauthenticity of my claim.
I instead took what was called astudent deferment.
(21:40):
Defer means to put off, and atthat time, in the late 1960s, if
you were going to college youcould receive a deferment, a
pass.
You're actually passing theresponsibilities on to those men
who could not go to college,and that's a fact that still
(22:03):
continues to haunt me.
So, even though I madeapplication to be a
conscientious objector, I knewthat if I continued to go to
college and I went to Princetonat the time that I would be
deferred from any kind ofmilitary involvement until the
summer of 1971.
Would the war be over by then?
(22:25):
In that case my applicationwould be meaningless.
I could go on and pursue mylife.
But as the war ground on andour troop and there were
insufficient number of troopswho were volunteering to fight
in this war it became obviousthere would be a need to cons
(22:49):
from that draft was a lottery.
I drew the unlucky number 90,aligned with my birth date, and
thus my application forconscientious objection would be
put to the test.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
What does that?
Speaker 3 (23:07):
mean.
It meant that in the summer of1971, I would have to prove to
my local draft board that I wasindeed sincere.
My mother by this time,frightened that she would lose,
another man had interfered byasking our local congressman to
(23:30):
intercede on my behalf.
It was a completelyunderstandable but unwise
decision.
And as I developed by this timea good relationship with the
secretary of the local draftboard and she informed me that
this kind of meddling wasterrible on two levels.
(23:52):
One, it was direct interferencewith the board trying to put
pressure on the board, andsecond, it made it look like I
couldn't take care of my ownbusiness, that my mom was doing
something for me that I shouldhave done myself.
My mom, out of love and out ofanguish, told me that my father
(24:13):
would have been ashamed of me.
Anguish told me that my fatherwould have been ashamed of me,
that he would have repudiated me, that he would have been aghast
that I was making anapplication for conscientious
objection.
She begged me to have a doctorwrite a phony excuse.
(24:40):
The current president of theUnited States is a shameful
example of a man who used aphony excuse to avoid
responsibility for any kind ofdecision.
I would never leave the UnitedStates.
I was profoundly, and still am,deeply, a deeply patriotic
person.
It sometimes can be confoundingfor people to hear people on
the left say that they deeplylove their country.
(25:01):
Right now we almost associatepatriotism with being on the
right, and it's never been thatway for me.
I felt great respect and, oh,incredible anguish for those men
and their loved ones who leftthe country, many of whom went
(25:22):
to Canada and established a goodand decent life there.
But that wasn't for me.
I realized, growing up in SanDiego, a conservative military
town, growing up in San Diego, aconservative military town,
that I would not be granted, ifI were not granted, co status.
The likelihood is I would go tojail, and that terrified my mom
(25:45):
, it ruined my life.
So not only was I a shame, wasI a shame to my beloved deceased
father, but I was ashamed thatI could be, that I would end up
going to jail.
So I had to call on the memoryof my father and ask myself many
(26:06):
times over what would my fatherhave wanted me to do, me to do?
What would Joe have advised meto do in this terrible ordeal?
And at that time, living oncampus, I would hear in the dorm
(26:31):
.
Sometimes I would hear otheryoung men say terrible things
about their father, sometimeseven wishing that.
I would hear them say I wish myfather were dead, where I hate
my old man or stuff, and I itcaused.
It made me wince.
I was still coming of age, Iwas still becoming a man and I
would say to myself boy, I wish,if you feel that way about your
dad, I wish we could tradeplaces.
You know your father, that yourfather passed away and I would
(26:57):
still have dad right.
But I realized my father would.
One of his phrases was show thefolks what you got, son.
Show them what you got.
And I realized what I have isnot athletic skill, what I have
is not a terribly overwhelmingintellect, but I've got a good
(27:20):
heart.
I have a love for humanity andI had to let that show.
And I realized that, eventhough my father probably would
have argued terribly against mydecision, I think my father
still would have loved me, atleast now as I have grown up to
(27:42):
be a complete adult.
That's what I feel.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Right, but how did you feel when you were younger?
I'm sure that that was a littletougher at that time Because
you know, like you mentioned somany things here, you know being
able to.
You know, when I hear peoplewish people away, I always tell
people you gotta remember,you're gonna regret that
(28:07):
eventually, um, you know, um, wetalk about grief, we talk about
trauma, we talk about fathers.
For me, that's something that Ihear sometimes and I'm like
look, you don't want to wishanyone that number one, but
number two.
You know, when you you do allthis, I mean it's always
interesting to think about.
Like you know, your dad wouldstill love you, but I'm sure
(28:30):
that there was a lot of conflictat the time, without question,
without question.
You know, and I think that whenyou think about the Vietnam War,
having those thoughts and yes,I mean patriotism has been lost
and to me, patriotism hasnothing to do with the left or
the right, it has to do withloving your country or not.
(28:50):
Having been an American forabout four years now, but having
lived here for 26 years, I'mproud to be an American, just
like I'm proud from being fromCanada, don't get me wrong, but
at the end of the day, it's alsohard to measure patriotism.
Is it conscientious objectors?
Is it people who are getting onthose planes and those
(29:11):
helicopters and going to Vietnam?
What's a real good American?
I think that's.
You know, that's that's.
Patriotism has always beenfluid in my opinion and it's
hard to really figure it out.
And when you had a dad who isin the military, like you said,
it's even more difficult becauseyou know forgotten country and
sometimes that gets confusedwith being able to also make
(29:33):
your own decisions.
I think that's.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
I think that's correct.
I was granted conscientiousobjector status, worked for two
years at the Palo Alto VeteransAdministration Hospital and
during that time I changed mylife's axis from wanting to be
an attorney to being a teacher.
And there I did.
I taught in a working classcommunity in California for
(30:00):
almost 33 years the same schooldistrict and there I realized I
was very much my father's son.
I had a huge personality in theclassroom.
I was a beloved teacher and Irecognized that my father, the
(30:23):
anguish that I felt over myfather's death, led me to become
, I think, a more compassionateand empathetic human being, and
my wife, fern Schumer Chapman, awonderful author, has said that
what I experienced, she thinks,is what's called post-traumatic
(30:45):
growth.
She said she would never wishthe death of a beloved father on
any adolescent, but she said ithad unintended, wonderful
consequences.
It made me a teacher who almosthad a sixth sense of kids who
(31:07):
were hurting in my classroom.
I could pick them out and theycame to me like metal filings,
to a magnet.
I tried to love my studentswith all of my heart and to
guide them, as a history teacherand as a teacher of English, to
a greater appreciation of theirnation, and so I think it would
(31:32):
be almost as if I were a treestruck by lightning.
I had to grow stronger aroundthe scar that was my father's
death, and I did.
I think it made me.
My dad's death made me a morecomplete, whole human being, one
(31:56):
who was ever all the morecommitted to the ideals of a
nation, passionately committedto the youth of the nation.
That's why I became a teacherand hopeful, always hopeful that
the future would bringsomething better than the past.
(32:16):
That the future would bringsomething better than the past.
Well, that's very powerful,thank you.
I don't think I thought all ofthose things while they were
happening.
I can't claim that kind offoresight, but I do know that
the large personality I showedin the classroom, my great
(32:42):
belief in the need to be part ofa community, the joy I had in
living life, all of these thingsare the gifts that my beloved
father, joe, gave me.
Didn't realize it during theterrible maelstrom of
(33:04):
adolescence, when I wassuffering, but as I became an
adult now, certainly in myretirement from teaching, I can
see it now I still officiatesports.
See it now, I still officiatesports.
And whenever I step on abaseball field or a softball
diamond.
I always think of my father andthe joy he had in athletics and
(33:31):
what athletics could do for ayoung person's life.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
Well, this brings me to something that we, off the
air, talked about.
Father's Day is coming up andyou talk about umping on
Father's Day.
Think about your dad.
Can you tell me more about that?
And also, kind of like there'ssome people who are listening
right now who may have just losttheir father, who may not even
(33:56):
know how to deal with all thattheir father, who may not even
know how to deal with all that.
So I'm looking for a couple ofideas for you how to deal with
and process that loss, becauseit was powerful what you said
about your dad.
I know the role my dad plays inme every single day hindsight,
not knowledge at the time but Idefinitely know all the stuff
that I've become is thanks to mydad.
(34:16):
So I want to hear more abouthow would you help someone go
through Father's Day.
I know on Father's Day, yousaid that's one of the things
you like to do, but is thereother stuff that you recommend
that's such a nice question, anda sensitive one, I think, for
those of you in your audiencewho are grieving.
Speaker 3 (34:39):
I think grief is best when shared with somebody close
to you, and so if there is aperson perhaps a spouse, a love
person, a deep friend it mightbe on the anniversary, special
(34:59):
anniversaries, father's Day itmight be good to seek these
people out to talk with them.
I am always have been abeliever in the therapy of
writing.
Write your father a letter,seal it.
Write your father a letter.
You don't have to mail it.
Perhaps there's a place youcould go after you've written
(35:23):
this letter and read it toyourself.
Maybe it's by a lakefront, itcould be a park, it might be
even an auto showroom.
Go someplace where you can readthe letter out loud.
Find some place that bringsyour father back to you.
(35:44):
Think about your father'spresence in your life.
Try not to idealize your father, but to see him for what he is
and what he was a whole humanbeing, flawed but loving.
If that's the presence, ifthat's the grief, I think the
(36:07):
greatest sadness those of us whoare grieving may have is that
we may not find a place to shareour sadness.
And so, if your readers have aperson with whom they can share.
That, I think, would be themost crucial thing to do.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
I think that sharing is so important.
I tell people that grievingdoesn't look one way, but all
the advice that you just gave isvery important.
I think that there is no rightway to grieve.
Well, if you do, you have onehell of a book on your head.
Follow up to 90, like here'show we grieve the loss of our
(36:48):
dad.
I mean, I would love to havethat book on hand, but there's
no such thing?
Speaker 3 (36:52):
No, there's no, I don't think there's any magic.
I have two wonderful sons whonow are, in their own right,
fathers on their own, andthey're.
Both are fathers too, andthey're.
One has two sons, the other hasone son and a beautiful
(37:14):
daughter.
And I think, if it's possibleto see continuities in life, to
rejoice in the blessings thatwe've had, I realize now that I
only had my father for 15 years.
I can't count the number ofyoung men who have not had that
(37:36):
Either.
Their dads are absent, theirdads were indifferent, their
dads were cruel.
That's a lot of people.
And so sure I suffered ahorrible loss.
But now, at the age of 76, Ilook back and I had 15 years of
(37:57):
a loving guiding hand, and thatwas plenty enough.
And despair.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
I think you make excellent points when you say
that there's people who havedads who are not present.
Dads who are present are veryinvasive or are physically there
but not emotionally there.
There are so many things to besaid about that.
The other thing I want tomention to everyone and we joked
around about grief earlier,about the book, but the truth is
(38:25):
is that this year I will freefather's day differently than I
did last year and it will bedifferent than the year before,
and I don't know what it's goingto look like.
Maybe there'll be tears thisyear, maybe they won won't.
Maybe there'll be good moments,maybe they won't.
But the other part, too, is,when we talk about grieving,
don't look for the one way togrieve the loss of your dad,
(38:45):
particularly on Father's Day.
Just let yourself be, becauseeven though, like you said, we
were lucky enough to have ourdads either for 15 years, I had
my dad for about 41 years, youknow.
I think that the dads ingeneral, they do want our best.
Sometimes they don't know howto do that, but most dads want
(39:06):
the best for their kids, as youdo for your own sons.
So don't judge your grief,don't look at it as being a
certain way, and I want to throwthat out too.
Speaker 3 (39:15):
Sure, certain way and I want to throw that out too
Sure, I think sometimes men findit very difficult to access
their emotions.
We've been acculturated.
That genuine feeling is somehoweffeminate or not becoming of a
(39:36):
man.
If there are members in youraudience who are uncomfortable
with tears, perhaps they canfind and they wish to shed them.
Find a private place.
Nobody has to see you, there'sno report card on how well
you're grieving.
I also think that it'simportant to try to celebrate
(39:58):
Father's Day every day, haveyour father be with you all the
time, find, even in your dailylife, maybe once or twice a day,
you can find a place whereyou'd say, boy, dad would have
liked this or dad would haveenjoyed sharing this with me,
and I think that would be areally nice way for your
(40:21):
audience to keep dad alive.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
I was looking behind me.
If you go on YouTube, I waslooking behind me.
I have a couple of pictures inmy office this is my studio but
they're all with the outside ofthe studio so I can't really
show them, but my dad's presenteverywhere in my office, he's
present at home and I think thatthat's important to think about
that presence being there.
As we wrap up here because timegoes by fast, we talked about
(40:48):
your memoir 90.
Yes, we can get there at Amazon.
We can get that at Barnes andNobles, as you said.
Is there anything else that youthink we should know about
getting your memoir, because Ithink this would be an awesome
read for a whole lot of people.
Speaker 3 (41:00):
Oh, I so appreciate that.
I think the book is a lovelyFather's Day idea.
It's about a young man as me.
It's about my life, and dad'spresence in the book is
everywhere it asks the booktries to come to grips with.
What kind of a son am I?
Am I honoring my father'smemory?
(41:24):
And so I think that book.
Of course it deals with a youngman trying to become a
conscientious objector againstan unpopular war, but it also
deals with how a young man foundfather figures elsewhere in his
life.
I was so fortunate atuniversity to have professors
who were incredibly important tome.
(41:47):
That search for a dad islifelong, and it goes both ways.
Other people may come and seeyou as a father figure.
Many of my students did.
I had the wonderful fortune ofbeing a father and trying to
convey to my sons what theessence of their grandfather,
(42:11):
whom they could never see whathe was like, what he was like.
So I think the book may be avery helpful kind of a
therapeutic read for those ofyour readers who are suffering
grief.
They'll look back,interestingly enough, in time a
different time period of courseand see how a kid became a man,
(42:34):
how his grief ripened him intobeing a more productive human
being.
Speaker 2 (42:40):
Well, I mean, I can't speak for your dad, obviously,
but you're one hell of a mansurviving this and going through
the conscientious objectionteaching young kids for over 30
years To me.
When you're doing all of that,you know you can't.
You can't regret your lifechoices and I truly appreciate
you, bruce.
(43:00):
Bruce Wassard, go on Amazon,warrens and Nobles, go get the
book 90, a memoir based on thisyoung man who looks at least my
age now at this point.
So I don't know if that stillmakes us young men or not.
But, bruce, from the bottom ofmy heart, thank you so much for
the interview.
I so appreciate the invitation.
(43:22):
Thank you and join us forepisode 209.
And I thank you for your time,guys.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
Please like, subscribe and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful and, as a reminder, this
podcast is for informational,educational and entertainment
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If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(43:53):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action, where
strength meets strategy andcourage to help you move forward
.
Each week, your host, steveBisson, a therapist with over
two decades of experience in thefirst responder community,
brings you powerfulconversations about resilience,
growth and healing throughtrauma and grief.
Through authentic interviews,expert discussions and
(00:21):
real-world experiences, we divedeep into the heart of human
resilience.
We explore crucial topics liketrauma recovery, grief
processing, stress managementand emotional well-being.
This is Resilience Developmentin Action with Steve Bisson.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Hi and welcome to Episode 208.
If you haven't listened toepisode 207, it was with
Elizabeth Eklund.
I hope you enjoyed it.
I did enjoy it, and if youhaven't listened to it, go back
and listen to it.
But for episode 208, it will befor a Father's Day special with
Bruce Wasser.
Bruce Wasser is someone thatreached out to me and I thought
his story was great.
He has a memoir called 90.
(01:02):
He was a conscientious objectorduring Vietnam war.
He's a graduate with a highhonors from Princeton and he
served as a public schoolteacher for over three decades
where he created a statewidecurriculum that got honors that
stimulated empathy for those whoare victims of persecution.
Now retired, he lives with hiswife, who is also an author,
(01:24):
fern Schumer Chapman, inNorthern Illinois.
I hope you enjoyed the interview.
And here it is, getfreeai.
You heard me talk about it.
I'm going to keep on talkingabout it because I love it.
I've had about a year and ahalf 18 months practice with it
and I still enjoy it.
I'm going to keep on talkingabout it because I love it.
I've had about a year and ahalf 18 months practice with it
(01:47):
and I still enjoy it, and itsaves me time and it saves me
energy.
Freedai takes your note, makes atranscript of what you're
talking with a client.
Just press record and it doeseither transcript, it does a
subjective and an objective,with a letter, if needed, for
your client and for whoevermight need it.
So for $99 a month, it saves meso much time that it's
(02:10):
worthwhile.
And if you do it for a wholeyear, guess what?
You get 10% off.
More importantly, this is whatyou got to remember, because you
are my audience that listens toresilience, development and
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If you do listen to this andyou want to use freeai, put in
the code Steve50 in the promocode area Steve50, and you will
(02:32):
get $50 off in addition toeverything we just talked about.
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Use that to your advantage.
Freeai, a great service.
Go to getfreeai and you willget one of the best services
that will save you time andmoney and I highly encourage you
(02:53):
to do so.
Well, hi everyone and welcome tothis important episode for
Father's Day.
It'll be episode 208.
I'm just happy to have someonewho's going to talk about his
book, his memoir called 90,available on Amazon and Barnes
Noble.
So please keep that in mind.
Bruce Wasser, welcome toResilience Development in Action
(03:17):
.
Very happy to have you here.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
Thank you very much for inviting me.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Well, the first thing I want to say and my audience
knows this more than anyone.
You can see the sign in theback Big Montreal Canadiens fan.
That's the first thing I wantto say, and my audience knows
this more than anyone.
You can see the sign in theback big montreal canadians fan.
That's the first thing thatbruce mentioned.
He's like oh my god, you knowhe really liked the canadians.
I'm like we're lifelong friends, me and bruce.
Now we're all set.
He's also a fan of the montrealcanadians, despite living in
what illinois?
correct so you're in illinois,you live in california and in
(03:45):
seattle, and no kraken, no kings, no black hawks.
So there you go, all you fans.
I might have made some enemieshere too, uh, but it's fine,
that's what hockey's all about.
But um, I bruce, you know, I, Igot to know you a little bit
before the we started theinterview and I read a little
bit about you, but my audiencedoesn't know about you.
So how about you introduceyourself and tell us about
(04:07):
yourself?
Speaker 3 (04:08):
I'd be happy to.
I am now 76 years old.
My early childhood life wasspent in Seattle, washington.
I was born in 1949.
Seattle was a wonderful city inwhich to grow.
Seattle was a wonderful city inwhich to grow.
(04:31):
We lived near my mother'smother, across the street from
the park, and there in Seattle Ihad grew a lifelong love of
athletics and bonded deeply withmy father.
My father was, I think,somewhat emblematic of a
generation of Americans.
He grew up during the GreatDepression, lost his own father,
coincidentally when he was buta teenager in Atlanta, georgia.
(04:57):
My father was, I think, anextraordinary athlete, a gifted
athlete, and to this day I thinkhe was the best natural athlete
I've ever seen.
Joe grew up in Atlanta.
World War II occurred and aftera very brief one-year stay at
Georgia Tech, dad became asoldier literally GI Joe
(05:22):
Stationed in the PacificNorthwest.
Literally, gi Joe stationed inthe Pacific Northwest.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
He met my father at a .
Speaker 3 (05:32):
USO.
He met my mother at a USO dance, married, and I was the first
of three children, this idyllicchildhood, growing up in a time
I now recognize, of great fear.
The 1950s in the United Stateshad McCarthyism.
There was a drive forconformity.
It was a time where assimilatedpeople we were Jewish and we
(05:55):
lived in a beautiful community,magnolia, in the city of Seattle
.
But it was a time of fear.
But it was a time of fear.
Dad was a civilian worker inFort Lawton, a United States
military post in Seattle, veryclose to our home.
(06:16):
He would come home at 4.30every day.
We would go to the park andplay.
He coached me in baseball, hewas my skipper and life seemed
to be on an ascendant track.
In 1963, dad received awonderful opportunity from the
(06:36):
General Services Administration,a promotion that moved us to
San Diego, quite a differentplace than Seattle, washington.
San Diego at that time.
Now, what we would call a majorleague city was not.
It was still a very quiet,small community, heavily a
military community, and dadworked downtown in Seattle, in
(06:58):
San Diego.
But within a couple of monthsyou've heard the expression the
wheels went off the bus.
That's what happened to ourfamily.
President John Kennedy wasassassinated in November of 1963
, literally eight weeks after hemoved to San Diego.
(07:18):
Shortly thereafter my father wasdiagnosed with cancer, a
disease that it was a rapid,devastating disease that took
this incredibly handsome, strong, physical man and ruined him.
Dad died in January of 1965.
(07:38):
So from diagnosis to death wasa very short period, just 14
months or so you'll say a year.
That was really quick, yeah,very, very quick.
At that time I think theresponse in our family, my
mother's response and myfather's was a combination of
(08:00):
denial and protection.
We knew dad was the word wassick.
Dad was ill, but he had at onepoint of remission where he was
getting what they would callbetter, but we were shielded
from it To this day.
I remember the last time I sawmy father.
(08:21):
He looked in the hospital, helooked awful.
His arm was terribly distended,with swelling Difficult to look
at.
One eye was almost closed,weeping, and I asked dad to
change the channel on thetelevision.
Of all things, my lastcommunication with my father was
(08:46):
something so egregiouslyself-centered, but I was a kid,
I was a sophomore in high schooland that's when dad passed away
.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Well, first of all, self-centered.
I mean, that's what we do atthat age and unfortunately we
all know that we don't know thelast time we're going to say
something to someone.
My audience knows and I'm goingto cut the corners.
It wasn't my dad when I was 12.
I lost my best friend and weplayed football and soccer
together and my last words to mymy friend was it's about
(09:19):
fucking time because he had, hehad borrowed my pads because he
hurt his arm.
And then he gave him back to meand I said it's about fucking
time because he had, he hadborrowed my pads because he hurt
his arm.
And then he gave him back to meand I said it's about fucking
time.
And he died that weekend in afire.
You know, when you talk aboutself-centered or whatever, I
don't think we know any betterand sometimes we don't realize
that this may be our lastcommunication with whoever, um,
(09:41):
and you know, with our fathers,with father's day.
You know, and I'm sure you talkabout this in your memoir, but
I think that what the hardestpart is to we never know when
it's the last time you're goingto speak to your dad.
My dad was that my dad gotdiagnosed with cancer in october
and died in december, andthat's how quickly he went, oh
(10:02):
my.
So the last time I saw him Isaid I'll see you next weekend.
He said yes, and that was mylast words to him.
You never know these things andthe only thing I want to, I know
I want to get back to theseriousness of what we're
talking about, but I just wantto mention for you young people
out there a skipper is what youcall a manager, but we call them
(10:22):
a skipper because we're that's,we're older, so that's what we
call their manager, but we callthem a skipper because we're
older, so that's what we calltheir manager.
Just wanted to mention that.
I just wrote it down and halfthe people won't even know what
the hell is a skipper, but justwanted to mention that.
But I'd love to hear more aboutwhat happened after that passed
away, because you were so young.
I mean, there's gotta be someconsequences when that happens.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
Unfortunately, that's a very kind question that you
asked, and I'll do my best toanswer it.
I think my father's death was acatastrophe for our family.
He was the center of ouruniverse.
We all orbited around him.
He was a remarkably gregariousman, atypical for his time.
(11:08):
Here's a quick story In the1960s, if a man called another
man on the phone, the questionwould be what do you want?
You wouldn't be calling to talk,and my father would call to
talk.
We would call that networkingor this is a very
female-oriented just to talk.
(11:28):
We all careened out of orbit,all of us.
I think it was devastating formy mother, a beautiful, bright,
driven woman, and she lost herJoe when she was very young.
I was shattered by my father'sdeath.
(11:50):
There's no question about it,and like many young people, I
think my first response wasself-blame.
What did I do to bring about myfather's death?
What wrong did I commit?
I must have done somethingwrong.
That dad would be taken from me, and so I think this is, to me,
(12:10):
makes a lot of sense.
A lot of kids, teenagers, arebewildered by this event, over
which we have no control.
I was not prepared at all forthe extraordinary wreckage that
this death caused in my family.
All of us grieved in differentways.
(12:32):
I think I hurled myself intoschool.
I went to a terrific publichigh school in San Diego,
california, claremont.
A prototypical middle-classhigh school that had an
extraordinary curriculum.
I look back now and I rememberI taught for 35 years.
(12:57):
I look back and think this is aremarkable public school.
Mandarin Chinese was taughtthere.
Professors from our In the 60syes, wow, professors from our
community college came andtaught when I was a senior,
taught the calculus andpolitical science.
(13:18):
But this was not an affluentcommunity, it was a working
class to middle class community.
In San Diego.
I threw myself into school.
I became a classic overachiever, thinking that somehow, if I
pushed myself, hurled myself ina life of activity and academic
(13:43):
excellence in high school, thatI could compensate for the death
of my father.
And I did.
I was the first straight-Astudent in my high school's
history.
I was not a gifted athlete, butI absorbed my father's profound
lessons about almost thesacredness of teamwork, the
(14:06):
essence of community building.
So I became the first mostinspirational player in my
school's history, twice inbasketball I was going to ask
you which sport?
Yeah, basketball, I mean.
I was literally the 15th playeron a 14-player team.
(14:26):
I learned and this is I dealwith this in my memoir 90, a
book that deals withconscientious objection but also
deals with my reaction to myfather's death I now know that
my father I saw my father talkto our high school basketball
(14:48):
coach in the fall, in the winterof 1964.
I think this must have beenperhaps six weeks before dad
died.
Well, I had no idea what dadwas talking to coach Richard
Eiler about, but I'm sure it wastake care of my kid, take care
of my boy, yeah, and coach Eilerdid.
(15:09):
He kept me on the team.
I was horrible, I was aterrible basketball player, but
I was a great teammate.
I was a great teammate and Iloved coach Eiler.
I loved our ballplayers.
I was lucky to be on two very,very good ballclubs championship
ballclubs and I saw in CoachEiler the first of father
(15:35):
figures.
One other note I'd like to makeis I think I have had one of the
consequences of my dad's death.
It's almost a lifelong need totry to make order out of things,
sometimes even utterlyuncontrollable.
So when I taught, I was knownas the manilophile man, always
(15:57):
had everything perfectlyorganized.
I like timetables.
I try the best I can to keeporder.
Now why?
I'm not compulsive, but orderis important to me.
Why?
Because my life went out oforder.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
I was going to say it's a trauma response, but
that's the therapist without anyquestion at all now.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
Now I'm an old guy, I'm 70 and I can look back and
understand this, but I wouldwonder why that?
People probably say why is thisguy so organized?
Why is everything so?
I also realized that I had, asa consequence of my father's
death, the need to be a goodhuman being, the need to honor
(16:45):
the values that my fatherinstilled in me In athletics,
but that would seep out intoother aspects of my life.
That would seep out into otheraspects of my life.
Although he was a non-practicingJew, he believed in the Judaic
principles of community, oftolerance, of dignity.
(17:07):
The need is, he would say, ofof absolute equality.
He would.
He would say it this way son,they put their pants on one leg
at a time, just like you.
You ain't no better thananybody else, but they put their
pants on one leg at a time,just like you.
You ain't no better thananybody else, but they ain't no
better than you.
You know his grammar was awful,but his precepts were profound
and I've tried to live by them.
So that would be the need to bea good human being was a direct
(17:34):
consequence of dad's death.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Well, it's kind of interesting because I know this
is part of your book.
I know you may want to talkabout something else, but I want
to go to something here, if youdon't mind is that being a good
human being sometimes is toobject the things that we think
are wrong, and it takes a lot ofcourage to do so, and I know
that in your book you address it.
(17:56):
But can I hear more about yourconscientious objection and how
maybe the role of your dadplayed in that and how his
influence led you to be more ofa conscientious objector?
Speaker 3 (18:09):
Well it's, I think, an ironic and almost paradoxical
consequence.
I think an ironic and almostparadoxical consequence.
I never had the chance, likemany young men and women, to
kind of butt heads with a parenton a very serious decision,
never had a chance to run upagainst my dad.
(18:29):
My dad was a veteran.
He was not a pacifist.
Dad played football.
He was not anything like aconscientious objector.
I think my father's death putme on a path of trying to find
out what the best person I couldbe.
(18:52):
And at that time, as I wascoming of age, in the late 1960s
, the United States was involvedin a disastrous war halfway
around the globe, in Vietnam.
Over time I became an opponentof that war.
But even before I became afull-throated opponent to that
(19:17):
war, I was deeply shaken by thedeath of Dr Martin Luther King
Jr and Robert Kennedy Sr.
Their two assassinations,within two months of each other,
in the late spring and earlysummer of 1968, had profound
(19:40):
reverberations nationally and,of course, personally, I had
mentioned just a bit ago that Ihad searched for father
surrogates.
Well, those can be people thatwe know and they can be people
that we don't know.
I never met Dr King, I nevermet Robert Kennedy, but they
(20:00):
were father figures to me, yeah,represented.
They were about the same age.
They represented somethingproud and decent and good and
hopeful with which I couldidentify.
Well, after Robert Kennedy'sassassination, I made
(20:21):
application for a conscientiousobjector Now your audience, that
means a man.
In this case it was men whoobject to all war.
My thoughts were stillrelatively unformed.
What I was really objecting towas violence.
Now, this was politicalviolence and assassination, but
(20:44):
you can see how nuanced it was,also a reaction to the violence
that took my father.
Cancer was a violent disease.
It ravaged dad, and so I sawthe parallels between the evils
of racism and political violencein the United States to the
evils of cancer that ravaged dad.
(21:05):
I became a CO At that time as Iexplained and CO stands for
conscientious objector.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
For those who are wondering, correct, sorry, I
like to explain over-explain?
Speaker 3 (21:18):
Oh no, I don't think that's over-explaining.
That makes complete sense to me.
I did not have to proveanything to a local draft board.
The draft board, a local draftboard, would be the agency that
would determine the authenticityof my claim.
That would determine theauthenticity of my claim.
I instead took what was called astudent deferment.
(21:40):
Defer means to put off, and atthat time, in the late 1960s, if
you were going to college youcould receive a deferment, a
pass.
You're actually passing theresponsibilities on to those men
who could not go to college,and that's a fact that still
(22:03):
continues to haunt me.
So, even though I madeapplication to be a
conscientious objector, I knewthat if I continued to go to
college and I went to Princetonat the time that I would be
deferred from any kind ofmilitary involvement until the
summer of 1971.
Would the war be over by then?
(22:25):
In that case my applicationwould be meaningless.
I could go on and pursue mylife.
But as the war ground on andour troop and there were
insufficient number of troopswho were volunteering to fight
in this war it became obviousthere would be a need to cons
(22:49):
from that draft was a lottery.
I drew the unlucky number 90,aligned with my birth date, and
thus my application forconscientious objection would be
put to the test.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
What does that?
Speaker 3 (23:07):
mean.
It meant that in the summer of1971, I would have to prove to
my local draft board that I wasindeed sincere.
My mother by this time,frightened that she would lose,
another man had interfered byasking our local congressman to
(23:30):
intercede on my behalf.
It was a completelyunderstandable but unwise
decision.
And as I developed by this timea good relationship with the
secretary of the local draftboard and she informed me that
this kind of meddling wasterrible on two levels.
(23:52):
One, it was direct interferencewith the board trying to put
pressure on the board, andsecond, it made it look like I
couldn't take care of my ownbusiness, that my mom was doing
something for me that I shouldhave done myself.
My mom, out of love and out ofanguish, told me that my father
(24:13):
would have been ashamed of me.
Anguish told me that my fatherwould have been ashamed of me,
that he would have repudiated me, that he would have been aghast
that I was making anapplication for conscientious
objection.
She begged me to have a doctorwrite a phony excuse.
(24:40):
The current president of theUnited States is a shameful
example of a man who used aphony excuse to avoid
responsibility for any kind ofdecision.
I would never leave the UnitedStates.
I was profoundly, and still am,deeply, a deeply patriotic
person.
It sometimes can be confoundingfor people to hear people on
the left say that they deeplylove their country.
(25:01):
Right now we almost associatepatriotism with being on the
right, and it's never been thatway for me.
I felt great respect and, oh,incredible anguish for those men
and their loved ones who leftthe country, many of whom went
(25:22):
to Canada and established a goodand decent life there.
But that wasn't for me.
I realized, growing up in SanDiego, a conservative military
town, growing up in San Diego, aconservative military town,
that I would not be granted, ifI were not granted, co status.
The likelihood is I would go tojail, and that terrified my mom
(25:45):
, it ruined my life.
So not only was I a shame, wasI a shame to my beloved deceased
father, but I was ashamed thatI could be, that I would end up
going to jail.
So I had to call on the memoryof my father and ask myself many
(26:06):
times over what would my fatherhave wanted me to do, me to do?
What would Joe have advised meto do in this terrible ordeal?
And at that time, living oncampus, I would hear in the dorm
(26:31):
.
Sometimes I would hear otheryoung men say terrible things
about their father, sometimeseven wishing that.
I would hear them say I wish myfather were dead, where I hate
my old man or stuff, and I itcaused.
It made me wince.
I was still coming of age, Iwas still becoming a man and I
would say to myself boy, I wish,if you feel that way about your
dad, I wish we could tradeplaces.
You know your father, that yourfather passed away and I would
(26:57):
still have dad right.
But I realized my father would.
One of his phrases was show thefolks what you got, son.
Show them what you got.
And I realized what I have isnot athletic skill, what I have
is not a terribly overwhelmingintellect, but I've got a good
(27:20):
heart.
I have a love for humanity andI had to let that show.
And I realized that, eventhough my father probably would
have argued terribly against mydecision, I think my father
still would have loved me, atleast now as I have grown up to
(27:42):
be a complete adult.
That's what I feel.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Right, but how did you feel when you were younger?
I'm sure that that was a littletougher at that time Because
you know, like you mentioned somany things here, you know being
able to.
You know, when I hear peoplewish people away, I always tell
people you gotta remember,you're gonna regret that
(28:07):
eventually, um, you know, um, wetalk about grief, we talk about
trauma, we talk about fathers.
For me, that's something that Ihear sometimes and I'm like
look, you don't want to wishanyone that number one, but
number two.
You know, when you you do allthis, I mean it's always
interesting to think about.
Like you know, your dad wouldstill love you, but I'm sure
(28:30):
that there was a lot of conflictat the time, without question,
without question.
You know, and I think that whenyou think about the Vietnam War,
having those thoughts and yes,I mean patriotism has been lost
and to me, patriotism hasnothing to do with the left or
the right, it has to do withloving your country or not.
(28:50):
Having been an American forabout four years now, but having
lived here for 26 years, I'mproud to be an American, just
like I'm proud from being fromCanada, don't get me wrong, but
at the end of the day, it's alsohard to measure patriotism.
Is it conscientious objectors?
Is it people who are getting onthose planes and those
(29:11):
helicopters and going to Vietnam?
What's a real good American?
I think that's.
You know, that's that's.
Patriotism has always beenfluid in my opinion and it's
hard to really figure it out.
And when you had a dad who isin the military, like you said,
it's even more difficult becauseyou know forgotten country and
sometimes that gets confusedwith being able to also make
(29:33):
your own decisions.
I think that's.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
I think that's correct.
I was granted conscientiousobjector status, worked for two
years at the Palo Alto VeteransAdministration Hospital and
during that time I changed mylife's axis from wanting to be
an attorney to being a teacher.
And there I did.
I taught in a working classcommunity in California for
(30:00):
almost 33 years the same schooldistrict and there I realized I
was very much my father's son.
I had a huge personality in theclassroom.
I was a beloved teacher and Irecognized that my father, the
(30:23):
anguish that I felt over myfather's death, led me to become
, I think, a more compassionateand empathetic human being, and
my wife, fern Schumer Chapman, awonderful author, has said that
what I experienced, she thinks,is what's called post-traumatic
(30:45):
growth.
She said she would never wishthe death of a beloved father on
any adolescent, but she said ithad unintended, wonderful
consequences.
It made me a teacher who almosthad a sixth sense of kids who
(31:07):
were hurting in my classroom.
I could pick them out and theycame to me like metal filings,
to a magnet.
I tried to love my studentswith all of my heart and to
guide them, as a history teacherand as a teacher of English, to
a greater appreciation of theirnation, and so I think it would
(31:32):
be almost as if I were a treestruck by lightning.
I had to grow stronger aroundthe scar that was my father's
death, and I did.
I think it made me.
My dad's death made me a morecomplete, whole human being, one
(31:56):
who was ever all the morecommitted to the ideals of a
nation, passionately committedto the youth of the nation.
That's why I became a teacherand hopeful, always hopeful that
the future would bringsomething better than the past.
(32:16):
That the future would bringsomething better than the past.
Well, that's very powerful,thank you.
I don't think I thought all ofthose things while they were
happening.
I can't claim that kind offoresight, but I do know that
the large personality I showedin the classroom, my great
(32:42):
belief in the need to be part ofa community, the joy I had in
living life, all of these thingsare the gifts that my beloved
father, joe, gave me.
Didn't realize it during theterrible maelstrom of
(33:04):
adolescence, when I wassuffering, but as I became an
adult now, certainly in myretirement from teaching, I can
see it now I still officiatesports.
See it now, I still officiatesports.
And whenever I step on abaseball field or a softball
diamond.
I always think of my father andthe joy he had in athletics and
(33:31):
what athletics could do for ayoung person's life.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
Well, this brings me to something that we, off the
air, talked about.
Father's Day is coming up andyou talk about umping on
Father's Day.
Think about your dad.
Can you tell me more about that?
And also, kind of like there'ssome people who are listening
right now who may have just losttheir father, who may not even
(33:56):
know how to deal with all thattheir father, who may not even
know how to deal with all that.
So I'm looking for a couple ofideas for you how to deal with
and process that loss, becauseit was powerful what you said
about your dad.
I know the role my dad plays inme every single day hindsight,
not knowledge at the time but Idefinitely know all the stuff
that I've become is thanks to mydad.
(34:16):
So I want to hear more abouthow would you help someone go
through Father's Day.
I know on Father's Day, yousaid that's one of the things
you like to do, but is thereother stuff that you recommend
that's such a nice question, anda sensitive one, I think, for
those of you in your audiencewho are grieving.
Speaker 3 (34:39):
I think grief is best when shared with somebody close
to you, and so if there is aperson perhaps a spouse, a love
person, a deep friend it mightbe on the anniversary, special
(34:59):
anniversaries, father's Day itmight be good to seek these
people out to talk with them.
I am always have been abeliever in the therapy of
writing.
Write your father a letter,seal it.
Write your father a letter.
You don't have to mail it.
Perhaps there's a place youcould go after you've written
(35:23):
this letter and read it toyourself.
Maybe it's by a lakefront, itcould be a park, it might be
even an auto showroom.
Go someplace where you can readthe letter out loud.
Find some place that bringsyour father back to you.
(35:44):
Think about your father'spresence in your life.
Try not to idealize your father, but to see him for what he is
and what he was a whole humanbeing, flawed but loving.
If that's the presence, ifthat's the grief, I think the
(36:07):
greatest sadness those of us whoare grieving may have is that
we may not find a place to shareour sadness.
And so, if your readers have aperson with whom they can share.
That, I think, would be themost crucial thing to do.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
I think that sharing is so important.
I tell people that grievingdoesn't look one way, but all
the advice that you just gave isvery important.
I think that there is no rightway to grieve.
Well, if you do, you have onehell of a book on your head.
Follow up to 90, like here'show we grieve the loss of our
(36:48):
dad.
I mean, I would love to havethat book on hand, but there's
no such thing?
Speaker 3 (36:52):
No, there's no, I don't think there's any magic.
I have two wonderful sons whonow are, in their own right,
fathers on their own, andthey're.
Both are fathers too, andthey're.
One has two sons, the other hasone son and a beautiful
(37:14):
daughter.
And I think, if it's possibleto see continuities in life, to
rejoice in the blessings thatwe've had, I realize now that I
only had my father for 15 years.
I can't count the number ofyoung men who have not had that
(37:36):
Either.
Their dads are absent, theirdads were indifferent, their
dads were cruel.
That's a lot of people.
And so sure I suffered ahorrible loss.
But now, at the age of 76, Ilook back and I had 15 years of
(37:57):
a loving guiding hand, and thatwas plenty enough.
And despair.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
I think you make excellent points when you say
that there's people who havedads who are not present.
Dads who are present are veryinvasive or are physically there
but not emotionally there.
There are so many things to besaid about that.
The other thing I want tomention to everyone and we joked
around about grief earlier,about the book, but the truth is
(38:25):
is that this year I will freefather's day differently than I
did last year and it will bedifferent than the year before,
and I don't know what it's goingto look like.
Maybe there'll be tears thisyear, maybe they won won't.
Maybe there'll be good moments,maybe they won't.
But the other part, too, is,when we talk about grieving,
don't look for the one way togrieve the loss of your dad,
(38:45):
particularly on Father's Day.
Just let yourself be, becauseeven though, like you said, we
were lucky enough to have ourdads either for 15 years, I had
my dad for about 41 years, youknow.
I think that the dads ingeneral, they do want our best.
Sometimes they don't know howto do that, but most dads want
(39:06):
the best for their kids, as youdo for your own sons.
So don't judge your grief,don't look at it as being a
certain way, and I want to throwthat out too.
Speaker 3 (39:15):
Sure, certain way and I want to throw that out too
Sure, I think sometimes men findit very difficult to access
their emotions.
We've been acculturated.
That genuine feeling is somehoweffeminate or not becoming of a
(39:36):
man.
If there are members in youraudience who are uncomfortable
with tears, perhaps they canfind and they wish to shed them.
Find a private place.
Nobody has to see you, there'sno report card on how well
you're grieving.
I also think that it'simportant to try to celebrate
(39:58):
Father's Day every day, haveyour father be with you all the
time, find, even in your dailylife, maybe once or twice a day,
you can find a place whereyou'd say, boy, dad would have
liked this or dad would haveenjoyed sharing this with me,
and I think that would be areally nice way for your
(40:21):
audience to keep dad alive.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
I was looking behind me.
If you go on YouTube, I waslooking behind me.
I have a couple of pictures inmy office this is my studio but
they're all with the outside ofthe studio so I can't really
show them, but my dad's presenteverywhere in my office, he's
present at home and I think thatthat's important to think about
that presence being there.
As we wrap up here because timegoes by fast, we talked about
(40:48):
your memoir 90.
Yes, we can get there at Amazon.
We can get that at Barnes andNobles, as you said.
Is there anything else that youthink we should know about
getting your memoir, because Ithink this would be an awesome
read for a whole lot of people.
Speaker 3 (41:00):
Oh, I so appreciate that.
I think the book is a lovelyFather's Day idea.
It's about a young man as me.
It's about my life, and dad'spresence in the book is
everywhere it asks the booktries to come to grips with.
What kind of a son am I?
Am I honoring my father'smemory?
(41:24):
And so I think that book.
Of course it deals with a youngman trying to become a
conscientious objector againstan unpopular war, but it also
deals with how a young man foundfather figures elsewhere in his
life.
I was so fortunate atuniversity to have professors
who were incredibly important tome.
(41:47):
That search for a dad islifelong, and it goes both ways.
Other people may come and seeyou as a father figure.
Many of my students did.
I had the wonderful fortune ofbeing a father and trying to
convey to my sons what theessence of their grandfather,
(42:11):
whom they could never see whathe was like, what he was like.
So I think the book may be avery helpful kind of a
therapeutic read for those ofyour readers who are suffering
grief.
They'll look back,interestingly enough, in time a
different time period of courseand see how a kid became a man,
(42:34):
how his grief ripened him intobeing a more productive human
being.
Speaker 2 (42:40):
Well, I mean, I can't speak for your dad, obviously,
but you're one hell of a mansurviving this and going through
the conscientious objectionteaching young kids for over 30
years To me.
When you're doing all of that,you know you can't.
You can't regret your lifechoices and I truly appreciate
you, bruce.
(43:00):
Bruce Wassard, go on Amazon,warrens and Nobles, go get the
book 90, a memoir based on thisyoung man who looks at least my
age now at this point.
So I don't know if that stillmakes us young men or not.
But, bruce, from the bottom ofmy heart, thank you so much for
the interview.
I so appreciate the invitation.
(43:22):
Thank you and join us forepisode 209.
And I thank you for your time,guys.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
Please like, subscribe and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful and, as a reminder, this
podcast is for informational,educational and entertainment
purposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(43:53):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
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