June 16, 2025 • 45 mins
Strength isn't the absence of weakness—it's how we transform our challenges into growth. In this riveting conversation with leadership coach and author Becky Schmooke, we explore stoic philosophy as a misunderstood yet powerful tool for navigating life's inevitable obstacles.
Becky shares her personal journey of using stoicism to overcome a twenty-year battle with bulimia, developing the STOA framework (Success, Targets, Obstacles/Opportunities, Action steps) that now helps everyone from executives to NFL players and first responders navigate high-pressure situations. Far from the emotionless stereotype, stoicism emerges as a practice of emotional awareness without emotional control.
"Leadership is a lifestyle, not a job title," Becky emphasizes, challenging conventional hierarchies with her SAFE framework that builds genuine capability rather than superficial "show muscles." Her approach transforms organizations from having "a team and a leader" to fostering "a team of leaders"—a critical distinction for environments where split-second decisions matter.
The Japanese art of kintsugi—repairing broken pottery with gold—becomes a powerful metaphor for resilience throughout our discussion. When we acknowledge our breaks rather than hiding them, we become stronger precisely where we were once vulnerable. This principle applies powerfully to trauma recovery, offering a path beyond mere survival to genuine transformation.
Whether you're leading a team, recovering from trauma, or simply trying to navigate life's complexities with more grace, Becky's practical frameworks provide immediate, actionable insights. Her husband, a fire captain, uses these same principles during emergency calls, demonstrating their real-world effectiveness under pressure.
Ready to choose the handle that holds? Join us for this enlightening conversation about stoicism, leadership, and the art of transforming obstacles into opportunities for growth. Find Becky's book "Choose the Handle that Holds" here and connect with her mindfulness retreats at www.beckyschmooke.com.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action, where
strength meets strategy andcourage to help you move forward
.
Each week, your host, steveBisson, a therapist with over
two decades of experience in thefirst responder community,
brings you powerfulconversations about resilience,
growth and healing throughtrauma and grief.
Through authentic interviews,expert discussions and
(00:21):
real-world experiences, we divedeep into the heart of human
resilience.
We explore crucial topics liketrauma recovery, grief
processing, stress managementand emotional well-being.
This is Resilience Developmentin Action with Steve Bisson.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Hi and welcome to episode 209.
If you haven't listened toepisode 208, please go and
listen.
Bruce Wasser was a great guest,talked about Father's Day,
talked about Vietnam, doc beinga conscientious objector and his
memoir.
So please go and listen to that.
But for episode 209, we'regoing to be with Becky Schmookie
.
Becky is someone that hasreached out to me and she's a
leadership coach, author andkeynote speaker.
(01:03):
She also wrote a book calledChoose the Handle that Holds a
guide to living, leading andowning the moments that matter.
She talks about stoicphilosophy, she talks about how
her personal story empowered herand she does something called
Becky's Mindful Kitchen, wherefarm life needs leadership
training through retreats, campsand hands-on learning.
(01:24):
She has worked with differentpeople, from executives to NFL
players, and she does enjoywrangling her baby goats, and
she reminds us that leadershipis not something you do, it's
something that you are.
And here's the interview.
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Well, hi everyone and welcometo episode 209.
I'm so happy to have someonewho, unfortunately, already
(03:09):
insulted me.
She called me sir, I'm Steve,so it's already starting bad.
But all joking aside, wait,hold on.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
That is Okay, go ahead, introduce me, and then
we're going to circle back tothat one.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Okay, I'll tell you right now for me, sir is my dad.
I don't.
I don't do like for me toconnect with people I would.
I don't like using ma'am sir ifI call you sir or ma'am, and I
worked in a jail.
So when I worked in the jailand they called you sir and I
asked one of the guys, they saidwhy you call me sir?
He's like well, I can't callyou asshole, can I?
And I'm like good point.
So that's why whenever I hearsir, I don't hear sir, um you
(03:48):
hear asshole yeah, okay, that'swhat I hear um, so that's why,
but becky snow.
Welcome to resiliencedevelopment in action I thank
you for having me.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
You know what's great steve is a podcast I did a
couple months ago.
We talked about this exactconcept, about the fact because
I do call people, sir, andthat's really an important part
of how I communicate.
I love doing it and so I willdo my best not to, and I will
sub an asshole instead, ifthat's better.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
If you can call me asshole, I appreciate that
actually.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
I can do that, but yeah, no, thank you for having
me.
And that's actually a great,great story and a good reminder
that everyone does have theirown reaction to things and we
don't know it.
And so it might be very weirdif someone, like you know, does
kind of bristles at the sir whenyou think you're being kind of
polite and they don't enjoy that.
So that's a good reminder.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
But when you have a big country kind of polite and
they don't enjoy that, so that's.
But when we have a big countrylike the U S, you know, I think
that you know, coming toNortheast around here, calling
people sir is not actuallyreally well seen.
You go in the, you know, in theSouth and the Midwest, sir is a
common theme and it's okay andthere's nothing wrong with that,
it's respectful, and so I thinkthat for me it's just how I
(05:06):
grew up being a Montrealer whereI call them.
When I was in elementary school, I call my teachers by their
first name.
How insulting is that, wow.
Yeah, that's how we grew up.
It was normal.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
But that's something I think it is smart to always
keep in the back of your mind,like when you travel, like
understand the customs.
I know my husband's afirefighter and he's talked
about.
He knows certain areas of thecity.
You know if you havepopulations from, you know
there's sometimes like adifferent ethnicity and knowing
what is the cultural norm isreally helpful in connecting and
(05:38):
not accidentally doingsomething that's going to create
that disconnect that's going toultimately make your job harder
.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
I think that sometimes it is all cultural,
sometimes it's also generationaland sometimes it's, like even
to me, sexist or based on gender.
It's not ladylike or somebullshit like that.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
Yeah, and I enjoy challenging those assumptions
and those cultural norms attimes, and I have the ability to
do so.
That's one thing I'vediscovered is, if you go into
something with a good intentionand it isn't to disturb people,
it isn't to be an asshole, thenit is usually better received.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
So not trying to be a disruptor, just kind of just
being me, being a founder of theStoic Edge Consulting.
There's a lot of stoicism inwhat you're saying, so I really
appreciate it.
But now I don't want to jumpinto stoicism quite yet, but I'd
like to jump into hey, who'sBecky Smoke?
I don't know who she is.
They don't know who you are.
Tell us about you.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
Well with you.
Tell us about you.
Well, I am, so I do.
I'm the founder of Stoic EdgeConsulting, and that part.
That business focuses onleadership consulting, coaching,
speaking, writing, all thosefun things and, from again, the
perspective of stoicism, whichwe will not get into just yet,
and really it's, though, aboutredefining what it means to lead
(07:03):
.
I do think we have leadershipwrong and we've been taught it
the wrong way and we continue totalk about it in a way that
leaves out some really importantthings.
So that's what I do with thatbusiness.
And then I also am founder of abusiness called Becky's Mindful
Kitchen, and that is a fun one.
I have an on-site location whereI host summer camps for kids.
You can kind of ground inleadership, but we use a lot of
(07:25):
cooking, so I do a lot ofleadership retreats here too,
and I'm in iOS, so smack dab inthe middle we have goats and
chickens and timber and archeryrange, so I teach archery as a.
We teach leadership and stuffand kind of bushcraft survival
stuff.
I have kids out here duringfire camp chopping their own
wood and starting fires withknives and ferro rods.
It's a lot of fun.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Lost stress on that day.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
I could not do that business without his help, for
sure.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
And then you didn't even talk about your book Choose
the Handle that Holds A Guideto Living Leading Owning Moments
that Matter, which is guide toliving leading owning moments
that matter, which is also yourbook, if I read that correctly.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
That is yep, that just came out this spring, and
so that is, that's a book thatit's okay.
Here's been my issue, Steve,and I wanna know if you have
this too.
There's so many great booksthat I would read and I just I
love everything inside of it,and then I'd end it and I'd be
like okay, like, but how?
Like, how do I take this stuffand put it into action?
(08:32):
And so for my book, I wanted tonot lose track of the
importance of the action steps,and that's why, like, I
literally have a chapter that'stitled but how, how?
At the end of each section ofit, with these actionable like,
right now, you don't have towait till the end.
Here's how you can implementthings, Because I think we do a
(08:54):
lot of talking and we don't doenough action, and I understand
the irony that I'm going to betalking for the next half hour
but.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
No, but I think it's also like you know.
You thought you know like itmay be a good place to go.
Start Like.
I want to note two things.
Stoicism is something that meand I have a business partner in
another venture that we talkabout constantly.
It's part of our work.
Actually we don't have a book,but we definitely put it in
place in our work.
We work mostly with firstresponders there.
(09:23):
Place in our work.
We work mostly with firstresponders there, and what I
absolutely adore is you practicewhat you preach, and what I
mean by that is we're nottalking about your past, we're
not talking about where you'reheading.
You told me exactly what'sgoing on right now and that's
part of the stoicism practice.
It's not about not havingemotions but staying in the
moment, and I think that that'spart of what I think is
misunderstood by stoicism.
(09:44):
And I think that that's part ofwhat I think is misunderstood
by stoicism and again, notpicking on anyone, but the red
step child of philosophy.
And yet it's so important and Ilove stoicism I mean, can you
help me like kind of demystifythat concept because people
don't get it?
I think people don't get itpersonally absolutely it's very
(10:05):
misunderstood.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
I feel bad for I equivocate it to like um, any
person named karen these days,like it's really like unfairly,
like judged um just because oftheir name.
So and this happens becausethere's the little s stoic and
then the big s stoic.
So there is the word stoic andwe think of, you know the no
emotion stiff upper lip, youknow, queen of england type of a
(10:26):
stoic, and we think of the noemotions, stiff upper lip, queen
of England type of stoic.
And then the philosophy, thoughthat's that big as stoic and
it's very different the way Idescribe it is for me.
I have emotions, but myemotions don't have me Not being
controlled by your emotions andtruly understanding what's in
your control and what isn't, andthen being able to take any
(10:49):
obstacle that comes your way,everything that comes your way,
and turning it to your benefitand not from, like this toxic
positivity approach of, like youknow, find the silver lining,
the good in everything, kind ofcringe approach to it.
But really, looking at, okay,this is what I've got, how can I
use this?
How can I use this to make mebetter, me stronger, those
(11:12):
around me better?
And that's where, again,leadership comes in.
But really I think we spendmost of our energy on the things
that we can't control and notenough on the things we can.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
I agree, and I'm not going to name the book, but I'm
listening to a book that Iactually like and there a lot of
it is like he talks about stoicapproaches.
He doesn't say stoic, but it'sdefinitely where he's going.
But he doesn't tell anyone howto apply it, he just talks about
it, and one of the things thatpeople like what's the easiest
way to approach stoicism.
So one of the things you got tolearn to do is observe.
(11:45):
You're not judging it, you'renot trying to make sense of it.
You're observing what'shappening.
And well, that's easy.
I'm like no, it's not, becauseyou're thinking about how it
made you feel and you're nolonger observing as soon as you
think about how it felt.
Observing is looking for thingsas facts, not as what you felt
like.
So calling me an asshole isjust calling me an asshole.
(12:08):
She called me an asshole.
That's affecting me.
Why is it affecting me?
Why did she come Now?
Stoicism is to explore thosethings and not to react to it,
but rather observe it.
I don't know if that's a goodway to conceptualize for people.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
Yeah, well, it's curiosity right.
Like it sparks that curiosity,that idea and I apologize, I
jumped in, interrupted you a bitthere, but you know that I know
that idea of you know thethings that disturb us and it's
a paraphrase of one of the stokequotes is things that disturb
us, you know, are not the thingsthemselves but our judgment of
them.
And so if you can likeunderstand, like, oh, like, I
(12:42):
just got really triggered, likewhat happened there, you know
emotions are not bad, but youknow there's no and there's no
such.
I don't think anger is badnecessarily where it turns.
You know, quote unquote bad iswhen we allow it to dictate what
we do, when we allow it when wescoot over and, like you, drive
no, that's when things can getin trouble.
(13:03):
But being able to use anger asa you know, an entry point to a
deeper understanding of yourself, yeah, that's awesome.
You know an entry point to adeeper understanding of yourself
, yeah, that's awesome.
And there's a concept I createdcalled a word check and it's in
my book and, to brieflydescribe it, it hits exactly
what you're saying.
Like so often, we spell checkright, we check the spelling,
(13:24):
but we don't always check thewords and I kind of started
recognizing.
Like, oh my gosh, we too oftenare reading between the lines
and we're really bad at it andwe're responding to the stories,
not what's actually being said,you know.
So we tell ourselves and thenwe also speak in judgment terms
instead of facts and it's nothelpful to tell somebody they're
(13:45):
being lazy.
That's a judgment, because whatI think is lazy might be very
different than what you think islazy, right, and it doesn't
help them.
So it's like, okay, well, whatare they doing?
Like what's actually happeningthat you're calling lazy?
And then same with you know, ifsomeone says, you know, like
did you unload the dishwasher?
All you have to do is say yesor no, but rarely doing just
(14:09):
anything with the dishwasher.
Keep it at yes or no, right,like we hear the story.
We also need to think thatthere's judgment and we respond
to that and we waste so muchtime and so many conflicts
happen because of that situationand not taking the time to slow
down and check the story.
You know, check your words orcheck.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
I love that and I think that you know.
There's another one that I wantto bring up a little later on,
which is Stoa, that you alsobring up in your book.
Can't wait to be able to fullyread.
Again, being truthful with myaudience, haven't read it yet,
just being truthful, but I'malready, like Becky, a lot and a
lot of the practice, like youknow.
I'll show you how, when you'rea bullshit artist, you're not
(14:51):
able to practice what you say.
Factually.
We were running late thismorning I'm just being factual
about it but there was nojudgment, there was no anger,
there was no frustration.
We're gonna start late in thisstory.
Nothing I can do about it,nothing becky can do about it.
That's it and learningcommunicate.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
Sorry to interrupt and lose my voice at the same
time, but, like in those moments, right yeah, to just be able to
just communicate to you.
Hey, I'm going to be a littlebit late, and that was in my
control, I could do that.
And what you do with that notin my control, you know.
And it's just, I thinksometimes we make things bigger
(15:29):
than they have to be.
And so, being like, okay,you're a human being, you're
going to understand this andthat's what I tell people, I'm
like, okay, you really just tellme Like I can, but we don't, we
undervalue the little things.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
That can make a big difference.
Communicating the fact you knowlike, and again, truthful.
I know you listen, but a lot ofpeople who may mean you to this
.
I'm just telling you, like itis, type of guy Like Becky went
out of her way to find my cellphone number to text me and say,
look, I'm running a little late.
She didn't have access to that.
(16:03):
She had to look it up and finda way that that was under her
control to do so.
She didn't go.
Oh my God, nothing I can do.
I under her control to do so.
She didn't go.
Oh my God, nothing I can do.
I'm not trying anything, I'mjust backing up.
She also made the effort and ifshe wouldn't have found it,
shit happens.
But ultimately, I think that'ssomething like we even had.
You know, getting this set up.
There was a couple of things weneeded to do.
(16:24):
I wasn't upset.
I'm like, hey, how are you?
This is what I need.
And you went.
Oh sure, I didn't know itwasn't done.
And the story I wasn't upset,she wasn't upset, it was what it
was.
When you practice stoicismproperly, that doesn't mean
you're not emotional.
That doesn't mean you haveemotions.
It's just like you can dealwith your shit a lot better in
my opinion.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
Yeah, you don't waste time.
I'm going to have no voice.
This is great, because I havemultiple interviews today.
I can't wait.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
It's going to be a good one.
I get the first one.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
It's downhill from here, but no, it does fall into
this idea of again, over andover, what's in our control and
if you focus on that, it doesmake things easier.
But I'm going to be honest, italso makes things a lot harder
(17:09):
and that's why when stoicism sothe first chapter of stoicism in
the book is, you know, titledlike.
I hated stoicism, and I didwhen it was first introduced to
me.
I hated it.
My husband's the one who firstintroduced it and I was not Wait
.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
A firefighter in stoicism.
Speaker 3 (17:26):
Mm-hmm, yeah, no, he introduced me to stoicism,
philosophy I want to meet himnow that was he one of his
majors.
Oh, I think, oh, I think it's.
No, it was not.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
I think that I think that the first responder world
would benefit a hundred percentof stoicism, because they try to
control things you can'tcontrol when they're outside of
their work environment and I'mlike, no, you can't fucking do
that at home.
But anyway, sorry, Iinterrupted.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
Yeah, no, we talk about all the time.
So he loves Stoicism and heintroduced me to Buddhism.
He's fantastic.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
If he ever wants to come on to the podcast with you
or just him, just let him know.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
I don't know, I'm so fascinated already.
It's really, it has been reallyfun.
And so already it's really, ithas been really fun.
And so writing this entire bookyou know we talked about it was
, you know he had a hand inevery bit, like I'd bounce ideas
off him.
He, you know like it's reallyfun to be able to have that
collaboration and but again,like looking, so he introduced
(18:25):
it to me and I hated it.
I was terrified of it because itdoes ask you and you know, not
forces, but you're going to haveto look in the mirror, and at
the time I was not willing to dothat, and so the way I handled
that fear was to be an absolutebutthead about it all and I just
, like, did everything I couldfor a long time to tear apart
(18:47):
the philosophy, which inhindsight, I'm very grateful for
, because when you try to takesomething apart and disprove
something as not being useful,you end up really discovering
what it is.
And that way, and so I, you knowI was a complete asshole.
And then now I've written abook about it and I speak about
it and I teach it, and he hasnot once, he has never, ever,
(19:08):
like come back around and saidlike I told you so or called me
out on the fact that I hated itinitially, and for me it was
because I wasn't willing to, Iwasn't ready to do what I was
asking, because I was stilldeeply embattled with my eating
disorder, with bulimia, and Iwas like, oh boy, nope, not
(19:28):
today, not today.
And it took another couple ofyears, but I got there.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Well, a couple of things I want to mention, since
you've been introduced toBuddhism.
But we, resist, persists, and Ithink that that's a good stoic
and a Buddhist thought process.
So if you're really obsessingabout proving someone wrong,
then what are you resisting?
Speaker 3 (19:52):
Oh yeah, and you're going to keep it going.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
number one, Number two I'm happy that it helped you
with your eating disorder.
You want to talk a little bitabout it here and how it helped
you, Because I would love tohear the story.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
So this will bring us to that framework of STOA.
So that's how.
I created that when, about fiveyears ago, covid hits and my
husband, so he's on twodifferent fire departments.
He's on shift about 100 hours aweek, so he's full-time fire
captain in one city and thenhe's three-quarters time
assistant fire chief in anotherand he's helped like take that
(20:30):
department from volunteer to nowa hybrid department.
So he spends a lot of time at afirehouse and so COVID hits and
we have a daughter who has anundiagnosed lung condition.
There's a lot of uncertainty.
In the beginning we did notknow much and what we did know
was we did not want her gettingsick and I'm a type one diabetic
and again we didn't know howthat would work.
(20:50):
So you know face nails anduncertainty.
I realized I got to be ashealthy as possible and I know,
and I knew that being bulimicwas not helping me at all in
that goal of staying as healthyas possible.
I was like crap, now's the time.
And so I was like I got to doit and in the beginning of that
recovery and this is 20 years Istruggled with bulimia and 20
(21:14):
years of trying to recover butnever getting there it was just
white knuckling.
And you can only white knucklesomething so long, right, like,
eventually, like you know and Ido Brazilian jiu-jitsu I got
decent grips, but even my grips,you know your grips are going
to fail on you at some point.
And so this concept, thisframework of STOA, was created
(21:36):
throughout that first couple ofmonths of that recovery of me
realizing I got to create aprocess and what it stands for.
So it's an acronym, because ifyou're in a leadership field,
you have to have acronyms.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
If you work in coaching or in mental health,
you got to have acronyms.
If you work in coaching or inmental health, you got to have
acronyms, you got to do it.
Speaker 3 (21:58):
And so S is for success, T is for targets, the O
is a double duty one, so it'sobstacles and opportunities.
So identify an obstacle andthen the opportunity that that
presents.
And then the last one is actionsteps.
And I think, Steve, when itcomes to strategic planning and
goal setting, we often fallshort.
(22:19):
When it comes to the actionsteps, we're really good at
setting all the targets, butactually the nitty gritty
details of who's going to dosomething, when are you going to
do it?
You know it's like if you wantto get up in the morning, you
know, and a target is settingyour alarm, the action step is
actually setting it.
You know that follow throughmatters.
(22:40):
So I started playing around withthat and that's how I developed
this process and realizing thatsuccess.
If I put success as never, likepurging, binging and purging
again, that was the wrongoutcome to put, because you have
to identify the outcome thatmatters, and so that's something
that's in your control and youcan put things that aren't as
(23:02):
well.
But if I just had never bingingand purging again, I know that
I would be engaging in a processthat ultimately would be
destructive.
But if I redefine success asbeing healthy.
It opens it up and there's nolonger that pressure.
(23:22):
And to be clear, in case it'sconfusing, if I put never binge
and purging as success, thatmeans that if I were to slip up
and binge and purge, that meansI failed.
And once we fail like that,it's really easy to kind of
spiral and then it takes thepressure off.
(23:42):
So yeah, so it just.
You know.
I also know that I would havethen found another bad habit to
substitute.
So that's what happens a lot oftimes with addictions.
We swap one for the other, youknow, and I didn't want to do
that.
So that's how that created.
And now that process works as adebrief.
So it's a never ending cycleand once you go through it, then
(24:02):
afterwards you look at the endof the day I'd go back through.
Did I achieve success?
Did I hit my targets?
What obstacles did I come upwith?
You know, and it just and myhusband uses it, and a lot of
people do now as a journalprompt.
So he does that for journalingin the morning, kind of that
kind of idea of that five-minutejournal, and at the end of the
day he goes back through it andit's a process I use in almost
(24:26):
all my workshops because I don'tthink we debrief enough.
I don't think we debrief enough, I don't think we go deep
enough and I don't think we dothe planning correctly.
And so, like I do it, when I goto Costco, you know I go.
It can expand, it can contract,it's really neat.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
And to end on this is , you know, my husband, because
I know a lot of your listenersare first responders.
We're not ending by any stretch.
This is good, okay.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
Well, I'm ending.
I don't know what you're goingto do with your day, but I'm
done All my time.
But no, he uses it when they'reheading on a call, so he'll
take.
So that's.
The great thing about Stoa isthat I can spend eight hours
with a group going through astrategic planning using Stoa,
(25:09):
or you can use it in a highstress situation in the two to
three minutes it takes you toget to a call, and that's what
my husband does with his crew,and so you know they're in the
fire truck and he'll take themthrough a Stoa.
And he has said you know it'sbeen incredible because you're
just you get to where you'regoing and you get going right,
(25:29):
you save the precious minutes,but you also just are more
successful at what you're doing.
And then he uses the sameframework for all the after
action.
You know reports and debriefstoo.
I mean that is longer on thatend.
So it has a lot of applicationswhich I like.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Well, I think that that's what I would love is like
what you just said.
There's so many good thingsthat you said.
Being able to achieve and getto those goals is very important
, but if you make it unrealistic, it won't happen.
When I talk about addictionwhether it's food, whether it's
alcohol, whether it's whatever Ialways tell people don't make
full abstinence for the next 20years your goal, because you are
(26:08):
absolutely going to fail.
I know of like a handful ofpeople that do it all the time
and that's great, that's goodfor them, but the rest of them
they face adversities.
So you need to learn.
I didn't use the words observe,like you do, but what happened?
And when I talk about lapseversus relapse, I tell people
that we all lapse.
(26:29):
We all have a moment.
That's life.
But if you make it a relapse anda failure in who you are, then
you're fucking yourself over andI think that that's what you're
saying and I love thatmentality because I think that
that brings us to a lot ofnegative thoughts of ourself and
the people who are like fullabstinence of anything or I've
(26:51):
got to succeed by never doingthat again or always doing that.
They go back with a revenge ondoing the stuff they didn't,
they said they wouldn't do orthey would do.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
Yeah, oh, yeah, and I include, you know quote from
this guy in my book DanTallman's his name and he's an
addiction recovery counselor.
He was a former alcohol and sohe's you know cause he shares
that same perspective as I do ofwe need to change how we
identify the outcome of thesethings.
And you know the book okay,it's another acronym, but my
(27:24):
leadership framework is safebecause I do think, ultimately,
leaders is our job to makepeople around us feel safe.
And I think that we that's kindof put us like oh, kind of like
a weak, soft thing, the wordsafe, but it's like no, it's
like that's kind of like a weak,soft thing, the word safe, but
it's like no, it's like that'sone of the most badass things
possible to keep people aroundyou safe.
And the E?
So the E is for endurance, tovalue the process over outcome,
(27:48):
and it's not because I'manti-outcome, I just feel, again
, we get the outcome wrong.
We have to figure out what isthe outcome that matters.
And it's, if we put for me,when I went to the hospital for
anorexia back in like 2000, theoutcome that they set for me
there was a weight, you know,they wanted to get me to a
certain weight.
And so because of that and Iinclude in there and I was like
(28:12):
like sociopath level with mydiaries back then, like I
recorded conversations, like Iwrote cause I again we didn't
have phones, we didn't havecomputers, I mean like so all I
had was my diaries.
I wrote everything down for thesix weeks I was there and
including everything I ate, andthey were like it was like I was
(28:39):
a goose and they were justtrying to fat me off.
So it was a good like because,like I was, they just were
putting weight on and I left thehospital and they still wasn't
too late and so my meal plan hadme eating like eight to 11
desserts a day and that's nothealthy and it was just packing
weight on.
So I didn't learn how to have ahealthy relationship with food.
And you know the whole approachto it.
You know it was in pursuit ofthe wrong outcome and so
(29:01):
therefore, the process was notgood and then we got to kind of
take a moment.
What is the outcome thatmatters?
So when something bad happensor maybe your listeners have
children, or maybe yourlisteners have children my
teenage daughter screwed up andshe came to me and she was
(29:22):
honest about it and I had thatmoment where I decided, okay,
what's the outcome that matters?
Is it to give her a punishment?
Is it to come down hard on her,or is it to make sure she's
becoming a know?
She's becoming a teenager,older, you know, shit is going
to continue to happen.
The outcome of the matter isthat she comes to me when she
(29:45):
makes a mistake, right, and howI responded in that moment,
right, there was going to bevery impactful whether or not
she comes back to me, and that'swhat we got to slow down and
figure out what's the outcomethat matters.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
And listening to all this, there's a few things that
I want to observe is that onceyou take shame out of the
equation, whether self-imposedor imposed by others things
change.
And when you talk about thosemoments, I have two teenage
daughters, so, believe me, Irelate, and the one thing that
my daughters tell me is that younever shame us, you let us be,
(30:21):
and, yeah, there's times I wantto cringe, and they know that,
but no shame.
And what you just described isexactly right.
It's like life's not made oflike these long speeches or
these great podcasts or a greatbook or whatever.
It's made by moments and if youcan grab that moment.
And that's safe.
I don't know what the otherletters stand for is so
(30:41):
essential because there's safetyin our conversation.
We barely know each other andwe were joking within seconds
and then, oh, this is safe, wecan have a nice conversation.
We underestimate safety.
They think safety is like oh,my door's locked.
No, that's not safety.
That's sometimes a prison youcreate.
Sorry, marcus Aurelius, justkicked in, but at the end of the
(31:02):
day, it's learning to be safewith your emotions, safe with
another person and be their safeperson.
And to me, that's where weabsolutely forget leadership,
people in power they all feellike frauds, in my experience
anyway, like how did I get here?
What the hell am I doing?
Yeah, it's because they don'tfeel safe of expressing what
they may be struggling with,because they have to be in
(31:25):
leadership.
No, no, just tell the truth,it's okay.
There's nothing wrong with thatabsolutely well.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
And so, um, because I know everyone's like what does
safe stand for?
They're, like you know, on theedge of their seats right now.
So, just to go through it, save.
The S is the strength to actand stand with integrity, a is
agility, to adapt to the needsof the moment, f is flexibility,
to reach for curiosity andadversity, and E is the
(31:51):
endurance of process overoutcome.
It's all kind of sports related, not only because I just love
sports and working with athletes, but when I first created it I
make the comparison to people goto the gym to get those show
muscles right.
They might look like they'restrong, but there's really no
functional strength and I thinkthat happens a lot in leadership
(32:11):
.
It's really easy to memorize theright soundbites, right To say
the right things, but there's noreal functional strength of
leadership there and you need tohave that.
It's so important.
And that's where, likeredefining leadership has.
You know that's a soapbox I'llgladly like hop onto any day
because it's right now tied to ajob title, and what I say all
(32:33):
the time is like leadership is alifestyle, not a job title.
What I say all the time isleadership is a lifestyle, not a
job title and we have to reallyfocus on recognizing a team of
leaders.
Is what you want?
You don't want a team and aleader, right?
A team that has a leader, no,no, no.
If you have a team of leaders,oh well, then you can cook To
(32:57):
try to not use all the words andbrain rot.
I learned from my teenager.
But like, yeah, you get cookingreal, real quick when you have
a team of leaders.
Something else you said thatsparked something that I wanted
to make sure I touched on wasactually you didn't say this,
but I thought of it while you'retalking.
Let me just clarify that.
It sparked the thought, whichis because you were saying how
will we respond to this?
(33:17):
And the title of my book isChoose the Handle that Holds,
and unless, if you're a stoicismnerd, you won't probably know
what that means, and it comesfrom a quote in stoicism, which
is that every situation in lifehas two handles one by which it
can be carried and one by whichit cannot.
Every moment it does matter andit presents those handles.
(33:42):
Which one are you going to grab?
The tricky thing is is, a lot oftimes, the one that will break
is the one that's a lot easierto grab right.
That's the one responding, youknow, with anger.
For me, like bulimia, my eatingdisorder, that was a handle
that presented itself.
It was the illusion of the onethat would hold, but it wasn't.
And grabbing the handle thatholds, that's choosing integrity
(34:06):
.
When faced with shame,rationalization that's the one
that breaks.
And rationalization masks shame.
Integrity erases it.
And so often, when we grab thatwrong handle because you're
talking about shame, things dobreak.
And what do we do?
We sweep things under the rug.
Right, we don't want to putback the pieces the right way,
we duct tape it together.
But what we have to remember islike, okay, I fucked up and I
(34:29):
grabbed the wrong handle.
Things broke.
Guess what?
You get another chance atgrabbing the right handle.
So what are you going to do now?
And that's where that idea ofkanzuki comes into play which,
yeah, tell me about.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Like I love kanzuki.
I I think that that's a veryimportant part of life, because
I think that it you know, I Ithink that pre-interview we were
talking about how it relates totrauma, but please explain to
people what that means and wecan get.
Speaker 3 (34:59):
We can grow from there yeah, so it is a japanese
um art.
It's a way of repairing, uh,ceramics.
And so, instead of trying tomake it look like you know,
let's say, a vase was neverbroken, concealing the cracks,
they, they seal it with gold,and so you can see exactly where
that ceramic, that vase, thatpot, whatever where it broke,
(35:22):
and the idea of creating beautyfrom our imperfections.
And what's really cool, I meanlike this metaphor, it's pretty
spot on which is that if youwere to drop that vase again
that's been repaired withKintsuki, first of all, that
vase again that's been repairedwith kintsuki, first of all,
congrats your klutz.
(35:42):
Second is that vase will notbreak in those same places, so
it truly is stronger for havingbeen broken, and there's a lot
of beauty in that right there.
But here's the really importantthing when it comes to trauma,
when it comes to leadership,everything in life is you have
to have all the pieces, and toooften shame keeps us from
(36:04):
bringing forth all those pieces.
And so, as a leader, it's yourjob to create an environment,
create a culture where thosearound you feel safe enough to
bring you all of those pieces.
You know, say like this is it?
Because only then can you putthem back together.
And that's where, like thatStoa debrief part is important,
Because you need to understandwhere all the pieces are, what
(36:29):
all broke.
Because if you don't, if youdon't get to, you know, if you
don't get to the core issue ofthat failure, all those pieces,
you're going to face it againand again.
It's going to keep breaking.
It's going to look a littledifferent, but it's going to
keep breaking.
And so you have to value takingthe time to put things back
together.
(36:50):
The correct way, not just theeasiest way, not just a good
enough like this will hold for abit until I'm out of here way
but really, really invest indoing it right.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
And I liken it to when you talk about trauma and
strength and everything else.
Stop thinking that trauma issomething you got to hide.
You had a hard moment.
X, y, z, reason, whatever it is, celebrate it.
I mean you can't put glue ofgold on yourself but say it is
what it is.
Celebrate it.
I mean you can't put glue ofgold on yourself but say it is
what it is.
And the other thing I didn'tget to say earlier that I want
(37:22):
to mention for sure is one of mygood friends mentions that you
don't need stars and stripes tobe a leader in the police force
and in every paramilitarypersonnel that you can think of.
That goes 100% true.
You don't need stars andstripes to be a leader, and
that's something I want tomention here.
Speaker 3 (37:43):
Yeah, and my husband.
He's on the peer support teamtoo, there in his departments
and making sure I mean he's toldme plenty of times of the way
he holds conversations isdifferent than others probably
do and really leading thatvulnerability he will.
You know, he talks about goingto therapy, like we.
(38:04):
I talk about it all the time.
I think everyone should be intherapy.
It's like it's having, likehaving a paid friend.
It's amazing, like they haveone job and that's to be there
for you, like that.
Why would you not want that?
Uh, that's uh I, I love it.
But you know, I think withtrauma, where does stoicism
(38:24):
bring?
Its value?
Is it really can help hold youaccountable, to looking at it
and getting comfy with it in anew way and also understanding
what is yours to carry and whatisn't.
You know it's, it's people Imean I, my husband, what he sees
that on a daily basis, like ifthat happened, one of those
(38:46):
calls happened to me I would betalking about it all the time
like I'd be the craziest thingin my life.
Right, and to him it's justlike another tuesday and he's
very deliberate in making surehe does everything he can to not
make it just be another Tuesdayto give space for what it
(39:08):
actually is and understandingwhat he has to dig into and
getting curious and, when hefeels those triggers, not just
shoving them down but leaninginto that discomfort.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
Well, I think that, to quote something else, being
comfortable with beinguncomfortable.
Speaker 3 (39:26):
That's why there's a whole chapter in my book on that
.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
I didn't know that, but I figured you'd have
something on that, because I do.
Speaker 3 (39:34):
It is, it's, it's, it's good, it's good to practice
and it's really it's good.
It's good to practice and it'sreally it's fun.
The the thing that I would Iwould hate to not mention this,
and I know we're at time, soI'll be very quick about it is
there's this Latin phrase that Iteach in all my talks and I
gotta tell you, steve, nothinggets an audience more excited
(39:54):
than being like guess what guys,we're going to talk about Latin
stoicism and death, because Icover all three in every talk I
give.
But one thing I know my husbanduses with helping, you know,
getting through the trauma andstuff, is that idea of so it's a
Latin phrase memento mori,which means like remember, you
too shall die, memento mori andkeeping that.
(40:17):
You know, that's what one ofthe beautiful things of everyone
who's a first responder is.
They don't escape thatperspective, they see it, and
that gives you the opportunityto just gosh live life instead
of just pass time.
I don't think life is too short.
I think we make it shortbecause we don't live it, we're
(40:38):
just passing time.
You can live a lot of life in asingle day.
And the other thing is amor fati.
Are you familiar with thatphrase?
Okay, it's not technicallystoic, but it embraces it in
stoicism.
I know Well.
I just think some people willget angry if.
I don't acknowledge it.
(40:58):
Okay.
So Morphati is Latin for loveof fate, and what it means is
like don't just accept your fate, embrace it, love it.
Don't just take the hits, butget stronger for them.
Resilience is talked about alot.
I think resilience falls short,because what a Morphati does?
It allows you to go beyondresilient, and what beyond
(41:19):
resilient means is movingforward.
You're not just bouncing back.
So, whatever comes your way, belike fuck, this is it, what am I
going to do with it?
How am I going to turn it to mybenefit?
Because you can't change it forthe most part.
You can't control your fate,you can't control the weather.
I've tried um and um, the.
There is just one word, thoughI sometimes add after it,
(41:41):
because sometimes life getsreally freaking hard yes and so
sometimes, because it'sliterally a phrase, I think out
loud, or I say I think out loud,I think in my head, or say out
loud so the word I add aftermore fatty steve is motherfucker
, because there are times whenbeyond, say, like a more fatty
motherfucker, it gives youpermission to move beyond the
(42:02):
like I'd rathers, beyond thelamenting, beyond the
complaining and bitching aboutshit, and move right into action
, and that's what we need to todo more of.
I think we spent a lot of timejust just whining and not enough
time doing like living freakinglife Well.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
I agree, I think that you're nicer than I am because
I tell people no one makes itout alive.
Might as well enjoy it whileyou're here.
Number two originally someonemade my podcast Resilience in
Action and I said that's notenough Resilience development in
it.
Now that makes sense because wealways have to develop more and
(42:43):
more resilience.
You never quite get there, andso that resonated with me with
so much, but, as you said, timeis of essence.
I'd like to hear how people canreach you and get your book and
the other thing too.
And before we leave, I'm goingto be again very truthful with
you.
How about we do this again inthe fall?
Speaker 3 (43:01):
Sounds good, I'll bring my husband along.
He's a good egg, he's a goodone.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
I actually like him too.
Don't tell him I have a crushon him, yet it's going to make
it awkward.
But no, please tell people howto reach you and yes, please
come back in the fall.
I'd love to do that yep, uh, sothey can.
Speaker 3 (43:18):
So you can go to beckysmokecom and guess what?
You don't have to spell it, theweird way that my last name is
spelled.
You can just type smoke, likecommon spelling smoke, and
redirect you because my name ispronounced smoke does not look
like it.
Um, so beckysmokecom, yeah,yeah, I know I but it.
Speaker 2 (43:36):
You know like.
Uh, be like Becky.
Smokecom, and I'll put all thatin the show notes too is going
to be a direct link, so peoplewon't click on it.
Speaker 3 (43:43):
And I post every day almost on social media Facebook,
linkedin, instagram.
Speaker 2 (43:48):
Oh, you're on all those things, all those things.
Speaker 3 (43:51):
Just type in my name that one name, that one you're
gonna have to spell correctly.
So you're gonna have to figureout that one.
Speaker 2 (43:55):
it looks like schmoochie s-c-h-m-o-o-k-e and
that's how I pronounced it, butI also asked if I got it right
but we have.
Speaker 3 (44:04):
I'll post videos of our baby goats um as well.
So it's leadership, mindfulness, stoicism, stuff, and then also
fun videos of goats andchickens and hopefully a little
bit of mindful, mindful kitchen.
Speaker 2 (44:14):
Yes, there is um, there is a little bit of that
mindful kitchen?
Speaker 3 (44:16):
Yes, there is.
There is a little bit of a.
You'll see some deliciouspictures of things.
Speaker 2 (44:23):
Well, Becky, let's, let's find a date for sometime
in the fall.
I love talking to you and Iappreciate your time.
Speaker 3 (44:32):
Thank you very much.
Steve Did not say, sir, I wantto say one.
Speaker 2 (44:37):
So you didn't tell me asshole once.
That's good, thank you.
Speaker 3 (44:40):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
Please like, subscribe and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful and, as a reminder, this
podcast is for informational,educational and entertainment
purposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(45:06):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action, where
strength meets strategy andcourage to help you move forward
.
Each week, your host, steveBisson, a therapist with over
two decades of experience in thefirst responder community,
brings you powerfulconversations about resilience,
growth and healing throughtrauma and grief.
Through authentic interviews,expert discussions and
(00:21):
real-world experiences, we divedeep into the heart of human
resilience.
We explore crucial topics liketrauma recovery, grief
processing, stress managementand emotional well-being.
This is Resilience Developmentin Action with Steve Bisson.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Hi and welcome to episode 209.
If you haven't listened toepisode 208, please go and
listen.
Bruce Wasser was a great guest,talked about Father's Day,
talked about Vietnam, doc beinga conscientious objector and his
memoir.
So please go and listen to that.
But for episode 209, we'regoing to be with Becky Schmookie
.
Becky is someone that hasreached out to me and she's a
leadership coach, author andkeynote speaker.
(01:03):
She also wrote a book calledChoose the Handle that Holds a
guide to living, leading andowning the moments that matter.
She talks about stoicphilosophy, she talks about how
her personal story empowered herand she does something called
Becky's Mindful Kitchen, wherefarm life needs leadership
training through retreats, campsand hands-on learning.
(01:24):
She has worked with differentpeople, from executives to NFL
players, and she does enjoywrangling her baby goats, and
she reminds us that leadershipis not something you do, it's
something that you are.
And here's the interview.
Getfreeai, you heard me talkabout it.
(01:46):
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And if you do it for a wholeyear, guess what?
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More importantly, this is whatyou got to remember because you
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(02:28):
If you do listen to this and youwant to use freeai, put in the
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(02:49):
Freeai, a great service.
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you to do so.
Well, hi everyone and welcometo episode 209.
I'm so happy to have someonewho, unfortunately, already
(03:09):
insulted me.
She called me sir, I'm Steve,so it's already starting bad.
But all joking aside, wait,hold on.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
That is Okay, go ahead, introduce me, and then
we're going to circle back tothat one.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Okay, I'll tell you right now for me, sir is my dad.
I don't.
I don't do like for me toconnect with people I would.
I don't like using ma'am sir ifI call you sir or ma'am, and I
worked in a jail.
So when I worked in the jailand they called you sir and I
asked one of the guys, they saidwhy you call me sir?
He's like well, I can't callyou asshole, can I?
And I'm like good point.
So that's why whenever I hearsir, I don't hear sir, um you
(03:48):
hear asshole yeah, okay, that'swhat I hear um, so that's why,
but becky snow.
Welcome to resiliencedevelopment in action I thank
you for having me.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
You know what's great steve is a podcast I did a
couple months ago.
We talked about this exactconcept, about the fact because
I do call people, sir, andthat's really an important part
of how I communicate.
I love doing it and so I willdo my best not to, and I will
sub an asshole instead, ifthat's better.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
If you can call me asshole, I appreciate that
actually.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
I can do that, but yeah, no, thank you for having
me.
And that's actually a great,great story and a good reminder
that everyone does have theirown reaction to things and we
don't know it.
And so it might be very weirdif someone, like you know, does
kind of bristles at the sir whenyou think you're being kind of
polite and they don't enjoy that.
So that's a good reminder.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
But when you have a big country kind of polite and
they don't enjoy that, so that's.
But when we have a big countrylike the U S, you know, I think
that you know, coming toNortheast around here, calling
people sir is not actuallyreally well seen.
You go in the, you know, in theSouth and the Midwest, sir is a
common theme and it's okay andthere's nothing wrong with that,
it's respectful, and so I thinkthat for me it's just how I
(05:06):
grew up being a Montrealer whereI call them.
When I was in elementary school, I call my teachers by their
first name.
How insulting is that, wow.
Yeah, that's how we grew up.
It was normal.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
But that's something I think it is smart to always
keep in the back of your mind,like when you travel, like
understand the customs.
I know my husband's afirefighter and he's talked
about.
He knows certain areas of thecity.
You know if you havepopulations from, you know
there's sometimes like adifferent ethnicity and knowing
what is the cultural norm isreally helpful in connecting and
(05:38):
not accidentally doingsomething that's going to create
that disconnect that's going toultimately make your job harder
.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
I think that sometimes it is all cultural,
sometimes it's also generationaland sometimes it's, like even
to me, sexist or based on gender.
It's not ladylike or somebullshit like that.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
Yeah, and I enjoy challenging those assumptions
and those cultural norms attimes, and I have the ability to
do so.
That's one thing I'vediscovered is, if you go into
something with a good intentionand it isn't to disturb people,
it isn't to be an asshole, thenit is usually better received.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
So not trying to be a disruptor, just kind of just
being me, being a founder of theStoic Edge Consulting.
There's a lot of stoicism inwhat you're saying, so I really
appreciate it.
But now I don't want to jumpinto stoicism quite yet, but I'd
like to jump into hey, who'sBecky Smoke?
I don't know who she is.
They don't know who you are.
Tell us about you.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
Well with you.
Tell us about you.
Well, I am, so I do.
I'm the founder of Stoic EdgeConsulting, and that part.
That business focuses onleadership consulting, coaching,
speaking, writing, all thosefun things and, from again, the
perspective of stoicism, whichwe will not get into just yet,
and really it's, though, aboutredefining what it means to lead
(07:03):
.
I do think we have leadershipwrong and we've been taught it
the wrong way and we continue totalk about it in a way that
leaves out some really importantthings.
So that's what I do with thatbusiness.
And then I also am founder of abusiness called Becky's Mindful
Kitchen, and that is a fun one.
I have an on-site location whereI host summer camps for kids.
You can kind of ground inleadership, but we use a lot of
(07:25):
cooking, so I do a lot ofleadership retreats here too,
and I'm in iOS, so smack dab inthe middle we have goats and
chickens and timber and archeryrange, so I teach archery as a.
We teach leadership and stuffand kind of bushcraft survival
stuff.
I have kids out here duringfire camp chopping their own
wood and starting fires withknives and ferro rods.
It's a lot of fun.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Lost stress on that day.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
I could not do that business without his help, for
sure.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
And then you didn't even talk about your book Choose
the Handle that Holds A Guideto Living Leading Owning Moments
that Matter, which is guide toliving leading owning moments
that matter, which is also yourbook, if I read that correctly.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
That is yep, that just came out this spring, and
so that is, that's a book thatit's okay.
Here's been my issue, Steve,and I wanna know if you have
this too.
There's so many great booksthat I would read and I just I
love everything inside of it,and then I'd end it and I'd be
like okay, like, but how?
Like, how do I take this stuffand put it into action?
(08:32):
And so for my book, I wanted tonot lose track of the
importance of the action steps,and that's why, like, I
literally have a chapter that'stitled but how, how?
At the end of each section ofit, with these actionable like,
right now, you don't have towait till the end.
Here's how you can implementthings, Because I think we do a
(08:54):
lot of talking and we don't doenough action, and I understand
the irony that I'm going to betalking for the next half hour
but.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
No, but I think it's also like you know.
You thought you know like itmay be a good place to go.
Start Like.
I want to note two things.
Stoicism is something that meand I have a business partner in
another venture that we talkabout constantly.
It's part of our work.
Actually we don't have a book,but we definitely put it in
place in our work.
We work mostly with firstresponders there.
(09:23):
Place in our work.
We work mostly with firstresponders there, and what I
absolutely adore is you practicewhat you preach, and what I
mean by that is we're nottalking about your past, we're
not talking about where you'reheading.
You told me exactly what'sgoing on right now and that's
part of the stoicism practice.
It's not about not havingemotions but staying in the
moment, and I think that that'spart of what I think is
misunderstood by stoicism.
(09:44):
And I think that that's part ofwhat I think is misunderstood
by stoicism and again, notpicking on anyone, but the red
step child of philosophy.
And yet it's so important and Ilove stoicism I mean, can you
help me like kind of demystifythat concept because people
don't get it?
I think people don't get itpersonally absolutely it's very
(10:05):
misunderstood.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
I feel bad for I equivocate it to like um, any
person named karen these days,like it's really like unfairly,
like judged um just because oftheir name.
So and this happens becausethere's the little s stoic and
then the big s stoic.
So there is the word stoic andwe think of, you know the no
emotion stiff upper lip, youknow, queen of england type of a
(10:26):
stoic, and we think of the noemotions, stiff upper lip, queen
of England type of stoic.
And then the philosophy, thoughthat's that big as stoic and
it's very different the way Idescribe it is for me.
I have emotions, but myemotions don't have me Not being
controlled by your emotions andtruly understanding what's in
your control and what isn't, andthen being able to take any
(10:49):
obstacle that comes your way,everything that comes your way,
and turning it to your benefitand not from, like this toxic
positivity approach of, like youknow, find the silver lining,
the good in everything, kind ofcringe approach to it.
But really, looking at, okay,this is what I've got, how can I
use this?
How can I use this to make mebetter, me stronger, those
(11:12):
around me better?
And that's where, again,leadership comes in.
But really I think we spendmost of our energy on the things
that we can't control and notenough on the things we can.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
I agree, and I'm not going to name the book, but I'm
listening to a book that Iactually like and there a lot of
it is like he talks about stoicapproaches.
He doesn't say stoic, but it'sdefinitely where he's going.
But he doesn't tell anyone howto apply it, he just talks about
it, and one of the things thatpeople like what's the easiest
way to approach stoicism.
So one of the things you got tolearn to do is observe.
(11:45):
You're not judging it, you'renot trying to make sense of it.
You're observing what'shappening.
And well, that's easy.
I'm like no, it's not, becauseyou're thinking about how it
made you feel and you're nolonger observing as soon as you
think about how it felt.
Observing is looking for thingsas facts, not as what you felt
like.
So calling me an asshole isjust calling me an asshole.
(12:08):
She called me an asshole.
That's affecting me.
Why is it affecting me?
Why did she come Now?
Stoicism is to explore thosethings and not to react to it,
but rather observe it.
I don't know if that's a goodway to conceptualize for people.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
Yeah, well, it's curiosity right.
Like it sparks that curiosity,that idea and I apologize, I
jumped in, interrupted you a bitthere, but you know that I know
that idea of you know thethings that disturb us and it's
a paraphrase of one of the stokequotes is things that disturb
us, you know, are not the thingsthemselves but our judgment of
them.
And so if you can likeunderstand, like, oh, like, I
(12:42):
just got really triggered, likewhat happened there, you know
emotions are not bad, but youknow there's no and there's no
such.
I don't think anger is badnecessarily where it turns.
You know, quote unquote bad iswhen we allow it to dictate what
we do, when we allow it when wescoot over and, like you, drive
no, that's when things can getin trouble.
(13:03):
But being able to use anger asa you know, an entry point to a
deeper understanding of yourself, yeah, that's awesome.
You know an entry point to adeeper understanding of yourself
, yeah, that's awesome.
And there's a concept I createdcalled a word check and it's in
my book and, to brieflydescribe it, it hits exactly
what you're saying.
Like so often, we spell checkright, we check the spelling,
(13:24):
but we don't always check thewords and I kind of started
recognizing.
Like, oh my gosh, we too oftenare reading between the lines
and we're really bad at it andwe're responding to the stories,
not what's actually being said,you know.
So we tell ourselves and thenwe also speak in judgment terms
instead of facts and it's nothelpful to tell somebody they're
(13:45):
being lazy.
That's a judgment, because whatI think is lazy might be very
different than what you think islazy, right, and it doesn't
help them.
So it's like, okay, well, whatare they doing?
Like what's actually happeningthat you're calling lazy?
And then same with you know, ifsomeone says, you know, like
did you unload the dishwasher?
All you have to do is say yesor no, but rarely doing just
(14:09):
anything with the dishwasher.
Keep it at yes or no, right,like we hear the story.
We also need to think thatthere's judgment and we respond
to that and we waste so muchtime and so many conflicts
happen because of that situationand not taking the time to slow
down and check the story.
You know, check your words orcheck.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
I love that and I think that you know.
There's another one that I wantto bring up a little later on,
which is Stoa, that you alsobring up in your book.
Can't wait to be able to fullyread.
Again, being truthful with myaudience, haven't read it yet,
just being truthful, but I'malready, like Becky, a lot and a
lot of the practice, like youknow.
I'll show you how, when you'rea bullshit artist, you're not
(14:51):
able to practice what you say.
Factually.
We were running late thismorning I'm just being factual
about it but there was nojudgment, there was no anger,
there was no frustration.
We're gonna start late in thisstory.
Nothing I can do about it,nothing becky can do about it.
That's it and learningcommunicate.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
Sorry to interrupt and lose my voice at the same
time, but, like in those moments, right yeah, to just be able to
just communicate to you.
Hey, I'm going to be a littlebit late, and that was in my
control, I could do that.
And what you do with that notin my control, you know.
And it's just, I thinksometimes we make things bigger
(15:29):
than they have to be.
And so, being like, okay,you're a human being, you're
going to understand this andthat's what I tell people, I'm
like, okay, you really just tellme Like I can, but we don't, we
undervalue the little things.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
That can make a big difference.
Communicating the fact you knowlike, and again, truthful.
I know you listen, but a lot ofpeople who may mean you to this
.
I'm just telling you, like itis, type of guy Like Becky went
out of her way to find my cellphone number to text me and say,
look, I'm running a little late.
She didn't have access to that.
(16:03):
She had to look it up and finda way that that was under her
control to do so.
She didn't go.
Oh my God, nothing I can do.
I under her control to do so.
She didn't go.
Oh my God, nothing I can do.
I'm not trying anything, I'mjust backing up.
She also made the effort and ifshe wouldn't have found it,
shit happens.
But ultimately, I think that'ssomething like we even had.
You know, getting this set up.
There was a couple of things weneeded to do.
(16:24):
I wasn't upset.
I'm like, hey, how are you?
This is what I need.
And you went.
Oh sure, I didn't know itwasn't done.
And the story I wasn't upset,she wasn't upset, it was what it
was.
When you practice stoicismproperly, that doesn't mean
you're not emotional.
That doesn't mean you haveemotions.
It's just like you can dealwith your shit a lot better in
my opinion.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
Yeah, you don't waste time.
I'm going to have no voice.
This is great, because I havemultiple interviews today.
I can't wait.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
It's going to be a good one.
I get the first one.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
It's downhill from here, but no, it does fall into
this idea of again, over andover, what's in our control and
if you focus on that, it doesmake things easier.
But I'm going to be honest, italso makes things a lot harder
(17:09):
and that's why when stoicism sothe first chapter of stoicism in
the book is, you know, titledlike.
I hated stoicism, and I didwhen it was first introduced to
me.
I hated it.
My husband's the one who firstintroduced it and I was not Wait
.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
A firefighter in stoicism.
Speaker 3 (17:26):
Mm-hmm, yeah, no, he introduced me to stoicism,
philosophy I want to meet himnow that was he one of his
majors.
Oh, I think, oh, I think it's.
No, it was not.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
I think that I think that the first responder world
would benefit a hundred percentof stoicism, because they try to
control things you can'tcontrol when they're outside of
their work environment and I'mlike, no, you can't fucking do
that at home.
But anyway, sorry, Iinterrupted.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
Yeah, no, we talk about all the time.
So he loves Stoicism and heintroduced me to Buddhism.
He's fantastic.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
If he ever wants to come on to the podcast with you
or just him, just let him know.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
I don't know, I'm so fascinated already.
It's really, it has been reallyfun.
And so already it's really, ithas been really fun.
And so writing this entire bookyou know we talked about it was
, you know he had a hand inevery bit, like I'd bounce ideas
off him.
He, you know like it's reallyfun to be able to have that
collaboration and but again,like looking, so he introduced
(18:25):
it to me and I hated it.
I was terrified of it because itdoes ask you and you know, not
forces, but you're going to haveto look in the mirror, and at
the time I was not willing to dothat, and so the way I handled
that fear was to be an absolutebutthead about it all and I just
, like, did everything I couldfor a long time to tear apart
(18:47):
the philosophy, which inhindsight, I'm very grateful for
, because when you try to takesomething apart and disprove
something as not being useful,you end up really discovering
what it is.
And that way, and so I, you knowI was a complete asshole.
And then now I've written abook about it and I speak about
it and I teach it, and he hasnot once, he has never, ever,
(19:08):
like come back around and saidlike I told you so or called me
out on the fact that I hated itinitially, and for me it was
because I wasn't willing to, Iwasn't ready to do what I was
asking, because I was stilldeeply embattled with my eating
disorder, with bulimia, and Iwas like, oh boy, nope, not
(19:28):
today, not today.
And it took another couple ofyears, but I got there.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Well, a couple of things I want to mention, since
you've been introduced toBuddhism.
But we, resist, persists, and Ithink that that's a good stoic
and a Buddhist thought process.
So if you're really obsessingabout proving someone wrong,
then what are you resisting?
Speaker 3 (19:52):
Oh yeah, and you're going to keep it going.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
number one, Number two I'm happy that it helped you
with your eating disorder.
You want to talk a little bitabout it here and how it helped
you, Because I would love tohear the story.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
So this will bring us to that framework of STOA.
So that's how.
I created that when, about fiveyears ago, covid hits and my
husband, so he's on twodifferent fire departments.
He's on shift about 100 hours aweek, so he's full-time fire
captain in one city and thenhe's three-quarters time
assistant fire chief in anotherand he's helped like take that
(20:30):
department from volunteer to nowa hybrid department.
So he spends a lot of time at afirehouse and so COVID hits and
we have a daughter who has anundiagnosed lung condition.
There's a lot of uncertainty.
In the beginning we did notknow much and what we did know
was we did not want her gettingsick and I'm a type one diabetic
and again we didn't know howthat would work.
(20:50):
So you know face nails anduncertainty.
I realized I got to be ashealthy as possible and I know,
and I knew that being bulimicwas not helping me at all in
that goal of staying as healthyas possible.
I was like crap, now's the time.
And so I was like I got to doit and in the beginning of that
recovery and this is 20 years Istruggled with bulimia and 20
(21:14):
years of trying to recover butnever getting there it was just
white knuckling.
And you can only white knucklesomething so long, right, like,
eventually, like you know and Ido Brazilian jiu-jitsu I got
decent grips, but even my grips,you know your grips are going
to fail on you at some point.
And so this concept, thisframework of STOA, was created
(21:36):
throughout that first couple ofmonths of that recovery of me
realizing I got to create aprocess and what it stands for.
So it's an acronym, because ifyou're in a leadership field,
you have to have acronyms.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
If you work in coaching or in mental health,
you got to have acronyms.
If you work in coaching or inmental health, you got to have
acronyms, you got to do it.
Speaker 3 (21:58):
And so S is for success, T is for targets, the O
is a double duty one, so it'sobstacles and opportunities.
So identify an obstacle andthen the opportunity that that
presents.
And then the last one is actionsteps.
And I think, Steve, when itcomes to strategic planning and
goal setting, we often fallshort.
(22:19):
When it comes to the actionsteps, we're really good at
setting all the targets, butactually the nitty gritty
details of who's going to dosomething, when are you going to
do it?
You know it's like if you wantto get up in the morning, you
know, and a target is settingyour alarm, the action step is
actually setting it.
You know that follow throughmatters.
(22:40):
So I started playing around withthat and that's how I developed
this process and realizing thatsuccess.
If I put success as never, likepurging, binging and purging
again, that was the wrongoutcome to put, because you have
to identify the outcome thatmatters, and so that's something
that's in your control and youcan put things that aren't as
(23:02):
well.
But if I just had never bingingand purging again, I know that
I would be engaging in a processthat ultimately would be
destructive.
But if I redefine success asbeing healthy.
It opens it up and there's nolonger that pressure.
(23:22):
And to be clear, in case it'sconfusing, if I put never binge
and purging as success, thatmeans that if I were to slip up
and binge and purge, that meansI failed.
And once we fail like that,it's really easy to kind of
spiral and then it takes thepressure off.
(23:42):
So yeah, so it just.
You know.
I also know that I would havethen found another bad habit to
substitute.
So that's what happens a lot oftimes with addictions.
We swap one for the other, youknow, and I didn't want to do
that.
So that's how that created.
And now that process works as adebrief.
So it's a never ending cycleand once you go through it, then
(24:02):
afterwards you look at the endof the day I'd go back through.
Did I achieve success?
Did I hit my targets?
What obstacles did I come upwith?
You know, and it just and myhusband uses it, and a lot of
people do now as a journalprompt.
So he does that for journalingin the morning, kind of that
kind of idea of that five-minutejournal, and at the end of the
day he goes back through it andit's a process I use in almost
(24:26):
all my workshops because I don'tthink we debrief enough.
I don't think we debrief enough, I don't think we go deep
enough and I don't think we dothe planning correctly.
And so, like I do it, when I goto Costco, you know I go.
It can expand, it can contract,it's really neat.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
And to end on this is , you know, my husband, because
I know a lot of your listenersare first responders.
We're not ending by any stretch.
This is good, okay.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
Well, I'm ending.
I don't know what you're goingto do with your day, but I'm
done All my time.
But no, he uses it when they'reheading on a call, so he'll
take.
So that's.
The great thing about Stoa isthat I can spend eight hours
with a group going through astrategic planning using Stoa,
(25:09):
or you can use it in a highstress situation in the two to
three minutes it takes you toget to a call, and that's what
my husband does with his crew,and so you know they're in the
fire truck and he'll take themthrough a Stoa.
And he has said you know it'sbeen incredible because you're
just you get to where you'regoing and you get going right,
(25:29):
you save the precious minutes,but you also just are more
successful at what you're doing.
And then he uses the sameframework for all the after
action.
You know reports and debriefstoo.
I mean that is longer on thatend.
So it has a lot of applicationswhich I like.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Well, I think that that's what I would love is like
what you just said.
There's so many good thingsthat you said.
Being able to achieve and getto those goals is very important
, but if you make it unrealistic, it won't happen.
When I talk about addictionwhether it's food, whether it's
alcohol, whether it's whatever Ialways tell people don't make
full abstinence for the next 20years your goal, because you are
(26:08):
absolutely going to fail.
I know of like a handful ofpeople that do it all the time
and that's great, that's goodfor them, but the rest of them
they face adversities.
So you need to learn.
I didn't use the words observe,like you do, but what happened?
And when I talk about lapseversus relapse, I tell people
that we all lapse.
(26:29):
We all have a moment.
That's life.
But if you make it a relapse anda failure in who you are, then
you're fucking yourself over andI think that that's what you're
saying and I love thatmentality because I think that
that brings us to a lot ofnegative thoughts of ourself and
the people who are like fullabstinence of anything or I've
(26:51):
got to succeed by never doingthat again or always doing that.
They go back with a revenge ondoing the stuff they didn't,
they said they wouldn't do orthey would do.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
Yeah, oh, yeah, and I include, you know quote from
this guy in my book DanTallman's his name and he's an
addiction recovery counselor.
He was a former alcohol and sohe's you know cause he shares
that same perspective as I do ofwe need to change how we
identify the outcome of thesethings.
And you know the book okay,it's another acronym, but my
(27:24):
leadership framework is safebecause I do think, ultimately,
leaders is our job to makepeople around us feel safe.
And I think that we that's kindof put us like oh, kind of like
a weak, soft thing, the wordsafe, but it's like no, it's
like that's kind of like a weak,soft thing, the word safe, but
it's like no, it's like that'sone of the most badass things
possible to keep people aroundyou safe.
And the E?
So the E is for endurance, tovalue the process over outcome,
(27:48):
and it's not because I'manti-outcome, I just feel, again
, we get the outcome wrong.
We have to figure out what isthe outcome that matters.
And it's, if we put for me,when I went to the hospital for
anorexia back in like 2000, theoutcome that they set for me
there was a weight, you know,they wanted to get me to a
certain weight.
And so because of that and Iinclude in there and I was like
(28:12):
like sociopath level with mydiaries back then, like I
recorded conversations, like Iwrote cause I again we didn't
have phones, we didn't havecomputers, I mean like so all I
had was my diaries.
I wrote everything down for thesix weeks I was there and
including everything I ate, andthey were like it was like I was
(28:39):
a goose and they were justtrying to fat me off.
So it was a good like because,like I was, they just were
putting weight on and I left thehospital and they still wasn't
too late and so my meal plan hadme eating like eight to 11
desserts a day and that's nothealthy and it was just packing
weight on.
So I didn't learn how to have ahealthy relationship with food.
And you know the whole approachto it.
You know it was in pursuit ofthe wrong outcome and so
(29:01):
therefore, the process was notgood and then we got to kind of
take a moment.
What is the outcome thatmatters?
So when something bad happensor maybe your listeners have
children, or maybe yourlisteners have children my
teenage daughter screwed up andshe came to me and she was
(29:22):
honest about it and I had thatmoment where I decided, okay,
what's the outcome that matters?
Is it to give her a punishment?
Is it to come down hard on her,or is it to make sure she's
becoming a know?
She's becoming a teenager,older, you know, shit is going
to continue to happen.
The outcome of the matter isthat she comes to me when she
(29:45):
makes a mistake, right, and howI responded in that moment,
right, there was going to bevery impactful whether or not
she comes back to me, and that'swhat we got to slow down and
figure out what's the outcomethat matters.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
And listening to all this, there's a few things that
I want to observe is that onceyou take shame out of the
equation, whether self-imposedor imposed by others things
change.
And when you talk about thosemoments, I have two teenage
daughters, so, believe me, Irelate, and the one thing that
my daughters tell me is that younever shame us, you let us be,
(30:21):
and, yeah, there's times I wantto cringe, and they know that,
but no shame.
And what you just described isexactly right.
It's like life's not made oflike these long speeches or
these great podcasts or a greatbook or whatever.
It's made by moments and if youcan grab that moment.
And that's safe.
I don't know what the otherletters stand for is so
(30:41):
essential because there's safetyin our conversation.
We barely know each other andwe were joking within seconds
and then, oh, this is safe, wecan have a nice conversation.
We underestimate safety.
They think safety is like oh,my door's locked.
No, that's not safety.
That's sometimes a prison youcreate.
Sorry, marcus Aurelius, justkicked in, but at the end of the
(31:02):
day, it's learning to be safewith your emotions, safe with
another person and be their safeperson.
And to me, that's where weabsolutely forget leadership,
people in power they all feellike frauds, in my experience
anyway, like how did I get here?
What the hell am I doing?
Yeah, it's because they don'tfeel safe of expressing what
they may be struggling with,because they have to be in
(31:25):
leadership.
No, no, just tell the truth,it's okay.
There's nothing wrong with thatabsolutely well.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
And so, um, because I know everyone's like what does
safe stand for?
They're, like you know, on theedge of their seats right now.
So, just to go through it, save.
The S is the strength to actand stand with integrity, a is
agility, to adapt to the needsof the moment, f is flexibility,
to reach for curiosity andadversity, and E is the
(31:51):
endurance of process overoutcome.
It's all kind of sports related, not only because I just love
sports and working with athletes, but when I first created it I
make the comparison to people goto the gym to get those show
muscles right.
They might look like they'restrong, but there's really no
functional strength and I thinkthat happens a lot in leadership
(32:11):
.
It's really easy to memorize theright soundbites, right To say
the right things, but there's noreal functional strength of
leadership there and you need tohave that.
It's so important.
And that's where, likeredefining leadership has.
You know that's a soapbox I'llgladly like hop onto any day
because it's right now tied to ajob title, and what I say all
(32:33):
the time is like leadership is alifestyle, not a job title.
What I say all the time isleadership is a lifestyle, not a
job title and we have to reallyfocus on recognizing a team of
leaders.
Is what you want?
You don't want a team and aleader, right?
A team that has a leader, no,no, no.
If you have a team of leaders,oh well, then you can cook To
(32:57):
try to not use all the words andbrain rot.
I learned from my teenager.
But like, yeah, you get cookingreal, real quick when you have
a team of leaders.
Something else you said thatsparked something that I wanted
to make sure I touched on wasactually you didn't say this,
but I thought of it while you'retalking.
Let me just clarify that.
It sparked the thought, whichis because you were saying how
will we respond to this?
(33:17):
And the title of my book isChoose the Handle that Holds,
and unless, if you're a stoicismnerd, you won't probably know
what that means, and it comesfrom a quote in stoicism, which
is that every situation in lifehas two handles one by which it
can be carried and one by whichit cannot.
Every moment it does matter andit presents those handles.
(33:42):
Which one are you going to grab?
The tricky thing is is, a lot oftimes, the one that will break
is the one that's a lot easierto grab right.
That's the one responding, youknow, with anger.
For me, like bulimia, my eatingdisorder, that was a handle
that presented itself.
It was the illusion of the onethat would hold, but it wasn't.
And grabbing the handle thatholds, that's choosing integrity
(34:06):
.
When faced with shame,rationalization that's the one
that breaks.
And rationalization masks shame.
Integrity erases it.
And so often, when we grab thatwrong handle because you're
talking about shame, things dobreak.
And what do we do?
We sweep things under the rug.
Right, we don't want to putback the pieces the right way,
we duct tape it together.
But what we have to remember islike, okay, I fucked up and I
(34:29):
grabbed the wrong handle.
Things broke.
Guess what?
You get another chance atgrabbing the right handle.
So what are you going to do now?
And that's where that idea ofkanzuki comes into play which,
yeah, tell me about.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Like I love kanzuki.
I I think that that's a veryimportant part of life, because
I think that it you know, I Ithink that pre-interview we were
talking about how it relates totrauma, but please explain to
people what that means and wecan get.
Speaker 3 (34:59):
We can grow from there yeah, so it is a japanese
um art.
It's a way of repairing, uh,ceramics.
And so, instead of trying tomake it look like you know,
let's say, a vase was neverbroken, concealing the cracks,
they, they seal it with gold,and so you can see exactly where
that ceramic, that vase, thatpot, whatever where it broke,
(35:22):
and the idea of creating beautyfrom our imperfections.
And what's really cool, I meanlike this metaphor, it's pretty
spot on which is that if youwere to drop that vase again
that's been repaired withKintsuki, first of all, that
vase again that's been repairedwith kintsuki, first of all,
congrats your klutz.
(35:42):
Second is that vase will notbreak in those same places, so
it truly is stronger for havingbeen broken, and there's a lot
of beauty in that right there.
But here's the really importantthing when it comes to trauma,
when it comes to leadership,everything in life is you have
to have all the pieces, and toooften shame keeps us from
(36:04):
bringing forth all those pieces.
And so, as a leader, it's yourjob to create an environment,
create a culture where thosearound you feel safe enough to
bring you all of those pieces.
You know, say like this is it?
Because only then can you putthem back together.
And that's where, like thatStoa debrief part is important,
Because you need to understandwhere all the pieces are, what
(36:29):
all broke.
Because if you don't, if youdon't get to, you know, if you
don't get to the core issue ofthat failure, all those pieces,
you're going to face it againand again.
It's going to keep breaking.
It's going to look a littledifferent, but it's going to
keep breaking.
And so you have to value takingthe time to put things back
together.
(36:50):
The correct way, not just theeasiest way, not just a good
enough like this will hold for abit until I'm out of here way
but really, really invest indoing it right.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
And I liken it to when you talk about trauma and
strength and everything else.
Stop thinking that trauma issomething you got to hide.
You had a hard moment.
X, y, z, reason, whatever it is, celebrate it.
I mean you can't put glue ofgold on yourself but say it is
what it is.
Celebrate it.
I mean you can't put glue ofgold on yourself but say it is
what it is.
And the other thing I didn'tget to say earlier that I want
(37:22):
to mention for sure is one of mygood friends mentions that you
don't need stars and stripes tobe a leader in the police force
and in every paramilitarypersonnel that you can think of.
That goes 100% true.
You don't need stars andstripes to be a leader, and
that's something I want tomention here.
Speaker 3 (37:43):
Yeah, and my husband.
He's on the peer support teamtoo, there in his departments
and making sure I mean he's toldme plenty of times of the way
he holds conversations isdifferent than others probably
do and really leading thatvulnerability he will.
You know, he talks about goingto therapy, like we.
(38:04):
I talk about it all the time.
I think everyone should be intherapy.
It's like it's having, likehaving a paid friend.
It's amazing, like they haveone job and that's to be there
for you, like that.
Why would you not want that?
Uh, that's uh I, I love it.
But you know, I think withtrauma, where does stoicism
(38:24):
bring?
Its value?
Is it really can help hold youaccountable, to looking at it
and getting comfy with it in anew way and also understanding
what is yours to carry and whatisn't.
You know it's, it's people Imean I, my husband, what he sees
that on a daily basis, like ifthat happened, one of those
(38:46):
calls happened to me I would betalking about it all the time
like I'd be the craziest thingin my life.
Right, and to him it's justlike another tuesday and he's
very deliberate in making surehe does everything he can to not
make it just be another Tuesdayto give space for what it
(39:08):
actually is and understandingwhat he has to dig into and
getting curious and, when hefeels those triggers, not just
shoving them down but leaninginto that discomfort.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
Well, I think that, to quote something else, being
comfortable with beinguncomfortable.
Speaker 3 (39:26):
That's why there's a whole chapter in my book on that
.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
I didn't know that, but I figured you'd have
something on that, because I do.
Speaker 3 (39:34):
It is, it's, it's, it's good, it's good to practice
and it's really it's good.
It's good to practice and it'sreally it's fun.
The the thing that I would Iwould hate to not mention this,
and I know we're at time, soI'll be very quick about it is
there's this Latin phrase that Iteach in all my talks and I
gotta tell you, steve, nothinggets an audience more excited
(39:54):
than being like guess what guys,we're going to talk about Latin
stoicism and death, because Icover all three in every talk I
give.
But one thing I know my husbanduses with helping, you know,
getting through the trauma andstuff, is that idea of so it's a
Latin phrase memento mori,which means like remember, you
too shall die, memento mori andkeeping that.
(40:17):
You know, that's what one ofthe beautiful things of everyone
who's a first responder is.
They don't escape thatperspective, they see it, and
that gives you the opportunityto just gosh live life instead
of just pass time.
I don't think life is too short.
I think we make it shortbecause we don't live it, we're
(40:38):
just passing time.
You can live a lot of life in asingle day.
And the other thing is amor fati.
Are you familiar with thatphrase?
Okay, it's not technicallystoic, but it embraces it in
stoicism.
I know Well.
I just think some people willget angry if.
I don't acknowledge it.
(40:58):
Okay.
So Morphati is Latin for loveof fate, and what it means is
like don't just accept your fate, embrace it, love it.
Don't just take the hits, butget stronger for them.
Resilience is talked about alot.
I think resilience falls short,because what a Morphati does?
It allows you to go beyondresilient, and what beyond
(41:19):
resilient means is movingforward.
You're not just bouncing back.
So, whatever comes your way, belike fuck, this is it, what am I
going to do with it?
How am I going to turn it to mybenefit?
Because you can't change it forthe most part.
You can't control your fate,you can't control the weather.
I've tried um and um, the.
There is just one word, thoughI sometimes add after it,
(41:41):
because sometimes life getsreally freaking hard yes and so
sometimes, because it'sliterally a phrase, I think out
loud, or I say I think out loud,I think in my head, or say out
loud so the word I add aftermore fatty steve is motherfucker
, because there are times whenbeyond, say, like a more fatty
motherfucker, it gives youpermission to move beyond the
(42:02):
like I'd rathers, beyond thelamenting, beyond the
complaining and bitching aboutshit, and move right into action
, and that's what we need to todo more of.
I think we spent a lot of timejust just whining and not enough
time doing like living freakinglife Well.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
I agree, I think that you're nicer than I am because
I tell people no one makes itout alive.
Might as well enjoy it whileyou're here.
Number two originally someonemade my podcast Resilience in
Action and I said that's notenough Resilience development in
it.
Now that makes sense because wealways have to develop more and
(42:43):
more resilience.
You never quite get there, andso that resonated with me with
so much, but, as you said, timeis of essence.
I'd like to hear how people canreach you and get your book and
the other thing too.
And before we leave, I'm goingto be again very truthful with
you.
How about we do this again inthe fall?
Speaker 3 (43:01):
Sounds good, I'll bring my husband along.
He's a good egg, he's a goodone.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
I actually like him too.
Don't tell him I have a crushon him, yet it's going to make
it awkward.
But no, please tell people howto reach you and yes, please
come back in the fall.
I'd love to do that yep, uh, sothey can.
Speaker 3 (43:18):
So you can go to beckysmokecom and guess what?
You don't have to spell it, theweird way that my last name is
spelled.
You can just type smoke, likecommon spelling smoke, and
redirect you because my name ispronounced smoke does not look
like it.
Um, so beckysmokecom, yeah,yeah, I know I but it.
Speaker 2 (43:36):
You know like.
Uh, be like Becky.
Smokecom, and I'll put all thatin the show notes too is going
to be a direct link, so peoplewon't click on it.
Speaker 3 (43:43):
And I post every day almost on social media Facebook,
linkedin, instagram.
Speaker 2 (43:48):
Oh, you're on all those things, all those things.
Speaker 3 (43:51):
Just type in my name that one name, that one you're
gonna have to spell correctly.
So you're gonna have to figureout that one.
Speaker 2 (43:55):
it looks like schmoochie s-c-h-m-o-o-k-e and
that's how I pronounced it, butI also asked if I got it right
but we have.
Speaker 3 (44:04):
I'll post videos of our baby goats um as well.
So it's leadership, mindfulness, stoicism, stuff, and then also
fun videos of goats andchickens and hopefully a little
bit of mindful, mindful kitchen.
Speaker 2 (44:14):
Yes, there is um, there is a little bit of that
mindful kitchen?
Speaker 3 (44:16):
Yes, there is.
There is a little bit of a.
You'll see some deliciouspictures of things.
Speaker 2 (44:23):
Well, Becky, let's, let's find a date for sometime
in the fall.
I love talking to you and Iappreciate your time.
Speaker 3 (44:32):
Thank you very much.
Steve Did not say, sir, I wantto say one.
Speaker 2 (44:37):
So you didn't tell me asshole once.
That's good, thank you.
Speaker 3 (44:40):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
Please like, subscribe and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful and, as a reminder, this
podcast is for informational,educational and entertainment
purposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(45:06):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
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